[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[DavidHernandez]

All these great reports, making me want to start running this bad boy again. FWIW, I've stuck to the 13 land/2 mox configuration and have been pretty happy with that when going off. I don't feel like I get screwed any harder than when running 14 lands, although I haven't been keeping stats so I could be completely talking out of my ass. Regardless, congrats to all of you guys for the great finishes.
I think that particular mana configuration works for you because you're better with the deck than I am. You know when to keep and when to mull, and when you mull, you know what to keep again. I'm still figuring that out.

I think that makes a huge difference in how the deck runs. For now, with my level of experience with it, I keep finding myself in situations where I don't have enough land in my opening hand or first mulligan to play the deck to a win.

You'll note I've gone to 15 land(!), a Mox Diamond, and a Chrome Mox. I LOVE the Diamond. So far in test runs I am not forced to mulligan, and I'm seeing turn 2 kills regularly. I'll test it tonight at the tournament. Hopefully we'll have 5 rounds so I can give a good accounting. We never cut to top 8 (which is horrible because the top two always split and ruin everyone else's changes of winning).

Dave

[Koby]

My impression about the mana base is that against metagame without a saturation of Wastelands and Stifle, 13 lands would e sufficient (albeit, on the lighter side). The decision to bump up to 14 was to combat potential Wastelands, Dazes, and Stifles.

In construction, it's intended to more or less mirror TES from a mana base/accelerants stand point. This is purposefully done to obtain a higher percentage of Turn 1 & 2 kills. Mulligan decisions are a prerequisite requirement of the early game kills. (well, and being lucky to have Entomb and Dark Ritual :P)

[DavidHernandez]

]Mulligan decisions are a prerequisite requirement of the early game kills. (well, and being lucky to have Entomb and Dark Ritual :P)
Yes! I agree. Also, Swamp/Entomb/Dark Rit/Goryo's in the opening hand is awesome...

[Koby]

I do however, concede that most configurations will work upto 15 lands. They trade the explosive/glass cannon approach for more consistent mana. I suspect, but have not been able to empirical test, that the higher land counts will have a slightly higher fizzle rate due to dead draws. If the Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal count is not reduced, I don't think it will make much of an impact if you draw <land> or <Ponder>; so maybe I'm just bullshitting. Something to think about...

[cogitoergosum]

If we are running 15 lands, I like the mox diamond idea. At 14, I think I would prefer a second chrome mox, especially if we are playing 2 LDV. But the land configuration as is has worked very well for me.

[Richard Cheese]

I think that particular mana configuration works for you because you're better with the deck than I am.

That is the funniest thing I've read all week! I'm a terrible combo player because I tend to have zero patience and just go all in...maybe that's why 13 lands works out for me. Also I still run one basic Island. I just felt like I wasn't having as much trouble going off as I was hitting Tendrils mana afterwards. Also, more often than not I've already played my land for the turn by the time I get Grizzlebees in play, so every land drawn off him is garbage. It seems to me that a lot of combo guys loathe Chrome Mox, but it really hasn't bothered me that much.

[DavidHernandez]

That is the funniest thing I've read all week! I'm a terrible combo player because I tend to have zero patience and just go all in...maybe that's why 13 lands works out for me. Also I still run one basic Island. I just felt like I wasn't having as much trouble going off as I was hitting Tendrils mana afterwards. Also, more often than not I've already played my land for the turn by the time I get Grizzlebees in play, so every land drawn off him is garbage. It seems to me that a lot of combo guys loathe Chrome Mox, but it really hasn't bothered me that much.

No, seriously, I think I use extra lands as a crutch because I don't mulligan properly. Or I don't keep hands that I should...because I don't recognize there's a winning combo coming.

Last night I was VERY happy with my deck build, but I lost two matches and took myself out of the running because I'm stupid. I had Daze in hand and a tapped Island. Opponent taps out to swords griselbrand. I don't daze. Really?? I didn't even see that I had the Underground in play. Stupid. Then, another match I Dazed a spell I should have let resolve, and the next turn the dude went off. Stupid.

I'm my worst enemy.

But I'm learning, and the deck is strong. I'm getting better with it. Hopefully in this case I CAN fix stupid.

[Richard Cheese]

No, seriously, I think I use extra lands as a crutch because I don't mulligan properly. Or I don't keep hands that I should...because I don't recognize there's a winning combo coming. Or I mull hands I should keep.

Last night I was VERY happy with my deck build, but I lost two matches and took myself out of the running because I'm stupid. I had Daze in hand and a tapped Island. Opponent taps out to swords griselbrand. I don't daze. Really?? I didn't even see that I had the Underground in play. Stupid. Then, another match I Dazed a spell I should have let resolve, and the next turn the dude went off. Stupid.

I'm my worst enemy.

But I'm learning, and the deck is strong. I'm getting better with it. Hopefully in this case I CAN fix stupid.

You may have some of my other problem with combo: I get nervous playing it for no reason. I miss shit all the time because I get all tweaked out, even if it's an 8-man with a bunch of guys I see every week. I honestly need to play this and maybe TES some more to get over that.

[DavidHernandez]

You may have some of my other problem with combo: I get nervous playing it for no reason. I miss shit all the time because I get all tweaked out, even if it's an 8-man with a bunch of guys I see every week. I honestly need to play this and maybe TES some more to get over that.

That's a good point. I used to play slow UW Miracle decks, then Death and Taxes. I have the pieces for ANT and will practice with Tin Fins and ANT. Good observation by you. I'll take that suggestion and get comfortable with combo.

Thanks.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I very ooccasionally miss something but I have a strong background of storm-based combo predating the banning of mystical. I am currently becoming more and more irritated by a lack of options for more entomb effects. Dammit all.

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[cogitoergosum]

I sometimes forget, mid combo with emrakul in hand, that I can entomb and reanimated children-it just takes a sec to remeber lol.

On another note, at least in my meta I think this deck is very well positioned. We are faster than other combos, and I, at least, am overrun with non blue midrange dark depths decks.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Whoa. Doo eet.

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[Mindlash]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tin-fins-05-03-13-1/

Currently in bed, so here's a quick link.

I talked about sideboards on page 70 or 71 IIRC. It was a long post, with another post nearby talking about various hate people bring in for us.

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I like this list so far. Seems to be pretty consistent.

How would you board against Maverick, Patriot and Elves with it?

Greetings Chris

[Acclimation]

I like this list so far. Seems to be pretty consistent.

How would you board against Maverick, Patriot and Elves with it?

Greetings Chris

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=778798&viewfull=1#post778798


UWR blade: -1 Reanimate -4 Probe -1 Ponder -1 LDV
+2 Silence +3 Chain +2 Massacre

Death and Taxes: +2 Needle +2 Chain +2 Massacre
-2 LDV -4 Probe -1 Reanimate

(Death and Taxes and Maverick attack along the same angles and the cards we care about are the same, so I just use the plan for D&T)

Elves I usually just board out the Swamp and go balls to the wall since I'm faster than they are, but you could also bring in both Massacre. They have DRS, and some discard against us, but that's usually it. MAYBE Relic, but I've never seen it.

For all you guys making small misplays and getting nervous while playing- just be ballsy. If you play fearlessly, your opponent will be afraid of you. The more you do it, the easier it becomes, trust me.

Then again, I played DDFT for a year before picking up the deck, so this was a large step down in difficulty for me (still has a lot of hard decisions and I occasionally mess up).

[Mindlash]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=778798&viewfull=1#post778798


UWR blade: -1 Reanimate -4 Probe -1 Ponder -1 LDV
+2 Silence +3 Chain +2 Massacre

Death and Taxes: +2 Needle +2 Chain +2 Massacre
-2 LDV -4 Probe -1 Reanimate

(Death and Taxes and Maverick attack along the same angles and the cards we care about are the same, so I just use the plan for D&T)

Elves I usually just board out the Swamp and go balls to the wall since I'm faster than they are, but you could also bring in both Massacre. They have DRS, and some discard against us, but that's usually it. MAYBE Relic, but I've never seen it.

For all you guys making small misplays and getting nervous while playing- just be ballsy. If you play fearlessly, your opponent will be afraid of you. The more you do it, the easier it becomes, trust me.

Then again, I played DDFT for a year before picking up the deck, so this was a large step down in difficulty for me (still has a lot of hard decisions and I occasionally mess up).

I should learn to read more carefully. I saw your plan against UWR Blade in an earlier post but thought of some old Punishing Fire Stoneblade build for whatever reason :)

Since I use the same plan for Maverick and Death and Taxes in my ANT build too I should have been able to answer most of my questions myself :)

But thanks for your reply.

I guess you bring in and out the same cards against Team America / BUG Delver as you do against Shardless BUG and Jund due to Deathrite Shaman, Nihil Spellbomb and occasional permanent hate?

Greetings Chris

[Koby]

I guess you bring in and out the same cards against Team America / BUG Delver as you do against Shardless BUG and Jund due to Deathrite Shaman, Nihil Spellbomb and occasional permanent hate?

Greetings Chris

Correct - the Chain of Vapor handles many of the existing problems. Silence loses its efficiency against BUG builds due to their discard + counters. Alongside with DRS, they attack us from all three angles. This makes it a difficult (but not unwinnable) match.

[Jon]

This weekend I took TinFins to the SCG Atlanta event, I wasnt planning on playing but I was offered the deck and couldn't say no. The list is the general Koby list with the addition of +2 Echoing Truth ( Should have been Hoodwink / -2 Chain on board. Here are my matches in order Sneak and Show (Win), U/W Stoneblade (Win), Goblins (Loss), Elves (Win), Shardless Value (Win), Mono Red Sneak (Loss), U/R Delver Burn (Loss), Elves (Loss), Murica Delver (Loss).

RD1, Very nice guy from TN who I have played multiple events with. He leads Volc -> Ponder -> Probe, I show him my hand witch has Griselbrand with no other gas/ Info. Eventually I grind him out with Thoughtseize / Therapy and Combo kill.
G2 he mulls to 5, I keep a nuts hand and when he hits 4 mana I silence him, he spell pierces and passes. I cantrip a few times, then he casts a S&T and Griselbrand hits the table for me and then I win.

RD2, Chinese Student from Emory, very little English but an amazingly nice and talented player, Han was his name.
G1, Probe to see Thalia x2, Revoker, SFM, TNN, Tundra, Gate, Clique. Therapy Thalia, combo kill on T2
G2, He T1 Karakas into Tutor for Cannonist, I pack it up and move to SB.
G3, T1 Probe Therapy away a Humility, cantrip a few turns and Griselbrand and hardcast Emrakul

RD3, New to legacy player, on Goblins.
G1, Mesa into Lacky, pass, played Swamp, Ritual, Entomb, Shallow Grave so fast and kill him after I looped Emrakul a few times.
G2, T1 Relic into T2 Thalia, I kept a reasonable hand to deal with those threats but my mana was taxed.
G3, Thoughtseize Relic, He rips relic T1 and casts it, Rips Thalia, WL and Port get me.

RD4, Jeff, Elves, Said something about fun and interactive magic.
G1, T1 Storm Kill
G2, T1 DRS into T3 Hoof
G3, T1 DRS but doesnt draw mana, Taps DRS to cast GSZ for DA so he can cast scooze next turn with mana. I killed him though.

RD5, Local friend Mike who is on Shardless BUG, we both know what we are on, so we have a very friendly casual game of magic.
G1 I got the T1 kill.
G2 He T1 DRS and I ponder into Rit for the T1.

RD6 Local who is on Mono Red Sneak Attack, Same deck I played in GPDC to a lifetilt.
G1 No notes, I T1'd him.
G2 No notes, He T3'd me.
G3 Chalice on 1, Chalice on 2, Sneak Attack + Griselbrand , Worldspine, and Blightsteel
I made the whole table laugh with my comment "SO This is how it feels to be on the otherside"

RD7 Played Andrew Schnider, Local friend and UR Delver Patron
Quick 2 losses, we played the night before so he knew what I was on, knew how to interact, so I was okay losing to my friend.

RD8 Hayden on Elves
G1, T1 DRS, I snap off the Rit, Entomb, Grave for GB and show him my hand and he concedes.
G2 / G3 Were both Double DRS / Therapy / Thoughtseize games, I had no hand.

RD8, Tired, Wanted Food, No top 64, Derp

I really still love the deck and hopefully have the oppertunity to play it at GPNJ this year.

[Acclimation]

RD3, New to legacy player, on Goblins.
G1, Mesa into Lacky, pass, played Swamp, Ritual, Entomb, Shallow Grave so fast and kill him after I looped Emrakul a few times.
G2, T1 Relic into T2 Thalia, I kept a reasonable hand to deal with those threats but my mana was taxed.
G3, Thoughtseize Relic, He rips relic T1 and casts it, Rips Thalia, WL and Port get me.



I think it's a rite of passage to lose to Goblins.

Seriously, I've lost against that deck more than I care to admit to as combo.


Good effort though, keep practicing and you'll be in good shape!

[.dk]

Losing to goblins is soooo demoralizing. :( i feel your pain! I lost to goblins in a GPT with Tin Fins right before GP Denver to an Earwig Squad. Twice. Sometimes they just get you. :)

[Jon]

Losing to goblins is soooo demoralizing. :( i feel your pain! I lost to goblins in a GPT with Tin Fins right before GP Denver to an Earwig Squad. Twice. Sometimes they just get you. :)

Yeah I had to walk outside and get air. Its really stressful to lose to a match that feels like 90/10.

I will play TinFins again when the time comes (When my friend gives it to me) but for now back to the Belcher / SI / Doomsday side of the world!

[Mindlash]

Yeah I had to walk outside and get air. Its really stressful to lose to a match that feels like 90/10.

I will play TinFins again when the time comes (When my friend gives it to me) but for now back to the Belcher / SI / Doomsday side of the world!

I like "unfair" people :)

Most of my friends are "unfair" too. There is only one guy from us who plays decks like Jund, Maverick, RUG and so on (but of course he owns Dredge and Belcher too :-P) so he has to take the beatings most oft the time.

My cardpool consists mainly of TES, ANT, Tinfins, Dredge (LED and Manaless), Belcher and about 90% of the cards required for SI and Doomsday.

ANT is my long time favorite though and Tinfins my newest addition (got pursuaded by some of my friends: "let us all build Tinfins and terrorize people" "well...uhm...ok!").

I struggled with some inconsistency issues at first, but Koby's and Acclimation's decklist really worked out well in testing so far. So I guess there will be some Griselbrand at BoM Annecy (at least in the trials for me).

Greetings Chris

[Koby]

I struggled with some inconsistency issues at first, but Koby's and Acclimation's decklist really worked out well in testing so far. So I guess there will be some Griselbrand at BoM Annecy (at least in the trials for me).

Greetings Chris

That is quite encouraging. Thanks for believing in the list. For a long while I thought it must be a pilot inclination, then Logan had a ton of success (and continues to, even with a few discouraging X-2/X-3 finishes). I think the secret lies in understanding the timing of Shallow Grave, and correct sequencing of bait spells. There are certainly weaknesses in the list, especially the mana, but I think the core combo + heavy cantrip route makes this list a powerhouse.

I mean, if it mostly works for ANT and TES, then why wouldn't it work for Tin Fins too? :laugh:

[Acclimation]

That is quite encouraging. Thanks for believing in the list. For a long while I thought it must be a pilot inclination, then Logan had a ton of success (and continues to, even with a few discouraging X-2/X-3 finishes). I think the secret lies in understanding the timing of Shallow Grave, and correct sequencing of bait spells. There are certainly weaknesses in the list, especially the mana, but I think the core combo + heavy cantrip route makes this list a powerhouse.

I mean, if it mostly works for ANT and TES, then why wouldn't it work for Tin Fins too? :laugh:

Discouraging?

HA! Those "poor" finishes give me encouragement to do better.

All of those points are correct though. Once we get the mana configuration optimized, the deck will be ANT level good.

Should we have a Tinfins summit/workshop in the future?

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[.dk]

Should we have a Tinfins summit/workshop in the future?


Yes please!

[Secretly.A.Bee]

How much do you guys really like the reanimate? Is it something you prefer to keep?

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[Acclimation]

How much do you guys really like the reanimate? Is it something you prefer to keep?

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I personally like the reanimate, since it lets us have some interesting lines of play.

I've had games in which I've Reanimated Griselbrand on t1 and played like reanimator. It lets us get Children into play (again) for 1 mana and counts towards the life loss for its ability.

If it is taking up any particular slot, it would be the 4th Goryo, and I feel like the above reasons more than make up for the fact that we can't reanimate Emrakul with Reanimate, nor the fact that it gives whatever we Reanimate haste.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Indeed, I have been playing with the 4th Vengeance for a while now. It does put me more "all in" obviously. Maybe I will try it, I just hate losing all that life without getting a new full grip.

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[.dk]

I prefer Reanimate to the 4th Goryo's Vengeance for a variety of reasons, but namely because Vengeance can't reanimate children of korlis. Reanimate has lots of other utility (nabbing your opponents creatures from their graveyard after you've discarded them is always a great feeling) as well, but really it comes down to being able to make Children. If you've spent your shallow grave on Griselbrand already, having 4 cards left that can reanimate Children is worth it in my opinion.

It's a similar reason why I prefer the 1st Mox Diamond to the 2nd Chrome Mox - I just want another Lotus petal. If I could run 6 Lotus Petals I would.

[DavidHernandez]

I prefer Reanimate to the 4th Goryo's Vengeance for a variety of reasons, but namely because Vengeance can't reanimate children of korlis. Reanimate has lots of other utility (nabbing your opponents creatures from their graveyard after you've discarded them is always a great feeling) as well, but really it comes down to being able to make Children. If you've spent your shallow grave on Griselbrand already, having 4 cards left that can reanimate Children is worth it in my opinion.

It's a similar reason why I prefer the 1st Mox Diamond to the 2nd Chrome Mox - I just want another Lotus petal. If I could run 6 Lotus Petals I would.
^^ +1 on both paragraphs!

[Acclimation]

I feel like one of these days, I should make some Tinfins vs the World videos.

I feel that sometimes it's easier to see a deck play against certain match-ups, as well with commentary to explain decisions than it is to explain it via text in theoretical situations.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yes. Play against the Delver triple threat (RUG, BUG, Patriot) and esper death and stoneblade. That basically sums up "the world" currently, anyway.

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[Acclimation]

Yes. Play against the Delver triple threat (RUG, BUG, Patriot) and esper death and stoneblade. That basically sums up "the world" currently, anyway.

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How about I jam 10 games against Jund so we can watch my friend get pissed at how good at Cabal Therapy I am?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hahaha yes. That will show him. Will he stick around for 10 games? If I were to play Jund, I wouldn't...

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[cogitoergosum]

Went 2-1 at a local tonight, losing in the championship round. Unfortunately, fewer people showed up than usual so it was 3 rounds instead of 4+. I played 2 games on camera, so I'll link that if anyone wants to watch me play poorly. I didn't get much sleep last night, so I made a few foolish moves (I was flustered trying to combo out one game and tried to flashback cabal therapy from my hand lol). Here is the link: http://www.twitch.tv/meadhallgames

I ran the standard list, 4-3 cabal/ seize split, 2 LDV, 14 lands, 1 mox.

Round 1: Beat U/W Stoneblade 2-0.
Game 1 I go off t1 for a storm win.
Game 2, I was at 5 life facing down a meddling mage and stoneforge mystic. I swing, draw 7, and set up an emrakul win next turn with protection. I stripped his hand earlier of rest in piece and spell pierce.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 LDV, -1 reanimate, +4 silence, +3 CoV (I thought about massacre but decided against it)

Round 2: 2-0 vs Lands (on camera)
Game 1 I go off again t1, but get flustered trying to get to 10 storm (I was at 8 with 5 mana and tendrils in hand). This was my cabal therapy play, but I used 1 mana to get to 9 storm, tendrils win.
Game two he mulls to 4 I mull to 6. Neither of us draw anything for like 10 turns (i had a goryos in the opening grip, and some discard). Eventually, I get the entomb and it is game over with a emrakul and griselbrand swing.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 ponder, -1 LDV, -1 Reanimate +3 CoV, +2 pithing needle, +2 serenity

Round 3: Loss 0-2 to Merfolk (on camera)
Game 1 he plays cursecatcher and passes. I play a land, lotus petal, and mox on blue. I knew his hand from a g probe. End of his turn i spend 4 life with LDV finding the entomb. My turn I go off t2, draw 14 cards (I was at 14 life so had to GB swing). I am one mana short of getting COK. I set up a win for next turn, but forget he has a mutavault while I am at 2 life.
Game 2-I mull to 6, keeping a lose hand with cabal and GB, mana sources. In hindsight, maybe I mull there. I cabal him a couple times (I drew another) and sacced COK to cabal myself. Meanwhile he had a t1 relic of progentitus in play. I pretty much know I'm done, I cabal myself, his turn he removes my graveyard. Game over. Even though he had a FOW in hand as I found out, I had 2 shallow graves in hand, and should have waited a turn to see if I got another mana source/ dark rit to be able to double cast shallow graves.
Sideboarded: -4 probe, -1 reanimate, -1 LDV, +4 silence, +2 chain of vapor

All in all I was running hot, and I think I just got unlucky with the fizzle against Merfolk. Otherwise, we would have had an interesting Game 3.

Until next time, keep drawing multiples of 7 :)

[Acclimation]

Hahaha yes. That will show him. Will he stick around for 10 games? If I were to play Jund, I wouldn't...

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Ofc he will. We play that match-up all the time. And I win 9/10 games.

I also can read him like a book and haven't missed a Therapy against him in months.

I need to make this happen so we can have a chuckle at the profanity laced, 2 Chainz referencing games we have.


Went 2-1 at a local tonight, losing in the championship round. Unfortunately, fewer people showed up than usual so it was 3 rounds instead of 4+. I played 2 games on camera, so I'll link that if anyone wants to watch me play poorly. I didn't get much sleep last night, so I made a few foolish moves (I was flustered trying to combo out one game and tried to flashback Cabal Therapy from my hand lol). Here is the link: http://www.twitch.tv/meadhallgames

I ran the standard list, 4-3 cabal/ seize split, 2 LDV, 14 lands, 1 mox.

Round 1: Beat U/W Stoneblade 2-0.
Game 1 I go off t1 for a storm win.
Game 2, I was at 5 life facing down a Meddling Mage and Stoneforge Mystic. I swing, draw 7, and set up an emrakul win next turn with protection. I stripped his hand earlier of rest in piece and Spell Pierce.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 LDV, -1 reanimate, +4 silence, +3 CoV (I thought about massacre but decided against it)

Round 2: 2-0 vs Lands (on camera)
Game 1 I go off again t1, but get flustered trying to get to 10 storm (I was at 8 with 5 mana and tendrils in hand). This was my Cabal Therapy play, but I used 1 mana to get to 9 storm, tendrils win.
Game two he mulls to 4 I mull to 6. Neither of us draw anything for like 10 turns (i had a goryos in the opening grip, and some discard). Eventually, I get the entomb and it is game over with a emrakul and griselbrand swing.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 ponder, -1 LDV, -1 Reanimate +3 CoV, +2 Pithing Needle, +2 serenity

Round 3: Loss 0-2 to Merfolk (on camera)
Game 1 he plays cursecatcher and passes. I play a land, Lotus Petal, and mox on blue. I knew his hand from a g probe. End of his turn i spend 4 life with LDV finding the entomb. My turn I go off t2, draw 14 cards (I was at 14 life so had to GB swing). I am one Mana Short of getting COK. I set up a win for next turn, but forget he has a mutavault while I am at 2 life.
Game 2-I mull to 6, keeping a lose hand with cabal and GB, mana sources. In hindsight, maybe I mull there. I cabal him a couple times (I drew another) and sacced COK to cabal myself. Meanwhile he had a t1 relic of progentitus in play. I pretty much know I'm done, I cabal myself, his turn he removes my graveyard. Game over. Even though he had a FOW in hand as I found out, I had 2 Shallow Grave in hand, and should have waited a turn to see if I got another mana source/ dark rit to be able to double cast Shallow Grave.
Sideboarded: -4 probe, -1 reanimate, -1 LDV, +4 silence, +2 Chain of Vapor

All in all I was running hot, and I think I just got unlucky with the fizzle against Merfolk. Otherwise, we would have had an interesting Game 3.

Until next time, keep drawing multiples of 7 :)

Good report. Sometimes you just get unlucky when it counts.

[cogitoergosum]

I want to add that it seems like I get mana flooded more than I get mana screwed (maybe I just have bad luck). So, I want to go back to testing the 13 lands, and either 2 chrome mox, or 1 chrome and 1 diamond.

[DavidHernandez]

I want to add that it seems like I get mana flooded more than I get mana screwed (maybe I just have bad luck). So, I want to go back to testing the 13 lands, and either 2 chrome mox, or 1 chrome and 1 diamond.
With 15 land, I never get screwed now. I'd like to ask you to test the diamond so we get more data, but with only 13 lands it may hurt you to play it. Have you tried 14 lands, 1 chrome Mox, one Mox diamond?

[Mindlash]

Discouraging?

HA! Those "poor" finishes give me encouragement to do better.

All of those points are correct though. Once we get the mana configuration optimized, the deck will be ANT level good.

Should we have a Tinfins summit/workshop in the future?

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What is the problem with the current mana configuration?

Comparing it with the ANT manabase:

ANT:
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Tin-Fins:
1 Scrubland
1 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

We play a similar mana configuration. Same quantity of duals and fetchlands, exchanging the second basic with a Chrome Mox, while using a similar cantrip suite.

It worked out very well so far.

While we are at it: Whats with Preordain instead of Lim-Dûl's Vault? I do not like the 2 cmc of the latter, but it will always dig you the missing parts. I learned to love Preordain, while playing ANT. But I guess it digs not deep enough in Tin-Fins, so it will slow us down and require addional cantripping. Anyone has done some testing here?


That is quite encouraging. Thanks for believing in the list. For a long while I thought it must be a pilot inclination, then Logan had a ton of success (and continues to, even with a few discouraging X-2/X-3 finishes). I think the secret lies in understanding the timing of Shallow Grave, and correct sequencing of bait spells. There are certainly weaknesses in the list, especially the mana, but I think the core combo + heavy cantrip route makes this list a powerhouse.

I mean, if it mostly works for ANT and TES, then why wouldn't it work for Tin Fins too?

You are welcome.

This deck in general is lots of fun to play and I like this decklist alot.

Can't wait to bring it to the battlefield. Sadly there are not many events where I live. Hope for an Infinite Trial Package at BoM 9 :)

Greetings Chris

[Acclimation]

What is the problem with the current mana configuration?

<there were words here>

We play a similar mana configuration. Same quantity of duals and fetchlands, exchanging the second basic with a Chrome Mox, while using a similar cantrip suite.

It worked out very well so far.

While we are at it: Whats with Preordain instead of Lim-Dûl's Vault? I do not like the 2 cmc of the latter, but it will always dig you the missing parts. I learned to love Preordain, while playing ANT. But I guess it digs not deep enough in Tin-Fins, so it will slow us down and require addional cantripping. Anyone has done some testing here?


The actual mana base itself is great, 14 is the sweet spot, with 13 being correct if you are in a combo heavy meta. The mana issues that we are having are from needing a non land mana source to continue comboing. We have 4 Petal and 1 Mox, which are great most of the time, but I've sometimes lost games or had games go on longer due to not drawing 1 or more of those. It's something that comes up often enough that the majority of us feel the need to address it, but we've made 0 progress lately due to a lack of tournaments and/or testing on the people running the same list.

The problem is, is that to add something we need to cut something, and if we have too much mana, we risk losing out on something else, whether it be protection, business or cantrips. We're strapped for business, cutting cantrips isn't ideal, and our protection helps us to bin creatures if necessary. I'm thinking that with the current set up, we could cut the 3rd Thoughtseize for a Mox Diamond, FWIW, but can't do any testing due to having no Diamonds nor a play group in my area.

Which brings me to your next point, why LDV over Preordain? Simply put, we are often bottlenecked by Entomb and LDV helps us find Entomb, as well as any other card that we might need.

Sometimes it's correct to t2 LDV to set up for a t3 kill. Sometimes LDV gets imprinted. Sometimes it's irrelevant. Sometimes it helps us dig in the late game. It's a versatile card that goes deep and finds us the combination we need to win. Preordain just digs, and the scry is weak in a shuffle heavy deck such as this. Vault does a lot of heavy lifting when needed, whereas Preordain is weak.

[Mindlash]

The actual mana base itself is great, 14 is the sweet spot, with 13 being correct if you are in a combo heavy meta. The mana issues that we are having are from needing a non land mana source to continue comboing. We have 4 Petal and 1 Mox, which are great most of the time, but I've sometimes lost games or had games go on longer due to not drawing 1 or more of those. It's something that comes up often enough that the majority of us feel the need to address it, but we've made 0 progress lately due to a lack of tournaments and/or testing on the people running the same list.

The problem is, is that to add something we need to cut something, and if we have too much mana, we risk losing out on something else, whether it be protection, business or cantrips. We're strapped for business, cutting cantrips isn't ideal, and our protection helps us to bin creatures if necessary. I'm thinking that with the current set up, we could cut the 3rd Thoughtseize for a Mox Diamond, FWIW, but can't do any testing due to having no Diamonds nor a play group in my area.

Which brings me to your next point, why LDV over Preordain? Simply put, we are often bottlenecked by Entomb and LDV helps us find Entomb, as well as any other card that we might need.

Sometimes it's correct to t2 LDV to set up for a t3 kill. Sometimes LDV gets imprinted. Sometimes it's irrelevant. Sometimes it helps us dig in the late game. It's a versatile card that goes deep and finds us the combination we need to win. Preordain just digs, and the scry is weak in a shuffle heavy deck such as this. Vault does a lot of heavy lifting when needed, whereas Preordain is weak.

The LDV vs Preordain explanation makes sense.

Why Mox Diamond over a second Chrome Mox? Chrome Mox has a lot more "targets", but after comboing out it doesn't really matter I guess. Mox Diamond can "hardcast" CoK in the combo turn though.

Is it possible to cut a land for a mox? Or is it to much stress on the manabase due to all these tempo decks around? I think 15 permanent mana sources is about the right number and the number of moxes in it makes you better or worse before the combo and in the combo.

Greetings Chris

[.dk]

Personally, I like the 1st Mox Diamond over the 2nd Chrome Mox mainly due to pre-combo issues with Chrome Mox. I usually find that I rarely have dead cards in my hand, and I hate pitching cards that I want either as disruption or combo pieces (looking at you specifically Therapy/Thoughtseize) to yet ANOTHER Chrome Mox to make more mana. Mox Diamond is a more versatile mana piece, but has a slimmer selection of cards to pitch to it... however if I'm pitching 1 land for another mana source, then I don't feel as bad as needing to pitch disruption or business. The deck can function off of very few lands in play, so trading a land for a mox diamond doesn't seem to bad. Furthermore, Mox Diamond can't be wastelanded and can cast every spell in the deck, including Children.

The reason why I like the 1st Chrome Mox over the 1st Mox Diamond really just comes down to the amount of cards in the deck to pitch to them. Chrome Mox can actually do something pre-combo more often than Mox Diamond.

But, YMMV, and I can see why my argument for the 1st Chrome Mox can apply to the second one as well too. Test and find out your own preference. :)

[Koby]

Chrome Mox is already the worst card to draw prior to going off with Griselbrand. Adding Mox Diamond increases the amount of useless draws. While flooding with lands is basically the same thing, and Brainstorm is a helluva card to help alleviate those situations, it sucks when you need the permanent mana source of a land and instead topdeck a Mox. I'm ambivalent to the first Mox, but the second makes the odds that much higher of missing something useful instead.

Consider the odds of drawing in your opening hand a singleton in your deck is 11.67%. Roughly 1 in 9 games, you will fan open a hand containing Chrome Mox. Bumping up to 2 Mox increases that odds to 20.96%, or 1 in 5 games. Roughly translated to matches, that's 1 in 4 matches for running 1 Mox, and once in every other match with 2 Mox. Sometimes you'll win because you have the access to additional fast mana. Other times, you won't be able to play the Mox and it will be a dead card. It's hard to quantify just how useful Mox is outside the combo phase.

Either and both Moxen are useful cards once you've got Griselbrand in play. There's no denying that. The question thus becomes, how much of a nuisance are Moxen prior to Griselbrand?

[.dk]

Either and both Moxen are useful cards once you've got Griselbrand in play. There's no denying that. The question thus becomes, how much of a nuisance are Moxen prior to Griselbrand?

And, what is the right balance between nuisance pre-combo, and a lower percentage of fizzling mid-combo. I guess you summarized my post in terms of nuisance - if I were to run 2 moxen (which I honestly have no idea - haven't sleeved the deck up in a long while), I have found (anecdotal) the split to be less of a nuisance than 2 Chrome Mox.

[Acclimation]

Stupid phone app not posting my message.

Anyway, I've been noticing more that I need that 1 extra non land mana source to continue comboing off, and 5 artifact mana sources aren't cutting it. Adding a 6th will help that problem, but are the gains worth any potential losses pre combo?

I have no testing one way or another due to a lack of play group, and while we can theory craft the numbers, some actual testing should be done. I do agree that the first Diamond should come before the 2nd Chrome, since picking a card to Imprint is sometimes very hard, but I always have dead lands in hand mid combo.

The other idea that I had would be to add a 5th ritual to the deck. If we can start our combo with an extra ritual, then we are in good shape. The problem is, what rituals do we want?

1) Culling the Weak is right out
2) Cabal Ritual costs 2, but we can hit threshold fairly easily.
3) Rain of Filth costs 1, but is only good if we have 2+ lands out and hurts us if we aren't winning that turn.
4) Bubbling Muck isn't a ritual, but I do know I fetch out Swamps primarily, so it could give us that extra 1 mana boost we need from 2 lands.


Anyway, those are just my initial thoughts on the matter, based off of my observations with the deck.

[Azdraël]

I personally play one Mox Diam over the one-off Chrome mox. Most of the time I found myself not wanting to give away a card on Chrome Mox. So I find it quite useless before comboing-off. In testing I have more situations when I've got one extra land and can discard it to Mox Diamond than wanting to imprint a card on Chrome Mox. And after comboing-off, Mox Diam is way better as it can give us the white mana we always need, all the more when we don't draw into our Lotus Petal. Plus, the opening hands with 2 lands, one of wchich is a Fetch, Mox Diam and a BS are magic. I'm not considering changing it for Chrome Mox anymore.

My humble 2cents.

[Koby]

Thanks for the feedback. It's a good account of how Mox Diamond is working out in these lists. I often burn a turn 1 Lotus Petal to have a kick-ass Brainstorm on turn 1; and this makes those hands much better.

[DavidHernandez]

What is the problem with the current mana configuration?

Comparing it with the ANT manabase:

ANT:
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Tin-Fins:
1 Scrubland
1 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

We play a similar mana configuration. Same quantity of duals and fetchlands, exchanging the second basic with a Chrome Mox, while using a similar cantrip suite.

Greetings Chris
I have to disagree with this. ANT runs fifteen lands and in addition, it runs four Lions Eye Diamonds, four Cabal Rituals, and often a second Chrome Mox. And it had four Lotus Petals. This is based on the list that recently took the high finish at SCG. Tin Fins has Mana base problems that need to be corrected.

To say the deck has a Mana base like ANT is not true. It NEEDS a base like ANTs. But LEDs won't work for us, and without more lands, Cabal Rituals are bad too.

Chrome Mox is good as a one-of, but two of them forces the unacceptable loss of business spells at critical points in the game, literally the difference between going off or fizzling.


I am convinced that 15 lands is the right number for Tin Fins, with four Lotus Petals, one Chrome Mox and 1 Mox diamond in the mix, along with four dark rituals.

Going to use it tonight and focus on excellent play so there are no excuses.

Dave

[Acclimation]

I have to disagree with this. ANT runs fifteen lands and in addition, it runs four Lions Eye Diamonds, four Cabal Rituals, and often a second Chrome Mox. And it had four Lotus Petals. This is based on the list that recently took the high finish at SCG. Tin Fins has Mana base problems that need to be corrected.

To say the deck has a Mana base like ANT is not true. It NEEDS a base like ANTs. But LEDs won't work for us, and without more lands, Cabal Rituals are bad too.

Chrome Mox is good as a one-of, but two of them forces the unacceptable loss of business spells at critical points in the game, literally the difference between going off or fizzling.


I am convinced that 15 lands is the right number for Tin Fins, with four Lotus Petals, one Chrome Mox and 1 Mox diamond in the mix, along with four dark rituals.

Going to use it tonight and focus on excellent play so there are no excuses.

Dave

I don't think a mana base like ANT's is good for us though. ANT needs to achieve a critical mass of mana in order to chain 10 spells together, with the highest costing card being 5, and has to be able to hit 4 mana at minimum for Tendrils.

On the other hand, we need 3 mana to Entomb+Reanimate, and then another 3 mana to do it again for Emrakul. Each segment is easily cast off of a Dark Ritual, so any Rits that we draw reduce our mana requirements by 2 per ritual. In an ideal world, we Rit>Entomb>Grave, draw 7, Petal>Rit>Entomb>Grave swing and win, needing only 2 mana sources to combo.

When it comes to mana bottle necks for the deck, it usually comes down to missing one of two parts: a Dark Ritual or a mana rock. Sometimes it is correct to wait a turn to combo so we have the spare mana going into our combo (such as waiting for t3 to have a land drop and a spare land in play already). Sometimes it's correct to Rit>Entomb>Grave at the opponent's endstep so we untap with full mana. But those situations are based on game state and can't be dependable.

I think that if you are 15 lands, you tend to play the deck as more of a t3 combo deck, and having 6 mana rocks can be a bit much, since you are now down 2 business/cantrips/protection slots over the 14 land lists.

14 and under lands, you are sprinting to go off on turn 1.5 and having 6 rocks helps toward that end, and the current config of 5 does work very well.


Either way, I'm curious as to what your testing brings you.

Wishing you luck!

[Mindlash]

I have to disagree with this. ANT runs fifteen lands and in addition, it runs four Lions Eye Diamonds, four Cabal Rituals, and often a second Chrome Mox. And it had four Lotus Petals. This is based on the list that recently took the high finish at SCG. Tin Fins has Mana base problems that need to be corrected.

To say the deck has a Mana base like ANT is not true. It NEEDS a base like ANTs. But LEDs won't work for us, and without more lands, Cabal Rituals are bad too.

Chrome Mox is good as a one-of, but two of them forces the unacceptable loss of business spells at critical points in the game, literally the difference between going off or fizzling.


I am convinced that 15 lands is the right number for Tin Fins, with four Lotus Petals, one Chrome Mox and 1 Mox diamond in the mix, along with four dark rituals.

Going to use it tonight and focus on excellent play so there are no excuses.

Dave

Thanks for pointing that out. I was under the impression that the manabase is the permanent mana configuration, while IMS and rituals count towards fast mana.

Thats why I asked whats wrong with the mana base.

I am well aware that ANT plays more rituals and rocks ;)

Good luck for your tournament.

[Richard Cheese]

I don't think a mana base like ANT's is good for us though. ANT needs to achieve a critical mass of mana in order to chain 10 spells together, with the highest costing card being 5, and has to be able to hit 4 mana at minimum for Tendrils.

On the other hand, we need 3 mana to Entomb+Reanimate, and then another 3 mana to do it again for Emrakul. Each segment is easily cast off of a Dark Ritual, so any Rits that we draw reduce our mana requirements by 2 per ritual. In an ideal world, we Rit>Entomb>Grave, draw 7, Petal>Rit>Entomb>Grave swing and win, needing only 2 mana sources to combo.

When it comes to mana bottle necks for the deck, it usually comes down to missing one of two parts: a Dark Ritual or a mana rock. Sometimes it is correct to wait a turn to combo so we have the spare mana going into our combo (such as waiting for t3 to have a land drop and a spare land in play already). Sometimes it's correct to Rit>Entomb>Grave at the opponent's endstep so we untap with full mana. But those situations are based on game state and can't be dependable.

I think that if you are 15 lands, you tend to play the deck as more of a t3 combo deck, and having 6 mana rocks can be a bit much, since you are now down 2 business/cantrips/protection slots over the 14 land lists.

14 and under lands, you are sprinting to go off on turn 1.5 and having 6 rocks helps toward that end, and the current config of 5 does work very well.


Either way, I'm curious as to what your testing brings you.

Wishing you luck!

Agreed. Extremely low mana requirements are one of the advantages of TinFins over other storm decks. We really start needing to generate mana mid-combo rather than hitting some critical threshold before going off (especially if circumstances dictate that you need to use your attack step), which is why I emphasize IMSs over lands. I'll give Diamond a try over the second Chrome and see how it goes.

[warfordium]

Agreed. Extremely low mana requirements are one of the advantages of TinFins over other storm decks. We really start needing to generate mana mid-combo rather than hitting some critical threshold before going off (especially if circumstances dictate that you need to use your attack step), which is why I emphasize IMSs over lands. I'll give Diamond a try over the second Chrome and see how it goes.

there's a good chance i'm going to audible to this on Sunday at #SCGSEA, so i'm going to try the 1/1 Chrome/Diamond build in a round of testing tonight. i most often fizzle with the deck (i.e. can't add emrakul to a hasty griselbrand OR make children) because i didn't hit an additional IMS. time to #yoloswag

[Koby]

OK so let's assume we're playing a 61 card list with 2 Moxen (1 Chrome, 1 Diamond) -- based on Logan/Koby's list, which card do we cut to fit the 2nd Mox?

Gitaxian Probe?
Silence?
Land?

[Niggurath]

What about cutting Silence? Currently not playing this deck, but I played Koby's list (your BOM list) a lot in MTGO. Always felt that one-of silence at main was too random. Great when it was good, but the worst when was bad.

[Niggurath]

Forgot I also ran -1 lim dul's because I'm a maniac who only can play 60 cards decks.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm against cutting land 14 in a list running diamond. Cut probe down to 3.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Acclimation]

I would be cutting the Silence/3rd Thoughtseize slot for this.

6 pieces of protection is plenty, Probe does a lot of work, and shaving a land in a 14 land base for a card that requires you to pitch a land doesn't seem like a good idea.

[warfordium]

i'm gonna run 61/14 with no silence main, 1 LDV, and 1 Mox Diamond.

[Joe Eigo]

Can someone explain to me, why you ever would want more than 60 cards in a deck which always wants to have an Entomb in (starting) hand ? Where is the logic ...? Because some statistics tells you will just lose 1 out of 61 games because of that or what...?

[Joe Eigo]

OK so let's assume we're playing a 61 card list with 2 Moxen (1 Chrome, 1 Diamond) -- based on Logan/Koby's list, which card do we cut to fit the 2nd Mox?

Gitaxian Probe?
Silence?
Land?

Cutting a land for Mox Diamond ? o_O Isn't Chrome Mox just better or equally good before and after combo except you are flooded with lands...? Is it because of the Children... ?

[Richard Cheese]

Cutting a land for Mox Diamond ? o_O Isn't Chrome Mox just better or equally good before and after combo except you are flooded with lands...? Is it because of the Children... ?

Post combo it's actually way better. Since you only get one land drop per turn and we're generally trying to go off as fast as possible, a lot of times you've already used your land drop before you start to draw off Grizzlebees. Chrome and Diamond are equally good in this situation, because you need another mana source to keep going, but you have plenty of fodder to pitch.

[Koby]

Many things in this deck seem to defy conventional deck building logic, mainly because this is a Storm engine deck. It compares similarly to TES and ANT in its construction, both of which rely on low-land, high-cantrip count.

Through extensive testing, I reasoned that the core of roughly 54 cards is rock solid:

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
8 fetchland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea

The remaining slots:
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Underground Sea
1 Thoughtseize / Silence
1 Reanimate

In an unknown metagame, playing the 14th land helps to offset loses against Wasteland/Stifle/Daze decks. However, playing 14 lands has been tested to show a frequency of "flooding," suggesting that the 14th land is superfluous in unknown metas where we are not matched against Blue Tempo decks. Conversely, playing with only 13 lands has resulted in varied results with a larger frequency of losses to Tempo when matched up.

Thus, the ratio of 13/60 feel light (21.7%), and 14/60 feels heavy (23.3%). Adding the 61st card bridges between those two ratios (22.95%). The significance of the 61 card is low (<2%).

Enter Gitaxian Probe. Effectively a zero mana cantrip which helps move through the deck faster (and finds Entomb more regularly), and provides valuable information. In fact, the information and its use with LDV is of so much importance, that it feels like the deck is losing a bit when we only run 3 to squeeze back to 60 cards.

The Thoughtseize/Silence slot is to help ensure sufficient disruption against other combo and counter decks. Silence is specifically replacing Thoughtseize in combo heavier metagames (such as LA), but is not necessary for the list.

Reanimate was reasoned to be better than the 4th Goryo's Vengeance for two important reasons: 1) reanimating Children of Korlis, and 2) providing a Plan B against tempo decks by reanimating Griselbrand or Tempo's discarded creatures (Goyf, TNN).

Moreover, the 61st card is not a hard and steady requirement, but rather a "meta" call. I don't expect anyone to copy my list as the proven "as-is", but rather encourage variations on the last few slots, including and not limited to 60 or 61 cards.

The suggestion to add the Mox Diamond is of interest to me for providing a better mana ratio. The discussion over the last few pages is focused on reducing the likelihood of fizzling after Griselbrand is in play. Mox Diamond is of benefit due to excess dead land draws after drawing 7-21 cards. .dk mentioned that if we could run 6 Lotus Petals, we would. The suggestion of cutting a land to fit a Mox Diamond stems from the fact that we will rarely use Mox Diamond prior to reanimating Griselbrand. I don't doubt it could happen before, and the risks of doing so must be evaluated. I've covered some of the qualitative aspects of the inclusion in a previous post some pages back.

Finally, to qualify these statements; my constructed record with Tin Fins in large (6+ round events) is 35-19-2, or ~65%, with the largest contributor is Bazaar of Moxen at 7-2 Day 1, and 2-4 Day 2; mostly losing to RUG variants in Day 2.

[DavidHernandez]

What about cutting Silence? Currently not playing this deck, but I played Koby's list (your BOM list) a lot in MTGO. Always felt that one-of silence at main was too random. Great when it was good, but the worst when was bad.

I say Silence. You will have access to them in the board for game 2.

[Acclimation]

Hell, I'll even add my constructed record at events- 13-8-1 (2 open(6-2-1 w/ top 8, and 6-3)s, 1 Invitational (1-3)), which puts me at a 59% win ratio at large, comp REL events, and countless 4-0s and 3-1s at small scale local store events (I've never done worse than 3-1 at regular REL with the deck). 61/14 works for this deck. I have winning ratios against all match-ups.


We could probably shave that 14th land, but for reasons mentioned in Koby's post, 13 feels light sometimes, and I tend to play against a lot of Wasteland decks. And for anecdotal evidence, sometimes 14 can be risky, one of my round losses at the most recent open was due to never seeing more than 2 lands during the ENTIRE round.


Probe helps with LDV, can get us a few lifepoints lower when we want to Children but can't draw another 7, provides info, lets us keep greedy hands (sometimes), helps Cabal Therapy, and is free card draw. I may board the card out in most of my matches, but g1, I want all 4.

Reanimate is a slot we could cut, but as mentioned in other posts, it opens up some solid lines of play that the 4th Goryo's doesn't add, and dipping below 8 reanimation spells would cut down on our consistency.

I'm not a fan of cutting an LDV since that card has been clutch for me every time I cast it. Nothing else in the deck digs as hard, and it is great for setting up t3 combo kills.

The Thoughtseize/Silence slot seems to be the least risky slot to cut. Thoughtseize can sometimes help us combo, but Silence usually eats a counterspell if we ever see it g1 (which is working as intended, honestly). Silence is an awkward pitch to Chrome Mox, and we need to keep our life loss in check with the Thoughtseize. I think if we want to try a slot for the Diamond, this is the one.

[StackOverflow]

I just returned to the game on Thursday and thought TinFins looked like a blast to play. I Played in a 25-30 man tournament this weekend and saw a ton of Cloudpost and was curious how you guys may have played differently as I am horrible at Magic now haha(quit right before Kamigawa). I basically didn't know how to respond to Bojuka Bog and Vesuva's on Bojuka Bog in my 3 matches against Cloudpost. I named Crop Rotation off of Cabal Therapy and when I boarded in Pithing Needle I would name Top/Expedition Map or Candelabra the one time I saw it.
Ultimately I felt like these were just games where I needed to take a step back and try and get the mana/rituals to just play over the top of a GY removal effect with a secondary Shallow Grave/Goryo's Vengeance; but they seemed to always be able to get a Primeval Titan out before I could get the mana I needed. This seems like a situation where I just needed to know how the deck interactions work with Post as well as mulligan decisions. I tried to find hands that were explosive because I felt disruption would be weak against a grip with a lot of lands. Do you guys have any recommendations on playing against Post?

PS. This is a great thread with info on learning the deck. Thanks Acclimation for your post on sideboarding; it helped me a lot against DnT.

[warfordium]

SCG…TACOMA


4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox

1 Children of Korlis
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Æons Torn

1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate

1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard

2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Serenity
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Silence
3 Pithing Needle



R1: Gavin (Jund) 0-2 L
R2: Richard (Merfolk) 0-2 L

at this point I have attempted the combo 0 times and lost both die rolls. Gavin is a local Vancouver degenerate who had T1, T2 DRS G1, then top decks thoughtseize T1 G2 after i had thoughtseized him to protect my t2 kill (TS, Therapy, Goryo's, Griselbrand, Land, Land, Petal)—then he played Tarmogoyf and i bricked. sat next to Huey, who was run over by a neophyte delver player who didn't know who he was. this format has VERY powerful cards.

round 2 was fish vs bricks, Richard was a good player who dazed his own Lord played off a cavern in order to deny me a final turn by using the replayed island to activate his mutavault. he said after G2 "you must be a combo player having a bad day; hope your luck turns around!"

thanks, Richard…

R3: John (Domain Zoo) 2-0 W
R4: James (Sneak and Show) 2-0 W
R5: Justin (Merfolk) 2-1 W

two goldfish games in a row, followed by a merfolk match where i had information and redundancy. John was amazed at what the deck could do (i almost had to loop the deck g2 as the last dark ritual was the last card in the deck…). James bricked so hard in G1 he scooped without even seeing my combo, and i nailed 2 show and tells on a blind therapy in G2 (he guessed i'd name Sneak but he wouldn't have had the mana until after i had gone off). against Justin, i combed around daze G1, bricked G2, and ran the first of two goryo's into swan song T2, then silenced him T3 before letting a cute little bird join emrakul and grizzlebizzle for 24 in the air.

at this point i'm thinking my luck has changed…

R6: Stuart (Burn) 1-2 L
R7: Jamal (Manaless Dredge) 1-1 L

Stuart goldfishes me G1, I play it safe and reanimate on consecutive turns (gaining life) in G2 (i've seen his mindbreak trap and have decided he has a strange hate package). G3 i'm unable to go off and pass the turn at 5 life while he's stuck on a goblin guide and 1 mountain with fireblast and rift bolt in hand, and he draws Reckless Charge…and thats the card that _really_ ended my quest for cash.

Jamal is a nice enough dude who is a dedicated dredge player—he's sitting at table 62 at the start of the round. I'm at 61 with a very quiet guy named Matt who barely looks up when i said hello—we shuffle up and resolve mulligans. Turns out that I was wrong and Matt's opponent was late…I realized this when Jamal started calling out for Chad, his opponent. My first thought is "huhn, what are the chances of there being a Chad sitting right next to me" quickly followed by "crap, pretty slim, better double-check my pairing". i slide over and apologize, when none other than Mirkwood stalwart David Miller comes by to drop off the pairings slip with 90 seconds on the clock—and hands me a game loss. apparently it hasn't been 5 mins grace for about 3 years, and game losses are immediate now… i'm either too tilted, disinterested or tired to appeal.

here i am, down a game to dredge with no sideboarding allowed. i still like myself on the play, so i put myself on it. luckily for me (since he's manaless) i had a thoughtseize and cabal therapy hand with a couple of cantrips…and he lets TS resolve after cycling a street wraith. his hand includes force, probe, probe. i take the force (time walk!) and then therapy probe (two more time walks!) and then get to 'tripping. he finally gets going and his 2 or 3 ichorids…putting me to 3. I LDV to 1, hit the entomb, then go off on my last turn (had to attack first but managed to tendrils him). G3 i open surgical and double needle! i surgical ichorid as soon as he dredges it, then slam needle on phantasmagorian, followed by Azami. turns out he's on the dread return kill instead of the Azami, and gets me from 10 life with Balustrade spy into 2 flayer triggers and one from a BIG grave troll. not much the second needle could have done there. he apologizes over the game loss situation, then his friend (not him) offers me a handshake when i'm clearly disappointed at the situation and i no-sir him pretty hard.

i desideboard and sit at the table for a little while.

sdematt asks me if i want to drop and come for coffee, given that i'm firmly out of the money, but i want some more games to assess the variance in the deck and to have some more fun instead of ending on a poor note.

R8 Unknown... 2-0 W
R9 Johnnie Walker (Affinity) 2-0 W

now for the awkwardness. no opponent R8, so i casually destroy Vancouver action addict Marcel on Patriot in some fun fast and loose games (his opponent also didn't show). I think he won one out of 6 or 7? Jordan Aisaka shows up and pilots the deck for fun while I drink a blessed cappuccino.

R9 is also a goldfish—though there was an awkward moment when i go off T2 on the play casting Shallow Grave having binned griselbrand through cabal therapy and my opponent (surprisingly) has spell pierce. i happily pay as i've played dark ritual (and have noted storm and floating mana on my note pad). my opponent says "when did you play dark ritual?"—he seems to have missed it and claims to have been reading shallow grave, and tells the judge we called that he would have countered the dark ritual. i feel bad since i may have mistaken his non-response to my ritual as passing priority (he snap let therapy resolve), but since he's seen my hand already and i've noted storm and floating mana the judge i've provided enough information for Johnnie. We both mull to 5 G3 (mine is forced as i somehow only present 2/3 of my deck and ) and I T1 ponder into the nuts T2 kill if he taps out (which he does to put me from 19 to 11!!!). I apologize about the mixup and we share some bad judge interaction stories, including my ridiculous GP Denver R1 tale (inquire within).

4-4 in matches played, 10 - 8 in games.

Die Rolls: L - L - L - W - W - W - L - * - W
Win/Loss: L - L - W - W - W -L - L - * - W

My Scissors Lizard completed the set and i only had one opponent no-sir me on Rock-Paper-Scissors on the day (i then won the die roll!). Also picked up some japanese commander goodies. Got to chat with Joe Lossett, the Victorians (including T8 Elf devotee SpencerS), eventual winner and TinFins connoisseur phazonmutant, and watch a local sneak'n'show player misdirect a chain lightning after having emrakul'd my eventual burn opponent for the win. I also drew the last card in my deck (the last dark ritual) against zoo in order to cast the tendrils for the win.

Thanks to Mr. Shine for the electronic music library making the drive back seem to take no time and to sdematt and co for lends and good company on the way down.

PDX, i'm picking a deck next week and coming for you in June.

[DavidHernandez]

Hey, great report. I'm curious...did you find the 14th land handy? Did Mox Diamond help you?

Dave

[Richard Cheese]

Should have just gone for it G2 of Round 1!

Good report though, bad breaks on the Dredge loss.

[Acclimation]

I just returned to the game on Thursday and thought TinFins looked like a blast to play. I Played in a 25-30 man tournament this weekend and saw a ton of Cloudpost and was curious how you guys may have played differently as I am horrible at Magic now haha(quit right before Kamigawa). I basically didn't know how to respond to Bojuka Bog and Vesuva's on Bojuka Bog in my 3 matches against Cloudpost. I named Crop Rotation off of Cabal Therapy and when I boarded in Pithing Needle I would name Top/Expedition Map or Candelabra the one time I saw it.
Ultimately I felt like these were just games where I needed to take a step back and try and get the mana/rituals to just play over the top of a GY removal effect with a secondary Shallow Grave/Goryo's Vengeance; but they seemed to always be able to get a Primeval Titan out before I could get the mana I needed. This seems like a situation where I just needed to know how the deck interactions work with Post as well as mulligan decisions. I tried to find hands that were explosive because I felt disruption would be weak against a grip with a lot of lands. Do you guys have any recommendations on playing against Post?

PS. This is a great thread with info on learning the deck. Thanks Acclimation for your post on sideboarding; it helped me a lot against DnT.

A lot of the time, beating effects like Bojuka Bog, Relic, and DRS that clear cards out of your graveyard can just come down to having enough mana to cast multiple reanimation effects in response.

For example:

Goryo, targeting your Griselbrand
Opponent Crop Rotates
Shallow Grave before it resolves, or in response to the trigger on Bog

You get a Griselbrand, they clear your gy, you continue your business.

Against decks that can clear out your graveyard, it's usually risky business to cast an early Entomb before having the means to cast reanimation of any flavor.

I haven't played against Post, but looking at lists, their plan of attack is to either A)ramp into Eldrazi or B) Show and Tell into Eldrazi. Pretty much any deck with SnT will board them out against us, so they're likely to bring in any sideboarded counterspells and potentially things like Needle, Revoker, and Chalice.

Game 1 is in our favor, we're faster and they have no interaction outside of Crop Rotation for Karakas. I do see lists with mainboard Revokers and Needles though, so if they see a Griselbrand before you can get it onto the field, you could be in trouble.

Since Chalice+Trinket Mage is a thing, I'm likely to bring in Serenity to deal with the artifact hate that they have, and rely on Discard to get clear the way of Crop Rotation and Counterspells. Since they only have the 1 Karakas and I'm bringing in Serenity, I'm not going to bring in my own Needles, and hope that I can beat the odds.

Probably something like
-2 LDV +2 Serenity, leaving in Probes since I want maximum information against them and LDV is going to be slow.

A safer option would probably be something like
-3 Probe -2 LDV
+3 Chain +2 Needle

Needle on Karakas and maybe Relic if they run it (or Top), Chain to bounce their own Needles, Revokers, Chalices (long shot, since it'll likely be on 1). You still have your discard to deal with counterspells and Crop Rotations.


This might all be incorrect though, but if I were on the spot playing against 12-Post, that's how I would go against the deck.

Keep at it, and you'll get "good" eventually :D



@Warfordium

Good report, sucks to see the bricks happen though. Those off days on luck are rough.

How did the Mox feel?

[StackOverflow]

This might all be incorrect though, but if I were on the spot playing against 12-Post, that's how I would go against the deck.

Keep at it, and you'll get "good" eventually :D

Thanks for the in depth reply. I played again last night trying out some different starting hands and having some awkward plays with an opposing Chains of Mephistopheles on the the board. Definitely wasn't expecting it haha. I am going to try mulliganing more aggresively in the future and see where that takes me, as well as trying to accumulate more mana to play over the top of hate. Overall the deck is a blast to play; my local meta consists of lots of MD grave hate it is definitely a learning experience. :D

[.dk]

I've actually been playing mostly Turbo Eldrazi lately, so I think I can give some pointers on that matchup.

Game 1 is better for Turbo Eldrazi than you think, depending on the build. Most builds have at least 3 pieces of interaction Game 1:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm

All of which can be Crop Rotated for, or Expedition Map. Personally, I also play 2 maindeck Pithing Needle along with 2 Trinket Mage in Eldrazi which can be really rough for Tin Fins Game 1 if drawn (ask Richard Cheese - he didn't enjoy our match a couple of weeks ago).

In the sideboard, I'm personally packing a ton of countermagic (more like older Rock Lee builds) - but a lot of them have been eschewing that for more things against discard decks (Obstinate Baloth, etc.). I also run 1 Chalice of the Void as a Trinket Mage target.

If I'm on Tin Fins - go off as fast as possible when you see Trop -> Sensei's Divining Top Game 1. Post Board games, bring in Silences, Pithing Needles, and maybe Serenity. Needle on Top is really really good against them, or Karakas if you need to. Use your discard liberally - but they are almost 100% boarding out Show and Tell and Candelabra, so I wouldn't be naming those.

Tin Fins is favored, but a good Turbo Eldrazi pilot can surprise you. Also, advice like Acclimation gave (make sure you can respond to a Crop Rotation with another Reanimation spell) is very key.

[warfordium]

@Richard Cheese i didn't have a t1 as it was 2 land 1 petal, not the other way around.

The mox diamond was great. I opened both moxes once, but that hand also had brainstorm and entomb, so i kept ;) I ended up on 5 mana on turn 2 when going off once (can't quite remember which round) thanks to having two moxes. it was nice not having to pitch business after going off—you almost always have a spare land rather than business you don't want.

Oh, for more entombs. thats all the deck wants.

[Koby]

I can also echo favorable usage of Mox Diamond, as I got an opportunity to use it pre-combo and it was great! So far, liking the swap for Silence. We'll find out this weekend how well that works if I end up choosing to play Tin Fins at #SCGLA.

[Richard Cheese]

I've actually been playing mostly Turbo Eldrazi lately, so I think I can give some pointers on that matchup.

Game 1 is better for Turbo Eldrazi than you think, depending on the build. Most builds have at least 3 pieces of interaction Game 1:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm

All of which can be Crop Rotated for, or Expedition Map. Personally, I also play 2 maindeck Pithing Needle along with 2 Trinket Mage in Eldrazi which can be really rough for Tin Fins Game 1 if drawn (ask Richard Cheese - he didn't enjoy our match a couple of weeks ago).

In the sideboard, I'm personally packing a ton of countermagic (more like older Rock Lee builds) - but a lot of them have been eschewing that for more things against discard decks (Obstinate Baloth, etc.). I also run 1 Chalice of the Void as a Trinket Mage target.

If I'm on Tin Fins - go off as fast as possible when you see Trop -> Sensei's Divining Top Game 1. Post Board games, bring in Silences, Pithing Needles, and maybe Serenity. Needle on Top is really really good against them, or Karakas if you need to. Use your discard liberally - but they are almost 100% boarding out Show and Tell and Candelabra, so I wouldn't be naming those.

Tin Fins is favored, but a good Turbo Eldrazi pilot can surprise you. Also, advice like Acclimation gave (make sure you can respond to a Crop Rotation with another Reanimation spell) is very key.

Doesn't help when your opponent knows exactly what you're on and drops needle on Grizzlebees turn one...but yeah it's harder than you'd think on the surface, because Crop Rot can tutor for several relevant cards that we don't really have great answers for. Try to catch them early, esp. if they don't have access to green yet.

[.dk]

Doesn't help when your opponent knows exactly what you're on and drops needle on Grizzlebees turn one...but yeah it's harder than you'd think on the surface, because Crop Rot can tutor for several relevant cards that we don't really have great answers for. Try to catch them early, esp. if they don't have access to green yet.

Fair point - advance knowledge certainly helped - but I don't think it's quite a cakewalk either.

[D@N]

Took me a while to find my game slips but here's my results at seattle this weekend. First my list

4 lotus petal
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
4 shallow grave
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 cabal therapy
4 gitaxian probe
3 goryo's vengeance
2 thoughtseize
3 griselbrand
1 emrakul
1 children of korlis
1 LDV
1 tendrils of agony
1 reanimate
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
3 underground sea
4 polluted delta
3 marsh flats
1 tundra
1 scrubland
1 island
1 swamp

SB
3 silence
2 surgical
2 pithing needle
2 serenity
1 echoing truth
2 chain of vapour
2 massacre
1 pull from eternity

R1 Elves won the roll

G1: I mull to 6 and get the perfect T1 kill, I FoW check without knowing what he's on and attack for 22. Risky play but I like being a game up rather then one down.
G2: I board in 2 chain's and a needle and mull all the way down to 4 keeping fetch UG sea ponder and entomb, whatevr this is the best its gonna get so I keep. He plays bayou and thoughtseize taking the ponder. My turn I draw Brainstorm and play sea and pass. He cabal therapys and I entomb in response putting griselbees in the bin and he names shallow grave. My turn i rip a goryo's vengeance and fetch and go off. weeeeeeee!!1!

1-0

R2 BUG delver lose roll

G1: I keep a good turn 2 hand with a seize if hes on blue, sure enough he is and he plays sea delver pass. I play land go hoping to bs eot to find IMS to pay for seize. I find ritual and petal and play land petal seize seeing pierce FoW and no other blue card so i take pierce and go off with tendrils chain.
G2:I put him on permanent hate and put in chain's and needles. I keep a risky T1 6 and just hope he doesnt have a force, but of course he does and I cant get anything going before his delver and goyf kill me. During those turns he plays a crypt and thats all I see from his board.
G3: I keep a double entomb ponder brainstorm thought seize hand hoping to get something quickly. I t1 seize him seeing delver Fow daze thoughtseize and lands I take the force and see what i can get on my brainstorm. He seizes back and I entomb binning bee's. My turn I bs seeing a reanimate and petal, play petal and reanimate he makes me pay and within 14 cards i see enough to get a spaghetti monster and attack for 22.

2-0

R3 Manaless dredge lose roll and he wants the draw

G1: I instantly put him on dredge and keep an excellent 6 and just straight kill him T1 with a tendrils chain.
G2: 2 surgicals in and I mull pretty hard going to 5 with a ponder sea fetch brainstorm and entomb hand. After playing a sea and pass he bins a phantasmagorian and i knows he's gonna get stupid at eot so I BS and see nothing. Play ponder and see a shallow grave and no way to cast it this turn so i draw it and try for an eot entomb. I dont get another turn as he double activates phantasm twice binning 2 trolls and a ichorid. Then cycles street wraith and dredges 6 then on his turn probes and does it again getting a griselbrand 2 narc's and ichorid and returns grisel to dredge his library and kill me with a flayer'd troll.
G3: I punt really hard after G2 forgetting that needle hits phantasmagorian and dont board anything besides surgical and echoing truth again. I go to 6 and see an awesome hand of T1 win. I go for it thinking im good and he macbre's my griselbrand in response to shallow grave. I shoo;ld have seen it coming but Id rather lose to a card he actually had then playing careful. He has to draw for a couple turns then bins phantasmagorian and double acvtivates and has 2 wraiths this time basicly doing the same thing.

2-1

R4 Painter with white win roll

G1: I get a brainstorm reanimate petal entomb ponder lands hand. I just go for it and put a 7/7 into play and lose 8. Which he just scoops without me seeing a play.
G2: I board in needles and chains and see a turn one trinsphere. Oh crap long game, I brick for a bit and he just starts dropping bridges and cannonists, and beats me with some grey ogres, grizzly bears and goblins.
G3: I say screw it and go deep with boarding putting in massacres along with chains, needle and the echoing truth. I open a good hand with shallow grave, goryo's, dark rit, ponder brainstorm and lands. I play fetch and pass thinking i might see a turn 1 moon but he just plays top and passes. I eot brainstorm seeing fetch and discard. i put one discard and fetch back drawing fetch for turn. I play it, and play ponder seeing bricks, shuffle and draw brainstorm. He uses top in upkeep and draws then flips top to discard ssg and play cannonist off a fetch and plateau. I draw ponder and ponder seeing echoing truth, grisselbrand and petal. I keep all on top and draw lotus petal and play it then during his turn i BS and grab therapy. On his turn he plays thalia and i have to wait for more mana. So now i have grisselbee's shallow, goryo's, therapy, echoing truth and dark rit. I draw a ponder and see nothing besides brainstorm and lands. I keep and draw a fetch so i dont get BS locked next turn. He plays a welder and a Imp recruiter getting a painter. I draw brainstorm and wait till his eot and play it to shuffle and thin if the draw is bad. I draw ponder needle and massacre and keep putting back needle and ponder. Draw ponder for turn play massacre paying 1 wipe his board then do off with dark rit and therapy. He cant believe i boarded massacre and neither can i but whatev's it just got me a win.

3-1

R4: DnT lose roll
G1 and 2: These games are actually just the worst and I mull down to 4 both games trying to see either just lands and spells or any kind of action. I dont think he knew what i has on after game one cuz all he saw was a fetch sea and 2 ponders. Game 2 T2 thalia and t3 spirit end the game quickly and I scoop at 5 with nothing and still have 40 mins on the clock so I go get some lunch.

3-2

R5: Ant lose roll
G1: I open perfect 7 and think for a few after he snap keeps. I see turn one fetch for island and ponder, which gets me curious but after i just smash for 22 and think for a min i put him on ant.
G2: I keep a good hand of cantrips and fetchs with entomb and silence. He turn one ponders and keeps making think hes got a good hand so i play fetch and pass in case i have to silence him. He brainstorms and plays fetch after drawing then brainstorms again and I just Bs after getting a sea seeing another brainstorm and fetch. I basically do the same thing again playing a fetch and waiting with 2 brainstorms and a ponder in hand. He draws and opens with a lotus petal I guess that hes trying for it and after him playing a dark ritual and a Led I silence, off a tundra. I brainstorm off my sea and see no discard to slow him down so I hope I waited long enough to play silence. I draw for turn and have to pass. He draws plays land and dark rit's then plays 2 petals and a infernal tutor and I expect to die off adnauseum. Instead he flips just total bricks and goes from 18 to 5 quickly drawing his tendrils and PiF but no IMS he starts flipping slowly going down 1 or 2 at a time goes to 4 then says dead and scoops drawing his EtW. Aiya.

4-2

R6 Belcher win roll
G1: He shows up just as they start the round and he looks rushed, I snap keep a T2 hand I see turn one taiga putting him on zoo and i just dont care and go off smashing for 22.
G2: His T1 i see a land grant and pass, good thing I kept a thoughtseize hand grab his burning wish when all he needs is 2 mana to get going. We play draw go for a few turns with me playing ponders and brainstorms. I finally get a good brainstorm off main phase and is he doesnt kill me I can go off next turn. I cabal mtherapy him naming burning wish again and see nothing besides ramp. I go off next turn tendrils him for a lot.

5-2

R7 Uwr delver Lose roll
G1: It getting late and Im tired so i just keep a good 7 and just FoW check T1 which he has and I lose quickly to a double flipped delvers.
G2: I get another good 7 T2 hand and expect he doesnt keep in daze on the draw and after he taps out for a delver I FoW check and the coast is clear attack for 22.
G3: Mull to 5 with a T2 hand and punt not checking his hand with a probe that i just drew and run into a daze after he taps out for a ponder. the next few turns I see in this sequence Him- meddling mage naming goryo's, Me- silence, Him- meddling mage naming shallow grave, Me- silence, Him- meddling mage naming massacre, Me- silence you can guess how this game goes

5-3

I decide to play as the others in my car are in the money and if i win and get lucky i might make $$$

R8 Mud lose roll
G1: T1 chalice for one I dont play anything and just scoop at 8 with a wurmcoil out.
G2: I keep a good turn 2 hand and he just plays sol land grim monolith and trisphere. I draw go and he untaps and plays another sol land and plays metalworker. Draw go land go from me he reveals 4 artifacts and plays double lodestone golem. Awesome, I die a couple turns later.

5-4

I am really happy with the deck and wouldn't change a thing MD I think SB should be more artifact hate as I keep losing to random chalice or trinsphere decks. I def. should of got rid of the pull from eternity but I keep seeing extirpate in my local meta and just wanted a out, never used it all day. Im happy for the way I played and for the amount of actual playing and testing I do I was surprised I was able make so few mistakes.

Props to sdematt for finally caving a playing a blue spell in a sanctioned event, I never thought I'd see the day.

Dan

[Acclimation]

(these were some good words) if I end up choosing to play Tin Fins at #SCGLA.


What is this if?

Go #griselbanned or go home

@warfordium

Glad to hear about the Mox Diamond.

Looks like I'll have to pick one up in the near future.

@.dk

I'm less worried about Glacial Chasm, since it doesn't stop Tendrils and Emrakul does a good job of clearing it away.

Don't think the match-up is a cake walk, but going in blind, we should be in a good place.

Crop Rotation is definitely the scariest card in that deck.

[KIP_NZ]

I can also echo favorable usage of Mox Diamond, as I got an opportunity to use it pre-combo and it was great! So far, liking the swap for Silence. We'll find out this weekend how well that works if I end up choosing to play Tin Fins at #SCGLA.

DOIT and get on camera for us, been AGES since we had Tin Fins doing it's thang on camera.

[phazonmutant]

<REPORT>

Good seeing you in Seattle! Sorry to hear about the bricks... :(


What is this if?

Go #griselbanned or go home

Koby is still trying to get me to play TinFins at LA. It is pretty pimped out... I'll be picking up the last German FBB dual there.

Edit: Dammit! There were two MP German Tundras on SCG this morning but they must have gotten bought before I got my store credit. Oh well, I'll get an Italian.

[DavidHernandez]

The mox diamond was great. I opened both moxes once, but that hand also had brainstorm and entomb, so i kept ;) I ended up on 5 mana on turn 2 when going off once (can't quite remember which round) thanks to having two moxes. it was nice not having to pitch business after going off—you almost always have a spare land rather than business you don't want.


I can also echo favorable usage of Mox Diamond, as I got an opportunity to use it pre-combo and it was great! So far, liking the swap for Silence. We'll find out this weekend how well that works if I end up choosing to play Tin Fins at #SCGLA.
This is really good to hear. I'm finding it to be invaluable. As I'm getting more familiar with the deck, I'm agreeing that 15 land is too much. I think, as others have stated, that 14 is right. I know some players drop to 13 when they board...but to me that would be lite with a Mox Diamond in the list. The Diamond has been so strong that I will continue to run 14 land with a Diamond and a Chrome.


I am really happy with the deck and wouldn't change a thing MD I think SB should be more artifact hate as I keep losing to random chalice or trinsphere decks. I def. should of got rid of the pull from eternity but I keep seeing extirpate in my local meta and just wanted a out, never used it all day. Im happy for the way I played and for the amount of actual playing and testing I do I was surprised I was able make so few mistakes.
I'm seeing this too. I have lost to Tez, Lands w/Sphere of Resistance, and to Dragon Stompy(!!!). The Tez and Stomply ran Sol lands and dropped Chalice and/or Trinisphere so fast my head spun. The games were a joke. There has to be a way to stop the bleeding, and I'd love to hear some ideas.

BTW, Joey V. is running a list now that I LOVE. Hopefully he will post it after SCG LA this week. Wish I could go. :-(

Dave

[.dk]

True, Chasm isn't game over by any means, but can be a speed bump if you happen to brick on making emrakul pre-combat.

Glad to hear that the Mox Diamond testing has been going well. If only I had more time, I'd test on MODO with this beast...

[D@N]

hurkyls recall , or rebuild could work as it hits all the artifacts and cannonist as well.

[Koby]

That's generally the idea behind Serenity, as it frees up your mana for your turn to do the combo.

[cogitoergosum]

That's generally the idea behind Serenity, as it frees up your mana for your turn to do the combo.

Indeed, I went up to 3 serenity because my meta is filled with dark dpths decks running chalice and sphere of resistance. Once you 6 for 1 somebody, you never go back :)

[DavidHernandez]

That's generally the idea behind Serenity, as it frees up your mana for your turn to do the combo.

True, and I run 2 of them. I think I will bump to three like cogitoergosum mentioned. Two doesn't seem to be enough when you're going to be facing down a turn-one Chalice or Trinisphere at our local store. Mulling to 5 just to find a Serenity isn't really the best of all strategies. It might not be appropriate to run three at a large event though.

Thanks.

[warfordium]

i didn't board in serenity once at SCG Seattle… i chose pithing needle and silence as the 3-of hate slots. it is great, mind.

[DavidHernandez]

i didn't board in serenity once at SCG Seattle… i chose pithing needle and silence as the 3-of hate slots. it is great, mind.
I also run 2 Needles in the board, but they don't do anything against Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Pithing Needle, and Phyrexian Revoker...

[Acclimation]

Serenity is a card that you can never board in for multiple tournaments, but more than pays off for the one time you play against Hate Rocks.

3 is a good call if that's what your meta is weak to.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[warfordium]

I also run 2 Needles in the board, but they don't do anything against Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Pithing Needle, and Phyrexian Revoker... I usually see Revoker from decks which also run swords to plowshares—one reason why i debated a 3rd massacre as well. sorry to hear that you're fighting MUDslides

[Koby]

I'm all ears if we feel that there needs to be an update for the sideboard.

[DavidHernandez]

I'm all ears if we feel that there needs to be an update for the sideboard.
I think it's situation/meta dependent. Our tournaments are small...last week we only had 22 people. Sometimes we see multiples of decks on the same night, and the small turnout can skew what you play against. One night, I had to play against 3 Dredge decks in a row. I like the following as a general board:

SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 3 Silence
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

But on the nights that I hear we'll have multiple Dredge decks, I run:

SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 3 Silence

We don't see Death and Taxes unless I play it...so Massacre in our area isn't so good.

Last week we had 2 ANT and one Tin Fins decks. Makes me want to run Mindbreak Trap in the board...

I may have to run:

SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Serenity
SB: 3 Silence
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

Again, our local store is probably not the best way to prepare for a true meta environment. While we do see a lot of Tier1 decks, sometimes we see them in clumps of 3 (3 UWr Miracles; 3 Dredge; 3 Artifact-based; 3 Storm, etc.) ... all on the same night.

Blah. I need to go to a big tournament!

[D@N]

it just seems harder to find white and serenity for a board full of hate then it is blue. ill add a another serenity and see what it does bit i think paying 1-2 for a petal and a turn later another 2 for serenity seems weaker.

[DavidHernandez]

it just seems harder to find white and serenity for a board full of hate then it is blue. ill add a another serenity and see what it does bit i think paying 1-2 for a petal and a turn later another 2 for serenity seems weaker.
Yeah, that's why I run 2 Scrublands.

[cogitoergosum]

I'm all ears if we feel that there needs to be an update for the sideboard.

How often are you guys even using surgical? Against other graveyard and combo decks, we are usually faster. The main time it is useful for me is against loam wasteland decks with chalice, which is fairly niche. I think two may be correct amount, leaving a flex spot.

[DavidHernandez]

How often are you guys even using surgical? Against other graveyard and combo decks, we are usually faster. The main time it is useful for me is against loam wasteland decks with chalice, which is fairly niche. I think two may be correct amount, leaving a flex spot.
You can also use it as a defense. They Surgical you, you Surgical yourself in response, fail to find in your library, and save yourself from losing all of your cards.

[Koby]

I only really bring in Surgical against the following decks:

Dredge (they can win faster than us, esp with Cabal Therapy to disrupt)
Storm combo (generally ANT, rather than TES)
Reanimator
Miracles (replacing Gitaxian Probe as a source of information + SDT disruption)
Lands / Loam-Wasteland decks

I don't really bother against Loam decks however, since that's asking for a lot of things to go severely wrong.

[Acclimation]

it just seems harder to find white and serenity for a board full of hate then it is blue. ill add a another serenity and see what it does bit i think paying 1-2 for a petal and a turn later another 2 for serenity seems weaker.

Finding White is easy with 8 fetches.

@cog
Surgical is great as an information source against some FoW decks, if I bring one in, I'll sometimes hit a Brainstorm early on just to get some info and potentially leave them with awkward hands. Probably not optimal, but it works.



Sideboards should definitely be fluid based on your meta. In previous posts, I mentioned how I ran more Needles or more Extractions based on what I was seeing around me at any given tournament, sometimes bumping up to the full 15 if necessary.

At a larger event though, I highly recommend sticking with the current one, I haven't had any issues with the sideboard at any event larger than 50 people.

Being in a MUD heavy environment must be painful though, to hell with that.

[vizari]

Hey guys,
I just got done playing the deck on MTGO all night. I'm not a good player by any means, but I noticed a few things.
If I burn my ponder/brainstorms and fail to find combo, I feel like I just flounder for several turns while getting poked by goyfs and delvers.
Also, recovering from a Hymn or Thoughtseize, especially when they've also got counters for whatever they dont take, seems impossible.
As others have said, Entomb seems like the weak part of the combo. Has Snapcaster been discussed as a backup entomb? Intuition kind of does the same thing, but Snapcaster might be more versatile and gives us a body to sac to Therapy.

Too often I find myself with Goryo's/Shallow in hand and I find Emrakul or Gris in a ponder/storm, but I don't have any Therapy/Thoughtseize so I just shuffle them back in. Has anyone tried Careful Studys with 3-4 Gris?

I'm liking Mox Diamond a lot. If I get pretty low on life before I get Gris out and can only draw 14, it basically acts as another Lotus Petal to get Dark Rituals and Children out. I've also had it be the difference between getting my storm count or not.
This deck seems super tough to tune because its half storm, half reanimator so it suffers from both kinds of sideboard hate, and the more you go for the reanimator plan (ie careful studies and more gris as mentioned) the worse the storm plan gets/higher chance of fizzling. But during Gris draws, Careful Study might be useful. Draw 2, discard 2 lands - so it potentially trades 2 things that are of no use for more petals/rituals or the entomb we need for Emrakul. We can toss Children with it and reanimate, but with the benefit of drawing 2 additional cards. I really don't see the discard 2 as a drawback mid-combo; it's a better enabler than brainstorm and ponder at that stage.

Throwing out some random ideas - sideboard spinning darkness versus aggro? up storm count for free essentially and can potentially heal to allow an additional 7 draw.

Moat seems like it might warrant a SB slot if it weren't for white being so sparse.

What about Isochron Scepter? Goryo's/Shallow Grave, or an entomb, silence, etc. on a stick seems good in drawn out games vs control.

Another thing, why don't we use Orim's Chant instead of Silence? Simply because of Leyline of Sanctity / Misdirection? Seems like it would be worth the trade off.



Sorry if that was poorly written but I just spent 10 hours on MTGO and my mind is fried.

[cogitoergosum]

This is probably a bad idea, but back to the conversation of what cards are available as mana sources/ rituals to prevent combo from fizzling, how about a singleton burnt offering or cabal ritual to keep the combo going?

[Acclimation]

Hey guys,
I just got done playing the deck on MTGO all night. I'm not a good player by any means, but I noticed a few things.
If I burn my ponder/brainstorms and fail to find combo, I feel like I just flounder for several turns while getting poked by goyfs and delvers.
Also, recovering from a Hymn or Thoughtseize, especially when they've also got counters for whatever they dont take, seems impossible.
That happens with any combo deck, or any deck period, which is why BUG is a strong deck. Just have to fight through it and recognize that sometimes you aren't the one getting to do your beats.




As others have said, Entomb seems like the weak part of the combo. Has Snapcaster been discussed as a backup entomb? Intuition kind of does the same thing, but Snapcaster might be more versatile and gives us a body to sac to Therapy.
Snapcaster was discussed a few pages back. Some people liked it, but I'm not sure if it got dropped from their lists. There is probably a really solid SCM build that we haven't made up yet, probably one that runs a higher land count so you can regularly reach 3-4 mana for SCM+spell.

Intuition I tried personally, and didn't like it. 3 mana is too much for this deck (or at least my build).

That is why we run Lim-Dul's Vault in the list, it helps us find Entomb or any other business spell, and is reliably castable in our deck.


Too often I find myself with Goryo's/Shallow in hand and I find Emrakul or Gris in a ponder/storm, but I don't have any Therapy/Thoughtseize so I just shuffle them back in. Has anyone tried Careful Studys with 3-4 Gris?
This is another thing people have tried in the past, and was discussed somewhat recently too. Some people liked how it played and set their lists up to be closer to a reanimator build. Personally, I don't like the CDA that Study brings, and running more than 2 Griselbrand doesn't sound ideal to me.



This deck seems super tough to tune because its half storm, half reanimator so it suffers from both kinds of sideboard hate, and the more you go for the reanimator plan (ie careful studies and more gris as mentioned) the worse the storm plan gets/higher chance of fizzling. But during Gris draws, Careful Study might be useful. Draw 2, discard 2 lands - so it potentially trades 2 things that are of no use for more petals/rituals or the entomb we need for Emrakul. We can toss Children with it and reanimate, but with the benefit of drawing 2 additional cards. I really don't see the discard 2 as a drawback mid-combo; it's a better enabler than brainstorm and ponder at that stage.

Throwing out some random ideas - sideboard spinning darkness versus aggro? up storm count for free essentially and can potentially heal to allow an additional 7 draw.

Moat seems like it might warrant a SB slot if it weren't for white being so sparse.

What about Isochron Scepter? Goryo's/Shallow Grave, or an entomb, silence, etc. on a stick seems good in drawn out games vs control.

Another thing, why don't we use Orim's Chant instead of Silence? Simply because of Leyline of Sanctity / Misdirection? Seems like it would be worth the trade off.


Going back to Careful Study, I've noticed that the times I need to dig more mid combo but can't draw 7 and have enough mana to cast a cantrip happen less than the games that I can't find the missing mana to continue going off.

For the sideboard ideas:

What aggro decks? We are faster than all of the Aggro decks in the format, and the cards we bring in against these decks are to fight off any sort of hate piece they bring in against combo decks, which can often be something that isn't a creature. Upping storm count isn't something that's necessary against these decks, since our combo provides enough storm to win (rit entomb shallow grave, swing with Griselbrand, petal rit rit tendrils=21 life loss/damage). Using it before combo is highly unlikely, and mid combo not terribly relevant, IMO.

Why Moat? With 8 fetches, we can make WW happen, but at 4 mana? What does Moat do for us, where do you want to bring it in?

Scepter is an interesting suggestion, but I feel that it's a slow one.

Orim's Chant targets, and Misdirection is a commonly played spell, on top of LLOS. We don't need to spend WW to prevent attacking, that's slowing us down.


Out of curiosity, what decks did you play against? What list were you playing? Since you admit to being a "not good player," then there are probably lots of small things that you are doing incorrectly that we can help you with. The deck isn't an easy one to play, but we can help you to be a better player.






@cogitoergosum

The problem I have with Burnt Offering is that it requires a creature on the field. Children does nothing to fuel this, and while Griselbrand will give us all of the mana, I feel that the card will be dead more often than not.

Cabal Ritual isn't a bad one, but the 2 cmc cost is rough.

I've always felt that my bottleneck mid combo was not drawing a Petal type effect to continue, and Cabal Ritual isn't easily cast in that situation.

I think a Snapcaster Mage build could get away with a singleton Culling the Weak though. Not sure what the most optimal build would be for that though.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm off and on with Snapcaster. I like him, but my list doesn't stay the same for long. I'm always testing different things. I can say to a solid conclusion that Snapcaster is very bad in any Tin Fins version that runs any Dazes. Discard and Silence effects only. The obvious problem is that it occasionally interferes with Shallow Grave's antics when it's in the graveyard. The deck can handle it, but you have to be a pretty good player and on your game to use him to his pinnacle best, and also not tank on any given game you forget about the bad synergies. Hard to do for 9+ rounds.

I play 2 Careful Study as I too personally think that the bottlenecking at Entomb is tough to stomach, and I'm somewhat unlucky. I like it, although sometimes its worse than a ponder. It doubles as a "shuffle effect" after a bad brainstorm. moves the top two to the yard. It's not ideal, but anything better won't be printed; just too broken.

Serenity is good. I guess in straight UB builds it would be more appropriate to use Hurkyl's Recall, but here I prefer the Serenity. Hits enchantments. Counterbalance and Rest in Peace. This is valuable in ways that Recall can't hold a candle to.

Vizari mentioned the aggro matchup, and Acclimation asked which aggro decks. My contribution to this would be: Merfolk. In my opinion, it's the premier legacy aggro deck. I realize that goblins is most people's first choice as "premier" aggro decks go, but I playtest against merfolk often and it's...rough. Between Cursecatcher, Daze, FoW, and Standstill it can really get you. That would be enough to go through, but then there's Wastelands and a fair amount of pressure. Massacre is worthless here as it's first off, not free here, and second, it's bad against a list of 10-14 lords. I'm not sure yet exactly what is the best way to win. I do know that boarding out 3 Probes for 3 Silence helps a lot. Paying any life in this matchup is a risk. Don't Thoughtseize unless you are going off, it hurts too much. Therapy on Force/Daze (it's a toss-up). Also, you can put in Needle if you want to name Cursecatcher. It's hit or miss, but can name Vial as well. I haven't boarded it in and hit it pre-combo, so I'm not sure it's worth it.

I don't think additional ritual effects are going to really do much. This deck is kind of like a lottery, and when you have it going it's good. Otherwise...well, you play it. You know.

-ABC

[.dk]

@cogitoergosum

The problem I have with Burnt Offering is that it requires a creature on the field. Children does nothing to fuel this, and while Griselbrand will give us all of the mana, I feel that the card will be dead more often than not.

Cabal Ritual isn't a bad one, but the 2 cmc cost is rough.

I've always felt that my bottleneck mid combo was not drawing a Petal type effect to continue, and Cabal Ritual isn't easily cast in that situation.

I think a Snapcaster Mage build could get away with a singleton Culling the Weak though. Not sure what the most optimal build would be for that though.


Richard Cheese and I tested Burnt Offering in some of the original iterations of the deck - it was ALMOST good enough, but as you mentioned, only good post combo phase. Similar but less pronounced with Cabal Ritual. We need cards that are good before and after - that's why LDV works so well. I didn't like either of them for those reasons, at any rate.

[Wombo Combo]

Not sure if this has been already discussed in the thread, but I made a dark depths transformational sideboard for this deck. It's probably not good, but it's fun to troll people on cockatrice with.

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Expedition Map

[Richard Cheese]

Not sure if this has been already discussed in the thread, but I made a dark depths transformational sideboard for this deck. It's probably not good, but it's fun to troll people on cockatrice with.

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Expedition Map

Well, trolling people is basically what this deck is about. Also I love janky transformational sideboards. How has it worked out?

Also, what the hell just happened in here?

[Wombo Combo]

Well, trolling people is basically what this deck is about. Also I love janky transformational sideboards. How has it worked out?

Also, what the hell just happened in here?

It was hard to tell with so many people rage quitting on me. It seems pretty consistent at finding the combo. Usually it's easy to bait out a wasteland on your dual land when they don't expect it. I didn't really bring in the sideboard until game 3 a lot of the time because I wanted to see how much hate they were bringing against me. I think if you know they have two types of hate post board (pretty much any deck in DTB section), then it should be brought in game two.

[Tachikoma]

Hi, Everyone,

I'm back on Tin Fins after a break on the other side of the meta (where people die and pay taxes :)
Addiction to T1 kills returned fast ;)

In fact I tried to move a little bit out of plain vanilla Tin Fins.
Someone pointed out earlier the good result of this Next Level Reanimator build
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6655&d=238254&f=LE
which I saw also doing well in some other trials here in Paris (along with standard Reanimator which keep on winning here and there)
I simply hybridized it with Tin Fins ... pretty easy in fact since they added dark rituals in the equation compared to the first NLR lists.

After a few tuning the result is this list

//Main 61 cards

//Kills
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony

//Graveyard stuff
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate

//Cantrip
4 Brainstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe

//Protection
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Daze
3 Force of Will

//IMS, 3 moxen to be 99,9999% fizzle proof :)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond

//13 Lands, I go down to 12 post-side if no wasteland or such...
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp

//Sideboard 15 cards
//Trying this against chalice and counterbalance ...
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
//
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
1 Serenity
1 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
// Find any of the above :)
2 Lim-Dul's Vault


As you can see it's nothing super new and spectacular, but it turned out to work well in situations I was in pain with the regular build.
(I've been playing the regular one quite extensively until the end of last year, including big events like last BoM, that said I can't account for any spectacular results :)

After playing it on Cockatrice + a 40 men monthly Legacy here in Paris here are the first impressions (there is probably more tuning to be done though)
+Having 8 ways to put Gris in the yard is the main difference, you care a lot less having your entomb discarded or countered, it feels a lot less fragile overall
+Although it's always the same question of taste, counters feel a lot better to me, in my experience that one mana to clear the way by discard/silence often delayed the combo turn out of the short "win window" we have against tough matchups. + protection when on the draw is definitely priceless.
-Card disadvantage (Fow, Careful ...) ... lots of card disadvantage .... many times if you go off and kill it doesn't really matter, but some times it does and overall it makes the build feel "heavier"
-4 Griselbrand = potential dead draws (although I noticed there is a high amount of Hymn to Tourach played these days :)

I'm wondering if I should get LDV back in the main (and how ...) as it was my beloved card in the standard build (I was running 3 main :)
It's a lot less mandatory with 8 "put in the grave" effects but at the same time it works well with Careful Study, and is the best "recycle on Chrome Mox" thing we have...

[Tachikoma]

I'll add the report for the monthly Legacy I just mentioned where I finished at a decent 8th position (3-1-1).
Lots of BUGs and Death and Taxes around, I managed to dodge Miracles which are popular these days.

Round 1 against BUG delver 1-2
- Game 1 : I keep a no land hand with Entomb, Shallow, Goryo, Dark Rit, Grisel, Fow, Careful .. and is as one can expect punished by not drawing any land in 5 turns. I managed to keep my Gris in the yard, but 5 turns is way too long when discard, CA and counters run on the other side.
- Game 2 : No protection but double entomb, Goryo+Shallow, and dark rit, so Go off, he let the dark ritual go and countered entomb, so I re-entombed, next turn was it :)
- Game 3 : 5 lands and no business spell, then the same at 6 card, then the same at 5 ... 4 ... 3 was BS and reanimation ... although I did win some games after mulliganning to 3, BUG is definitely not the good candidate for it :)

SB was +1 CoV+1 Echoing+1 Needle+LDV -2 Probe-1 Cabal-1 Grisel

Round 2 against Belcher 2-0
- Game 1 I have a T2 kill so I land he starts and spits 20 Goblins or so, then it's T2 so ... :)
- Game 2 He starts with 18 Goblins this time, I have a T2 kill again so I take a 18 hit, and go off the turn after, mox and petals are in the 7 I draw, as well as another entomb and a reanimate, so go for Children, the 7 next contains Shallow, mox diamond and dark ritual, so the engine is on until Tendrill .. that was close :)

SB was +1 Echoing+1 Needle+1 Flusterstorm -2 Cabal-1 Probe

Round 3 against a Standstill BUG control thing 1-1
- Game 1 I go for a T1 kill with Fow protection ... but not against double FoW :) ... talking about card disadvantage I'm hellbent after this ! then came 2 DRS which slowly killed me.
- Game 2 took ages ... He countered every single card I played : I hit 2 flusterstorm, 2 Fow and a spell snare !! but the counterpart is that he had nothing dangerous to play, the Creeping Tar pit he landed remained still for a while as he didn't want to tap out. When I hit a third Fow (!!) I'm pretty out of gas with only Griselbrand and a land in hand but LDV came the turn after and the next five included Careful Study Dark ritual and reanimation ... I went off but needed to go the Draw my deck-Tendrill way and it ended up to be the exact bottom of my deck :)
- Game 3 was another locked game without enough time to finish, my last move was a hardcast Griselbrand which was of course countered :)

SB was +1 Needle+1 Cov+1 Duress+1 LDV -1 Grisel-not sure what else i sided out here probably some counters

Round 4 against Esper Stoneblade 2-0

- Game 1 I start, keep a good hand with only one land but a probe, which I play he knows me so guesses what I'm playing and says "you can kill me for free go on" as there are no counters in his hand. But all i can do is entomb and end up mana screwed again ... He was beating me with a Nemesis and I was at 5 when a Careful Study finally gave me 2 petals and I goryo for Gris, he Pierce, I Fow, He Daze to get my second petal away, I attack draw 7, another mox and a land, entomb and a bunch of reanimation spells, I flashback Cabal for Griselbrand and pass ... then looking back at my hand I see Entomb and ... Reanimate ... but anyway another Nemesis hit after I Goryo again, and he concedes.
- Game 2 I go off T2 Daze protected

SB was +1 Cov+1 Echoing+2 LDV -1 Grisel-1 reanimate-2 probe

Round 5 against Eva Green (poor notes here...) 2-1
- Game 1 I probe sees no counter, and go off freely a few turns later, Tendrill way as he Diabolic Edicted me
- Game 2 I mulligan down to 5 with an acceptable hand but only a USea ... he prevented me to go off with discard and wasteland got me mana screwed. I don't remember how things exactly went, only that he revealed 5 lands in a row with Bob, that the first land I draw after being wastelanded to death was a basic Island, and that he managed to dodge Griselbrand with an Hymnn to tourach while I had only 3 cards in hand ... and looking at my life total sheet, it looks like I've been killed by Bob alone, maybe joined by a Tarmo for the lethal hit :)
- Game 3 is a T3-4 kill I only remember protecting my combo pieces from discard with a BS.

[Tachikoma]

I'm off and on with Snapcaster.

I've been trying Noxious Revival as a cheaper alternative to Snapcaster without the Shallow Grave interaction problem.
The starting point for me was: ok I lost too many games by being discarded entomb T1 and even if i usually managed to find another one thanks to cantrips and LDV it was often too late.
So having a way to get it back for free sounded good ... but I never really found the correct way to incorporate it (main ? sideboard ? and what is worth to remove for it ?)

[vizari]

I've been trying Noxious Revival as a cheaper alternative to Snapcaster without the Shallow Grave interaction problem.
The starting point for me was: ok I lost too many games by being discarded entomb T1 and even if i usually managed to find another one thanks to cantrips and LDV it was often too late.
So having a way to get it back for free sounded good ... but I never really found the correct way to incorporate it (main ? sideboard ? and what is worth to remove for it ?)

Have you tried running 4 Careful Study and 4 Griselbrand without the FoW and Daze?
8 reanimate spells (3 goryo, 1 reanimate, 4 shallow)
9-10 ways to bin from hand (4 cabal therapy, 1-2 thoughtseize, 4 careful study)
5 reanimate targets + 4 entomb tutors = 9

This seems like it would be a lot more consistent. Perhaps a few more fetches to make up for lost Ponder shuffling?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It seems to me that you haven't read this entire thread. If you had, you would realize that yes, this has been tested, no, it isn't good enough for the majority of the people who play the list, ponder is to good to completely axe, and your list is closer to next-level reanimator than tin fins.

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[Richard Cheese]

Has anyone had time to test the 15x Shadowborn Apostle sideboard?

[TheKingslayer]

Has anyone had time to test the 15x Shadowborn Apostle sideboard?

lol.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sounds bad, Richard.

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[Richard Cheese]

Sounds bad, Richard.

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We keep talking about the merits of a man-plan anyway, this is totally the best of both worlds.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It sacrifices all other matchups. I'd rather have my good, tested sideboard than 15 1/1 retards that when you draw ungodly amounts of them gets you a griz. Try it out and tell me your results, but my hypothesis is that it will blow.

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[Richard Cheese]

It sacrifices all other matchups. I'd rather have my good, tested sideboard than 15 1/1 retards that when you draw ungodly amounts of them gets you a griz. Try it out and tell me your results, but my hypothesis is that it will blow.

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You're probably right. I'm thinking 14 of the Apostles and one Demon of Death's Gate is probably the way to go.

"Hello, I'd like one ticket to Value Town please."

"Oh, I'm sorry sir, but the gentleman across from you just bought the last one."

[Acclimation]

You guys aren't playing the 15 Craw Wurm sideboard?


No wonder y'all got no results.


Slightly more serious on topic, I'm loathe to add creatures that aren't Griselbrand, Emrakul, or Children. We have no room and no need. The cuter we get, the worse we do.

Keep it simple, keep it lean, get dem fast kills.

Bonus points if you do dog barks while swinging in for lethal. Intimidate them, and blast 2 Chainz when you leave the table.

[Megadeus]

Has anyone had time to test the 15x Shadowborn Apostle sideboard?

Cant tell if trolling or not, but I really hope not.

[Richard Cheese]

Cant tell if trolling or not, but I really hope not.

I'll probably do it one weekend just for shits and giggles, just need to find the 15 pimpest Apostles possible.

Edit: Aaaaaaaaand 15 Korean Apostles are on their way. Gotta love/hate that Internet.

[Acclimation]

I'll probably do it one weekend just for shits and giggles, just need to find the 15 pimpest Apostles possible.

Edit: Aaaaaaaaand 15 Korean Apostles are on their way. Gotta love/hate that Internet.

Bonus points if you draw in sunglasses on all of them.


Has anyone else have some fun stories about the deck from recent events?

Been itching to play, but haven't been able to recently.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm moving to Colorado ( :D @ .dk and Richard Cheese) and the lgs there puts on the occasional legacy win-a-box tourney. I will be winning most of these events. Probably with tin fins.

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[Richard Cheese]

I'm moving to Colorado ( :D @ .dk and Richard Cheese) and the lgs there puts on the occasional legacy win-a-box tourney. I will be winning most of these events. Probably with tin fins.

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Really? What part?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Glenwood Springs. Girlfriend is starting school there in the fall. The Jesters Court is the lgs.


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[.dk]

Ah, that's a ways from either of us, but maybe we'll see you at some of our Legacy IQ's or something in the Denver area sometime? :)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Indeed. Denver is gonna be awesome. We could all play Tin Fins and just ruin the meta.

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[.dk]

Hmmm... Tin Fins mirrors... Have only played that against Richard Cheese a long long time ago. Sounds awful. ;)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yeah, we ID if that occurs.

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[Acclimation]

I've always wondered what the Tinfins Mirror would look like.

I figure it would just turn into a friendly fist fight in the parking lot, since it would be less painful.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'll be Edward Norton, you can be Brad Pitt.

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[phazonmutant]

I've always wondered what the Tinfins Mirror would look like.

I figure it would just turn into a friendly fist fight in the parking lot, since it would be less painful.

Eh, combo mirrors aren't that bad. It's either over quickly or very interesting.

The TinFins mirror looks a lot like the TES matchup or mirror. You're both playing Silence + discard, so there's some interesting dynamics like when to leave up Silence, Entomb EOT into main-phase Reanimate shenanigans, and double-Silence blowouts. One tip - unless you have perfect hand knowledge, never play more than one combo piece in a turn without double Silence and a way to cast both. They always have the Silence into the combo.

[.dk]

Here is how Richard Cheese and I played the mirror match when we got paired against each other at GP Atlanta in a grinder the night before the event:

Richard turn 1's me twice in a row. He then paid my entry into the next grinder as compensation. :)

[Acclimation]

Eh, combo mirrors aren't that bad. It's either over quickly or very interesting.

The TinFins mirror looks a lot like the TES matchup or mirror. You're both playing Silence + discard, so there's some interesting dynamics like when to leave up Silence, Entomb EOT into main-phase Reanimate shenanigans, and double-Silence blowouts. One tip - unless you have perfect hand knowledge, never play more than one combo piece in a turn without double Silence and a way to cast both. They always have the Silence into the combo.

True. I tend to treat most combo match ups as a pseudo mirror, we both run on a similar axis and utilize similar tools to finish the job. Just have to either be faster or outmaneuver with Silencios.

Maybe we can all have a Gentleman's Agreement to ID, then go get a beer (or other agreed upon drink).


@s.a.b

I love being the imaginary friend that portrays the confident, chaotic side of man!

[Koby]

Richard turn 1's me twice in a row.

The only true way to play Tin Fins!

[Richard Cheese]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0w-U1AYTVJQ/U1sKu7YudlI/AAAAAAAAAZM/SalETqiTwxA/w1256-h929-no/14+-+1

Oh it's on.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I lol'ed. 1. 2. 3. Do eet.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[DavidHernandez]

Bonus points if you draw in sunglasses on all of them.


Has anyone else have some fun stories about the deck from recent events?

Been itching to play, but haven't been able to recently.
Yeah, 2 weeks ago in San Diego Joey V. played against me. He went off turn one both times. Also, last Thursday I watched him Daze an opponent to protect his combo. I really think Daze belongs in the deck. Also, the Mox Diamond works wonders. I think the following list we've come up with stays true to the intent of Tin Fins and adds combo-turn protection:

// Deck: Daze Fins (61)

// Lands
3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

// Creatures
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Griselbrand

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
3 Ponder
4 Shallow Grave
1 Tendrils of Agony

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 3 Silence
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

[tadiou]

If you're going to play daze, why not just play pact of negation? If you're only looking at protecting the combo turn (which I'd assume you are, based on your description of why daze), isn't it just better?

[DavidHernandez]

Because Pact at the wrong time or in the wrong situation loses games, while Daze can be amazing in more situations. For example, I Dazed an opponents Show and Tell which gave me the opportunity to get my pieces together within two more turns and then win. Pact would have been useless.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

[Wess]

Haven't played Tinfins in awhile, I switched to playing Re-animator, which feels much more consistent and resilient to hate. Though, since I sold my FOW's ahead of the MOC's give-aways, I "sleeved up" UB Tinfins, which I think I finally found the ideal sideboard configuration. It was good fun blowing opponents away on turn 0 again :-) ...went 13-1 in the matches I played over the last 2 days.


someguy604 (4-0)
Legacy Daily #7035737 on 04/30/2014

Main Deck
60 cards

2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
13 lands

1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Griselbrand
3 creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Lim-DÆl's Vault
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
2 Reanimate
3 Shallow Grave
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Thoughtseize
44 other spells

Sideboard
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Swan Song

[D@N]

y the split on dread and massacre? isnt massacre better since you dont have to pay 1B through thalia? or is it to jam against a uw deck naming it with a meddling mage? also with so few griselbrands mb do u have trouble binning a dude with only entomb since u likely wont be able to discard urself into a fatty? I also took a bit of a break but now im wondering with we should follow storm.and reanimator and put in a trop or bayou mb and sb some abrupt decays since it hits all our problem perments and cant be countered.

[Michael Keller]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0w-U1AYTVJQ/U1sKu7YudlI/AAAAAAAAAZM/SalETqiTwxA/w1256-h929-no/14+-+1

Oh it's on.

You could always Shallow Grave Protean Hulk into play, flashback Therapy or something, get six Apostles and then go get Griselbrand...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Michael, that's pretty cool tech. I think I am going to do that. I wish I could completely sidestep the graveyard, though. May dwell on it a bit

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Wess]

y the split on dread and massacre? isnt massacre better since you dont have to pay 1B through thalia? or is it to jam against a uw deck naming it with a meddling mage? also with so few griselbrands mb do u have trouble binning a dude with only entomb since u likely wont be able to discard urself into a fatty? I also took a bit of a break but now im wondering with we should follow storm.and reanimator and put in a trop or bayou mb and sb some abrupt decays since it hits all our problem perments and cant be countered.

Hey D@N, the split on dread and massacre is because you only need one dread, but, phyrexian revoker will still mess you up, so massacre is necessary. Also of course, massacre is good against other decks, elves, RUG, etc. I play agaist RUG pyromancer, deathrites and death and taxes a lot on MTGO, thus, 4 sideboard slots is adequate. The 1 B for thalia isn't an issue.

Getting Griselbrand in the bin isn't an issue either, Lim-dul's vault is very effective. Also, you have to know when to mulligan aggressively.

To be honest though, despite my win streak, Reanimator is by far the better deck. Tinfins is more of a one trick pony...but really fun to play.

[Richard Cheese]

You could always Shallow Grave Protean Hulk into play, flashback Therapy or something, get six Apostles and then go get Griselbrand...

Oh my god you just gave me the jankiest boner.

[Acclimation]

Oh my god you just gave me the jankiest boner.


http://youtu.be/pusZXECS0mM



LDV real good at finding us Entomb and other pieces, making things like Careful Study not needed.

I still think that White splash is better than straight UB, having access to Silence and Serenity is really good, and Children gives us that janky goodness.

[Richard Cheese]

http://youtu.be/pusZXECS0mM



LDV real good at finding us Entomb and other pieces, making things like Careful Study not needed.

I still think that White splash is better than straight UB, having access to Silence and Serenity is really good, and Children gives us that janky goodness.

He's got Children in there, just no white lands.

@Wess, the list is interesting. Curious, have you missed the second Griselbrand for the ability to do tricksy stuff like Entomb in response to DRS, etc. Also, since you're only running one Griz, have you tested with counters over Discard?

[Koby]

You could always Shallow Grave Protean Hulk into play, flashback Therapy or something, get six Apostles and then go get Griselbrand...

So this is a red herring...

You've managed to get Protean Hulk into the graveyard (via Entomb I'm guessing), and you already have Shallow Grave... so why do you need to spend an extra sideboard card (Hulk) and an extra mana (Apostles), and an extra card (Therapy) to put a non-hasty Griselbrand into play that can't attack and draw an extra 7 cards?

[Wess]

@ Richard: Daze + Force is better than cabal and thought-seize IMO, the whole reason I ran it is because I sold my FOW's ahead of the MOCS, which I since bought back. I'm always happy to actually see deathrite shaman on the table, its a very weak card against us. Seeing it usually means the opponent won't have more serious sideboard hate. Game 1, they will usually tap it the next turn to accelerate another spell (unless they thoughtseized us). Or, they will have to keep the DRS and a land open to counter us, which slows them down a lot and gives us time.

Every decision I made in my decklist is to maximize speed and make the deck more consistent:

2 Reanimate- This increases the odds of going off Turn 1 with Petal + Reanimate, along with the usual dark ritual + SG or GV. It's also better in Show and tell and mirror matches if playing black discard over counters. Thirdly, it allows us to more cheaply reanimate children when we are comboing and stuck for mana sources.

No Colour Splash - Running a 3rd colour, white or green is a big mistake, IMO. The deck has serious land/mana stability issues as it is, playing additional colours slows the deck down and makes it more inconsistent. It's also almost impossible to cast lim-dul's vault reliably

1 of each creature- Allows room for more disruption/speed and less dead draws

[Michael Keller]

So this is a red herring...

You've managed to get Protean Hulk into the graveyard (via Entomb I'm guessing), and you already have Shallow Grave... so why do you need to spend an extra sideboard card (Hulk) and an extra mana (Apostles), and an extra card (Therapy) to put a non-hasty Griselbrand into play that can't attack and draw an extra 7 cards?

The fact everyone was actually discussing Apostles was a joke (to me, anyhow) to begin with.

I just tossed everyone a bone to play with, that's all.

[Richard Cheese]

So this is a red herring...

You've managed to get Protean Hulk into the graveyard (via Entomb I'm guessing), and you already have Shallow Grave... so why do you need to spend an extra sideboard card (Hulk) and an extra mana (Apostles), and an extra card (Therapy) to put a non-hasty Griselbrand into play that can't attack and draw an extra 7 cards?

Yes, using Shallow Grave is incorrect. Clearly that board plan would also call for some Natural Orders and Dryad Arbors.

[Acclimation]

Very much disagree on the land instability. The only times I have felt hindered by my mana base have been when I play super greedy and keep no land or 1 land hands.

I have no issues casting LDV when I need to, and always am able to find the right colors I need to go off, cantrip, and cast white spells.

This is probably because I'm used to the 5c ddft mana base after playing that for a year in a wasteland/stifle heavy meta, but 3 colors isn't an issue for the deck in my opinion.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Wess]

Well, this thread is dead, and I'm bored, so, a couple of things:

I look for excuses to "sleeve" up this deck, and .... June.11th will go down as the day of TINFINS...bwahahah.
In case anyone doesn't know, right now, its virtually a scam to play a 2 man, you lose, and you lose 2 tickets, you win, and you...ummmm...breakeven on a $2.40 Theros booster. On June 11th, you win and you will get a $7 Vintage Masters booster, assuming a 50/50 win ratio, that's almost 1/2 price. So, my strategy will be to play tinfins, either win or lose in 5 mins.

Aside from that, I did play the deck in the dailies yesterday, played against a guy who just built a deck to enter the legacy format. Turn 0 kills both games, going off through his FOW. Was nice way to welcome someone to Legacy :)

[D@N]

Wess- i asked this before but what do u think of abrupt decay instead of serenity or other spots. Both reanimator and storm have adapted it and we are basicly a hybrid of both. We have more then one way to get kids into play and lotus petal could do extra work.

[Acclimation]

Wess- i asked this before but what do u think of abrupt decay instead of serenity or other spots. Both reanimator and storm have adapted it and we are basicly a hybrid of both. We have more then one way to get kids into play and lotus petal could do extra work.

The answer to that comes down to how much you use Silence and how often Serenity fails to get the job done for you.

If you rarely use Silence and Serenity never works, then you can splash green and work it.

Going 4c with this deck isn't terribly recommended, since we are a low land deck wanting to fire off as fast as we can, adding a 4th color stretches us too far for no real benefit.

Additionally, stretching our Petals further seems like a sad time.


You can certainly try it and see how it works.

[Wess]

Wess- i asked this before but what do u think of abrupt decay instead of serenity or other spots. Both reanimator and storm have adapted it and we are basicly a hybrid of both. We have more then one way to get kids into play and lotus petal could do extra work.


Hey D@N, sorry for the late reply. I'm not a big fan of splashing colours, I think white is a big mistake, let alone green. You really want a consistent mana base to cast U & B turn 1 and 2, Lim-dul's vault is essential to the deck and you need to reliably cast it, which can be hard as it is when we're so light on land. Playing just UB allows you to run a couple basics which is essential against a wasteland meta. Obviously, if you're playing UB you don't want to run any scrubland or bayou either so that you can have an dualland island in play always.
I mean, there are a lot of reasons not to splash, abrupt can't really do anything chain of vapor can't. Abrupt is uncounterable, but, if an opponent has the counter, they will counter your combo anyways, so, its not that beneficial (except against counterbalance, obv).

[D@N]

I was thinking more against chalice but ya after testing tonight im switching some things around and adding another lim duls vault.

[warfordium]

gravebumping (!>!$!#>>>!>?!??!) this thread in advance of this Sunday's shindig in Portland. I know there's a fellow PDX Tinfins player of tattoos, chops, and excellent taste in metal. PM me if you're on here and you'll be at the Legacy Open; I'm headed down tomorrow morning for a few days of beers, biking, and chaining Little Big Burger and Pine State Biscuits in advance.

\m/

[Richard Cheese]

gravebumping (!>!$!#>>>!>?!??!) this thread in advance of this Sunday's shindig in Portland. I know there's a fellow PDX Tinfins player of tattoos, chops, and excellent taste in metal. PM me if you're on here and you'll be at the Legacy Open; I'm headed down tomorrow morning for a few days of beers, biking, and chaining Little Big Burger and Pine State Biscuits in advance.

\m/

That was maybe the most Portland thing anyone's ever said on this site.

Good luck on Sunday!

Edit: And if it makes you feel any better, I went off turn one in back-to-back games the other night, both off mulls to 5. Deck is a monster...at least when I'm testing.

[Koby]

Good luck and may you sac a lot of Children!

[Elfkid]

Hi there guys! Is there any updated decklist I can see?

And a few questions:

How is the deck vs miracles.deck?
And vs delver.deck?

Thanks and regards!^^

[Richard Cheese]

Hi there guys! Is there any updated decklist I can see?

And a few questions:

How is the deck vs miracles.deck?
And vs delver.deck?

Thanks and regards!^^

I don't know that anyone has made any major changes to the list in a while. Personally I'd rather play against Miracles than anything with Delver, because life total is important and Delver decks have about 200x the pressure of Miracles.

[Koby]

The skill floor required vs both of these matchups is quite high. It also depends on the strength of hands kept by both players.

Inconclusive is the best estimate I would give.

[Acclimation]

Hi there guys! Is there any updated decklist I can see?

And a few questions:

How is the deck vs miracles.deck?
And vs delver.deck?

Thanks and regards!^^

Here's the list I've been championing for awhile now:

Instant (21)
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
3x Goryo's Vengeance
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Shallow Grave

Land (14)
4x Marsh Flats
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Tundra
3x Underground Sea

Sorcery (17)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
1x Reanimate
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Thoughtseize

Creature (4)
1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Griselbrand

Sideboard (14)
3x Chain of Vapor
2x Massacre
2x Pithing Needle
2x Serenity
3x Silence
2x Surgical Extraction

Artifact (5)
1x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal

Sideboard (14)
3x Chain of Vapor
2x Massacre
2x Pithing Needle
2x Serenity
3x Silence
2x Surgical Extraction

No big changes, yes, the numbers are intentional.

As mentioned above, both match-ups are skill dependent and take either a good amount of practice or luck.

I personally feel pretty good against these decks, but I'm probably way too over confident with this deck. That being said, this deck isn't for the faint of heart.

[Nocley]

I'll be in Portland this weekend as well, running this if (when) I scrub out of standard and need to alleviate my rage. Maybe if I make enough bad decisions I'll run it in the open. Damn myself being so intrigued by this deck.

Also, pack rats in the sideboard because why not

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[Technics]

Here's the list I've been championing for awhile now:

Instant (21)
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
3x Goryo's Vengeance
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Shallow Grave

Land (14)
4x Marsh Flats
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Tundra
3x Underground Sea

Sorcery (17)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
1x Reanimate
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Thoughtseize

Creature (4)
1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Griselbrand

Sideboard (14)
3x Chain of Vapor
2x Massacre
2x Pithing Needle
2x Serenity
3x Silence
2x Surgical Extraction

Artifact (5)
1x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal

Sideboard (14)
3x Chain of Vapor
2x Massacre
2x Pithing Needle
2x Serenity
3x Silence
2x Surgical Extraction

No big changes, yes, the numbers are intentional.

As mentioned above, both match-ups are skill dependent and take either a good amount of practice or luck.

I personally feel pretty good against these decks, but I'm probably way too over confident with this deck. That being said, this deck isn't for the faint of heart.
Im running the exact same list except +1 needle -1 chain due to the my inability to play around DRS. So far that list has been amazingly solid for me as well.

[capricorn]

Hi All,

I recently picked this deck back up after a while of playing Shardless BUG. Really, burn bothered me so I decided to play with lifelink again.

Anyway, picked up a build from a couple pages ago that I liked for the last week where I could hit stores unprepped. Deck performed well and it seems to make sense to me that the more people side REB for Show and Tell The better this deck seems to be. Of course the main reason it was good was the absence of those playing miracles.

Going to an SCG event this weekend and am bringing Tin Fins. Expecting a heavy representation of Miracles and BUG. Looking for insights.

I have readdressed to use the list above but am thinking twice about the tundra only because of the sideboard strategy.

I actually changed the fetches a little to
2 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 misty rainforest

and I am debating having
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
in the sideboard specifically for Miracles. It would replace the Serenity and Silence as I can't imagine siding in either. Well, Silence against Delver I guess.


Anyway, any insights or Strategy for the Counter-top Lock?



Also stunned a seasoned Tin Fins player who had put the deck down when he realized I played 2 Reanimates. Got grisel off of one of them.

[Technics]

I actually changed the fetches a little to
2 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 misty rainforest

and I am debating having
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
in the sideboard specifically for Miracles. It would replace the Serenity and Silence as I can't imagine siding in either. Well, Silence against Delver I guess.


I would leave the fetches as they are, and add the bayou, but leave the Tundra. Cut a fetch to get there?

Then -2 Serenity, -1 Chain +3 Decay (from acc's list above)

[Acclimation]

So, playing against Counter Top is somewhat awkward from our perspective, but very doable.

Assuming Joe Lossett's list from this article back in April: (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28317_Leaving-A-Legacy-Runner-Up-With-Miracles.html)

They have 7 main board counterspells, the playset of counterbalance, and then a 1/1 split of reb/pyroblast, with 1 Snap and 1 Venser, and 2 Karakas, which is a lot of interaction.

My main goal in this game is to get a Griselbrand into the yard and just jam reanimation effects until one resolves. If you can resolve 1, then you can combo out and get Emrakul or Tendrils through that turn as well, or at least set yourself up the next turn to get in with Griselbrand again. We need to leverage discard hard against them, and I tend to bias hands with heavy disruption in this match-up.

In the sideboard, they have 1 Needle, 1 Relic, 2 RiP, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Pyro, 1 REB, and 1 Snare as likely cards to bring in against us, usually dropping the Terminus and JTMS to bring in 7 cards, usually Needle, Relic, RiP, Fluster, and Snare.

My sideboard plan has been:
-1 Reanimate -1 Goryo -1 Mox -4 Probe -1 Ponder
+3 Chain +2 Serenity +2 Needle

Chain of Vapor comes in, as it bounces all of those permanents and occasionally getting Counterbalance, Serenity wipes the board in those long games, and Needle names Karakas, Top, Relic, or even fetches as you see fit.

Reanimate comes out, since they have Swords and that makes it a waste of resources.
Mox is less necessary, since the game is likely to go long and we often need the cards we imprint.
Probe is almost always the first cut, since it's relatively low impact.
1 Ponder is a safe cut since we still have the full set of Brainstorms and the LDVs to handle our card selection needs.
Goryo gets cut as Shallow Grave is generally better. Now, we are going from 8 reanimation effects to 6, which makes the game 1 strat of bash reanimation spells until 1 resolves harder to do, but the counterhate we bring in allows us to play a more slow, controlling game.

For those keeping track, yes, I'm aware that we are taking out 8 and bringing 7. The list is 61/14, and there's some math reasons behind it, don't question it.

g2 and 3, we hit them hard with discard, and then make sure we can resolve our Griselbrands by utilizing hate cards.

It's a tough match-up, and a pretty big grind, but don't lose hope and give up. Stay calm, think straight, and just play tight, as well as hope that they don't draw well.

Serenity is a card that people tend to doubt. Don't. It's good- it does a lot of work, and is lifesaving if you play against the MUD decks in the jungle.

Silence is also great, it gives us an edge against opposing combo decks, as well as help against Delver.dec.

[mox toaster]

I've been playing Tin Fins on and off for a little while now, and there are a lot of matchups I still don't quite know how to play. The biggest question I have is, how to we play against the other Griselbrand decks, namely S&S and Reanimator? It seems to me that they are almost as fast as we are, with the added benefit of permission and redundancy. Given that the lines will vary based on the game, in general do we outrace them? Go for post-board silver bullets?

[Acclimation]

I've been playing Tin Fins on and off for a little while now, and there are a lot of matchups I still don't quite know how to play. The biggest question I have is, how to we play against the other Griselbrand decks, namely S&S and Reanimator? It seems to me that they are almost as fast as we are, with the added benefit of permission and redundancy. Given that the lines will vary based on the game, in general do we outrace them? Go for post-board silver bullets?

Discard and Silence effects.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So, playing against Counter Top is somewhat awkward from our perspective, but very doable.

Assuming Joe Lossett's list from this article back in April: (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28317_Leaving-A-Legacy-Runner-Up-With-Miracles.html)

They have 7 main board counterspells, the playset of counterbalance, and then a 1/1 split of reb/pyroblast, with 1 Snap and 1 Venser, and 2 Karakas, which is a lot of interaction.

Lossett is different from lots of other miracle players in his choices. Most miracles will only run 1 Karakas even when playing 4+ legendaries. The Blast effects are the same way. It's pretty meta dependent on both these topics, but I think that you are way more likely to see multiple Karakas and md'ed blast effects mainly at large events such as gp's and opens unless you have some seriously large number of blue players at your local.


My main goal in this game is to get a Griselbrand into the yard and just jam reanimation effects until one resolves. If you can resolve 1, then you can combo out and get Emrakul or Tendrils through that turn as well, or at least set yourself up the next turn to get in with Griselbrand again. We need to leverage discard hard against them, and I tend to bias hands with heavy disruption in this match-up.

In the sideboard, they have 1 Needle, 1 Relic, 2 RiP, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Pyro, 1 REB, and 1 Snare as likely cards to bring in against us, usually dropping the Terminus and JTMS to bring in 7 cards, usually Needle, Relic, RiP, Fluster, and Snare.

My sideboard plan has been:
-1 Reanimate -1 Goryo -1 Mox -4 Probe -1 Ponder
+3 Chain +2 Serenity +2 Needle

Chain of Vapor comes in, as it bounces all of those permanents and occasionally getting Counterbalance, Serenity wipes the board in those long games, and Needle names Karakas, Top, Relic, or even fetches as you see fit.

Reanimate comes out, since they have Swords and that makes it a waste of resources.
Mox is less necessary, since the game is likely to go long and we often need the cards we imprint.
Probe is almost always the first cut, since it's relatively low impact.
1 Ponder is a safe cut since we still have the full set of Brainstorms and the LDVs to handle our card selection needs.
Goryo gets cut as Shallow Grave is generally better. Now, we are going from 8 reanimation effects to 6, which makes the game 1 strat of bash reanimation spells until 1 resolves harder to do, but the counterhate we bring in allows us to play a more slow, controlling game.

For those keeping track, yes, I'm aware that we are taking out 8 and bringing 7. The list is 61/14, and there's some math reasons behind it, don't question it.

g2 and 3, we hit them hard with discard, and then make sure we can resolve our Griselbrands by utilizing hate cards.

It's a tough match-up, and a pretty big grind, but don't lose hope and give up. Stay calm, think straight, and just play tight, as well as hope that they don't draw well.

Serenity is a card that people tend to doubt. Don't. It's good- it does a lot of work, and is lifesaving if you play against the MUD decks in the jungle.

I love Serenity. Every time I play against my buddy who always runs mud, I break into song, "I need serenity" by Godsmack. It's better than Hurkyl's Recall by a large amount.


Silence is also great, it gives us an edge against opposing combo decks, as well as help against Delver.dec.

I've had mixed Results here. Maybe I can try playing tighter with my discard to help the Silence resolve, but then it's kind of a moot point. I also need to do better at just playing around daze.

[Acclimation]

Lossett is different from lots of other miracle players in his choices. Most miracles will only run 1 Karakas even when playing 4+ legendaries. The Blast effects are the same way. It's pretty meta dependent on both these topics, but I think that you are way more likely to see multiple Karakas and md'ed blast effects mainly at large events such as gp's and opens unless you have some seriously large number of blue players at your local.



I love Serenity. Every time I play against my buddy who always runs mud, I break into song, "I need serenity" by Godsmack. It's better than Hurkyl's Recall by a large amount.



I've had mixed Results here. Maybe I can try playing tighter with my discard to help the Silence resolve, but then it's kind of a moot point. I also need to do better at just playing around daze.


Fair enough. I've found that a lot of the Miracles players around me tend to skew towards Lossett's builds.

As far as Silences, it takes some practice to get used to using them effectively, and usage is going to differ based on each situation. Either way, it is a must counter card, and coupled with Discard can make for a lot of space.

[mox toaster]

Discard and Silence effects.

I was hoping that wouldn't be the answer :/

I can live with it, though.

[D@N]

well after a 6 month hiatus I'm back to playing this deck again. also updated the real estate.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j8/K-Mellion/Mobile%20Uploads/20140624_133253_1.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/K-Mellion/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140624_133253_1.jpg.html)

[Richard Cheese]

Went 4-2 this weekend at a 46-man SCG IQ. Here's the list and a short report:


4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate

3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtsieze

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats

SB:

3 Massacre
3 Pithing Needle
3 Silence
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Serenity
1 Surgical Extraction



Round 1 - RUG
Game 1
I manage to get rid of 2x Pierce and a Force through discard/baiting, but he had me at 6 with a flipped Delver and Bolt in hand. I resolve Entomb into Shallow on his attack step, thinking I've at least got a chance. Then he taps 2 and Ices my Grizzlebees down. Touché sir.
Game 2
I mull to a shitty 5, and he gets two early Delvers. They don't flip for a few turns so I think I'm alright, but he does throw a few bolts at my face. Do or die time and I finally find a Shallow Grave, but it gets dazed and the Delvers finally flip. This guy doesn't play much Legacy and had to read Entomb, but sometimes RUG just plays itself I guess.
0-1

Round 2 - High Tide
Game 1
I probe on turn 1 and see Flusterstorm as his only counter. Therapy and he Brainstorms it away, but I find another discard spell and he uses the Flusterstorm on it. I smell blood in the water so I just go for it, win with Children into Tendrils
Game 2
I open a hand with Griz, Land, Therapy, Entomb, Shallow Grave, a couple Silences. I'm guessing he's on Surgical as his grave hate, and since I can't really play around it early, I decide to just draw/discard Grizzlebees so I'll still have Entomb in hand to grab Emrakul. He Flusterstorm's my first discard, and I think he forced the Shallow Grave, which was fine because I'd found a Goryo's. Then he does Merchant Scroll for Surgical to hit all of my Onion Bursts, but between that and two fetches he's at 16 and only has like 2 cards in hand. I Entomb/Goryo's and spaghetti gets all over his face and lands. A couple Brainstorms and a fetch find me Children + Petal for Silence and he scoops up his cards.
1-1

Round 3 - Jund
Game 1
He plays Flats and passes, then Forest and passes. I have no idea what he's on but based on his lands I don't think it's anything I care about, so I just Entomb on his end step and go for it on my turn. Swing with Griz + Emmy for the win, immediately realize I'm an idiot for not probing to see what the hell he's playing.
Game 2
Boarded a couple Chains and a Needle, then keep a sketchy hand with 3x Entomb and Griselbrand. He hits me with a Duress and Hymn but only gets 1 Entomb, but he did hit my other land. I draw a Chrome Mox and decide to play it Imprinting Entomb to make sure I've got 2 mana on the board. He's hitting me with a Goyf but it's only 3/4, and I finally find a Goryo's the turn before he gets a Deathrite. Entomb on his end step and go for it on my turn, Children + Tendrils for the win. Afterwards realized I should have used the Therapy in my hand for the Mox so that I could go for Emrakul.
2-1

Round 4 - 4c Stoneblade
Game 1
I keep a loose hand with only basic Island, but it's got Probe and Brainstorm and I think Ritual/Entomb. I believe he duressed me and took Goryo's on his turn, I probe him and see no counters so I Brainstorm, hit Petal and Shallow grave and go off. Win with natural Tendrils post-attack.
Game 2
I don't really know what he's on, but I saw Deathrite game 1 so I bring in Needles and Chains. He got an early RiP, I tried to hardcast Griz, but he Pierced my first Dark Rit then played Mage on Griselbrand and beat me down with SFM into Batterskull before I could find a Chain.
Game 3
After seeing Meddling Mage in the previous game, I swapped the needles for Massacres. I keep a hand of Petal, Ritual, Entomb, Thoughtseize, Therapy, Reanimate, something. Super risky, but that's the name of the game with TinFins right? I petal into Dark Rit and Thoughtseize, seeing a Force and a Jace, and I'm so excited that I snap choose Force, don't write any of the other cards down, and go straight to Entomb/Reanimate. I decide to then sit on 10 life with Griselbrand in play, which was a huge mistake because on his turn he rips Karakas and uses it to play Needle on Griselbrand. I respond by getting 7 cards, but Chain isn't one of them and it goes downhill from there. We go back and forth for a while - I cast Children and beat him to 8, he gets a Mage, wastes my Sea and Scrubland, gets a Deathrite, I massacre, he taps out for something and I get another Griselbrand swing in to put him at 1, but he finds another Mage for Tendrils, another Deathrite, and never taps the Karakas again and I lose in turns. I really should have taken the Jace, then drawn 7 immediately to try to nab that Needle with Therapy. Just got way too excited and punted
2-2

Round 5 - AnT
Game 1
We both know what each other are on. He wins the roll, Preordains, and keeps both, so I Thoughtseize him on my turn rather than going for Entomb right away, but all I see is lands, Petal, Cabal Rit, and LED. Luckily he doesn't go off, I Entomb, he Duresses and sees I've got two Shallow Graves and a Brainstorm, so he takes the Brainstorm and blows the rest of his hand so he can tutor up a Cabal Rit and take the Graves. Then I topdeck Goryo's like a champ and win.
Game 2
He Pondered on Turn 1 and kept, so on my turn I fetched for Scrub into Children to shut off Tendrils, and play Chrome mox with Goryo's to Therapy myself and put Griz in the yard. He has the therapy for my Shallow Grave, but I get another off the top (I think I played another land and Brainstormed into it, don't remember). With Children already in play the win is super easy. He had Grim Tutor and Dark Rit, apparently thought of burning them to get a Surgical, which probably would have been better, but would have set him back pretty bad too.
3-2

Round 6 - Sneak/Show
Game 1
This guy was next to me in the previous round, so I remembered what he was on, but apparently he didn't pay much attention to my side. I keep a hand with most of the combo but no land, just Petal, Brainstorm. Brainstorm hits Sea and the piece I'm missing, and I go off on turn 1. Apparently I had some kind of protection too because I have his hand written down.
Game 2
I Thoughtseize and see he's got Force, Swan Song, Sneak Attack, Breach, and land, but no creatures, so I take his Swan Song so I can Petal -> Entomb. He plays the Sneak, but before I can find a reanimation spell he Intuitions for 3x Grizzlebees. Draws 14, can't find Emrakul so he hits me for 7 and passes. I still don't find a reanimation spell and he manages to cantrip into Emrakul on his turn.
Game 3
I decide to play it safe and open with discard. I think I ran him out of counters with a couple Therapies and a Probe and go off. He couldn't find his Grafdigger's, but I had the Chain in hand anyway.
4-2, top 16, Playmat acquired.

Overall I was pretty happy. Only one clear punt with a combo deck is pretty low by my standards. More importantly, the meta mostly felt really soft to the deck, except for the one Stoneblade deck. Most matchups felt like they only needed one or two kinds of reactive cards, which slotted nicely into the Probe spots. I think if I'd practiced more and kept myself in check better, I could have ended up in top 8, but my wife's plane landed 5 minutes after I got my prize so it was all good.

I also have to give props to this thing:
http://www.wipebook.com/products/wipebook-mini
I think almost every opponent plus a couple passers-by asked about it, and it really was sweet. Took notes for 6 rounds, just typed up this report and then erased all the pages with a damp tissue. I should contact these people and try to get some bulk deal going so I can resell them at big events. Shame about the name though.

[capricorn]

Here's the list I've been championing for awhile now:

Instant (21)
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
3x Goryo's Vengeance
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Shallow Grave

Land (14)
4x Marsh Flats
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Tundra
3x Underground Sea

Sorcery (17)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
1x Reanimate
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Thoughtseize

Creature (4)
1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Griselbrand

Artifact (5)
1x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal

Sideboard (14)
3x Chain of Vapor
2x Massacre
2x Pithing Needle
2x Serenity
3x Silence
2x Surgical Extraction

No big changes, yes, the numbers are intentional.

As mentioned above, both match-ups are skill dependent and take either a good amount of practice or luck.

I personally feel pretty good against these decks, but I'm probably way too over confident with this deck. That being said, this deck isn't for the faint of heart.

I put This back together recently. This deck is absurd fun! I went and played last night.

Round 1
some sort of MUD deck using Goblin Welder
Took game 1 then sided in 2 serenity as well as other cards.
Game 2 was a turn 1 serenity off of a lotus petal and a turn 2 kill

Round 2
Ad Nauseam
I did not see my pieces for a while so he may have thought it was the mirror match at first. It took him a while to kill me and he had to play around a shallow grave on a children halfway through the tendrils. He did manage.
I sided in a few cards but they didn't matter because game 2 I played loose and killed him turn 1.
Game 3 we both keep. He is on the play. Git Probes me and starts to panic. Tendrils was in his hand. Thoughseize Surgical was in mine. I win the game for the cost of 4 life.

Round 3
junk Hatebears maybe?/Aggro Loam?
I probe and see a scavenging ooze and a swords to plowshares and 4 lands (he had a fetch down). I cabal therapy the ooze (because I am still short on pieces). Anyway, I ended up dying to creatures including Gaddock Teeg.
Game 2 I sided in massacre and out Git Probes. I think I had to play massacre around teeg also. I just couldn't get there on that one though. He had deathrite, ooze, enough mana...

Then I had to drop and go have dinner with the wife...

[capricorn]

I put This back together recently. This deck is absurd fun! I went and played last night.

Round 1
some sort of MUD deck using Goblin Welder
Took game 1 then sided in 2 serenity as well as other cards.
Game 2 was a turn 1 serenity off of a lotus petal and a turn 2 kill

Round 2
Ad Nauseam
I did not see my pieces for a while so he may have thought it was the mirror match at first. It took him a while to kill me and he had to play around a shallow grave on a children halfway through the tendrils. He did manage.
I sided in a few cards but they didn't matter because game 2 I played loose and killed him turn 1.
Game 3 we both keep. He is on the play. Git Probes me and starts to panic. Tendrils was in his hand. Thoughseize Surgical was in mine. I win the game for the cost of 4 life.

Round 3
junk Hatebears maybe?/Aggro Loam?
I probe and see a scavenging ooze and a swords to plowshares and 4 lands (he had a fetch down). I cabal therapy the ooze (because I am still short on pieces). Anyway, I ended up dying to creatures including Gaddock Teeg.
Game 2 I sided in massacre and out Git Probes. I think I had to play massacre around teeg also. I just couldn't get there on that one though. He had deathrite, ooze, enough mana...

Then I had to drop and go have dinner with the wife...

I guess my question would be in regards to the 61/14 split and whether it could lend itself to a perish out of the board for Teeg, but more for Ooze and Deathrite especially.

Of coarse I can try anything, but am interested to hear insight from other players on the merits of Perish .

[Koby]

I guess my question would be in regards to the 61/14 split and whether it could lend itself to a perish out of the board for Teeg, but more for Ooze and Deathrite especially.

Of coarse I can try anything, but am interested to hear insight from other players on the merits of Perish .

I usually find Chain of Vapor to do just fine against both DRS, Ooze, and Teeg. Likely, you will need both Massacre and Chains, and the latter takes care of all the hatebears when you have an early kill that is otherwise stopped by one such bear. Perish costing 3 mana is a lot compared to Chain's 1.

[Richard Cheese]

Teeg is also less of a concern for us than Thalia or even Deathrite. He does nothing to stop you from getting Grizzlebees in play, at which point you should either be able to win with Emrakul or draw into a Chain if you really need to go for Tendrils.

[capricorn]

Teeg is also less of a concern for us than Thalia or even Deathrite. He does nothing to stop you from getting Grizzlebees in play, at which point you should either be able to win with Emrakul or draw into a Chain if you really need to go for Tendrils.

Point well taken.

Thalia is definitely more of a problem than Teeg.

Teeg only stops Massacre.

Perish doesn't hit Thalia.

Rock beats scissors, scissors cuts paper...

And I just learned I should have brought in Chains.

:smile:

Thank you,

(I likely could have mulled as well)

[Richard Cheese]

Point well taken.

Thalia is definitely more of a problem than Teeg.

Teeg only stops Massacre.

Perish doesn't hit Thalia.

Rock beats scissors, scissors cuts paper...

And I just learned I should have brought in Chains.

:smile:

Thank you,

(I likely could have mulled as well)

When in doubt, always bring in 2 Chains.

http://thatgirladele.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/2chains.png

Word.

[pandaman]

When in doubt, always bring in 2 Chains.

http://thatgirladele.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/2chains.png

Word.
I just lost my shit at this on the bus to work. People are looking at me funny.

[Acclimation]

When in doubt, always bring in 2 Chains.

http://thatgirladele.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/2chains.png

Word.

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1939842_10200937220307757_713732828_n.jpg?oh=958d80c8c1bec6d21134d30d85e68d80&oe=543A6954

[LeePerry]

I've been running Tin Fins on and off for the past year and have tried out the 61/14 build with LDV, but so far I have been very unsatisfied with LDV, I find it cluncky, it doesn't actually draw you the card if you find it, and at two mana, it makes it difficult to combo off in the same turn even if you can draw it with probe/ponder/brainstorm.

the card is great at setting you up for the next turn, but if I already have two pieces of the combo (mana/recursion/entomb or grislebrand+discard) I'd rather be able to go search and go off in the same turn. maybe this is because BUG, miracles and a lot of DR Shaman decks are very popular in my neighbourhood.

So far I've thought of two ways to try and circumvent this problem
1: add Sensei's Divining Top, would add more consistency, lets you draw for free after a LDV, and better equip you to play a slower game through a lot of disruption. The problem is that you generally don't have enough mana sources to activate SDT constantly. I believe it would slow down the deck noticebly. and bringing in Pithing Needle from the board to name SDT against miracles could cause some awkward game-states.
2: go back to 13 land, throw out the LDV and add Preordain. You lose the raw searching power of LDV, but it would allow for a more streamlined version, keeping it's speed and upping your cantrip total to 14. Bringing it closer to what decks like ANT/TES are playing.

any thoughts one this?

This weekend I plan on trying out the Preordain plan, with a singleton preordain (I know, not really brave) and a third thoughtseize maindeck. I don't want to draw cantrips into cantrips, but I think at 6 rounds of play I can get a feel if I like the preordain, want it more than the 3d thoughtseize or am actually missing the LDV.

[Koby]

IMO the LDV has never been intended to be used on the same turn. It's always been an EOT turn 2 Vamp Tutor. It's too mana costly to try to use it as a mainphase Index.

[pandaman]

With a four to one Brainstorm/Gitaxian Probe to LDV ratio it should be good when you draw it. It's never let me down, pulling some amazing game wins when no other card could have helped.

[Richard Cheese]

I will chime in on the opposite side, I never had good luck with LDV. Using it turn 2 to set up a turn 3 always felt super slow, the lifeloss can be a factor, and too many times I'm just digging for Entomb, blanking the other 4 cards anyway. Since it felt like I was always looking for Entomb anyway, I decided to cut it and go back to 3 Griselbrand and more discard. You can see my most recent list on the previous page, and so far I've been really happy with it.

[pandaman]

My take is that you set up Turn 2 for a guaranteed Turn 3 combo. You'll always be able to find that Entomb, and you may even be able to snag yourself a Cabal Therapy (useful if you have a GitProbe) or some more Rituals/combo pieces (useful with Brainstorm if you have soft counters to play around or FoW to deal with).

With LDV and Brainstorm, you can have four out of the five cards you put on top, which can change a hand of garbage to nuts. I'd much rather play something like that over Preordain. Guaranteed the card you want plus amazing potential? Or scry two and draw and possibly not find anything relevant. We're pretty all-in already, and LDV fits with that pressure strategy of consistently going off quickly.

[Richard Cheese]

My take is that you set up Turn 2 for a guaranteed Turn 3 combo. You'll always be able to find that Entomb, and you may even be able to snag yourself a Cabal Therapy (useful if you have a GitProbe) or some more Rituals/combo pieces (useful with Brainstorm if you have soft counters to play around or FoW to deal with).

Right, and I can't argue that it seems really good on paper. I even bought a sweet original German copy so I could play it. I just feel like having 7 discard + 3 Griselbrand has been more consistent at starting the combo than having a 5th Entomb/9th reanimation spell, and faster as well. I could just be biased though. Most of the games I played with it, I never saw it until I was already comboing, or if I actually cast it to find something, it would cost me 4+ life to get an Entomb that gets countered.

[pandaman]

That's fair. But my take is that you need to think about what you would have had if the LDV was the other card. Would you have had the opportunity to go off like you would have with the LDV? Even if it does get countered, you are still forcing them to have that counterspell. You are pretty much drawing a card that says "I now have the ability to win the game if they don't have a way of stopping me." If you're playing the long game, it also informs your subsequent cantripping decisions incredibly well. You can toss away the remaining combo piece you're looking for and concentrate solely on discard or extra Rituals to play around counters, for example, knowing you can get that last piece whenever you like. Of course, you have to consider the LDV getting countered, but my experience is that people are usually willing to let it go if they have counter because they are happy to let you go down a card. But you can make them pay because usually you can abuse it so it doesn't matter to you 'cause you can win through what they have.

[pandaman]

Also, Kudos on the German copy *high five*

[Richard Cheese]

That's fair. But my take is that you need to think about what you would have had if the LDV was the other card. Would you have had the opportunity to go off like you would have with the LDV? Even if it does get countered, you are still forcing them to have that counterspell. You are pretty much drawing a card that says "I now have the ability to win the game if they don't have a way of stopping me." If you're playing the long game, it also informs your subsequent cantripping decisions incredibly well. You can toss away the remaining combo piece you're looking for and concentrate solely on discard or extra Rituals to play around counters, for example, knowing you can get that last piece whenever you like. Of course, you have to consider the LDV getting countered, but my experience is that people are usually willing to let it go if they have counter because they are happy to let you go down a card. But you can make them pay because usually you can abuse it so it doesn't matter to you 'cause you can win through what they have.

Hard to say because I made a few other changes at the same time so there's not one card I can look at and decide if it's better. I just wanted to get back to the roots of the deck and beat counters by just trying to combo over and over until it resolves.

http://x2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/5118018+_6c0d2daecbabcde6af73ec2c9e1ccd1c.gif

Going back to 3 Gris was just awesome because I was able to self-discard him a couple times, and draw, discard, go won me the round against High Tide.

[Acclimation]

Hard to say because I made a few other changes at the same time so there's not one card I can look at and decide if it's better. I just wanted to get back to the roots of the deck and beat counters by just trying to combo over and over until it resolves.

http://x2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/5118018+_6c0d2daecbabcde6af73ec2c9e1ccd1c.gif

Going back to 3 Gris was just awesome because I was able to self-discard him a couple times, and draw, discard, go won me the round against High Tide.

I'm a huge fan of LDV for all the previous reasons listed.

Really just wanted to chime in about that gif. Made me laugh out loud, haven't seen the source of that in a long time.

[pandaman]

Me too. I lol'd at the gif!

[Howishotgun]

Looking to build this deck and trying to find a good list to go off of. Does anybody have a list that they would like to share? I saw the list a page back, but I like to view multiple ones and compare if I can help it

[Richard Cheese]

Looking to build this deck and trying to find a good list to go off of. Does anybody have a list that they would like to share? I saw the list a page back, but I like to view multiple ones and compare if I can help it

Well we do have our own category on TCDecks:

http://tcdecks.net/tipo.php?archetype=Tin%20Fins&format=Legacy

[Acclimation]

Looking to build this deck and trying to find a good list to go off of. Does anybody have a list that they would like to share? I saw the list a page back, but I like to view multiple ones and compare if I can help it

Just don't run Pull from Eternity.

That card is cute, but pretty much a waste of space.

[.dk]

Just don't run Pull from Eternity.

That card is cute, but pretty much a waste of space.

Unless you're running Serum Powder!!! amiright? :)

[Acclimation]

Unless you're running Serum Powder!!! amiright? :)

Only if we can run Protean Hulk and Shadowborn Apostle!

[.dk]

Only if we can run Protean Hulk and Shadowborn Apostle!

Oh, we can, and we will! Watch out GPNJ, Tin Fins 4 will be unleashed

[Acclimation]

Oh, we can, and we will! Watch out GPNJ, Tin Fins 4 will be unleashed

Swag Fins.

The deck so convoluted, we'll win because our opponents won't know what's going on!

[.dk]

Swag Fins.

The deck so convoluted, we'll win because our opponents won't know what's going on!

Exactly - that's why I usually play DDFT. Except then I'm in the same boat as my opponents!

[Koby]

Swag Fins.

The deck so convoluted, we'll win because our opponents won't know what's going on!

That's exactly how we won last year.

"WTF is going on, wait how am I dead? You cast Children of Korlis..."

[P-E]

i still play the deck , old koby list with serenity and it's still a blast to play :laugh:

maybe i'll take it for gp lille in july 2015

[Acclimation]

That's exactly how we won last year.

"WTF is going on, wait how am I dead? You cast Children of Korlis..."
People still don't know what that card or LDV do.

It's never going to stop being amusing.

[Richard Cheese]

This is by far the most fun thread on this entire site.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Dk, Richard, are either one of you going to GP Salt Lake?

[.dk]

No, but I'll be at GP NJ - possibly rocking this deck in some side events.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You flying out?

[.dk]

You flying out?

Yessir! Tickets not booked yet, but will be soon.

[Richard Cheese]

Dk, Richard, are either one of you going to GP Salt Lake?

No, although considering how cheap tickets are I should. Will also most likely be at GP NJ. If Khans doesn't shake up the meta by then, I may very well just end up on TinFins.

[Koby]

I think I'm full on the 4 Pack Rat plan vs heavy counter decks. Nothing says "Play Magic" like Thoughtseize into Pack Rat.

[Richard Cheese]

I think I'm full on the 4 Pack Rat plan vs heavy counter decks. Nothing says "Play Magic" like Thoughtseize into Pack Rat.

I'm just going to board into Cavern Demons.

[Acclimation]

I think I'm full on the 4 Pack Rat plan vs heavy counter decks. Nothing says "Play Magic" like Thoughtseize into Pack Rat.

I love playing standard!

[Pomegrant]

Hello, tonight I went 4-0 in a daily on MTGO with a Tin Fins variant that a friend and I came up with. Originally the deck was Tin Fins but splashing some red for Stronghold Gambit. From there the brew changed into playing Burning Wish and LED in the deck. We had felt that sometimes the original Tin Fins deck would brick on mana sources and thought that this might add some consistency to the deck.

If you want to watch the matches I played against Junk, Miracles, Shardless Bant, and ANT. Link: http://www.twitch.tv/pomegrant/b/559863727


1 Badlands
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Children of Korlis
3 Griselbrand

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
1 Thoughtseize
1 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
3 Duress
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Exhume
1 Pyroclasm
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Meltdown

The sideboard needs a bit of work. I think I should be playing a Show and Tell and I'm not sure if the lands are right. It's a first draft and needs to be tuned but so far it's felt pretty powerful.

[.dk]

While I did try Burning Wish a LONG time ago in Tin Fins, I did not do so with LED. It does give you a bit more flexibility in terms of ways you can win (and I saw the recent Burning Reanimator lists doing a similar thing as well). Seems like a cool idea to test - although I'm not sure that you want all 4 LED's. It seems like you want more IMS that can cast cards in hand to me.

One of the issues I've run into with Tin Fins in the past (I haven't actually played the deck since last November) is when getting my first attempt to combo disrupted, I'm stuck for a while. Which opens up a huge vulnerability to Wasteland and exaggerates the need for having IMS that can cast cards in hand. LED does have a really sweet interaction with Shallow Grave, but makes the deck even MORE all in on combo-ing out the first time (since you pitch your entire hand). Which to me, means you need more disruption (not less) than current UBw Tin Fins. Or a way to be more resilient over the long game (Sensei's Diving Top, more basics, etc.) - and that likely means being less explosive too.

I guess in summary, I worry that going heavy into a 3rd color and adding LED's makes the deck a bit more of a glass cannon that is difficult to recover from disruption with. But maybe that is ok, I don't know.

I do think the concept is sweet and I've been wanting to try something like that for a while, but my time for playing Magic and Legacy has been a bit limited most of this year.

/edit - oh, and in terms of the list itself... since you're running Burning Wish, do you really need Tendrils main? I think that can turn back into the singleton Emrakul to give you more lines of play. So, just looking at it, I would consider in the maindeck

-1 LED
-1 Tendrils
+1 IMS (Swamp? Is Mox Opal playable with adding LED's? Chrome Mox?)
+1 Emrakul

[Pomegrant]

We started with four of everything just as a rough draft. I think playing three LEDs could be right, I just don't have enough games in to determine what amounts of everything I should be playing.

I think Chrome Mox could be a good addition to the deck but I think this build has less reliance on the Lotus Petals since you do get a lot of mana from the LEDs. Playing the LEDs and cracking them between Griselbrand draws is a strong line because you don't mind discarding your hand when you have win conditions to wish for.

So far while playing I've felt the deck has been less all in because you have the ability to win without griselbrand and can win through Empty the Warrens. I think the reliance on Entomb is somewhat reduced as you have a Burning Wish backup plan.

The Tendrils in the main deck is mostly for an easy mode button while I learn to play it better, to be honest. As for the Emrakul, I'm not exactly sure about it. I understand that it's good but it doesn't always work favorably with LED when I'd like to have stuff in my graveyard. It's something I'll have to play around with.

[.dk]

We started with four of everything just as a rough draft. I think playing three LEDs could be right, I just don't have enough games in to determine what amounts of everything I should be playing.

I think Chrome Mox could be a good addition to the deck but I think this build has less reliance on the Lotus Petals since you do get a lot of mana from the LEDs. Playing the LEDs and cracking them between Griselbrand draws is a strong line because you don't mind discarding your hand when you have win conditions to wish for.

So far while playing I've felt the deck has been less all in because you have the ability to win without griselbrand and can win through Empty the Warrens. I think the reliance on Entomb is somewhat reduced as you have a Burning Wish backup plan.

The Tendrils in the main deck is mostly for an easy mode button while I learn to play it better, to be honest. As for the Emrakul, I'm not exactly sure about it. I understand that it's good but it doesn't always work favorably with LED when I'd like to have stuff in my graveyard. It's something I'll have to play around with.

I guess what I mean by all in is that if the first time you try to go off (by any means, Empty, Entomb, etc.) and you are disrupted, you have less IMS to be able to search, filter, and build up to be able to try again. At least, that was the original intent - have a stable enough manabase (with basics) that you can just keep trying over and over again, since you're essentially a diverse 2 card combo, and once Griselbrand is in the graveyard, a 1 card combo.

And, by the way, that's not to say that this is the best approach. It's just a matter of understanding the tradeoffs.

[Richard Cheese]

Yeah you're really trading one kind of redundancy for another. I've been wanting to find a way to integrate Wish or some alternate wincon into the deck, but it always seems to come at the expense of being soft to counters, and always seems to cost some speed as well.

[Acclimation]

I'm not a fan of the less reanimation spells, but that's because my game plan is often smash 8 reanimation spells into my opponent until one resolves.

[.dk]

I'm not a fan of the less reanimation spells, but that's because my game plan is often smash 8 reanimation spells into my opponent until one resolves.

That's kind of what I mean. Yes, you can Burning Wish for them, but that becomes really expensive without an LED to go along with it.

It's really more like you're trading redundancy for flexibility. I prefer the redundant plan - while it sounds like Pomegrant prefers a more flexible plan. Both have their merits - but we need to do some testing to see whether the flexibility gets you out of more game situations than just jamming more reanimation spells would. Example...

In a counter heavy metagame, I would prefer a more redundant plan to keep reanimating in the face of countermagic to turn redundant pieces into Duress/Hymn.

In a graveyard hate heavy metagame (lots of deathrite shamans? RiP?), a more flexible plan may have more merit to more easily play around that kind of hate. A transformation out of the sideboard could help here too (I know there is one that I am particularly fond of for that reason).

[Pomegrant]

I'm not sure I understand how the Burning Wish version is softer to counter magic as I felt that the traditional list had similar problems in if your Entomb gets countered you're usually in a bad spot. I think that if you resolve an Entomb that the traditional list having way more reanimate effects does have a better chance of getting through but for me, while playing this deck, I've felt that you've always traded consistency for explosiveness.

So far I have felt that I haven't sacrificed much speed and if I need to play a slower game I can with just hitting lands and playing Wish into whatever item I need. Perhaps this is just based on variance and my sample size isn't large enough yet or my opponent's not fighting over the right cards because I am doing something unfamiliar.

I play Legacy mostly online and the metagame has a lot of BUG decks and a lot of Miracles decks. Both have a lot of permission and some amount of graveyard interaction/hate. I've liked the flexibility of Wish because I've had games in which my opponent went all in on graveyard hate and didn't have much permission which allowed me to put Griselbrand into play from my hand. Once again, my limited game experience with the deck means it could have just been good this one time.

.dk, what kind of transformative sideboard do you have in mind?

Things on my list to try is the deck with Emrakul, a Chrome Mox, and perhaps play around with Infernal Tutor.

[.dk]

A few reasons that I think that:

1. Burning wish increases the mana requirements to go off - this makes playing through soft counters (daze, pierce) much more difficult
2. You may need to crack your LED in response to Burning Wish, pitching the rest of your hand. If it gets countered, you're left with nothing.
3. You have more discard in the traditional list to be able to strip your opponent's hand of that disruption and not worry about getting your Entomb countered as much.
4. LED as a discard outlet only works with Shallow Grave and not Goryo's Vengeance. While it is cheaper, Thoughtseize/Therapy is more flexible as a self discard outlet in that regard, as well as doubles as disruption for your opponent.

Again, these do come at the cost of being less flexible, which Burning Wish + LED can get you.

My transformation of choice is a DDFT transformation. But, I don't know that it is any better than the traditional reactive sideboards. However, it does catch some decks very off guard and has some good game against Counterbalance as it is hard for them to find a 3 drop to counter Doomsday with, at which point you can go to town with Shelldock/Emrakul.

[SevenInTheQueue]

Back on this pony.

Is the LED/Infernal/Ad Naus SB plan the real deal?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Simply put, nope.

[Bobmans]

Back on this pony.

Is the LED/Infernal/Ad Naus SB plan the real deal?

As discussed earlier in this thread (and even reading the post before yours) the overall conclusion was that running transformational sideboards creates sub-optimal lists (as opposed to the original lists running that strategy), but can catch opponents off guard and might work in specific meta's.
Sneak/show, DDFT, ANT, Helm/RiP, all are plans that where discussed at one point... As was Burning Wish before Children of Korlis became a thing. And because of Children, splashig white was a must. But did solve some inconsistancy issues this deck had. This also meant that running red or green (Abrupt Decay) splash became a problem for the mana-base. And offcourse you can say that AND/TES don't have problems with its manabase, but this decks wants to win faster. The anti-hate strategy is less meta dependend and does perform most consistant. Although there is not a fully optimal anti-hate plan in my opinion, since you would need a little bit of everything to be able to fight of all angles of hate and thus makes the anti-hate kind of stretched out (and cannot be solved by just pouring Abrupt Decay in the list).

[Richard Cheese]

Back on this pony.

Is the LED/Infernal/Ad Naus SB plan the real deal?

Depends what you mean by the real deal.

Can it actually work? Yes.

Is it the best sideboard option? Probably not.

[capricorn]

Went 4-2 this weekend at a 46-man SCG IQ. Here's the list and a short report:


4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate

3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtsieze

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats

SB:

3 Massacre
3 Pithing Needle
3 Silence
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Serenity
1 Surgical Extraction







Was building this list as the previous version I've been playing has struggled too hard in a meta full of counter-top (4 out of 24 average). I've been playing goryo's in modern also (as brave/dumb as that tends to be) and have always loved the non-interactive discard Griselbrand turn 1.

I may try 4 but will try this "as is" first.

My only comment is that in building this deck, it turns out there are only 59 cards maindeck.

I must imagine the Tendrils of Agony was forgotten.

As a side note... I am soooo excited for the fetch reprints. Sold my deltas a while ago and have been playing it with only marsh flats since. Nobody has known how crippled I could be to a pithing needle...

Currently trying Gemstone mines in place of Deltas until release.

[Richard Cheese]

Was building this list as the previous version I've been playing has struggled too hard in a meta full of counter-top (4 out of 24 average). I've been playing goryo's in modern also (as brave/dumb as that tends to be) and have always loved the non-interactive discard Griselbrand turn 1.

I may try 4 but will try this "as is" first.

My only comment is that in building this deck, it turns out there are only 59 cards maindeck.

I must imagine the Tendrils of Agony was forgotten.

As a side note... I am soooo excited for the fetch reprints. Sold my deltas a while ago and have been playing it with only marsh flats since. Nobody has known how crippled I could be to a pithing needle...

Currently trying Gemstone mines in place of Deltas until release.

Oops! You are correct, 60th card is Tendrils.

[Richard Cheese]

So this got spoiled:
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/62/39/635455090245448701.png

Anyone else seeing some potential here? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of a board like:

4 Cabal Rit
4 Empty the Pits
3 Rain of Filth
2 Silence
2Chainz (tru)

Postboard you'd be looking to use cantrips and discard aggressively early and aim to go off probably turn 3 or 4.

This would make RiP the main postboard threat we worry about. DRS would still be somewhat of an issue, but not nearly as big of a roadblock as he is for the primary combo. Counters would still be an issue since this is Delve instead of Storm, but we've already got about as much discard as other storm decks, and postboard we can be more aggressive with it since we aren't worrying about needing to self-target anymore.

One really interesting aspect is that this is all instant-speed, which means you can go off EOT, or even respond to a Deathrite activation or a RiP trigger.

I guess the question is: does this solve more problems than it creates? Also how consistent can it be without tutors?

[John Cox]

I'm putting this deck together and wondering if the numbers of chrome mox and petals can be reversed without hurting consistency (4 chrome mox 1-2 petal).

Thanks,
John

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Strictly a bad idea.

[Acclimation]

I'm putting this deck together and wondering if the numbers of chrome mox and petals can be reversed without hurting consistency (4 chrome mox 1-2 petal).

Thanks,
John

Can you do it? Sure!

But your consistency goes down a bit, since Chrome Mox isn't as good before we go off due to card disadvantage.

I wouldn't recommend doing it.

[Mhenlo]

I'm putting this deck together and wondering if the numbers of chrome mox and petals can be reversed without hurting consistency (4 chrome mox 1-2 petal).

Thanks,
John

If you play 4 Chrome Mox you might want to try Pull from Eternity also.

[John Cox]

Is a singleton rune-scarred demon worth trying as something to reanimate post Griselbrand? You could use it to get tendrils/ entomb/ shallow grave/ chain of vapor/ silence... etc

[Richard Cheese]

Is a singleton rune-scarred demon worth trying as something to reanimate post Griselbrand? You could use it to get tendrils/ entomb/ shallow grave/ chain of vapor/ silence... etc

No, because at that point you should either get Emrakul and win, or Children and win.

[P-E]

sleeved up tinfins for a small shop tournament only 19 players but it's decent for my town ^^

Classic Koby's list 13 lands 3 seize 1 silence MD.
My side was
2-Serenity
1-Chain of Vapor
1-Echoing Truth
2-Massacre
2-Engineered Explosives
3-Pithing Needle
3-Silence
1-Mindbreak Trap(i was expecting some belcher and oops)

Round 1: Deathblade 2-0

g1 nothing much interesting I seized t1 , he revealed BS clique jitte and lands. I took his BS. In my turn 3 he cliqued me but i had setup the kill.
g2 it was the same story but t1 after a probe seing nothing

Round 2: A young kid who got bye round1 and play with a block deck (sad for him he got paired against TinFins) 2-0

G1/2 were brutal but i tried to explain everything to him the best i can.

Round 3: Infect 2-0

g1 i killed fast like t2 i guess
g2 he probed me and see i can shallow grisel , he decided to attack with noble and drop me to 14 life. Unfortunately for him my second draw7 after grisel attack gave me children (i already have petal for it)

Round 4: Reanimator RB 2-1

g1 was turn 1 or 2 kill for me
g2 was more epic, he duressed me t1 , i went for entomb in his t2 eot , he extirpated grisel :S his next turn he played a tormod's. We draw go for a while, silencing once to ge safe. Bounced his crypt eot. Probed him and see some fatties exhume and reanimate but no lands. I go for Emy dropping him to 5 and clearing his board. Now reanimate, children, tendrils ^^
We draw go for a while again, he puts a putrid imp in grave. I tried to reanimate it, he crypt himself. Later he exhumed Jin , i Echoing it. Then children join the battle. He played a putrid , faithless , exhume Jin ( he his at 1 due to city of brass pingings) My hand was Petal,Dark Rit at that point. I drew BS, it gave me another BS and random crap, i used a fetch to shuffle and play a new BS finding vault. I'm at 8 with children in play facing Jin and Putrid. I played Vault and stopped at 4 lifes and put tendrils on top. He drew extirpate ^^ i didn't wait for my draw and conceded. ahaha
This was clearly the funniest game of the day ^^
g3 i killed him t1 with the twin attack

Round 5: Hypergenesis 2-0

g1 i had Griselbrand in hand , he showed t3 or t4. I won on my turn
g2 i side out 1 cabal therapy along 3 probe/2 ponder as i was expecting Leyline of sanctity. He mulled to 6 and dropped Leyline t0. Draw go for a while until i silence in my turn (having grisel in hand in case he went for Violent Outburst) i killed with the twins pair

So 5-0 , Funny deck and funny games. I really enjoy this deck. My hand were good all the afternoon. The meta wasn't bad for tinfins: as far i remembered 2 Burn 1 MUD 3 elves 1 DnT 1 infect 2 Rea 1 Tinfins 2 MBA 1 Deathblade 1 BUG delver 1 Belcher

I never sided in Serenity but it would have shinned against MUD,Explosives are in side because i expeced elves and belcher and it's also good against vs bug as you take DRS and cage

I'll keep it sleeved to have more fun :tongue:

[Acclimation]

Is a singleton rune-scarred demon worth trying as something to reanimate post Griselbrand? You could use it to get tendrils/ entomb/ shallow grave/ chain of vapor/ silence... etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk5JzeHfckk

Don't get cute, just fucking kill them.

[TraxDaMax]

I haven't played this deck for a while so I am kind of rusty on the rulings. So I was wondering if we say have Griselbrand in the yard, they have an active Deathrite Shaman and I cast Shallow Grave, they try to remove GB and I entomb for Emrakul in response, does this allow for the shuffle effect before DRS's ability resolves? :confused:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Does that work?

[Holly]

Yes it does, though most times a better line would be to let the ability resolve and entomb for another griselbrand if available and just win.

[Acclimation]

I haven't played this deck for a while so I am kind of rusty on the rulings. So I was wondering if we say have Griselbrand in the yard, they have an active Deathrite Shaman and I cast Shallow Grave, they try to remove GB and I entomb for Emrakul in response, does this allow for the shuffle effect before DRS's ability resolves? :confused:

Yes, this works. The stack looks something like this:

Shallow Grave
DRS ability
Entomb.

Entomb resolves, Emrakul's ability will trigger, causing the stack to look something like this:

Shallow Grave
DRS ability
Emrakul trigger

Emrakul's trigger resolves first, as it is the last thing on the stack, shuffling the graveyard into your library. Then, the Deathrite's ability will fizzle due to having no target. Then Shallow Grave will resolve and grab nothing.


What you should do instead in that situation is what Holly said: Entomb for Griselbrand, let the DRS trigger resolve, then Shallow Grave resolves, getting you a Griselbrand, followed by drawing many cards and winning.

Note that this only applies to Shallow Grave and not Goryo's Vengeance, since Goryo's targets and Shallow Grave just gets the top creature card of your graveyard when it resolves.

[TraxDaMax]

Yes, this works. The stack looks something like this:

Shallow Grave
DRS ability
Entomb.

Entomb resolves, Emrakul's ability will trigger, causing the stack to look something like this:

Shallow Grave
DRS ability
Emrakul trigger

Emrakul's trigger resolves first, as it is the last thing on the stack, shuffling the graveyard into your library. Then, the Deathrite's ability will fizzle due to having no target. Then Shallow Grave will resolve and grab nothing.


What you should do instead in that situation is what Holly said: Entomb for Griselbrand, let the DRS trigger resolve, then Shallow Grave resolves, getting you a Griselbrand, followed by drawing many cards and winning.

Note that this only applies to Shallow Grave and not Goryo's Vengeance, since Goryo's targets and Shallow Grave just gets the top creature card of your graveyard when it resolves.

Alright, thanks for the explanation!

[.dk]

What you should do instead in that situation is what Holly said: Entomb for Griselbrand, let the DRS trigger resolve, then Shallow Grave resolves, getting you a Griselbrand, followed by drawing many cards and winning.

Note that this only applies to Shallow Grave and not Goryo's Vengeance, since Goryo's targets and Shallow Grave just gets the top creature card of your graveyard when it resolves.

And precisely why Shallow Grave is the 4 of, and not Goryo's Vengeance. And why, if you wanted, Shallow Grave works with Lion's Eye Diamond and other instant (or faster) speed discard effects in response.

[Koby]

The key to success with this deck (aside from drawing like Keranos, God of Stormdecks) is knowledge of the stack in conjunction with Shallow Grave.

For instance, suppose you have Griselbrand in your graveyard. Your opponent activates DRS to exile it.
You can respond by casting Entomb for Emrakul, put the trigger on the stack, then cast either Goryo's Vengeance or Shallow Grave to reanimate Emrakul.

The key feature is that the Emrakul GY shuffle trigger can be responded to profitably.

[.dk]

The key to success with this deck (aside from drawing like Keranos, God of Stormdecks) is knowledge of the stack in conjunction with Shallow Grave.

For instance, suppose you have Griselbrand in your graveyard. Your opponent activates DRS to exile it.
You can respond by casting Entomb for Emrakul, put the trigger on the stack, then cast either Goryo's Vengeance or Shallow Grave to reanimate Emrakul.

The key feature is that the Emrakul GY shuffle trigger can be responded to profitably.

Very good points - 100% agree. Emrakul's shuffle trigger is a feature, not a drawback, in this deck. The fact that we act at instant speed on just about everything makes the deck deceptively powerful. You can usually just respond to what your opponent is doing to disrupt you effectively cutting off some of their resources.

[Acclimation]

I feel like wasting everyone's time with some failure, so buckle up.

Played in the SCG Open in STL last weekend (9/7), and went a lovely 1-3 drop.

List is same as always.

Preface: Saturday was my birthday, so friends came into town Friday night, and we spent all night getting hammered. Saturday was spent being surprisingly not hungover, but full of naps and food. Went out again that night, but didn't have much to drink, and got home before midnight. Spent 0 time playtesting during the weekend, haven't played Legacy in 2 weeks, and only played ANT for the last few times I played legacy. Decided to play the Onion Burst despite dropping the cash on a nm Grim Tutor.

Wake up Sunday at 7am, do the whole shower and wake up friends thing. We push out at around 850ish, stop for breakfast burritos, and show up at the venue at 920 to find out that Legacy Opens start at 9am now, and not 10am. The 6 of us decide to say fuck it and play anyway.

RD1: 0-2, really wish that an announcement was made the day before.

RD 2: Merfolk (2-0)

Lose the dice roll, draw opening hand see Entomb, Gravex 2, Dark Rit x2, Entomb, Lotus Petal. Goryo. Definitely a keeper. Opponent goes Island>Vial pass. I draw my card, it's a 3rd Shallow Grave. Without hesitation, #yolo slam the Petal>rit>rit> Entomb. He has no responses. Draw 14, get Emrakul, swing for win.

+2 Needle +3 Chain -3 Probe -2 LDV

Game 2 I get something to the extent of Swamp, fetch, entomb, grave x2, goryo, Probe. Kept it. Opponent opens with Island, go. I draw Therapy, Probe and see Cursecatcher, Swan Songx2, cavern, lord, and Silvergill Adept x2. Play swamp, attempt to Therapy, it gets countered. Next turn he plays land, drops Curse Catcher. I draw a land. Decide to chuck out the Entomb- he lets it resolve! The next 3 turns involve casting reanimation into counterspells (flashbacked cabal therapy, get another bird from counter). Eventually, I have 4 lands, cast Goryo, he forces and is tapped out with no cards in hand, and I cast my 5th reanimation spell- the look of defeat on his face was great. End up getting there.

1-1
Rd 3: Sneak Attack (0-2)

Lose dice roll, keep hand that just needs an Entomb. Look at his hand at one point and see 3 Sneak Attack and some cantrips. We both spin our wheels until he smacks me with Emrakul. I fire off a Tendrils (5 storm) to bring him down to 6 and keep me alive at 11, but he draws into another Emrakul the next turn.

+2 Surgical +1 Silence +2 Needle +2 Chain -4 Probe -2 LDV -1 Ponder

Similar to the above hand, keep a hand that just needs to draw an Entomb. Strip Sneak Attack from his hand, leaving Through the Breach. He eventually Breaches Emrakul. We play struggle magic for the next 9 turns. Naturally, I draw nothing and he finally draws into Emrakul.

1-2

Rd 4: BUG Delver (1-2)

Game 1 I leverage discard to slow him down, and manage to bin Griselbrand. Attempted to Reanimate, but it got Forced, and get off a dark rit>Shallow. He manages to stifle a Griselbrand draw, forcing me to attack. Ended up drawing into Children and finishing him off with Tendrils.

-1 Reanimate -4 Probe +1 Silence +2 Needle +2 Chains

Game 2 He sticks an early DRS and has counters for both of my Needles. I slowly die to Goyf and TNN beats.

Game 3 Ends up being a slugfest. He ends up double Bob-ing it and getting there with Goyf.

1-3

At this point, I decide to call it quits, since I figured that my breakers were awful and even winning the next 5 rounds might not get me money. Other friends were also doing terrible, so we talked about leaving and going to STL to pal around for the rest of the day. Instead of leaving though, we find out that our friend Caleb is 3-1 with Manaless Dredge, so we stick it out. Ended up getting some store credit with SCG and debated about what to pick up. After watching Caleb win the next 2 rounds easily to be 5-1, I decide to price out Manaless and bought most of the deck. Also played in a side draft and won it. At the end of the day, friend went 5-4, got 65th like a scrub, and we left to get pizza.

Props:
Breakfast burritos
t1 wins
winning through a mountain of counterspells
beating nerds in side events
getting attention for existing another revolution around the sun
jungle juice
coconut water to prevent hangovers
pizza
friends
adventures
pocket squares and ties
paying $75 to own 90% of Manaless dredge.

Slops:

SCG for starting Legacy at 9am and not 10am, the bastards
Entomb for being hard to draw

So, yeah. Failed at tournament magic, but still had a blast of a weekend. I still would play the same 75 again. Legacy is difficult to find around me and my schedule is pretty tight between school and work, so I don't get to play as much as I would like.

[TraxDaMax]

I played about 30 sideboardless games the other day vs UWr delver, Pun Jund, and ANT, and boy did I get my butt kicked. Delver's wastelands, Stifle and StP hurt bad. Jund's turn one DRS or thoughtseize and turn 2 Hymn aswell although I feel that matchup can really be about luck of the draw. Against ANT I had the mist succes, although for him turn 1-ing me happened more frequently then the other way around. I think in all the games I probably won like 6-7 out of 30 which gets me to think I need some more practise before taking it to a tourny again. Two years ago I was doing just fine with it, don't know what went wrong :)

[cogitoergosum]

Anyone else think Treasure Cruise has huge potential in this deck? Looks like it could really push the deck to another level of consistency.

[Mhenlo]

Anyone else think Treasure Cruise has huge potential in this deck? Looks like it could really push the deck to another level of consistency.

We don't get that many cards into the graveyard fast enough to be good. 7 cards is a lot, if you are lucky you could probably have it active turn 3. I would look at Dig Through Time first to use as a "late game" to help find what we need.

[Bobmans]

Anyone else think Treasure Cruise has huge potential in this deck? Looks like it could really push the deck to another level of consistency.

Having a Delve draw cardin hand while just missing one piece will mean a mulligan, where with a ponder/brainstorm you could keep that hand. If you can't use it t1, (except for LDV) then it's not better then the aforementioned. On top of that, the list is tight as it is already. I'd even prefer a Intuition over the delve draws.