[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Ingo]

Suicide fins

4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
4 Griselbee
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
4 Exhume
4 Unburial Rites
4 Unmask
4 Spoils of the Vault
2 Children of Korlis
2 Pull From Eternity
1 Spaghetti Monster
2 Gemstone Luckbox Caverns
2 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp

SB
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Serenity
2 Duress
1 Silence
2 Massacre
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Surgical Extraction



I like this list. I have played with Burning Reanimator, and agree that Burning wish did not do enough for the reanimation plan. And also that LED constricted the build too much (dropping Reanimate for Unburial Rites), becoming a bottleneck for the deck while not having a tutor for it. So I like the suggestion of Spoils of the Vault, because it grabs any card. The lifeloss isn't that bad, BR-Rea loses life to Reanimate as well, and manages just fine. If anybody is good with statistics, it would be interesting how much life you'd averagely loose to SotV to find a copy of a foursome card in the first turn.

However I do think that Spoils of the Vault works best in decks running 4-offs, and in Tin-FIns, you might have another bottleneck in finding a Children. With the lifeloss of SotV, the chance is real you won't have enough life to griseldraw into it. In a Burning-rea hybrid version though, swapping Bwish for SotV might be sweet.

Postboard, having a tutor that reliable gets a copy of your 4-off counterhate like CB, Wear/Tear, whatever you boarded in, feels tempting too.

[MDHackbert]

@Jblinder, I am interested in your LED ZeppeFins list. Any chance we could get a peek?

I have a list that I ran to a 2-2 success at a weekly legacy event here in AZ. I do plan to play it again after Vegas to further refine it; I am playing Dark Depths in Vegas and need practice.

Tin Fins (All-In)

Creatures:9
1 Children of Korlis
3 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:38
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
2 Unmask

Lands:13
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Underground Sea

Sideboard:15
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Chrome Mox
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Nature's Claim
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Show and Tell
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Bayou
1 Island

[Jblinder]

@Jblinder, I am interested in your LED ZeppeFins list. Any chance we could get a peek?



LED Zeppfins

Creatures:6
1 Children of Korlis
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:40
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
1 Unburial Rites
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
4 Unmask

Lands:14
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou

Sideboard:15
2 Duress
2 Massacre
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Reverent Silence
2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor


I do think we have to find a good transformational SB. Maybe Show and Tell is ok but I haven't been super happy with it. This list already has 4 LED. Maybe back to Doomsday??

Edit: Thinking maybe -1 Unmask, -1 Exhume +2 Ponder (or Top?)might be better in this list as it is less of an allin deck, while still being very fast ofc. Also probably transitions better to Doomsday, which I want to try. Maybe some weird Show and Doom transformation where Griselbrand stays in??

[Jblinder]

However I do think that Spoils of the Vault works best in decks running 4-offs, and in Tin-FIns, you might have another bottleneck in finding a Children. With the lifeloss of SotV, the chance is real you won't have enough life to griseldraw into it.

Wanting to Spoils for Children would be very rare. Spoils is here to find what we need to make Griselbrand. Once he is in play, if we are casting Spoils of the Vault we are in a bad position (not saying it could never happen). If we're in a spot where we can't find Children with Griselbrand, we are by definition in a spot where we need to hit off Spoils in the top 6 cards or less (otherwise we would just draw another 7 right?). If this is the case its almost always going to be better trying to win again next turn with whatever we did draw into.

The fact that we can entomb/reanimate Children also makes the line where we would want to Spoils for them even more rare.

[Ingo]

Wanting to Spoils for Children would be very rare. Spoils is here to find what we need to make Griselbrand. Once he is in play, if we are casting Spoils of the Vault we are in a bad position (not saying it could never happen). If we're in a spot where we can't find Children with Griselbrand, we are by definition in a spot where we need to hit off Spoils in the top 6 cards or less (otherwise we would just draw another 7 right?). If this is the case its almost always going to be better trying to win again next turn with whatever we did draw into.

I meant that playing Spoils of the vault to get Griselbrand into play, leaves you with a considerable lifeloss, mostlikely costing you a griselbrand activation. So it's very possible that the rise in consistency to get Griselbrand into play through Spoils, might cost you the ability to end the game in the same turn in Tin-Fins-Style (finding children) because Spoils probably left you with a draw-7 (or two) less. It's why I was rather thinking of Burning Reanimator, as it's the reanimator-version that's the least reliant on paying life (as BR runs Reanimate and Tin Fins trades life for chaining draw-7's).

But as your list combines both Unburial Rites and Shallow Grave, you don't necessarily need to combo in one turn. So maybe I'm overly worried :tongue:

[Karhumies]

I do think we have to find a good transformational SB. Maybe Show and Tell is ok but I haven't been super happy with it. This list already has 4 LED. Maybe back to Doomsday??

4x Infernal Tutor, 4x Leyline of the Void, 4x Helm of Obedience, 3x Enlightened Tutor? LEDs and W access in the MD, Leyline is not destroyed by Abrupt Decay which seems to be everywhere nowadays, and comboing through Thalia + Containment Priest + Karakas is not impossible, which is super important in paper meta which is like 33+% D&T. Bonus points if opponent is old school enough to bring Rest in Peace in.

[.dk]

LED Zeppfins

Creatures:6
1 Children of Korlis
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:40
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
1 Unburial Rites
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
4 Unmask

Lands:14
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou

Sideboard:15
2 Duress
2 Massacre
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Reverent Silence
2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor


I do think we have to find a good transformational SB. Maybe Show and Tell is ok but I haven't been super happy with it. This list already has 4 LED. Maybe back to Doomsday??

Edit: Thinking maybe -1 Unmask, -1 Exhume +2 Ponder (or Top?)might be better in this list as it is less of an allin deck, while still being very fast ofc. Also probably transitions better to Doomsday, which I want to try. Maybe some weird Show and Doom transformation where Griselbrand stays in??

The deck idea originally came from LED/Shallow Grave interactions prior to GP Griselbrand in 2012. After testing those configurations (Tin Fins 1 and 2) with Richard Cheese, it actually didn't even seem like LED was needed - cutting it left room for other useful cards (such as 3 copies of Tendrils and 0 Children of Korlis in that GP list - if only we knew then what we know now!). LED does have some very good uses in the deck though - It's a pretty good IMS after Griselbrand is in play, discard outlet, etc. I did find (albeit not with extensive trials and data collecting like we did a year ago or so) that the fizzle rate was basically 0. However... there are some gotchas.

Making Emrakul gets a lot harder with this build. You need to be conserving your Shallow Graves for that purpose. The other (and larger issue), is that we lose one of the advantages of the standard build in that trying to go off isn't going all-in. One of the things that sets Tin Fins apart from decks like ANT or TES is that if we are disrupted trying to go off, we usually haven't dumped all of our resources into it, so we can easily keep searching and try again relatively quickly due to redundancy in the deck. LED precludes that as you've discarded your hand at that point leaving yourself vulnerable.

Not saying it's bad - just a lot of tradeoffs.

bonus: Doomsday sideboard with LED's main:

4 SDT
4 Doomsday
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Lab Maniac
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Serenity

You get to run Lab Maniac! Bonus points if you run Chromatic Sphere with him. :) Also lets us run Serenity to help fight Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance.

(you want 1 Tendrils and at least 4 ponder - maybe LDV too - maindeck to be able to find Doomsday though)

[scottpou]

bonus: Doomsday sideboard with LED's main:

4 SDT
4 Doomsday
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Lab Maniac
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Serenity

You get to run Lab Maniac! Bonus points if you run Chromatic Sphere with him. :) Also lets us run Serenity to help fight Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance.

(you want 1 Tendrils and at least 4 ponder - maybe LDV too - maindeck to be able to find Doomsday though)

I'll post up a tournament report and some home testing tomorrow. I've squeezed lab man into my build and he's been very working well.

[.dk]

I'll post up a tournament report and some home testing tomorrow. I've squeezed lab man into my build and he's been very working well.

Shelldock/Emrakul + Lab Maniac is a great pile. Draws through the pile quickly, and gives you a backup wincon (Lab Maniac) if they deal with Emrakul.

Shelldock, Emrakul, SDT, LED, Lab Maniac

[Kobra_D]

So I took the RB version to GP NJ side events and ran so hot. Out of the 8 games I played I only lost to 1 miracles opponent and 1 imperial painter. Combined with the night before I ran 2-2 (should have been 3-1 but I missed a mentor trigger for lethal in the last round), I am starting to feel more comfortable with the deck.

The painter game was mine to have but I cut Tendrils from my 75 to try collective brutality, and didn't realize that painter had ensaring bridge so I only had 1 disenchant post board.

I'm still unsold on the burning wish plan, I've played wish before and without a lot of fast mana it is really slow. Or I am throwing rituals and petals into it that I would rather not waste.

That being said, I have been having fine amounts of games with the 13 lands. Even if I fizzle on the 21 cards I can probably strip their hand of anything meaningful and reset for the next turn.

And I'm still not trying to make the defense that R>U. But from recent lists I would say that brainstorm is not $900> red spells. A viable RB list can really increase speed (as we've seen with RB reanimator) while giving newer players a chance to play the best deck. Personally, whatever list gets people to play most is what I will advocate.

[phazonmutant]

Card Kingdom ran back-to-back 1K tournaments this weekend, and I ran my TinFins list at both to a combined 10-3 record. Got to the semifinals of the Saturday tournament (60 players), and went 4-2 in the Sunday (55 players). Pretty sure y'all need to get on my level.

3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Children of Korlis
1 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Griselbrand
4 Lotus Petal
4 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
4 Unmask

// Sideboard:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Scrubland
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Serenity
2 Show and Tell
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

The maindeck felt super tight. Chancellor was incredible, while Study and Unmask pulled their weight. My t1 "make a fat creature" percentage was something dumb like 50%. The sideboard is a bit looser. Most of the games I lost, I either didn't have enough mana sources to play my sideboard cards, had too many lands and didn't draw good answers to what they had, or the sideboard wasn't particularly relevant. Elesh Norn, the Thoughtseizes, and the Scrubland were decent.

In particular, Show and Tell and Mentor at 3 are just not really able to be supported as is. The deck wants another 2+ cantrips and another 1-2 lands if it wants to maximize them. I think I'll next try the same maindeck and this sideboard:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Serenity
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

A lot of the games are a blur at this point, but I'll link to VODs when I can.

Saturday
R1 D&T - 1-0
R2 Infect - 2-0
R3 BUG Delver - 3-0
R4 Shardless BUG - 4-0
R5 Bant Deathblade - 5-0 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/129571605?t=04h23m)
R6 ID
T8 D&T 6-0-1 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/129571605?t=06h24m)
T4 Aggro Loam 6-1-1 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/129571605?t=07h31m)

Upshots from this tournament - Deathrite is pretty useless against this build. Careful Study can dump multiple creatures and there are 8 effects that don't target a creature. D&T feels like it should be a bad matchup - they usually have 2 Macabre and RiP postboard - but I keep on eking out unlikely victories. The aggro loam loss was pure variance, it's a pretty good matchup. Mulled to 4 before I found a hand that was functional, then had 3 turns to draw any mana source to win and bricked.

Sunday
R1 Miracles - 0-1 (losing to probably the best player in the room, unfortunate pairing)
R2 Infect - 1-1
R3 D&T - 2-1 (rematch of the T4 match from yesterday)
R4 ANT - 3-1
R5 D&T - 4-1
R6 Moon Stompy - 4-2 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/129815998?t=05h18m)

I don't know how I keep on beating D&T, it really seems unlikely. In both matches, they had one game where they had all the hate, and then one game where their hand was garbage and I had a fast start. The Moon Stompy deck was incredibly metagamed against the field, particularly reanimator, and seems like a <35% matchup. Infect is actually not losable.

If you're curious about sideboarding, I can jot down some notes later.

[xix]

I would love the sideboard notes, and also your thoughts on running only 2 seas, (I have 2 of each dual relevant dual but no third sea) was just slotting the 2nd tundra in that spot, but unsure if its the optimal over just another fetch. Thanks.

[Zooligan]

I think I'll next try the same maindeck and this sideboard:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Serenity
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

I too would be interested in SB notes.

Couple other questions: Is the 1-of Serenity is worth it. How do you maximize chances of seeing it in post-board games, just SDT? What is the function of the 1-of Collective Brutality MD?

[phazonmutant]

I too would be interested in SB notes.

Couple other questions: Is the 1-of Serenity is worth it. How do you maximize chances of seeing it in post-board games, just SDT? What is the function of the 1-of Collective Brutality MD?

The Brutality main is an answer to troublesome creatures and also a maindeck Ensnaring Bridge. It's ok, not great, but the ability to win through weird situations makes it worthwhile I think.

Yeah, the 1-of is maybe a bad idea. I realized though that most of the decks where I thought I would want Serenity, it just really isn't that good. As a 1-of, you can still draw your deck to find it, and sometimes you'll lucksack into it.
Miracles - They play a ton of 2s now, so getting it through Counterbalance is tough. They don't play Rest in Peace any more, and do play Wear / Tear. I stopped bringing it in here.
D&T - I used to think it's great, but now stop bringing it in. The better plan is to race and use discard to clear the path. If they get Revoker on Griselbrand, it's not a big deal because you can still kill them with a 7/7 lifelink flyer.
Chalice decks - Here Serenity is great, but I think most of these decks you can beat with Mentor.
Leyline decks - Most also play Chalice, and again the plan is Mentor

Sideboard notes to come later.

[Zooligan]

As a 1-of, you can still draw your deck to find it, and sometimes you'll lucksack into it.

I figured if you could draw your deck you probably didn't need the Serenity that much anyway.

Thanks for the quick reply though. Looking forward to SB notes. Watching the VODs now.. :)

[Zooligan]

The Brutality main is an answer to troublesome creatures and also a maindeck Ensnaring Bridge. It's ok, not great, but the ability to win through weird situations makes it worthwhile I think.

So in the D&T VOD they talk about a 7 card loop to kill with Brutality. Can you expound on that? I would like to understand so i could pull this off without f-ing myself. Explain as if to a child ;)

[Richard Cheese]

Pretty sure it's the general Children + Grizzlebees + Emrakul looping but you just cast Brutality as a single Tendrils copy every iteration. Use all your rituals/petals, crack children, cast Brutality, pitch Emrakul to escalate, repeat until opponent wishes they were having less fun.

I could be wrong, haven't played this deck in a long time.

[.dk]

Pretty sure it's the general Children + Grizzlebees + Emrakul looping but you just cast Brutality as a single Tendrils copy every iteration. Use all your rituals/petals, crack children, cast Brutality, pitch Emrakul to escalate, repeat until opponent wishes they were having less fun.

I could be wrong, haven't played this deck in a long time.

Yes, that's it. It's the same loop to hardcast Emrakul, but you're just casting Collective Brutality every turn instead. This, as phazonmutant mentioned, gets around some weird corner cases that we've been arguing about with regards to the Tendrils slot for a few years now. :)

[Zooligan]

Pretty sure it's the general Children + Grizzlebees + Emrakul looping but you just cast Brutality as a single Tendrils copy every iteration. Use all your rituals/petals, crack children, cast Brutality, pitch Emrakul to escalate, repeat until opponent wishes they were having less fun.

I could be wrong, haven't played this deck in a long time.

As long as there's no technical gotcha way to screw it up. Cuz if there is, I will find it.

[Whitefaces]

I didn't realise you can loop Brutality like that, nice!

[.dk]

I didn't realise you can loop Brutality like that, nice!

Think of it this way - you can loop ANY spell you want, as long as it doesn't get exiled somehow.

[MXG]

Pretty sure it's the general Children + Grizzlebees + Emrakul looping but you just cast Brutality as a single Tendrils copy every iteration. Use all your rituals/petals, crack children, cast Brutality, pitch Emrakul to escalate, repeat until opponent wishes they were having less fun.

I could be wrong, haven't played this deck in a long time.

Since people have confirmed that it works that way just now, I'm very confused.

Emrakul’s trigger goes on the stack after you’ve finished *casting* Collective Brutality, but before Collective Brutality resolves. This would mean that Emrakul's shuffle trigger resolves before Collective Brutality resolves, and then after Collective Brutality resolves, it just goes to an empty graveyard.

Am I missing something?

Edit: How I assume it's done (correctly) is by casting Collective Brutality as just a drain effect, using Unmask or some other discard outlet to bin Emrakul, shuffle everything back in, and repeat until everyone's having fun.

[Acclimation]

For looping Brutality (or any card you want to loop), you have to:

(1) cast Brutality (or whatever other card),

(2) then make sure your library is in an increment of 7 including Emrakul when you go to shuffle everything back in,

(3) then use Therapy or Unmask to pitch Emrakul. (Once you've done a few loops, you make sure you use Therapy as the mana will be flowing easier than black cards)

(4) draw 7 or 14 or 21

(5) Repeat the process, casting rituals, sending Children to gulag, casting Brutality (or whatever), discarding Emrakul and shuffling back in an increment of 7.


As long as you do that, those sweet, sweet onion bursts will be yours with a low likelihood of messing up.

[Richard Cheese]

Since people have confirmed that it works that way just now, I'm very confused.

Emrakul’s trigger goes on the stack after you’ve finished *casting* Collective Brutality, but before Collective Brutality resolves. This would mean that Emrakul's shuffle trigger resolves before Collective Brutality resolves, and then after Collective Brutality resolves, it just goes to an empty graveyard.

Am I missing something?

Edit: How I assume it's done (correctly) is by casting Collective Brutality as just a drain effect, using Unmask or some other discard outlet to bin Emrakul, shuffle everything back in, and repeat until everyone's having fun.

Pretty sure you're correct. I'm just not getting enough folic acid and magnesium lately.

[.dk]

For looping Brutality (or any card you want to loop), you have to:

(1) cast Brutality (or whatever other card),

(2) then make sure your library is in an increment of 7 including Emrakul when you go to shuffle everything back in,

(3) then use Therapy or Unmask to pitch Emrakul. (Once you've done a few loops, you make sure you use Therapy as the mana will be flowing easier than black cards)

(4) draw 7 or 14 or 21

(5) Repeat the process, casting rituals, sending Children to gulag, casting Brutality (or whatever), discarding Emrakul and shuffling back in an increment of 7.


As long as you do that, those sweet, sweet onion bursts will be yours with a low likelihood of messing up.

Unmask DOES have a regular casting cost too - and you should be making enough mana per loop to just pair the fair price for it as well (loop cards of 4x Rits, Emrakul, Discard, Collective Brutality/Whatever). So it doesn't necessarily have to be therapy that you are looping with.

[Acclimation]

Unmask DOES have a regular casting cost too - and you should be making enough mana per loop to just pair the fair price for it as well (loop cards of 4x Rits, Emrakul, Discard, Collective Brutality/Whatever). So it doesn't necessarily have to be therapy that you are looping with.

I've found that Therapy makes for easier looping, as doing increments of 7 is much easier when i only have to cast 6 cards pre Emrakul, and trying to do Unmask even with hardcast made it more likely to mess up.

I have no evidence WHY this was the case for me, but I've been goldfishing this while sitting at home watching netflix and procrastinating on school work and have been idly noticing trends.

[Zooligan]

OK, I think I get the loop part, but I'm unsure about how you get set up into it. How do you assure that you have a library with a multiple of 7? After drawing the deck you just sac CoK and keep casting shit until you have 7x-2 cards in the yard and then cast a discard spell on yourself and pitch Emmy?

Non-loop question: Does Silence have any utility in the W transitional board plan?

[Jblinder]

For looping Brutality (or any card you want to loop), you have to:

(1) cast Brutality (or whatever other card),

(2) then make sure your library is in an increment of 7 including Emrakul when you go to shuffle everything back in,

(3) then use Therapy or Unmask to pitch Emrakul. (Once you've done a few loops, you make sure you use Therapy as the mana will be flowing easier than black cards)

(4) draw 7 or 14 or 21

(5) Repeat the process, casting rituals, sending Children to gulag, casting Brutality (or whatever), discarding Emrakul and shuffling back in an increment of 7.


As long as you do that, those sweet, sweet onion bursts will be yours with a low likelihood of messing up.

Unless there is a chalice (on 1) in play or some weird circumstance (which does happen), you really don't need to be so precise to make sure you have increments of 7 left in your deck. Sure, there will be times when you draw neither emrakul nor brutality (or whatever you want to loop with only 6 left in your deck. . If so you just entomb emrakul and keep going. Or if you just draw emrakul but not loop spell you can cabal therapy or unmask yourself. Each time you're casting all your rituals and petals and you can trivially make children at any point, as well as probe/brainstorm/ponder whenever (which you really won't need to do). You aren't forced to cast Brutality every loop. since you're infinite you'll eventually draw and cast it enough times even if you give yourself the most awkward library of 13 cards every time.

Chalice on 1 is rough times if you're trying to loop collective brutality. I'll have to think if it's even possible without dark ritual...Certainly you can hardcast emrakul through it just with lotus petals and unmask. You do have to make sure your library has increments of 7 through chalice on 1 because you can't entomb emrakul to keep the chain going.

[.dk]

I've found that Therapy makes for easier looping, as doing increments of 7 is much easier when i only have to cast 6 cards pre Emrakul, and trying to do Unmask even with hardcast made it more likely to mess up.

I have no evidence WHY this was the case for me, but I've been goldfishing this while sitting at home watching netflix and procrastinating on school work and have been idly noticing trends.

Wait, what? This isn't making sense to me. It's literally the same loop: 4x Rit, Collective Brutality, hardcast Unmask (or Therapy) discarding Emrakul. If you need more life then replace 2 rits with petal and CoK.


OK, I think I get the loop part, but I'm unsure about how you get set up into it. How do you assure that you have a library with a multiple of 7? After drawing the deck you just sac CoK and keep casting shit until you have 7x-2 cards in the yard and then cast a discard spell on yourself and pitch Emmy?

Non-loop question: Does Silence have any utility in the W transitional board plan?

Loop-wise: bingo. Just set it up until you have everything in your hand.

Non-loop question: we've run it in the past. Depends on the meta I think - a lot more utility when fast combo and RUG are more prevalent.

[Acclimation]

Wait, what? This isn't making sense to me. It's literally the same loop: 4x Rit, Collective Brutality, hardcast Unmask (or Therapy) discarding Emrakul. If you need more life then replace 2 rits with petal and CoK.



Loop-wise: bingo. Just set it up until you have everything in your hand.

Non-loop question: we've run it in the past. Depends on the meta I think - a lot more utility when fast combo and RUG are more prevalent.

When I typed that, I was rushing to type it before my class started, but the point I was wanting to make:

Petal, Petal, Ritual, Children, Brutality, Cabal Therapy, Emrakul is a complete loop without having to really track anything else (you should track children lifegain, but if you have it in every iteration, it's easier to show that you're gaining a stupid large amount of life to negate the life loss from Griselbrand).

If you wanted to weave in Unmask, your pile or my pile- children + ritual also gets there.

Moral of the story: There's a lot of different piles to set the loop up, which one you choose depends on how you prefer to show the loop.


I don't think there's a loop for Chalice at 1, you just smack them for 7 and set yourself up to reanimate next turn, and repeat until they're dead. Unless the game has gone on long, you shouldn't be in a position to lose next turn, and most non-eldrazi Chalice decks don't have much of a clock to begin with.

[Zooligan]

Non-loop question: we've run it in the past. Depends on the meta I think - a lot more utility when fast combo and RUG are more prevalent.

Silence seems like it would be useful in the current meta against Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre and is always useful against FoW.

[.dk]

Silence seems like it would be useful in the current meta against Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre and is always useful against FoW.

Then by all means, run it. Silence is at it's best against other storm decks and Canadian Thresh. There are already a bunch ways to play around/through Surgical and Faerie Macabre (which Silence doesn't stop anyway)

[Kobra_D]

Silence seems like it would be useful in the current meta against Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre and is always useful against FoW.

As .dk pointed out above me, be careful, Silence doesn't stop Faerie Macabre. It's an activated ability and can ruin your day anyways.

That being said also remember that you can always Pithing Needle the Macabre.


When I typed that, I was rushing to type it before my class started, but the point I was wanting to make:

Petal, Petal, Ritual, Children, Brutality, Cabal Therapy, Emrakul is a complete loop without having to really track anything else (you should track children lifegain, but if you have it in every iteration, it's easier to show that you're gaining a stupid large amount of life to negate the life loss from Griselbrand).

If you wanted to weave in Unmask, your pile or my pile- children + ritual also gets there.

Moral of the story: There's a lot of different piles to set the loop up, which one you choose depends on how you prefer to show the loop.


I don't think there's a loop for Chalice at 1, you just smack them for 7 and set yourself up to reanimate next turn, and repeat until they're dead. Unless the game has gone on long, you shouldn't be in a position to lose next turn, and most non-eldrazi Chalice decks don't have much of a clock to begin with.

To piggy back off of this;

For game 1 is I see chalice on 1 I tend to audible into playing a regular reanimator style deck. Get out Griselbrand, and Chancellor of the Annex , and then just keep stripping their hand with discard. That works incredibly well as a win-con.

Post board chalice means that there is access to whatever outs you had (U:Wipe Away , Echoing Truth . G: Abrupt Decay , Krosan Grip. W: Disenchant). As you're going through the loop hopefully you can draw into one of these spells to get rid of chalice opening up your rituals/entombs again (if you really need them at this point).

[Jblinder]

Chalice on 1 loops:

You need to carefully setup so that you'll be able to draw your whole library exactly. If you can the following loops should work through chalice.

Petalx4 sac all, cast children (countered by chalice)), shallow grave, unmask yourself discard emrakul, net 1 mana, children in play. 7 card library.

Petalx4 probe (countered) probe(countered), sac all petals, collective brutality pitching emrakul. Net 2 mana, 7 card library, collective brutality in gy.

Sac children. Play/sac 3 petals. Shallow grave. Unmask yourself discard emrakul. Net 1 mana, children in play, 7 card library containing collective brutality.

You can alternate these loops until you've cast brutality enough times to kill opponent, as long as you have enough black cards to pitch to unmask. Each brutality exiles 1 black card so 10 should be good enough for 20 damage. You easily have 10 cards to pitch so this works.

If you don't need to brutality you can also net enough mana from petals to hardcast emrakul using petal only loops, but on the last iteration you need to give yourself an 8 card library. You'll have a 7/8 chance of drawing emrakul. Then you can cast him and win on extra turn. If he is bottom card you pass (probably cast a griselbrand cause why not? and setup unmask/emrakul/goryo next turn.

[Zooligan]

As .dk pointed out above me, be careful, Silence doesn't stop Faerie Macabre. It's an activated ability and can ruin your day anyways.

Oh, interesting. I thought discarding it was an alternate casting cost, not an ability activation cost.

[Richard Cheese]

OK, I think I get the loop part, but I'm unsure about how you get set up into it. How do you assure that you have a library with a multiple of 7? After drawing the deck you just sac CoK and keep casting shit until you have 7x-2 cards in the yard and then cast a discard spell on yourself and pitch Emmy?

Non-loop question: Does Silence have any utility in the W transitional board plan?

You don't really have to have multiples of 7 to get going. You should have most of your deck in your hand anyway, so you have a ton of options to get to a repetitive state. If you don't draw Brutality, pitch Emrakul to shuffle and try again. Missing Emrakul or Children? Entomb is a thing. I think as long as you're making as much mana as possible pre-shuffle, you can just iterate towards a stable state.

Or just explain what's about to happen and give your opponent the choice between watching that go down for 20 minutes or a refreshing margarita. This is a win-win because anyone that insists you play it out doesn't deserve refreshing margaritas anyway.

Oh and on silence we've kinda moved away from it because it seems like most of the hate out there is permanent-based now anyway. Counterbalance, Deathrite, RiP, Karakas, Chalice. When it was all delver and stoneblade, Silence did a ton of work. I still want to believe that Abeyance is the answer to our problems but I think everyone who has ever tried it has come to the same conclusion that the cost is just too prohibitive.

[Zooligan]

I still want to believe that Abeyance is the answer to our problems but I think everyone who has ever tried it has come to the same conclusion that the cost is just too prohibitive. You mean mana cost?? 1W? gets around Chalice@1 :)

[Jblinder]

You mean mana cost?? 1W? gets around Chalice@1 :)

Unfortunatly Chalice decks don't tend to be decks you want a Silence effect against.

[Zooligan]

Unfortunatly Chalice decks don't tend to be decks you want a Silence effect against.

I realize that. I was attempting to be cute (hence the smiley) but crash and burn like so many of my attempts at humor and passes at women. I meant it sort of like the old "but you can pitch {insert meh blue card here} to FoW.

Never mind.

Anywho, is the 1W really that ungainly? Cuz otherwise it seems perfect.

[Jblinder]

I realize that. I was attempting to be cute (hence the smiley) but crash and burn like so many of my attempts at humor and passes at women. I meant it sort of like the old "but you can pitch {insert meh blue card here} to FoW.

Never mind.

Anywho, is the 1W really that ungainly? Cuz otherwise it seems perfect.

No, I think it should have been clear you were joking. Just a "whoosh" for me.

1W does seem cost-prohibitive to me, though I've never tried Abeyance. In post board games you usually have to be careful about not entombing early, since surgical extraction will blow you out. So now you're trying to cast abeyance/entomb/reanimation effect all in the same turn. It's hard to get the mana to do that with this deck by turn 2/3 when you're ideally going off.
Also, the turn you're casting Abeyance is the turn you want to go off, so presumably you have what you need to do so, so it's unclear how the extra card is helping you. it bbasically helps you if you need to cycle it or if you need a lucky topdeck off abeyance as a last resort...which seems far less important than the extra mana.

[Jblinder]

The deck idea originally came from LED/Shallow Grave interactions prior to GP Griselbrand in 2012. After testing those configurations (Tin Fins 1 and 2) with Richard Cheese, it actually didn't even seem like LED was needed - cutting it left room for other useful cards (such as 3 copies of Tendrils and 0 Children of Korlis in that GP list - if only we knew then what we know now!). LED does have some very good uses in the deck though - It's a pretty good IMS after Griselbrand is in play, discard outlet, etc. I did find (albeit not with extensive trials and data collecting like we did a year ago or so) that the fizzle rate was basically 0. However... there are some gotchas.

Making Emrakul gets a lot harder with this build. You need to be conserving your Shallow Graves for that purpose. The other (and larger issue), is that we lose one of the advantages of the standard build in that trying to go off isn't going all-in. One of the things that sets Tin Fins apart from decks like ANT or TES is that if we are disrupted trying to go off, we usually haven't dumped all of our resources into it, so we can easily keep searching and try again relatively quickly due to redundancy in the deck. LED precludes that as you've discarded your hand at that point leaving yourself vulnerable.

Not saying it's bad - just a lot of

Never got around to thanking you about this bit of history on the evolution of the deck and your thoughts on LED.

After playing a lot with LED I've come to agree that the vulnerability isn't worth it after all, even if the raw power of the deck goes up a bit, which I think it does. LED was especially problematic post board, where normal builds can trim some griselbrands and slow down a little for extra disruption. The LED version was maybe a little better pre board, where Tin Fins already shines, and noticeably worse post.

Anyway, thanks again.

Unrelated:: I've only played legacy online up until now, but I just bought the deck and am ready to rock GP Vegas with the Fins!

[jugglervr]

Question about Serenity... I'm more of an armchair player but I'm wondering how many threats we want to serenity at once, on average? I ask because, in a B/r build, I wonder if Wear and Tear might be a better option? It still costs 2 to dodge the most problematic chalice value, can be cast when opp taps out, can be cast for 3 to dodge a CMC2 on counterbalance (and to slow the top down a turn), and isn't subject to removal while it's out (Abrupt Decay, Council's Judgment, Venser...).

[.dk]

Abeyance is awesome! I've always wanted it to be good - but it... just isn't. It's a whole lot easier to swallow losing 1 mana and a card to Force of Will when they counter it than 2 mana and not getting the draw off of Abeyance. Silence can at least double as a Duress at that point. The extra mana in Abeyance means you might not even be able to go off that turn if it's countered. It also does nothing against Rest in Peace and Leyline. Maybe someday, when Dark Ritual gets outclassed... ;)



Never got around to thanking you about this bit of history on the evolution of the deck and your thoughts on LED.

After playing a lot with LED I've come to agree that the vulnerability isn't worth it after all, even if the raw power of the deck goes up a bit, which I think it does. LED was especially problematic post board, where normal builds can trim some griselbrands and slow down a little for extra disruption. The LED version was maybe a little better pre board, where Tin Fins already shines, and noticeably worse post.

Anyway, thanks again.

Unrelated:: I've only played legacy online up until now, but I just bought the deck and am ready to rock GP Vegas with the Fins!

hah, you're welcome! It's all buried in this thread somewhere... fun to reminisce about the good old days sometimes (pre DRS!). One other thing I forgot to mention with LED's - Pomegrant plays a build with Burning Wish from time to time - LED is essential there (obviously) if that's the build you want to go with.


Question about Serenity... I'm more of an armchair player but I'm wondering how many threats we want to serenity at once, on average? I ask because, in a B/r build, I wonder if Wear and Tear might be a better option? It still costs 2 to dodge the most problematic chalice value, can be cast when opp taps out, can be cast for 3 to dodge a CMC2 on counterbalance (and to slow the top down a turn), and isn't subject to removal while it's out (Abrupt Decay, Council's Judgment, Venser...).

Umm, as many as you need to win right then. In a BR build, you might be better off playing Crash or Pulverize for artifact hate, and... something else for enchantments. I dunno... Aura Blast? Aura Fracture? Ray of Revelation? I'm really thinking of Chalice decks here, and the ability to wipe their hate for low cost and then go off the same turn. Not sure what to do about Counterbalance though - honestly there aren't a lot of good options.

[Karhumies]

Having to invest the mana on the turn you want to go off seems really bad for Abeyance cmc2. If we have so much extra mana around, we could be resolving a Sneak Attack or Through the Breach and dodging their grave hate. Assuming that they have just one Macabre in hand, Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize gets the job done for only 1 mana on the combo turn.

Alternatives:

For non-Faerie Macabre:
Boseiju, Xantid Swarm, Hope of Ghirapur, Defense Grid

For Faerie Macabre:
Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Stifle, Lost Legacy, spot discard, Trickbind/Bind/Squelch (although Abeyance should be better than these 2 mana responses)

Dodging DRS, Surgical & Faerie Macabre:
Use Ground Seal + Shallow Grave / Exhume build

Running Gitaxian Probe can help you plan your sequence of play post-sb. Or you can skip Probe and play blindly into whatever they may have and hope for the best, which results in a slightly tighter 75.

[jugglervr]

Umm, as many as you need to win right then. In a BR build, you might be better off playing Crash or Pulverize for artifact hate, and... something else for enchantments. I dunno... Aura Blast? Aura Fracture? Ray of Revelation? I'm really thinking of Chalice decks here, and the ability to wipe their hate for low cost and then go off the same turn.

Well, right... the question is, how often is that "more than one", in your, and others', experience? And it can be paid for the turn before, just like Serenity, but with a little more agility.

[Kobra_D]

Question about Serenity... I'm more of an armchair player but I'm wondering how many threats we want to serenity at once, on average? I ask because, in a B/r build, I wonder if Wear and Tear might be a better option? It still costs 2 to dodge the most problematic chalice value, can be cast when opp taps out, can be cast for 3 to dodge a CMC2 on counterbalance (and to slow the top down a turn), and isn't subject to removal while it's out (Abrupt Decay, Council's Judgment, Venser...).


If your straight BR then wear//tear doesn't help catch much, but I assume that we're splashing white if that card is in the 75.

With that being the case I would probably recommend disenchant as the artifact/encht. hate. It is a great card against Leyline, RiP, Cage, Chalice@1/0, and [CARD]Dread of Night[/CARDS] (I had a grixis player board this in hoping to stop the children loop).

Abolish is a cute card that takes care of a lot of things, but I only run 1 scrubland at the moment so it isn't that good. But I guess there could be a build more focused on the white splash making abolish better.

It is at most 4 (but I usually board in 3) cards boarding in that stops all but 5 pieces of hate: DRS, Faerie Macabre, Karakas, Bojuka Bog, and surgical extraction.

DRS, Faerie Macabre, and Karakas are shut off by needle which is nice. Bog and surgical are annoying but our slew of discard spells help there (getting a lands player to crop rotate early or to shallow grave in response to a bog is a wonderful experience).

None of this really helps with miracles, but I have a different game plan for them. In this match up, since I'm playing white, I bring in mentors post board. This becomes similar to an older fringe deck (young Frankenstein/pyro reanimator), but it puts a body on the board that is hard for them to deal with. T1/T2 mentor is really good when they mulligan away terminus looking for RiP or containment priest.

My SB right now looks like this:
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
\\Flex
3 Dread of Night
1 Lost Legacy
1 Deathmark

Disenchant for art./encht. hate. Mentor for Miracles, Dread of Night for D&T. Needle takes care of the aforementioned, and the lost legacy helps against random things at times. Deathmark hasn't been boarded in in ages and should probably be needle 3.

[Acclimation]

Well, right... the question is, how often is that "more than one", in your, and others', experience? And it can be paid for the turn before, just like Serenity, but with a little more agility.

I'm regularly wiping 2-4 things with Serenity because people who play chalice decks are dumb and play a million lock pieces because they don't know about Serenity. I beat a Leyline combo deck that dumped his entire hand by t2 with Serenity.

The one time Serenity got stopped was by a Stax opponent topdecking his 1-of Oblivion Ring. Every other time, it's gone off and I won the game shortly after.

I don't depend on Serenity vs CB anymore, but I still bring it in because sometimes it slips in and provide a window for me to combo off.

If miracles is a constant thing you have to deal with, it's correct to do either Mentor+Cavern or green splash for Abrupt Decay.

Serenity has been a great card for me for the last few years, and continues to do good work for me. I hate leaving home without it in my SB.

[Jblinder]

My SB right now looks like this:
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
\\Flex
3 Dread of Night
1 Lost Legacy
1 Deathmark

Disenchant for art./encht. hate. Mentor for Miracles, Dread of Night for D&T. Needle takes care of the aforementioned, and the lost legacy helps against random things at times. Deathmark hasn't been boarded in in ages and should probably be needle 3.

If you're playing enough white to run the Mentors and full package of Disenchant, I'd think StP would be better than Deathmark. Yes, green and white creatures (DRS, Thalia, Ooze, Canonist) are certainly enemy number 1, but killing something like Delver/Young Pyro/Revoker and being instant seems well worth the life/worse color of mana.

I have a green splash for Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence, so I'm not splashing white in my board. I use Fatal Push, which is a card I'm surprised isn't being included more/talked about. It's just awesome, and kills all of the creatures listed above, at instant speed, in our main color. I've been very happy with two, and have even considered 3.

[.dk]

Well, right... the question is, how often is that "more than one", in your, and others', experience? And it can be paid for the turn before, just like Serenity, but with a little more agility.

Depends on your meta. If there are a lot of eldrazi or lands players - i would say often. But of those types of decks aren't common, then it's probably not even needed. As acclimation said, it's not amazing vs. CB, and could easily be replaced with something else for that matchup.

@jblinder - why run fatal push when you can run swords? Swords totally breaks any kind of reanimator mirror as well - it's such a house against BR.

[Jblinder]

Depends on your meta. If there are a lot of eldrazi or lands players - i would say often. But of those types of decks aren't common, then it's probably not even needed. As acclimation said, it's not amazing vs. CB, and could easily be replaced with something else for that matchup.

@jblinder - why run fatal push when you can run swords? Swords totally breaks any kind of reanimator mirror as well - it's such a house against BR.

I'm playing only one scrubland, and it's not a land I'm particularly excited to fetch, especially against decks like death and taxes and DRS decks with stifles, some of the most common matchups where I want Push. Again, I'm playing a version that is splashing for abrupt decay and reverent silence (abrupt decay for chalice and miracles only, i find it too inefficient in the previously mentioned matchups). Children of korlis is the literal only white card in my list. StP is def better than Push if you're dipping heavily enough into white already. StP>push>deathmark imo, but given that push is a black spell it's very clearly better in my builds.

[jugglervr]

So, I did some testing with "Redfin", a hybrid of Tin Fins and BR Reanimator. List below, but it basically uses the BR shell, swaps a little discard for some tutoring, and changes out the BR creatures for Fins creatures.

Creature (10)
4x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Griselbrand
1x Simian Spirit Guide

Sorcery (16)
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Collective Brutality
3x Exhume
4x Faithless Looting
2x Gamble
1x Tendrils of Agony
2x Unmask

Instant (14)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
2x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Shallow Grave

Artifact (7)
1x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Land (13)
1x Arid Mesa
2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Marsh Flats
1x Mountain
1x Plateau
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1x Collective Brutality
1x Massacre
4x Monastery Mentor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Serenity
2x Stronghold Gambit
3x Swords to Plowshares

Results were mostly favorable, though I only played against food chain for now. I feel like it was a good test, being a fairly fast deck with maindeck grave hate as well as countermagic.

The deck felt powerful from the first turn. Extra exhumes felt good for sacrificing children, and for just lucking into a chancellor. I played around 4 maindeck DRS and ~5 sideboard cards with the nontargeted reanimation. Nontargeted reanimation (at instant speed) was WAY better IRL than it sounds on paper. It first surprised my opp and then made him afraid to play because he couldn't see the lines.

Sensei's Divining top was quite powerful. The deck is more of a T3 without the blue cantripping, so the top didn't feel too slow; the whole deck was a little slower. It was also quite instrumental more than once to draw an extra card to fuel up for flying onion shrapnel.

Gamble was likewise a solid MVP. The card is traditionally always most useful early (t1 it's entombs #5&6), and we drop our hand rapidly so it feels less useful on t3 BUT gambling after a double 'brand whiff was one of the best feelings ever. Tutor for a card, and only a 6% chance to discard it feels really nice. SSG was useful to fuel the gamble.

I feel a distinct lack of discard in the main. 6 sources doesn't feel like enough so I'm working on how to increase my count. I think maybe one more unmask, or maybe a singleton thoughtseize is the answer. Another thought is to go up to 4x therapy, and cut the chancellors for surgical extraction in the main. Discard into extraction is strong, and extracting a fetch into a targeted therapy is also not awful. I feel like it bears testing. It even counters opposing surgicals by removing the target in response (and subsequently failing to find, of course). Losing the chancellors means i go softer on the exhume plan, I think.

Sideboard notes:

Serenity FELT bad, but only because my target was Food Chain, which demands instant speed removal. I'm not swapping it for Wear and Tear yet.
Firestorm was godlike to kill DRS after EoT activations.
Monastery Mentor was [redacted]. Edit: i'm pretty sure I wasn't enough all-in on the man plan so I want to do some more testing before I pass judgment.
Pithing needle was great, and I expect it to be great against a wide variety of decks. Definitely going up to 2 in SB.
Tidespout tyrant probably deserves a slot, since he's useful with a shallow grave mid-burst. Might even replace the 2 serenity in SB, since it's a tutorable solution for permanents. Depends on whether the meta is RiP/Leyline heavy I guess, though if it is I'm definitely on the Discard/Gamble/Stronghold Gambit plan I think.

[Kobra_D]

If you're playing enough white to run the Mentors and full package of Disenchant, I'd think StP would be better than Deathmark. Yes, green and white creatures (DRS, Thalia, Ooze, Canonist) are certainly enemy number 1, but killing something like Delver/Young Pyro/Revoker and being instant seems well worth the life/worse color of mana.

I have a green splash for Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence, so I'm not splashing white in my board. I use Fatal Push, which is a card I'm surprised isn't being included more/talked about. It's just awesome, and kills all of the creatures listed above, at instant speed, in our main color. I've been very happy with two, and have even considered 3.

The deathmark is because I have soo many D&T in my meta. It seems that every one either plays D&T or has D&T sleeved up just in case they feel like playing it. Fatal push is nice, but it doesn't easily hit 3/4 drops, and there are some creatures above that cmc that I may want to get rid of.

StP is awesome, but I only run 1 scrubland in my 75, along with 5 fetches and 4 petals. So there is not a whole lot of white mana available to me. But I do agree, deathmark is easily my worst card that will get cut first.

[Jblinder]

The deathmark is because I have soo many D&T in my meta. It seems that every one either plays D&T or has D&T sleeved up just in case they feel like playing it. Fatal push is nice, but it doesn't easily hit 3/4 drops, and there are some creatures above that cmc that I may want to get rid of.

StP is awesome, but I only run 1 scrubland in my 75, along with 5 fetches and 4 petals. So there is not a whole lot of white mana available to me. But I do agree, deathmark is easily my worst card that will get cut first.

I'd think Fatal Push hitting Revoker is more important vs D&T than hitting 3s and 4s, especially when you can still hit those 3s and 4s with a fetch or a Petal. Even moreso because you're playing Dread of Night and not Massacre, making Revoker one of their most important threats. Hitting Thalia eot happens a lot with Push. I'd take Push over Deathmark all day in that matchup. Agree that Swords is worse than both if you only have Scrubland.

[Kobra_D]

I'd think Fatal Push hitting Revoker is more important vs D&T than hitting 3s and 4s, especially when you can still hit those 3s and 4s with a fetch or a Petal. Even moreso because you're playing Dread of Night and not Massacre, making Revoker one of their most important threats. Hitting Thalia eot happens a lot with Push. I'd take Push over Deathmark all day in that matchup. Agree that Swords is worse than both if you only have Scrubland.

That's a good point, I just got the dread of nights because I was tired of losing to D&T post board, but with them deathmark is a lot less relevant. Maybe Push is right, although, I've also been thinking about collective brutality just because I'm not running one in the main and it does bring some versatility.

[jugglervr]

Question about the man plan... How does it race combo? My impression is that vs combo, you just have to side in a little reactive hate and race. Is that fair?

[.dk]

Question about the man plan... How does it race combo? My impression is that vs combo, you just have to side in a little reactive hate and race. Is that fair?

Yes, if you're boarding in mentor against ANT or TES, you're doing it wrong. In matchups like that, you should be pretty heavily favored on the reanimation plan - you're faster and generally more resilient to discard spells.

[Kobra_D]

Mentor is only for the grindier match ups.

If I'm against combo, it depends but I'm on some combination of lost legacy, pithing needle, and disenchants.

An opponent may still be able to go off before us, but if you're running a particularly fast list, they need to dilute a decent amount for grave hate.

There are cabal therapy guides out there, but I was curious if anyone was willing to brainstorm a lost legacy and pithing needle guide for various match ups? It may not remain in my 75 but for now I figure it wouldn't hurt to play effectively.

Lost Legacy
Sneak and show- I have no idea, I keep going between the enablers (show and tell/sneak attack), and the actual targets (Griselbrand, Emrakul)
ANT- Tendrils, I've never had an ANT player board in goblins post board.
TES- Burning wish, there is still probably an empty the warrens in the main but as a 1 of it will be a lot more work for them.
Belcher- I think empty the warrens would be right, maybe a ritual or burning wish but probably just warrens. Although if it's a transformative board into bad sneak attack that could be interesting. I also overvalue Chancellor in this match up so that I can steal the play back for an early discard.
Elves- Craterhoof, as if we take natural order they can still generate enough mana to cast craterhoof.
Food Chain- ....food chain....
Aluren- It's too bad legacy can't hit the strix, maybe cavern harpy, or just aluren in general.
Dredge- This one I'm not sure of, maybe bridges, or spy, or dread return. Obvious play is to name narcomeoba.

Pithing Needle
Sneak and show- Sneak attack
ANT- ....
TES- ...
Belcher- Belcher
Elves- DR. Shaman
Food Chain- ....
Aluren- Cavern Harpy
Dredge- ...

[.dk]

Mentor is only for the grindier match ups.

If I'm against combo, it depends but I'm on some combination of lost legacy, pithing needle, and disenchants.

An opponent may still be able to go off before us, but if you're running a particularly fast list, they need to dilute a decent amount for grave hate.

There are cabal therapy guides out there, but I was curious if anyone was willing to brainstorm a lost legacy and pithing needle guide for various match ups? It may not remain in my 75 but for now I figure it wouldn't hurt to play effectively.

Lost Legacy
Sneak and show- I have no idea, I keep going between the enablers (show and tell/sneak attack), and the actual targets (Griselbrand, Emrakul)
ANT- Tendrils, I've never had an ANT player board in goblins post board.
TES- Burning wish, there is still probably an empty the warrens in the main but as a 1 of it will be a lot more work for them.
Belcher- I think empty the warrens would be right, maybe a ritual or burning wish but probably just warrens. Although if it's a transformative board into bad sneak attack that could be interesting. I also overvalue Chancellor in this match up so that I can steal the play back for an early discard.
Elves- Craterhoof, as if we take natural order they can still generate enough mana to cast craterhoof.
Food Chain- ....food chain....
Aluren- It's too bad legacy can't hit the strix, maybe cavern harpy, or just aluren in general.
Dredge- This one I'm not sure of, maybe bridges, or spy, or dread return. Obvious play is to name narcomeoba.

Pithing Needle
Sneak and show- Sneak attack
ANT- ....
TES- ...
Belcher- Belcher
Elves- DR. Shaman
Food Chain- ....
Aluren- Cavern Harpy
Dredge- ...

Why on earth would you bring in lost legacy against combo? Seems like a waste of a dark ritual to me. And anything you're taking out for that is probably better in the matchup. Your discard should be good enough to slow them down for you to win usually. And actually... why on earth would you play lost legacy?

Needle, on the other hand... That's useful in some combo matchups. Epic win vs. Oops, All Spells one time with T1 needle on Street Wraith.

ANT/TES - don't bring it in
Food Chain - Probably DRS. If you're forced to name Food Chain, you're probably in bad shape.
Aluren - the combo wins straight through needle on harpy with rec sage. Always name DRS to slow them down and protect your graveyard. This should be an easy matchup.
Dredge - don't bring it in
Oops - Street Wraith
Elves - DRS usually
Sneak and Show - Sneak Attack

The exception is if you probe these decks and see a hand with only 1 fetchland in it, name that. Needle is generally in the sideboard for DRS, Wasteland, Karakas, SDT against slower decks. Has marginal utility in combo matches (aside form those decks running DRS)

[Kobra_D]

I would cut a probe for legacy, not a ritual, as a matter of fact probe is probably the first card I cut post board unless I'm bringing in mentors.

And I'm not sold on lost legacy not being a viable candidate, it is a 1 card hate piece for a lot of matchups. It is also convenient on being able to hit some hand traps early like, macabre or containment priest. If I have disenchants and discard for everything else this could enable me to go off.

I'm definitely not sold on it yet but I am unwilling to try it without a little more testing.

[.dk]

I would cut a probe for legacy, not a ritual, as a matter of fact probe is probably the first card I cut post board unless I'm bringing in mentors.

And I'm not sold on lost legacy not being a viable candidate, it is a 1 card hate piece for a lot of matchups. It is also convenient on being able to hit some hand traps early like, macabre or containment priest. If I have disenchants and discard for everything else this could enable me to go off.

I'm definitely not sold on it yet but I am unwilling to try it without a little more testing.


That's not what I meant. I meant that you are likely going to be casting it off of dark ritual against another combo deck to make it fast enough.

[Kobra_D]

That's not what I meant. I meant that you are likely going to be casting it off of dark ritual against another combo deck to make it fast enough.

My bad, I totally misread your comment. That makes way more sense when you put it that way.

It does choke you a little bit, but losing 1 dark ritual to ensure my opponent can't do anything is pretty good. It's not ideal but I've pitched dark rit. to unmask before, doesn't feel great but if it gets the job done I would say it's justified.

[.dk]

My bad, I totally misread your comment. That makes way more sense when you put it that way.

It does choke you a little bit, but losing 1 dark ritual to ensure my opponent can't do anything is pretty good. It's not ideal but I've pitched dark rit. to unmask before, doesn't feel great but if it gets the job done I would say it's justified.

But you can't ensure that - that's why discard is better. You get better information to determine what to take instead of naming blind. Seems like you would want all of your Gitaxian Probes in your deck still if you were playing this card. But even then, they draw for what you rip out of their hand and could potentially draw out of it. This card just seems... bad.

[Kobra_D]

It is only coming in post board so you already know what you're up against, yes it then involves you to have a stronger understanding of other deck lists and typical hate available to them, but that isn't so unreasonable.

It does stop brainstorm in response to discard spells, and I wouldn't even treat this as discard spell 9, it is more to clear the road a little later. I might slow down a turn or two and hit the main hate our opponent has.

It can also punish some other combo decks by hitting the part of the chain they need most.

Or maybe it is just better to come on with mentor. T2 mentor, T3 legacy naming terminus gives us a strong likelihood against miracles. Naming loam or crop rotation could be nice against lands and maverick.
.
But like I said, I'm not sure. I'm willing to spend the next few play sessions testing it out.

[bigbobbobber]

This is why in games two and three it's so important to keep hands that can win on turn one or two, even through a force of will or surgical extraction. It's reasonable to expect that an opponent playing a blue deck will mulligan to Force of Will or surgical, and non blue will mulligan to Surgical, Cage, Crypt, Faerie Macabre, etc. Things like Lost Legacy don't matter if you can just Unmask their protection/hate and combo off.

Of course, this is entirely different if you are going for the Mentor sb plan.

[jugglervr]

Report on Redfin in a casual 8-man this afternoon. Went undefeated (3/0 -- 6/0) in 3 rounds despite being really groggy and shaky from a long nap and forgetting to eat.

Redfin (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/redfin/)

Creature (10)
4x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Griselbrand
1x Simian Spirit Guide

Artifact (7)
1x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Sorcery (16)
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Collective Brutality
2x Exhume
4x Faithless Looting
2x Gamble
1x Reanimate
1x Tendrils of Agony
2x Unmask

Instant (14)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
2x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Shallow Grave

Land (13)
2x Arid Mesa
3x Badlands
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plateau
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1x Collective Brutality
2x Firestorm
2x Pithing Needle
2x Serenity
1x Sickening Dreams
2x Stronghold Gambit
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Tidespout Tyrant


The deck felt powerful even without blue, but it was certainly not as explosive as a blue version would be. Previous testing showed me that the man plan was a bad idea in this deck, partly because we lack the cantrips to make it work and also partly because opponents put us on BR reanimator and keep in their permanent hate for blood moon and/or animate dead. So I just went with the reactive SB.

As I mentioned, I was feeling really out of it so I could be remembering things really wrong. If I did, I apologize.


R1: LEDredge (borrowed)
This was a player who's super new to legacy and I'd previously promised to loan him a deck but I was so late he ended up borrowing from someone else. He had some experience with dredge so he decided to stay on it.
I win the die roll, I think.
G1 I get a decent keep, he loots faithlessly on t1, I burst into tendrils on t2.
SB out 3 random things and in 2x surgical and Sickening Dreams (in case of zombie horde)
G2 I keep a shaky 6, he whiffs on a blind therapy for Entomb, then we durdle for 7 turns while he whiffs on a LED discard and I whiff on 2 faithless lootings, eventually discarding emrakul to protect my fatties from surgical (that opp doesn't play). Eventually I get running on Grisby and then a plate of Spaghetti joins in short order.
Notes: Opp missed a chance to use cephalid colliseum. he cracked LED to discard a dredger, then didn't realize he could expend his gemstone to get threshold and start going off. Might not have helped him as he bricked pretty hard. I also forgot to surgical a grave troll (was a little afraid of a dread return so not 100% a mistake)


R2: Burn (new player to the shop)
Opp had sold his cards a while back and is buying back in, so this makes the 7th semi-regular at our shop on burn.
I win the die roll.
G1 Goblin guide comes early, and I'm a little foggy on exactly what happened in what order. I think he chain lightinged me, and connected once more with GG, leaving me at 12. I fetch, shallow grave griselbrand and am trying to do math on how to draw out of this without going to 4 and getting into fireblast range when opp scoops it up.
SB Firestorm and Sickening Dreams for 3 pieces of randomness
G2 Opp gets a monastery swiftspear and suspends a rift bolt t2. I proceed to burst onions and after lethal he reveals an uncast eidolon. He'd put me on BR reanimator and mis-sideboarded AND mis-played. Part of my burst was an exhume on griselbrand, followed by a shallow grave on griselbrand to get an attack step in when I whiffed on emrakul.
G3 (honor game) he gets early swiftspear, followed by t2 pyrostatic pillar. I respond by firestorming the swiftspear and opp, discarding gas. my t2, i shallow grave griselbrand, draw a bunch, attack, draw a bunch, unmask his price of progress, petal, CoK to go to 2 (once I saw his lack of fireblast), sacrifice children to go back to 18, attack, and probably tendrils him for lethal
Notes: it's really great when Opp puts us on a different reanimation deck. I feel like this kind of trollishness is what this deck lives for.


R3: Mud (shop veteran)
I win the roll again. Crucial against chalice decks, I feel.
G1 I mulligan to 5, keep a gamble, grisby, and faithless looting. T1 I gamble for exhume and forget what I discard. T1 he has a tapped cloudpost. T2 I loot, petal, exhume Grisby and then exhume (!) Chancellor. I unmask him and he scoops after I take his metalworker (and then mentions that he should have scooped before I saw his hand)
SB out 3 1-mana spells and 2 chancellor for 4 2-mana spells and tidespout tyrant (i didn't think i could dodge chalice with the chancellor so i wanted to up my 2-cost count and my bounce.)
G2 I'm petrified of t1 Chalice but he kept a hand with t2 lodestone golem. I get t1 entomb shallow grave Griselbrand with 2 petals in-hand. I ask if he wants to scoop, he says he's seen Fins whiff enough that he'll watch it play out. I say that's great because I love to play this deck out! I draw a bunch, then gamble into CoK, sacrifice children, draw a bunch more, rit rit entomb emmy, vengeance for 22. He's a little less happy than I am that I didn't whiff.


Thoughts:
Faithless looting is great, and Gamble is a friggin HOUSE. Losing blue slows the deck by about 3/4 of a turn but the tools it picks up make up for it in consistency if opp forces the game to go slowly.
Chancellor of the Annex would have been cool if i'd had him in any of the 6 hands I'd kept. It was definitely a great target for exhume, and would have been a good reanimate target if I'd seen that line before Griselbranding myself below that threshold.
I don't feel like the deck has the ability to go redundant with the reanimation early, so you have to be careful about when you discard. At one point, I held up a surgical against my opp to counter their surgical if it ever came.
Stronghold Gambit felt like a bad inclusion at all times, and I think it's because I don't run enough discard to check for the coast being clear. I like it a LOT in BR reanimator but it falls flat here. I'll be swapping for Sneak Attack (which i despise in BR reanimator but like here because we do all our things in a single turn anyway - even tidespout snuck in isn't that bad; we can bounce a few key threats and stall if we don't have the gas).
Sideboarding is tough. I tend to just shave on some of my support cards, so that's a big growth area for me here.

Props:
Bigger Better Games in Fremont for hosting casual 10-proxy regular sunday legacy events.
My opponents for all being polite and relatively cheerful as I did profoundly unfun things to them
BBG AND my opponents for holding the tournament for me as I rushed over.

Slops:
Me for oversleeping
Chancellor of the Annex for not being very relevant
Wizards Event Reporter for giving my otherwise undefeated R3 opponent 3rd place instead of 2nd.

[Kobra_D]

Report on Redfin in a casual 8-man this afternoon. Went undefeated (3/0 -- 6/0) in 3 rounds despite being really groggy and shaky from a long nap and forgetting to eat.

Redfin (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/redfin/)

Creature (10)
4x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Griselbrand
1x Simian Spirit Guide

Artifact (7)
1x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Sorcery (16)
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Collective Brutality
2x Exhume
4x Faithless Looting
2x Gamble
1x Reanimate
1x Tendrils of Agony
2x Unmask

Instant (14)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
2x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Shallow Grave

Land (13)
2x Arid Mesa
3x Badlands
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plateau
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1x Collective Brutality
2x Firestorm
2x Pithing Needle
2x Serenity
1x Sickening Dreams
2x Stronghold Gambit
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Tidespout Tyrant


The deck felt powerful even without blue, but it was certainly not as explosive as a blue version would be. Previous testing showed me that the man plan was a bad idea in this deck, partly because we lack the cantrips to make it work and also partly because opponents put us on BR reanimator and keep in their permanent hate for blood moon and/or animate dead. So I just went with the reactive SB.

As I mentioned, I was feeling really out of it so I could be remembering things really wrong. If I did, I apologize.


R1: LEDredge (borrowed)
This was a player who's super new to legacy and I'd previously promised to loan him a deck but I was so late he ended up borrowing from someone else. He had some experience with dredge so he decided to stay on it.
I win the die roll, I think.
G1 I get a decent keep, he loots faithlessly on t1, I burst into tendrils on t2.
SB out 3 random things and in 2x surgical and Sickening Dreams (in case of zombie horde)
G2 I keep a shaky 6, he whiffs on a blind therapy for Entomb, then we durdle for 7 turns while he whiffs on a LED discard and I whiff on 2 faithless lootings, eventually discarding emrakul to protect my fatties from surgical (that opp doesn't play). Eventually I get running on Grisby and then a plate of Spaghetti joins in short order.
Notes: Opp missed a chance to use cephalid colliseum. he cracked LED to discard a dredger, then didn't realize he could expend his gemstone to get threshold and start going off. Might not have helped him as he bricked pretty hard. I also forgot to surgical a grave troll (was a little afraid of a dread return so not 100% a mistake)


R2: Burn (new player to the shop)
Opp had sold his cards a while back and is buying back in, so this makes the 7th semi-regular at our shop on burn.
I win the die roll.
G1 Goblin guide comes early, and I'm a little foggy on exactly what happened in what order. I think he chain lightinged me, and connected once more with GG, leaving me at 12. I fetch, shallow grave griselbrand and am trying to do math on how to draw out of this without going to 4 and getting into fireblast range when opp scoops it up.
SB Firestorm and Sickening Dreams for 3 pieces of randomness
G2 Opp gets a monastery swiftspear and suspends a rift bolt t2. I proceed to burst onions and after lethal he reveals an uncast eidolon. He'd put me on BR reanimator and mis-sideboarded AND mis-played. Part of my burst was an exhume on griselbrand, followed by a shallow grave on griselbrand to get an attack step in when I whiffed on emrakul.
G3 (honor game) he gets early swiftspear, followed by t2 pyrostatic pillar. I respond by firestorming the swiftspear and opp, discarding gas. my t2, i shallow grave griselbrand, draw a bunch, attack, draw a bunch, unmask his price of progress, petal, CoK to go to 2 (once I saw his lack of fireblast), sacrifice children to go back to 18, attack, and probably tendrils him for lethal
Notes: it's really great when Opp puts us on a different reanimation deck. I feel like this kind of trollishness is what this deck lives for.


R3: Mud (shop veteran)
I win the roll again. Crucial against chalice decks, I feel.
G1 I mulligan to 5, keep a gamble, grisby, and faithless looting. T1 I gamble for exhume and forget what I discard. T1 he has a tapped cloudpost. T2 I loot, petal, exhume Grisby and then exhume (!) Chancellor. I unmask him and he scoops after I take his metalworker (and then mentions that he should have scooped before I saw his hand)
SB out 3 1-mana spells and 2 chancellor for 4 2-mana spells and tidespout tyrant (i didn't think i could dodge chalice with the chancellor so i wanted to up my 2-cost count and my bounce.)
G2 I'm petrified of t1 Chalice but he kept a hand with t2 lodestone golem. I get t1 entomb shallow grave Griselbrand with 2 petals in-hand. I ask if he wants to scoop, he says he's seen Fins whiff enough that he'll watch it play out. I say that's great because I love to play this deck out! I draw a bunch, then gamble into CoK, sacrifice children, draw a bunch more, rit rit entomb emmy, vengeance for 22. He's a little less happy than I am that I didn't whiff.


Thoughts:
Faithless looting is great, and Gamble is a friggin HOUSE. Losing blue slows the deck by about 3/4 of a turn but the tools it picks up make up for it in consistency if opp forces the game to go slowly.
Chancellor of the Annex would have been cool if i'd had him in any of the 6 hands I'd kept. It was definitely a great target for exhume, and would have been a good reanimate target if I'd seen that line before Griselbranding myself below that threshold.
I don't feel like the deck has the ability to go redundant with the reanimation early, so you have to be careful about when you discard. At one point, I held up a surgical against my opp to counter their surgical if it ever came.
Stronghold Gambit felt like a bad inclusion at all times, and I think it's because I don't run enough discard to check for the coast being clear. I like it a LOT in BR reanimator but it falls flat here. I'll be swapping for Sneak Attack (which i despise in BR reanimator but like here because we do all our things in a single turn anyway - even tidespout snuck in isn't that bad; we can bounce a few key threats and stall if we don't have the gas).
Sideboarding is tough. I tend to just shave on some of my support cards, so that's a big growth area for me here.

Props:
Bigger Better Games in Fremont for hosting casual 10-proxy regular sunday legacy events.
My opponents for all being polite and relatively cheerful as I did profoundly unfun things to them
BBG AND my opponents for holding the tournament for me as I rushed over.

Slops:
Me for oversleeping
Chancellor of the Annex for not being very relevant
Wizards Event Reporter for giving my otherwise undefeated R3 opponent 3rd place instead of 2nd.

That's awesome, congratulations.

I have often debated with the monkey and the 1 of mox, but while it often helps beat daze it does little else that I want. It think I've come to the conclusion that there is some fractional percentage different but honestly at this point I'm not sure which way that goes.

What was it that you liked so much about gamble? I always talked myself into ditching that card although I'm never 100% convinced.

The tops are pretty cool, slow you down but give so much late game value that it's hard to argue against.

Only one thing that I would probably change myself and that is the 1 of tendrils. If you're going off then there is a very small window where tendrils gets you the game but attacking and/or hard casting Emrakul doesn't. With collective brutality already in your 60, if you're going off, I'm not sure where looping several iterations of the drain 2 mode doesn't lock it down for you anyway. And you don't have to do it several times, any unreasonable opponent will concede to save time, otherwise, enjoy the classic miracles win (1-0-0).

There would have to be something like the chalice on 1 lock out, where you only animate griselbrand for the turn, and in all your cards your either dead on the return or not find enough to go again the following turn. Plausible I suppose, but I would definitely rather the extra discard spell for redundany and make the win happen with Emrakul.

[jugglervr]

I have often debated with the monkey and the 1 of mox, but while it often helps beat daze it does little else that I want. It think I've come to the conclusion that there is some fractional percentage different but honestly at this point I'm not sure which way that goes.
well, the monkey helps with daze, as you mentioned, as well as:

a reanimation spell with another black source
gamble or faithless looting post-Grisby (or even pre-)
instant mana source that dodges chalice
maybe something else I'm missing? It's just very flexible




What was it that you liked so much about gamble? I always talked myself into ditching that card although I'm never 100% convinced.
Post-Grisby, SSG or a petal plus gamble means you never really whiffed. Tutor up your answer (usually Chillens) and then discard one out of 15-25 cards means your tutored card has a 4-6% chance of being discarded, which is some good odds.
Pre-grisby, it's a little shakier since we depend on multiple spells, BUT... suppose you cast it on t1 on the play for one of your combo pieces. Land>Gamble, you're discarding one of 6 cards. Suppose you tutored for one piece of your 3-piece combo (mana, entomb, reanimation), you have a 50% chance of discarding one of your pieces. I feel that's much better value than hoping to topdeck the missing piece.
Additionally, I find myself gambling for one of: discard, fatty, reanimation. In those cases, I'm only protecting two pieces with the Gamble (because if the fatty gets hit, it's gravy - unless it's emmy and I don't have mana up)


The tops are pretty cool, slow you down but give so much late game value that it's hard to argue against.
Well, the argument is just as you said: late game value. Redfin requires thinking about the late game, where Tin Fins cares less. I actually never cast a top during the tournament but it's been very good in testing, especially with fetch lands (which is why I'm going up to 8 fetch and cutting a Plateau)
But really, if there was a colorless sorcery that cost 2 and let you ponder without a shuffle, it would probably see play. that's what Top does on the first 2 turns and only gets better.
(though maindecking top makes me wonder if the doomsday transformation might work. probly not but I'm dumb enough to try it)


Only one thing that I would probably change myself and that is the 1 of tendrils. If you're going off then there is a very small window where tendrils gets you the game but attacking and/or hard casting Emrakul doesn't. With collective brutality already in your 60, if you're going off, I'm not sure where looping several iterations of the drain 2 mode doesn't lock it down for you anyway. And you don't have to do it several times, any unreasonable opponent will concede to save time, otherwise, enjoy the classic miracles win (1-0-0).

There would have to be something like the chalice on 1 lock out, where you only animate griselbrand for the turn, and in all your cards your either dead on the return or not find enough to go again the following turn. Plausible I suppose, but I would definitely rather the extra discard spell for redundancy and make the win happen with Emrakul.
Basically the tendrils is there so I don't have to loop. I've also had a couple situations in testing where Grisby whiffed on getting Emmy, but him attacking put opp into tendrils range that turn (yes, one more attack probably would have given me enough life to start looping but that's not guaranteed). And once where a tendrils gave me enough life pre-attack to keep bursting.
I mean, it's possible that tendrils could be cut. I'm using Brutality as a swiss army knife of discard outlet, hand disruption for opp, and deathrite/thalia kill and basically don't really want to spend 10 minute looping Emrakul. Also, tendrils let me win immediately under a pyrostatic pillar in the honor round of the tournament, where looping possibly would have killed me (maybe not with CoK recursion, though).
Tendrils feels to some like a win-more card but I see it as a win-NOW card. :)

(disclaimer: I'm still pretty noob with the deck so this could all be hot air)

[Kobra_D]

well, the monkey helps with daze, as you mentioned, as well as:

a reanimation spell with another black source
gamble or faithless looting post-Grisby (or even pre-)
instant mana source that dodges chalice
maybe something else I'm missing? It's just very flexible




Post-Grisby, SSG or a petal plus gamble means you never really whiffed. Tutor up your answer (usually Chillens) and then discard one out of 15-25 cards means your tutored card has a 4-6% chance of being discarded, which is some good odds.
Pre-grisby, it's a little shakier since we depend on multiple spells, BUT... suppose you cast it on t1 on the play for one of your combo pieces. Land>Gamble, you're discarding one of 6 cards. Suppose you tutored for one piece of your 3-piece combo (mana, entomb, reanimation), you have a 50% chance of discarding one of your pieces. I feel that's much better value than hoping to topdeck the missing piece.
Additionally, I find myself gambling for one of: discard, fatty, reanimation. In those cases, I'm only protecting two pieces with the Gamble (because if the fatty gets hit, it's gravy - unless it's emmy and I don't have mana up)


Well, the argument is just as you said: late game value. Redfin requires thinking about the late game, where Tin Fins cares less. I actually never cast a top during the tournament but it's been very good in testing, especially with fetch lands (which is why I'm going up to 8 fetch and cutting a Plateau)
But really, if there was a colorless sorcery that cost 2 and let you ponder without a shuffle, it would probably see play. that's what Top does on the first 2 turns and only gets better.
(though maindecking top makes me wonder if the doomsday transformation might work. probly not but I'm dumb enough to try it)


Basically the tendrils is there so I don't have to loop. I've also had a couple situations in testing where Grisby whiffed on getting Emmy, but him attacking put opp into tendrils range that turn (yes, one more attack probably would have given me enough life to start looping but that's not guaranteed). And once where a tendrils gave me enough life pre-attack to keep bursting.
I mean, it's possible that tendrils could be cut. I'm using Brutality as a swiss army knife of discard outlet, hand disruption for opp, and deathrite/thalia kill and basically don't really want to spend 10 minute looping Emrakul. Also, tendrils let me win immediately under a pyrostatic pillar in the honor round of the tournament, where looping possibly would have killed me (maybe not with CoK recursion, though).
Tendrils feels to some like a win-more card but I see it as a win-NOW card. :)

(disclaimer: I'm still pretty noob with the deck so this could all be hot air)


Tendrils is fine, it was a part of the original building of this deck from my understanding, and when I first played I had a burning wish board specifically to grab tendrils. I just find that I don't mind taking the time to loop a couple of times, the job gets done. Besides my even in a long match, it's probably been ~10 min on the clock so time isn't a real issue.

Hmm, hard to argue with probabilities like that for gamble, it may be the thing to try. Plus it just seems to fit.

But if you're running tops main with a white splash then give in to the mentor plan! May be it is better than doomsday, maybe it's worse, but any miracles opponent will be on tilt, and let's be honest, the whole reason to play legacy is to frustrate anyone playing counterbalance.

[supachai]

Hey guys, I've been thinking about trying my hand at onion bursting. How is this deck doing for you guys lately? Is it viable in a meta that has a lot of BUG and Miracles?

Is there an up-to-date primer anywhere? Curious about matchup analysis and gameplan type stuff.

Been goldfishing lately and just playing casually on Cockatrice and it's probably the most fun I've had playing a legacy deck, though fighting through hate and fizzling after drawing 21 sometimes feelsbadman.

[jugglervr]

for gamble, it may be the thing to try. Plus it just seems to fit.
I feel like Gamble is in the slot of Lim Dul's Vault: it might get you what you need or it might screw you over. LDV is a bit better, but it's also double the mana cost so it feels like a wash.
Oh, and on the topic of gambling when you need a reanimator to go with your entomb, of course you entomb before the gamble, to reduce the odds of you discarding the entomb (unless you had to gamble for the entomb)


But if you're running tops main with a white splash then give in to the mentor plan! May be it is better than doomsday, maybe it's worse, but any miracles opponent will be on tilt, and let's be honest, the whole reason to play legacy is to frustrate anyone playing counterbalance.

I tried that but it just didn't work. People put me on BR Reanimator and left in Abrupt decay for the blood moons and animate dead that I don't play, and that just ate mentor alive. And not having cheap blue cantrips was a big hurdle. I couldn't get more than a couple guys out and they just didn't bring the pressure.

Believe me, I wanted it to be good. I was using Mentor and Confidant, then mentor and bitterblossom with a couple different demons and horrors and nothing was as good as just racing graveyard hate (which they diluted because they thought I was on reanimator). It was also awkward to have no reaction plan to combo decks because my SB was entirely focused on tilting midrange.


Hey guys, I've been thinking about trying my hand at onion bursting. How is this deck doing for you guys lately? Is it viable in a meta that has a lot of BUG and Miracles?
Bug isn't that bad. I fought through 3x DRS one game and DRS+Nihil Spellbomb in another. Grindy hate isn't hard to play around; you just have to be cautious. It's the oppressive stuff like Leylines and Rip that force really tough plays. I don't have data for miracles but resolved countertop is bad for most decks... Gotta be lucky maybe.


Is there an up-to-date primer anywhere? Curious about matchup analysis and gameplan type stuff.
Uh, you know where you are, right?

[.dk]

Hey guys, I've been thinking about trying my hand at onion bursting. How is this deck doing for you guys lately? Is it viable in a meta that has a lot of BUG and Miracles?

Is there an up-to-date primer anywhere? Curious about matchup analysis and gameplan type stuff.

Been goldfishing lately and just playing casually on Cockatrice and it's probably the most fun I've had playing a legacy deck, though fighting through hate and fizzling after drawing 21 sometimes feelsbadman.

The first page is still very up to date with how the deck works. Matchup analysis changes all the time based on the meta changing and our deck's changing. Not sure how much sense it makes to have that kind of detail somewhere pinned. It also very much depends on your sideboard plan. So, hard to definitively say one way or another. Come with detailed questions, and we'll try to help.

Seems really rare that you would be drawing 21 and fizzling - Acclimation and I did some data gathering a year and a half ago on fizzle rates with and without a chrome mox. It was insanely low either way.

[.dk]

But if you're running tops main with a white splash then give in to the mentor plan! May be it is better than doomsday, maybe it's worse, but any miracles opponent will be on tilt, and let's be honest, the whole reason to play legacy is to frustrate anyone playing counterbalance.

You're not effectively transforming into Doomsday without blue anyway, so that's a moot point with the build you are discussing.

[jugglervr]

You're not effectively transforming into Doomsday without blue anyway, so that's a moot point with the build you are discussing.

My brain knows this, but my heart is going to demand that I try it. ;o

[supachai]

Bug isn't that bad. I fought through 3x DRS one game and DRS+Nihil Spellbomb in another. Grindy hate isn't hard to play around; you just have to be cautious. It's the oppressive stuff like Leylines and Rip that force really tough plays. I don't have data for miracles but resolved countertop is bad for most decks... Gotta be lucky maybe.


Uh, you know where you are, right?

Haha, fair enough. I guess I wasn't sure if it was kept up to date since I'm still seeing stuff like Tendrils and LDV in the main, and no mention of Mentor SB plan. There is some matchup analysis but I guess I was looking for something more in depth. dk above has a point. I guess it is dependent on a lot of factors and always changing.


The first page is still very up to date with how the deck works. Matchup analysis changes all the time based on the meta changing and our deck's changing. Not sure how much sense it makes to have that kind of detail somewhere pinned. It also very much depends on your sideboard plan. So, hard to definitively say one way or another. Come with detailed questions, and we'll try to help.

Sure, I'll start off with a question. DnT seems like a weak matchup. There's games where you combo off turn 1 but if it's past turn 2 and they get Thalia or Revoker out, I feel like we have to jump though hoops to win. What do you name on blind Therapy usually? Is reactive SB or Mentor better against them?


Seems really rare that you would be drawing 21 and fizzling - Acclimation and I did some data gathering a year and a half ago on fizzle rates with and without a chrome mox. It was insanely low either way.

Oh yeah, it rarely ever happens. Maybe once every 20-30 times. Just saying it feels bad when it happens haha. And yes, I run one Chrome Mox and it has been immensely helpful as the 5th 0 mana source.

[.dk]

My brain knows this, but my heart is going to demand that I try it. ;o

So you want 3 LED, 4 SDT, 4 Gitaxian Probe, Act on Impulse, Tendrils, Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract, Shelldock Isle (you'll have to use a Petal to activate it). That's probably about as good as you're going to do, particularly if you're not running Burning Wish maindeck.





Sure, I'll start off with a question. DnT seems like a weak matchup. There's games where you combo off turn 1 but if it's past turn 2 and they get Thalia or Revoker out, I feel like we have to jump though hoops to win. What do you name on blind Therapy usually? Is reactive SB or Mentor better against them?

Yeah, D&T sucks these days. I miss the old pre-Thalia days of D&T. :)

The best strategy against them usually is to keep a fast hand. They don't board out their swords, so I don't think Mentor is the way to go, but I think we've had some unresolved debates about that. Thalia and Sanctum Prelate both make Mentor worse, along with wasteland and port putting additional pressure on our mana. Can't effectively chain spells to build up a Monk army.

Therapy - kind of depends on your hand. If you're on the draw, blind naming T1 and then passing the turn, I would name Thalia. That's going to slow down your cantrips to keep digging if you have to. Revoker is a pain in the ass sometimes - but is less detrimental to you developing your plan than Thalia is. If they have Revoker in play naming Griselbrand, usually my plan will be to try to sculpt a hand to be able to (or close to) going off twice. Emrakul them to wipe their board, then try to find a way to make Griselbrand after that. Alternatively, a lot of us have been running Collective Brutality maindeck lately, so you do have another answer for Revoker there. If you're planning to win right then, then obviously Swords to Plowshares.

[jugglervr]

Yeah, D&T sucks these days. I miss the old pre-Thalia days of D&T. :)

How bad is prelate on 2? Seems pretty oppressive. Do we just hope to outrace?

[supachai]

Yeah, D&T sucks these days. I miss the old pre-Thalia days of D&T. :)

The best strategy against them usually is to keep a fast hand. They don't board out their swords, so I don't think Mentor is the way to go, but I think we've had some unresolved debates about that. Thalia and Sanctum Prelate both make Mentor worse, along with wasteland and port putting additional pressure on our mana. Can't effectively chain spells to build up a Monk army.

Therapy - kind of depends on your hand. If you're on the draw, blind naming T1 and then passing the turn, I would name Thalia. That's going to slow down your cantrips to keep digging if you have to. Revoker is a pain in the ass sometimes - but is less detrimental to you developing your plan than Thalia is. If they have Revoker in play naming Griselbrand, usually my plan will be to try to sculpt a hand to be able to (or close to) going off twice. Emrakul them to wipe their board, then try to find a way to make Griselbrand after that. Alternatively, a lot of us have been running Collective Brutality maindeck lately, so you do have another answer for Revoker there. If you're planning to win right then, then obviously Swords to Plowshares.

That makes sense. I need to get some more post board games in.

Yeah, I think my plan against Revoker is to wipe their board with Emrakul but if they have Karakas they can bounce during combat before attackers are declared. I've been liking the 1-of Collective Brutality main. Usually doesn't come up that I need to loop it to win but it's a nice way to rip up their hand and board so it's not a dead card like Tendrils often is. I guess DnT really just has all the right tools against us haha.


How bad is prelate on 2? Seems pretty oppressive. Do we just hope to outrace?

Hard-cast Griselbrand via Rituals and Lotus Petals :)

[Zooligan]

Has anyone using the white board tried Pull from Eternity lately as anti-Surgical/DRS/Scooze/Faerie Macabre tech?

[.dk]

I've never had a Sanctum Prelate cast against me with this deck. Hardcasting Griselbrand is awful against the deck with 4 swords to plowshares and Karakas as you're probably not going to be able to combo off the same turn.

Basically, D&T sucks. Good luck. If you have room for Massacres, more Collective Brutality, or Massacre Wurm and are willing to sacrifice other matchups, then you can probably fix it. Good luck.

And yes, we tried Pull from Eternity in around 2013, along with another build using it and Serum Powder maindeck. It's pretty mediocre.

[Zooligan]

I've never had a Sanctum Prelate cast against me with this deck. Hardcasting Griselbrand is awful against the deck with 4 swords to plowshares and Karakas as you're probably not going to be able to combo off the same turn.

Basically, D&T sucks. Good luck. If you have room for Massacres, more Collective Brutality, or Massacre Wurm and are willing to sacrifice other matchups, then you can probably fix it. Good luck.

And yes, we tried Pull from Eternity in around 2013, along with another build using it and Serum Powder maindeck. It's pretty mediocre.

I had seen some posts from back in the day, but thought with more of the hate being exile-on-demand instead of RIP/LotV type hate, and already being in heavy white for the man-plan sideboard, and relying more on reanimation spells that don't target, that PfE might be more workable nowdays.

[.dk]

I had seen some posts from back in the day, but thought with more of the hate being exile-on-demand instead of RIP/LotV type hate, and already being in heavy white for the man-plan sideboard, and relying more on reanimation spells that don't target, that PfE might be more workable nowdays.

Well if you think it's got legs, by all means test it. I think it's too situational - doesn't mean my opinion is fact.

[jugglervr]

PfE might be more workable nowdays.

Be aware that if the imprinted card on a Chrome Mox is removed from exile, it's no longer imprinted (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/306683-chrome-mox-and-misthollow-griffin). One strike against PfE that I saw misinterpreted in some earlier pages of this thread.

[Jblinder]

Be aware that if the imprinted card on a Chrome Mox is removed from exile, it's no longer imprinted (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/306683-chrome-mox-and-misthollow-griffin). One strike against PfE that I saw misinterpreted in some earlier pages of this thread.

Yeah, Chrome Mox will no longer tap for mana, but getting the creature to the gy is usually the part that matters. Plus you can tap the mox for mana pre PfE. I'm not using PfE anymore, but it is still plenty good with Chrome Mox.

[jugglervr]

Yeah, Chrome Mox will no longer tap for mana, but getting the creature to the gy is usually the part that matters. Plus you can tap the mox for mana pre PfE. I'm not using PfE anymore, but it is still plenty good with Chrome Mox.

it's mana-neutral, though. sounds pretty durdly.

[Zooligan]

Seems even better with the Unmask version. Doubles as protection from GY hate and another way to get creatures in the yard.

[Acclimation]

I ran pull in my top 8 run back in 2013. Never brought it in, and never wanted it. There's better things to bring in, and cards that do their job better.

It's cute. But it got quickly cut after that one tournament.

[Zooligan]

I ran pull in my top 8 run back in 2013. Never brought it in, and never wanted it. There's better things to bring in, and cards that do their job better.

It's cute. But it got quickly cut after that one tournament.

At that time, how much exiling was being actively done by your deck (via Unmask and Chrome Mox) and in a targeted fashion by your opponents' hate (DRS/Scooze/Surgical/Macabre) vs passively and redundantly with things like Leyline/RIP?

[Acclimation]

At that time, how much exiling was being actively done by your deck (via Unmask and Chrome Mox) and in a targeted fashion by your opponents' hate (DRS/Scooze/Surgical/Macabre) vs passively and redundantly with things like Leyline/RIP?

Targeted hate was pretty common back in those days, as this deck was incredibly popular on the SCG opens during the first half of 2013. I brought it in versus Jund a few because I thought it would be good vs DRS/Nihil Spellbomb, and it was never relevant.

Any deck that it might be useful to bring in, we have better sideboard options to bring in: Needle, Chain, Massacre, Serenity, Silence (if you're playing against all the Delvers).

It took up sideboard slots that I would have much rather used on Massacre (for that tournament), and even today there are still cards I would run before Pull in the SB that are more useful.

It sounds like a good card in theory, but in practice it doesn't pull it's weight.

[Zooligan]

It sounds like a good card in theory, but in practice it doesn't pull it's weight.

nyuk ;)

Thanks for relating your past experiences with the deck and this card in particular.

[Acclimation]

nyuk ;)

Thanks for relating your past experiences with the deck and this card in particular.

That entire post was so that I could make that joke.

But the point still stands. I like Pull, I wanted to make it work, but there's just better things you can do with your 75.


Now if you wanted to do some off the wall build with that blue card Food Chain uses to go exile 3 Misthollow Griffins alongside a playset of Pull, Unmask, and FoW, to make some sort of weird reanimation deck... You would have a troll deck for FNM and nothing else.

[.dk]

That entire post was so that I could make that joke.

But the point still stands. I like Pull, I wanted to make it work, but there's just better things you can do with your 75.


Now if you wanted to do some off the wall build with that blue card Food Chain uses to go exile 3 Misthollow Griffins alongside a playset of Pull, Unmask, and FoW, to make some sort of weird reanimation deck... You would have a troll deck for FNM and nothing else.

Mmmm hot.

3 Manipulate Fate
3 Serum Powder
4 Unmask
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Pull from Eternity
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis
1 Collective Brutality

I gotta run this shit sometime to put people on tilt. Contagions in the sideboard. Yummmmm

[KaiSchafroth]

Mmmm hot.

3 Manipulate Fate
3 Serum Powder
4 Unmask
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Pull from Eternity
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis
1 Collective Brutality

I gotta run this shit sometime to put people on tilt. Contagions in the sideboard. Yummmmm



https://static.carthrottle.com/workspace/uploads/comments/4fb74fd6-6cdf-4440-8b4a-9b49751a7258.jpg

[.dk]

I'll grant you an Archer quote only if it's from Sea Tunt I or II:

“Shut up. Captain Murphy, how long have you been down here all alone?”
.
.
.
“Two years.”

Pull From Eternity builds are all that come out of that extreme loneliness at the bottom of the sea.

[MDHackbert]

Mmmm hot.

3 Manipulate Fate
3 Serum Powder
4 Unmask
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Pull from Eternity
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis
1 Collective Brutality

I gotta run this shit sometime to put people on tilt. Contagions in the sideboard. Yummmmm

For serious though, what would the fleshed out list with board look like?

[.dk]

For serious though, what would the fleshed out list with board look like?

Dude, not to be a dick but... didn't I just post that? I'm pretty sure you could extrapolate a manabase and a potential sideboard plan (reactive or transformational). Then test it.

Again - I think pull from eternity is trash. If you don't, fine. Build a list and test it and bring back data on your testing. Do some work instead of asking people to do it for you.

[Richard Cheese]

You would have a troll deck for FNM and nothing else.

Wait is that not what this entire thread is about?

[Acclimation]

For serious though, what would the fleshed out list with board look like?

4 lake of the dead
4 thran quarry
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 mana confluence

15 shadowborne apostle

[.dk]

4 lake of the dead
4 thran quarry
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 mana confluence

15 shadowborne apostle

naiiiiiiiiled it. Although I think would include at least 2 Cavern of Souls. Don't want those apostles getting countered!

[jugglervr]

Update on Redfin (list upways a bit): the deck folds pretty hard to miracles, of course. 2x Sneak Attack in the board were worthless in testing; too expensive and we don't have the right mass of creatures to make them work. I think the play is just more serenity and maybe even a green splash for decay. The deck also misses discard; 6 sources is a little low.

Going to try a bit more with more aggressive mulliganing. The couple times I was pretty aggressive, the chancellor backup and t1 kills were pretty fun (for me. and informative for my testing partner).

Also, chancellor was a dud a couple times; i accidentally discarded him above Grisby and shut off my shallow graves pretty badly. Going to have to be more careful about that.

[Kobra_D]

Update on Redfin (list upways a bit): the deck folds pretty hard to miracles, of course. 2x Sneak Attack in the board were worthless in testing; too expensive and we don't have the right mass of creatures to make them work. I think the play is just more serenity and maybe even a green splash for decay. The deck also misses discard; 6 sources is a little low.

Going to try a bit more with more aggressive mulliganing. The couple times I was pretty aggressive, the chancellor backup and t1 kills were pretty fun (for me. and informative for my testing partner).

Also, chancellor was a dud a couple times; i accidentally discarded him above Grisby and shut off my shallow graves pretty badly. Going to have to be more careful about that.

I like to run 8 discard in the main, 4 unmask and 4 therapy, so yeah I would say 6 is a bit on the low end. Honestly, I would probably drop the chrome mox and the tendrils to get up to 2 more discard spells.

With Collective, it may be harder and take some extra time to win, but it does what tendrils does with more. There are very fringe cases that would warrant tendrils the better card. You can argue that looping less times feels better and saves time but I would rather be a little more resilient with another cabal therapy than to win the game a little earlier when I would win anyways.

Green is a good splash for miracles but green and white starts to seem greedy. I'm still advocating for the white splash with mentor transformation. It has been really good against miracles decks while still being able to leave in the combo, granted I do go a little lighter on reanimation spells but the option to just win always remains there.

I have played sneak attack in the SB previously and I boarded fatties in. It makes the deck a bad sneak attack deck, but when your opponent dilutes their game plan for graveyard hate it can easily get the job done.

[jugglervr]

I like to run 8 discard in the main, 4 unmask and 4 therapy, so yeah I would say 6 is a bit on the low end. Honestly, I would probably drop the chrome mox and the tendrils to get up to 2 more discard spells.
After cutting Chancellor, I'm up to 11 discard in the main (since discard is a bit more flexible disruption source than chancellor; if i don't have it T0 and then draw it, that's a punch in the gut)
I don't feel like the deck has enough black to justify 4 unmask. I always feel like I don't want to pitch anything unless i've drawn 14. I'm leaving 2 in because they can occasionally be helpful pre-gris, and are actually very helpful post-gris. I expect them to be a flex slot, for sideboarding, though (since i'd rather have more effective hate early and can live without their flexibility post-gris)
I'm also tentatively taking out tendrils. I still kind of feel like it's an auto-include, BUT i've been whiffing on kids lately, so i'm dropping tendrils for children #2 to make looping more of a guarantee.


With Collective, it may be harder and take some extra time to win, but it does what tendrils does with more. There are very fringe cases that would warrant tendrils the better card. You can argue that looping less times feels better and saves time but I would rather be a little more resilient with another cabal therapy than to win the game a little earlier when I would win anyways.
I'm actually already on 2x collective brutality. The ability to kill a hatebear pre-board has proved to be huge, and the escalation is a nice uncounterable discard outlet that still forces them to counter it, opening the doors to more action.


Green is a good splash for miracles but green and white starts to seem greedy. I'm still advocating for the white splash with mentor transformation. It has been really good against miracles decks while still being able to leave in the combo, granted I do go a little lighter on reanimation spells but the option to just win always remains there.
Tried it. I don't have the mass of cantrips in BR to make mentor good.


Wondering about Silence. It doesn't really seem all that amazing, because it's basically another discard spell in that when you cast it, they HAVE to counter it so it effectively discards a card for them. I get that it's good at stopping combo mid-stroke but it feels medium vs control (esp. with all the discard I'm already running AND with the other cards we need to bring in, like serenity). Can someone change my mind?

[Kobra_D]

After cutting Chancellor, I'm up to 11 discard in the main (since discard is a bit more flexible disruption source than chancellor; if i don't have it T0 and then draw it, that's a punch in the gut)
I don't feel like the deck has enough black to justify 4 unmask. I always feel like I don't want to pitch anything unless i've drawn 14. I'm leaving 2 in because they can occasionally be helpful pre-gris, and are actually very helpful post-gris. I expect them to be a flex slot, for sideboarding, though (since i'd rather have more effective hate early and can live without their flexibility post-gris)
I'm also tentatively taking out tendrils. I still kind of feel like it's an auto-include, BUT i've been whiffing on kids lately, so i'm dropping tendrils for children #2 to make looping more of a guarantee.


I'm actually already on 2x collective brutality. The ability to kill a hatebear pre-board has proved to be huge, and the escalation is a nice uncounterable discard outlet that still forces them to counter it, opening the doors to more action.


Tried it. I don't have the mass of cantrips in BR to make mentor good.


Wondering about Silence. It doesn't really seem all that amazing, because it's basically another discard spell in that when you cast it, they HAVE to counter it so it effectively discards a card for them. I get that it's good at stopping combo mid-stroke but it feels medium vs control (esp. with all the discard I'm already running AND with the other cards we need to bring in, like serenity). Can someone change my mind?

When I first started playing TinFins I inevitably came across CalebD's deck tech and matches on youtube. Whether this was his thought or he was just relaying information that had already been here I remember him saying something along the lines that "both Emrakul and tendrils represent a win-con, you already have Emmy to loop through your deck so tendrils isn't necessary."

Yeah, BR isn't as good for mentor, but the point isn't to break mentor, the point is to stick him early, make a monk or two, and then just beat for a little at a time. The opponent has to answer mentor, answer the ability for us go off, and find a threat to end the game. Although, mentor is a lot better with brainstorms you do have 2 tops which you can always just spin those beyblades to make a few tokens.

I can't stand silence, because I want 1 at most 2, but I only want it pre going off??? It gets weird.

How are you feeling without chancellor? Has 11 discard felt good?

[.dk]

When I first started playing TinFins I inevitably came across CalebD's deck tech and matches on youtube. Whether this was his thought or he was just relaying information that had already been here I remember him saying something along the lines that "both Emrakul and tendrils represent a win-con, you already have Emmy to loop through your deck so tendrils isn't necessary."


At that time, you could make that argument, but it depended on what kind of meta you were playing against. Tendrils was still very good against Death and Taxes, and a hedge against Ensnaring Bridge that you just folded to game 1, or didn't bring the right cards in game 2. I think you could make that argument either way.

Now, however, I don't see an excuse to not run at least 1 Collective Brutality taking the Tendrils slot. It does almost everything Tendrils did, and a lot more obviously.



I can't stand silence, because I want 1 at most 2, but I only want it pre going off??? It gets weird.


Silence is great in certain metas. When decks like Thresh and fast combo are prevalent, Silence is pretty great. I wouldn't run it right now in the current meta.

[jugglervr]

How are you feeling without chancellor? Has 11 discard felt good?

It's felt great! I was always sad to topdeck my first chancellor on t1's draw, but am never sad to see a thoughtseize.
Tested vs bant aggro yesterday. He sided 14 cards against me via the shuffle in method, so i think he removed too much pressure.

[Nocley]

The real issue I've had with the Mentor SB plan recently is that it just isn't good enough against a lot of other combo lists. Against all fair decks (except the 4c Control/Czech pile) mentor usually can get there by forcing them to dilute their deck enough. But against combo, where we don't have any other disruption for them besides the discard (which using recent builds is lower MD), they only need one thing to disrupt us, and then they typically can combo off before we rebuild. I'm off the Mentor SB for a while, going back to Show and Tell as our setup.

[Richard Cheese]

The real issue I've had with the Mentor SB plan recently is that it just isn't good enough against a lot of other combo lists. Against all fair decks (except the 4c Control/Czech pile) mentor usually can get there by forcing them to dilute their deck enough. But against combo, where we don't have any other disruption for them besides the discard (which using recent builds is lower MD), they only need one thing to disrupt us, and then they typically can combo off before we rebuild. I'm off the Mentor SB for a while, going back to Show and Tell as our setup.

Why would you bring in Mentor against combo though? Maindeck is generally pretty solid in those matchups so minimal changes are needed.

[Nocley]

Why would you bring in Mentor against combo though? Maindeck is generally pretty solid in those matchups so minimal changes are needed.

I usually don't for G2. But when you see surgicals and other grave hate, I always feel like I need a second plan for when they go against our first win con, since we can't typically rebuild as fast as the other blue based combo decks after the first attempt. The way I've seen the matches play out is that we need to have a T1 with protection, or we probably lose.

[Koby]

I usually don't for G2. But when you see surgicals and other grave hate, I always feel like I need a second plan for when they go against our first win con, since we can't typically rebuild as fast as the other blue based combo decks after the first attempt. The way I've seen the matches play out is that we need to have a T1 with protection, or we probably lose.

If you're facing combo with this regularity, then yes you want Silence to both protect against a surprise Surgical as well as a preemptive disruption.

[Kobra_D]

At that time, you could make that argument, but it depended on what kind of meta you were playing against. Tendrils was still very good against Death and Taxes, and a hedge against Ensnaring Bridge that you just folded to game 1, or didn't bring the right cards in game 2. I think you could make that argument either way.

Now, however, I don't see an excuse to not run at least 1 Collective Brutality taking the Tendrils slot. It does almost everything Tendrils did, and a lot more obviously.


When Brutality was first spoiled I was not only skeptical but actively against the card. It just seemed too slow to do what I want. And as much as I still kind of have that gut feeling towards it, it has been amazing every single time. So, I would definitely agree that having access to at least one helps tremendously. But if you have CoBru in the main, then tendrils serves even less of a purpose. It can save some time when looping, and there is nothing wrong with ToA it's a great win-con, but Emrakul does it anywyas, and CoBru helps with some of the fringe cases as a win-con while the other modes are also good.



Silence is great in certain metas. When decks like Thresh and fast combo are prevalent, Silence is pretty great. I wouldn't run it right now in the current meta.

Granted, silence has its place and I've seen older decklists that ran it in the main. But I've only been playing TinFins for a year and it seems less necessary at the moment.



The real issue I've had with the Mentor SB plan recently is that it just isn't good enough against a lot of other combo lists. Against all fair decks (except the 4c Control/Czech pile) mentor usually can get there by forcing them to dilute their deck enough. But against combo, where we don't have any other disruption for them besides the discard (which using recent builds is lower MD), they only need one thing to disrupt us, and then they typically can combo off before we rebuild. I'm off the Mentor SB for a while, going back to Show and Tell as our setup.

Mentor has been exclusively for miracles and D&T. Miracles finds it hard to fight on the same access, and D&T has sooo much stuff to board in post board that the match up sucks (it does for me at least whose roommate has a D&T SB with about 13 cards to swap).

And so in those 2 match ups I brought in all 4 mentors. D&T has still been annoying so I am trying Dread of night, massacre is a good card but I want something that sticks.

I don't know if I would bring in mentors for combo match ups. Maybe as a 1 of just to have as an out to grave hate, but I would rather board in my disenchant/needle effects to interact with my opponent.

[.dk]

When Brutality was first spoiled I was not only skeptical but actively against the card. It just seemed too slow to do what I want. And as much as I still kind of have that gut feeling towards it, it has been amazing every single time. So, I would definitely agree that having access to at least one helps tremendously. But if you have CoBru in the main, then tendrils serves even less of a purpose. It can save some time when looping, and there is nothing wrong with ToA it's a great win-con, but Emrakul does it anywyas, and CoBru helps with some of the fringe cases as a win-con while the other modes are also good.


Yes, that was my point. Collective Brutality is much better than Tendrils in this deck. Don't run Tendrils.



Granted, silence has its place and I've seen older decklists that ran it in the main. But I've only been playing TinFins for a year and it seems less necessary at the moment.

When the meta game is full of soft counter spells and combo decks, Silence is great. Otherwise, probably not.




Mentor has been exclusively for miracles and D&T. Miracles finds it hard to fight on the same access, and D&T has sooo much stuff to board in post board that the match up sucks (it does for me at least whose roommate has a D&T SB with about 13 cards to swap).

And so in those 2 match ups I brought in all 4 mentors. D&T has still been annoying so I am trying Dread of night, massacre is a good card but I want something that sticks.

I don't know if I would bring in mentors for combo match ups. Maybe as a 1 of just to have as an out to grave hate, but I would rather board in my disenchant/needle effects to interact with my opponent.

What? I don't understand boarding Mentor in against Death and Taxes. It plays into their gameplan - it's slower for us and tougher to cast. They put pressure on our manabase to slow us down. I would much rather stay on the main deck plan and board in some answers for some of their cards (chain of vapor, swords to plowshares, serenity, etc.)

Mentor is awful against other combo decks, unless you're expecting like... 4 Leylines out of them or something incredibly hatful.

[Kobra_D]

Yes, that was my point. Collective Brutality is much better than Tendrils in this deck. Don't run Tendrils.


When the meta game is full of soft counter spells and combo decks, Silence is great. Otherwise, probably not.

What? I don't understand boarding Mentor in against Death and Taxes. It plays into their gameplan - it's slower for us and tougher to cast. They put pressure on our manabase to slow us down. I would much rather stay on the main deck plan and board in some answers for some of their cards (chain of vapor, swords to plowshares, serenity, etc.)

Mentor is awful against other combo decks, unless you're expecting like... 4 Leylines out of them or something incredibly hatful.

Mentor was does help, 4 cards can now completely fight off axis to a D&T play who overboards, but the match up is still hard and I'm now trying dread of night. Massacre's might be best but I didn't want the one time effect.

[Zooligan]

I've been having good results with this, esp vs. Murkels:

1 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

1 Children of Korlis
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study

4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
4 Unmask
3 Collective Brutality

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Autumn's Veil
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Reverent Silence

D&T is a nightmare though.

[Kobra_D]

I've been having good results with this, esp vs. Murkels:

1 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

1 Children of Korlis
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study

4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
4 Unmask
3 Collective Brutality

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Autumn's Veil
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Reverent Silence

D&T is a nightmare though.

The sideboard looks like it is set up mostly for control decks, and then 3 faerie macabre for other combo like reanimator, storm, dredge?

You could go -3 Faerie, -1 veil, +4 massacre. D&T becomes much better, granted, the combo match up is worse.

[Zooligan]

The sideboard looks like it is set up mostly for control decks, and then 3 faerie macabre for other combo like reanimator, storm, dredge?

You could go -3 Faerie, -1 veil, +4 massacre. D&T becomes much better, granted, the combo match up is worse.

With BR Reanimator on the rise I think the Macabre is essential. Having Veil early is nice in the miracle matchup. Idk I guess you gotta pick your battles. I think I'd cut the Rev Silence before the Macabre, but with BR on such a tear I'm thinking more Leylines will start showing up. Right now I'm seeing more Delver and D&T than stuff I need Rev for. I'm up for suggestions.

I'm considering replacing the Revs with some number of Echoing Truth to bounce leylines and other multiple non-enchantment problems (Deathrite I'm lookin at you) but that's a big mana difference.

[splorf]

Anyone ever considered Insolent Neonate in the spot of Looting? Instant discard end of turn with Shallow Grave lets Emrakul moonwalk onto the board. Probably it could even make Cabal Therapy viable? Requires sth. like SDT to dig for spells though.

[MDHackbert]

I played in a 21-man GPT for Vegas byes yesterday. 5 rounds, cut to top 8. I went 3-2 and made it in as the 7th seed as i had the best breakers of all the 6 pointers going into round 5 and i beat the pair-up there. I made it to top 4, but lost in G3 where i made a judgement call that i could pass the turn at 30 life and finish him next turn. I was a bit sloppy in that execution and i put myself in a situation where i couldn't play around the karakas he had once he topdecked a smasher. He had 2 mimics on board, and i likely could have killed them and also done another round of children and finished with dreams after passing. The 15 life loss squeezed me too hard.

Rd. 1, W, 2-1, Death and Taxes
Rd. 2, W, 2-0, Eldrazi Stompy
Rd. 3, L, 1-2, Miracles
Rd. 4, L, 1-2, Czech Pile
Rd. 5, W, 2-0, Burn

Top 8, W, 2-1, Miracles (same player from swiss)
Top 4, L, 1-2, Eldrazi Stompy (different player from one in swiss)

The deck i played was as follows:

Creatures:10
1 Children of Korlis
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:37
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
2 Reanimate
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
3 Unmask

Lands:13
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Swamp

Sideboard:15
2 Pithing Needle
1 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
2 Sickening Dreams
2 Massacre
2 Gemstone Caverns

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

[Kobra_D]

I played in a 21-man GPT for Vegas byes yesterday. 5 rounds, cut to top 8. I went 3-2 and made it in as the 7th seed as i had the best breakers of all the 6 pointers going into round 5 and i beat the pair-up there. I made it to top 4, but lost in G3 where i made a judgement call that i could pass the turn at 30 life and finish him next turn. I was a bit sloppy in that execution and i put myself in a situation where i couldn't play around the karakas he had once he topdecked a smasher. He had 2 mimics on board, and i likely could have killed them and also done another round of children and finished with dreams after passing. The 15 life loss squeezed me too hard.

Rd. 1, W, 2-1, Death and Taxes
Rd. 2, W, 2-0, Eldrazi Stompy
Rd. 3, L, 1-2, Miracles
Rd. 4, L, 1-2, Czech Pile
Rd. 5, W, 2-0, Burn

Top 8, W, 2-1, Miracles (same player from swiss)
Top 4, L, 1-2, Eldrazi Stompy (different player from one in swiss)

The deck i played was as follows:

Creatures:10
1 Children of Korlis
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:37
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
2 Reanimate
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
3 Unmask

Lands:13
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Swamp

Sideboard:15
2 Pithing Needle
1 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
2 Sickening Dreams
2 Massacre
2 Gemstone Caverns

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

Gemstone Cavern?

What brought you to this?

Life loss ins't great but why not just go for a rainbow land like city of brass or temporary land like tendo ice bridge. They always provide color fixing where cavern could legitimately be a wastes.

[MDHackbert]

@Caverns
Several pages back, someone had a spoils of the vault list with it and i was intrigued. Having played 10 matches with it so far, I have had it matter a negligible number of times. I usually straight swap 2 swamps out on the draw for Caverns 3-4 to increase the visibility and "steal the play back". I have never had an issue where it tapping for only colorless was an issue. The only busted start i can remember was using it on the draw to shallow a G-Dad against burn on their EoT1. I'm not sold I like it and would likely rather have (in the main) either 2 more fetches, or a fetch and a scrubland. This would free up SB space for anything else as well.

[Jblinder]

@Caverns
Several pages back, someone had a spoils of the vault list with it and i was intrigued. Having played 10 matches with it so far, I have had it matter a negligible number of times. I usually straight swap 2 swamps out on the draw for Caverns 3-4 to increase the visibility and "steal the play back". I have never had an issue where it tapping for only colorless was an issue. The only busted start i can remember was using it on the draw to shallow a G-Dad against burn on their EoT1. I'm not sold I like it and would likely rather have (in the main) either 2 more fetches, or a fetch and a scrubland. This would free up SB space for anything else as well.

One reason I was playing Caverns in that build is because I had to play Pull from Eternity in the main (mandatory as Spoils can easily exile the Emrakul leaving me few paths to victory without Pull). Caverns not only "steals the play" in that list but can also proactively Exile Griselbrand. It's a pretty marginal card even with the Pull interaction imo, but it's obviously sweet (in the fun sense if not the competitive sense) so glad you're trying it.

I did have a really sick play with it once on mtgo against a guy who had played Extirpate on me post SB in a previous match. In game 2 I ran the turn zero make Griselbrand off dark ritual and entomb/grave. Drew 14 on his end step and while I couldn't find the turn 1 win, the 14 cards were enough to get there on turn 2 or 3 after stripping his hand. And he had the Extirpate! Felt good. Felt really good.

That spoils build is really bad, but it is super fun when it works.

[Ingo]

That spoils build is really bad, but it is super fun when it works.

Ever since you mentioned Spoils of the vault though (not sure if it was you, it was some pages ago), I've been intrigued by the card.

Let's say Spoils will kill you 1 in 5 games (just an example, Im no good at statistics). As reanimator-versions have a very high game1 killrate, Spoils would lower the game1 killrate as it would make you loose 1 on 5 games you'd otherwise won. So not worth it in game1.

However, reanimatorversions usually have a much worse game2, with your opponent boarding in the hate and mull for counters and deathrite. And at the same time, your deck becomes less consistent as you board in counterhate. So spoils might be an interesting postboard card, as it could be a tutor for a combopiece but also for a counterhatecard (like 1 of the 4 decays you boarded in), raising consistency and means to deal with opposing hate.
So maybe, in unfavorable matchups and in postboard games, the gains of having a 1-mana tutor for any of your 4-of cards, outweighs the fact that it will kill you in 1/5th of the games. You'd have to evaluate if the massive lifeloss is compatible though with Tin-Fins, which wants to win in the same turn (and needs life to pay for grisel activations) or BR Reanimator (which runs Reanimate).

I found two decks (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14875&d=289715&f=LE)on mtgtop8 running Spoils as a sideboard card, both Oops All Spells with a transformational sideboardplan into Belcher. These combodecks do not have any lifeloss-effects besides spoils, but ofcourse TinFIns and Br Rea do. A reanimatorversion based on LED-Grisel-UnburialRites (as in Burning Reanimator) however can afford to wait a turn to pay life for a Griseldraw (in comparison to Tin-Fins), or does not run Reanimate (in comparison to Br Rea).
This is just theorycrafting though, too bad Im no good at maths or I'd try to calculate some statistics to determinate how bad a matchup should be, to make Spoils a worthwhile card to board in.

EDIT: Couldn't resist and googled the formula.
HYPGEOMDIST(0;15;4;52) is the chance of not (the zero in the formula) finding any one of 4 copies out of 15 draws with 52 cards (T1 on the draw), or 24,4%. I took 15 draws as it would take you to 5 remaining life, which seems a minimum in between fetching a land and being bolted (there's 15,11% chance of paying 19 life and not finding what you named).

[Jblinder]

I played 20 leagues (100 Matches) as clone103 on mtgo and kept track of my results in a spreadsheet. SB never changed and main board was always within 2 cards of the list provided below. Thought I'd share the important stuff/records vs each archetype/general SB stuff/etc. Hope you all get something out of it.

Overall record: 59-41. Lost my last match to not hit the 60% threshold and it was also a trophy match--boo. Was going to be very happy if I could hit 65%, and satisfied at 60...almost, but overall a disappointment.

Pre-board record: 60-40. This seemed surprisingly low to me. This is a game 1 powerhouse deck, and I def think I was winning at a higher clip prior to this 100 matches. I only play Fins variants, so people sniping me and mulling to hands with DRS/FOW more aggressively could be a factor.

Post-board record: 79-69. This, on the other hand, seems surprisingly high. If this deck is winning even 50% of SB games, that is a very good sign. I think this shows my SB plan is generally strong.

The Deck:

Creatures (6)
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul the Aeons Torn

Artifacts (5)
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

Spells (35)
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Collective Brutality
4 Unmask
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Careful Study
1 Abrupt Decay

Lands (14)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push
2 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Reverent Silence

Build notes:

2 Thoughtseize: Strongly feel TS>Therapy. Pre board I think Therapy is slightly better, but post board I think TS reliability is crucial in many matchups. I'll discuss in sideboarding section. I'd always still play at least 1 Therapy as it is sometimes a sac outlet when you need to make another Griselbrand next turn, or turns Children into discard.

2 Gitaxian Probe: Second Probe has recently become second Collective Brutality, which has been overperforming, and I need all the help I can get vs Grixis Delver.

2 Careful Study: I think 1 is mandatory in all 4xGriselbrand builds, but could see making the second something else (Ponder or Probe, most likely)...I like 2. Often board out, as they become much worse post where you often trim Griselbrands anyway and it's much more dangerous to throw him into the yard because of Surgical Extraction. Seriously can't stress how much better Careful Study + Griselbrand hands are than almost anything else game 1. Not even completely embarrassing when you can't bin a Griselbrand; it still digs 2 cards, and usually you can pitch something redundant.

1 Abrupt Decay: Similar to Brutality in that it's inefficient but gets the job done. Great game 1 out to Chalice and Counterbalance lock. Kills DRS in a pinch. Pitches to Unmask. Cuttable, but I'd want to make room for the third in the board, if so.

1 Island: I think this is important, though I wish that I could play Tropical Island either instead-of or in addition to Bayou. Don't think I want to leave home without Island though...I think Chrome Mox would have to get cut for me to get the Trop in.


Results:

5-0 Trophies: 0 <DAMMIT!>
4-1s: 6 (4 of these started with 4-0 and I lost all, as I am a choke artist)
3-2s: 8
2-3s: 5
1-4s: 1
0-5s: 0

Miracles: 8-2 I obviously ran hot here, but I think my board plan is very good (I'll outline below) and I am aiming to make this matchup as strong as possible. I think this list is probably a small dog at worst vs. a good pilot and at least a slight favorite vs a suboptimal pilot. Both of my losses were to players with lots of trophies (ThisIsaCatInTheHat and lllllll)

Grixis Delver: 4-7. What can I say? This one just feels rough, and I haven't figured out how to solve it post board. Ideas welcome, I'll outline my plan below.

BUG Delver: 3-3. Fairly similar to above...both are a small sample, but for whatever reason this matchup feels more manageable. I think Stifle and/or Cabal Therapy from Grixis really push it over the top vs us. Two of these wins were against malimujo (also lost once to him) and m0ller, so I wasn't playing chumps.

Canadian Threshold: 2-2. Probably worse for us than BUG, also because of Stifle.

Aluren: 2-0. This is probably the most favorable of the DRS/FOW decks, as those are the main cards that are positioned well vs us, rather than every single card in some of the above decks!

Czech Pile: 0-4. This matchup feels similarly miserable, if not worse, than Grixis delver. There is often more disruption in the main (Spell Snare/Spell Pierce/Thoughtseize) and Snapcasters make life difficult post board because making them discard Surgical is no longer enough. Certainly not happy this deck seems to be on the rise.

Eldrazi Aggro: 1-4. I wouldn't have predicted this result, but I have to admit my one win was actually very lucky. I came back from an almost unwinnable position where I was at 2, facing Reality Smasher and Thought Knot, and had no cards in hand. And he had a Leyline of the Void in play (though I had Griselbrand in yard already). Shallow Grave off the top and some luck/tight play was enough to pull out a really close one. I don't know, it doesn't feel like it should be this bad--I do think I had below average draws across the board. I remember several games just bricking on Reanimation for several turns while churning with Brainstorms and Ponders, and it also felt like they had turn 1 Chalice (or turn 0 leyline post board without mulling much) more than average. Did win a post SB game vs Qernavak where he mulled to zero game 2 (all skill baby), but ofc lost the match.

Big Eldrazi: 2-1

ANT/TES: 4-1 (2-1 ANT, 2-0 TES)

Burn: 4-0

Belcher: 3-1

Elves: 1-1

Manaless Dredge/LED Dredge: 4-0 (3-0 vs Manaless; has anyone ever lost this matchup? It's soooo good).

Painter: 1-1

Turbo Depths: 0-1

Mono Red Sneak "Big Red": 2-0

Sneak and Show/Omnitell: 3-3

Tin Fins: 1-0 baby! Sorry Kaluma.

RB Reanimator: 3-1

UB Reanimator: 3-0 All of these Reanimator matchups feel like they should be coin flips (if not worse because they have Reanimate advantage), but for whatever reason I keep winning.

Stoneblade: 2-1 Apparently these decks still exist?

UG TitanPost: 0-1

Nic Fit: 1-2 I know this should be good, but they do have tools...DRS and Cabal Therapy, Surgical post. It's not a bye.

Death and Taxes: 0-1 Underrepped on mtgo. It's a scary matchup, but in my limited experience not quite as bad as some of you are making it out to be? I hope? I'm probably making room for third Massacre for GP Vegas.

"Other" 5-3


SB Plans for Key matchups:

Miracles: -2 Careful Study, -2 Probe, -2 Griselbrand, -1 Chrome Mox. +2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Duress, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Reverent Silence. Surgical isn't super awesome, but the first one has enough utility...counters Snapcaster, shuffles if they've been hiding with top, acts as pseudo-discard. I would never want to draw 2, so I board in 1. Same with Rev Silence. It's an ok answer to Counterbalance but drawing 2 would always be bad.

What is most interesting is that I treat Miracles a lot differently than I used to. I no longer try to mulligan to/jam the combo as fast as possible and pray. Granted, there are hands where you have little choice, but in general I prefer to slow down, which seems counterproductive, but really without fearing the lock (due to Abrupt Decay) you are often able to sculpt a winning turn with discard. I prefer discard heavy hands to even Ritual/Entomb/SG hands post board, since most times jamming the combo in the dark just loses to FOW or Surgical. It's important to save at least one discard spell for the turn you go off. Don't be afraid to say go few times to turn on those Unmasks. Post board vs Miracles is where Thoughtseize over Cabal Therapy shines the most. It is CRUCIAL to never...ever...miss. And there are far too many cards to play around, that you can't even come close to guaranteeing a good outcome off of a blind Therapy. I would never cut the first Therapy from the deck, as it is on occasion a useful tool as a sacrifice outlet when you need to make Griselbrand again next turn, or it can rarely turn Children into another discard spell. But I strongly feel TS is the better card in this deck, primarily because you need the reliability post board (in this and other matchups).

I think this matchup is a big reason to play green.

All DRS/FOW decks (Grixis and BUG Delver/Aluren/Czech/etc):

-2 Careful Study, -2 Probe, -2 Griselbrand. +2 Fatal Push, +2 Duress, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 CoV. If I have 2x Collective Brutality in main instead of 1 probe I board in the same cards generally and cut the Abrupt Decay if they have Wasteland, as I hate fetching Bayou and want to fetch Island.

I haven't been doing well here...It just seems tough, but I think this plan is the best I've got. Maybe City of Solitude could be good? But it's so slow...

vs Burn side out all the stuff that deals damage to you (this is the spot where TS life loss vs Therapy does matter a lot, but it is a favorable matchup nonetheless). Reverent Silences shine here as some Burn plays Leyline, some play Pyrostatic Pillar/Vortex, but they ALL play Eidolon of the Great Revel. Gotcha.

The rest of the matchups are mainly obvious. I usually bring in Reverent Silence vs anyone who almost certainly has Leyline, and just the CoVs vs the maybes:

EDIT: So much for tuning to beat Miracles!

[supachai]

So with Miracles gone, how do you guys see the future of Tin Fins? Combo and Elves will get more popular, which is generally good for us. Delver might get played more too, which is probably not a good thing. Grave hate in general might become more prevalent, at least temporarily, since decks will not have to dedicate as many side board slots to Miracles. Fewer Abrupt Decays and more Extractions/RIP/etc won't be fun.

What are you guys replacing your tops with in the main? I only had 1. The obvious answer would be another dig spell, but is Preordain good enough? I was considering a second copy of Collective Brutality. Never unhappy to see my lone copy. Good against Delver and hate bears in addition to being discard and an outlet (and a win condition). Man that card does everything.

I think the Mentor plan gets a bit better now with fewer Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decays running around as well.

Here's what I have tentatively.

//Creatures
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

//Instants
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance

//Sorceries
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
1 Reanimate

//Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

//Lands
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Monastery Mentor
SB: 3 Dark Confidant
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls

[Karhumies]

So with Miracles gone, how do you guys see the future of Tin Fins?

What are you guys replacing your tops with in the main? I only had 1.

I predict a bunch of Uxy tempo, value and combo decks with SB Cages and Surgicals flooding into the format.

- Delver variants (Grixis, BUG, 4c) for fast clock combined with tax counters
- Shardless/Stoneforge/Pernicious Deed value based midrange aimed to win delver/aggro MUs with a bunch of control toolboxing
- Food Chain, Aluren, random combo decks running FoW now that Miracles is gone

The bad thing is, playing versus Miracles variants was more straightforward than trying to figure out which of these decks the opponent is actually on, and which grave hate are they most likely running in the sb based on that info.

As for top:
If you are running less than 4 Probe/Ponder, upping the count by 1 is a good choice. If you have both at 4, Preordain and Sleight of Hand (if you prefer keeping your mana open to play some mind games) seem like the next best things to me.

For disruption, extra Unmask/Spell Pierce/Thoughtseize/Collective Brutality/Abrupt Decay/bounce spell/Daze are all valid options.

Personally, I have not sleeved up Tin Fins in a loooong time, but I would probably go for a 1-of Daze. It's a versatile card against a lot of nasty stuff both pre and post sb.

[thecrav]

Wrote some thoughts about post-ban changes to the sideboard, especially the Mentor transformative sideboard:

https://blog.seemsgood.com/thoughts-on-changes-to-the-tin-fins-sideboard-post-top-ban/

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You missed where Silence becomes pretty amazing, and also that Pull from Eternity is pretty sexy these days with all the exile happening. Additionally, there's Leyline of Sanctity where no discard, burn or sacrifice effects can be used. Stifle is a concern right now also, and 2 basics is better now.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Kobra_D]

So I took RB TinFins with me this weekend to GP Richmond to play in some legacy side events. I only managed to get in 1 but ran well (3-1), and so far what I've seen from the meta is, a lot of delver/tempo variants. Sultai delver, Noble BUG, Grixis Pyromancer, Grixis Delver, Czech Pile (). And then more chalice decks than I care to see.

Combo was more prevalent, or at least more represented at the winning tables, but a lot of side board were all over the place. Not a ton of grave hate as I would have expected. Also, a ridiculous amount of surgical extractions but almost no faerie macabre's or leyline's to get in my way. Sideboards seemed to be gered to dealing with storm and sneak and show a lot more.

Still a small sample. I only saw about 70 decks played from the north east/mid east coast section, but maybe it will help everyone else prepare for a big event.

Good Luck.

[MDHackbert]

I got a top 8 at another Legacy GPT with my updated nearly mono black list (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/all-in-tin-fins/). 2-2 in the swiss and lost in the quarters.
Swiss: 2-2
Rd1 Aluren: 2-0
Rd2 Burn: 2-1
Rd3 Maverick: 1-2
Rd4 Burn: 1-2
Top8 Mav (rematch from rd 3): 1-2

The mav player and the 2nd burn player both had Leyline of the Void after board and i couldn't get to Serenity in time. Makes me wonder if I should run 4x if Leylines appear a lot locally. OG Thalia also squeezed the mana development a lot out of the Mav opponent. Iona in the board was great against Burn and Aluren. I expected Elesh to do more work against Mav until I saw Leyline.

[MrFrowny_]

So I've been thinking about building this deck for awhile now but I had a question;

1. Why is the deck not running Tendrils anymore? Is Emrakul just better?

[DNSolver]

You can execute a loop with Griselbrand activations, Children of Korlis allowing infinite draws, and Emrakul to shuffle back in. The typical best "win-con" is no longer Tendrils, because Collective Brutality kills your opponent once you establish the loop.

The drain effect is only really needed against Ensnaring Bridge or other fringe situations.

[MDHackbert]

many of my opponents died to attack for 22.

[jugglervr]

The Reanimator Depths (https://www.mtgstocks.com/decks/131332) that took 7th at Big Magic Open recently has me thinking.


2 Griselbrand
2 Grave Titan
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Platinum Angel
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
1 Shallow Grave
2 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Exhume
1 Rite of Consumption
3 Pithing Needle
2 Lotus Petal
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Collective Brutality
//Sideboard
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Duress
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void


Specifically, I'm thinking about transformational sideboarding. What if the man plan was Marit Lage? Could front-load a little with, say, an Urborg and a Rite of Consumption (not exactly dead for us), and the SB might look like this:


4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
1 Rite of Consumption
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


The biggest problem I see with the traditional manplan is that people randomly leave in stuff like abrupt decay and other creature hate (they seem to think it's traditional reanimator, which might not be a problem at higher level events, i suppose), which is pretty much solved by this line. Death and Taxes becomes teeeeerrible (must play the Rite), but prison decks that land chalice on 1 become much more winnable.

[Jblinder]

The Reanimator Depths (https://www.mtgstocks.com/decks/131332) that took 7th at Big Magic Open recently has me thinking.


2 Griselbrand
2 Grave Titan
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Platinum Angel
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
1 Shallow Grave
2 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Exhume
1 Rite of Consumption
3 Pithing Needle
2 Lotus Petal
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Collective Brutality
//Sideboard
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Duress
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void


Specifically, I'm thinking about transformational sideboarding. What if the man plan was Marit Lage? Could front-load a little with, say, an Urborg and a Rite of Consumption (not exactly dead for us), and the SB might look like this:


4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
1 Rite of Consumption
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


The biggest problem I see with the traditional manplan is that people randomly leave in stuff like abrupt decay and other creature hate (they seem to think it's traditional reanimator, which might not be a problem at higher level events, i suppose), which is pretty much solved by this line. Death and Taxes becomes teeeeerrible (must play the Rite), but prison decks that land chalice on 1 become much more winnable.

What about just jamming both combos? Similar to the listed deck but more on the Fins style plan. I tried the following out in the tournament practice queues and it's actually been performing quite well.

4 griselbrand
1 children of korlis
1 laboratory maniac
4 vampire hexmage
4 dark ritual
4 lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 entomb
4 shallow grave
4 exhume
4 unburial rites
4 unmask
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 thespians stage
4 dark depths
1 scrubland
2 swamp
3 polluted delta

Lab man doesn't have the advantage of emrakul in that you can't animate him in a pinch to wipe their board, but he plays better with LED and is a surprisingly clean and effective kill with griselbrand and children. Losing brainstorm is clearly bad, but this deck is so combo-dense I haven't really missed it. I have many turn 1 lab man kills already in about 12 games (at least 3) and marit lage has been involved enough that I've been very happy with it.

Other than pithing needles (could see up to 4 being right) I really don't know what to do with the board. I'm even considering doing what the guy above did there too...something like. 4 leyline of the void, 1 Rest In Peace, 1 helm of obedience, 4 enlightened tutor, 4 pithing needle...1 something else. Maybe animate dead as a tutor target so you can leave 1 griselbrand in when you're on helm plan (I'm thinking primarily vs opposing reanimator decks.

Really the deck doesn't want to sideboard much very often, and because it attacks from two angles their sideboard hate shouldn't be as backbreaking. I think this might be kind of good...

EDIT: I've been liking 3 needles and 2 not of this world in the board for any Karakas matchup, and some of the usual suspects like a couple massacres, 3 surgical and some thoughtseizes to round it out. I usually cut a couple unburial rites in most matchups. Vs some decks I cut unmask, and others (delver) I trim lions eye diamonds, but I like a couple because they are really good on the combo turn (you can also go allin on thespian stage/depths on turn 2 with led, which is often actually good). Went 3-2 in my first real league and I'm 2-2 in the next with one of my most hilarious misplays ever leading to one of my losses vs julian23 (I had entomb/exhume, but I just spaced out while talking with my wife and didn't cast the entomb on his endstep, then cast my exhume for nothing).

Actually, I still think this deck is legit, and I'll probably be on something like this for gp Vegas. Trying to find room for one more swamp, otherwise I'm really happy with the main.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What about just jamming both combos? Similar to the listed deck but more on the Fins style plan. I tried the following out in the tournament practice queues and it's actually been performing quite well.

4 griselbrand
1 children of korlis
1 laboratory maniac
4 vampire hexmage
4 dark ritual
4 lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 entomb
4 shallow grave
4 exhume
4 unburial rites
4 unmask
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 thespians stage
4 dark depths
1 scrubland
2 swamp
3 polluted delta

Lab man doesn't have the advantage of emrakul in that you can't animate him in a pinch to wipe their board, but he plays better with LED and is a surprisingly clean and effective kill with griselbrand and children. Losing brainstorm is clearly bad, but this deck is so combo-dense I haven't really missed it. I have many turn 1 lab man kills already in about 12 games (at least 3) and marit lage has been involved enough that I've been very happy with it.

Other than pithing needles (could see up to 4 being right) I really don't know what to do with the board. I'm even considering doing what the guy above did there too...something like. 4 leyline of the void, 1 Rest In Peace, 1 helm of obedience, 4 enlightened tutor, 4 pithing needle...1 something else. Maybe animate dead as a tutor target so you can leave 1 griselbrand in when you're on helm plan (I'm thinking primarily vs opposing reanimator decks.

Really the deck doesn't want to sideboard much very often, and because it attacks from two angles their sideboard hate shouldn't be as backbreaking. I think this might be kind of good...

EDIT: I've been liking 3 needles and 2 not of this world in the board for any Karakas matchup, and some of the usual suspects like a couple massacres, 3 surgical and some thoughtseizes to round it out. I usually cut a couple unburial rites in most matchups. Vs some decks I cut unmask, and others (delver) I trim lions eye diamonds, but I like a couple because they are really good on the combo turn (you can also go allin on thespian stage/depths on turn 2 with led, which is often actually good). Went 3-2 in my first real league and I'm 2-2 in the next with one of my most hilarious misplays ever leading to one of my losses vs julian23 (I had entomb/exhume, but I just spaced out while talking with my wife and didn't cast the entomb on his endstep, then cast my exhume for nothing).

Actually, I still think this deck is legit, and I'll probably be on something like this for gp Vegas. Trying to find room for one more swamp, otherwise I'm really happy with the main.
If you do that, I'd consider running the second Helm in the last slot.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

[taco-hell]

So where do we stand with Tin Fins currently? I'm pretty close to having the deck built, wondering if any of you guys are still living the fast combo dream!

[.dk]

I recently acquired a signed Children of Korlis - so I've decided that until I can come across signed sets of Shallow Grave and Goryo's Vengeance, I can't play this deck. It's just too ugly now. I get too distracted when looking at my openers to even figure out how to mulligan. I've been mulling to more sigs and that's just no way to live life.

[Acclimation]

I recently acquired a signed Children of Korlis - so I've decided that until I can come across signed sets of Shallow Grave and Goryo's Vengeance, I can't play this deck. It's just too ugly now. I get too distracted when looking at my openers to even figure out how to mulligan. I've been mulling to more sigs and that's just no way to live life.

The Bank of Logan is always open to store your fancy cards and save you from the torment of having not enough signed cards :wink:

[Kobra_D]

I recently acquired a signed Children of Korlis - so I've decided that until I can come across signed sets of Shallow Grave and Goryo's Vengeance, I can't play this deck. It's just too ugly now. I get too distracted when looking at my openers to even figure out how to mulligan. I've been mulling to more sigs and that's just no way to live life.

I've been trying to reach John Coulthart (artist of shallow grave) but haven't had any success. Any thoughts? I too am trying to posture with TinFins.

[.dk]

The Bank of Logan is always open to store your fancy cards and save you from the torment of having not enough signed cards :wink:

What kind of interest rates do you provide? :)


I've been trying to reach John Coulthart (artist of shallow grave) but haven't had any success. Any thoughts? I too am trying to posture with TinFins.

I've failed at every turn as well. :( And getting signed Probes is going to be well... next to impossible. This is a tough deck to get entirely signed. If you get a lead though, please let me know!

[Acclimation]

What kind of interest rates do you provide? :)



I've failed at every turn as well. :( And getting signed Probes is going to be well... next to impossible. This is a tough deck to get entirely signed. If you get a lead though, please let me know!

Interest payments are in the form of fine libations :u:

[.dk]

Interest payments are in the form of fine libations :u:

Well if you're bursting at an event that we're both at, you're welcome to borrow any stuff I happen to be not playing that day. :)

[ZeDan]

Afternoon All,

Hope this finds you all well. After a break of a few years I'm thinking about re-investing in MTGO (I have no LGS at present) with Tinfins. I played it before in 2015 when Tendrils of Agony was a win condition and absolutely loved the deck (I understand from this thread that this has now been replaced with Collective Brutality). I found this thread enormously helpful at that time so thank you to all those who have contributed. A lot of thoughtful/detailed guidance is provided here which makes piloting the deck a lot more intuitive when starting out.

When I last played Tinfins miracles was still a thing. As it has now gone the way of the dodo, I was wondering if anyone who had played in the new/emergent meta had a deck list (with sideboard) that they could recommend? I'm assuming that Doomsday sideboard is now a non-starter too, is Monastery Mentor still the prefered SB plan? Many thanks in advance to any and all who are able to offer some guidance.

Cheers,

Z

[.dk]

Afternoon All,

Hope this finds you all well. After a break of a few years I'm thinking about re-investing in MTGO (I have no LGS at present) with Tinfins. I played it before in 2015 when Tendrils of Agony was a win condition and absolutely loved the deck (I understand from this thread that this has now been replaced with Collective Brutality). I found this thread enormously helpful at that time so thank you to all those who have contributed. A lot of thoughtful/detailed guidance is provided here which makes piloting the deck a lot more intuitive when starting out.

When I last played Tinfins miracles was still a thing. As it has now gone the way of the dodo, I was wondering if anyone who had played in the new/emergent meta had a deck list (with sideboard) that they could recommend? I'm assuming that Doomsday sideboard is now a non-starter too, is Monastery Mentor still the prefered SB plan? Many thanks in advance to any and all who are able to offer some guidance.

Cheers,

Z

I haven't played the deck in ages, myself. But I would probably be mentoring out of the sideboard if I were. That said, you could still make a Doomsday transformation if you thought that running Tendrils over Collective Brutality maindeck was worth the cost. Provided that you're running 2 LDV maindeck (I would probably run my same 60 card maindeck from GP NJ if I were to do that. Well, -1 Tundra +1 Underground Sea), your sideboard could be something like this:

4 Doomsday
1 Ideas Unbound or possible Three Wishes?
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain (or maybe Meditate?)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor

There are some slick piles you can make with Conjurer's Bauble post-Doomsday - particularly with a draw 4. It's possible that Infernal Contract and Cruel Bargain should be your ONLY draw spell in this sideboard as well, allowing you to cut Ideas Unbound/Three Wishes for the 4th Conjurer's Bauble. Just watch your life total. :)

[Kobra_D]

Afternoon All,

Hope this finds you all well. After a break of a few years I'm thinking about re-investing in MTGO (I have no LGS at present) with Tinfins. I played it before in 2015 when Tendrils of Agony was a win condition and absolutely loved the deck (I understand from this thread that this has now been replaced with Collective Brutality). I found this thread enormously helpful at that time so thank you to all those who have contributed. A lot of thoughtful/detailed guidance is provided here which makes piloting the deck a lot more intuitive when starting out.

When I last played Tinfins miracles was still a thing. As it has now gone the way of the dodo, I was wondering if anyone who had played in the new/emergent meta had a deck list (with sideboard) that they could recommend? I'm assuming that Doomsday sideboard is now a non-starter too, is Monastery Mentor still the prefered SB plan? Many thanks in advance to any and all who are able to offer some guidance.

Cheers,

Z


Welcome back, and congrats on making the right choice of choosing Tin Fins. I haven't played this deck super recently (I usually sleeve up Nic Fit at my LGS now), but I ran it at a few big events over the past couple of months. My plan has been rather different from everyone else's as I have been on the badlands plan and not the typical blue list. This started off as a budget option (I didn't have/still don't own and underground seas) but the deck feels strong none the less.

The hardest part is being able to reload if something goes wrong without brainstorm in the deck, but there is a lot of discard to help smooth things over.

I don't have my list in front of me but I am pretty sure it is a lot like this:

//Creatures:
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
4 Chancellor of the annex

//Inst. & Sorc.
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask
2 Collective Brutality
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual

//Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Mountain or Scrubland or Bayou


The sideboard for me varies and the last land reflects that.
A mountain means I am running 3 sneak attacks in my 75. Scrubland puts me on mentor out of the side (even in mardu mentor is good). Bayou is mostly for ground seal which helps around most grave hate except for rest in peace and containment priest.

I know people are still mostly on the blue plan, and rightfully so, but this build has treated me well and can still be piloted successfully given the normal amount of luck you would need dodging grave hate.

Have fun spreading the good word of Griselbee's.

[ZeDan]

I haven't played the deck in ages, myself. But I would probably be mentoring out of the sideboard if I were. That said, you could still make a Doomsday transformation if you thought that running Tendrils over Collective Brutality maindeck was worth the cost. Provided that you're running 2 LDV maindeck (I would probably run my same 60 card maindeck from GP NJ if I were to do that. Well, -1 Tundra +1 Underground Sea), your sideboard could be something like this:

4 Doomsday
1 Ideas Unbound or possible Three Wishes?
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain (or maybe Meditate?)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor

There are some slick piles you can make with Conjurer's Bauble post-Doomsday - particularly with a draw 4. It's possible that Infernal Contract and Cruel Bargain should be your ONLY draw spell in this sideboard as well, allowing you to cut Ideas Unbound/Three Wishes for the 4th Conjurer's Bauble. Just watch your life total. :)

Hi dk,

Many thanks for such a quick response. That proposed Doomsday sideboard looks very interesting. When I played an older version of it (at least on MTGO) nobody ever expected it (or knew what was happening). Given it's 'all in' style, I think it's the perfect supplement for Tinfins. I do remember having lots of success with the 'Mentor SB' too. I'd probably want to try both out to have some options/variety. As it's been a while since I played I'm not entirely sure what to pick for my mainboard. I don't believe Unmask was prevalent in Tinfins at that time. Here is a list of what I used before (to the best of my memory):

Creatures
2x Griselbrand
1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul Aeons Torn

Artifacts
2x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal

Spells
4x Entomb
3x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Shallow Grave
3x Goryo's Vengeance
2x Reanimate
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual

Land
Flooded Strand x2
Marsh Flats x2
Polluted Delta x4
Scrubland x2
Underground Sea x2
Island x1
Swamp x1

What would you recommend changing in the current meta (to make way for multiple Unmask and Collective Brutality)? Cheers once again for your time guys! Hope you're having a good day/night.

Z

EDIT: Thank you Kobra for your recommendations, too. That combination looks like a lot of fun also. Did you look to merge aspects of Tinfins with classic reanimator? Home brew decks can be the most effective I find, as opponents don't expect them (and therefore under estimate them). Are you still looking to try out a 'classic' style Tinfins deck yourself or are you sticking with your current setup?

[.dk]

Hi dk,

Many thanks for such a quick response. That proposed Doomsday sideboard looks very interesting. When I played an older version of it (at least on MTGO) nobody ever expected it (or knew what was happening). Given it's 'all in' style, I think it's the perfect supplement for Tinfins. I do remember having lots of success with the 'Mentor SB' too. I'd probably want to try both out to have some options/variety. As it's been a while since I played I'm not entirely sure what to pick for my mainboard. I don't believe Unmask was prevalent in Tinfins at that time. Here is a list of what I used before (to the best of my memory):

Creatures
2x Griselbrand
1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul Aeons Torn

Artifacts
2x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal

Spells
4x Entomb
3x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Shallow Grave
3x Goryo's Vengeance
2x Reanimate
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual

Land
Flooded Strand x2
Marsh Flats x2
Polluted Delta x4
Scrubland x2
Underground Sea x2
Island x1
Swamp x1

What would you recommend changing in the current meta (to make way for multiple Unmask and Collective Brutality)? Cheers once again for your time guys! Hope you're having a good day/night.

Z

EDIT: Thank you Kobra for your recommendations, too. That combination looks like a lot of fun also. Did you look to merge aspects of Tinfins with classic reanimator? Home brew decks can be the most effective I find, as opponents don't expect them (and therefore under estimate them). Are you still looking to try out a 'classic' style Tinfins deck yourself or are you sticking with your current setup?

The last list I was testing looked like this, to give you an idea as to what I cut for Unmask:

4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Children of Korlis
1 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Griselbrand
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ponder
1 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
3 Unmask

Might be that 4 Unmask is better than 4 Therapy - not really sure. This isn't the list I would run if I were transforming to Doomsday though. You need 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Probe at a minimum for that, and Tendrils somewhere in the 75. The logical slot is to replace Collective Brutality IMO, but there may be other swaps you could make. Unmask also really wants to have at least 3 Griselbrands in the deck as well. You'd have to play with the numbers to see what you're swapping in and out for your Doomsday package to figure out what fits.

The maindeck above is probably more solid in the current metagame than the NJ list was - less reliant on Entomb, can kill a deathrite shaman, and has free protection with Unmask. I'm just not sure if you can finagle the list to make a Doomsday transformation work well with it.

[Acclimation]

My list that I've been running over the last couple of month's is the one that .dk just posted. Unmask is tight, but I think 3 is correct, not 4.


My sb is something like

4 Mentor
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Massacre
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Serenity
1 Plains (Was getting tired of losing to 8 bloodmoon.dec)


You could change the plains to something more functional (Another Needle, Chain of Vapor, Cavern of Souls) for a larger tournament.

Usually when I bring in Mentor, I keep a Griselbrand and a Reanimate or a Shallow Grave in, because sometimes you can sneak in a quick Griselbrand and draw into Mentor. Not sure if it's 100% correct, but since I've only been playing sporadically the last few months, I can't really get much testing in to figure out the best sideboard.

The maindeck is rock solid and a good place to start in a Top-less world.

[Darkgobs]

Unmask is tight, but I think 3 is correct, not 4.


Why exactly did you guys end up with 3 Unmask over Toughtseize / more Collective Brutality? Is the card that much better in the post-top meta?

[Zooligan]

Why exactly did you guys end up with 3 Unmask over Toughtseize / more Collective Brutality? Is the card that much better in the post-top meta?

After G-brand activation(s) Unmask's card disadvantage isn't really a disadvantage any longer. TS requires life payment which could potentially keep you from drawing an additional G-brand 7 or put you in range of something you otherwise would not be. CBru is awesome, and some mix of Unmask and it is probably right.

[.dk]

Not only that, but I believe that Unmask when more Chalices and Delvers are around as well. It allows you turn 1 protection while not burning an IMS. Thoughtseize is great too - but the lifeloss can really hurt against Delver decks. Moreso than the card disadvantage of Unmask, IMO. Just like how you can mulligan low with this deck and still T1 opponents, you can leverage that same strength with Unmask.

Collective Brutality's beyond the first I think can be great sideboard cards, for obvious reasons. I don't like more than 1 maindeck as they push you over the magic "3 mana" number as a way to pitch a guy and combo out the same turn. I'm skeptical of cards that don't let us combo out off of Dark Ritual without a very specific purpose. It also doesn't discard Chalice of the Void, Sphere effects, or Blood Moon. It's situationally great - something I don't like in the maindeck all that much. Shines when there are lots of deathrite + counterspells around. Although usually if that's the case, I just don't play this deck.

[Acclimation]

I'll reiterate what's already been said:


1) Protection that requires no mana. The main reason why I tested it in the first place was to find a theoretical balls to the wall list, and this is a card that allows us to protect our combo on t1 with no extra mana requirement AND pitch a fatty to be reanimated. We can be constrained on mana while comboing, so having a free pitch is great. Heck, on those random games you draw 14 and are unable to go off, you can fire off a few Unmask to ensure your opponent can't answer (without a topdeck) our subsequent turn's combo.

In short, I feel like I have an excess of cards and constrained mana more often than not, so having a protection spell (with lots of other utility) that I can cast without spending mana reduces those games in which I jam the combo and hope they don't have anything.

2) 4 cmc dodges Chalice and other spells that care about locking us out at specific CMC (sans Gaddock Teeg)

3) No life loss. Sometimes that 2 life from thoughtseize drops us from 16 to 14, and prevents us from drawing an extra 7.

4) The card reads: Look at target player's hand, not target player Reveals their hand. This seems like a weird one, but on the games where you have to target yourself to discard a fatty, you give up less info to your opponent. edit- as pointed out, the Oracle text reads "Target player reveals his or her hand."

I've tried playing lists with 2 maindeck CoBru (over the Thoughtseizes we originally ran) , and while it's great in metas that run a lot of DRS, bears, burn spells, and delvers, the fact that it costs 2 and only hits instants and sorcery spells really hurt the spells utility. It hurt cutting Tendrils from the deck to run CoBru in it's slot, but it having conditional utility makes it much more versatile than Tendrils, AND it's a wincon for us once we get to the loop our deck phase. However, once you start bumping its numbers and using it in other slots, you start to notice its deficiencies much more. I DO like having extra copies in sideboard games, as it can nuke bears and help us close out games w/ Mentor.

IDK if Unmask will be good a year from now, but for Legacy in 2017, Unmask does a lot of good work in the kitchen.

[bigbobbobber]

Being nit-picky here, but the gatherer rules for Unmask say that the player reveals their hand

[Kobra_D]

Got to love errata text. If you look at a copy of from the vault lore, unmask is also updated to signify it is reveal and not look.

But even then it is such a small percentage difference in our case that I wouldn't let that weigh on my conscience.

[Acclimation]

Well, shoot. Good to know, most everyone plays with the Masques version and just reads the card as is.

[Kobra_D]

My comp. did not load all of the responses last time to the unmask question, didn't mean to tack on towards the end.


Hi dk,

Many thanks for such a quick response. That proposed Doomsday sideboard looks very interesting. When I played an older version of it (at least on MTGO) nobody ever expected it (or knew what was happening). Given it's 'all in' style, I think it's the perfect supplement for Tinfins. I do remember having lots of success with the 'Mentor SB' too. I'd probably want to try both out to have some options/variety. As it's been a while since I played I'm not entirely sure what to pick for my mainboard. I don't believe Unmask was prevalent in Tinfins at that time. Here is a list of what I used before (to the best of my memory):

Creatures
2x Griselbrand
1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul Aeons Torn

Artifacts
2x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal

Spells
4x Entomb
3x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Shallow Grave
3x Goryo's Vengeance
2x Reanimate
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual

Land
Flooded Strand x2
Marsh Flats x2
Polluted Delta x4
Scrubland x2
Underground Sea x2
Island x1
Swamp x1

What would you recommend changing in the current meta (to make way for multiple Unmask and Collective Brutality)? Cheers once again for your time guys! Hope you're having a good day/night.

Z

EDIT: Thank you Kobra for your recommendations, too. That combination looks like a lot of fun also. Did you look to merge aspects of Tinfins with classic reanimator? Home brew decks can be the most effective I find, as opponents don't expect them (and therefore under estimate them). Are you still looking to try out a 'classic' style Tinfins deck yourself or are you sticking with your current setup?

The rakdos build was because I didn't own any blue duals, which unfortunately is still the case. That being said, I started the deck in a far off place with rite of flames and simian spirit guides and have gotten it to this place which is more aligned with something like RB reanimator. This is more all in, but it performs unreasonably well still for lacking brainstorm. I brought it up in case you didn't have the deck yet/ wanted to buy pieces at a time, this gives you something to play in the mediary.

As for myself I have fallen in love with this list and will be sticking with badlands. Good luck.

[Richard Cheese]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/133/40/636379648224261794.png

So we basically already have all the tools to abuse this guy. Unfortunately Goryo's can't get him, and Corpse Dance is the next best thing, but the extra mana is a world of difference (+U to activate). We've discussed starting with pomegrant's BW/LED version, or possibly a slightly slower Reanimator hybrid with more protection.

Thoughts?

[Darkgobs]

Well, it looks fancy, but the downsides you mentioned seem to be quite problematic indeed.

Actually this makes me wondering: how does the "Pomegrant's list" look like nowadays, aka now that we got CBru? Would you also play Unmask in such a list?

[Kobra_D]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/133/40/636379648224261794.png

So we basically already have all the tools to abuse this guy. Unfortunately Goryo's can't get him, and Corpse Dance is the next best thing, but the extra mana is a world of difference (+U to activate). We've discussed starting with pomegrant's BW/LED version, or possibly a slightly slower Reanimator hybrid with more protection.

Thoughts?

Ok, I got to be missing something here. Why do we want to cast mind's desire? It's a fun card, sure, but it just seems to be deviation from the goal. Getting griselbrand is already good enough, or are you trying to cast this guy and then activate next turn? I chalk this card up to "look's cool but doesn't do quite what I want."

That being said, swap out 4 goryo's for 4 shallow grave and you're golden. Or you can reanimate the old fashion way having already binned this card Dragon Breath .

Ok, careful study/ looting pitching dragon breath and this guy does seem like the right kind of fun.

[bruizar]

looks like a good deck for the ur dragon..

[ZeDan]

Hello Again All,

Apologies for the delayed response - was away for a few weeks. I've finally managed to try out the deck dk recommended (with the sideboard recommended by Acclimation). I've played six games so far and have only lost two. I'm loving some of the new changes (Unmask is unreal value!). I'm still getting used to having no tendrils but overall I'm really enjoying it. Thank you for the suggestions/feedback, I really appreciate it!

BW,

Z

[Zooligan]

Hello Again All,

Apologies for the delayed response - was away for a few weeks. I've finally managed to try out the deck dk recommended (with the sideboard recommended by Acclimation). I've played six games so far and have only lost two. I'm loving some of the new changes (Unmask is unreal value!). I'm still getting used to having no tendrils but overall I'm really enjoying it. Thank you for the suggestions/feedback, I really appreciate it!

BW,

Z

Just for us people on small devices who don't really like to scroll back thru multiple post to look for lists and hope they find the one or ones you are talking about, could you post your currently-discussed main/side please?

[ZeDan]

Just for us people on small devices who don't really like to scroll back thru multiple post to look for lists and hope they find the one or ones you are talking about, could you post your currently-discussed main/side please?

Hi Zooligan,

No problem. Here is the mainboard I'm using (courtesy of dk):

4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Children of Korlis
1 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Griselbrand
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ponder
1 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
3 Unmask

And here is the sideboard I'm using (courtesy of Acclimation):

4 Mentor
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Massacre
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Serenity
1 Cavern of Souls

[Zooligan]

Thanks ZeDan!

[gRR!!]

Hey there folks,

I've been browsing through this awesome thread and I'm considering to burst some onions myself. I have to recognize that I haven't read the 159 pages (yet), so I'm sorry if this has been previously answered: In the match-ups where you switch to the man plan post-board, do you always make the switch before game 2, or is better to try to win G2 via combo and then, if we fail, bring in the Mentors, catch the opponent off-guard and win with monks game 3? And what if we lost game one? Do we switch (to Mentors) G2 and then switch back again G3? No one plays Tin Fins here in my meta, so I think Mentors will be totally unexpected. Let me know, thanks!

[Karhumies]

Hey there folks,

I've been browsing through this awesome thread and I'm considering to burst some onions myself. I have to recognize that I haven't read the 159 pages (yet), so I'm sorry if this has been previously answered: In the match-ups where you switch to the man plan post-board, do you always make the switch before game 2, or is better to try to win G2 via combo and then, if we fail, bring in the Mentors, catch the opponent off-guard and win with monks game 3? And what if we lost game one? Do we switch (to Mentors) G2 and then switch back again G3? No one plays Tin Fins here in my meta, so I think Mentors will be totally unexpected. Let me know, thanks!

The general idea is that whenever you expect them to have spot removal (e.g. Swords) left in their sideboard and grave hate added into their deck, you should be on the man plan. Sideboarding for game 3 can go into a "mind games" mode.

[Kobra_D]

The general idea is that whenever you expect them to have spot removal (e.g. Swords) left in their sideboard and grave hate added into their deck, you should be on the man plan. Sideboarding for game 3 can go into a "mind games" mode.

Especially that last part. I usually don't do this for time constraints but when I have a mentors in the board I will shuffle my sideboard in between games and then pick out 15.

I know some people do this no matter what but I find it especially relevant with transformation style sideboards.

You will find your own preference as you come across match ups but my sb usually goes along the lines of:
G2 OTP- I will bring in 4 mentors if I expect leylines, or don't expect leylines but don't have anything else good in the match up. I will probably try to squeeze in 2 mentors otherwise as a plan b. If I expect my opp. has stone cold nothing, then I am resubmitting my original 60.

G2 OTD- Unless I have a lot of good other side board cards or I expect my opponent has nothing I will bring in 4 mentors.

G3 OTP- If my opp. saw mentor G2 I will board them out. If my opp. did not see mentor and I lost from trying to reanimate I will keep 4. Otherwise, I will probably keep 1 s that I can try to combo as fast as posible.

G3 OTD- If my opp. saw mentor G2 I will likely go down to 2 (unless it's a leyline deck where I stay at 4). If my opp. didn't see mentor, I'm keeping 4.

[gRR!!]

I get it, thank you for the answers! Ill try your approach and see what happens.

I have another doubt (again, I haven't tested the deck yet, so sorry if my questions are alrerady answered and/or silly): How do we survive if we have our Griselbrands Surgical'd (assuming we are not on the man plan)? It seems way more devastating than in other Reanimator builds. Is the pack of Probes+Therapies+Unmasks+1 CoBru+instant reanimation (if we have mana) enough to protect us?

I have to say I've goldfished the deck a dozen times and it seems absurdly fun (infinite life+infinite card draws+infinite spells on turn 1? Please!). Thanks to all the contributors to this thread!

[Acclimation]

Sometimes you get your boys extracted, and sometimes they get cocky and fetch below 15 life and you can sneak an Emrakul and/or a CoBru to steal a game. Heck, Children beats have gotten me there a few times as well.

[Kobra_D]

Sometimes Grisebrand gets surgical'd and you can do stone cold nothing about it. This is already a fast combo deck, you can represent lethal every turn. So, especially in post board games, slow down. if you can just wait a little and try to play around something like SE it could help. Or just waiting to set up reanimate with shallow grave could be enough.

I sometimes keep a grave titan in the side and will entomb that first post board. You spend too a lot of resources on it so I think sculpting a hand is better, but it can bate out a surgical or a counter spell.

Now opening this up to the community at large, can we play surgical extraction? It's good in other match ups plus is anti hate versus opp.'s hates. Probably not right, but seems spicy.

[Richard Cheese]

Sometimes Grisebrand gets surgical'd and you can do stone cold nothing about it. This is already a fast combo deck, you can represent lethal every turn. So, especially in post board games, slow down. if you can just wait a little and try to play around something like SE it could help. Or just waiting to set up reanimate with shallow grave could be enough.

I sometimes keep a grave titan in the side and will entomb that first post board. You spend too a lot of resources on it so I think sculpting a hand is better, but it can bate out a surgical or a counter spell.

Now opening this up to the community at large, can we play surgical extraction? It's good in other match ups plus is anti hate versus opp.'s hates. Probably not right, but seems spicy.

It was a pretty standard sideboard pick for a long time. I think Koby gets credit for starting that trend. I personally didn't have much success with it but I never ran into many other gy-based strategies and also I are not smart.

[Acclimation]

I've been playing 2-3 Surgical Extraction in my sb since 2013, so idk where you've been because it's literally in the primer.

[Kobra_D]

It was a pretty standard sideboard pick for a long time. I think Koby gets credit for starting that trend. I personally didn't have much success with it but I never ran into many other gy-based strategies and also I are not smart.

Good to know. Praise be to Koby.

Mr. Cheese, can you update the primer in the Playing Around Hate section to include this? I suppose it is obvious enough for good players, but bad players (like me) need help.


I've been playing 2-3 Surgical Extraction in my sb since 2013, so idk where you've been because it's literally in the primer.

Sure, it being a good sideboard card is noted, but not the interaction of whiffing their surgical with yours. I'll just be looking to board it in more matches now.

[Zooligan]

Wouldn't something like Faerie Macabre be a better fit for this deck over Surgical? You have to have both in-hand, FM costs you less (the life can be significant in certain situations), and you can yoink an extra card from their yard if you are trying to blank them on a target in yours.

[Whitefaces]

Faerie can be a nonbo with Shallow Grave.

[Kobra_D]

Faerie can be a nonbo with Shallow Grave.

Furthermore, the generally stronger grave hate is surgical extraction (granted it's not strictly better). So if you're running surgical as your grave hate for other people it has the added case of being able to protect you from losing all of your griselbrands. You still fizzle it seems but at least it is no longer the worst case scenario.

Anyways, I always assumed surgical hit all cards similar to how cabal therapy hits "all" in a non- may fashion. I'm glad to now be aware of this extra line of play available, thanks everyone. This almost motivates me to read my cards to see and see what they do... Almost.

[.dk]

Furthermore, the generally stronger grave hate is surgical extraction (granted it's not strictly better). So if you're running surgical as your grave hate for other people it has the added case of being able to protect you from losing all of your griselbrands. You still fizzle it seems but at least it is no longer the worst case scenario.

Anyways, I always assumed surgical hit all cards similar to how cabal therapy hits "all" in a non- may fashion. I'm glad to now be aware of this extra line of play available, thanks everyone. This almost motivates me to read my cards to see and see what they do... Almost.

Faerie Macabre can do the same thing there, and grab something out of their yard at the same time. The bigger thing is exactly what Whitefaces said: Shallow Grave. Sucks to suck.

[Zooligan]

Good point. It would suck indeed to be forced to place Faerie on top of your discarded G-daddy with Shallow Grave in-hand.

[Kobra_D]

Hello Fellow Tin Finians.

Eternal Extravaganza is firing off today in Philly and I jammed the afternoon legacy side event. A little while back Karhummies suggested ground seal, skeptical I brought it with me as a *eh, why not* card.

In the current meta, ground seal is nuts. No one brings enchantment hate, and most grave hate has been faerie macabre, surgical extraction, and DRS. Sure, Czech pile is going to bring in edict effects, but ground seal shuts off so much. For a larger event I am sure it's right (currently).

Went 3-1, beating RUG delver, Czech Pile, ANT, and losing to UR Delver. UR delver had a lot to due with variance, T1 G1 and then mull to 5 game 2, mull to 6 g3. I also misread opps. hate. I assumed it was surgical/faerie, so I brought in ground seal and got blown out by grafdiggers cage. G3 I bring in abrupt decays to jam into a brainstorm into faerie macabre *shrug*.

Over all the deck feels solid, and ground seal is the ultimate in tech-y goodness. As a tangent, a few pages back people were also talking about silence. Abeyance is more costly but dodges macabre, drs and all the goodness so it could be thought of as a replacement in in white splashes.

Have fun attacking for 22 everyone.

[ElDorte]

hey Friends
Comming back to my old and true Love from playing Storm and Doomsday. Gonna sleeve up this badboy for our weekly and the Tournament on Sunday. What do you think?

//Creatures
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

//Instants
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance

//Sorceries
3 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Reanimate

//Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

//Lands
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Monastery Mentor
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Perilous Voyage

[Kobra_D]

hey Friends
Comming back to my old and true Love from playing Storm and Doomsday. Gonna sleeve up this badboy for our weekly and the Tournament on Sunday. What do you think?

//Creatures
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

//Instants
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance

//Sorceries
3 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Reanimate

//Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

//Lands
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Monastery Mentor
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Perilous Voyage

I'm not arguing against ponder but careful study might be a consideration. Just as an extra way to bin a griselbrand. You do have plenty of discard so it doesn't seem like it would be too much of an issue, but I never liked relying on just entomb.

Since you have the mentor plan b, is cabal therapy better than thoughtseize? It's a little worse g1-t1 in the dark, but does become significantly stronger afterwards. Especially with 4 probes, the 2 life loss isn't completely free on thoughtseize.

Other than that I'm very interested in Perilous Voyage. Is that just to pick up mentor if things go bad?

[ElDorte]

yeah did not really give much thought on the Discards. Maybe go for 3 Therapy 3 Unmask and cut the Thoughtseize.

The Voyage other than the Chain of Vapor can bounce Chalice on 1. And i just take it in as a Answer to everything if needed.

[.dk]

yeah did not really give much thought on the Discards. Maybe go for 3 Therapy 3 Unmask and cut the Thoughtseize.

The Voyage other than the Chain of Vapor can bounce Chalice on 1. And i just take it in as a Answer to everything if needed.

Either way, if you're going that route, then I don't think 2 Griselbrand is enough. Personally, I think overloading on discard is just fine, and using those to discard a griselbrand from your hand in place of Entomb. Since they double as protection, I generally have had better success with them than Careful Study in this deck.

Also, particularly since you're running Unmask, you have to pay attention to your black card count to be able to pitch to it. So, looking at your original list, I would probably run 3 Unmask, 3 Therapy, 0-1 Chrome Mox, and 3-4 Griselbrand. Could also easily swapping 1 Reanimate for another Collective Brutality or a maindeck Sword to Plowshares or something since Deathrite is so ubiquitous right now.

[ElDorte]

Went 2-1-1 yesterday due to bad luck of me and slowplaying opponents (would have won that game we drew in 1-2 Turns)

1-1 Kess Pile. Here the Time took away my win would have won that on the back of Mentor.

2-0 Most. Not much he could do. I gave him the Turn 1 and the Turn 2.

2-0 BUG Delver. Game one i killed him on turn 2 and game 2 he mulliganed to a "good" hand with only a Wasteland. (force, Fluster, Surgical) but i had all the Time to foght trough it.

2-1 Big Eldrazi. He knows what i play. He goes Chalice 1 Chalice 2 in his first 2 Turns. Game 2 i gave him the 22. Game 3 was really Grindy. If i ever would have draw a Therapy (had Mentor) i would have won.

The Voyages where great against Eldrazi. But other that never came up.

[ElDorte]

Good Morning Tin Friends.

As for now i decided to play more Tin Fins than in the past. I always pick it up and really enjoy it but then for tournaments lay it down in favor of TES or something else. And whenever that happens and i pick the deck back up i see how rusty i got with it. So i will play more Tin Fins in the upcomming weeks and summarize my observations. And i try to get it together on Modo to stream 1-2 a week.
That to myself.

Have you guys ever tested Jace, Vryns Prodigy or Search for Azcanta? Both cards look pretty interesting and seem to fit well into the deck. The Search is maybe a bit slow. I dont know yet.

[.dk]

Good Morning Tin Friends.

As for now i decided to play more Tin Fins than in the past. I always pick it up and really enjoy it but then for tournaments lay it down in favor of TES or something else. And whenever that happens and i pick the deck back up i see how rusty i got with it. So i will play more Tin Fins in the upcomming weeks and summarize my observations. And i try to get it together on Modo to stream 1-2 a week.
That to myself.

Have you guys ever tested Jace, Vryns Prodigy or Search for Azcanta? Both cards look pretty interesting and seem to fit well into the deck. The Search is maybe a bit slow. I dont know yet.


Acclimation tried JVP maindeck did a couple of years ago (in place of LDV if I remember correctly) and didn't like it all that much. I thought it was pretty strong against Miracles as well - maybe it still is. Just played a 1 of as an Entomb/Reanimation target. I think it's far less good against Czech Pile though.

Search for Azcanta - haven't tried that anywhere yet, although I want to. However, 3 cmc seems a bit much for that effect in this deck.

/edit: whoops, Search is 2 CMC. The impulse effect on the land side is 3 mana to activate. THAT seems like a bit much. Seems fun, but likely weaker than other options.

[ThomasDowd]

Any one have any arguments on why to play tin fins over rb?

[ElDorte]

Because its more fun.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Brainstorm, goes infinite, can actually win on turn 1.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[.dk]

Any one have any arguments on why to play tin fins over rb?

0 reasons. Red is far superior to blue.

[Dr_D]

Sealab references.

[ElDorte]

Hey Guys.

Gonna play some Fins tonight and start Streaming this week or next week due to my holidays. The list im gonna play is pretty close to ZeDan's list.

2 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Children of Korlis
1 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Griselbrand
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ponder
1 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
3 Unmask

Sideboard:

4 Mentor
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Massacre
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Serenity
1 Cavern of Souls

How did your testing go with Carefull Studys?

[Kobra_D]

Any one have any arguments on why to play tin fins over rb?

I play RB Tin Fins which looks mostly like a reanimator deck swapping animate dead for shallow grave, and the 2 flex fatty slots for 1 Emrakul and 1 Children of Korliss.

Some hands are weaker because you can end up with Emmy in your opener, but it opens the opportunity to win the turn you reanimate. RB can end up in a spot where you T1/T2 reanimate and find yourself staring at an opposing StP/Karakas/baleful strix.

I've played both in side events of larger tournaments but have never made it to anything with more than 4 rounds.

[nimkee]

I went 2-1 last night with that mono black version out of japan running the angel over child and grim tutor. I beat up on omnitell and lands before losing to pox.

Lost to a bridge 2 games in a row. If I had had a single goryos in the list I would have won but there were some titans above the grizzle so shallow grave didnt get it done.

The ramp sideboard plan of lake and monoliths worked surprisingly well.



Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk

[Kobra_D]

I know a lot of people are on the transformation to a mentor sideboard, but mentor hasn't been as good in the RB version due to a lack of cantrips.

So, instead, I've been trying a Jund list with the SB as follows:

3 Reverent Silence
3 Ground Seal
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Coffin Purge
1 Grave Titan


All the cards have proven relevant at times but it also feels a bit heavy handed. The coffin purge in lieu of surgical extraction mostly to be cute against storm but otherwise doesn't make a difference.

Does anyone have thoughts, ideas? I'm sure there are matchups that I am neglecting and have kind of tailored this to my locals but what if I went to a bigger event in a blind meta?

Thanks for the help.

[.dk]

I think we talked about Ground Seal a few pages back? Or maybe I'm remember a conversation or something... I think it's *almost* good in this deck. It warps your maindeck construction to not including Goryo's Vengeance and Reanimate - assuming you're running a maindeck without those cards, then Ground Seal's inclusion is probably fine. If not, given that you're running a heavy green commitment, I would consider running City of Solitude in those slots. Also, what is ratchet bomb for? That seems like an odd inclusion to me.

[Kobra_D]

I think we talked about Ground Seal a few pages back? Or maybe I'm remember a conversation or something... I think it's *almost* good in this deck. It warps your maindeck construction to not including Goryo's Vengeance and Reanimate - assuming you're running a maindeck without those cards, then Ground Seal's inclusion is probably fine. If not, given that you're running a heavy green commitment, I would consider running City of Solitude in those slots. Also, what is ratchet bomb for? That seems like an odd inclusion to me.

Yeah, I got the idea for ground seal a couple pages back around August? September? Not sure, but it was from another individual on this thread.

My maindeck runs 4 shallow grave, 4 exhume, and 4 reanimate. Boarding in groundseals just mean that I board out reanimates. The main deck doesn't need to be warped (I guess the warp is I've swapped goryo for exhume).

City of solitude does seem sweet. It does cost three which looks like a problem but I would only bring it in in grindy match ups I suppose. I'm willing to give that a try.

The ratchet bomb was for.... um.... random clean up? Helps with czech pile, d&t, delver variants, stone blade. It's not great but when shit hits the fan it was a fine inclusion. It could just be another abrupt decay and I would likely be fine.

So, nothing super obvious that's missing? The mentor plan was way easy to board with.

[.dk]

Yeah, I got the idea for ground seal a couple pages back around August? September? Not sure, but it was from another individual on this thread.

My maindeck runs 4 shallow grave, 4 exhume, and 4 reanimate. Boarding in groundseals just mean that I board out reanimates. The main deck doesn't need to be warped (I guess the warp is I've swapped goryo for exhume).

City of solitude does seem sweet. It does cost three which looks like a problem but I would only bring it in in grindy match ups I suppose. I'm willing to give that a try.

The ratchet bomb was for.... um.... random clean up? Helps with czech pile, d&t, delver variants, stone blade. It's not great but when shit hits the fan it was a fine inclusion. It could just be another abrupt decay and I would likely be fine.

So, nothing super obvious that's missing? The mentor plan was way easy to board with.

That's what I meant - cutting Goryo's Vengeance is warping the maindeck. That card is FAR more powerful in this deck than Exhume is. Opens up lines like reanimating a blocker, being able to reanimate Emrakul, etc. I would probably play Corpse Dance before Exhume, honestly. The instant speed + haste makes this deck extremely powerful. But, then you're playing a 3 mana reanimation spell - a different type of warp. Neither is very great.

Yeah, I would prefer another Abrupt Decay to ratchet bomb - it's just so slow. Generally Decay should be fine given the speed of the deck, as there will likely only be 1 permanent preventing you from going off early in the game.

Boarding with reactive cards has always been difficult with this deck. It's kind of a crapshoot since the maindeck is so tight, you can't really bring in answers to everything usually. Sounds like you're not running blue, which cuts you off of Chain of Vapor, Perilous Voyage, etc. But I could still see Fatal Push or Serenity as well. Depends on which pieces of hate you really want to fight. Silence, Chant, Abeyance are options if it's a counter heavy meta. More discard. Not sure how many (if any) collective brutality you run, but that card can be great out of the sideboard too.

/edit: oh, since you're in green, you could consider Ancient Grudge as well.

[Kobra_D]

That's what I meant - cutting Goryo's Vengeance is warping the maindeck. That card is FAR more powerful in this deck than Exhume is. Opens up lines like reanimating a blocker, being able to reanimate Emrakul, etc. I would probably play Corpse Dance before Exhume, honestly. The instant speed + haste makes this deck extremely powerful. But, then you're playing a 3 mana reanimation spell - a different type of warp. Neither is very great.

Yeah, I would prefer another Abrupt Decay to ratchet bomb - it's just so slow. Generally Decay should be fine given the speed of the deck, as there will likely only be 1 permanent preventing you from going off early in the game.

Boarding with reactive cards has always been difficult with this deck. It's kind of a crapshoot since the maindeck is so tight, you can't really bring in answers to everything usually. Sounds like you're not running blue, which cuts you off of Chain of Vapor, Perilous Voyage, etc. But I could still see Fatal Push or Serenity as well. Depends on which pieces of hate you really want to fight. Silence, Chant, Abeyance are options if it's a counter heavy meta. More discard. Not sure how many (if any) collective brutality you run, but that card can be great out of the sideboard too.

/edit: oh, since you're in green, you could consider Ancient Grudge as well.

Fair enough, I cut goryo's before adding ground seal so that concern was never on my mind.

I completely agree, boarding in 4 cards always feels wrong, which is why I'm curious to other silver bullets that are strong enough to come in by themselves and keep things running smoothly.

3rd decay might be right. I tried ancient grudge in the past and it just never shined.

Thanks for the feedback.

My current list for reference:

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp

//Creatures
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korliss
4 Chancellor of the Annex

//Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

//Sorcery
4 Unmask
2 Collective Brutality
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate

//Instant
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Shallow Grave

[UWTangClan]

Lurked for a while first time poster. Just recently got around to building this in paper but obviously still lack a lot of reps.

SB3K recently t8'd the legacy challenge with this:

1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
2 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

Side:
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Duress
4 Fatal Push
1 Flusterstorm
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize

Personally I like this list quite a bit. It seems to be going back to a more traditional list with 2 griselbrand, more fast mana (mox, though personally I don't know if I'd play more than one). The extra scrubland seems a little suspect to me. Is 7 mana producing lands the norm nowadays?

I really like the addition of pushes in the sideboard. Seems like the cleanest and most effective way to deal with a resolved deathrite while still maintaining some general utility outside of deathrite matchups.

The only other question I have is shouldn't at least one (if not both) of the thoughtseizes be a brutality? The drain loop is deterministic iirc (I have yet to attempt to perform it). Is there reasoning beyond the fact that this list doesn't play the playset of griselbrands to justify the thoughtseize inclusion?

[Kobra_D]

Lurked for a while first time poster. Just recently got around to building this in paper but obviously still lack a lot of reps.

SB3K recently t8'd the legacy challenge with this:

1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
2 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

Side:
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Duress
4 Fatal Push
1 Flusterstorm
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize

Personally I like this list quite a bit. It seems to be going back to a more traditional list with 2 griselbrand, more fast mana (mox, though personally I don't know if I'd play more than one). The extra scrubland seems a little suspect to me. Is 7 mana producing lands the norm nowadays?

I really like the addition of pushes in the sideboard. Seems like the cleanest and most effective way to deal with a resolved deathrite while still maintaining some general utility outside of deathrite matchups.

The only other question I have is shouldn't at least one (if not both) of the thoughtseizes be a brutality? The drain loop is deterministic iirc (I have yet to attempt to perform it). Is there reasoning beyond the fact that this list doesn't play the playset of griselbrands to justify the thoughtseize inclusion?

Welcome to the best deck!

The second chrome mox is helpful when the worst case scenario occurs and you need to enter into combat with just Griselbrand for an extra draw 7. Shouldn't happen often but can occur.

You can benefit a lot by having a CoBru somewhere in your 75 (I run 2 in my 60). An argument can be made for both careful study and unmask but I don't think either add substantial benefit in the Esper lists.

I imagine the extra scrubland is for the added benefit of Mentor specifically. I only ran 1 when I had a mentor transformation but 2 could be fine. That may be something that you tune for how you the deck runs.

We're not as grindy as miracles so when boarding in mentor I always think of the deck as turbo mentor post board. T1 mentor with a probe afterwards or cabal therapy to start the token generation is always where I wanted to be.

[.dk]

That's a weird list - it looks like some bizarro update from lists about 2-3 years ago.

I don't get the second scrubland. That seems odd - probably because of Mentor, but I'd still rather it be a Sea. Petals make white just fine.

Chrome Mox in general isn't needed - there is data somewhere in this thread (from a couple years ago) that Acclimation and I gathered over hundreds of games, that IMO basically tells you that you're only gaining about 1% less chance of fizzling by running a Chrome Mox. The second we didn't gather data on - but it's just SO bad pre-combo, I'm not sure why you would want it.

I like Unmask in this deck a lot (when you're running 3-4 Griselbrands anyway) these days, and they can essentially take the place of Thoughtseize. And I don't see a good reason to not run Collective Brutality or Tendrils maindeck either. Collective Brutality has a lot more utility at very little functional cost (just time) over Tendrils, so I would run that.

[Kobra_D]

That's a weird list - it looks like some bizarro update from lists about 2-3 years ago.

I don't get the second scrubland. That seems odd - probably because of Mentor, but I'd still rather it be a Sea. Petals make white just fine.

Chrome Mox in general isn't needed - there is data somewhere in this thread (from a couple years ago) that Acclimation and I gathered over hundreds of games, that IMO basically tells you that you're only gaining about 1% less chance of fizzling by running a Chrome Mox. The second we didn't gather data on - but it's just SO bad pre-combo, I'm not sure why you would want it.

I like Unmask in this deck a lot (when you're running 3-4 Griselbrands anyway) these days, and they can essentially take the place of Thoughtseize. And I don't see a good reason to not run Collective Brutality or Tendrils maindeck either. Collective Brutality has a lot more utility at very little functional cost (just time) over Tendrils, so I would run that.

^Agreed 98%, I disagree on the chrome mox but I am playing a different deck which may rely on it as a crutch.

I like running 4 griselbrands just because that is a card we need to enter the grave one way or another. I wasn't sure if the 2 of was a UB thing.

I found that you didn't need both emrakul and tendrils to win, but emrakul aids the tendrils win. Which lead me to the conclusion of not wanting tendrils in my 75. Then I played against lands and was locked out by glacial chasm. A tendrils effect (life loss) is absolutely necessary for corner cases like this, but with collective brutality I don't see a reason to run tendrils anymore, at least for the time being.

[.dk]

^Agreed 98%, I disagree on the chrome mox but I am playing a different deck which may rely on it as a crutch.

I like running 4 griselbrands just because that is a card we need to enter the grave one way or another. I wasn't sure if the 2 of was a UB thing.

I found that you didn't need both emrakul and tendrils to win, but emrakul aids the tendrils win. Which lead me to the conclusion of not wanting tendrils in my 75. Then I played against lands and was locked out by glacial chasm. A tendrils effect (life loss) is absolutely necessary for corner cases like this, but with collective brutality I don't see a reason to run tendrils anymore, at least for the time being.

Well, I can't say on your RB deck, but the data was pretty clear for tin fins - chrome mox isn't needed.

I wouldn't play tendrils either - my only point was that you want SOMETHING in that slot. Tendrils is passable - collective brutality is better.

[Kobra_D]

Well, I can't say on your RB deck, but the data was pretty clear for tin fins - chrome mox isn't needed.

I wouldn't play tendrils either - my only point was that you want SOMETHING in that slot. Tendrils is passable - collective brutality is better.

I always played assuming I needed them in my 60. But that was always just because that's what I did. My whole world is upside down now, thanks .dk.

[.dk]

I always played assuming I needed them in my 60. But that was always just because that's what I did. My whole world is upside down now, thanks .dk.

Before Collective Brutality was printed, I do think it was needed at least somewhere in the 75 to get around weird corner case things. Collective Brutality does ALMOST all of the same, but has more utility. Things it doesn't do:

1. Win with natural storm count into Tendrils through weird hate
2. Win super fucking fast so you can go get food

But it does everything else, bins a griselbrand through countermagic, discards additional countermagic from their hand to resolve shallow grave, and kills deathrite shaman. seems way fucking worth it to me.

[Richard Cheese]

2. Win super fucking fast so you can go get food


It does however generate epic amounts of salt, which is nice if the food at the venue is under seasoned. Make sure you stay really hydrated though.

[.dk]

It does however generate epic amounts of salt, which is nice if the food at the venue is under seasoned. Make sure you stay really hydrated though.

You're getting magic venue snack bar food: it's made of 97% salt already. CoBru is spicy - balances out the saltiness.

[Kobra_D]

My auto include was for chrome mox, I never really considered playing without them.

I agree on the CoBru. I didn't immediately value the card when it was first printed but my opinion changed as soon as I played with it. It resides as a 2 of at the moment in my main. It's great but I don't necessarily want 4 2mana interuption spells.

[.dk]

My auto include was for chrome mox, I never really considered playing without them.

I agree on the CoBru. I didn't immediately value the card when it was first printed but my opinion changed as soon as I played with it. It resides as a 2 of at the moment in my main. It's great but I don't necessarily want 4 2mana interuption spells.

Ahhh gotcha. Misunderstood.

And yes, I would tend to agree that you don't want a playset of those as well.

[NedB37]

Morning all,

I'm slowly finding more pieces to get a rough list together in paper, as this seems/looks like so much fun!

Had a question though. In the absence of having an Emrakul, is there a substitute? As in, would one of the other OG titans with the shuffle effect still allow for the loop but not necessarily the alpha strike?

I'm in a weird situation where i randomly have a foil Children of Korlis but not a single Reanimate, so chipping away at obtaining bits and curious about potential alternatives.

[Undomian]

Morning all,

I'm slowly finding more pieces to get a rough list together in paper, as this seems/looks like so much fun!

Had a question though. In the absence of having an Emrakul, is there a substitute? As in, would one of the other OG titans with the shuffle effect still allow for the loop but not necessarily the alpha strike?

I'm in a weird situation where i randomly have a foil Children of Korlis but not a single Reanimate, so chipping away at obtaining bits and curious about potential alternatives.

The shuffle effect from the other original titans will work just the same, they're just worse creatures to attack with.

[NedB37]

The shuffle effect from the other original titans will work just the same, they're just worse creatures to attack with.

Sure! I'll keep chipping away at the pieces of the puzzle, then :) Cheers!

[.dk]

Sure! I'll keep chipping away at the pieces of the puzzle, then :) Cheers!

While the shuffle effect is one aspect, you can't 1 shot your opponent by attacking with Griselbrand and a non-Emrakul titan on T1. She's the only one with 13+ power.

[supachai]

Recently been playing more Tin Fins and have been doing surprisingly well. Went 3-1 last week, beating all 3 blue decks I faced and lost to a weird colorless stax deck. The Mentor plan has been decent post board but I want a more consistent way to find them as early as possible. Someone had mentioned JVP and I was wondering if a 2-of in the board would supplement that. It digs for Mentor, then recasts spells for Prowess triggers, and Mentor tokens are great at keeping him alive. As a neat bonus, we can Shallow Grave, and flip him immediately to ignore the exile clause. You could even -3 targeting Shallow Grave, let Jace die, reanimate, flip, and cast another spell. Definitely a cutesy play but it sounds quite fun, and that’s half the reason we play Fins right?

I typically board in 4 Mentor, some number of Flusterstorm and Stp, and a extra land, boarding out the entire combo save for 1 Griselbrand, 2 Reanimates, 3 Shallow Graves, and 2 Entombs.

[.dk]

Recently been playing more Tin Fins and have been doing surprisingly well. Went 3-1 last week, beating all 3 blue decks I faced and lost to a weird colorless stax deck. The Mentor plan has been decent post board but I want a more consistent way to find them as early as possible. Someone had mentioned JVP and I was wondering if a 2-of in the board would supplement that. It digs for Mentor, then recasts spells for Prowess triggers, and Mentor tokens are great at keeping him alive. As a neat bonus, we can Shallow Grave, and flip him immediately to ignore the exile clause.

I typically board in 4 Mentor, some number of Flusterstorm and Stp, and a extra land, boarding out the entire combo save for 1 Griselbrand, 2 Reanimates, 3 Shallow Graves, and 2 Entombs.

A singleton JVP as an Entomb target can be excellent out of the sideboard (or possibly main deck). He's works incredibly well with Shallow Grave and Goryo's Vengeance. I typically wouldn't want more than 1, as he is very vulnerable if you're not reanimating him with either of those 2 spells. Having to untap with him is a pretty big risk though (same problem with Bob out of the sideboard though, really, except he is still fine in multiples). And you basically never want to see the second one. I could easily see something like 4 Mentor, 1 JVP, 1-2 Bob out of the sideboard.

[supachai]

Glad to hear the sentiment on JVP. I think I will try this out. Some initial goldfishing seems positive. Sometimes an extra BS/Ponder or removal spell is all you really need to pull ahead. Also testing EE in the board in place of an Echoing Truth. Any suggestions on what my last SB slot should be? Ideally it should be something that handles hatepieces-Disenchent, Seal of Cleansing, Echoing Truth, EE.

//Creatures
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

//Instants
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance

//Sorceries
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Reanimate

//Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal

//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Island

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Monastery Mentor
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Plains

[NedB37]

While the shuffle effect is one aspect, you can't 1 shot your opponent by attacking with Griselbrand and a non-Emrakul titan on T1. She's the only one with 13+ power.

Sure, that was in my initial question :) Thanks, though.


...As in, would one of the other OG titans with the shuffle effect still allow for the loop but not necessarily the alpha strike?

[.dk]

Glad to hear the sentiment on JVP. I think I will try this out. Some initial goldfishing seems positive. Sometimes an extra BS/Ponder or removal spell is all you really need to pull ahead. Also testing EE in the board in place of an Echoing Truth. Any suggestions on what my last SB slot should be? Ideally it should be something that handles hatepieces-Disenchent, Seal of Cleansing, Echoing Truth, EE.

//Creatures
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

//Instants
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance

//Sorceries
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Reanimate

//Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal

//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Island

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Monastery Mentor
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Plains

Given that you're running 2 Collective Brutality main deck, not sure that 3 STP are necessary in the board. I could see cutting those to 2, and running 2 Chain of Vapor in your last slots.

[supachai]

Given that you're running 2 Collective Brutality main deck, not sure that 3 STP are necessary in the board. I could see cutting those to 2, and running 2 Chain of Vapor in your last slots.

I like that suggestion. I think I want to keep at least 3 outs to Chalice, since that is fairly prevalent in my meta (or at least I always seem to run into it), so I might just go -1 Swords, +1 Chain, and keep the EE for now. EE doubles as removal on small creatures too.

[DNSolver]

How is Chain of Vapor an answer to chalice? Are people putting it on zero?

[Kobra_D]

How is Chain of Vapor an answer to chalice? Are people putting it on zero?

I've beaten chalice on 1 multiple times with 2 cmc spells, so a stompy player may go chalice on 2 if they have the chance. But that being said, I don't think it is particularly likely of a scenario and would not be bringing in chain of vapor to answer CotV.

[supachai]

How is Chain of Vapor an answer to chalice? Are people putting it on zero?

I'm saying it's not an answer to Chalice, and I want at least three answers, hence 2 Serenity + EE, with only 1 CoV. If I went to 2 CoV and cut the EE, I feel like I'd be a little underprepared for Chalice on 1.

[scottpou]

Since the banning of top, the DD transformation has left me wanting more. Using Act on Impulse for a storm out has required the red mana/LEDs in the base and more complication. When I bring TinFins to a tournament, I just want to burst onions, get a snack, and get ready for the next round. If I wanted complexity and thinking, that's what my new formed Doomsday deck is designed to do. My sideboard is part reactive and part transformational. It's been a weird transition away from U and brainstorm, but I really am enjoying Gamble instead of Lim-Dûl's Vault. Yes, sometimes it will screw you, but if you learn how to play with it, it can be very, very effective. Also, I am very much enjoying playing Stronghold Gambit against lands and similar opponents. So here's my most current list:


// 6 Creature
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

// 15 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave

// 21 Sorcery
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Unmask
2 Gamble
4 Faithless Looting
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Burning Wish
3 Thoughtseize
1 Reanimate

// 4 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal

// 14 Land
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou

// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Sorcery
SB: 2 Stronghold Gambit
SB: 3 Burning Wish
SB: 2 By Force
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Reanimate

[Kobra_D]

Since the banning of top, the DD transformation has left me wanting more. Using Act on Impulse for a storm out has required the red mana/LEDs in the base and more complication. When I bring TinFins to a tournament, I just want to burst onions, get a snack, and get ready for the next round. If I wanted complexity and thinking, that's what my new formed Doomsday deck is designed to do. My sideboard is part reactive and part transformational. It's been a weird transition away from U and brainstorm, but I really am enjoying Gamble instead of Lim-Dûl's Vault. Yes, sometimes it will screw you, but if you learn how to play with it, it can be very, very effective. Also, I am very much enjoying playing Stronghold Gambit against lands and similar opponents. So here's my most current list:


// 6 Creature
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

// 15 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave

// 21 Sorcery
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Unmask
2 Gamble
4 Faithless Looting
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Burning Wish
3 Thoughtseize
1 Reanimate

// 4 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal

// 14 Land
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou

// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Sorcery
SB: 2 Stronghold Gambit
SB: 3 Burning Wish
SB: 2 By Force
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Reanimate



Since you're not boarding into the mentor plan I would definitely recommend massacre over toxic deluge.

Deluge hits more, sure, but I've only found wanting the -x/-x against d&t/hatebear strategies. TNN or anything like that never really bothered me. I also felt that the Burning wish board ate up too many resources but that's just me. To note, I haven't played a burning wish package in this deck since around the time mentor first became legal.

[Richard Cheese]

When I bring TinFins to a tournament, I just want to burst onions, get a snack, and get ready for the next round.

This dude gets it.

[scottpou]

The only change I've made after playing the last 2 weeks has been -1 Thoughtseize and +1 Goryo's. I keep going back and forth between Toxic Deluge and Massacre (I have 4 in paper). I'll be running the massacre with my play group this week. I'm also very seriously considering running 1 corpse dance over the reanimate main deck. Chalice at 2 is a PITA. Also thinking about -1 cabal & -1 gamble sideboard for +2 collective brutality

[Kobra_D]

Afternoon TinFinians.

It's been a while since anything updated here but there is 1 card from Rivals that I think is worth considering.

Silent Gravestone

I've had a blast playing Ground Seal, but this costing 1 and not needing the splash is worth trying at the very least.

I do play 4 Exhume instead of 4 Goryo's Vengeance which took some getting used to, but allows for the old fashioned reanimator turn as well as the combo turn (feels good when reanimator is less of a combo deck).

My current list for reference:

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Scrubland

//Creatures
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

//Art.
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

//Inst.&Sorc.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave

//Sideboard
4 Wear // Tear
1 Grave Titan
4 Silent Gravestone
2 Massacre
2 Stronghold Gambit
2 Disenchant

[Evilpurplemonkey]

Afternoon TinFinians.

It's been a while since anything updated here but there is 1 card from Rivals that I think is worth considering.

Silent Gravestone

I've had a blast playing Ground Seal, but this costing 1 and not needing the splash is worth trying at the very least.

I do play 4 Exhume instead of 4 Goryo's Vengeance which took some getting used to, but allows for the old fashioned reanimator turn as well as the combo turn (feels good when reanimator is less of a combo deck).

My current list for reference:

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Scrubland

//Creatures
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

//Art.
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

//Inst.&Sorc.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave

//Sideboard
4 Wear // Tear
1 Grave Titan
4 Silent Gravestone
2 Massacre
2 Stronghold Gambit
2 Disenchant
You should probably run Lions eye diamond over mox at that point. Cast exhume/shallow Graves, activate LED in response to put your Griseldaddy in the grave

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Kobra_D]

You should probably run Lions eye diamond over mox at that point. Cast exhume/shallow Graves, activate LED in response to put your Griseldaddy in the grave

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I previously tried the burning LED build but found it underwhelming which in turn led me to cut them completely. The chrome mox is I think part of the warping that results from exhume. If you go all in on a turn 1 exhume griselbrand, and draw 14 cards, chrome mox is lotus petal 5-6 to allow you to keep going. Although it has been a long time since I've played without them.

[Karhumies]

Using Exhume, Shallow Grave and Silent Gravestone also opens up Necrotic Ooze and Volrath's Shapeshifter.


I previously tried the burning LED build but found it underwhelming which in turn led me to cut them completely. The chrome mox is I think part of the warping that results from exhume. If you go all in on a turn 1 exhume griselbrand, and draw 14 cards, chrome mox is lotus petal 5-6 to allow you to keep going. Although it has been a long time since I've played without them.

LED, Exhume keeping priority, crack LED in response to Exhume to discard Griselbrand, gain 3 mana, Exhume resolves putting Griselbrand into play.

In this specific corner case, Chrome Mox instead of LED in the hand would have required a discard method and netted less mana for the combo turn post Griselbrand draw. With the upside of providing 1 extra mana precombo and not discarding the whole hand.

Drawing into LEDs instead of Chrome Moxes with Griselbrand draws is worse if you have 0 mana in the pool when you start the extra draws. You need 1 black for Dark Ritual or 2 mana for Exhume/Shallow Grave or 1 white for hard cast Children to keep going. LED just gets rid of your hand, unless you get a LED in the first draw 7, gamble by breaking LED for 3 mana to rely on the second draw 7. Spanish Inquisition playstyle.

[DNSolver]

I don't think that the BR build seems very competitive. You are giving up a lot over traditional BR Reanimator and not gaining a lot from playing the TinFins tech, other than fun :)

As far as the blue versions, I have played a few leagues with an Esper build with Mentor sideboard similar to what SB3K was playing online awhile back. I recently tried a change to increase the consistency of finding Entomb by cutting 4 Git Probes for 4 Preordains. The incidental lifeloss and lack of good digging power was making me not like probe, despite that it plays very nicely with Mentor post-board. Here's the list:

2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children
4 Entomb
2 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox (been considering cutting one because I almost always board one out...thoughts on replacement?)
3 USea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Delta
2 Strand
2 Marsh Flats

SB:
4 Mentor
3 Echoing Truth
4 StP
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction

Is Lim-Dul's Vault a better tool for finding Entomb, and Mentor post-board? I don't really like that it costs you a whole card to find it, because 1) Entomb is going to "cost" you another card, and 2) often you are looking for Mentor + 3rd mana source post-board.

I considered Intuition or Cunning Wish as another way to bin fatties, but other than running 7+ fatties and more discard / loot effects I don't see a more consistent way to bin Griselbrands.

Anyway, just wanted to share that I've been liking the Preordains. On stream, I went 4-1 then 1-3 with the build, then in the past few days I 5-0'd and 4-1'd. Mentors were hurt a bit from fewer free spells, but digging felt really good.

Matchups in general:

D+T: Matchup feels great. On the play, I've been typically going in on the combo and keeping hands that reflect that. On the draw, I've been on the Mentor plan. G3 I've been evaluating Their best play on turn 1 is sometimes Karakas pass, and Mentor is strong vs that.

Grixis Delver: Feels 50/50. Mentor can randomly wreck them, boarding back into the combo once they see Mentor can be good. I've been bringing in removal no matter what though.

Czech: Feels like a pretty good matchup. They are softer to the combo G1 because they don't have Daze/Pierce, though they do have Thoughtseize and Hymn...They are also much softer to Mentor post-board because they don't have Bolts - usually the Fatal Pushes are gone and replaced with Diabolic Edicts. Their Flusters + Pyroblasts also look pretty bad vs Mentor. They don't have Daze so jamming turn 2 or 3 Mentor can get there - with a discard spell or Fluster backup of course.

Miracles: Pretty good matchup. Counterbalance doesn't do much vs Mentor when we are slower post-board, just have to resolve dig spells or discard spells before that - haven't seen much removal post-board out of them.

Prison: 3ball is the only thing I'm super worried about here. I've been boarding Mentors, bounce, and removal typically. 4C loam if they leave in PFire is pretty annoying because they can combat both plans pretty effectively through Leyline + PFire. Not sure what to do about that.

Storm: Pretty 50/50. I board in Flusters but not Mentors or Surgicals. Someone will eventually topdeck something and win.

Reanimator mirror: Very swingy but unfavored vs BR obviously. We can board 2 Flusters 2 Surgicals and hope. On the draw, mulling aggressively against a kept 7 is necessary. Against bad players who just grab Iona, bring in Swords to Plowshares.

Lands: Pretty interesting matchup, but only two matches of experience right now. Brought in Echoing Truths, but I think Mentors are horrible once they've seen them because of Tabernacle.

[scottpou]

I don't think that the BR build seems very competitive. You are giving up a lot over traditional BR Reanimator and not gaining a lot from playing the TinFins tech, other than fun :)
I for one choose fun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdOflj-esBA).

My current Br list

// 6 Creature
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

// 17 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Corpse Dance

// 21 Sorcery
3 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
2 Gamble
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Burning Wish

// 5 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

// 13 Land
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Sorcery
SB: 3 Burning Wish
SB: 2 Stronghold Gambit
SB: 2 By Force
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Collective Brutality
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Exhume
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony

[DNSolver]

No reason to have Tendrils maindeck if you can have Wish instead.

[scottpou]

Sometimes the mana isn't there. Sometimes the burning wish needs to be used to clear hate. I was actually thinking about pulling it out, but there's been some good discussions on the DDFT thread about opening up lines of play if you can squeeze the 1 in maindeck. I have found it valuable to have in the main. I would probably replace it with a TS if I did replace it.

EDIT: I have also dropped the 14th land and gone back to the 1 chrome mox. I got snagged several times over the last couple of weeks not having another mana source mid combo.

[Kobra_D]

@Karhummies

I get how the loop would work but it's not a matter about having 1 extra mana post combo. I am not particularly worried about card disadvantage when the game plans contain 2 concise game plans, the reanimate side of things and the tin fins win. Both of these don't need a lot of resources, you just need them to start.

It might also just not be in my play style.


I don't think that the BR build seems very competitive.

I strongly disagree. It goes faster, and can just do the good old reanimate plan if needed.

It's upgrade over the stock RB reanimator list in my mind is that Reanimator does not have a turn 1 win where this does.

Also, corner cases of CoBru for the slow tendrils is a small but non-zero percentage.

[DNSolver]

@scottpou I mean a 2nd Wish over the maindeck Tendrils. The mana will be accessible, you are using Children loop.

@Kobra_D My thoughts on BR Tinfins vs typical reanimator shell, want to expand on your "strong disagreement" with me with some points.

You have several huge sacrifices when you are using the TinFins strategy instead of typical BR. I agree that technically opponent going to zero life is a win. I also think that in 99% of cases, turn 1 Griselbrand + another creature in play (a typical BR turn 1 opening) is going to win anyway, unless you are not equipped with the proper creatures (ex. Grisel + Chancellor won't beat Lands, but Griselbrand + Tidespout easily will).

Another sacrifice is the fewer creatures. You only have 4 Griselbrand and possibly 4 Chancellor to combo with, assuming that Emrakul is not going to result in a win on turn 1 or 2. Typical BR will have 10 creatures. This means that Looting will bin a creature at a higher percentage. With only 4 copies of Entomb and no cantrips to find it, both decks need another way to put creatures in the graveyard. Both decks play Lootings and discard spells that can put creatures from hand to bin, but obviously having more creatures in the deck will result in that more often. Additionally, Children and Emrakul are either bad, or can even be *harmful or game-losing*, to draw, while any creature BR draws *can* be Reanimated effectively. If you play Chancellor as protection like BR (which you do, scottpau doesn't) there's the problem with Shallow Grave not working with it. So you are choosing between having less protection than BR or having a creature that doesn't work with 1/3 of your reanimation spells.

I like that your list is playing Reanimate. One sacrifice that scottpou's list has is that without the card Reanimate, you are not getting as many turn 1 Griselbrands. Count the mana - you need Dark rit or two petals while having Reanimate in the deck means that sometimes Dark Rit plus one petal will work. So we are equally "fast." Saying that a BR TinFins build "goes faster" to imply it comboes faster is just incorrect. Your combo enablers cost the same mana and you have the same number of them (12 reanimation, 4 entombs, 4 lootings, 8 discard).

I will now concede two points that I think are okay reasons to pursue BR Tinfins over BR Reanimator, but do not sway me enough compared to the above reasons because the above reasons address *consistency* rather than situations.

1) Perhaps you have a matchup-specific reason of something that cannot be beaten by Griselbrand + either Tidespout or Iona or Chancellor.

2) Perhaps you prefer having Shallow Grave to beat Surgical more easily.

[Karhumies]

Is Lim-Dul's Vault a better tool for finding Entomb, and Mentor post-board? I don't really like that it costs you a whole card to find it, because 1) Entomb is going to "cost" you another card, and 2) often you are looking for Mentor + 3rd mana source post-board.

I considered Intuition or Cunning Wish as another way to bin fatties, but other than running 7+ fatties and more discard / loot effects I don't see a more consistent way to bin Griselbrands.

Various tools from various colors:
Gamble
Grim Tutor
Living Wish
Eladamri's Call
Impulse
Lim-Dul's Vault
Intuition
Recruiter of the Guard

LDV tends to be the most versatile of the bunch as it's instant, cmc2, on color and finds anything. At the cost of -1 card and N life. Impulse has card parity, but digs only 4 cards deep for 2 mana. Intuition finds any 3-4of, but costs 3 mana and opens you up to Surgical.

Eladamri's Call could be nice due to cmc2, instant, card parity, but it's very off color and can not find Entomb in g1. Although it could find...Volrath's Shapeshifter (or something similar).

Running additional Young Pyros to supplement the Mentors would also be possible, but that's very offcolor as well. Gamble is mana efficient and no life loss but (semi) unreliable.

[Kobra_D]

My strong disagreement was in response to the line that the RB build itself is not competitive. A linear T1 gameplan, with a T1 back up, that can continue to threaten a win every turn of the game will always be decent.

As a comparison, belcher has a T1 win but if fizzles is a bit hosed. Where as Tin Fins can keep threatening a win with less of a reload time. Irrespective of the build, if it is functional in achieving this then I think any of them are as competitive as the sideboard hate that will come in post board. Sometimes, we're unlucky and variance does happen but it's not a controversial statement to say that G1 is ours to lose, not our opponents to win.

There is a concession between RB and TinFins. RB does get a slight more of a toolbox, but can back itself into a corner. We've all seen, heard about, or even played the T1 sire of insanity. Sometimes that's not good enough. Or Iona isn't always a lock. Edict effects can hose you out of no where. When you get the opportunity to reanimate a griselbrand somehow, and draw that first 7/14, the game is very much to your advantage but it is not over. In RB the story ends there but children provide that last out to close the game on the spot.

So yes, there are differences between reanimator and tin fins but from what I've seen it was always about RB opens up a tool box but gives your opponent more turns, where TinFins is going down on versatility to play less turns overall.

Reanimate has always been nice, it gives an extra out albeit the least appreciable. For Burning Wish builds I would strongly recommend trying LED, the value with wishing with 3 mana available is great.

My big issue with the UB version (originally was price when I started with this deck 3 yrs ago) is that it goes down on binning effects. We have 4 entomb and 8 discard in either list. Except I have 4 lootings where you've cut careful study. It's small, and brainstorm/ponder give you more inevitability but the extra looting effects do speed up and make the T1 a little more reliable.

We both have access to the same 4 card combo: Land, Ritual, Entomb, Shallow/Goryo. But I now get 1 extra 5 card opener which helps: Land, Looting, Petal, Griselbrand, Reanimate. Small difference, I agree, but having that extra redundancy early game is why I think the RB deck is faster than UB.

I cannot rebuild when it hits the fan like UB, but again, I'm trading the extra % I get in later turns for a slight advantage T1.

Maybe having the longevity is better suited for the fair meta that we seem to be in but I'm not here to go long, I just want to attack for 22 and explain what children of korlis does.... twice.

[DNSolver]

Oh, BR variants are a completely different deck than UBx. That's not questionable. Very very different, especially since BR can't run Mentor.

I was mostly arguing BR Reanimator shell vs the BR TinFins shell you had. However, your answers still make okay sense in the context you assumed. Except that part about the toolbox being bad. Your replacements for Tidespout, Iona, Sire (sadly, some people don't understand how bad it is) are Emrakul and Children, which don't do anything in hands that would result in Tidespout/Iona/Sire entering play. Pretty much, you will have hands like:

Land, Looting/thoughtseize, Petal, Reanimation spell, Children/Emrakul, (possibly more redundant mana, reanimation but NOT entomb)

While in a typical BR shell the Children/Emrakul would be a toolbox creature, and you would rather have that than nothing at all. Additionally, giving the opponent more turns doesn't matter if they're locked out (Iona) or can't play meaningful permanents (Tidespout).

[Kobra_D]

I'm not arguing against toll box decks, or tool box play styles in general (I play Kiki-Chord in modern for all it's worth), it's just like you said, sometimes RB reanimator goes off without entomb and is subject to whichever fatty they have in hand reducing the strength of the toolbox.

Plus storm is a deck which can always go off after we reanimate a threat including Iona. Sneak attack decks can do the same. Any deck with Karakas, the tool box is not trivial.

So, yes let me revise my statement, you're opening hands are slightly more prone to a mulligan along with the lack of a toolbox.

But I personally am perfectly willing to risk that in order to play TinFins.

Mentor is not a great sideboard plan in RB, but when miracles was around I ran it.

[Acclimation]

Yo, if y'all wanna play bad decks that want to do cool things, check this pile I've been tinkering with out:

2 Magus of the Mind
3 Griselbrand
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Death Wish
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Corpse Dance
3 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp

SB
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ground Seal
1 Buried Alive
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Corpse Dance
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle

Who needs to have a good deck when you can just chain Mind's Desires and also cast Deathwish?

DRS, make your opponents confused and also mana ramp and get random value (suck it, opposing Surgicals!)

Entomb for Past in Flames, so rad.

Deathwish, life loss hurts, sure, but when you can grab your entire SB, it makes it harder to get janked out in those game 1s.

Ground Seal and your own DRS a nonbo? Just swap them out!

I started in BUG for Ground Seal and Decay, and I took a cue from the Czech pile decks and added DRS as a form of mana ramp, as we need an extra blue to activate Magus, and sometimes an extra mana to cast Corpse Dance. I haven't ran into the issue of opponents removing DRS in response to Reanimation, but it is something to be aware of. I did bump into one instance of having out DRS and a Ground Seal, but given my opponent was running Surgical that game, it seemed worth the risk.

The list could be Grixis over BUG, since that new Ground Seal effect is colorless, and BW is better than Death Wish. Mana base you can just swap the Verdants and non USea duals to their Red counterparts, drop DRS, DW for BW and some amount of Ponder, then make the sideboard more of a standard 7 Wish targets, 8 non wish targets.

I kind of want Children in the deck, but going off with Magus doesn't require a high life total, and as long as you are above 1 life, you can still cast Death Wish, so I haven't bothered with trying to slot it in.

Is the list better than the stock list I usually champion? No, but it's certainly a blast to play for FNM or side events, and it's pretty sweet once it starts going off.

Pro tip: if you can't activate Magus for more than 6, reanimate Griselbrand first.

[.dk]

Yo, if y'all wanna play bad decks that want to do cool things, check this pile I've been tinkering with out:

2 Magus of the Mind
3 Griselbrand
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Death Wish
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Corpse Dance
3 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp

SB
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ground Seal
1 Buried Alive
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Corpse Dance
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle

Who needs to have a good deck when you can just chain Mind's Desires and also cast Deathwish?

DRS, make your opponents confused and also mana ramp and get random value (suck it, opposing Surgicals!)

Entomb for Past in Flames, so rad.

Deathwish, life loss hurts, sure, but when you can grab your entire SB, it makes it harder to get janked out in those game 1s.

Ground Seal and your own DRS a nonbo? Just swap them out!

I started in BUG for Ground Seal and Decay, and I took a cue from the Czech pile decks and added DRS as a form of mana ramp, as we need an extra blue to activate Magus, and sometimes an extra mana to cast Corpse Dance. I haven't ran into the issue of opponents removing DRS in response to Reanimation, but it is something to be aware of. I did bump into one instance of having out DRS and a Ground Seal, but given my opponent was running Surgical that game, it seemed worth the risk.

The list could be Grixis over BUG, since that new Ground Seal effect is colorless, and BW is better than Death Wish. Mana base you can just swap the Verdants and non USea duals to their Red counterparts, drop DRS, DW for BW and some amount of Ponder, then make the sideboard more of a standard 7 Wish targets, 8 non wish targets.

I kind of want Children in the deck, but going off with Magus doesn't require a high life total, and as long as you are above 1 life, you can still cast Death Wish, so I haven't bothered with trying to slot it in.

Is the list better than the stock list I usually champion? No, but it's certainly a blast to play for FNM or side events, and it's pretty sweet once it starts going off.

Pro tip: if you can't activate Magus for more than 6, reanimate Griselbrand first.


Alternative list I ran in a Legacy side at GP Santa Clara yesterday with a couple minor changes based on the event:

2 Badlands
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Brainstorm
3 Burning Wish
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Children of Korlis
2 Collective Brutality
2 Corpse Dance
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Griselbrand
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Magus of the Mind
4 Shallow Grave
2 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
Sideboard:

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Buried Alive
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 Grapeshot
2 Ground Seal
1 Massacre
1 Meltdown
1 Show and Tell
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tropical Island

Deck was hilarious and a blast to play. Would definitely run again - this build wasn't quite right. Something was slightly off, but not sure what as of yet. Maybe needs more Lim Dul's Vault or something.

[Karhumies]

Alternative list I ran in a Legacy side at GP Santa Clara yesterday with a couple minor changes based on the event:.

What are your thoughts about Magus of the mind? seems like post Griselbrand win more to me. Has it ever been good for you as the first animation target? Seems like a lottery machine without storm.

[.dk]

What are your thoughts about Magus of the mind? seems like post Griselbrand win more to me. Has it ever been good for you as the first animation target? Seems like a lottery machine without storm.

Magus is bonkers. But, like Acclimation said, you don't want it if you're going to Mind's Desire for <6. Your density of mana, cantrips, and tutors generally will get you there afterwards.

Some advantages in my eyes:

1. You don't need to go to nearly as low of a life total to combo off with Magus like you would with Children of Korlis loops
2. You don't have to run Emrakul - you can actually cast Magus fairly easily post board, and have a decent shot at mind's desiring the next turn. Not graveyard dependent
3. Playing a wish board gives you access to Burning Wish -> Empty, allowing you to play through a fair amount of hate that would normally be targeted at your graveyard
4. You're playing LED. That makes your Griselbrand activations soooo much better. Been looking for a reason to justify it's inclusion for years. The mana it generates (sac between Griselbrand activations) as well as being a discard outlet in response to your instant speed reanimation makes you a lot less reliant on Entomb, which has historically been the choke point of Tin Fins
5. Magus isn't legendary - this is a plus in that you don't care about Karakas, but a minus in that you don't get to run Goryo's Vengeance. Maybe this is neutral? Maybe it's negative overall? I dunno.

I have no idea if Magus of the Mind is better than traditional Tin Fins. I do know that it has different strengths and weaknesses, which merits testing and tuning unto itself. It may be a better build in specific metas. Something like Pomegrant's old Burning Wish build - sometimes it was better than Esper Tin Fins, sometimes not. Who knows about this? Likely these lists are trash but... look at my and Richard Cheese's original lists from GP Atlanta in 2012. They were trash too - so who knows?

[DNSolver]

What's the typical play pattern with Magus that you guys are planning on? I don't see how it's better than getting Children going.

The way I see it, if you turn 1 with dark rit -> entomb Grisel -> Shallow Grave, draw 14, attack, draw 7, petal, you are at 4 storm. Now if you dark rit -> entomb magus -> shallow grave you still need a blue mana (say, petal) and that gets you to storm 8. Now Magus essentially "draws" you a set of 9 cards you can cast for free. Wouldn't you rather have gotten Children of Korlis, (!)not needing the extra colored mana(!), and drawn 21 more, then kill by assembling Emrakul loop? With 4 Petal 2 Chrome Mox I'm having a hard time missing on Children of Korlis on 21 cards, but you could miss on 2 of those effects.

One of your points was the low life total "required" for Children of Korlis. Well, you are still going to need to go that low to draw cards with Grisel to play the Magus in the first place, right?

Not "needing" to run Emrakul isn't really what I would consider it. If my opponent goes turn 1 Chalice on zero into turn 2 threat, or something that is going to seriously inhibit the combo kill with Griselbrand, such as Revoker when I don't have a removal spell, I actively go for Emrakul because it wipes that permanent, deals them 15 so Grisel is instantly winning later, all while setting them back some land drops and hatepieces. Essentially, we both start the game with fewer cards in hand, but I get to start with some lands in play and ideally able to rebuild a bit faster. Another example is Leovold - one of two possible lines against that (without a removal in hand) is just making Emrakul and taking out their DRS, Leovold, and some lands. The other is making Griselbrand to block the Leovold, which could have issues against Diabolic Edict or an untapped DRS once they untap.

Shouldn't you guys be on Exhume over Corpse Dance if you don't have Emrakul?

[Acclimation]

Need haste for Magus, that's why no Exhume.

Don't think, we're jamming a deck that plays both Bargain and Mind's Desire, it's sweet AF.

Heck, we're jamming onion bursts over playing ANT, TES, or standard Reanimator. We're not here because this deck is the best combo deck, we're here because it's a flashier combo that's still very competitive.

Is the Magus list better than any of these options? Probably not, but man is it fun to jam.

[.dk]

What's the typical play pattern with Magus that you guys are planning on? I don't see how it's better than getting Children going.

The way I see it, if you turn 1 with dark rit -> entomb Grisel -> Shallow Grave, draw 14, attack, draw 7, petal, you are at 4 storm. Now if you dark rit -> entomb magus -> shallow grave you still need a blue mana (say, petal) and that gets you to storm 8. Now Magus essentially "draws" you a set of 9 cards you can cast for free. Wouldn't you rather have gotten Children of Korlis, (!)not needing the extra colored mana(!), and drawn 21 more, then kill by assembling Emrakul loop? With 4 Petal 2 Chrome Mox I'm having a hard time missing on Children of Korlis on 21 cards, but you could miss on 2 of those effects.

One of your points was the low life total "required" for Children of Korlis. Well, you are still going to need to go that low to draw cards with Grisel to play the Magus in the first place, right?

Not "needing" to run Emrakul isn't really what I would consider it. If my opponent goes turn 1 Chalice on zero into turn 2 threat, or something that is going to seriously inhibit the combo kill with Griselbrand, such as Revoker when I don't have a removal spell, I actively go for Emrakul because it wipes that permanent, deals them 15 so Grisel is instantly winning later, all while setting them back some land drops and hatepieces. Essentially, we both start the game with fewer cards in hand, but I get to start with some lands in play and ideally able to rebuild a bit faster. Another example is Leovold - one of two possible lines against that (without a removal in hand) is just making Emrakul and taking out their DRS, Leovold, and some lands. The other is making Griselbrand to block the Leovold, which could have issues against Diabolic Edict or an untapped DRS once they untap.

Shouldn't you guys be on Exhume over Corpse Dance if you don't have Emrakul?

Like I said, I'm not convinced this version is any better than regular Tin Fins. It's just... different. And again, it may just be more similar to Esper Tin Fins vs. Burning Wish Tin Fins from a while back. You do get to play LED and Wishes, which open up Empty the Warrens lines and actual answers against decks that traditionally give us trouble.

Also, give the amount of mana rocks, it's very possible you go for Magus first rather than Griselbrand as your storm count is generally higher.

/edit: also what Acclimation said - you want Corpse Dance for haste, since Vengeance doesn't get Magus

[Kobra_D]

I always bring this up when it comes to magus but a consideration is dragon's breath. I saw the card in an oath's deck many moons past and it always seemed cute.

[.dk]

I always bring this up when it comes to magus but a consideration is dragon's breath. I saw the card in an oath's deck many moons past and it always seemed cute.

Ah, that's an interesting one. I had considered reckless charge as you can wish for it and flash it back. This is a cool idea!

[Karhumies]

2. You don't have to run Emrakul - you can actually cast Magus fairly easily post board, and have a decent shot at mind's desiring the next turn. Not graveyard dependent


This is the biggest difference in my eyes: you don't need to run a Monastery Mentor package in the SB because hardcasting Magus in g2 is actually a solid plan B, and we can already do that with MD slots. After all, our opponents are not at all likely to leave creature removal in to capitalize on Magus lack of haste. So we are not even diluting the main plan too much when we sideboard!

The saved space gives us extra SB slots to run Ground Seal (or the new cmc1 artifact going forward). Which has great synergy with Shallow Grave + Corpse Dance animations.


LED + Wish, Emrakul you can run these regardless of Magus IMO. With or without. Of course easier to find wishboard space without Mentor package though.

Children you are running even in the Magus build so you can go for a Children + Grisel "loop" into a ridiculous Magus activation, pass the turn and win. Not too different from Emrakul actually.

[namewithoutname]

Hello guys,

I'm tinkering with TinFins at the moment and try to come up with a reactive SB.

Is

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
3 Silence
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Serenity

still 'state of the art' or do you like other reactive Boards better in the straight UWB Version? MD I'm running the 3 Unmask / 4 Therapy split.

Best wishes