[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Richard Cheese]

Anyone else think Treasure Cruise has huge potential in this deck? Looks like it could really push the deck to another level of consistency.

Dig Through Time actually looks more useful since we care more about card quality than quantity. 7 cards deep plus draw 2 isn't anything to sneeze at, but the most likely spot for it to take is LDV, and I'm hesitant to say it's any better than that.

I'm still more interested in Empty the Pits as a possible transformational board, because I have a big irrational hard-on for transformational sideboards.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think this deck is as good as it can be. Richard's sideboard fetish aside, we just have to mulligan right and get a little lucky. Graveyard hate is at a critical mass as far as multiplicity is concerned. Beat it or lose. It's a glass cannon, but it's power is immense. I so far don't find either card good enough. I'd go back to playing 2 snapcaster before either of these.

[entreri_fans]

Hello, guys, do you think KTK new card "Dig Through Time" fits for our deck?

I did some test myself, replacing 2 Lim Dul's Vault with 2 Dig Through Time.

well, actully, having 6 cards to delve is really easy as we have tons of fetchlands, cantrips and discards in early turns.

everytime I get that card, I can delve 6 to cast it. I know this card can't assure that we find that damn entomb, but "Dig 7 for 2 cards" is still strong, with card advantage and no life loss at all.

What do you think:smile:

[Acclimation]

Hello, guys, do you think KTK new card "Dig Through Time" fits for our deck?

I did some test myself, replacing 2 Lim Dul's Vault with 2 Dig Through Time.

well, actully, having 6 cards to delve is really easy as we have tons of fetchlands, cantrips and discards in early turns.

everytime I get that card, I can delve 6 to cast it. I know this card can't assure that we find that damn entomb, but "Dig 7 for 2 cards" is still strong, with card advantage and no life loss at all.

What do you think:smile:

Pretty sure LDV is the better card here: always costs 2 mana, instant, can see more than 7 cards and can potentially get us 3-5 necessary/useful cards.

[HammerAndSickled]

Pretty sure LDV is the better card here: always costs 2 mana, instant, can see more than 7 cards and can potentially get us 3-5 necessary/useful cards.
LDV is -1 card, DTT is +1. I don't see how they're comparable in a combo deck. I love LDV more than most people, but dig helps refuel and generate CA.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I feel that delve undercuts you. I mean, if grave hate hits the board, what would you rather have, DTT or LDV? I want LDV every time.

[Acclimation]

One of the biggest strengths of LDV is using it as a t2 Vampiric Tutor to go into a t3 win.

The Delve spells can't reliably set that up.

[phazonmutant]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm excited by the thought of Dark Ritual -> Dig Through Time. Think about it more as 2UU double demonic tutor on turn 2 or 3, and just UU if you try and fail to go off. I haven't tested it in TinFins (I've got a bunch of decks on my bucket list!), but it's worth testing. The power level is just so high.

[TraxDaMax]

Lion's Eye Diamond seems decent suddenly.
Although it makes Emrakul bad.

[Koby]

I continue to feel that UU mana cost is a little hard to achieve in most games. Yes, we do run many Islands, but the games we're struggling are against mana denial, Daze + Spell Pierce decks. In these games we need the DTT to recoup, and in those games are where UU is a liability.

[Mhenlo]

Lion's Eye Diamond seems decent suddenly.
Although it makes Emrakul bad.

LED has been tested already, it is a win more card. I could see running it if you had a Ad Nauseam sb with 4 Infernal Tutors and a Ad Nauseam, but that's about it.

Can we stop bringing up Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time? We have already agreed that it is not worth it in our deck.

I'm thinking of running this deck at Legacy Champs, here is my current list.

1 Children of Korlis
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Ponder
1 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
1 Daze
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Island
4 Marsh Flat
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

SB:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Pithing Needle
3 Silence
2 Show and Tell
2 Wipe Away
2 Massacre

opinions?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I will never support a decklist with 0 LDV. Likewise, 4 Grizz is too many for me as well, and there are the slots for the LDV.

[Richard Cheese]

You probably want some Probes in there as well. I would cut Daze, a Grizzlebees, and a Thoughtseize at the least for 3x Probe.

I'm not as sold on LDV. I played with 1 or 2 for a while, even bought a sweet German Ice Age copy. Always felt lackluster when casting though, and I eventually cut them for more discard outlets and haven't really missed them. On paper it's certainly a good fit for the deck though, so you might want to make some room for at least one and give it a try, see if you like it.

[DavidHernandez]

LED has been tested already, it is a win more card. I could see running it if you had a Ad Nauseam sb with 4 Infernal Tutors and a Ad Nauseam, but that's about it.

...

I'm thinking of running this deck at Legacy Champs, here is my current list.

1 Children of Korlis
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Ponder
1 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
1 Daze
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Island
4 Marsh Flat
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

SB:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Pithing Needle
3 Silence
2 Show and Tell
2 Wipe Away
2 Massacre

opinions?

I find that if I am going to run Daze, I want 4. This is because you want it in your hand to protect against FoW on the Turn 1 or 2 win. You could drop 2 Gris and 1 Thoughtseize to get it done.

Git Probes would be nice in the build.

Dave

[Mhenlo]

I run 4 Griselbrand and 8 Discard spells to maximize the chances of getting a Griselbrand into the graveyard, the Daze is another protection spell if you use a discard spell on yourself. I'm not running Probe because I have 8 Discard spells to see their hand, I don't want to be paying that much life and it makes mulligans harder. If you all think I should be running Probes I will definitely switch and see how I like them.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I'm not currently playing with Probe either, but it could definitely be nifty with Cabal Therapy.

[.dk]

I run 4 Griselbrand and 8 Discard spells to maximize the chances of getting a Griselbrand into the graveyard, the Daze is another protection spell if you use a discard spell on yourself. I'm not running Probe because I have 8 Discard spells to see their hand, I don't want to be paying that much life and it makes mulligans harder. If you all think I should be running Probes I will definitely switch and see how I like them.

Assuming that 4 Griselbrand is the best, wouldn't you want at least some number of your Ponders to be Careful Studies then? That card is extremely powerful with critical mass of creatures to draw into and pitch.

But personally, I do like Probe in this deck to be able to know what to do with my Therapies (use them as protection or a discard outlet for Griselbrand).

Also, if you do end up cutting down on your creature count, I would be wary of the sideboard Show and Tells.

[Mhenlo]

Assuming that 4 Griselbrand is the best, wouldn't you want at least some number of your Ponders to be Careful Studies then? That card is extremely powerful with critical mass of creatures to draw into and pitch.

But personally, I do like Probe in this deck to be able to know what to do with my Therapies (use them as protection or a discard outlet for Griselbrand).

Also, if you do end up cutting down on your creature count, I would be wary of the sideboard Show and Tells.

My list originally started with Careful Study but we don't have enough cards we want to discard. Reanimator has more threats they want to discard than we do. I wouldn't run Show and Tell w/o 4 Griselbrands, the Show and Tells have been good and another reason I like 4 Griselbrand and 8 Discard.

[.dk]

My list originally started with Careful Study but we don't have enough cards we want to discard. Reanimator has more threats they want to discard than we do. I wouldn't run Show and Tell w/o 4 Griselbrands, the Show and Tells have been good and another reason I like 4 Griselbrand and 8 Discard.

The difference really isn't that large though. Reanimator usually runs 7 threats to discard, and we could have 5 (or 6 if you include Children of Korlis, which really isn't bad in the graveyard). If you think there is a reason to run 4 Griselbrands, I do think Careful Study is worth a look as Entomb is by far the weakest part of this deck. That can save your discard spells as protection as well, which can be important. Ages ago, in the old old old un-optomized lists of Tin Fins, Careful Study was pretty great as a discard outlet for griselbrand as well as trading things like extra lands or discard spells for more reanimation spells. Is it great? Not really, but it certainly has some merits when running a full set of Griselbrands, in my opinion.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play two and two grizz and it still often enables a win.

[DoorDie]

I do think Careful Study is worth a look as Entomb is by far the weakest part of this deck.
Entomb gives you 4x virtual copies of Griselbrand, Emrakul, and Children, with it you have an effective 5+ copies of each. It enables you to cut 2x Griselbrand and barely notice. Card was banned for years because Reanimator was too powerful. This wouldn't be a deck without Entomb.

[Koby]

Entomb gives you 4x virtual copies of Griselbrand, Emrakul, and Children, with it you have an effective 5+ copies of each. It enables you to cut 2x Griselbrand and barely notice. Card was banned for years because Reanimator was too powerful. This wouldn't be a deck without Entomb.

.dk means that Entomb is the most vulnerable part of the deck. It's the one card without redundancy. This deck is very reliant on Entomb, hence the "weakest". We have 8 Reanimation, 9 accelerants, and 12 cantrips; but only 4 Entombs.

[.dk]

Thanks Koby - I suppose I could have stated that better, but I thought it was pretty self explanatory. Oh wells.

[DoorDie]

Ah, thought that seemed a bit absurd. I read that as a power-level comparison, my bad. Anyway, I haven't played this deck but can see one or two Study as being more practical self-discard.

[Undomian]

After reading over this thread a ton over the past few months, I decided to just buy the last $100 or so in cards I needed to finish this Friday night. I ended up kind of cobbling together a list with cards I wanted in the deck, so what I played was certainly not optimal, but I went 2-1 in my FNM with this:

3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Reanimate

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn


SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Echoing Truth
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Show and Tell
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will

I had a blast playing it. The deck felt absurdly powerful, and the only match I lost there was against an ANT deck that won the die roll and killed me before I could interact in games 1 and 3.

Even more exciting, though, was the next day. I walk into a GPT and see a room filled with Elves and Jund, with not a single Delver deck in sight. My usual deck, Tezzeret, would probably get steamrolled by that meta. Fortunately, though, I ended up bringing TinFins along to play some games for fun between rounds, and decided to just play it in this mono fair deck meta. The TO announced 5 rounds of swiss with a cut to top 4, and we sat down to play:

Imperial Painter: 2-1
Burn: 2-0
Miracles: 1-2
Miracles: 2-1
Merfolk: ID

Sneak and Show: 2-1
Miracles: 2-0

So, a last minute audible ended up earning me 2 byes to NJ. I'll still be playing Tezzeret in the main tournament I think, but TinFins seems (and was) incredibly good in a meta that isn't prepared for it.

[DavidHernandez]

After reading over this thread a ton over the past few months, I decided to just buy the last $100 or so in cards I needed to finish this Friday night. I ended up kind of cobbling together a list with cards I wanted in the deck, so what I played was certainly not optimal, but I went 2-1 in my FNM with this:

3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis

1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Reanimate

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn


SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Echoing Truth
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Show and Tell
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will

I had a blast playing it. The deck felt absurdly powerful, and the only match I lost there was against an ANT deck that won the die roll and killed me before I could interact in games 1 and 3.

Even more exciting, though, was the next day. I walk into a GPT and see a room filled with Elves and Jund, with not a single Delver deck in sight. My usual deck, Tezzeret, would probably get steamrolled by that meta. Fortunately, though, I ended up bringing TinFins along to play some games for fun between rounds, and decided to just play it in this mono fair deck meta. The TO announced 5 rounds of swiss with a cut to top 4, and we sat down to play:

Imperial Painter: 2-1
Burn: 2-0
Miracles: 1-2
Miracles: 2-1
Merfolk: ID

Sneak and Show: 2-1
Miracles: 2-0

So, a last minute audible ended up earning me 2 byes to NJ. I'll still be playing Tezzeret in the main tournament I think, but TinFins seems (and was) incredibly good in a meta that isn't prepared for it.

LOL. DUDE. AWESOME! That's really cool. Congrats.

[Frank the magic dog]

Has anyone tested with a single divining top in the main or sideboard ?

[.dk]

I haven't tested it, but it didn't seem like a good fit to me in this deck. We don't make a lot of mana to spare, and SDT is really good at being a mana sink. We also don't run a lot of spare lands either. If you do test it, I would be curious as to the results - both if it were useful or not, as well as if it was more useful than whatever card you replaced in the 75 for it.

[toor]

Whats the advantage of this deck over Reanimator?

I assume its faster g1, but are there certain matchups where this deck just has a better plan? D&T has been kind of irritating to me lately, but I am not sure this deck would have a much better matchup. It seems better vs Kararakas, but worse against revoker/Thalia/GY hate.

[Koby]

Whats the advantage of this deck over Reanimator?

I assume its faster g1, but are there certain matchups where this deck just has a better plan? D&T has been kind of irritating to me lately, but I am not sure this deck would have a much better matchup. It seems better vs Kararakas, but worse against revoker/Thalia/GY hate.

It's faster, and has alternate win-conditions with Emrakul and Tendrils.

[Mhenlo]

You will also win a larger % of games when Griselbrand is in play, we may not be as consistent with getting a fatty out but when we do we usually win.

[toor]

It's faster, and has alternate win-conditions with Emrakul and Tendrils.

I understand its marginally faster g1, but where (what matchups) do the alternate win conditions usually matter. Obviously tendrils is sweet vs things like Ensnaring bridge, glacial chasm. But I am wondering if its applicable in less corner case matchups I haven't thought of. I Assume its worse against delver.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's applicable every time you have to attack with Griselbrand so you can draw more. At this point, ToA is now your only option to let you win that turn. If Griselbrand hits the player, you only need 6 storm + Tendrils. It's a very good option a large amount of the time.

[Bobmans]

Why play this over reanimator. This is a win NOW list instead trying to outrace the opponent in a couple of turn with some control elements.
This is a "glass cannon" deck, but it is the only deck that can easiliy put T1 both a hasted griselbrand and emrakul at the table while your opponent hasnt even played a spell nor drawn a card. That is why you play TinFins my friend.
If you played Yaghmoth's Bargain + Soul Feast back in the days you will enjoy this even more.

Edit: This deck has a hard time playing beyond turn 2/3. If you can't fight thru countermagic or you get knocked back to much by discard, hatebears or chalice/taxing effects it is pretty much over. Also decks deck fully relies on the graveyard making it pretty easy to hate.

[cogitoergosum]

I haven't played this deck in a while but am thinking of bringing it to my weekly tourny. Question: has anyone tested contagion in the SB as an answer to pesky creatures (DRS, Thalia, Canonist, etc...)?

[Koby]

I haven't played this deck in a while but am thinking of bringing it to my weekly tourny. Question: has anyone tested contagion in the SB as an answer to pesky creatures (DRS, Thalia, Canonist, etc...)?

No, because against a majority of Hatebears, Massacre is just flat out better. DRS is the mainly the one that isn't built into a white shell, but playing around DRS is relatively easy, or already covered (Chain of Vapor, Pithing Needle).

[Higgs]

How are you guys feeling about the green splash for Decays instead of the white splash for Silence/Pull from eternity?

[movadomk5]

How are you guys feeling about the green splash for Decays instead of the white splash for Silence/Pull from eternity?

Don't forget the white is also so you can cast child.

[Higgs]

Sure, but you can reanimate Children or cast it with a Petal too.

[movadomk5]

Sure, but you can reanimate Children or cast it with a Petal too.

I would look at cutting the Tundra/Scrub for a Bayou for this and have been considering it for a but now.

[Higgs]

I think Tropical+Scrubland would be a better duo for casting Abrupt Decay than Tundra+Bayou if going 4 colors.

[movadomk5]

I think Tropical+Scrubland would be a better duo for casting Abrupt Decay than Tundra+Bayou if going 4 colors.

Key thing to think about the Tropical plan is its not fetchable off of a Marsh Flats. Bayou is fully fetchable.

[Richard Cheese]

How are you guys feeling about the green splash for Decays instead of the white splash for Silence/Pull from eternity?

As good as Decay is, I'm not sure it solves any problems the deck has postboard that Chain doesn't other than Chalice. Uncounterable is nice, but I'm just not sure it's worth the extra mana or the change in lands. That said, it seems pretty good in AnT, and green would also open up the possibility of Carpet postboard, which seems really nice when going off, since you can guarantee some mana available post-attack.

I say test it and let us know.

[Higgs]

In which case you can swap the Marsh Flats with Verdant Catacombs. Not entirely sold on the 4C idea though as I'm coming from the ANT camp and more comfortable with more stable manabases. In ANT you play 2 green sources so wastelands don't really become an issue to cast green spell post board. Red is almost always a non issue due to petals and LEDs. I don't think TinFins can get away with this much greed to support Silence and AD reliably. Haven't played the deck enough to form an informed decision though, that's why I was fishing for opinions. If there isn't a strong argument to support white in today's meta I'd rather just splash green and try to be as consistent as possible.

Ninja Edit: Richard cheese was faster than me. Planning on playing some events this month with TinFins, will let you guys know if I come up with something worthwhile.

[movadomk5]

With countertop, blue decks and chalice on the rise I wouldn't mind some decays.

[.dk]

I've played around with a green splash for Abrupt Decay among other things in the past as well. It can be really strong in the right meta, but I think you definitely want to be running a Mox Diamond in those lists to give you another Lotus Petal post-drawing with Griselbrand to be able to cast Children of Korlis and more consistent color fixing pre-combo.

I'm not sure I like Carpet of Flowers much in this deck, as we generally want to be combo-ing out super early in the game, meaning that our opponent's won't have many islands in play to make Carpet worthwhile. I could be wrong though.

Couple other cards to consider if you're going with a green splash that can be very strong in the right meta:

Reverent Silence (pretty great at killing counterbalance)
City of Solitude (pretty much the best sideboard card we could ask for - but it costs 3 and is green...)

[phazonmutant]

With countertop, blue decks and chalice on the rise I wouldn't mind some decays.

I tested the green splash quite a bit back when we were still developing the deck. I think the conclusions we arrived at then are still true - it's not too hard to splash G, but Decay just isn't worth it. Serenity and Chain of Vapor are just better. Miracles is such a bad matchup anyway that your only chance to win really is just hope and pray that Serenity resolves.

For reference: my list with Decays from right before Koby top 8'd with TinFins: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=706939&viewfull=1#post706939
The pages before and after should give some context about why we cut it.

[Richard Cheese]

Miracles is also going to have a lot more hate than just Counterbalance postboard, which is what makes it so damn tough. Meddling Mage, Karakas, Needle, RiP. There's no one card that fixes the matchup. Even though Decay deals with most of their hate, it's still 1-for-1 and they still have counters for your business spells afterwards. Honestly Abeyance is probably closer to a cure-all than anything else with that deck, and it still doesn't come close and costs too much.

[TraxDaMax]

The version I used to play just packed a Bayou side together with three decays.

[Ghost588]

Was really happy to see this top 16 last SCG. List looked a little weird with only 2 ponders.

[TheyCallMeTim]

What do we do about Containment Priest? What does the current sideboard look like?

[.dk]

Discard seems pretty good against it. Alternatively, win on T1 before it comes into play. :)

[Acclimation]

Bounce it, slaughter it and it's friends with Massacre, discard it, just win before it comes down, hope your opponent is dumb and taps out for something else the turn you combo off.

Just the standard work arounds.

[capricorn]

Whats the advantage of this deck over Reanimator?

I assume its faster g1, but are there certain matchups where this deck just has a better plan? D&T has been kind of irritating to me lately, but I am not sure this deck would have a much better matchup. It seems better vs Kararakas, but worse against revoker/Thalia/GY hate.

My experience has been that this deck has been an absolute beast against DnT. The karakas is irrelevant. I'm faster than their vial or thalia. Mother of runes does not protect against Massacre. Post-board I clear all the creature early or late and set my own pace because they don't use countermagic. I can take out probes post-board as well as the maindeck silence to bring in any combination of bounce, serenity and massacre. Serenity has been good but even letting someone resolve and feel safe with surgical is nuts when casting pull from eternity.

DnT is why I won't play sneak and show right now and this deck is too fast and TOO MUCH FUN to stop.

Too many people misplay around it.

My problem has been that I do not mull aggresively enough.

I have, however gone top 8 in 2 recent GPTs and intend on packing this for Jersey.

[capricorn]

What do we do about Containment Priest? What does the current sideboard look like?

I've just been thinking about treating it like any other card from death and taxes but have also considered running a 1-of Slaughter Pact in the board.

[capricorn]

I am actually curious if anyone is still playing Surgical Extraction in their sideboards and if so, for what matchup? I think i have only sided it in against regular reanimator and found that it only seemed to slow me down.

Anyone else have insights on it's uses and value?

[Acclimation]

I am actually curious if anyone is still playing Surgical Extraction in their sideboards and if so, for what matchup? I think i have only sided it in against regular reanimator and found that it only seemed to slow me down.

Anyone else have insights on it's uses and value?

I occasionally bring it in against Show and Tell and against ANT/TES. It can give us both disruption and information and without much cost to us.

Obviously, it's great against opposing graveyard decks, but it's not too bad to bring in against other combo decks.

[P-E]

Some tinfins players in NJ?

[Acclimation]

Some tinfins players in NJ?

There better be, the deck has a good ur delver matchup and can blow the unprepared out of the water.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Some tinfins players in NJ?

I will be registering an unconventional list in just an hour or so. Will certainly post a report of some kind.

[Wanderlust]

.dk is on Tin Fins today and as is 4-1 so far.

Update: .dk is now 6-1, just has to win one of the next two matches to day 2.
Update 2: .dk made it to day 2 on 7-2!

[.dk]

So... I took this beast to 12-3 good for 58th out of 4003 at GP NJ! Full report coming in the next couple days, but this was an incredibly epic event. This deck loves me sometimes.

[Darkgobs]

Hi guys!
I am following this thread since months and I play Tin Fins for quite a while now. If you are ok to excuse my non-native english grammar, I'd like to share with you some though I had:

Right now, it seems that Containment Priest is been played lot. Moreover, five of six white decks in the Top16 of the GP NJ played two Containment Priest in their sideboard. What is very interessting about this fact is that all thoses players chose to take Rest In Peace out for Containment Priest (hereafter: CP). And i bet this will be a more general tendence in the Legacy field for some time. And it seems to me that for us, CP is easier to deal with than RiP due to Massacre (which btw could maybe be packed x3 for this reason?). So CP could have been one of the best thing that could have happend to Tin Fins, excepted the fact that TC has pulled Shardless BUG out of the DTB, making Deathrite Shaman much less common (but still played, ofc: DRS is still one of the most broken card mtg has ever seen!).

So thank to TC and now CP, we have less DRS and less RiP ...guys, what the hell are we waiting for to take Tin Fins where it belongs: to the Top(8)? :tongue:


Now some questions i have:
1) I see more list playing two Children of Korlis MainDeck. Why could that be? Is that really needed?
2) Also, a lot of people are palying 2 Chrome Mox MD (plus 4 Petal Lotus, obv.). Again, is that needed and why? And what would you take out for doing +1 Children, +1 Chrome Mox?
3) Finaly, I know Pull from Eternity has allready been discussed here and was considered as too slow or useless, but it is played again in some lists. Why is that card bad exactly?
4) Thanks in advance! :smile:

[Koby]

Now some questions i have:
1) I see more list playing two Children of Korlis MainDeck. Why could that be? Is that really needed?
2) Also, a lot of people are palying 2 Chrome Mox MD (plus 4 Petal Lotus, obv.). Again, is that needed and why? And what would you take out for doing +1 Children, +1 Chrome Mox?
3) Finaly, I know Pull from Eternity has allready been discussed here and was considered as too slow or useless, but it is played again in some lists. Why is that card bad exactly?
4) Thanks in advance! :smile:

Most of he lists that run 2 Children and 2 Chrome Mox are just being lazy and copying old lists that made T8. Dont pay attention to these lists. You dont need more than 1 Children, and on rare occasion are 2 Chrome Mox justified.

Simarly, Pull from Eternity is cute but not the best tool in light of RIP pr Leyline of the Void which it cannot answer. In most cases Chain of Vapor and Massacre deal with all the pieces of hate you are most worried about.

[Deviruchi]

So... I took this beast to 12-3 good for 58th out of 4003 at GP NJ! Full report coming in the next couple days, but this was an incredibly epic event. This deck loves me sometimes.

Great result. I can't wait to read about some sweet DD blowouts.

[cab0747]

Hey guys! I just wanted to come in here ans see if any of you played (and beat) an Imperial Painter player in round 5 in NJ.

I was so blown away by Nic-Fit with a Doomsday package that I forgot to tell you how much I enjoyed they deck. I would assume you are on here since you had a "The Source" playmat.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Probably .dk.

[.dk]

yep, that would have been me. Was a fun match - thanks for the games! Glad to see so many sourcers there!

[cab0747]

yep, that would have been me. Was a fun match - thanks for the games! Glad to see so many sourcers there!

That was one of the most interesting matches I played all weekend. While I did not enjoy losing, seeing a Tin-Fins/Doomsday list that killed me with an Emrakul under a Shelldock Isle made losing the match a bit more enjoyable.

Again, it was a pleasure playing with you!

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Dk, can we see the list you ran, please?

[Koby]

Richard Cheese - We need an small update on the opening post with an updated reference list. I suggest we use .dk's maindeck and show a few sample SBs that have been successful. It seems people are still referencing the 2 Children lists that posted well about 18 months ago, which are out of date.

I submit this same list:

1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2-4 Griselbrand
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Brainstorm
3-4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
0-2 Lim-dul's Vault

4 Entomb

4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate

4 Cabal Therapy
0-1 Silence
2-4 Thoughtseize

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Also, here is my recommended Sideboard (non-transformational)
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Serenity
3 Silence
2-3 Surgical Extraction

[Richard Cheese]

I personally also feel that more than one Children is wrong, but Max Martinez did run 2 to 15th at SCG Oakland. Anyone want to defend 2x Children, or should we just decide that if he'd cut one, Max would have made top 8?

Either way, first post does need an update. Suggestions for additional changes?

[.dk]

Here is the list I ran. I should have a full writeup later tonight posted. I do have some comments on flex slots in the list, a few things I was debating with, and why I made the choices I did. I would probably not run this exact maindeck if I were on a reactive board - this transformation is very restrictive in terms of what cards can be in the 75 because of how Doomsday needs to work.


4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Children of Korlis
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Shallow Grave
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard:

1 Shelldock Isle
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Doomsday

[.dk]

Oh, and a couple more things. I would NOT recommend my 75 to people that aren't very familiar with Doomsday and/or may have a hard time constructing a Doomsday pile rather quickly on the fly. You'll likely end up losing to yourself a lot more than your opponents. But if you do think it's really sweet (and I do, obviously), test a ton of games with the transformation in and get used to some of the common piles you can make. But you probably need to do it against a real opponent, as goldfishing doomsday is more or less useless. Aside from that, check out the Fetchland Tendrils thread for a lot more info on Doomsday than is worth posting here.

Secondly - I think we should update the section on why to play this over other decks. Particularly ANT. The primer currently mentions IT and Ad Naus in it - but that deck is mostly a slower Past in Flames deck these days that is ALSO reliant on the graveyard. Ad Naus or Tutor Chain in a pinch, but PiF seems to be the engine of choice. They have more flexibility maindeck, but we're still multiple turns faster than they are, while giving our opponents less time to find graveyard hate.

[the driver]

Oh, and a couple more things. I would NOT recommend my 75 to people that aren't very familiar with Doomsday and/or may have a hard time constructing a Doomsday pile rather quickly on the fly. You'll likely end up losing to yourself a lot more than your opponents. But if you do think it's really sweet (and I do, obviously), test a ton of games with the transformation in and get used to some of the common piles you can make. But you probably need to do it against a real opponent, as goldfishing doomsday is more or less useless. Aside from that, check out the Fetchland Tendrils thread for a lot more info on Doomsday than is worth posting here.

Secondly - I think we should update the section on why to play this over other decks. Particularly ANT. The primer currently mentions IT and Ad Naus in it - but that deck is mostly a slower Past in Flames deck these days that is ALSO reliant on the graveyard. Ad Naus or Tutor Chain in a pinch, but PiF seems to be the engine of choice. They have more flexibility maindeck, but we're still multiple turns faster than they are, while giving our opponents less time to find graveyard hate.

Good stuff .dk. It was good to see you again at the GP. I might have to give your list a try some day. Doomsday has been treating me well lately but everyone needs a change of pace every now and then. I'd be curious to see what cards you cut for the transformation?

[.dk]

My tournament report is up here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28828-Onion-Bursting-of-DOOM!!!-58th-at-GP-New-Jersey-(12-3)-with-Tin-Fins

It's pretty long, so watch out. Lemme know if I missed anything, if it seems like I screwed anything up and don't mention it, or if you have any other questions about my list choices.

The maindeck is probably only right if you're running that exact transformation. If you have some flexibility, I think you can cut at least 1 Gitaxian Probe from the maindeck, or possibly go up to 61 cards. The flex slots as I see them in the maindeck are:

14th land
3rd Griselbrand
Reanimate
Mox Diamond (I'm pretty convinced this is better than the second Chrome Mox)
Silence
4th Gitaxian Probe
2nd Lim-Dul's Vault
3rd Thoughtseize

So some combination of those things. And the reactive board... maybe it's worth re-discussing that a bit given the current metagame. I did like your idea of Notion Thief Koby - that could be pretty real against Miracles or Treasure Cruise in some kind of crazy sideboard plan.

[.dk]

Oh crap, I posted the wrong 75. Fixed in my previous post. -1 LED, +1 Needle in the sideboard.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I took the following list to 5 -3 at GPNJ. Bear in mind, this is rather unconventional:


// Creature
1 Borborygmos Enraged
3 Griselbrand

// Instant
3 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
4 Soul Spike

// Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Unmask

// Artifact
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

// Land
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea

// Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Coffin Purge
3 Massacre
3 Pithing Needle
2 Serenity
3 Silence


Yes, a little unusual. Let me address some of the card choices.

Borborygmos Enraged: This guy isn't Emrakul. He's "only" a 7/7 and doesn't have either protection or the ability to tear aeons. However, what he does have is a unique activated ability that doesn't require the combat step, happens at instant speed and virtually always gets me there on its own. When you don't need to do tricky things to get around hate, him and Griselbee combine for 14 which is always sufficient when combined with the aforementioned activated ability, his triggered ability and/or the following card...

Soul Spike: Not Tendrils. Also not Children of Korlis, and not a creature at all. This card, while taking up more slots, doesn't require any mana investment (such as Petal >Ritual > Entomb > Shallow Grave). In exchange, it asks for 2 Black cards which are often otherwise dead in the combo phase. It doesn't have the same potential for gaining life as the Children do, however it can kill hate bears (even pre-combo) and blockers. Most of the time I point them at the opponents head, though it's flexibility is handy. Also Instant speed.

Unmask rather than Thoughtsieze. It's my Force of Will, enabling disruption while leaving enough resources behind to combo. Also provides more Turn 1s without Dark Ritual. Sometimes it even does both, providing disruption for the Turn 1 combo. Another handy function is that it allows me to discard the second guy during the combo phase without burning a Petal. Furthermore, also does Probe duty on Game 1 Turn 1 against an unknown deck.

4th Goryo's Vengeance, no Reanimate. Without a non-legendary creature to worry about, this is better for consistency and speed (haste). It also doesn't cost life which is often relevant.

Coffin Purge might seem random in the board where it functions similar to regular Reanimator builds. That is, it helps in the "mirror" but more so as an out to Surgical Extraction. Can be Entombed and flashed back. Iona, Shield of Emeria is common in my local meta.

Admittedly, this is not an ideal list. I had started this experiment as a mono black budget deck that was fairly competitive. I dipped into Blue because drawing cards is good and tweaked from there. It definitely sacrifices some things from the standard build but I like to think it has some tricks of its own. While no longer the budget list I started with, it's quite the fun deck and definitely holds its own. Perhaps there are some take aways from my experience with it for some other people. Personally, I will continue casting Soul Spikes.

I don't take the best notes as I am usually focused on the present moments. Anyway, on to the report.

As usual, I'm running pretty tight on time, need to resleeve my 75 and fill out a registration sheet. Luckily, a fellow local player (Albany, NY) named Kevin and his girlfriend graciously offered to help. I find my spot somewhere deep in the cavern of tables and sit down for the players meeting. Soon after, I receive a frantic call from my own lovely girlfriend whom had dropped me off at the venue and unfortunately got into a car accident. Happily, both she and my car are merely banged up a bit. However, anxieties are high as I try to settle in for a long day. My hopes are hanging on the prospect of short rounds, plenty of food in tow and my shiny sets of Unglued Rock / Paper / Scissors that had been cleared by the head judge.

Round 1: Titus on U/R
Titus is a seemingly inexperienced player that at first accepted my Rock / Paper / Scissors challenge but backed out upon hearing repeated announcements to only use random methods for deciding the play / draw. I'm a little disappointed but am happy to be paired against him.

G1: I mull to a 5 with 2 reanimation spells but not much else and see he has a hand of Delver, Brainstorm, Price of Progress, Forked Bolt, Lightning Bolt and Daze. I fall into a slow rut of Draw, Disruption Go and seeing lots of land but very few meaningful cards. I quickly find myself at 8 when I'm forced to Soul Spike his Delver, finding myself in reach of his business spells. Unfortunately my only other black cards are Grave / Goryo's, without an Entomb and die 3 turns later.

G2: I expected this matchup in which I decided the 3x Chain of Vapor is the way to go, in exchange for the Scrubland and a couple cantrips. I Unmask on the play without much else to do but luckily nab his Grafdigger's Cage, seeing Lands, Cruise, Lavamancer, Daze and Bolt. I feel more confident about this game, which is quickly eroded away as I continue to draw lands. I get hit by a Delver a few times then it's twin brother shows up.

0-1, 0-2. No bueno.

Round 2: Gary on U/R
I lose the play to a Rock Lobster.

G1: I keep a hand with Turn 1 disruption into Turn 2 combo, seeing Probe, Ponder, Swiftspear, Bolt, Brainstorm. He cantrips but I go for it anyway on my second turn, eventually finding out he was only able to dig up a Price and Pyroblast.

G2: In come the Chain of Vapors. I went back a forth a little on how to board these all day but settle on cutting a Therapy on the draw while always taking out the Scrubland. I have early discard which sees Land, Cruise, Double Bolt and Sulfuric Vortex. I guess that's hate for us, and while I recognize that it's slow, I take it anyway. He draws into the Cage before I am able to do anything meaningful while also having double FoW and a good clock. I begin to question my timing of disruption spells.

G3: I end up with a hand that has to find the other half of my combo while he has an average hand lacking any protection. He hacks at me in multiples of 3 until I once again find myself having to Spike a threat, putting me up to 6. He swings with his flying insect once more, after which I untap and win. Man, I love this deck sometimes.

1-1, 2-3.

Round 3: Mike with Burn
Once again I lose the epic battle of the Rock, Paper and Scissor variety.

G1: I keep a Turn 1 hand with no disrpution figuring that I can go for it depending on his Turn 1 play. He goes Mountain, Lavamancer, pass while I draw 21 and crush his dreams but not before Unmasking to get a look.

G2: I believe I side out Probes for Chains just because. Didn't take many notes but it must've hurt because my life total reads something like 6 Lightning Bolts.

G3: Kept a pretty good 7 with double disruption and half of my combo. I proceed to Unmask in case of hate but see a hand full of Bolts. I take the namesake one and follow it up with a Therapy on his double Lava Spike. I go off a couple turns later, attacking first with Griselbee to get out of reach then Spiking his Soul and doing the Borygmos finishing move.

2-1, 4-4, Turn 1 Count = 1.

Round 4: Mike the second on U/R
I finally win the play.

G1: I make a loose keep (bad in hindsight) that allows me to discard a Griselbee through the Turn 2 cleanup step, won't be doing that on the play again. Nonetheless, I make a demon on Turn 3 and win from 9 life.

G2: Board in Chains again for Scrubland, Probe and Therapy on the draw which seems to make sense. I have a very fast hand that allowed me to Dark Ritual, Therapy hitting his FoW then proceed to combo. I must've either Unmasked myself or had a Petal. I want to believe it was Turn 1 but didn't write it down. On second thought, I probably had another land.

3-1, 6-4, Turn 1 Count = 1.

Round 5: Chris with Burn
Back on the draw. I don't think my Lobsters, Lizards and Tigers like me.

G1: I Probe, seeing Fireblast, Chain Lightning x2, Lavamancer and land. Hooray for the Red Decks! Unfortunately I can't do anything for a while and he beats me down. I have a lot of mostly uselss discard spells which I pitch to Soul Spike his creatures, going from 11 to 15 twice. Eventually I pull it off, swinging for 7 and Seismic Assaulting him.

G2: I'm not sure what I opened with, but it was damn good, having only taken damage from myself and winning on Turn 1.

4-1, 8-4, Turn 1 Count = 2.

Round 6: Matt on Dredge
On the draw but feeling back in business.

G1: I have another Turn 1 hand without disruption but get to see what he's doing first. I'm starting to like being on the draw. He plays a Cephalid Coliseum, an LED and a dude while I have a little happy dance in my head. My first non-red matchup of the day, but a deck with even less interaction! I get in with my two legendary guys for 14 and trigger some enraging.

G2: He mulls to 5 or so while I keep yet another Turn 1. Life is good! After I Soul Spike him a bunch and make the lethal attack he says something like "man, is THAT what I've been doing to people all day!!" To which I think to myself: nope, it's better. I ask him what he was mulling to upon which I find out that Leyline of the Void is one-sided. Why I hadn't realized that at the time, I don't know.

5-1, 10-4, Turn 1 Count = 4.

Round 7: Anthony with U/R
Still losing Rock / Paper / Scissors. No matter how I choose to open matches, it always seems to be on the draw.

G1: He's got a hand full of Swiftspears which hit me for a quick 1 then 5 but can't keep up with my Turn 2 demon.

G2: The Chain of Vapor rodeo is becoming routine. Sadly I quickly lose to Delver and friends before doing anything meaningful.

G3: I decide to bring back a Probe and Therapy on the play in exchange for 2 Brainstorms. I open a very good 7 but decide to hold back for disruption. I nab a Graffdigger but still run into his well timed FoW and am forced to fall back on spot removal mode, which is losing proposition.

5-2, 11-6, Turn 1 Count = 4.

Round 8: David with UWr
I once again lose the play.

G1: Another Turn 1 hand against an unknown deck. I really don't mind, especially after he mulls to 4 and passes without making a land drop. I still have to be careful about Force of Will but go for it anyway. I eventually look at his hand solely for information and see the FoW without a blue card to go with it (Pyroblast, Bolt, Bolt). Nonetheless, I get in for 14 and trigger more seismic activity.

G2: I foolishly had put him on UR (Pyroblast should indicate UWr I suppose), bringing in the normal Chains. He plays a Turn 1 Karakas after mulling which lets me know there's White in his deck (something I had worried about going into the event). Regardless, I do my thing and get a demon in play and begin drawing 7 (which he allows). Soon after, Borygmos joins the legendary party and I swing. The Griselbee goes to hand while I get him down to 7 from the attack and a previous Soul Spike. Somehow, after triggering the mill 3 and having drawn 21 cards I only have 2 land. I go to Brainstorm as a last ditch effort which is met with a Pyroblast, one I knew he had but didn't think to Unmask before casting my lone Blue spell. I get into tilt mode and pass the turn, sitting at 2 life.

G3: With Day 2 hopes on the line, I draw a Turn 1 hand with Therapy then I go in the tank. I can play around FoW, discarding it and going for the Turn 2 or FTW and go for it. I decide to Therapy, naming Force to which he reveals the Cage. GG. He makes a 4/4 Lifelink, Vigilance Germ while I start making plans for dinner.

5-3, 12-8, Turn 1 Count = 5 (but should be 6).


Overall, I like the deck a lot. It certainly isn't perfect, but it's a fun platform for me to tweak going forward. It far exceeded my expectations and I hope someone else gives this iteration a try, or at least something along these lines. I just want to mention that in a GPT against Omni-Tell I was able to combo off of their Dream Halls with an Omniscience on the stack. The ability to win outside of the combat phase and at instant speed is definitely relevant. Please let me know what you think, especially if the feedback is constructive.

[capricorn]

So... I took this beast to 12-3 good for 58th out of 4003 at GP NJ! Full report coming in the next couple days, but this was an incredibly epic event. This deck loves me sometimes.

Congrads! That's sick!!!

I ended up like 4-3 or 5-3 before I just went to go get pizza. Then my buddy wanted to use it to blow people out in the win-a-box events.

[.dk]

Wow, innovative! Borborygmos is pretty sweet, and is a cool way to use different extra cards you've drawn. I like that it can win at instant speed too. Hmm, I'll have to think about that one, and whether it is better/worse/different than Emrakul and Children + Tendrils.

You get some cool transformations with Tendrils and Emrakul, but Borborygmos is realllllly compact. I do like getting free wins against things like Painter and High Tide (sometimes, with less experienced players) by having Emrakul in the deck. I would have to think about not running Reanimate though, as T1 Ritual, Discard Spell, Entomb, Reanimate is still really powerful. I wonder if you can cut Chrome Mox from that version too? I'm fascinated now...

I think we talked about Soul Spike really early on in the thread, or maybe that was just Richard Cheese and I brainstorming? I don't remember, but it is a pretty cool card in this deck, and makes some sense in your list without Tendrils. I'm not sold on Unmask though, as this deck already has all kinds of card disadvantage.

Thanks for posting your list and your report!

[.dk]

Congrads! That's sick!!!

I ended up like 4-3 or 5-3 before I just went to go get pizza. Then my buddy wanted to use it to blow people out in the win-a-box events.

I wish you would have brought me pizza. :( I was sooooo hungry

[Darkenslight]

...Okay, now I've seen everything - Mad Bobby Gormless in a combo deck? WANT MOAR!

It's a sort of a shame you can't just endlessly cycle your land like in the Tendrils build, as you lack Emrakul, though.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Wow, innovative! Borborygmos is pretty sweet, and is a cool way to use different extra cards you've drawn. I like that it can win at instant speed too. Hmm, I'll have to think about that one, and whether it is better/worse/different than Emrakul and Children + Tendrils.

You get some cool transformations with Tendrils and Emrakul, but Borborygmos is realllllly compact. I do like getting free wins against things like Painter and High Tide (sometimes, with less experienced players) by having Emrakul in the deck. I would have to think about not running Reanimate though, as T1 Ritual, Discard Spell, Entomb, Reanimate is still really powerful. I wonder if you can cut Chrome Mox from that version too? I'm fascinated now...

I think we talked about Soul Spike really early on in the thread, or maybe that was just Richard Cheese and I brainstorming? I don't remember, but it is a pretty cool card in this deck, and makes some sense in your list without Tendrils. I'm not sold on Unmask though, as this deck already has all kinds of card disadvantage.

Thanks for posting your list and your report!



...Okay, now I've seen everything - Mad Bobby Gormless in a combo deck? WANT MOAR!

It's a sort of a shame you can't just endlessly cycle your land like in the Tendrils build, as you lack Emrakul, though.

Thanks guys, it's definitely powerful and fun. Many of my opponents dropped their jaws or put on a big smile when I grabbed the Borborygmos, which is always cool to see when you're turn 1ing them. I used to run Emrakul, the Aeons Torn also as my go to target for the combat step but found it unnecessary. He spent some time in my sideboard after that until I eventually cut it completely. Being able to recycle the yard is something that I haven't ever needed to do. Typically I end up pitching 2 - 4 land, with the rare occasion of going with 7 outside of combat (something the regular list can't do anyway). I never really considered the Turn 1 play with Reanimate, though I imagine it doesn't happen often being a 1-of and requiring a few other cards in the opener to go with it. With multiple Unmasks I found myself having it plenty (40+% Turn 1 at one point in the GP) but I do have to hold it back sometimes until I draw another Black card. I think you guys will find that there are regularly situations where you can pitch one, especially since my build doesn't require bringing back Children of Korlis. I could probably cut the Mox completely to offset some card disadvantage, I only cast it once and only during combo on Saturday. Meanwhile, when Unmask is good, it's REALLY good. I may have mentioned Soul Spike many pages ago but I've mainly been lingering on the thread, seeing what I can learn and apply to my build. It would be very cool to see some other people try the tech out and get some more discussion going!

[Richard Cheese]

Borborygmos is definitely interesting. I thought .dk and I had discussed it at some point, but all I could find was a ridiculous conversation about using it to "combo off" in Modern with Pearl Lake Ancient. Worth noting that the German version is "Borborygmos in Wut".

It definitely has advantages/disadvantages compared to Emrakul. No shuffle effect is a big downside, although you aren't going for Tendrils so that's probably not as big of a deal. Annihilator can be relevant if there's Needle or Revoker on Griselbrand, and Emrakul definitely makes a better stand-alone wincon in the event that Grizlebees gets nailed by Surgical.

I'm actually more curious about Soul Spike. Specifically, how often you find yourself using it pre-combo to off creatures, mid-combo to draw more cards, and as a win-condition. On paper at least, 4 copies looks excessive and I wonder if it wouldn't just be better to run Tendrils and Children and have two more free spots, probably for the 4th Brainstorm and maybe LDV or the 4th Probe.

Regardless, I would do whatever it takes to get the 4th Brainstorm in.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I'm actually more curious about Soul Spike. Specifically, how often you find yourself using it pre-combo to off creatures, mid-combo to draw more cards, and as a win-condition. On paper at least, 4 copies looks excessive and I wonder if it wouldn't just be better to run Tendrils and Children and have two more free spots, probably for the 4th Brainstorm and maybe LDV or the 4th Probe.

Regardless, I would do whatever it takes to get the 4th Brainstorm in.

It's only something I do pre-combo when I'm way behind. Twice it saved me from those games and I came back to win, which is definitely relevant in tournament play. As a side note, I didn't see any Deathrites or Oozes at the GP. During the combo phase Spike does double duty in terms of getting more life to draw and as a win condition (typically it takes some combination of combat damage, Soul Spike and Seismic Assaulting). Sometimes I have to resort to non-lethal Griselbrand swings to get 7 extra cards and Soul Spike from there, but it's difficult to specify when it's a draw more and when it's THE win condition. I used to run 3 copies but found myself wanting it more. In this version, it IS my combo. I would be willing to try a Borborygmos version without Spike but first I'll be testing with 0 Chrome Mox and either +1 Brainstorm or Gitaxan Probe. I've just found that Ponder is the better card. Thanks for showing interest!

[.dk]

Very cool idea, and I'm interested in trying some experiments to see if there is something there. Richard does make a very good point that Emrakul is a key out to Pithing Needle on Griselbrand (and Borborygmos in your case, if they have 2 Needles). Soul Spike can deal with Revoker at least (and other hatebears). I'll see if I can figure out something I like and run it in a local or something sometime.

I believe Koby suggested Soul Spike a couple of years ago in the first 5-6 pages of the thread, if I remember correctly.

Definitely appreciate the new ideas for the deck!

[warfordium]

Koby loves him some Coldsnap-pitch-two cards. What's next, Commandeer?

[Richard Cheese]

Very cool idea, and I'm interested in trying some experiments to see if there is something there. Richard does make a very good point that Emrakul is a key out to Pithing Needle on Griselbrand (and Borborygmos in your case, if they have 2 Needles). Soul Spike can deal with Revoker at least (and other hatebears). I'll see if I can figure out something I like and run it in a local or something sometime.

I believe Koby suggested Soul Spike a couple of years ago in the first 5-6 pages of the thread, if I remember correctly.

Definitely appreciate the new ideas for the deck!

They wouldn't really need to Needle Borborygmos, since I doubt he's going to go very far in a deck with 14 lands without the card drawing power of mighty Mr. Onion Burst. I suppose you could sculpt a hand that would let you flash him in to nuke a couple hatebears through Karakas, but that seems like a bit of a corner case. Generally, I think lacking Emrakul just makes the deck slightly more all-in on Griselbrand.

[Michael Keller]

Koby loves him some Coldsnap-pitch-two cards. What's next, Commandeer?

"Tin Fins IV: The Quest for Commandeer".

[Koby]

"Tin Fins IV: The Quest for Commandeer".

Tin Fins V: Pitchworld Meets the Helavault

[TheyCallMeTim]

Very cool idea, and I'm interested in trying some experiments to see if there is something there. Richard does make a very good point that Emrakul is a key out to Pithing Needle on Griselbrand (and Borborygmos in your case, if they have 2 Needles). Soul Spike can deal with Revoker at least (and other hatebears).


They wouldn't really need to Needle Borborygmos, since I doubt he's going to go very far in a deck with 14 lands without the card drawing power of mighty Mr. Onion Burst. I suppose you could sculpt a hand that would let you flash him in to nuke a couple hatebears through Karakas, but that seems like a bit of a corner case. Generally, I think lacking Emrakul just makes the deck slightly more all-in on Griselbrand.

Pithing Needle is something I've only run into once. It's definitely a card but so is Grafdigger's Cage and my perspective of them is similar. You're going to need to Chain or Serenity the Cage, why should Needle be any different? Surely when your deck contains Emrakul and Needle is their only hate, you don't mind so much not drawing the bounce but that seems even more of a corner case than might be immediately apparent. Also, we have 8 reanimation spells so it seems reasonable to swing, sacrifice to flashback Therapy and do it all over again. With 14 damage (plus lifelink or seismic assault activations) and Soul Spike in the deck, even that line of play isn't far-fetched. That is if we don't kill them before their hate ever becomes a factor... ;)


I'll see if I can figure out something I like and run it in a local or something sometime.

I believe Koby suggested Soul Spike a couple of years ago in the first 5-6 pages of the thread, if I remember correctly.

Definitely appreciate the new ideas for the deck!

Thanks again. I look forward to hearing about your results!

EDIT: Most decks have only 1 - 2 Pithing Needles anyway.

[Koby]

Just throwing this out here:

Necrotic Ooze can copy both Griselbrand's and Borborygmos' abilities without the need for reanimation.
We're coming closer to Oozing with this trend, which isn't bad. Just different.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Koby loves him some Coldsnap-pitch-two cards. What's next, Commandeer?


"Tin Fins IV: The Quest for Commandeer".


LMAO. Of course, the list I ran Saturday also had Unmask. And I too have played with Fury of the Horde in Modern. I'm all about doing broken things. If we're playing with a walking Yawgmoth's Bargain we might as well cast cards for free!

[.dk]

Just throwing this out here:

Necrotic Ooze can copy both Griselbrand's and Borborygmos' abilities without the need for reanimation.
We're coming closer to Oozing with this trend, which isn't bad. Just different.

Oh, that's a great point. That pushes you more to a Buried Alive type of build to grab all 3, make an Ooze, and then kill them. At that point, that mana requirements become weird though, as you can't combo off of a single dark ritual. Interesting thoughts and ideas though.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Just throwing this out here:

Necrotic Ooze can copy both Griselbrand's and Borborygmos' abilities without the need for reanimation.
We're coming closer to Oozing with this trend, which isn't bad. Just different.

I tried to make it work in Modern but didn't get past the play testing stage. Just feels clunky and slow. Probably fun for people that want to go in that direction, I was just hoping to be competitive with Borborygmos.

[pandaman]

Oh, that's a great point. That pushes you more to a Buried Alive type of build to grab all 3, make an Ooze, and then kill them. At that point, that mana requirements become weird though, as you can't combo off of a single dark ritual. Interesting thoughts and ideas though.
Oozing is slower than Tin Fins, so if you're looking to exploit a meta with a fast combo deck, I'd be playing Tin Fins right how. Also, winning with Ooze without reanimation (I.e. casting it) is a significant part of Oozing's strategy and that hurts somewhat with all the Lightning Bolts running around (toughness 3). Tin Fins doesn't have that problem!

[.dk]

Oozing is slower than Tin Fins, so if you're looking to exploit a meta with a fast combo deck, I'd be playing Tin Fins right how. Also, winning with Ooze without reanimation (I.e. casting it) is a significant part of Oozing's strategy and that hurts somewhat with all the Lightning Bolts running around (toughness 3). Tin Fins doesn't have that problem!

So what you're saying is that once all of the Lightning Bolts change into Sudden Shocks to kill all of the Swiftspears in the UR Delver mirror, then we're golden to start playing Ooze? :)

[Richard Cheese]

Oozing is slower than Tin Fins, so if you're looking to exploit a meta with a fast combo deck, I'd be playing Tin Fins right how. Also, winning with Ooze without reanimation (I.e. casting it) is a significant part of Oozing's strategy and that hurts somewhat with all the Lightning Bolts running around (toughness 3). Tin Fins doesn't have that problem!

Provided you already have Grizzlebees and Boybandrigormortis in the graveyard, you can probably just win in response to a bolt. On second thought, maybe not without lifelink to draw you 7 more cards. Seems like you would have to have a lot more lands than TinFins currently runs to make that work without any combat damage.

Maybe there's a different archetype brewing here that's some kind of middle ground between TinFins and Oozing, hell you could potentially add green to run cards like Grisly Salvage and Commune with the Gods (into Animate Dead FTW), replace some/all of the IMSs with lands and ramp into Ooze. I agree with Panda though, why be susceptible to nearly all the same hate, but several turns slower?

[phazonmutant]

Tim - congrats on the 5-3. I'd just like to put your list in a little bit of perspective though. Your list is "innovative" but only for the sake of being different. There's no change that helps to make the deck more consistent or resilient. Unmask is great in your great hands, and awful in all the others. Cutting Tendrils and Children for Soul Spike makes it more likely to fizzle because Entomb isn't an enabler any more and Soul Spike gains far less life. It also makes your hands clunkier because there are 4 dead cards vs 2 - the fringe benefit of Soul Spiking a creature is about as likely to come up as Tendrils'ing out an opponent naturally or using Children to flashback Therapy. Cutting Emrakul means you can't win through Leyline of Sanctity in one turn by attacking, can't deal with very high life totals or Leyline of Sanctity + Ensnaring Bridge (by going infinite), and does essentially nothing if you reanimate him without Griselbrand. Adding an extra Griselbrand and cutting a Brainstorm, Probe, and Lim-Dul's Vaults do nothing to help consistency either. I can personally attest to having tried each of these cards (except Borborygmos) and discarding them because they created more inconsistent draws.

TinFins is so grossly powerful that it can pick up wins even with terrible lists - .dk day 2'd a GP with a list that looks like shit and has a terrible sideboard - but every refinement in the stock list has been made with consistency and resiliency in mind. That is the only way to go deep in a tournament.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it frustrates me when people who make changes to a stock list without understanding what those changes do or why the stock list looks like it does. The burden of proof is on the innovator.

[.dk]

T I can personally attest to having tried each of these cards (except Borborygmos) and discarding them because they created more inconsistent draws.


In general, I think I agree - but Borborygmos is a pretty cool idea to be able to use all of those extra lands you draw off of Griselbrand - similar to why I prefer the first Mox Diamond to the 2nd Chrome Mox. I don't think it's necessarily better, but it's a neat idea. In general, you're right though. The maindeck is all moving parts that interact with each other to create different lines. Even Gitaxian Probe, aside from just letting you see more cards, has great synergy with Lim-Dul's Vault if you're about to get killed the following turn. This is exactly why I don't really like the reactive sideboards for this deck - there just isn't enough room to bring in as much anti-hate as you would like.

I wouldn't want to discourage new ideas and if there is some solid reasoning/theory behind changes I'm all ears to give something a shot. That said, I do think we're pretty close to the end of the rope with existing cards now. We've tried a LOT of different stuff over the past couple of years to arrive where we are. But there could be another gem or angle out there that we've missed.



TinFins is so grossly powerful that it can pick up wins even with terrible lists - .dk day 2'd a GP with a list that looks like shit and has a terrible sideboard - but every refinement in the stock list has been made with consistency and resiliency in mind. That is the only way to go deep in a tournament.

I sure hope you're talking about my list from Atlanta a couple years ago. ;)

[TheyCallMeTim]

Tim - congrats on the 5-3. I'd just like to put your list in a little bit of perspective though. Your list is "innovative" but only for the sake of being different. There's no change that helps to make the deck more consistent or resilient. Unmask is great in your great hands, and awful in all the others. Cutting Tendrils and Children for Soul Spike makes it more likely to fizzle because Entomb isn't an enabler any more and Soul Spike gains far less life. It also makes your hands clunkier because there are 4 dead cards vs 2 - the fringe benefit of Soul Spiking a creature is about as likely to come up as Tendrils'ing out an opponent naturally or using Children to flashback Therapy. Cutting Emrakul means you can't win through Leyline of Sanctity in one turn by attacking, can't deal with very high life totals or Leyline of Sanctity + Ensnaring Bridge (by going infinite), and does essentially nothing if you reanimate him without Griselbrand. Adding an extra Griselbrand and cutting a Brainstorm, Probe, and Lim-Dul's Vaults do nothing to help consistency either. I can personally attest to having tried each of these cards (except Borborygmos) and discarding them because they created more inconsistent draws.

TinFins is so grossly powerful that it can pick up wins even with terrible lists - .dk day 2'd a GP with a list that looks like shit and has a terrible sideboard - but every refinement in the stock list has been made with consistency and resiliency in mind. That is the only way to go deep in a tournament.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it frustrates me when people who make changes to a stock list without understanding what those changes do or why the stock list looks like it does. The burden of proof is on the innovator.


I understand the realities of this. I have always admitted that my list is less than ideal, not even perfect for one playing Borborygmos. I was fully prepared for you guys to wipe the floor with my report, much more prepared than I was for the GP itself! With that perspective, I had already resigned to not trying to defend my choices against criticism. Meanwhile, .dk made significant changes himself and had much better results. Big congratulations to you, sir.

Without trying to further frustrate anyone, I will address those few points (though many of them come down to "IDC, I just like the card" which admittedly makes me more of a Timmy). With regard to Unmask, I have also used Thoughtsieze and am not convinced the former is necessarily better, it simply enables some powerful plays. Surely it also can be weak. Soul Spike likely suffers the same fate in that it's good when it's good and it's bad when its bad. Luckily I have Brainstorm to exchange late game cards for early game cards as the situation dictates. I will definitely be looking to get these back up to 4 in the maindeck. As someone mentioned earlier, Borborygmos is actually more "compact" in that it requires less resources to go off (compared to Tendrils), it's just that I actually found myself with 2 less slots as you mentioned. Personally, the fact that he allows for instant speed winning warrants some testing. There's definitely room for brewing here. As far as going infinite, I don't have the experience of needing to do that, maybe it happens more often for you guys. Along the same lines, I haven't ever seen Leyline of Sanctity + Ensnaring Bridge on the other side of the table and I'm not sure how the other lists would handle it any better. I have a lot of research and learning about Doomsday piles however, .dk likely has an out to it.

I hope it's clear that my intention wasn't to come in here, waving my list around in the hopes that everyone in would change the standard build. The reactions I've gotten so far (and results) greatly exceeded my expectations. My hope that some people might try it out is simply because it's fun and interesting (with an ego boost in there). Tins Fins does feel like it needs help though, so I'm happy that we're at least having the conversation. <reads more Doomsday articles...>

[.dk]

I understand the realities of this. I have always admitted that my list is less than ideal, not even perfect for one playing Borborygmos. I was fully prepared for you guys to wipe the floor with my report, much more prepared than I was for the GP itself! With that perspective, I had already resigned to not trying to defend my choices against criticism. Meanwhile, .dk made significant changes himself and had much better results. Big congratulations to you, sir.


Thank you! My changes were really just in the sideboard, and then what the maindeck needed to be to support Doomsday - 4 Gitaxian Probes are required. The way I look at my 60, it's as streamlined and compact as you can get with this build. Nothing cute or fancy.

And as I mentioned, I'm always interested in new ideas that have a slightly different application. Winning at instant speed without getting blown out by a flusterstorm on Tendrils (I mean, usually you would discard it anyway, but still) while making use of more extra cards in your hand is worth a look, I feel. In theory, I don't think it's better, but who knows? Children of Korlis kinda came out of left field, and that turned into an all-star IMO.



Without trying to further frustrate anyone, I will address those few points (though many of them come down to "IDC, I just like the card" which admittedly makes me more of a Timmy). With regard to Unmask, I have also used Thoughtsieze and am not convinced the former is necessarily better, it simply enables some powerful plays. Surely it also can be weak. Soul Spike likely suffers the same fate in that it's good when it's good and it's bad when its bad. Luckily I have Brainstorm to exchange late game cards for early game cards as the situation dictates. I will definitely be looking to get these back up to 4 in the maindeck. As someone mentioned earlier, Borborygmos is actually more "compact" in that it requires less resources to go off (compared to Tendrils), it's just that I actually found myself with 2 less slots as you mentioned. Personally, the fact that he allows for instant speed winning warrants some testing. There's definitely room for brewing here. As far as going infinite, I don't have the experience of needing to do that, maybe it happens more often for you guys. Along the same lines, I haven't ever seen Leyline of Sanctity + Ensnaring Bridge on the other side of the table and I'm not sure how the other lists would handle it any better. I have a lot of research and learning about Doomsday piles however, .dk likely has an out to it.


Leyline + Bridge is unbeatable with the maindeck, unless you can get lucky and swing in with Children of Korlis repeatedly.

Out of the sideboard, however, it's pretty easy to beat that board state with Doomsday. VERY easy to beat that with a Chain of Vapor/Tendrils pile (and you can use CoV as a storm engine in that case too, bouncing LED's and Lotus Petals if their life total is high and you have more in play). Something along the lines of this:

With SDT in play...

Ideas Unbound, LED, Chain of Vapor, LED/Ritual, Tendrils.

This costs 1UUU to get through the pile, and you can get an extra storm from Chaining your own LED as well - 7 storm just from that pile itself. So if you cast a discard spell, Dark Ritual, and Doomsday, you Tendrils for 20.

Or, if you're unfamiliar/uncomfortable with that, then make a Shelldock pile, cast Emrakul, and make the next card a Chain of Vapor to bounce Ensnaring Bridge, and swing in.

Shelldock, Emrakul, Cabal Therapy, Chain of Vapor, Doomsday.

This lets you discard their hand before you cast Chain of Vapor as well (better if you have another draw spell, so you can do both in the same turn you activate Shelldock). Then cast Doomsday again if you need to swing twice to make sure you don't deck yourself.

[Richard Cheese]

The way I look at my 60, it's as streamlined and compact as you can get with this build. Nothing cute or fancy.

Except for the fact that TinFins, by default, is both cute and fancy.

[.dk]

Except for the fact that TinFins, by default, is both cute and fancy.

Well of course. It's all in context, you see. Relative to the already cute and fanciness that is this deck, I wasn't running anything that was particularly cute and/or fancy relative to THAT. In the maindeck. ;) I'm pretty sure the the entire point of my sideboard is cute and fancy.

[warfordium]

Leyline + Bridge is unbeatable with the maindeck, unless you can get lucky and swing in with Children of Korlis repeatedly.


couldn't resist chiming in here as I did about 6 damage with Child attacks once in the pseudo-mirror (my opponent was on the brain freeze version) after a probe revealed he could (and was likely waiting to) go off in response to my attempt. unless he was worse then i was giving him credit for. which he might have been.

the Children of Korlis beatdown plan. its an actual thing.

[.dk]

couldn't resist chiming in here as I did about 6 damage with Child attacks once in the pseudo-mirror (my opponent was on the brain freeze version) after a probe revealed he could (and was likely waiting to) go off in response to my attempt. unless he was worse then i was giving him credit for. which he might have been.

the Children of Korlis beatdown plan. its an actual thing.

Damn right it is! I watched Koby win a game on MODO in similar fashion. And I know on at least 1 occasion, I've swung with Emrakul to wipe their board, they are at 2 or 3, and then cast Children to attack for the kill.

[Richard Cheese]

Damn right it is! I watched Koby win a game on MODO in similar fashion. And I know on at least 1 occasion, I've swung with Emrakul to wipe their board, they are at 2 or 3, and then cast Children to attack for the kill.

Have also won off Emrakul into Children beats (I think it's in a report a few pages back). We should make an achievement badge or something. Or maybe I can just find more copies in Russian and start sending them to anyone with confirmed Children kill.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Thank you! My changes were really just in the sideboard, and then what the maindeck needed to be to support Doomsday - 4 Gitaxian Probes are required. The way I look at my 60, it's as streamlined and compact as you can get with this build. Nothing cute or fancy.

Leyline + Bridge is unbeatable with the maindeck, unless you can get lucky and swing in with Children of Korlis repeatedly.

Out of the sideboard, however, it's pretty easy to beat that board state with Doomsday. VERY easy to beat that with a Chain of Vapor/Tendrils pile (and you can use CoV as a storm engine in that case too, bouncing LED's and Lotus Petals if their life total is high and you have more in play). Something along the lines of this:

//Crazy Doomsday Scenario



I can't be the only one interested in the Doomsday transformation that has little experience with that deck. Is it possible to make a primer of piles that only apply to our deck? Are Shelldock / Emrakul and Tendrils our only "trees"?


Except for the fact that TinFins, by default, is both cute and fancy.

I'm going to have to get my Griselbees altered with purple top hats, tobacco pipes and/or cups of tea.

[.dk]

I can do that to get people started, but really Doomsday is a weird card. Approaching a Doomsday pile in a formulaic fashion/pile memorization is probably not going to get you really good with that transformation. The key to resolving that spell successfully is understanding what every piece of your deck can do in any situation. Take the example in my report when I was forced to play through Daze and Blood Moon, and use a Brainstorm in the pile to win - it would be very hard to provide a "script" of sorts for game states like that.

But, it is certainly a place to get started. I'll see if I can write some basics up and ask Richard Cheese to add it to the primer when he makes the next update.

To answer your other question directly - I don't really see any other win conditions we could have when resolving Doomsday besides Emrakul or Tendrils. I toyed around with replacing the Tendrils Maindeck with Laboratory Maniac (this wins when you go infinite with Children of Korlis and Griselbrand too). This could give you access to some straightforward Lab Maniac Doomsday piles, or some really unconventional ones as well. For example, you could put Griselbrand under Shelldock Isle and use his draw ability to win off of Lab Maniac. I'm not sure how good that is, but it is flexible in that you could put another Doomsday in your pile, and just win off of swinging in with Griselbrand and casting Doomsdays to make sure you don't deck yourself.

/edit: I would totally alter my Griselbrands to be a Metal Shark if I had any kind of artistic ability

[movadomk5]

Have also won off Emrakul into Children beats (I think it's in a report a few pages back). We should make an achievement badge or something. Or maybe I can just find more copies in Russian and start sending them to anyone with confirmed Children kill.

I have a sexy foil Russian Children :)

[TheyCallMeTim]

I can do that to get people started, but really Doomsday is a weird card.

(...)

But, it is certainly a place to get started. I'll see if I can write some basics up and ask Richard Cheese to add it to the primer when he makes the next update.

That would be helpful, thank you. I just might have to irritate opponents at my local events until I get enough proficiency. Hell, it might even be a good introductory course to DDFT.


To answer your other question directly - I don't really see any other win conditions we could have when resolving Doomsday besides Emrakul or Tendrils. I toyed around with replacing the Tendrils Maindeck with Laboratory Maniac (this wins when you go infinite with Children of Korlis and Griselbrand too). This could give you access to some straightforward Lab Maniac Doomsday piles, or some really unconventional ones as well. For example, you could put Griselbrand under Shelldock Isle and use his draw ability to win off of Lab Maniac. I'm not sure how good that is, but it is flexible in that you could put another Doomsday in your pile, and just win off of swinging in with Griselbrand and casting Doomsdays to make sure you don't deck yourself.

Sounds even more contrived and difficult to pilot. Think I'll stick with Doomsday's "easy mode", if it ever had one.


I have a sexy foil Russian Children :)

Better stop there before NSA starts investigating us for human trafficking!

[.dk]

That would be helpful, thank you. I just might have to irritate opponents at my local events until I get enough proficiency. Hell, it might even be a good introductory course to DDFT.


I've already started working on it - Richard Cheese will be including it in the next primer update.

That said, if you're interested in DDFT itself, I would go build and test that deck rather than relying on this transformation. It's far better at doing what it does and gives you many more options and lines to deal with specific situations. I've been playing DDFT for a couple years now, and honestly, that experience is what made the transformation even remotely playable for me. And I obviously screwed it up a couple times as well.

[phazonmutant]

In general, I think I agree - but Borborygmos is a pretty cool idea to be able to use all of those extra lands you draw off of Griselbrand - similar to why I prefer the first Mox Diamond to the 2nd Chrome Mox. I don't think it's necessarily better, but it's a neat idea.
...
I wouldn't want to discourage new ideas and if there is some solid reasoning/theory behind changes I'm all ears to give something a shot. That said, I do think we're pretty close to the end of the rope with existing cards now. We've tried a LOT of different stuff over the past couple of years to arrive where we are. But there could be another gem or angle out there that we've missed.

Oh absolutely, I'm not trying to discourage innovation at all! Case in point, your Doomsday transform is beautiful. I'm just opposed to senseless changes because they're cool. About Borborygmos - I guess I don't see it. I think we can agree that Emrakul is more objectively powerful and needed for the more involved lines (going infinite, etc), so it's a question of him vs. Tendrils. Tendrils is unlikely to do something on its own, but bbgurl never will. I've also definitely swung in with Emrakul and Tendriled out the opponent with the graveyard shut off (RiP, etc).


I sure hope you're talking about my list from Atlanta a couple years ago. ;)

Oh I completely forgot that you can claim two day 2s with TinFins now! That's sick. Definitely I was talking about the GP Atlanta list.



Without trying to further frustrate anyone, I will address those few points (though many of them come down to "IDC, I just like the card" which admittedly makes me more of a Timmy).

Hey, fair enough. One of the great things about Legacy is you can get what you want out of it and still have some sweet plays. My objection was more to coming in and presenting your list with no disclaimers of such or justification.


With regard to Unmask, I have also used Thoughtsieze and am not convinced the former is necessarily better, it simply enables some powerful plays. Surely it also can be weak. Soul Spike likely suffers the same fate in that it's good when it's good and it's bad when its bad. Luckily I have Brainstorm to exchange late game cards for early game cards as the situation dictates. I will definitely be looking to get these back up to 4 in the maindeck.

The argument that you can just Brainstorm the pieces back is not a good reason to run more combo pieces if fewer will do just fine. One of the reasons Sneak & Show and Omniscience are better than Hive Mind is because they have fewer dead draws. Sometimes you just don't have Brainstorm. Undoubtedly Unmask is more powerful when it's good. It's pretty terrible when you mulligan or are trying to rebuild though, which is why Thoughtseize is more consistent overall.


As someone mentioned earlier, Borborygmos is actually more "compact" in that it requires less resources to go off (compared to Tendrils), it's just that I actually found myself with 2 less slots as you mentioned. Personally, the fact that he allows for instant speed winning warrants some testing. There's definitely room for brewing here. As far as going infinite, I don't have the experience of needing to do that, maybe it happens more often for you guys. Along the same lines, I haven't ever seen Leyline of Sanctity + Ensnaring Bridge on the other side of the table and I'm not sure how the other lists would handle it any better. I have a lot of research and learning about Doomsday piles however, .dk likely has an out to it.

As mentioned above, I don't see it as being more compact because I believe Emrakul is non-negotiable. Instant speed win is definitely nice, but that requires you to draw 6-7 lands in 14 cards, and not have been able to just win on your mainphase. Unlikely.
I haven't actually seen Leyline + Ensnaring Bridge either, but I have seen multiple hate pieces. The way it works with Emrakul is you float infinite mana, then you can Chain of Vapor infinite times. Chain their hate piece. If they sac a land to bounce Griselbrand, just recast him. Discard Emrakul, draw Chain of Vapor, repeat. It takes about 5 minutes (if you're quick!) to get to a graveyard pile like that, but it's doable.



I've already started working on it - Richard Cheese will be including it in the next primer update.

That said, if you're interested in DDFT itself, I would go build and test that deck rather than relying on this transformation. It's far better at doing what it does and gives you many more options and lines to deal with specific situations. I've been playing DDFT for a couple years now, and honestly, that experience is what made the transformation even remotely playable for me. And I obviously screwed it up a couple times as well.

I'm excited to see it! I sleeved up your 75 and battled some matches against Miracles. I came out way more impressed with Doomsday than I expected - it's FAST! I tried piloting DDFT for a couple weeks a while ago and couldn't figure out the cantrips in the deck - when do I Top, when do I Ponder, and what do I look for? Since then I've played more with Ponder Miracles so it comes more naturally. Still, I wish there was a better out to Counterbalance than hope to resolve Doomsday into Shelldock. Still, I won like 4 of 6 games. Very, very cool build.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I've also definitely swung in with Emrakul and Tendriled out the opponent with the graveyard shut off (RiP, etc).

How then? I can't imagine the deck hard casting Emrakul...


As mentioned above, I don't see it as being more compact because I believe Emrakul is non-negotiable. Instant speed win is definitely nice, but that requires you to draw 6-7 lands in 14 cards, and not have been able to just win on your mainphase.

Or some combination of Soul Spike (with 7 more cards) and land. The supposed necessity of Emrakul doesn't make sense to me, but I won't call it "senseless"! Lol. You don't have to agree with my approach, and that's okay. I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their lists. I just posted something that I said was unconventional and shared my results with it. No hard feelings!

[.dk]

I'm excited to see it! I sleeved up your 75 and battled some matches against Miracles. I came out way more impressed with Doomsday than I expected - it's FAST! I tried piloting DDFT for a couple weeks a while ago and couldn't figure out the cantrips in the deck - when do I Top, when do I Ponder, and what do I look for? Since then I've played more with Ponder Miracles so it comes more naturally. Still, I wish there was a better out to Counterbalance than hope to resolve Doomsday into Shelldock. Still, I won like 4 of 6 games. Very, very cool build.

Really? I've found resolving Doomsday usually pretty easy against Miracles. One strategy is to use your Dark Rituals early to cast Sensei's Divining Top and shred their hand with discard. Then you can build up 3 black IMS and cast Doomsday when they don't really have a hand. It's tough to lose once you actually get Doomsday through. Terminus is definitely real, but worst case you could Pithing Needle SDT after you've found what you need.

I'm not too scared of Counterbalance itself when I'm on Doomsday - they barely have any 3 drops maindeck, so it's really a matter of trying to get the few counterspells they have out of their hand.

And like you said, it's really fast. You can always just try to cast T1 Doomsday and see if they have a Force of Will.

[phazonmutant]

How then? I can't imagine the deck hard casting Emrakul...

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Sometimes it comes up that there's a 1-turn window to swing in with Emrakul before the graveyard is off, then you have to kill them somehow. One example - my BUG Delver opponent Surgicalled my Griselbrands and had an active Deathrite. I was able to force through an Emrakul with two reanimation spells, but he was at like 3. I played Tendrils a couple turns later to kill him.



Really? I've found resolving Doomsday usually pretty easy against Miracles. One strategy is to use your Dark Rituals early to cast Sensei's Divining Top and shred their hand with discard. Then you can build up 3 black IMS and cast Doomsday when they don't really have a hand. It's tough to lose once you actually get Doomsday through. Terminus is definitely real, but worst case you could Pithing Needle SDT after you've found what you need.

I'm not too scared of Counterbalance itself when I'm on Doomsday - they barely have any 3 drops maindeck, so it's really a matter of trying to get the few counterspells they have out of their hand.

And like you said, it's really fast. You can always just try to cast T1 Doomsday and see if they have a Force of Will.

I haven't tried out the power-disruption strategy. Definitely something to keep in mind - it's weird that Doomsday requires so little in the way of initial resources! The issue I was finding in the couple games I lost was that they have enough permission to just counter the first Doomsday and waiting to disrupt them allows them to get Counterbalance online and shut off the disruption. Sure, they don't have many 3s, but they do have a pile of counterspells! I definitely need to test it some more.

[.dk]

I haven't tried out the power-disruption strategy. Definitely something to keep in mind - it's weird that Doomsday requires so little in the way of initial resources! The issue I was finding in the couple games I lost was that they have enough permission to just counter the first Doomsday and waiting to disrupt them allows them to get Counterbalance online and shut off the disruption. Sure, they don't have many 3s, but they do have a pile of counterspells! I definitely need to test it some more.

I actually don't find them to have that many counterspells. They play what, 4 Force of Will, 2 Counterspells, maybe a spell pierce? That's not so bad. And if they land Counterbalance, see if you can bait them into flipping top, and then cast Doomsday and win. :) Yeah, they'll get there on a flip of Entreat or Council's Judgment sometimes, but that's just playing against Miracles. I don't want to claim I feel "heavily" favored against them, but I definitely feel favored after transformation.

[Richard Cheese]

How then? I can't imagine the deck hard casting Emrakul...



Or some combination of Soul Spike (with 7 more cards) and land. The supposed necessity of Emrakul doesn't make sense to me, but I won't call it "senseless"! Lol. You don't have to agree with my approach, and that's okay. I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their lists. I just posted something that I said was unconventional and shared my results with it. No hard feelings!

Oh you can definitely hardcast Emmy if you want to. Once you get an activation with Children, it's generally not to bad to go infinite. You just draw as much as you can, then use all your petals and rituals, then bin Emrakul to shuffle them back in. I think Caleb or Koby is on camera looping this and chaining rituals to hardcast Emrakul. I think Phazonmutant actually did it with Lotus Petals once too. Personally I've never had to do it or wanted to because I shuffle slow like a child and I like free time between rounds.

So Emrakul is more than just a wincon, he's actually part of a separate engine as well.

Perhaps a more interesting question is: can we replace Tendrils with Babaganoush and gain anything? For one, you can essentially tutor him up with Entomb, and make equally infinite damage with him by looping Children/Emrakul. He's also one mana less to go off with, although once you're going for Tendrils mana is rarely an issue, but rarely isn't never. Assuming your opponent hasn't lost any life and even going off post-combat, you need to pitch 5 lands, which isn't tooooo bad.

OTOH, damage vs. loss of life is sometimes a big difference, Tendrils can close out a game after an Emrakul Swing if you get Griselbrands extracted, or keep you in the game in a pinch, whereas Bibimbap is pretty much dead until you have Griselbrand online, except for maaaaaaybe blowing up a Revoker or something. Also, Storm is just a broken mechanic, although if you're at the point where you're casting Tendrils, you're probably not worrying about counters anyway.

I may test that swap out, as soon as I can come up with something satisfactory to call that guy besides Borborygmos, because that is just terrible. Like, my fingers hurt every time I type it out.

[Koby]

I may test that swap out, as soon as I can come up with something satisfactory to call that guy besides Borborygmos, because that is just terrible. Like, my fingers hurt every time I type it out.

If we're keeping with the Tin Fins theme, then Bob'sburgers makes a good sub in for Emmy.

[.dk]

Doomsday Transformation

As there have been many questions on the Doomsday transformation, below is a quick primer on that version of the deck specifically. Firstly, the 75 that I ran at Grand Prix New Jersey:

4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Children of Korlis
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Shallow Grave
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard:
1 Shelldock Isle
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Doomsday

The standard cards to take out to swap in the entire 15 card sideboard are:
-4 Shallow Grave
-3 Goryo's Vengeance
-1 Reanimate
-1 Children of Korlis
-4 Entomb
-2 Griselbrand

The benefits of this transformation:

1. Sidesteps graveyard hate (except in weird circumstances where you need a specific card in your graveyard that you've already cast to search for in your Doomsday pile - this is an extreme corner case and can be prevented)
2. Since Doomsday is a 1 card combo, it makes the deck much more resilient to Discard post sideboard (particularly alongside Sensei's Divining Top)
3. Doomsday into Tendrils of Agony is still very fast, and can beat decks with fast clocks with counter backup.
4. Doomsday into Shelldock/Emrakul is an excellent plan against both Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance. These decks are usually slow, and have a hard time countering 3 CMC cards (Doomsday). Shelldock actually casts Emrakul, so it is uncounterable.

The weaknesses of this transformation:

1. Doomsday is very weak to Burn. Since you're losing half your life, a stray Fireblast or Price of Progress can ruin your day
2. Wasteland + Karakas can be a big problem for the Shelldock plan. You only have access to 1 Pithing Needle
3. Surgical Extraction on Doomsday if they've countered or discarded it is pretty rough to recover from. You don't have access to Burning Wish like DDFT does, which means your ability to Storm is neutered.
4. This is more mana hungry than the maindeck - your payoff spell (Doomsday) has the same casting cost as your 2 card maindeck combo (Entomb, Shallow Grave), however searching with Sensei's Divining Top can eat a lot of mana - this makes you slower and more vulnerable to Wasteland

When to Transform
Against most decks, I would ways transform game 2 if you've shown them reanimation and entomb game 1. Some exceptions to this would be UR Delver and Burn. Neither of these decks play much graveyard hate, and the Maindeck is slightly faster than the transformation, so you're probably better off sticking with Tin Fins. Furthermore, if you're on the play in a sideboarded game, Tin Fins is a little more potent for the same reason - if you believe they have a fast clock and slower graveyard hate (Deathrite Shaman), it may be correct to stick with Tin Fins as you have 2 turns before their graveyard hate comes online.

Card Choices
I wanted to address card choices specifically here, as there are some in the maindeck that I don't believe the Doomsday transformation works without.

Gitaxian Probe. Don't think about going less than 4. You need them to draw into your Doomsday piles in addition to all of the normal uses (drawing, Cabal Therapy, etc.)

Emrakul. Some people have eschewed him for other creatures in some builds - he's a monster when actually cast off of Shelldock Isle as you get your extra turn trigger. Unless you're running a different win condition maindeck that is conducive to a pass the turn pile (namely Lab Maniac), then you need Emrakul in your 60.

Lim-Dul's Vault. You only have 4 business spells maindeck: 4 Doomsdays. LDV is the best way to find more, and essential to making sure that you're not spending many turns cantripping (and wasting cantrips that could draw into your pile) just to find Doomsday. 4 Doomsdays alone aren't enough for consistency, in my opinion.

Casting Doomsday
A quick primer on how to actually USE the transformation in a basic sense. There is a lot to explore and get familiar with here, so this is just something to get you started. For more in depth information, you should look into the Fetchland Tendrils (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7800-Deck-Fetchland-Tendrils&highlight=fetchland+tendrils) thread or looking into the Stormboards (teamstormboards.proboards.com/)

Disclaimer: while I do reference some basic piles here, that is NOT how I would recommend learning to play this. Each part of your deck is a potential piece of your Doomsday piles, depending on the game state. Knowing and figuring out how all of your cards interact in this sense are the key to being successful with Doomsday. Think of it as 5 Vampiric Tutors that stack all 5 cards in whatever order you want - get the 5 cards that win the game from your current game state, and recognize what they are before even casting Doomsday.

Cantrips
One of the most important things to understand with Doomsday is how to use your cantrips. They are critically important both before and after casting Doomsday. There are numerous articles detailing how to most efficiently use Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top to find a specific card - I would recommend searching for those. However... you may not want to burn all of them early, and specifically Gitaxian Probes. The reason is that these cards give you the ability to draw your first card in your Doomsday piles after Doomsday has resolved. They enable you to keep casting spells and advancing your game plan on that same turn.

Shelldock Isle
There are 2 basic strategies for using Doomsday in this deck. The first, and simpler case, is using Shelldock Isle to cast Emrakul. Shelldock lets you cast the card hidden underneath it when you have 20 or less cards in your library - perfect for Doomsday! A typical pile that you would build would

Top-------------------------------------------->Bottom
Pithing Needle, Shelldock, Emrakul, Dark Ritual, Doomsday

This is assuming that you have 2 draw spells available. Use your first cantrip to draw Pithing Needle, and play it naming Wasteland or Karakas (whichever is right given the game state). Then use your next draw to draw into Shelldock Isle, play it hiding Emrakul. Pass the turn (don't die!), then untap, drawing Dark Ritual, and cast Emrakul, triggering an extra turn. On your following turn, you Attack, Annihilate, and then cast Dark Ritual -> Doomsday if you need to attack to win again (making sure you don't deck yourself)

That's the simple version. You can also put Chain of Vapor, discard spells, or whatever you need to disrupt your opponent.

Another option would be to end with Rituals and Tendrils of Agony:

Top----------------------------------------------->Bottom
Shelldock, Emrakul, Lotus Peal, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony

This can let you attack for 15, and then finish them with Tendrils for 4-6 to finish the job on the same turn.

Tendrils of Agony (DDFT Mode)
Storming out with Doomsday is much more difficult (for the inexperienced), but much more potent strategy. A few basics are below, but much more information is available in other place. I'll start with the most basic pile for Tendrils of Agony and walk through how that works and assume that you get the mechanics from there, and just reference piles from that point. The storm counts referenced are from the pile itself and casting Doomsday, and does not include any Rituals, Petals, Discard, etc. from before casting Doomsday.

Assumptions: Sensei's Divining Top in play, 1UU available post Doomsday
Top----------------------------->Bottom
Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, Ponder, Tendrils (8 Storm)

1. Flip SDT to draw Ideas Unbound (IU)
2. Cast IU (using UU available) drawing SDT, LED, LED
3. Cast SDT (using 1 available), cast 2xLED
4. Crack both LED's for UUUBBB
5. Flip SDT to draw Ponder
6. Cast Ponder drawing Tendrils
7. Cast Tendrils

Similar to this, if you have another draw spell (say, Gitaxian Probe) in your hand, a very similar pile can be created with no floating requirements. The draw spell can effectively be turned into a Lion's Eye Diamond in the pile, reducing the cost of the pile, like this:

SDT in play, Gitaxian Probe in hand:
Top-------------------------->Bottom
LED, Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, Tendrils (8 Storm)

The Probe in hand draws LED, then use that mana in reponse to flipping SDT to draw IU and combo off from there. Likewise, you could use a Brainstorm or Ponder in hand like Gitaxian Probe in this example, for a pile cost of U.

Sometimes, however, you don't have SDT in play (that's the easy mode for the deck). In those cases, you'll need a cantrip to draw into your pile instead. A basic pile:

Gitaxian Probe in hand, UU available
Top-------------------------->Bottom
LED, Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, Tendrils (7 Storm)

And just like above, the double cantrip version to cost reduce:

2x Gitaxian Probe in hand
Top---------------------------------------->Bottom
LED, Ideas Unbound, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Tendrils (8 Storm)

The last scenario I'll show gets you around a hate permanent like Gaddock Teeg or Leyline of Sanctity that would prevent you from casting Tendrils or targeting them. This uses the singleton Chain of Vapor (CoV) to replace a draw spell in your Doomsday pile:

SDT in play, 1UUU available
Top--------------------------->Bottom
Ideas Unbound, LED, CoV, LED, Tendrils (8 Storm)

This uses the interaction with SDT and CoV to replace a draw spell. Once you've gotten to the board state where the LED and SDT are back on the battlefield, you are left with CoV in hand - the text below the "bounce" part on CoV is the important part (the sac a land to copy part). The sequence works like this: Tap SDT to draw a card, and maintain priority. Then cast CoV targeting SDT, sac a land to then bounce your LED, and sac another land to bounce Teeg/Leyline on their side of the battlefield. SDT's ability then resolves, and you draw the second LED. Replay SDT and LED (for additional storm) and the second LED, sac the LED's for black and tap SDT to draw Tendrils and win.

Again, this is far from any kind of comprehensive guide to casting Doomsday. There are MANY more ways to use the card to win, particularly with Tendrils of Agony. Be sure to check out the links at the beginning of the post. There are probably other goofy piles with Shelldock too. A hilarious example I just thought of would be something like...

Pre-Doomsday, you play Shelldock Isle and hide Tendrils of Agony below it. You cast Doomsday, and then make a pile that makes you the most mana possible, and ensures that you can get 2x SDT on the battlefield. Draw through your piles to make your mana, and flip tops and recast them using all the mana you've made except for U. Once you're done, activate Shelldock Isle casting Tendrils for U. I'm pretty sure this is awful, but it is pretty damn funny!

I hope this helps to get people started with the Doomsday transformation. Good luck bursting your Onions of DOOM!

/edit: also credit where it's due - this transformation in particular came from Lejay (of course) on the stormboards back in 2013

/edit: fixed a typo someone in the BR thread showed me. 2.5 years later. Neato.

[.dk]

So, I decided to just make a post that Richard Cheese can link to in the primer, as I'm pretty sure that just a "quick" Doomsday section would push the opening post too long. Let me know if there is anything confusing there or if I could explain it better, and I'll modify it.


If we're keeping with the Tin Fins theme, then Bob'sburgers makes a good sub in for Emmy.

Oh I like that one! :)

[TheyCallMeTim]

I may test that swap out, as soon as I can come up with something satisfactory to call that guy besides Borborygmos, because that is just terrible. Like, my fingers hurt every time I type it out.

My girlfriend and I literally laughed out loud at "Babaganoush", though I personally call him "Boobyguy".


Doomsday Transformation

As there have been many questions on the Doomsday transformation, below is a quick primer on that version of the deck specifically...

All of this is epic and much appreciated. Seriously guys, you have all made this one of the best threads on the Source.

[Richard Cheese]

Updated the first post/primer. Fair warning, I've been drinking absinthe and watching the first two seasons of Sealab the whole time, so there might be some typos...or mistakes...or just outright lies. Send all corrections and changes to Eggers in Pod 6.

[CabalTherapy]

Updated the first post/primer. Fair warning, I've been drinking absinthe and watching the first two seasons of Sealab the whole time, so there might be some typos...or mistakes...or just outright lies. Send all corrections and changes to Eggers in Pod 6.

Very entertaining and enjoyable primer. This has to be definately one of the best threads (still searching for the best) on the source. I will be smashing some faces with this deck in
foreseeable time, although I am still not sure which SB configuration I should choose. I tend to go with the usual protection plan with Needle, Massacre and Chains and stuff but since I am
a storm player I would love to create some awesome Doomsday piles. Nonetheless, good job and a nice read.

[Bobmans]

Doomsday Transformation

This is just freaking awesome. I never believed in transformational board in TinFins, but since i have actually played a Doomsday list lately AND still having a weakspot for TinFins i am a believer (again).

Great performance with the list and thanks for writing down the primer for the transformation. Also great work with the OP, the deck on its own was pretty awesome (reminds me of the days where Yawgmoth's Bargain and casting multiple Soul Feast was actually a tier 1 standard deck), but you've (Richard Cheese) added a cool flavor to this deck. Great work guys.

I'll be spinnin' noodles (Chinese Emrakul) and Top's the coming period as my weapon of choice.

[.dk]

Thanks! I hope people can find it useful. It really just takes a lot of practice. I've you've already been playing DDFT though, you're pretty golden as some of the less obvious lines (like Brainstorm piles) aren't so tough to figure out.

@Bobmans - since it sounds like you've been playing Doomsday a bit already, any feedback on the post or things that I could add/change?

[Richard Cheese]

Cleaned up OP a bit more. Rearranged the sideboarding section, cleaned up some formatting.

[Koby]

Silas-- good work on the primer. Its excellent and thorough!

[Bobmans]

Thanks! I hope people can find it useful. It really just takes a lot of practice. I've you've already been playing DDFT though, you're pretty golden as some of the less obvious lines (like Brainstorm piles) aren't so tough to figure out.

@Bobmans - since it sounds like you've been playing Doomsday a bit already, any feedback on the post or things that I could add/change?


You have covered most important DDFT plays required to get starting with this list. One thing is for sure, people should not be picking this up just because it looks cute. Playing TinFins is pretty straight forward, but DDFT plays completely different and is far from easy. This is like playing do different decks swapping between them in every matchup. Talking about requiring a huge amount of focus.

Anyway, i have some minor things i would like to ask.

First, you mentioned the following pile. But i am wondering about how you are going to play out this pile and what cards you require more to get it done. I think something like this: the follow on after resolving Doomsday would be Probe > Shelldock hiding Emrakul, cast brainstorm > Draw Petal, Ritual, ToA > put 2 other cards back, pass turn, untap, attack, storm into ToA. This would require (next to being able to cast Doomsday) have 1 Brainstorm and 2 other cards at hand with 1 blue mana available and no land drops this turn. Also you have to know that your opponent cannot disrupt this plan. Is that correct or did you have something else in mind?



Another option would be to end with Rituals and Tendrils of Agony:

Top----------------------------------------------->Bottom
Shelldock, Emrakul, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony

This can let you attack for 15, and then finish them with Tendrils for 4-6 to finish the job on the same turn.


Second, i understand the reasoning for black fetchland and all black duals (except for Tundra) and only the basic Swamp. It makes casting Doomsday on lands often more easy, but most of the times i want to go for basic Island and start cantripping while being Waste proof. When i look at your list i feel like i want to replace either a Tundra or a U.Sea for an Island and replace 2 M.Flats for 2 F.Strands. Can you explain your reasoning for not bringing a single Island?

Third, maybe can you explain against which matchup's (archetypes) you want to go DDFT or TinFins in either or both G2/3? And where you mashing your sideboard in your deck regardless of going to play TinFins or DDFT? lol.

Again, a lot of respect for playing this level of difficulty of a deck for so many consecutive round

[.dk]

First, you mentioned the following pile. But i am wondering about how you are going to play out this pile and what cards you require more to get it done. I think something like this: the follow on after resolving Doomsday would be Probe > Shelldock hiding Emrakul, cast brainstorm > Draw Petal, Ritual, ToA > put 2 other cards back, pass turn, untap, attack, storm into ToA. This would require (next to being able to cast Doomsday) have 1 Brainstorm and 2 other cards at hand with 1 blue mana available and no land drops this turn. Also you have to know that your opponent cannot disrupt this plan. Is that correct or did you have something else in mind?


You're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Ideally, you'd have 2 draws available - saw an SDT and Gitaxian Probe in hand, but it's not required. Tendrils is insurance. Doomsday, Probe into Shelldock, and hide Emrakul. Pass. Next turn, activate Shelldock, cast Emrakul, extra turn trigger, draw Lotus Petal. Pass... to yourself. Draw Dark ritual. Attack with Emrakul for 15. Cast Petal, Ritual, tap SDT to draw Tendrils, cast Tendrils for 6.

You can easily slow roll the pile too, if you want/need. Or make Shelldock, Emrakul, Dark Ritual, Tendrils, Doomsday is extra extra insurance. Don't forget that Shelldock shortens your pile by 1 card and that you have another draw on your extra turn from your Emrakul trigger.



Second, i understand the reasoning for black fetchland and all black duals (except for Tundra) and only the basic Swamp. It makes casting Doomsday on lands often more easy, but most of the times i want to go for basic Island and start cantripping while being Waste proof. When i look at your list i feel like i want to replace either a Tundra or a U.Sea for an Island and replace 2 M.Flats for 2 F.Strands. Can you explain your reasoning for not bringing a single Island?


If you want basic Island, then yes, I would run 2 Flats and 2 Strands. I would replace the 3rd Underground Sea with Island in that case. With all of the UR Delver decks everywhere, I was guessing that there would be less Wasteland around in general (and at least in my matches, I was right), and I would rather have the USea than Island. The 4 Flats/4 Delta fetch configuration gives you perfect access to all of your lands in my configuration - when you start adding in Island it gets a little weirder and you will sometimes get screwed by having the wrong fetch (you really need a swamp, both Seas are in play, and you have a Flooded Strand in your hand - sad days).

But one thing to remember is that we do have 4 Lotus Petals and a Chrome Mox, and those can help fix in a pinch as well. Chrome Mox exiling LDV is Underground Sea, after all. I cast cantrips off of Petals now and then as well, particularly when I'm transformed into Doomsday, as you don't need the non-land IMS density as high as you do with the maindeck.



Third, maybe can you explain against which matchup's (archetypes) you want to go DDFT or TinFins in either or both G2/3? And where you mashing your sideboard in your deck regardless of going to play TinFins or DDFT? lol.

Again, a lot of respect for playing this level of difficulty of a deck for so many consecutive round

That's a good idea - I'll add a section in the post.

As far as any larger competitive event that I'm taking seriously though, I always shuffle all 15 in and then take them out. Anything else is just laziness and giving away information to your opponent. :)

[Bobmans]

You're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Ideally, you'd have 2 draws available - saw an SDT and Gitaxian Probe in hand, but it's not required. Tendrils is insurance. Doomsday, Probe into Shelldock, and hide Emrakul. Pass. Next turn, activate Shelldock, cast Emrakul, extra turn trigger, draw Lotus Petal. Pass... to yourself. Draw Dark ritual. Attack with Emrakul for 15. Cast Petal, Ritual, tap SDT to draw Tendrils, cast Tendrils for 6.

You can easily slow roll the pile too, if you want/need. Or make Shelldock, Emrakul, Dark Ritual, Tendrils, Doomsday is extra extra insurance. Don't forget that Shelldock shortens your pile by 1 card and that you have another draw on your extra turn from your Emrakul trigger.



If you want basic Island, then yes, I would run 2 Flats and 2 Strands. I would replace the 3rd Underground Sea with Island in that case. With all of the UR Delver decks everywhere, I was guessing that there would be less Wasteland around in general (and at least in my matches, I was right), and I would rather have the USea than Island. The 4 Flats/4 Delta fetch configuration gives you perfect access to all of your lands in my configuration - when you start adding in Island it gets a little weirder and you will sometimes get screwed by having the wrong fetch (you really need a swamp, both Seas are in play, and you have a Flooded Strand in your hand - sad days).

But one thing to remember is that we do have 4 Lotus Petals and a Chrome Mox, and those can help fix in a pinch as well. Chrome Mox exiling LDV is Underground Sea, after all. I cast cantrips off of Petals now and then as well, particularly when I'm transformed into Doomsday, as you don't need the non-land IMS density as high as you do with the maindeck.



That's a good idea - I'll add a section in the post.

As far as any larger competitive event that I'm taking seriously though, I always shuffle all 15 in and then take them out. Anything else is just laziness and giving away information to your opponent. :)
I guess i am making it more complicated, but thats also the beauty of Doomsday. There are near endless posibilities. The thing is seeing them in the moment you need to :-)

The more i think about the mana the more i am starting to feel that Tundra is the odd man out. In the situatipn you discribed you can offcourse get Scrubland to.
When playing TinFins are nearly always went for Island -> cantrip and t2 swamp. Holding back a fetch for white dual in case i need to cast the child.
Having both Tundra and Scrubland was only security. And the only white spell is childran anyway unlike regular tinfins (silence, pull from eternity, serenity).

I have played the list for a couple of games and at first it felt a bit akward playing 2 decks. Also the DDFT list felt weird missing Burning Wish, but the more i played it the more i am liking it. Its like playing ANT while normally you play TES. Also pulled of some T1 kills with doomsday. thats just awesome if you first pulled of a t0 Griselbrand plus Emrakul....

Edit: the list is like perfect. I dont think that there is anything i could/want to change other than that basic Island..

[.dk]

You're totally right. After discussing with Wanderlust last night and thinking about it more, Thndra definitely becomes island, and you leave the seas alone. That still gives you the same amount of lands to be able to case doomsday off of lands alone. I still don't like Flooded Strand much, but if you really want a basic island, then that is the swap to make.

/edit: actually strand isn't AWFUL in that case, as it still gets everything but basic swamp. So maybe if you're in a meta that realt wants basic island, then you can play 4 strand and 4 delta. And you make really good points about tundra - that could probably be replaced in my NJ list with another Underground Sea.

[Bobmans]

Actually strand isn't AWFUL in that case, as it still gets everything but basic swamp. So maybe if you're in a meta that realt wants basic island, then you can play 4 strand and 4 delta.

Cool, i guess i will keep testing 2/2 split between MFlats and FStrand with a 1/1 split between Island/Swamp.

Another thing that has me spooking, how do we get rid of Chalice of the Void. If theres 1 i suppose we can play around avoiding cards at that specific CMC, but what if they drop Chalice @ 1 and 0-2 turns later one on 0? Most of those decks also run Wasteland (MUD/Lands). Did you come across situations where Chalice was a problem?

Edit: Game 1, Chalice @ 1 is really a nightmare for TinFins i have experienced.

[.dk]

Chalice is a lot worse for tin fins than it is for Doomsday. Chalice + wasteland means you can't go for shelldock, but you could conceivably make some piles that don't use 1 drops. Like... Mini tendrils, cast doomsday. Then mini tendrils again. If they have Chakice on 0 and 1, then your only out is Shelldock/Emrakul.

My preferred strategy: win the Die roll and kill them on T1.

[Wanderlust]

Thndra definitely becomes island.
We also discussed turning Tundra into Gemstone Mine. I'm leaning in that direction personally right now - I think we want all of our lands to help cast Doomsday postboard.

[lilevo]

So I saw this list a few months ago http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/247479#online since I already had all the cards for it I built it on MODO and played a bunch of games since the deck is so much fun to play, now I have only played it in one daily event and I finished 3-1 and that was a month ago. I am seriously planning on playing the deck tomorrow at the SCG Open in Richmond. Are there any changes that you guys would make? nothing too drastic though.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If I were you, I would drop the third Gris for LED #4. Also, I'd like to see 2 Infernal Tutor in the 75, or at bare minimum, one in the board. That's just me.

[Bobmans]

Funny list. TesFins.
Anyway i think that a BW plan might open up a more solid midgame, sacrificing some speed. Does it make the list more resilient? TinFins has problems fighting beyond Turn3 and having access to stuff like Pyroclasm/Massacre might enable a combo vs a developed board for say DnT (revoker on GBees, Container Priest, Spirit of the Lab, Thalia) or enable possibilities to play around it and win via another path. Edit: i think i agree on adding 4tg led and some infernal tutors, but i have no idea how your is actually gonna play in the field.

Yesterday i took DoomFins out for a spin and while it felt strong i made some errors and punted 1/3 rd of the games i played. Also TinFins bricked itself a couple of times AND i had to mull like 4 times to 4/5 with no land hands. Haha.
On the other hand, DDFT was awesome as people had no clue what i was doing and i was switching between TinFins and DDFT which really became mindgames.i played vs Burn (mindbreak trap), Goblins (thalia/rip), smallpox, UW Wizardsblade (meddling mage on emrakul prevented shelldock route, lol) and DnT.
I had a lot of trouble vs a resolved Thalia. Luckily the DnT player is playing that list really solid so testing against him should be going to improve the MU overall.

Anyway, playing the list and actually comboing with TinFins and Doomsday was awesome.

[Pomegrant]

So I saw this list a few months ago http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/247479#online since I already had all the cards for it I built it on MODO and played a bunch of games since the deck is so much fun to play, now I have only played it in one daily event and I finished 3-1 and that was a month ago. I am seriously planning on playing the deck tomorrow at the SCG Open in Richmond. Are there any changes that you guys would make? nothing too drastic though.

Hey, I'm the builder of this deck and I'm glad you're playing it! This is last minute but I hope you end up playing it.

I have changed the list up since then a bit. I'm not playing Abrupt decay in the sideboard and swapped the Tropical for a basic swamp.

My current sideboard looks like:
3 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warens
1 Meltdown
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Exhume
1 Buried Alive
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Void Snare
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Show and Tell

I have thought about Infernal Tutor before in the sideboard but I don't think it is very good. If you have enough mana to Burning Wish into Infernal Tutor then cast something else, you usually have enough mana to be able to kill with either a storm card or have a giant monster attacking. I could see applications in which you would use it to build storm or something but I don't know if that is the best use of Wish board space.

When I designed the deck initially, I had put burning wishes into the deck because I felt that TinFins when you're comboing had problems with actually converting. Sometimes you didn't make enough mana or bricked. I wanted to put LEDs in because it makes a ton of mana and you could crack them between Griselbrand activations if you could afford to discard the cards. Burning Wish became a way to play answers to their hate cards as well as being able to not have to play Tendrils in the main deck saving some space. It takes up space in one area, losing reanimation effects for less mana, to be more expensive reanimation effects but also be answers to hate and the deck's win condition. I felt that this flexibility was a good trade off. When I had played the original TinFins list, I felt that there was a ton of pressure put on actually starting the game with Entomb. You had a ton of ways to Reanimate Griselbrand so that was never a problem, but if you didn't have Entomb it seemed that the deck didn't do much. Having only two copies of griselbrand also made it hard to be able to Therapy/Thoughtseize yourself too.

I think dropping a Griselbrand for a Lion's Eye Diamond is possible but it makes it less likely to be able to cast Shallow Grave then crack and LED when you have Grisel in hand. This does come up a non-zero amount of times and is a feasible way to combo.

In terms of how I think it's placed in the meta, I think it's pretty solid right now. You have good matchups against slower combo decks as you just get to go full force. The delver decks are getting really inbred so not having to play against Spell Pierce is great. Death and Taxes is a fine matchup in my mind because a lot of their hate comes on turn two on the play at the fastest and you still have outs with Burning Wish. A lot of people in general have cut their graveyard based interaction and there are a lot less Deathrite Shamans running around too. I think if you're playing combo you might want to give the Burning Wish version a fair shake.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Shallow Grave doesn't target, so you can in fact cast Grave, pop led and then allow for you to reanimate the Griz.

[.dk]

I tried Burning Wish a couple years ago, ableit without LED, and honestly didn't like it very much. It takes too much mana to go off, and really wrecks the manabase. Without LED's anways, I don't think the deck makes enough mana to support with + targets - furthermore, it slows the deck down a lot. One of the best things Tin Fins has going for it is being one of the fastest decks in the format with very stable mana. Lim-Dul's Vault can find more Entombs if you need them, or a combination of discard + Griselbrand and is on color. And it's an instant, so you can cast it on your opponent's EOT and then go off on your turn. That's a pretty significant difference. This deck just doesn't make the same kind of mana that ANT or TES do (no LED, no Cabal Ritual, no Rite of Flame) - and for good reason. The mana investment to go off is only 3 - you don't need all of those. By adding in tutors like IT and Burning Wish you're putting a huge strain on the mana requirements.

One of the other benefits this deck has is that you don't have to dump all of your resources into comboing off, so if you do run into countermagic, you're not left with an empty hand. LED turns this deck into more of a glass cannon and is tough to recover from if you're disrupted.

[Omega87]

Hey guys,
i am a former reanimator player, but i switched to the onion burst side of life ;-)
Maindeck is pretty much standard, but the side is also transformational.
I just switch to ANT, 4 Cabal Ritual, 4 LED, 4 Infernal, 1 Preordain, 1 AdN, 1 PiF.
I just don't get the DDFT engine in my head, so i keep it a little bit more simple.
Works quite good so far on Magic online. Could not test it on a bigger event yet.

[Pomegrant]

I tried Burning Wish a couple years ago, ableit without LED, and honestly didn't like it very much. It takes too much mana to go off, and really wrecks the manabase. Without LED's anways, I don't think the deck makes enough mana to support with + targets - furthermore, it slows the deck down a lot. One of the best things Tin Fins has going for it is being one of the fastest decks in the format with very stable mana. Lim-Dul's Vault can find more Entombs if you need them, or a combination of discard + Griselbrand and is on color. And it's an instant, so you can cast it on your opponent's EOT and then go off on your turn. That's a pretty significant difference. This deck just doesn't make the same kind of mana that ANT or TES do (no LED, no Cabal Ritual, no Rite of Flame) - and for good reason. The mana investment to go off is only 3 - you don't need all of those. By adding in tutors like IT and Burning Wish you're putting a huge strain on the mana requirements.

One of the other benefits this deck has is that you don't have to dump all of your resources into comboing off, so if you do run into countermagic, you're not left with an empty hand. LED turns this deck into more of a glass cannon and is tough to recover from if you're disrupted.

I don't think it hurts the mana base too much as you're only playing a Volcanic Island and a Badlands to support the Wishes. Especially with Wasteland in the decline, less people are punishing you for being three colors.

I'm not a fan of this argument because I think the cards line up the same way. I'm still playing four entomb which you cast on one, into reanimation effect. There are less reanimation effects, but any ritual and burning wish gets you Griselbrand. I do make a good amount of mana with 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Lotus Petal, 3 LED, 1 Chrome Mox. You don't need much more initially to go off through a Burning Wish. Lim-Dul's Vault and Burning Wish work similarly where they are both two mana, and require you to eat an entire turn to find the combo piece you need, except Burning Wish is more useful when you're actually comboing off. Burning Wish fixes some of the problems in which the deck completely relies on having an Entomb.

I disagree about LED making it more of a glass cannon. There are times in which it is certainly awkward but I don't think the downsides of the card outweigh the upsides. Having another avenue to get griselbrand into the graveyard is strong as well as being able to just make way more mana once you have griselbrand in play. LED is only bad against hard counters but I don't think this deck was ever too concerned with them anyway. LED nukes soft permission.

I think you're making a lot of assertions about how the deck plays without trying it. The deck is not nearly as refined in terms of figuring out what are the proper numbers of all the cards and such since I'm a testing group of one, but I think there is a lot of power here that should be at least tried and considered.

[.dk]

I don't think it hurts the mana base too much as you're only playing a Volcanic Island and a Badlands to support the Wishes. Especially with Wasteland in the decline, less people are punishing you for being three colors.

I'm not a fan of this argument because I think the cards line up the same way. I'm still playing four entomb which you cast on one, into reanimation effect. There are less reanimation effects, but any ritual and burning wish gets you Griselbrand. I do make a good amount of mana with 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Lotus Petal, 3 LED, 1 Chrome Mox. You don't need much more initially to go off through a Burning Wish. Lim-Dul's Vault and Burning Wish work similarly where they are both two mana, and require you to eat an entire turn to find the combo piece you need, except Burning Wish is more useful when you're actually comboing off. Burning Wish fixes some of the problems in which the deck completely relies on having an Entomb.

I disagree about LED making it more of a glass cannon. There are times in which it is certainly awkward but I don't think the downsides of the card outweigh the upsides. Having another avenue to get griselbrand into the graveyard is strong as well as being able to just make way more mana once you have griselbrand in play. LED is only bad against hard counters but I don't think this deck was ever too concerned with them anyway. LED nukes soft permission.

I think you're making a lot of assertions about how the deck plays without trying it. The deck is not nearly as refined in terms of figuring out what are the proper numbers of all the cards and such since I'm a testing group of one, but I think there is a lot of power here that should be at least tried and considered.

Yes, it's not as big of a deal with less wastelands around, that's true.

And no offense, but I have tried it and tested it. A lot. Not in your exact configuration, but I've tried each of those separately. Burning Wish... sorta "fixes" the fizzle rate post combo, but not really. It just looks that way on the surface. To make Burning Wish work, you need a guaranteed 2 IMS post drawing with Griselbrand. 1 to make R, and 1 to make B, plus either rituals or LED in your case. It's more difficult to make Children during your combo turn in this list because of that as well. You've drastically increased the likelihood that you've used a Shallow Grave to make Griselbrand to combo off, which is 1 less way to make Children without having to cast Burning Wish. You've trimmed 2 Vengeance that could have been used pre-combo, and the 1 Reanimate that could be used to make Children.

So if you're going for Tendrils you've placed greater mana constraints on what would normally be 1 IMS + Entomb + Reanimate/Grave to make Children and go infinite because you need to make 2 colors post drawing. Yes you have LED's you can crack in between draws, but that is a huge risk if you've drawn half of what you need off of your first 7.

Then there is the case where you want to make Griselbrand and Emrakul pre-combat and kill them that way (such as if they have Leyline of Sanctity). The chances of you drawing into what you need to make Emrakul are drastically reduced by 2 cards maindeck (Goryo's Vengeance), which is a fair amount considering you're only drawing 14 cards maximum.

You do run more ways to bin Griselbrand/Emrakul than the UB version, but you've done that at the cost of disruption in the deck as well. You're running less discard spells, which serve the same purpose, and do the same job without forcing you to discard your entire hand. This allows for more resiliency in the long game. I'm also not sure how you can make an argument that a card that, while it makes mana, forces you to dump your entire hand to the graveyard doesn't make the deck more of a glass cannon. You have more potential to go all in - that's exactly one of the strengths of the deck as is.

LDV is strong because it is an instant and easier on your colors. It does still work mid-combo as well if you really need it to because you still have brainstorms, ponders, and probes in your hand. Although that usually isn't relevant.

Overall, by adding LED and Burning Wish, you've diminished 2 of the major strengths of the deck. You don't need to commit your entire hand or dump 7 card draws to LED making mana. And you need a very minimal amount of mana to actually combo off as a single dark ritual pays for all of your combo pieces. You've turned a cheap 2 card combo into a more expensive 2 card combo and added LED's to compensate for that. I can't see how that is worth the trade for the very small fizzle rate of the current build.

Do we need more detail in the opening post about what we've tested, tried, cut, and why?

[Pomegrant]

Yes, it's not as big of a deal with less wastelands around, that's true.

And no offense, but I have tried it and tested it. A lot. Not in your exact configuration, but I've tried each of those separately. Burning Wish... sorta "fixes" the fizzle rate post combo, but not really. It just looks that way on the surface. To make Burning Wish work, you need a guaranteed 2 IMS post drawing with Griselbrand. 1 to make R, and 1 to make B, plus either rituals or LED in your case. It's more difficult to make Children during your combo turn in this list because of that as well. You've drastically increased the likelihood that you've used a Shallow Grave to make Griselbrand to combo off, which is 1 less way to make Children without having to cast Burning Wish. You've trimmed 2 Vengeance that could have been used pre-combo, and the 1 Reanimate that could be used to make Children.

So if you're going for Tendrils you've placed greater mana constraints on what would normally be 1 IMS + Entomb + Reanimate/Grave to make Children and go infinite because you need to make 2 colors post drawing. Yes you have LED's you can crack in between draws, but that is a huge risk if you've drawn half of what you need off of your first 7.

Then there is the case where you want to make Griselbrand and Emrakul pre-combat and kill them that way (such as if they have Leyline of Sanctity). The chances of you drawing into what you need to make Emrakul are drastically reduced by 2 cards maindeck (Goryo's Vengeance), which is a fair amount considering you're only drawing 14 cards maximum.

You do run more ways to bin Griselbrand/Emrakul than the UB version, but you've done that at the cost of disruption in the deck as well. You're running less discard spells, which serve the same purpose, and do the same job without forcing you to discard your entire hand. This allows for more resiliency in the long game. I'm also not sure how you can make an argument that a card that, while it makes mana, forces you to dump your entire hand to the graveyard doesn't make the deck more of a glass cannon. You have more potential to go all in - that's exactly one of the strengths of the deck as is.

LDV is strong because it is an instant and easier on your colors. It does still work mid-combo as well if you really need it to because you still have brainstorms, ponders, and probes in your hand. Although that usually isn't relevant.

Overall, by adding LED and Burning Wish, you've diminished 2 of the major strengths of the deck. You don't need to commit your entire hand or dump 7 card draws to LED making mana. And you need a very minimal amount of mana to actually combo off as a single dark ritual pays for all of your combo pieces. You've turned a cheap 2 card combo into a more expensive 2 card combo and added LED's to compensate for that. I can't see how that is worth the trade for the very small fizzle rate of the current build.

Do we need more detail in the opening post about what we've tested, tried, cut, and why?

I question the amount of times the deck actually goes infinite. It seems a lot of this is predicated on being infinite but after getting griselbrand in play, if you have played a land during the turn, you have very few mana sources in which to go off. It puts a lot of burden on Lotus Petal and having multiple dark rituals which would be the same problem with the Burning Wish version just without problem of color requirements.

Children of Korlis is worse in my version but I think it's purposeful because Burning Wish finds you a lot of the cards you would have wanted to be drawing anyway. Children of Korlis engine is really powerful so that is a reasonable argument against the Burning Wish version. However, in both versions, if you get to recur Children even a single time the game is most likely over anyway and while I sometimes have to jump through a hoop of a color requirement to make it happen, I think that normal TinFins does too. Tundra is pretty poor in the deck and casting it through a Lotus Petal has the same amount of upkeep as it does in the Burning Wish version. TinFins is way more streamlined in terms of trying to do the same thing over and over though, which I understand is an upside to the deck.

My version also doesn't kill through Emrakul very often either so their is an argument I should cut it and run a reanimate or something of that sort. I have killed through Emrakul a non-zero amount however.

While LED does force me to discard my hand, it's not often used on turn 1-2. It's like playing any all in combo, you go for it when you can afford to or have no other choice. LED doesn't make ANT more of an all in deck than TinFins. Cracking LED to discard Griselbrand is not that much worse than 2-for-1ing yourself with discard because if it wins you the game you don't really care all that much. LED, in my mind, is more important when going off post-Griselbrand in which I felt the deck didn't make enough mana. I do agree that I have less discard but I think in the current metagame that has opted to have less permission that it is still fine.

I think testing LED and Burning Wish separately isn't the same as playing them together. As before, I'm a testing group of one, which doesn't really help in quantity of results. Not saying anybody needs to help out but I have done decently well with it on MTGO when I was working on it. TinFins has put up great results in the past but is not really in favor as a combo deck at the moment. I think that trying different combinations and configurations can't hurt even if it turns out they are worse. I think my version of the deck has solved some issues and the new ones it's creates are ones I believe could not matter. If it seems that I'm trying to make the assertion that my version is better, that's not the intent, rather just trying to see if others would be willing to participate in trying to see if this different direction could bring the deck back as a combo deck of choice.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't want it to be a combo deck of choice. I like my "from left field" advantage. It feels like playing Belcher, only better. That said, I think making day 2 with this deck at a 4000 person Grand Prix shows it is at least in contention for that title already.

[Acclimation]

I should point out, or reiterate if this if it has already been mentioned, but to everyone looking at the deck and seeing the transformation, remember that it's not a sustainable strategy in the long term, especially if you are playing in non open/ gp tournaments or MTGO. Once people catch on, the DDFT transform can lose a lot of its power.

If you want to play the deck for a period of time longer than 2 or 3 tournaments, learn how to play with the reactive sideboard. Once you have a grasp on that, it makes the transformations that much better, since you'll have a better feel for the deck.

Side note, if we had to write about the things we've tried in the past, we could probably have enough to write a book explaining it all.

[.dk]

I question the amount of times the deck actually goes infinite. It seems a lot of this is predicated on being infinite but after getting griselbrand in play, if you have played a land during the turn, you have very few mana sources in which to go off. It puts a lot of burden on Lotus Petal and having multiple dark rituals which would be the same problem with the Burning Wish version just without problem of color requirements.

Children of Korlis is worse in my version but I think it's purposeful because Burning Wish finds you a lot of the cards you would have wanted to be drawing anyway. Children of Korlis engine is really powerful so that is a reasonable argument against the Burning Wish version. However, in both versions, if you get to recur Children even a single time the game is most likely over anyway and while I sometimes have to jump through a hoop of a color requirement to make it happen, I think that normal TinFins does too. Tundra is pretty poor in the deck and casting it through a Lotus Petal has the same amount of upkeep as it does in the Burning Wish version. TinFins is way more streamlined in terms of trying to do the same thing over and over though, which I understand is an upside to the deck.

My version also doesn't kill through Emrakul very often either so their is an argument I should cut it and run a reanimate or something of that sort. I have killed through Emrakul a non-zero amount however.

While LED does force me to discard my hand, it's not often used on turn 1-2. It's like playing any all in combo, you go for it when you can afford to or have no other choice. LED doesn't make ANT more of an all in deck than TinFins. Cracking LED to discard Griselbrand is not that much worse than 2-for-1ing yourself with discard because if it wins you the game you don't really care all that much. LED, in my mind, is more important when going off post-Griselbrand in which I felt the deck didn't make enough mana. I do agree that I have less discard but I think in the current metagame that has opted to have less permission that it is still fine.

I think testing LED and Burning Wish separately isn't the same as playing them together. As before, I'm a testing group of one, which doesn't really help in quantity of results. Not saying anybody needs to help out but I have done decently well with it on MTGO when I was working on it. TinFins has put up great results in the past but is not really in favor as a combo deck at the moment. I think that trying different combinations and configurations can't hurt even if it turns out they are worse. I think my version of the deck has solved some issues and the new ones it's creates are ones I believe could not matter. If it seems that I'm trying to make the assertion that my version is better, that's not the intent, rather just trying to see if others would be willing to participate in trying to see if this different direction could bring the deck back as a combo deck of choice.

On Chiildren: as mentioned in a couple previous posts. I agree that Tundra was an awful choice in my list. It should have been Underground Sea or Gemstone Mine. But... I think I cast Children once off of a scrubland through 15 rounds maybe? The IMS situation is different, because you just need a black source, dark ritual, entomb (or Children + discard), and shallow grave (or reanimate) - same as making the initial Griselbrand. Not multiple rituals or anything. As soon as you have Griselbrand in play and make Children, the game is over. Children are usually made usually by Entomb, not by casting them. If you're fizzling because you can't find mana to cast Children, that may be your issue. Color requirements are very easy in the current list because of that, and why the one basic land I ran was a swamp. It casts every business spell you have.

ANT is different because they are primarily a Past in Flames deck these days, and furthermore they are set up to play a slow game. The idea behind this deck is to throw haymakers continuously until they run out of countermagic. ANT is very disruptive with lots of scultping and looks for a specific opening. They have the ability to do that because their cards aren't card disadvantage like this decks are (Entomb, Chrome Mox, Self Discard, LDV in the UB version). If they do get disrupted, they can flash back Past in Flames and cast it all again. Very different style of deck. If we go all in with LED, we're dumping not only Griselbrand, but also the Ponders and Brainstorms that would allow us to dig out. If you're playing this deck by waiting for a specific opening and then going for it, then you're playing it very differently than I (and most others) that I know.

Well, I made my points, and you disagree with them. Agree to disagree I guess. I'm not saying don't test it. I'm just trying to point out what I believe you're giving up by doing that based on my testing. If I ever get drunk enough to want to play on MTGO, maybe I'll give a version like that a whirl too, just to see.



I should point out, or reiterate if this if it has already been mentioned, but to everyone looking at the deck and seeing the transformation, remember that it's not a sustainable strategy in the long term, especially if you are playing in non open/ gp tournaments or MTGO. Once people catch on, the DDFT transform can lose a lot of its power.

If you want to play the deck for a period of time longer than 2 or 3 tournaments, learn how to play with the reactive sideboard. Once you have a grasp on that, it makes the transformations that much better, since you'll have a better feel for the deck.


Yeah, that's pretty true. I wouldn't be afraid to take that to large events, but it's too easy to metagame against all of it. That's actually why I stopped running the deck at all locally for the past couple of years - it's just too easy to hate out. Well that, and deathrite shamans were EVERYWHERE locally for a long time and Tin Fins was a casualty of that.

The ideal case for the deck is a good reactive sideboard. The problem I've always had is being able to beat diverse hate while not diluting your deck during sideboarding. That's very difficult. Things that could fix that: 1. some kind of maindeck anti-hate that can serve double duty (like being able to self target with discard). 2. Unban Mystical Tutor.



Side note, if we had to write about the things we've tried in the past, we could probably have enough to write a book explaining it all.
Maybe we should! smennen's Gush book was successful! Look at those trash e-book SCG was peddling! We can do better than that

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So could a monkey with a letterboard.

[Acclimation]

Yeah, that's pretty true. I wouldn't be afraid to take that to large events, but it's too easy to metagame against all of it. That's actually why I stopped running the deck at all locally for the past couple of years - it's just too easy to hate out. Well that, and deathrite shamans were EVERYWHERE locally for a long time and Tin Fins was a casualty of that.

The ideal case for the deck is a good reactive sideboard. The problem I've always had is being able to beat diverse hate while not diluting your deck during sideboarding. That's very difficult. Things that could fix that: 1. some kind of maindeck anti-hate that can serve double duty (like being able to self target with discard). 2. Unban Mystical Tutor.


Maybe we should! smennen's Gush book was successful! Look at those trash e-book SCG was peddling! We can do better than that

Can I get a doctorate in Tinfins?

Also, I've never felt bad about the reactive board, but I also prefer that style of play. I would love to see Mystical Tutor unbanned, or an Entomb-esque card that doesn't cost more than 3 mana.

I was reconsidering adding Grim Tutor to the deck, mostly because I have a NM one that's being under utilized, and also to have more tutor power in the deck.

Pros: Find any card in deck, castable off of Rit
Cons: 3 mana, 3 life, slow.

[.dk]

Can I get a doctorate in Tinfins?

Also, I've never felt bad about the reactive board, but I also prefer that style of play. I would love to see Mystical Tutor unbanned, or an Entomb-esque card that doesn't cost more than 3 mana.

I was reconsidering adding Grim Tutor to the deck, mostly because I have a NM one that's being under utilized, and also to have more tutor power in the deck.

Pros: Find any card in deck, castable off of Rit
Cons: 3 mana, 3 life, slow.

Maybe I just need to practice more with your boarding suggestions. Or maybe it was variance. Who knows - I just always felt like I was diluting too much and not drawing the stuff I wanted. Well that and I was just running into a lot of hateful decks.

Grim Tutor... yeah the one I still have (also NM!) has been rotting doing nothing too... but I don't really see how it's better than LDV. LDV tutors a card to your hand on T3 as well, essentially, and you pay for the cost on T2. Seems better aside from the card disadvantage? Also happens to make an Underground Sea with Chrome Mox!

[alastair]

Doomsday SB.

From DD and the pile alone, I can see a storm counts of 7-8 or maybe 9 with additional mana (unless you are sac-ing islands to chain). Assuming you need to storm to 10, are you doing this via 2-3 spells pre-DD (like DR or Petal)? Or am I missing something with the piles?

Leading on from this, what turn are you typically seeking to resolve DD; and what’s the average mana you have available pre-DD (BBB+1U or more).

Trying to get a feel for how aggressive to be with DD.

edited: chains LED/Petal generating.

[Bobmans]

Doomsday SB.

From DD and the pile alone, I can see a storm counts of 7-8 or maybe 9 with additional mana (unless you are sac-ing islands to chain). Assuming you need to storm to 10, are you doing this via 2-3 spells pre-DD (like DR or Petal)? Or am I missing something with the piles?

Leading on from this, what turn are you typically seeking to resolve DD; and what’s the average mana you have available pre-DD (BBB+1U or more).

Trying to get a feel for how aggressive to be with DD.

edited: chains LED/Petal generating.

Yes, you would either need to be able to cast 5 spells excluding the 5 from the DD pile or be able to Chain a couple of Petals/Tops/Led's. With 4 innitial cards in hand you can also get there by T2 requiring you to have LED, Rit, DD, Probe into IU, CoV, LED, Probe, ToA and have a Island and Swamp available. Offcourse you could do it T1 if you have a Petal instead of a second land.
Also i had a different pile to go of T1 with Land, IU, Brainstorm, 2x DR, DD, Petal making Probe, Led, DR, DR, ToA. So many option, i'm loving it.

Offcourse having access to Burning Wish in most regular DD lists making the piles more aggresive, but i also love about this list that ToA is mainboard and the Shelldock/Emrakul is the alternative route.

[.dk]

As I mentioned in my post, the storm counts are just from casting Doomsday off of lands and then going through the pile and casting those. If you need more storm than that, then you'll need to cast more spells (Petals, Thoughtseize, Dark Ritual, etc.) before Doomsday.

And as to what turn... that is very dependent on both your hand and your matchup. This is a pretty not helpful answer, but really you want to resolve it when you can win the game. Again, I would highly recommend researching DDFT as a deck to get a better feel for how Doomsday works and what you want to be doing.

[lilevo]

So unfortunately I wasn't able to play the deck this past weekend, but I have played the deck a few more times on MODO and I think the original list is very good, I did like the addition of treasure cruise to the board sometimes burning wish can be a dead card in that case you can turn it into ancestral recall, I also agree that the deck is in a good spot right now with decks only playing daze and FoW. What I don't agree is with cutting abrupt decay, I think they are very important if you want to beat miracles.

BTW I am probably going to stream me playing the deck this week at the 11pm (easter time) daily: http://www.twitch.tv/romariovidal

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So I have decided to play side events at GP Denver with the following list, give or take. Take that, Cruise. I often chicken out of playing combo in bigger tournaments, but I've got this terrible itch to play combo, so I think if I prepare, I'll be up for it. I had a bad experience with storm once (ironically it was Doomsday Tendrils)...

MD: 61

1 Children of Korlis
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Careful Study
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Dark Ritual

4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond

1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta

SB: 14

3 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Serenity
3 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction

.dk, Richard, you guys going to be there in January? Anyone else going? I don't play standard, so I'm either paying $40 and dropping after I get my Playmat and Gris(!), or borrowing a deck from a buddy until the Legacy/Modern events start and dropping then.

Acclimation, if I were to want a 61st card, what would you recommend? Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

EDIT: I added the 4th G. Probe in the main and dropped 1 Silence from the board to leave it at 14.
-ABC

[Acclimation]

So I have decided to play side events at GP Denver with the following list, give or take. Take that, Cruise. I often chicken out of playing combo in bigger tournaments, but I've got this terrible itch to play combo, so I think if I prepare, I'll be up for it. I had a bad experience with storm once (ironically it was Doomsday Tendrils)...

MD: 60
1 Children of Korlis
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Careful Study
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Dark Ritual

4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond

1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta

SB: 15
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Serenity
4 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction

.dk, Richard, you guys going to be there in January? Anyone else going? I don't play standard, so I'm either paying $40 and dropping after I get my Playmat and Gris(!), or borrowing a deck from a buddy until the Legacy/Modern events start and dropping then.

Acclimation, if I were to want a 61st card, what would you recommend? Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

-ABC

I would do Probe, since it's essentially free as a 61st card, but that's just me. 61 cards works really well when you have a 14 card sideboard, for those random matches where you can side out a land to be a little bit faster (which, my sideboard is 3 Silence, only difference between yours and mine).

[movadomk5]

.dk, Richard, you guys going to be there in January? Anyone else going? I don't play standard, so I'm either paying $40 and dropping after I get my Playmat and Gris(!), or borrowing a deck from a buddy until the Legacy/Modern events start and dropping then.

Acclimation, if I were to want a 61st card, what would you recommend? Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

-ABC

I will be there judging but theres a good chance I will be running or trying to check out the legacy side events in which Ill look for you

[.dk]

.dk, Richard, you guys going to be there in January? Anyone else going? I don't play standard, so I'm either paying $40 and dropping after I get my Playmat and Gris(!), or borrowing a deck from a buddy until the Legacy/Modern events start and dropping then.

Acclimation, if I were to want a 61st card, what would you recommend? Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

-ABC

I would second the Probe as 61st for the same reason Acclimation said. Was wondering though, how have Careful Studies been with only 2 Griselbrand and 1 Emrakul in the deck?

And yeah, I'll be at GP Denver. Still undecided if I'm playing in the main event... probably, just for shits and giggles. But I'll definitely be rocking some legacy in side events. :)

[Omega87]

This is my actual list on Mtgo:

Lands: 13
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marshflats

Creatures: 4
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis

Spells: 43
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryos Vengeance
4 Lotus Petal
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Tendrils
4 Dark Ritual
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond

Sideboard:
4 Cabal ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Preordain
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames

I side out: 4 Entomb, 4 Shallow Grave, 3 Goryos Vengeance, 4 Creatures

This is quite funny, opponents playing meddling mage naming entomb or pithing needle naming Griselbrand after Boarding. Nice Try :-D

[Richard Cheese]

.dk, Richard, you guys going to be there in January? Anyone else going? I don't play standard, so I'm either paying $40 and dropping after I get my Playmat and Gris(!), or borrowing a deck from a buddy until the Legacy/Modern events start and dropping then.

Acclimation, if I were to want a 61st card, what would you recommend? Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

-ABC

Nope. I'll be up to my tits in liquor and hot springs that whole weekend. Keep an eye out for Russian Treefolks for me!

[.dk]

Oh yeah, I took my same 75 (I forgot to swap out Tundra for USea) to a local last night. Didn't take detailed notes, but here is what I remember:

Round 1 - UR Delver
Lost the die roll, won in 3 games. I remember I mulliganed pretty low in the game I lost, and just couldn't find the pieces I needed while he resolved a Treasure Cruise and out gunned me.

Round 2 - Imperial Bomberman (Wanderlust)
I won the die roll, won in 3 games. While Tin Fins is favored here due to speed, it was still difficult as Wanderlust is a good friend and knows exactly what the deck is doing. So no surprises from transformations or anything. I win Game 1 as he mulligans looking for his maindeck Nihil Spellbomb. I had T1 Probe > Therapy regardless (He mulled to 4, and I ended up ripping 2 Sensei's Divining Tops out of his hand - ouch). G2 I transform into Doomsday, as I know he has graveyard hate and lots of ways to tutor for it (Trinket Mage, Enlightened Tutor, etc). He has Karakas and Canonist in play. I plan on going Doomsday -> Shelldock with Pithing Needle on Karakas. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I think I screwed up what I Chain of Vapored post Doomsday, and ended up getting beat down by Imperial Recuiters and Meddling Mage for the win. That's right... I Chain of Vapored Canonist and discarded it, when I should have discarded the Imperial Recruiter in his hand which ended up fetching Meddling Mage naming Emrakul. Sad. Game 3 I believe he mulliganed into oblivion and I Doomsday->Tendrils.

Round 3 - Death and Taxes
I don't really remember much about this match other than I won in 2 games. Game 2 I know I bounced Thalia with Chain of Vapor end step, and then next turn Doomsday -> Tendrils for exactsies. He had a creature in play, a Sword in hand, and a plains open, but didn't see the line that would have saved him.

Round 4 - Jund
I lost this die roll. He goes T1 Deathrite Shaman. I go T1 Swamp, Entomb->Griselbrand, Lotus Petal, Reanimate, Lotus Petal, Children of Korlis. Kill you. Game 2... he goes T1 Deathrite Shaman. I go T1 Scrubland, Ritual, Ritual, Sensei's Divining Top, LED, Doomsday, Kill you. He's a little salty. Don't blame him...

Anyway... that puts me at 16-3 in my sanctioned matches with this deck in the last couple of weeks... The more I was thinking about it (and talking to Wanderlust), it seems like this deck's only bad matchups are BUG Delver and even faster combo decks (Belcher, Oops). This deck is insane.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Richard: Which hot springs? I work literally 2 blocks away from the hot springs in Glenwood. Also, which treefolk?

Nice record, .dk.

[Bobmans]

Anyway... that puts me at 16-3 in my sanctioned matches with this deck in the last couple of weeks... The more I was thinking about it (and talking to Wanderlust), it seems like this deck's only bad matchups are BUG Delver and even faster combo decks (Belcher, Oops). This deck is insane.

Nice one.
Yesterday played a couple of games versus Reanimator, pox, burn, affinity and elves. Reanimator was the only matchup that was really hard. The guy fow'd my discard and dropped land, petal, entomb, reanimate on Griselbrand... twice...
I guess against reanimate one can only try to be faster on the TinFins plan.

[Richard Cheese]

Anyway... that puts me at 16-3 in my sanctioned matches with this deck in the last couple of weeks... The more I was thinking about it (and talking to Wanderlust), it seems like this deck's only bad matchups are BUG Delver and even faster combo decks (Belcher, Oops). This deck is insane.

I always have trouble with Deathblade between maindeck DRS and Karakas, and postboard they seem to have the largest variety of hate.



Richard: Which hot springs? I work literally 2 blocks away from the hot springs in Glenwood. Also, which treefolk?


It's a little ranch about 30min from Glenwood: http://avalancheranch.com/

The pools are excellent, and any beverage is allowed as long as it's not in a glass container. I think they have day passes too, although they might have stopped since the cabins have been getting more popular every year.

For Treefolk, the biggest thing on my list is 3x Treefolk Harbinger. After that I'd say Bosk Banneret x4, then any number of Dauntless Dourbark, Cloudcrown Oak, Sapling of Colfenor, Heartwood Storyteller, Reach of Branches. I really like foreign copies of cards that are obscure to begin with.

[.dk]

I always have trouble with Deathblade between maindeck DRS and Karakas, and postboard they seem to have the largest variety of hate.


Doomsday is pretty excellent against Deathblade, provided that you can land a Sensei's Divining Top. They don't have a lot of pressure, and don't run a lot of counters. So you just end up searching for Doomsday with Top and win from there. You can beat Meddling Mage and Karakas with Chain of Vapor and Pithing Needle so that you can Shelldock/Emrakul their face.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I like Careful Study. I played with it in Standard. It trades slots with Preordain in our deck quite nicely. Also, for some reason I often draw a Griselbrand, even though I only run 2. It's weird, but it works often when I draw the Careful Study.

I could use some pointers on Sideboarding for the big decks of the format:

Miracles
UR/URw Delver
Elves
Death and Taxes

If anyone has any solid testing (Acclimation, .dk, Richard, anyone) against any of these matchups, I would ask for your input. Thanks.

-ABC

[Richard Cheese]

Doomsday is pretty excellent against Deathblade, provided that you can land a Sensei's Divining Top. They don't have a lot of pressure, and don't run a lot of counters. So you just end up searching for Doomsday with Top and win from there. You can beat Meddling Mage and Karakas with Chain of Vapor and Pithing Needle so that you can Shelldock/Emrakul their face.

They do have a lot more pressure than Miracles though with Stoneforge/Clique, plus discard and sometimes Wasteland. Still one of my least favorite decks to play against, but thankfully doesn't seem to be super popular.

[Darkgobs]

Hey guys, i was wondering what your sideboarding plan against Miracle is. Obviously they play a lot of countermagic and some good hate aka RiP, Terminus and Karakas. So, against:

- counterspells: + 3 (4) Silence (also helps to avoid Terminus or StP)
- Karakas / Top: + 2 Needle (also helps to avoid Terminus)
- RiP / Top / Cage: + 2 Serenity
- Containment Priest / RiP / Cage: + 3 Chain of Vapor

Of course, the discard we're running maindeck will help a lot to deal with their hate. (we could even go for +2 Surgical Extraction since it could help us to shuffle their library to avoid Terminus, but we are allready trying to side-in too much cards).

But we cannot side-in 10 cards without destabilizing the deck. It's reasonable to side-in 6-7 card maximum, since they can take the slots from Lim-Dul and Probe or even Reanimate.
I personnaly would go for the Serenity and Silence, which brings me allready to 6 cards. CoV seems really important too, especially if Containment Priest starts beeing played in the field. Which brings us to 9 cards! Damn.
So how do you guys do it?

[Bobmans]

So, against:

- counterspells: + 3 (4) Silence (also helps to avoid Terminus or StP)
- Karakas / Top: + 2 Needle (also helps to avoid Terminus)
- RiP / Top / Cage: + 2 Serenity
- Containment Priest / RiP / Cage: + 3 Chain of Vapor

So how do you guys do it?

Doomsday!! ;-p

- counterspells: Discard/bait with either Doomsday or TinFins, depending on the rest of the MU.
- Karakas / Top: Doomsay into lethal Tendrill's (or a DD pile containing Needle + SI+Emrakul)
- RiP / Top / Cage: Doomsday into lethal Tendrill's
- Containment Priest / RiP / Cage: Doomsday into lethal Tendrill's

On a serious note. Deluting the deck has always been a problem with sideboarding a reactive plan into TinFins. But you should only grab the most important cards and try to avoid stuffing 10 cards. Try and keep it to 4 at max and keep relying on the main gameplan. Agressive mulligan's into fast hands that "dodge" specific hate, or (if that fails) keep on going sculpting a hand that can play around the hate in say one or two turns. Sometimes you just have to accept that your fighting a battle you can't win even though your playing as good as you can.

[.dk]

Doomsday!! ;-p

- counterspells: Discard/bait with either Doomsday or TinFins, depending on the rest of the MU.
- Karakas / Top: Doomsay into lethal Tendrill's (or a DD pile containing Needle + SI+Emrakul)
- RiP / Top / Cage: Doomsday into lethal Tendrill's
- Containment Priest / RiP / Cage: Doomsday into lethal Tendrill's

On a serious note. Deluting the deck has always been a problem with sideboarding a reactive plan into TinFins. But you should only grab the most important cards and try to avoid stuffing 10 cards. Try and keep it to 4 at max and keep relying on the main gameplan. Agressive mulligan's into fast hands that "dodge" specific hate, or (if that fails) keep on going sculpting a hand that can play around the hate in say one or two turns. Sometimes you just have to accept that your fighting a battle you can't win even though your playing as good as you can.

Yeah... hence why I went with that transformation. Emrakul is pretty excellent against Miracles, so I would usually go for the Shelldock Plan, and either figure out some way to resolve Needle on Karakas, or hope they don't draw it if they have CountTop online.

[Richard Cheese]

Hey guys, i was wondering what your sideboarding plan against Miracle is. Obviously they play a lot of countermagic and some good hate aka RiP, Terminus and Karakas. So, against:

- counterspells: + 3 (4) Silence (also helps to avoid Terminus or StP)
- Karakas / Top: + 2 Needle (also helps to avoid Terminus)
- RiP / Top / Cage: + 2 Serenity
- Containment Priest / RiP / Cage: + 3 Chain of Vapor

Of course, the discard we're running maindeck will help a lot to deal with their hate. (we could even go for +2 Surgical Extraction since it could help us to shuffle their library to avoid Terminus, but we are allready trying to side-in too much cards).

But we cannot side-in 10 cards without destabilizing the deck. It's reasonable to side-in 6-7 card maximum, since they can take the slots from Lim-Dul and Probe or even Reanimate.
I personnaly would go for the Serenity and Silence, which brings me allready to 6 cards. CoV seems really important too, especially if Containment Priest starts beeing played in the field. Which brings us to 9 cards! Damn.
So how do you guys do it?

You've basically re-discovered the situation where a transformational sideboard excels. Still, your plan above is definitely overkill. Using the reactive board is always about trying to find the sweet spot between protection and compromising the primary game plan. Looking at Lossett's and Schonegger's lists from SCG and the GP, it looks like Rest in Peace is losing favor, and their hate now consists of:

Counters (Force, Pierce, Counterspell, Flusterstorm in the board)
Relic (Lossett, main)
Needle (Lossett, board)
Containment Priest
Karakas (Lossett only)
Counterbalance

Given the above, I would probably just go with 2-3 Silence and 2 Chain. Needle isn't worth bringing in just for Karakas, as you can still push through Griselbrand activation(s) and possibly set yourself up for an Emrakul swing, a second Griselbrand or Tendrils. Not sure what you mean by it helping with Terminus. They're likely boarding that out anyway. I wouldn't bother with Serenity either, it's mostly there to beat Chalice decks and is overcosted and slow when used as a 1-for-1. You really want to go off quickly against this deck since they can easily shut us down with Counterbalance by leaving a 1 and 2 on top.

There was some discussion a while ago about using Teferi's Realm as a kind of cure-all against Miracles, but it's expensive, requires double blue, and highly prone to getting countered. Abeyance may also be worth looking at, as it cantrips and turns off Top/Relic/Karakas, but costing 2 really hurts it.

I honestly don't expect the 2x Relic main to be a popular inclusion, but I could be wrong.

[Koby]

Miracles is indeed difficult.

I recommend:

3 Chain of Vapor
0 Silence (it does not stop their Counterbalance engine, which is the hardest of locks)
2 Serenity (cleans up RIP, CB, Top, Cage, Relic, etc)
Optional: 2 Surgical Extraction

Taking out:
1 Chrome Mox (games may go very long and not needed)
1 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
2 Gitaxian Probe
Optional: 2 Gitaxian Probe

Swapping Surgical for Probe is basically the same effect (peek) but Surgical can strip out all their FoW's or interrupt SDT tricks. It does become dead with RIP in play, so that should come as a warning.

[Richard Cheese]

Miracles is indeed difficult.

I recommend:

3 Chain of Vapor
0 Silence (it does not stop their Counterbalance engine, which is the hardest of locks)
2 Serenity (cleans up RIP, CB, Top, Cage, Relic, etc)
Optional: 2 Surgical Extraction

Taking out:
1 Chrome Mox (games may go very long and not needed)
1 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
2 Gitaxian Probe
Optional: 2 Gitaxian Probe

Swapping Surgical for Probe is basically the same effect (peek) but Surgical can strip out all their FoW's or interrupt SDT tricks. It does become dead with RIP in play, so that should come as a warning.

I haven't really liked Serenity in that matchup. If they have Counterbalance in play, anyone that knows our deck is going to float a 1 and a 2 on top. I've actually been thinking of running EE in that spot since nobody around here plays MUD or Stax. EE can come down at cmc 3 or 4 where they're weakest, but still deal with a variety of hate, and also potentially be better than 1-for-1. I may also try Abeyance again. Really what I need to do is get some people over and have some real testing sessions, as it's really hard to take any meaningful conclusions from the weekly 4-round crapshoot. Maybe Serenity really is just the tits and I've just never found myself in a situation to take advantage of it.

[ThomasDowd]

Do you guys like the first reanimate? i find the life loss prohibitive for anything but children

Thinking about cutting this and adding another IMS (6th IMS) or 2nd LDV.

I am also on 7 discard spells main


also LDV: is this mainly good in longer games or post DD transform? costing two and taking time and cards feels rough. I am not denying its power, and it is probably the best option in this slot

[Bobmans]

Do you guys like the first reanimate? i find the life loss prohibitive for anything but children

Thinking about cutting this and adding another IMS (6th IMS) or 2nd LDV.

I am also on 7 discard spells main


also LDV: is this mainly good in longer games or post DD transform? costing two and taking time and cards feels rough. I am not denying its power, and it is probably the best option in this slot

It does happen that either your hand gets ripped or countered and you need te setup a new hand or you just need 1 or 2 pieces to get going (again). LDV really helps setting this up. Also remember that with a Brainstorm you can get as much a 3 cards from your LDV 5 when you have 2 cards to put back. Or with 1 or 2 probes you could setup a combo in the same turn, if you have the mana for it. At the moment i think it is the best tutor card that can be used in this deck. It can indeed feel kinda rough and it is not an easy card to use, meaning you gotta think every 5 through before deciding to get another 5. I suppose the perfect 5 is always a corner case and you have to just make the best of it regardless.

Reanimate is a shallow grave #5 that can get you to do different stuff to. It indeed recurs Children, or you can just get a Griselbrand with it t1/2 (like normal Reanimator) and race your opponent. Or it can take a creature from your opponents yard like a goyf or a TNN. One time i used it to take a Goblin Sharpshooter after i had my opponent discard it and cleared his board with it.
But i guess it's a flexspot, however i like having 8 reanimate spells around.

@ .dk: How do you feel about Chrome Mox? I know it is often important as Petal #5 and saves me from bricking after i draw 14/21 with griselbrand, but in the DDFT conversion it is often a clunky card. Do you think we have a better alternative? On a side note, in one game i casted it to up my storm count and imprinted an Emrakul on it. The look on my opponents face. Hilarious, he thought i was pulling some kind of weird tech, haha.

The DDFT conversion is really fast and solid and i was thinking to brew a list where the TinFins is cut and building a green splashed sideboard around the DDFT conversion with some Abrupt Decay's, Xantid Swarm's, Massacre's, etc. Cutting the Mox for another LED, etc. Have you considered this while playing the list? (i guess it wouldnt be TinFins anymore which is a pity)

[Koby]

Do you guys like the first reanimate? i find the life loss prohibitive for anything but children

Thinking about cutting this and adding another IMS (6th IMS) or 2nd LDV.

I am also on 7 discard spells main


also LDV: is this mainly good in longer games or post DD transform? costing two and taking time and cards feels rough. I am not denying its power, and it is probably the best option in this slot

Reanimate has won me several games against Tempo (Delver) lists like traditional Reanimator. Its one of the better openings against them.

EDIT: I do now recall a few games where I made an EsperBlade opponent discard his TNN, then reanimated it for beatdown for a few turns before he had to Wrath the board away. Expending resources and cards on his half.

To even further pile-on for Reanimate, once the M14 rules changed the Legends rule, I was able to combo off turn 1 as such: Swamp - Ritual - Entomb - Reanimate Griselbrand - Draw 7 cards (going to ~3) - Dark Ritual - Entomb - Shallow Grave Griselbrand - Attack - Draw 7 more - Lotus Petal - Children of Korlis - spin the deck and laugh like an idiot for a good 10 minutes.

As for LDV, I think it's this format's equivalent to Vampiric Tutor. I've often used it EOT turn 2 to find the piece I need then go off turn 3. It's really efficient at what it does for this deck, but overall, it's a bit slow. Like Bobmans said, there's no alternative to it and it's the best spell after Entombs 1-4.

[.dk]

@ThomasDowd:
I like the singleton reanimate, even beyond what Koby stated. Sometimes you nab something killer out of an opponent's graveyard (young pyromancer isn't too shabby these days), but I also like it mid-combo as well. Having another spell to draw that can reanimate Children is really good, in my opinion. Sometimes you burn a Shallow Grave to start your combo, and you would need to draw another to reanimate children. Having one more way I think is pretty key. At least, in my anecdotal experiences seems to have helped with fizzling.

I have a hard time seeing running Tin Fins without at least 1 LDV, and 2 preferably. For all of the reasons stated above in your post and Koby's.

@Bobmans
Chrome Mox, while not ideal, does fuel some fast Doomsday starts. Think of the sideboard as more of a turbo-Doomsday list, rather than traditional DDFT. Like Tin Fins, you want to go off early, so your extra IMS can help with all of that. Example: Chrome Mox, Land, Ritual, Doomsday, SDT/Probe, black spell wins the game on T1. There isn't really another alternative aside from Mox Diamond that I can think of anyway.

I don't think in this version of Doomsday you really need the 4th LED. It is more useful in DDFT as you're running Burning Wish, and is needed to cast spells off of Wish sometimes. Chrome Mox may even be more useful as it can actually cast cards from hand.

I also wouldn't recommend a straight UBg DDFT list either - it's not flexible enough like DDFT. Burning Wish opens up so many more board options as well as Doomsday piles that the deck is rather crippled without it. Yes, you can cast Doomsday faster like we do here in this transformation, but that isn't always good enough. My opinion though.

Imprinting Emrakul is pretty hilarious - not doing anything else with the card, right? You can just cast Chrome Mox without imprinting anything for storm too, btw. ;)

[ThomasDowd]

@ThomasDowd:
I like the singleton reanimate, even beyond what Koby stated. Sometimes you nab something killer out of an opponent's graveyard (young pyromancer isn't too shabby these days), but I also like it mid-combo as well. Having another spell to draw that can reanimate Children is really good, in my opinion. Sometimes you burn a Shallow Grave to start your combo, and you would need to draw another to reanimate children. Having one more way I think is pretty key. At least, in my anecdotal experiences seems to have helped with fizzling.

I have a hard time seeing running Tin Fins without at least 1 LDV, and 2 preferably. For all of the reasons stated above in your post and Koby's.

@Bobmans
Chrome Mox, while not ideal, does fuel some fast Doomsday starts. Think of the sideboard as more of a turbo-Doomsday list, rather than traditional DDFT. Like Tin Fins, you want to go off early, so your extra IMS can help with all of that. Example: Chrome Mox, Land, Ritual, Doomsday, SDT/Probe, black spell wins the game on T1. There isn't really another alternative aside from Mox Diamond that I can think of anyway.

I don't think in this version of Doomsday you really need the 4th LED. It is more useful in DDFT as you're running Burning Wish, and is needed to cast spells off of Wish sometimes. Chrome Mox may even be more useful as it can actually cast cards from hand.

I also wouldn't recommend a straight UBg DDFT list either - it's not flexible enough like DDFT. Burning Wish opens up so many more board options as well as Doomsday piles that the deck is rather crippled without it. Yes, you can cast Doomsday faster like we do here in this transformation, but that isn't always good enough. My opinion though.

Imprinting Emrakul is pretty hilarious - not doing anything else with the card, right? You can just cast Chrome Mox without imprinting anything for storm too, btw. ;)


Thanks All for the input on reanimate! I was just goldfishing some hands the other night and never wanted to reanimate a griselbrand due to the difficulty in protecting it once reanimated without force. raw grizzle reanimate leaves only one activation, so that is what was probably getting me down as opposed to being used to the intial 2 activations to win on the spot.


LDV is indeed bonkers and very powerful, I just don't think I can go down to 6 discard for the 2nd one or cut the reanimate. I'll mess around with it. starting with .dk.s' and + 1 TS -1 LDV. which may or may not be correct as an enabler and protection I think playing 6 is a little loose.

[Koby]

There is always the option of 61 cards with 2 LDV.

[ThomasDowd]

There is always the option of 61 cards with 2 LDV.

WHOA WHOA WHOA NOW.

Entertained that. Not sure on if I want to play 61.

[Acclimation]

61 cards is sweet, I've been doing that for a year now.

[Bobmans]

Example: Chrome Mox, Land, Ritual, Doomsday, SDT/Probe, black spell wins the game on T1.

One of them or both SDT/Probe? and getting a Tendrills for 20? I can see it when you have both of them stacking LED, IU, LED, LED, ToA. But i don't see one with only SDT or Probe, that doesn't involve Shelldock/Emrakul. (Probe would be better) going for Peedle, SI, EMMY, Rit, ToA/DD or not dropping land and go for SI, EMMY, Rit, ToA, DD using the probe to drop SI the same turn (while knowing you don't have to worry about Wasteland). or am i missing something?



@Bobmans
Chrome Mox, while not ideal, does fuel some fast Doomsday starts. Think of the sideboard as more of a turbo-Doomsday list, rather than traditional DDFT. Like Tin Fins, you want to go off early, so your extra IMS can help with all of that. Example: Chrome Mox, Land, Ritual, Doomsday, SDT/Probe, black spell wins the game on T1. There isn't really another alternative aside from Mox Diamond that I can think of anyway.

Indeed i had some hands where Chrome Mox made it possible to go for the kill T1. Sometimes you lack a card to pitch to Chrome Mox. Mox Diamond basicly put's you in the same spot. Tho i am not sure if i'd want to test Mox Diamond in favor of Chrome Mox. In regular TinFins i used to play a 1/1 split, but sometimes holding one while you wished you had the other...



I don't think in this version of Doomsday you really need the 4th LED. It is more useful in DDFT as you're running Burning Wish, and is needed to cast spells off of Wish sometimes. Chrome Mox may even be more useful as it can actually cast cards from hand.

Agreed.



I also wouldn't recommend a straight UBg DDFT list either - it's not flexible enough like DDFT. Burning Wish opens up so many more board options as well as Doomsday piles that the deck is rather crippled without it. Yes, you can cast Doomsday faster like we do here in this transformation, but that isn't always good enough. My opinion though.

Can't the same be said about ANT vs TES? Not wanting to compare DDFT with regular Tendrills storm, but this has the same potantial as ANT has. In games i played with the DDFT conversion i was thinking, i wish i had Abrupt Decay or Xantid Swarm or a Massacre or extra discard. to board in to support the already solid gameplan. I also have the UBRg(w) list and feel that this (UB) list plays more "natural", but lacking a little bit of support out of the sideboard. Plus that Burning Wish can be a bit clunky. Maybe it's a lack of experience playing (this)DDFT list and thinking about re-inventing the wheel, but i am not missing BW at all.



Imprinting Emrakul is pretty hilarious - not doing anything else with the card, right? You can just cast Chrome Mox without imprinting anything for storm too, btw. ;)

Apart from not doing anything, it is such a illogical move that my opponent thought it was part of some combo he never saw before or that there was some kind of weird shit going to happen. People get errors in their brains when one does something that is not expected and illogical.
I once did something similar (imprinting Griselbrand) and then Pull from Eternity into Shallow Grave ftw.

[alastair]

So, Doomsday SB. 3-1 at the weekly with some luck on my side. I have always felt that TinFins is too soft to hate in G2-3, and favour transformation (Painter, Storm, Men).

Rnd 1 Win, Delver/Patriot.
G1 Tentative reanimate after disruption.
G2 Into Doomsday; a literal wall of counters hits everything I don’t want it to, Delver gets there.
G3 With the graveyard hate I saw in G2, I stick with Doomsday. Steady cantrip sequence, but I screwed the pile up with IU, LED, LED, Probe, Tendrills…… but with mana spare to recast top and get to Tendrills.

Rnd 2 Loss, Jund.
G1 Opening 7 with entomb/reanimate but light on mana. Entomb in response to Wastelands, and I was 5 turns to draw a land. I made GB eventuually, drew ½ the deck but saw no Petal or Mox to get there.
G2 Into Doomsday, a fair keep that gets shredded. A timely REB kept me off Probe, go for a Doomsday blind. On four life I paid two for Probe to draw Tendrils for storm 10, and promptly die to his bolt.

Rnd 3 Win, UR Painter.
G1 T1 he makes Painter, T2 he makes grindstone + shoots….. move to deck-pick-up…. I have Emrakul. We enter the Painter beatdown phase as I draw poorly and his REB’s slow me. At ~6 life I bait counters with therapy and double reanimate, into DR's and hardcast GB.
G2 On Doomsday he SnT’s and I get annihilated on Turn 3.
G3 An excellent game, sculpt my hand and resolve Doomsday for Tendrills.

RnD 4 Win, Elves
G1 Turn one without effort
G2 Turn two/three again without effort.

So, three actual games with Doomsday and I have an awful lot to learn. I didn't play against specific Doomsday hate other than random factors keeping me off Sheldock. I do like this strategy.... 6 months to Lille for practice.

[Bobmans]

So, Doomsday SB. 3-1 at the weekly with some luck on my side.

Rnd 1 Win, Delver/Patriot.
G3 Steady cantrip sequence, but I screwed the pile up with IU, LED, LED, Probe, Tendrills…… but with mana spare to recast top and get to Tendrills.

Rnd 2 Loss, Jund.
G1 Opening 7 with entomb/reanimate but light on mana. Entomb in response to Wastelands, and I was 5 turns to draw a land. I made GB eventuually, drew ½ the deck but saw no Petal or Mox to get there.

RnD 4 Win, Elves
G2 Turn two/three again without effort.


Congrats on putting up some results.
Not all that lucky, could have gone better during that Jund matchup game 1. Though Luck.

Did you play game 2 versus Elves as DDFT or TinFins?

Also i don't follow what went wrong during game 3 of Round 1, could you elaborate?
If you have a LED or 1UU mana open, a TOP in play and just made that pile using DD you have a pile that makes 7 storm (including ToA) on it's own. Seems fine to me?

[alastair]

Elves, I SB’d into Doomsday in G2 (just remembered). I feel that Elves players sometimes overboard, destroying their own game plan and giving you far too much time.

Jund, single Sea in hand and I was acutely aware of the Wasteland risk. I went with Entomb over BS in response. BS was a better play (but I didn’t know what deck he was on, and that left him only having Force to stop Entomb).

IU, LED, LED, GP, ToA.
Flipped top to draw IU.
IU draws Top, LED, and LED.
Forced me to make Top again, flip to draw GP, re-draw & make Top to get ToA. It worked, but I had not allowed the mana or life in my calculation. I had counted on drawing GP into ToA (but missed top). Lesson learnt, but also learn in how to generate additional storm.

I found GP hands down the best card in Doomsday. It made piles easier to resolve and when I was unsure of a fifth card…. add GP.

The core TinFins list is still as powerful as ever. It suffers inconsistent draws with the Entomb Bottlneck. But some days you win the dice rolls.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Do we need more detail in the opening post about what we've tested, tried, cut, and why?

Not to argue in favour of the red splash, but I have yet to see any discussion with regard to a list that eschews blue for ONLY Burning Wish and Faithless Looting (which can be a strong addition). This adds the toolbox nature of Burning Wish (including a Stronghold Gambit in the board) and maintains some cantrip / discard ability without the recklessness of LED. If I missed such a discussion in the 90+ pages, I apologize. But a strong local player runs such a list with positive results. I will try to get his full 75. Additional apologies for resurrecting this unpopular topic, I'm finally catching up on the last few days.

[Bobmans]

Not to argue in favour of the red splash, but I have yet to see any discussion with regard to a list that eschews blue for ONLY Burning Wish and Faithless Looting (which can be a strong addition). This adds the toolbox nature of Burning Wish (including a Stronghold Gambit in the board) and maintains some cantrip / discard ability without the recklessness of LED. If I missed such a discussion in the 90+ pages, I apologize. But a strong local player runs such a list with positive results. I will try to get his full 75. Additional apologies for resurrecting this unpopular topic, I'm finally catching up on the last few days.
Check post 93 in this thread.

[.dk]

@TheCallMeTim I think that's a different deck - Burning Reanimator. I'm not sure if there is a thread around for it, but it's a bit different than Tin Fins, IMO.

@alastair I'm even more confused now. That's exactly how that pile is supposed to work to generate 8 storm... you have enough mana from LED's to pay mana for Probe. I don't get it.



One of them or both SDT/Probe? and getting a Tendrills for 20? I can see it when you have both of them stacking LED, IU, LED, LED, ToA. But i don't see one with only SDT or Probe, that doesn't involve Shelldock/Emrakul. (Probe would be better) going for Peedle, SI, EMMY, Rit, ToA/DD or not dropping land and go for SI, EMMY, Rit, ToA, DD using the probe to drop SI the same turn (while knowing you don't have to worry about Wasteland). or am i missing something?


You're right, you need both. I mistyped.



Can't the same be said about ANT vs TES? Not wanting to compare DDFT with regular Tendrills storm, but this has the same potantial as ANT has. In games i played with the DDFT conversion i was thinking, i wish i had Abrupt Decay or Xantid Swarm or a Massacre or extra discard. to board in to support the already solid gameplan. I also have the UBRg(w) list and feel that this (UB) list plays more "natural", but lacking a little bit of support out of the sideboard. Plus that Burning Wish can be a bit clunky. Maybe it's a lack of experience playing (this)DDFT list and thinking about re-inventing the wheel, but i am not missing BW at all.


This discussion really belongs in another thread (Fetchland Tendrils), but I'll try to answer succinctly here. UB Doomsday enables more T1 Doomsdays. Burning Wish enables more T2 Doomsdays (Wish + LED, or Wish acting as a Lotus Petal in your pile) as well as more late game resiliency and options. Wish enables like 400% more piles... If I'm playing DDFT, I want more options, and T1 vs. T2 isn't that different. I'm fine with the trade.



Apart from not doing anything, it is such a illogical move that my opponent thought it was part of some combo he never saw before or that there was some kind of weird shit going to happen. People get errors in their brains when one does something that is not expected and illogical.
I once did something similar (imprinting Griselbrand) and then Pull from Eternity into Shallow Grave ftw.

Yes! That was one of the plays I was thinking of when I was first thinking about Pull from Eternity a couple years ago!

[TheyCallMeTim]

@TheCallMeTim I think that's a different deck- Burning Reanimator. I'm not sure if there is a thread around for it, but it's a bit different than Tin Fins, IMO.

Lol, I posted it in their thread about a year ago when they told me to bring it here. I never really seriously piloted it but my buddy swears by it.

It looks something like this:

3 Badlands
4 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Reanimate
4 Entomb
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Burning Wish

//Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Buried Alive
2 Through the Breach
2 Pyroclasm
1 Reanimate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Coffin Purge
1 Flex


Again, I'm not advocating anyone jump on board and try this, just thought I'd mention it. The wish board is nice but it might also lend itself to an ANT transformation.

EDIT: Or Doomsday Transformation, for that matter.

[Mhenlo]

Not to argue in favour of the red splash, but I have yet to see any discussion with regard to a list that eschews blue for ONLY Burning Wish and Faithless Looting (which can be a strong addition). This adds the toolbox nature of Burning Wish (including a Stronghold Gambit in the board) and maintains some cantrip / discard ability without the recklessness of LED. If I missed such a discussion in the 90+ pages, I apologize. But a strong local player runs such a list with positive results. I will try to get his full 75. Additional apologies for resurrecting this unpopular topic, I'm finally catching up on the last few days.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28206-Burning-Reanimator

[TheyCallMeTim]

Lol, I posted it in their thread about a year ago when they told me to bring it here. I never really seriously piloted it but my buddy swears by it.

It looks something like this...

[lilevo]

So I couldn't play the deck at the open but I played it in 2 daily events last week the first one I streamed and you can watch the replay on my channel the second time I wasn't streaming and this was the result/list.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/253782#online

I plan on stream with the deck for at least the next week.

[Higgs]

Link to stream?

[.dk]

He posted it earlier in the thread here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst&p=851332&viewfull=1#post851332)

[Pomegrant]

So I couldn't play the deck at the open but I played it in 2 daily events last week the first one I streamed and you can watch the replay on my channel the second time I wasn't streaming and this was the result/list.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/253782#online

I plan on stream with the deck for at least the next week.

I think you missed my post but I have updated the sideboard for the deck:

3 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warens
1 Meltdown
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Exhume
1 Buried Alive
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Void Snare
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Show and Tell

I think having green mana in the deck makes the deck too unstable. You still have very good wish targets this way so I don't think you lose very much by not having abrupt decay.

[Acclimation]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76812

Hey, look, 9th place at SCGATL.

Some interesting choices.

[lilevo]

@Pomegrant: I saw your post but I kinda like the original SB with abrupt decay sometimes you get locked under the counterbalance.

@Acclimation: I think that list should have tendrils in the main.

[Richard Cheese]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76812

Hey, look, 9th place at SCGATL.

Some interesting choices.

17 card sideboard?

[.dk]

Guessing the Island and Swamp in the sideboard are errors

[warfordium]

so 3 Griselbrand, 2 Children of Korlis, 1 Show and Tell, 0 Tendrils.

Would love to know how often he children-looped the deck to hardcast Emrakul, and what led him to cut Tendrils...

[wonderPreaux]

17 card sideboard?
Island and Swamp in SB are confirmed errors, he posted a report on another site.


so 3 Griselbrand, 2 Children of Korlis, 1 Show and Tell, 0 Tendrils.

Would love to know how often he children-looped the deck to hardcast Emrakul, and what led him to cut Tendrils...
The list is based off Allen Pennington's list, and he feels Tendrils is redundant when Gris/Emrakul can just kill an opponent usually. The deck does just win with attacking with both or hardcasting Emrakul, though the SnT is a change.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Probably just a maindecked out to graveyard hate. With all the cantripping, you hit it as often as Reanimate.

[Koby]

Island and Swamp in SB are confirmed errors, he posted a report on another site.


The list is based off Allen Pennington's list, and he feels Tendrils is redundant when Gris/Emrakul can just kill an opponent usually. The deck does just win with attacking with both or hardcasting Emrakul, though the SnT is a change.

Where's the report posted? Would be interested in reading his experience.

[CabalTherapy]

Hello guys,
I have started playing this deck for diversion from ANT, and although finding a good mb configuration, I somehow struggle to find a suitable SB.
I know that there are several routes one can take but I am unsure which one is the best. My meta is too small for mindgaming people with a Doomsday SB. At least that is my guess.
Nonetheless, I have thought about a reactive SB with Young Pyromancer (MB Badlands) which has been the MVP in ANT for a while. But on the other hand, this decks strategy is by far
inferior to ANT's because ANT could still win via Tendrils supported by Pyromancer and Tin Fins eventually would need 20 Pyromancer dmg to win. (after, let's say a resolved RiP or Cage or whatever)
Has anyone of you already tried Young Pyromancer? Or is this simply a crappy idea?

[Ghost588]

Drew Levin just did an article mentioning the gp list that went 12-3 and this weekends list :)

[kihachi]

I just found the Doomsday sideboard primer linked to in the first post, and I have to say it has rejuvenated my interest in the deck. I know not everyone loves transformational sideboards, but with the amount of graveyard hate I experience in post-sideboard games at every tournament I attend, I definitely appreciate a sideboard option that completely nullifies it, and Show and Tell was never consistent enough.

My question for those of you familiar with the Doomsday plan is, why do we need the Storm option alongside the Shelldock option? I ask partly for budgetary reasons, as I just recently sold my Lion's Eye Diamonds, but I also really don't understand the necessity. I suppose there are some corner cases where you need the Storm win, like Karakas + Wasteland, but I feel like adding additional redundancy like Preordains or Burning Wishes would be more beneficial than having two Doomsday win-cons. I'm probably missing something.

Either way, I'm truly excited to give this a shot and learn more about Doomsday.

[.dk]

I just found the Doomsday sideboard primer linked to in the first post, and I have to say it has rejuvenated my interest in the deck. I know not everyone loves transformational sideboards, but with the amount of graveyard hate I experience in post-sideboard games at every tournament I attend, I definitely appreciate a sideboard option that completely nullifies it, and Show and Tell was never consistent enough.

My question for those of you familiar with the Doomsday plan is, why do we need the Storm option alongside the Shelldock option? I ask partly for budgetary reasons, as I just recently sold my Lion's Eye Diamonds, but I also really don't understand the necessity. I suppose there are some corner cases where you need the Storm win, like Karakas + Wasteland, but I feel like adding additional redundancy like Preordains or Burning Wishes would be more beneficial than having two Doomsday win-cons. I'm probably missing something.

Either way, I'm truly excited to give this a shot and learn more about Doomsday.

Doomsday... so, Shelldock is really really slow, and necessitates a pass the turn pile. Tendrils is much faster as you win the turn you cast Doomsday, and don't let them draw another card. Shelldock is more easily disrupted too. A few things they can play that screw with it:

Karakas
Wasteland
Pithing Needle
Meddling Mage naming Emrakul (this happened against Wanderlust)
Ensnaring Bridge
Stifle

And I'm sure there are boat loads more. In summary - Shelldock/Emrakul is really only good against slower grindy decks without much of a clock (e.g. Miracles).

Really though... seriously guys. Go to the Doomsday thread or Stormboards to learn about Doomsday. This is totally not the right place. Learn how to play DDFT for a while (like a year or more), and then use the transformation.

[.dk]

Hello guys,
I have started playing this deck for diversion from ANT, and although finding a good mb configuration, I somehow struggle to find a suitable SB.
I know that there are several routes one can take but I am unsure which one is the best. My meta is too small for mindgaming people with a Doomsday SB. At least that is my guess.
Nonetheless, I have thought about a reactive SB with Young Pyromancer (MB Badlands) which has been the MVP in ANT for a while. But on the other hand, this decks strategy is by far
inferior to ANT's because ANT could still win via Tendrils supported by Pyromancer and Tin Fins eventually would need 20 Pyromancer dmg to win. (after, let's say a resolved RiP or Cage or whatever)
Has anyone of you already tried Young Pyromancer? Or is this simply a crappy idea?


Oh yeah, I meant to reply to this too. I personally haven't tried it, as I haven't played around with a red splash in a very long time. I certainly can't say it's a "crappy" idea, per se, but I am wary of splashing another maindeck. As I have been for a long time. But, possibly in a Burning Wish build, it could be a sweet sideboard plan? Test it and see?

[phazonmutant]

Oh yeah, I meant to reply to this too. I personally haven't tried it, as I haven't played around with a red splash in a very long time. I certainly can't say it's a "crappy" idea, per se, but I am wary of splashing another maindeck. As I have been for a long time. But, possibly in a Burning Wish build, it could be a sweet sideboard plan? Test it and see?

Honestly, 2 white sources is a little excessive considering it's just for Children maindeck and 2 Serenities postboard. Serenity mostly comes in against Miracles, where they don't pressure your lands, and against MUD, where you can't really win. Erm. I mean you just have to fetch intelligently and one Serenity should do it. Splashing a white source and a red source isn't that unreasonable, and I've played lists with 2 Gemstones before and they were fine.

CabalTherapy -
About the Pyromancer though, I'm not sure it's a great idea. Most Miracles will leave in a couple Terminus for mising Emrakul, and I often find white decks leaving in a couple Swords because they think it's good (even though they're wrong). Figuring out the sideboard has been the problem with this deck pretty much for as long as it's been a thing.

[cogitoergosum]

Regarding the manabase, ANT seems to do perfectly fine with only 2 U Seas, perhaps we could also cut one to fit another color. If that were the case though, I think I would rather run green over red for reverent silence and AD. However, since we are such a fast combo maybe that decreases the odds too much of having the correct mana sources.

[warfordium]

Drew Levin just did an article mentioning the gp list that went 12-3 and this weekends list :)

The Bastard. I was going to run it this weekend for Portland and now it is on everyone's radar. :|

[kihachi]

Doomsday... so, Shelldock is really really slow, and necessitates a pass the turn pile. Tendrils is much faster as you win the turn you cast Doomsday, and don't let them draw another card. Shelldock is more easily disrupted too. A few things they can play that screw with it:

Karakas
Wasteland
Pithing Needle
Meddling Mage naming Emrakul (this happened against Wanderlust)
Ensnaring Bridge
Stifle

And I'm sure there are boat loads more. In summary - Shelldock/Emrakul is really only good against slower grindy decks without much of a clock (e.g. Miracles).

Really though... seriously guys. Go to the Doomsday thread or Stormboards to learn about Doomsday. This is totally not the right place. Learn how to play DDFT for a while (like a year or more), and then use the transformation.

Thanks for the input! I definitely plan on learning more about Doomsday through the forums and playing it if and when I can acquire the pieces, but I just had that one question for now which you've answered admirably. I guess I'm less worried about the cards in that list since we can just include Pithing Needle or CoV in our Shelldock pile (unless they have two of them, in which case, yeah, we lose). But it is a very slow Doomsday pile, requiring a pass even if we're holding a GP or have a Top on the table, so I get that if you can make 9 storm and kill on that turn it would be hugely advantageous.

OK, apologies for hijacking the thread. You may now return to your scheduled Tin Fins discussion. Thank you for your input dk!

[.dk]

No problem, I just want to make sure that people are going to the right place to learn about doomsday. I'm no expert with DDFT... so while I can tell you what I did, I'm far from the best person to ask.

Also, as far as the manabase goes, I'm not saying it's impossible to run another color (red or green), it just makes your fetchlands and what lands you're actually fetching really weird. I mean, I'm currently running 4 USeas (only 1 white source maindeck) - that's really not needed. One of those could easily be a rainbow land (and that might actually be better to be able to cast Children sometimes).

I run into this problem in 5C DDFT sometimes too - you just end up fetching what looks to be the right dual early, and it comes back to bite you later. It's probably less of an issue in this deck, as we want to close out games quickly, but still a valid concern, in my opinion.

It does make more sense for the reactive board though as it opens up a lot more options (such as Reverent Silence, City of Solitude, etc.)

[Ghost588]

The Bastard. I was going to run it this weekend for Portland and now it is on everyone's radar. :|

I feel like this is on very few peoples radar. I've been wanting to play this deck for a while now and as soon as I mention it- every asks me why. I've only met one person who has respected this deck. Granted, I also live in an area where everyone thinks scapeshift Nic Fit is one of the best decks in the format. I'm still very excited to put control down and when I get a chance to play, it will be with this deck :)

[Koby]

Our shining moment:

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/373519422?t=9h5m25s

God bless you Silas.

[.dk]

If they are playing Nic Fit, teach them to respect the sacred ritual of sacrificing kids on turn 1. Over and over and over again. By the time you are 50-0 against them, they'll learn.

[.dk]

Our shining moment:

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/373519422?t=9h5m25s

God bless you Silas.

If only the source had a like, favorite, or retweet button. I'd be mashing it right now!

[Acclimation]

Oh, man, if I lived in a Nic Fit meta, I would have the firmest nips.

And all the hate for our name. Haters gonna hate.

[Richard Cheese]

Our shining moment:

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/373519422?t=9h5m25s

God bless you Silas.

Osyp so salty just because he's not down with early 2000's late-night cartoons.

[Technics]

Thanks for the input! I definitely plan on learning more about Doomsday through the forums and playing it if and when I can acquire the pieces, but I just had that one question for now which you've answered admirably. I guess I'm less worried about the cards in that list since we can just include Pithing Needle or CoV in our Shelldock pile (unless they have two of them, in which case, yeah, we lose). But it is a very slow Doomsday pile, requiring a pass even if we're holding a GP or have a Top on the table, so I get that if you can make 9 storm and kill on that turn it would be hugely advantageous.

OK, apologies for hijacking the thread. You may now return to your scheduled Tin Fins discussion. Thank you for your input dk!

So even if they have 2 pieces on that list you can still win. This happened to me Game 3, Round 1 at the SCG open. Sadly I did not win due to being a Blue mana source short, but here it is.

Him: Meddling Mage, Batterskull and a blank in hand. Tundra, Volc, in play.
Me: Doomsday on the stack, Sea, Scrubland, in play, Lotus Petal, Brainstorm in hand.

I stack Needle, Isle, Chain, Emmy, Doomsday as my pile. I draw off Brainstorm, cast Needle on Wasteland, play Isle. He takes his turn and plays Mage on Emmy. I end up losing due to my inability to Chain Mage, and activate Shelldock in the same turn, while also leaving BBB open to second DDay to leave cards in my library and avoid decking. Had the Scrubland been a Sea, or a second land been involved we get the win there.

I have played a lot of Doomsday, and I seriously recommend playing around with it before taking it out.

[Mhenlo]

So even if they have 2 pieces on that list you can still win. This happened to me Game 3, Round 1 at the SCG open. Sadly I did not win due to being a Blue mana source short, but here it is.

Him: Meddling Mage, Batterskull and a blank in hand. Tundra, Volc, in play.
Me: Doomsday on the stack, Sea, Scrubland, in play, Lotus Petal, Brainstorm in hand.

I stack Needle, Isle, Chain, Emmy, Doomsday as my pile. I draw off Brainstorm, cast Needle on Wasteland, play Isle. He takes his turn and plays Mage on Emmy. I end up losing due to my inability to Chain Mage, and activate Shelldock in the same turn, while also leaving BBB open to second DDay to leave cards in my library and avoid decking. Had the Scrubland been a Sea, or a second land been involved we get the win there.

I have played a lot of Doomsday, and I seriously recommend playing around with it before taking it out.

IU | LED | SDT | LED | Tendrils

Cast Brainstorm off USea, Draw IU, LED, SDT put back, IU, X(you cast Needle and played Isle in the same turn assuming you had atleast 1 card other than Brainstorm in hand) cast LED, cast SDT off of scrubland, cracking LED for UUU, draw and cast IU drawing X, SDT, LED with U floating, using the U floating cast SDT, then cast LED crack LED for BBB crack Lotus Petal, tap top, then cast Tendrils with a storm of DR->DD?, LP, BS, LED, SDT, IU, SDT, LED, Tendrils for 20 damage. IDK if the situation you described would work with mine, IDK if USea and Scrubland are untapped post DD or if it was a PtT Pile.


EDIT: miss read saw LP was in hand, thought it was in play and you had another card in hand.
EDIT2: Couldn't you have cast the 2nd Doomsday before trying to CoV or activate Isle?

[dte]

Him: Meddling Mage, Batterskull and a blank in hand. Tundra, Volc, in play.
Me: Doomsday on the stack, Sea, Scrubland, in play, Lotus Petal, Brainstorm in hand.


How much spells did you play before DD and how much life did your opponent have?
If you played 2 spells, you could have a ToA for 20, or if you have play only one vs 18 lifes this should work:

If you stack IU/GP/LED/DR/TOA
you can:
tap USea, play BS (2), draw IU/GP/LED, keep GP/LED in hand IU/LP/DR/ToA in library.
play LED (3)
play GP (4), crack LED for UUU, draw IU
Play IU (5), draw LP/DR/ToA,
play LP + DR (7)
play ToA.

[Technics]

How much spells did you play before DD and how much life did your opponent have?
If you played 2 spells, you could have a ToA for 20, or if you have play only one vs 18 lifes this should work:

If you stack IU/GP/LED/DR/TOA
you can:
tap USea, play BS (2), draw IU/GP/LED, keep GP/LED in hand IU/LP/DR/ToA in library.
play LED (3)
play GP (4), crack LED for UUU, draw IU
Play IU (5), draw LP/DR/ToA,
play LP + DR (7)
play ToA.

This looks like it should have worked. Either the game state was different than I thought, or I (more likely) just missed this pile.

[Technics]

Ran Pom's list at Eudomonia today. Ended up going 4-1 (scoop friend into Top 4) 8-1 in games.

Only cared about casting Burning Wish twice (Grabbed S&T against lands, with Emmy in hand; Made 12 goblins against reanimater). Not as big of a deal losing the extra Vengances, and was rather happy with the list. Did not run green, and think that was the right call.

[TiltingKitty]

Decided to YOLO it up and sacrifice children at this Knightware event (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28826-Los-Angeles-CA-December-14-2014-Knight-Ware-4X-each-Fetch-Ons-Zen-20-25). Hottest run of my life.

R1 Prosak Durdle ANT 2-0
R2 Goblins 2-1
R3 BG Prison 2-1
R4 Vidianto Wijaya 1-2 (Look to my right, see a Maverick mirror. Sigh.)
R5 Dredge 2-1
R6 ID
Top and chop, would have been paired against UWR Delver. Bullet dodged.

[.dk]

Nice 4-1-1. What was the 75 you were running?

[TiltingKitty]

It's in the link.

Don't ask about the sb, I didn't build it and I know it's hideous >.<

[Richard Cheese]

It's in the link.

Don't ask about the sb, I didn't build it and I know it's hideous >.<

Brb, re-writing primer to include Crippling Fatigue board.

Seriously though, it doesn't look that bad. I'm curious as to how the Decays worked out, also how you liked Daze over Thoughtseize main?

[TiltingKitty]

Yeah, Fatigue was quite good in the one matchup I brought it in on (Goblins). The Deluge is supposed to be a 2nd Massacre btw but we couldn't find one.

I didn't like the Decays that much. They seemed clunky and wasted a sb slot on a land. Miracles is/was at an unusual low so I would have rather had Chain of Vapor every time.

Daze was good against the combo decks and eh against everything else. I think if I run it back I'll go up to 2 Seize, since it's a good catch-all answer against unknown hate plans on the draw. I took Daze out on the draw against all the not-combo decks and Seize out against Goblins, BG, and Dredge.

ETA: I also didn't really like LDV because it costs UB and doesn't draw you the top card of the stack, meaning you need a 3rd mana to cantrip into what you need if you're trying to go off that turn.

[Koby]

ETA: I also didn't really like LDV because it costs UB and doesn't draw you the top card of the stack, meaning you need a 3rd mana to cantrip into what you need if you're trying to go off that turn.

Think of it as a Vampiric Tutor, then the deck opens up. It's typically for turn 3 kills.

[.dk]

I'm not sure how I managed to miss there even being a link there...

Crippling Fatigue is sweet! Awesome find!

Personally, I never liked having to pay mana for Abrupt Decay. When I splashed green, I liked Reverent Silence for the Miracles matchup. It rarely gets countered by counterbalance.

Interesting that you didn't like LDV - I always find it to be an all-star. But, it sounds like you're casting it on your combo turn? Try to think of it like a slightly more awkward Mystical Tutor, and cast on opponent's EOT to set up for your next turn. Unless you have a Gitaxian Probe in hand, of course.

Congrats again! Sounds like the deck treated you well overall!

/edit: ninja-d by Koby on LDV!

[The Last Emperor]

I put together the 75 that TiltingKitty played (she can confirm this). Here's the thought process the non-stock choices:

Abrupt Decay is a catch all. Removes most forms of Grave Hate forever and deals with Counterbalance.
Daze is free. This allows you to go off T1 with protection without needed a 4th mana source.
Show and Tell gives you an enabler that doesn't use the graveyard. May be too slow, especially since Containment Priest is now a thing.
Speaking of Priest, Crippling Fatigue kills it dead, and you can find it with Entomb. It also kills Deathrite dead provided you can Entomb + Flash it back on the same turn. Good card is good.

In hindsight and after talking with TiltingKitty about the event, there probably should be some number of Serenitys in the board. Also did want a Silence/2nd Seize in the main and another Needle in the board, but inexperience with the deck (never played it, first time putting it together for someone) led me to not know what cards to cut.

[TraxDaMax]

Can we afford to Entomb for Crippling Fatigue (or any non-kill card) for that matter? When I once played the deck the way to lose was usually not find Entomb for me.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

After finding Crippling Fatigue, it's hard to not take another look at Intuition.

[.dk]

Well, sometimes you have an extra entomb, or the Griselbrand + Discard. Sometimes you need to do that as your out if there is a Containment Priest on the board. If that is your only way to win...

I can still see the appeal of Intuition in this deck - but I think it's just too slow. LDV sets up a T3 kill, and Intuition effectively sets up a T4 kill. I think the extra turn matters a lot, even though you can get more options with Intuition.

[TraxDaMax]

I decided to take this to the Belgian Legacy Cup, which had over 100 players! Small report.

Round one vs Mono red Sneak Attack. 0-2
Lose the die roll. He plays a turn 1 Chalice on1. I look at my hand of Entomb, 3 other 1cc spells, Shallow Grave and 2 lands and decide I'll draw a couple of cards before scooping.
Game2 I have a turn 3 kill, but he has a turn 2 Sneak Attack and a Blightsteel puts me at 0-1.

Round 2 vs Zoo
Game 1 I get to sneak an Entomb'ed Griselbrand into the yard when my opponent taps his last green mana for ScavengingOoze targetting an irrelevant Cabal Therapy.
Game 2 a duo of Wild Nacatl with a turn 2 RiP make sure my turns are numbered
Game 3 I can Duress away a RiP. He plays Pithing Needle on Griselbrand, so I wait till he plays his third land an Knight of the Reliquary to Goryo's an Emrakul to wipe his board and put him to 5. I find a reanimate and take his knight to proceed to kill him. 1-1

Round 3 U/Wr Miracles
Game1 I turn 1 Cabal naming FoW, see the coast is clear and go for it turn 2. Get there.
Game2 I Thoughtseize a RiP away, and Decay his Counterbalance. I manage to Show and Tell Emrakul into play vs his Blood Moon, Vendillion Clique and 4/4 vigilance lifelink germ while at less then 10 life. But with a couple of Sensei's shenanigans he is able to Terminus everything away and eventually replay the equipment which bashes me to death.
Game 3 I am able to resolve a Show and Tell again and Emrakul does what it has to do. 2-1

Round 4 vs UR Delver
Game 1 I probe him turn two seeing the coast is clear and Grizza+Children have him concede.
Game2 A turn 2 Young Pyro + Daze + Double FoW make sure none of my spells resolve and the 5power team beats me down in short order.
Game 3 we trade discard and counters, and at a certain point I'm able to cabal two delvers away leaving him with a land in hand+REB.
I find a silence which lets me resolve Lim-Dums Vault which tutors me the kill the next turn. 3-1

Round5 vs Omnitell
Game 1 I go off turn 1.
Game 2 my draw is Entomb off the top letting me go off turn one again. He doesn't have FoW after his turn 1 Ponder. Lucky me. 4-1

Round 6 vs Reanimator
Game1 I Cabal him seeing Double Reanimate and Double Entomb. I had Ritual and Shallow Grave but no way to bin a Griselbrand and he wins in short order.
Game 2 I Duress his Ponder away seeing Bayou and 2 2cc reanimate spells. I Daze his Duress. And decide end of his second turn after that I should Entomb so I can Ponder the next turn and cast a reanimate spell I need to find with the Ponder. But I brick and turn after he casts a topdecked reanimate. Punt punished hard and there goes my chance at top 8. 4-2

Round 7 vs U/W Stoneblade
I don't remember everything precisely as I was tired, half tilting still from the previous round and have a cold, but they were close games where I lose 1-2, knocking me out of top 16 too for sure. 4-3

Overall I'm still impressed by the deck, and the rogue'ishness of it catches a lot of people offguard. The 2 Daze main did a lot of work because people who did know the origal version didn't expect Daze.
I would say basicly any matchup can be won or lost depending on who gets to start and how fast we are. This should be pretty obvious by the 7 different decks I faced.
I don't consider the deck Tier 1 though. But it sure is good in long tournaments where you need to save up brainpower because games are often under 10minutes ;) I think it's up there with the other Yolodecks (Belcher, OopsAllSpells etc...)

[.dk]

Overall I'm still impressed by the deck, and the rogue'ishness of it catches a lot of people offguard. The 2 Daze main did a lot of work because people who did know the origal version didn't expect Daze.
I would say basicly any matchup can be won or lost depending on who gets to start and how fast we are. This should be pretty obvious by the 7 different decks I faced.
I don't consider the deck Tier 1 though. But it sure is good in long tournaments where you need to save up brainpower because games are often under 10minutes ;) I think it's up there with the other Yolodecks (Belcher, OopsAllSpells etc...)

Sounds like a fun event, at any rate!

I don't think the deck is necessarily Tier 1 either, but I think it's more resilient and flexible than you're giving it credit for. Belcher has a few lines of attack, which give it resiliency. This deck doesn't commit all of it's resources into the combo turn, which can give you the resources to recover through disruption. With cards like LDV and the sheer amount of reanimation spells, the deck is fairly redundant and well equipped to fight through counterspells. Personally, while usually the correct line of play is to #YOLO, I do think this is more an a YOLODeck. But that's my opinion.

[Acclimation]

Sounds like a fun event, at any rate!

I don't think the deck is necessarily Tier 1 either, but I think it's more resilient and flexible than you're giving it credit for. Belcher has a few lines of attack, which give it resiliency. This deck doesn't commit all of it's resources into the combo turn, which can give you the resources to recover through disruption. With cards like LDV and the sheer amount of reanimation spells, the deck is fairly redundant and well equipped to fight through counterspells. Personally, while usually the correct line of play is to #YOLO, I do think this is more an a YOLODeck. But that's my opinion.

I had a game once where I resolved an Entomb, and proceeded to draw 5 of my Reanimation spells within 4 turns and just batter my way through the 6 counterspells my opponent ended up drawing.

The guy just looked so defeated when I finally resolved the Goryo.

[wonderPreaux]

Out of curiosity, does any one stream this deck on mtgo these days? Pomoegrant, iirc his name, streams the Burning Wish version every now and then, and I recall LOFNOTC is a streamer who consistently plays Tin Fins but lately hasn't streamed at all. Is there anyone else out there harvesting the onions and what not?

[alastair]

I recently traded decks for an event, trying a friends build. I might be off by a few cards, but the key changes are Careful Study with 4 Grisslebrand, lower land count, increased ToA / Child, and lower disruption count.

4 Grisselbrand
2 Child
1 Emrakul
2 ToA

4 BS
2 Ponder
3 Careful Study
4 GP

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Vengence
2 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

2 Chrome Mox
4 DR
4 Petal
11 Land

This is miles away from what I considered 'optimum', but was really surprised by how good the deck felt; far more explosive that my more conservative LDV, additional land, and disruptive build; but with little loss in consistency.

I’ve modified my own list as a result, although this is a work in progress: increasing to 3x Grisselbrand with 3x Careful Study (which was very impressive), but retaining a single Child, ToA, and Mox, with 13 Lands. The key thing I have taken away was the benefit of the second Reanimate paired with the Careful Study/Therapy. The frequency of T1 or T2 Therapy/Entomb/Study, into Reanimate dramatically increased.

It has however screwed the neat 15 card Doomsday plan, which I’m really liking.

[.dk]

Out of curiosity, does any one stream this deck on mtgo these days? Pomoegrant, iirc his name, streams the Burning Wish version every now and then, and I recall LOFNOTC is a streamer who consistently plays Tin Fins but lately hasn't streamed at all. Is there anyone else out there harvesting the onions and what not?

I have the deck, but I don't have a setup to stream, unfortunately. I also can't ever seem to find a time where I want to sit down and use that program for like 5 hours straight... Chris (LOFNOTC) sold his MODO collection, so he's not streaming anymore either. :(


I had a game once where I resolved an Entomb, and proceeded to draw 5 of my Reanimation spells within 4 turns and just batter my way through the 6 counterspells my opponent ended up drawing.

The guy just looked so defeated when I finally resolved the Goryo.

I LOVE when that happens! I had a pretty hilarious match against Dan Lanthier at GP Atlanta in 2012 like that too. I think I described it in my report, but it produced one of my favorite Richard Cheese quotes after he was watching the match: "His graveyard was an encyclopedia of countermagic!"

[Koby]

I have the deck on MTGO, and am looking to re-start streaming it. Give me a few more weeks to get my office set up. Part of my project is to wire up a hardline connection which will increase performance of my stream's upload speed.

Anyone have a drywall drill I can borrow? :smile:

[.dk]

I do, but you'll have to come to Boulder to get it. Or I'll bring it to GP Denver to coax you into coming. :)

[Koby]

Sorry, it might take longer than a few weeks for WotC to fix their shitty program.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B5lJ0WUCAAAJPuX.png:large

[ANRoebuck]

So a couple of friends of mine, whose opinions I respect quite a lot when it comes to legacy, told me that I needed to give this deck a try. I'd never played it before, but I'd recently come back from judging a couple of GPs so I walked up to the singles trader at one of our local shops, handed him a stack of judge foils and said "gimme tinfins cards." Then tonight I played my first event with the deck at our store's Christmas legacy thing. Below is a quick rundown of how it went. For context: I'd describe myself as a generally competent player but not awesome (always qualified for nationals, 6-3'd a GP, come 9th at a PTQ, that kind of thing), with reasonable knowledge of legacy in general, but I am completely unfamiliar with this deck.

List:

1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Careful Study
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Cabal Therpy
2 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate

2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony


Side:
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Show and Tell
4 Omniscience
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Boseiju



Round 1: Sneak and Show

Game 1

My opponent mull'd to 5, led on Volcanic Island -> Ponder and shipped the turn. I had the nut draw, leading on Probe for life to make sure the coast was definitely clear I had an easy turn 1. I already suspected that only running 2 Probe might be a mistake - I'd wanted to avoid paying life and leaving myself short for a Griselbrand activation, but I really do love playing with perfect information.

Sideboarding:

The Probe made it clear my opponent was on Sneak/Show. Show and Tell is awkwardly positioned in a match where both players have Griselbrand and Emrakul, but I figured that it's "better" for me as I'm far more likely to cast it in my own turn and win in that same turn while my opponent needs an extra turn to be able to win. I also suspected my opponent would cut his own Shows, as well as bringing in some graveyard hate. I went for the transformation, putting myself on the Show plan.

Game 2

I keep a hand that doesn't quite have the combo, but has two cantrips plus some disruption. My opponent leads on Volc -> Ponder again. I Probe and see 2x Spell Pierce, Force, Dig Through Time, Ponder, Land. I cast Cabal Therapy (with a second in hand) intending to name Spell Pierce if it resolves. My opponent pitches Dig to Force to counter it. His second turn is Land -> Ponder again. I draw Children. I cast a second Therapy, which he Spell Pierces. I then cast Children, sac it to flashback Therapy, and leave him with just his previously unknown card - Brainstorm. His turn 3 is draw, go. By turn 3 I've found the missing piece of the puzzle and am free to go off courtesy of Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Griselbrand.

1-0


Round 2: Jund

Game 1

I kept a pretty decent hand but my opponent has double Wasteland, Thoughtseize, and Hymn, which proved to be a real headache as my mana sources were Sea and Tundra. He leads with Badlands into Thoughtseize, taking one of my Ponders. I Probe for life (seeing the remaining disruption), then Sea into Ponder, hoping for the best. I find good cards but only a Petal for extra mana. My opponent's turn two probably should have been the Hymn or a Waste, but instead he played Dark Confidant. This gave me time to take the Hymn away from him with a Therapy. I was still kind of vulnerable to disruption at that point, but his turn three of "Goyf, attack with Bob, go" just wasn't interactive enough. I guess he'd figured out that two Griselbrand activations would put me to exactly 3, and that by leaving up mana he was forcing me to play around Bolt. In reality I think just wasting one of my lands would have been better, as Therapy in the graveyard meant I was fairly likely to clear Bolt out of his hand. A fairly solid win here, but made much easier by my opponent underestimating both the speed of the combo and the fragility of the mana base - I was kind of surprised that the game ended with two Wastes still in his hand.

Boarding

I know my opponent already has 4 Deathrite main, and expect more graveyard hate out of the board. I switch 14 cards, not bothering with the Boseiju as obviously he has no counters.

Game 2

I'm on the draw, but have a pretty bonkers hand that's going to Show an Emrakul into play on turn 1. My opponent leads with Badlands -> Grafdigger's Cage, and I'm feeling really good about the transformation at this point. I joke that if he has two lands and a Liliana, he probably wins, then cast my Show. I put in Emrakul, he puts in second black source. He untaps, plays Wasteland -> Liliana, and edicts me. There's no way I'm coming back from this, so we go to game three.

Game 3

My opponent mulligans to 5, desperately trying to find some interaction. It's no good, and I'm able to go off on turn two.

2-0


Round 3: Miracles

My opponent is on the play and makes turn 1 Top into turn 2 Counterbalance. Aside from my turn 1 Ponder, I didn't resolve a spell all game. I let it play out for a few turns, just to try and see a few more of his cards, but I concede on around turn 5 or 6.

Boarding

This was tough, as I was definitely expecting Rest in Peace but he also has counterspells. I decide that the transformation is still the better plan and go for it. I'm able to make a turn 3 Emrakul after priming with Probe/Therapy/Ponder over turns 1&2, but my opponent puts in a land off the Show and has land number 4 + Jace to bounce the Emrakul. I scoop.

2-1


Round 4: U/R Landstill

Game 1

I keep the nut draw and go off on turn one. My opponent makes me play it out, but there was nothing he could have done to stop me. If anything he should have scooped instead of hoping I somehow fizzled - letting me see his hand off Probe was great for me.

Boarding

I'm expecting to win anyway, and I'm more curious about testing my sideboard than the main at this point (although I need to get better with the deck, the 60 is essentially trivial - we all know it's "good" and there's not a huge deal to learn there). I go for the transformation.


Game 2

My opponent mulls to 5, presumably looking for interaction. I'm beginning to appreciate just how much pressure this deck puts on your opponents to have the answers. Of course, sometimes they just do, but bullying people into taking mulligans when they have what in most matches would be a keepable hand feels really good. Opponent leads Volc, go. I fetch for basic Swamp (having seen Wastes in game 1) and Therapy blind, naming Force. I see a hand of land, Crucible, Bolt, and Counterspell. His turn two is land go, leaving Counterspell up. I fetch basic Island, and Ponder. I find Boseiju. He Bolts me end step, untaps and ships the turn straight back. I make tapped Boseiju, and pass the turn. He doesn't draw Wasteland, and that's basically game over. I showed into Emrakul the next turn.

3-1




So that's my first try with tinfins. 3-1, and the one loss was to a guy who's made the Pro Tour several times so I don't feel too bad about that. I really liked the Ominscience plan, rather than just going to 4 Griselbrand 4 Emrakul, as it's about as close to 8 Griselbrands as you can get. Showing in an Emrakul means you have to let them have a turn before you can kill them; showing in Omniscience means you can start chaining free cantrips until you find whatever else you need to win. I definitely have a couple of things I'd like to change for next time, probably something like this:

Main
+2 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Reanimate
+1 Griselbrand
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Lim-Dul's Vault
-1 Ponder
-1 Thoughtseize

Side
-1 Griselbrand (moved to main)
-1 Emrakul
-1 Boseiju
+3 Defence Grid

[wonderPreaux]

I have the deck on MTGO, and am looking to re-start streaming it. Give me a few more weeks to get my office set up. Part of my project is to wire up a hardline connection which will increase performance of my stream's upload speed.

Anyone have a drywall drill I can borrow? :smile:

Alright, I'll be looking forward to it. IIRC, you streamed TES a while back too?

[Richard Cheese]

So that's my first try with tinfins. 3-1, and the one loss was to a guy who's made the Pro Tour several times so I don't feel too bad about that. I really liked the Ominscience plan, rather than just going to 4 Griselbrand 4 Emrakul, as it's about as close to 8 Griselbrands as you can get. Showing in an Emrakul means you have to let them have a turn before you can kill them; showing in Omniscience means you can start chaining free cantrips until you find whatever else you need to win. I definitely have a couple of things I'd like to change for next time, probably something like this:

Main
+2 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Reanimate
+1 Griselbrand
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Lim-Dul's Vault
-1 Ponder
-1 Thoughtseize

Side
-1 Griselbrand (moved to main)
-1 Emrakul
-1 Boseiju
+3 Defence Grid

Interesting board. I've always felt like the problem with Show and Tell is that it opens you up to counters in a big way, and didn't really think it was workable without either Silence or Flusterstorm or both in the board as well, but maybe I'm wrong? It looks like you never needed to go for Omniscience, or maybe just never had it in hand...has it been working out in testing? I would be interested to see how it compares to Dream Halls, which would at least be slightly castable if you're boarding in Tombs.

Finally, I would cut Careful Study before Thoughtseize or Ponder, esp. with the sideboard moving you to a 2-card combo that's more susceptible to disruption/counters. Overall, awesome finish though, and thanks for the report!

[ANRoebuck]

Interesting board. I've always felt like the problem with Show and Tell is that it opens you up to counters in a big way, and didn't really think it was workable without either Silence or Flusterstorm or both in the board as well, but maybe I'm wrong? It looks like you never needed to go for Omniscience, or maybe just never had it in hand...has it been working out in testing?

I played five post-board games, of which I won three - two being Omniscience driven kills. Chaining free draw spells until you cast Emrakul for free seems a pretty solid way of closing up the game, and is far less vulnerable to their outs to Emrakul. Twice in the five games (i.e. both of the two that I lost) I showed in Emrakul to have it die without ever attacking (one LotV edict on my opponent's turn 2; one JtMS unsummon on my opponent's turn 3) - this doesn't happen if you run the Omniscience line. You also don't have to worry about both players putting in Emrakul and your opponent getting to attack first. The potential downside, I guess, is that you just play your free draw spells and fizzle. But overall I came away feeling that Omniscience was a really good card to be Showing in.

Counters are definitely an issue, which is why my first go with the deck did include a miser's Boseiju (which did do the trick in one game). For next time I want more protection against counters and at the moment I'm thinking Defense Grid might be a good shout. The ability to cast it turn 1 off Ancient Tomb is really appealing.



I would be interested to see how it compares to Dream Halls, which would at least be slightly castable if you're boarding in Tombs.

I did think about Dream Halls, as it gives you a better chance than Omniscience does to win without finding a Show, but ultimately I felt that UU was a bit too difficult a cost to reach early and reliably.


Finally, I would cut Careful Study before Thoughtseize or Ponder, esp. with the sideboard moving you to a 2-card combo that's more susceptible to disruption/counters. Overall, awesome finish though, and thanks for the report!

Careful Study was really strong with the game one plan as it's another way to get Griselbrand into the bin, but Ponder is definitely better for the Show plan. Will have to think about that one.

[Koby]

I'm going to be trying out the red splash for Burning Wish again. I don't have much expectations, but hoping that it is fruitful.

+4 Burning Wish
+3-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Thoughtseize
0 Lim Dul's Vault
2 Goryo's Vengeance
0 Reanimate
0 Silence (maindeck anyway, maybe even SB, going in line with TES's direction recently)
0 Tendrils maindeck

Probably also going back to 60 cards since the SB space is needed for Wishboard:

2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
3 LED

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
1 Goryo's Vengeance

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Burning Wish

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize

3 USea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
8 black fetches

SB:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Buried Alive (?)
1 Show and Tell
1 Exhume
1 Reanimate (?)
1 Pyroclasm (? maybe more vs UR Delvers)
1 Massacre
1 Thoughtseize (? might be overkill)
1 Treasure Cruise (? interesting from lists I've seen, emergency cantrip?)
2 Duress (for boarding)
3 Chain of Vapor (still boss)