Challenge Week #1 Black Vise

[Moondancerbb]

So a little primer we are talking about the Banned Restricted List and what might be within power Levels To unban in September.

Most Likely Suspects for potential unbannings

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
(Removed Gush)
Hermit Druid
Library of Alexandria
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Tolarian Academy(Added)
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon

If anyone feels like there is a card i missed that is truly possible to come off the ban list present an argument and i can add it to rotation. So starting in alphabetical order With black vise. Why is this on the ban list? Is there an arch type around it or does it just go in every deck as a 4 of cause its never really that bad to have.

My First thoughts to try and break this card are a burn list like this.

Creatures [7]
3 Keldon Marauders
4 Goblin Guide

Instants [12]
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress

Sorceries [16]
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt



Enchantments [2]
2 Sulfuric Vortex

Artifacts [4]
4 Black Vise

Lands [19]
2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain


Interested in seeing other Decks focused around it or taken to insane levels with it.

[caiomarcos]

browbeat? its like take dmg or take dmg

Maybe a kill for Enchantress with Words of Winds. Bounce everything, drop 3x Black Vise, pass.
The biggest disadvantage of WoWind against WoWar is that WoWinds is not a finisher. Black Vise would fit as one without tampering with the deck or changing its strategy of bouncing everything, and could be fetched with Enlightened Tutor, a staple of Enchatress decks.

[majikal]

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique

4x Black Vise
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
3x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
4x Vapor Snag
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder

4x Wasteland
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
12x Island

[Shawon]

browbeat? its like take dmg or take dmg

Maybe a kill for Enchantress with Words of Winds. Bounce everything, drop 3x Black Vise, pass.
The biggest disadvantage of WoWind against WoWar is that WoWinds is not a finisher. Black Vise would fit as one without tampering with the deck or changing its strategy of bouncing everything, and could be fetched with Enlightened Tutor, a staple of Enchatress decks.

When was the last time you saw a Burn deck that top 8'd run Browbeat? The card isn't played in (competitive) Burn for a reason. I'd rather add some artifacts (Great Furnace and SDT) and try to squeeze in Shrapnel Blast so that the deck can make some use out of a Vise should it be useless in the late game when both players are in topdeck mode. Might not work, but it's a better idea than running Browbeat.

How would Black Vise not tamper with Enchantress? It tampers with the deck simply by having no interaction with any of your enchantments or doesn't draw cards with an Enchantress effect in play. Adding Black Vise requires cutting Enchantments from the deck, just to play nice with Words of Wind. Enchantress doesn't need Black Vise, it needs Earthcraft, like last Wednesday.

My guess is that with Black Vise unbanned, the deck that would benefit the most would be Stasis. Stasis' problem as a deck (other than being completely boring to both play and play against) is that its ability to win in a reasonable time. It's not that hard to set-up a Stasis lock, it's just hard to win. Until Black Vise is unbanned, Stasis' only way of winning the draw is decking the opponent which isn't reliable for reasons already mentioned, and accidental roadblocks such as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. However, with Black Vise, the Stasis deck can problem draw into multiple Black Vise and reliably resolve them and make short work of the opponent.

[Richard Cheese]

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique

4x Black Vise
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
3x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
4x Vapor Snag
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder

4x Wasteland
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
12x Island

Needs more Remand. Or should we get real old school and go Arcane Denial?

[DarkAkuma]

My random deck idea for it is based slightly off a old stunt deck I tried developing for my fun, but opponents lack of fun.

I slammed this list together in just a few seconds, so its probably horrible. But the idea is to deny and slow down the opponent as much as possible while 1 or more vices are in play.

4 Black Vise
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crack the Earth
4 Raze
4 Pardic Miner
4 Chrome Mox
4 Root Maze
4 Sudden Impact
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Land Grant
1 Forest
1 Mountain


I could probably come up with something better given some time to think about it. But this at least is a somewhat outside the box idea. (the old deck of mine I somewhat based it off of included Solfatara and Turf Wound in a build similar to a staxless stax deck.)

[caiomarcos]

When was the last time you saw a Burn deck that top 8'd run Browbeat? The card isn't played in (competitive) Burn for a reason. I'd rather add some artifacts (Great Furnace and SDT) and try to squeeze in Shrapnel Blast so that the deck can make some use out of a Vise should it be useless in the late game when both players are in topdeck mode. Might not work, but it's a better idea than running Browbeat.

How would Black Vise not tamper with Enchantress? It tampers with the deck simply by having no interaction with any of your enchantments or doesn't draw cards with an Enchantress effect in play. Adding Black Vise requires cutting Enchantments from the deck, just to play nice with Words of Wind. Enchantress doesn't need Black Vise, it needs Earthcraft[cards], like last Wednesday.

My guess is that with Black Vise unbanned, the deck that would benefit the most would be [cards]Stasis. Stasis' problem as a deck (other than being completely boring to both play and play against) is that its ability to win in a reasonable time. It's not that hard to set-up a Stasis lock, it's just hard to win. Until Black Vise is unbanned, Stasis' only way of winning the draw is decking the opponent which isn't reliable for reasons already mentioned, and accidental roadblocks such as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. However, with Black Vise, the Stasis deck can problem draw into multiple Black Vise and reliably resolve them and make short work of the opponent.

Cool down, it was just some brainstorming from the top of my head.

I wouldn't dismiss blue enchantress with Black Vise kill. It is not just to play nice with WoWind, but to actually make it deadly and, maybe, finally better than the red version, where the only real advantage is the WoWar kill. It tampers with the deck just as much as other stuff people play/played like Emrakul and Moxen, but slightly better because you can play it any time during the game and eventually it becomes relevant (killing the opponent), where Mox is only good in the first turn and Emrakul is only good... well, never. I'm all against non-enchantments in Enchantress, only Replenish is fine with me, even E. Tutor I have my doubts, but who knows right? It might work... In my opinion it would have better chances to succeed than Stasis. Something like 6% against 2% :D

[ReinVos]

4 Black Vise
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Remand
3 Force of Will

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Mountain

[sdematt]

I'd at least like some acknowledgment in the first post, considering I started the original thing in 2010. We could just merge this into the larger thread, to be honest.

-Matt

[Meekrab]

Gush is 2/3rds of an Ancestral Recall that produces mana. It's as likely to be unbanned as Demonic Tutor.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Gush is 2/3rds of an Ancestral Recall that produces mana. It's as likely to be unbanned as Demonic Tutor.

This. Plus it's basically like +2 or +3 Storm count for essentially free.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Let's be real here, Frantic Search is 100 kinds of broken.

[nedleeds]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/be/81.jpg

These are the droids you're looking for.

[dontbiteitholmes]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/be/81.jpg

These are the droids you're looking for.

I was waiting for that, can't believe it took almost a whole page.

[caiomarcos]

I was waiting for that, can't believe it took almost a whole page.

Actually it took only three replies.

[Aggro_zombies]

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique

4x Black Vise
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
3x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
4x Vapor Snag
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder

4x Wasteland
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
12x Island
To be honest, this shell seems like the best. I doubt Stasis is actually competitive anymore regardless of whether it has access to Black Vise; any Stasis deck with Vise you could build would probably just win more games as a U/x tempo deck without the Stases.

That said, tempo decks don't exactly need more help.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Stasis. That is all.

[Gheizen64]

Vise was the most tested card in the other topic, mostly because a lot of people considered it to be the most broken thing since lolwhat while a lot of others considered it useless. See my last list and my consideration of the cards and of all the playtest i did about it. I'm not going over it again. Vise sucks in burn variants.

Also no Academy considered but Gush? Gush is retarded and go anywhere, Academy is a powerful card that at least has some serious design constriction with no jewelry around.

EDIT: a link to the original topic wouldn't be bad, either.

[GoblinSettler]

My list would start like this:

4x Black Vise
4x Tangle Wire
...

Not sure where it would go from there. But I would be pretty pleased to be casting Vise.

[Gheizen64]

My list would start like this:

4x Black Vise
4x Tangle Wire
...

Not sure where it would go from there. But I would be pretty pleased to be casting Vise.

And i'd be pleased to play against that.

[GoblinSettler]

And i'd be pleased to play against that.

That bad?
:laugh:

[Gheizen64]

That bad?
:laugh:

As i said extensively before, i think Stasis is the only shell where Vise could be good. Stasis isn't a bad deck, but you can't expect to actually win 2 games within 50 minute, especially after your opponent realize you're playing stasis and goes for the draw.

Also stasis play pretty badly against SnT and reanimator decks, as they fundamentally don't need an untap phase.

[Aernil]

Id say between Spell Pierce, Force and Daze Stasis with Root Maze and Crop rotation-> Forsaken city is not THAT bad, as Black Vise would actually give it a (more or less) free clock.

[Gheizen64]

4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
3 Muddle the Mixture
3 Daze
2 Thwart
4 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Ensnare
3 Root Maze
4 Stasis
4 Black Vise
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 Flooded Grove
3 Forsaken City
8 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Best list i came up with in the other topic probably.

EDIT: Ebony Owl Netsuke is actually a viable alternative to vise in a stasis deck. Back when MM was legal, Netsuke was actually the better card since it dodged the most played counter of the format.

[Aernil]

I'd do something like

4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Ponder
4 Daze
2 Thwart
4 Force of Will
3 Root Maze
4 Stasis
4 Black Vise
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Jace TMS
4 Impulse

4 Forsaken City
4 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


(Also just thrown together in 5 min)

[LOurs]

in a stasis/blackvise build, remand could be interesting
also devastation tide sounds like an interesting option to play at opponent end of turn to bounce stasis and to fill opponent hand

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
3 Muddle the Mixture
3 Daze
2 Thwart
4 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Ensnare
3 Root Maze
4 Stasis
4 Black Vise
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 Flooded Grove
3 Forsaken City
8 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Best list i came up with in the other topic probably.

EDIT: Ebony Owl Netsuke is actually a viable alternative to vise in a stasis deck. Back when MM was legal, Netsuke was actually the better card since it dodged the most played counter of the format.

iirc the last time this came up I got Godzilla to test against a Stasis list with Vise somehow, we concluded that the deck was miserable and shouldn't be allowed to exist, and then MM was spoiled and we were all "lulz safe to unban now."

But yeah no, Stasis is a miserable deck. Make Mike T happy though.

[Aernil]

I think we are getting slightly off-topic here.

Another try at making use of Vise:


4 Ancient tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland
8 Island

4 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Jace TMS

4 Trinisphere
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Propaganda
4 Winter Orb
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Black Vise
4 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

[kiblast]

Most Likely Suspects for potential unbannings

...
Frantic Search
Gush
...


Gush, and Frantic Search potentially unbanned?

While I'm ok with more or less all the other cards, except probably Hermit Druid which is a bit unsafe to ban, I'd consider healthier for the format even the unban of Mana Drain rather than the unban of Frantic Search and/or Gush.

[Aernil]

I'd like to see Tolarian Academy unbanned.
I tested it a bit, and it isn't much more broken than Land Tax, Grim Monolith or Island.

[Gheizen64]

Yeah remove that Gush, it does not power up any new deck, it doesn't have interesting deckbuilding applications (every deck can play it, it benefit every deck) and neither an interesting effect on the format (MM for example COULD have pushed decks with more varied CmC costs, while it actually didn't, but whatever). Add Academy in it, a deckbuilder wet dream.

[Gheizen64]

I'd like to see Tolarian Academy unbanned.
I tested it a bit, and it isn't much more broken than Land Tax, Grim Monolith or Island.

? Island is pretty broken yo. Are u arguing that someway Island is actually a fair card? :eyebrow:

[Aernil]

It also does not much on its own.
But it is immune to Wasteland!:laugh:

Seriously, the only existing decks I can think of that would generate absurd amounts of mana from Academy is Affinity (which can't do anything at all with that kind of mana) and MUD (which doesn't produce those amounts fast enough).
And I really doubt that manaartifacts+academy+mind over matter + draw X is that good.

@ Vise:
It seems best in any kind of Prison deck, as any other deck can empty their hand pretty fast.
Played on turn 1 its not really that much worse than a goblin guide or Delver (though not as easy to remove).

@Mindtwist
Except for NicFit and maybe DemonStompy I can't imagine ANY deck playing that at all.

[Gheizen64]

It also does not much on its own.
But it is immune to Wasteland!:laugh:

Seriously, the only existing decks I can think of that would generate absurd amounts of mana from Academy is Affinity (which can't do anything at all with that kind of mana) and MUD (which doesn't produce those amounts fast enough).
And I really doubt that manaartifacts+academy+mind over matter + draw X is that good.

@ Vise:
It seems best in any kind of Prison deck, as any other deck can empty their hand pretty fast.
Played on turn 1 its not really that much worse than a goblin guide or Delver (though not as easy to remove).

Problem is that past T1 is way, way worse than delver or Guide. And it's worse on the draw too.

EDIT: worse against mulligan too

[Aernil]

Well, I am all for trimming the list a bit.
They really should unban Vise and Library of Alexandria, reprint both of them and see what happens^^

[joemauer]

I'd like to see Tolarian Academy unbanned.
I tested it a bit, and it isn't much more broken than Land Tax, Grim Monolith or Island.

I speculate that Island might be banned for the next B/R announcement.

[Moondancerbb]

Removed Gush, Since its a pretty good consensus that it is too good just by reading the card. Added Academy which i missed in my initial post. The reason i started a new thread about this is because its to focus on one card not any card on the banned list.

The thread was definitely inspired by the other thread, I am interested to see how well it does do in tempo based decks like u/r delver, or rug delver. Some game reports vs current meta would be awesome i hopefully will have some time to play some games with a vise deck.

Just to reiterate we are looking to see what cards can come off the ban list in the current environment one at a time So the list posted is just the potential not the take them all off at once or even multiple off at once.

[Aernil]

What I could come up for Academy

4 Tolarian Academy
4 Ancient tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel

4 Master of Aetherium
4 Esperzoa
4 Etched CHampion
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Vault Skirge

4 Stroke of Genius
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Opal

Or a dedicated list:

4 Ancient tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Tolarian Academy
4 Tolaria West
4 seat of the synod
4 Island

4 Mox Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Voltaic Key

4 Stroke of Genius
4 Braingeysir
4 Mind Spring


both lists not particularly impressive (though done in 5 minutes)

[LOurs]

imo, affinity is not really a good shell for academy. Sure the land will provide mana, but it is pretty useless with the exception of stroke of genius which sounds as a terrible card in an aggro deck (Consecrated Sphinx seems better, as much as a lot of high cmc u cards).

If I had to think about academy.dec, I'd go in the bridgewalker stax direction or MUD. Affinity seems just to work well without it and doesnt huge amount of mana.

[Aernil]

imo, affinity is not really a good shell for academy. Sure the land will provide mana, but it is pretty useless with the exception of stroke of genius which sounds as a terrible card in an aggro deck (Consecrated Sphinx seems better, as much as a lot of high cmc u cards).

If I had to think about academy.dec, I'd go in the bridgewalker stax direction or MUD. Affinity seems just to work well without it and doesnt huge amount of mana.


Seriously, the only existing decks I can think of that would generate absurd amounts of mana from Academy is Affinity (which can't do anything at all with that kind of mana) and MUD (which doesn't produce those amounts fast enough).
And I really doubt that manaartifacts+academy+mind over matter + draw X is that good.


Exactly what I was saying.
Though MUD cant really proft from Academy THAT much.
It lacks the low costing artifacts to power an early big academy.
(Though you could get some really nice plays like Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Top, Academy, 3Sphere)

[LOurs]

Exactly what I was saying.
Though MUD cant really proft from Academy THAT much.
It lacks the low costing artifacts to power an early big academy.
(Though you could get some really nice plays like Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Top, Academy, 3Sphere)

so consider my post as a +1 then

there is probably something to storm with timespiral or other untap effect a la cloud of faeries/snap. the build requirement remaining mox/sensi/artifact land or to keep a reasonnable amount of artifact.

edit :
Exactly what I was saying.
Though MUD cant really proft from Academy THAT much.
well, there are still staff of domination or even blightsteel to use the additional mana

[Aernil]

But you cant get the mana for Colossus much faster than the mana (from Cities/Tombs) for Lodestone or Wurmcoil Engine.

And regarding storming:
What would it do better than Hightide does?

[xfxf]

At the risk of derailing the thread towards Academy I'd like to say that, a combo deck which relies on Academy would be a glass canon falling apart to a Wasteland.

[Moondancerbb]

Been thinking Chain of Vapor with Black vise is probably a good fit, You bounce their permenant and if they sac a land to bounce your vise your still ahead in the exchange if you do it on their turn you just untap play your vise and they are down two permenants.

[LOurs]

But you cant get the mana for Colossus much faster than the mana (from Cities/Tombs) for Lodestone or Wurmcoil Engine.


colossus is probably a bad example indeed. Staff is still solid though.



And regarding storming:
What would it do better than Hightide does?

earlier winning turn ?
1 academy+1 island+2 artifacts (or academy + 3 artifacts) required to start seems faster to me. however needs to be test, i'm just brainstorming at this point.

[Aernil]

How about

4 Tolarian Academy
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Timespiral
4 Meditate
3 Blue Suns Zenith
4 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Brain Freeze


T1: Mox Opal, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Top, tap academy, crop rotation for academy, Timespiral

[Damoxx]

See #4 as to why Academy will NEVER be unbanned in Legacy.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mf184

In an effort to stay on track. I think Stasis would be the way to go, that or Turbofog. :cool:

[Aernil]

See #4 as to why Academy will NEVER be unbanned in Legacy.
You are aware that Mana Vault, Vampiric Tutor and Windfall are banned?
What's left of the deck really isn't as dangerous as it was.

[Admiral_Arzar]

On the original topic:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Black Vise
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast

21 Mountain

Black Vise is just bolt #17-20 here, and could be better if you're on the play or your opponent is playing a slow deck. Nothing fancy, I think Vise just makes burn a bit better (which is fine IMO as it keeps players on their toes).

[Aernil]

How about adding Howling Mine effects?
Seems bad, but you actually pretty much always profit more from them than your opponent.
Something like:

4 Great Furnace
14 Mountain

4 Howling Mine
4 Black Vise

4 Shrapnell Blast
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress

[joemauer]

On the original topic:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Black Vise
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast

21 Mountain

Black Vise is just bolt #17-20 here, and could be better if you're on the play or your opponent is playing a slow deck. Nothing fancy, I think Vise just makes burn a bit better (which is fine IMO as it keeps players on their toes).

Add Shrapnel Blast and some artifact lands. Perhaps take out PoP because a certain 5 damage is better than a possible 4-6.

I would think Black Vise would do good in a deck with Reforge the Soul or Trinisphere. Haven't thought up a brew yet though.

[RaZe]

Here's a starting Prison list.


11 Island
11 Plains
04 Chrome Mox

04 Black Vise
03 Back to Basics
04 Sphere of Resistance
04 Ghostly Prison
03 Supression Field

04 Trinket Mage
04 Phyrexian Revoker

04 Armageddon

03 Daze

02 Engineered Explosives

[Admiral_Arzar]

Add Shrapnel Blast and some artifact lands. Perhaps take out PoP because a certain 5 damage is better than a possible 4-6.

I would think Black Vise would do good in a deck with Reforge the Soul or Trinisphere. Haven't thought up a brew yet though.

While I love Shrapnel Blast, I don't think it's worth destabilizing the manabase and making both Fireblast and Price of Progress worse. If you need additional damage, drop something for Flame Rift (but you shouldn't, this list is already super damage efficient).

EDIT: As for Academy, I don't think there's enough broken fast mana in Legacy for it to break the format (no Vault, Crypt, or Sol Ring really puts a damper on things) but I could be wrong. Anyways, it's not the kind of card they would unban because of the combo-winter stigma associated with it.

[Gheizen64]

While I love Shrapnel Blast, I don't think it's worth destabilizing the manabase and making both Fireblast and Price of Progress worse. If you need additional damage, drop something for Flame Rift (but you shouldn't, this list is already super damage efficient).

EDIT: As for Academy, I don't think there's enough broken fast mana in Legacy for it to break the format (no Vault, Crypt, or Sol Ring really puts a damper on things) but I could be wrong. Anyways, it's not the kind of card they would unban because of the combo-winter stigma associated with it.

Actually, there's sort of a Sol ring. Candelabra. But don't tell anyone.

[nedleeds]

4 Stasis
4 Black Vise
4 Ensnare
4 Daze
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Howling Mine
12 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Brainstorm
1 Thwart

[Humphrey]

Ebony Owl Netsuke

[Shawon]

Tamiyo's Emblem + Foil = I COUNTER EVERYTHING... FOR FREE!!!!!

20 [ZEN] Island (3a)
1 [CFX] Reliquary Tower
4 [PS] Forsaken City
1 [AVR] Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [RAV] Muddle the Mixture
2 [PLC] Frozen AEther
2 [NE] Daze
4 [U] Black Vise
4 [5E] Stasis
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [M10] Howling Mine
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [PY] Foil

[Darkenslight]

Black Vise

8 Swamp
4 Mountain
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire

4 Sinkhole
4 Blight
4 Black Vise
4 Rancid Earth
4 Pillage

4 Fulminator Mage
4 Duress
4 Ebony Owl Netsuke
4 Dark Confidant

Should be a decent starting point. Blight could be changed with Rain of Tears or Stone Rain. (EDIT: or Roiling Terrain for added damage.

[Cero]

Both just rough piles, but here we go:

@Black Vise (maybe even more protection would be needed for the vise):

4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
8 Fetches
2 Plains
2 Island

4 Black Vise
4 Orim's Chant
4 Silence
4 Ethersworn Canonis
4 Arcane Laboratory
4 Meddling Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
4 Boomerang
4 Enlightened Tutor


@Tolarian Academy (vulnerable as hell, but fast)

4 Tolarian Academy
4 Tropical Island
4 Fetches

4 Crop Rotation
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox

4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
3 Shared Discovery
2 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Twiddle
4 Dream's Grip
2 Braingeyser
1 Brain Freeze

[nedleeds]

Both just rough piles, but here we go:



@Tolarian Academy

4 Tolarian Academy
4 Tropical Island
4 Fetches
4 Crop Rotation
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
3 Shared Discovery
2 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Twiddle
4 Dream's Grip
2 Braingeyser
1 Brain Freeze

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ex/40.jpg

I think also Braingeyser has outlived it's life.

[Koby]

I think also Braingeyser has outlived it's life.

You're right. That's why there's Prosperity.

[Cero]

Thats why I said rough piles :smile:
A 2of Mind Over Matter may be good, but not sure about Prosperity. ProsBloom showed that giving answers to the oponent before killing him is a bad idea (you should draw more cards than him with Shared Discoveries)