[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Acclimation]

Hello guys,

I'm tinkering with TinFins at the moment and try to come up with a reactive SB.

Is

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
3 Silence
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Serenity

still 'state of the art' or do you like other reactive Boards better in the straight UWB Version? MD I'm running the 3 Unmask / 4 Therapy split.

Best wishes

I don't run Silence any more, as it's not as useful as it was. I personally like Swords to Plowshares, as the targeted removal has been useful vs DRS decks.

[KaiSchafroth]

I don't run Silence any more, as it's not as useful as it was. I personally like Swords to Plowshares, as the targeted removal has been useful vs DRS decks.

I'd second this
I think (not that I'm necessarily saying this is "right") the last reactive board I ran, compared to yours, was StPs for Silence and I think a Flusterstorm for the 3rd CoV

[Acclimation]

I'd second this
I think (not that I'm necessarily saying this is "right") the last reactive board I ran, compared to yours, was StPs for Silence and I think a Flusterstorm for the 3rd CoV

Also a good choice.

FWIW, my default sideboard at the moment is something like this:

4 Mentor
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Surgical
1 Needle
2 Serenity
2 Massacre
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Plains

Usually when I board in Mentor, I take out the Goryos, Children, Emrakul, a couple Griselbrand, and a few Shallow Grave, leaving in some number of Entomb, Shallow Grave, Griselbrand, since you can occasionally get windows to sneak it in there. You also get the benefit of going Entomb for Therapy, and Grave reanimating Mentor to make a bunch of tokens is occasionally relevant. (I think my boarding whenever I want Mentor looks like: + 4 Mentor, +2 Serenity, +2 Surgical, +2 Swords +1 Plains, -3 Goryo -1 Children -1 Emrakul -2 Griselbrand -2 Shallow -1 Entomb -1 Reanimate/Sea/Delta (depending on if I want more lands or not))

Plains is in the SB because there are enough Blood Moon decks around me that I want to be able to get down Serenity and Mentor without relying on Petal, as these Moon decks also like to play Chalice.

I dropped down to one Chain because it feels bad getting your Mentor bounced by a copy of Chain, and the decks that I bring it in for I usually would rather see Mentor or Serenity. Still a good catch-all that I want at least one, but for a full reactive SB, I wouldn't play less than 2.

Serenity is one of those cards that I never leave home without 2, it's always amazing, and rarely do I get locked out on Chalice at 2.

You can always swap the numbers on Surgical and Needle, but I prefer having the free spell with Mentor, and I run into enough GY decks that I like having the option.

Massacre you can always drop if you never run into D&T, but given that it's always a popular deck, I never feel safe leaving it at home. Generally I don't bring in Mentor, as getting into a ground battle with Maverick and D&T is a bad time.

Usually I shave Probe and Ponder when bringing in non-Mentor stuff.

[leegoo]

It's been a long time since I posted, but I had to comment. Saw .dk's list with Magus and had to load it up on Mtgo. +1Magus +1 Dragon Breath, -1 Gris -1 random cut (brutality I think I cut just because I don't have a full set)
Best non-vintage magic I've played in years. Dbreath lets you chain Magi off of each other, which lets you showboat for the lulz... which is the best kind of Magic.

Great work guys. Love it.

[Acclimation]

It's been a long time since I posted, but I had to comment. Saw .dk's list with Magus and had to load it up on Mtgo. +1Magus +1 Dragon Breath, -1 Gris -1 random cut (brutality I think I cut just because I don't have a full set)
Best non-vintage magic I've played in years. Dbreath lets you chain Magi off of each other, which lets you showboat for the lulz... which is the best kind of Magic.

Great work guys. Love it.

.dk and I have been bouncing Magus ideas off each other for the past month, the deck is just too much fun to play, especially if you're a showboatin' SOB.

[.dk]

It's been a long time since I posted, but I had to comment. Saw .dk's list with Magus and had to load it up on Mtgo. +1Magus +1 Dragon Breath, -1 Gris -1 random cut (brutality I think I cut just because I don't have a full set)
Best non-vintage magic I've played in years. Dbreath lets you chain Magi off of each other, which lets you showboat for the lulz... which is the best kind of Magic.

Great work guys. Love it.


daww thanks! We've got some more hotness coming too, I think... so stay tuned! We're definitely degenerates here

And I think those changes you made are good - although I did like having more Griselbrand than Magus, as sometimes Magus is balls when you're reanimating it. Griselbrand is almost always good. :)

[Acclimation]

New hotness:

1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
2 Collective Brutality
2 Corpse Dance
4 Dark Ritual
2 Mastermind's Acquisition
4 Entomb
4 Griselbrand
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Magus of the Mind
1 Past in Flames
3 Ponder
4 Shallow Grave
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Silent Gravestone
1 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Collective Brutality


Ended up going to FNM tonight and played the above list (only the bayous and badlands were their shockland counterparts because I am a poor), and 3-0d versus UR Delver, Burn, and UW stoneblade.

Highlights:
Rd 1 vs UR Delver: 2-0, game one flipped magus for 14 and had enough mana to wish for Emrakul and cast Emrakul, but opponent scooped when I grabbed the Emrakul
Rd 2 vs Burn: store has a stream, so I flipped magus for 14 on camera in g3
Rd 3 vs stoneblade: on stream again, game 1 I bricked on reanimation so I chained rituals into entomb into past in flames, flashed back cantrips to find reanimation for magus x=13. game 3 I beat double flusterstorm+surgical on griselbrand on t3.

Deck is siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick.

[scottpou]

I already purchased 4 Mastermind's Acquisition to replace burning wish. Have also been trying both BW and MA with LED's. There's so many options open now... Still working on 3 different versions. March is coming up quick! STG Worcester

[.dk]

I already purchased 4 Mastermind's Acquisition to replace burning wish. Have also been trying both BW and MA with LED's. There's so many options open now... Still working on 3 different versions. March is coming up quick! STG Worcester

Yeah, you end up making so much mana from LED's and Cabal Rituals that casting Acquisition is not that hard. And... it doesn't exile itself like Burning Wish, so it's very very good with Past in Flames. Super happy Acclimation got to try it out at a real event - mine haven't shown up in the mail yet, so i was forced to play traditional Tin Fins at FNM last night. Went a casual 4-1 after not having played the deck in a couple years. Felt good. Mentor still gets unsuspecting fools... :)

Also, for reference, my current sideboard for Bizarro Stormy (Magus Fins) is:

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Ground Seal
1 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
1 Show and Tell
1 Silent Gravestone
1 Tendrils of Agony

Ground Seals might want to all be Silent Gravestone - not sure yet as I haven't played live games with it. My thoughts were Cabal Ritual into Mastermind's Acquisition fetches and casts Gravestone, whereas Ground Seal is probably a little better as a card to be boarded in, since it cantrips.

I have no idea wtf Acclimation is doing with an Emrakul in the sideboard. :P

Some main deck differences as well from Acclimation's - I cut Ponders for 4 Gitaxian Probes and have Therapy in place of Thoughtseize. Again, not sure which (if either) are better/correct though. I might just like Gitaxian Probe. That said... my Ponders are signed, and Gitaxian Probes are impossible to get signed so maybe I'll make the switch to his config. :)

[Acclimation]

I like Silent Gravestone a lot. The 1 mana is helpful, and we can easily drop it off a ritual and continue jamming our combo, whereas Ground Seal requires us to wait a turn. Sure, drawing a card is nice, but I think 1 cmc and colorless is much easier and quicker to get down.




I have no idea wtf Acclimation is doing with an Emrakul in the sideboard. :P

It's all about sending a message, and maybe because I didn't have a Show and Tell and needed a 15th SB card. Heck, it lets us win through Leyline if you don't want to wish for bounce to get rid of it, and maybe some other weird corner cases. Other cards I considered: Grapeshot, Children, Aetherflux Reservoir, another Ground Seal, Corpse Dance, Therapy, Probe, Surgical. Really, it could be anything that's useful, and I just chose something flashy, and has weird corner cases. Heck, I could even board it in and play closer to the standard build if I really wanted to.


Some main deck differences as well from Acclimation's - I cut Ponders for 4 Gitaxian Probes and have Therapy in place of Thoughtseize. Again, not sure which (if either) are better/correct though. I might just like Gitaxian Probe. That said... my Ponders are signed, and Gitaxian Probes are impossible to get signed so maybe I'll make the switch to his config. :)

My thought process is that Ponder gives me a better chance to find the missing piece, and I had a couple games where I was spinning my wheels, and in one game I had to tutor PiF to cantrip, and ponder found me the reanimation spell, whereas Probe would have just been sad times. I also feel good about my soul reads, so I'm not too worried about the lack of info, and Thoughtseize does a good enough job. I do prefer Therapy, but it does lose value if I don't have Probe.

[GhostXEmpire]

New hotness:

1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
2 Collective Brutality
2 Corpse Dance
4 Dark Ritual
2 Mastermind's Acquisition
4 Entomb
4 Griselbrand
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Magus of the Mind
1 Past in Flames
3 Ponder
4 Shallow Grave
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Silent Gravestone
1 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Collective Brutality


Ended up going to FNM tonight and played the above list (only the bayous and badlands were their shockland counterparts because I am a poor), and 3-0d versus UR Delver, Burn, and UW stoneblade.

Highlights:
Rd 1 vs UR Delver: 2-0, game one flipped magus for 14 and had enough mana to wish for Emrakul and cast Emrakul, but opponent scooped when I grabbed the Emrakul
Rd 2 vs Burn: store has a stream, so I flipped magus for 14 on camera in g3
Rd 3 vs stoneblade: on stream again, game 1 I bricked on reanimation so I chained rituals into entomb into past in flames, flashed back cantrips to find reanimation for magus x=13. game 3 I beat double flusterstorm+surgical on griselbrand on t3.

Deck is siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick.
Where is this footage you speak of?
I am getting back into Legacy and I need to be sold on a deck :P

[Acclimation]

Oh hey, they did post the stream:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/220328149?t=01h34m40s

I skipped ahead to game 1. I should rewatch to make sure I had my stories straight.

Note (as I'm watching)- the angle is really bad, so there's some glare on my side where my lands are. No commentary either. But you can see chat, so that's rad.

[scottpou]

I tested out both Magus. I feel like they are win more a lot of times. I am really enjoying the flexibility LED & Burning Wish give to find answers if needed. Side boarding is usually: IN: DD Package (-1 DD) OUT: 2x grizzlebees, 1x CoK, 3x Goryo's, 1x GP

// Creature (6)
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Instant (13)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance

// Sorcery (18)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
4 Thoughtseize
2 Unmask

// Artifact (8)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// Land (13)
2 Badlands
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats


//Sideboard (15)

// DD Package (8)
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Doomsday
1 Act on Impulse

// UTILITY (7)
1 Exhume
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 By Force
1 Council's Judgment
1 Paraselene

[.dk]

I tested out both Magus. I feel like they are win more a lot of times. I am really enjoying the flexibility LED & Burning Wish give to find answers if needed. Side boarding is usually: IN: DD Package (-1 DD) OUT: 2x grizzlebees, 1x CoK, 3x Goryo's, 1x GP

// Creature (6)
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Instant (13)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance

// Sorcery (18)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
4 Thoughtseize
2 Unmask

// Artifact (8)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// Land (13)
2 Badlands
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats


//Sideboard (15)

// DD Package (8)
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Doomsday
1 Act on Impulse

// UTILITY (7)
1 Exhume
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 By Force
1 Council's Judgment
1 Paraselene


I still don't like Doomsday as a transformation for this deck as much as Mentor. It's not quite enough of a different axis to fight on.

Cool mardu list though - but I do wonder why you're running all thought seize over some number of Cabal Therapy. Therapy lets you sac a griselbrand if you fizzle to make sure you have another one in the yard for the next turn.

All that said - I also think that not running Brainstorm and Ponder is removing a strength of this deck as well. But hey, you do you. :)

[Acclimation]

One of my biggest issues with a Doomsday sideboard is that Surgical Extraction is the most common form of hate right now, and even if it doesn't remove a card we care about, a Surgical after resolving Doomsday messes up the order of the pile and can throw the plan off.

Sure, it dodges Cage, RiP, DRS, Leyline, Relic, and every other form of graveyard hate, but the most common hate card forces a shuffle and that shuffle can ruin a well crafted pile.

[scottpou]

I still don't like Doomsday as a transformation for this deck as much as Mentor. It's not quite enough of a different axis to fight on.
The main deck already has another avenue to win with EtW, and I have to admit it's still enjoyable to make 10+ gobs on turn 1 if that's what my hand is showing me. I like the option DD gives for other lines of play to either storm out without the graveyard, meandeck, or shelldock/emmy. Are they optimal no, but they do give me many options, sometimes with two in the same piles.


Cool mardu list though
Thank you! I am trying to do some different things. I know they won't always be popular, but how else can we improve?


I do wonder why you're running all thought seize over some number of Cabal Therapy.
Almost exactly a year ago, I was running a BU list that had 3 Unmask, 3 Cabal Therapy, and 1 Duress main deck as the disruption. (It was the full 15 DD transformation sideboard) I was very in tune with the meta and was very aware of what pieces of hate I needed to focus on for Therapy. However, I made a wrong call on the critical turn that lost me a weekly (we were top 2 seeds). Also, I will be attending a STG weekend where there's no way I'm going to know every deck and there will be plenty of brainstorms. I don't want to be naming pieces that BS hid.


Therapy lets you sac a griselbrand if you fizzle to make sure you have another one in the yard for the next turn.
I am very aware of the interaction, but I have been testing extensively the past two months and have yet to run into a situation where it was relevant. I was very surprised myself. I feel the LED's mana production has been crucial to the perceived decreased fizzle-rate. After thinking about it, upping Grizzel to 4 probably assisted as well.


All that said - I also think that not running Brainstorm and Ponder is removing a strength of this deck as well. But hey, you do you. :)
I have played blue in tournaments for over a decade. I am very aware of how convenient and useful BS is with fetch lands. I have the volcs and useas, but I really wanted to try to make this deck non-blue. I guess I consider it a challenge because my friends also attending SCG require FoW and BS to feel comfortable/confident. As I've stated previously, I'm playing TinFins to burst some onions, grab a snack, and wait for my next opponent.

[scottpou]

One of my biggest issues with a Doomsday sideboard is that Surgical Extraction is the most common form of hate right now, and even if it doesn't remove a card we care about, a Surgical after resolving Doomsday messes up the order of the pile and can throw the plan off. Sure, it dodges Cage, RiP, DRS, Leyline, Relic, and every other form of graveyard hate, but the most common hate card forces a shuffle and that shuffle can ruin a well crafted pile.
You are absolutely correct Acclimation! I would rather wait a turn and see my opponent's hand with GP, TS, or Unmask before playing DD on that same turn. Otherwise, you're leaving yourself more open than a 7-Eleven.
That being said, having the option to go around "Cage, RiP, DRS, Leyline, Relic, and every other form of graveyard hate" is very appealing to me.

[scottpou]

Anyone else going to SCG Worcester Open?

[Acclimation]

No Worcester, but definitely Seattle.

[scottpou]

When is Seattle?

[Acclimation]

When is Seattle?

April 6-8th

[MDHackbert]

Strictly speaking, the Legacy GP Main Event is on Friday the 6th and Saturday the 7th. (of April)

[Kobra_D]

Anyone else going to SCG Worcester Open?

I want to burst onions next week the SCG event but I don't know if my friend who would drive is going yet.

Good luck to anyone who tries to go for it.

[MrFrowny_]

I want to burst onions next week the SCG event but I don't know if my friend who would drive is going yet.

Good luck to anyone who tries to go for it.

I'm trying to go to SCG Dallas next month and jam some g-daddies at the Legacy side events,

[.dk]

I'm going to my LGS on Monday in Boulder! Yeah! Also I'm not playing this deck

[Acclimation]

I think tonight I'm going to think about another deck at the bar tonight instead of going to FNM.

[.dk]

I think tonight I'm going to think about another deck at the bar tonight instead of going to FNM.

I don't understand why you would do that? How bizarre

[Acclimation]

I don't understand why you would do that? How bizarre

We both know that I have bizarre desires. I might even consider a dark n stormy for my drink acquisition tonight.

[scottpou]

Jammed a bunch of games this weekend with a focus on documenting sideboard usage. Made several minor tweaks, and now my build is:

// Creature (6)
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Instant (15)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance

// Sorcery (19)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
4 Thoughtseize
3 Unmask

// Artifact (7)
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

// Land (13)
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats

//Sideboard (15)
1 Exhume
1 Collective Brutality
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 By Force
1 Stronghold Gambit
4 Doomsday
1 Act on Impulse
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Pithing Needle

[.dk]

Jammed a bunch of games this weekend with a focus on documenting sideboard usage. Made several minor tweaks, and now my build is:

// Creature (6)
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Instant (15)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance

// Sorcery (19)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
4 Thoughtseize
3 Unmask

// Artifact (7)
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

// Land (13)
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats

//Sideboard (15)
1 Exhume
1 Collective Brutality
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 By Force
1 Stronghold Gambit
4 Doomsday
1 Act on Impulse
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Pithing Needle


So... you only have 6 ways to draw into your doomsday pile (faithless looting sorta counts, so maybe 10)? That seems like a frequent pass the turn setup, unless I'm missing something. That sounds risky to me.

[scottpou]

So... you only have 6 ways to draw into your doomsday pile (faithless looting sorta counts, so maybe 10)? That seems like a frequent pass the turn setup, unless I'm missing something. That sounds risky to me.

You are correct, and pass the turns are always risky. I tried several things including increasing the bauble count and even adding Tormenting Voice, but then it felt like too much dilution. So that's why the Unmask count was increased for more turn 1/2 disruption to clear the pass the turn. Originally the CoBr was a Duress, but I needed to get rid of Pyroclasm so CoBr does a good job of filling both roles.

EDIT: I tried Street Wraiths too and helped with Unmask, but it doesn't offer the utility that Bauble nor Gitaxian Probe does.

[mistervader]

What do you guys normally board out to deal with Czech Pile in the Magus lists? And would you recommend going 3 Grisel, 1 Emmy in the MD to replace Emmy with S and T in that list?

Loving the deck but always had problems with boarding.

[Acclimation]

Czech:
-2 ponder
-1 GB
-1 LED

+3 Gravestone
+1 Chain of Vapor

Don't play Show and Tell in the board, don't play Emrakul.

Show and Tell is horrendously bad (as we've found out) and Emrakul is fun but we don't have as much going on to make it as good.

[scottpou]

I've spent the last two days playing a nonDD sideboard. I wanted to try the valid suggestions offered by you most esteemed members. I still prefer the BR version with burning wish so this where I'm currently at:

// 7 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 6 Creature
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// 16 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
4 Goryo's Vengeance

// 18 Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
3 Unmask
3 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe

// 13 Land
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
// 4 Instant
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Exhume
SB: 1 Stronghold Gambit
SB: 1 Dreadbore / Ruinous Path
SB: 1 Collective Brutality
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Massacre / Pyroclasm / Toxic Deluge

I started out with W instead of G (Scrubland instead of Bayou), but I found Abrupt decay to be more consistent than Wear // Tear

[Jblinder]

I've spent the last two days playing a nonDD sideboard. I wanted to try the valid suggestions offered by you most esteemed members. I still prefer the BR version with burning wish so this where I'm currently at:

// 7 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 6 Creature
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// 16 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
4 Goryo's Vengeance

// 18 Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
3 Unmask
3 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe

// 13 Land
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
// 4 Instant
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Exhume
SB: 1 Stronghold Gambit
SB: 1 Dreadbore / Ruinous Path
SB: 1 Collective Brutality
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Massacre / Pyroclasm / Toxic Deluge

I started out with W instead of G (Scrubland instead of Bayou), but I found Abrupt decay to be more consistent than Wear // Tear

I would encourage you to try +1 LED, +4 Exhume, -4 goryo, -1 emrakul.

I know cutting emrakul seems like sacrelige, but he is not needed here, as burning wish for tendrils will get the job done. You don’t need him; with all the mana LEDs provide between activations, you are unlikely to fizzle (even off of exhume! Try it you’ll see). And as we all know from experience, even the times we do fizzle we are likely to win the next turn, and even moeeso when griselbrand sticks around with exhume.

In addition, emrakul does not play nice with LED, as having him in hand will prevent shallow grave crack led discard griselbrand (will trigger shuffle). And it’s one less dead draw.

This opens so many more lines where you use LED to bin griselbrand with exhume or SG on the stack. It also allows for a silent gravestone or two in the board.

Edit: +3 exhume...forgot you want one in board. The last slot should def be 1 unburial rites. Entomb for unburial when you have LED + griselbrand is invaluable. Griselbrand, LED, entomb, ritual, 3 lands does nothing in your build. With one unburial in the 60 it makes t1 griselbrand. (1 scrubland also prob goes in).

[mistervader]

Czech:
-2 ponder
-1 GB
-1 LED

+3 Gravestone
+1 Chain of Vapor

Don't play Show and Tell in the board, don't play Emrakul.

Show and Tell is horrendously bad (as we've found out) and Emrakul is fun but we don't have as much going on to make it as good.

So I take it the Emrakul is no longer in your SB, which means you're now running triple Silent Gravestone in its place? How do you feel about putting one Ground Seal there, just for the instant cantrip?

Overall, I took the deck to a small tourney and fizzled out. I even made some mistakes with the list, such as Scrubland (!) instead of Badlands, and a fourth Cabal Ritual instead of a basic Swamp. Goes to show I should read more closely... grumble. I'm sure I'll do better next time, once I get the hang of boarding. I've been so bad at it with this deck, not knowing what to take out.

[Acclimation]

So I take it the Emrakul is no longer in your SB, which means you're now running triple Silent Gravestone in its place? How do you feel about putting one Ground Seal there, just for the instant cantrip?

Overall, I took the deck to a small tourney and fizzled out. I even made some mistakes with the list, such as Scrubland (!) instead of Badlands, and a fourth Cabal Ritual instead of a basic Swamp. Goes to show I should read more closely... grumble. I'm sure I'll do better next time, once I get the hang of boarding. I've been so bad at it with this deck, not knowing what to take out.

Nope, no Emrakul, yes to triple Gravestone. You can totally run a ground seal if you splash green.

And don't fret too much, none of us actually know how to properly sideboard yet.

[quadich]

i had already lost interest in legacy. too many deathrite shamans i told myself.

Then i found this masterpiece.

Thank you for revitalizing my interest in the format.

[ElDorte]

Hey Guys

i was gone from Tin Fins for some time and i saw this list popping up on MTGTOP8 and nobody seemed to notice or didnt need to discuss because its not the new hotness.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18254&d=313192&f=LE

it looks pretty sweet to me and i will propably test it on my next FNM. how do you guys feel about this list and the rather odd sideboard cards?

[Acclimation]

Hey Guys

i was gone from Tin Fins for some time and i saw this list popping up on MTGTOP8 and nobody seemed to notice or didnt need to discuss because its not the new hotness.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18254&d=313192&f=LE

it looks pretty sweet to me and i will propably test it on my next FNM. how do you guys feel about this list and the rather odd sideboard cards?

The main deck looks fine, but the sb cards are definitely odd.

Moon seems like a dubious way to punish decks, and Strix seems like a sad slot.

But hey, sometimes weird things work when you can just Bargain for 14 cards.

[Kobra_D]

The main deck looks fine, but the sb cards are definitely odd.

Moon seems like a dubious way to punish decks, and Strix seems like a sad slot.

But hey, sometimes weird things work when you can just Bargain for 14 cards.

I mostly agree with this. The 4c list seems to be overextending just to have SB blood moon. I would probably want careful study in the main, I don't like relying on entomb and discard alone. It seems like this person is trying to board into a slower deck, and unless the slower plan is turbo mentor I don't see it being reliable. But who am I to argue with results.

[Acclimation]

Nah, careful study is bad in this version, we don't have the fatty density standard reanimator lists run, so it loses lots of equity for us. We tried it a year ago when we bumped up to 4 GB with Unmask, and it still wasn't good.

And I'll argue with results- slow plans are probably pretty bad if they aren't mentor based, and janking these greedy AF 4c decks out with Blood Moon seems fine, until you remember that Silent Gravestone also does a good job at protecting our onions and also doesn't mess up our manabase at the same time.

[Kobra_D]

Nah, careful study is bad in this version, we don't have the fatty density standard reanimator lists run, so it loses lots of equity for us. We tried it a year ago when we bumped up to 4 GB with Unmask, and it still wasn't good.

And I'll argue with results- slow plans are probably pretty bad if they aren't mentor based, and janking these greedy AF 4c decks out with Blood Moon seems fine, until you remember that Silent Gravestone also does a good job at protecting our onions and also doesn't mess up our manabase at the same time.

That's fair. I like the card not only as a bin outlet but just because it helps churn past cards in a way that ponder does not here like it does for storm. Brainstorm is likely the solution to all problems and so I can see justification for moving away from the excess outlets like careful study and unmask.

[Zllig]

BG Living Wish Tin Fins on camera. Looks fucking sick, draw with Grisel, Wish for Children, draw more, Wish for Labman, draw more and win. Hope a list gets posted soon, this looks too fun.

[_WD40_]

Anyone found that living wish Decklist yet? If so, please post. Thanks

[Jblinder]

BG Living Wish Tin Fins on camera. Looks fucking sick, draw with Grisel, Wish for Children, draw more, Wish for Labman, draw more and win. Hope a list gets posted soon, this looks too fun.

Wasn’t me on camera today, but I created the deck. I’m clone103 online, you can look up my latest 5-0 lists. The deck was featured on channelfireball’s deck of the day about a month ago. I’m currently 6-2 in the GP (started 6-0 with no byes). The list I’m on currently:

3 griselbrand
3 hexmage
1 children
4 entomb
4 exhume
4 shallow grave
1 unburial rites
4 thoughtseize
1 unmask
4 living wish
4 dark ritual
4 led
4 petal
3 Depths
3 stage
3 polluted delta
3 v catacombs
2 swamp
2 bayou
1 scrubland
2 urborg
2 swamp


Sb:

1 children of korlis
1 griselbrand
1 hexmage
1 Laboratory maniac
1 loyal retainers
1 necrotic ooze
1 Depths
1 stage
1 karakas
1 sejiri steppe
3 silent gravestone
2 pithing needle


Just saw that kenji Tsumura 5-0d last week with my exact list from the CFB article. Looks like he tweeted about it and recorded on YouTube. I’m stoked and honored!

Edit: watched the matt Nass feature match. Looks like he might be on the exact list I got my last trophy with and the one from the CFB article: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-tin-fins-depths-legacy/

Necrotic ooze is my new tech against Needle naming Griselbrand. It’s been pulling its weight. Rec sage sounds good in theory to blow up a blood moon with dd in play, but honestly dragon stompy is a good matchup already believe it or not. Chalice on 1 isn’t even that strong and hexmage can put it to zero at a key moment (chalice on 0 is actually worse, but you play out your stuff first then blow the hexmage). Ensnaring bridge folds to labman. Sphere of resistance out of stuff like lands is the real problem and Rec sage is far too slow to beat that. Been loving the ooze.

[.dk]

Soooooo for those interested in any of the Magus of the Mind shenanigans we were talking about... new thread is posted in N&D here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32342-Bizarro-Stormy-(or-How-I-Learned-to-Stop-Worrying-and-Love-Griselbrand)

IMO (and a few others), it's built differently enough and plays different enough from Tin Fins to warrant it's own thread and primer. So here you go. If Tin Fins just wasn't degenerate and show-boaty enough for you, come join us in the Bizzaro Stormy thread. :)

[area]

Came back to the Tin Fins thread after not checking in for months to find chatter about the Living Wish version after seeing it on stream, and now I see this Bizzaro Stormy list too?

This is supremely unhelpful before European EW and Birmingham...

[scottpou]

I will type up a full report sometime soon, but I went 5-4 at the STG Worcester Open on Saturday. I punted the first and last round. I had the kills, but didn't see it in my hand until it was too late. That's what happens when you haven't played in a big tournament for over a year. I went with a reactive sideboard, and I only used 5 cards all day. So on Sunday, I decided to only play in the first Legacy Challenge due to time constraints with my buddy. I also wanted to just have some fun and burst onions. I should have taken this approach on Saturday because I had so much fun. Everyone stopping to look and cheer for DD is always good fun (except for my opponent). I had a lot of compliments all day, and in only 4 rounds had LM, ToA, & EtW kills in games 2/3. I lost the third round, but I had the kill game 2 after winning the 1st and didn't see the Petal in my hand that I needed. I was pleased with 3-1, and I am going to stick with a DD sideboard. I know Emmy doesn't love LED, but he saved me in several games during the weekend. So after a bit more tweaking and hating the card disadvantage Unmask gives in games 2/3, here's my current list:


// 6 Creature
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// 12 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave

// 21 Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
1 Unburial Rites (Props to Jblinder)
2 Exhume (Props to Jblinder)

// 7 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 14 Land
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

// 15 Sideboard

1 Exhume
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 By Force
4 Doomsday
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Act on Impulse
2 Edge of Autumn


Sideboarding:
-3 Griselbrand, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Exhume, -1 Unburial Rites
+3 Doomsday, +2 Edge of Autumn, +1 Act on Impulse, +1 Laboratory Maniac, +1 Shelldock Isle

[Animal]

@scottpou, I'm not familiar with Doomsday piles, but wanna share what kind of piles you build after the sideboard and how they work out? I'm guessing something shelldock isle + emrakul shenanigans.

[scottpou]

@scottpou, I'm not familiar with Doomsday piles, but wanna share what kind of piles you build after the sideboard and how they work out? I'm guessing something shelldock isle + emrakul shenanigans.

I only shelldock vs miracles / heavy counter decks. If I don't side in SI, I'll leave in some more discard. Otherwise I just go for Labman & AoI if I'm passing the turn. I just found edge of autumn allows for me to use thoughtseize. The life loss is in the discard rather than the Probes for the win.

I would definitely check out https://ddft.wiki/ but I have also been writing my own notes for what to play when. Maybe I'll submit some piles over there in the future. I really do love conjuror's bauble, but I just can't fit it in here unless I take out 2 probe. A common pass the turn for me would be T2 w/petal or T3 normal is (Edge of Autumn, Act on Impulse, LED, LabMan, Edge of Autumn). You can always play Edge of Autumn in response to a Swords to Plowshares or similar removal spell.

[splorf]

To whom it may concern:

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Badlands
2 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Swamp

//Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

//Spells
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
2 Animate Dead
2 Collective Brutality
1 Conflagrate
1 Unburial Rites

//Planeswalkers
1 Liliana of the Veil

//Creatures
1 Children of Korlis
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

//Sideboard
4 Burning Wish
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 By Force
1 Massacre
1 Vindicate
1 Exhume
3 Sneak Attack
1 Pithing Needle
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Liliana is my fun-of, but could easily be a 3rd CB or something else. Nahiri seems odd and expensive, but postboard games tend to be grindy anyway and she gets rid of shid and looks good. This list evolved from an earlier approach of mine (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16184&d=299881&f=LE) to deal with most decks of the meta. Since it features Children and Emrakul, I thought I share it here. Probably someone likes it and want to give it a shot. I really miss Chancellor of the Annex, but Storm wasn't that present recently. It's certainly slower than BR or TinFins, but it also felt very resilient.

[.dk]

I will type up a full report sometime soon, but I went 5-4 at the STG Worcester Open on Saturday. I punted the first and last round. I had the kills, but didn't see it in my hand until it was too late. That's what happens when you haven't played in a big tournament for over a year. I went with a reactive sideboard, and I only used 5 cards all day. So on Sunday, I decided to only play in the first Legacy Challenge due to time constraints with my buddy. I also wanted to just have some fun and burst onions. I should have taken this approach on Saturday because I had so much fun. Everyone stopping to look and cheer for DD is always good fun (except for my opponent). I had a lot of compliments all day, and in only 4 rounds had LM, ToA, & EtW kills in games 2/3. I lost the third round, but I had the kill game 2 after winning the 1st and didn't see the Petal in my hand that I needed. I was pleased with 3-1, and I am going to stick with a DD sideboard. I know Emmy doesn't love LED, but he saved me in several games during the weekend. So after a bit more tweaking and hating the card disadvantage Unmask gives in games 2/3, here's my current list:


// 6 Creature
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// 12 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave

// 21 Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
1 Unburial Rites (Props to Jblinder)
2 Exhume (Props to Jblinder)

// 7 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 14 Land
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

// 15 Sideboard

1 Exhume
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 By Force
4 Doomsday
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Act on Impulse
2 Edge of Autumn


Sideboarding:
-3 Griselbrand, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Exhume, -1 Unburial Rites
+3 Doomsday, +2 Edge of Autumn, +1 Act on Impulse, +1 Laboratory Maniac, +1 Shelldock Isle

Cool list! Love me some Doomsday transformations (obviously). What do you think about a 1/1 split of Conjurer's Bauble and Edge of Autumn? Bauble has some really cool applications in Doomsday piles, and can also "protect" your graveyard from Surgical.

Another thing to think about is since you've cut Unmask, 4 Griselbrand may be less necessary and going to 3 could free up another slot maindeck (maybe for a Bauble? Seems like a cantrip is better than the 4th LED to me)

[MDHackbert]

Since I didn't know of any existing ones, here is a Tin Fins discord i set up: https://discord.gg/3z4NpZ6

[scottpou]

What do you think about a 1/1 split of Conjurer's Bauble and Edge of Autumn? Bauble has some really cool applications in Doomsday piles, and can also "protect" your graveyard from Surgical.
Another thing to think about is since you've cut Unmask, 4 Griselbrand may be less necessary and going to 3 could free up another slot maindeck (maybe for a Bauble? Seems like a cantrip is better than the 4th LED to me)

1) As I've said before, I LOVE Bauble. I actually used 2 baubles instead of EoA on that Sunday in Worcester, and I truly enjoyed baubling the doomsday to the bottom of the deck in response to a Surgical which I knew he had from Probe. I ended up just keeping a faithless in the pile to make up for the extra card needed to draw. However, I ran into 1 instance where I had to wait a turn to go off because of the 1 mana to cast the Bauble. Hence my tinkering and coming back to EoA as the two slot for finishing the piles. I have been cutting 2 probe for 2 bauble maindeck with negligible impact, but I really enjoy the 4 probe main for game 1. I prefer knowing what my opponent is playing ASAP.

2) I wanted to go back to the good ol' days with 2/3 Gbae's so I tried it. I did not like it and promptly returned to 4. When he is the crux of the biscuit for the whole deck, I want to see him as much as possible. Especially with the nontargeting reanimations + LED and fewer cantrips as Br vs Bu.

3) I have played storm enough to love 4 LEDs. However, I really don't think any more than 3 are necessary in this style. I have been goldfishing 2 LEDs instead of 3 to get a bauble maindeck. I still prefer 3, but it sure is tempting.

P.S. I have to say thank you again to Jblinder because I don't know how many times since the change that I have Burning + LED into Exhume. It's so nice to have that out without a reanimate in hand. Plus with Silent Gravestone's mild use of play, I don't have to worry about it 91% of the time.

[scottpou]

Also, I added a Gemstone Mine to the lands for DD just in case piles. If I'm going past turn 3, I'm doing something wrong.

// 14 Land
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Gemstone Mine

[Jblinder]

1) As I've said before, I LOVE Bauble. I actually used 2 baubles instead of EoA on that Sunday in Worcester, and I truly enjoyed baubling the doomsday to the bottom of the deck in response to a Surgical which I knew he had from Probe. I ended up just keeping a faithless in the pile to make up for the extra card needed to draw. However, I ran into 1 instance where I had to wait a turn to go off because of the 1 mana to cast the Bauble. Hence my tinkering and coming back to EoA as the two slot for finishing the piles. I have been cutting 2 probe for 2 bauble maindeck with negligible impact, but I really enjoy the 4 probe main for game 1. I prefer knowing what my opponent is playing ASAP.

2) I wanted to go back to the good ol' days with 2/3 Gbae's so I tried it. I did not like it and promptly returned to 4. When he is the crux of the biscuit for the whole deck, I want to see him as much as possible. Especially with the nontargeting reanimations + LED and fewer cantrips as Br vs Bu.

3) I have played storm enough to love 4 LEDs. However, I really don't think any more than 3 are necessary in this style. I have been goldfishing 2 LEDs instead of 3 to get a bauble maindeck. I still prefer 3, but it sure is tempting.

P.S. I have to say thank you again to Jblinder because I don't know how many times since the change that I have Burning + LED into Exhume. It's so nice to have that out without a reanimate in hand. Plus with Silent Gravestone's mild use of play, I don't have to worry about it 91% of the time.

You’re quite welcome and thanks for the shout out! Glad it’s been working for you.

[.dk]

1) As I've said before, I LOVE Bauble. I actually used 2 baubles instead of EoA on that Sunday in Worcester, and I truly enjoyed baubling the doomsday to the bottom of the deck in response to a Surgical which I knew he had from Probe. I ended up just keeping a faithless in the pile to make up for the extra card needed to draw. However, I ran into 1 instance where I had to wait a turn to go off because of the 1 mana to cast the Bauble. Hence my tinkering and coming back to EoA as the two slot for finishing the piles. I have been cutting 2 probe for 2 bauble maindeck with negligible impact, but I really enjoy the 4 probe main for game 1. I prefer knowing what my opponent is playing ASAP.

2) I wanted to go back to the good ol' days with 2/3 Gbae's so I tried it. I did not like it and promptly returned to 4. When he is the crux of the biscuit for the whole deck, I want to see him as much as possible. Especially with the nontargeting reanimations + LED and fewer cantrips as Br vs Bu.

3) I have played storm enough to love 4 LEDs. However, I really don't think any more than 3 are necessary in this style. I have been goldfishing 2 LEDs instead of 3 to get a bauble maindeck. I still prefer 3, but it sure is tempting.

P.S. I have to say thank you again to Jblinder because I don't know how many times since the change that I have Burning + LED into Exhume. It's so nice to have that out without a reanimate in hand. Plus with Silent Gravestone's mild use of play, I don't have to worry about it 91% of the time.

Yeah, I don't think I would cut Probe for Bauble. That card is way too good. But, I could see going to 3 Griselbrand for 1 Bauble. You're probably right though, that going down to less makes faithless looting (which is your only search in this deck) a whole lot worse, and you can't bin Griselbrand consistently enough. Out of curiosity, since you're running burning wish, have you considered Buried Alive? Or Past in Flames to be able to flash back entombs that have been countered?

[scottpou]

Out of curiosity, since you're running burning wish, have you considered Buried Alive? Or Past in Flames to be able to flash back entombs that have been countered?
I have tried both. Past worked better than buried alive. However, the sideboard slots are tight. I came to the conclusion that if I'm trying to BW into buried and still combo, those resources are better off going for EtW to kill and/or buy time. In other tests, I took out an exhume for PiF in the main. I still have that on the list to keep testing as I really liked it.

[.dk]

I have tried both. Past worked better than buried alive. However, the sideboard slots are tight. I came to the conclusion that if I'm trying to BW into buried and still combo, those resources are better off going for EtW to kill and/or buy time. In other tests, I took out an exhume for PiF in the main. I still have that on the list to keep testing as I really liked it.

Yeah, that's similar to what we did in Bizarro Stormy. I think if you're playing LED's, it makes a lot of sense to have a PIF as an Entomb target. It's a 7 mana storm line, just like Infernal Tutor -> PIF out of ANT.

/edit: didn't finish my thought process... I agree on Buried Alive, was just curious about your experience. I've been continually unimpressed with it - although I liked it better when testing Mastermind's Acquisition with a bunch of black rituals than I did with Burning Wish. Still never great though. Think I'd prefer Intuition in the main to make cool PIF piles :)

[scottpou]

If I was on blue, I would definitely be trying to fit Intuition in.

[.dk]

If I was on blue, I would definitely be trying to fit Intuition in.

riiiiight i keep forgetting you guys aren't in blue. whoops, my bad

[hovercraft]

You’re quite welcome and thanks for the shout out! Glad it’s been working for you.

Went 4-0 with your list last night at our local Legacy night. Thanks again for the deck, it's super fun to play and has some crazy lines. I played the 4 Living Wish, 4 Thoughtseize version. Only lost 1 game all night, and was able to win a few games despite some misplays on my part.

If anyone is interested in a mini Wish-Fins report:

Round 1 vs Pox:
2-0

G1: He has a T1 Liliana, but I am able to get Griselbrand out on T2 with shallow Grave anyway. I whiff on my draws so I can't go Lab Maniac route, but I am able to get a Marit Laige and a Hexmage out to get around Liliana (I should have just sent Grisel at Liliana, but I thought I wouldn't get the 7 life, first misplay)

G2: A bit grindier, with a lot of discard from both sides. Eventually I'm attacking with a hexmage and a Children, but am able to draw a Dark Depths to finish it off faster.


Round 2 vs Mono Red Prison
2-0

Don't remember these games as clearly, but my opponent mulliganed a lot and had bad draws. I am able to discard some of his hate pieces and clear the way for Marit Laige each game.

Round 3 vs OmniSneak
2-1

G1: My opening hand is Petal, Petal, Stage, Depths, Urborg and something else. I know I am playing against blue but I decide to jam out the T1 Depths and Hexmage anyway, with Stage as a backup for FoW. He brainstorms for a FoW but can't find it.

G2: I mulligan to 6, start off with a thoughtseize to slow him down. I get a Grisel in the yard but he Spell pierces both my attempts to Shallow Grave him on 2 different turns. He gets Emakrul and wins.

G3: I mull to 6 and keep a clunky hand with some discard. I am able to slow him a bit, but he gets a Show and Tell off on T2 or T3. Luckily I had Griselbrand in my hand, so we both lay Griselbrands. On my turn we each draw 14 cards, I start with a dark ritual into thoughtseize. See he has 2 FoW, so I take 1. I then cast Children which he FoWs. But I am then able to Shallow Grave him instead and go off for Lab Maniac kill.

Round 4 vs Maverick

G1:
My opening hand is LED, Swamp, Entomb, Entomb, Entomb, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize. I know I'm not against blue so I go for it, Entomb for both an Unburial Rites and a Griselbrand and get him out T1. On my T2 I Lab Maniac for the win. (I did make another misplay here, I cast Shallow Grave to get my Children back a 2nd time, but I forgot I had discarded a Hexmage on top of it. Luckily I had enough mana to then cast Exhume for the Children instead).

G2: We both start off with some thoughtseizes. He takes my shallow grave, and surgicals it in response to my thoughtseize. I am left with a living wish and no green source. I eventually draw a Stage and then a petal. Wish for Dark Depths and make Marit Laige that turn. He effectively had me at 2 life so I just barely survived.

6 of my 8 wins were Marit Laige (1 after a Griselbrand), 2 were Lab Maniac.

[Kyle]

Obviously it's impossible to tell what the future may bring, but since so many people are dropping Goryo's Vengeance these days, does it make sense for someone to unload (sell) them at this current juncture in history? Thanks to Modern they are $45+ each.

Current strategies are pointing to non-targeting reanimation spells like Shallow Grave, Exhume and exhume, and sometimes Reanimator and/or Animate Dead for redundancy.

Is Goryo's Vengeance "dead?"

[Jblinder]

Went 4-0 with your list last night at our local Legacy night. Thanks again for the deck, it's super fun to play and has some crazy lines. I played the 4 Living Wish, 4 Thoughtseize version. Only lost 1 game all night, and was able to win a few games despite some misplays on my part.

If anyone is interested in a mini Wish-Fins report:

Round 1 vs Pox:
2-0

G1: He has a T1 Liliana, but I am able to get Griselbrand out on T2 with shallow Grave anyway. I whiff on my draws so I can't go Lab Maniac route, but I am able to get a Marit Laige and a Hexmage out to get around Liliana (I should have just sent Grisel at Liliana, but I thought I wouldn't get the 7 life, first misplay)

G2: A bit grindier, with a lot of discard from both sides. Eventually I'm attacking with a hexmage and a Children, but am able to draw a Dark Depths to finish it off faster.


Round 2 vs Mono Red Prison
2-0

Don't remember these games as clearly, but my opponent mulliganed a lot and had bad draws. I am able to discard some of his hate pieces and clear the way for Marit Laige each game.

Round 3 vs OmniSneak
2-1

G1: My opening hand is Petal, Petal, Stage, Depths, Urborg and something else. I know I am playing against blue but I decide to jam out the T1 Depths and Hexmage anyway, with Stage as a backup for FoW. He brainstorms for a FoW but can't find it.

G2: I mulligan to 6, start off with a thoughtseize to slow him down. I get a Grisel in the yard but he Spell pierces both my attempts to Shallow Grave him on 2 different turns. He gets Emakrul and wins.

G3: I mull to 6 and keep a clunky hand with some discard. I am able to slow him a bit, but he gets a Show and Tell off on T2 or T3. Luckily I had Griselbrand in my hand, so we both lay Griselbrands. On my turn we each draw 14 cards, I start with a dark ritual into thoughtseize. See he has 2 FoW, so I take 1. I then cast Children which he FoWs. But I am then able to Shallow Grave him instead and go off for Lab Maniac kill.

Round 4 vs Maverick

G1:
My opening hand is LED, Swamp, Entomb, Entomb, Entomb, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize. I know I'm not against blue so I go for it, Entomb for both an Unburial Rites and a Griselbrand and get him out T1. On my T2 I Lab Maniac for the win. (I did make another misplay here, I cast Shallow Grave to get my Children back a 2nd time, but I forgot I had discarded a Hexmage on top of it. Luckily I had enough mana to then cast Exhume for the Children instead).

G2: We both start off with some thoughtseizes. He takes my shallow grave, and surgicals it in response to my thoughtseize. I am left with a living wish and no green source. I eventually draw a Stage and then a petal. Wish for Dark Depths and make Marit Laige that turn. He effectively had me at 2 life so I just barely survived.

6 of my 8 wins were Marit Laige (1 after a Griselbrand), 2 were Lab Maniac.

Great stuff! Interesting that 6/8 games were Marit Lage. In my experience about 2/3 of games are griselbrand based (maybe 80-85% of those ending in labman). In fact, I was considering testing going down to just one hexmage and replacing the other 2 with collective brutality. This would leave the natural depths plus stage draws in tact, and the rare but occasional entomb for hexmage (or of course drawing the one copy). Brutality is a card I’ve wanted to squeeze in for awhile, and I haven’t been loving the Marit Lage plan as more than a backup. But maybe I’ve just been running cold with that half. Hexmage is probably too important to cut.

[Jblinder]

Obviously it's impossible to tell what the future may bring, but since so many people are dropping Goryo's Vengeance these days, does it make sense for someone to unload (sell) them at this current juncture in history? Thanks to Modern they are $45+ each.

Current strategies are pointing to non-targeting reanimation spells like Shallow Grave, Exhume and exhume, and sometimes Reanimator and/or Animate Dead for redundancy.

Is Goryo's Vengeance "dead?"


With the printing of silent gravestone and the raw power that led provides, I couldn’t see myself running goryos versions of tin fins in the foreseeable future.

Seems like that appears to be nearing the consensus opinion given recent lists from others.

[hovercraft]

Great stuff! Interesting that 6/8 games were Marit Lage. In my experience about 2/3 of games are griselbrand based (maybe 80-85% of those ending in labman). In fact, I was considering testing going down to just one hexmage and replacing the other 2 with collective brutality. This would leave the natural depths plus stage draws in tact, and the rare but occasional entomb for hexmage (or of course drawing the one copy). Brutality is a card I’ve wanted to squeeze in for awhile, and I haven’t been loving the Marit Lage plan as more than a backup. But maybe I’ve just been running cold with that half. Hexmage is probably too important to cut.

Yeah I found it a bit strange how much Marit Laige was my main win con too. In your old non green fins version, and with goldfishing I found Griselbrand is much more common too. A lot of the marit laige routes were after people used discard or counters against me to stop/take away my reanimation combos so that's one factor. I also didn't play against DnT or Miracles. Maverick was the only STP/Karakas deck I played against and he didn't have either card during the 2 games. 3 of my 4 matches were on stream if you are curious: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/251153585 Match 1, 3 and 4. Forgive my misplays and the general chatter, we have a pretty casual legacy group.

I love Collective Brutality as well, but space is definitely tight. I do think you could maybe trim 1 Hexmage(or Stage) and potentially 1/4 Living Wish to test some CBs. I actually ran 18 lands not 19(cut 1 fetch) on Monday too, with the extra card being Unmask #2. This might have helped me draw gas, but I did still mull a lot. I do like how Hexmage can be pitched to Unmask and can sometime just be a planeswalker removal spell.

[NedB37]

As someone still trying to cobble together all the pieces i need for the deck, is there a reason why Corpse Dance doesnt seem (more?) play? Other than the CMC, is there a reason this is strictly worse than say, Goryo's? Just looking for some insight.

If i was to play it (own two copies) then would the build need to change?

Referring to the non-LED lists that are slightly older.

[scottpou]

Is Goryo's Vengeance "dead?"
I don't think it's dead, but I don't know if it's optimal in this meta. There are just too many instances where you can get screwed from the targeting requirement. *cough* DRS *cough*


is there a reason why Corpse Dance doesn't seem (more?) play? ... If i was to play it (own two copies) then would the build need to change?
Corpse Dance is awesome, but you can't go Dark Ritual, Entomb, Corpse Dance turn 1. You would need either another Ritual or a Lotus Petal. If you build the mono black list (which doesn't run LED) with Magus of the Will and Cabal Ritual's, I would totally run 2/3 Dances. Otherwise I would just stick with goryo's / exhume / reanimate.

[Acclimation]

As someone still trying to cobble together all the pieces i need for the deck, is there a reason why Corpse Dance doesnt seem (more?) play? Other than the CMC, is there a reason this is strictly worse than say, Goryo's? Just looking for some insight.

If i was to play it (own two copies) then would the build need to change?

Referring to the non-LED lists that are slightly older.

Want to run Corpse Dance? Only own 2?

Well, I have the deck for you! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32342-Bizarro-Stormy-(or-How-I-Learned-to-Stop-Worrying-and-Love-Griselbrand)



As far as Goryo's not seeing as much play, 85% of the GY hate played is targeted, and Silent Gravestone has been insane in shutting those down. Since Goryo and Gravestone are a nonbo, people have been playing either the Depths version with Exhume (Tinfinland or Ice Station Zebra) or being extra rad and chaining together Magus of the Mind activations with Bizarro Stormy or running the mono-Black version for some reason.


There is absolutely nothing stopping you from rocking a more traditional Tinfins list with Goryo's. Deck is still good, but the meta is a bit friendlier to the other variants right now, in my opinion, because of Silent Gravestone.

[NedB37]

Sadly i don't own LED either but appreciate the link. Definitely interested but, a long way off..

I have everything for the older style lists but the Goryo's so might try work something out.

LED seems to be the stumbling block to both of the new variants!

[Jblinder]

Yeah I found it a bit strange how much Marit Laige was my main win con too. In your old non green fins version, and with goldfishing I found Griselbrand is much more common too. A lot of the marit laige routes were after people used discard or counters against me to stop/take away my reanimation combos so that's one factor. I also didn't play against DnT or Miracles. Maverick was the only STP/Karakas deck I played against and he didn't have either card during the 2 games. 3 of my 4 matches were on stream if you are curious: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/251153585 Match 1, 3 and 4. Forgive my misplays and the general chatter, we have a pretty casual legacy group.

I love Collective Brutality as well, but space is definitely tight. I do think you could maybe trim 1 Hexmage(or Stage) and potentially 1/4 Living Wish to test some CBs. I actually ran 18 lands not 19(cut 1 fetch) on Monday too, with the extra card being Unmask #2. This might have helped me draw gas, but I did still mull a lot. I do like how Hexmage can be pitched to Unmask and can sometime just be a planeswalker removal spell.


One thing I noticed is the first time you drew with Griselbrand you just drew 14 right away. Always draw 7 at a time. When you draw an LED (especially with 14 more cards to come) abandoning those 7 cards for BBB will go a long way to prevent fizzles. Sometimes you even draw two LEDS in those first 7 and can make black and green for wish. You will almost never fizzle from that spot.

[.dk]

Sadly i don't own LED either but appreciate the link. Definitely interested but, a long way off..

I have everything for the older style lists but the Goryo's so might try work something out.

LED seems to be the stumbling block to both of the new variants!

Try Corpse Dance in the older lists! I've never tested it there, myself, but seems like a reasonable substitute on a budget. As someone else mentioned, you can't make Griselbrand off of a dark ritual alone with Corpse Dance, but it does have some other advantages. It can reanimate Children of Korlis, which Goryo's Vengeance cannot. Maybe buyback is relevant sometime?

[hovercraft]

One thing I noticed is the first time you drew with Griselbrand you just drew 14 right away. Always draw 7 at a time. When you draw an LED (especially with 14 more cards to come) abandoning those 7 cards for BBB will go a long way to prevent fizzles. Sometimes you even draw two LEDS in those first 7 and can make black and green for wish. You will almost never fizzle from that spot.

Cool thanks, I can see the logic there. I generally have just been drawing to 14 right away most games, so I should slow that down. I'm looking forward to getting more reps in with the deck, nothing quite like drawing your whole deck out with Griselbrand.

[Kobra_D]

Want to run Corpse Dance? Only own 2?

Well, I have the deck for you! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32342-Bizarro-Stormy-(or-How-I-Learned-to-Stop-Worrying-and-Love-Griselbrand)



As far as Goryo's not seeing as much play, 85% of the GY hate played is targeted, and Silent Gravestone has been insane in shutting those down. Since Goryo and Gravestone are a nonbo, people have been playing either the Depths version with Exhume (Tinfinland or Ice Station Zebra) or being extra rad and chaining together Magus of the Mind activations with Bizarro Stormy or running the mono-Black version for some reason.


There is absolutely nothing stopping you from rocking a more traditional Tinfins list with Goryo's. Deck is still good, but the meta is a bit friendlier to the other variants right now, in my opinion, because of Silent Gravestone.

For a reanimation package, I cannot recommend enough the shallow grave/exhume/reanimate picks. All the reanimation spells tag all creatures, except for Emrakul, who is the last of my concerns. It also dodges the nonbo with silent gravestone as sideboarding usually goes an even swap of (reanimate:gravestone).

I can confirm that in my local meta which is a lot of fair decks (D&T, Mav., Delver), silent gravestone has been great.

[.dk]

For a reanimation package, I cannot recommend enough the shallow grave/exhume/reanimate picks. All the reanimation spells tag all creatures, except for Emrakul, who is the last of my concerns. It also dodges the nonbo with silent gravestone as sideboarding usually goes an even swap of (reanimate:gravestone).

I can confirm that in my local meta which is a lot of fair decks (D&T, Mav., Delver), silent gravestone has been great.

Sure, in this deck or the BG version I can see that. I don't like Exhume in Bizarro stormy though, as you really really want Magus of the Mind to have haste.

[Kobra_D]

Sure, in this deck or the BG version I can see that. I don't like Exhume in Bizarro stormy though, as you really really want Magus of the Mind to have haste.

I can see that, Bizarro stormy is pushed into the all-in turn it seems. I just always liked exhume because it gave me one more way to stick children. For one reason or another it has been easier to stick children than it has to land a griselbrand. That is probably hugely biased because I simply will remember the times that I start to combo and fizzle way more than the times my combo is disrupted so take it with a huge grain of salt.

[Kyle]

As far as Goryo's not seeing as much play, 85% of the GY hate played is targeted, and Silent Gravestone has been insane in shutting those down. Since Goryo and Gravestone are a nonbo, people have been playing either the Depths version with Exhume (Tinfinland or Ice Station Zebra) or being extra rad and chaining together Magus of the Mind activations with Bizarro Stormy or running the mono-Black version for some reason.


There is absolutely nothing stopping you from rocking a more traditional Tinfins list with Goryo's. Deck is still good, but the meta is a bit friendlier to the other variants right now, in my opinion, because of Silent Gravestone.

It definitely seems like Silent Gravestone obviates the need to run Goryo's Vengeance completely. Neat.

[.dk]

I can see that, Bizarro stormy is pushed into the all-in turn it seems. I just always liked exhume because it gave me one more way to stick children. For one reason or another it has been easier to stick children than it has to land a griselbrand. That is probably hugely biased because I simply will remember the times that I start to combo and fizzle way more than the times my combo is disrupted so take it with a huge grain of salt.

Confirmation Bias can be very real. :) But what you describe is one reason when ran more Reanimates as well in later lists. Think the last time I played the deck, I was on 4 Shallow Grave, 3 Vengeance, 2 Reanimate. Reanimate was also always pretty good with Mentor out of the sideboard too.

[scottpou]

I was on 4 Shallow Grave, 3 Vengeance, 2 Reanimate.

This was my exact config before going Burning Wish / LED / Exhume etc. It's always pleasurable to have them discard a card and take the traditional route of reanimating their creature.

[.dk]

This was my exact config before going Burning Wish / LED / Exhume etc. It's always pleasurable to have them discard a card and take the traditional route of reanimating their creature.

Yeah, I've definitely won more than 1 game by reanimating a tarmogoyf or something.

[scottpou]

Maindeck Changes:
-2 Thoughtseize, -1 Exhume, -1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
+2 Unmask, +1 Act on Impulse, +1 Laboratory Maniac

-1 Bloodstained Mire, -1 Marsh Flats
+1 Bayou, +1 Gemstone Mine

I've gotten stuck a couple times without being able to discard for free so I swapped 2 thoughtseize for 2 unmasks. I really wanted enchantment hate available again as a BW target, and after swapping AoI in for an Exhume, Reverent Silence had it's spot back. I've noticed miracles decreasing in play a bit, and if Emmy is out of the main, Emmy and SI (the anti-miracles package) can conveniently become Baubles in the sideboard. Also while not ideal, this maindeck config can produce a pass the turn pile if graveyard/storm is cut off.

Current list:

CREATURES (6):
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Laboratory Maniac

INSTANTS AND SORCERIES (33):
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
1 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
1 Act on Impulse
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Unmask

OTHER SPELLS (7):
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

LANDS (14)
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs


SIDEBOARD:

WISH TARGETS (8):
1 Exhume
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence
1 Doomsday

DD (7):
3 Doomsday
2 Edge of Autumn
2 Conjurer's Bauble // 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, 1 Shelldock Isle

[Jblinder]

Maindeck Changes:
-2 Thoughtseize, -1 Exhume, -1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
+2 Unmask, +1 Act on Impulse, +1 Laboratory Maniac

-1 Bloodstained Mire, -1 Marsh Flats
+1 Bayou, +1 Gemstone Mine

I've gotten stuck a couple times without being able to discard for free so I swapped 2 thoughtseize for 2 unmasks. I really wanted enchantment hate available again as a BW target, and after swapping AoI in for an Exhume, Reverent Silence had it's spot back. I've noticed miracles decreasing in play a bit, and if Emmy is out of the main, Emmy and SI (the anti-miracles package) can conveniently become Baubles in the sideboard. Also while not ideal, this maindeck config can produce a pass the turn pile if graveyard/storm is cut off.

Current list:

CREATURES (6):
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Laboratory Maniac

INSTANTS AND SORCERIES (33):
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
1 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
1 Act on Impulse
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Unmask

OTHER SPELLS (7):
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

LANDS (14)
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs


SIDEBOARD:

WISH TARGETS (8):
1 Exhume
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence
1 Doomsday

DD (7):
3 Doomsday
2 Edge of Autumn
2 Conjurer's Bauble // 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, 1 Shelldock Isle


I do prefer laboratory maniac in the main over emrakul since it plays nice with LED; I also REALLY love killing people with labman. however, i don’t think either should be in the main. Gaddock Teeg is the only card I can think of where you will be able to draw the entire deck but not be able to burning wish for a lethal tendrils. There may be more situations I can’t think of, but not many, especially pre-board where they can’t surgical your wishes. Those corner cases will certainly cost you fewer games than drawing labman over some sort of business spell will. I think that any fins version using wishes should finsh games from the sideboard—it’s one of the advantages in that you have one fewer dead draw.

Edit: I think I get it now. You need labman on wish for doomsday lines. Probably ignore but I’ll leave this up.

[scottpou]

... I don’t think either should be in the main... any fins version using wishes should finsh games from the sideboard—it’s one of the advantages in that you have one fewer dead draw.

Edit: I think I get it now. You need labman on wish for doomsday lines. Probably ignore but I’ll leave this up.

100% agree. If I was on a reactive, mentor, or depths sideboard, I would not have Labman in. He's just required for a pass the turn DD pile if you can't storm out.

[scottpou]

Also my default sideboarding has been:

-3 Griselbrand, -1 Exhume, -1 Unburial Rites, -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Unmask
+3 Doomsday, +2 Edge of Autumn, +2 Conjurer's Bauble

Obviouslly it can be different. Sometimes I'll leave the Therapy and Unmask in and -2 Probe or -2 Shallow Grave. Often times those decisions are based on the opponent and not their deck. Sometimes, entomb -> griselbrand to pressure them to Surgical/FoW is how you turn your entomb into a discard spell.

[NedB37]

Try Corpse Dance in the older lists! I've never tested it there, myself, but seems like a reasonable substitute on a budget. As someone else mentioned, you can't make Griselbrand off of a dark ritual alone with Corpse Dance, but it does have some other advantages. It can reanimate Children of Korlis, which Goryo's Vengeance cannot. Maybe buyback is relevant sometime?

I have 1x Goryo's on the way for now and will supplement with 2x Corpse Dance, until i can trade for more.

My body is ready!

Although, still not settled on the list to go with...

[scottpou]

So a couple friends and I were going through old cards and removing anything valuable for us to sell/trade for more duals/tabernacle. (Side note: HOW are Spore Frog over $2?! Well we pulled out almost 40 of those. Time to crash the market.) When one friend turns to me and goes: "Hey can you fit 1 of these into TinFins?" He was holding Burnt Offering. I reread the card since I forgot what it was, and yeah I'm now trying 1 of those out. If mid combo, I sac Gris for 8 red and/or black mana and it's enough to always kill via Wish. I took out an LED for now, but I'm thinking I want to go back to 3 LED. Am I crazy to try and fit 1 of these in here?

[NedB37]

So a couple friends and I were going through old cards and removing anything valuable for us to sell/trade for more duals/tabernacle. (Side note: HOW are Spore Frog over $2?! Well we pulled out almost 40 of those. Time to crash the market.) When one friend turns to me and goes: "Hey can you fit 1 of these into TinFins?" He was holding Burnt Offering. I reread the card since I forgot what it was, and yeah I'm now trying 1 of those out. If mid combo, I sac Gris for 8 red and/or black mana and it's enough to always kill via Wish. I took out an LED for now, but I'm thinking I want to go back to 3 LED. Am I crazy to try and fit 1 of these in here?

Purely from a flavour perspective; i love it.

Sacrificing children to a burnt offering? Perfect. You could argue Sacrifice does the same job in non-R lists?

Also, on Sporefrog, see both Meren and now Muldrotha in EDH. It's amazing in recursive graveyard decks. The foil is something crazy like $40.

[scottpou]

Purely from a flavour perspective; i love it. Sacrificing children to a burnt offering? Perfect. You could argue Sacrifice does the same job in non-R lists?
It is a dead card until mid-combo, but boy has it been nice. I'm wondering if it's just overkill and win-more though. On the shallow grave combos it's overkill because storm count only needs to be 7 to Tendrils for 14 with the attack phase. However, on the exhume hands burnt has really been helping when mana gets tight to get the necessary spells off. I'm on the fence and will continue testing.


The foil is something crazy like $40.
Yeah we have 4 foil too. More USea's coming in hot! I still think its insanity.

[.dk]

So a couple friends and I were going through old cards and removing anything valuable for us to sell/trade for more duals/tabernacle. (Side note: HOW are Spore Frog over $2?! Well we pulled out almost 40 of those. Time to crash the market.) When one friend turns to me and goes: "Hey can you fit 1 of these into TinFins?" He was holding Burnt Offering. I reread the card since I forgot what it was, and yeah I'm now trying 1 of those out. If mid combo, I sac Gris for 8 red and/or black mana and it's enough to always kill via Wish. I took out an LED for now, but I'm thinking I want to go back to 3 LED. Am I crazy to try and fit 1 of these in here?

Funny, that card is cool. Richard Cheese and I tested that around 2012 or so. It's... almost good. I found the biggest bottleneck when comboing with Tin Fins is usually initial mana sources, not getting a critical mass of mana. The biggest issue with it is that it doesn't help any of the decks weaknesses, and reinforces it's strengths. It's a sweet card though :)

[structuremole]

Gotta get that Zombie spirit guide eventually...

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[scottpou]

Gotta get that Zombie spirit guide eventually

As I'm laying in bed reading this ... why can't we just use Simian Spirit Guide and a manamorphose in a BR build?

[Kobra_D]

As I'm laying in bed reading this ... why can't we just use Simian Spirit Guide and a manamorphose in a BR build?

As far as manamorphose goes, it by itself does not add a whole lot of value. It can fix mana sure, but I've never found myself being color screwed by the deck. Mana screwed, sure, it's a greedy 75 typically, but color fixing is already fine. Sometimes people will argue things like manamorphose put you at a 56 card deck, which is true, but when evaluating mulligans it can easily be misleading. It is a random card already and could blur the line away from an obvious keep/mulligan.

Simian Spirit Guide, I have played in the past, and has been fantastic. I have only moved away from it to play a little more disruption, 4 chancellors/8 discard spells. But SSG isn't wrong necessarily. It really pushes things towards the belcher speed of things.

[scottpou]

Having a SSG or two would ease any confusion on what to sacrifice your LED for preactivation on Gris. Burnt Offering was definitely win more, I preferred the 3rd LED over it.

[scottpou]

Played a bit this week and got to discuss with some friends. Trying to minimize dead draws in game 1. The Labman line has been win more in main.

// Creature (5)
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis

// Instant (12)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave

// Sorcery (22)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
2 Gitaxian Probe

// Artifact (7)
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// Land (14)
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills



// Sideboard (15)

// Sorcery (12):
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Exhume
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Act on Impulse
SB: 4 Doomsday

// Creature (2)
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Laboratory Maniac

// Land (1)
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle

[Jblinder]

Played a bit this week and got to discuss with some friends. Trying to minimize dead draws in game 1. The Labman line has been win more in main.

// Creature (5)
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis

// Instant (12)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave

// Sorcery (22)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
2 Gitaxian Probe

// Artifact (7)
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// Land (14)
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills



// Sideboard (15)

// Sorcery (12):
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Exhume
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Act on Impulse
SB: 4 Doomsday

// Creature (2)
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Laboratory Maniac

// Land (1)
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle

I like this list the most of all that you’ve posted. I think maxing on non-sb exhumes is important. You want to be as combo-dense as possible. Land base seems strange to me but it might be important for the sb plan?

How have you been liking the 4 cabal therapy? I think a 2-2 split with thoughtseize would perform better. Drawing one of each and being able to lead on ts is usually going to be better than 2 therapy, and ts is less awkward post board where missing on a ct (with a much more varied set of problem cards to name) can be game-losing.

Like the unmasks; like the brutalities. Something about a 2-2-2-2 split on all the discard spells appeals to my ocd senses.

[scottpou]

Land base seems strange to me but it might be important for the sb plan?

Against certain opponents and hate, I have gone T1 Burning Wish, LED, Doomsday so I have no hand on purpose because of their deck. Pile is usually Shelldock, Emmy, Gemstone, Dark Ritual, Doomsday. Turn 2 Shelldock into Emmy (deck at 3). Turn 3 Gemstone, Tap (2 counters) play Emmy. Take additional Turn 4, pick up Dark Ritual, tap Gemstone Mine (counters to 1 and let it mana burn) swing with Emmy (opponent is only on Turn 3) to usually wipe the board. My turn 5, pick up last card DD, tap gemstone for B, no counters into graveyard, Ritual, DD to put gemstone, ritual, doomsday pack into library and swing with Emmy as much as you like. It's a loop. This is not a good default pile! I'm just saying I have used that line before and having the 1 GM enables it while not really hurting the normal plan.


How have you been liking the 4 cabal therapy? I think a 2-2 split with thoughtseize would perform better. Drawing one of each and being able to lead on ts is usually going to be better than 2 therapy, and ts is less awkward post board where missing on a ct (with a much more varied set of problem cards to name) can be game-losing.

Like the unmasks; like the brutalities. Something about a 2-2-2-2 split on all the discard spells appeals to my ocd senses.

I have been debating the 2/2 TS, CT split for a couple of days. If I was going to a tournament, I would probably be doing this. However when just playing with friends and knowing their decklists, 4 Therapy is very nice.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

However when just playing with friends and knowing their decklists, 4 Therapy is very nice.

I call BS. You can't play this deck AND have friends. I tried.

[Waveboy124]

Woah, what a transition within the last 2 years. When I left legacy, I topped with Mentor/top and painter/grindstone playing esper fins. I'm digging this new no blue, a lot cheaper to get back into it. Quick answer: why the switch?

I'm going to try the above list next week locals. Excited to try this out! Anything to note or check out? I'll report back as much information as I can next week

[scottpou]

When I left legacy, I topped with Mentor/top and painter/grindstone playing esper fins.
I mean you could just remove 4 Griselbrand, 4 Entomb, 4 Shallow Grave, and 3 Exhume to make the board whatever you want including Monastery Mentor.


Quick answer: why the switch?
I always liked Pomegrant's lists and wanted to play a full Burning Wish sideboard. I also hated getting blood mooned so I decided to go BR instead. Not sure if anyone else is actually playing BR over BU.


I'm going to try the above list next week locals. Excited to try this out! Anything to note or check out? I'll report back as much information as I can next week

Couple things. I love Doomsday, but understand that it is not for everyone and probably suboptimal. So if you run a reactive/normal sideboard, I would consider something like this:

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Burning Wish
4 Faithless Looting
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
2 Gitaxian Probe (Flex spots)

3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

// Reactive Sideboard

4 Silent Gravestone
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Stronghold Gambit

Other Sideboard Options (just off the top of my head):
Magus of the Moon
Blood Moon
Shattering Spree
Stone Rain
Pyroclasm
Anger of the Gods
Cave-In
Dreadbore
Never // Return
Cruel Edict
Bontu's Last Reckoning
Rain of Tears
Unmask

9 times out of 10 crack your LEDs for BBB before another Griselbrand activation. Leave your petals to crack for the R that you'll need mid-combo. If you remove the 2 Probes, I would add 1-2 of Thoughtseize, Therapy, CoBr, Unmask, Night's Whisper, Gamble, Tormenting Voice and/or Cathartic Reunion per your preference and meta. Silent Gravestone works great and is the whole point of running Shallow Grave and Exhume. We can still play through it (like bizarro stormy). Do not be afraid to make 10+ gobs 1st turn if it's there, especially against grixis. This is a similar play to TES and is why I'm running more than 1 warrens in the board. Stronghold Gambit is in the board for Lands, so flex that spot if you don't play against Lands. The bayou's are only in there for Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence. However, those 4 slots in the board could easily be other things. So if you take those 4 out of the board, you can just do 3 Badlands and 3 Swamps. I just really like having the Burning Wish, Reverent Silence, cast for free line of play for enchantments like RIP and LotV. You could also remove 1 Bayou to add 1 Scrubland and leave yourself white options! Hope this helps, and I would love to hear how you perform. Good luck!

[Jblinder]

I mean you could just remove 4 Griselbrand, 4 Entomb, 4 Shallow Grave, and 3 Exhume to make the board whatever you want including Monastery Mentor.



// Reactive Sideboard

4 Silent Gravestone
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Stronghold Gambit[/CARDS]

Other Sideboard Options (just off the top of my head):
Magus of the Moon
Blood Moon
Shattering Spree
Stone Rain
Pyroclasm
Anger of the Gods
Cave-In
Dreadbore
Never // Return
Cruel Edict
Bontu's Last Reckoning
Rain of Tears
Unmask

9 times out of 10 crack your LEDs for BBB before another Griselbrand activation. Leave your petals to crack for the R that you'll need mid-combo. If you remove the 2 Probes, I would add 1-2 of Thoughtseize, Therapy, CoBr, Unmask, Night's Whisper, Gamble, Tormenting Voice and/or Cathartic Reunion per your preference and meta. Silent Gravestone works great and is the whole point of running Shallow Grave and Exhume. We can still play through it (like bizarro stormy). Do not be afraid to make 10+ gobs 1st turn if it's there, especially against grixis. This is a similar play to TES and is why I'm running more than 1 warrens in the board. Stronghold Gambit is in the board for Lands, so flex that spot if you don't play against Lands. The bayou's are only in there for Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence. However, those 4 slots in the board could easily be other things. So if you take those 4 out of the board, you can just do 3 Badlands and 3 Swamps. I just really like having the Burning Wish, Reverent Silence, cast for free line of play for enchantments like RIP and LotV. You could also remove 1 Bayou to add 1 Scrubland and leave yourself white options! Hope this helps, and I would love to hear how you perform. Good luck!

If you are playing the reactive SB in Burning Fins (and therefore have more space for Wish targets) I would recommend a Reanimate (in addition to Exhume, which is usually better) and a Collective Brutality. Reanimate can be good in situations where you have no Ritual and can only afford the one mana off Burning Wish or to blow out opposing Reanimator decks. It can also be good in spots where the opponent has a Leovold or something in the graveyard that makes Exhume problematic. Collective Brutality is a Wishable discard outlet for Griselbrand and so much more.

Deathmark is the most efficient Wish answer to DRS, Thalia, Canonist and more, but isn't necessary. Just another option.

I'd also consider one Ancient Grudge over one of the Abrupt Decays. It's a beating vs the Chalice decks and is Entombable.

[scottpou]

Played with a friend tonight against several decks. Ran maindeck 2 cathartic reunion for probes and a sideboard of:

4 Silent Gravestone
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Collective Brutality
1 Reanimate

Not sold on the Ancient Grudge, but otherwise it worked well.

[alastair]

#28
I’d not played the deck in a while, made misplays, got lucky on occasion, and should have taken different lines at various points. The GP was very diverse (ok, a fair volume of reliable family hatchbacks, but Thalia’s, Burn, various Stompy, SnT, GSZ, loads of Lands, Storm, Aluren, NicFit.... the usual field); felt health despite the DRS numbers.

CFB were efficient.
The judges better than I’ve experienced before.
Artists amazing.
The venue/NEC was as shit as ever.

3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Child

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo’s
2 Reanimate

3 TS
3 Therapy
2 Brutality

4 Ponder
4 BS
4 Probe

4 Petal
4 Ritual
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Delta
2 Strand
1 Marsh Flats

SB
1 Tundra
1 Plains
4 Mentor
2 Bob
1 Serenity
1 Defence Grid
2 Faire
1 Chain
1 Echoing Truth
1 Massacre

I didn’t keep a note of what I side-boarded. For U-base decks (Delver, Pile, etc) I’d typically keep 1 Griselbrand and 1 Emrakul, cutting 7-9 cards, bringing in: 2 lands, 4 Mentor & 1-3 Bob/Bounce. On occasion I’d cut 10-11 cards if I wanted Mentor + Bob + bounce (+ Serenity for DnT).

Rnd 1 Kai
Czech Pile
Wreaked both games, tight player with the right cards in the right order. SB into Mentor.
0-2 (0-1)

Rnd 2 Francisco
RB Reanimator
G1 I have a read on combo (looks a little familiar), open the disruption hand, cantrip into the cards I need.
G2 I get my hand stripped, we both stop each other with Therapy / Surgical / Faerie etc... Reanimate Faire and start beating down, finding TS Emrakul for the win 3-4 turns later.
2-0 (1-1)

Rnd 3 David
TES
G1 I have the disruptive hand whilst his is awkward, only getting worse.
G2 I T1 draw cleanup discard into T2 land + petal. Sometimes you are just fast.
2-0 (2-1)
.... and starting to recall the lines of play.

Rnd 4 Sanutu ??
Sneak and Show
G1 Yes, Show and Tell resolves. We both picked the same permanent.
G2 Probes and Thoughtseize into a rushed Emrakul reset. No permanent and 1-2 cards in hand, scoop. Maybe early, but I’d a few lands and several cantrips.
2-0 (3-1)

Rnd 5 Bevan
DnT
G1 Beatdown, into a slow cantrip win via Brutality discard/Thalia.
G2.... 3 mentors... 3 StP. Sad.
G3. A slow game cantriping and discarding to stem the bleed. Mentor gets there.
2-1 (4-1)

Rnd 6 Eduardo
DnT
G1 Non lethal board wipe and scoop.
G2 Many turns of managing the blood loss with chumping and trading Monks. 3-4 cantrips into a Massacre on his 5-7 creature board closed this.
2-0 (5-1)

Rnd 7 Tommaso
Mono R
I’m 99% sure this will be Mono R having been crushed at the Axion event, and with little idea how to win.
G1 Locked and wreaked, Chalice, Bridge, Chandra...but he only see’s Delta, Sea and cantrips... and 9 times out of 10 I’m on Team America / Delver which is what he sides into.
G2 Chain, Serenity, and Echoing. I animate fairly early, but brick forcing an attack to D7, get lucky drawing the Child, and play it out drawing the deck over, at plus +48 life getting the scoop.
G3 The Monk Plan. T1 or 2 Rablemaster, chump a token with Bob at some point early to enable Shallow Grave Bob block Rabblemaster next turn. Buys me a turn to make Mentor, trade off and get there. 3 mana Ponder with no draw is absolutely fair with Mentor and 1-2 Monks in play.
2-1 (6-1)

Rnd 8 Mikael
Honda Civic
G1 Make Griselbrand on 1 life. One D7 found Child, knife-edge to get there.
G2 Miss-played my Sea into Wastelands allowing DRS to become relevant.
G3 Disruption into actual reanimate.
2-1 (7-1)

Rnd 9 Claudio
Miracles
G1 He swords but I’ve drawn and draw again.
G2 Monks get there, I don’t believe he knew they were coming. Claudio was really good, lines I didn’t see to try and stay in it. Bit lucky.
2-0 (8-1)

Rnd 10 Sebastian
Czech Pile
G1 The long way round, gamble on the Hymn maybe right or wrong.
G2 RTFC !
G3 I had the land to pay :-(
.... bit tilted on camera.
1-1-1 (8-1-1)

Rnd 11 Francis
Miracles
The match I didn’t want. Really good player, practiced against TinFins, knows my plans. It’s still hard to combat both angles and I get there in G3
2-1 (9-1-1)

Rnd 12 Johan
Affinity
Deck check, warning, visible sleeve sides to a few random cards. Judge re-checks and approves.
G1 Steam rolled, Emrakul leaves him 2 threats which he wins with.
G2 Johan spots (rightly so) identifiable sleeves, judge (same judge)...... SB cards which we did not re-check (not the judges fault).... game loss, really pissed off.
0-2 (9-2-1)

Rnd 13 Richard
Honda Civic
G1 A lot of pressure, a torturous combo at low life.
G2 He keeps 2x Probe, Surgical, Force, Fluster, Delver and Pyro. Missed lands on his Probes and draw, Mentor gets there. I think the keep was correct.
2-0 (10-2-1)

Rnd 14 Gullium
Honda Civic
Deck check... Game loss ‘Emrakul’... fucking idiot. Seamed harsh if the judge were in the slightest familiar with Legacy...... but my fault at the end. A fair bit more pissed off now.
G2 T1 Brutality discard, T2 animate.
G3 All the answers / none of the draws, but he limited my options effectively.
1-2 (10-3-1)

Rnd 15 Joao
Czech Pile
G1 They are very soft G1, might have had DRS but without Delver pressure it’s ineffective.
G2 Jace ultimately takes over, edicts, ambush vipers, Leo, and counters / surgical.
G3 I’m tired... I go pre-board combo... nice opening hand.
2-1 (11-3-1)

Chrome Mox would be nice, but with Mentor I think you need the land. I’d change SB Tundra to Scrubland, and whilst I never needs the Plains for Wasteland, I was glad to have it. Massacre is nuts but a luxury against one deck. DRS without Delver is not really a challenge. Brutality is slow, but leads to a lot more T3 slow burn wins.

Lastly... every opponent was on good form, there to enjoy the GP. Massive appreciation to the five or six judges (and coverage team), in the most polite manner, suggesting that I reconsider the placement of my permanents.

[scottpou]

#28 ... (11-3-1)

Congratulations on the finish! How did the mix of 3 CT, 3 TS, 2 CoBr feel?

[alastair]

Congratulations on the finish! How did the mix of 3 CT, 3 TS, 2 CoBr feel?

thanks, good deck choice for the field, but a lot of luck also.

I can’t find a perfect mix, but was happy with 8 + 4 GP. If I was more familiar with the current meta I’d be on 4 CT and 2 TS. Brutality is slow but the interaction with Escalate is priceless and led to more strategic play over T2 into T3/4, not dissimilar to ANT’s approach as opposed to TES. The +2 life on Brutality on occasion drew me 7 cards; the -2 dealing with aggressive creatures, and the two primary problems of DRS and Thalia.

[NedB37]

Great work, well done! I was sadly working or would have been there myself. Maybe next time..

[Acclimation]

@alastair Great showing! Good to see the stock Tinfins list do work!

[.dk]

Wow, great finish! Sucks about the sleeves and the deck reg. :( Way to represent our lord and savior! Love me some Mentor and Bob in this deck... :D

[Zavec]

New to the deck, been playing around with a few builds. My goal is mostly to get as many turn ones as I can, a) because it's flashy and b) because that minimizes the time for my opponents to play hate.

This is the list I'm working on:

1 Children of Korliss
4 Griselbrand

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites

4 Entomb
4 Ponder
2 Brainstorm
3 Burning Wish

2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Unmask

2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

//SB:
1 Meltdown
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Burning Wish
1 Exhume
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Reverent Silence
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Collective Brutality

The one thing that's still bothering me is that I'd like to fit gitaxian probe and maybe the last two brainstorms in, but I'm not sure where to make room for them.

Either way, will probably be taking something close to this to the CFB grand re-opening this weekend.

[scottpou]

My goal is mostly to get as many turn ones as I can
I do agree if you're going for more acceleration 12 land, 2 chrome mox is the more aggressive route. Play LED, Land, Chome Mox/Petal, Exhume / Shallow, LED CRACK is a sexy line of play. For speed you only need 6 discards and not 8. So there is 2 slots opened. When I was running 3/4 Unmask, I ran into pitching problems some matches. Especially with the increased artifact and red for BW. Just something to be considering. Faithless or Careful Study would work better than ponder because you can search and discard same time for only R or U. Faithless just has flashback. Could turn the 2 open and 2 brainstorm into 4 probe for pure gas. I'm only testing the 4th LED with 1 Past in Flames in the 60 again.

[Acclimation]

New to the deck, been playing around with a few builds. My goal is mostly to get as many turn ones as I can, a) because it's flashy and b) because that minimizes the time for my opponents to play hate.

This is the list I'm working on:

1 Children of Korlis
4 Griselbrand

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites

4 Entomb
4 Ponder
2 Brainstorm
3 Burning Wish

2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Unmask

2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

//SB:
1 Meltdown
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Burning Wish
1 Exhume
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Reverent Silence
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Collective Brutality

The one thing that's still bothering me is that I'd like to fit gitaxian probe and maybe the last two brainstorms in, but I'm not sure where to make room for them.

Either way, will probably be taking something close to this to the CFB grand re-opening this weekend.

Had to do some digging, but the list in this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-Deck-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=991519&viewfull=1#post991519) from a little over a year ago was one of the most consistent t1-2 lists we've created in the last few years. Going back a bit further, .dk and I found that Chrome Mox was negligible in ensuring kills, as the fizzle rate was similar (like decimal places differences) between 1 Mox and 0 mox. 2 Mox was definitely overkill, since the card disadvantage was a bit rough, especially with Unmask. If I were to play Tin Fins right now, I'd take this list, cut the Chrome Mox for a Lim-Dul's Vault (really good at ensuring t3 kills), and do 3 Unmask, 4 Cabal Therapy.

1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Brutality
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
1 Reanimate
3 Unmask

1 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp

As a personal preference, I don't like Exhume in these lists, because I really like winning the turn I get Griselbrand on the field, but that's 100% personal preference. I know people have been having success with Burning Wish builds, and they're still pretty quick, so definitely jam the list and report back. And check out our thread in New & Developing (Bizarro Stormy) if you want more Griselbrand action, it's a similar shell that's a lot better at achieving t1 kills, albeit with a bit lower rate.

[scottpou]

As a personal preference, I don't like Exhume in these lists...

The non-targetting with Silent Gravestone just like Bizarro is just very strong, plus some matchups I don't mind a slow grissle beat down. The 1B vs 2B on exhume vs corpse dance sometimes makes a difference even if it is 7 less cards.

[alastair]

My goal is mostly to get as many turn ones as I can, a) because it's flashy and b) because that minimizes the time for my opponents to play hate.

I’ve found 4x Careful Study with 4x Reanimate to be the fastest UB build (12 land + 2 Mox, 10 Reanimate, 6 discard). Unfortunately there is a real cost; a less reliable same turn kill when you often don’t have the land drop, or life loss to Reanimate, or Combat Step life gain. I play TinFin (Shallow + Goryo's) as I don’t want to offer the untap.

RB is just better if you want to make a permanent threat and kill in 2-3 turns. If you want flashy Turn 1.... play SI, deck is just a lovely little puzzle.

Either way, have fun.

[Acclimation]

The non-targetting with Silent Gravestone just like Bizarro is just very strong, plus some matchups I don't mind a slow grissle beat down. The 1B vs 2B on exhume vs corpse dance sometimes makes a difference even if it is 7 less cards.

Good point. I played Exhume a little over a year ago, and didn't care for it, since I'm the type of person that wants to win as soon as that Griselbrand hits the field. Silent Gravestone definitely changes the game up a bit.

[scottpou]

I'm the type of person that wants to win as soon as that Griselbrand hits the field

I agree 100% because that is my opinion as well! I need to start recording all my matches and uploading (same as the bizarro and DDFT google doc). I have been fizzling less and less with every version even with Exhume.

[Zavec]

Silent gravestone was what I was thinking of for the most part, goryo's also doesn't hit children of korlis.

On the other hand, exhume has the problem that your opponent gets to reanimate something too. So if something happens like you used a massacre to kill mom+thalia, they get their thalia back and you need to kill it again.

If I see any HP ones online I'll probably pick them up, just so I have the option one way or another.

[.dk]

Exhume isn't the worst - although that card might actually want to push back towards Chrome Mox. Since you won't be able to draw as many cards, you'll have a harder time finding an IMS when combo-ing out to be able to make Emrakul or Kids. Probably just need to gather data on draw 14's, and what THOSE fizzle rates are with 0, 1, and 2 Chrome Mox, similar to what Acclimation and I did a couple of years ago.

[Jblinder]

Exhume isn't the worst - although that card might actually want to push back towards Chrome Mox. Since you won't be able to draw as many cards, you'll have a harder time finding an IMS when combo-ing out to be able to make Emrakul or Kids. Probably just need to gather data on draw 14's, and what THOSE fizzle rates are with 0, 1, and 2 Chrome Mox, similar to what Acclimation and I did a couple of years ago.



Exhume lists typically run LED. Most seem to be running 3 which I view as a mistake. Card is busted. It also happens to solve the IMS problem nicely.

I think if you’re not running LED then goryos is the better spell, and I don’t know if access to silent gravestone alone is enough to change that. It might be. I still think exhume is begging you to play LED though.

In my Living wish depth fins list if I go petal land exhume, crack LED floating BBB I almost never fizzle on the full combo. The BBB in the pool is actually as valuable as a draw 7 since you’re no longer bottlenecked on having to draw a Petal. It doesn’t hurt that in addition to entomb children/shallow grave (OR exhume) I can also do things like petal, living wish for children of korlis thoughtseize myself Exhume. Or petal, led, living wish crack LED For www cast children.

Turn 1 dark ritual/entomb/exhume with no led does fizzle a fair amount. As a consolation prize your griselbrand sticks around. When they have thalia or Leo in the graveyard it can be awkward as well. There are obviously trade offs. But I think Silent gravestone is well worth it, and I think the raw power of LED is also a boon and adds to turn 1 wins. Think about how many more turn 1s are in the deck.

Normal fins has dark ritual/entomb/shallow grave or goryo, dark ritual/self discard griselbrand with ct or ts, or occasionally unmask with ritual or petal.

Led builds still have all those turn 1s, but also ritual or petal + exhume/shallow + led + griselbrand, or ritual/petal + griselbrand/unburial + Led + entomb. Or ritual + double entomb + Led (assuming you run 1 unburial which I also think is a mistake not to in Led builds) . My build even has nonsense like petal, land, led, dark ritual, living wish for griselbrand, exhume sac led. Or petal+ritual+double led+living wish to hardcast gris from the sideboard. Most of those are one card requirement or more tougher than the classic ritual/entomb/reanimate but they really do add up! And those lines add up even more for turn 2 wins.

[.dk]

Exhume lists typically run LED. Most seem to be running 3 which I view as a mistake. Card is busted. It also happens to solve the IMS problem nicely.

I think if you’re not running LED then goryos is the better spell, and I don’t know if access to silent gravestone alone is enough to change that. It might be. I still think exhume is begging you to play LED though.

In my Living wish depth fins list if I go petal land exhume, crack LED floating BBB I almost never fizzle on the full combo. The BBB in the pool is actually as valuable as a draw 7 since you’re no longer bottlenecked on having to draw a Petal. It doesn’t hurt that in addition to entomb children/shallow grave (OR exhume) I can also do things like petal, living wish for children of korlis thoughtseize myself Exhume. Or petal, led, living wish crack LED For www cast children.

Turn 1 dark ritual/entomb/exhume with no led does fizzle a fair amount. As a consolation prize your griselbrand sticks around. When they have thalia or Leo in the graveyard it can be awkward as well. There are obviously trade offs. But I think Silent gravestone is well worth it, and I think the raw power of LED is also a boon and adds to turn 1 wins. Think about how many more turn 1s are in the deck.

Normal fins has dark ritual/entomb/shallow grave or goryo, dark ritual/self discard griselbrand with ct or ts, or occasionally unmask with ritual or petal.

Led builds still have all those turn 1s, but also ritual or petal + exhume/shallow + led + griselbrand, or ritual/petal + griselbrand/unburial + Led + entomb. Or ritual + double entomb + Led (assuming you run 1 unburial which I also think is a mistake not to in Led builds) . My build even has nonsense like petal, land, led, dark ritual, living wish for griselbrand, exhume sac led. Or petal+ritual+double led+living wish to hardcast gris from the sideboard. Most of those are one card requirement or more tougher than the classic ritual/entomb/reanimate but they really do add up! And those lines add up even more for turn 2 wins.

Yeah, that's a fair point. If you're running Exhume, LED should 100% be included. And if you're running Wishes of any sort, then it needs to be a 4 of. Your reasoning is solid and I agree. If Silent Gravestone is good and you're playing this deck, then you probably want Exhume over Goryo's. Or you want to be playing Corpse Dance and Magus of the Mind... ;)

[scottpou]

And if you're running Wishes of any sort, then it needs to be a 4 of.

I'm still trying to figure out 3 or 4. I want the 4, but finding that slot is difficult.

[Jblinder]

I'm still trying to figure out 3 or 4. I want the 4, but finding that slot is difficult.

For your deck we have discussed these two configurations:

4 cabal therapy
2 collective brutality
2 unmask
2 probe

And

2 cabal therapy
2 thoughtseize
2 collective brutality
2 unmask
2 probe


I’d probably play:

3 thoughtseize
1 cabal therapy
2 collective brutality
2 unmask
1 probe
(4th led)

Cutting the second probe makes some sense to me, as it is a card with diminishing returns (paying 2 life to cycle when you know their hand already sucks) and makes mulligan decisions tougher. Play one and it’s an occasional nice luxury—“cool, i get to see what’s up this game”—but doesn’t become a liability that having 2 in your opener often will be, even if it’s rare.

Cutting a probe makes the therapy a tiny bit worse and frees up another slot for a life loss card in thoughtseize.

I’ve written about it long ago somewhere but I think good legacy players tend to overrate cabal therapy.
It’s a card that definitely rewards format knowledge and recognition of “what matters” in a matchup. It feels insanely good to name the right card and hit—not to mention hitting multiples! It’s a card that gets us high.

But is it the best card for the job?

The argument usually goes something like “name the card that beats you; if they have it, you win and if they don’t have it you win.” The problem with the oversimplification, especially post board is that there are a variety of cards that actually beat you in many situations, and when we are trying to combo as early as turn one or two we don’t have a lot of room to deduce which of these they have. Another problem with the oversimplification is that, well, it’s an oversimplification. Sometimes you thoughtseize and the best card in their hand is a ponder. You’re in great shape even with a therapy whiffing in that spot, but that ponder absolutely matters. That card could decide the game (not to mention when it’s a more impactful card like a thoughtseize of their own).

4 probes and a slightly slower plan like you see in ANT? Sign me up for some CT.

I don’t think non-blue versions of Fins want to be probe decks (1, 2 max is fine). brainstorm + ponder versions it’s better as our the quality of our hand is less dependent on what we immediately see since we dig so much deeper. Even in those decks space is often too tight to fit the full four. And without the “training wheels” I don’t think therapy is better than thoughtseize even for skilled players with high format knowledge.

Whew. Trying to find a cut for an LED in your list just got me raving about cabal therapy again. Lol. I also realized just now that probes might be more necessary in the Doomsday plan. I always forget that you’re transforming and don’t have enough doomsday knowledge to appreciate some of those nuances. If it’s necessary, ignore, but my rant stands!

Side note on LED since I’m obviously very high on it: I do think shaving them post board vs blue decks is usually right. When Gravestone comes in for blue matchups, for instance, my default cuts are -2 LED -1 unburial rites. But pre board when it’s just force of will to contend with and not FOW + surgical I think the raw power of LED is just awesome, and raw power is kind of what Tin Fins is about.

[scottpou]

I’d probably play: 3 thoughtseize 1 cabal therapy
The more I test this (I was actually on this the past couple of days), the more I think this is the correct decision. I have even entombed a therapy to flashback in a match. Plus leaving 1 in the main for DD piles is helpful.


... Sometimes you thoughtseize and the best card in their hand is a ponder. You’re in great shape even with a therapy whiffing in that spot, but that ponder absolutely matters. That card could decide the game...
I agree 100% and was a reason I ran 0 Cabal Therapy at the SCG Worcester Open.


I don’t think non-blue versions of Fins want to be probe decks
Again, I agree with you completely.


... without the “training wheels” I don’t think therapy is better than thoughtseize even for skilled players with high format knowledge.
Preach brotha, preach!


probes might be more necessary in the Doomsday plan. I always forget that you’re transforming and don’t have enough doomsday knowledge to appreciate some of those nuances. If it’s necessary, ignore, but my rant stands!
Unfortunately they are necessary for a couple lines of play/protection with DD. However, that does not diminish the validity of your rant!


... I think the raw power of LED is just awesome, and raw power is kind of what Tin Fins is about.
I also think LED's raw https://goo.gl/1mfMWw is what TinFins is about.


My current Burning DoomFins (Reactive)

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Burning Wish
4 Faithless Looting
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
2 Gitaxian Probe (2 Night's Whisper or 1 (Pick 2) Collective Brutality/Gamble/Thoughtseize)

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Gemstone Mine (Badlands)
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs


// DD Sideboard (Reactive)

4 Doomsday (Silent Gravestone)
1 Act on Impulse (Stronghold Gambit)
1 Laboratory Maniac (Reanimate)
1 Shelldock Isle (Flex)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (Flex)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 Collective Brutality
1 Massacre
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence

I keep both DD and Reactive options sleeved for play and decide on which based on mood, quantity and quality of competitors, and sobriety.

And remember! https://goo.gl/k9iD4N

[.dk]

The more I test this (I was actually on this the past couple of days), the more I think this is the correct decision. I have even entombed a therapy to flashback in a match. Plus leaving 1 in the main for DD piles is helpful.


I agree 100% and was a reason I ran 0 Cabal Therapy at the SCG Worcester Open.


Again, I agree with you completely.


Preach brotha, preach!


Unfortunately they are necessary for a couple lines of play/protection with DD. However, that does not diminish the validity of your rant!


I also think LED's raw https://goo.gl/1mfMWw is what TinFins is about.


My current Burning DoomFins (Reactive)

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Burning Wish
4 Faithless Looting
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
2 Gitaxian Probe (2 Night's Whisper or 1 (Pick 2) Collective Brutality/Gamble/Thoughtseize)

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Gemstone Mine (Badlands)
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs


// DD Sideboard (Reactive)

4 Doomsday (Silent Gravestone)
1 Act on Impulse (Stronghold Gambit)
1 Laboratory Maniac (Reanimate)
1 Shelldock Isle (Flex)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (Flex)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 Collective Brutality
1 Massacre
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence

I keep both DD and Reactive options sleeved for play and decide on which based on mood, quantity and quality of competitors, and sobriety.

And remember! https://goo.gl/k9iD4N

I really like the idea of Night's Whisper in your list. Without the blue cantrip suite, it's probably the next best thing, and will help you against discard people will tend to bring in against you. I could also see 1 Night's Whisper and the 3rd Unmask in that 2-of slot as well.

Another crazy option if it's just a 1 of... Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain? You're running Children of Korlis already, and is a great draw spell into Doomsday piles too.

[scottpou]

I could also see 1 Night's Whisper and the 3rd Unmask in that 2-of slot as well. Another crazy option if it's just a 1 of... Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain?

I'm gonna test 3rd Unmask and 1 Infernal Contact/Cruel Bargain vs 2 Night's Whispers. I really, really like the idea of 1 IC/CB, but those 2 cantrips on not 1 mana usually do good work. *cough* chalice *cough*. I'm playing with my buddy tonight, will test, and report later.

[scottpou]

To continue my thoughts after viewing the awesome sister thread of Bizzaro, what about 1 Past in Flames and 1 IC/CB to add to the fun?

[scottpou]

Tested some games this week. The 4th LED and Past in Flames were win more even seperately. I still want the 4th LED though. So, I'm going to test -1 Unmask +1 LED this week and see how it goes. At times I was at 1 CT, 4 TS, and 3 Unmask, but I missed having the interaction with Collective Brutality especially with mulligans on the draw. I still want to test Cruel Bargain and Infernal Contract more, but they did not pan out this week. Burning wish into artifact and/or creature removal game 1 has been so relieving. I hate Thorn of Amethyst in Eldrazi's main.

Current Burning DoomFins (Reactive):

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Burning Wish
4 Faithless Looting
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
2 Gitaxian Probe (2 Night's Whisper)

3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Gemstone Mine (Badlands)
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs


// DD Sideboard (Reactive)

4 Doomsday (Silent Gravestone)
1 Act on Impulse (Reanimate)
1 Laboratory Maniac (Empty the Warrens)
1 Shelldock Isle (Chainer's Edict)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (Toxic Deluge)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Massacre
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence

[scottpou]

Had a few beverages and stayed up way later than I should have last night. Ran into a game where I wasn't able to storm out, but it wasn't due to mana. So I swapped 1 Burning Wish and 1 Lab Man in the main/sideboard DD build. I am enjoying the other out in gold fishing this morning.

[militiaman89]

Does anyone has a sideboard guide for the living wish version? Im newer to the deck and am unsure how to properly board with it. Any help would be appreciated.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Jblinder]

Does anyone has a sideboard guide for the living wish version? Im newer to the deck and am unsure how to properly board with it. Any help would be appreciated.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I actually have a full primer written up on Living Fins. It’s still a work in progress but it’s almost done.

In section 2 I lay out most of the possible sideboard choices, along with my current sideboard. Section 4 is the matchup guide, with sideboarding plans.

Here is a link:

https://bit.ly/2sFbHAF

[.dk]

Wow, nice write up!

[Acclimation]

I actually have a full primer written up on Living Fins. It’s still a work in progress but it’s almost done.

In section 2 I lay out most of the possible sideboard choices, along with my current sideboard. Section 4 is the matchup guide, with sideboarding plans.

Here is a link:

https://bit.ly/2sFbHAF

Very nice! People have been asking for something like this, so it helps to have something to point to.

[Richard Cheese]

I actually have a full primer written up on Living Fins. It’s still a work in progress but it’s almost done.

In section 2 I lay out most of the possible sideboard choices, along with my current sideboard. Section 4 is the matchup guide, with sideboarding plans.

Here is a link:

https://bit.ly/2sFbHAF

Nice. The decklist is a little hard to read in paragraph format but otherwise seems super thorough.

FWIW we've been calling this version Ice Station Zebra after S03E11 "Frozen Dinner", for obvious reasons.

[Jblinder]

Nice. The decklist is a little hard to read in paragraph format but otherwise seems super thorough.

FWIW we've been calling this version Ice Station Zebra after S03E11 "Frozen Dinner", for obvious reasons.

Is the decklist itself hard to read? I have it in list form at the top of section 1, then paragraph form only for the potential changes to the deck.

I like Ice Station Zebra. I’ll change it now that the Tin Fins forum and the great Richard Cheese has annointed the name.

[Richard Cheese]

Is the decklist itself hard to read? I have it in list form at the top of section 1, then paragraph form only for the potential changes to the deck.

I like Ice Station Zebra. I’ll change it now that the Tin Fins forum and the great Richard Cheese has annointed the name.

Weird, when I opened it it was all paragraph format for the decklist. Maybe just something with my browser.

[scottpou]

I still love Doomsday, but I've been playing this list for more than a week with a lot of success. Lab Man main really makes some lines easier. It's similar to how Ice Station Zebra (ISZ) will Living Wish for the Maniac. A key thing to remember (as previously stated by others) is to stop after each griselbrand activation and consider cracking LEDS.

// Creature (6)
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Laboratory Maniac

// Instant (12)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave

// Sorcery (20)
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish

// Artifact (8)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// Land (14)
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Silent Gravestone
SB: 1 Exhume
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens (I want more than 1, but 3 takes up too many spots)
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Stronghold Gambit
SB: 4 Meta Dependent

... I stayed up way too late again tonight with beverages and cockatrice...

Sideboard with Silent Gravestone has usually been, -1 Unburial Rites and then if playing against Combo -2 Collective Brutality, if fair/creatures -2 Unmask, and if counters -2 LED as a very rough guide.

[militiaman89]

I still love Doomsday, but I've been playing this list for more than a week with a lot of success. Lab Man main really makes some lines easier. It's similar to how Ice Station Zebra (ISZ) will Living Wish for the Maniac. A key thing to remember (as previously stated by others) is to stop after each griselbrand activation and consider cracking LEDS.

// Creature (6)
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Laboratory Maniac

// Instant (12)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave

// Sorcery (20)
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish

// Artifact (8)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// Land (14)
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Silent Gravestone
SB: 1 Exhume
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens (I want more than 1, but 3 takes up too many spots)
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Stronghold Gambit
SB: 4 Meta Dependent

... I stayed up way too late again tonight with beverages and cockatrice...

Sideboard with Silent Gravestone has usually been, -1 Unburial Rites and then if playing against Combo -2 Collective Brutality, if fair/creatures -2 Unmask, and if counters -2 LED as a very rough guide.


Wouldn't you want a scrubland to be able to cast your children and unburial rites? Im interested in trying this version out as I really loved the living wish version but wanted something more combo oriented.

[scottpou]

Wouldn't you want a scrubland to be able to cast your children and unburial rites? Im interested in trying this version out as I really loved the living wish version but wanted something more combo oriented.

I have thought about this several times, including in this week's games. However, I have rarely needed a land to cast either of these. The first LED gets BBB (Entomb + Shallow/Exhume for Children). Or you can activate GBees, sac another LED for WWW if needed or just a Petal for W to cast Children out of hand. I have been wastelanded twice in more than one match, and I really like having the 3 badlands over the 2 for that reason. I also believe strongly in the 2 basics over 1. I have just setup MTGO and am building up my tix so continue accumulating TinFins. I hope to be posting vids and results soon.

[militiaman89]

I have thought about this several times, including in this week's games. However, I have rarely needed a land to cast either of these. The first LED gets BBB (Entomb + Shallow/Exhume for Children). Or you can activate GBees, sac another LED for WWW if needed or just a Petal for W to cast Children out of hand. I have been wastelanded twice in more than one match, and I really like having the 3 badlands over the 2 for that reason. I also believe strongly in the 2 basics over 1. I have just setup MTGO and am building up my tix so continue accumulating TinFins. I hope to be posting vids and results soon.

That would be great. I would like to see this version in action. Do we have a discord for this deck archetype?

[MDHackbert]

Nice. The decklist is a little hard to read in paragraph format but otherwise seems super thorough.

FWIW we've been calling this version Ice Station Zebra after S03E11 "Frozen Dinner", for obvious reasons.

I thought it was a reference to the pitch pilot where there are 2 scientists stranded out at Ice Station Zebra?

[Acclimation]

I thought it was a reference to the pitch pilot where there are 2 scientists stranded out at Ice Station Zebra?

The episode he refers to goes deeper into Ice Station Zebra and the scientists (still) stranded there.

[scottpou]

Going to a shop tomorrow night that I heard plays some legacy on Tuesdays. I've never been there for Legacy, but I figure its worth checking out. I'm probably going to go with the reactive board. I'm back up to 4 Silent Gravestones after more testing.

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Laboratory Maniac

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
4 Silent Gravestone

1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dreadbore

[scottpou]

You know what. Screw it! This is my first time at this shop. I'm going to play Doom. What better way to introduce myself to a new player group? You only get one chance for a first impression. Also, it's been that kind of day at work where I just want to maximize fun and not win percentage. I will be taking notes to post later.

Changes are:
//MAIN (3)
-2 Collective Brutality / +2 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Badlands / +1 Gemstone Mine

//SIDE (7)
-4 Silent Gravestone / +4 Doomsday
-1 Innocent Blood / +1 Act on Impulse
-1 Dreadbore / +1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
-1 Toxic Deluge / +1 Shelldock Isle

[scottpou]

If anyone is from the shop and I wrote something wrong or misspell anyone's name please let me know! This was a friendly, non-sanctioned, proxy allowed tournament for store credit as prize with an entry fee of $5. Tonight's recap of Burning Doom Fins:

Round 1 vs DD&T (Dillon):
He called the deck DD&T. Turns out he's trimmed D&T and added hexmages, dark depths, and thespian's stage. It was a very interesting brew, and I would like to see the full decklist sometime.

Game 1: I lose the roll and he goes basic Plains pass. I go badlands, faithless, pitch land and grisel, lotus petal, ritual, shallow grave. I then start storm counting by activating griselbrand. I forgot to use my 1 mana to entomb to grab a children, atttack, THEN start storming. I realize this, children to gain some life, THEN forget to attack, but announced second main because we were chit chatting. I want to be stickler to myself so I remember even though he kindly offers to allow the attack, but I deny. So I unmask myself to pitch a gris and exhume it. All legendary rule to go into affect and pass the turn. I win a turn later, but I started tonight off with a royal F*&$ up. (WIN)

Game 2: I have a decent DD hand with some protection so I keep. He goes, cavern naming humans, pithing needle griselbrand. I go land and pass. He goes land, rest in peace, pass. My second turn I decide I'm going to do DD and make a pass the turn pile because I figure that's most of his hate and the reason he kept the hand. He has to read Doomsday as he's never seen someone actually play it. I went with a Shelldock, Emmy, Gemstone, Labman, Probe pile because I figure 2 outs are better than 1. He play Rish Port and Mother of Ruins before passing is back to me. Oh great I'm thinking. I land the Shelldock and he has to read it. I pass it back to him, and he taps out and plays Gideon of the Trials, goes 0 and makes an emblem. I have NEVER seen this emblem played before and am worried. I get to my turn, play gemstone, cast Emmy. Take my second turn, cast Labman and attack with Emmy. He only has 6 permanents so they all go. I didn't realize the emblem needed the gideon to stay in play to be affective, but I win anyway. Afterword we were talking, and he had containment priest, but chose the RiP over it. I don't think it mattered, but it could have. (WIN)

(1-0) (2-0)


Round 2 vs Bu Reanimator (Oliver):

Game 1: I win the dice roll! I go turn 1, faithless, ditch grisel, petal, ritual, shallow grave, led sac after 1st activation, entomb children, go for the labman kill, and he scoops. (WIN)

Game 2: I figure he's on some sort of U deck. He acknowledges every action with "sure" and is actually paying attention to triggers and stack. So I have money on flusterstorms. I side out -2 Grisel, -2 LED, -1 Unburial Rites, -1 Exhume and bring in the 6 DD package. I have a good first turn doomsday hand with an entomb backup so I keep. He goes polluted, pass. I go fetch, badlands, lotus petal (for daze), dark ritual with land, doomsday. He fluster storms the DD. He plays another land and pass. Next turn I draw a Shallow so I play a land and petal and try to jam it. He surgicals the griselbrand after the entomb. He passes his turn with a land drop. Then I Unmask him on my turn taking his only creature, griselbrand, because he had Show and Tell and I had BWin hand. He gets to his turn and does Show and tell. I show the Children in, and he shows Iona in naming black. I take two hits from Iona, sac Children after the 2nd hit, and then on my turn go, petal, petal, LED, Burning Wish. He brainstorms and is able to find a Force of Will to counter it before I Empty to race him. GG (LOSS)

Game 3: I mull to 6 and see a possible turn 1 with a backup plan, good enough! Turn 1 I thoughtseize him, see a daze, brain storm, and entomb. I take away entomb. Second turn, I go into Dark Ritual, Entomb, Shallowv with an extra Nana available. He FoWs the Shallow after brainstorming. After landing my third land drop, I go for DD straight up and get countered again by fluster. He then reanimates a Griselbrand on his turn after using careful study and beats me down with no activations. I go for a life-gain Tendrils or an aggro Empty the Warrens two turns later with petal, led, dark ritual, and burning wish only to get countered again. Oliver drew a lot of hate and did blindly (he informed me after), but it was still a well fought match that definitely flicked a switch in my competitive MtG mind. I really enjoyed this match and can't wait for a rematch! (LOSS)

(1-1, 3-2)


Round 3 vs Elves (John):

Game 1: I lose the roll, and he mentions that he knows what I'm on. He's relatively new to legacy, but he is trying to make this HIS legacy deck. I don't have a great hand (2x griselbrand), but I had therapy, umask, and etomb. I'll take it good enough (WRONG). He goes forest, wirewood symbiote, so I know he's on elves. I go fetch, swamp, therapy naming elvish visionary, and I HIT! I also see a hand of lands and 2x natural order as well. I pass back, he plays another forest and DRS, awesome. We pass back and forth for at least 3 turns if not more, and I decide to trigger both my fetches on his end step because I'm holding 3x griselbrand and 1x entomb. I also have a Dark Ritual in hand and 4 lands in play. I couldn't find a land or anything useful in 3 more turns to cast a grisel the easy nor hard way. He finally Natural Orders into a crater hoof when I was at 11 for 12 damage. It is probably minor, but I should have never cracked the fetches. He didn't have the mana via DRS without me cracking. (LOSS)

Game 2: Even though I'm on the play, he knows what I'm on and is looking at a lot of sideboard cards. I decide to shuffle in the DD Package and have some fun. I have not a great hand, but John is super nice and we were talking about Elves a lot during side boarding. In my play group, we have a collaborative Elves deck, and I am the Elves player. So, I understand his deck a lot, and he was surprised. I admitted to him that I don't care about winning tonight, I just want to have fun. So with that, I pick up my cards and say F-it, looks good! I keep and go turn 1, land, Dark Ritual, Doomsday. I make another Shelldock, Emmy, Gemstone, Labman, Probe, pass the turn pile. He looks through my deck very meticulous and is perplexed when he sees 4 LEDS still in the now exiled deck. He plays a land and passes. I then play shelldock with emmy and pass. He then plays sorcerous spyglass and names Shelldock. I take my turn, cast faithless to pick up the remaining lab man and probe, ditch 2 cards. play gemstone, tap all 3 lands for mana, cast labman, and -2 life for probe, and onto game #3. (WIN)

Game 3: He looks at his hand and says, guess I have to keep it. I look down and it's bad. I mulligan to 6 and see land, petal, led, Burning wish. I remind him that I'm here to have a good time and fun because my work week has sucked so far, and I keep. He goes turn one bayou, nettle. I go land, petal, led, BW, crack LED, cast DD. We're here to go for it tonight! I start making a double pass the turn Act on Impulse pile, but I get scared off and take out the Emmy & Lab man pile instead. (SPOILER ALERT: I should of AoI). I make my pile and eventually lose to an army hit off glimpse and he blind draws the Craterhoof he needed in order to win and beat me by a turn. I would have won if I had AoI piled instead of Emmy & LabManiac. However, I was here to have fun and John is a really good guy, and I wanted to have some interaction and redundancy against his board. (LOSS)

p.s. John If you're reading this, I wasn't joking and my play group has elves built no proxies. So if you want to borrow it next week, let me know and I'll bring it! (PM ME!)

(1-2, 4-4)


Props: The shop (X9 Games), players, and conversations. A blind therapy hitting felt great! Still very glad to have 1, but I really want those 3 thoughtseize to compliment it.

Slops: My rusty ass play and uneasy nerves. I need to mulligan more aggressively for the T1/2. I have to keep reminding myself that you can still win first turn with only 4 cards in hand.

Thoughts: I went 1-2 and made a LOT of mistakes. I haven't played in person since the SCG Worcester Open where I went with friends and was much more relaxed (Beer helps too). I didn't start to calm down until the 3rd game of the 3rd round. However, everyone at the shop was awesome and a genuine human. Once everyone knew what deck I was playing, they all opened up and were very friendly. Turns out my 2nd round opponent, Oliver, used to be a TinFins player and is now on his BU Reanimator. I find it humorous because I did the exact opposite. Playing DD for fun was definitely the correct move tonight! Got a lot of questions and compliments on the build. I had an out against every type of hate I saw, and boy did I see a lot. I think the Silent Gravestone build is better right now, but DD was super enjoyable for a friendly. Honestly, I wouldn't change the main at all for the DD transform. I really, really wanted an Innocent Blood in the sideboard though. So, I will probably swap out an Empty for it. In my opinion, I let the deck down and not the other way around. I misplayed a lot, but I the deck gave me options in every situation. They might not have been the ideal out, but I did have options. I had so much fun tonight, and I am definitely going back next week with Silent! I already warned everyone. As long as I don't end up like Marco at this shop, I'll be happy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8bDtZTIdcM

[Acclimation]

I start making a double pass the turn Act on Impulse pile, but I get scared off and take out the Emmy & Lab man pile instead. (SPOILER ALERT: I should of AoI). I make my pile and eventually lose to an army hit off glimpse and he blind draws the Craterhoof he needed in order to win and beat me by a turn. I would have won if I had AoI piled instead of Emmy & LabManiac.

I think this was one of my biggest gripes with the Shelldock piles, is that they take so long to get going that you risk losing if they have a clock. I had a Doomsday player make a t1 Shelldock pile against me a few weeks ago (when I was on Bizarro) and I was able to use my 2 extra turns before he could swing with Emrakul to draw the redundant reanimation to beat his t1 Tormod's Crypt. I think against decks that have a fast clock, doing this pile is probably a bad choice.

Otherwise, good report. It's always a bit nerve wracking taking a complex deck to a new store, so props to you for enjoying yourself even if you made mistakes.

[jugglervr]

5th in a local 8-man last sunday with Ice Station Zebra.

R1 Grixis Delver 0-2
G1 Kept a t2 marit lage hand and he went probe, wasteland (on urborg) and then a quick gurmag angler.
G2 got 2 silent gravestone ts, hexmage, unmask. TSed a DRS because I wasn't really thinking and kind of wanted to hide the fact that I wasn't afraid of them, but I gave him enough time to drop the angler so that's all on me.

R2 Maverickish (i think lingering souls instead of thalia) 2-0
G1 he drops a DD on 2, I drop one on 2 and hexmage it, gg
G2 I get to combo off sweetly on t2. I looped Children and he asked if I had it. I narrated the line and he picked up.

R3 UB Reanimator 1-2
G1 T1, he concedes to a safety TS in the middle of my combo
G2 I keep a hand with all acceleration and a living wish. I'm pondering whether to HC grisby but then just draw into shallow grave. I play a land but not my petals or ritual, then cry internally when he dazes my living wish. Been too long since I've played against UB.
G3 I kept a slower hand and he got grisby a turn ahead of me, then had a daze for my exhume and a force for my shallow grave.

Sad to not cash but happy the new player (r3 opp) did cash; hopefully he'll come back in the future.

[Kyle]

First.

Not like Shaman was our absolute biggest enemy, but how does our Griselfather fair without his StankProbe?

We benefit from Probe in a major way, and unlike BR Reanimator, we rely on a full opening grip of 7 without reducing it through free information gatherers like Unmask.

To keep the legacy (har) of speedy openers, I feel Cabal Therapy gets stronger, even without Probe. Is Unmask going to become the necessary include?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[alastair]

I’m unsure, part of the reason I’ve been on TinFins is the believe of many that DRS was an effective answer to graveyard strategies. Without several counters, or two active DRS’s, or a fast clock as Delver etc, or plentiful and good SB GY hate, DRS was very weak. I’ve always been on 5-7 GY cards in T1 and fear we might be seeing 3-5 good GY cards in Legacy for a while.

Probe… slows us down but I’m overjoyed to see that card go; even if it is the final nail in DD’s coffin. Easy mode at no cost, terrible design. I’ll be turning to Careful Study initially, and might look again at Chrome Mox to help the speed.

I think these changes will be good overall (but neither was necessary).

[ThomasDowd]

I never really liked probes. I did well with this list years ago. You try to push on discard.

If I still owned cards i'd probably play something similar to these

https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13929&d=282428&f=LE
https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12857&d=274669&f=LE

or dredge

i realize the technology in these is years old so ignore them if you want. i just never liked probe tbh. also no top obviously, and maybe no mentor since no top == bad time. but i haven't touched this deck in years/ don't play anymore

[Acclimation]

Probe's a crutch, I'd start by adding some more discard spells and maybe another cantrip and see how it shakes out. For a more traditional list, this is what I would play tomorrow if I were to hand the deck to someone:


1x Island
4x Marsh Flats
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Tundra
3x Underground Sea

1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Griselbrand

4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
3x Goryo's Vengeance
1x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Shallow Grave

1x Cabal Therapy
1x Collective Brutality
4x Ponder
2x Reanimate
4x Thoughtseize
3x Unmask

1x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal

Sideboard
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Massacre
2x Pithing Needle
2x Serenity
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Swords to Plowshares

[.dk]

Probe's a crutch, I'd start by adding some more discard spells and maybe another cantrip and see how it shakes out.

Could easily go up to 8 discard spells: 4 Unmask, 4 Thoughtseize, and supplement the loss of Probe with 1-2 Lim-Dul's Vault.

Maybe this:

4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis

4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Reanimate
4 Entomb

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Lim Dul's Vault

4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
1 Collective Brutality

[scottpou]

I have a successful tournament report to write up from last week. Also have some ideas after yesterday's banning. However, before going forward I wanted to look back. In the primer, the CORE of the deck is discussed. There is much to update on the primer, but could we discuss this part for now?



Core Cards
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2-4 Griselbrand
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Brainstorm
3-4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
0-2 Lim-dul's Vault

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate

4 Cabal Therapy
0-1 Silence
2-4 Thoughtseize

1-2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra/Island
2-3 Underground Sea


What is actually required at this point in time to draw 7 many times and win on the same turn? When I separate my deck, I keep starting with these 50 slots no matter the version:

// 5 Creatures
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis

// 12 Business
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
4 (Goryo's Vengeance/Reanimate/Exhume/Unburial Rites)

// 6 Discard
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Unmask
1 Thoughtseize/Unmask

// 4 Cantrips

// 8 Acceleration
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

// 14 Lands
8 Fetch Lands
2 Swamp
4 Duals

// 1 Combo
1 Tendrils of Agony (Somewhere in 75)

I think going forward, we will see more Surgical Extraction, Faerie Macabre, Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. If so, Silent Gravestone still holds tremendous value against the first 2 hate options, and Goryo's, Reanimate, & Unburial lose some of their appeal. Exhume and even Corpse Dance seem to be the best options to fill the majority of the reanimate slots. What about Moon decks? Are we expecting those to go on the rise? If so, do we need more basics, or more discard spells, or use red in our manabase?

[alastair]

This is my take on the basic build, but its on the traditional slant. I've not included Collective Brutality as i'm unsure how good it is now, although as an enabler it is still valuable.

BUSINESS
2-4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3-4 Goryo’s Vengence
0-2 Reanimate

6-8 DISCARD
2-4 Cabal Therapy
2-4 Thoughtseize
0-2 Unmask

8-12 CANTRIPS
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
0-2 Preordain
0-2 LDV
0-4 Careful Study

8-9 ACCELLERATION
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
0-2 Chrome Mox

12-14 LANDS
7-8 Fetches
1 Swamp
1 Island

[.dk]

Since Brutality was printed, Tendrils of Agony is not needed. You can go infinite with Brutality just like you would with tendrils, but it does so many more things. The time of Tendrils for this deck is long past.

If you're scared of Leyline and RIP, play Mentor and Bob and tell them to get rekt.

[scottpou]

You can only go infinite if you run the Emmy. LED's don't play nice with Emmy. If you run LED, non targeting comes into play so goryos is out. So if Emmy, goryos, CB, and chrome mox stay together, you can't run silent gravestone in sideboard. Then LED's, exhume, corpse dance, ToA and silent gravestones go together. Where does the soul of TinFins reside? Is the kill via attack with Emmy or combo with CB / ToA? Do we propose that Tins Fins is via attack and Bizzaro is via combo?!

[Acclimation]

To me, I felt like Tinfins ran at it's best as a sort of Sneak Attack-esque deck that utilizes the GY over the actual enchantment- so a deck that wants to ship Griselbrand+Emrakul across the endzone. The back up plan is definitely a more combo-centric one, but I've found that doing the Collective Brutality loop was much better than jamming Tendrils, as Tendrils is 97/100 times a dead card when drawn, whereas CoBru can do things beyond being a kill piece.

That's my feeling with the deck at its core. You can definitely take it on a more combo bent like you have been doing with your Burning Wish builds, and there's nothing wrong with that- it's just a different style with a similar engine.

[scottpou]

I didn't mean it as an attack on anyone's opinion or a defense on my opinion. However, we have a lot of different "versions" running around, TinFins, Bizarro Stormy, Ice Station Zebra, etc, and the bannings I'm just asking where the line is in order to keep the conversations productive and relevant. I'm just trying to initiate the conversation. I'm not arguing all :) In fact, I'm starting to agree with your opinion! I am struggling with Emmy or not in relation to this deck's identity. I didn't want to post any updates/changes here on unless we could identify where it should go. I figured the bannings were a good initiator.

[.dk]

I didn't mean it as an attack on anyone's opinion or a defense on my opinion. However, we have a lot of different "versions" running around, TinFins, Bizarro Stormy, Ice Station Zebra, etc, and the bannings I'm just asking where the line is in order to keep the conversations productive and relevant. I'm just trying to initiate the conversation. I'm not arguing all :) In fact, I'm starting to agree with your opinion! I am struggling with Emmy or not in relation to this deck's identity. I didn't want to post any updates/changes here on unless we could identify where it should go. I figured the bannings were a good initiator.

Old old old builds (Richard Cheese and mine from 2012) didn't have Emrakul - I think they were objectively worse. Emrakul opens up a lot of options, regardless as to whether you're running Goryo's Vengeance. You can still run Emrakul with Corpse Dance if you'd like - Emrakul just necessitates lots of instant speed reanimation. So that's up to you what you choose - Emrakul works just fine with LED + Shallow Grave/Corpse Dance.

As noted in the primer, Emrakul does serve other purposes than just going infinite though. Sometimes wiping your opponent's board is what you want to do. Sometimes it can act as "protection" in the face of Surgical, Crypt, Relic, Nihil Spellbomb by shuffling your graveyard into your library in response. Sometimes it lets you just attack for 22 and kill them. Since I started playing it in 2013, it always seemed worth 1 slot in the maindeck - the cost is very small.

And even if you want to run Burning Wish and Doomsday or whatever, Emrakul is still fine - it lets you Shelldock Isle off of Doomsday at the cost of 1 sideboard slot in Shelldock Isle rather than 2.

And Acclimation nailed it on Brutality - it just completely outclasses Tendrils when we're looping our library infinite times. I think there has literally been 1 game with Tin Fins I've ever played in the last 6 years that Tendrils won where Collective Brutality wouldn't have. And I've never run into a game running Collective Brutality that I lost where I would have won if Tendrils were in the deck.

[Acclimation]

I didn't mean it as an attack on anyone's opinion or a defense on my opinion. However, we have a lot of different "versions" running around, TinFins, Bizarro Stormy, Ice Station Zebra, etc, and the bannings I'm just asking where the line is in order to keep the conversations productive and relevant. I'm just trying to initiate the conversation. I'm not arguing all :) In fact, I'm starting to agree with your opinion! I am struggling with Emmy or not in relation to this deck's identity. I didn't want to post any updates/changes here on unless we could identify where it should go. I figured the bannings were a good initiator.

It's a good conversation, I hope I didn't come off as combative and dismissive! Someone in the discord asked what the difference between the various Tinfins decks (as well as the Reanimator decks), so the idea has been in my head over the last 24 hours.

As mentioned above, the "stock" version of Tinfins, to me, is a Sneak Attack-esque deck using the GY. Jam the dudes across the red zone, with a back-up combo on the off chance you can't get quite get there.

Ice Station Zebra (or Tinfins Depths, for those that are new here) is Turbo Depths that wanted to run Shallow Grave+Griselbrand as a secondary plan (or primary plan) over some of the more durdle-y Depths cards.

Bizarro is the most combo-centric version by far, and wants to operate as a storm deck that uses the grave yard as an engine, enabled by the Tinfins core (Griselbrand+Shallow Grave). It doesn't need to get across the redzone to win as Magus of the Mind is a busted card, but it's certainly easier when it does.

I feel like, at it's core, Tinfins is Shallow Grave+Griselbrand. Traditionally, it's going to utilize Children, Emrakul, and Goryo's Vengeance to get the job done, but you can call a deck a Tinfins deck if the primary interaction is Shallow Grave + Griselbrand.

To me, Emrakul is definitely a core card of the "stock" archetype, as it can randomly win games on its own- the board wipe mode comes into play a lot, and occasionally you get opponents that fetch themselves below 15, and Emrakul can steal the game. The shuffle trigger gives us the back-up plan of Collective Brutality loops, or to generate enough mana by looping the deck enough times to hard cast it and take the extra turn. As .dk said, the quick Entomb for Emrakul in response to Surgical can be a life saver, as well as Corpse Dance+LED playing fine with her if you're wanting to get around the targeting restriction on Goryo.

I feel like versions of the deck running Emrakul and Dark Depths are very similar in plan- get down a big, dumb monster and win.

Bizarro definitely needed its own thread, since it's different enough in play style that the discussion needed to be split.

I think that the bannings are definitely a great topic starter, as I've been updating all my lists and waiting to see how the hate situation plays out.

[scottpou]

I played in a friendly legacy last week.

// Creature (6)
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Laboratory Maniac

// Instant (12)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave

// Sorcery (20)
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
4 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask

// Artifact (8)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// Land (14)
2 Swamp
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard (15)
4 Silent Gravestone
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 By Force
1 Meltdown
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dreadbore

Round 1 - Br Reanimator (Jeff)

Jeff is my friend who I invited to join me at the shop last week. Unfortunately we got paired against each other in the first round. We've had these games at home quite a bit so we knew each other's decks very well. I'm on the draw and mulligan to 6 when he keeps a snap 7. He did something then I go off turn 1 for a Tendrils kill, onto game 2. I side out -2 Burning Wish, -1 Unburial Rites, & -1 Thoughtseize for 4 Silent Gravestone. I have Silent Gravestone and Unmask in my opener with some combo pieces so I keep the 7. He goes first turn Iona naming Black. I am able to play out a Children to prolong my agony and ALMOST pull out a Burning Wish Empty kill. I had 10 tokens hit him once by tapping sideways, but he was able to beat me by 1 turn. Game 3, I swap 1 Silent for the Unburial Rites, just in case. i mull to 6 and proceed to go off and win turn 2. However, I really should have cast my LED during my first turn because I had a griselbrand in hand. Just in case he tried to Exhume on his first turn so I could crack and ditch Gris in response.

(1-0, 2-1)

Round 2 - Mentor Miracles (Mr. P)

First of Mr. P is how he introduced himself, and he was such an informed, humble, and funny guy. I greatly enjoyed playing with him and hope to see him again soon! I'm on the play and we both keep our 7. I turn 1 Thoughtseize to clear the way and go off turn 2 cleanly. Game 2, I side out -1 UB, -1 CB, -2 LED for 4 SG. We both keep out 7. My turn 1 Thoughtseize is met with a Force of Will. I then try to go for it via Shallow Grave and am met with a Flusterstorm. Conveniently, I have an Exhume in my hand for next turn. I attack turn 3 and draw 7, do some discard, then pass the turn. Turn 4, I attack again and go for the kill.

(2-0, 4-1)

Round 3 - Dark Depths & Taxes (Dillon)

This is the same guy and deck I beat the week before. We're both 2-0 and decide to draw and split the store credit. We play for fun, and I'm going for suboptimal, unconventional lines. We go 3 rounds and I barely lose the third game, but I don't care. I didn't take any notes and had a lot of fun joking with Dillon the whole time. However, I did learn something. He played Sanctum Prelate on 2, and cut me off of a LOT of cards and options.

(2-0-1)

Innocent Blood was a neat little addition to the sideboard that I have liked in testing. However, I wasn't able to play it that day. The Prelate/Chalice on 2 scares me a little bit. I need to remember to keep Unburial Rites in if I suspect either card. I want to explore Dark Petition, Infernal Tutor, and Corpse Dance more going forward after the bans. I have been playing a lot the last week and have made a couple changes to my build. I think we will see more Snapcasters, Surgicals, Macabres, and Blood Moons going forward. So I am going to stick with the Silent Gravestone and BR route. I doubt I'm correct, but this is the shot I'm going to take for next week. I will be attending the SCG Worcester Legacy Classic next Sunday with something similar to this:

Main:
-1 Burning Wish / +1 Tendrils of Agony (I enjoy having 2 in the 75 for several reasons)
-1 Collective Brutality / +1 Conflagrate (I really like being able to fetch this with Entomb)

Side:
-1 Meltdown / +1 Burning Wish (By Force has been doing good work, especially if I have artifacts in play)
-1 Dreadbore / +1 Empty the Warrens (I have yet to cast this card, I'd rather have another Empty available)

[Jblinder]

\So that's up to you what you choose - Emrakul works just fine with LED + Shallow Grave/Corpse Dance.



Emrakul does NOT work with LED + Shallow Grave or Corpse Dance. Put Shallow Grave on stack, discard hand to LED, Emrakul shuffles gy back into library, Shallow Grave resolves returning nothing.

Maybe I am misinterpreting and you just mean that despite their negative interaction you can still play both...I'm not saying you can't have them both in the same deck, but LED and Emrakul are a definite nonbo.

[scottpou]

Emrakul does NOT work with LED + Shallow Grave or Corpse Dance.

I stand by what I previously wrote and agree with Jblinder. If you run Emmy and "traditional" Fins, you probably shouldn't run LEDs.

[.dk]

Emrakul does NOT work with LED + Shallow Grave or Corpse Dance. Put Shallow Grave on stack, discard hand to LED, Emrakul shuffles gy back into library, Shallow Grave resolves returning nothing.

Maybe I am misinterpreting and you just mean that despite their negative interaction you can still play both...I'm not saying you can't have them both in the same deck, but LED and Emrakul are a definite nonbo.

Yeah, I think I was just being stupid and forgot that you had to discard any shallow graves in your hand, as you have an empty hand when Emrakul's trigger goes on the stack. Ignore that sentence - you're correct!

[scottpou]

-1 ToA +1 Mastermind's Acquisition in the main is confirmed. I'm testing -1/2/3 Exhume +1/2/3 Corpse Dance. I still think I like Exhume better, but I want to try it. Sideboard still the same. I can't wait for Sunday! My current 75 is below:

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
3 Burning Wish
1 Mastermind's Acquisition
4 Thoughtseize
2 Unmask
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Conflagrate

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

//Sideboard
4 Silent Gravestone
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Burning Wish

[.dk]

How has Mastermind's Acquisition been without running the Cabal Rituals that Bizarro Stormy does?

[scottpou]

How has Mastermind's Acquisition been without running the Cabal Rituals that Bizarro Stormy does?

3 LEDs couldn't support it, but with the full 4, the rare but occasional utility has been useful. Some games I'm going through 3 lotus petals quickly and then can't find the other one, but you have plenty of black via Rituals and LEDs. I haven't noticed a measurable difference between the 1/1 BW swap in game 1. If it's a counter spell matchup where I'm taking out the LEDs, the MA swaps with the BW. Then it's usually down to URites or Conflagarate depending on the matchup. Sometimes both come out and BW will come in along side the MA. I've even been leaving URites in with Silent Gravestones against certain decks where I still want to tutor. I've even blown up my Gravestones to then Rites. If I end up going with Corpse Dances over Exhumes then this will change and some other changes will happen too.

[scottpou]

So I played in the SCG Worcester 1:30 Legacy Challenge today to prep for tomorrow and try some things out. My buddy and I decide not to do the early challenges, take our time, and enjoy ourselves. So after sign ups, lunch, and some beers, we head back over to play some Legacy! My Deck:

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Laboratory Maniac

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave

3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Thoughtseize
2 Unmask
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish

4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta

//Sideboard:
4 Silent Gravestone
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Exhume
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Innocent Blood
2 Empty the Warrens

Round 1: I’m excited to play some Magic! We get to the board and … I have the Bye. Great. I totally came here to watch, whatever. WIN

(1-0)


Round 2: I'm playing against Matt and win the roll. GRIXIS DELVER

Game 1: I had watched him play the match before against my friend so I knew he was on Grixis Delver. So, I let him know that I’m playing TinFins because he was a very friendly guy and didn't want an advantage. I keep my 7, and he mulligans to 6. I have an easy turn 1 with Ritual, Entomb, Exhume, and I get there with a LabMan kill same turn. WIN

Game 2: we both keep our 7. T1 he Thoughtseizes me and takes the entomb. I thought seize him and take his brainstorm leaving him with Diabolic Edict, Toughtsieze, and something else random, He eventually lands a delver and slowly beats me down. I can't find a fatty nor an entomb or Burning Wish. LOSS

Game 3: We both keep 7. I go turn 1 Thoughtseize, he casts Force of Will. His turn 1, he casts Thoughtseize and takes my Entomb. Turn 2 I go Burning Wish, and he Force's it. He has Delver and Grumag Angler out on the battlefield, I cast Children. I sac Children after combat. I’m looking for answers, but cast shallow grave on the end of his turn two turns in a row to gain my life with Children. Eventually, he gets there, but he was impressed that I was able to Time Walk 3 turns in a row to look for answers. Its hard to beat 2x FoW and 1x TS in their opening hand. LOSS

(1-1)


Round 3: I’m playing against Darian King of Kjeldor. Awesome dude with an ever better name. MENTOR MIRACLES

Game 1: I win the roll, Thoughtseize first turn. I select a Brainstorm and he’s still holding a Mentor, Opt, and Swords of Plowshares. He plays a island, then pass. I proceed to go off and kill with LabMan. WIN

Game 2: We both keep 7. He fetches and passes. Turn 1 is Silent Gravestone. Later I learned he kept a double Surgical, double Snapcaster hand. He also sided out every Miracle card he had. He casts Ethersworn Canonist. I faithless to get Griselbrand in the bin. Get attacked by Canonist. My turn, I go double petal pass. He attacks again, and I shallow grave, Grisebrand, block. I kill the Canonist, and then draw 21. My turn, I thoughtseize myself for Conflagrate. RR, Discard 21 cards and Conflagrate! My first ever Conflagrate kill!!! WIN

(2-1)


Round 4: Playing against Jake. We roll weird D&D dice. I’ve never rolled them before but he explains how they score, and I was excited to learn something new! I win the roll after we tie the first time. BR REANIMATOR

Game 1: Turn 1 I thoughtseize and see Petal, Griselbrand, Reanimate, Animate, Thoughtseize. I take the Thoughtseize. He says good pick as he picks up, plays a land, and says go. I draw a BW and have Grisel, Petal, 2 Rituals and another land. I tell everyone around, “Screw it we’re here to have fun!” Cast everything and BW for Stronghold Gambit. I cast the gambit and he just starts laughing. Everyone is having a good time as I proceed to go off and LabMan for the kill decking myself. We both had a Griselbrand in play, that means it was fair right? WIN

Game 2: He keep 7 and I mull to 5 and leave a Thoughtseize on the top of my library. He proceeds to Turn 1 Iona on black, and my whole hand was black. I did a little interaction to buy myself a turn, but I couldn’t get enough red cards to make it matter. LOSS

Game 3: We both keep 7. I go turn 1 Silent Gravestone. He grumbles. We dilly dilly around for a couple turns. It gets to my turn 4, and I say F-it. Literally I announced it. I cast exhume and we both have Griselbrands in the graveyard. He Entombs in response and gets Iona naming black. I activate twice to get a grip. Cast 3 Petals, 2 LEDs and hard cast LabMan since I know I can not grab him out of the yard. I pass back with my life at 4 and his at 18. He attacks with Iona, and I block. Before damage resolves, I crack Silent Gravestone with LED. I draw an LED from the gravestone. My turn (11-18 now) I draw an Unburial Rites. So I cast LED, crack LED, cast URites, target Griselbrand, attack with LabMan (11-16), activated Griselbrand cast a bunch of spell to Tendrils for exactly 16. I was going to just EtW, but then realized I had exactly lethal and went for it. WIN

(3-1)


I haven't used Therapy in a long time, and really want something in case they remove all Griselbrands. I am torn between Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and Sire of Insanity. I took a peak at the sellers' inventory and found a Sire for only $1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFZP8zQ5kzk). So I will see how it goes tomorrow. Also, my friend has convinced me that I haven't used 3 cards in my sideboard. With 3 cards and the amount of Miracles I'm expecting tomorrow, I am able to fit 1 Doomsday, 1 Emrakul, and 1 Shelldock. Miracles hates those cards especially along side Silent Gravestones. Also having an Emmy for Show and Tell / Omni might be worth it. I saw a good amount of those being played in the team constructed open today. So, tomorrow I am going to attempt to run this monstrosity:

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Sire of Insanity

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave

3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Thoughtseize
2 Unmask
1 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish

4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs


//Sideboard:

3 Silent Gravestone
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Exhume
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Innocent Blood
//Because why not?
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle

P.S I did a terrible job on notes today of what I took out for sideboard. I normally take out LEDs when counters/blue is involved, and I know I took out 2 exhume in the BR matchup. I will do a better job tomorrow!

[Jblinder]

After going 4-1, 3-2, 2-3 online with Ice Station Zebra post-DRS-ban, I decided to make the switch to Burning Fins since I think it is currently better-positioned. With DnT on the rise, and no more Czech Pile where the Depths combo shines the most I don't think Marit Lage is super strong right now. More importantly, however, is that Leyline of the Void is on the rise and having access to four copies of Reverent Silence (via Burning Wish) is pretty hot right now.

My very first league I hit a 5-0, losing only one game (to GOBLINS!).

Here is my list and I'll highlight some differences with what scottpou has been up to. I'll highlight each aspect of the deck I think is noteworthy with a *.

4 Griselbrand
1 Grave Titan*
1 Children of Korlis
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
2 Reanimate*
1 Unburial Rites
4 Unmask*
4 Thoughtseize*
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
2 Faithless Looting*
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 By Force
1 Massacre
1 Reverent Silence
1 Collective Brutality
1 Reanimate
1 Exhume
1 Gamble*
1 Ancient Grudge*
1 Silent Gravestone*
3 Faerie Macabre*
It appears I may have accidentally had a 14 card SB for the event...I threw it together pretty quickly. There should be a stronghold gambit in here but I didn’t have one in my collection.


Grave Titan: He never came up in this league. He is mainly a concession to the fact that this deck is a little less combo-dense than Ice Station Zebra (you don't have Depths + Stage + LED type draws, so most openers need to be doing Griselbrand things, other than an occasional EtW line). GT is no Griselbrand, but if you have an LED or self discard plus a Reanimation spell and Grave Titan in your hand, you're still going to win a lot of games. Even off of a Shallow Grave, Titan is no joke. He slams for 6 and leaves behind four 2/2s. He makes Faithless Looting a little bit better, adds a small amount of Surgical Protection post-board, and pitches to Unmask in a pinch. I'm not sure on him but I want to give him a try. In Ice Station Zebra I win a lot of games by wishing for and hardcasting this guy...I think he will be serviceable here too.

Reanimates: Never cast one this league. Another concession to being less combo dense. Having more reanimation spells means less hands that do nothing, and add to our turn 1 and 2 goldfish %.
I could see dropping at least one of these and maybe both. Perhaps for another looting. I thought reanimator would be really popular, and I like this card Vs them for obvious reasons, but it seems Sneak and Show is the Griselbrand deck that is gaining the most traction.

Only 2 Faithless Looting: I only really want one of these when I have a Griselbrand/Grave Titan in hand, and even then we have 4 LEDs and 8 self discard to bin them. The digging is fine, but with 4 Unmask (a card I really like), the card disadvantage really adds up (and they aren't black cards for Unmask). I really don't think 4 are needed.

4 Unmask/4 Thoughtseize/0 Therapy (1 Silent Gravestone board). I've made it pretty clear I'm not the biggest fan of CT elsewhere in this thread. I think 1 is justifiable but I do believe that the full package of the best discard spells available is correct. I also like the full 8, since I think the best way to fight against Surgical/Macabre is with discard now that DRS is gone. I am down to 1 Silent Gravestone in the board because without DRS it's just not as important imo.

Ancient Grudge: Wouldn't leave home without it. We are already playing Badlands and Bayou (for Rev Silence). This card is invaluable as part of our toolbox vs things like Sphere of Resistance and Needle effects. My last game against lands I beat a Sphere by Entombing Griselbrand eot, Exhuming, sacrificing LED for GGG discarding Grudge and then going off.

Gamble: Never wished for it and it probably does not belong. Still might be intriguing. The thinking was with Unburial and LED this is essentially an Entomb that doesn't cost 3 like Buried Alive. In retrospect that's probably way too narrow, and the rest of our sideboard contains every other effect we might want to tutor for....I'm going to ponder if there are any other good situations to Wish for this card.

3 Faerie Macabre: Again, I wanted to win the Reanimator matchup. I wanted less emphasis on Silent Gravestone for other matchups, so I added these. I never played against Reanimator and never boarded them in. Playing fewer of these or swapping some with Surgicals or whatever is prob also fine. I think Macabre is a little better than Surgical though.

I guess the last comment on what scottpou has been doing is that I really don't think Conflagrate belongs. It's very win-more. Any card that is effective in our deck only after there is a Griselbrand in play is highly suspect, since we are already winning 98% of those games. It's just not going to move the needle enough to make for a worthwhile inclusion after balancing for the times when you draw this miserable card. Convince me otherwise!

[.dk]

Nice writeup. I find Ancient Grudge to be interesting - do you think being able to board it in as an Entomb target outweighs something like Meltdown that you can wish for?

I also agree on the Gamble/Buried Alive front. Almost always seems like something more versatile would usually get the job done in that slot - Dark Petition, Grim Tutor, etc.

I like Grave Titan a lot too - he's easily castable in decks like these, and it such a pain for opponents to deal with. Gravy Train is a house!

[Jblinder]

I find Ancient Grudge to be interesting - do you think being able to board it in as an Entomb target outweighs something like Meltdown that you can wish for?


I have a By Force in the sideboard to Wish for in addition to the option to board in Grudge. If I could only choose one I’d probably keep the By Force but there is enough space for both.

[.dk]

I have a By Force in the sideboard to Wish for in addition to the option to board in Grudge. If I could only choose one I’d probably keep the By Force but there is enough space for both.

Oh derp, I missed that. Whoops!

[hovercraft]

In a Burning Wish list like that with LED, I kind of like 2x Gamble better main deck than the 2x Faithless Lootings. A lot of hands are just missing an LED or a Grisel in the yard to be explosive. And I think a 2nd Unburial Rites fits better than Reanimate. Reanimate is still worth the wish-slot as the cheapest reanimation to cast.

Grave Titan is definitely worth a slot. Good to have a non Karakas-able creature in the main with the amount of DnT around again, and like you said hard casting him isn't that hard.

I used to like having 1 or 2 Simian Spirit Guide as extra fast/red mana, have you tried any? Could Past in Flames be worth that wish-slot over Gamble?

[Jblinder]

In a Burning Wish list like that with LED, I kind of like 2x Gamble better main deck than the 2x Faithless Lootings. A lot of hands are just missing an LED or a Grisel in the yard to be explosive. And I think a 2nd Unburial Rites fits better than Reanimate. Reanimate is still worth the wish-slot as the cheapest reanimation to cast.

Grave Titan is definitely worth a slot. Good to have a non Karakas-able creature in the main with the amount of DnT around again, and like you said hard casting him isn't that hard.

I used to like having 1 or 2 Simian Spirit Guide as extra fast/red mana, have you tried any? Could Past in Flames be worth that wish-slot over Gamble?

I've played Burning Wish Fins a lot in the past until I settled on Ice Station Zebra, and always loved the idea of Gamble. I've played as many as four and they are just seldom as good as I want them to be. Maybe worth another look though. I think at least one Looting should be in there even as a rare Entomb target in the mid to late game when you're out of gas.

I like that Reanimate costs 1. It opens up more lines when mana is short and doesn't need LED to be a functional draw. I think Reanimate>Corpse Dance>Second Unburial. The first is huge but in general Unburial is a crappy draw but unreal valuable Entomb target in my experience. I will note that if you are running Gambles, I do like upping the Unburial count, since LED+Griselbrand or LED+Unburial is awesome with Gamble. Griselbrand + Unburial + Gamble is also sweet...if you're not unlucky!

PIF in the board could be interesting. I think I'll try it for awhile. Simian Spirit Guide is another card I should try

[hovercraft]

I've played Burning Wish Fins a lot in the past until I settled on Ice Station Zebra, and always loved the idea of Gamble. I've played as many as four and they are just seldom as good as I want them to be. Maybe worth another look though. I think at least one Looting should be in there even as a rare Entomb target in the mid to late game when you're out of gas.

I like that Reanimate costs 1. It opens up more lines when mana is short and doesn't need LED to be a functional draw. I think Reanimate>Corpse Dance>Second Unburial. The first is huge but in general Unburial is a crappy draw but unreal valuable Entomb target in my experience. I will note that if you are running Gambles, I do like upping the Unburial count, since LED+Griselbrand or LED+Unburial is awesome with Gamble. Griselbrand + Unburial + Gamble is also sweet...if you're not unlucky!

PIF in the board could be interesting. I think I'll try it for awhile. Simian Spirit Guide is another card I should try

Yeah that's fair re: Gamble and Looting. Gamble has more built in variance in it's effectiveness, where Looting is more consistent but a bit less powerful. I think I will test 2 Gamble 2 Unburial Rites for now, but that could easily change. I don't mind praying to the Gamble gods for their blessing now and then.

Do you miss the Lab maniac as a win con at all? Are any silver bullet reanimation targets like Iona or Elesh Norn worth any sideboard slots? Shallow Grave makes them a little too unreliable to stick around I guess.

[Jblinder]

Yeah that's fair re: Gamble and Looting. Gamble has more built in variance in it's effectiveness, where Looting is more consistent but a bit less powerful. I think I will test 2 Gamble 2 Unburial Rites for now, but that could easily change. I don't mind praying to the Gamble gods for their blessing now and then.

Do you miss the Lab maniac as a win con at all? Are any silver bullet reanimation targets like Iona or Elesh Norn worth any sideboard slots? Shallow Grave makes them a little too unreliable to stick around I guess.

Don’t miss the labman strategically. Burning wish for tendrils is very reliable and the only wincon you need once you stick a griselbrand.

I do miss winning by drawing the whole deck with a labman in play; it just doesn’t make sense to run him here.

[Captain Morgan]

Report: Burning Tin Fins (3-0-1) at Local Weekly Legacy - 7/26/18

==PREFACE==

A member of the cult of Griselbrand, I spent the first couple post-ban weeks giving UB Reanimator another spin. After some not awful but definitely lackluster results, I sat down to figure out how to replace the Gitaxian Probes in my Burning Tin Fins list.

This week I managed to win the first three matches and ID the last so we could all go the bar early. Living the dream!
Emerged victorious against Moon Stompy, Eldrazi Stompy, and D&T. ID against Grixis Delver - we almost played for fun, but decided to bar instead.
General reflections and thoughts on specific cards at the bottom.

==DECKLIST==

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Grave Titan

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

3 Thoughtseize
3 Unmask
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
1 Reanimate
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
4 Dark Ritual

2 Swamp
2 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt (Yes, this should be a Badlands. Gemstone Mine might also have merit here though.)
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Reanimate
1 Exhume
1 Buried Alive
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Reverent Silence
1 By Force
1 Duress
2 Massacre
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Silent Gravestone
1 Serenity

==MATCHES==
Quick note on the parens before each game: W or L for win or loss, P or D for play or draw.

=R1: Moon Stompy (2-1)=

G1: (W/P) I am about 90% certain my opponent is playing Moon Stompy this week so I keep an extremely slow but very safe hand consisting of 3 land (1 Swamp), 2 Burning Wish, and some other things I didn't note. I don't have anything to do on T1, and just play one of the non-swamps. Opp plays right into my plans with a T1 Chalice for 1. I drop a Swamp, wish for Buried Alive, and pass. Opp does nothing relevant (Blood Moons?) for a couple turns while I Buried Alive for Griselbrand, Children, Griselbrand, and topdeck an Exhume to cast on T4. Opp scoops.

SB: -1 Faithless Looting, -1 Griselbrand (possibly a mistake, but wound up not being an issue)
+1 Serenity, +1 Ancient Grudge
I plan to lean more heavily on Burning Wish here as I know my opponent mulls heavily to Leylines (of the Void) in addition to having Chalices/Bridges. Looting feels really bad vs Leyline and is not great for some Wish lines, so I think cutting one is the right move. Serenity and Grudge are great here for obvious reasons.

G2: (L-D) I keep a hand that threatens to make a lot of goblins on T2 if I find an additonal non-LED mana source. Opp opens up with T0 Leyline of the Void, followed by T1 Chalice on 1. I play a land and pass while opp follows up with T2 Chalice on 2. The out here is LED + Griselbrand + Unburial Rites, but I only have an LED in hand and just scoop 'em up after my draw step.

G3: (W-P) I keep 3 fetches, Griselbrand, Unmask, Exhume, Entomb. Opp has T0 Leyline, so I just play lands and pass while opp drops a Magus of the Moon (I fetch for a Swamp) and starts swinging. I draw into Burning Wish. The line is high risk, high reward: Unmask opp, take his Rabblemaster, Wish for Stronghold Gambit. Opp draws and passes with a card in hand. I go for the Gambit and he reveals... Blood Moon! Crisis averted, but I'm at 14 and can only draw 7 cards and have to pass. Opp immediately finds an Ensnaring Bridge to prevent the Griselsmacks. We play draw-go for a while. Opp draws more Bridges and Moons (and some lands) but fortunately for me no Chalices or 3-balls. Opp is at 18 from an Ancient Tomb ding, and I eventually assemble 6 lands in play and a hand of 2 Dark Ritual, 2 LED, Burning Wish, Unmask, Entomb, Shallow Grave. I cast *everything* and Wish for an exactly-lethal Tendrils kill.

G3 is exactly why I like the Burning Wish variant for my local meta: I've lost far too many games to our high proportion of Chalice/Bridge decks. Access to Tendrils of Agony is key here.


=R2: Eldrazi Stompy (2-1)=

G1: (L/D) I have some rough mulligans and keep an-okay-but-not-great 5. After a few turns I'm 1 mana shy of going off in some fashion and die to typical Eldrazi shenanigans before I can draw out of it.

SB: -1 Faithless Looting, -1 Reanimate
+1 Serentiy, +1 Ancient Grudge
This is basically the same plan as Moon Stompy: lean on Burning Wish to help get around Leyline and Chalice, bring in Serenity to try for the slam dunk.

G2: (W/P) T1 Unmask reveals that opp kept 5 Lands, Chalice, Endless One, and I take Chalice for obvious reasons. He deploys the Endless One while I manage to set things up and Burning Wish + LED (black) for my sideboard Exhume. Raise Griselbrand with B floating, activate the Griselgrip, and let him devour the Children (repeatedly) until I can Wish for lethal Tendrils.

G3: (W/D) I keep a fairly resilient 7-card hand with a Swamp, a few Lotus Petals, and the sideboard Serenity(!). Opp has T0 Leyline and T1 (on the play) Thorn of Amethyst. I am forced to spend my T1 and T2 paying for Lotus Petals while opp has T2 Endless One for 2 and T3 Sorcerous Spyglass naming Griselbrand. On my T3, I sac the Petals to cast Serenity and ship it back. After Serenity gloriously destroys all of the hate on T4, I Ritual into Entomb + Shallow Grave, slap opp with Griselbrand, do the Tin Fins thing and eventually storm into the Tendrils Kill.

The lesson here is that sometimes Serenity is fucking bananas. And apparently there IS some small number of games where the Eldrazi player doesn't draw TKS.


=R3: D&T=

G1: (W/D) This is the first time I've seen this opponent at these weekly events but I know he's on D&T from observing after prior rounds. Opp does not know I am on Tin Fins and T2 taps out to cast Jitte. I EOT Entomb and untap with a Shallow Grave, swing and eventually land the Tendrils.

SB: -1 Faithless Looting -1 Unmask
+1 Massacre +1 Serenity
Finding things to board out was tough here but eventually I settled on an Unmask and Faithless Looting to avoid card disadvantage in case of weird Wish lines.

G2: (W/D) I keep a hand with 3 reanimation spells, Unmask, Entomb, Chrome Mox, land. I believe opp plays Mom on T1. On my T1 I (luckily) draw Massacre then Unmask him taking a RIP, and drop Chrome Mox exiling an extra exhume. Opp's inexperience with Legacy shows here - he topdecks Containment Priest, but plays it on his main phase and passes. EOT Entomb -> untap -> Massacre -> Shallow Grave -> swing -> snackrifice Children until it's Tendrils time.

Sideboard for today really shone again here - having a Massacre to board in was clutch with 3 D&T players in the room.

=Bonus: between-round games with another D&T player)=
Opp has the play in G1 and leads with Plains and either Mom or Vial. I kill him on Turn 1 with ye olde Ritual -> Entomb -> Shallow Grave -> ???????? -> Tendrils

Post-board in G2 I also have a T1 kill while he stares sadly at the RIP in his hand.
Our second pre-board game is cut short by the next round's pairings, but I reveal a hand that makes 10 goblins on T2 or maybe 3 and hopes it's good enough. It probably was in this instance.


=R4: Grixis Delver (ID)=

We decide to ID and nearly play the match for fun, but decide to head to the bar early with some of the other legacy players instead.
Ultimately though, I think this counts as a victory. 4-0, fuck yeah!

If I had to sideboard here, I'd likely bring in Silent Gravestone and possibly my own Surgical depending on how many I think my opponent has. None of the other options make much sense here.


==General Reflections and Card Choices==

The deck felt great and ran pretty smoothly with fairly few mulligans. My general rule for mulliganing here is that a hand without a Griselbrand, Entomb or some obvious alternative plan is not worth keeping. I can afford to try to draw into mana sometimes with 23 (14 Lands, 4 Petal, Chrome Mox, 4 Dark Rit) available mana sources, discounting LEDs which require the right conditions.

Mainboard Grave Titan never came up but is a concession to the fact that sometimes this deck can't find Griselbrand or Entomb and needs something else that doesn't suck with Shallow Grave. Titan at least hits for 6 and leaves behind 8 power to try and mop things up. Not the greatest, but probably good enough as a T1 play. It's also non-legendary and totally fine with one of the other 5 reanimation spells.

I replaced Gitaxian Probes with the Grave Titan, Chrome Mox, and extra discard. I like having the single Cabal Therapy since there are edge cases where it can be Entombed for and/or used to build storm count. The extra discard also helps make up for the loss of free information from the Probe ban.

Shaving down to 3 Faithless Lootings felt right. The Burning Wish lines rely on having a critical mass of other fuel, so it's really only good if there's already a creature or Rites to discard. It often felt correct to delay casting them until at least one acceptable discard was guaranteed, and I boarded one out without missing it in every round.

I like having access to a single Reanimate mainboard since it opens up the traditional reanimator T1 Land -> Petal -> Entomb -> Reanimate line, can play around Daze more easily, and is occasionally cute (and sometimes even good) when used to Unmask and Reanimate the opponent's creatures.

The full 4 Burning Wish help to get out of weird situations in G1 and are key for playing around hate in G2/G3. Also great when constantly fighting Chalice on 1. Do not underestimate the power of T1/T2 lines that wish for Empty the Warrens for 8+ Goblins. If the opponent has sideboarded for Reanimator, there's a good chance they're not ready to fight the Goblin army.

I was *very* happy with my sideboard for this event. Drawing the few cards I sideboarded in were super clutch in Rounds 2 and 3 - Serenity and Massacre were both monstrous blowouts. Having access to Ancient Grudge and especially Serenity felt correct with the amount of stompy in the local meta. 2nd Massacre to board in was a great call with 3 D&T players showing up.

I think the sideboard Duress should actually be the 4th Thoughtseize or a Cullective Brutality so that it can rip Griselbrand out of hand if it has to.

[grimfield]

I played Captain Morgan’s list to a 2-1 finish at a local event. The only changes I made were an additional badlands although the brutality sb they suggest would have won me a game I went too slowly with buried alive.

G1(draw-win)
I’m playing against Big Eldrazi. He leads on ancient tomb, chalice for one. I play a land and pass, hoping to avoid TKS. He plays a grim monolith, pass. I’m able to unmask myself the following turn, exhume Gris and storm off.

G2(draw-loss)
He opens with leyline x2. My hand includes scrubland, serenity and petal. I play serenity turn one. He stumbles on mana and passes back, giving me a window. I entomb Gris and hope to rip another land for the shallow grave in my hand. Don’t find it and he resolved trinisphere followed by smasher and tks which quickly win the game.

G3(play-win)
I keep a turn two 7 with burning wish. He opens with leyline, I use a petal to wish for reverent silence. The next turn I cash in silence after my opponent has no plays. Then I unmask myself and shallow grave, ultimately getting children and tendrils for 46 (could have styled more probably).

In these games I generally cut lootingx1, Grisx1 for grudge and serenity.

Match 2: infect
G1(play-win)
He keeps a hand heavy on interaction and light on speed. I manage to thoughtseize away a FoW, leaving a pierce. We draw for a few turns and then I unmask him after entomb has resolved. Seeing it’s clear, I shallow grave and tendrils him out.

G2(draw-win)
My hand is a little slow but has ancient grudge and an entomb. He plays an elf and chips me for one. I have a few dark rituals and use that + petal to wish for empty the warrens for 10 and pass. Opponent declines to swing and plays inkmoth. I swing in with 8 and pass back, keeping grudge up. He goes all in on inkmoth and I grudge in response to berserk, he has daze but I can pay with my bayou, or flash it back. Goblins get there.

In: grudge, duress, cut lootingx1, unmask. Being able to wish for unmask was good to me this tournament but I think it’s play/draw dependent.

Match 3: grixis
G1(draw-win)
He is on an aggro/removal heavy version with thoughtscour and extra fish. Turn one he ponders. I lead with thoughtseize, seeing pierce, FoW. He plays a delver, pass. I’m able to play around pierce after he lets entomb resolve by playing out LED then shallow grave. He loses to tendrils.

G2(draw-loss)
He opens with thoughtseize and gets going with a delver. I have LED in play and a hand of Gris, shallow gravex2, burning wish, unmask. I brick on a black card, drawing chrome mox. He plays angler. I draw the black card and unmask, taking FoW, leaving daze and pierce. He swings in and I try to bait with a shallow grave. I crack LED to bin Gris and misplay, the game probably was out of reach regardless.

G3(play-loss)
I keep a slow hand with 2x burning wish, shallow grave. He thoughtseize me 2x while I wish for buried alive. Fearing surgical I also get titan. He does have surgical and a pierce for the exhume. I needed to draw some more discard but he played anglers on subsequent turns, making it hard for me to wait around. Probably should have mulled this hand for a better six, but I expect myself to be bad at mulligans the first time I play a new version.

Overall the deck felt smooth, silent gravestone seems like it would have been great if I could have drawn it. Maybe two copies are in order?

The gas LED provides usually lets you win with 14 cards fairly easily, which older blue versions of this deck I ran really required Gris to connect sometimes (hence goryo’s vengeance). I am interested in trying corpse dance as casting things at instant speed vs blue can be big game.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Koby]

People still play this format? :shrug:

What's a good list to dick around with at weeklies?

[Darkgobs]

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.artofmtg.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F09%2FNiv-Mizzet-Parun.jpg&f=1

It's probably not efficient, but it might be fun to kill the opponent with infinite draw with Griselbrand + Children + this new dude! :cool:
Let's say it's another way to win through an ensnaring bridge or so.


EDIT: I just remembered that this dude was already printed... well, sorry then: nothing new.
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwizards.com%2Fmagic%2Fimages%2Fmtgcom%2Ffcpics%2Ftaste%2Fmc21_sq10612ljc752ixa.jpg&f=1

[Kobra_D]

Evening Everyone, Inspired by the desire of having a transformational board plan like ice zebra station, and with the emergence of the UB shadow deck, I bring you this nightmare of a fever dream.

It did reasonably well in testing (goblins:2-1,rb reanimator:1-2,lands:2-0,ub shadow:2-1) but didn't feel as explosive as some other builds. Sideboard plan into ds felt really good in matchups with a lot of counter spells that are otherwise tedious to slog through. Probably needs some work and tweaking but doesn't hurt to put out onto other peoples radar. Enjoy.


4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
4 Exhume
3 Reanimate

4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

4 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
4 Brainstorm
3 Careful Study
2 Ponder
4 Daze

SB: 3 Silent Gravestone
SB: 4 Death's Shadow
SB: 4 Stubborn Denial
SB: 4 Street Wraith

[scottpou]

Finally getting back into playing after summer vaca and projects. Here's my current Martian Law build. Also started recording games on MTGO and uploading to youtube. Hope to start streaming some games soon too.

// Martian Law

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
3 Grave Titan

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave

3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Unmask
4 Faithless Looting
3 Burning Wish
1 Past in Flames

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

1 Swamp
2 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta

// Sideboard
3 Silent Gravestone
1 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Exhume
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Reanimate
2 Gamble

[scottpou]

The reanimate and Gamble's have been useless. Going back to 3 serenity in the board.

[scottpou]

After more testing, the Gambles have been extremely valuable. See YouTube link for example (https://youtu.be/dzd48Pbj990):

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Brutality
1 Unmask

4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
1 Gamble
1 Manamorphose
1 Past in Flames

4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

2 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

//SIDEBOARD
4 Silent Gravestone
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Exhume
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Gamble
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre

[UGish]

Hi, been testing this and playing locally, positive win rate, what do you think??
Sideboard, Silent Gravestone in for Surgical, Deed for in for everything else.




4 griz
1 children of korolis

5

4 dark rit
4 lotus petal
2 chrome mox
1 simian spirit guide
4 shallow grave
4 burning wish
4 entomb
4 brainstorm
2 cabal therapy
2 duress
4 thoughtsieze
3 show and tell
2 omniscience
2 lim-duls vault

42

4 polluted delta
2 u-sea
1 badlands
1 volcanic island
1 swamps
1 bayou
3 bloodstained mire

13


SIDE

1 dark petition
1 tendriles of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 grape shot
1 exhume
3 pernious deed
3 silent gravestone
1 massacre
1 toxic deluge
1 show and tell
1 enter the infinite

[thecrav]

Hi, been testing this and playing locally, positive win rate, what do you think??
Sideboard, Silent Gravestone in for Surgical, Deed for in for everything else.


I think that is a list of Legacy legal cards.

What do you think?

Is there a reason that you chose these cards over the standard cards?

How has your testing gone?

[UGish]

I think that is a list of Legacy legal cards.

What do you think?

Is there a reason that you chose these cards over the standard cards?

How has your testing gone?

Yes I agree, looks kinda wild. I wanted to play a Tin fins list that didn't have Emmy or LED, drawing the deck to recycle it for mana is to long and complicated, haha, I'm lazy and dumb, show and tell is perfect

After playing some weeklies and testing more, made some changes.

Deed is great, kills everything and won me at least 3 games at the weeklies. Did not like Lim-dul's Vault, changed to Spellseeker, read in the Bizzaro thread about Seeker for Cabal Therapy, cast plus flashback, strong against blue.

I don't miss Ponder, rather have the speed and the tutors, easier to find the line or mulligan.

Magus of the mind was added over 4th Griz because better if life is low.

3 griz
1 magus of the mind
1 children of korlis
2 spellseeker

7

4 dark rit
4 lotus petal
2 chrome mox
4 shallow grave
1 exhume
3 burning wish
4 entomb
4 brainstorm
1 cabal therapy
3 duress
4 thoughtsieze
3 show and tell
2 omniscience
1 rite of flame

40

4 polluted delta
2 u-sea
1 badlands
1 volcanic island
1 swamps
1 bayou
3 bloodstained mire

13


SIDE

1 dark petition
1 tendriles of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 grape shot
1 exhume
1 toxic deluge
1 show and tell
1 enter the infinite
1 echoing truth
3 pernious deed
3 silent gravestone

[Nik842]

Is there no Primer or Thread for Ice Station Zebra?
I've searched but for the life of my can't find it.

[.dk]

Is there no Primer or Thread for Ice Station Zebra?
I've searched but for the life of my can't find it.

This is the last known one from JBlinder a while back:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KzQj8YO2Nd5MZDfQ_2K63VNGVXUk84Fn

I'm sure a few specific card choices have changed since then, but it's a really comprehensive guide and should cover 95% of what you're looking for, I would imagine.

[Jblinder]

This is the last known one from JBlinder a while back:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KzQj8YO2Nd5MZDfQ_2K63VNGVXUk84Fn

I'm sure a few specific card choices have changed since then, but it's a really comprehensive guide and should cover 95% of what you're looking for, I would imagine.

I haven’t played ice station (or magic at all, really) recently, but assassin’s trophy is an important printing for the deck since that primer was written. Because of its versatility I think it’s far and away the best option to deal with problem permanents. I like making room for 2-3 and going to 2 silent gravestone in the board. It’s a little less important with drs gone.

[Jblinder]

I've been a bit out of the loop and didn't even know Arclight Phoenix was a card until today. Apparently it's the hotness in Modern and people are brewing with it in Legacy. I tried my hand at jamming it into a Fins shell, and it actually worked out quite well in VERY limited testing. Thought I'd throw it out here in case people want to tinker around with it.

4 Burning Wish
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
3 Griselbrand
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize

(a fairly standard Burning Fins shell so far)

3 Buried Alive
4 Arclight Phoenix

(these essentially take up what would otherwise be flex spots; extra discard/collective brutaily, reanimates, a grave titan, etc...also take Children's slot. I've found Children mostly unnecessary in Burning Fins, as storming off often happens without needing to go through Children)

2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
8 Black Fetchland
2 Swamp

Wishboard:
Tendrils of Agony
Empty the Warrens
Collective Brutality
Buried Alive
Exhume
Reanimate
Reverent Silence
By Force
Massacre
Gamble* Kind of cool to be able to grab that last Phoenix, which I did once
Last Chance* Didn't use yet but I can see Burning Wish into Last Chance, trigger 3 Phoenix and attack twice for the win being a line
3 Silent Gravestone
1 Ancient Grudge



What was promising about the deck is that I went 3-0 so far (like I said, very limited testing) and every win was actually with the Phoenix plan, which was unexpected. I still think Griselbrand is the plan A, but Phoenix seems to be no joke, and offers a lot of mid to late game resiliency. Burning Wish is shines even more than normal in this build, as it offers two spells to feed the Phoenix, as well as being able to fetch the Buried Alive itself (with LED to potentially cast it immediately). LED/Looting is also highly relevant to get that third spell for the turn.

[Whitefaces]

Absolutely love it, will be giving this a whirl for sure!

[hovercraft]

Great idea Jblinder. As soon as I saw people using buried alive with the Phoenix it seemed natural to try to combine it with reanimation strategies.

[ManaT]

My biggest concern is not the power level of phoenix in reanimator strategies, it's that it's hit by all the same hate. It doesn't seem to diversify the deck. Granted, maybe the added consistency is just too good to pass up, but I'll let other people test it and find out for me.

[YIGIT]

Some ISZ action on camera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5-64atIQMI

Decklist: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20795&f=LE

[Jblinder]

Some ISZ action on camera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5-64atIQMI

Decklist: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20795&f=LE


Always painful to me to see newer pilots of the deck getting griselbrand onto the table with no mana floating and not immediately cracking LED for BBB (attack first if shallow grave) before drawing. LED is very powerful on the combo turn if used correctly. Start doing this if you’re playing ISZ and not doing it already (and watch your fizzle rate decrease dramatically).

Haven’t yet watched video beyond the first draw 7; had to come back to post this haha.

[MScott]

Been Playing ANT for a while, has tin fins moved from blue and now is a jund or mardu color? or is there still an esper list?

[Jblinder]

Kind of think this new M20 card veil of summer might be worth sb slots in tin fins lists that can support it. Playing this in response to a ponder on their turn and shallow graving at end of turn seems kind of cool. Countering a thoughtseize and cantripping seems similarly cool. Autumns veil was almost a fringe option but this card actually seems good.

[Jblinder]

Been Playing ANT for a while, has tin fins moved from blue and now is a jund or mardu color? or is there still an esper list?

Esper tin fins is still perfectly playable. I tend to think the LED versions, specifically Ice Station Zebra and Burning Fins are a little better, but Brainstorm is a helluva drug. Just go back a few pages; I’m sure there are some Esper lists.

[MScott]

3x Griselbrand
1x Children of Korilis
1x Emrakul, Aeons Torn
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Lotus Petal
1x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Careful Study
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Goryo’s Vengeance
4x Entomb
4x Thoughtseize
1x Reanimate
1x Unburial Rites
4x Exhume
4x Daze
2x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Island


This is an altered list from a friend of mine. Any thoughts?

[thecrav]

Any thoughts?

I think that is a list of Legacy legal cards.

What do you think?

Is there a reason you chose those cards over the standard build?

How has your testing gone?

[Jblinder]

Accidentally wrote a reply without quoting--Edited and posted below.

[Jblinder]

3x Griselbrand
1x Children of Korilis
1x Emrakul, Aeons Torn
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Lotus Petal
1x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Careful Study
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Goryo’s Vengeance
4x Entomb
4x Thoughtseize
1x Reanimate
1x Unburial Rites
4x Exhume
4x Daze
2x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Island


This is an altered list from a friend of mine. Any thoughts?

Stuff I feel very strongly about:

Tendrils of Agony does not belong, and should be replaced by 1xCollective Brutailty. Once you have the Children + Griselbrand interaction (the only time Tendrils is reliably good), you will never need a ToA, since you can keep looping through your deck using Emrakul, making more mana every time and eventually hardcasting Emmy for the win. The Collective Brutality is there to still win through a card like Ensnaring Bridge. You use the same infinite deck loop to cast that one CB over and over until your opponent is dead. The key difference is that ToA is very close to a dead draw when you don't have a Griselbrand in play. Collective Brutaily is actually a real magic card.

Shallow Grave is better than both Exhume and Goryo's. Exhume doesn't give haste, can't be cast at instant speed to blow out a Surgical and can't bring back a hasty Emrakul. Goryo's targets and cannot return Children. In this build with no LED, Goryo's is probably the best complement to the auto-4 Shallow Grave.

Stuff I feel less strongly about, but do think will improve the deck:

1 Unburial Rites: A card I never leave home without these days, but all my builds play Lion's Eye Diamond. Without it I expect this card to be way too clunky. You can try it but expect it to vastly underperform. The whole idea is something like turn 1 Dark Ritual, LED, Entomb Unburial Rites...win. In your deck you're going to need a way to first bin Griselbrand, then a bunch of mana and an Entomb for the Rites. It's just not going to happen often, and you'll be mostly sad when you draw this card.

4xCareful Study: Back when Esper lists were the norm, 4 Ponder and 0 CS was the Gold Standard. I started playing CS, and was very happy with it in general, but it becomes a liability post board when the card disadvantage matters more and you don't often want to recklessly throw GB into the yard turn 1 because of surgical. I like a 2 Ponder 2 CS split better. If you do play 4 (and probably even if you play just 1-2) I'd def suggest playing the full 4 Griselbrand as well.

4xDaze: Daze is a card I've tried, and when it works it's fantastic. When it doesn't it's really bad. I don't think Daze is bad, but I think it is in a slot that I'd much prefer to be Unmask. That card is pure gas, and is much more reliable forcing through the combo than Daze. I think it would be really cool to play just one Daze. That way the times you do draw it, the opponent will play around it the rest of the match like you have four, when in reality you'll almost never actually have it. That's good value.

This is what I would suggest given your list as a starting point:

4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
2 Careful Study
2 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Unmask
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Brutality
1 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
4 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire

[MScott]

Stuff I feel very strongly about:

Tendrils of Agony does not belong, and should be replaced by 1xCollective Brutailty. Once you have the Children + Griselbrand interaction (the only time Tendrils is reliably good), you will never need a ToA, since you can keep looping through your deck using Emrakul, making more mana every time and eventually hardcasting Emmy for the win. The Collective Brutality is there to still win through a card like Ensnaring Bridge. You use the same infinite deck loop to cast that one CB over and over until your opponent is dead. The key difference is that ToA is very close to a dead draw when you don't have a Griselbrand in play. Collective Brutaily is actually a real magic card.

Shallow Grave is better than both Exhume and Goryo's. Exhume doesn't give haste, can't be cast at instant speed to blow out a Surgical and can't bring back a hasty Emrakul. Goryo's targets and cannot return Children. In this build with no LED, Goryo's is probably the best complement to the auto-4 Shallow Grave.

Stuff I feel less strongly about, but do think will improve the deck:

1 Unburial Rites: A card I never leave home without these days, but all my builds play Lion's Eye Diamond. Without it I expect this card to be way too clunky. You can try it but expect it to vastly underperform. The whole idea is something like turn 1 Dark Ritual, LED, Entomb Unburial Rites...win. In your deck you're going to need a way to first bin Griselbrand, then a bunch of mana and an Entomb for the Rites. It's just not going to happen often, and you'll be mostly sad when you draw this card.

4xCareful Study: Back when Esper lists were the norm, 4 Ponder and 0 CS was the Gold Standard. I started playing CS, and was very happy with it in general, but it becomes a liability post board when the card disadvantage matters more and you don't often want to recklessly throw GB into the yard turn 1 because of surgical. I like a 2 Ponder 2 CS split better. If you do play 4 (and probably even if you play just 1-2) I'd def suggest playing the full 4 Griselbrand as well.

4xDaze: Daze is a card I've tried, and when it works it's fantastic. When it doesn't it's really bad. I don't think Daze is bad, but I think it is in a slot that I'd much prefer to be Unmask. That card is pure gas, and is much more reliable forcing through the combo than Daze. I think it would be really cool to play just one Daze. That way the times you do draw it, the opponent will play around it the rest of the match like you have four, when in reality you'll almost never actually have it. That's good value.

This is what I would suggest given your list as a starting point:

4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
2 Careful Study
2 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Unmask
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Brutality
1 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
4 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire

Yea I toyed around with the deck when top/counterbalance miracles was the entire meta, so my views may be odd. Do you have a burning wish list you like? and is grixis ever a thing?

[thecrav]

Please put in some amount of effort. There are scores of pages of discussion about specific cards, deck lists, side boarding strategy, and more. Eight of your nine posts are requests for info or input with no thoughts of your own.


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27161-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)-Storm-Combo&p=1070136#post1070136
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27161-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)-Storm-Combo&p=1070177#post1070177
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27161-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)-Storm-Combo&p=1070259#post1070259
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27161-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)-Storm-Combo&p=1071246#post1071246
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27161-Deck-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)-Storm-Combo&p=1071491#post1071491
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-Deck-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=1071847#post1071847
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-Deck-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=1071855#post1071855
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-Deck-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=1071951#post1071951

Scroll back. Find a Burning Wish list. What do you think of that list? What changes do you think should be made? Why do you think these things?

[MScott]

Please put in some amount of effort. There are scores of pages of discussion about specific cards, deck lists, side boarding strategy, and more. Eight of your nine posts are requests for info or input with no thoughts of your own.


Im sorry i thought this was a site where people who know less about these decks can ask questions because they are interested in them, rather then be forced to add knowledge without any way to gain it

[thecrav]

Im sorry i thought this was a site where people who know less about these decks can ask questions because they are interested in them

You have misread me. As someone who has read your entire forum history, this does not shock me.

Google "How to ask good questions." A good question requires effort. You might, for example, provide a deck list, and list the reasons for any non-standard choices, giving other commenters a starting point for their responses. Here is an example of someone doing exactly that, only one page ago. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-Deck-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=1058777&viewfull=1#post1058777) Or you might link an old decklist, then link MTGGoldfish's metagame analysis and ask whether a particular card should be swapped for one that more adequately answers that analysis.


rather then be forced to add knowledge without any way to gain it

This thread is currently one hundred seventy-three pages long. If you cannot find a way to find some amount of information about the deck, there is nothing that we can do to help you.

All that said, if I had a tournament coming up (and I do) and I wanted to play Tin Fins (and I do) and I hadn't played it in a while (and I haven't), I would play the following.

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Monastery Mentor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Echoing Truth
1 Serenity

This is quite close to the traditional build. It chooses Collective Brutality over Tendrils of Agony, which takes longer but is better overall. The sideboard is transformative, which is useful to me because I haven't played in a while and it's easier to play something that probably isn't hit by their hate then it is to play against their hate when you don't know what their hate is. The remainder of the sideboard is fairly usual for a combo deck in Esper colors - Massacre to wipe Death and Taxes pus a few ways to get rid of opposing graveyard hate should the transformation not be the best option.

If you have any specific questions, I'd be happy to address them.

eta:


So you are picking a fight with a 16 year old. Hope you feel good about that. I have been going to FNM at my LGS since my brother took me when I was 8 and until now I have never had a bad experience playing Magic or interacting with people in the community. I do not have experience with this deck, and was just wondering how in the current meta the deck stood and if anyone had suggestions for how to start. YOu dont have to be a fucking raging cunt when someone just wants to know where to start.

[Acclimation]

People still use the Source? Well, I'll be dipped.

The cool thing about decks that floop Griselbrand into play is that, you can play a list that's a couple years old and it'll do pretty well unless you're playing a meta that's nothing but chalice decks and main deck gy hate.

Heck, most of the Esper lists are pretty much the same, with maybe a few sb slots different (are you playing creatures in the sb or reactive stuff) and a few main deck choices (flex slots being more discard, LDV, preordain, Chrome Mox, etc).

As far as meta considerations, maindeck Narset is rough, but if you're running 7-9 discard spells, you can reliably hit a Narset or just end the game before one hits the field. Otherwise new Teferi makes it hard to reanimate Emrakul, but once again, easy to play around when you can either end the game before t3 or just swing in with Griselbrand, then go infinite with CoBru in your second main.

But for anyone reading this and curious about the deck, the primer is still good, and there's literal years of solid discussion here to answer most questions. Also, the discord is the place to be: https://discord.gg/mq9pQfz Keep in mind, we do still like people adding their thoughts to the discussion, because if you share a list and ask "what do you think?" you're not going to get much discussion because there's nothing stimulating about that question. If you share a list and ask "I'm thinking about playing this list, but I'm uncertain about slots X, y, & Z", that's a great question. Almost every question has been asked, and lots of cards have been tried, so it's worth the time to do some reading.

[Richard Cheese]

THE GANG'S ALL HERE!

In other news, TinFins is officially a dinosaur deck now:
https://mythicspoiler.com/m20/cards/rottingregisaur.jpg

[thecrav]

maindeck Narset is rough

Just kill them before they have enough mana to cast Narset, duh.

Once I was drunk talking about how great Tin Fins was and after the fourth time someone said "how do you beat X?" I realized that my answer to that question would always be to just kill them before it matters.

[Acclimation]

Once I was drunk talking about how great Tin Fins was and after the fourth time someone said "how do you beat X?" I realized that my answer to that question would always be to just kill them before it matters.

People get really upset at me when I just tell them my plan to beat X is to just kill them before X is relevant or draw my sideboard cards to deal with X. I have no idea what these people are expecting for a response. I'm not insta-scooping to one card in a vacuum scenario, y'all, I'm playing a fast deck with 8-10 cantrips with general sb answers, theoretically I can beat multiple pieces of hate.

[.dk]

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Monastery Mentor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Echoing Truth
1 Serenity


Just came here to say that this list sucks. It's like... at least 1 maybe 2 cards different than what I would play in the maindeck. Geez, get with the times. Like, what year is it, 2015? (I keed! <3 u Sam!)

I do think this deck warrants testing Teferi, Time Raveler out of the sideboard though. We're in esper and it's a city of solitude that also can deal with Chalice. What's not to love? Outside of 3 CMC that is.

Also, I'm on board for Dino-train. That card seems great in the SB to me - replaces Phyrexian Devourer that @RichardCheese and I tried 6 years ago. And also it actually got him to post in the thread - anything that does that is net positive in my eyes.

[thecrav]

I do think this deck warrants testing Teferi, Time Raveler out of the sideboard though. We're in esper and it's a city of solitude that also can deal with Chalice. What's not to love? Outside of 3 CMC that is.

I want to win a game by responding to their Tendrils of Agony with my Tendrils of Agony.

edit: Actually, I want to NOT LOSE the game by responding to their Tendrils with my Tendrils. Then I'll attack them to death with Children of Korlis the next turn.

[.dk]

I want to win a game by responding to their Tendrils of Agony with my Tendrils of Agony.

jfc this must be done

[thecrav]

Played this pile of Legacy-legal cards in a 26-person tournament Saturday. Full results and 16/26 decklists at http://lonestarlhurgoyfs.com/2019-07-14-13-July-Houstons-Legacy-Results/

https://files.seemsgood.net/mtg/deck-2019-07-13.jpg
R1: Brandon on RG EDH Deck - In two games, he cast two spells, both of which I had to read. T1 kill, T2 kill. 1-0 (2-0)

R2: Johnny on Death and Taxes (https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31085&iddeck=265472) - Had the full specturm of games. G1, killed him T3 or so. G2, boarded into Monks, still didn't get there. G3, see he's boarding heavily after seeing my monks, so I board back into the combo. He gets T2 Rest in Peace, T3 Thalia, and a bunch more hate. I battle valliantly and at one point am a mana away from being able to get a Griselbrand into play but he beats me down. 1-1 (3-2)

R3: Tim on Echoes of Eons Belcher - Finally, a fair match. G1, Tim makes 8 Goblins on T1 and passes, so I kill him. I don't board because boarding this matchup is for those who lack faith. He kills me T1. I continue to not board because I have faith in Griselbrand. I have a good hand but not an insta-kill. Tim makes a Belcher on T1 but doesn't have any mana to activate it. I get a Griselbrand and 21 cards isn't enough to secure the kill. T4, I get another Griselbrand, attack for 7 so I can draw, and still don't get there. I cast two CoBrus to get me over 7 again, then realize that Tim is at 2. I have Children out so I can start comboing but I figure I'll try this first - I shuffle the yard back in with Emmy, hoping to hit CoBru on my draw 7. I find it and kill with an anticlimactic CoBru. 2-1 (5-3)

R4: Kaider on Jeskai Stoneblade (I never saw a red card or even a red source) - G1, Control deck gonna Control deck. G2, Monks beat down hard. G3, return to the combo. I get a Teferi out on turn three and Entomb a Griselbrand turn 4. From there, I draw nothing of value. Eventually he gets a Narset, Parter of Veils, further limiting my ability to find anything useful. He eventually gets there. Ater the game, someone asks how I could've possibly kept that hand. I say, my dude, I had a Griselbrand in the yard with combo protection for seven consecutive turns - how much better did you want the hand to be? In any event, Kaider has to leave soon so even though he won in three, he gives me the match 2-0. 3-1 (7-3)

Doing the math, I think a draw has me 50/50 to make 8 on breakers. My opponent says we can definitely draw in. I flippantly respond "Yea I don't do that" so we sit down for round five.

R5: Nicholas on Grixis Control (https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31085&iddeck=265464) - I don't really remember anything other than not really having any idea what his deck was trying to do. Then I died 3-2 (7-5)

Nicholas ended up in third. I ended up in ninth. I guess I could've made top 8 after all.

As the event was for charity, I got a few people to commit to donate to the charity for each time I activated Griselbrand (https://blog.seemsgood.com/griselbranding-for-good/). The total count over five rounds was 43 activations for a total pledged donations of $344 to Houston Food Bank. A couple of the people who pledged are currently on vacation so I'll have the full followup on that on my website once it happens.

Teferi felt pretty good and I was kinda nnoyed I didn't play against more Blue to get to use him. Narset is dumb good against us. A lot of my losses it felt like I was just waiting to draw things. Maybe I've forgotten how to keep or maybe I was unlucky.

Tinfins is still super fun. I'm pretty sure I had more fun than anyone else in the tournament.

[8bit9mm]

Honestly, it's really awesome that you dedicated your onion bursting for charity.
Nice write-up. Short and sweet.

Also, didn't realize you had a blog, which is also very well put together.

[thecrav]

Also, didn't realize you had a blog, which is also very well put together.

Why thank you! It's Ghost (https://ghost.org/) with just a few modifications - mostly removing features intended for blogs that have multiple writers.

[Acclimation]

It's been a hot minute since I've picked up the deck, so I've made a document that's a sort of primer for 2019 to help me prepare for an upcoming event. I think Tinfins is decently positioned right now, since it's fast enough to go under permanents.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OVDfdg3ytFoK4jvBVchSDP_upLL8yS4BZSDL32vIkDQ/edit?usp=sharing

For anyone wanting to see a list, I'd play something like this in an event:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/497474959871049738/603264567266770981/tin-fins-05-03-13-12.png?width=500&height=298

It's in the document I shared, but I figure people would want to see a list in the forum if they didn't want to click a link.

[guslandt]

Is this deck going to try out K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth? Seems like an ideal fit for the deck. Especially with Children of Korlis to get all that life back.

[alastair]

Is this deck going to try out K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth? Seems like an ideal fit for the deck. Especially with Children of Korlis to get all that life back.

I'm really unsure why you would want or consider K'rrik. Griselbrand is a tool to draw cards/deck before deciding how you intend to win. K'rrik just becomes modestly big for an awful lot of effort, before dying at end of turn having swung for non-trample lifelink damage (assuming its not chumped or worst case TNN blocked and you lose the life).

[Jblinder]

I love me a good tin fins mashup, and we just got a new toy! Haven’t tried this yet. Yes, both halves are weak to the same interactions (though breach is actually quite resilient to surgical extraction). Maybe this is decent.

4 griselbrand
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
4 shallow grave
3 exhume
1 unburial rites
4 thoughtseize
4 faithless looting
4 underworld breach
2 burning wish
3 brain freeze
4 led
4 lotus petal
15 land (hand waving the mana for now)

4 reverent silence
1 exhume
1 reanimate
2 shenanigans
1 ancient grudge
1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
1 silent gravestone
1 collective brutality
1 gamble

[Jblinder]

I love me a good tin fins mashup, and we just got a new toy! Haven’t tried this yet. Yes, both halves are weak to the same interactions (though breach is actually quite resilient to surgical extraction). Maybe this is decent. Edit: It's not good, but it's pretty fun!

4 griselbrand
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
4 shallow grave
3 exhume
1 unburial rites
4 thoughtseize
4 faithless looting
4 underworld breach
2 burning wish
3 brain freeze
4 led
4 lotus petal
15 land (hand waving the mana for now)

4 reverent silence
1 exhume
1 reanimate
2 shenanigans
1 ancient grudge
1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
1 silent gravestone
1 collective brutality
1 gamble

[dameus]

Anybody splashing green for Veil of Summer?

[KIP_NZ]

Cross post from Reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/f0zxo8/super_weird_spot_with_tin_fins_gold_fish_data_to/

I played at General Games Malven here in Melbourne Australia yesterday, I had a blast catching up with people. This was the first time I’d played Legacy since November 2018 at GP Melbourne side event. I had two decks which are my own, Tin Fins and Lands. Lands is clearly a meta deck and benefits from knowing what the flex slots should be and also what you’re going to be playing against …. Both of which I did not know so Tin Fins it will be!

https://preview.redd.it/i6ra7iiwcsf41.png?width=1686&format=png&auto=webp&a4eca77a

In G2 of my round 4 camera match had a weird spot, I cast Defence Grid on 12 life facing double flipped delvers, the idea being able to pass the turn and entomb / shallow grave. Steve surgicals my brainstorms in response and then attacks me down too 6 as expected. I petal for the turn so now have island, swamp & grid in play and ritual / shallow / entomb / petal in hand.

I tap swamp, cast ritual and entomb. As I’m thumbing through my deck I come across emrakul and pause, shall I sweep the board? Or is Griselbrand better here? I went with Emrakul because stringing together a kill from 6 life with only 1 draw 7 is really hard in Tin Fins … or so I thought. I sweep the board, Steve recovers in 3 turns to cast pyromancer and then kills me on his 6th turn.

I got chatting to the guy I’m giving a ride too about it on the way home and said my deck top decks really badly so I wonder if I should have just gone for it and he said gold fish it.

With the help of the stream I was able to perfectly recreate the two positions. I decided on 15 of each (10 didn’t seem enough and 20 was going to take AGES).

At the time I said it was all about finding CoK but if you read below you’ll see there is a number of lines that played out completely differently as the deck has some really weird lines!

Summary:

Entomb for Griselbrand = 6 wins, 9 losses

Entomb for Emrakul = 4 wins, 3 likely wins and 8 losses

So on the balance I think Griselbrand is straight up better here because the wins are clear and obvious. One thing I did notice is the value of ponder’s goes WAY up when someone has surgicaled your brainstorms, I found myself shuffling super aggressively in this situation which i didn’t do on camera (I wasn’t yet under pressure).

Addendum: Realised I did my deck a disservice, my deck was called #InGriselbrandWeTrust on the damn list.... and I didn't trust him :(

Addendum2: Link to the match https://www.twitch.tv/videos/548494606?t=1h52m33s

Addendum3: My alters as the stream chatted about them a few times. My deck is non-foiled with FBB's not beta as incorrectly said in the stream https://i.imgur.com/oxgUSxh.jpg

----------------------------------------Data--------------------------------------------

https://preview.redd.it/715xse31dsf41.jpg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&104e8d16

GB 1 - SG / Grisel / ThoughtS / Scrub / Delta / Cabal / Ritual -> play scrub, flash back Cabal (name bolt), EoT shallow, pass turn on 6, EoT Steve RFG Grisel, draw petal, crack delta for sea, ritual, sac both petals, Cast Grisel, Win

GB 2 - CoK / Petal / Delta / Sea / Ponder / Grisel / Shallow -> cast & crack petal, CoK, gain 7, draw 7, Grisel / Shallow / Goryo’s / Rit / Rit / flooded / Goryo’s -> Crack petal, 2xrit, shallow grave, gain 14, draw 14, easy win from here with 2 in pool, another petal and ritual and a shallow in hand - Win

GB 3 - Sea / 2x Delta / Petal / Rit / Verdant / thought s -> Die

GB 4 - 2x Petal / Scrubland / Grisel / Collective Brutality / Verdant / Reanimate -> play 2 petals, play scrub, cast collective escalate 1, target delver -2/-2 and drain him for 2 / gain 2, flash back cabal naming bolt, reanimate delver, pass turn on 7, go to 4 to delver beats & Steve casts Young pyro, revel ritual to delver & transform, pass turn, Steve cracks with both, trade delvers and fall to 2, top deck shallow grave, grave Grisel, attack for 7 and draw 7, swamp / ritual / delta x2 / Goryo’s / ponder / entomb, petal ponder, find CoK and cast of scrub gain 14, draw 7, Goyro’s / Thoughtseize / Delta / entomb x2 / sea / cabal, draw 7 more, Cabal / Grisel / Shallow / petal / goryos / Echo’ing / strand, cast petal, play sea, 2x rituals off sea, shallow grave CoK, gain 28 entomb emrakul, library is 33 cards, 2 petal & 1 mana floating, draw 7 & find petal / shallow / ritual to go with the 3 entombs in hand….. easy win after gaining 50+ life

GB 5 - Delta / petal / Thought / cabal / Grisel / scrubland / reanimate -> Die

GB 6 - 2x Thought / 2x entomb / 3x lands -> die

GB 7 - Shallow / Ponder / Reanimate / Petal / Thought / Delta / Verdant -> island, ponder into Ponder / 2x lands, shuffle, draw sea -> Die … if I took the ponder and fetched for a sea & pondered again -> 2x lands & cabal, shuffle into Sea -> Die

GB 8 - Scrubland / Cabal / Goryo’s / Shallow / Flooded / Entomb / thought -> play scrub -> entomb CoK & sac petal to shallow grave, gain 7 draw 7 - petal / entomb Grisel / thought / delta / Grisel / ponder, play petal & fetch for sea from delta, sac GB to cabal naming bolt, EOT Goyro’s back Grisel & discard 2nd Grisel to hand size, Steve casts pyro and passes back exiling Grisel, draw delta, ponder into ritual / petal / thought & shuffle, delta off blind -> die

GB 9 - Goryo’s / delta / thought / ponder / echoing truth / verdant / collective, delta for swamp, echoing truth 2x delver, flashback cabal naming delver pass turn, Steve plays pyro go, untap & draw ritual, ponder Emrakul / Ritual / Scrubland, draw emrakul ritual into collective with escalate discarding emrakul killing pyro and 2 to Steve, trigger on stack Goryo’s back emrakul for win

GB 10 - Goryo’s / swamp / cabal / thought / ritual / ponder / sea -> Ponder Reanimate / Cabal / Shallow, shuffle and draw shallow off blind, swamp flash back cabal, & EoT Goryro’s off petal, Steve casts pyro go, exile GB, untap & draw ritual -> Die

GB 11 - Thought x2 / Swamp / petal / griselbrand / ritual / entomb -> Die

GB 12 - Entomb / scrub / sea / petal / Goryo’s / thought, Sea & petal, flash back cabal & EoT Goryo’s, Steve casts pyro and passes back, exile Grisel, untap & draw thought -> die

GB 13 - petal / delta / goryro’s / emrakul / delta / shallow / entomb, petal, delta crack for swamp and entomb CoK, crack petal and tap island for Shallow on CoK, gain / draw 7, Goryo’s / echoing / delta / petal / grisel / shallow / thought - play petal & crack 2x to echoing truth delvers, flashback cabal naming delver, discard delta to hand size, Steve plays pyro, wastes sea & passes, draw collected, vengeance, attack for 7 & draw 7, cabal / Grisel / thought / entomb / echoing / ponder / petal, play petal & fetch for sea to shallow grave back CoK, sac CoK and go to 11, EoT discard to hand size a GB and pass turn with 2x instant reanimation for next turn - Win!

GB 14 - Ponder / Reanimate / Thought / Dark Ritual / Lotus Petal / Thought / Goryo’s, Ponder 2x land / Cabal, shuffle into Goryo’s, play petal & flashback cabal, EoT Goryo’s GB, Steve casts pyro and passes back exiling Grisel, draw verdant - Die

GB 15 - Sea / echoing / Goryo’s / reanimate / shallow / grisel / thought - sea, echoing truth 2x delver, flashback cabal naming delver pass turn, Steve plays pyro go, draw verdant, Goryo’s back Grisel, attack for 7 & draw 7, flooded / entomb / sea / scrubland / grisel / CoK / petal, play petal and crack for CoK gain 7 & draw 7, petal / cabal / delta / entomb / Goryo’s / thought / Goryo’s, play petal & scrub, cast shallow off swamp & scrub for CoK, gain 14, draw 7, swamp / cabal / petal / delta x2 / though / ritual, crack petal ritual for reanimate on CoK, draw 7 more … draw another ritual for 4 mana & shallow grave to gain 28 life? … easy win

https://preview.redd.it/vwfpyk89dsf41.jpg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&420aad6b

I get 5 turns & 6 life before he kills me

Emrakul line - / = card drawn new turn

Emrakul GF1 - Flooded / Cabal / Collective, collective + escalate to kill pyro and gain 2, petal / sea / ritual / echoing truth / cabal / flooded / grisel = almost for sure die

Emrakul GF2 - Grisel / Reanimate / Ritual / Vengeance / cabal, ritual, cabal myself for grisel, attack for win

Emrakul GF3 - Goryo’s / ponder, ponder into (shallow, delta, ritual) , shuffle, thought off the blind, cabal / echoing, bounce pyro and cabal it saving petal, sea, collective / cabal / entomb entomb Grisel, Goryo’s back and attack for win

Emrakul GF4 - petal / verdant / Goryo’s / shallow / Tundra - Die

Emrakul GF5 - Petal / Sea / Goryo’s / Ponder, ponder into ( Delta, CoK, Cabal), shuffle sea, swamp - Die

Emrakul GF6 - Ritual / Swamp / Petal / Delta / Entomb - Die

Emrakul GF7 - Goryo’s / grid, play it / delta / entomb - win

Emrakul GF8 - Verdant / ritual / tundra / ritual / CoK, sac petal for CoK, entomb / delta / Goryo’s - likely win cause CoK would block the pyro

Emrakul GF9 - Entomb / verdant / grid, play grid, sea / ponder, play ponder (thought, shallow, delta) shuffle into thought - die

Emrakul GF10 - Entomb / Entomb / goyro’s - win

Emrakul GF11 - Sea / Delta / delta / ponder, ponder into (Entomb, ponder, sea) draw entomb, draw & cast ponder (sea, flooded, cabal) shuffle, draw scrub off blind - Die

Emrakul GF12 - Tundra / grid, play grid, ponder, play ponder (Entomb, ritual, cabal) draw entomb, cast it to find Grisel, draw sea / draw entomb - die

Emrakul GF13 - Scrub / delta / delta / shallow / petal - die

Emrakul GF14 - Echoing / cabal / shallow, cast echoing + cabal his pyro sacaing petal, delta (play), Goryo’s / petal / grisel / ponder, cast (reanimate, cabal, sea) draw reanimate, reanimate his delver fall to 5 & transform it off the cabal, likely win

Emrakul GF15 - petal / delta / reanimate, cast reanimate on his delver, check & draw grisel, check and draw flooded, check, transform and draw shallow, attack for 3

Was post board on the play, -4 unmask +2 Echoing +2 defense grid

#InGriselbrandWeTrust
//Plate spinners
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

//The “Go baby!” Button
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

//The Rack (the beginning of the end)
1 Reanimate
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo’s Vengeance

//Pain
3 Our lord and Saviour “Griselbrand”
1 The flying spaghetti monster herself “Emrakul, the Aeons Torn”
1 lambs to the slaughter the “Children of Korlis”

//Suffering
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtsezie
4 Unmask
1 Collective Brutality

//Spell casters the slow way
1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacomb
2 Flooded strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
//Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Fatal Push
2 Echoing Truth
3 Serenity
2 Massacre
2 Defence Grid
2 Jace, Vyrn’s Prodigy

[Daize]

This deck seems pretty popular nowadays on MTGO, EW Landon playing it as well instead of regular BR Reanimator. Pretty surprised to find this thread on page 3. What's its weak spots in the current meta anyhoo?

[Richard Cheese]

This deck seems pretty popular nowadays on MTGO, EW Landon playing it as well instead of regular BR Reanimator. Pretty surprised to find this thread on page 3. What's its weak spots in the current meta anyhoo?

Main weaknesses:

Adult beverages
ADHD
General disinterest in Legacy and MtG as a whole
Fatty meats

[walked]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/iye18b/tin_fins_back_in_action_primer_and_sideboard_guide/

Deck is reasonable right now.
81 tracked matches (LOT more played on this build; only recently started tracking with some rigor); 69.14% winrate right now (leagues/premier events only)

[Jblinder]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/iye18b/tin_fins_back_in_action_primer_and_sideboard_guide/

Deck is reasonable right now.
81 tracked matches (LOT more played on this build; only recently started tracking with some rigor); 69.14% winrate right now (leagues/premier events only)

What about 1 collective brutality maindeck? Maybe for one of the dazes? Allows you to do an emrakul loop to kill the opponent vs something like an ensnaring bridge. Those situations may be corner cases, but collective brutality isn’t an embarrassing card in its own right either.