Goblin Welder, Baleful Strix, Thopter Foundry, Sword of the Meek

[alphastryk]

Title says it all. These card are all very reasonable, and work well together. Welder-Strix has been played to some success in Vintage, and they work pretty well in Legacy too.

Strix also works well with Sword of the Meek & Thopter Foundry - for example, you can weld out sword for strix, and end up with both in play and draw a card. Add a Thopter Foundry, and you can sac strix to make a thopter, weld sword into strix and be up a card, a life, and a thopter.

I decided to try to work this into the shell of the old Esper Tezzeret / Shot in the Dark decks, using red instead of white. Losing enlightened tutor is tough, but welder + Strix is absurd, possibly enough to make up for it.

Tentative list (probably my third draft or so, jammed a few games against Maverick and Thresh to find out how well the deck works).


4 Ponder
3 Brainstorm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Meekstone
4 Goblin Welder
1 Darkblast

4 Baleful Strix
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Sword of the Meek

2 Trinket Mage

3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will

3 Mox Opal
2 Chrome Mox
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Great Furnace
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Desolate Lighthouse


sb:
2 Perish
1 Firespout
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Cabal Therapy


This is a rough draft still, but against non-combo, the deck feel very strong, and can rapidly overload the board. Force of will and sideboard cards may not be enough to turn around the combo matches though.

Things I am also considering:

Painter + Grindstone
Artificer's Intuition

Any input is appreciated.

[Moondancerbb]

I think this can be really powerful but a few changes i might try out with your list are to go up to 4 brainstorms and put darkblast in the board. Switch out the Ponders for Faithless looting.

Drop a mox not sure which type and desolate lighthouse for two more scalding tarn.

Fitting a Chalice of the void in the main and some number in the side also seems good

[alphastryk]

I've tried Looting, and it was not as good as I'd hoped, but certainly worth trying. The 4th Brainstorm was a recent cut. Right now we do not have enough shuffles to get value out of it, and Ponder sees more cards.

The weakest 2 maindeck cards are definitely the Lighthouse and the Darkblast, and adding another fetch would help make branstorm better.

I hate to drop a mox, as you are quite reliant on them to power out your threats. Chrome Mox is typically the harder to use, if you do choose to go that route.

[Moondancerbb]

To me the problem with chrome mox stems from the only things you can remove to it are basically your best cards since its non artifact non land.

[metalhead]

No love for Thirst for Knowledge? And being as your three colors it seems like Mox Diamond would be better than Chrome Mox. Your land count is somewhat low for Diamond. But being able to produce any Color seems like it would help alot.

[whienot]

Seems that Intuition should be there in some quantity. Intuition is good on its own and is incredible value with an active Welder. Also pairs nicely with the singleton Darkblast.

There's an argument for Ensnaring Bridge over Meekstone, but that depends on how valuable you need your Trinket Magi to be.

[alphastryk]

I don't think you need Mox Diamond, as Mox Opal also produces any color, and you are less 3-color than it might initially look. This is a UB deck splashing Goblin Welder, so you only need red for that one spell.

Chrome Mox does have a high cost, but you often need the artifact in play more than the card in your hand. Other than cantrips, your imprintable cards are either slow, or situational. From playing similar decks, I have learned to worry less about imprinting cards like Jace and Tezzeret, as you see enough cards in most games that you will find what you need.

I don't feel the need for a slow draw spell like Thirst for Knowledge, as strix allows you to gain a ton of incremental advantage.

Intuition is very powerful, and worth looking into. Not sure what to shave to fit one or 2 in, as the list is pretty tight right now.

If you ever get active Welder / Strix, you always have 5+ cards in hand, making bridge much worse against decks like Thresh and Maverick.

[UnsungHero]

+1 Academy Ruins, -1 Desolate Lighthouse

Ruins is too good not to run in here.

[alphastryk]

I actually had Academy Ruins in my initial list and never used it, so I figured I'd give the lighthouse a try. Ruins may be correct, but we may not even want a colorless land, as our spells are fairly color-intense.

[HPB_Eggo]

At least IMO, you want to add Intuition over Trinket Mage, cut the package for it, and add Academy Ruins.

Switching the around lets you toy around with Intuition piles, instead, which seems much better when you can tutor up, for instance, triple Sword of the Meek with Strix in hand.

Past that, with Intuition you can add some other very solid Welder cards and go for Looting over some number of Ponder or Brainstorm. The most impressive Welder card ever is definitely Wurmcoil Engine, so adding one main and two in the SB seems like it would be excellent in some matches.

Only other big thing I can see is that you probably want the Grindstone combo in the SB, as it is a faster win and an essentially guaranteed victory playing against certain decks, even in games two and three.

[alphastryk]

Tentative Intuition desklist:


4 Goblin Welder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Darkblast
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize

4 Baleful Strix
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Sword of the Meek

3 Intuition

3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Wurmcoil Engine

3 Mox Opal
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Great Furnace
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Polluted Delta
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mountain
1 Chrome Mox


I switched the Cabal Therapies main, as Faithless Looting and Intuition make it much better than Force of Will. I'm a little worried about creature matchups right now without a lot of removal, but maybe Thopter-Sword + Strix as removal does enough.

[HPB_Eggo]

My own take is similar, although I have yet to have the time to test it...

4 Goblin Welder
4 Baleful Strix
3 Wurmcoil Engine

3 Thopter Foundry
3 Sword of the Meek

4 Faithless Looting
4 Rush of Knowledge
3 Intuition
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Cabal Therapy

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Mox Opal
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins

Seems like a house against fair decks, kind of like Maverick. Not sure how well it will do against the best in that category, though. It certainly has Maverick's 'Answer this or lose' strategy down. Seems like it will be fairly consistent, too, with all the solid CA.

As for combo, I think it is basically a loss pre-board. For Storm, multiple Therapies and gaining life from Foundry might do it. Same for Sneak Show or Reanimator. Certainly not enough consistency to win out regularly, though.

When I test, I suspect it will be found that the SB needs 2 Grindstone and Painter's Servant for fair decks and literally every other slot to have a chance against combo and dredge. Will have to wait and see, though.

EDIT: Other big thing for testing is the usefulness of Therapy over some sort of counter, other discard, or some sort of permanent artifact hate, a la pitying needle or something of the sort.

[John Cox]

if you running 15'ish blue cards force of will could fit in there.

[HPB_Eggo]

if you running 15'ish blue cards force of will could fit in there.

Certainly. It's more a question of whether it is better than Therapy. I am actually inclined to believe Therapy is stronger here, as we are generally okay with saccing guys and our blue sources are all essential methods of generating card advantage.

I would probably put Spell Pierce in over Force if I moved from discard to counters in the main, but testing will at least shed some lout on what works and what does not.

All that being said, Force would definitely be among my top choices for the SB, as it is the only hard counter we can reasonably run in the deck, given the current mana base.

[Nihil Credo]

Played a handful of games with a list not too different from OP's (Thirst for Knowledge over Ponder, also 4 Brainstorm - srsly wtf - maindecking Wurmcoils and Spell Pierces over some artifacts and Mages). Real fun deck. Thoughts:

Thopter/Sword don't need to be a 4/3, even without ETutor. The Strixes buy you a ton of time, and between TfK, Top and Tez there's enough dig that you can assemble the combo by the time you have enough mana to profit from it. Also there's far too many ways your opponent may try to shut that plan out, so it can't be relied upon too much.

TfK works really well (note that I ran 22 mana sources and 3 Tops though), can't imagine playing without it, too often it was the only thing that turned on Welder. I am actually considering supplementing it with 1-2 Faithless Lootings somewhere. Intuition might also work but I didn't test it; I expect it would be more suited to a more Welder-invested build with Lightning Greaves and the like.

Spell Pierce was kinda bad. Outside of combo stuff, the thing I really wanted to counter with it was removal, and it was played with :2: open more often than not. I'd play Turn Aside or some such except that countering the combo stuff was actually quite life-saving. Not sure where to go, think only answer is to suck it up, play Counterspell and accept keeping UU open after dropping Welder. Or Counterbalance, talk about it later.

Maindeck Wurmcoil is great. Daze is at an all-time low so tapping out for it isn't really as dangerous as it was, and takes over games like few things. Welder of course makes it insane, although more as StP bait/protection than to weld it in and out for a quick kill. On the other side, bringing in anything that outright can't be hardcast (Sundering Titan, Platinum Emperion) seems not worth it, protecting Welder in those matchups is hard.

JMS is kinda crap, always wished it to be another Tez or pitched it. Might try actually running Jace Beleren instead, the list is short on 3-drops and they still protect from enemy JMS. Most likely will just cut it.

The board needs a way to deal with red decks (mostly U/G/R decks). I tried Counterbalance which worked really well, may even try maindecking it, and Spellskite which was underwhelming, too vulnerable to the same things everything else is.

On a whim I also put a pair of Crosis Charms in the board, mainly meant for Stoneblade and Sneak&Show both of which might bring in all sorts of unexpected hate. Surprisingly good, at least against the former, didn't play against the latter after adding them. They're almost certainly not part of the optimal 75, but in the uncertainties of early playtesting they shine.

[klaus]

BigUp. Glad more people realize the power that Strix inherits.
My first approaches on the Source were more or less bashed.

Keep up the good work - will follow your findings.

[Blitzbold]

I've been intriqued by Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas for quite some time, and the printing of Baleful Strix added to this as well. Strix is a nice little card on his own which indeed buys a lot of time for an investment of just two mana.

Welder was a very strong card in Vintage and was abused there to hell nearly a decade ago, but he was never able to settle himself in Legacy. This probably is because of the amount of targeted removal running rampant here. He might be to cute in this deck as well, but we'll see.

I guess another viable approach for this deck is to take a look at the existing decks of this type and trying to fit as many Strixes (right plural form?) and Welder as possible without weakening the original gameplan. Also, the current predominance of decks that are trying to cheat a game-ending fattie into play by round 2-4 (Reanimator, FreakShow) should be taken into account as those decks contain a lot of protection as well.

Another weakness might be the manabase in a format filled with Wastelands, but at least there are some playable Moxen and basic lands to help with this.

The decks listed on TC Decks labled "Tezzeret Control" are differing quite a bit, so when using my suggested approach we should settle on one of the different builds first. Nihil's findings seem to be very helpful here as well.

=> Tezzeret Control (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8458&iddeck=61637) by Douglas McKay -- quite aggroish, Jace TMS, Liliana OTV main, no Thopter Combo at all, no CB
=> Shot in the Dark (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8352&iddeck=60848) by Martin Bonneville -- 'traditional' E-Tutor-package, no Jace TMS, CB main
=> Shot in the Dark (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7707&iddeck=56060) by David Gearhart -- the 'original' build - E-Tutor-package including Humility and stuff, Jace TMS main, CB in the board

TC Decks isn't in action for too long, but on the other hand older decks wouldn't be too helpful anyway. As much as I like Humility in times where Griselbrand or Emrakul are frequently seen at the top tables, it might just be too slow against those decks (short of dropping it for your opponent's Show and Tell). Oblivion Ring seems to be a nice catch-all as well, but this would mean going 4-colored as well as either adding Enlightened Tutors or a multitude of O-Rings.

I think such a deck could work just fine, but we need to find solutions against Reanimator and FreakShow. Those are the matchups I am worried most when thinking about the current upper tier decks.

All in all I am interested in developing your approach as well. I am looking forward to reading more ideas and suggestions.

[alphastryk]

I've done some more testing, and I've gotten to the following list. We're less all in on the artifact, welder, etc. plan, and I think the deck is better overall. It is a lot more prepared for combo with Force, Pierce, and Clique. I've been playing it online (cockatrice) to decent success, although its definitely not a perfect list.

I cut down on the reliance on Thopter-Sword, and the mass of artifact mana to make the deck a bit more stable, but maybe that's not the right way to take the deck.

This is where I'm at right now:


4 Goblin Welder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Faithless Looting
4 Brainstorm
1 Darkblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ponder

4 Baleful Strix
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Snapcaster Mage

3 Intuition
1 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Force of Will

1 Wurmcoil Engine

2 Mox Opal
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Swamp


Sideboard:

3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Perish
1 Coffin Purge
1 Crush
1 Engineered Explosives

[unicoerner]

Hi,
i like the upper list, but i have 2 questions:
1) Do you get Opa active fast enough? It seems that most of the time you get him active on turn 3 or even later if you miss land drops, because of him.

2) Wouldn't 2 fatties be cool, because then every Intu will bring you some goodness with welder?

[Sloshthedark]

+4x Ensnaring Bridge

[alphastryk]

Hi,
i like the upper list, but i have 2 questions:
1) Do you get Opa active fast enough? It seems that most of the time you get him active on turn 3 or even later if you miss land drops, because of him.

2) Wouldn't 2 fatties be cool, because then every Intu will bring you some goodness with welder?

1) Opal is usually active by the time I play it. I would love to play a 5-color artifact land there, but it doesn't exist. The colored spells are pretty color-intensive, and the wrong color at the wrong time can really screw us up. There's a reason I'm down to just 2 copies.

2) I'm trying to be less reliant on active Welder than just have him be a powerfuil card, so I want to be able to realistically cast all of my spell, hence just the wurmcoil. If we really need the Wurmcoil in grave, you can intuit for the Looting as well.



+4x Ensnaring Bridge

Certainly a reasonable sideboard card to consider, but I don't think we can support it main with the amount of card draw we have, as it won't work against non-fatty creatures very well.

[Sloshthedark]

Certainly a reasonable sideboard card to consider, but I don't think we can support it main with the amount of card draw we have, as it won't work against non-fatty creatures very well.

Well i used to play Painter deck with this setup and it's incredibly strong with welder vs. any deck that kills you with creatures (and you are already dead to storm), as most decks cannot deal with it and if they can you weld it back in; you don't care at all - 1 card you draw is enough to let thopters through (if Tezzerret does hit the board), noble hierarch problem solved as well; therefore I think it's the no 1 strategy for the deck in the meta especially and best reason to play it.

[deadlock]

Hey, cool deck idea! I worked on a similiar concept, which tried to abuse Thoper Foundry and Tezzeret. Unlike you I used Transmute Artifact as a Tutor for both pieces + toolbox.
Transmute is insane with Thoper, as you can Transmute away a Sword of the Meek get the Thopters and start the combo by saccing any spare artifact (e.g. Artifact Land). I wanted to include Welder, but it put too much constraints on the mana base, therefore I kept it UB(w). Another reason was that I dont run any maindeck creatures to make there removal worthless, after boarding I had Confidant to bring.

[Nihil Credo]

Current list. Not going to write another wall of text yet, I've just highlighted the cards I currently feel are weaker with a *:


4 Baleful Strix
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Goblin Welder
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Chrome Mox *
1 Nihil Spellbomb *
3 Mox Opal
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Vault of Whispers
2 Great Furnace
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island *
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterbalance
1 Daze *
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Phyrexian Revoker *

SB: 2 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Crosis's Charm *
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void *
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 Dystopia
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge *


Dystopia is kinda filthy, although you need to be aggressive with it otherwise it's not going to chump through all those Noble Hierarchs in time. If it eats two creatures and keeps the rest in their owner's hand for a couple of turns that's usually more than enough.

Ensnaring Bridge is eeeehhh. Emptying your hand isn't that hard, the problem is that most decks can still do a lot of stuff even if they cannot attack. It's only really good against pure, non-burn aggro, of which there aren't many decks and those that are there are probably best answered in more straightforward ways.

[Tammit67]

I love your list Nihil

[Poron]

so many 1x and no Intuition?

doesn't make sense to me. Also, 1x Daze?

[Nihil Credo]

They're not conditional silver bullets, they're utility spells that are good against most decks, you just usually don't want to draw multiples. The Daze was a random fill-in for the 60th slot, and it has been pretty bad so it will not stay.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

So i was playing a version of Painter's Servant combo that sideboarded into Baleful Strix and was running dark confidants in the main deck. I found that all of these cards worked remarkably well together and I am very interested in further developments. One thing I would like to mention is that i have had some troubles up until this point with the surgical extractions that I am seeing everywhere in peoples sideboards, I would imagine this problem would be exacerbated by a deck that requires even more time with cards spent in the graveyard.

Let me know if anyone has found a good solution to this so far.

I would also like to stand up and defend spellskite, if you ever get a situation with an active welder and a spellskite the game feels pretty difficult to lose against deck that is not a combo trying to kill you instantly. I run them out of the board and found them to be amazing, though to be fair i was using them to protect painter grindstone.

[Poron]

I like the archtype and I've been playtesting it a bit..

We need a plan-B to protect the welder because anything kills it. Red-White-Black, any deck has 4-7 answears to it and G2 there are also Needles/Revoker as additional hate. Snapcaster Mage, just doubles the threaths

I was considering Meddling Mage to block StP, at least..

[raestlyn]

I haven't tested the deck, but wouldn't Lightning Greaves would be decent solution for Shroud? It also gives Haste. Although it doesn't protect against instant removal that your opponent can play response to the activation.

[Poron]

+
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Academy Ruins
3x Intuition

the deck, imho, can just improve

[GradStudentGuy]

Here is what I have been running recently.

//Creatures
4x Baleful Strix
3x Trinket Mage

//Planeswalkers
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

//Artifacts
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Staff of Domination
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Chrome Mox
1 Dimir Signet
1 Mox Opal

//Spells
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize

//Lands
1 Darksteel Citadel
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Seat of the Synod
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Vault of Whispers

//Sideboard
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Welding Jar
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Counterbalance
1 Relic of Progenitus

Having the pithing needle ,Engineered Explosives,and Staff of Domination solves a lot of the creature problems that ensnaring bridge misses. I swapped out brainstorms for preordain. There are just not enough shuffle effects to make the card good in this deck. It also works well with Tezzeret keeping bad cards away from the top of the library.

Like others have stated Jace is just sub par in this deck. I started with three and over a few days went to zero. Tezzeret Just provides better card drawing and a faster win condition. I would like to fit Liliana of the Veil main since my version is a little lacking when it comes down to win conditions. She does not clog up the four drop spot like jace and helps feed Ensnaring bridge while keeping your opponent low on cards. If her ultimate is ever achieved it should clear your opponents board well enough for your mages and strixs to slowly win the game.

I am not to keen at running a third color currently. This deck plays a ton of non basics and at heart it is a control deck. Sure the artifact mana is helps but too many games have just become losses when I tried splashing red just for welder.

[Amon Amarth]

Current list. Not going to write another wall of text yet, I've just highlighted the cards I currently feel are weaker with a *:


4 Baleful Strix
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Goblin Welder
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Chrome Mox *
1 Nihil Spellbomb *
3 Mox Opal
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Vault of Whispers
2 Great Furnace
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island *
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterbalance
1 Daze *
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Phyrexian Revoker *

SB: 2 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Crosis's Charm *
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void *
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 Dystopia
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge *


Dystopia is kinda filthy, although you need to be aggressive with it otherwise it's not going to chump through all those Noble Hierarchs in time. If it eats two creatures and keeps the rest in their owner's hand for a couple of turns that's usually more than enough.

Ensnaring Bridge is eeeehhh. Emptying your hand isn't that hard, the problem is that most decks can still do a lot of stuff even if they cannot attack. It's only really good against pure, non-burn aggro, of which there aren't many decks and those that are there are probably best answered in more straightforward ways.

I really like this list. I don't really like the Chrome Mox ether since all of your spells are very good. In regards to the other singletons, have you tested/considered Trinket Mage, Darkblast, Crucible of Worlds, Ratchet Bomb, Engineered Explosives, Counterspell or Pithing Needle?

I think your SB would need to be retooled to deal with the current influx of Tribal decks. I'd probably do something like this:

2 BEB
3 REB
1 Darkblast
2 Perish
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Counterbalance

This gives you a bunch of removal for the resurgent tribal decks without being too specific, like E. Plague. The leyline is too techy IMO and I'd rather jam another Crypt/Spellbomb. Bridge is good against Merfolk and has applications against other decks too but no one really plays much artifact removal so 2 seems fine. I haven't tested the Wurmcoil in the SB but it seems pretty beastly against Maverick. The Dystopia is fine in more aggressive decks but the life can, literally, add up and the can combo of Darkblast and Perish can really put the green decks in an awkward position. Seems like that would work better.

Has your list changed much in the past month? Also, how good has Welder been for you?

EDIT:

Tribal is super real now and you can't afford to ignore it.

This is my current board:

SB: 15
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Perish
1 Darkblast
3 Engineered Plague
2 Counterbalance
3 Red Elemental Blast

[AngryTroll]

I'd love to run one of the Welder lists, but with only four good targets for removal, do you ever get to activate the Welder? I've been trying a list more like Prosak's (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/24381-Esper-Midrange-And-Legacy-Tezzeret.html) with Baleful Strix, Trinket Mage, Tezzeret, and Jace. I cut the Temporal Masteries for 2 Vendilion Clique to help resolve and protect the Planewalkers and to increase the ways in which to interact with combo game one.

I'd really enjoy running Thirst for Knowledge and Goblin Welder, but I can't imagine actually being allowed to untap with the Welder.

[Rock Lee]

The fact that no one has mentioned SDT abuse yet hurts my soul for deckbuilders everywhere.

[Amon Amarth]

The fact that no one has mentioned SDT abuse yet hurts my soul for deckbuilders everywhere.

It's much worse than Welding in, say, Strix, Wurmcoil, a combo piece or Bridge/Spellbombs after board. Which is probably why no one mentioned it :P

[somethingdotdotdot]

He means that you can tap the sensei's top and have the ability go on the stack, the weld in a strix or something. That way you draw 2.

[catmint]

Love the idea and in the different directions the deck can go.

Thoughts to Nihils list, which I would like to try out:

- Is there maybe land count issue? Spinning top to find lands makes it difficult to curve out with powerful spells, so i see the risk of falling behind. Mox opal might often not be turned on soon enough?

- I would maybe split on Thirst for Knowledge/Trinket Mage 3/1 and get another Trinket mage in there somehow to play Pithing Needle instead of Revoker. Spellbombs are also much better.

- Aether spellbomb is neat against a delver and very good against reanimator/sneak attack. Tutoring it out turn 2-3 is of course weak, but often better than nothing. Anyone tried that out?

- Chalice as a tutor target or even instead of Counterbalance as a 4of could be a thing. I think it is better against RUG and maybe good enough versus combo...?

- In general I think it should be primarily a control/grindy deck with some good finishers and therefore should not have too many slots for combo/wincons. Reducing to 1 sword and 2 foundry and playing some transmute artifact sounds good to me. It is versatile with the silver bullets and Tezzeret, wurmcoil or welder/strix should finish the job alongside a "minimal" thopter sword right?

[metamet]

This archetype seems like a lot of fun. Anyone still using it?

I'm considering playing around with the following 61 cards:

4 Baleful Strix
4 Goblin Welder
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm

4 Shardless Agent
2 Intuition
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Tezzeret
4 Force of Will
1 Crucible of Worlds

3 Mox Opal
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
2 Seat of Synod
2 Vault of Whispers
2 Great Furnace
3 Poluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland

[SirTylerGalt]

Bump since there was some interested in this kind of deck in the Rules forum: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27044-Goblin-Welder-Baleful-Strix-Sword-of-the-Meek

Does Toxic Deluge make this deck more relevant? Grixis Control has always missed a good sweeper.

What about Bonfire of the Damned, in versions featuring Grim Monolith + Sensei's Divining Top? You can generate tons of mana with Welder + Monolith :)

I will post more thoughts later.

[Tylert]

Proeminence of DRS makes life hard for this deck.
Graveyard hate in general seems so good vs it.
If you don't play any removal (The list in entry and the last proposed list don't play any...) how will you win thru DRS?

Except that, i like this deck :)

[SirTylerGalt]

Proeminence of DRS makes life hard for this deck.
Graveyard hate in general seems so good vs it.
If you don't play any removal (The list in entry and the last proposed list don't play any...) how will you win thru DRS?

Except that, i like this deck :)

Actually, while DRS is annoying when you try to weld in a Baleful Strix / Wurmcoil Engine / Land, it does nothing against Welder + Top or Thopter + Sword. I feel like having Deathrite Shaman in the format actually makes Thopter / Sword better, since DRS decks play less graveyard hate, and DRS cannot remove a Sword of the Meek. Some decks play Surgical Extraction, but you can just answer that by keeping one mana open and saccing another artifact in response to the Surgical.

IMO, Thopter / Sword, Wurmcoil Engine, and Tezzeret don't seem that "durdly" to me.

I think the deck needs some amount of removal, like Engineered Explosives, Toxic Deluge, Bonfire of the Damned, or even Lightning Bolt. I hate playing Lightning Bolt in a control deck, but it's still one of our best answers to all the small utility creatures in the format, and it's also pretty good against Planeswalkers.


Another avenue worth exploring is a more Staxx version with Lodestone Golem, Tangle Wire, and even Prototype Portal. Prototype Portal lets you put one Sensei's Divining Top / Baleful Strix into play each turn for some great card advantage. It's also pretty cool with Tangle Wire or Artifact lands.

[Higgs]

I play Slaver in Vintage (Strix version) and often thought about converting it to Legacy. However in Vintage you can get a surprise kill in Vault/Key and you can accelerate into your durdling engines faster via Lotus and Moxen. In Legacy I think that acceleration costs you too much. With so many Sol Lands and 3 colors you become vulnerable to Wasteland, Blood Moon, Rug delver in general. Mox Opal is fine but another concern of mine is, by the time you get your engines going other decks may already have implemented their game plans. Truth be told, I never considered Transmute Artifact and tried to mitigate the loss of Vintage tutors. With Transmute artifact you may be able to reliably set-up your engines, I'm purely speculating at this point. But still, I can't imagine how the turns 1-3 would play out.

Also the more I think about acceleration the more I start wondering, what am I really adding to the 2 color UB Tezz deck and what am I achieving with the cute interactions between Welder, Strix and Thopters.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to trash the idea. I'm glad that someone brought it forward. It's just I tried to make this work before and came to question these points every time.

Edit: Also I tend to think of thopters/sword like the Skullclamp+Myr Tokens in Vintage. It is mainly for generating CA and cloggin up the board. But I think you'd still need a combo kill because people play sweepers in Legacy. When you jam all of this in, the deck becomes 80 cards :)

[Jkibbs]

Ok where to start?!

I have always loved welder from the day he was printed and I'm super stoked to have found an active thread for legacy that he can be a part of. I have a brew of my own that is different than the op but is still similar enough that this is probably the place for it. Fwiw my deck is just UR but the idea of splashing black has me thinking already!

My deck would be closest to welder mudd aggro w/ blue for filtering/CA. It takes some cues from welder/greaves decks but uses blue to add a tool boxy feel and makes the deck less reliant on its opening hands. It also was originally based on trying to port slaver from vintage to legacy. TfK is one house of a card and welder just makes it more obscene.

I actually had the build for this deck pre DRS and abrupt decay. The printing of both these cards certainly put a damper on welder but I believe my list is pretty resistant to both cards while still bringing loads of power to the table. I don't think welder is quite at the power level of the unfair decks but at least in my build you get to do some pretty op tricks. Enough talk, to the list already!

Welder

4 Goblin Welder

4 thirst for knowledge
2 careful study
2 intuition
2 swan song

1 izzet charm

3 lightening greaves
3 pithing needle
2 spellskite
1 thousand year elixir
3 wurmcoil engine
3 steel helllite
3 masticore

4 grim monolith
3 mox opal

4 seat of synod
1 great furnace
4 scalding tarn
4 ancient tomb
1 island
1 mountain
3 volcanic island
2 cavern of souls


Alright so that's my list and now a few explanations.

3 needles main? Yup! Stops DRS. stops tops in CB matches and stops their helm into leyline bs. Stops mom. Stops wasteland which is a bigger deal in my list and with 3 main if I have the option I don't hesitate to play it in WL turn 1 blind. Stops most if not of the entire death and taxes list. Stops grisselbrand and sneak attack.

Masticore? Really? Tbh this is a newer addition but again kills DRS and enables discard. Also quite easy to hard cast quickly. In my original build pre rtr their where 4 wurmcoil 3 hellkite and 2 platinum angel. With the printing of decay riding angel/greaves to win is far less reliable so I looked for something to replace it. Masty fills in quite nicely actually. Angel may find its way back in but for now it might be sb only material if that

The caverns are there to force welder through counters but also allow for some sick turn 2 plays. If you open with tomb into monolith the you can untap play cavern naming your fattie of choice and slam it down counter proof!

Hellkite is a staple in mudd builds and is just devistating if it hits. It must be dealt with immediately or in a format ruled by 1 and 2 drops it slaughters them all. With greaves it's often too late for your opponent to react. This is what makes TfK and intuition so devistatingly good. Even with out greaves end stepping a threat like wurmcoil or hellkite into play against a unprepared board is often gg right there.

2 skite 3 greaves 2 songs and 1 charm for protection is about all I could fit. Really wish I could find room for another skite(maybe instead of 3rd masticore?). Charm has been worse than hoped. My deck doesn't like having to produce 2 colored mana very often. It does kill DRS tho and enables instant yard enabling and spell pierces too boot so it stays in the mix at a 1 of. Originally I ran forces in the deck but my blue count is dangerously low to pull it off.

This deck looks like a combo deck but the tricks are almost more for protection and surprise than my outright game plan. I'm fine beating face with minimal but effective control elements. This should roll over fair decks and be more consistant than the combo decks(hopefully). I've thought about trying to board into underpowered show and tell or painter grindstone or even hive mind but I never had a chance to really sit down and put enough effort into what this builds board should be trying to do. Lol it's been hard enough getting the first 60 dialed in!

I've put a fair amount of hours into this deck if anyone has any thoughts or questions or suggestions.