Is Legacy too fast?

[obituary 95]

the last time I can remember legacy having a fundamental turn this fast was right before mystical tutor got banned. should something be done to make the format slower?


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-4eak

[rxavage]

Increase staring life total to 35?

[Julian23]

What? This is the first time in years for a dedicated control deck to be Tier 1 again. Where's Zoo? Where's Merfolk? Even Sneak Show won't actually win earlier than traditional Storm Combo like TES and ANT. Some month before Mystical Tutor was banned, people were killing each other during the Upkeep of their very first turn. Reanimator and ANT we're way faster than they are now.

So?

[from Cairo]

I think the 3rd turn being the fundemental turn is fine. The only decks really pushing this boundary are TES and Dredge, which don't strike me as format warping presently. If anything Wizards has been promoting the ability of argo/control to compete - w/ additions of Thalia/Scavenging Ooze and Terminus in particular.

[Tombstalker]

I think the 3rd turn being the fundemental turn is fine. The only decks really pushing this boundary are TES and Dredge, which don't strike me as format warping presently. If anything Wizards has been promoting the ability of argo/control to compete - w/ additions of Thalia/Scavenging Ooze and Terminus in particular.
This sums it up for me. I love where the format is currently at, griselbargains, 1cc wraths, LEDlootings, flying nacatls and all. The speed and degeneracy is WHY I play legacy.

[joemauer]

WTF wizards! We finally get Land Tax back when the format is too fast to care about said card. What a rip off.

[Awaclus]

Well, Mystical Tutor didn't really need to be banned back then so I don't think anything should be done now either.

[Telperion]

Griselbanned etc.... lands just won the SCG open...

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Well, the last attempt to slow the format down got itself banned. :(

[evanmartyr]

MMS got banned because it was a *failed* attempt to slow the format down. All MMS did was introduce a weird amount of variance to games.

[bruizar]

MMS got banned because it was a *failed* attempt to slow the format down. All MMS did was introduce a weird amount of variance to games.

Nope, this is untrue. Mental Misstep was a blessing.

People should have just played stuff like Chalice of the Void and Vexing Shusher, or just slower decks.

Vintage still has Mental Misstep and after that appeared, legacy-like creature decks started becoming viable.

[Vacrix]

Based on the card pool you'd have to ban A LOT for it to be slower. I'd say powercreep has actually slowed the format down significantly by giving control decks much better tools. Snapcaster, SFM, Lingering Souls, Batterskull, etc. have created a more balanced format by giving the slower control decks tools to give them a niche over the Tempo decks that have always been relatively dominant in Legacy.

Also Wizards has made matchups like Reanimator and Dredge more interesting by printing cards like Scavenging Ooze. Otherwise its just a game of 'did I draw my graveyard hate?' and 'did he have a protection spell?'

EDIT:
Want to slow the format down? Print something to make Stasis playable again!

SNIP. Keep racist comments off the boards.

[Amon Amarth]

Nope, this is untrue. Mental Misstep was a blessing.

People should have just played stuff like Chalice of the Void and Vexing Shusher, or just slower decks.

Vintage still has Mental Misstep and after that appeared, legacy-like creature decks started becoming viable.

I agree. I think Mental Misstep slowed the format down and changed its FT turn to like 3.5-ish. It's a lot easier to metagame and beat decks that want to interact on the board with permanents than the faster stack-based decks.

I don't believe Legacy is too fast either. Seems fine, speed-wise, to me.

[Koby]

Pretty bad sign when Belcher vs Sneak Show go to turn 15 before a winner is realized. Guess that's too fast however. Let's try to make that turn 20.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

In a format where I lose to a turn one Chalice of Void?

Too fast.

[GexxX]

Why is it a bad thing when the format is faster? Because you can't play Landstill or Countertop anymore? Where is the argument for speed = unfun? I like where Legacy is going. It's not like a single Deck is more degenerate than others, a lot of different archetypes are playable and there are still controling builds keeping combo in check. The fastest Decks are not all over top8s. I don't think anything is wrong or unhealthy right now. Early game is shuffling? Sounds good to me:wink:

[Einherjer]

While Landstill isn't viable... CounterTop once again is. If you think it's too fast when I kill you Turn 20 with a bunch of Angels or a Jace...you should be playing Lands-mirror....
I like the "speed" of the format atm - weve got superfast-decks and slow ones. The superfast tend to fold to Spell Pierce (great card atm - wouldn't play less than 3 in any deck) while the slow ones still have severe weaknesses somewhere in the field. Sounds like a fair meta to me - and, thanks god, people stopped whining about Griselbrand.

Greetings

[Vacrix]

But you CAN play Countertop.

Its best suited in BUG control at the moment, based on what I've played. A friend picked it up a few months ago, Tops in the maindeck and CB post-board. Has a solid storm combo matchup and can deal with Burn via CB.

Honestly when people say Legacy is too fast it reminds me of what people said about SSBM. 'Melee's too fast! I can't handle it. I can't wavedash, L-cancel, crouch cancel, jump cancel grabs, wavelanding, etc. there are just too many advanced techniques and you need to know the metagame really fucking well to even compete with a competent player.' Well yeah, thats why people enjoy it. Legacy players enjoy the diversity of decks that they face; it makes the game more interesting. Also, there have been plenty of decks that weren't even considered 'real decks' that have now risen to competitive status. The card pool is expanding to the point at which the lower tier decks have access to much stronger cards. Take Death and Taxes as a PERFECT example. I loved playing this deck back when it wasn't considered 'a real deck'. But now it has maindeck answers to a bunch of cards and has all around decent matchups. IMO its the safest thing you can take to a tournament, and if you know the metagame, the Etutor board is extremely versatile in adjusting post-board with the right hate.

[Star|Scream]

Based on the card pool you'd have to ban A LOT for it to be slower. I'd say powercreep has actually slowed the format down significantly by giving control decks much better tools. Snapcaster, SFM, Lingering Souls, Batterskull, etc. have created a more balanced format by giving the slower control decks tools to give them a niche over the Tempo decks that have always been relatively dominant in Legacy.

Also Wizards has made matchups like Reanimator and Dredge more interesting by printing cards like Scavenging Ooze. Otherwise its just a game of 'did I draw my graveyard hate?' and 'did he have a protection spell?'

EDIT:
Want to slow the format down? Print something to make Stasis playable again!


Uh, Excuse me?

[kilgore_trout]

Uh, Excuse me?

Word. I was following until that last line.

To the topic at hand, nah legacy isn't too fast. At least maybe it doesn't seem like it's very fast because Tendrils and Dredge aren't running around as much right now.

[Intet's Attendant]

Want a slower format? Unban Mental Misstep.

Oh right, that made people piss and complain until it got banned for killing their favorite combo and aggro decks.

Well, enjoy your fast format then boys and girls. Now that Misstep is banned you can play any of the 20 combo decks without fear of getting your spells countered.

[Awaclus]

Well, enjoy your fast format then boys and girls. Now that Misstep is banned you can play any of the 20 combo decks without fear of getting your spells countered.
I have no idea where you are getting this picture from. There is one combo deck in the DTB section, one aggro deck, three tempo decks and three control decks. And the combo deck in there also usually runs at least 4 counterspells, and the aggro deck has other means to deal with combo decks. Nowadays playing combo is more difficult than during the MM era.

[CorpT]

People have apparently forgotten what a miserable game Mental Misstep produced.

[Kich867]

People have apparently forgotten what a miserable game Mental Misstep produced.

Miserable how?

[joemauer]

Miserable how?

Like having teeth pulled.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Miserable how?

I remember the one of the tournaments I played in when Misstep was legal, I was playing Merfolk (a respectable deck at the time).

Me, turn 1: Island, Vial
Him: Misstep
Me: Misstep your Misstep
Him: Misstep your Misstep
Me: Daze

Yay legacy? Holy shit I hated that time.

[Julian23]

Misstep was like playing with a forced Mulligan to 5-6 every game. Yeeeeah!

[CorpT]

Now imagine that with Snapcaster in the format. I can't believe people have forgotten this quickly how terrible that format was.

[csy]

how on earth could it be construed that its too fast? smells like troll....

[Nonex]

I remember the one of the tournaments I played in when Misstep was legal, I was playing Merfolk (a respectable deck at the time).

Me, turn 1: Island, Vial
Him: Misstep
Me: Misstep your Misstep
Him: Misstep your Misstep
Me: Daze

Yay legacy? Holy shit I hated that time.

That depends on how you approached things. A good bunch of my games (post-side) were:

Me: Forest, Birds of Paradise
Him: Misstep
Me: Okay, Summoning Trap
Him: ... Okay
Me: Emrakul, go

Maybe not the best metagame, but with good ways to fight it.

[Bignasty197]

That depends on how you approached things. A good bunch of my games (post-side) were:

Me: Forest, Birds of Paradise
Him: Misstep
Me: Okay, Summoning Trap
Him: ... Okay
Me: Emrakul, go

Maybe not the best metagame, but with good ways to fight it.

The format was so miserable with MM in the mix that I seriously almost tried this during that era...It was so obnoxious having Noble Hierarch Misstepped on my turn 1. Now they have to Bolt or Swords it like a normal person.

[(nameless one)]

Why not just play Vintage?

Have y'all seen the Bob, Spell Snare, Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep, Snapcaster Mage flashback Mental Misstep, Gush, Force of Will, Flusterstorm all the spells stack?

[Kich867]

The format was so miserable with MM in the mix that I seriously almost tried this during that era...It was so obnoxious having Noble Hierarch Misstepped on my turn 1. Now they have to Bolt or Swords it like a normal person.

Yeah! Now you have to sacrifice it to their turn 1 emrakul.

Last tournament:

Drop land, pass.
They drop sol land, petal, show and tell, griselbrand, go.

Next game was turn 2 sneak attack emrakul.

[DragoFireheart]

I'd still like to see what Legacy would be like if MM and Snappy were both legal.

[Koby]

Yeah! Now you have to sacrifice it to their turn 1 emrakul.

Last tournament:

Drop land, pass.
They drop sol land, petal, show and tell, griselbrand, go.

Next game was turn 2 sneak attack emrakul.

This is an example of why Force of Will is good at keeping things fair. Unfortunately, it's also an example of Blue being brilliantly over-represented in the metagame. However, this is a discussion for another thread.

[KevinTrudeau]

Just drink some cough syrup!

[menace13]

I loved Misstep and personally feel it was Tom L's parting shot at Eternal. Miss him for that alone. Although he did take away Mystical it was the same feelings of what he wants MtG to be that allowed MM to see print.

Legacy currently isn't that fastest nor the slowest that I have seen in past 3 years.

[Intet's Attendant]

I loved Misstep and personally feel it was Tom L's parting shot at Eternal. Miss him for that alone. Although he did take away Mystical it was the same feelings of what he wants MtG to be that allowed MM to see print.

Legacy currently isn't that fastest nor the slowest that I have seen in past 3 years.

What exactly does Tom want legacy to be? Control mirror matches?

[nedleeds]

Miserable how?

1 cc thing ...

Mistep ...

Mistep your mistep ...

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3n9P23MrlKguhChlNrd1motpJDJeai6-W4Hz0e7coEJFqkhM7Nw

[caiomarcos]

Based on the card pool you'd have to ban A LOT for it to be slower. I'd say powercreep has actually slowed the format down significantly by giving control decks much better tools. Snapcaster, SFM, Lingering Souls, Batterskull, etc. have created a more balanced format by giving the slower control decks tools to give them a niche over the Tempo decks that have always been relatively dominant in Legacy.


You're saying that powercreep gave control decks better tools to become FASTER. Legacy has always been fast, but barring Flash stupidity, I believe it had never been as fast as it is now.

Maybe combo is not as fast, but control is much faster now.

[CorpT]

You're saying that powercreep gave control decks better tools to become FASTER. Legacy has always been fast, but barring Flash stupidity, I believe it had never been as fast as it is now.

Maybe combo is not as fast, but control is much faster now.

What do you mean by control being fast? It kills faster? It gains control faster? What does "fast" even mean? What control decks are you referencing?

[caiomarcos]

What do you mean by control being fast? It kills faster? It gains control faster? What does "fast" even mean? What control decks are you referencing?


It kills faster and it controls faster. Be it an early Batterskull killing you in no time or an early Jace taking control of the game then eventually killing you.

I call them fast because, even being a control deck, they can race other "fast" decks with those tools (Jace and Stoneforge).

[CorpT]

It kills faster and it controls faster. Be it an early Batterskull killing you in no time or an early Jace taking control of the game then eventually killing you.

I call them fast because, even being a control deck, they can race other "fast" decks with those tools (Jace and Stoneforge).

I don't think either of those are particularly fast. Jace on turn 4 (assuming he survives) is 6-7 turn clock assuming no brainstorming or bouncing. SFM on turn 2 (assuming she survives) is a Batterskull attacking on turn 4.

All of that is assuming your opponent isn't doing anything to kill the SFM, attack the Jace, etc...

What is this faster than? Landstill? Sure. Landstill has always been slow. What control decks is this faster than?

[caiomarcos]

I don't think either of those are particularly fast. Jace on turn 4 (assuming he survives) is 6-7 turn clock assuming no brainstorming or bouncing. SFM on turn 2 (assuming she survives) is a Batterskull attacking on turn 4.

All of that is assuming your opponent isn't doing anything to kill the SFM, attack the Jace, etc...

What is this faster than? Landstill? Sure. Landstill has always been slow. What control decks is this faster than?

Every other control deck that has ever existed before Stoneforge and Jace, Standstill included - old fish UWB with Bob and Finkel, every single mono U, every prison deck, every controlish rock sans-SFM, every Counter-Balance etc... heck, UW control used to kill with Decree and Dragon, that is slow. Even control with goyfs had to be much more careful. Any of those decks were slower either to kill or to take control of the game than it takes now with controller Jace or killer SFM.

By making the opponent worry about SFM on turn 2 is already a freaking fast thing for control to do. In all history of magic, during the first 4 turns you would only worry about sticking your own threats agains control, never worring about their proactive plays, because there was none from their part.

Really, that's how I remember it and how I take control as an archetype so of course I might be misunterstanding or forgetting something.

[Moondancerbb]

Every other control deck that has ever existed before Stoneforge and Jace, Standstill included - old fish UWB with Bob and Finkel, every single mono U, every prison deck, every controlish rock sans-SFM, every Counter-Balance etc... heck, UW control used to kill with Decree and Dragon, that is slow. Even control with goyfs had to be much more careful. Any of those decks were slower either to kill or to take control of the game than it takes now with controller Jace or killer SFM.

By making the opponent worry about SFM on turn 2 is already a freaking fast thing for control to do. In all history of magic, during the first 4 turns you would only worry about sticking your own threats agains control, never worring about their proactive plays, because there was none from their part.

Really, that's how I remember it and how I take control as an archetype so of course I might be misunterstanding or forgetting something.

Because static is exactly how we like our game to be. :P With new printings new innovations and more cards coming down into the eternal formats then ever before its still the most exciting format. The pivotal turn in legacy is turn three. There are decks that can go off earlier but usually have a high amount of variance or can be hated out with a proper sideboard.

The simple fact that we often see 5 to 7 arch types in top 9's and around 12 in top 16 tells me its a pretty healthy format.

[caiomarcos]

Because static is exactly how we like our game to be. :P With new printings new innovations and more cards coming down into the eternal formats then ever before its still the most exciting format. The pivotal turn in legacy is turn three. There are decks that can go off earlier but usually have a high amount of variance or can be hated out with a proper sideboard.

The simple fact that we often see 5 to 7 arch types in top 9's and around 12 in top 16 tells me its a pretty healthy format.

I agree. I was just arguing that the format is faster now.
I admit that I miss true control decks a bit, but that does not mean that the format is worse or less healthy now than it was when we had monoU with Rainbow Efreet.

[Vacrix]

You're saying that powercreep gave control decks better tools to become FASTER. Legacy has always been fast, but barring Flash stupidity, I believe it had never been as fast as it is now.

Maybe combo is not as fast, but control is much faster now.
IDK Enchantress seems pretty good against the DTB right now. That and 43 Lands.... Barring Sneak/Show of course. I've seen plenty of games like this go to time. Thats not fast, its slow. It really just depends on the matchup. Now we have a bunch of decks that can protect their combo with Force of Will. So naturally, there are matchups that end pretty quickly. When I go to tournaments though, its not like everyone is finishing before time with 15 minutes to spare. In a vacuum, these decks are faster. When they run into disruption, removal, post-board hate, or an even matchup, things aren't quite as fast. I'd say games still take about the same amount of time from what I've seen.

Also, Legacy could be way faster. We've had combo winters before and Zoo dominated metagames. Right now 7 out of 8 DTB play blue. Granted they can close on your life total quickly now because of Delver but I've seen plenty of non-combo games go to time because there are better cards around nowadays for creating more attrition situations.

[dahcmai]

I do miss the fundamental turn being turn 4. Moat was good times if anything.

It does feel a little fast to me, but I can live with it, if they keep making things to fill the niches like Terminus.