June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

[KevinTrudeau]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/06202012a

Did the dude that bought up all of the Scroll Racks have inside information?

[dsck]

Lets speculate how high the price will jump! $60 by friday?

[Mr.C]

Hope so, but not 60.

It was in 4th and Battle Royale. I mean, I'm sitting on a ton waiting for this very day, but there's a ton of 4th out there.

[mini1337s]

Lol, checked SCG at 12:02 EST, 0 Land Tax in stock lol. PRICE JUMP AHOY!

[oRen]

I can not see Parfait working in Legacy.
I hope it generally flops so that they go on unbanning stuff.

[(nameless one)]

I am so glad I had my playset. I fucking love this card!

[KobeBryan]

Nothing is going to happen. Just a bunch of speculation and price jumps

[Vandalize]

I was really expecting the unban for Earthcraft.

Land Tax will definetely make Wasteland worse, and maybe power up some control.decks.

[Erdvermampfa]

Land Tax sucks in Legacy. Don't purchase a set since you won't make the expected profit.

[rxavage]

Naya Loam Assault? Too janky?

[Shawon]

I'm shocked they actually had the stones to unban Land Tax after waiting so long, especially after Aaron Forsythe mentioned how the infamous 'time issue' was the main force behind keeping Land Tax banned for years. (Shocked, for lack of a better term - don't take it literal, i'm tired).

I was really hoping Earthcraft would be unbanned, but unbanning Land Tax is a long overdue gift to the Legacy community. Hurray!

I'm hoping our claims that the 'time issue' wouldn't be an issue become officially true.

[Aggro_zombies]

I was really expecting the unban for Earthcraft.

Land Tax will definetely make Wasteland worse, and maybe power up some control.decks.
Land Tax will do neither. Having enough basics in your deck to make Land Tax worth it is a serious drawback, and the control deck most likely to benefit from LT - monowhite - is bad.

[Humphrey]

UW Control will love this card.

[Finn]

I can't believe they actually did it this time. The most talked about card to unban in the history of the format and they finally go through with it.

[jardach]

Any decklists idea? ;-) naya loam or UW ?

[Gammadoom]

Lol, checked SCG at 12:02 EST, 0 Land Tax in stock lol. PRICE JUMP AHOY!

I found some for $9 apiece. Figured it didn't hurt to grab 4.

[Vandalize]

Land Tax will do neither. Having enough basics in your deck to make Land Tax worth it is a serious drawback, and the control deck most likely to benefit from LT - monowhite - is bad.

Don't get me wrong. Land Tax is a nightmare for RUG Delver. And the ramp it provides will certainly make adaptations in a lot of decks.

[Koby]

I have a broken Land Tax deck:

4 Land Tax
4 Griselbrand
...

Wait, we don't need the first 4 anymore....

[Aggro_zombies]

Don't get me wrong. Land Tax is a nightmare for RUG Delver. And the ramp it provides will certainly make adaptations in a lot of decks.
It doesn't really ramp, though. I mean, if you're a land behind the opponent, they can turn off your Land Tax by simply missing a land drop and daring you to hamstring yourself on mana by playing another land. RUG Delver, for example, doesn't often have a bunch of lands in play; you'll likely get an LT trigger and then you'll have the same number of lands.

[Antonius]

It doesn't really ramp, though. I mean, if you're a land behind the opponent, they can turn off your Land Tax by simply missing a land drop and daring you to hamstring yourself on mana by playing another land. RUG Delver, for example, doesn't often have a bunch of lands in play; you'll likely get an LT trigger and then you'll have the same number of lands.

one LT trigger is all that you need. If the rest of your deck is doing work as it should you'll hang in tough then just make basic land drops. Once you're at about four or so in play thresh just loses.

[caiomarcos]

one LT trigger is all that you need. If the rest of your deck is doing work as it should you'll hang in tough then just make basic land drops. Once you're at about four or so in play thresh just loses.

Your deck won't be doing good work though, there will be 3 more Land Tax in it...

[Vandalize]

It doesn't really ramp, though. I mean, if you're a land behind the opponent, they can turn off your Land Tax by simply missing a land drop and daring you to hamstring yourself on mana by playing another land. RUG Delver, for example, doesn't often have a bunch of lands in play; you'll likely get an LT trigger and then you'll have the same number of lands.

If you can get one trigger, you're way ahead on RUG Delver. They use zero basic lands (they won't benefit for their own LT triggers) and their mana-denial plan is going to fail because of the fresh three basics.

3 basic lands for W is a really big threat for today's metagame (unless you're playing Tribal).

[Guevera59]

Unless they just Stifle Land Tax.

[Antonius]

Unless they just Stifle Land Tax.

YEAAAAAH, every turn until they have seven stifles in yard and double goose KILLS YOU DEAD

[menace13]

Because of Land Tax, Humility will warp the format now.

[Guevera59]

YEAAAAAH, every turn until they have seven stifles in yard and double goose KILLS YOU DEAD

If the guy playing Land Tax chooses to not play a land to try to get the Tax trigger, and the Delver opponent Stifles the trigger, that's a backbreaking play. Does the dude with Tax play a land and give up on Land Tax? Or does he choose to not make another land drop, putting him incredibly behind?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Lets speculate how high the price will jump! $60 by friday?

I'll speculate back down to $7-$8 by next month. Shitty card is shitty.

Highly contemplating digging up the posts of all the people who argued with me over the years that Land Tax was broken. Now we'll see (spoiler alert, it kind of sucks).

[(nameless one)]

I think the best way to abuse Land Tax (along with Scroll Rack) is with Armageddon.

You resolve Armageddon, your opponent drops a land on his/her turn, on your turn, Land Tax triggers.

Sol land and Mox Diamond helps you get to the higher casting cost spells (such as Armageddon). The best Sol land you can use is Crystal Vein since it has that self sacrifice that you can control.

The rest of the deck can be built around cheap/free spells. Miracle cards are awesome here (and they work well with Scroll Rack).

I'm not saying its a broken card. It's like Dream Halls or Metalworker that you have to build around it. I just have that unconditional love for Land Tax.

[menace13]

If the guy playing Land Tax chooses to not play a land to try to get the Tax trigger, and the Delver opponent Stifles the trigger, that's a backbreaking play. Does the dude with Tax play a land and give up on Land Tax? Or does he choose to not make another land drop, putting him incredibly behind?

Good question. Does it change if the Land tax player also has Mox Diamond and/or Wasteland? Is there removal in hand? I would likely try to force RUG to play the 2nd land drop.

[Moondancerbb]

YEAAAAAH, every turn until they have seven stifles in yard and double goose KILLS YOU DEAD

Every turn your not dropping land is a turn they are ahead since they just operate off of 2 mana and you cant make a land drop because you are trying to get it trigger.

The card is narrow but is definitely a way to fight back against the proliferation of wasteland so it will be a good thing. I very much doubt that its going to bust the format or the current meta.

The reality is its about time we found out if we can break it with land tax.

I predict we see it in Enchantress, Death and Taxes, And mono white stax if that is still a thing.

[morgan_coke]

By far the best of use of Land Tax is to improve an E. Tutor UW Thopter/CounterTop deck that runs bullets like Back to Basics. Unfortunately it doesn't improve that deck enough to make it relevant against the main things that prey on it, like speed from RUG/Delve or anything with Griselbrand. Maybe if you went three colors, and dropped top and balance for Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library and ran 4x Suppression Field you'd have a start, but I doubt it would be good enough.

[Antonius]

If the guy playing Land Tax chooses to not play a land to try to get the Tax trigger, and the Delver opponent Stifles the trigger, that's a backbreaking play. Does the dude with Tax play a land and give up on Land Tax? Or does he choose to not make another land drop, putting him incredibly behind?

If you're up against thresh you just play your lands it doesn't matter where they came from. You're not afraid of them getting a tax trigger in their favor at all and your route to victory is simply getting lands into play.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Land Tax's best use is as a sideboard card for E. Tutor wishboards in LD heavy meta's IMO. Otherwise it's best use is trading to noobs as of today.

[mishima_kazuya]

Doesn't seem that good in a format of mana dorks from Maverick, RUG threshold decks and unreal fatties being cheated in.

[menace13]

By far the best of use of Land Tax is to improve an E. Tutor UW Thopter/CounterTop deck that runs bullets like Back to Basics. Unfortunately it doesn't improve that deck enough to make it relevant against the main things that prey on it, like speed from RUG/Delve or anything with Griselbrand. Maybe if you went three colors, and dropped top and balance for Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library and ran 4x Suppression Field you'd have a start, but I doubt it would be good enough.

Because Jace and Thopters require infi mana then.

[Moondancerbb]

Possible positive interactions with Undiscovered Paradise since it leaves the field during your untap phase

[catmint]

I am curious for the post of the guy who has "never discuss the unbanning of land tax" as legacy rule number 1 in his signature...:)...love to see it unwanted but don't think parfait will become a tier deck...

[morgan_coke]

Because Jace and Thopters require infi mana then.

Right. Yeah, I just have a hard time seeing it work anywhere. Also, is there any world where it's better to combine Tax with Scroll Rack than with Jace/Top?

[dontbiteitholmes]

I am curious for the post of the guy who has "never discuss the unbanning of land tax" as legacy rule number 1 in his signature...:)...love to see it unwanted but don't think parfait will become a tier deck...

I think that was more in reference to the shitstorm it caused on forums back in the day. I don't think that guy seriously thinks it's broken.

[Pippin]

This should go straight into some version of UW deck. It's pretty bonkers with Jace and Brainstorm, true cheap draw engine.
Most likely we'll see decks evolving into some kind of Humility + Thopters hybrids fueled with land tax draw.

Btw, speculation is rampant. $50 legends land tax? :rolleyes:

[Antonius]

I'm starting to think that BW might be the best use of Land Tax. Blue decks want to get to four mana for Jace and, inevitably, five mana so they can jam force and really control the game. All of the control and disruption in black and white is dirt cheap. You can play the whole game with two mana out.

[Moondancerbb]

Seems like you could get positive mileage out of land tax with Raven's crime.

[catmint]

I think that was more in reference to the shitstorm it caused on forums back in the day. I don't think that guy seriously thinks it's broken.
Ahhh I see....
Were there really worse shitstorms in the past? What I experienced in my relatively young legacy career (brainstorm, misstep, temporal mastery, griselbrand) was already really bad...

[Antonius]

Seems like you could get positive mileage out of land tax with Raven's crime.

i guess, if you lead with Scrubland every time. If you had basic plains...i don't think you'd have access to enough black mana to make them discard relevant spells.

[Bardo]

Re: Land Tax.

About Fucking Time.

Seriously though, :)

[boneclub24]

It won't break the format, and it might breed a new deck or two. I like these kind of unbans.

[(nameless one)]

I just realized, why not run a deck that got Land Tax banned from Old Extended?

You know, that White Weenie deck that used Tax+Rack draw engine.

I mean we have miles away better white hatebears. Why not right?

[Gheizen64]

I believe the best thing that will come from this will be more unbannings. When the card storm the meta by doing absolutely nothing, maybe the DCI will realize that a lot of the things on their lists is simply worse than things already out.

[Antonius]

I just realized, why not run a deck that got Land Tax banned from Old Extended?

You know, that White Weenie deck that used Tax+Rack draw engine.

I mean we have miles away better white hatebears. Why not right?

idk what that white weenie decks' creatures were, but were they better than the dudes that Death and Taxes runs right now? Did that deck run Vial? Seems to me that one could just jam tax+ rack with DnT. Thalia and aether vial and port are all synergistic with Tax and DnT is already pretty well positioned in the meta.

[CookedChestnuts]

I just realized, why not run a deck that got Land Tax banned from Old Extended?

You know, that White Weenie deck that used Tax+Rack draw engine.

I mean we have miles away better white hatebears. Why not right?

Parfait?

I think this is subpar really, it shouldn't add anything to the table. It's strong, but it puts you behind. I like to think of this as a Temporal Mastery-esque situation, where it can obviously be nuts, which is good, but at the same time, playing numerous copies in a deck can be bad, in a way that Land Tax sets you back.

If your opponent goes turn 1 Delver of Secrets, and you drop a Land Tax, your opponent flips Delver, plays a Goose/Ponders, and passes back to you. You get your Land Tax trigger Stifled. What do you do? Essentially, you just wasted your first turn, which could go towards actually trying to beat the god damn Delver, via Thoughtseize, Mother of Runes, etc. (Mentioned by Tony about BW/Deadguy wanting this card), or do you wait one more turn to get your Land Tax trigger potentially Stifled again? Either way, you're really far behind, especially if you kept a 1 lander.

Edit: One thing is for certain. While people are dicking around trying to break this Model T of a card, I'll be crushing face with Griselbrand all day.

[Gheizen64]

I just realized, why not run a deck that got Land Tax banned from Old Extended?

You know, that White Weenie deck that used Tax+Rack draw engine.

I mean we have miles away better white hatebears. Why not right?

4 Mox diamond
4 Path To exile
4 Land Tax
4 Vial
4 Thorn of Amethyst

20 hatebears

20 lands (undiscovered paradise is probably between the twenty)

gg? This should be called Taxes and Taxes

EDIT: i'll have fun seeing the rationale of the people that argued this was holy schmoly broken and worse than MM now.

[Michael Keller]

Land Tax is going to be awful in Legacy today. It was good maybe fifteen years ago when you could find lands after casting an Armageddon or a Balance (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/178). (Loved that deck, by the way.)

I also heard someone say Land Tax will make Wasteland worse. If you're running that many basics already, Wasteland was already worse to begin with - even without Land Tax.

[feline]

Yea, the format has sped up since the days of "white weenies, armageddon, land tax in play woohoo!" It will take more to break the card now vs back then, I could see people pushing it in different setups however, threads getting attention already are things like the mighty quinn, death and taxes, U/W control, Parfait between all the places I'm scouring over.

-Also, check the price on scroll rack now, lol, go go secondary markets.

[ESG]

idk what that white weenie decks' creatures were, but were they better than the dudes that Death and Taxes runs right now? Did that deck run Vial? Seems to me that one could just jam tax+ rack with DnT. Thalia and aether vial and port are all synergistic with Tax and DnT is already pretty well positioned in the meta.

I played that deck in the old Extended. It ran Empyrial Armor and shadow dudes.

Jon Finkel's GP-winning Tax Rack

10 Plains
4 Plateau
1 Undiscovered Paradise

3 Order of Leitbur
3 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Savannah Lions
4 Soltari Priest
4 White Knight

1 Armageddon
3 Disenchant
4 Empyrial Armor
1 Firestorm
4 Land Tax
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Scroll Rack
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tithe

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Land Tax is good in formats where the fundamental turn is at least twice what it is in Legacy. The card is close to completely unplayable.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Land Tax is good in formats where the fundamental turn is at least twice what it is in Legacy. The card is close to completely unplayable.

Yeah the only time I ever see Land Tax being worth it it's is as a 1x running with some number of Enlightened Tutors.

[boneclub24]

Yeah the only time I ever see Land Tax being worth it it's is as a 1x running with some number of Enlightened Tutors.

And if people want that option, more power to them I say.

[(nameless one)]

Land Tax is good in formats where the fundamental turn is at least twice what it is in Legacy. The card is close to completely unplayable.

These words made me convince Land Tax sucks.

Im sticking with Quinn

[dahcmai]

There is also the RW control deck that's been screaming for this card forever. It might finally make a showing since it now has a way to get a small engine online.

Land Tax was broken in 1995, not so much anymore, but it's still a a decent card.

[Firstborn]

There is also the RW control deck that's been screaming for this card forever. It might finally make a showing since it now has a way to get a small engine online.

Just out of interest, have you got a decklist for this, please?

[I am the brainwasher]

Land Tax is good in formats where the fundamental turn is at least twice what it is in Legacy. The card is close to completely unplayable.
I think this is more true than most players want it to be. I am definetly so not spending any money on either Scroll Rack or Land Tax, thats for sure.
Well, I have nontheless a gut feeling that I might get trolled with decks that pack SDT, Scroll Rack and Land Tax to ensure G2/3 is not going to happen everrr.

[ramanujan]

About time. Too bad the card wont see any real play. I have my set of Legends Land Taxes from back when I was a Parfait fiend so I am covered if it happens to do well. As is, my land taxes will be of better use in Commander decks.

[Julian23]

The DCI has broken the first rule of Fight Club.

[Infinitium]

So, no changes to the format then?

[jrw1985]

Don't get me wrong. Land Tax is a nightmare for RUG Delver. And the ramp it provides will certainly make adaptations in a lot of decks.

RUG will play 1 Tropical Island and 1 Volcanic Island and laugh at Land Tax while delivering Delver beats.

[Gheizen64]

So, no changes to the format then?

I already made that joke but no one noticed it :cry:

[nedleeds]

The value of Land Tax on the play is in landing Diamond or Chrome Mox, and depending on what internet deck with 4 x Brainstorm, 4 x Force of Will you are playing against that might be an auto-force.

On the draw Land Tax can be a little trickier, since running it into Daze not only counters it but puts you ahead in land parity for future Taxes (or trying to push your tax through with force).

With tax your brainstorms with a shuffle effect are almost always full on ancestrals since you have plenty of sandbagged lands.

I would have liked to see Mind Twist come off along with this. Tax was always a nice counter to Mind Twist and other random discard.

Edit: Also ... I think it's funny that scroll rack sits at 25-30, when Tax which has a ton more copies printed is 40-70. Also, Mox Diamond should be the card to prey upon if you feel tax will be a thing in the format.

[jrw1985]

The only way to really abuse Land Tax is to use it in tandem with Scroll Rack to draw 4 cards per turn, right? If you're not drawing 4 cards per turn it really isn't worth devoting 12 slots of your deck to this combo (Tax + Rack + Enlightened Tutor). It's a really big card, mana, and design commitment to even make it playable. Because, let's face it, noone actually wants to just draw 3 or 6 basic lands with Land tax.

I'm not terribly hopeful about Land Tax seeing play down the road, for the simple reason that it's trigger is pretty conditional given the insanely low land-count in modern Legacy. How many decks never play more than 3 lands before they win?
RUG Delver
Reanimator
Storm
Dredge
Burn

Is anyone really excited about playing a card that does nothing the turn it's cast, does nothing on the play, needs a second card to make it good, and might not even trigger against many of the most popular decks in the field?

[sdematt]

Awful card is still awful.

I play UW Thopters, and I have no reason to cut slots to add in Land Tax. It's not like I'm putting the lands into play.

This card is super slow, and if you're buying ANY fourth edition card for more than a few dollars, well, something about a fool and his money and there's one every minute.

-Matt

[DragoFireheart]

I didn't expect Land Tax to get unbanned.

In any case, it was a good choice of them. Unban a relatively harmless card and banned nothing.

Earthcraft is probably next.

[nedleeds]

Is anyone really excited about playing a card that does nothing the turn it's cast, does nothing on the play, needs a second card to make it good, and might not even trigger against many of the most popular decks in the field?

Yeah ... I mean you are basically stating why it should have been taken off years ago. The same arguments go for several other cards, but I understand them wanting to go one card at a time to get a better feel for the impact.

Land Tax could be the backbone of a white control deck ... maybe throw back to the prison days. Tools like Tabernacle with Winter Orb are a pretty solid lock versus men, other lock pieces can shut out combo (leyline, rule of law, trinisphere, geddon, runed halo, suppression field). Also a u/w control deck can get pretty insane mid-game Jace-storms and Brainstorms out of just a couple of tax triggers. What newer players maybe aren't seeing is that 1-2 triggers is all it takes and you've more than compensated for the slots the taxes took up. Your deck is drained of lands and is just a pile of gas and shuffles (the remaining fetches).

I bet they sat around the DCI office and put Mind Twist, Earthcraft, Black Vise, Land Tax and Worldgorger Dragon in a Fedora ... then just picked one at random.

Edit: also ... Firestorm.

[Gui]

The DCI has broken the first rule of Fight Club.

LOL haha

That's ok man, it's been a long time since they've been created xD

[Freggle]

Land Tax isn't a utility card it is an archetype.

I suspect brewers will develop a tier or close to tier deck showcasing this card in relatively short order.

Academy Rector / Land's Edge burn? [shrug]

...to early to tell.

Edit: Seismic Assault

[Malakai]

I didn't expect Land Tax to get unbanned.

In any case, it was a good choice of them. Unban a relatively harmless card and banned nothing.

Earthcraft is probably next.

Everybody keeps saying that, except it turns the enchantress deck into a turn 3 combo deck that never loses to blue decks.

[Freggle]

Everybody keeps saying that, except it turns the enchantress deck into a turn 3 combo deck that never loses to blue decks.

I love me some Squirrel - Craft.

[Aggro_zombies]

Everybody keeps saying that, except it turns the enchantress deck into a turn 3 combo deck that never loses to blue decks.
Enchantress could probably use some love. The deck isn't that great these days as it is.

[Malakai]

I love me some Squirrel - Craft.

Squirrels are actually the secondary win condition. Sigil of the Empty Throne also allows you to combo out, as does Words of Wind.

[Koby]

Elves is even faster... Wirewood Hivemaster actually makes each elf cast net positive mana.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

People are playing it on workstation! I was about to 2-0 him when he played Tax with a Scroll Rack on the board. I had 5 lands, 4 Islands and a Wasteland, he had 4 Snow-covered Plains. So, I sac'ed my Wasteland targeting itself and this exchange ensues:



0:10:01 [Cubby225] Cubby225 taps Wasteland
0:10:04 [Cubby225] Cubby225 puts Wasteland to Graveyard from Play
0:10:08 [Cubby225] It is now turn 23 (Cubby225)
0:10:08 [Cubby225] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:10:10 [Cubby225] Cubby225 untaps his/her permanents
0:10:10 [Cubby225] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:10:10 [QTD] <QTD> target?
0:10:12 [QTD] <QTD> Wait!
0:10:12 [QTD] <QTD> Wait!
0:10:13 [QTD] <QTD> Wait!
0:10:13 [Cubby225] <Cubby225> itself
0:10:19 [Cubby225] <Cubby225> you can
0:10:19 [QTD] <QTD> can't
0:10:35 [Cubby225] <Cubby225> yes, announce targets -> pay costs
0:10:39 [QTD] <QTD> lol
0:10:44 [QTD] <QTD> read the rules
0:10:47 [QTD] <QTD> CAN'T
0:10:52 [Cubby225] <Cubby225> one sec
0:11:25 [Cubby225] <Cubby225> google wasteland itself
0:11:33 [Cubby225] <Cubby225> first link on the mana drain
0:11:43 [QTD] <QTD> Don't waste my time!!
0:11:58 [Cubby225] <Cubby225> learn the rules bro
0:12:05 [QTD] <QTD> CYA NOOB
0:12:06 [<System>] <System> Player Lost


I love MWS.

[hi-val]

There exists a big gulf between unplayable jank and too-good broken stuff. I'd like to remind people that Land Tax fits in there. It's a solid role-player. The Tax-Rack engine is a strong one, but it obviously requires work to get going. Tax is probably not as good on its own. It's probably not as good when you're just using it to feed things like Seismic Assault. I do think the card shows a lot of promise with Trade Routes, since you can play lands as normal and then, when you need to, turn on the Tax and start cycling lands away.

It's like when Facebook's IPO was announced and everyone wanted to be smarter than the market and say "lol too ezxpunsive, would never buy." And sure, it was overpriced at $40/share, but it's worth a non-zero number, and that number is probably in the mid-$20s at the very least. Land Tax will be played; it probably won't be great, but like Replenish and Time Spiral, it'll be a valuable card in the decks that can use it.

[DrJones]

Some cards with good sinergy with Landtax:

Zuran Orb
Path to Exile
Ivory Tower
Daze
Mox Diamond
Aether Vial
Tithe
Liliana of the Veil
Smallpox
Mana Tithe
Foil
Brainstorm
Mind Swords
Devastating Dreams
Firestorm
scroll rack
Empyrial Armor
Wild Mongrel

I think the best route would be the white/black mana denial plan with smallpox and mana tithe, given that LandTax wants the opponent to play as light on lands as possible.

[jrw1985]

Land Tax
Scroll Rack
Life From the Loam
Seismic Assault

For the low low cost of only 3 cards in play and 1 in hand/graveyard and 3 mana a turn you too can search your library for three lands in your upkeep, discard them to deal 6 damage, return them to your hand, then draw 3 cards and put 3 lands back on top of your library.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There exists a big gulf between unplayable jank and too-good broken stuff. I'd like to remind people that Land Tax fits in there. It's a solid role-player. The Tax-Rack engine is a strong one, but it obviously requires work to get going. Tax is probably not as good on its own. It's probably not as good when you're just using it to feed things like Seismic Assault. I do think the card shows a lot of promise with Trade Routes, since you can play lands as normal and then, when you need to, turn on the Tax and start cycling lands away.

It's like when Facebook's IPO was announced and everyone wanted to be smarter than the market and say "lol too ezxpunsive, would never buy." And sure, it was overpriced at $40/share, but it's worth a non-zero number, and that number is probably in the mid-$20s at the very least. Land Tax will be played; it probably won't be great, but like Replenish and Time Spiral, it'll be a valuable card in the decks that can use it.

A lot of cards are either amazing or trash. Combo cards certainly tend to fit into this category, but some utility ones do as well. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and Lightning Rift are for instance examples of cards that are amazing in and of themselves... if the deck they have to be in can carry some of the rest of the weight. But they can't so they aren't. Lim Dul's Vault is another card that's been one of the most powerful pieces of certain decks, when a combo deck that exists can really utilize it; but most of Legacy's history it's been completely unplayed.

Another card similar to Land Tax in this regard is Recurring Nightmare. In formats that are slow enough for Recurring Nightmare to be relevant, it is devastatingly poweful. It's usually a windmill first pick in Cube and banned in both the American and French EDH lists. And yet in Legacy, it sees no play at all. Certainly no decks with it place. Why? Because the format is fundamentally too fast. It would be helpful perhaps to take this principle to its furthest point and imagine that the following card exists;

Memento Mori
Sorcery
1B
Play Memento Mori only on your tenth turn or later.
Target player loses the game.

Now, that card would be outrageously powerful in certain formats; specifically, formats where getting to the tenth turn is a reasonable proposition.

In Legacy, however, that card would quite certainly see little to no play because it does nothing during the turns you're likely to see; and even the kill conditions of very controlling decks like BUG or Miracle come online earlier than that.

Another example; Krosan Tusker. Now, it's no secret to some that I love me some piggy. But even I have had to admit that it's just not a good Legacy card. But why? It's been a staple in a lot of formats. It was a must-of in 5-color, routinely shows up in EDH and while not a first pick, almost always makes and keeps a slot in Cube lists. But those are formats where you the incentive to go three or four colors are stronger than the manabases often allow, and the importance of getting to four mana is greater. In Legacy, the card was barely playable in the days when Landstill and Rifter and Wombat were running around and Isamaru was a reasonable aggro creature. It's certainly not making the cut now.

For the same reasons, Land Tax, while being a card that has the potential to be powerful, is trash in Legacy. The curves are too low, the format too fast, and the engine too clunky. I'm grateful for the apparently recent invention of the word "durdly" because that's exactly what LandTax-ScrollRack is. It's durdly. Even if you get it going, and that's far from a guarantee, you're expending a lot of energy just to draw some extra cards at the exact same time you're losing the game.

Land Tax also faces the threat of obsolescence from Life from the Loam, which does much of what Land Tax does but better.

[Basaka]

You can now play land tax at GP Atlanta. They moved the effective date to the 29th!

[Humphrey]

In my first testings, i found Land Tax very useful. Needs some tweaks in deckbuiling ofc, but it can increase the basic land count without drawback and thats a good thing.

[Cynicath]

I'm confused as to how these conditional 2 card combos like TaxRack (which net you nothing more than card advantage) are supposedly superior to an unconditional 2 card "I win the game" combo, ala Entomb/Exhume Griselbrand.

[csy]

because its new and people want to brew about it. All I know is that Im happy to see people brewing and bringing barely tested decks expecting to win. Just less bad match ups for me.

[Cynicath]

because its new and people want to brew about it. All I know is that Im happy to see people brewing and bringing barely tested decks expecting to win. Just less bad match ups for me.

I totally get that, and definitely am stoked that new decks could emerge from this unbanning, I guess the point I was trying (and failing) to make is why is Land Tax suddenly $40? The only logical reason for people to believe it will stay at that inflated price is if it really does become a MAJOR player, and I don't see it happening. Though I suppose my mistake there was trying to apply logic to the MtG secondary market.

[Brushwagg]

I knew there was a reason I held on to my Land Taxes.

[whienot]

You can now play land tax at GP Atlanta. They moved the effective date to the 29th!

I just saw that :eek:

Interesting move by WoTC.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Ahhh I see....
Were there really worse shitstorms in the past? What I experienced in my relatively young legacy career (brainstorm, misstep, temporal mastery, griselbrand) was already really bad...

Yes. Oh my god yes.

Back in the day on these forums you weren't really even supposed to discuss banning/unbanning cards.

Everytime someone did it would usually start with "unban Land Tax." Everyone would agree but then one or two idiots would chime in it was broken. Then people would start discussing other cards that should be unbanned, usually starting with Earthcraft and quickly having people escalate to stuff like Mana Drain (which is still a bad idea but would have been absolutely insane this far back), Dragon, Frantic Search, Vampiric, Channel, ect. Then it would get even more retarded and people would start chiming in with stuff like Strip Mine, Gush, Necro... Everyone would call everyone else a fucking idiot then the thread would get locked. A couple months would pass then rinse/repeat.


Everybody keeps saying that, except it turns the enchantress deck into a turn 3 combo deck that never loses to blue decks.

What? How does Earthcraft make Enchantress beat blue decks? Aside from slightly buffing Argothians and making Sacred Mesa + Wild Growth + Earthcraft a combo what does it really do? By the time you assemble a 3 card combo in Enchantress with 2 cards doing very little on their own a normal Enchantress list could have locked the opponent out of the game. Unless you are running all the combo pieces in multiples I don't see how you get any consistent turn 3 win. If you are running tutors MD you are going to be assembling that combo at a snails pace and be that much worse vs. blue decks.

I've played a lot of Enchantress and I just don't see Earthcraft making sense in multiples. I'm not even sure I would run it at all in Enchantress. It really doesn't add much to the deck and if you are running Mesa over Sigil to make it anything better than "untap target basic land once a turn" you are trading a good wincon for a terrible one unless Craft is in play.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Earthcraft-Squirrel Nest is only two cards. Also Squirrel Nest is fairly useful by itself. It would be quite decent in Enchantress and push it up in power. But it'd still be safe I think.

Dragon too.

Also Mana Drain was often discussed back in the old days because it had been legal and a defining but not particularly insane card in old 1.5. I mean it was definitely top tier but it never felt broken. And yes, it'd be much more fair now when Counterspell barely sees play and the mana curve is so much lower.

[Vacrix]

I wonder if Enchantress will play Land Tax. They can feed Solitary Confinement with it and it seems like a decent draw Engine with Attunement. Return Attunement, discard some lands, draw 3 cards. Rinse and Repeat.

Other than those two, I can't think of too many uses for Land Tax. Fuck Scroll Rack, that shit is way too slow for this metagame. And Seismic Assualt... is much better with Loam than it is with Land Tax because Loam actually serves a purpose by itself while Land Tax is rarely useful in that respect unless you are staring down a Loam or Crucible Wastelock.

I have a feeling Land Tax will suffer the same fate as Grim Monolith; nobody plays it.

[Tao]

Memento Mori
Sorcery
1B
Play Memento Mori only on your tenth turn or later.
Target player loses the game.

Now, that card would be outrageously powerful in certain formats; specifically, formats where getting to the tenth turn is a reasonable proposition.

In Legacy, however, that card would quite certainly see little to no play because it does nothing during the turns you're likely to see; and even the kill conditions of very controlling decks like BUG or Miracle come online earlier than that.

card is not unplayble. it would be heavily played.

[useL]

one LT trigger is all that you need. If the rest of your deck is doing work as it should you'll hang in tough then just make basic land drops. Once you're at about four or so in play thresh just loses.

So I start, land->delver, your turn you drop a land tax from a tundra, then my turn, i dont play a land but play another delver/mongoose and swing with my flipped delver.

Now what? You play a land and never get to activate your land tax? Or you hold on to your one land and dont develop your board?

You go ahead and play your Land Tax. Go ahead.

[(nameless one)]

Apparently, Land Tax will be legal for GP:ATL (https://twitter.com/TrickMTG/status/215593156178223105)

[Vacrix]

Lol... there's so many ZOMGTAX.dec forums springing up right now. I feel like the IRS is cracking down on Legacy or something.

Also..
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/382420_10150902151060954_971352634_n.jpg

[Humphrey]

So I start, land->delver, your turn you drop a land tax from a tundra, then my turn, i dont play a land but play another delver/mongoose and swing with my flipped delver.

Now what? You play a land and never get to activate your land tax? Or you hold on to your one land and dont develop your board?

You go ahead and play your Land Tax. Go ahead.

Or Rug wastes/stfiles my first land drop, plays a second land and i drop land tax on my second turn.

[Richard Cheese]

Or Rug wastes/stfiles my first land drop, plays a second land and i drop land tax on my second turn.

Daze. My turn?

[Humphrey]

Daze. My turn?

This scenario is stupid, because if you kill my first land, play delver and counter my 1-drop it doesnt matter if I play tax or not..

Also I can play daze with tax too, and so on...

The card is absolutely playable and the lowered duals/fetch count you play with it, doesnt help RUG´s plan in the first place.

[rxavage]

Daze. My turn?

Lol, I'm sure it would be common. But seriously, why is it always best case vs. worst case? So Land Tax deck will probably have a bad RUG match-up, what deck has a great RUG match-up along with the rest of the field? I'm sure Tax will find a home and maybe even appear in a top 8 or two withing the next 2 months. Who knows, MWC could become a dtb someday.

[SpikeyMikey]

Also Mana Drain was often discussed back in the old days because it had been legal and a defining but not particularly insane card in old 1.5. I mean it was definitely top tier but it never felt broken. And yes, it'd be much more fair now when Counterspell barely sees play and the mana curve is so much lower.

I guess that depends largely on your definition of broken. Broken the way a card like Will or Tinker is broken? No. But like you said, it was definitely above the curve. It put massive design constraints on the format. Pre-split (i.e. before Drain ban), the format was primarily a 3-way between Dragon, Landstill and FCG. But there was a small spattering of aggro, mostly in the form of Zilla Stompy. Like a cross between Stompy and Sligh in T1 at the time, it relied heavily on aggressive 1 drops. Why? Because Drain was that scary. Because even Drain into Disk cut off 4-6 damage that would've gotten through had they actually had to tap lands for it. And Drain into a massive DoJ? Yeesh.

Post-split, Zoo replaced Zilla style decks with beaters like Troll Ascetic and Blastoderm. Those would not have been at all playable had Drain still existed in the format. Something with that far-reaching of an effect is hard not to label as broken. The way Brainstorm is broken. The way GSZ is broken. When you build, when you play, you *have* to take those cards into account.

[goblin_lackey]

So it seems that it will take the DCI 5 years to fix their mistakes?

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/14528_Unlocking_Legacy_8212_The_Banned_Facts.html

[xfxf]

Lol, I'm sure it would be common. But seriously, why is it always best case vs. worst case? So Land Tax deck will probably have a bad RUG match-up, what deck has a great RUG match-up along with the rest of the field? I'm sure Tax will find a home and maybe even appear in a top 8 or two withing the next 2 months. Who knows, MWC could become a dtb someday.

I still think there could be a mono-white Stax style deck with a bunch of basic Plains, artifact mana, Chalice, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Land Tax, some Sol Lands which can lock down RUG, Griselbrand, Maverick...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I guess that depends largely on your definition of broken. Broken the way a card like Will or Tinker is broken? No. But like you said, it was definitely above the curve. It put massive design constraints on the format. Pre-split (i.e. before Drain ban), the format was primarily a 3-way between Dragon, Landstill and FCG. But there was a small spattering of aggro, mostly in the form of Zilla Stompy. Like a cross between Stompy and Sligh in T1 at the time, it relied heavily on aggressive 1 drops. Why? Because Drain was that scary. Because even Drain into Disk cut off 4-6 damage that would've gotten through had they actually had to tap lands for it. And Drain into a massive DoJ? Yeesh.

Post-split, Zoo replaced Zilla style decks with beaters like Troll Ascetic and Blastoderm. Those would not have been at all playable had Drain still existed in the format. Something with that far-reaching of an effect is hard not to label as broken. The way Brainstorm is broken. The way GSZ is broken. When you build, when you play, you *have* to take those cards into account.

Troll Ascetic was the all-star in ZillaStompy before the ban list separation. In fact that was its time of greatest play. And actually Troll Ascetic was considered so powerful because it couldn't be dealt with by the Landstill decks once it landed; they could counter it, sure, but their StPs and Disks didn't hit it.

Also no one outside of California put Blastoderm in Zoo at any point.

People didn't stop playing expensive spells because of Mana Drain, I don't know what format you remember. Goblins certainly didn't, MUD (which had easily displaced FCG in the top three prior to the separation) didn't, Solidarity didn't. Mana Drain was a very good and well played card but I find it hard to accept it as warping, especially when your description doesn't conform to my memory of what 1.5 was actually like.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I guess that depends largely on your definition of broken. Broken the way a card like Will or Tinker is broken? No. But like you said, it was definitely above the curve. It put massive design constraints on the format. Pre-split (i.e. before Drain ban), the format was primarily a 3-way between Dragon, Landstill and FCG. But there was a small spattering of aggro, mostly in the form of Zilla Stompy. Like a cross between Stompy and Sligh in T1 at the time, it relied heavily on aggressive 1 drops. Why? Because Drain was that scary. Because even Drain into Disk cut off 4-6 damage that would've gotten through had they actually had to tap lands for it. And Drain into a massive DoJ? Yeesh.


Don't forget the Workshop decks.

[ivanpei]

Man all this hype is ridiculous. I'd sell the landtaxes now. The card is just okay. We've had loam for years, which IMO is a much better card. It's uncounterable somewhat and actually gives you useful non basics that you can cycle or use to waste the opponent's lands. Loam needs no other card to be good, it does not require you to miss land drops and it dredges to get more lands/ punishing fire into the yard.

Land tax will need a deck dedicated to it. UW control will not play land tax mainly because they cannot afford to miss land drops. Most other decks will not be playing land tax as well. Scroll rack is also painfully slow as a draw engine. The most crippling thing is that land tax messes up your own mana developement, your land choices and does not work well alone unlike loam which is a powerhouse with any fetchland/cycle land/wasteland. I see it being good in some kind of aggro control deck where your land drops aren't that important ala uw tempo. You can drop lands, then use daze and that dude that morphs to return lands to you hand and activate land tax. Then you will have the question of "now what?" they're not nonbasics that you can abuse, so it's going to be a challenge.

[Digital Devil]

RGW Loam with Land Tax and Winds of Change looks pretty attractive on paper.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

RGW Loam with Land Tax and Winds of Change looks pretty attractive on paper.

People often omit the key phrase in the classic rule of card advantage, which is that "The player who draws the most cards tends to win as long as those cards do something useful."

In your case you'd be drawing a lot of lands and Land Taxes and LftL and Winds of Changes, which, you know, not so much.

[nedleeds]

People often omit the key phrase in the classic rule of card advantage, which is that "The player who draws the most cards tends to win as long as those cards do something useful."

In your case you'd be drawing a lot of lands and Land Taxes and LftL and Winds of Changes, which, you know, not so much.

While this is true, in a 60 card deck with 22ish lands if you land tax twice then Scroll Rack your "card quality" should go up pretty savagely. 2.5% ish less chance of seeing a land on each try.

[Nihil Credo]

Outside of land-based combos (Seismic Assault etc.), Squadron Hawk is probably a better card than Land Tax. How many Ancestral Recalls do you need to win the game?

[Amon Amarth]

Outside of land-based combos (Seismic Assault etc.), Squadron Hawk is probably a better card than Land Tax. How many Ancestral Recalls do you need to win the game?

But... but... but the DCI said it was dangerous!

[Aggro_zombies]

While this is true, in a 60 card deck with 22ish lands if you land tax twice then Scroll Rack your "card quality" should go up pretty savagely. 2.5% ish less chance of seeing a land on each try.
I'm not sure increasing my card quality by 2.5% per pop is worth the costs of (a) needing to build my deck around a combo that does nothing in itself to win the game but nevertheless requires resource commitment, (b) requiring me to be continuously behind on mana for it to work, and (c) having 3-4 copies each of Land Tax and Scroll Rack in my deck in order to maximize my chances of seeing the combo in a relevant time interval.

I mean, you could just run Jace, the Mind Sculptor and not have this problem in the first place.

[Gheizen64]

I find it funny that a lot of the "pro" of the SGC circuit are deeming Land Tax as a bad unbanning. The card is too "unfun" they say, in the format where T2 griselbrand is common... it's like i am in reverse land.

[Humphrey]

I'm not sure increasing my card quality by 2.5% per pop is worth the costs of (a) needing to build my deck around a combo that does nothing in itself to win the game but nevertheless requires resource commitment, (b) requiring me to be continuously behind on mana for it to work, and (c) having 3-4 copies each of Land Tax and Scroll Rack in my deck in order to maximize my chances of seeing the combo in a relevant time interval.

I mean, you could just run Jace, the Mind Sculptor and not have this problem in the first place.


a) play less fetches and duals and more basics is always good against aggro and wasteland
b) heard of diamond mox or daze dude?
c) scroll rack is crap and 2 land tax seems the right choice

Jace+Tax=$$

[nedleeds]

I'm not sure increasing my card quality by 2.5% per pop is worth the costs of (a) needing to build my deck around a combo that does nothing in itself to win the game but nevertheless requires resource commitment, (b) requiring me to be continuously behind on mana for it to work, and (c) having 3-4 copies each of Land Tax and Scroll Rack in my deck in order to maximize my chances of seeing the combo in a relevant time interval.

I mean, you could just run Jace, the Mind Sculptor and not have this problem in the first place.

Well we're completely discounting the cards primary purpose. You will never face land issues and you laugh at wasteland. Add to that the thinning effect of 2.5%x3x#oftriggers is just gravy. You don't actually need scroll rack to see that, a simple Brainstorm should reveal more juice.

There are a number of older cards that are positively impacted by Land Tax, not just Scroll Rack.

- Brainstorm
- Top
- Ivory Tower
- Scroll Rack
- Mox Diamond
- Forbid
- Foil
- Seismic Assault

[joemauer]

Well we're completely discounting the cards primary purpose. You will never face land issues and you laugh at wasteland. Add to that the thinning effect of 2.5%x3x#oftriggers is just gravy. You don't actually need scroll rack to see that, a simple Brainstorm should reveal more juice.

There are a number of older cards that are positively impacted by Land Tax, not just Scroll Rack.

- Brainstorm
- Top
- Ivory Tower
- Scroll Rack
- Mox Diamond
- Forbid
- Foil
- Seismic Assault

Foil and Seismic Assault are actually bad with Land Tax. That is overly apparent correct?

[nedleeds]

Foil and Seismic Assault are actually bad with Land Tax. That is overly apparent correct?

Eh, if I have a diamond and a couple of mountains and seismic assault out ... seems like a pretty daunting problem for man based decks.

Chucking taxed Islands with Foil seems like better Force of Will. The blue card gets discarded, not exiled. No payment of 1 life.

Again, you don't have to tax every turn, just taxing twice is a big boost for a control deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

Eh, if I have a diamond and a couple of mountains and seismic assault out ... seems like a pretty daunting problem for man based decks.
You know what's even better than Land Tax with Seismic Assault?

Life from the Loam.

And that deck isn't even that good right now!

[nedleeds]

You know what's even better than Land Tax with Seismic Assault?

Life from the Loam.

And that deck isn't even that good right now!

Don't I have to cast that every turn? Don't I need to have land in my yard? How can life from the loam help me if I'm land screwed already? Isn't it green?

Your snideness is noted, but it's not a strictly better comparison. They are different cards.

[Tammit67]

Don't I have to cast that every turn? Don't I need to have land in my yard? How can life from the loam help me if I'm land screwed already? Isn't it green?


1G a turn is worth a) Not running white and running green instead b) Grabbing wastelands and fetches instead of basics.

Decks that run loam/tax have a ton of lands naturally, so if you are land screwed you probably should have just mulliganed. Else, dredging loam then casting it can get you lands pretty easily, yes?

I love loam.

[Aggro_zombies]

Don't I have to cast that every turn? Don't I need to have land in my yard? How can life from the loam help me if I'm land screwed already? Isn't it green?

Your snideness is noted, but it's not a strictly better comparison. They are different cards.
I was pointing this out as a roundabout way to say that the ability to power Seismic Assault already exists in the form of a better card, and that those two cards in conjunction with each other are only marginally playable because of the constraints they place on deck construction. Since that's the case, Tax-Assault is bad.

I mean, do you really want to be the guy who's trying to hit WRRR in a deck with 6-10 basics in it? Particularly if you dip into green for Loam so that you can consistently activate Assault. RRR is straining enough in Aggro Loam, a deck that can run as many nonbasics and fetches as it wants, on top of having Mox Diamonds.

[nedleeds]

They are different cards. Seismic Assault was a reach in my list of shit that gets better though, point taken.

[GGoober]

Well we're completely discounting the cards primary purpose. You will never face land issues and you laugh at wasteland. Add to that the thinning effect of 2.5%x3x#oftriggers is just gravy. You don't actually need scroll rack to see that, a simple Brainstorm should reveal more juice.

There are a number of older cards that are positively impacted by Land Tax, not just Scroll Rack.

- Brainstorm
- Top
- Ivory Tower
- Scroll Rack
- Mox Diamond
- Forbid
- Foil
- Seismic Assault

Forbid + Tax = good old times!

Too bad it comes online on turn 3 (turn 4/5 against Daze/Pierce)

[nedleeds]

Forbid + Tax = good old times!

Too bad it comes online on turn 3 (turn 4/5 against Daze/Pierce)

Yeah ... I'm just pointing out some cards that certainly made some gains, whether they outstrip the format staples is up for everyone to decide (and for deck copiers to copy). My list certainly isn't comprehensive, there are some cards lurking around that haven't gotten much press (*cough* Scorched Earth *cough*) but could pop up in decks, in wish boards, etc..

[mishrazz]

I agree with a couple of the other posts that mentioned Land Tax being a nice addition to some kind of white geddon/stax deck, or a BW control deck with smallpox and Lilliana. The only Legacy deck i own and would consider trying a Land tax ATM is in my counterTop Thoper deck. I have played Enchantress for a couple of years now and can't see how Land tax would speed things up in a better way than exploration growth/sprawl already does. Enchantress needs an Ensnaring Bridge enchantment or a cheaper city of solitude.

[(nameless one)]

I agree with a couple of the other posts that mentioned Land Tax being a nice addition to some kind of white geddon/stax deck, or a BW control deck with smallpox and Lilliana. The only Legacy deck i own and would consider trying a Land tax ATM is in my counterTop Thoper deck. I have played Enchantress for a couple of years now and can't see how Land tax would speed things up in a better way than exploration growth/sprawl already does. Enchantress needs an Ensnaring Bridge enchantment or a cheaper city of solitude.

What about Solitary Confinement? Land Tax can somehow feed it too.