[Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control) [Archive]

(nameless one)

06-20-2012, 12:08 AM

PARFAIT

Parfait - par·fait (pär-f)
n.
1. A dessert made of cream, eggs, sugar, and flavoring frozen together and served in a tall glass.
2. A dessert made of several layers of different flavors of ice cream or ices, variously garnished and served in a tall glass.

Introduction

Parfait is a white-based control deck that utilizes sLand Tax[/CARDs] to gain card advantage in junction with Scroll Rack to turn that advantage into quality. Scroll Rack also benefits from Land Tax's shuffle effect to shuffle away unneeded cards that are "scrolled" back to the library.

Extended Context

The first known successful iteration of a Tax/Rack deck was piloted by Randy Buehler (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/HallOfFame.aspx?x=mtgevent/hofplayer/rbuehler) in the form of White Weenie with the said draw engine:

1 Kjeldoran Outpost
8 Plains
4 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland

2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Savannah Lions
4 Soltari Priest
4 White Knight

3 Disenchant
2 Firestorm
4 Land Tax
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tithe

Sideboard:
3 Aura of Silence
1 Disenchant
2 Gaea's Blessing
2 Honorable Passage
3 Pyroblast
2 Sand Golem
2 Suleiman's Legacy

The low mana curve of White Weenie was perfect with Land Tax as the deck can run with minimal lands on the field. With low land count, Land Tax can be kept active while the opponent keeps playing land so it can cast answers to the Weenie threat. The deck soon became an Extended powerhouse.

Classic Control

Following Tax/Rack Success in Extended, few players tried porting the deck to Type 1. The lists turned from aggro to aggro-control to control. The first known iteration of a control-based Tax/Rack was published by Darren di Batista, featuring a list created by Raphael Caron and Parfait as we know it was born:

Drawing Engine:
4x Land Tax
2x Scroll Rack
1x Jayemdae Tome

Survival Spells/Silver Bullets:
1x Story Circle
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Aura of Silence
1x Moat
1x Balance
1x Wrath of God
2x Zuran Orb
1x Ivory Mask
1x Ivory Tower

Utility Spells:
4x Abeyance
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Planar Birth
4x Argivian Find

Kill:
2x Sacred Mesa
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Soldevi Digger

Mana Source & Lands:
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Serra's Sanctum
13x Plains
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland

1x Lotus Petal
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Diamond
1x Sol Ring

Instead of the aggro-base with a draw engine, Parfait used the Tax/Rack engine to efficiently find answer spells or silver bullets that were effective against the meta of its time. The name Parfait came from the word French word parfait (http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/parfait) which means perfect.

The Perfect Mix

The original Parfait decks had components that can deal with early, mid and late game.

For the early game, it had answers in the form of cheap and efficient removal and life gain. The removal is self-explanatory. The life gain is there so that the deck can stabilize for the mid and late games.

As the deck stabilize, the mid game of the deck revolves around finding silver bullets against opposing decks either by using the Tax/Rack engine or using Enlightened Tutor. Once the opponent has been effectively controlled, the deck can set up for the late game into a win.

The deck utilizes a comboesque win, using Planar Birth to recur discarded Plains (discarded through the clean up step with extra cards in hand) to power up Sacred Mesa. Parfait was one of the first control decks to have a "I win" button.

Caught in the Split

Back in its time, Tax/Rack was considered one of the best card advantage engine (it didn't just drew cards, it also had a built in card selection). It was considered so powerful that when the Type 1- Type 1.5 split happened (birth of the Legacy format), the combo had to be neutered in the "powerless" format. With this reasoning, Land Tax was banned in Legacy for almost a decade.

Eventually, the power level of the format increased and more two card combos started showing up. This created discussions and arguments on the validity of Land Tax in the format. The DCI finally showed leniency on the card and on June 20, 2012; Land Tax finally became Legacy legal. Now the quest to find the right deck for Land Tax begins.

A lot of players tried adding Land Tax to existing lists such as U/W Miracle Decks (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_uw_miracle_tax_with_.html). In the end, it did not work out since the requirements to 'break' Land Tax cannot simply be met in a mana hungry deck. To make things worse, the format has become more efficient on spending its mana. With decks that can run and win on 0-2 lands. To make Land Tax work in the format, the list has to be built around the card. Here is where Parfait comes in.

In with the Old

In order to port the old Parfait lists to the current Legacy meta, we have to compare the before and now. Here are the notable changes from the old to the current:

Aggro creatures becoming more efficient in terms of effect/power vs. mana cost.
The prevalence of utility creatures.
The dependence (and abuse) of graveyards.
The birth of Storm.
The advent of Planeswalkers.
Multitude of two-card, game ending combos (both win and lock)
Cheap and efficient removal

With the knowledge above and the principles of Parfait, it can then be determined on how to shape a new Parfait list.

Parfait Revival

Parfait is a [control] deck that revolves around an engine. In order for it to work, it has to be built around the engine. But in order for it to be successful, it has to work without the engine.

First the engine of the deck:

Land Tax + Scroll Rack

These cards are the reason why Parfait is Parfait.

Like any engine decks, Parfait needs to be built around to break symmetry and to make it efficient. The old lists achieved this by utilizing the following:

Run cheap game changing spells (usually in the form of removal).
Use means to reduce land count to fewer than your opponent.
Use mana resistors to force your opponent to play more lands than you (and to slow them).
Use cheap artifact mana sources.

In order for the archetype to be successful, it also needs to work without having Tax/Rack active. This was achieved by using [CARD]Enlightened Tutor (not only to find Tax/Rack pieces but also to find hate pieces). Cards that have X-for-one effects were also used to maximize each use of the cards (such as Wrath of God). Scroll Rack can also be used to fix consistency

Primer

The old Parfait lists followed a certain shell:

Draw Engine (Tax/Rack & Back up) [7-9]: This is where Land Tax and Scroll Rack go in. Back in its Type 1 days, Jayemdae Tome and Library of Alexandria would be used as back up. But with the current card selection Legacy has right now, there are better option that are also legal in the format; Sensei's Divining Top comes to mind.

Swords to Plowshares [4]: This has been a staple removal in Classic formats, although Path to Exile could be an alternative depending on how the list is tackled.

Silver Bullets [8-10]: They are cards/permanents that nullify different strategies, whether it be against creatures (Humility/Moat), graveyard strategies (Rest in Peace), spell-based (Trinisphere) among other things

Tutor/Utility [8-10]: Tutor refers to Enlightened Tutor (although they used to be restricted in Type 1.). Utility refers to non-permanent spells (the ones you cannot tutor for) that help and support either the Tax/Rack engine or compliments to the silver bullets.

Win Condition [3-5]: Every deck needs to win a legitimate way. These only have a few slots due to the comboesque win conditions used by Parfait.

Mana Artifacts [5-8]: They reduce the dependence to lands as a means of mana source. This means that Land Tax can be kept active.

Lands [18-20] (Plains [10-15]): They are still an essential mana source but they can also be used for utility.

The problem with the count between mana artifact and lands is that the Alpha Moxen are banned in the format. Finding the right proportion between the two is currently open for discussion.

Here are a couple of sample lists that can be used as guidelines for building the decks. Most of these are theoretical lists before Land Tax was actually Legacy legal:

Stephen Menendian's Stax-like build (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19052-So-Many-Insane-Plays-Six-Cards-To-Unban-In-Legacy.html)

Lands:
11 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Wasteland

Spells:
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack
1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
1 Humility
4 Land Tax
1 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law
1 Sacred Mesa
4 Abeyance
3 Argivian Find
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares

Stephen Menendian's Suggested List Post Unbanning Circa June 2012 (http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2873)

Mana Sources:
4 Mox Diamond
15 Plains
4 Wasteland

Spells:
4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Solitary Confinement
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile/Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Batterskull
3 Argivian Find
3 Orim’s Chant

Hatebear-Based Parfait:

Lands:
10 Plains
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Wasteland

Creatures:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Glowrider
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Aven Mindcensor

Spells:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

(nameless one's) Parfait Revival (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9262959&postcount=122):

10 Snow-Covered Plains
4 City of Traitors
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Lotus Vale

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Pithing Needle
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
4 Land Tax

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Terminus

Sideboard:
4xLeyline of Sanctity
4x Trinisphere
3x Aura of Silence
2x Ghostly Prison
2x Karmic Justice

Selecting the 75

To be continued...

Piloting Parfait

To be continued...

Splashes and Flavors

Here is an excerpt from Stephen Menendian's article concerning splashes: (http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2873)

BLUE

Brainstorm
Brainstorm has natural synergy with Land Tax. The problem with Brainstorm is mana cost. You are going to be knee deep in Blue if you are relying on early Brainstorms. That means your manabase probably has some strange combinations of plains and islands, and perhaps a few fetchlands, and perhaps even a Tundra or two. The awkwardness stems from potentially needing to play both a first turn Land Tax and possibly Brainstorming early, yet having mostly basic lands. The longer the game goes the more value can be extracted from Brainstorm (shuffling away extra lands and digging deeper into an already thinned deck), so keep that in mind when analyzing opening hands and lines of play.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor
If Brainstorm has strong synergy with Land Tax, certainly Jace does as well. It has direct synergy with Land Tax, a pseudo Scroll Rack. Jace is a natural finisher for a control deck of this caliber, and also has the ability of controlling creatures on the battlefield.

Daze
As my teammate Kevin Cron pointed out, Daze is insane with Land Tax, since it works like Zuran Orb, to return the land you already played to hand to guarantee Land Tax triggers.

RED

Blood Moon
Blood Moon is an excellent Tutor target, and highly synergistic in any Land Tax deck. Blood Moon neuters fetchlands, and can singlehandedly win matchups. It is a strong consideration for any W/R Land Tax deck.

Firestorm
Firestorm is an enormously attractive option, just as it was in the Extended decks of old. It’s a great outlet for Land Tax and will clear an opposing board. This is probably a staple for any W/R Aggro deck revival.

Seismic Assault
Fool’s gold in my opinion. Not only is it too difficult to reliably cast, but it’s a poor use of your card advantage compared to putting back into your deck with Scroll Rack or Jace/Brainstorm.

Matchups

To be continued...

Outside Information

Here are some articles concerning Parfait:

Type One Gold: Deck Parfait (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/161_Type_One_Gold_Deck_Parfait.html)
So Many Insane Plays – The Parameters of Land Tax in Legacy (http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2873)
Experiment Parfait (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=227213)
Legacy Parfait Challenge (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20487-The-Legacy-Parfait-Challenge&p=535533#post535533)
Parfait Discussion @ MTG Salvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=425393)

(nameless one)

06-20-2012, 12:09 AM

This is an outdated source. For reference only

Personal List and Explanations:

Manabase:

10 Snow-Covered Plains
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
3 Chrome Mox

Parfait Engine:

4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Argivian Find
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Zuran Orb

Control Elements:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Trinisphere
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Terminus
1 Humility
1 Smokestack

Win Conditions:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Batterskull
1 Goblin Charbelcher

Manabase:

Snow-Covered Plains: I was going to use good old Plains but it is Parfait! Has to be frozen. Although regular Plains are just as fine.

City of Traitors : For the longest time, I was using Crystal Veins over this but with the inclusion of Trinisphere in the list, I need to consistently cast my cheaper spells under an active Trinisphere and City of Traitors isn't just a one time use only land. Although I am still contemplating on using 3/3 split between City of Traitors and Crystal Veins.

Wasteland: They get rid of utility lands and lands that will produce more than one mana for the opponent. They're also there to color-screw the opponent. The existence of Crucible in the deck can catch the opponents off guard.

Mox Diamond + Chrome Mox: They somehow help Land Tax trigger by lowering your land count on the field. While theres card disadvantage involved in using these, the Tax/Rack engine helps replenish your hand back.

Parfait Engine:

Land Tax + Scroll Rack: The engine of the deck. Under the right circumstances, you can dig through your library with these.

Enlightened Tutor: Not only they can find Land Tax or Scroll Rack, it can also find enablers for the deck and board control pieces.

Argivian Find: Either your draw engine pieces or board control pieces are bound to be countered or destroyed. These will get those pieces back.

Crucible of Worlds: It has a couple synergies with the cards that you have in the deck. It can replay City of Traitors, Wastelands, or lands that used for Zuran Orb or Smokestacks.

Zuran Orb: Its a good piece that can screw up the combat math. It also helps enable Land Tax.

Control Elements:

Swords to Plowshares: The debate was using this vs. Path to Exile. While Path to Exile helped trigger Land Tax, it also help your opponents work under taxing effects such as Ghostly Prison, Trinisphere and Smokestacks. In the end, I think Swords to Plowshares is still better than Path to Exile in Land Tax builds because if your opponents cannot recover from the mentioned taxing effects, you are still good and ahead of the game.

Trinisphere: It slows the opponents down and helps enable Land Tax (along with Moxen and Sol Lands) by forcing the opponent to play more lands. It is also a great tool against ritual-based combo and decks that run on minimal lands (such as Elves and Tempo-based decks)

Ghostly Prison: It slows swarm-based aggro decks and helps enable Land Tax by forcing your opponents to play more lands.

Terminus: Once the opponent overextended, Terminus is a bomb against your opponent's field. It is essentially the Balance the deck needs. It is also fairly easy to set up its Miracle cost because of Scroll Rack

Humility: This card can shut down a lot of utility and giant creatures in the format. It is also great that its tutorable.

Smokestack: This card helps turn whatever soft lock you've established into hard lock while at the same time enabling Land Tax (by sacrificing your own lands)

Win Condition:

Stoneforge Mystic: This can cheat a Batterskull onto the field. At worst, its a blocker that can reset your Scroll Rack.

Batterskull: For :1::w: (via SFM), its a great beater. It also works great under an active Humility.

Goblin Charbelcher: Its a great late game finisher, when your deck is running low on lands. At worst, it can reset Scroll Rack.

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Cursed Totem
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Aura of Silence

Cards that need to be addressed:

Solitary Confinement
Tangle Wire
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

(nameless one)

06-20-2012, 12:13 AM

Older post:

Parfait

Parfait is a mono-white control deck that uses the Land Tax + Scroll Rack combo. As long as you had less lands than your opponent, you are able to search your library and refill your hand with three basic lands. You would then activate Scroll Rack to replace those lands with useful card in your hand.

When the original Legacy (then type 1.5) ban list was released, Land Tax was one of the cards that got the hammer due to its brokenness with Scroll Rack. Over time, more better and effiencient cards got printed and Land Tax eventually turned from Broken to a laughing matter. Even though all this turn of events happened, Land Tax did not leave the ban list. Instead the apparent reason why it was banned is because it stalled games.

There has been a lot of speculations with the unbanning of Land Tax. It especially goes up everytime right before any updates on the B/R list. MTG Salvation is currently allowing a MWS Legacy tournament that allows players to run Land Tax. I myself would like to have my own take on Parfait for another Legacy tournament within my area that will be allowing Land Tax.

Recently, I have been playtesting this decklist, although not thoroughly. It has been working so far but far from being a deck to beat.

Here is my currently decklist:

Legacy Parfait 1.0

Lands:
13 Plains
3 Ghost Quarters
2 Serra Sanctum

Parfait Engine and Searchers:
4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor

Toolbox:
4 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance
2 Isochron Scepter

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Solitary Confinement

1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgement
1 Cataclysm
1 Agrivian Find

2 Zuran Orb
1 Pithing Needle

Win Condition:
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Painter's Servant
1 Grindstone
1 Goblin Charbelcher

Sideboard:
Still working on it

Currently the decklist clocks at 62 cards but I am still working on trimming it.

I find that when I am playing Parfait in Legacy, you have to be a passive deck. It basically answers what your opponent throws. You don't really have to build the Parfait engine right away. Instead, try to set it up mid to late game. You have SDTs to help you early game. Mid-game, you will run out of gas, this is when you're going to utilize the Parfait Engine and try to either lock your opponent or combo-win (depending on the situation)

Here are the main combo lockdowns that the deck utilizes:

Scepter-Lock (Isochron Scepter + Orim's Chant): This essentially prevents your opponent from casting any spells and attacking with their creatures. It works by coping Chant via Scepter over and over again until you get enough mana and find your win condition.

Confinement-Lock (Solitary Confinement): This lock is more conditional as it requires the Parfait Engine. This is more like an add-on to your Engine. It works by utilizing the card advantage gained from Parfait Engine to fuel Solitary Confinement's drawback. Although it is not a permanent lock as Scepter-Lock, you can still utilize this to buy you time to set up your win conditions. It could also work with Land Tax alone but it will only protect you until you run out of lands from your library.

Here are the win conditions of the deck:

Luminarch Ascension: Luminarch is really effective once you've set up a lock to your opponent. However, it is not as threatening by itself.

Painter-Stone Combo (Painter's Servant + Grindstone): If you are in a hurry and have a way to Tutor them, you can always win with this.

Goblin Charbelcher: This is your late game win condition, when you have went through with most of your lands. It could also act as a conditional removal.

Other Card Choices:

This deck is an idea and some of my choices need justification:

Lands:

Plains: No need to explain

Ghost Quarter: This is your Wasteland. You might say its suboptimal but the main goal is to keep your opponent from their utility land, whether if its a man-land or a dual land. It is essentially a Wasteland but you want your opponent to have a higher land count as your to have Parfait Engine going. Whether your opponent decides to replace the destroyed land, its a win-win condition for you.

Serra Sanctum: You run ample amounts of enchantment. I dont see whats wrong with a land that produces a lot of mana.

Toolbox:

Sensei's Divining Top: Like what I mentioned above, you Parfait is only good mid to late game. SDT is your helper early game. It helps you draw essential cards that you need to get by early game.

Enlightened Tutor: If you need a silver bullet really bad, Tutor is there to bail you out. It could grab anything from combo-pieces to essential answers.

Path to Exile: PtE rivals StP in this deck as this creature removal is made for this deck. PtE virtually doesnt have a drawback with this deck.

Swords to Plowshares: For the most part, this is the best creature removal in the format. Having it to back up PtE does not hurt.

Orim's Chant: Legacy's version of Time Walk. I currently play Quinn and I find this card to buy you time early game. It also creates a lock when paired with Scepter.

Abeyance: This card is there to push through your counter. It also act as pseudo-disruption to certain decks. At worst, it cantrips for :1::w:

Isochron Scepter: Pair this with Chant and you have Scepter-lock. Pair this with one of your removals and you have a beating stick.

Humility: Humility is one of those underrated cards out there. It shuts down a lot of creatures in a creature format. It also stops Qasali Pridemages and Trygon Predators from ruining your day. Makes Tarmogoyf an $80 1/1 for :1::g:

Oblivion Ring: Tutorable utility removal.

Runed Halo: Its a pseudo-removal that protects you from a lot of dangerous things in the format. It can protect you from Goyfs to Tendrils

Wrath of God: Mass creature removal

Day of Judgement: Wrath of God 2.0. Sometimes, variety is good.

Cataclysm: I recently added this mass removal as a Balance version. It has been okay so far. I am still undecided. It helps stabilize the field when things are not going your way.

Agrivian Find: This deck runs a lot of singleton (because of its toolbox nature). Sometimes, you might need to recycle an enchantment or an artifact to win.

Zuran Orb: This helps you keep your land count in check. It can also act as life gain against aggro.

Pithing Needle: I have been debating a lot lately with this card. It is an awesome card as it shuts down anything from Vials to Survivals. If you dont need SDT anymore, you can shut down SDT to help you go through against CounterTop.

Recent Suggestions/Possible Inclusion:

Mox Diamond: Keeping your land count low is good. Mox D helps you with mana without going up on your land count. The problem that I have faced so far is that my deck's land count is too low to support Mox Diamond. Land Tax sometimes help but Mox Diamond itself is not consistent. Also, getting them removed is a hard pull-back.

Chrome Mox: I am running a lot of singletons and exiling a card for C Mox is a real hard decision.

So far, both have been unhelpful. Maybe I just dont know how to utilize Mox D properly but without Mox D, it has been working fine.

Moat: This card is more of a meta call. I have been seeing a lot of Qasali Pridemages and Trygon Predators and Humility has been the better call lately. If the meta's aggro has been without the mentioned two then I suggest running Moat.

Sacred Mesa: Originally, I was running this with Ascension's spot but I found that its more mana-intesive compared to Ascension. The ":1::w:" upkeep also hurts in a deck that runs a low land count.

Planar Birth: Vintage Parfait used to run this to return lands that have been sacrificed via Zuran Orbs. I have not really playtested with it and I dont see any help that it could provide.

Wheel of Sun and Moon: This card is more of a sideboard card as a gravehate. I like the of using this to keep Confinement lock an infinite hard lock but it feels like a win-more condition.

Ethersworn Canonist: This card has been on the main of Vintage lists. Vintage has a different meta to Legacy and not everyone will be running a storm based combo deck. This card is more of a sideboard card.

Splashes:

There has been a lot of suggestions concerning splashes. Having a splash does add more tools to the deck. The main problem that I see against splashes is that we already have a lot of little things going on. Having additional splash could result to a lot of micro-managing which will make the deck less effective. I'd like to keep a particular focus on the deck. Having said that doesn't mean that I am closing my mind on any splashes.

Thank you for useful advises and as well as constructive criticism. Other suggestions are still open.

UPDATE

With the recent rumor of Land Tax being a Judge Promo, there has been recent speculations that it will get reintroduced to Legacy. I decided to try to work with this deck again. It cant hurt to be prepared, right?

Here is the current version I have been testing:

Legacy Parfait 2.0

Lands:
11 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Ghost Quarters
1 Serra Sanctum

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
2 Zuran Orb

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance

2 Isochron Scepter

3 Sands of Time
2 Equipoise
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Rule of Law
1 Solitary Confinement

6 Open Slots

Changes and Discussions

Mana Base

There are now 19 lands in the deck

Ancient Tomb - Ancient Tomb helps accelerate whatever pieces the deck is trying to play. At the same time, it helps with the lower land count but producing 2 mana from one source.

Ghost Quarters - I was contemplating on running Wasteland on this spot but I think the main purpose of Ghost Quarters is to deny your opponent from having utility land such as manlands without lowering his land count.

Mox Diamond - I dont think a build with only 19 lands can support Mox Diamond. I also think having a higher artifact count does not help the new additions to the deck.

Spells:

Swords to Plowshares - I have switched Path to Exile with StP because Path to Exile was not as effective as I though it would be.

Sands of Time + Equipoise - The new addition to the deck. It is essentially a two-card lockdown combo (kinda like Scepter-Chant lock). With the deck's low land count and 0 creature card, both card can produce a permanent Balance effect. However, with this combo, The artifact count must be minimal, hence the lack of Mana Artifacts.

Sands of Time also synergizes with the low land count. You can use your lands during your turn to play permanents and use those same lands during your opponent's turn to play control cards, or even use Scepter. This is the reason why Sands of Time has a higher count than Equipose.

Open Slots:

There are currently 6 open slots right now. They are reserved for win conditions and other tools that can be utilized in this deck. My current win condition right now is Goblin Charbelcher but I dont think that that itself is enough. This deck should have a back-up win condition (possibly a Black Vise effect since its a lockdown deck)

Also, I think that other means of control should be used. I am thinking of using Humility, Runed Halo, Oblivion Ring, Wrath of God, or whatever would fit in the deck.

As usual, any ideas and constructive comments are welcome.

rxavage

06-20-2012, 12:14 AM

Just grabbed a nm legends playset for 70$

(nameless one)

06-20-2012, 09:26 AM

I somehow updated the opening post for a quick intro to the deck concept.

klaus

06-20-2012, 09:40 AM

I don't like Belcher as a wincon since it's way too situational. I'm not sure about Runed Halo either - could be a tutorable 1of, I guess.
With Scroll Rack, wouldn't white Miracles be a feasible choice?
Also 4 Mox Diamonds should be a given in this deck.

(nameless one)

06-20-2012, 09:54 AM

I have been playtesting this list and it brings me back to the good old days:

Parfait

Manabase:
12x Plains
4x Crystal Vein
3x Mox Diamond
3x Wasteland
1x Mistveil Plains

Engine:
4x Land Tax
3x Scroll Rack
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Zuran Orb

Support:
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Orim's Chant
4x Path to Exile
3x Terminus
2x Argivian Find
2x Armageddon
2x Ghostly Prison
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Humility
1x Pithing Needle
1x Solitary Confinement

Win Condition:
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Goblin Charbelcher

klaus

06-20-2012, 11:27 AM

No offense, but I'm positive a blue splash would be beneficial --> excess lands --> BS.
Jace seems like a tight wincon too.

Antonius

06-20-2012, 03:00 PM

No entreat the angels? That is a windmill slam of a win con. Also, no swords? Geez, I know path has more internal synergy with the deck, but I would run both. they're so damn good. IMO, 4 swords, 4 path, 3-4 terminus is where you should start. Banishing stroke could be run on top of that. Ghostly prison could go as it's a nonbo with path. I'm not hot on enlightened tutor, either. Humility seems like the only enchantment I'd ever truly feel good about dumping a card for. All the others have their uses but have more or less been dated by Qasali Pridemage. I don't think you need four enlightened tutors. Orim's chant? wouldn't you be better just playing more business?

@Klaus: yeah , brainstorm is sick, but if you were to run another color I think black would be the best. Blue tends to be a mana hog. This deck wants to play with as few lands as possible. All of black's disruption and removal is cheap ie: hymn, thoughtseize, innocent blood, duress, raven's crime.

mordraid

06-20-2012, 03:22 PM

@Klaus: yeah , brainstorm is sick, but if you were to run another color I think black would be the best. Blue tends to be a mana hog. This deck wants to play with as few lands as possible. All of black's disruption and removal is cheap ie: hymn, thoughtseize, innocent blood, duress, raven's crime.

Yeah, and since it's playing many 1-of, the deck could even include some tainted pact like the old tainted parfait did.

dahcmai

06-20-2012, 05:34 PM

Well, I think I'll stick with this thread for the Land Tax builds. I have a thing for Parfait. I loved that deck and played the crap out of it despite my love of it's nemesis, the Bazaar Reanimator.

Anyway, I already had a deck I played around with trying to get it to work over and over. If there was any card I complained about not having for it, it was Land Tax. So here's the original with it added in.

It's had the crap played out of it so questions are welcome. I think I played against just about everything except Delver because that deck didn't exist yet when I last had this thing out. (Innistrad wasn't out). The last set was Scars since I was playing around with Koth in it.

2 Koth
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Ajani Vengeant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
3 Rolling Earthquake
2 Humility
2 Banefire
4 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's DiviningTop
1 Decree of Justice
4 Arid Mesa
3 Flooded Strand
4 Land Tax
4 Plateau
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
3 Plains
3 Mountain

Ok, now this list just had Land Tax thrown in the obvious spots I knew I would eventually replace it with. Now the question becomes where do I put the Scroll Racks in at? Top is quite excellent in here and is worth keeping to some extent. I expect to take them down to 2 and Lightning Helix down to 2 as they would be the weakest removal at that point and Tops need to be cut if Scroll Racks come in. I will probably cut back on the amount of fetches and go down to 3 Plateaus also, using basics in the spots. Keep that in mind since I haven't tested it with tax in the deck yet.

The original deck could mangle anything with creatures including variants of Threshold like Canadian thresh so I have high hopes for Delver. Zoo, Stoneforge, Maverick, Goblins, Merfolk, and elves all just fell over dead to this thing as it was.

Control decks were tricky, but beatable. BUG control was the worst one since they had their own Mishras, Jace, and the ability to counter the planeswalkers better than most decks. I still ended up going to time a lot with them with 1 and 1. It's a matter of do they have a counter for the planeswalkers. If not, they lose, if they do, they stay alive for a while. Decking was the common way for them to win against this. Scroll Rack can help with that too. : ) Man, I'm happy about Tax.

Ok, Combo seems like it would suck and game one it most definitely does. The entire board was to hose them out and win via planeswalker. It's practically a transformational sideboard for it. It did work though. I was more worried about control since it was such a toss up. It seems like a terrible idea, but sometimes those work like a charm. This is one of those times. It's a nightmare to go through that mess after boarding.

Ok, some explanation of the other cards is probably necessary.

Koth - Seems horrible, actually isn't. It's a must counter for any control deck as usual just like in standard. But wait, you hardly have any mountains. Yeah, but you don't need much. It's that 4/4 making ability that is the dangerous one anyway. Admittedly, I did use the second one here and there to bomb people out though.

He does make 4/4's under a Humility. If you don't know how, you probably shouldn't be playing with Humility anyway. With Koth and Elspeth together, it's hard to lose against much of anything.

Path to exile - self explanatory, but now it has a cool interaction with our new card.

Ajani Vengeant - Another must counter for a lot of decks. Tends to get used to blow up Zoo creatures or tap down fatties like Knights and goyfs a lot. Very handy. One sided geddon is just a bonus.

Rolling Earthquake - Sadly expensive as hell, but really, really good. Makes people frown. You could replace this with the newer card Bonfire of the Damned and it might even be better with all the shuffle and Scroll Rack tricks now. The direct damage which is one sided of Bonfire might justify it over the easier to cast Rolling Earthquake.

Decree of Justice - It's a hold over from the old days, but it serves it's purpose well. Uncounterable and can be a quick blow out. Decree could easily become Entreat, but probably not since it's that uncounterability that really sells it.

Pithing Needle - to be honest, I can't remember why I had this in here. I just remember having 2 and going up to 4 very quickly. It was really awesome against something. lol Jace, Vial, Sneak attack, and crap like that come to mind though.

Banefire - Might not be needed anymore. It was another one of those "pushes" through control, but tax provides a way to just out threat them now. I'm sure I can come up with something better in that slot. Especially, since I have new toys since Scars was out.

This is the old board. It's dated, but it did work for what it was intended for. pissing off combo players. I play combo (Doomsday or TES) normally so I just picked out what I would most not want to see out of a deck like this. Easy enough. Isochron might be amusing tech, but probably not needed. The pyroblasts slowed them down to a crawl and chants stopped any luck dogging out of it.

Sideboard 15

4 red elemental blast
3 pyroblast
4 pyrostatic pillar
4 orim's chant

So all in all, I highly recommend using this as a testbed since it's already proven itself to me as a damned good deck list. I got my share of money out of it so I was happy as is, but I thought it just needed Land Tax too much to continue working on it.

Now I have it.

Bonus Hilarity - Now we finally have something to make Glacial Crevasses good. Silly, but true.

novatinhu

06-28-2012, 07:39 AM

Anyone keep trying build an deck with Tax?

I'm playing whit:

// Lands
12 Plains
3 Crystal Vein
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Mistveil Plains

// Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Land Tax
3 Terminus
3 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Argivian Find
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Armageddon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Meekstone
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Argivian Find
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

rufus

06-28-2012, 11:00 AM

(nameless one)

07-02-2012, 06:57 PM

I think Land Tax / Scroll Rack isn't good enough...
[cards]Land Tax[cards] costs one card and one mana to get into play.
[cards]Scroll Rack[cards] costs one card and two mana to get into play.
Activating Scroll Rack costs another mana, so assuming you can get Land Tax to trigger, you'd be looking at:
0 activations is 3 mana for net -2 cards.
1 activations is 4 mana for net +1 cards.
2 activations is 5 mana for net +4 cards.
3 activations is 6 mana for net +7 cards.

So even with the Land Tax condition met, you'd have to get two to three activations and turns to make it worthwhile. So you've got conditionality for the land tax trigger, multiple turns for scroll rack untapping, and a pretty hefty mana investment for things to pay off.

I think using something else has more potential. For example consider:
Land Tax/Raven's Crime
Most of the time, it takes net 0 cards and 1 mana to get Raven's Crime into the gy since you can make the opponent discard.

I also expect that looting cards like Careful Study,Faithless Looting, or Ideas Unbound may be stronger companions to Land Tax than Scroll Rack is.

The thing with Land Tax is that its not a shoe-in in whatever developed decks out there. It has to be the engine of the deck. That being said, it needs cards that help enable it. I believe the best way to abuse is in a prison-based deck where your opponent is forced to play more lands while you can work under mana artifacts such as Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox.

As for Looting cards, I do agree on this as well. One of the guys at the local store is suggesting that Land Tax to be run with Looting effects (or even Teferi's Puzzle Box) along with Suppression Field.

I also believe that Suppression Field is great slowing a lot of decks in Legacy. It slows Fetchlands (making them a Land Tax enabler), Planeswalkers and cards that normally help get around Land Tax (such as AEther Vial).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the actual Tax/Rack Parfait build, I ran a Parfait Build at the local store this Friday. It wasn't a big event, just a random Friday night thing. I did win enough store credit to get a Commander Pre-con (I got the Zedruu the Christmas Goat one).

Here is the list I ran:

10 Snow-Covered Plains
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
3 Chrome Mox

4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Argivian Find
1 Smokestack

3 Trinisphere
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Batterskull
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Cursed Totem
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Aura of Silence

Match one: U/R Delver

G1: I win the dice roll. I go for the turn 1 Stoneforge Mystic (Stephanie) (via a Mox that I can't remember). I didn't have Land Tax, Scroll Rack or Tutor. Stephanie gets hit by Chain Lightning. Since my opponent had Volcanic with him, I first assumed that he was on Canadian Thresh. I topdeck Scroll Rack next turn, Scroll into a Tutor for a Land Tax. But I cannot get my draw engine active since he won't play more land ( I am hoping to draw/Scroll into Trinisphere). He eventually gets a double flipped Delver of Secrets with permission backup. (I tried StP three times and a Terminus). I later then realized he was just running U/R Delver because of basic lands. Goblin Guide got there for the win.

Side: +4 Leyline, -1 Smokestack/-1 Jitte/ -2 Terminus

G2: I go for the turn 1 Scroll Rack via City of Traitors. His was a Delver. Turn 2 I Scrolled into a Swords to Plowshares which met a Daze. I later get enough mana (via City of Traitor and Moxen) to get an active Belcher. Belcher deals with Delver and resets my Scroll Rack. He then Shattering Sprees my Belcher and Rack. I then resolve a Trinisphere which met a second SSpree. I topdeck an Argivian Find and use it to get my Belcher back. I then resolved a second Trinisphere ( I had two in my hand from the previous Scroll Rack activation). I hater then resolve Belcher and deal with his Grim Lavamancer. His burn cannot race my Belcher since he is slowed by Trinisphere.

G3: I goes land go. I go for turn one L.Tax which met a Force of Will. I go for a turn 2 Stephanie which gets Lightning Bolted. I then resolved a turn 3 Scroll Rack and activate it on turn four. I main-phase tutor for Land Tax and resolve a 3sphere. I then go for a second Stephanie which grabs a Batterskull. She eats another bolt but I had enough mana off of Moxen and City of Traitors to hardcast Batterskull. Batterskull protected with Trinisphere got there.

1-0 (2-1)

Match two: CounterTop Thopter

G1: I win the dice roll but I ended up mulling to 5 after having a land-flooded 7 and a landless 6. I Tutor for Land Tax on turn one and Land Tax resolves on turn 2. Unfortunately, my opponent has a active Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top by turn 3 and by turn 5, he has a active Jace the Mind Sculptor. I scooped at that point.

Side: +3 Phyrexian Revoker/+2 Aura of Silence/ -1 Jitte/-1 Terminus/-2 Prison/-1 Humility

G2: I go for the turn one Land Tax which met a Force. His turn one was a SDTop. On my turn two I resolve a Revoker naming SDTop. I then resolve a turn 3 Stephanie grabbing Batterskull. He then scoop as he was land-screwed.

G3: I resolve a turn one 3sphere. Then for the next 8 turns, I drew into 4 lands and 2 Moxen. He eventually gets a Counterbalance by turn 3. I tried resolving a Land Tax but he blindflips a Swords to Plowshare with Counterbalance. I then resolve Stephanie but it gets StP. I though this was fine because next I can hardcast a Batterskull as he was tapped out from casting a Thopter Foundry. Then next turn, he had a second StP for the Germ token. He then had Sword of the Meek. I eventually scooped.

1-1 (3-3)

Match three: Mono-red Goblins:

G1: He wins the dice roll and goes for the turn one AEther Vial. I go for a turn 2 Stephanie. I think he is land screwed as he is not playing lands (that or someone told him I was running Land Tax and he wanted to play around it). I get a turn 3 Batterskull and Tutor for Ghostly Prison. He later scooped when I resolved a second Prison.

Side: +3 Revoker, -3 Thalia

G2: I mull to 5. His turn one Goblin Lackey connects and drops a Ringleader. On his turn 2, he drops another Lackey. I then drop a turn 3 Stephanie to grab a Jitte. He attacked and I let it go through. He then drops a Siege-gang Commander and used it to get rid of Stephanie. On turn 4 on the face of 8 goblins I topdeck a Terminus. It bought me some but his Goblin Ringleader chains into another Ringleader and a bunch of Goblins and Ringleaders eventually get there.

G3: I go for a turn one Land Tax which met a turn one Vial. I then resolve a turn 2 Rack via City of Traitors and I scrolled for useful cards. My City gets Wastelanded (he now doesn't have lands). I then go for a turn 3 Stephanie for a Batterskull. I later resolve a Revoker on his Vial. He ended up not having non-basic lands on the field (and was unable to play his hate). He tried making blockers for the Batterskull but eventually ran out and was unable to deal with Batterskull in time.

2-1 (5-4)

Match four: Dredge

G1: He wins the dice roll. He mulls to 5 then goes for a turn one Careful Study dumping a Golgari Grave-Troll into his graveyard with something else. I go Land go. He then Dredges into Ichorid and Narcomoeba. Turn two I resolve a 3sphere (via City of Traitors). He starts attacking me with Ichorid. I resolve a turn 3 Ghostly Prison which made him scoop.

Side: +3 Grafdigger's Cage/ +3 Revoker/ -4 Land Tax/ -1 Smokestack/-1 Scroll Rack

G2: He goes for a turn 1 Putrid Imp. I go for a turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage. goes for a turn 2 Nature's Claim on my Cage. On my turn two, I go for a 3sphere. He responded with discard. He dredges into crap next turn while I follow up the 3sphere with Prison and Revoker naming Imp. I then get an active Rack which dug me another Cage. He didn't scoop since he wanted to see my deck, little did he know I sided the Land Tax package out. I got there with Stephanie with Batterskull.

3-1 (6-4)

I got top8 won store credit.

--------------------------------------------
I have since updated my list with the list I've posted on the second post of this thread.

If you guys have more questions about the list above and the my new list, please feel free.

As for the Mods, can we change the thread's name into "[Deck]W/x Parfait (Land Tax/Scroll Rack Control)" please?

yespuhyren

07-18-2012, 09:20 AM

I’ve clearly gone in a very different list than the rest of you guys, but have been very successful so I’ll post my list here. This is pure control. Cards like Sands of Time, Equipoise are fun cards, but they do little to nothing and honestly can’t make the cut. Equipoise is especially bad because creatures just phase back in on their turn and can swing.

The cards that this deck still wants to fit are Crucible, Runed Halo, Porphyry Nodes, and a 2nd Humility.

Customs Tax

4x Land Tax
3x Scroll Rack
3x Isochron Scepter
2x Zuran Orb
2x Goblin Charbelcher

4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Orim’s Chant
4x Path to Exile
2x Argivian Find

4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Solitary Confinement
1x Humility
1x Moat

4x Mox Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
14x Plains

Sideboard:

1x Grafdigger’s Cage
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pithing Needle
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
1x Cursed Totem
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Humility
1x Rule of Law
1x Ethersworn Canonist

POSSIBLE COLOR SPLASHES

RED
+1 Blood Moon
+1 Mountain
-1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Plains

Blue
+1 Back to Basics
+1 Island
-1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Plains

Green
+1 Choke
+1 Forest
-1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Plains

Card Choices:

Leyline of Sanctity: You generally want this out turn 0 against half the decks in the field or more.

Hurts: Burn, Discard, Storm Combo, Belcher, Jace, and Liliana’s Ultimate. Additionally, Intuition, Gifts Ungiven, and other cards that happen to say Target Opponent cannot be used.

Oblivion Ring: This is your version of Vindicate, except it doesn’t hit lands. What it does hit, however, is Emrakul. Whether brought in by show and tell or hardcast, it can do the trick against him.

Goblin Charbelcher: When you cut out all the other crap from the mana base and go with just plains, you’ll end up flying through your deck and being able to easily belch out opponents after a few taxes.

Orim’s Chant: The main combo in the deck, the goal is to accelerate out a Scepter/Chant as fast as possible. With 4x Petal/4x Diamond, it can often happen turn 1. If you have chant in hand turn 1, it is almost always correct to EOT enlightened for scepter and go for the turn 2 scepter chant.

Humility: This is the most important Silver Bullet against Reanimator, Sneak Show, and Maverick. This card just stops everything they plan on doing.

Moat: Ye old faithful. There’s a reason it was a 1 of in The Deck in 96. I wouldn’t consider playing without it

Solitary Confinement: While I still have temptation to cut it, there is just too much combo potential with it. With active Land Tax, you can last a very long time. With Scroll Rack, you’re still drawing 3 a turn and discarding 1.

With Isochron Scepter - Argivian Find, once you hit 5 mana sources you can recur and play Solitary every turn, not discarding to it and letting it die. That would let you draw your card every turn in addition to recurring Solitary.

yespuhyren

07-18-2012, 09:36 AM

(nameless one)

07-18-2012, 09:55 AM

I've tested Scepter/Chant and it's to mana intensive for Parfait.

Also, Tax/Rack doesn't go active against the half of the field (fast combo/tempo/and vial-based aggro) so you need support for to help Tax/Rack going.

I would suggest Sol Lands on top of Moxes to help hit 4cc spells.

Erdvermampfa

07-18-2012, 12:40 PM

I'm of the opinion that land tax is a shitty card and completely outdated. Just play Sensei's divining Top or add blue for Brainstorm and Jace...

yespuhyren

07-18-2012, 11:58 PM

I'm of the opinion that land tax is a shitty card and completely outdated. Just play Sensei's divining Top or add blue for Brainstorm and Jace...

So why post in this thread if you have nothing positive to say? There’s a reason this is in New/Developmental. If you want to make a netdeck go ahead, I’ve played about every conceivable deck, and this is the one I feel consistently wins for me and is fun. I went from Show and tell to w/r senseis top control to this. I'd rather draw 3 lands and a card a turn off tax.

@Nameless One RE scepter chant, I don't see how you consider it too mana intensive. Against a lot of decks it's a 2-3 mana win condition. Cheaper than both sands of time and equipoise. Scepter is used for a lot more than chant. As well, chant is an extra card vs combo, and stops sneak attack rushes and Emrakul swings.

While I'd love sol lands, my idea of this deck pulls all it's plains quickly so it can belch quickly and consistently. I'm tempted to cut 1 plains for ghostly prison or porphyry nodes as well, as nodes is much better with Argivian Finds main

That being said I do like your White/Stax’esque build, and would be happy to show you some of my other builds and test sometime. I’ve been a fan of parfait since it kicked my butt in Vintage days in 2003-5 and worked on it with local guys back then, so to play it in Legacy is awesome

K-Run

08-14-2012, 06:16 PM

Hi!

My name is Raphaël Caron and I'm the original Deck Parfait designer (you can read my old primer at http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/161_Type_One_Gold_Deck_Parfait.html). 12 years later, Parfait has fallen out of flavour in Vintage, but the unbanning of Land Tax in Legacy incited me to give it a try in this popular format.

Here's my current version, as I'm playing it in local tournaments in Quebec City.

Artifacts
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Pithing Needle
4x Mox Diamond
4x Scroll Rack
2x Wildfield Borderpost
2x Batterskull
1x Grafdigger's Cage

Enchantments
4x Land Tax
2x Humility
2x Oblivion Ring

Lands
15x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Crystal Vein
1x Mistveil Plains

Planeswalkers
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Spells
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Path to Exile
3x Noxious Revival
3x Terminus

Sideboard:
1x Rule of Law
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Moat
1x Cursed Totem
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Humility
1x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Timely Reinforcements
4x Banishing Stroke

This is a list I like very much but it's still in development.

Having read numerous Parfait threads after the unbanning of Land Tax, I decided to give some new cards a try, namely Crystal Vein and Wildfield Borderpost. I fell in love with Veins and Borderpost is actually very good, allowing me to cut Zuran Orb.

The new hotness in Parfait though is the addition of Noxious Revival over Argivian Find. Having played the card in EDH, I knew the sheer versatility would compensate largely for the payment of 2 life. Noxious Revival plays the same role as Argivian Find, with some significant bonuses:
- 0 mana cost;
- allows you to reuse ANY card;
- synergy with miracle cards;
- anti-reanimator card;
- etc.

I'm happy with the 2 Elspeth/2 Batterskull package, since those kill cards don't interact negatively with Humility, Parfait's strongest card.

I'm still considering Swords over Paths, even though Path seems superior in this build.

I'll probably drop the Moat for a Jester's Cap as well.

Questions? Comments?

(nameless one)

08-15-2012, 12:07 AM

I've been in Hiatus so I haven't really have any improvements in the deck. But here are my questions:

How do your matchup look against:

Canadian Thresh/blue-based Tempo decks - most of these decks run minimal lands. The reason why I added Trinisphere was to force them to play lands. While they have at least three lands, I can be comfortable with my Moxen and Sol Lands.

Combo that uses minimal lands - same principle as above but much faster. I feel Trinisphere helps there too.

Here are some of the things that I ran in my list that you didn't have and my justifications:

Trinisphere - it's justified above.

Chrome Mox - essentially Mox 5-8. I was running three but I was still unsure about the number. I figured that the card disadvantage can be fixed by the tax/rack engine.

Wasteland - I felt that it compliments Trinisphere in my list, as well as it helps get rid of utility lands and lands that produces more than one mana. Although with your list, I can see that it shouldn't be a problem.

Stoneforge Mystic - usually hard to beat (along with Batterskull) behind an active Trinisphere.

Goblin Charbelcher - late game all in insta-win. Having piloted Quinn (Scrying Sheets-based mono-white control), I've always wanted an insta-win situation (in Quinn's case: Painter Servant + Grindstone). In Parfait's case, in the late game, Belcher seems to do it. All in one card!

Other suggestions:

Solitary Confinement - with all that cards (and "free draw"), it seems good right?

Porphyry Nodes - Anti creature that deals with shroud (and Show and Telled creatures).

As for debates between slots:

Path to Exile vs. Swords to Plowshares - I find that while PtE helps Land Tax triggers, it also helps the opponent recover faster as they're getting a free land drop. I am still a firm believer of StP.

City of Traitors vs. Crystal Veins - while Crystal Veins can be sacrificed at will, City of Traitors stays on the field longer when you need to power 3-4cc bombs in the early game. Still undecided with this.

Anyways, it's good to hear from the original Parfait creator. I remember reading that article when I just got into Magic. Parfait wad actually one of my first casual decks before I played competitively. Hopefully more good things are in store for the deck.

As for the Revival, it's quite the tech.

Hope to hear more from you!

K-Run

08-15-2012, 12:06 PM

Nameless One:

I haven't got the chance to test my new version vs blue-based tempo a lot. I think that you simply have to play around Spell Pierce. As for fast combo, it is indeed a bad matchup pre-sideboard. I guess resolving Rule of Law is your best hope. I'll try to test more extensively those matchups and I'll let you know.

I am not a fan of Chrome Mox, as I rely on the redundancy of my cards to win. In my build, I play lots of non-colored cards as well. I'd rather play a Mox Opal, but even then, it seems too risky. Borderposts seem the appropriate compromise so far.

Wasteland and Trinisphere: I decided not to go the mana-denial way with this version. I deal with problematic lands with Pithing Needle.

Stoneforge Mystic: I'd rather not have a creature as I'm playing Humility.

Goblin Charbelcher: It's a good idea. I usually prefer to play Charbelcher when I only have basics and mountains in my deck. Should I cut one of my favorite cards of the moment, Crystal Vein, to accommodate a Belcher? This is something I have to think about.

I had Confinement in my maindeck in the first version I put together. I finally thought it was too conditionnal.

I don't like the Nodes at all. You can't play it unless there is a creature in play and you have to take a hit before it activates.

There are many ways to build a Parfait today: mana-denial through Trinisphere, Scepter lock control, combo kill with Belcher... Good luck with your own version!

(nameless one)

08-15-2012, 08:34 PM

I don't think you have to cut Veins for Belcher. I ran Belcher with Veins and Wasteland and it was fine. Worst case scenario with Belcher is that it can reset Scroll Rack or be used as a weenie removal.

As for other matchups, what matchups have you tested the deck with? I feel that in order for the deck to be 'established', it needs to beat at least two of the following: Combo, Blue-based Tempo, Blue-based Control and Aggro (we'll put Vial based and Hate-bear based together)

I also wanna add Mana Tithe

TaxMan

08-16-2012, 05:59 AM

Hi!
I used to play Parfait in Vintage for 5years and now I'm very happy to play it in Legacy.

This is my actual decklist (still under developement):
11x Plains
2x Wasteland
3x Mox Diamond
2x Chrome Mox (before there was only one plus 4th Mox Diamod, but 3rd or 4th Mox diamond in hand was not very well without active Land Tax)
4x City of Traitors (I have tested Crystal Vein too, but this is better card for Scepter lock or for eventually Trinispehre or any first turn 3 mana silver bullets...)
1x Kor Heaven (really not sure, new added, not yet tested, originally it was one more Wasteland as I don't want to cut another Plains, maybe Maze of Ith can be better, but I don't have free slot

4x Land Tax
3x Scroll Rack

2x Isochron Scepter
4x Enlightened Tutor (maybe I will cut one for one more Noxious Revival)
3x Swords to Plowshares (before 2/2 with PtE, still not sure, but I have feeling that I will come back to pure StP in deck)
1x Path to Exile
4x Orim's Chant (before 3x + 3x Mana Tithe)
2x Noxious Revival (maybe I will add one more, excellent card, thanks a lot Raphaël!)

1x Wrath of God (I will test with Terminus as Noxious Revival in main)
1x Moat
1x Humility
2x Ghostly Prison (added 2nd now, not yet tested)
1x Zuran Orb
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Story Circle (sometimes great, but sometimes too slow...)
1x Aura of Silence
1x Pithing Needle (added now, not yet tested)

1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Solitary Confinement (added new, but still not sure... I have to test)
1x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Luminarch Ascension

SIDEBOARD:
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Pithing Needle
1x Cursed Totem
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Rule of Law
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Defense Grid
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Aura of Silence
1x Powder Keg
1x Terminus

I still have big problems with UR tempo and Counter-Top :cry:
Countespells and direct damage was Nightmare for this deck... I have added now Solitay Confinement, 2nd Ghostly Prison, 1x Pithing Needle and 1x Kor Heaven, so I hope it will improve the situation, let's see...
I used to play 3x Mana Tithe which was in opening hand very good, but later it is almost dead card so I've decided to change it for 1x Orim's chant, 1x Ghostly Prison, 1x Pithing Needle. Let's see

Aggro decks (goblin/elves) are ok, as they dont have too much answer for my silver bullets

Against Combo (storm/reanimator), Grave decks and rest of the field I have to test more...

Cybey

08-16-2012, 07:04 AM

Would it be an idea to run 1 or 2 Riftstone Portals instead of Wildfield Borderpost to fix colors?

(nameless one)

08-16-2012, 10:16 AM

I still have big problems with UR tempo and Counter-Top :cry:
Countespells and direct damage was Nightmare for this deck... I have added now Solitay Confinement, 2nd Ghostly Prison, 1x Pithing Needle and 1x Kor Heaven, so I hope it will improve the situation, let's see...
I used to play 3x Mana Tithe which was in opening hand very good, but later it is almost dead card so I've decided to change it for 1x Orim's chant, 1x Ghostly Prison, 1x Pithing Needle. Let's see

Aggro decks (goblin/elves) are ok, as they dont have too much answer for my silver bullets

Against Combo (storm/reanimator), Grave decks and rest of the field I have to test more...

See, the Tempo discussion comes up again, this is why I think Trinisphere is going to be good in the deck. You can capitalize with Trinisphere with early mana artifact plays and Sol lands. It also helps against land-light decks. It also protects your key spells against cheap permission spells control has.

Against CounterTop (which happens to run lots of lands), I think surviving a Jace is the way to go. The deck can deal with it's aggro-based attack (Entreat the Angels). Pithing Needle (or Revoker) seems good against Jace or any Planeswalker/activated abilities in general.

I've been toying between Mana Tithe and Trinisphere and Trinisphere seems the better all around piece. It brings the game into mid-late where this deck thrives.

I really hope you guys look into this. I was going to participate to MTGS's Legacy tournament with Parfait but I could never have time with a PC.

Would it be an idea to run 1 or 2 Riftstone Portals instead of Wildfield Borderpost to fix colors?

It won't because the purpose of the Borderpost is to create a mana source outside of lands and to reduce your land count, something that Portal doesn't do. It doesn't necessarily be the Wildfield one, it could be Fieldmist Borderpost and it will do the same job.

I've been thinking about Borderpost and seems great especially if you're splashing (along with Mox Diamond). Although it's going to be limited to green and blue splashes.

What would these two colors offer to better the deck?

Pelikanudo

08-16-2012, 10:51 AM

Shit I wanted to make that Primer!

I'm also testing things with this...

I reach some conclusions,

The deck has so many useless cards vs the different archetypes
you need red for - Burning Wish and Blood Moon both key spells.

Burning Wish targets:
- Planar Birth
- Replenish
- Entreat
- Decree of justice
- Wrath
- terminus
- Idilic Tutor
And so many great cards, that I cannot not playing Bruniung.
I DONT play swords main and I've won to merfolks and canadian.
the idea is as we have so many useless cards, swords is one of them. the only real creature we really would like to retire is d.confidant, for the rest - humility - oblivion . moat and circle of pretection can handle this, burning is also great.

I've seen the lists in this primer and I see them as nonsense lists,
if you want you can set my list as the Primer List, other wise I prefer to keep in secret that list as that will be THE LIST

Also no runnig nedle maindeck and grafdiggers is nonsense.
Question how to win to merfolks?
Reponse: Moat + Pithing nelde to Coralheim

(nameless one)

08-16-2012, 11:29 AM

I also want to add:

On Story Circle:

Isn't this too mana intensive?

TaxMan

08-16-2012, 12:13 PM

Yes, Story Circle is mana intensive, but the colour variability is great. It will almost never lock opponent by itself, against aggresive aggro decks (especially goblins/elfes) it is too slow and needs support of Ghostly Prison. Prison itself won't lock opponent too, this two cards have good synergy. Also it helps sometimes Moat (without Humility) with Flying creatures. For me this is good support card.

yespuhyren

08-16-2012, 01:47 PM

Here’s where I’m at so far on this list. I am a big fan of the Scepter/Chant lockout.
http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr115/poolguyjason/Couscous-8.jpg

This deck doesn’t need 3-4 win conditions in addition to scepter chant. I’m down to 1 belcher. I’ve also gone with 2x Keg and 2x Relic of Progenitus maindeck for basic extra hate to cover any bases I haven’t with the rest.

Leyline of Sanctity stops Discard, Burn, Combo, Intuition, Jace, Liliana’s Ultimate, and more.

With Leylines protecting you from spells, Moat/Humility/Island Sanctuary protecting you from creatures, and Relic controlling graveyards, you should generally be able to establish control.

Couscous Parfait - Maindeck - 60
Mana Sources (22)
18x Plains
4x Mox Diamond

Instants (14)
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Path to Exile
4x Orim’s Chant
2x Argivian Find

Artifacts (11)
2x Zuran Orb
2x Isochron Scepter
3x Scroll Rack
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x Powder Keg
1x Goblin Charbelcher

Enchantments (13)
4x Land Tax
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Island Sanctuary
1x Humility
1x Moat

Sideboard - 15

Artifacts (7)
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Powder Keg
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Cursed Totem
1x Ethersworn Canonist

Enchantments (3)
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence

Just For Fun (5)
1x Circle of Protection: Black
1x Circle of Protection: Blue
1x Circle of Protection: Green
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Circle of Protection: White

Realistically, if you don’t want to screw around, go with something along the lines of

1x Nevermore
1x Pithing Needle
1x Story Circle
1x Rule of Law
1x Porphyry Nodes

Pelikanudo

08-20-2012, 04:20 PM

@TaxMan:
My list is likely the nearest to yours,
I'm now starting to add more and more City of traitors, I think what I need is to land a S.Bullet soon. (by moment 1 city 1 serras santum)

Please Try Burning Wish it is gold. and let me know, this makes you use: P. birth, terminus, entreat, replenish, and sooo many strong cards that by other hand you'll need to use 1 copy main.
Lastly I've included 1 scepter, sometimes is key,
I'm starlting to think in taking out Argivian, 3 at first , 2 ritgh now, and there is a burning target that by 2 takes both enchantment and artifact,
I've been testing 4 abeyance 3 orims configuration, abeyance is gold in this deck I can say even much better that chant, chant is an eveil when you need 1 turn to recover because of kicker, but abeyance is always good.
I really find red as the second color:
it bringsyou:
- Pryroblast from side
- burning wish
- Blood Moon

A note: I started to design the deck with NO swords and still I didn't included them even in side.

TaxMan

08-20-2012, 05:36 PM

Pelikanudo

08-20-2012, 05:58 PM

@Pelikanudo:

I don't know how it is in your area, but our metagame is very fast (pure aggro, storm, 1land belcher, ur delver). I don't think Burning wish will help me in early phase when I need it most, as it seems very slow to me. Most of the named cards I took out from main as they were not usefull/slow cards for me anymore.

I had 2x Abeyance originally in my deck, than switched for Mana Tithe. I have to think about this three (orim's chant, abeyance, mana tithe) how to manage...

This weekend I was in tournament in Vienna. Metagame fast, but not so much pure aggro: 2 storm, 2 charbelcher, 1 ur delver, 1 parfait, 1 goblins, 1 MUD, 1 maverick, 1 esper stoneblade, 1 junk, 1 rock.
I won against rock and maverick, but lost against storm and charbelcher. This decks are very good against me because of speed, discard and surgical extractions (mostly on orim's chant). Powder keg seems to be quite good as it is dangerous against lot of decks. maybe new main card?
I would like to test grindstone/servant combo as kill condition. And maybe I will try trinisphere/smokestack too.

Just thinking, maybe -4x Swords +4x terminus can be good, but this must be tested first. Terminus has very good synergy with Noxious Revival

Playing main 4 abeyances 3 orims 4 E.Tutor 1 Aura of Silence 1 Nevermore I don't expect to loose to storm Combo unless its a 1st turn win,
I'm initially a TES, DDFT Player!.

Burning does not mean its a slow card, I even think it's backwards, B.Wish is even played in 2 of the fastest (TES and Charbelcher) decks in the format, so that is not an argument to not to play it, in a deck where you have mox diamond, and city of traitors I really don't thnk its an issue as I said Burning into terminus has server to win several games.

I conceive Parfait as the opossite to combo in the way to face the victory, by the rest the focus is the same. I mean:
- Parfait is supposed to find the keys to make the opponent loose as faster as possible.
- Combo find the keys to win as faster as possible.
E.Tutor and B.Wish are likely the bests card tutors in the format.

A point:
Trinisphere do not stop 43 Lands, Blood Moon does stop 43 Lands.
These are 2 very different cards and they are not comparable.

TaxMan

08-20-2012, 06:06 PM

to Blood Moon, yes I agree, I didn't want to campare those two cards. I just wanted to say that I'm not sure which of these cards is more powerfull general in metagame...

In Vintage I used to play with red splash...

could you please paste your decklist here?

yespuhyren

08-22-2012, 12:01 AM

@Pelikanudo:
I won against rock and maverick, but lost against storm and charbelcher. This decks are very good against me because of speed, discard and surgical extractions (mostly on orim's chant). Powder keg seems to be quite good as it is dangerous against lot of decks. maybe new main card?

Now you see why I run 4x Maindeck Leyline of Sanctity instead of Abeyance or Mana Tithe. I also run 2x Powder Keg in the main, and it is ridiculous. Turn 0 Leyline means storm/belcher are on the ETW plan, and having 4x E-tutor, 2x Powder Keg, and 1x Island Sanctuary in addition to scepter chants you’re pretty set in those matches.

I like Powder Keg way better than Ratchet Bomb for the simple reason Keg @1 doesn’t hit my land taxes.

Leyline is also pretty sweet against Rock. Maverick theoretically should be one of the best matchups for this deck, and post-board you also have 2x Pithing Needle, 1x Cursed Totem, 1x Porphyry Nodes, 1x Humility and 1x Story Circle

Powder Keg is a good way to deal with Batterskull/Lingering souls tokens, Nimble Mongeese, Insectile Abberations go immediately, and recurs with Argivian Find. Combined with 4x Leyline you should be able to lock up most avenues of losing the game. I wish I could play Trading Post to recur it, but I don’t know if it is good enough. That being said, 4 life a turn or recurring kegs is not all that bad in the late game...

Trading post is absolutely awesome, but also costs 4 mana which is too bad. It’s fighting for a spot in the deck against the 4th Leyline or the Relic of Progenitus for a spot in the maindeck, with Story Circle as the likely candidate to get the boot. At the moment the Leyline is sleeved in the deck, but I’m indecisive to the point where the Trading Post IS actually sleeved up and in my deck box with my deck as the 61st card.

Finally, while I can’t play this card because I’m sticking to my all plains guns, I always loved this combo back in old 1.5 classic when I messed around with Land Tax. It’s terrible, but if anyone can make use of it I’d be highly amused :D

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=4932&type=card

lordofthepit

08-22-2012, 01:52 AM

Pelikanudo

08-22-2012, 06:10 PM

@K-Run
@TaxMan

you should start testing from at least:

4 Tax
4 E.Tutor
4 B.Wish
4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack

IMHO Must Silver Bullets:
Nedle, grafdiggers, Humilty, Moat, Story Circle, B.Moon, Aura of Silence , Never More

I absolutly read those posts, from 1999 Vintage decks.
I can recognize some additions or inclusions, I discovered the land that makes the same as Soldevi Digger, and lot of other things.

Well some points:
- I'd like to add likely more city or ghost quarter or the other land like s.digger, however I will then need anything to recoup lands. thats a parity concept.
- The scepter really shines, sometimes is key vs some decks in first games,
- Nevermore is a card that can be in side, however is the seal card vs storm and never is useless, also in conjunction with Aura and chant effects is key. But I've found that scepter can replace that role, for me is a puzzle card is this deck, K- Run must agree with me if he didn't know that card.
- I'd like to add senseis.
- I agree with Terminus is really good in here, I need to add some. with abeyance on opponents turn shines, if in yours! Maybe instead of argivian? And let Side things like that?

Personal Opinion:
The idea of the deck is to look for cards that seal the game, thats what I look for,
playing creatures has nonsense to me in this archetype.

// Lands
2 [IA] Mountain (1)
16 [7E] Plains (4)
1 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [EX] City of Traitors

// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [AL] Soldevi Digger
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [TE] Humility
4 [4E] Land Tax
1 [9E] Blood Moon
3 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
2 [WL] Argivian Find
4 [WL] Abeyance
1 [9E] Story Circle
1 [10E] Aura of Silence
4 [V10] Mox Diamond
3 [JGC] Orim's Chant
1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
1 [ISD] Nevermore
1 [CMD] Oblivion Ring
1 [FNM] Isochron Scepter

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [CFX] Banefire
SB: 1 [9E] Wrath of God
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [US] Planar Birth
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
SB: 1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 [U] Armageddon
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [DS] Ritual of Restoration
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [SHM] Mine Excavation

Well not much time

yespuhyren

08-23-2012, 04:40 PM

While I could be wrong, if going the Burning Wish route playing a Pyroclasm in the board seems strong. Too bad boiling seas costs 4 mana or it would be a great target too.

TaxMan

08-23-2012, 06:57 PM

I was in local tournament this week (2 ur delver, 2 goblin, 2 combo elves, 2storm, belcher, reanimator, stoneblade and 2 other decks) again with good result. I have tested Trinisphere. As first turn drop very good, but after first turn it was slowed-down more me than my opponents . I wanted to play my cheap spells but I could max 1spell per turn usually due to the City of Traitors. City is simply not Mishra's Workshop...

After several tournaments I identified Isochron Scepter as a key card. Scepter/chant lock is simply great.
I have tested powder keg in main too, very strong card, I will keep it in main.
I have also tested Noxious Revival over Argivian Find. Very good synergy with Terminus. Possibility of return my instant spells or lands is great, as I can easy return chant/stp/tutor back on top when scepter arrives and nothing to imprint in my hand or return terminus to clean the board. Have someone tested this card too?

I have removed last Goblin Charbelcher, Aura of Silence and one Path to Exile for 2x Terminus and 1x Solitary Confinement is back.

I would like to do some experiments now. I will try to test combo Grindstone/Servant and switch Wastelands for Mishra's Factory.
And I'm thinking about Suppression Field (it affect my deck less than Trinisphere and can slow down lots of opponents (fetch lands, creatures, sensei, planeswalkers, ...)

(nameless one)

08-23-2012, 10:14 PM

Its good to hear someone have good results with Parfait. Keep it up!

As for Trinisphere, I think it's only good after the first couple of turns when you've got Land Tax already. It would really be helpful if you have you've already got the Mox online.

I wouldn't play Trinisphere if I didn't have board presence.

As for Powder Keg, how can I forget that that card exist? Damn you Ratchet Bomb!

As for Scepter, I was quick to dismiss it (thinking that it's mana intensive). I will look into it again.

As for Solitary Confinement, it used to be great back when I ran Parfait with Kitchen Magic. But not triggering Miracle for Terminus does suck sometimes. Let us know how that goes.

As for Suppression Field, it shuts down Scroll Rack and Scepter. Although you can use Teferi's Puzzle Box as an alternative to Scroll Rack to get value of off Suppresion Field.

ReAnimator

08-23-2012, 11:42 PM

I don't really have anything constructive to add i just have to say it's insane seeing K-Run post about his deck more than a decade later. Good on you man, i remember following your progress with it all those years ago.

yespuhyren

08-24-2012, 12:11 AM

It’s good to see you on here too Oyen :D I hope I see you at a legacy event nearby!

Also, for those who want some fun pimp for the deck, in German, kicker is Bonus

http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr115/poolguyjason/Chant.jpg

Pelikanudo

08-25-2012, 01:46 PM

@K-Run
@TaxMan

I've playe a Weekend Torunament and I'd like to share my thinkgns.
I ran the wollowing list:
/ Lands
2 [IA] Mountain (1)
16 [7E] Plains (4)
1 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [EX] City of Traitors

// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [AL] Soldevi Digger
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [TE] Humility
4 [4E] Land Tax
1 Terminus ( I wanted to run 1 [9E] Blood Moon, but there wasn't any in the store!!)
3 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
2 [WL] Argivian Find
4 [WL] Abeyance
1 [9E] Story Circle
1 [10E] Aura of Silence
4 [V10] Mox Diamond
3 [JGC] Orim's Chant
1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
1 [ISD] Nevermore
1 [CMD] Oblivion Ring
1 [FNM] Isochron Scepter

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [CFX] Banefire
SB: 1 [9E] Wrath of God
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [US] Planar Birth
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [DS] Ritual of Restoration
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes

Well,

- 1st Game: Was 43 Lands with intuitions, Oblivion stone, manabond, E.E...
I won 1games even with no B.Moon.
In here Nedle and Nevermore were key cards. I locked the engine of loam naming loam even I had Ruins active.
The second game we didnt finish

- 2nd Game: Tendrils with Show and Tell and Griselbrand, It was no TES and no ANT.
First game was:
Hand of: Mox diamond E.Turot, Story circle B.Wish Land LAnd LAnd Tax

the game was resolved in to: I had Scroll Rack In play 2 mana open, he duress my Circle, !!, the he resolves Show and T, me in resp E.Turot to Humility change Rack Win! he put Griselbrand, next I resoved Moaat and again Nevermore To tenderils and conceded
2nd game was land Lands Tax and 2 Pyroblast + Orims. I simply didnt reache the Mountains nenough early, what was a think I have to think related to the use of enough red sources.
3rd game was resolved into a Silence in reponse to a 2nd D.Ritual, because he wanted to play griselbrand, he FoWs my Abeyance , I beyance him again, he become sad and pass turn, and he noticed (I knew) abeyance lets creatures so, as it was store torunament I concede.
Lost but could have won , this deck is suposed to go perfect vs TES and ANT but not as welll vs Showand Tell Tendrils Griselbrand becauase of mainly LED card.

3rd Game Miracles:
Well I knew it was a difficlut match up. and it wasnt, it was so easy to my oponnent... I conceded both games.
we havent responses to c.balance online, we do not put pressure and he will counter the stuff thath is annoying but what happnes is that we do not have any,
So because in my meta its infected by miracles i need some solution.
Well on first game he resolves soon a Jace as I dont put pressure and I Oblivion it, but next on 5th turn he plays balance with 7 cardsin hand and its game,
On second game was the same. shit.
So I need to make this deck good vs miracles.
II'll let you know my changes.

4th game Maverick
In here I locked with isochorn + chant, easy.
In 2nd I made a mistake not leaving terminus in side, its fantastic this card, I would have made - burning into terminus, change with s.rack sacrifice land to not to die, abeyance and terminus, next land tax ability. !!
3rd game I would have won I locked him with moat nevermore to krosan, humility,

Conslucsions:
- The decks is slow as hell, I ddidnt win a game my opponents conceded me. so I understand that I need something to win quick in a way.
- I have no options vs miracle, need to change things in the deck
- Soldevi digger was useless all time, people often lookjed at that card as nobody knew what it does...,
- Argivian were also useless, I don't think theyre neede even with B.Wish to -> Restoration Or Replenish. The idea is that I'd like to have artifacts or encantments that make any ability destroying b¡y itselfs so that makes argivian better, but I haven't so it 's only usefull if they counter anything, therefore I'm think9ng seriosly to put in these slots Pyroblast main.
- Terminus is a great card. I want to make space main.
- B.Wish targets were mainly to -> Idillyc tutor, Terminus, Restoration Ritual.
- I found Decree useless also, as most of the time s you lock with humility and Moat vs creatures, so I'm thinking seriously in Charbelcher main, if the idea around this is: you can win only with tax only + charbelcher.
- Important Note: I notice I had no respiknse vs Teeg. so I'll put something in side for B.Wish, any Idea? I need also anything that works vs mother + gaddock. Pyroclasm for example doesn t work. Please help in here!

Questions:
- Have you played Charbelcher Main? how is that good? I'm seriosly thinkin in including main, I will need to win some day a game with this deck!
- I ve been thikning in painters - grisdtone, and even that way will make my pyroblasts better, but I find again that painter is a creature and is not ok with humility.
- Does the Opalescence option can be ok? does it work with moat humility?
- Do you know guys any other idea regarding Win Con, ajani elspeth? Too slow.
- Well my main problem is Miracles countertop, so options are:
1. Prytoblasts main.
2. more Aura of silnce maybe?
3. The artifact that costs 2 and you put counters and can destroy even jace OR E.Explosives?
4. Do you have any other idea?
- Can anybody tell me the utlity of Soldevi digger? does this card worth? K-Run could you give me an anwer in here.

So definately changes in my mind are:
- 1 Abeyance
- 2 A.Find
- 1 S.Digger
- 2 Plains
=
+ 3 Pyroblasts
+ 1 Charbelcher
+ 2 Mountains.

Also I will take from side Decree and put more Terminus and more Pyroblasts/Hydroblasts.

Please let me know your opoinions!

yespuhyren

08-25-2012, 03:49 PM

Belcher is amazing. It’s the only card I have that kills my opponent, and I play 1. Never had an issue with 2x Argivian Find maindeck either. Soldevi digger is awful. It was a kill card to stop you from decking back in the day. It’s horribly outdated, you can just cut that straight up for belcher.

Blood moon is necessary if you’re playing Red. I’m not sure why there is so much disinterest in the scepter/chant combo, but I’m totally unimpressed by abeyance and have cut it completely. I’d rather just have Leylines to stop their plans. I have no problem scroll racking away extras.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-25-2012, 04:35 PM

I'm pretty sure that this deck fundamentally doesn't work.

I'm also pretty sure, however, that there's exactly one card that makes Land Tax almost worth playing and that ought to be a pre-requisite for the archetype and that I haven't seen at all thusfar;

Extraplanar Lens

The card has massive synergies with Land Tax in that it allows you to activate the card while not missing out on your mana development.

For my money;

18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets

4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Argivian Find

3 Extraplanar Lens

4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal

2 Sacred mesa
1 Batterskull
2 Goblin Charbelcher

(nameless one)

08-26-2012, 01:43 AM

Conslucsions:
- The decks is slow as hell, I ddidnt win a game my opponents conceded me. so I understand that I need something to win quick in a way.
I think Goblin Charbelcher is your answer.

- I have no options vs miracle, need to change things in the deck
I think the main offender here is CounterTop. Maybe pack more Oblivion Rings, Abolish, Aura of Silence (since they're at three CMC and its harder for them to hit three) or Pithing Needle (naming Sensei's Divining Top or Jace, the Mind Sculptor.)

- Soldevi digger was useless all time, people often lookjed at that card as nobody knew what it does...,
There are better choices; Mistveil Plains and Elixir of Immortality

- Argivian were also useless, I don't think theyre neede even with B.Wish to -> Restoration Or Replenish. The idea is that I'd like to have artifacts or encantments that make any ability destroying b¡y itselfs so that makes argivian better, but I haven't so it 's only usefull if they counter anything, therefore I'm think9ng seriosly to put in these slots Pyroblast main.
Like what was suggested above, I'd go for Noxious Revival. It can also replay (and help trigger) miracle cards (Terminus)

- Terminus is a great card. I want to make space main.
It is, especially with Scroll Rack and Noxious Revival

- B.Wish targets were mainly to -> Idillyc tutor, Terminus, Restoration Ritual.
I haven't really tested B.Wish so no comment on this

- I found Decree useless also, as most of the time s you lock with humility and Moat vs creatures, so I'm thinking seriously in Charbelcher main, if the idea around this is: you can win only with tax only + charbelcher.[/cards]

See my first reply. Also, I don't think Decree will be help because its too mana intensive (that why Entreat the Angel isn't really suggested in the deck[/cards]) and this deck wants to run efficient-costed spells

[quote]- Important Note: I notice I had no respiknse vs Teeg. so I'll put something in side for B.Wish, any Idea? I need also anything that works vs mother + gaddock. Pyroclasm for example doesn t work. Please help in here!

I would suggest the following: Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. I can't think of a Sorcery-based one for B.Wish

Questions:
- Have you played Charbelcher Main? how is that good? I'm seriosly thinkin in including main, I will need to win some day a game with this deck!
See above. Charbelcher is your win-button in the late game.

- I ve been thikning in painters - grisdtone, and even that way will make my pyroblasts better, but I find again that painter is a creature and is not ok with humility.
I wouldn't suggest Painter's Servant+Grindstone because Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is a thing in Legacy and its a two-card mana intesnsive combo.

As for Painter with Humility, because of how layering works, Painter will be a 1/1 with no ability but everything will be the color of your choice (Its ability is "As it enters the battlefield" and not "Whenever", so the trigger doesn't use the stack)

For more information, look up these threads:
How Humility Works (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3649-How-Humility-Works)
Humility and Painter’s Servant (http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/5-tricky-legacy-interactions/)

- Does the Opalescence option can be ok? does it work with moat humility?
Opalescence Ruling (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/13.html)

Though I don't think it will be advisable with Moat.

- Do you know guys any other idea regarding Win Con, ajani elspeth? Too slow.
They are too slow, but I will suggest Elspeth, Knight-Errant since it has synergy with Humility and can hold back aggro no problem. Ajani Vengeant is alright but you did mention that sometimes you get color screwed.

- Well my main problem is Miracles countertop, so options are:
1. Prytoblasts main.
2. more Aura of silnce maybe?
3. The artifact that costs 2 and you put counters and can destroy even jace OR E.Explosives?
4. Do you have any other idea?
That artifact is Ratchet Bomb. For other answers, see above.

- Can anybody tell me the utlity of Soldevi digger? does this card worth? K-Run could you give me an anwer in here.
Soldevi Digger is an old tech as it can recycle cards that can be Scrolled back into. You have better options now (such as Noxious Revival)

Belcher is amazing. It’s the only card I have that kills my opponent, and I play 1. Never had an issue with 2x Argivian Find maindeck either. Soldevi digger is awful. It was a kill card to stop you from decking back in the day. It’s horribly outdated, you can just cut that straight up for belcher.

Oh damn, the more I learn. LOL

Blood moon is necessary if you’re playing Red. I’m not sure why there is so much disinterest in the scepter/chant combo, but I’m totally unimpressed by abeyance and have cut it completely. I’d rather just have Leylines to stop their plans. I have no problem scroll racking away extras.
Scepter/Chant Combo is too mana intensive though once you get it online, it can win certain matchups.

I'm pretty sure that this deck fundamentally doesn't work.
We will make it work ;)

I know you've tested it before (when I kept crusading about its legalization, you kept saying you've tested it and its crap) but if built around it properly, it will work.

I'm also pretty sure, however, that there's exactly one card that makes Land Tax almost worth playing and that ought to be a pre-requisite for the archetype and that I haven't seen at all thusfar;

Extraplanar Lens

The card has massive synergies with Land Tax in that it allows you to activate the card while not missing out on your mana development.
As big of an internet dick that you are, you are god damn awesome. Thanks for suggesting that!

As for your list,
Why Venser's Journal? I get the no hand limit but just to gain life, wouldn't Ivory Tower better.

Also why Tormod's Crypt? Why not Grafdigger's Cage?

I agree with E-tutor's number since Scroll Rack will do most of the searching.

yespuhyren

08-26-2012, 03:01 AM

Extraplanar was tested and sadly had to be dropped long ago due to lack of impact. The card is AWESOME, but it’s simply win more and this deck needs more proactive cards to helping you live. I do still have a sweet spot for it and I play it in Modern with snow covered plains, but I miss it in the deck that being said I can see people playing it.

Currently the couple flex slots where I would be playing 2x Extraplanar became Oblivion Ring, then Powder Keg, and now are Grafdigger’s Cage and Cursed Totem

K-Run

08-26-2012, 09:11 AM

@Pelikanudo

About Burning Wish:

Many years ago, I wanted to play 4 Burning Wish in Vintage Parfait as a better way to get access to Balance. Burning Wish was restricted the following month, so I never really try it. The idea of Burning Wish is Legacy is interesting, but we have to ask ourselves if any sorcery is worth it. Let’s take a look at your sideboard sorceries:

1x Terminus
1x Banefire
1x Wrath of God
1x Replenish
1x Planar Birth
1x Shattering Spree
1x Idyllic Tutor
1x Decree of Justice
1x Ritual of Restoration

Terminus: The thing with Terminus is that you’d rather have it in your library than in your hand. Wrath of God seems better for that role. Other possible options include Pyroclasm and Firespout.

Banefire: This sounds like a good idea. Red Sun’s Zenith is interesting as well.

Replenish: This is useful vs counterspells and removal. A good wish target.

Planar Birth: I don’t understand why some people still want to play this. Unless you face lots of burn decks AND run Zuran Orb, I don’t think this is useful at all.

Shattering Spree: An amazing card vs artifacts but too dependent on red mana. Revoke Existence or Dust to Dust seem better cards for that role.

Idyllic Tutor: Sounds like a late-game option, as it would cost you 5 manas plus the cost of the wanted enchantment… Is it worth the slot? You already have 4 E. Tutors and the tax/rack engine for that…

Decree of Justice: Nice card, but will you have enough mana to make it relevant?

Ritual of Restoration: Noxious Revival is a better card that you should play maindeck instead. Mine Excavation is better if you really want a Wish target.

Are there any other options?

Austere Command
Cataclysm
Cenn’s Enlistment
Increasing Devotion
Martial Coup
Morningtide
Saltblast
Timely Reinforcements
Earthquake
Meltdown
Ruination
Winds of Change

The problem with your strategy is that you give up maindeck defense in the form of Swords to Plowshares and Terminus to get access to situational business spells (ex. : Replenish). A better way to do it in my humble opinion would be to have proper defense maindeck and to use Burning Wish to get access to specialized resources. Depending on Burning Wish to save your ass in the early game is bound to fail, if only for the lack of red mana available. I would play 2-3 Wishes at most and add Plateaus to ensure a better access to red mana.

About Counterbalance:

There are two problems with this matchup. First, we do not have proper maindeck solutions to Counterbalance, a card that deals with most of our cards. Then, there is the fact that Miracles is a slow deck as well, making it impossible to win the 2nd and 3rd game within 50 min. The best sideboard card vs Counterbalance is Banishing Stroke. The best advice I can give you is to concede the first game as soon as your opponent has an active CounterTop.

About a faster kill:

Goblin Charbelcher is the fastest reliable kill. I personally use Batterskull and Elspeth, Knight-Errant and it is fast enough to my liking. In your build, I would play Charbelcher.

About some cards you use:

Soldevi Digger and Argivian Find are outdated. Use Wheel of Sun and Moon and Noxious Revival for an instant upgrade!

About Gaddock Teeg and Mother of Runes:

Swords is a great answer to both cards. If you use Pyroclasm, you can get rid of one of the two creatures. My version doesn’t have much problem vs Maverick: I simply tutor for Cursed Totem in the first turns and deal with the creatures with Swords and Terminus until I play Humility. Karakas also deals with Teeg.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

yespuhyren

08-26-2012, 11:13 AM

K-Run, is there any reason you don’t have a pyroclasm as a burning wish target? I always found it incredibly useful. Are you running earthquake?

K-Run

08-26-2012, 04:34 PM

K-Run, is there any reason you don’t have a pyroclasm as a burning wish target? I always found it incredibly useful. Are you running earthquake?

This is not a sideboard suggestion. I simply listed additional interesting sorcery cards in White and Red, and Pyroclasm and similar cards were listed earlier in my explanations.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-26-2012, 05:53 PM

@K-Run:

Ivory Tower would be better life gain obviously, but the lifegain and don't-discard effects are so marginal that it's definitely not worthwhile to use two slots for them, even if one is Reliquary Tower, I feel. Whether or not it's worthwhile to have a slot to this at all is questionable but, while expensive, Venser's Journal does do a lot of legwork in the late game, pulling you way out of reach and letting you get your full activation out of Land Tax while not just discarding a bunch of lands eot.

I tested out other graveyard removal, but honestly nothing else is as poweful/efficient as Tormod's Crypt, and you have so many conditional slots anyway, and Scroll Rack to throw it back. I would also say that there's a number of marginal graveyard utilization effects in Legacy that Cage doesn't answer; pumping KotR, or recurring Engineered Explosives with Academy Ruins for instance, or Welder tricks.

Although when it is good the fact that I only have 1 Argivian to recur it is a bit annoying.

One card I've often wanted to play but is probably terrible is Reito Lantern. It's a Digger that doubles as graveyard "removal" for the opponent, although it would be less useful due to its slowness against Reanimator and Dredge. It would however let you manage recursion tricks in slow matchups like against 43Lands, decks with Ruins, etc.. It seems way better than either Digger or Elixir though, although perhaps not Mistveil.

@yespuhyren:

I would ask what you tested against. A lot of decks I've found Lens absolutely necessary, as the plays that are seemingly "win-more" that it enables are often necessary to survive against decks with strong late games, such as BladeControl, Goblins, Miracles, NicFit, and many builds of Maverick or Bant. It does suck enormous donkey balls when they actually have removal for it, but the decks that pack Ancient Grudge in their board tend to be the ones against which Land Tax is basically dead anyway. i.e., RugDelver.

This deck is, of course, very mana hungry for a strategy that relies on your opponent playing more lands than you. This is the fundamental challenge this deck faces; how can you activate Land Tax and develop your mana at the same time? Lens is the only card that neatly slices that Gordian knot, although Path to Exile as a 4x helps.

Also always choosing to draw first, which I've found necessary and I'm not sure if everyone else implicitly assumed, because I don't recall it being mentioned, but yeah, totes draw first.

(Lens also lets you double up on Sacred Mesa, a card that can simply run away with the game entirely by itself with sufficient mana.)

Pelikanudo

08-26-2012, 06:14 PM

TheInamous!
Thanks For Reito Lantern. !
It s the best of all.
- better than digger - you choose and can be both gy.
- better than mistveil - both gy.

Do you know any other card.
How do you guys play charbelcher, as I think makes the deck basic land depandant.
Because of that card I think I will go back to old strategy. No win cons main!!! just winning first game its all i want! Thats why I play B.Wish, you really do not mind 3rd games...

K-Run what is really the strategy of the deck, I mean, is enoguh to not loose? simply make the opponent loose? can be this deck played as a Deck That Does Not Loose?

I think I'm going to substitute charbelcher by that one...

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-26-2012, 07:00 PM

Just trying to win game 1 is a terrible strategy because probability is compounding. So if you're 60% favored against a deck you're 60% to win g1 but rather more than that to win 2/3, and if you're 40% favored, likewise you're somewhat less than that to win 2/3.

So ideally you'd want the matchups where you're unfavored to only last one game, but by their nature this is difficult to do. Rather, all you're doing is undercutting your own win percentage by dragging game 1 out unnecessarily. Part of why you want to run Charbelcher and I would say Lens and Mesa, as once you've got the game locked down you want to kill them pretty quickly.

K-Run

08-26-2012, 08:34 PM

@Pelikanudo

You don't want to lose a single game. :)

Winning the first one is essential, and not losing the second one is kind of ok. Try to win both games!

Reito Lantern is a great Soldevi Digger replacement. However, it's a bit too slow to be relied upon as an anti-graveyard card. A single Mistveil Plains is enough and a Tormod's Crypt, a Grafdigger's Cage, a Phyrexian Furnace or a Nihil Spellbomb can all fill this spot. They all have their pros and cons; your metagame will tell you which one to favor.

Extraplanar Lens is interesting, but I still prefer the Wildfield Borderposts.

kwis

08-26-2012, 09:27 PM

K-Run

08-26-2012, 10:14 PM

Wow, just realized this deck has wraith for 1W at instant speed with scrollrack out and the ability to flip a top even if it draws terminus. Seems pretty insane. Why not play Entreat the Angels as a wincon if you can always guarantee it while your board is set up?

Depending on your build, you might not have lots of mana available to power EtA. Also, EtA has bad synergy with Humility.

yespuhyren

08-26-2012, 11:18 PM

@yespuhyren:

I would ask what you tested against. A lot of decks I've found Lens absolutely necessary, as the plays that are seemingly "win-more" that it enables are often necessary to survive against decks with strong late games, such as BladeControl, Goblins, Miracles, NicFit, and many builds of Maverick or Bant. It does suck enormous donkey balls when they actually have removal for it, but the decks that pack Ancient Grudge in their board tend to be the ones against which Land Tax is basically dead anyway. i.e., RugDelver.

This deck is, of course, very mana hungry for a strategy that relies on your opponent playing more lands than you. This is the fundamental challenge this deck faces; how can you activate Land Tax and develop your mana at the same time? Lens is the only card that neatly slices that Gordian knot, although Path to Exile as a 4x helps.

Also always choosing to draw first, which I've found necessary and I'm not sure if everyone else implicitly assumed, because I don't recall it being mentioned, but yeah, totes draw first.

(Lens also lets you double up on Sacred Mesa, a card that can simply run away with the game entirely by itself with sufficient mana.)

I didn’t pick up the deck when Land Tax became legal. I had my playset ready, and as soon as it became legal it made it into my deck. I’ve been playing the same shell for over a year now, having testing several thousand matches online and hundreds in person. I control the board, and eventually win with a singleton win condition. With a maindeck of Leylines, Relics/Cage, Moat/Humility/Island Sanctuary I have no problem establishing board control, using the land tax engine to go off, and winning when I’m ready. I don’t bother playing creatures, I just stop all creatures.

I don’t play a mana hungry strategy, and don’t bother with mana intensive cards. I’d rather E-tutor up scepter turn 1 and go for turn 2 scepter chant and just win.

kwis

08-26-2012, 11:33 PM

Depending on your build, you might not have lots of mana available to power EtA. Also, EtA has bad synergy with Humility.

I simply figured that the work that EtA did would be equal to or greater than the work done by Mesa in context. However I neglected the fact that this deck plays Humility for whatever reason. In that case I certainly see the value in playing Mesa over EtA.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-27-2012, 12:15 AM

I didn’t pick up the deck when Land Tax became legal. I had my playset ready, and as soon as it became legal it made it into my deck. I’ve been playing the same shell for over a year now, having testing several thousand matches online and hundreds in person. I control the board, and eventually win with a singleton win condition. With a maindeck of Leylines, Relics/Cage, Moat/Humility/Island Sanctuary I have no problem establishing board control, using the land tax engine to go off, and winning when I’m ready. I don’t bother playing creatures, I just stop all creatures.

I don’t play a mana hungry strategy, and don’t bother with mana intensive cards. I’d rather E-tutor up scepter turn 1 and go for turn 2 scepter chant and just win.

I can assure you that you do not want to engage me in a game of who's-been-trying-to-make-monowhite-control-work-in-Legacy-longer. It is conceivably possible that I could ever lose to anyone in this game I guess, but it will not be to someone that thinks Zuran Orb main or a full spread of CoPs in the board is a thing.

If there was anything else in that post of value I missed it.

Maindeck Leylines are awful, Scepter-Chant is unfortunately also awful at this point. A very tiny fraction of the combo decks in the field are significantly affected by it.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-27-2012, 12:17 AM

Also an over-emphasis on testing is going to lead you to undervalue winning at a sufficient pace to actually finish three games in a round, which would explain much else of that build.

yespuhyren

08-27-2012, 06:49 PM

I was going to respond to both of your posts, but after typing out my responses I realized that I’m wasting my time with an arrogant troll. While I get you missed the COPs as humour, everything else you said is laughably irrelevant or senseless.

You play your lists, I’ll play mine. I’ve been playing legacy since it was Type 1.5 classic. If I have trouble finishing a match in time, let alone winning, I’ll message you. Until then I don’t plan on responding to another one of yours posts.

(nameless one)

08-27-2012, 07:55 PM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-27-2012, 09:46 PM

I was going to respond to both of your posts, but after typing out my responses I realized that I’m wasting my time with an arrogant troll. While I get you missed the COPs as humour, everything else you said is laughably irrelevant or senseless.

Then your response was to type that you had no response, just like your previous reply wasn't an actual argument but a laughable attempt to assert authority. Speaking of...

You play your lists, I’ll play mine. I’ve been playing legacy since it was Type 1.5 classic.

http://i.imgur.com/djAMK.png

To clarify a bit, the reason that this line of argument is ridiculous isn't solely or even primarily because I have far more experience playing mono-white control in Legacy, and yes, in 1.5 too; it's because experience is not a reliable indicator of correctness.

So your insistence on non-arguments renders your posts rather easy to dismiss as insignificant.

Master Shake

08-27-2012, 10:44 PM

I've been casually playing around with a few lists of Mono-White Land Tax-based control since the unbanning. I started using a slightly modifided version of yespuhyren's list a few days ago and liked it a bit more than I thought I would.

20 Plains
4 Mox Diamond

3 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
1 Planar Birth
1 Zuran Orb

4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Argivian Find

4 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Moat
1 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring

2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Reito Lantern

1 Sacred Mesa
1 Goblin Charbelcher

The deck was lacking some of the Utility that I remembered from the Older Parfait lists, which is really what I was hoping to recapture. I was also looking for a better way to combat control mirrors in the main. Previously I had played a list I'd thrown together, that lended me some of the ideas that I incorporated here.

After testing, I'd like to assure you that Reito Lantern is actually quite good, not amazing, but fulfills endgame duties while threatening to steal Snapcaster targets. I had considered testing out Elixir of Immortality in this slot, but wasn't totally fond of the idea of recycling everything.

Thinking about the deck, I think that a heavy Mox Diamond build with a splash is what would best suit me. I have tested with a Blue Splash to include Jace, and it was fine for just throwing him in there. I think that the deck could really benefit from starting to differentiate itself from Quinn + Land Tax by exploring the options, keeping this thread as a place for W/x control, but exploring what the different splashes can offer.

Off the top of my head Blue offers some great options: Brainstorm and Jace are obvious suggestions, and how they interact positively with Miracles lets you play a more W/u Miracle list that focuses on a different aspect of the game than a U/w miracle list. other offerings blue has are Trade Routes which can both enable Land Tax and act as an auxiliary engine in place of Scroll Rack. Trade routes also works quite well with Planar Birth. Back to Basics is rather strong as well, forcing an opponent to commit lands to the table and can really swing a control mirror.

Red has been discussed a bit as giving Burning Wish and Blood Moon, both of which are great options. mana efficient sweepers like Pyroclasm seem quite good against Maverick, Goblins and Elves. Lightning Helix is also fine in most situations.

Black and Green seem lackluster, but Vindicate is pretty attractive. If someone has the time to collaborate a list of desirable cards to splash for, it really isn't a problem to play a few fetchlands, a dual or two and some off-color basics to support it. The loss is really only in using Goblin Charbelcher as a win-condition.

yespuhyren

08-28-2012, 12:44 AM

Best splash cards I’ve found so far:

Red:

Firestorm
Gamble
Blood Moon
Goblin Trenches
Burning Wish
Lightning Helix (in scepter heavy lists)

Green:

Sylvan Library
Sterling Grove
Dueling Grounds

Sideboard Options:
Choke
Carpet of Flowers

Black:

Bitterblossom
Chains of Mephistopheles
The Abyss

Blue:

Back to Basics
Daze
Trade Routes
In the Eye of Chaos

yespuhyren

08-28-2012, 01:03 AM

Hey yespuhyren,

I was playing my list yesterday (although multiplayer casual - along with Goblins, Modern non-combo Pod and Budget 12-post (it resembled like Modern pre-banning) and I find that Solitary Confinement is awesome at buying time. Though I was skipping my draw phases, I was able to put down enough Plains onto the field (although making sure I don't go over my opponents). When I ran out of Plains in the deck, then I sacrificed Solitary Confinement hoping to draw into a bomb. Sure it did I drew a Humility and it was easier for me there.

The that wasn't really acceptable in a real tournament, it could theoretically work out. My main concern now is I'm divided between Solitary Confinement and Island Sanctuary.

Here are the Pros and Cons

Solitary Confinement:
Pros:
- Can also act as a Leyline of Sanctity
- Can also stop islandwalk and flying.
Cons:
- You have to be dedicated to it
- Costs one more mana

Island Sanctuary:
Pros:
- Costs one less mana
- You can choose to draw if you have a better board position and not having Sanctuary to blow up
Cons:
- It doesn't stop Merfolk and anything flying
- It doesn't stop Siege-Gang Commander flying goblins at you.
- Not quite protected like Leyline

I'm wondering what should I use (two of 1-1 split, although I want to use two of one kind)

As for Isochron Scepter, I used to love Scepter lock but I find the mana-development of the deck to be too slow for Scepter. I used to run it when I ran Quinn and my old casual list (as seen at the OP). I've ultimately removed Scepter (and Orim's Chant) for more lands and Noxious Revival

As for Noxious Revival, not only it can recycle artifacts and enchantments, it can also set up Terminus if you're desperate for another one, as well as Wasteland or necessary spells.

As for sideboarding:

I wonder what your list is good against yespuhyren. Aggro is a must breeze for the deck. Now the problem is blue-based Tempo. I would imagine this deck would have a good control matchup but Counter-Top says otherwise.

I used to advocate Trinisphere in the main but with it, the deck loses half of its efficient costing spells. Also, Trinisphere creates a different set-up. I am thinking against Tempo and Combo (storm-based) or any deck that can run in low amounts of land, Trinisphere postboard with a different setup is the way to go. Kinda like a transformational sideboard turning the deck into aggro-Stax (kinda like 8-ball decks [cheap beaters backed up with resistors (Trinisphere). Maybe Stoneforge Mystic package comes in (siding out Humility?)

Share us which matchups are good and bad for your list.

The main reason I play Island Sanctuary over Solitary is that there is no discard downside. Goblins should be a joke. If you have Leyline of Sanctity in play, then drop Island Sanctuary, you’ve just stopped Goblins completely.

On Scepter Chant, I never understood what people were talking about when they said it was too mana intensive. You need 2 mana to lock down the game, 3 to stop creatures. You don’t need to do anything else generally speaking.

I’ll happily play turn 1 E-tutor, Turn 2 scepter chant, and sit behind that until I draw lands and build board presence while chanting them every single turn. What do I care if I’m taking 2-3 a turn if I’m chanting, I’ll find another plains, stop the attacks, then just keep going until I’m casting spells. There aren’t a lot of decks that can deal with an active scepter/chant plan

The goal of my list is to shut down all viable win conditions, hence the 4 maindeck leyline of sanctity. This deck wants to stop the opponent from having any means of winning.

Basic aggro and combo are a breeze. Maverick is practically a bye, though elves, goblins, merfolk and the like rarely put up much of a fight

Vs Combo and burn, you’re hoping on the 40% chance of that Leyline.

Ichorid/Reanimator can be tough if you don’t hit answers, but with 4 e-tutor and cage and relic main to make it a joke, though you have viable means to winning as well through the other silver bullets

Vs Sneak/Show and the like, you have a ton of answers, they have a ton of ways to win. It’s all in the cards. If you know what you’re playing, just play e-tutor for humility. You don’t need to cast it, just let it sit in your hand to shut down Show and Tell

RUG delver was a bitch at first, but I’ve been testing with David Caplan for the last few weeks and have knocked out a lot of the issues I was having before. Maindeck Relic is really good, and post board you definitely want the 2nd relic of progenitus and COP Green. COP Green pretty much walls everything but Delvers, which are stopped by Paths, Kegs, etc. It’s almost worth swapping the 2nd relic for the Cage if you’re in a RUG heavy meta with not a lot of Ichorid/Reanimator

The worst matchup would be U/W countertop/miracles, as it can sit around doing nothing. That’s why the SB has 2x Seal, 2x O-ring, and 1x Aura of Silence. If you can Needle the top before they can resolve counterbalance, you’re generally not that poor off. Their only win conditions are generally Jace (stopped by Leyline) and Angels, Snapcasters, etc which is walled by the rest of the deck.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-28-2012, 06:26 AM

People are packing a lot of sorcery speed answers to problem permanents in GSZ-> Pridemage, Vindicate/MaelstromPulse, or Pernicious Deed. This is aside from normal counters of course. So giving them a full turn's warning that you're going to try and chant them out of the game is an excellent way to just get 2-for-1'd.

I would also say it's really obvious that you haven't tested against combo if you think it's mainly a joke. Your deck is packed full of bad answers. You have nothing of significance to stop High Tide from crushing your face, that's basically an auto-loss; Leyline and Chant do nothing against Reanimator, Leyline does nothing against Sneak and Show and Chant stops one activation of Sneak Attack if you kick it.

Part of the reason that I stopped running Scepter-Chant in this format was that aside from the printing of Pridemage, Tendrils had receded as the dominant combo archetype.

You also just don' really have a lot of answers to aggro. You've got 4 Paths and 4-mana permanents you can't hope to actually cast with only 18 real mana sources unless you're activating Land Tax, which literally every aggro deck in the format can stop you from doing at very little detriment to its own mana development. Aether Vial completely shuts down the Land Taxes you're banking your entire gameplan on, and you have no actual answers to swarms of Merfolk or Goblins or Elves + Eldrazi.

This is exactly the kind of pile cutesy, shiny cool things that might come together in theory but won't in tournaments that I've been trying to stop people from playing in the archetype for ten years. If Land Tax is to form a viable deck it's not going to be like this; it's going to be in a deck that, first of all, can reliably win without Land Tax active, and that can consistently get draws that beat up on creature decks, instead of having a million kitschy pieces of shit stuck in hand.

yespuhyren

08-28-2012, 05:17 PM

Since you seem like a troll who isn’t going to leave me alone...

People are packing a lot of sorcery speed answers to problem permanents in GSZ-> Pridemage, Vindicate/MaelstromPulse, or Pernicious Deed. This is aside from normal counters of course. So giving them a full turn's warning that you're going to try and chant them out of the game is an excellent way to just get 2-for-1’d.

It also says "if you don’t have Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse or GSZ/Pridemage this turn you lose" against a lot of those decks...Oh yeah. You can play it after turn 2. What a novel idea.

I would also say it's really obvious that you haven't tested against combo if you think it's mainly a joke. Your deck is packed full of bad answers. You have nothing of significance to stop High Tide from crushing your face, that's basically an auto-loss; Leyline and Chant do nothing against Reanimator, Leyline does nothing against Sneak and Show and Chant stops one activation of Sneak Attack if you kick it.

Good point. 4x Leyline and 4x Orim’s Chant is awful against combo :rolleyes:. 90% of the combo decks I see are ANT, Belcher, and the like. If High Tide somehow becomes an issue I’ll change things up.

I wonder if blue players ever side out force of will? :eek: They play 4x Force to stop unfair decks, I play Leyline to stop Tendrils, High Tide, Burn, Discard, Jace, Intuition, etc. Believe it or not...that’s a card that can be sided out in game 2

Part of the reason that I stopped running Scepter-Chant in this format was that aside from the printing of Pridemage, Tendrils had receded as the dominant combo archetype.

Scepter Chant is not just for tendrils decks...You just need to cast chant. Scepter chant is to lock out decks that DO NOT have answers to it immediately, which is a lot of decks. But you would know that scepter chant isn’t in the deck solely for combo with your 10 years+ experience telling people not to play it.

You also just don' really have a lot of answers to aggro. You've got 4 Paths and 4-mana permanents you can't hope to actually cast with only 18 real mana sources unless you're activating Land Tax, which literally every aggro deck in the format can stop you from doing at very little detriment to its own mana development. Aether Vial completely shuts down the Land Taxes you're banking your entire gameplan on, and you have no actual answers to swarms of Merfolk or Goblins or Elves + Eldrazi.

Except Island Sanctuary and Powder Keg in addition to 2x Oblivion Ring, Moat, Humility, Scepter Chant in game 1 alone, and more game 2...

This is exactly the kind of pile cutesy, shiny cool things that might come together in theory but won't in tournaments that I've been trying to stop people from playing in the archetype for ten years. If Land Tax is to form a viable deck it's not going to be like this; it's going to be in a deck that, first of all, can reliably win without Land Tax active, and that can consistently get draws that beat up on creature decks, instead of having a million kitschy pieces of shit stuck in hand.

Well, you spend at least one part of each post trying to assert yourself as better than everyone else, so I’ll just assume this is what that paragraph is and I won’t attempt to argue anything there.

What else ya got? You’ll soon start to realize that I also couldn’t care less what your opinion is and that you should just stop commenting on anything I say. You can take this as me asking you to stop replying to anything I say for the sake of the thread staying creative and constructive versus your approach of cocky arrogance and stupid arguments.

There is legitimately nothing you could do short of winning a major event with mono white land tax sometime soon that would give me any interest in listening to you.

(nameless one)

08-28-2012, 06:40 PM

Hey yespuhyren,

You played with Caplan? Like goobafish? I'm guessing you're from Ontario?

As for your list, you said you wanted to run Terminus. Why haven't you change that? Is Keg actually better?

As for your land count, I somehow agree with IBA. Sometimes I find myself mulligan to five because I cannot get ample amount of lands. I don't think relying on Land Tax alone is good. I'm actually going to bump my land count to at least 20.

Also, I might play a small tournament. I'm contemplating on running your list (maybe some changes). I'm wondering what your sideboard looks like and for what matchups.

yespuhyren

08-29-2012, 12:03 AM

If you want to play 20 lands, that’s perfectly reasonable. I’d just move 2x Relics into the board, add the 2x Plains, and just fill the other 3 Metagame Slots up in the board. The same could be said for adding 2x Extraplanar lens if you so choose that route. i have 2 foil ones, but still don’t really want to play them. That being said, I wouldn’t do the snow-covered plains if I did, but that’s just because I love my foil lightning plains :D.

You are correct about Ontario and the like about Caplan, and he just left lol We play all the time, I have been playing with him for 15 years since camp. I’m going to repost the full list to make it more easy to see. I like to post images, as some people like me hate reading deck lists, and it’s much easier just to look at cards in the deck and pick up the feel of it that way vs text on a page

Couscous Parfait - Maindeck - 60
Mana Sources (22)
18x Plains
4x Mox Diamond

Instants (14)
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Path to Exile
4x Orim’s Chant
2x Argivian Find

Artifacts (13)
3x Scroll Rack
2x Zuran Orb
2x Isochron Scepter
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x Goblin Charbelcher

Enchantments (11)
4x Land Tax
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Island Sanctuary
1x Humility
1x Moat

Currently my sideboard is:

1x Grafdigger’s Cage (Dredge, Reanimator, Past in Flames, Snapcasters, Lingering Souls, etc etc
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist (Enchantress, Combo, etc)
1x Cursed Totem (Maverick, Elves, Griselbrand)
1x Powder Keg (Aggro, Empty the Warrens, Affinity, Etc)
2x Seal of Cleansing (Enchantress, MUD, Countertop)
2x Oblivion Ring (Show and Tell mainly)
2x Ghostly Prison
1x Nevermore (Most matchups)
1x Aura of Silence (Enchantress, MUD, Countertop, some storm)
1x Story Circle
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon

There are a ton of cards that cycle in the open slots, but most of them don’t see much play and those 10 generally have covered everything for me. Other cards of interest that I’ve looked into, tested, and found viable:

2x Sun Droplet
1x Karmic Justice
1x Humility
1x Luminarch Ascension
1x Solitary Confinement
1x Juntu Stakes
1x Harsh Judgement
1x Warmth
1-3x Ethersworn Canonist/Rule of Law
1x Sphere of Resistance/Trinisphere/Defense Grid
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1-2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Meekstone
1x Story Circle
1x Porphyry Nodes
1-3x Ghostly Prison
1-4x Caltrops

The biggest advice I have for sideboarding is to play what your metagame dictates! Sideboards should never be copied card for card unless you’re playing in the same metagame as the person whose list you’ve copied.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-29-2012, 12:00 PM

Since you seem like a troll who isn’t going to leave me alone...

Yes, I'm sure it's an unfathomable burden for you to be called upon to actually defend yourself in this, an internet discussion forum.

Oh, lest we forget,

If I have trouble finishing a match in time, let alone winning, I’ll message you. Until then I don’t plan on responding to another one of yours posts.

Best laid plans...

It also says "if you don’t have Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse or GSZ/Pridemage this turn you lose" against a lot of those decks...Oh yeah. You can play it after turn 2. What a novel idea.

Good luck with getting that running on 18 lands, and with no removal besides Path to sweep out, say, Moms and Thalia and Pridemages, or hordes of little red or blue or green men.

Good point. 4x Leyline and 4x Orim’s Chant is awful against combo :rolleyes:. 90% of the combo decks I see are ANT, Belcher, and the like. If High Tide somehow becomes an issue I’ll change things up.

Then you have a weird meta. Reanimator and SnT decks are overwhelmingly more popular than Tendrils. High Tide is somewhat less popular, but the aggregate of other combo decks that don't give a shit about Leyline, including Enchantress, GlimpseElves, Mud and Imperial Painter also significantly exceeds Tendrils.

Now I mean if your meta is all Tendrils and Burn, that's a thing I guess, but this thread should also be talking about what's good in a general Legacy environment.

I wonder if blue players ever side out force of will? :eek: They play 4x Force to stop unfair decks, I play Leyline to stop Tendrils, High Tide, Burn, Discard, Jace, Intuition, etc. Believe it or not...that’s a card that can be sided out in game 2

Leyline doesn't stop High Tide, nor does it stop the part of Jace that's generally going to lose you the game. Also this comparison is facetious because Force of Will, while sub-optimal against decks like Merfolk, Maverick, etc., is still far more relevant than Leyline, which is not at all.

Scepter Chant is not just for tendrils decks...You just need to cast chant. Scepter chant is to lock out decks that DO NOT have answers to it immediately, which is a lot of decks. But you would know that scepter chant isn’t in the deck solely for combo with your 10 years+ experience telling people not to play it.

Actually I told people to play Scepter Chant for quite a while. The reality is that, besides the fact that it was always a drain on the clock, it's just not as good as it used to be due to a number of factors, such as the strengthening of blue and the printing of Pridemage. Thalia doesn't help either.

Except Island Sanctuary and Powder Keg in addition to 2x Oblivion Ring, Moat, Humility, Scepter Chant in game 1 alone, and more game 2...

I'm going to do you a favor and pretend you are not suggesting dropping an early Island Sanctuary. The problems with trying to assemble Scepter-Chant early (especially given that this will usually mean tutoring for it and opening yourself up to a 3-for-1 that will be essentially game ending) have already been discussed; Powder Keg is of very limited value against most decks (why do I even need to point that out?,) and Oblivion Ring is pretty meek if all you're doing is hitting a beater with it. Moat and Humility are decent cards but often insufficient to put you out of reach if you aren't first doing a lot to slow them down, and again, your mana base is simply too greedy to cast these cards reliably when it matters.

In order to reliably combat the fair creature decks, which are your bread and butter matchups, where you're trying to steal most of your EV- since nothing you do is really going to give you a very strong combo matchup anyway- you're going to want probably 1-2 StP minimum, and 4x Terminus. Also for God's sake, the 4th Scroll Rack and at least 2 Tops for consistency.

Well, you spend at least one part of each post trying to assert yourself as better than everyone else, so I’ll just assume this is what that paragraph is and I won’t attempt to argue anything there.

This is laughable. You are the only one who has- twice in fact- attempted to assert authority here as a substitution for an argument. I merely pointed out my far superior authority in this archetype when you made such an attempt, which makes your butthurt over this pretty ridiculous. And I even said that my superior experience in this archetype does not of course translate into my being necessarily right- determining that is going to depend on some mixture of results (testing or tournament,) statistics and strategic theory, which you seem to resent being asked to provide.

What else ya got? You’ll soon start to realize that I also couldn’t care less what your opinion is and that you should just stop commenting on anything I say. You can take this as me asking you to stop replying to anything I say for the sake of the thread staying creative and constructive versus your approach of cocky arrogance and stupid arguments.

There is legitimately nothing you could do short of winning a major event with mono white land tax sometime soon that would give me any interest in listening to you.

What, so you don't have the self-control to follow through on your own threat to ignore me, so now you're asking me to do it for you?

I honestly don't care about your opinion in particular, except to the extent that when you're wrong I can prevent people from listening to you, and thus wasting their time and energy and money, by making it clear that you're wrong.

yespuhyren

08-29-2012, 06:33 PM

I honestly don't care about your opinion in particular, except to the extent that when you're wrong I can prevent people from listening to you, and thus wasting their time and energy and money, by making it clear that you're wrong.

Cool. I’m wrong, you’re the best, we get it. If you play 5 kills and I play 1, we’re clearly playing different styles of decks. To whoever listens to your advice, good for them. To whoever plays my list, they’ll make the decision themselves. I don’t build my list for the online metagame and your metagame. I couldn’t care about your metagame, or anyone else’s. I build for mine, which has a lot of burn, tendrils, and Goblins, RUG, Delver, Merfolk, Maverick. Argument Done and done? Thanks for your public service, and if you’re that much better than all of us you should spend some time pushing the thread forward with lists and info.

For anyone interested, against decks like Goblins, if you can play turn 0 Leyline, turn 1 E-tutor, turn 2 Island Sanctuary, they have no outs. Island Sanctuary is often very good early, as opposed to what was argued.

This is the list you posted:

18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets

4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Argivian Find

3 Extraplanar Lens

4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal

2 Sacred mesa
1 Batterskull
2 Goblin Charbelcher

You knocked my list in the combo matchup, where I at least seem to have 4x Leyline 4x Chant and more in the maindeck. You literally have 0 cards outside of Tormod’s Crypt that do anything to combo, and Crypt is loose at best. Are you just conceding every game 1 to any and every combo deck?

I’m not saying don’t post, but why don’t you post a sideboard, some matchup results with your deck, etc. Show some valid arguments and theories through your list, like how you beat combo, instead of knocking other people’s lists...

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-30-2012, 09:36 AM

Cool. I’m wrong, you’re the best, we get it. If you play 5 kills and I play 1, we’re clearly playing different styles of decks. To whoever listens to your advice, good for them. To whoever plays my list, they’ll make the decision themselves. I don’t build my list for the online metagame and your metagame. I couldn’t care about your metagame, or anyone else’s. I build for mine, which has a lot of burn, tendrils, and Goblins, RUG, Delver, Merfolk, Maverick. Argument Done and done? Thanks for your public service, and if you’re that much better than all of us you should spend some time pushing the thread forward with lists and info.

You do not seem to really grok the purpose of discussion forums. By venturing a decklist into this thread you're opening it up for public discussion; you don't get to cry foul that people critique your list or its application to metagames that aren't all burn and tendrils.

For anyone interested, against decks like Goblins, if you can play turn 0 Leyline, turn 1 E-tutor, turn 2 Island Sanctuary, they have no outs. Island Sanctuary is often very good early, as opposed to what was argued.

That is a truly terrible idea. Besides being difficult to pull off, it means you just sitting there for thirty five minutes waiting for them to deck. The problem with this is that it gives them total control of the clock; all they have to do at that point is wait til about fifteen-twenty minutes left in the round and scoop. From there they can quickly sideboard and play out the remaining games; if they win they can do it usually pretty quickly, especially since you're not even running a board clearer; but if, say, you stabilize game 3, you'll still have no way to win in time.

Also I don't know what you mean by "like Goblins" here, since all other major midrange decks have flyers and/or islandwalkers.

This is the list you posted:

18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets

4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Argivian Find

3 Extraplanar Lens

4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal

2 Sacred mesa
1 Batterskull
2 Goblin Charbelcher

You knocked my list in the combo matchup, where I at least seem to have 4x Leyline 4x Chant and more in the maindeck. You literally have 0 cards outside of Tormod’s Crypt that do anything to combo, and Crypt is loose at best. Are you just conceding every game 1 to any and every combo deck?

Except Sneak and Show, yes.

My criticism wasn't that you were losing to combo; it's that you were losing to combo while spending an enormous number of slots doing it.

I’m not saying don’t post, but why don’t you post a sideboard, some matchup results with your deck, etc. Show some valid arguments and theories through your list, like how you beat combo, instead of knocking other people’s lists...

My suggestion for post board against combo would be;

+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Rule of Law
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Aura of Silence
+1 Nevermore
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Leyline of Sanctity

Depending on the given combo strategy, obviously. Note that that's still not going to give you an overall fantastic matchup, but you're not focused primarily on that; the ultimate point here is to cut your losses to the extent plausible and focus on making up ground in other matchups; not just auto-scooping to other control decks, for instance.

Another sideboard suggestion would be just run a fucking Story Circle, seriously. My current list + SB I'm testing:

18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets

4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Argivian Find

3 Extraplanar Lens

4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Sacred Mesa
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Batterskull

SB:

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Runed Halo
1 Nevermore
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rule of Law
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Aura of Silence
1 Powder Keg
1 Story Circle
2 Karmic Justice
(or 1 KJ/1 Sacred Ground, dunno)
1 Luminarch Ascension

(nameless one)

08-30-2012, 12:41 PM

I have nothing on this thread right now and nothing on you yespuhyren things just got serious now that IBA is going to test this out.

Given that IBA is actually testing and not durdling and "testing" the list, he actually has credibility when it comes to mono-white based control decks. The dude spawned Crazy 88 (Skullclamp control back in type 1.5) and turned a half-assed Dutch Stax deck into somewhat a feasable established metagame deck (Quinn) with a plausable draw engine and early game strategy (something that Dutch Staxx sucked on).

@IBA:

I am still not sold on the Venser's Journal idea. The no max hand size is cool (since if you have a massive hand, you can just Scroll half your library to your hand) but its at 5 mana. The lifegain is good too. I was actually thinking of Elixir of Immortality for lifegain and shuffle effect but you still have that seven card limit.

Also, why Tormod's Crypt and not Relic of Progenitus. I also like the idea of Grafdigger's Cage as not only it shuts down Snapcaster Mage, but it also shuts down Green Sun's Zenith.

Personally, I would remove both Sacred Mesa and run three Batterskull. That card is a beating against aggro. (maybe a 2-2 split with Goblin Charbelcher)

And for Agrivian Find, what about Noxious Revival on that slot instead? You can 'set-up' discarded or used Terminus with it. Although I understand the card disadvantage behind Revival.

I've always wanted to run Wasteland in Quinn but it just doesn't fit. I know you're still running the Snow-draw engine with Scrying Sheets but Would a one or two-of Wasteland be okay here? It also deals with lands that produces more than one mana.

Also, why no Mox Diamond?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-30-2012, 02:35 PM

I'm not sold on Journal either, it's an idea I'm testing out. It may be nothing more than the danger of cool things, ultimately.

And you'd take out the Mesas only because you've never had Lens + Mesa in play. In fact that card's the only reason I would run a MWC list these days without Elspeths. Giving all your lands T: Put a 1/1 flyer into play is actually amazing.

Crypt is over Relic for the obvious reason; you want to be able to recur things- including possible Crypt- with Find. Drawing a single card is less relevant than this. Most decks utilize the graveyard in some way in Legacy, and you can always shuffle Crypt back with Scroll Rack anyway.

Cage is more reasonable but has the drawback of not affecting many graveyard effects; it won't shrink a Mongoose or Goyf or Knight, for instance, and it won't end Crucible or Academy Ruins or Life from the Loam shenanigans.

I don't like Noxious Revival at all. Paying life is a problem, as is the card disadvantage and the need to wait a turn. The mana less isn't an important bonus by the time you'd use it, so really the only big pro is that it can give you back a Terminus.

Mox Diamond there just isn't the room for nor the land count. It's only good with an active Land Tax, and the list is trying to avoid that trap.

Pelikanudo

08-31-2012, 12:52 PM

@K-Run:
I'd like to see your latest build.

@TaxMan
Too.

Both:
Elspeth I think its the key card, charbelcher is good, but it makes the deck basic land dependant.
Elspeth however contributes with 3 of the roles we need - Protection to all enchantments and a way to kill opponent avoiding humility + moat, we can consider the card as a card that is difficult to kill. Maybe 2 is the number.

So, I'm definately playing plateaus, althouth I have to get them! and more city of traitors.
I'm trying the New Digger (dont remember the name artifact 2 ability 3), I think its great, it also cotributes with 2 important roles.

And related to the C.Balance match up.
Definately putting in pyroblasts seem a great option but not sure, I remember the list from the past and thinking in going back up to 3 A.Of silnce. this card seems to shine and more when you have plenty of number, I'll take out nevermore.
this card avoids E.Explosives, oblivion ring, oblivion stone, pernicius AND LED, petals,
its also good vs MUD and the sneak attack envhantment.
AND makes all these spells costs 2 more!
I'm really thinking in putting in 4 and lets a try.
Also senseis is good but does not fit in here, with our nedle main well want to name it sometime for sure.

Regarding the mana base I will need maybe 20 lands 4 moxen diamond (people don't play this gem...) and 1 c.mox.

Still 4 b.wish... theyre so good...

Please let me know your thinkngs!!
Need to make top 8 with this soon!

@TheInfamous...a and rest:
E.Tutor must be played as 4 of in this decks as a concept.
I think both A.Find and Noxius revival are shit copared to b.wish.
First thisnk on the creatures you really need to kill: 2 lacaky maybe and d.confidant, this last is important, for the rest, dont mind as we have moat OR humility plus x to win.
Conculsion: terminus and swords can be useless, you simply need to focus on key cards and make them resolve.
The b.wish->replenish for that reason has been so great in those games, of course I can win with b.whish->terminus - scroll rack abeyance. but that is simply not the direction of the deck.

And another point to make it clear:
About Path vs Swords:
With path opponent choose to put a land or not, tha means the following:
The opponent has the decision so this is only usefull if:
1. The opponent does not know what your playing
2. The opponent is a bad player
3. The opponent will going to put an extra land TO:
3.1. Almost win the game because is a good player
3.2. Almost lost the game because is a bad player. This is the usefull one.

Thats simple.
I'll take Swords always as a 4 of, the option of leaving a player an extra land in legacy is no comparable with the for sure gain x life.

My personal Point, I started to test the deck with no swords and no path and still dont regret them, again, they re not the direction.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-31-2012, 02:59 PM

Both:
Elspeth I think its the key card, charbelcher is good, but it makes the deck basic land dependant.
Elspeth however contributes with 3 of the roles we need - Protection to all enchantments and a way to kill opponent avoiding humility + moat, we can consider the card as a card that is difficult to kill. Maybe 2 is the number.

Wanting Humility + Moat + Elspeth is just greedy. Moat is itself kind of a crapshoot. Also getting to ultimate Elspeth is tricky as Hell.

Also Charbelcher really doesn't make you basic land dependent, you don't have to kill them all in one go with the card.

Also senseis is good but does not fit in here, with our nedle main well want to name it sometime for sure.

Having redundancy on Rack effects is pretty important. If you need to name Top with Needle, just shuffle it away with Scroll Rack.

@TheInfamous...a and rest:
E.Tutor must be played as 4 of in this decks as a concept.

This sounds more like an article of faith than anything else. Why? Drawing multiple Tutors is miserable.

I think both A.Find and Noxius revival are shit copared to b.wish.
First thisnk on the creatures you really need to kill: 2 lacaky maybe and d.confidant, this last is important, for the rest, dont mind as we have moat OR humility plus x to win.
Conculsion: terminus and swords can be useless, you simply need to focus on key cards and make them resolve.
The b.wish->replenish for that reason has been so great in those games, of course I can win with b.whish->terminus - scroll rack abeyance. but that is simply not the direction of the deck.

I have no idea what you're talking about or how you're trying to win if you don't have creature removal. This deck is useless without creature removal. Absolutely worthless.

And another point to make it clear:
About Path vs Swords:
With path opponent choose to put a land or not, tha means the following:
The opponent has the decision so this is only usefull if:
1. The opponent does not know what your playing
2. The opponent is a bad player
3. The opponent will going to put an extra land TO:
3.1. Almost win the game because is a good player
3.2. Almost lost the game because is a bad player. This is the usefull one.

Thats simple.
I'll take Swords always as a 4 of, the option of leaving a player an extra land in legacy is no comparable with the for sure gain x life.

My personal Point, I started to test the deck with no swords and no path and still dont regret them, again, they re not the direction.

If your opponent is choosing not to gain a land with Path, then it's drawback-free removal, whereas StP would have a drawback

Pelikanudo

08-31-2012, 04:15 PM

K-Run

08-31-2012, 04:42 PM

@Pelikanudo:

I don't know if Maverick is popular at your place, but you have no outs if Gaddock Teeg hits the battlefield before Humility.

If you play Plateaus, you should play Charbelcher as well. Plateau being a Mountain, belcher deals twice the damage...

Anyway, here's what I'll be playing tomorrow. I also added a link to my current decklist in my signature. You can always refer to that page for the most recent updates.

Main deck:

2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Pithing Needle
1x Cursed Totem
4x Mox Diamond
4x Scroll Rack
1x Wildfield Borderpost
1x Batterskull

3x Land Tax
2x Humility
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Luminarch Ascension

15x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Crystal Vein
1x Mistveil Plains

1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Tithe
3x Noxious Revival
4x Terminus

Sideboard:

1x Rule of Law
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Jester's Cap
1x Humility
1x Greater Auramancy (I had a free slot; anything better than that?)
1x Luminarch Ascension
1x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Banishing Stroke

Due to metagame considerations, I decided to run Cursed Totem over Grafdigger's Cage in the main deck.

I'll let you know how the tournament went on Sunday.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-31-2012, 05:08 PM

@TheInfamous
Regarding to
This sounds more like an article of faith than anything else. Why? Drawing multiple Tutors is miserable.And the rest of things.:

It is ok for you, for me at least I prefer to draw as many E.tutors as I can. So stop discussing.
As I said E.Tutor is the card the deck is based around, in conjuntion with Tax and S.Rack and Silver Bullets. Simple and Easy.
Well, sorry but I don't see your ideas of the deck in that direction. Don't disccus with me in that direction. Thanks anyway.

@TaxMan and K-Run still awaiting your ideas about above.

Ummm, no. I do not think people really are grokking how this discussion forum thing works; I don't stop discussing something just because you inexplicably want me to.

Tutor is bad in multiples, and stuffing your deck full of 1x silver bullets is equally bad. You don't want to be drawing a bunch of card disadvantage and useless chff, even with Scroll Rack.

@K- Run:

Have you tested Lens?

Alternate ideas along the same lines as Borderpost/Crystal Vein:

Lotus Vale
Remote Farm
Ruins of Trokair

(nameless one)

08-31-2012, 07:12 PM

@ E-Tutor:

IBA runs 2 and not 4 is because he also runs Sensei's Divining Top.

@K-Run:

Good luck tomorrow. I'm gonna be greedy and expect a tournament report :P

K-Run

09-01-2012, 06:52 PM

Match 1 vs Maverick
Game 1: I do not draw either Swords or Terminus.
Game 2: I misplay, not casting Humility when I can to keep my land count under opponent's. Gaddock Teeg then enters the battlefield and I'm unable to Terminus.

0-1-0

Match 2 vs Maverick
Game 1: I easily win.
Game 2: I misplay, not ordering my cards correctly with Top.
Game 3: Time is called early on.

0-1-1

Match 3 vs... Maverick
Game 1: Cursed Totem on 2nd turn proves to be enough.
Game 2: My Karakas keeps Thalia out of play and my opponent lacks mana.

Match 4 vs High Tide
Game 1: I think I might have my best possible main deck board vs High Tide (Mistveil Plains and Scroll Rack) but my opponent has Blue Sun's Zenith to kill my dream.
Game 2: I have my hoser (Rule of Law) countered. My deck seemed irrelevant in this matchup.

1-2-1

Some thoughts:

- I really liked having Tithe.
- I think I need a better sideboard vs High Tide, i.e. more Leylines + Greater Auramancy.
- Luminarch Ascension was good too.
- I need to learn to play correctly.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-02-2012, 10:52 AM

Rule of Law and Ethersworn Canonist are much, much more effective against High Tide than Leylines.

TaxMan

09-02-2012, 04:51 PM

I have some new modifications. I have feeling that deck is still more and more consistent...

EDIT: I have tested today a I did some updates before tournament (* = changed)

DECKLIST v4.1:
Mana Base (17+5+2)
11x Plains
*2x Wasteland (removed 1x Mistveil Plains & 1x Kor Haven)
4x City of Traitors
3x Mox Diamond
2x Chrome Mox
*2x Tithe (new added, seems to be good, but more testing needed...)

Kill (2)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (in 4 tournaments I have used Elspeth only once to kill opponent...) :smile:
1x Luminarch Ascension (good kill condition under scepter/chant lock, solitary, moat)

*3x Land Tax (one removed for 2nd Tithe based on K-Run's list...)
3x Scroll Rack
1x Humility
1x Moat
1x Zuran Orb

1x Story Circle
2x Isochron Scepter
4x Orim's Chant
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ghostly Prison
4x Enlightened Tutor
3x Swords to Plowshares (I have decided not to use PtE anymore as it was very often disadvantage for me when opponent put another land and accelerated...)
1x Pithing Needle
2x Noxious Revival (very good with Terminus, killed Elspeth, Wastelands, ...)
*3x Terminus (with Revival's perfect, I have completely removed Wrath of God)
*1x Ethersworn Canonist (1x Powder Keg moved to sideboard, hope Canonist will be better in my metagame...)
*1x Sensei's Diving Top - Based on K-run's post below (removed Solitary Confinement (used only rarely))

Sibeboard:
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Pithing Needle
1x Cursed Totem
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Surgical Extraction
*1x Powder Keg (removed from main deck)
*1x Ethersworn Canonist (one moved to main deck)
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
*1x Aura of Silence (one removed for 2md Timely Reinforcements)
*2x Timely Reinforcements (new added, not yet tested)

From big list of possible maindeck cards I'm thinking about to test maindeck some of these cards after finishing with testing of the current new added cards. What do you think about these cards and please share your experience with them:

Mana Base & Lands: (possible remove -1x Kor Haven, -2x Wasteland, maybe -1x Plains - how many Plains is needed for Land Tax (minimum)??? )
- 1-2x Tithe
- 3-4x Scrying Sheets + SnowCovered Plains
- 1x Serra's Sanctum - I have tested a bit, but seems to me not very helpfull in early game phase as my enchantments are mana expensive, so I had usually Sanctum for 0-2mana. In late game it was good, but I had often already everything under control... I vintage I never played Sanctum too, I used to play Tolarian Academy. With moxen, zuran and another cheap artifacts great from beginning to pay my mana intensive cards (charbelcher, jester's cap, decree of justice, ...)
- 4th Mox Diamond

Kill Conditions:
- 1x Mistveil Plains (maybe backup kill condition, but comes into play tapped...)
- 2x Painter's Servant + 2x Grindstone
- 2x Batterskull (only without Mystic...) (5mana is too much for me I think)

Searching & other:
- 1-2x Sensei's Diving Top (not sure about benefit as I have scroll rack/enlig.tutors...)
- 2x Abeyance

Board Control:
- 2x Suppression Fileld
- 1x Aura of Silence (maybe I will put one copy back to main, but now it seems to work without...)
- 1x Cataclysm
- 3-4x Mana Tithe
- 1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
- 1x Nevermore
- 1x Karakas
- 1x Maze of Ith
- 1x Ethersworn Canonist
- 1x Porphyry Nodes

@Pelikanudo
- Reito Lantern is good, but it is one slot which I don't have, so Mistveil Plains is better for me
- I have removed Charbelcher as it was a bit slow with non-basic land I play now. I don't know about you guys, but I usually win game one not by killing opponent, but because he resign. :laugh: Sometimes it seems that I really don't need any kill conditions... So I have decided to cut my kill conditions to minimum. Currently for me Elspeth+Luminarch is enough (plus very rarely scroll rack or scepter+noxious). While Argivian Find in main I prefered to play Charbelcher over Elspeth as I had no chance to take it back from graveyard but Noxious solved this issue...)

Some tips for discussion to all of you:
- is 4x Scroll Rack not too much?
- is Sensei's really needed?
- is 4th Mox Diamond needed?
- is Solitary Confinement needed?
- is Serra's Sanctum needed?
- is Wasteland needed?
- is Abeyance needed?
- what is your experience with Batterskull?
- have some of you tested Kor Haven/Maze of Ith?
- have some of you tested Mana Tithe?

In next 3 weeks I'm going to play in 4 local and 2 bigger tournaments so I will have chance to test much more than before.

K-Run

09-03-2012, 11:46 AM

- is 4x Scroll Rack not too much?

No. This card is central to the strategy (Terminus).

- is Sensei's really needed?

In my opinion, yes. Resolving a Top is easier than a Scroll Rack and it makes it possible to Terminus during an opponent's turn. I'm thinking about adding a 3rd to my decklist, actually.

- is 4th Mox Diamond needed?

Possibly not. This is the card I might cut for the 3rd Top.

- is Solitary Confinement needed?

I'm not sure. It's super strong in the right context but unless you have the Tax/Rack engine going, it's only a destroyable Time Walk. I think a deck packing four of these with A. Finds, Skull of Orm and tricks like that might be feasible, but this would be another deck altogether.

- is Serra's Sanctum needed?

No. Too conditional.

- is Wasteland needed?

I don't think so. I use Pithing Needle when needed.

- is Abeyance needed?

Cool card, but I don't have the slots for something like that. I'd play Orim's Chant over this anyway.

- what is your experience with Batterskull?

It's been good so far! The only downside is the mana cost. That's why I went from 2 copies to a single one.

- have some of you tested Kor Haven/Maze of Ith?

Since we don't have a way to fetch for these early on, it's rather weak I'd say. I'd rather kill the attacking creature.

- have some of you tested Mana Tithe?

I think this card is too conditional. I didn't test it though.

deakmana

09-04-2012, 07:34 PM

Been working on this for a while now, and have done 2 local tourneys and a big 1.5 with probably 40+ players. List I ran was mono-white. I've gone 2-2 every time sadly (EDIT: Big 1.5 was 2-2-1). Been a couple weeks since I last played it so I'll just list experiences with a few decks and individual cards.
List I ran was:

1xKarakas
17x Plains

3xPath to Exile
4xSwords to Plowshare
4xOrim's Chant
3xArgivian Find
3xEnlightened Tutor

3xIsochron Scepter
1xGoblin Charbelcher
1xIvory Tower
1xPithing Needle
3xScroll Rack
2xZuran Orb

2xHumility
1xMoat
2xAura of Silence
3xRuned Halo
4xLand Tax

2xElspeth

SB:
1xKarmic Justice
2xAura of Silence
2xRelic of Progenitus
1xTormod's Crypt
4xMana Tithe
2xSilence
1xGrafdigger's Cage
1xArgivian Find

Show & Tell: Played against 3 of these, amazingly ran into 3 different versions. Sneak/Show, Show/Omniscience, Show/HiveMind. I won once having Orim's chant on a stick + 3 more chant effects in hand, but other than that got smoked. Against Hive and Omniscience both first games they Show & Tell'd and I'm like "Cool I have Karakas/Humility.....oh...thats a Hive Mind/Omniscience... :( "

Played Canadian Thresh 3 times. Went 2-0 against one of them, went 1-2 against other 2. Runed Halo's were pretty useful here, and often ate a pierce for something else. This matchup really made me want a 4th Argivian Find. Really nice against this. Also the high mana curve really hurt here. I hated drawing Elspeths in my hands, Aura of Silence was terrible of course, as was Pithing Needle. Really wanted a CoP green or something in board.

NIC Fit: Played against 3 of these and went 2-1 each time. Not a bad matchup at all. Liliana doesn't do much at all against this, and Runed Halo makes her pretty much worthless. I Pithing Needled Deeds and brought Karmic Justice from board. Humilty + Moats pretty easy to get against it and Vet Explorer can help too. Most importantly Chant/Stick is auto win.

Elves: 2-0 Humilty/Moated and Chant/Stick. Stalled with swords and stuff

TES 1-2 Felt I could have pulled this off but had to mull to 5 two times, just some tough luck drawing lots of lands or silence effects with no lands :( Had one Leyline of Sanctity main at the time I played against this and tutored for it game 1.

Maverick: Played against it twice. 2-1 each time. Chant/Stick was auto win as was Humility Moat.

Lands: Won 2-0. Land Tax was always active, Belchered fairly early both games

U/W Miracle: 1-1-1 Pretty fun match, close games. He won game two from a sideboard Purify o_o and a followup Entreat the Angels. He did have Serenities but never got them active because of Aura of Silences (which were very nice this matchup) Cant remember how I won game 1, pretty sure I double orim's chanted into a Belcher or Isochron + Orim's.

Can't remember other games.

Individual card thoughts:
1. I did not like Elspeth. I got her ult off once vs NIC Fit once and still lost. Charbelcher was the superior win condition by far. Her mana cost really makes things difficult.
2. Runed Halos were mixed bags. Most games they were mediocre and almost always named a creature in play. As I mentioned, pretty nice against Canadian Thresh.
3. I always wanted Argivian Finds.
4. Ivory Tower is cool, but worthless. While I got it active a couple games, its really situational.
5. Belcher was fantastic, never had any issues running just 1 and it never let me down.
6. Scepter/Chant got me many stupid wins and scepter is good at baiting counters. However it is clunkier than I would like.
7. Not having saclands/sol lands wasn't an issue. I almost always chose to draw first which was enough to be one land behind. Show & Tell was the exception, not that it helped.Canadian Thresh had no trouble with this of course.
8. No Wrath effects for me. I had 1 Wrath in earlier and 4 mana was too much most of the time. Terminus I dislike more because it relies on Scroll Rack, otherwise its even worse than the Wrath.
9. Aura of Silence: I really did like having these against some matchups, but doesn't deserve a maindeck slot. Too dead against a lot of stuff.

Currently working on RBW Parfait with Duress & Burning Wish mb, with Gemstone Mine, Undiscovered Paradise, and Mox Diamonds for mana fixers. I like it a lot so far and if I can nail it down a bit more & if there's interest I'll post it.

berksowl

09-10-2012, 07:33 PM

Someone was playing this deck at SCG Portland yesterday. I didn't see much of what was going on, aside from the last few minutes of a match that went to time. The parfait player then whiffed with Charbelcher, getting his opponent to 1 life before the Turn 5 made it a draw.

Regardless, pretty rad to see this deck at a big event. I'm curious to hear how it did.

TaxMan

09-11-2012, 03:19 AM

Hi Guys, I haven't seen any post here during last week. No new experience, tips or decklist updates?

K-Run

09-11-2012, 12:14 PM

Hi Guys, I haven't seen any post here during last week. No new experience, tips or decklist updates?

There are no Legacy tournaments in Quebec City I can play in until October. I might play on Tuesdays though. I'll let you know if I have anything new to share.

(nameless one)

09-11-2012, 06:11 PM

Hey Raphael. Today, I was bored and was playtesting against Goblins. We played for 4 games and went 2-2. Not sure what I'm doing wrong by I would expect it will be a blowout in favour of Parfait.

Krenko was just a beating.

Granted, I wasn't running Cursed Totem (I am running Humility instead). Any advice on outside of the "Plow the Lackey" sermon?

Also, I was checking your list. What's with the changes and what are you trying to improve in? (-1 Land Tax, Tithe and the rest).

Thanks man. I wish I can help right now with the deck's development (as I was intending to) but I've been busy.

K-Run

09-11-2012, 10:43 PM

Granted, I wasn't running Cursed Totem (I am running Humility instead). Any advice on outside of the "Plow the Lackey" sermon?

I haven't played vs Goblins in a while, but I'd say having 4 wrath effects would help a lot. What killed you exactly?

Also, I was checking your list. What's with the changes and what are you trying to improve in? (-1 Land Tax, Tithe and the rest).

The deck needs a way to Tax more efficiently. Land Tax is best played when your opponent already has more lands than you. However, there are many many ways to make the land count even (opponent wastelands his own land, Quirion Ranger, etc.). An opponent won't restrict himself if Land Tax isn't in play. Tithe allows to get a land and to shuffle in any circumstances. It's less powerful than Land Tax but more reliable.

Luminarch Ascension is there to help winning vs control pre-board.

The Cursed Totem came in to help vs Maverick, which is a very popular deck around here.

TaxMan

09-12-2012, 05:01 AM

I played yesterday in small local tournament against some not very common decks:
1st round DeadGuy Stoneblade 1-2, but it should be 1-1 (game1 scepter-chant, game2 I had bad cards and he was to fast, game3 first turn scepter-chant followed by disenchant...and than my misplay in last added turn!),
2nd round Infect 1-2 (game1 he was to fast, I think kill turn 2 or 3. game2 first turn swords, 3rd turn moat and than wasteland to nexus. killed by luminarch. game3 first turn scepter-chant followed by Viridian Corrupter. next turn Sensei, than topdeck 2x Swords but always had instant protection...)
3rd round MonoBlack 2-0 (easy game. first game moat, than scepter/chant. second game first turn scepter/swords)

In general I can say, that game one is very often win for me (scepter-chant lock), but 2nd game: serenity/disenchat/krosan grip, ... Scepter/Chant is usually destroyd and it slows me down a lot.

I have tested Tithe last week and played it yesterday in local tournament. I fully aggre with K-Run, it is very good for taxing and especially shuffle effect is great under sensei/rack.

Sensei is good too, but you need any land tax/shuffle effect to make it better.

As K-Run wrote above, with Land is sometimes hard to tax, so what I see as an issue is lack of shuffling effect in my deck...

My experience with Ghostly prison is that it is not very good by itself as 1-2 creatures can still attack (those with equip, ...). I have discussed with one my friend and we have agreed my new test change should be 2-3x Armagedon main. I have tested today a bit and it seems to be very very good. armagedon/prison/luminarch was great. or maybe catalcysm?

My question to all of you:
What is you experience with Oblivion Ring. I still play it due to the flexibility, but it is more expensive than Swords or Needle and is not doing much more. I really hate her hide ability, as after disenchant/or board reset (serenity, ...) it is only great shield for opponents card! Is it really needed 1-2x or it is not needed anymore? Do we have better choice for it? I have searched Parfait's builds and I see tendency in last 2months to reduce/cut her amount in decklists...

K-Run

09-12-2012, 01:25 PM

What is you experience with Oblivion Ring. I still play it due to the flexibility, but it is more expensive than Swords or Needle and is not doing much more. I really hate her hide ability, as after disenchant/or board reset (serenity, ...) it is only great shield for opponents card! Is it really needed 1-2x or it is not needed anymore? Do we have better choice for it? I have searched Parfait's builds and I see tendency in last 2months to reduce/cut her amount in decklists...

Oblivion Ring is just more flexible than other disenchant effects (deals with creatures and Planeswalkers) and is a tutorable anti-creature. You can always side it out game 2 for more dedicated removal.

Armaggeddon? I guess it makes the deck more Prison-esque. It's a bit situational, as you don't want creatures on board unless you have Ghostly Prison out.

(nameless one)

09-12-2012, 02:53 PM

I run both Ghostly Prison and Armageddon in my current build. I think it suffers from Solitary Confinement syndrome in this deck as they are awesome but only under certain circumstances. Also, the problem with going prison is that the deck just doesn't have enough win conditions to steal certain wins.

I think the deck right now is at the verge of being "established". With Raphael constantly working on it, along with ideas from TaxMan and Pelikanudo and insights from IBA. Personally, I think the deck needs the right mix of cheap disruption and late game bombs while operating under a low number of lands.

Also, proper play is needed for the deck. I find that most of the games I lose, I try to get Tax/Rack going without real means to control the board. I think the deck should play like Quinn where you're going to try to control the board early on and use the Tax/Rack engine late game when you're down on cards.

This theory is evident with Raphael's (K-Run) reduction of Land Taxes in the main.

TaxMan

09-12-2012, 05:03 PM

what about adding 1-2x fetch lands for better shuffle effects. i hope it makes rack/sensei much better. On saturday we have bigger tournament. I will test 2x fetch land (2 wastelands removed) and 2x armageddon (if i get them untill saturday).

Also maybe I will put 4th Scroll Rack, but than I have to remove last Oblivion Ring - this i'm really not sure...

my next question is, most of parfait decklists play (without armageddon) 2x ghostly prison? we run only 1x humility and 1x moat and it is usually enough as we have 4x enl.tutor, so why 2x ghostly prison? by itself it is not so great, you need another card for lock (maze of ith, kor haven, armageddon, story circle, ...)

mordraid

09-12-2012, 06:46 PM

K-Run

09-12-2012, 09:11 PM

Ghostly prison by itself is usually not enought to stop completely an opponent. However, when you add-up the ghostly prison effects, they can become very effectives. 4 mana becomes a lot to pay for attacking with only 1 creature.

That's exactly why it's bad: you need many copies on board for it to matter.

(nameless one)

09-12-2012, 09:33 PM

I also have removed Ghostly Prison from my list. Although mine has a singleton Solitary Confinement.

I find that Solitary Confinement is only helpful when you have the Tax/Rack engine going backed up with Zuran Orb to make sure you always have less lands than your opponent.

@K-Run:

When you first conceived Parfait, what was the Vintage meta like? I think one of the problems I have is I'm trying to port old-lists into what we have now. Times have changed since 2000. While the engine is still relevant, I feel that half of the pieces of the deck isn't as relevant.

Don't get me wrong, I think the deck is almost there, but I needs something that we haven't really thought of.

John Cox

09-12-2012, 09:54 PM

when parfait was relevant, Zoo was a deck, The draw engine of choice was ophidian, and morphling was a scary thing to behold.

K-Run

09-12-2012, 10:13 PM

When you first conceived Parfait, what was the Vintage meta like? I think one of the problems I have is I'm trying to port old-lists into what we have now. Times have changed since 2000. While the engine is still relevant, I feel that half of the pieces of the deck isn't as relevant.

Don't get me wrong, I think the deck is almost there, but I needs something that we haven't really thought of.

I built it to win vs Sligh. Then I tweaked it to deal with other matchups. Mono-b was played a lot and Land Tax was just an incredible card vs it. Mono-u was also there, but at that time it had lots of trouble dealing with Sacred Mesa if it resolved. The Workshop decks were more aggro than prison. Green didn't have Naturalize at that time too. I also ran Blood Moon, as good fetchlands didn't exist.

Enchantments were way harder to deal with. Nowadays, good answers exist in most colors, making games 2 and 3 harder to win. You don't win by resolving your silver bullet as you used to. That's the challenge of today's Parfait: how can one win with silver bullets if they are not as lethal as before?

That's the rationale behind a card like Timely Reinforcement in my sideboard. It's not as powerful as Moat, but it is way harder to deal with, in a sense. Unless something changes drastically in Magic, I expect Parfait to evolve towards a permanent-light version.

TaxMan

09-13-2012, 10:42 AM

I post my updated deck list for saturday's tournament (estimated metagame 1 : 2 : 2 control:combo:aggro). I did some changes (inspired by my & others old vintage parfaits) to make it more simple and consistent, I hope :smile:

significant changes from my last list:
removed: 2x Wasteland, 1x Mistveil Plains, 2nd Chrome Mox, 1x Luminarch Ascension, 2nd Oblivion Ring, 2nd Ghostly Prison
added: 1x Plateau, 1x Plains, 4th Mox Diamond, 3rd Tithe, 2nd Elspeth, Knight-Errant, 2x Armageddon, 1x Goblin Charbelcher, 1x Blood Moon

LEGACY PARFAIT v6.0
MANA BASE (16+5+3)
11x Plains
4x City of Traitors
1x Plateau
4x Mox Diamond (with Tithe I hope I can affrod to have 4x Mox)
1x Chrome Mox
3x Tithe (two were good, so three should be much better :wink: - I tested 2x fetch lands, but it was not good for Charbelcher and under City of traitors on board)
KILL (3)
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (2nd added for Luminarch which was very good, but mostly after lock scepter or prison/armageddon lock. Elspeth is very strong before lock, so opponent must react... only issue is that she is not tutorable...)
1x Goblin Charbelcher (in previos version it was removed as I played lots of non-basic lands. now with armageddon I have removed Wastelands, 3x Tithe added too, so kill time was reduced. Usually it takes me 4-6 turns to kill before strong taxing. after taxing it is still 3-4 turns, but that's ok.

(as a fast kill I have tested Painter's Servant+Grindstone, it is excellent, but too fragile and 4 slots...)

ENGINE
3x Land Tax
3x Scroll Rack (still thinking about 4th scroll rack...)
1x Zuran Orb
LOCKS
2x Isochron Scepter
4x Orim's Chant
1x Humility
1x Moat
2x Armageddon (not too much tested, but hope it will be good, maybe +1x in future)
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Blood Moon (not yet tested, lot's of multicolor decks in legacy metagame. I hope my red mana sources are enough to cast it in first turns)
BOARD CONTROL
1x Oblivion Ring (thinking about to remove completely...)
1x Pithing Needle
3x Swords to Plowshares (not sure if 3 or 4)
2x Terminus (is good, but not in opening hand :rolleyes: still not 100% sure that it's better than Wrath of God. 4mana is no problem in 3rd turn, so not too big difference from terminus (as you almost never want to play terminus in turn 1or2) and no need to flip via Scroll Rack when on opening hand)
1x Powder Keg (maybe one more sword, but for now I will keep it like it is)
SEARCH
2x Noxious Revival
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Sensei's Divining Top

SIDEBOARD:
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Abolish
1x Aura of Silence
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Story Circle
1x Noxious Revival

Your experience, tips and comments are welcome... and I fully agree with (nameless one) - PROPER PLAY, I still do often mistakes in my play...

EDIT: sideboard added, main change -1x Ghostly Prison, +1x Blood Moon

Hisa

09-14-2012, 04:21 PM

Powder Keg is strictly inferior to Ratchet Bomb, right? I'm also not sold on Chant / Scepter. How did you like it?

TaxMan

09-14-2012, 04:31 PM

Powder Keg is strictly inferior to Ratchet Bomb, right? I'm also not sold on Chant / Scepter. How did you like it?

yes, I'm thinking about Ratched Bomb. But Bomb for 1 will destroy my Land Tax too. I have to test

Scepter/Chant is excellent in first game. it locks 80% of the field. After sideboard it is quiet week, but I will keep scepter in my list...

TaxMan

09-14-2012, 05:07 PM

K-Run

09-15-2012, 02:05 AM

to all: what do you think about red splash. I would like to test it next weeks... I think red should be the best color to add.

I would like to know your opinion to this cards in current legacy metagame:
Blood Moon
Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast
Ajani Vengeant
Gamble
Lightning Helix
Firestom
Pyroclasm
Goblin Trenches
Vexing Shusher
Reroute
Burning Wish

I'm not convinced about a red splash. Back in the days, Blood Moon was really strong but the advent of fetchlands made it much less lethal. In my opinion, the cards you list add nothing to the strategy because they don't solve any problem a mono-white version couldn't. I'm also concerned about the availability of red mana. You would need Mox Diamonds, Plateaus and Tithe to make it work.

TaxMan

09-17-2012, 07:35 AM

last tournament: 1-4
Match 1 Melforks
Game1 (1-0): tax/rack/orb engine on board, needle - Coralhelm and Moat on 6life, than Charbelcher
Game2 (1-1): early Vial, Coralhelm, turn 2 Chalice for 1, ...
Game3 (1-2): turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Chalice for 1, later I reset board with Wrath of God, but he killed me with Mutavaults

Match 2 Affinita
Game1 (0-1): he was to fast, I put Moat but he had Vault Skirge + Cranial Plating...
Game2 (0-2): I put Elspeth and Charbelcher, he had Tezzeret and few creaturs. Charbecher to Tezzert for 0! (topdeck land) and Elspeth tokens were blocked. Killed by Tezzeret ultimate, however he had in play Cranial Plating too

Match 3 Aggro Elves
Game1 (1-0): scepter chant lock than Charbelcher
Game2 (2-0): moat and charbelcher

Match 4 Combo Elves
Game1 (0-1): I have tutored for Humility, so he had to start the combo with big risk as he knew that next turn Humility is almost over for him...
Game2 (0-2): I had Orim's Chant and Moat in hand. his quirion sworded, next quirion stopped with needle. his natural order for Progenitus, I put Moat but he had Krosan Grip...

Match 5 MUD
Game1 (0-1): early Chalice for 1, than Lodestone Golems, ...
Game2 (0-2): I sworded Welder, he put Chalice for 1 again, I reset game with Terminus, put Moat and stabilized on 5 life. than Chalice for 2. With Sensei I put on top of library Humility and Abolish.... But he put Kuldotha Forgemaster, sacrificied 3 artifacts for Steel Hellkite and put Lightning Greaves. game over

Lessons learned:
- Chalice of the Void for 1 is really horrible!
- you can NEVER rely on Goblin Charbelcher, even if you need only one damage :mad:
- I usually need only one more turn to stabilize the board
- what this deck is really missing is lifegain!!! :rolleyes:
- 3x tithe is too much, sometimes I had no land in opening hand
- as K-Run mentioned above, Blood Moon is not as good as it used to be...
- Armageddon is not very effective...
- One Ghostly prison on board is almost dead card...
- Abolish is very good sideboard card
- Terminus in opening hand is really terrible

Deck modifications: (I have removed all situational cards for instant answers)
-1x Tithe +1x Plateau
-1x Plains +1x Mountain
-1x Ghostly Prison +1x Path to Exile (maybe Swords/Terminus or I will test Firestorm too)
-1x Blood Moon +1x Ajani Vengeant (can save/gain some lifepoints and stop one attacker)
-2x Armageddon +2x Lightning Helix (lifegain, I used to play it in my specter/chant extended deck in 2006 and it was excellent)

red mana sources: 4x mox diamond, 2x plateau, 1x mountain, 2x tithe, 3x land tax. after testing it seems enough. only added 1x plateau and mountain, but this will help Charbelcher too.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-17-2012, 07:42 AM

1x Oblivion Ring (thinking about to remove completely...)
3x Swords to Plowshares (not sure if 3 or 4)
2x Terminus (is good, but not in opening hand :rolleyes: still not 100% sure that it's better than Wrath of God. 4mana is no problem in 3rd turn, so not too big difference from terminus (as you almost never want to play terminus in turn 1or2) and no need to flip via Scroll Rack when on opening hand)
1x Powder Keg (maybe one more sword, but for now I will keep it like it is)

I have distilled your list down to every card capable of actually killing a creature. It is six and a half cards (counting Keg as a half.)

It is very easy in a deck like this to focus too hard on trying to do cute things and trying to shore up every conceivable matchup, so that you lose sight of the actual reason to play the deck, which should be to beat up on creatures. You are not beating up creatures very effectively right now. I mean you lost to Affinity and Merfolk.

Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. Land Tax/Rack doesn't matter for shit if you're just drawing into cutesy crap while failing to control the board.

K-Run

09-17-2012, 10:06 AM

I have distilled your list down to every card capable of actually killing a creature. It is six and a half cards (counting Keg as a half.)

It is very easy in a deck like this to focus too hard on trying to do cute things and trying to shore up every conceivable matchup, so that you lose sight of the actual reason to play the deck, which should be to beat up on creatures. You are not beating up creatures very effectively right now. I mean you lost to Affinity and Merfolk.

Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. Land Tax/Rack doesn't matter for shit if you're just drawing into cutesy crap while failing to control the board.

Exactly.

@Taxman:

In my testing, running Timely Reinforcements was very good vs any creature-based deck. I encourage you to try it. It buys you time.

You can see the limits of Moat. A board sweeper is usually much better.

I run Banishing Stroke vs Chalice and Counterbalance. Abolish is good as well. Powder Keg is an option too.

Question to everyone:

If you checked the Return to Ravnica spoiler, you may have spotted the following card:

Rest in Peace 1w
Enchantment Rare
When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.
If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.

What about running this over Tormod's Crypt/Grafdigger's Cage and a single Helm of Obedience for a pseudo-instant kill? Obviously, the helm is worst than Charbelcher when used alone, but the kill seems more consistent and way faster. Anyway, this is only an idea I had when checking the spoiler...

TaxMan

09-17-2012, 10:33 AM

I will test Timely Reinforcements tomorrow in local tournament.

New potential card: 1x Horizontal Conopy
I have tested this card today and it seems to me very good.
White mana in early game, draw a card in late game and when land tax in play you can reduce your lands... what do you think?

(nameless one)

09-17-2012, 12:40 PM

I like Rest in Peace, just the fact that not only it provides utility, it also shrinks a lot of the format's beaters and can provide another win condition (along with Helm of Obedience)

There's another card that caught my eye:

Soul Tithe :1::w:

Enchantment - Aura

Enchant non land permanent

At the beginning of the upkeep of that enchanted permanent's controller, that player sacrifices it unless he or she pays X where X is its converted mana cost.

It might sound janky but it helps Land Tax active, deals with permanents when your opponent is down, can be ETutored for, can be recurred by Argivian Find, and can deal with all non-land permanent.

It can be fit in more prison-based Parfait.

TaxMan

09-18-2012, 04:38 PM

I have modified my decklist after last tournament and your comments and I finished today on 2nd place. I put more creature kills and removed conditional cards, now I have 10-11 creature kills: 4x Swords, 2x Terminus, 1x Wrath of God, 1x Oblivion Ring, 2x Lightning Helix, 1x Ajani Vengeant. I put one Moat and Humility into Sideboard.

Match1 (Elves):
game1 (1-0): early Humility, than Elspeth, next turn Terminus, than Moat...
game2 (2-0): 1st turn Canonist got Krosan Grip. Natural Order stopped by Humility, than Wrath of God and Elspeth.

Match2 (Belcher)
game1 (0-1): I stopped 2storms in early turns with Orim's chants, after several turns he got mana for Charbelcher + LED...
game2 (1-1): massive sideboard (in: 4x Leyline, 2x Canonist, 1x Needle, 1x Keg, 1x Moat, 1x Wrath og God, 1x Abolish, 1x Aura of Silence). first turn Canonist, second E.Tutor for needle. Canonist damage race stopped by Tinder Wall. Than I put Leyline and Elpseth. His Burning Wish for Shattering Spree. He destroeyd Canonist and Needle and killed Elspeth with Charbelcher. He stopped on 2 lifes. I killed him with Lightning Helix.
game3 (2-1): first turn storm for 6goblins. I put Needle and than Moat in turn3. Than Scepter with imprinted Lightning Helix.

Match 3 (Standstill Counter-Top)
game1: He put 1st turn Top, I have taxed several times. maybe 10 turn I draw only dead cards. Than he put 6 4/4 angels. One killed with Swords, but my 2x terminus and wrath of god were canceled
game2: his top stopped with needle. than long time nothing. I tried to put Elspeth and Charbelcher, but both were canceled. Hi put Jace, in my turn I put Scepter with Helix but it got Needle next turn. Hi Disenchanted my Needle, than he put Counterbalance and killed me with Jace.

Is there any chance to beat Counter-Top? I think this is one of the worst Matchups.

I can say that Lightning Helix was very good. I didn't have chance to test Ajani or Timely Reinforcements in play yet. Horizon Conopy was as well ok.

Pelikanudo

09-19-2012, 07:30 AM

Hi all

The deck now beats mainly:
- Merfolk
- Miracle
- Maverick
- Sneak Show
- Still in testing phase vs canadian, due to increased of non b. lands and useless of l. tax this match up is still tough, althouth with the pyroblasts effects can be winnable if the bombs come in.

About REB Effects In general
The REB effects is gold in Blue match ups and for the rest it is not, but the deck plays so ma ny useless cards for so many match ups that I think we can fit in here as ti serves to prevent threats from being countered mainly, so REB effects are for me and n the current meta keys in a deck like this. abeyance is too slow in that role and orims is card disadvantage, althotuh, orims serves to other roles,
therefore having in mind the meta and REB effects they're not that bad and for the rest of Match ups we simply will find the appropiate Key card.
Thats mainly the argument to play or not REB effects, I can say that if you play them you need them 6 or greater to be effective, as in conjuntion with Auras will make the bc.balance match ups incredible winnable.

Archetypes on which REB is good (merfolks, canadian, seneak, reaniamator, TES, ANT, etc. and definately anything playing blue)
that was my main goal.

Some tips:

One of the Tips:
Aura of silence in 3 number is great all the time, thinking on 4 of.
With O. ring is never useless vs planeswalker or legendary non land card. important point.
It is good vs:
- Sneak Attack , omniscience and counterbalance.
- Annoying artifacts, nedle,
- Combo - A.Nauseam (TES and DDFT) - because of LEDs and petals
- Avoids cards like E.Explosives and Pernicius - preventive role.

I finally included c. moxen because:
- the number of useless cards, althouth keys in some mutch ups is big so c.moxen is gold in here.
- we need acceleration but also mana colored in first turns - for mainly auras and b.whishes, so I changed from 2 city o. traitors to 2 c.moxen.

The idea around match ups like maverick is:
- play numility ASAP and next Moat OR story circle nedle to quasaly is good also
- They can land gaddog teeg. - For gaddog teeg we have - Karakas and burning -> perish
- the match up at least in first game is sealed in a very easy way so we don't need cards like swords or terminus just accelerartion to find the keys and of course finding them same is applicable to merfolk, canadian, goblins and agro in general.

Some important point:
Beacuse of the raise of the Abrupt Dacay card, I know this will take out c.balance from the meta, (not miracle) now it will have nonsense playing c.balance if it can be destroyed somehow... you all boys need to agree with me.
So the list will need to change again, but I'm very happy with the list as it is withouth:
- Aprupt Decay and
- Rest in Peace.

Other point to discuss - Rest in Peace.
This card is great, but makes the deck not using cards like replenish (broken card) or argivian or noxius revival (other IMHO Not The Way builds), so we need to think about this:
It incorporate the Helm O Obedience Combo -here i'd like to ask is this combo stopped by progenitus or emrakul or gaeas blessing or likes?
I think from side can be ok, but the base for me is ok with elspeth and reito lantern and grfdiggers.

Some conclusions to questions done about the forum
- 4 moxen diamond is for me at least a must.
- abeyance is in deed not needed, as much as I'd like, maybe in mono W builds its needed.
- Sincerely, I don't understand why you play m. tithe and EVEN not 4 Land Tax, that is an error.
- Solitary confinement not needed its also too dependant on the engine.
- I'm thinking in adding also the 4th s.rack, it is key and you want to land it ASAP, but the idea is that the 4th is not needed because of the 4 e.tutor. 3 I think is the correct number but I'm not sure.
Regaridng to Serras santum , I first played 1 next 2 and next I take out b.moon, IMHO I'm liking more and more s. santum, it can provides lot of mana and if it at its worts in can be used once to get a large amount of mana if played well.
- Yes, to play specifically this deck you need to play it not properly -perfectly, there are lot of odds and puzzle with this, thats why I/you like it. But it can win and make top 8, that's my main goal.

Some quiestions apart from above:
- I need suggestion about the proper manabase - 9 red sources, I'm not sure if consider s. santum as a land, it gives no mana in 1 turn Please Help!!

Here you'll see the encarnation of my V.5 Parfait that can win and will win:

// Lands
2 Mountain (1)
8 [7E] Plains (4)
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
2 Plateau
2 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa

// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
3 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [AL] Reito Lantern
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [TE] Humility
4 [4E] Land Tax
3 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
1 [9E] Story Circle
3 [10E] Aura of Silence
4 [V10] Mox Diamond
3 [JGC] Orim's Chant
1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage (Edit: Next Replacement likely Rest In Peace)
1 [CMD] Oblivion Ring
3 [IA] Pyroblast
3 [IA] R.E.B.
2 Chrome Mox
2 Elspeth Knigh E. (Edit: Next Replacement likely +1 Helm -1 Elspeth Not Sure)

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 3 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Ritual of Restoration
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 Swords to plshares
SB: 1 [ISD] Nevermore
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction

[I]A note recently deiscovered:
If you play 6 REB effects and Rest In Peace in main, you will be able to win Canadian much easier than with grafidiggers, so I likely include at least in side and considering to replace grafdiggers... Seriously thinking in Helm combo.
Acclaration It makes Tarmo and Nimble 0/1 and 1/1 respectively and for delver you have REB effects, apart from bombs.
Question:
If you destroy Rest In Peace with Aura: Which one is retired and wich one in gy?

mordraid

09-19-2012, 10:15 AM

Exactly.

Question to everyone:

If you checked the Return to Ravnica spoiler, you may have spotted the following card:

Rest in Peace 1w
Enchantment Rare
When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.
If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.

What about running this over Tormod's Crypt/Grafdigger's Cage and a single Helm of Obedience for a pseudo-instant kill? Obviously, the helm is worst than Charbelcher when used alone, but the kill seems more consistent and way faster. Anyway, this is only an idea I had when checking the spoiler...

Exactly what i thought when i first saw the card spoiled. It's as good as any graveyard hoser there is and you can pull out the combo out of nowhere with just 2 slots in the maindeck. Surely worth it. Two combo cards in legacy are the standard for reliability. The fact that both pieces can be tutored via enlightened tutor is a really good thing. It's also easier to pull since you can stay mono-white. If you decide to go all in with the combo you can even put some orim's chant or silence to protect it.

K-Run

09-19-2012, 10:26 AM

Some important point:
Beacuse of the raise of the Abrupt Dacay card, I know this will take out c.balance from the meta, (not miracle) now it will have nonsense playing c.balance if it can be destroyed somehow... you all boys need to agree with me.

I disagree. Many u/w lists only run Counterbalance in the sideboard. I don't think Counterbalance will disappear at all.

here i'd like to ask is this combo stopped by progenitus or emrakul or gaeas blessing or likes?

No. This is a replacement ability, so those cards never touch the graveyard.

- Sincerely, I don't understand why you play m. tithe and EVEN not 4 Land Tax, that is an error.
We're not playing Mana Tithe, we're playing Tithe.

If you destroy Rest In Peace with Aura: Which one is retired and wich one in gy?

Both are exiled.

Pelikanudo

09-19-2012, 01:30 PM

1. I disagree. Many u/w lists only run Counterbalance in the sideboard. I don't think Counterbalance will disappear at all.

No. This is a replacement ability, so those cards never touch the graveyard.

2. We're note playing Mana Tithe, we're playing Tithe.

Both are exiled.

Related To: 1.:
it is a fact that c.b. will be less played, playing it on side or not it does not worth it.
Scenario Before Abrupt Decay:
An oponnent has c.b active and you are forced to play around c.b. looking at which cost can be played, this the only resignation to a resolved c.b. IF you do not have a way to destroy it.
Scenario After Abrupt Decay:
Now the oponnent simply can keep spells until he/she reaches the Abrupt decay, therefore c.b. will only stop playing things assuming that in some time it will be destroyed. I'm not counting that Abrupt Decay is in hand, I don't count this is a card that will be played in whatever deck that plays that mana as RUG in main.
I can see the rise of Canadian Black with this new gem...
I'm a TES player and as TES player I've fallen in love with this card.
Also I don't say miracles will extinct, I think they simply won't play c.b. main.
Apoint to have in mind is that it can be redirected, so, if the miracles player prevents this, it can play cunning->misdirection or like. but this is to think too much.
I hope to convice you.

Related To: 2.:
I referred to Tithe, I'm sorry, still don't understand.
3 Land Tax and 2 Tithe? Really?
I can consider this card IN ADDITION to Land Tax, I really considered it long time ago, this card takes you plateau for example. however I don't find it in my main, if i need L.Tax I simply tutor for it and play it, I have 6 REB effects so I don't mind really the counters if I really need it as a vital.

Any help related to mana base?

Let me know K-Run.

K-Run

09-19-2012, 01:57 PM

it is a fact that c.b. will be less played, playing it on side or not it does not worth it.

Also I don't say miracles will extinct, I think they simply won't play c.b. main.

What I'm saying is that Counterbalance will still be used vs decks that do not play Abrupt Decay, i.e. Parfait.

So yes, we might see less Counterbalance, but no, it won't disappear completely, and we still have to prepare vs it.

I referred to Tithe, I'm sorry, still don't understand.
3 Land Tax and 2 Tithe? Really?

I'm trying to make the deck less Land Tax-dependent for getting mana and shuffling.

TaxMan

09-19-2012, 02:13 PM

I'm trying to make the deck less Land Tax-dependent for getting mana and shuffling.

I can confirm that Tithe is very good card. You can shuffle your library after scroll rack/sensei OR simply search for land when Land tax is inactive, it finds Plateau. I play against lots of aggro/combo decks running with minimum lands so Tax is often deactivated.

And I really like to have 1x mox diamond, 1x land and 1x tithe in hand. When opponents starts new game, he put land, so I can put mox and search with tithe for 2 lands and one of them drop and use for 1mana instants (tutor, swords, ...) and turn 2 I have 3mana! With land tax you are one turn behind because when you put first land and your opponents stays one land you cannot tax...

I have removed 1x Land Tax and 1x Plains for 2x Tithe, that's better for charbelcher too.

(nameless one)

09-26-2012, 10:02 AM

TaxMan

09-26-2012, 04:32 PM

I was in small tournament too. This time not very good result (metagame has changed from aggro/combo to control/combo), but I did a lot of testing...

My observations:
- deck is always beating Elves,
- Belcher or Storm shouldn't be an issue too,
- I have problems with Infect - it is often too fast (without Humility or Moat in play),
- UW or UB controls are very very difficult to beat at this moment for me,

Decklist changes/news:
- I have removed Horizon Canopy
- I deffinitely go with Red splash (Lightning Helix main, Pyroblasts in side)
- I removed Ajani (slow and mana intensive) for 3rd Lightning Helix. Helix is really great, lifegain was what I was missing. Under Scepter it is another kill condition. It allows me to cut Goblin Charbelcher. With non-basic lands and non-active Land Tax it was quite slow - time to kill with Scepter/Helix and Charbelcher is simillar.
- I have to agree with K-Run that Wasteland is not needed, we have Needles
- I'm testing one fetch land (Arid Mesa).
- for Charbelcher slot I added 1x Buried Ruin (not yet tested). I had feeling that I should add one more land as I run 4 Mox Diamonds.

Questions to All:
- this question is here again. Swords OR Path to Exile? When I play against control decks I would prefer rather Path over Swords as the lifegain is horrible, but in general Swords seems to be better. What do you think?

- What do you thing about 1-3 fetchlands?

- Do you have experience with Buried Ruin?

- As I use red splash, I'm going to test 1x Goblin Trenches for 1x Zuran Orb. For lifegain I have Helix and I think tokens are good against control decks or to block aggro creatures (Timely Reinforcement is better for lifegain/tokens but I use Trenches primary for sac-lands). I think Trencher is alltogether more powerfull card than Zuran Orb, but mana intenstive. Do you have experience with Trenches or what is you opinion for this switch?

- what do you think about Mikokoro, Center of the Sea?

@K-Run:
I checked lots of Legacy Parfait decklists created in last months. Average from 15 usefull decklists:
Total Mana sources: 22.7
Lands: 18
Artefact mana: 4.7 (usually 4x Mox Diamond + some use addional Chrome Moxes)

- You use 21 lands + 4x Mox Diamond + 1x Borderpost + 2x Tithe + 3x Land Tax. Is it not too much?? (I added one more, so now I run 19 lands (with one fetchland) + 4x Mox Diamond + 2x Tithe + 3x Land Tax).

- Why do you still prefer Crystal Vein over City of Traitors?
- Why do you don't like Isochron Scepter?

(nameless one)

09-26-2012, 11:56 PM

I brought my list to a tourney last weekend. I went 2-1-1, beating Elves Combo and Dredge, losing to Goblins and tying to Affinity. I thought it was a good meta call since it was one of the $4 tournaments. I ended up winning the Izzet/Golgari Duel Deck.

I'll post more later when I get home.

Here it is as promised:

First the list:

2x Batterskull
4x Extraplanar Lens
2x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Scroll Rack
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Tangle Wire

2x Humility
4x Land Tax
2x Oblivion Ring

4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Path to Exile
3x Terminus

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4x Crystal Vein
3x Ghost Quarter
13x Snow-Covered Plains

I did not bring any sideboard to this event. Why? Because I wanted to see how the deck works in general. I am not expecting to win really.

Anyways, the games:

Match 1: Affinity

Game 1 - I am on the play. I open with 3 lands along with Land Tax, E Tutor and Path to Exile. I don't recall the last card. He mulls to five. He wasn't really explosive in the beginning. I Path'd his first creature (he only played one in his first turn). I Ghost Quartered his artifact land. I then went to Tutor for Scroll Rack. I soon get Tax/Rack with only one land (because of Crystal Veins). He followed that up with Cranial Plating with enough artifact on the field but he didn't have enough mana to equip it. I took advantage of that and set up a Terminus to sweep his board. He then tries to slow-beat me with Blinkmoth Nexus. I quickly find answers with two Pithing Needles naming the Nexus and Cranial Plating. I then Tutored for Batterskull and it started cleaning up from there.

Game 2 - Keep a 3 land hand with Land Tax and Scroll Rack. He opens with three artifacts on the field. On my first turn, I topdeck a Terminus with no land in play. I Path'd soemthing, setup a Terminus but he still has Galvanic Blast and Shrapnel Blast as an answer to my answer. Eventually time is called. I tried finding my answer but the rest of robots actually cleaned it up for him.

0-0-1 (1-1)

Match 2: Goblins

Game 1 - I'm on the draw, I keep a hand with 3 lands and a Path to Exile. I Path'd his first turn Goblin Lackey, then O-ring his turn 2 Goblin Piledriver (with the help of Crystal Veins). He then followed it up with turn 3 Goblin Warchief, turn 4 Warchief and Krenko, Mob Boss. He landed another Piledriver next turn and I am dead.

Game 2 - I got greedy and kept a one land hand, along with Path and E-Tutor. My opponent mulled to 6. I respond to his first turn AEther Vial with a Tutor for Needle (I soon named Vial on that Needle when it hit the field). His Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader got him the edge he needed while I was waiting for that second land. I sure got greedy with that.

0-1-1 (1-3)

Match 3 - LEDless Dredge

Game 1 - I am on the draw and keep a hand with two lands, two Path and a Scroll Rack. My opponent goes for the turn two Careful Study with already key cards in the graveyard from the first dredge. I Path both his Ichorids but he just kept hitting the nuts. He eventually Dread Returns a Griselbrand and shortly wins. when he dredged most of his library, I noticed that he wasn't packing Lion's Eye Diamond. This made me happy since he's technically not that faster.

Game 2 - I keep a three land hand with Land Tax and Relic ( XD). I turn one Relic. He plays a turn one Putrid Imp which meets a Path the following turn. He tries to bait my Relic which I actually bite. But I followed it up with Humility, then Elspeth, then just to have the quick win, Batterskull.

Game 3 - I keep a two land hand with E-Tutor and Needle. He mulls to give. He goes for a turn 2 Breakthrough to dredge half of his library. Fortunately for me, he only dredged one Narcomoeba. He Cabal Therapys for Relic but I don't have it (yet). I then E-Tutored for it. I Needled his Cephalid Coliseum. I bomb his graveyard, then topdecked Elspeth. She soon took over.

1-1-1 (3-4)

Match 4: Elves Combo

Game 1 - I am on the play. He combos and win by turn three.

Game 2 - I mull to five with two lands and SDTop. He had a quick start with mana elves but he didn't have Glimpse of Nature for the combo win. He managed to beat me to 10 by turn 4 but with the help of SDT, I miracle set-up a Terminus. I had Land Tax but he Krosan Grips it (now having more lands than me). I responded by Tutoring for another Land Tax. I soon set up Tax/Rack. Tangle Wire slowed him down, while Humility is keeping his elves in check, all with the help of Extraplanar Lens. Batterskull soon took over.

Game 3 - I keep a hand with three plains with SDTop. He tries for a turn 2 combo but he fizzles (I guess he got too greedy). Although he did have tons of Elves on the field. I miracled a Terminus with the help of SDTop. That was then followed by Elspeth and she soon cleaned up.

2-1-1 (5-5)

Surprisingly I made top 8. We didn't play it out and put it on store credit instead. I had enough store credit to get the Duel deck.

A couple of things I want to discuss:

Extraplanar Lens - this card is awesome. It enables me to hit my early land drops and play it to turns 3-4 to keep my land count in check. I know Zuran Orb does the same thing but Lens keeps it so that I am not behind mana. I get to play my 3-4cc bombs with ease.

SDT w/ Scroll Rack - Scroll Rack is good in the early game (or with the Land Tax engine) when you have a lot of cards in your hand. In the late game, SDT is better as it actually fixes what you draw.

Relic of Progenitus vs. Grafdigger's Cage - While they almost do the same role, Relic is actually useful against Canadian Thresh. While the Cage is good against Green Zun Zenith, a lot of cards the deck has can actually answer what the Zenith searches. I find it harder to answer Nimble Mongoosed or a 4/5 Tarmogoyf that has permission back up.

Tangle Wire - This card is awesome. It taps down whatever threats my opponent is playing. If my opponent doesn't, then it taps down their lands. Either way it slows them down while it doesn't really slow me down since the deck is a permanent-based board control. I just tap down my static ability artifacts. It also makes the opponent play more lands which helps Land Tax's cause.

Path to Exile - This card is shit. I thought it would be good as it will help enable Land Tax but it ended up helping my opponents (that are running basic lands). Will definitely switch to Swords to Plowshares

Elspeth - This slot used to be Balancing Act but Balancing Act didn't really do what I wanted it to do. I was hoping that if my opponents have more permanents than me, he's screwed and if I have more, I just end up sacrificing my lands. My opponent would just sacrifice his non-lands permanents to keep Land Tax at bay while making me discard my hand since he's already played most of his cards, having less cards in hand than me. I was hoping the dream play would be: My opponent has less permanents than me but has a bigger hand, so I sacrifice my lands to get Land Tax going while making him discard his hand. I will still consider Balancing Act though against the control and combo matchup.

Also, I needed Elspeth as additional win condition, which I didn't regret for that tournament.

Ghost Quarter - My friend suggested this to me last minute. It's still debatable. I can use it to destroy my opponent's utility land (its not for mana denial), destroy my Plains to get Land Tax going or even just a shuffle effect doing for SDT and Scroll Rack. I might switch them for a Fetchlands (Flooded Strand) but I am not sure yet. Testing is definitely on the way.

As for my new list, its almost the same as above with the inclusion of RIP/Helm combo.

4x Extraplanar Lens
2x Helm of Obedience
2x Pithing Needle
4x Scroll Rack
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Tangle Wire

2x Humility
4x Land Tax
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace

4x Terminus
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4x Crystal Vein
3x Ghost Quarter
13x Snow-Covered Plains

A couple of things that I've tried and want to try:

Balancing Act - I already mentioned it above.

Cataclysm - I feel that we can abuse this card. Resolve it, sacrifice everything but a Scroll Rack, Land Tax and a land. Profit? I feel that this is more for spell-base versions of the deck (like what K-Run mentioned a couple posts back).

Lotus Vale - You have to sacrifice lands to play this. My friend suggested this to me. I told him that you just get 3 for 1-ed if your opponent Wastelands it, then he told me that I already run Pithing Needle in the main. I might try it in place of Ghost Quarter or Crystal Veins.

RIP/Helm vs. PainterStone - I like RIP/Helm better since it only replaces pieces that does almost the same thing from my list (Relic and Batterskull). Also, not being a creature makes it less vulnerable.

I was in small tournament too. This time not very good result (metagame has changed from aggro/combo to control/combo), but I did a lot of testing...

My observations:
- deck is always beating Elves,
- Belcher or Storm shouldn't be an issue too,
- I have problems with Infect - it is often too fast (without Humility or Moat in play),
- UW or UB controls are very very difficult to beat at this moment for me,

Decklist changes/news:
- I have removed Horizon Canopy
- I deffinitely go with Red splash (Lightning Helix main, Pyroblasts in side)
- I removed Ajani (slow and mana intensive) for 3rd Lightning Helix. Helix is really great, lifegain was what I was missing. Under Scepter it is another kill condition. It allows me to cut Goblin Charbelcher. With non-basic lands and non-active Land Tax it was quite slow - time to kill with Scepter/Helix and Charbelcher is simillar.
- I have to agree with K-Run that Wasteland is not needed, we have Needles
- I'm testing one fetch land (Arid Mesa).
- for Charbelcher slot I added 1x Buried Ruin (not yet tested). I had feeling that I should add one more land as I run 4 Mox Diamonds.

Questions to All:
- this question is here again. Swords OR Path to Exile? When I play against control decks I would prefer rather Path over Swords as the lifegain is horrible, but in general Swords seems to be better. What do you think?

- What do you thing about 1-3 fetchlands?

- Do you have experience with Buried Ruin?

- As I use red splash, I'm going to test 1x Goblin Trenches for 1x Zuran Orb. For lifegain I have Helix and I think tokens are good against control decks or to block aggro creatures (Timely Reinforcement is better for lifegain/tokens but I use Trenches primary for sac-lands). I think Trencher is alltogether more powerfull card than Zuran Orb, but mana intenstive. Do you have experience with Trenches or what is you opinion for this switch?

- what do you think about Mikokoro, Center of the Sea?

- Using my proposed list above: If you're primary win condition doesn't involve life, then StP is better than Path. Also, see above.

- I wouldn't mind trying Fetchlands. Right now, my "fetchland" is Ghost Quarter.

- I was thinking of Buried Ruin but with the new win-combo, I think Buried Ruin won't be needed. That is also the reason why I am not running Agrivian Find/Noxious Revival

- No comment on the red splash. Definitely needs to be tested.

- I don't like Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. The deck is supposed to be grinding the opponent down. Mikokoro is counterproductive to this cause.

TaxMan

09-27-2012, 02:52 AM

(nameless one)

09-27-2012, 08:59 AM

@ (nameless one):
so the same question to you: why do you prefer Crystal Vein over City of Traitors? I used to use Crystals but City seems to me much better as for 2mana it stays usually longer in play.

and what about Path to Exile? It is not accelerating opponent too much when you Path 1-2x time in first 1-3turns? I'm still not sure with this...

Sometimes, I like Crystal Vein and sometimes I like City of Traitors. If the deck's curve goes higher then I will switch it to City of Traitors (as it does stay longer). Right now I like Crystal Vein since it provides flexibilty. I can sacrifice it anytime. If you're still running Scepter, then I think City of Traitors is the better call.

As to Path, as I mentioned on the previous post, I hated it.

PS. I've updated my previous post.

K-Run

09-27-2012, 10:24 AM

@K-Run:
I checked lots of Legacy Parfait decklists created in last months. Average from 15 usefull decklists:
Total Mana sources: 22.7
Lands: 18
Artefact mana: 4.7 (usually 4x Mox Diamond + some use addional Chrome Moxes)

- You use 21 lands + 4x Mox Diamond + 1x Borderpost + 2x Tithe + 3x Land Tax. Is it not too much?? (I added one more, so now I run 19 lands (with one fetchland) + 4x Mox Diamond + 2x Tithe + 3x Land Tax).

- Why do you still prefer Crystal Vein over City of Traitors?
- Why do you don't like Isochron Scepter?

I won't play Legacy until next month. I plan to test (nameless one)'s decklist. However, it will probably include 2 Isochron Scepter and 4 Orim's Chant, as I think the combo needs to be better protected. I prefered Noxious Revival in previous decklists, but with the advent of RiP, Chant will be better.

(nameless one)

09-27-2012, 12:09 PM

Where do you guys check for Parfait lists? They seem inexistent at TC Decks.

Pelikanudo

09-27-2012, 01:04 PM

I can confirm that Tithe is very good card. You can shuffle your library after scroll rack/sensei OR simply search for land when Land tax is inactive, it finds Plateau. I play against lots of aggro/combo decks running with minimum lands so Tax is often deactivated.

And I really like to have 1x mox diamond, 1x land and 1x tithe in hand. When opponents starts new game, he put land, so I can put mox and search with tithe for 2 lands and one of them drop and use for 1mana instants (tutor, swords, ...) and turn 2 I have 3mana! With land tax you are one turn behind because when you put first land and your opponents stays one land you cannot tax...

I have removed 1x Land Tax and 1x Plains for 2x Tithe, that's better for charbelcher too.

Related to this, I think you will prefer 1x mox diamond, 1x land and 1x L.Tax in hand.
Well
I evolutioned the deck in a way quite different thaqn yours,
you play Tithe, not red...
So I expect to convice you one I've reached a good Top 8 with the deck.

I think I'm going to bnuild a Mono W based on Helm - rest In Peace Combo.
The fact is that the H_elm Combo is really good but makes the deck non recursive, thing I hate in a deck like this and makes also B.Wish worse as I used it for Replenish, Idilic and Restoration mainly.
But again I think that if we orient the deck to Helm we will be avocated to run the deck as White Stax, with Trinispehres and so on and the concept will change.
I think that we should run 1 or 2 rest in peace and 1 helm in a Control Parfait shell and no more.

Thinking about Helm Rest Number is Parfait?
Personal Opinions:
Grafdiggers > rest in peace (mainly because of costs, a cost 2 vs reanimator can be gg)
Elspeth > Helm.

Icochron is gold in some mutch ups I recognize, I play it because of not having other cards, but from now on with abrupt decay on the field, those decks you won before will be the ones that will crush if you have an isochron active and they have a.decay.
I tested it but I don't find it as needed at least in my build. Sure it wins you games, games I would have won having or not isocron. but I don't plan to seal the oponnent with chant, I prefer use humulity, moat, Cstory circle and so on. Aura of silcen also help a lot.

yespuhyren

09-28-2012, 01:38 AM

I just wanted to point out for those who didn't see, but WotC gave us a bomb.

Rest in Peace 1W
Enchantment
When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.

If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.

This card is Tormods crypt and Leyline of the Void all wrapped into one two mana card

It keeps mongoose a 1/1, makes goyfs 0/1s, and stops any deck reliant on their graveyard. Even without using it to solve the lack of win conditions it's worth maindecking.

But the combo is so so sweet

For those who care, just like Leyline, Rest in Peace is a 2 card instant mill their library to exile Combo with Helm of Obedience. It wins like painters grindstone, but the parts aren't stopped by the humilities in your deck or emrakul and creature removal in your opponents deck like painter/grindstone is. This is much harder to kill.

Now, the combo kill

Helm of Obedience 4
Artifact
X, Tap: Target opponent puts cards from the top of his or her library into his or her graveyard until a creature card or X cards are put into that graveyard this way, whichever comes first. If a creature card is put into that graveyard this way, sacrifice Helm of Obedience and put that card onto the battlefield under your control. X can't be 0.

The idea behind it being since no cards ever hit the yard it exiles infinitely. I'm going to be testing 3 rest and 2 helm (maybe 3 for fun) for now

(nameless one)

09-28-2012, 05:40 AM

LOL you're a page behind with the news.

yespuhyren

09-28-2012, 08:25 AM

(nameless one)

09-28-2012, 10:12 AM

That's what I get for missing page 6 haha

After checking page 6, a piece of advice is also try scorched ruins if you test lotus vale. It is a land with the se enters play ability, but taps for 4 colorless. Id be curious to see how 4 colorless is versus 3 white. The additional mana could be better considering the number of artifacts you run, but I don't know how reliant you are on white mana

Lotus Vale vs. Scorched Ruins is tricky:

While Ruins provides an extra mana, Vale makes sure you can make white (even other colors for splashes). Having both as a 3-4 of dilutes the basic lands the deck has. It also makes it vulnerable to mulligans as these lands will suck at the early stage of the game. Maybe a 2-2 split. Even then, I would only run 3 altogether, whether one or the other or split 2-1. Although this might be justified if you run Mox Diamond (though increasing the land count to 22+)

Running such lands will require maindecking 3-4 Pithing Needle because Wasteland exists. Although the rationale behind Needles is that they can shut down so much the deck hates to see (AEther Vial, Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Sensei's Divining Top (Counterbalance) among other things). Hell, I don't know if it's viable but you can name Fetchlands with it to shutdown future Fetchlands.

When I get time, I will try Lotus Vale (+3 Pithing Needles) just to get a feel.

As for other cards:

Balancing Act vs Cataclysm - I can't believe these cards haven't been tested. I've tried Balancing Act but I feel that I'm playing it wrong. I've explain the ideal scenario at my report. It feels like its gonna be good in the deck but all depends on which list.

I can see Cataclysm shining in more spell-based versions. Resolving it leaving a land, Land Tax, a Scroll Rack and possibly a hatebear (such as Thalia).

Extraplanar Lens - this card is actually great. It helps to keep your lands in check and it accelerates, although I wouldn't run this with Scorched Ruins/Lotus Vale.

Tangle Wire - is awesome in permanent based Parfait list. You tap down your Pithing Needles, Extraplanar Lens, Sensei's Divining Top, Cursed Totem. Though it's unfortunate that you can't tap down your enchantments.

dahcmai

10-01-2012, 10:53 PM

Well, since what I have been playing around with is similar to the ones in this thread though I play a ton more U, I figured I'd post it up here.

This deck is a beating. Part Miracles, part Parfait, part Helm combo, and part UW control. I've been having a ball with this proxied up since the spoiling of Rest in Peace. That was just too easy getting to have tutors for a much easier to cast Helm combo in a color I'm way more comfortable in. I always hated how the old Helm combo relied on you getting Leyline in your opening hand or you had to wait for 5th turn at best and cast 2 four mana cards. Now you get the same package with it being much easier to put together. Having tutors to go get a Rack or Tax is just gravy.

This was originally my Stoneforge deck and I just moved the Stoneforges to the board since it is nice having access to Batterskulls against the decks that have a weakness to it. Of course, since mine was still a Tax deck, you get the amazing plays of Dazing things to activate Tax and going nuts on people with Brainstorms, Jace, and Scroll Racks.

This one was pretty strong with the Stoneforges, but now it's just sickening. Being able to threaten a turn 3 Jace or just flat out kill is scary. Detention Sphere is a really nice addition also. I like having Maelstrom Pulse O-ring.

Since I don't plan on going to any large tournaments for a while, enjoy. It's worth playing with. I had a ball at our local legacy tournaments. It's already proved it's worth to me. Try it out and enjoy the long game if you get into it. It's sooo fun having that much draw. Just remember you can't technically deck with a Scroll Rack. It comes up a lot.

The only thing I'm not sure of is the amount of Helms. It's really nice to have them early, but it sure sucks drawing multiples. There's a ton of draw so 2 is probably the right number. 3 RIP's is definitely correct. You won't want to ever pull one or add another. I might cut down on some Tundras since I always tend to play the basics first anyway unless I get the Daze/Tax opener. That's the only reason they are staying. Path over Swords is just too funny.

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Path to Exile
3 Terminus
4 Force of Will
4 Mox Diamond
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
4 Plains
4 Tundra

Side
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
2 Detention Sphere
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Batterskull
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Back to Basics
1 Runed Halo - (this is a debatable slot. It's only here to cover any stupid stuff I might not have thought of until I get a more solid SB)

bowvamp

10-02-2012, 01:23 AM

Why no Energy Field?

dahcmai

10-02-2012, 08:41 AM

It would probably be fairly pointless. The deck goes on the offense quite fast. In addition to that, you are playing with 3 Terminus, 4 Paths, and 3 Jaces. Not much need to hide behind the shield really. I guess it would be a far board card, but I don't think there's much need past 1.

TaxMan

10-03-2012, 04:17 PM

Hi, I was yesterday in local tournament and I finished 2nd. I won against combo elves and ANT, and lost against RUG delver.

Match 1 Elves 2-0 (quite easy games, humility + terminus/wrath of god, than elspeth)

Match 2 RUG 0-2 Both games were quite long.
Game1. He 3 times FOWed my broken spells and killed me by Mongoose (only creature I haven't found answer).
Game2. Similar as 1st game, killed by Goyf & Mongoose. Again all broken spell were FOWed.

Match 3 ANT 2-1
Game 1 I started first with Chant in hand, but he discarted it next turn.
Game 2 Massive sideboard. I started, first turn tutor for Canonist. Than Scepter + Helix.
Game 3. Leyline & E.Tutor in opening hand...

As I said in my last report, deck is beating almost all non-blue aggro & storm/belcher decks. But still very very big issue with Blue-based deck. I really need help, maybe to change my sideboard or some cards in maindeck.

My thoughts after last tournament:
- Buried Ruin seems to be quite good in 2nd & 3rd game.
- Goblin Trenches seems to be quite expensive and not very strong in offensive. And too slow to start Tax/Rack engine quick.
- Every Lightning Helix save 1 turn
- Sideboard Blood Moon seems to be good against RUG/BUG and maybe UW too. More testing needed
- I had in sideboard 2x Pyroblast + 1x Blood Moon against blue, but no grave hate (really missed against RUG)

Top issue/questions: BLUE :cry:
- O.Chant's seems to be not enough to protect my key cards against counterspells. I think I need more protection.

- I'm not sure how to win against BUG, RUG, UW Miracles. I don't have fast kill condition and longer we play more board control they have...

- What are the best sideboards cards against blue-based decks and what to side Out?

- Issue with Ring/Needle is that they don't destroy key cards! They just lock them until they will get Disenchant-ed/Explostion-ed/...

- Elspeth & Isochron+Helix cannot kill opponent fast. I think I need some more win-conditions

- Has somebody tested in past Entreat the Angels?? I saw I think only one decklist with it and that was Blue-based parfait as I remember. I played a while Luminarch but without any hard/soft lock it was not very well. Maybe in Sideboard ...

- I don't wanna go with Pyroblat/REB maindeck as those cards are dead against other deck-types. Anyway, why Pyroblast/REB are prefered than Silence? Is 1-2x Silence in Sideboard not good against blue?

- what about Mishra's Factory?

- what about Exalted Angels?

- would be 4x Banishing Stroke enough?

- do we still need Zuran Orb or Goblin Trenches to help Land Tax to reduce lands?? I'm going to test it without these cards...

After some testing yesterday, I finished for now the decklist as I don't know what to add/remove more. I will play few tournaments with this build and see how it works...
Legacy Parfait v8.1
LANDS: 25 (19 + 4 + 2)
9x Plains
1x Mountain - for Land Tax
4x City of Traitors (http://magiccards.info/query?q=City+of+Traitors&v=card&s=cname)
1x Plateau (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Plateau&v=card&s=cname) - for Tithe
2x Arid Mesa (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Arid+Mesa&v=card&s=cname) - find red mana source and shuffle effect really help Rack/Top
1x Buried Ruin (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Buried+Ruin&v=card&s=cname) - seems to be very good in game 2&3, more testing needed. Originaly was Kor Haven (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Kor+Haven&v=card&s=cname), let's see after testing what will stay...
1x Ancient Den (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Ancient+Den&v=card&s=cname) - from time to time I really need one more mana so I use E.tutor for that. I used to play Chrome Mox, but without Charbelcher this seems better.
4x Mox Diamond (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Mox+Diamond&v=card&s=cname)
2x Tithe (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/123.html) - can find Plateau and is active when Land Tax is in-active. And Rack/Sensei shuffle effect.
KILL CONDITIONS: 6
1x Entreat the Angels (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Entreat+the+Angels&v=card&s=cname) - primary against control decks, not yet tested. Not very good under Humility, but let's see which matchups will improve...
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Elspeth%2C+Knight-Errant&v=card&s=cname)
3x Lightning Helix (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Lightning+Helix&v=card&s=cname) - give me some turns, seems good under scepter against control decks
OTHER:
3x Land Tax (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Land+Tax&v=card&s=cname)
3x Scroll Rack (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Scroll+Rack&v=card&s=cname)
1x Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Sensei%27s+Divining+Top&v=card&s=cname)
4x Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Enlightened+Tutor&v=card&s=cname)
1x Humility (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Humility&v=card&s=cname)
1x Moat (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/197.html)
2x Isochron Scepter (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Isochron+Scepter&v=card&s=cname)
4x Orim's Chant (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Orim%27s+Chant&v=card&s=cname)
4x Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Swords+to+Plowshares&v=card&s=cname)
2x Terminus (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Terminus&v=card&s=cname)
1x Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Wrath+of+God&v=card&s=cname)
1x Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Oblivion+Ring&v=card&s=cname)
1x Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pithing+Needle&v=card&s=cname)
2x Noxious Revival (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Noxious+Revival&v=card&s=cname) - very good with miracles...

SIDEBOARD:
4x Leyline of Sanctity (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Leyline+of+Sanctity&v=card&s=cname) (burn/discard/combo)
1x Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pithing+Needle&v=card&s=cname) (combo/control/sometimes aggro - especially manlands)
1x Abolish (http://magiccards.info/ddf/en/29.html) (control/combo)
1x Humility (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Humility&v=card&s=cname) (aggro/some control)
1x Ethersworn Canonist (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Ethersworn+Canonist&v=card&s=cname) - 2nd changed for 1x Silence (combo, some aggro, some control)
1x Powder Keg (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Powder+Keg&v=card&s=cname) (combo, aggro, some control)
1x Moat (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/197.html) (combo, aggro, some control)
1x Blood Moon (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Blood+Moon&v=card&s=cname) - needs more testing (UW, BUG, RUG and other 3color decks)
2x Silence (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/30.html) (control/combo) (maybe I will cut one for 1x Helm of Obedience (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Helm+of+Obedience&v=card&s=cname)) - originally was 2x Pyroblast (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pyroblast&v=card&s=cname)
1x Aura of Silence (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Aura+of+Silence&v=card&s=cname) (affinity, control) - I tried Seal of Cleansing (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Seal+of+Cleansing&v=card&s=cname), but Aura is better against Affinity and slow down all Explosions, Pernicous, ... but one mana more expensive...
1x Rest in Peace (http://magiccards.info/rtr/en/18.html) (RUG, Dredge and other grave/flashback decks. With Helm another kill condition. Originaly it was Relic of Progenitus (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Relic+of+Progenitus&v=card&s=cname))

Now I have against Blue-based decks 2x Silence, 1x Blood Moon, 1x Ethersworn Canonist, 1x Rest in Peace + 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Abolish, 1x Aura of Silence, 1x Powder Keg. I definitely need more testing against blue-based decks!

I tried to side in against UW miracles 2x Canonist and it was quite ok... (shut down Snapcaster, Brainstorm response and support my 2nd artifact spell in one turn)

Another anti-Blue side tips:
Oblivion Ring, another Powder Keg, another Seal of Cleansing / Aura of Silence, another Pithing Needle, Runed Halo, Story Circle, Defense Grid, Suppression Field, Nevermore, Luminarch Ascesion, ...

Thanks for your help and tips.

(nameless one)

10-03-2012, 05:38 PM

How does your main list look?

Also, since I am not running Goblin Charbelcher as a win condition (I'm using Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience), I can be more liberated with my lands.

First, I started using Lotus Vale and Ghost Quarter to lower my land count without sacrificing the mana they produce. On top of that I switched my maindecked Crystal Vein with City of Traitor.

At first I was happy with Extraplanar Lens but when the cat was out of the bag, Extraplanar Lens also becomes a target. Everything from Abrupt Decay to Green Sun's Zenith (Qasali Pridemage) became a hazard to Lens. It doesn't help that it took over my turn three play (as it doesn't do anything right away unlike my other tapout plays).

With that said, I started using Lotus Vale to decrease my land count without sacrificing my turn three play, while helping Land Tax trigger.

Yes Wasteland exists but you can preemptively Pithing Needle it.

What I am looking for right now is a "bomb" 2cc permanent. I'm thinking of Island Sanctuary among other things, Though the main is still on the works.

TaxMan

10-04-2012, 03:54 AM

I did update of my previous post with decklist and some comments.

what about Entreat the Angels, Mishra's Factory and my other questions - no one has tested those cards??

(nameless one)

10-04-2012, 10:13 AM

I did update of my previous post with decklist and some comments.

what about Entreat the Angels, Mishra's Factory and my other questions - no one has tested those cards??

Entreat the Angels - I like it and I don't like it. Its great in the late game and can give you a win out of nowhere. But like what you said, it doesn't play well with Humility and it can easily be answered, especially against the control mirror (opposing Terminus do exist). Why current choice for "oops I win" card would be Helm of Obedience + Rest in Peace. Rest in Peace not only hoses graveyard strategies but shrinks a lot of the format's premier beaters.

The only good thing I see with Entreat is that it takes less space.

Mishra's Factory - The thing I do not like about it is its a land. You want to run minimal land count to keep Land Tax active. Though this is all theory.

door

10-04-2012, 11:28 AM

I started playing mono-w version since land tax was unbanned and all the time Entreat the Angels has been performing as the best wincon for me. Elspeth and the Cursed Scroll on the second place. But I havn't tested Helm yet.

TaxMan

10-04-2012, 12:00 PM

- So how I'm thinking now with Helm of Obedience+Rest in Peace combo win-kill:
I have expectations related Helm+RIP, BUT I'm a bit sceptic how good it can be in our mono-white decklists. Yes, We can protect combo by casting with O.Chant/Silence or maybe Pyroblasts, but we are limited with board protection. I think that best implemantation of this combo is in UW control, they can simply better protect by casting and on board.
Based on what I wrote above, I don't like/want to have only one kill condition in the deck. Well, this combo is not as fragile as Servant/Grindstone was, but it can be still stoped by lots of things. I see it every 2nd & 3rd game, how aggressive they attack my scepters. It takes 4-5 slots, for that I can have 2-3 different win conditions. Several years ago in Vintage I was not worried to play as kill only 3x Goblin Charbelcher as I had 5-8 art/ench hate in main + 3 argivian finds. Now we have reduced our non-creatures board control only to 1-2 needle & 1-2oblivion ring, I think that's not enough for protection... after sideboard we have more, but they have more hate...

Related to my decklist, I agree, that RIP is very good by itself, that's why I'm going to run it in sideboard, but I don't want to put in into main, as in my meta I see dredge/reanimator very rarely. There are RUG decks, but only because of them it doesn't make sence to put them main.

- Related to Entreat the Angels:
That's the same situation as with Terminus. We use only 3-4 Scroll Racks to put them back on top of library, but blue had 3-4 top, 4brainstorms, 3 jace + eventualy ponder to keep it there. I really hate Terminus in opening hand, that's why I still run 1 wrath of god main. Simply sometimes I have problems to cast Terminus for miracle cost. Only difference is that Angels are not needed in early game, so normaly I should have Scroll Rack in play. Other things with Angels is that I don't need to go on 7-8lands in play, normaly I stop on 4-6 and than put City (depends on early City/Opponent/board situation)

TaxMan

10-06-2012, 09:40 AM

@ (nameless one): in your last build you have 18 artifacts. Some time ago, I have tested Mox Opal (http://magiccards.info/query?q=mox+opal&v=card&s=cname), was not that bad, but my build runs less artifacts. Have you/someone tested that card?
Today I tested Lotus Vale too, is quite good, but I'm affraid of Wastelands. I can use Needle, but than I can miss her for something more important in late game.

General question:
I did today some testing for tomorrow's bigger local event and I found out that Entreat would not help me much in my critical matchups (BUG,RUG,UW). Too mana intensive with saving mana for counterspells/chant and bad synergy with Humility & City of Traitors.
So I have one free slot. I want to add more permanent-hate cards, so I'm thinking about one of: Aura of Silence / 2nd Oblivion Ring / 2nd Pithing Needle.
O.Ring seems to be better in first game, Aura / Needle after sideboard. But as I said before, I don't like Ring for non-destructive ability.
Aura is better against Serenity, Pernicous, E.Explosive, ManLands, Affinity and MUD. For the rest of ench/art is slightly better too, as it destroy those permanents + delay their casting times.
O.Ring is pros is flexibility as it covers creatures & planeswalkers. Cons - only hide effect, which after reset really hurts (Vindicate, Abrupt Decay, Disenchant, Krosan Grip, Maelstrom Pulse, ...).

I have removed all my Auras as meta was strong aggro/storm, but now controls are back (at least in my meta) What do you think? Maindeck Aura vs O.Ring

EDIT: As I put one Aura of Silence from sideboard to main, I put 1x Luminarch Ascesion into the sideboard instead.
@ K-Run: I see you have one in sideboard. Have you chance to test it? Will it survive 4-5 turns to get active or it was never usefull?

(nameless one)

10-06-2012, 01:46 PM

On Mox Opal:
I actually haven't. It's funny because I have a playset of them I got for my MUD deck.

Being on the deck, 18 is an alright number. I should try it as a two of but my artifact count has actually gone down. I've removed Extraplanar Lens because of Lotus Vale and Tangle Wire since its less effective.

On Lotus Vale:
Yes, Wasteland sucks but I think as long as the deck revolves around the 2cc curve, it still can survive on one or two lands (in junction with Moxen).

@ Taxman's one slot:
I would use Pithing Needle. Jace, the Mindsculptor, AEther Vial, Sensei's Divining Top and Qasali Pridemage are some of the things I hate seeing on my opponent's board.

On thr other notr, if only Balancing Act was worded the same way as Balance/Restore Balance....

TaxMan

10-07-2012, 03:22 PM

Hi, I was today in Legacy event in Vienna. 2-2. 66% was U+something... It was horrible for me. My current decklist is really not prepared against blue-based decks.
Match 1 RUG 0-2
Match 2 bye
Match 3 UWb Miracles 0-2 killed by Jace. He counter or Vindicate all my key cards...
Match 4 ANT 2-0 (in game 2 I survive Tendrils for 20, thanks to Lightning Helix and later I killed him with another Helix when he Ad Nauseam to 3lifes in response via Scroll Rack).

So as said many times, deck is very good now against aggro and combo, but blue-based control is always loose.
Main issue is win condition. Even when get ''board control'' I have issue how to kill him...

I have to change my decklist radical. I think I will switch back to mono-white although lifegain was very good...
Than I think to remove Noxious Revival. I will add more Sensei, and I need another good win condition (maybe RIP+Helm, ...)
I'm thinking again abaout Mishra's Factory, Wasteland and maybe Crucible of Worlds

(nameless one)

10-30-2012, 11:28 PM

I piloted this to the 2nd Legacy Cockatrice Tournament at the MTGSalvation. I came 2nd overall (losing to Finn piloting D&T in the finals). The format was single elimination.

First and foremost, the list:

10 Snow-Covered Plains
4 City of Traitors
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Lotus Vale

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Pithing Needle
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack
2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
4 Land Tax

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Terminus

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Trinisphere
3x Aura of Silence
2x Ghostly Prison
2x Karmic Justice

Currently I am too lazy to justify all my card choices but if you guys ask questions about them, I will answer them.

Round 1 (Kevinliu w/ BUG)

This was actually more of a bye as he can't set up a proper game with me. He ended up just dropping the whole tournament.

2-0

Round 2 (rxavage w/ OmniTell)

Game 1: He goes for an early Show and Tell. All I remember is I drop Humility and then a turn later, I go for Elspeth and win from there. At this point, I am not sure what kind of Show and Tell variant he has. I didn't have Tax/Rack draw engine on this match.

Sideboard: -4 Swords to Plowshares, +4 Trinisphere

Game 2: I go turn one Land Tax, turn 2 Scroll Rack. But he Force of Wills it and then Surgical Extractions it. It kinda saddened me since I was holding Rest in Peace. Rest in Peace shuts off Surgical Extraction. I then went on going for Rest in Peace, Trinisphere and Humility in consecutive turns. But from there, I kept drawing lands. He eventually got enough mana to get Karn Liberated going, with the help of his early Lotus Petal, and Ancient Tombs. He actually got Karn to +14 Loyalty (with a pending Emrakul, the Aeons Torn along with it). On the critical turn, I pulled off a miracle buy topdecking Pithing Needle (naming Karn of course). Luckily he didn't have any permission. On his following turn, he goes for Show and Tell for Omniscience. He then tries to go for the storm combo via (Burning Wish) but I pointed out Trinisphere makes everything cost at least :3: even with Omniscience out. He ended the turn knowing what the only card in his hand. On my turn, I draw a Tutor. On his turn, he B.Wishes for Time of Need and ended the turn. On his end of turn, I Tutored for Helm and proceeded to win next turn.

2-0

Round 3 (TANE w/ Death and Taxes)

Game 1: I StPed an early Stoneforge Mystic (which grabbed Batterskull). He tried to lock me with Rishadan Port but his threat was anemic. An early Humility slowed him enough for me to set up RIP/Helm Combo. I didn't get a Tax/Rack engine on the field.

Sideboard: +2 Karmic Justice/-2 Oblivion Ring

Game 2: He did nothing for his first turn while I go for Mox, Land Tax, Plains, Needle on SFMystic on mine. He drops Rishadan Port and does nothing. He taps my Plains with it but I drop a second Needle naming the Port. He still went for SFMystic (grabbing Sword of Fire and Ice) and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and starts beating me with them. I go for an accelerated Humility to slow his attack down. I eventually get the Tax/Rack engine going to help set up a couple of miracle topdecks and eventually with the RIP/Helm Combo.

2-0

Round 4 (Swanofblood w/ Death and Taxes)

Game 1: The game began with me playing around Thalia and Karakas tricks. I was getting the short end of the stick when I got the Tax/Rack engine going. Tax/Rack set up a couple of miracle topdecks. That slowed him enough for me to get Humility going. Elspeth sooned followed to clean up.

Sideboard: +2 Karmic Justice/-2 Oblivion Ring

Game 2: He got quick beats with Thalia (I have StPed a couple of them in the early turns) and friends while sit there trying to develop my mana base. I got land screwed on this game while I had 4+cc bombs in my hand (Elspeth, Humility, Terminus, Helm). The only thing I can cast at this point was Karmic Justice and it didn't help my cause. I lost this game.

Sideboard: -2 Karmic Justice/+2 Oblivion Ring

Game 3: I don't remember much from this game (I should have finished my notes). All I remembered was he had Judge's Familiar, Ethersworn Canonist (no idea why he sided it in) and Thalia. I resolve a Humilty on the fourth turn (with the help of a first turn Mox). He attacks with everything and doesn't do much. On the next turn, I go for RIP, then Helm (with the help of City of Traitors) then activate the combo for the win. He was not expecting that. My power soon died after because of Hurricane Sandy.

Round 5 (Finn w/ Death and Taxes)

Game 1: He thinks I am running Storm because of my comment on the Tournament Thread at MTGS. He goes for a turn one Judge's Familiar. I go for a turn one Land Tax. He goes for a turn two Thalia. My hand didn't have lands or removal and I fear I won't get Land Tax active. I go tutor for SDTop. His team was helped with Serra Avenger while keeping a low land count. My Land Tax didn't get active and I didn't see/draw any of the following: Swords to Plowshares/Humility/O-Ring/Terminus. I did not draw any lands and probably won't be able to play Humility anyways.

Sideboard: +2 Karmic Justice/+2 Ghostly Prison/-1 Land Tax/-1 Scroll Rack/-1 ETutor/-1 RIP

Game 2: I kinda kick myself over on the nuts by keeping a hand that had Tutor/Plains/Ghost Quarter/ Land Tax and other 3+cc bombs. I go Plains go. He goes for a turn one Vial while I respond with Tutor (for Pithing Needle). On my turn 2, I go for Needle (naming Vial) and Land Tax. On his turn, he goes Karakas then Thalia. I tried going Ghost Quarter on my Plains to get Land Tax active but he points out that it doesn't work like that since Land Tax has that 'IF' intervening clause. He pulled off tricks off of his sleeve by legendary-killing his own Karakas leaving him with one land. At this point, I lost track and scooped since I needed to do something. He then showed his Rishadan Ports.

After the game, I had short conversation with him and he advised a couple of things.

Overall, I was glad the deck did okay. I was a little disappointed that that misunderstanding with the ruling cost me not only the match but also winning the whole thing.

Props:
Parfait working out for me
Playing against Finn and learning a couple of tricks from him
Zirath for organizing the whole thing
Trinisphere for trumping all other cost alternating effects

Slops:
Rules misunderstanding
Karmic Justice for getting sided in for nothing. Although I will still keep it in the side for now.
Hurricane Sandy

Please feel free to ask any questions.

baghdadbob

10-31-2012, 10:00 AM

Very interesting take on the deck and congratulations on the win! How did lotus vale treat you?

(nameless one)

10-31-2012, 12:26 PM

Very interesting take on the deck and congratulations on the win! How did lotus vale treat you?

It can't really give a conclusive answer on it. I've only got to use it twice against the D/T twice (Round 3 game 2 and the last round).

On game 3, it did kept Land Tax active without me missing a land drop. Against Finn, he actually knows how to play around it (Killed his own lands to match my Vale-d up manabase) while he had the board presence. For the most part, they were just Mox fodder on te early game.

I might cut the number to three. Before Lotus Vale, I had Extraolabar Lens to keep my land count low while not hampering my mana count development but having it always makes my turn three a Time Walk against my opponent.

I am contemplating on changing the manabase to -1 Vale/-4 Quarters/+4 Crystal Veins/+1 Plains. I might even replace all the Lotus Vales with Serra's Sanctum (and just legendary-kill them if I need a lower land count) or Horizon Canopy.

If I do change the manabase with 8 Sol Lands, I might consider running Damping Engine

Finn

10-31-2012, 03:57 PM

I thought of something. A single Flagstones of Trokair might be good with Ghost Quarter of you keep them. In case you a short on white mana sources.

Zirath

10-31-2012, 04:15 PM

The deck is very well thought out. That being said, in light testing, I find that it takes a while to establish your board. You need both your CA engine and lock pieces. I honestly wonder if it should be playing the second color just to give you better options. In white alone, it just seems like you can't do enough quickly enough.

(nameless one)

10-31-2012, 05:35 PM

I thought of something. A single Flagstones of Trokair might be good with Ghost Quarter of you keep them. In case you a short on white mana sources.

It sounds fancy. It's also a pseudo shuffle effect or even legendary-kill two of them and not search for Plains to get Land Tax active but overall, it sounds too much.

Ghost Quarter was awesome at playing the pseudo Wasteland role of taking out utility lands or lands that produce multiple mana. I thought the "target your own Plains" during upkeep while Land Tax trigger is on the stack was another role it can play. Unfortunately it didn't do what I wanted it to do.

I'll keep the disposable Sol-lands in the manabase for now and see how it progresses.

The deck is very well thought out. That being said, in light testing, I find that it takes a while to establish your board. You need both your CA engine and lock pieces. I honestly wonder if it should be playing the second color just to give you better options. In white alone, it just seems like you can't do enough quickly enough.

Actually, you either want to go lock first or draw engine first. But for the most part, you want to go for the lock first. One of the traps I find with the deck is that trying to set up Tax/Rack early instead of trying to stop your opponent.

Tax/Rack is there to keep your hand replenished late game, and quickly finding your win-con.

Land Tax just has that bonus that helps you when you are behind in lands and Scroll Rack's bonus is to "fix" your hand.

I've considered splashes, mostly Red. Color fixing wasn't impossible from Mox and Lotus Vale. I have considered Seismic Assault, Lightning Helix, Winds of Change and Burning Wish. I just didn't have enough time to test.

I am still testing and we'll see how the deck develops.

Zirath

10-31-2012, 06:44 PM

I've considered splashes, mostly Red. Color fixing wasn't impossible from Mox and Lotus Vale. I have considered Seismic Assault, Lightning Helix, Winds of Change and Burning Wish. I just didn't have enough time to test.

I need a reason to use my Plateaus.

door

11-01-2012, 02:24 AM

If I do change the manabase with 8 Sol Lands, I might consider running Damping Engine

I think Zuran Orb is just better.

(nameless one)

11-01-2012, 06:33 AM

I think Zuran Orb is just better.

But the purpose of Damping Engine isn't to reduce my land count but as a Balance effect. If I am behind, it can slow down the opponent. If I've already set up my lock pieces, it can help trigger my Land Tax.

Zuran Orb only fulfills the second part. Zuran Orb's life gain is awesome against aggro but having to sacrifice your lands if you don't need to does hurt your board development.

While we're talking about "Balance" effects, I wanted to bring up Smokestack. Arguably its better than Damping Engine but having your lands disposable makes Stacks symmetrical.

Arguably, I can go the "artifact" route, having Ancient Dens, Tangle Wires and Powder Kegs to fuel up Mox Opal. Of course in doing so, you have to commit more than half of the deck which is another development.

Why Powder Keg over Ratchet Bomb? Kegs don't destroy Land Tax.

Finn

11-01-2012, 09:33 AM

(nameless one)

11-01-2012, 10:14 AM

Devastating Dreams is the best reason for red IMO. It is much more effective than any other legal measure for empowering Land Tax. Especially when combined with something like Tangle Wire, it forces the opponent to overcommit on both lands and creatures before you wipe them all out for massive card advantage. It is close to being Balance.

I was actually running Vengeful Dreams before Terminus got spoiled. I like Devastating Dreams although the random clause on the discard does make it a liability.

I'll try the red splash again, although it does need a whole new manabase. In going the DDreams way, Lotus Vale and the rest of the disposable Sol-Lands might not work.

On the other note, Archaeological Dig seems like it might work. Although it is still disposable. Maybe Undiscovered Paradise?

Also, if only Soldevi Excavations affected Plains and produced white mana. It would be awesome not only for Land Tax, but also for SDTop/Scroll Rack.

Finn

11-01-2012, 12:16 PM

Undiscovered paradise is a great idea. The reason you don't see me trying to make red/white work
is because the mana was never right with land tax. But I don't think I ever tried that card.

Hanni

11-03-2012, 06:04 AM

Extraplanar Lens. Double-edged sword if the opponent has Snow-Covered Plains, but whatever.

(nameless one)

11-03-2012, 01:48 PM

Extraplanar Lens. Double-edged sword if the opponent has Snow-Covered Plains, but whatever.

I was running 3 of then before the updated list but I find casting them on turn three means that you're not doing anything on that turn. If you cast them later in the game, they lose their value since 1) it will not guarantee it will help Land Tax trigger/ b) if you're bypassing Land Tax, you're better off just playing lands/ c) it limits you to just basic lands and not utility lands.

joretapo

11-14-2012, 06:12 AM

i'm actually working on a uw version of tax/rack with trasure hunt, it is a bit early to say anything more about it (need to see if i go control or mana acceleration route) but i think it has potential.

jhhdk

11-14-2012, 07:55 AM

WRT splashing (sounds dirty), most likely cute-things and win-more possibly both, never the less here are a few ideas (which may have already been discussed):
Green:
Life from the loam
Crop rotation
Worm harvest this may be prohibitively expensive.
Manabond (enables win with Emeria, the sky ruin or Valakut, the molten pinnacle)

Black:
Raven's crime

joretapo

11-14-2012, 08:00 AM

Yep i am also considering green for loam

Crucible too for loam / mox diamond
But i do not see the gain yet i m focused on uw right now i ll test the rest later

(nameless one)

12-07-2012, 12:26 PM

I am in the process of updating the primer. Any suggestions are welcome.

clavio

01-14-2013, 09:41 AM

I am in the process of updating the primer. Any suggestions are welcome.

The suspense is killing me

Shax

01-18-2013, 07:54 PM

I am in the process of updating the primer. Any suggestions are welcome.

Ya I have a suggestion. Play the real TaxRack deck.

4 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Mox Diamond
14 Plains
4 Tithe
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
3 Rest in Peace
3 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Celestial Purge
4 Argivian Find
4 Abolish
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Absolute Law
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Warmth
SB: 2 Refraction Trap

Have fun.

Explanations:
You play Painter's Servant instead of any other jank because you can stay on a 1-3 curve. At 3 mana being your killing point. Maindeck CoP: Red because it nails Jund, Goblins, Burn strategies.. Red cards. ( Everything becomes Red under Painter FYI ). Celestial Purge because it stops.. Red cards and even Black cards!
The engine is self explanatory. You need x4 Tax, Rack, Tutor and Mox Diamond. Tithe is x4. Play it. Maindeck x3 Rest In Peace means we can beat Dredge Game 1, and allow us to win with Painter's Servant while they are playing Elfball with Emralku, or Emralku decks period. (Show and Tell? Sure we'll play Painter combo). Argivian Find means we can beat Control decks that FoW Tax or something. Abolish is x4.

SB?
O.Ring for Show and Tell/Decks that you feel comfortable bringing a 3CMC enchantment against
Path to Exile for Elf or Zoo decks.
Rest In Peace to stomp down Dredge and Deathrite Shaman and Snapcaster Mage some more
Absolute Law to make sure Painter's Servant can stay on the Battlefield.
Another CoP:Red because of Red decks.
A Warmth to tutor up against Burn decks
Refraction Trap for RUG Delver

Pros: You can win mostly any matchup with some practice and skill, some luck helps too.
Cons: You lose if you don't Painter's Servant combo them 2 games out of 3. (Not counting niche scenarios like for example: you beat them down with Painter's Servant, they kill themselves with Ad Nauseam, they die to Dark Confidant. )

clavio

01-18-2013, 10:21 PM

Pros: You can win mostly any matchup with some practice and skill

How do you beat storm combo? How do you protect painter's servant from getting killed?

Opaco

01-19-2013, 07:50 AM

Long time usually lurker, starting to post, English not as first lenguaje, you know the drill. I had been playing Mighty Quinn in the past as I only a few cards away from this deck I was wondering if it still could be viable in nowadays meta, full of BGx tempo/control/whatever with maindeck Decays and combo starting to come back, as discussion about this deck seems to be dried quite a bit.

Pros: You can win mostly any matchup with some practice and skill, some luck helps too.

And, pardon if it sounds rude, no opponent in front of you. Firstly, Imperial Painter has blasts and moons, UR Painter has sorted counters and M. Quinn chants into the combo but you have zero ways to protect one of the most fragile creatures as it dies to almost everything: StP, Bolt, Decay, Dismember, Deed, instant Terminus, any artifact hate, Countertop, any hard counter... and with no other relevant targets in your deck your oppenent will be stocking on those. In second games if somehow it gets extracted, even if RIP and Argivian helps againt, its probably gg as you have literally no other wincons apart from Grindsotne standalone mill. Which will be not enough because, secondly, you have no reliable removal or disruption: you will be assembling Tax-Rack engine into card advantage into maybe a painter win or maybe useless cards and redundant pieces while your opponent will be advancing their game plan: combo will outrun you, fast aggro and tempo will probably also outrun you, control and midrange will stock into disruption. This is because, thirdly, while some cards could steal games on their one like CoP:Red againts burn or RIP against dredge, half of your deck is dead most of the time: Argivian is a nombo with RIP, Abolish being without targets, Celestial Purge and CiP:Red being off color without an active Painter, RIP being just dead and Land Tax being played around.

Darkenslight

01-19-2013, 10:46 AM

(nameless one)

01-19-2013, 02:00 PM

Shax

01-19-2013, 04:16 PM

Sorry got the delay with the primer. I've been busy with holidays so playtesting has been limited.

As for the Painter/Stone kill, I find that whenever people see Painter's Servant, it gets killed. It's the only creature you're running and unless your opponent is stupid or out of answers, it will not survive. Also, Emrakul exists.

Why not run Helm of Obedience? You're already running Rest in Piece. Against aggro; Humility, StP, Terminus.

Yes, Humility and Helm costs four. This is why I am running City of Traitors (since Mox option is limited in Legacy).

Against storm, I would usually side in Trinisphere and to some extent Aura of Silence. Aura of Silence slows their mana Mox and Trinisphere explains itself.

Also, Trinisphere is great against deck that can run with less than three mana.

So far, what I have on the primer is history and what to considered for the Vintage meta back in 2000 to Legacy now.

PS. A "combo" deck will not be an established list if it can't win on turn one/two or has a reliable back up plan.

Let's answer some of these shall we?

Why not run Helm? Painter's Servant combo plus Rest in Peace accomplishes the same goal but cheaper on a turn by turn basis. I can atleast have my combo out just like you can turn 1/2.
I'm trying to play Magic, if you want to play your City of Traitors go for it. I'd watch out for Wastelands and potential landscrew it gives you since it sac's itself. Also it's a non-basic, so things that thrive on non-basics (Price of Progress, Skyshroud Elite) actually work now. It also does not get searched with Land Tax.

How do I beat Storm Combo? Well in Legacy decks that win on Turn 2 aren't Storm Combo. (Because let's face it, why are you playing a Turn 2 Storm Combo deck on purpose when you can win with Lion's Eye Diamonds right now?) So this deck is thrown into a Turn 2 Category of decks. Storm Combo is a matchup I would try to dodge. Is that a acceptable answer? No? Then if Storm Combo was EVERYWHERE then making a SB would be easy. Curse of Exhaustion, Rule of Law.. Ethersworn Canonist, the Aura of Silence.. 3Sphere, Chalice, Leyline of Sanctity. There is more Storm Combo hate than there are actual played Storm Combo cards I would almost bet at this point in the game. A Storm Combo player looking at a MonoWhite player he crushed game 1 (or got unluckily blown out by a fast painter combo sticking) will usually think that he needs to bring in anti-anti storm cards. We just shuffle the 15 card sideboard in, act like we brought in Leyline of Sanctity and the whole anti-storm package because we play to win. He starts Duressing and Thoughtseizing and finds that he busted and there is nothing there to be taken. The Land Tax is already on the battlefield at this point or we have Enlightened Tutor in resp to discard effect with a Painter piece on the table. It's too late. Socially engineering opponents is a very low trick indeed but this is a deck to do just that with.

Why stress the Land Tax in the above Storm Combo question? Land Tax is the reason to play this deck. You need to stress it. Why do we run nothing but basics? To garuntee a 3 card advantage off of Tax almost every time. Sticking a Tax and Rack and then drawing 10 cards is acceptable to win games. Then you start casting multiple Painter's Servant pieces in a turn and because of 2 cards they dropped a game. (3 if we suspect Emralku effects). One strength to this style deck that wasn't previously viable before Tax getting unbanned is that we can drop a matchup that everyone doesn't play (Storm Combo, which is a easy matchup for a White deck to have a chance at winning) for utility against decks that are easy to play or see more numbers. Goblins, Burn, Dredge. Goblins would love to see that City of Traitors so they can Waste it, and go to town with a Lackey while you recover. MUD/Stax decks have more or less the same agenda when looking at other non-basics. If you are really scared of Storm Combo play Null Rod's and drop the Painter/Helm approach. Also against MUD or Mangara Flickerwisp.dek Ghost Quarters will get you a land as long as you have any left and also applys for Path to Exile. Let's face it, being able to stuff Goblins, Burn and Dredge is impressive enough in my book already. (Those 3 decks rotate in and out of the DTB's when combined alot. I would like to know the statistics on just how often they rotate out of the DTB status combined) Having game against Control decks (didn't counter Land Tax? You should lose) and Combo (Pondering and Brainstorming for 2 turns? You could be dead) is what Land Tax has going for it. The fact is that 'Troll Archtypes' ( Goblins, Burn and Dredge.. then you can add things like Berserk Stompy etc it goes downhill from there.) take more of a loss when they lose to a deck that can specifically metagame against them since the tiered decks (RUG Delver for Example) usually take epic losses to Dredge, Goblins and Burn in that respect. I know for a fact that RUG Delver doesn't want to get served those 3 decks round after round. In that sense if you feel like people are prepping easymode decks (aggros) for a unknown metagame then play TaxRack and win.

Imperial Painter's Moon's don't do anything to Basic lands. Abolish takes care of opposing Painter. If they so happen to be playing the legit Imperial Painter, then you know that they have Red cards so any Red card matchup is in your favor with all the anti-red we have naturally. To answer the question 'How do I protect Painter?' Play Absolute Law, then play Painter naming Red. You even out the battlefield advantages RUG Delver gets with RIP. RIP hits Nimble Mongoose so they can't aggro for 3/3, RIP smashes Tarmogoyf. It hits control decks that pack Snapcaster Mage. Hurts Storm Combo that wants Ill-Gotten Gains or Past in Flames. Let's us win through Emralku. Beats Dredge. The list goes on I'm sure. Stops Crucible of Worlds. All this card does to us is stop Argivian Find, which for 1 mana happens to get back the Rest In Peace to be stuck again on the battlefield. Cabal Therapy decks, Cabal Ritual decks also get hit by Rest in Peace.

After thinking on it more, Celestial Purges hit Deathrite Shaman naturally and Dark Confidant. Those 2 cards pretty much in any decent Legacy metagame are going to see play, so that gives TaxRack(Metagame deck that combos) a avenue to play. Sensei's Diving Top is a good card to consider for this deck but there is enough going on as is. I would like to see how you could take my shell (1-3 CMC) and turn it into the Helm shell (1-4 or whatever numbers here). I think for different Metagames they would both be appropriate. The beauty of TaxRack is that until they unban Mental Misstep, I have no reason to splash for another color unless something comes along on the same powerlevel as the MM. (Wizards unbanning Gush powerlevel card in Legacy) Mental Misstep along with Daze would be a strategy worth playing in TaxRack and would also solve your little Storm Combo problem maindeck.

(nameless one)

01-19-2013, 06:40 PM

Show me how you can win turn 1/2 with Painter/Stone and you might convince me with that combo. Consider removal and permission.

In Imperial Painter and U/R versions, you can protect it with permission (whether it be Force of Will or Blast effects). Goblin Welder also plays an important role.

Back when I played it in Quinn, if I am not facing combo, I would always try to play it out until I have eight mana late game for the whole combo and a chant effect. That deck was built to grind so you play it out properly.

Against Storm, I agree. It's a bad matchup game one. Big whoop, a lot of tier 1.5-2 decks have terrible Storm matchups. But you know what, who's playing Storm these days? Koby? Bryant Cook? (no offense guys).

Worst case scenario, you dedicate your sideboard to it or do what Aggroloam players do; don't play the deck.

As for Basic lands vs. City of Traitors, I think it's wrong for the deck to limit it to basic lands. You have a card that helps you when you get land screwed (Land Tax). City of Traitors accelerate you to board dominating spells without drastically increasing your land count on the board. Trust me on this. City of Traitors (and Crystal Vein) has helped "ramp" the deck in a format with minimal Mox option.

What made Parfait great in Vintage early 2000 era was decks also needed lands in junction to Moxen to win. Now even decks in Legacy can win with only one or two lands on the field. This is what sets Land Tax back. This is why it was banned in other formats outside of Vintage almost a decade ago and unplayable now.

Also on Wasteland, I would be more than happy for my opponent to Wasteland my City of Traitor. Once I've got my two mana off of it, I am happy even if it's once. I think you misunderstood the City of Traitors suggestion. I am not implying to flood the deck with stack effects, but have a couple in junction to your cheap removal/disruption.

Edit to Shax's edit:

My list does run SDT and a two of off Helm. Also, people seem to forget Pithing Needle exist.

Opaco

01-20-2013, 10:17 AM

Let's answer some of these shall we?

Why not run Helm? Painter's Servant combo plus Rest in Peace accomplishes the same goal but cheaper on a turn by turn basis. I can atleast have my combo out just like you can turn 1/2.

Because Helm doesn't die hard to creature removal, which every legacy deck packs but combo. And if you play against any competent combo player, be it storm, elfball, belcher, reanimator, omniscience, sneak or whatever WILL outrun you. A turn 1/2 painter win? really? The only way to achieve this is through a hand with at least two moxes, the required lands, the combo in hand, AND your opponent having no disruption. A turn three combo win is possible, but again you need to have a really good hand AND your opponent lacking disruption. Which is highly improbable, because any good combo player will only keep hands that are fast or have enough disruption to buy the time. Remember that the key here is that you only have RIP as disruption to buy time, which certanly stop dregde on its tracks, stops reanimator if resolved and could hurt other decks or not.

How do I beat Storm Combo? Well in Legacy decks that win on Turn 2 aren't Storm Combo. (Because let's face it, why are you playing a Turn 2 Storm Combo deck on purpose when you can win with Lion's Eye Diamonds right now?) So this deck is thrown into a Turn 2 Category of decks. Storm Combo is a matchup I would try to dodge. Is that a acceptable answer? No? Then if Storm Combo was EVERYWHERE then making a SB would be easy. Curse of Exhaustion, Rule of Law.. Ethersworn Canonist, the Aura of Silence.. 3Sphere, Chalice, Leyline of Sanctity. There is more Storm Combo hate than there are actual played Storm Combo cards I would almost bet at this point in the game. A Storm Combo player looking at a MonoWhite player he crushed game 1 (or got unluckily blown out by a fast painter combo sticking) will usually think that he needs to bring in anti-anti storm cards. We just shuffle the 15 card sideboard in, act like we brought in Leyline of Sanctity and the whole anti-storm package because we play to win. He starts Duressing and Thoughtseizing and finds that he busted and there is nothing there to be taken. The Land Tax is already on the battlefield at this point or we have Enlightened Tutor in resp to discard effect with a Painter piece on the table. It's too late. Socially engineering opponents is a very low trick indeed but this is a deck to do just that with.

This is not about socially engineering your opponents, but hoping they are blind or just bad: any competent storm player against a deck like this, which stronger hate is in form of permanents will not rely on discard, but board in bouncing and destroying, which are great in comboing through your hate and in stoping your combo. It's obvious that if you stuff yout 15 against that match-up, but that¡s true to almost every deck.

Why stress the Land Tax in the above Storm Combo question? Land Tax is the reason to play this deck. You need to stress it. Why do we run nothing but basics? To garuntee a 3 card advantage off of Tax almost every time. Sticking a Tax and Rack and then drawing 10 cards is acceptable to win games. Then you start casting multiple Painter's Servant pieces in a turn and because of 2 cards they dropped a game. (3 if we suspect Emralku effects). One strength to this style deck that wasn't previously viable before Tax getting unbanned is that we can drop a matchup that everyone doesn't play (Storm Combo, which is a easy matchup for a White deck to have a chance at winning) for utility against decks that are easy to play or see more numbers. Goblins, Burn, Dredge. Goblins would love to see that City of Traitors so they can Waste it, and go to town with a Lackey while you recover. MUD/Stax decks have more or less the same agenda when looking at other non-basics. If you are really scared of Storm Combo play Null Rod's and drop the Painter/Helm approach. Also against MUD or Mangara Flickerwisp.dek Ghost Quarters will get you a land as long as you have any left and also applys for Path to Exile. Let's face it, being able to stuff Goblins, Burn and Dredge is impressive enough in my book already. (Those 3 decks rotate in and out of the DTB's when combined alot. I would like to know the statistics on just how often they rotate out of the DTB status combined) Having game against Control decks (didn't counter Land Tax? You should lose) and Combo (Pondering and Brainstorming for 2 turns? You could be dead) is what Land Tax has going for it. The fact is that 'Troll Archtypes' ( Goblins, Burn and Dredge.. then you can add things like Berserk Stompy etc it goes downhill from there.) take more of a loss when they lose to a deck that can specifically metagame against them since the tiered decks (RUG Delver for Example) usually take epic losses to Dredge, Goblins and Burn in that respect. I know for a fact that RUG Delver doesn't want to get served those 3 decks round after round. In that sense if you feel like people are prepping easymode decks (aggros) for a unknown metagame then play TaxRack and win.

And here we go to the main point: parfait is about breaking land tax, which is an engine that nets card advantage along several turns, so you have to design your deck with that in mind, as you will probably be playing into turn 4+. And when you will be getting card advantage and situational hate almost every legacy deck in that time will just be winning the game if undisrupted. My point was not your game against combo, there are plenty of decks with an horrible combo match-up, the problem is your game against anything.

Of course if you stock your maindeck against red decks and graveyard, you have a great game against them, but in any diverse meta they are a minority. They aren't even in the DTB section now. Goblins goes in and out, meybe it will do a comeback due to the new batallion onedrop, dredge depends on people forgetting about it, but with the prevalence of Deathrite I doubt it will come back in some time and burn, while widely played, isn't a real DTB (sans that time that took a couple of SCG by surprise it usually doesn't put great results).

I disagree about control decks. Again, have you played against decent control players and decks?. In your deck a resolved Land Tax is irrelevant to the control player: the thing is that any control player have at least eight hard solutions (StP, FOW in UWx; Decay, FOW in BUG; and that is the bare minimum, add things like Counterspell, Dismember, Countertop, Terminus, Deed, discard... hell, even a GSZ into Pridemage counts as an inavoidable answer) to your just four painters. If you want to count Argivian as painters 5-8 there is no RIP, so snapcaster becomes swords 5-8. The rest of your cards are completly irrelevant. No removal in your side means that while you are exchanging painters with their removal a single Snapcaster could go the distance.

Imperial Painter's Moon's don't do anything to Basic lands. Abolish takes care of opposing Painter. If they so happen to be playing the legit Imperial Painter, then you know that they have Red cards so any Red card matchup is in your favor with all the anti-red we have naturally. To answer the question 'How do I protect Painter?' Play Absolute Law, then play Painter naming Red. You even out the battlefield advantages RUG Delver gets with RIP. RIP hits Nimble Mongoose so they can't aggro for 3/3, RIP smashes Tarmogoyf. It hits control decks that pack Snapcaster Mage. Hurts Storm Combo that wants Ill-Gotten Gains or Past in Flames. Let's us win through Emralku. Beats Dredge. The list goes on I'm sure. Stops Crucible of Worlds. All this card does to us is stop Argivian Find, which for 1 mana happens to get back the Rest In Peace to be stuck again on the battlefield. Cabal Therapy decks, Cabal Ritual decks also get hit by Rest in Peace.

You missed the point about Imperial Painter references, ot wasn't about your match-up against it, but as an example of how sucessful painter decks are those that have many forms of protecting their painter or disrupting the opponent, as Quinn did with Chant effects. Absolute law is really effective protecting a resolved painter, but again its completly dead without painter and does nothing against discard or counterspells.

Yep, RIP is great card, it hoses a great deal of cards and because of that many list play it maindeck even if it can be dead sometimes. The difference is the slot that is taking, in your deck is a spot by itself, so if it's dead it's just dead, but in Helm its a combo piece and its only dead in the sense a half from a two card combo is dead. And even if its more robust that painter, people are aware of how fragil the combo win is and Helm is just 2-3, having alternative wincons like Mesa or Elspeth. Painter and Quinn also had alternative wincons.

After thinking on it more, Celestial Purges hit Deathrite Shaman naturally and Dark Confidant. Those 2 cards pretty much in any decent Legacy metagame are going to see play, so that gives TaxRack(Metagame deck that combos) a avenue to play. Sensei's Diving Top is a good card to consider for this deck but there is enough going on as is. I would like to see how you could take my shell (1-3 CMC) and turn it into the Helm shell (1-4 or whatever numbers here). I think for different Metagames they would both be appropriate. The beauty of TaxRack is that until they unban Mental Misstep, I have no reason to splash for another color unless something comes along on the same powerlevel as the MM. (Wizards unbanning Gush powerlevel card in Legacy) Mental Misstep along with Daze would be a strategy worth playing in TaxRack and would also solve your little Storm Combo problem maindeck.

The key to make a sucessful Tax decks is to balance how to capitalize the Tax engine when its online and what to do if it isn't. With the engine going you will be digging into lots of situational cards, which have the added problem that they are dead in multiples, with the only real bussines as the painter combo. And if Tax-Rack isn't online, which will happen more times that you think, you will have no other plan that topdecking the combo through a great deal of chaff before losing. And god bless us if the rampant BGx decks have something in second games along the lines of Thougseize a combo piece into Surgical.

Nevertheless, is your meta is full of red/graveyard based decks, I will like to hear how it fares in tournament play and will love to see reports.

EDIT:

All this card does to us is stop Argivian Find, which for 1 mana happens to get back the Rest In Peace to be stuck again on the battlefield.

Only if RIP was discarded or countered, if it was already in play it exiles itself when destroyed.

(nameless one)

01-23-2013, 09:11 AM

Partial primer posted.

Also, I am contemplating on Maindecking Suppression Field. I know it's a non-bo to Scroll Rack, Helm of Obedience and Elspeth but the main target of that card is to disrupt Fetchlands. Definitely needs testing. I probably won't mind if Scroll Rack costs 3 to activate if my opponent's get mana screwed because his Fetchlands can't do much or his Deathrite Shaman can't tap for mana (DRS's land ability isn't a mana ability).

If you can hit Fetchlands with Pithing Needle, it's awesome but it's harder like that.

I wish Blind Obedience also affected lands.

Shax

01-26-2013, 04:22 PM

Opaco

01-27-2013, 06:33 AM

GRiiMES: we can end it now
Shax: Ok
So I beat my worst matchup
GRiiMES reveals his library.
Shax: basically on some fluke wins
GRiiMES: it happens
Shax: 2-1 ScrollTax!
gg

Beat TES Storm Combo.

Game 1 he gets blown out by Painter's Servant Grindstone because I get a easy Painter out and start Celestial Purging his Chrome Mox and then Abolish his Lion's Eye Diamond, shortly after I get a Grindstone.
Game 2 he blows me out. (Ad Nauseam)
Game 3 I stick a Rest in Peace, his hand contains the 1 Ad Nauseam that deck contains and has to exile it to Lion's Eye Diamond. He makes 10 mana and goes for Infernal Tutor, it ends up being RRRRRR and BB, he is forced to use a Tendrils of Agony for 12 and I go to 8. (He sticks a turn 1 Leyline of Sanctity (some tech I suppose) to fight PainterGrindstone and I Abolish that as well)
Shortly after he concedes because he cannot do anything.

Warmth, Refraction Trap, Oblivion Ring and Rest in Peace can fight Storm decks. (Whats worse for a Ad Nauseam player going to a low life total to see a game loss because of a Refraction Trap in response to their EtW Swing? And they did it all with Dark Rituals/Lotus Petal, no Rite of Flames needed because of Painter) Warmth? Storm to 9, I gain 18 life with Painter out. Oblivion Ring for more artifact/enchantment hate and Rest in Peace to stop Graveyard combos.

I don't need to say more except that Storm can be handled from Enchantment hate we already have or using a odd ball approach. Both seem just fine if you intend to dodge Storm.

^And?

First, I have some experience playing with/against storm combo, and your opponent, by the way you describe the matches, seems to be just horrible at playing it. Game 1: I can't imagine a excuse for getting LED blown, game 3: I don't even know where to start, Leyline of Sanctity? seriously? a practically uncastable 4 mana spell in an Ad Nauseum deck sideboarded against a match-up where it does nothing relevant? Maybe its a new trend, but no, tcdecks shows a grand total of zero ad nauseum decks with Leyline, which puts his build into question. And the tendrils for 12? Again there is no reasonable line of play that ends like that.

So you beat once a bad player and your conclusion is that your oddball approach is the a viable solution to the storm match-up. Warmth is another card that, while its true that when paired with a Painter negates the Tendrils win, does almost nothing on its own, does nothing on most match-ups and seems to be overkill or win more in the ones it does. It's like when some years ago the UW tempo designer claimed that he had a positive record game 1 against Dredge and showed it with MWS matchs where he in fact win, but not for his deck merits but for is opponents keeping no dredgers hands, mulliganing to oblivion or making ridiculous plays.

So, again, if you propose a strange build claiming it to be the real Tax Deck with a postive match with most decks and like to be taken seriously, please provide good tournament results, reasonable theoretical justification or decent testing. Up to now, there are no results of a deck with a similar approach as yours, the only thing we agree is the great burn match up, you have not addressed any other point besides the bad storm pairing (which was stated not to be a relevant point) and if your conclusions came from testing like that last one allow me to show my doubts.

@Supression Field: it depends on the build. I would like to try to assemble a list with more of a Quinn mix, so it has more options in case Tax in not active, and the nombos start to rise adding SDTs and Sheets. Also multiples, which you really want against fetchlands, could really hurt you, as five for scrolling or helming, four for elspeth activation it's a lot in a deck wanting to have as few lands as possible. Nevertheless, it will be more of a meta/rogue factor choice, so it's worth testing if now it's the fitting one (I don't know how is mine as due to work I hadn't be able to play for a while).

kamui8899

02-04-2013, 01:09 AM

I originally took this up because I was attempting to draw up a deck that worked well in current meta which is rampant with stoneblade/JUND/BUG/Team america.

I am attempting to run a W/U mashup of parfait:

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/452676

Really the boons of running blue with white is that you have the obvious daze combo, access to counterbalance, tezzerat is playable, i had also initially added blue with the intention of running a snapcaster/divert to address the ton of thoughtseize/abrupt decay that is permeating the general meta atm...

1) Daze with land tax is obvious why it is useful, also can come out turn 1 or 2 which seems to be the weakest point of this deck.

2) Counterbalance isn't necessarily a "win more" card. There are circumstances where land tax can't be played/activated, also if you happen to draw an empty hand with no rack/tax counterbalance with top is still useful while you sift for combo pieces. Also remains useful as a late game draw as it never hurts to drop a CB while rack/top is on table (as long as you don't draw two, but then u throw one back to rack), feel this is still good even with abrupt decay, intention is to sideboard some divert/misdirection that I can board in against BUG for annoying thoughtseize hate/abrupt decay games 2-3. Also has some soft synergy with enlightened tutor which keeps tutor from being a dead draw late after engine is ramped up...

3) tezz is similar to elspereth but I like that he lets me draw through my library and collect artifacts, this helps thin the deck for magic bullets and also ramps up the hand again for scroll rack, giving an additional draw engine besides tax. I am running a somewhat artifact heavy build intentionally as the mox diamonds/tops/rack itself can be useful later without just being duplicates (serve to fuel draw engine/wincon).

Have only done a paucity of play testing, but, the main issue I am having is turn 1-2 where I am getting blown out by well placed thought-seize/targeted discard, turn one thought-seize (if the person knows at all what you are playing) is brutal if it rips a rack out of your hand or forces you to discard rest in piece against BUG etc. Similarly cheap combo decks such as combo elves will have a progen on turn 3 very consistently which I think is difficult to deal with. I feel as though chant/silence has to be run almost mandatory to slow down opponent, game winner I feel is really humility in all circumstances and then defending the card unless you get a lucky rest in piece -> helm that is not disrupted. Deck feels very slow to turn 3-4 where if I can drop rack and tax for even 1-2 turns uninterrupted I can usually winout... Thoughts on my list? May be bringing this to SCG this weekend for legacy competition haven't piloted parfait competitively before....

capricorn

04-01-2013, 08:30 PM

Ya I have a suggestion. Play the real TaxRack deck.

4 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Mox Diamond
14 Plains
4 Tithe
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
3 Rest in Peace
3 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Celestial Purge
4 Argivian Find
4 Abolish
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Absolute Law
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Warmth
SB: 2 Refraction Trap

Have fun.

When I was playing tax/rack about 6 months ago, it was in something I built that would create a series of board locks. This is the first time I've tried it in more of a combo strategy. I sleeved it and was unimpressed when I initially looked at it but when a sat to matches with it, Wow...

It isn't as scary as my omni-show but I don't think it is supposed to be. What I like is the ability to catch people off guard and watch the misplays (no, jace can't bounce snapcaster because servant and absolute law are down). Cute goyf, but I'll COP it for now since the servant is down until I draw or tutor a rest in peace.

I play with really seasoned players who can make a variety of decks (New England) and still watch them rib each other when one lets a scroll rack stick.

The ability to Argivian find around counter magic and tutor is certainly powerful.

The weakness I felt the other day was the attempted target of abrupt decay at absolute law. It was keeping the servant safe from a swords at that moment.

It makes me wonder if there is a benefit to greater auramancy. Also thought of Hanna's custody as I play against a liquid metal coating, artifact destruction decks from time to time.

Benie Bederios

05-23-2013, 10:54 AM

Necro time.

I would like to mingle in this discussion earlier, but didn't play magic for about a year or two. Now I was just browsing the internet and found that Land Tax was unbanned for a year now. This was my cue to come back to the format. I started testing different lists and discussed through private messages with (nameless one).

I've read through the thread and started testing.

I've started with a vintage like build, Something like 14 plains, 4 Wasteland, 7 plows, 7 chants, 4 Enlightened Tutors alot of one-offs ed. The deck failed miserably. I had to few lands and really needed Land Tax to get started and didn't get enough out of Landtax because my curve was higher than other decks. The silver bullets I used weren't the best one either. I started testing and the list from (nameless one) seems like a good start.

Things I found:

Manabase

We need to be able to operate on 2/3 lands max to get the max out of Land Tax. If our curve ends on 4 we can't do it only on lands.

The options found in the thread:

- Change the curve to end on 3 mana
- Serra's Sanctum
- Mox Diamond
- Extraplanar Lens
- Lotus Vale/Scorched Ruins
- City of Traitors/Crystal Vein

Lets look at them closer:
Changing the curve to 3 mana max not seems optimal: White has got some very good 4-mana bombs, Elspeth, Knight Errant/Humility foremost. The only kill-condition on 3 mana is Servant, which isn't easy to protect, especially if you have to cast them over more turns.

Serra's Sanctum gets to late online. I counted the enchantments I had down and only in cornercases It produced 3 mana before I won the game.

Mox Diamond is I think an auto-inclusion. The only problem is that it might be hard to cast early on if you play to few lands. But later it's very solid because it keeps the landcount low, you have enough lands in hand thanks to Land Tax. You do want to play more then 20 lands though.

Extraplanar Lens is similar to Lotus Vale. Make more mana with less lands. I keep Scorched Ruins out of the picture, because the need of coloured sources. Both give x for 1 when destroyed. If you look at the development over the first turns Lostus Vale is better: You got 3 mana on turn 3, while you have to tap out for Extraplanar Lens. In multiples there quite even too. 2 Vales against 2 Lens and 2 plains each give 6-mana. Vale only require extra turns to get in to play.

The next question is removal: Extraplanar Lens is a little easier to remove: it can be discarded and there is some more removal to it then Lotus Vale. Destroying Lotus Vale is a 3 for 1 instead of a 2 for 1.

Looking at the tierdecks I rather play Lotus Vale. I found the third turn to important to tap out for Extraplanar Lens. I also found it easier to protect Lotus Vale (Pithing Needle on Wasteland.)

City of Traitors or Crystal Veins. Also a solid option. In my opinion City of Traitors is superior to Crystal Veins. Being able to tap 2 mana in 2 turns is better. If you don't need the two mana just don't play City of Traitors.

So the manabase should be something like:

3-4 Mox Diamond
3-4 Lotus Vale
13-14 Lands
4 City of Traitors

The lands could be basics combined with Ghost Quarters. I don't like Ghost Quarters but with the new legendary rules it might be needed to destroy some utility lands.

It is very weird for a deck that can work on so few lands you need so many sources. But actually it's 18 lands, because Mox Diamond and Lotus Vale can't be count as lands. On top of that Land Tax main task is to gain card-advantage and not to fix the manabase. Also is it easier to play through land-flood instead of land-screw.

Looking at draw additionaly next to Land Tax-Scroll Rack. The best option is Sensei's Divinig Top. Everybody agree's that. Another option would be to splash blue for Jace, the mindsculptor. Brainstorm isn't a optimal fit in the deck. You lack fetchlands and you want white mana early on.

So let say

4 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Another discussion I found were the number of Enlightened Tutor. There are two solid points: 1) You have to play 4 because you want to see them every game or 2) You have to play less then four, because multiple sucks. I myself play 4 and would that suggest that. Sure having 2 in the openinghand sucks, but after that you just tutor for Scroll Rack and shuffle the other one away. So the card is never dead in your hand.

4 Enlightened Tutor

Spot Removal

Swords to Plowshare vs. Path to Exile. Another though choice, both are great. Swords to Plowshare always has the same minor drawback. Path to Exile has sometimes a bigger drawback, sometimes no drawback(if the opponent can't/won't find a land) sometimes an advantage. I think the choice depends alot on the decks you will face. Against decks with Vial and cheap creatures Path to Exile is normally better, the opponent can't really abuse the excess in lands. Against aggro-control decks it might be dangerous to give them the mana.

Another pro I find on Path to Exile is that it seems better post-board. Opponents will try to play around Land Tax and Path to Exile can fight this.

So in short:
4 Swords to Plowshare / Path to Exile
3/4 Terminus

I think this is the core of the deck. The rest isn't strict. We have room for some utility and we need to win the game. Lets start with Utility. The best cards are Humility, Pithing Needle and Oblivion Ring. Humility is better than Moat because of al the utility creatures running around. Combined they are really good, but if you can put down one it would be Humility. Pithing Needle is needed to fight Wasteland. Getting your Lotus Vale wasted is sad. But using it on Planeswalker isn't a bad thing too. Oblivion Ring is the best we got as a catch-all. For the rest it depends on your meta, if you want to play Isochron Scepter, Moat, SmokeStack, Rule of Law, Trinisphere, Circle of Protection be my guest. But if you won't know what to expect I would suggest Humility, Pithing Needle and Oblivion Ring. A little metadependent but almost always solid is Rest in Peace. It stops some strategies of top-decks stone-cold, it also give you the option to play Helm of Obidience.

Kill conditions should finish the game fast and are hard to stop. Normaly Goblin Belcher was used with Sacred Mesa. Because we want to keep the mana down, I rather play Elspeth, Knight Errant now then Sacred Mesa. Sure when you can create 6 mana a turn at least Sacred Mesa is solid. But with Elspeth, Knight Errant you just need to spend 4 mana once and you're good to go.

Goblin Charbelcher is still possible. I wouldn't play other utility lands if you want to do it reliable. it costs 7 mana if you're lucky. But sometimes it takes 2 or 3 turns to win and that might be too slow.

If you play Rest in Peace anyway, Helm of Obidience is very solid too. Only problem is that it's kinda bad on it's own. Although I once was lucky with Emrakul.

Painter Servant / Grind Stone isn't for this deck I believe. both pieces are bad on there own. Game one the opponent will likely have a hand for creature removal for creatures. You need Orim's Chant to protect it and 7 mana to pull it off. It also fails to Emrakul.

Other card choices I've seen are Balancing Act or Cataclysm. Both aren't optimal in this deck. Balancing Act is just a weak card in this deck, you have to much permanents. Even if you got a light board of Lotus Vale, Mox Diamond, Land Tax and Scroll Rack it's still quite weak. Opponents just keep 2 creatures and 2 lands and you are still loosing.

Cataclysm is very solid on paper, but in reality not so good. First you don't play creatures, so never can take full effect of it. Lots of deck can live with it, as long as they don't overextend. I'm just afraid I will stare down a Island+Aether Vial+Merfolk or Land+Counterbalance+Sensei's Divining Top or something.

The biggest flaw we might need to adress is the fast combo-matchup. Pre-board it's probably horrible having very few answers for it. Sure you can run cards like Rule of Law or Trinisphere MD but does that really stop them? Post-board they will board in bounce but hopefully we can board enough cards to stop them.

Another weak matchup I found in testing was Counterbalance. Our curve isn't that good against them. Needle on Top helps a little, but need to be played before hand.

If we can shore up our weakest matchups this should be a tier 2 deck at least I think.

Any comments?

(nameless one)

05-23-2013, 03:15 PM

The three reasons why I ran Pithing Needle on my list was:

Super Jace, Sensei's Divining Top and Wasteland (to some extent Fetchlands). If the deck could find a way to abuse Suppression Field, it would be great but hampering your own Scroll Rack and Elspeth also sucks.

You also have to keep in mind that the posted list was before Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman took off. Deal with the Deathrite should be bad but Abrupt Decay is really good against the deck.

Another idea that I had was to splash red, mainly for Blood Moon, Burning Wish and a defacto way of protecting your pieces: Boros Charm.

I might revisit Orim's Chant

Benie Bederios

05-26-2013, 09:42 AM

Wouldn't Back to Basics have a better effect for this deck then Blood Moon? Forcing players to play more lands, so they can keep casting spells seems solid.

Playing Blood Moon or B2B will change your manabase. Lotus Vale should go (a mountain wich destroys to lands of you own / a Black Lotus that costs to untapped lands is just sad.) If that's the case I would really like to see a sacrifice outlet for the lands.

If I would splash red, I think the first card to include would be devastating dreams. The "at random" is the only downside.

BB

(nameless one)

05-26-2013, 01:14 PM

Benie Bederios

05-29-2013, 07:38 AM

Finn and I discussed about that before too. Along with Faithless Looting and Winds of Change (and Supresion Field) in place of Scroll Rack).

The deck isn't tier1 right now but I enjoy playing it once in a while. Have I ever finished 1st overall with my list? No. Have I topped 8 with it? Multiple times but not on a 30+ stage.

It's not perfect but I am still hoping that a card or two will get printed in the near future to help the deck (see Rest in Peace)

So I tried to make a list using the cards above, but I can't make it work... Suppresion Field is nice and all, but it stops more cards in the deck then I would like. Elspeth got worse. Because Faitless Looting you can't use the Rest in Piece to full extend (a card I'm very happy about.) With that Helm of Obedience doesn't work. Belcher costs 9 mana to cast and activate.

Also quite some time it did enter the battlefield, but didn't make the impact I would like. Sure T1 Field, T2 Landtax with an opponent having multiple fetches in had is solid. But I needing alot of mana to kill the opponent couldn't take advantage of it. After turn 3 it doesn't really effect the board-state. The opponent still could turn the Goyf and Deathrite Shaman sideways to beat my face. Something Rest in Piece stops better.

The card would be good times if I could consitently play it early on and could use the turns it gave me to lock the opponent out of the game / win the game. I also tried it as 1-off as Silver Bullet, but in all cases I rather tutored for Needle/Oblivion Ring/Humility/Helm of Obedience.

If you want to stop fetches I would say Blood Moon wins it easily and Pithing Needle is good enough to stop Plainswalkers and stuff.

So I'm back to optimzing the white version with or without a splash small to red, mostly for Blood Moon. Devastating Dreams while a very good card is still worse then Terminus and I don't have room to add in another slot.

But now I'm stuck for the sideboard, but I can't go any further then 4 Leyline of Sancity/4 Trinisphere/ 3 Aura of Silence. Any suggestions?

.BB.

(nameless one)

05-29-2013, 07:49 AM

I would suggest Karmic Justice although that's just a catch-all thing. What does your meta look like?

Darkenslight

05-30-2013, 03:09 AM

Would you ever consider the two-card softlock of Storage Matrix and Relic Barrier?

(nameless one)

05-30-2013, 06:46 AM

I don't think it helps the deck.

In the early game, you want I deal with threats. You want removal against aggro/creature based strategies. Against control you want to assemble your draw engine to be ahead of the card advantage game. Against combo is tricky since you want to slow them down and win before they recover.

There are already alternatives to the softlock you've mention.

I want talk about a couple of things:

-M14 rules change. The deck runs a fair amount of artifacts. It could be possible that Mox Opal can be used and abused in this deck. It helps Land Tax in tandem with Mox Diamond.

-compared to the old vs new Parfait, the old Parfait used to run Planar Birth to "win" the game. It either achieved this via fueling Sacred Mesa or resolving high end casting cost control elements.

The win part has been fixed by efficient two-card combos but I feel like there is stil something missing from the "from nothing to everything" land count of the old.

Benie Bederios

05-31-2013, 04:23 AM

I would suggest Karmic Justice although that's just a catch-all thing. What does your meta look like?

Not sure, a mix between scrub decks (so no worries there, this deck has a very solid matchup against scrub) and some top decks, Storm Combo, Show and Tell combo, Merfolk, and some Cascade decks probably. I think there won't be to much Counterbalance and/or true control. And probably some Elves deck too.

My SB at the moment:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
1 Rule of Law
1 Nevermore
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Moat
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Karmic Justice

Not sure about the the Leyline of Sanctity. Although quite good, it bugs me that I have to bring in 4 all the time.

I don't think it helps the deck.

In the early game, you want I deal with threats. You want removal against aggro/creature based strategies. Against control you want to assemble your draw engine to be ahead of the card advantage game. Against combo is tricky since you want to slow them down and win before they recover.

There are already alternatives to the softlock you've mention.

I want talk about a couple of things:

-M14 rules change. The deck runs a fair amount of artifacts. It could be possible that Mox Opal can be used and abused in this deck. It helps Land Tax in tandem with Mox Diamond.

To be honest, I didn't konw Mox Opal was Legendary until I Read it on the other thread about the new rules. That being said, I wouldn't run it instead of Mox Diamond. Maybe if I need a fifth Mox, Mox Opal would fit the spot, but Chrome Mox atleast makes sure I have the mana directly, not in the mid/late game.

-compared to the old vs new Parfait, the old Parfait used to run Planar Birth to "win" the game. It either achieved this via fueling Sacred Mesa or resolving high end casting cost control elements.

The win part has been fixed by efficient two-card combos but I feel like there is stil something missing from the "from nothing to everything" land count of the old.

I rather win the game then do cute things. It's a pity it combo's like this doesn't work with Rest in Peace. But if you want to go that way, I rather ditch all Enchantments into the grave and win through Replenish, Seems better then gettin al Plains in play tapped... Or you wan't to go all out on red or something with Burning Wish, so you can tutor for Banefire and finish the opponent. But that's I think far from optimal.

What I do miss is a solid alternative draw engine. At the moment I play with 4 Scroll Rack, 4 Land Tax, 3 Sensei's Divining Top. But Scroll Rack and Top doesn't draw cards. Pursuit of Knowledge is just bad. Scrying Sheets forces you to play at least 20 snow-cards. I'm thinking of adding a number of Tithe to deck, but not sure for what. In the past I could use Isochron Scepter combined with Abeyance. But everyone seems to be agreeing that Isochron Scepter is bad in the deck. Why exactly is the card not good enough anymore (I've been out of the game 2 years)? Shahrazad being banned makes it less powerfull.

.BB.

(nameless one)

05-31-2013, 06:48 AM

@ your sideboard:

I would add more Trinisphere. What I remove is based on your discretion.

@ secondary draw engine:

What's wrong with it? SDT sets you up do much with X-for-1, allowing you to find things like Humility and help you set up miracle triggers.

PirateKing

05-31-2013, 12:46 PM

(nameless one) or anyone else with a running list: I have a Quinn deck that is just collecting dust for a number of reasons. It's fragments and trying too hard to do too many tings and I don't know where I want to take it. It has the Quinn engine, the parfait engine, RiP/Helm, Stoneforge/Batterskull, the result of minor tweaks over the years without a complete update.

Any recommendations on what to commit to or how to move forward on something tangible?

Thanks

(nameless one)

05-31-2013, 07:24 PM

I wouldn't concentrate on Stoneforge/Batterskull. That "combo" is only great against aggro and midrange, something the deck is already good at.

I would concentrate on having the win condition within RIP/Helm.

The problem with Quinn (snowland draw) in junction with the Parfait engine is that Quinn requires you to have a lot of snowlands. While Land Tax is limited to just basic land tutoring, your manabase can still have a number of utility lands without hindering the Parfait engine.

Would you like to post your list?

PirateKing

05-31-2013, 08:08 PM

Benie Bederios

06-01-2013, 04:36 AM

Not so much my list but what happens to be in the sleeves as of this writing. My friends are telling me to just make UW Miracles , but I want to show them that monowhite is best.

14 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
2 Kor Haven
1 Karakas

3 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Batterskull

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Scroll Rack
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Land Tax

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon Jura
1 Decree of Justice

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Terminus
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility

3 Argivian Find
2 Pulse of the Fields
2 Runed Halo
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Aura of Silence
1 Powder Keg
1 Nevermore
1 Sacred Ground
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Story Circle

You do try to do alot of things. Some notes: Is 18 snow-lands a little low for running Scrying Sheets? Is Gideon Jura any good?

I think you're trying to do to much. You have alot of win-conditions, no real acceleration to the bombs and for that quite few quick answers. You're deck also looks quite mana hungry for a Land Tax deck. If you want to keep your deck a little like this, IBA posted a list that might be a better start. It used both Scrying Sheet and Land Tax but used Extraplanar Lens to make more use out of Land Tax and being able to get enough mana for the expensive spells.

@ your sideboard:

I would add more Trinisphere. What I remove is based on your discretion.

@ secondary draw engine:

What's wrong with it? SDT sets you up do much with X-for-1, allowing you to find things like Humility and help you set up miracle triggers.

There is nothing wrong with Sensei's Divining Top, only that it doesn't draw cards. I didn't want to play Tithe instead of Sensei's Divining Top, but in combination.

My engine at the moment is:

4 Land Tax
2 Tithe
4 Scroll Rack
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Not yet sold on Tithe though, but it was just something to try. With Tithe you got 10 shuffle effects in the deck and 6 cards that give you more cards in hand, to better setup Scroll Rack.

.Bb>

bruizar

06-01-2013, 06:32 AM

Dark Depths is a snow permanent. Might want to use it if you're going for scrying sheets engine.

PirateKing

06-01-2013, 10:49 AM

I'd rather move away from the slow attempt an inevitability that is the Quinn engine, since parfait can generate actual card advantage with Scroll Rack, whereas Quinn only got you card+land. Having a hand full of cards is powerful, but not if they're all Plains.

I feel the main weakness I encounter is lack of shuffle effects to really power Scroll Rack to dig deep consistently. That is the real reasons Stoneforge Mystic stuck around. I will try out Tithe in its place, and move harder into Land Tax with some Mox Diamonds and see how that goes.

In what meta would you recommend Moat in main board vs sideboard vs not at all?

(nameless one)

06-02-2013, 10:15 PM

If you want to run shuffle effects, why not run Fetchlands? Maybe Ghost Quarters for added "utility"? Or Flagstones of Trokair? That card is essentially a glorified Plains that comes with a shuffle effect.

Kitchen-Table-Mage

06-03-2013, 10:20 AM

Hi, I'm a newbie, who doesn't play tournament mtg due to a lack of time and will to drive for more than an hour. I apologize for my subpar English for I am not a native speaker. With all that said, I'd like to have my W/R decklist diskussed - here it is...

[20 Lands]
9 Plains
1 Mountains
3 Arid Mesa (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Arid+Mesa&v=card&s=cname)
1 Plateau (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Plateau&v=card&s=cname)
3 City of Traitors (http://magiccards.info/query?q=City+of+Traitors&v=card&s=cname)
3 Lotus Vale (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Lotus+Vale&v=card&s=cname)

[1 Planeswalker]
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Elspeth%2C+Knight-Errant&v=card&s=cname)

[14 Artifacts]
4 Mox Diamond (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Mox+Diamond&v=card&s=cname)
1 Zuran Orb (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Zuran+Orb&v=card&s=cname)
2 Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pithing+Needle&v=card&s=cname)
2 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Sensei%27s+Divining+Top&v=card&s=cname)
2 Isochron Scepter (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Isochron+Scepter&v=card&s=cname)
2 Scroll Rack (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Scroll+Rack&v=card&s=cname)
1 Helm of Obedience (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Helm+of+Obedience&v=card&s=cname)

(8 Enchantements)
4 Land Tax (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Land+Tax&v=card&s=cname)
1 Rest in Peace (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Rest+in+Peace&v=card&s=cname)
1 Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Oblivion+Ring&v=card&s=cname)
1 Blood Moon (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Blood+Moon&v=card&s=cname)
1 Humility (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Humility&v=card&s=cname)

[14 Instants]
4 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Enlightened+Tutor&v=card&s=cname)
2 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Swords+to+Plowshares&v=card&s=cname)
2 Orim's Chant (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Orim%27s+Chant&v=card&s=cname)
2 Lightning Helix (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Lightning+Helix&v=card&s=cname)
2 Boros Charm (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Boros+Charm&v=card&s=cname)
2 Argivian Find (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Argivian+Find&v=card&s=cname)

[3 Sorceries]
3 Terminus (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Terminus&v=card&s=cname)

Sideboard t.b.d.

Notes: Obviously I tried to mix the Parfait and the Scepter Chant strategie (yes, I'm old school!) and rely on three win conditions - RiP/Helm, Elspeth or imprinted damage. This dck is only roughly tested (on the kitchen table, you guessed it).
I think a big concern of parfait decks is their speed, so I tried to make this as cheap as possible. I like the mana base, with Lotus Vale (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Lotus+Vale&v=card&s=cname) or City of Traitors (http://magiccards.info/query?q=City+of+Traitors&v=card&s=cname) helping me getting started. You can pitch them into Mox Diamonds, or, later on, their drawback might be erased by Blood Moon (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Blood+Moon&v=card&s=cname).
I strongly reject all arguments for Path to Exile (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Path+to+Exile&v=card&s=cname). Remember: it doesn't necessarily trigger your Land Tax (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Land+Tax&v=card&s=cname) - your opponent choses whether to take the extra basic land or not. And if he does, this acceleration might cost you the game (i.e. against Miracle, Maverick), especially as it is anti-synergistic with Blood Moon (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Blood+Moon&v=card&s=cname).
The Lotus Vales are risky (if they are killed is a three land loss), so I protect them with Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pithing+Needle&v=card&s=cname) or the second ability of 2 Boros Charm (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Boros+Charm&v=card&s=cname).
You might think that 2 StoP is too little, but I hate to have too many dead cards against non-creature decks, so I put 2 Lightning Helix (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Lightning+Helix&v=card&s=cname) in the main for greater flexibility.
I like the 2 Argivian Find (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Argivian+Find&v=card&s=cname), cause I have 22 targets - same goes for the E-Tutor.
Some cards which didn't make the cut, but deserve to be mentioned:
Lotus Petal (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Lotus+Petal&v=card&s=cname): this is no tempo deck, so I prefer the Moxes
Porphyry Nodes (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Porphyry+Nodes&v=card&s=cname): isn't Terminus faster and better?
Firestorm (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Firestorm&v=card&s=cname): it's definitely worth testing, great with the Tax/Rack engine working...
Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Wasteland&v=card&s=cname): staple card, but I don't wanna go below 10 basics
Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Crucible+of+Worlds&v=card&s=cname): it doesn't help early in the game
Ivory Tower (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Ivory+Tower&v=card&s=cname): tell me, is it better than Zuran Orb (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Zuran+Orb&v=card&s=cname)??

Thanks in advance for any constructive comments. I hope some of you might want to really test it. Although it's not tier 1 stuff, it's still good and fun!

Benie Bederios

06-03-2013, 11:30 AM

Dark Depths is a snow permanent. Might want to use it if you're going for scrying sheets engine.
It would be though to fit it in the deck though. Land Tax doesn't really like lands that doesn't tap for mana, and we need to splash green for land searching. Something to think about though.

I'd rather move away from the slow attempt an inevitability that is the Quinn engine, since parfait can generate actual card advantage with Scroll Rack, whereas Quinn only got you card+land. Having a hand full of cards is powerful, but not if they're all Plains.

I feel the main weakness I encounter is lack of shuffle effects to really power Scroll Rack to dig deep consistently. That is the real reasons Stoneforge Mystic stuck around. I will try out Tithe in its place, and move harder into Land Tax with some Mox Diamonds and see how that goes.

In what meta would you recommend Moat in main board vs sideboard vs not at all?

In the main rarely. Maybe a 1/1 split with Humility. The problems aren't normally the beaters, but the utility creatures. I have a Moat in the sideboard to stop decks that can't do alot against enchantments and you can lock them out completely. Normally comes in with Greater Auramancy. Moat is still a strong card and I think better in stopping Ichorid MD then Humility, unless they play Dread Return.

If you want to run shuffle effects, why not run Fetchlands? Maybe Ghost Quarters for added "utility"? Or Flagstones of Trokair? That card is essentially a glorified Plains that comes with a shuffle effect.

True, I didn't really wanted more shuffle effects, but now just swapped out 2 Plains for 2 fetches. Is there a minimum of shuffle effects you must play before Top becomes good?

Hi, I'm a newbie, who doesn't play tournament mtg due to a lack of time and will to drive for more than an hour. I apologize for my subpar English for I am not a native speaker. With all that said, I'd like to have my W/R decklist diskussed - here it is...

[20 Lands]
9 Plains
1 Mountains
3 Arid Mesa (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Arid+Mesa&v=card&s=cname)
1 Plateau (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Plateau&v=card&s=cname)
3 City of Traitors (http://magiccards.info/query?q=City+of+Traitors&v=card&s=cname)
3 Lotus Vale (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Lotus+Vale&v=card&s=cname)

[1 Planeswalker]
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Elspeth%2C+Knight-Errant&v=card&s=cname)

[14 Artifacts]
4 Mox Diamond (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Mox+Diamond&v=card&s=cname)
1 Zuran Orb (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Zuran+Orb&v=card&s=cname)
2 Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pithing+Needle&v=card&s=cname)
2 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Sensei%27s+Divining+Top&v=card&s=cname)
2 Isochron Scepter (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Isochron+Scepter&v=card&s=cname)
2 Scroll Rack (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Scroll+Rack&v=card&s=cname)
1 Helm of Obedience (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Helm+of+Obedience&v=card&s=cname)

(8 Enchantements)
4 Land Tax (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Land+Tax&v=card&s=cname)
1 Rest in Peace (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Rest+in+Peace&v=card&s=cname)
1 Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Oblivion+Ring&v=card&s=cname)
1 Blood Moon (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Blood+Moon&v=card&s=cname)
1 Humility (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Humility&v=card&s=cname)

[14 Instants]
4 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Enlightened+Tutor&v=card&s=cname)
2 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Swords+to+Plowshares&v=card&s=cname)
2 Orim's Chant (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Orim%27s+Chant&v=card&s=cname)
2 Lightning Helix (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Lightning+Helix&v=card&s=cname)
2 Boros Charm (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Boros+Charm&v=card&s=cname)
2 Argivian Find (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Argivian+Find&v=card&s=cname)

[3 Sorceries]
3 Terminus (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Terminus&v=card&s=cname)

Sideboard t.b.d.

Notes: Obviously I tried to mix the Parfait and the Scepter Chant strategie (yes, I'm old school!) and rely on three win conditions - RiP/Helm, Elspeth or imprinted damage. This dck is only roughly tested (on the kitchen table, you guessed it).
I think a big concern of parfait decks is their speed, so I tried to make this as cheap as possible. I like the mana base, with Lotus Vale (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Lotus+Vale&v=card&s=cname) or City of Traitors (http://magiccards.info/query?q=City+of+Traitors&v=card&s=cname) helping me getting started. You can pitch them into Mox Diamonds, or, later on, their drawback might be erased by Blood Moon (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Blood+Moon&v=card&s=cname).
I strongly reject all arguments for Path to Exile (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Path+to+Exile&v=card&s=cname). Remember: it doesn't necessarily trigger your Land Tax (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Land+Tax&v=card&s=cname) - your opponent choses whether to take the extra basic land or not. And if he does, this acceleration might cost you the game (i.e. against Miracle, Maverick), especially as it is anti-synergistic with Blood Moon (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Blood+Moon&v=card&s=cname).
The Lotus Vales are risky (if they are killed is a three land loss), so I protect them with Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pithing+Needle&v=card&s=cname) or the second ability of 2 Boros Charm (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Boros+Charm&v=card&s=cname).
You might think that 2 StoP is too little, but I hate to have too many dead cards against non-creature decks, so I put 2 Lightning Helix (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Lightning+Helix&v=card&s=cname) in the main for greater flexibility.
I like the 2 Argivian Find (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Argivian+Find&v=card&s=cname), cause I have 22 targets - same goes for the E-Tutor.
Some cards which didn't make the cut, but deserve to be mentioned:
Lotus Petal (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Lotus+Petal&v=card&s=cname): this is no tempo deck, so I prefer the Moxes
Porphyry Nodes (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Porphyry+Nodes&v=card&s=cname): isn't Terminus faster and better?
Firestorm (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Firestorm&v=card&s=cname): it's definitely worth testing, great with the Tax/Rack engine working...
Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Wasteland&v=card&s=cname): staple card, but I don't wanna go below 10 basics
Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Crucible+of+Worlds&v=card&s=cname): it doesn't help early in the game
Ivory Tower (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Ivory+Tower&v=card&s=cname): tell me, is it better than Zuran Orb (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Zuran+Orb&v=card&s=cname)??

Thanks in advance for any constructive comments. I hope some of you might want to really test it. Although it's not tier 1 stuff, it's still good and fun!

It seems your deck lacks focus. You do know that you still have to sac 2 lands under Blood Moon to Lotus Vale right? Why the 2/2 split between Sensei's Divining Top and Scroll Rack. Isochron Scepter lock is nice, but without the tools to find the instants it might be a liability.

Path to Exile / Swords to Plowshare: It's your preference. Against Maverick and Miracle it might cost you. But other times it's just golden. If the opponent doesn't find a land with Path, you just got removal without drawback. The split between Swords to Plowshare and Lightning Helix is possbile. Does it happen often that you can't kill the target with Hellix?

Argivianan Find got booted in my list because I play 2/3 Rest in Peace MD, but if you only have one, it's a solid card.

Fire Storm is just worse then Terminus now. Both work best with Tax/Rack, but Teminus is a little easier to use.

Ivory Tower / Zuran Orb. Both are bad except if you run into alot of Zoo/Burn decks. I wouldn't play either.

.Bb>

(nameless one)

06-03-2013, 12:21 PM

PirateKing

06-03-2013, 12:43 PM

Any pronounced problems with Tithe? Seems like a good shuffle effect to reset scroll rack but maintain a healthy hand size to keep digging deep. I'm going to test it in my list, but any test results would be appreciated. I'll also try running 4x Flagstones, but I feel that forcing in shuffles just for the sake of shuffles isn't going to do us any good.

Rest in Peace hoses Goyf, DRS, and a whole slew of graveyard decks, but it also get us one step closer to killing with Helm.
Likewise, SFM shuffles the deck, but also helps power out a quality beater in Batterskull.

In Quinn, Eternal Dragon was my go to shuffler, giving me land drops every turn while recurring himself and then in a pinch or late games, coming through as a 5/5. With RiP as our kill now though, I feel like I'm struggling to find something as good, and only being disappointed. I need a white source to shuffle that is also offering some quality that isn't useless. So far I haven't found it.

Benie Bederios

06-04-2013, 08:33 AM

Benie got most of it. A couple things I would like to "talk" about:

Against Ichorid, I'd still prefer Humility over Moat. Ichorids don't die under Humility which don't trigger Bridge from Belows. So no fodder for Dread Returns and they can't combo kill you via Flayer.

On SDT with Fetchlands/Shuffle effects: when I used to run Quinn, I never ran shuffle effects outside of E-tutor, so I wouldn't know. But if you really want a shuffle effect, Flagstones of Trokair post M14 anyone?

How is Flagstone of Trokair better then a fetch? You have to run 4 instead of 1/2 and you need a second to shuffle. Or you must run cards like Zuran Orb.

I don't need extra shuffle effects, but it's nice to have, if it doesn't hurt the deck right?

Has anyone some experience with a singleton Serra Sanctum? I saw it in some lists, it looks good on paper, but maybe not consitent enough.

Any pronounced problems with Tithe? Seems like a good shuffle effect to reset scroll rack but maintain a healthy hand size to keep digging deep. I'm going to test it in my list, but any test results would be appreciated. I'll also try running 4x Flagstones, but I feel that forcing in shuffles just for the sake of shuffles isn't going to do us any good.

Rest in Peace hoses Goyf, DRS, and a whole slew of graveyard decks, but it also get us one step closer to killing with Helm.
Likewise, SFM shuffles the deck, but also helps power out a quality beater in Batterskull.

In Quinn, Eternal Dragon was my go to shuffler, giving me land drops every turn while recurring himself and then in a pinch or late games, coming through as a 5/5. With RiP as our kill now though, I feel like I'm struggling to find something as good, and only being disappointed. I need a white source to shuffle that is also offering some quality that isn't useless. So far I haven't found it.

This and that with Scrying Sheets you can draw 2 cards most turn and see 2 new cards those turns. Also with Scroll Rack shuffling is even better. Against some decks you can only tax that many times. With you handsize on 6/7 you can do alot more filtering with shuffle effects.

On another note:

I was making a list for possible Enchantments to run. Has anyone any experience with a black splash, mainly for Chains of Mephistopheles? It fits the deck quite good and seems decent and fast enough to at least hamper some decks, without hurting us.

It's a pity I can't find any other good cards. The Abyss and Nether Void are both to expensive to make an impact. And I don't know what to cut from the deck for it.

Splashing 2 colours is a also possible but it's stretching the mana-base a bit.

.Bb>

Kitchen-Table-Mage

06-05-2013, 05:16 AM

capricorn

06-12-2013, 08:34 PM

I like where this conversation seems to be going. I've tried a few ways of playing with Tax/Rack. I am not a seasoned veteran with it, but am the only one in the area attempting to stretch out of the norm with it from time to time. I have found some synergies that were quite potent in my experiences. I did it as BANT for a while. There was a great deal of value in having a wheel of sun and moon on the board as a 4-of enlightened tutor kept recurring (as did the Sterling Groves). The deck was full of silver-bullet board lock pieces. Wheel of sun and moon with energy field was one. Wheel of sun and moon alongside a Rest in Peace was also good as I could thin my deck at will (choosing which replacement effect to apply) as well as hose some strategies. Turn 1 "Mox Diamond, Land Tax - Go" always felt so good, especially when followed with turn 2 "Scroll Rack".

I feel the need to share this little story. I built the deck using Lotus Petals as well (they could recur due to wheel and keep on-board land low). Somebody borrowed the build to test against Esper Stoneblade. The Esper player got jace to ultimate and lost to a sterling grove recurring through a wheel of sun and moon. There wasn't an answer. Admittedly, the opponent not having an answer is not a win condition, but the decks couldn't protect itself without countermagic of it's own. Manabond with ensnaring bridge held back everything as desired, and Zuran Orb with Explorations set my turns up. I didn't seem to play much on their turn anyway without countermagic.

As a player and fan of Omni-Show and having changed it to handle O-rings and such, I know that hand disruption hurts that deck bad and with cunning wishes main board, O-Rings don't phase it. I am currently working on another Tax/Rack and am considering W/B or a more esper build myself. The moxen were good but on those cases when EE would activate for 0, I was dead for keeping my Land Count down. That is why I liked the Borderpost reference on a previous page. The Moxen are, of course, desired as preference and am considering using Opals as well. Post M14 they can be petals anyway which worked for me before.

Anyway, just sharing some thoughts as I work on a list. I will try to post more after a build and more testing.

Benie Bederios

06-13-2013, 05:34 AM

Sorry I missed the quite similar WR list TaxMan posted on page 6. And thanks @Benie for your helpful feedback, I'll follow your advice...
Truely, we want Scroll Rack (http://magiccards.info/query?q=scroll+rack&v=card&s=cname) over SDT in this deck so I'll change to 3 and 1.
And I'll cut Zuran Orb (http://magiccards.info/query?q=zuran+orb&v=card&s=cname) cause it only delays your loss instead of changing the momentum.
I think I'll add a thrid Boros Charm (http://magiccards.info/query?q=boros+charm&v=card&s=cname), because I'm quite happy with its flexibility, even under the Scepter.
Regarding you missing the focus: Yes, my decklist has some 2 ofs and no way of finding instants, but: 1) is there a Tutor-esque way to find instants in White / Red / Colorless, and 2) can't we wait for drawing one of the 6 key instants?
You're right, I terribly forgot that Blood Moon doesn't have an ETB effekt on Lotus Vale (http://magiccards.info/query?q=lotus+vale&v=card&s=cname) :frown:, although it's crystal clear...

The problem with your six key instants is that they are all for different uses. You want the right instant for the right moment. You can't stall combo long enough until you find Orim's Chant. You might still loose the race against a Tarmogoyf while you imprinted Lightning Helix or Boros Charm.

If you want to play Isochron Scepter, I would play 5/6 Swords to Plowshare / Path to Exile and 5/6 Orim's Chant / Silence / Abeyance. And know what to imprint. Against bgx creature decks go for Swords to Plowshare, because it can at least kill some creatuers before it gets Abrupt Decayed. But Abrupt Decay has alot of targets for your deck, If Isochron Scepter eats one, your Land Tax/Scroll Rack doesn't

I can only think of Sunforger to find instants in those colours. But that card plays them, needs creatures and is expensive.

I like where this conversation seems to be going. I've tried a few ways of playing with Tax/Rack. I am not a seasoned veteran with it, but am the only one in the area attempting to stretch out of the norm with it from time to time. I have found some synergies that were quite potent in my experiences. I did it as BANT for a while. There was a great deal of value in having a wheel of sun and moon on the board as a 4-of enlightened tutor kept recurring (as did the Sterling Groves). The deck was full of silver-bullet board lock pieces. Wheel of sun and moon with energy field was one. Wheel of sun and moon alongside a Rest in Peace was also good as I could thin my deck at will (choosing which replacement effect to apply) as well as hose some strategies. Turn 1 "Mox Diamond, Land Tax - Go" always felt so good, especially when followed with turn 2 "Scroll Rack".

I feel the need to share this little story. I built the deck using Lotus Petals as well (they could recur due to wheel and keep on-board land low). Somebody borrowed the build to test against Esper Stoneblade. The Esper player got jace to ultimate and lost to a sterling grove recurring through a wheel of sun and moon. There wasn't an answer. Admittedly, the opponent not having an answer is not a win condition, but the decks couldn't protect itself without countermagic of it's own. Manabond with ensnaring bridge held back everything as desired, and Zuran Orb with Explorations set my turns up. I didn't seem to play much on their turn anyway without countermagic.

As a player and fan of Omni-Show and having changed it to handle O-rings and such, I know that hand disruption hurts that deck bad and with cunning wishes main board, O-Rings don't phase it. I am currently working on another Tax/Rack and am considering W/B or a more esper build myself. The moxen were good but on those cases when EE would activate for 0, I was dead for keeping my Land Count down. That is why I liked the Borderpost reference on a previous page. The Moxen are, of course, desired as preference and am considering using Opals as well. Post M14 they can be petals anyway which worked for me before.

Anyway, just sharing some thoughts as I work on a list. I will try to post more after a build and more testing.

Intresting thoughts using Wheel of Sun and Moon and Rest in Peace. It kinda feels like the good ol' days where you wanted to go as fast as possible through the deck and keep about 5/6 cards left that could answer anything and recycle them until the opponent got bored. If it's succesful is another point. I was pondering about the idea of Chains of Mephistopheles (it's my favorite card... Seeing people reading it for 5 minutes and still can't tell what it does) and Raven Crime[cards] to deplete the hand of my opponenent. Problem is that [cards]Raven's Crime is put on bottom of my library too when I retrace. The problem was, between playing lands and discarding lands I couldn't retrace for long enough. It was fun though. It had a very low curve, played a little more creatures. It kinda looked like the old weenie list. I played Dark Confidant, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Stoneforge Mystic. It was just for fun though, not for this thread.

As for silver bullets, I rather go for consistency. My silver bullets on the moment:

2 Humility
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle

This with 4 Enlightened Tutor 4 Scroll Rack and 3 Sensei's Divining Top makes sure I find the card when I need it.

Silver bullets I tested and got removed because they didn't do enough, or where worse then some of the above.

Isochron Scepter: It takes alot of slots(extra Swords to Plowshare, Silence and Orim's Chant) to make it work. It's slow, expensive and is a 2 for 1 with Abrupt decay.

Zuran Orb/Ivory Tower: I rather find Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace and win the game then stall my opponent. Both only good with Land Tax online.

Moat: worse then Humility. You can run a 1/1 split between the MD, but I want to see Humility in 99% of the cases. Stopping Deathrite Shaman, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Qasali Pridemage, Elves is more important.

Solitary Confinement: Doesn't win the game and only works with Land Tax online, otherwise very bad Time Walk.

Goblin Charbelcher: It doesn't guarentee the win in the game. Also only good with Land Tax online.

Suppression Field: It only slows opponent's down and we can't take advantage of the time it gives us.

Blood Moon: At is best when landed turn 1 or 2, that is not going to happen to often. It doesn't impact the battlefield that much. Even the most greedy manabases can play around it, if they no it's coming, which they normally see.

Chains of Mephistopheles: Very solid against Brainstorm, solid against Jace, the Mind Sculptor (although Pithing Needle works better for 1 mana.) Still an serious consideration but to many times not a complete answer: Against Griselbrand they still got a 7/7 lifelinker. Pithing Needle works just as good and can target Sneak Attack too. Against Omnishow they still get to filter through the deck, if they have 2 cards in hand, they still win. Just like Blood Moon you need it early against blue decks to mess with their cantrips.

Anyway, I'm almost down on my 75, I will post the list when I'm done. I think the deck will be tier 3 though... On the other hand, I have to play my first match without any play-mistakes.

.Bb>

PirateKing

06-13-2013, 07:40 AM

(nameless one)

06-13-2013, 12:44 PM

Benie Bederios

06-15-2013, 10:59 AM

Good to see this still being worked on. I don't see why Quinn, although now essentially abandoned, gets to be Established while this flavor of monowhite is relegated to New and Dev.

Bb, what makes you think this deck is tier 3? What do you anticipate the major limiting factors to be? Look forward to your list.

The limiting factor would be the deck itself. As IBA said the deck fundamently doesn't work. Land Tax was great when other draw-engines where Library of Alexandria, Braingeyser and Jayemdae Tome. The draw engines of today are a little more efficient and doesn't need this so much effort to work. Even Standstill isn't played that much now. Maybe is tier 3 a little to low, but the deck won't be as good as some as the the tier 2-decks out there now (MUD, Goblins, Nic Fit for example.)

The reason why Quinn is under Established is because infamousbearassassin (Jack Elgin) used the deck to win back-to-back-to-back tournaments with it and had enough publicity to warrant other decks at its time to sideboard against it.

This deck has only one recorded top 8 (at one of the online MTG Salvation tournaments). Outside of the players from early 2000s and the people that follow this thread and it's Salvation mirror thread, no one really knows how the deck works.

It's good that Bb is keeping the dream alive. I am looking forward to his list because I have to admit, I haven't been contributing; I haven't been playing Legacy because of my hectic schedule.

My list is no rocketscience. I like to play a consistent as possible deck as possible, capable of having a gameplan with or without Tax/Rack online. I hope to finish my deck (as in real cards) soon too, so I can play some real-life tourney's.

.Bb>

Cipher

06-19-2013, 12:42 PM

Benie Bederios

06-21-2013, 03:57 AM

I think going with a stax setup could make this deck work. As it is, these lists look like UW Miracle lists without the blue. No idea how you could beat a combo deck. Adding a Stax package might leverage Land Tax more effectively and give you more time to set up the slow combo win.

Putting Land Tax into Stax is probably not good. Stax needs to much non-plain sources (City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb/Wasteland/Flagstones of Trokair) and needs to play Chalice of the Void with 1 counter disabling Land Tax. It might be solid to borrow some idea's from Stax. Trinisphere and Armageddon seems like 2 cards that in theory could break Land Tax. But I couldn't make it work and I believe (nameless one) tried and dimissed it too.

Define combo? Against Storm we lose, that's correct. We probably lose against OmniShow or Sneak Show and Tinfins, but we got some answers. Dredge should be winnable. Stax got about the same matchup against Dredge, a little better against Tin Fins and Storm, but a little worse against OmniShow and Sneak Show.

But do share your list if you have it. We need people with new ideas.

Here is my take on the deck. I tried alot of different lists (BDI Parfait, UW Parfait, Stax Parfait, Hatebear Parfait) and used alot of idea's of the thread (in fact I there isn't any new tech in the list.) Tested it a little bit, but not enough to give a good board strategy and matchup percentages. I did most testing online (MWS). If someone wants to help testing let me know (European time)

--------------------

I'm finally on a build where I can justify every card except the fourth Enlightened Tutor in the deck.

Here is my list

// Maindeck

15 Plains
4 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond

4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Path to Exile
4 Terminus

2 Humility
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in peace

2 Helm of Obedience
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard

4 Leyline of sanctity
3 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
1 Rule of Law
1 Nevermore
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Karmic Justice
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Moat

Card for card analysis

Manabase
I choose to play 19 lands and 4 moxen. 19 lands is the bare-minimum to operate without Land Tax. If you don't draw Land Tax early or it gets countered I want to be able to hit landdrops so I an control the board or race for the combo. Mox Diamond and City of Traitors are my utility. They both help activating Land Tax and accelerate in the bombs.

Carddraw and tutor
Land Tax and Scroll Rack are auto-includes as four-offs. You want to see them every game. Sensei's Divining Top is better then Scroll Rack in a vaccuum, but a bit worse with Land Tax. It's still a powerfull engine that can setup instant speed Terminus and fixes your draw if Land Tax isn't enabled. Now 4 Enlightened Tutors, but I played 3 for two reasons. First of my MD toolbox isn't a bunch of specific 1-off's, so even with 3 tutors I play 5/6 copies of eacht silver bullet. Second because Enlightened Tutor is bad in multiples. But I don't know what to play in it's place

Removal
Path to Exile and Terminus are just the best removal spells. Terminus is easy to setup with Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top. Path to Exile can just be as easily be Swords to Plowshare. I found Path to Exile a little better, because sometimes it's removal without a drawback. It gives the opponent though choices, if they want to activate your Land Tax. Also if you are forced to go for winning with Elspeth, Knight-Errant the lifegain of Swords to Plowshare can matter.

Enchantments
Only the targets that are good on there own and/or can have a high impact on the game. Other possible targets are overkill or need to much cards to work (more explanation later.) Humility just shuts down so many decks. Oblivion Ring and Pithing Needle are almost never dead draws. Pithing Needle stops Deathrite shaman (because it's not a mana-ability) and AEther Vial. Two cards that can hamper Land Tax. Rest in Peace is half combo and very solid in this meta too.

Win-condtitions
Helm of Obedience is the best win-condition for this deck. If it hits it's game over (unlike Goblin Charbelcher) It's quite easy to setup and randomly gets creatures from your opponent. Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a 1-card kill that doesn't need alot of support. It's quite slow, but can control the board too. Very solid with Humility next to it.

Sideboard
Where the maindeck is build on consitenty, the sideboard is more like finding the right tool for the moment. Leyline of Sanctity is a 4-off so you can start the game with it. Normally use agasint combo and heavy discard. Aura of Silence is usesfull in a plentora of matchups, killing Counterbalance, slowing down mana-artifacts and being an alternative (although weak) answer to Omniscience.
Ethersworn Canonist/Trinisphere/Rule of Law/Nevermore are the normal answers combo. 4 different cards because the ability of the cards doesn't stack and it's harder to remove 2/3 different pieces of hate than multiple of 1 (Echoing Truth.) Nevermore and Ethersworn Canonist does have some other utility in other matchups too. Greater Auramancy and Karmic Justice to fight of the removal opponents will side in against you. Luminarch Ascension against control, if you can land it early the other deck got a decent clock. Moat is additional hate against creature decks.

In this deck, I'm not sure on 1 spot, now the fourth Enlightened Tutor. This could just be a third Pithing Needle, a Plains or a Blood Moon.

Cards that didn't make the cut.

Wasteland / Ghost Quarters because there impact isn't big enough and you can't really run less then 15 white sources to guarentee turn 1 white mana. Crystal Veins is just worse then City of Traitors, tapping twice for 2-mana is just solid. Lotus Vale is very powerfull, but the biggest problem is that it doesn't fill a landslot. It has to compete with the Mox Diamond slot, but Mox Diamond gets the slots because it can't 3 for 1 you. Serra's Sanctum can be used, but without the ability to tutor for lands, you can't guarantee to draw it when you need it. It also activates your opponents Wasteland. You can use the card lategame when you got some enchantments, but by then, you probably have enough mana anyway. There isn't a card you can sink the mana in. Karakas might be usefull to play, but a little hard to find. Dark Depths and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale won't tap for mana, which isn't really good with Land Tax. Fetchlands are surely playable, but out of my list at the moment. Most of the time they matter to little.
Tithe was cut, because lack of space. Might be possible if you start splashing other colours. Swords to Plowshare can be added if you need more removal, but between 4 Path to Exile, 4 Terminus, 3 Oblivion Ring, 2 Humility and 3 Rest in Peace stopping creatures isn't that hard.

Why not the more utility enchantments?

Here the reason's for the more commenly played Enchantments:

Isochron Scepter: It takes alot of slots(extra Swords to Plowshare, Silence and Orim's Chant) to make it work. It's slow, expensive and is a 2 for 1 with Abrupt decay.

Zuran Orb/Ivory Tower: I rather find Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace and win the game then stall my opponent. Both only good with Land Tax online.

Moat: worse then Humility. You can run a 1/1 split between the MD, but I want to see Humility in 99% of the cases. Stopping Deathrite Shaman, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Qasali Pridemage, Elves is more important.

Solitary Confinement: Doesn't win the game and only works with Land Tax online, otherwise very bad Time Walk.

Goblin Charbelcher: It doesn't guarentee the win in the game. Also only good with Land Tax online.

Suppression Field: It only slows opponent's down and we can't take advantage of the time it gives us.

Blood Moon: At is best when landed turn 1 or 2, that is not going to happen to often. It doesn't impact the battlefield that much. Even the most greedy manabases can play around it, if they no it's coming, which they normally see.

Chains of Mephistopheles: Very solid against Brainstorm, solid against Jace, the Mind Sculptor (although Pithing Needle works better for 1 mana.) Still an serious consideration but to many times not a complete answer: Against Griselbrand they still got a 7/7 lifelinker. Pithing Needle works just as good and can target Sneak Attack too. Against Omnishow they still get to filter through the deck, if they have 2 cards in hand, they still win. Just like Blood Moon you need it early against blue decks to mess with their cantrips.

Splashing colours

For now I say no, because most colours doesn't give any better tools then white already has. Maindeck I can't think of a card I want to have in another colour. I tried a heavy red splash for Devastating Dreams/Winds of Change. It was fun when it worked, but I couldn't get it conistent. I tried a black version with Raven's Crime (on paper is Retrace is solid with Land Tax) and Chains of Mephistopheles, but couldn't clear my opponent hand fast enough and couldn't keep him/her locked before winning the game (Rest in Peace/Helm of Obedience doesn't work.) You also discards your lands instead of shuffling them back, so if the game goes to long you can't retrace anymore because you are out lands.

Some playtips:

- Don't try to force Land Tax to much, but do not overextend your lands without reason. The deck works on very few lands, if your can force your opponent to play on just as many lands, you are still in quite good position. Also normally 2 Land Tax triggers is enough to win.

- Know when to tutor, Scroll Rack, Sensei's Divining Top. With Land Tax out, you normally have use Sensei's Divining Top and Enlightened Tutor during your upkeep so you don't shuffle them away with Land Tax. Same is true if you want to play Terminus with Scroll Rack. It's quite obvious, but it better save then sorry.

- Helm of Obedience can be relevant without Rest in Peace. Against Reanimator or Sneak Show you can get lucky.

- Know the rules:
Land Tax checks land-counts twice. The first time at the beginning of your upkeep (so before you can do anyting in your turn.) And when the ability resolves. If you want to trick the opponent by killing a land of your own, you have to do it end of turn. Your opponent kan kill a land of during your upkeep. The Land Tax trigger goes on the stack, but you won't find any lands. If an opponent fetches during your upkeep and finds a land you can just search lands though.

You don't have to find three lands with Land Tax, Just make sure that you have 7 cards in hand at end of turn. You can also find 0 cards and just shuffle.

You can prevent decking with Scroll Rack to put more cards back in your library then you had before.

They don't have to find a land with Path to Exile, so it won't guarantee that it activates Land Tax.

You don't have to discard a land with Mox Diamond before it resolves. So if the opponent counters it, you only lost your Mox Diamond. You can't tap it for mana without discarding a land though. If I look at the cards and the rules it's crystal clear, but somehow I remember there was a time you had to discard as part of the cost.

Relevant things that Humility doesn't stop: Cascade, Magus of the Moon's ability, Painter's Servant's ability and the extra turn of a hardcast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn( or the destroy effect of Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre.)

Matchups

I haven't had enough experience to give win-percentages. So just play strategies and board suggestions:

Miracle Control

Control versus control. We are the more traditional control. Both decks got some bad cards in the matchup. We got a very solid draw-engine and it isn't hard for us to keep it online. The problem is getting it online. Counterbalance is solid against our low curve and it can keep our bombs of the table. Oblivion Ring and Pithing Needle should stop this as soon as possible. Resolving an Elspeth, Knight-Errant will make it very hard for the opponent to win. Punishing Fire is something to watch out for, but Rest in Peace can deal with that. The match is about finding the right answers. The one who gets their engine out first, will probably win.

Cards to watch out for: Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Karakas.

Boarding
- 4 Terminus
+1 Luminarch Ascension
+1 Karmic Justice
+2 Aura of Silence

Not much to bring in. Post board the match stays the same.

BUG Shardless

A weird matchup I haven't really played enough. They need quite some mana to work so you probably can get Land Tax online. If they go Shardless into nuts it's tough.

Cards to watch out for: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana of the Veil, Shardless Agent
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana of the Veil

Boarding

-1 Terminus
-1 Oblivion Ring

+1 Karmic Justice
+1 Greater Auramancy

Protecting our Enchantments is top priority game 2.

Elves Combo

Should be winnable on paper, but a very tricky matchup. Land Tax is useless early game. Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top very solid because they setup Terminus. Normally resolving one can create a window to go for Humility to stop the deck. They can still blow you out of the water though. Don't waste time when you think you have locked the game. Go for Helm of Obedience combo.

Cards to watch out for: Glimpse of Nature, Heritage Druid
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Wirewood Symbiote, Qasali Pridemage, Quirion Ranger

Boarding
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Moat

Post board it gets a little better, the gameplay stays the same. Slow them down, until your bombs can take over.

MonoU Omnitell

Easy matchup pre-board, you can't actually loose, uhm... Pre-board you probably just sit on the other side of the table and try to find out how they will kill you. Race as fast as possible for the Helm of Obedience. You might be able to foil the combo with Oblivion Ring, but more often then not, it's not enough.

Cards to watch out for: Show and Tell, Dream Halls
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Fetchlands

Boarding
-4 Terminus
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Humility
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
+3 Aura of Silence
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Rule of Law
+1 Greater Auramancy

Post board still troublesome. Try to hate them out of the game. Throw anything you got at them to slow them down. Hopefully they can't deal with everything.

ANT

Game 1 is an autoloss. You can't do anything to stop them from comboing. Just race for the combo, but you're not fast enough.

Cards to watch out for: Ad Nauseam, Past in Flame

Boarding

-4 Terminus
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Humility
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
+3 Aura of Silence
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Rule of Law
+1 Greater Auramancy

Same as Omnitell. Get enough speedbumbs out and go for the throat.

Canadian Thresh

Try to keep the threads off the board. Delver of Secrets is quite a fast clock. Rest in Peace stops most of there creatures (Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Snapcaster Mage.) 1 or 2 triggers of Land Tax is enough to get enough advantage over the opponent. Try to cast your bombs around Daze and Spell Pierce. Don't hold your mana to much back, just to be able to Land Tax, they can operate under few lands and have means to control their own land-count.

Cards to watch out for: Delver of Secrets, Spell Pierce, Force of Will
cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Fetchlands, Wasteland

Boarding

-2 Pithing Needle
+1 Greater Auramancy
+1 Karmic Justice

No real boarding needed. Pithing Needle doesn't have enough targets to include. They normally bring in some targeted hate, so Greater Auramancy and Karmic Justice to stop them.

Any tips, suggestions, questions?

.Bb>

(nameless one)

06-21-2013, 07:07 AM

baghdadbob

06-22-2013, 12:06 AM

Putting Land Tax into Stax is probably not good. Stax needs to much non-plain sources (City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb/Wasteland/Flagstones of Trokair) and needs to play Chalice of the Void with 1 counter disabling Land Tax. It might be solid to borrow some idea's from Stax. Trinisphere and Armageddon seems like 2 cards that in theory could break Land Tax. But I couldn't make it work and I believe (nameless one) tried and dimissed it too.

Define combo? Against Storm we lose, that's correct. We probably lose against OmniShow or Sneak Show and Tinfins, but we got some answers. Dredge should be winnable. Stax got about the same matchup against Dredge, a little better against Tin Fins and Storm, but a little worse against OmniShow and Sneak Show.

But do share your list if you have it. We need people with new ideas.

Here is my take on the deck. I tried alot of different lists (BDI Parfait, UW Parfait, Stax Parfait, Hatebear Parfait) and used alot of idea's of the thread (in fact I there isn't any new tech in the list.) Tested it a little bit, but not enough to give a good board strategy and matchup percentages. I did most testing online (MWS). If someone wants to help testing let me know (European time)

--------------------

I'm finally on a build where I can justify every card except the fourth Enlightened Tutor in the deck.

Here is my list

// Maindeck

15 Plains
4 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond

4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Path to Exile
4 Terminus

2 Humility
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in peace

2 Helm of Obedience
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard

4 Leyline of sanctity
3 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
1 Rule of Law
1 Nevermore
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Karmic Justice
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Moat

Card for card analysis

Manabase
I choose to play 19 lands and 4 moxen. 19 lands is the bare-minimum to operate without Land Tax. If you don't draw Land Tax early or it gets countered I want to be able to hit landdrops so I an control the board or race for the combo. Mox Diamond and City of Traitors are my utility. They both help activating Land Tax and accelerate in the bombs.

Carddraw and tutor
Land Tax and Scroll Rack are auto-includes as four-offs. You want to see them every game. Sensei's Divining Top is better then Scroll Rack in a vaccuum, but a bit worse with Land Tax. It's still a powerfull engine that can setup instant speed Terminus and fixes your draw if Land Tax isn't enabled. Now 4 Enlightened Tutors, but I played 3 for two reasons. First of my MD toolbox isn't a bunch of specific 1-off's, so even with 3 tutors I play 5/6 copies of eacht silver bullet. Second because Enlightened Tutor is bad in multiples. But I don't know what to play in it's place

Removal
Path to Exile and Terminus are just the best removal spells. Terminus is easy to setup with Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top. Path to Exile can just be as easily be Swords to Plowshare. I found Path to Exile a little better, because sometimes it's removal without a drawback. It gives the opponent though choices, if they want to activate your Land Tax. Also if you are forced to go for winning with Elspeth, Knight-Errant the lifegain of Swords to Plowshare can matter.

Enchantments
Only the targets that are good on there own and/or can have a high impact on the game. Other possible targets are overkill or need to much cards to work (more explanation later.) Humility just shuts down so many decks. Oblivion Ring and Pithing Needle are almost never dead draws. Pithing Needle stops Deathrite shaman (because it's not a mana-ability) and AEther Vial. Two cards that can hamper Land Tax. Rest in Peace is half combo and very solid in this meta too.

Win-condtitions
Helm of Obedience is the best win-condition for this deck. If it hits it's game over (unlike Goblin Charbelcher) It's quite easy to setup and randomly gets creatures from your opponent. Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a 1-card kill that doesn't need alot of support. It's quite slow, but can control the board too. Very solid with Humility next to it.

Sideboard
Where the maindeck is build on consitenty, the sideboard is more like finding the right tool for the moment. Leyline of Sanctity is a 4-off so you can start the game with it. Normally use agasint combo and heavy discard. Aura of Silence is usesfull in a plentora of matchups, killing Counterbalance, slowing down mana-artifacts and being an alternative (although weak) answer to Omniscience.
Ethersworn Canonist/Trinisphere/Rule of Law/Nevermore are the normal answers combo. 4 different cards because the ability of the cards doesn't stack and it's harder to remove 2/3 different pieces of hate than multiple of 1 (Echoing Truth.) Nevermore and Ethersworn Canonist does have some other utility in other matchups too. Greater Auramancy and Karmic Justice to fight of the removal opponents will side in against you. Luminarch Ascension against control, if you can land it early the other deck got a decent clock. Moat is additional hate against creature decks.

In this deck, I'm not sure on 1 spot, now the fourth Enlightened Tutor. This could just be a third Pithing Needle, a Plains or a Blood Moon.

Cards that didn't make the cut.

Wasteland / Ghost Quarters because there impact isn't big enough and you can't really run less then 15 white sources to guarentee turn 1 white mana. Crystal Veins is just worse then City of Traitors, tapping twice for 2-mana is just solid. Lotus Vale is very powerfull, but the biggest problem is that it doesn't fill a landslot. It has to compete with the Mox Diamond slot, but Mox Diamond gets the slots because it can't 3 for 1 you. Serra's Sanctum can be used, but without the ability to tutor for lands, you can't guarantee to draw it when you need it. It also activates your opponents Wasteland. You can use the card lategame when you got some enchantments, but by then, you probably have enough mana anyway. There isn't a card you can sink the mana in. Karakas might be usefull to play, but a little hard to find. Dark Depths and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale won't tap for mana, which isn't really good with Land Tax. Fetchlands are surely playable, but out of my list at the moment. Most of the time they matter to little.
Tithe was cut, because lack of space. Might be possible if you start splashing other colours. Swords to Plowshare can be added if you need more removal, but between 4 Path to Exile, 4 Terminus, 3 Oblivion Ring, 2 Humility and 3 Rest in Peace stopping creatures isn't that hard.

Why not the more utility enchantments?

Here the reason's for the more commenly played Enchantments:

Isochron Scepter: It takes alot of slots(extra Swords to Plowshare, Silence and Orim's Chant) to make it work. It's slow, expensive and is a 2 for 1 with Abrupt decay.

Zuran Orb/Ivory Tower: I rather find Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace and win the game then stall my opponent. Both only good with Land Tax online.

Moat: worse then Humility. You can run a 1/1 split between the MD, but I want to see Humility in 99% of the cases. Stopping Deathrite Shaman, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Qasali Pridemage, Elves is more important.

Solitary Confinement: Doesn't win the game and only works with Land Tax online, otherwise very bad Time Walk.

Goblin Charbelcher: It doesn't guarentee the win in the game. Also only good with Land Tax online.

Suppression Field: It only slows opponent's down and we can't take advantage of the time it gives us.

Blood Moon: At is best when landed turn 1 or 2, that is not going to happen to often. It doesn't impact the battlefield that much. Even the most greedy manabases can play around it, if they no it's coming, which they normally see.

Chains of Mephistopheles: Very solid against Brainstorm, solid against Jace, the Mind Sculptor (although Pithing Needle works better for 1 mana.) Still an serious consideration but to many times not a complete answer: Against Griselbrand they still got a 7/7 lifelinker. Pithing Needle works just as good and can target Sneak Attack too. Against Omnishow they still get to filter through the deck, if they have 2 cards in hand, they still win. Just like Blood Moon you need it early against blue decks to mess with their cantrips.

Splashing colours

For now I say no, because most colours doesn't give any better tools then white already has. Maindeck I can't think of a card I want to have in another colour. I tried a heavy red splash for Devastating Dreams/Winds of Change. It was fun when it worked, but I couldn't get it conistent. I tried a black version with Raven's Crime (on paper is Retrace is solid with Land Tax) and Chains of Mephistopheles, but couldn't clear my opponent hand fast enough and couldn't keep him/her locked before winning the game (Rest in Peace/Helm of Obedience doesn't work.) You also discards your lands instead of shuffling them back, so if the game goes to long you can't retrace anymore because you are out lands.

Some playtips:

- Don't try to force Land Tax to much, but do not overextend your lands without reason. The deck works on very few lands, if your can force your opponent to play on just as many lands, you are still in quite good position. Also normally 2 Land Tax triggers is enough to win.

- Know when to tutor, Scroll Rack, Sensei's Divining Top. With Land Tax out, you normally have use Sensei's Divining Top and Enlightened Tutor during your upkeep so you don't shuffle them away with Land Tax. Same is true if you want to play Terminus with Scroll Rack. It's quite obvious, but it better save then sorry.

- Helm of Obedience can be relevant without Rest in Peace. Against Reanimator or Sneak Show you can get lucky.

- Know the rules:
Land Tax checks land-counts twice. The first time at the beginning of your upkeep (so before you can do anyting in your turn.) And when the ability resolves. If you want to trick the opponent by killing a land of your own, you have to do it end of turn. Your opponent kan kill a land of during your upkeep. The Land Tax trigger goes on the stack, but you won't find any lands. If an opponent fetches during your upkeep and finds a land you can just search lands though.

You don't have to find three lands with Land Tax, Just make sure that you have 7 cards in hand at end of turn. You can also find 0 cards and just shuffle.

You can prevent decking with Scroll Rack to put more cards back in your library then you had before.

They don't have to find a land with Path to Exile, so it won't guarantee that it activates Land Tax.

You don't have to discard a land with Mox Diamond before it resolves. So if the opponent counters it, you only lost your Mox Diamond. You can't tap it for mana without discarding a land though. If I look at the cards and the rules it's crystal clear, but somehow I remember there was a time you had to discard as part of the cost.

Relevant things that Humility doesn't stop: Cascade, Magus of the Moon's ability, Painter's Servant's ability and the extra turn of a hardcast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn( or the destroy effect of Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre.)

Matchups

I haven't had enough experience to give win-percentages. So just play strategies and board suggestions:

Miracle Control

Control versus control. We are the more traditional control. Both decks got some bad cards in the matchup. We got a very solid draw-engine and it isn't hard for us to keep it online. The problem is getting it online. Counterbalance is solid against our low curve and it can keep our bombs of the table. Oblivion Ring and Pithing Needle should stop this as soon as possible. Resolving an Elspeth, Knight-Errant will make it very hard for the opponent to win. Punishing Fire is something to watch out for, but Rest in Peace can deal with that. The match is about finding the right answers. The one who gets their engine out first, will probably win.

Cards to watch out for: Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Karakas.

Boarding
- 4 Terminus
+1 Luminarch Ascension
+1 Karmic Justice
+2 Aura of Silence

Not much to bring in. Post board the match stays the same.

BUG Shardless

A weird matchup I haven't really played enough. They need quite some mana to work so you probably can get Land Tax online. If they go Shardless into nuts it's tough.

Cards to watch out for: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana of the Veil, Shardless Agent
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana of the Veil

Boarding

-1 Terminus
-1 Oblivion Ring

+1 Karmic Justice
+1 Greater Auramancy

Protecting our Enchantments is top priority game 2.

Elves Combo

Should be winnable on paper, but a very tricky matchup. Land Tax is useless early game. Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top very solid because they setup Terminus. Normally resolving one can create a window to go for Humility to stop the deck. They can still blow you out of the water though. Don't waste time when you think you have locked the game. Go for Helm of Obedience combo.

Cards to watch out for: Glimpse of Nature, Heritage Druid
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Wirewood Symbiote, Qasali Pridemage, Quirion Ranger

Boarding
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Moat

Post board it gets a little better, the gameplay stays the same. Slow them down, until your bombs can take over.

MonoU Omnitell

Easy matchup pre-board, you can't actually loose, uhm... Pre-board you probably just sit on the other side of the table and try to find out how they will kill you. Race as fast as possible for the Helm of Obedience. You might be able to foil the combo with Oblivion Ring, but more often then not, it's not enough.

Cards to watch out for: Show and Tell, Dream Halls
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Fetchlands

Boarding
-4 Terminus
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Humility
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
+3 Aura of Silence
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Rule of Law
+1 Greater Auramancy

Post board still troublesome. Try to hate them out of the game. Throw anything you got at them to slow them down. Hopefully they can't deal with everything.

ANT

Game 1 is an autoloss. You can't do anything to stop them from comboing. Just race for the combo, but you're not fast enough.

Cards to watch out for: Ad Nauseam, Past in Flame

Boarding

-4 Terminus
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Humility
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
+3 Aura of Silence
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Rule of Law
+1 Greater Auramancy

Same as Omnitell. Get enough speedbumbs out and go for the throat.

Canadian Thresh

Try to keep the threads off the board. Delver of Secrets is quite a fast clock. Rest in Peace stops most of there creatures (Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Snapcaster Mage.) 1 or 2 triggers of Land Tax is enough to get enough advantage over the opponent. Try to cast your bombs around Daze and Spell Pierce. Don't hold your mana to much back, just to be able to Land Tax, they can operate under few lands and have means to control their own land-count.

Cards to watch out for: Delver of Secrets, Spell Pierce, Force of Will
cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Fetchlands, Wasteland

Boarding

-2 Pithing Needle
+1 Greater Auramancy
+1 Karmic Justice

No real boarding needed. Pithing Needle doesn't have enough targets to include. They normally bring in some targeted hate, so Greater Auramancy and Karmic Justice to stop them.

Any tips, suggestions, questions?

.Bb>

Pelikanudo

06-23-2013, 06:19 PM

I want to comment on Path to Exile.

The problem I have with PtE is it gives your opponent that extra land. Sure it triggers Land Tax but a lot of times, it helps the opponent more. Not to mention you're not going to have Land Tax half of the time.

Against swarm-aggro, it accelerates them to lay more threats. Against midrange, it's important for them to hit land drops to get back in the game. Against control, you just helped them accelerate to Jace.

Maybe I'm doing it all wrong but that's what I find.

My go to list and your list seems similar (only difference in numbers + Lotus Vale and the choice exiler)

I believe that Trinisphere needs more than one slot in the side. It's so good against decks that this deck is generally bad against: Canadian Thresh, Storm Combi, OmniDerp and other tempo strategy.

I'll think about what you said about Lotus Vale. Lotus Vale is either really good or really bad. It helps you win games or it will help you lose. I personally do not mind it. To me, its a Black Lotus that costs 3 land drops that helps trigger Land Tax. I realistically only need it to cast Humility, Elspeth and Helm. While the same can be said with City of Traitors, I think I'd still run at leasr two of them. Keep in mind that you can still pitch them to Mox Diamond.

Another thing I want to bring up: Cataclysm and Armageddon

Although my testing is limited, I believe this deck can abuse the hell out of Cataclysm. Really the only bad thing I found while testing is its interaction with O-Ring. You O-Ring something and now it's back.

Armageddon can be good in slowing your opponent. The problem with it however is that it's only great when you already have Land Tax.

Now that someone mentioned Stax, has anyone tried Smokestack before? Get rid of your lands (and get them back via Land Tax) while your opponent scrambles?

I also do not have much time but the last days I was testing Parfait, and I became to the conclusión in using full of Argivian Find to maximize the chances of recouping your Bomb Or Engine.

I use 3 cataclism 4 Thalia in side as strategy and I'm also considering to bring both Cataclism and maybe SmokeStax,

The problema I have mainly with such archetypes is that they Loose vs control and this fact sucks, and this is exactly what I'm going to accomplish. Tryed 6 REB effects, b.wish etc. etc. and nothing...

Another point I'0mk considering is Orims, I really think we dont need it, the main goals I want to accomplish are:
getting the engine working or get bullets and maintain them, so waht I find is that Redundancy OR recoupiing effects can be the key, even I'm thinking in duress or t.seize effects, but orims does nothnkg vs a.decay, but A.Find does a lot in here...

Just some thooutghs about this archetype I love so much but I loose with with soo many pairings...
I even though on Spehere of resistence. Maybe Stax Mode can work...

(nameless one)

06-24-2013, 12:06 AM

Pelikanudo

06-24-2013, 09:22 AM

Back in 2010, when Land Tax was getting the unban lobby, Stephen Menendian posted this list (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19052-So-Many-Insane-Plays-Six-Cards-To-Unban-In-Legacy.html):

11 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Wasteland

1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack
1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
1 Humility
4 Land Tax
1 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law
1 Sacred Mesa
4 Abeyance
3 Argivian Find
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares

A lot of cards have been printed since that time but I think this is the principle you're going for.

Yes I think so,

I've been thinking on Trini as well, Sphere of resistance seems another option as its effect is accumulative (maybe lodestone golem -but it is creature),
But the problem I see is that you'll need to speed up your lands in the form of City of Traitors to make Trini really effective as it is effective if you play it soon and the mana base of that deck really sucks if you intend to play Trini soon.

At least we agree that A.Find should be played 3 as mínimum - I play 4.
And regarding Orims effect I maybe will reduce the number to 3.
I do not play swords and still I think they re unnecesary at least in main. - I never tested in any build I made. we based the deck on silver bullets: A well played humility or Moat should avoid playing Swords.

Also 16 lands will not work with 4 moxen and absolutly will not work if you intend to play Trini. What do you think regarding this?

What do you think related to 4 Wastelands? I do not see this neccesary -> Crucible I think it is played only because of wasteland ritgh? becuase I do not see crucible also neccessary. What do you think related to this?

Also and for the rest of folks: Swords > Path to exile in Tax - Rack Decks. No discussion in here.

(nameless one)

06-24-2013, 10:05 AM

I think he justifies both running 16 lands and Wasteland with Crucible although I do agree that 16 lands is problematic. There will be games that you're not gonna get Land Tax on the field.

I still think that Wasteland will be helpful, especially taking out lands that produce two or more mana.

As for StP, I think you still wanna have it because there will be early game threats that you wanna get rid of (early Goblin Lackey, Bob, SFMystic, Delver, Goyf to name a few)

Benie Bederios

06-24-2013, 12:08 PM

Hi,

Path to Exile vs Swords To Plowshare

Looking at the Deck to Beat forum

Path to Exile is better:
Elves!
Reanimator
Canadian Thresh
Jund
Team America

Swords to Plowshare is better
Blade Control
Miracle Control
BUG Shardless Control

Depending on situation
GW Maverick

Both bad
ANT
Omnitell

Just dismissing one because you have a bad experience with it, doesn't make it a bad card. I say it's very meta depending. If you want to go for the save side go for Swords to Plowshare, but Path to Exile can win you some games.

Cataclysm: It can't control the board well enough or you need to run suboptimal cards. If your opponent leaves a board with AEther Vial, Lord of Atlantis, Island or Volcanic Island, Tarmagoyf, or Island, Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance you are still loosing the game. It's a win-more in most cases.

Armageddon is another beast. You need other cards to help it, but can lock out the game a little better. Resolving it with a Ghostly Prison out or a Magus of Tabernacle and a Trinisphere is good. Getting Land Tax going before you Armageddon before you blow out the board and then take advantage of the time you get is good too.

Building a deck around is is alot harder. A Stax shell seems the best, but that deck has quite a high curve, where Land Tax doesn't fit in easily. Chalice of the Void is also unplayable.

The list of Stephen Menendian is not good. Sixteen lands and alot of cards with a cc of 4 in this meta isn't gonna work.

Maybe a mana-base with 4 City of Traitors, 2 Ancient Tom, 4 Wasteland 10 Plains is a good start. But then you go quite low in white sources.

.Bb>

Pelikanudo

06-24-2013, 01:55 PM

@Bennie:
@Nameless One
I can warranty that with the list you posted you will not be able to win Miracle OR BUG Control, this is a fact. and this fact is waht I intend to handle,
I've tested several versions of Parfait (I tested one with 6 REB in main.... )

I also do not want to loose vs control in general or Reanimator or S&T, this would be ideal.....

The cataclism card I think handles lot of problems the deck has:

It destroyes Lands, creatures and Planeswalkers!

The effect Cataclism can produce is much stronger than Armagedón, the difference is just 1 land, but I'm assuming I will test some kind of Mana Denial (Trini OR Sphere of Resistence) So maybe I eveluate to include Sowrds for the first Time! to get rid of that lonely creature... butr not sure....

I really think that the Trini OR Sphere Of Resistance + Cataclism + Ancient Tomb lands will improve our Control Match up! and then go for Stax!

I need to post my latest build of Parfait I'll do soon.... but please do not use it is just crap I lost with it vs Reanimator, Miracles all the times, and BUG all the times....

(nameless one)

06-24-2013, 02:45 PM

I agree with Pelikanudo on the control matchup.

The three things I don't want to see across the table are AEther Vial, Sensei's Divining Top and Super Jace. This is why I pack three Pithing Needle on the main.

Cataclysm is the next best thing to Balance in this format and this deck needs Balance. Sure it can run Terminus but that card only gets rid of problem creatures.

The only problem I have with Cataclysm are its interaction with Oblivion Ring and what to remove in its place.

Please share you're list Pelikanudo.

Benie Bederios

06-25-2013, 03:41 AM

Cataclysm, unlike Balance needs a deck around it.

In Angelstompy Cataclysm was good because you could leave something on the board like a Serra Avenger with an Sword of Fire and Ice on it and a land, making sure you can thrump the only creature on the other side.

I would like to see a list using Cataclysm, because it should be a whole other list then I'm using. You need spellbased control instead of permanent based control to minimize the effect of Cataclysm. Or we must follow up with Replenish.

The advantage of Armageddon is that it only kills permanents we can recoup very fast with Land Tax.

I'm still not sold on Cataclysm, but if you can provide a deck idea I would love to test that.

It's a pity that Pox and Smallpox costs so much black. They seem very efficient with Land Tax.

.Bb>

Telim Tor

07-03-2013, 05:02 PM

Back in 2010, when Land Tax was getting the unban lobby, Stephen Menendian posted this list (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19052-So-Many-Insane-Plays-Six-Cards-To-Unban-In-Legacy.html):

11 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Wasteland

1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack
1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
1 Humility
4 Land Tax
1 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law
1 Sacred Mesa
4 Abeyance
3 Argivian Find
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares

A lot of cards have been printed since that time but I think this is the principle you're going for.

Hi! I have been reading this tread a lot of months, im from Chile (sorry for my english). I have a parfait list a little different, with batterskull for win condition, knowing RIP + helm is better. I will post my list in some other day. Some things, i know it seems not good in paper, but i have one Exalted Angel :eek: and always have been helpfull, really. Winning time or has a second win condition. Second, I had some problems with terminus, because having only scroll rack to use well terminus (without having Sensei’s Divining Top) some times is not enough...i had wished for having a wrath of god or one of the 2 humillity in my hand that moment. And 3, Stephen Menendian has another list more updated, from 2012, that his my base to reach my list. His list is this:

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2873

Cheers

Benie Bederios

07-08-2013, 01:35 PM

Hi! I have been reading this tread a lot of months, im from Chile (sorry for my english). I have a parfait list a little different, with batterskull for win condition, knowing RIP + helm is better. I will post my list in some other day. Some things, i know it seems not good in paper, but i have one Exalted Angel :eek: and always have been helpfull, really. Winning time or has a second win condition. Second, I had some problems with terminus, because having only scroll rack to use well terminus (without having Sensei’s Divining Top) some times is not enough...i had wished for having a wrath of god or one of the 2 humillity in my hand that moment. And 3, Stephen Menendian has another list more updated, from 2012, that his my base to reach my list. His list is this:

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2873

Cheers

Batterskull isn't worse win condition per se. I was a little frustrated with the kills in my build, especially Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I'm now testing another build with Batterskull and Goblin Charbelcher as win condtions. I have removed some control elements to be able to kill faster and more consistent. A problem I had was that control decks just could counter my win-conditions and wouldn't be bothered by anything else. Without the RIP kill I can play Argivian Find to get a bigger thread densitity. With Goblin Charbelcher I also started testing Blood Moon again. I'm also testing Lotus Petal with moderate succes. Although it looks very bad in a control deck, it helped getting Land Tax online and my kill conditions a little earlier. I just tried of soft-locking the opponent with some powerfull enchanments and go for the win as fast as possible.

My current build probably isn't as powerfull as the one posted earlier, but it's fun to play.

.Bb>

Finn

07-09-2013, 04:04 PM

nedleeds

07-09-2013, 05:05 PM

Maybe a mana-base with 4 City of Traitors, 2 Ancient Tom, 4 Wasteland 10 Plains is a good start. But then you go quite low in white sources.

.Bb>

Why are you playing Land Tax with wasteland? Make a white prison deck with Chalice with that mana base.

(nameless one)

07-09-2013, 06:06 PM

This got posted at Everyday Eterna (http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=4081)l

List by Sean O'Brien (aka the Nether Void guy):
[Business] [35]
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Humility
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminus
2 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Trading Post
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Armageddon
3 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
4 Burning Wish

[Mana Sources] [25]
4 Mox Diamond
1 Karakas
4 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
3 Plateau
9 Plains
1 Mountain

[Sideboard] [15]
1 Pithing Needle
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Boiling Seas
1 Shattering Spree
1 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Tremor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ruination
1 Red Sun’s Zenith
1 Tariff
1 Cataclysm

It's rough but it emphasizes Burning Wish, something that I have discussed at MTGSalvation mirror thread before. Hopefully we hear more from him about this.

Megadeus

07-09-2013, 06:34 PM

List by Sean O'Brien (aka the Nether Void guy):
.

This post made me lol because of the post right above this one...

nedleeds

07-09-2013, 07:35 PM

Well anyone suggesting Scroll Rack and playing white but not suggesting Miracles is missing something.

Benie Bederios

07-10-2013, 12:54 PM

Benie, I fooled with this enough to echo the problems you faced concerning opposing counterspells. It is a big problem. I found that I could safely use all five colors though, and I just used Raven's Crime to rip their hands apart. I, too had to stop using the RIP kill though. It is a tough call, but at the least, you can swap out RIP for Crime when facing blue.

Wow, and I'm uncertain about my 2-colour manabase. I would like to see that list.

I have tried Raven's Crime in a build, but it was never what I wanted. In my testing it was to slow and to dependent to much on Land Tax. I had the choice in controlling the board or the handsize and more often then not I ended up doing them both half. I'm no trying to fight blue with more threads and Red Elemental Blast in the side. With Rest in Peace out of the MD I could try Raven's Crime again.

Why are you playing Land Tax with wasteland? Make a white prison deck with Chalice with that mana base.

I was talking about a Stax build with Land Tax. With Stax Crucible of Worlds seems an auto-include. Adding Wasteland wouldn't be a bad idea.

Note that I don't play a Stax build, nor am I building one, but this is probably where I start.

This got posted at Everyday Eterna (http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=4081)l

List by Sean O'Brien (aka the Nether Void guy):
[Business] [35]
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Humility
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminus
2 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Trading Post
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Armageddon
3 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
4 Burning Wish

[Mana Sources] [25]
4 Mox Diamond
1 Karakas
4 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
3 Plateau
9 Plains
1 Mountain

[Sideboard] [15]
1 Pithing Needle
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Boiling Seas
1 Shattering Spree
1 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Tremor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ruination
1 Red Sun’s Zenith
1 Tariff
1 Cataclysm

It's rough but it emphasizes Burning Wish, something that I have discussed at MTGSalvation mirror thread before. Hopefully we hear more from him about this.

This seems like a build that's awesome on paper but awful in real. But it's a list that isn't tested properly, so it might work. If I got time I proxy it up and test it.

@ Pelikanudo
I thought you where building a Burning Wish version. How did it end up, what do you think of the list?

.Bb>

Finn

07-10-2013, 02:59 PM

Benie Bederios

07-15-2013, 05:37 AM

@Benie...from memory, and not a clear one at that:

9 Plains
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Buried Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Lotus Vale
3 City of Traitors

4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Scroll Rack
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinishpere
2 Argivian Find
3 Terminus
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Burning Wish

side
1 Terminus
1 Planar Birth
1 Raven's Crime
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Gamble
1 Vindicate
1 Conflagrate
1 Regrowth
1 Life from the Loam
4 Orim's Chant
2 Trinisphere

I spent far too long trying to remember this. I doubt it is exact. But the idea with Raven's Crime should seem evident. They have to counter the Wish, which players are typically unwilling to do.

List full idea's. I like it. It looks very light on win-conditions though and quite dependant on Burning Wish in quite some matchups. As former Landstill player I countered Burning Wish almost every time, because of Dredge cards and retrace. I will try to incorperate some things into a list of my own. You don't have a solid win-condition once someone kills your Rest in Peace (it exiles itself.)

I did test the Sean O'brien list and had mixed feelings about it. The split between Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares seems always to end in my disadvantage; I got the Swords to Plowshares when the opponent had a planeswalker and Lightning Bolt when I was facing a Tarmogoyf.

Bonfire of the Damned and Trading Post where just to bad, those will be the first cards to cut. The winconditions where to slow for my taste. I would like to have a Batterskull in there somewhere. The Armageddons where quite solid though. A must counter against control decks, but sometimes I had problems controlling the board beforehand.

This is the list I'm testing now:

3 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
12 Plains
2 Plateau

3 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Argivian Find
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Land Tax
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Scroll Rack
1 Blood Moon
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Humility
2 Batterskull
4 Terminus

Sideboard
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rest in Peace
1 Trinisphere
1 Karmic Justice
1 Rule of Law
1 Aura of Silence
1 Nevermore
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Alot of things I abandoned earlier. Not at al sure of the list, but it ends up doing fairly well against blue decks now. Lotus Petal does a good job fighting Daze and allows me to hit bombs earlier, it has a slight edge over Chrome Mox now. Argivian Find gives me 6 win-condition's main, which makes it a little easier to land them. Batterskull seems better then Elspeth, Knight-Errant, putting a faster clock on an opponent and lifelink helps alot. Also the fact that I can tutor for it huge. Goblin Charbelcher is still a bit shaky, but gets there eventually.

Tormod's Crypt will probably become a Rest in Peace in the main, and the Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard Grafdigger's Cage.

.Bb>

(nameless one)

07-15-2013, 06:19 AM

I also want to add that Goblin Charbelcher resets your Scroll Rack which is an okay interaction.

Pelikanudo

07-15-2013, 06:40 AM

Wow, and I'm uncertain about my 2-colour manabase. I would like to see that list.

I have tried Raven's Crime in a build, but it was never what I wanted. In my testing it was to slow and to dependent to much on Land Tax. I had the choice in controlling the board or the handsize and more often then not I ended up doing them both half. I'm no trying to fight blue with more threads and Red Elemental Blast in the side. With Rest in Peace out of the MD I could try Raven's Crime again.

I was talking about a Stax build with Land Tax. With Stax Crucible of Worlds seems an auto-include. Adding Wasteland wouldn't be a bad idea.

Note that I don't play a Stax build, nor am I building one, but this is probably where I start.

This seems like a build that's awesome on paper but awful in real. But it's a list that isn't tested properly, so it might work. If I got time I proxy it up and test it.

@ Pelikanudo
I thought you where building a Burning Wish version. How did it end up, what do you think of the list?

.Bb>

That B. Wish List seems awfull to me, but the concept is moreless the same as mine when trying to build a B.Wish list, anyway that b.wish has the same problem as we face when we try to win Control Blue decks, I can warranty that if you build that list with 6 REB effects you will loose to those Blue Control decks anyway so I left to playing that kind of approaches.

Now I'm testing the Stax approach with:
- Cataclism
- Trinisphere

And it is beeing interesting the results vs control decks, I agree with the amount of permanents and the direction of the deck if we play Cataclism base, but it Works!

A Trinisphere followed by a Cataclism is almost gg-> I've won to Elves Decks because of this even!

this link will give you an idea of the deck (No chalice, less lands, full of S.Rack and full of trini):
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9424&iddeck=68831

Question:

Do you know boys any kind of creature that:
- Is indestructible or like - protection or can be recouped anyway
- Is White or artifact
- can do damage to creatures or destroy them

I mean I'm looking for a thing that kills creatures once cataclism is casted.
I've been thinking in Man Lands as you can convert the man land in creature whn casting Cataclism and next mar the land as creature and other as land.
Or any kind of legandary creature - bounced by Karakas

Ideas:
The one creature that can be bounced for free Spirit Blink I think
Mother of runes maybe
The artifact that can be converted in a creature when tapping lands
Ivory gargoyle maybe???

Another approach is using things like charbelcher or Terminus to kill those creatures

Another point related to Oblivion ring - Cataclism interaction:
you can use your oblivion on an permanet YOU own if you think youre going to play cataclism, or just simply keep it on hand. it is just a matter of knowing what to do with this.

I'll post my list soon... No much time...

Megadeus

07-15-2013, 07:30 AM

Mangara and Karakas? Seems bad because you cant recast the Mangara immediately and it seems like you dont really want to be doing that in this deck

nedleeds

07-15-2013, 08:18 AM

A Trinisphere followed by a Cataclism is almost gg-> I've won to Elves Decks because of this even!

WHO KNEW! Resolve Trinisphere then resolve Cataclism [sic], win the game!

Pelikanudo

07-15-2013, 01:27 PM

WHO KNEW! Resolve Trinisphere then resolve Cataclism [sic], win the game!

YES , and now imagine you have also L.Tax and a Creature Destroyer!

@Megadeus
Maybe Kjeldoran Outpost, the return of Swords to my Main maybe?
I need something to:
- destroy creatures or bounce maybe.
- has sinergy with cataclism
- if posible to be a creature or man land or enchantment convertible in creature or artifact convertible in creature.

I though in mangara also... I dont think Plain Creatures are going to be the key...

Something around this....

@Bennie:
It may be seem strange to some, but the fact is that with Land Tax you DO not need crucible, the fact is that you must play Crucible OR land tax, these 2 cards serves the same role in this deck, I faced a Stax deck and that stax deck was not able to overcome with his crucible, my land tax was better, we even both landed stax...
and related to wasteland, I think can be ok, but it is not needed, just put more nedles.

(nameless one)

07-15-2013, 02:34 PM

@ Pelikanudo's creature dilemma:

Have you ever considered Luminarch Ascension? Think about it, if you resolve a Cataclysm and had a means to get rid of your opponent's creature, your opponent probably won't be dealing damage to you, hence you're gonna be ramping your Luminarch Ascension.

Also, you can use Thalia. She's gonna be a removal target but having her in your "Cataclysm pile" could help you more.

Speaking of Cataclysm piles, what are some good one. Land Tax + Scroll Rack and Land Tax + Trinisphere are a given.

Benie Bederios

07-15-2013, 03:25 PM

That B. Wish List seems awfull to me, but the concept is moreless the same as mine when trying to build a B.Wish list, anyway that b.wish has the same problem as we face when we try to win Control Blue decks, I can warranty that if you build that list with 6 REB effects you will loose to those Blue Control decks anyway so I left to playing that kind of approaches.

Now I'm testing the Stax approach with:
- Cataclism
- Trinisphere

And it is beeing interesting the results vs control decks, I agree with the amount of permanents and the direction of the deck if we play Cataclism base, but it Works!

A Trinisphere followed by a Cataclism is almost gg-> I've won to Elves Decks because of this even!

this link will give you an idea of the deck (No chalice, less lands, full of S.Rack and full of trini):
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9424&iddeck=68831

Question:

Do you know boys any kind of creature that:
- Is indestructible or like - protection or can be recouped anyway
- Is White or artifact
- can do damage to creatures or destroy them

I mean I'm looking for a thing that kills creatures once cataclism is casted.
I've been thinking in Man Lands as you can convert the man land in creature whn casting Cataclism and next mar the land as creature and other as land.
Or any kind of legandary creature - bounced by Karakas

Ideas:
The one creature that can be bounced for free Spirit Blink I think
Mother of runes maybe
The artifact that can be converted in a creature when tapping lands
Ivory gargoyle maybe???

Another approach is using things like charbelcher or Terminus to kill those creatures

Another point related to Oblivion ring - Cataclism interaction:
you can use your oblivion on an permanet YOU own if you think youre going to play cataclism, or just simply keep it on hand. it is just a matter of knowing what to do with this.

I'll post my list soon... No much time...

There is always Eternal Dragon. If you want it cheaper it looks that Batterskull got some potential too. In Angel Stompy I always used Razor Golem but that card seems terribly weak without equipments.

If nothing else works I suppose you can always play 4Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and 4 StoneForge Mystics.

YES , and now imagine you have also L.Tax and a Creature Destroyer!

@Megadeus
Maybe Kjeldoran Outpost, the return of Swords to my Main maybe?
I need something to:
- destroy creatures or bounce maybe.
- has sinergy with cataclism
- if posible to be a creature or man land or enchantment convertible in creature or artifact convertible in creature.

I though in mangara also... I dont think Plain Creatures are going to be the key...

Something around this....

@Bennie:
It may be seem strange to some, but the fact is that with Land Tax you DO not need crucible, the fact is that you must play Crucible OR land tax, these 2 cards serves the same role in this deck, I faced a Stax deck and that stax deck was not able to overcome with his crucible, my land tax was better, we even both landed stax...
and related to wasteland, I think can be ok, but it is not needed, just put more nedles.

Yeah, but sometimes you want the cheap wins with Waste-lock. Or want to keep Smokestack on the table with an empty board on the other side. In a deck that already plays Enlightened Tutor Crucible of World is always a potnential slot.

@ Pelikanudo's creature dilemma:

Have you ever considered Luminarch Ascension? Think about it, if you resolve a Cataclysm and had a means to get rid of your opponent's creature, your opponent probably won't be dealing damage to you, hence you're gonna be ramping your Luminarch Ascension.

Also, you can use Thalia. She's gonna be a removal target but having her in your "Cataclysm pile" could help you more.

Speaking of Cataclysm piles, what are some good one. Land Tax + Scroll Rack and Land Tax + Trinisphere are a given.

Germ, Batterskull, Humility, although a little overkill. But it can work if the opponent has a full board. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Scroll Rack Land Tax.

.Bb>