So who uses Underground Sea?

[Jacemindbreak]

That said, why in the world is it still so expensive?

[Koby]

Vintage
Combo
Reanimator
BUG / Team America

It's always been the most valueable dual, and it's not surprise that it continues to be so for Eternal formats.

[Viridia]

You know, 90% of the decks in Vintage? Probably ups the price aswell

[mahou_shoujo]

Is it wise to invest? I can't sea the price dropping anytime soon (or ever, for that matter).

[Awaclus]

Is it wise to invest? I can't sea the price dropping anytime soon (or ever, for that matter).
I think it's a pretty safe investment if you're going to play with it, but there are cards that are going up in value faster than UGS if you're just trying to make some profit.

[Lord Seth]

Is it wise to invest? I can't sea the price dropping anytime soon (or ever, for that matter).It is on the Reserved List. Granted, Wizards could always say "screw the Reserved List, we want money" though someone did tell me that they're likely to stick to it because some foreign countries have goofy laws that would actually make them get in legal trouble if they went back on it. Not sure how true that is, but it does make it less likely they'd be reprinted.

[Machahiko]

Is it wise to invest? I can't sea the price dropping anytime soon (or ever, for that matter).

If I could, I would bayou one. Too bad that I cant sea it happening anytime soon.

[csy]

if you think you're investing then dont buy revised seas. Buy FBB or Beta. If you think you're buying a card to play magic with buy Revised duals :D

[dontbiteitholmes]

Underground Sea will always be the most expensive dual land because Blue/Black will always be the best combo colors and the kids love combos.

[thefringthing]

The same reason Juzam Djinn costs more than a dollar.

[nedleeds]

It is on the Reserved List. Granted, Wizards could always say "screw the Reserved List, we want money" though someone did tell me that they're likely to stick to it because some foreign countries have goofy laws that would actually make them get in legal trouble if they went back on it. Not sure how true that is, but it does make it less likely they'd be reprinted.

Wet Swamp
Basic Land - Swamp, Island

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Underground Sea will always be the most expensive dual land because Blue/Black will always be the best combo colors and the kids love combos.


It's always been the most valueable dual, and it's not surprise that it continues to be so for Eternal formats.



I think this answers the question; expectations. Underground Sea is the most expensive dual still because everyone knows Underground Sea is the most expensive dual. It's possible to see a significant drop in its price if this changes.

[majikal]

Honestly I'd be perfectly fine with slightly reworded m10 duals.

Dread Pirates' Hideaway

Land - Island Swamp

Dread Pirates' Hideaway enters the battlefield tapped unless you control another Island or Swamp.

[csy]

you mean... strictly worse shock lands.

[nedleeds]

Honestly I'd be perfectly fine with slightly reworded m10 duals.

Dread Pirates' Hideaway

Land - Island Swamp

Dread Pirates' Hideaway enters the battlefield tapped unless you control another Island or Swamp.

people have talked for years about either this ....

Captain Black Scrotum's Dread Cave of Wet Peat
Legendary Land - Island Swamp

or

Melted Caribou Turd Field
Snow Land - Island Swamp

[nedleeds]

you mean... strictly worse shock lands.

strictly unless you are at 2 or 1 and need the mana and have a swamp or island

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think this answers the question; expectations. Underground Sea is the most expensive dual still because everyone knows Underground Sea is the most expensive dual. It's possible to see a significant drop in its price if this changes.

Nah I disagree.

I think the allure of Blue Black is the same as it's always been.

You KNOW that almost no matter what there will be a playable Blue/Black combo deck, almost without fail. Blue gives you filter, black gives you rits, discard, and tutors. In Vintage Blue/Black is also usually the best control colors because blue gives counters and power and black gives tutors, confidant, and discard.

Given any random timeframe in eternal formats I think Blue/Black is the least likely color combination to be useless and the most likely color to have an OP combo deck. I don't think there's been a time in the past 10 years when a blue/black deck wasn't tier 1 in either vintage or legacy. Something you can't say about any other color.

[Koby]

Piggybacking on holmes' -

Vintage power balance (via Duals)
Underground Sea - 80% of Drain decks
Tropical Island - the other 20%
Volcanic Island - splash for Artifact hate, or combo pieces.
Tundra - Bomberman? Landstill? Bant? These are tier 2.

Legacy power balance (via Duals)
Underground Sea - Combo, Reanimator, Deed-decks
Tundra - UW X-Control, Bant (favored over Trop due to StP)
Tropical Island - RUG / Bant (Trop/Tundra are really close in power/price point)
Volcanic Island - RUG, some combo

The price of these duals is more or less in line with their effective power in each of the Eternal formats. USea is casting the best and most powerful spells a majority of the time.

[nedleeds]

Piggybacking on Koby' -



To further elaborate. Let us use pictures.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Rj9cBfYXPDg/T-jG9F67WvI/AAAAAAAAAao/bfMaP6BuOcI/s1600/IMAG0147.jpg

[Koby]

/thread.

[rxavage]

I need to buy P9 so bad.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Nah I disagree.

I think the allure of Blue Black is the same as it's always been.

You KNOW that almost no matter what there will be a playable Blue/Black combo deck, almost without fail. Blue gives you filter, black gives you rits, discard, and tutors. In Vintage Blue/Black is also usually the best control colors because blue gives counters and power and black gives tutors, confidant, and discard.

Given any random timeframe in eternal formats I think Blue/Black is the least likely color combination to be useless and the most likely color to have an OP combo deck. I don't think there's been a time in the past 10 years when a blue/black deck wasn't tier 1 in either vintage or legacy. Something you can't say about any other color.

The flaw with this is that Vintage is basically irrelevant next to Legacy. Vintage is a much, much smaller format. And in Legacy blue/black has rarely been the most powerful color combination. While blue has certainly been the dominant color for the majority of Legacy's history, the times when black was second have been very minimal. In fact the only one I can really think of is during the brief Flash era.

Rather, black is often the least powerful color by most measurements, certainly by the number of top placements it puts up. And it rarely gets better than 4th. Underground Sea is pretty clearly the least useful blue dual in Legacy right now, for instance.

[majikal]

you mean... strictly worse shock lands.
They're only worse if you run them out there with no other lands on the board. You can easily get around this by, you know, fetching basics. Turn 2 and on, as long as you have a basic land or another one of these in play, it's functionally identical to an original dual.

[KobeBryan]

To further elaborate. Let us use pictures.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Rj9cBfYXPDg/T-jG9F67WvI/AAAAAAAAAao/bfMaP6BuOcI/s1600/IMAG0147.jpg

This may be true, but look at how small the vintage market is compared to legacy.

Legacy probably takes up 98% of the duals compared to vintage. And underground sea is probably the least played blue dual in the format.

[Dark Ritual]

I use it quite often, casting brainstorm and dark ritual is great.

Sure in terms of numbers u. sea is used the least out of the blue duals at least, but that's because it's often a 2 of in combo decks. I personally never use 3 in combo decks unless said combo deck is reanimator.

The reason u. sea is the highest priced dual is because of its iconic status. When I think of dual lands the first blue one I think of is u. sea. And no matter what environment you're playing in, playing a deck with underground seas is typically a solid choice.

[nedleeds]

I hate WotC for not making awesome black cards anymore ... Griselbrand doesn't count ... he's a blue card. It's like Necropotence, Dark Confidant and Tendrils have just scarred them for life ... while all these disgusting blue flying Wild Nacatl's, absurd planeswalkers, absurd counter magic (Flusterstorm, MM) just fly out of R and D.

Phyrexian Obliterator is pushing the envelope for them in black these days ... bunch of SJF's as Jesse the Body once said.

[rxavage]

Slinging Underground Sea makes you a sexual tyrannosaurus.

[Solaran_X]

To further elaborate. Let us use pictures.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Rj9cBfYXPDg/T-jG9F67WvI/AAAAAAAAAao/bfMaP6BuOcI/s1600/IMAG0147.jpg
You forgot Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

[Asthereal]

I use Sea a lot.
It's in all of my Storm decks (ANT, TES and Doomsday), my Team America and BUG Control. The last one I rarely play, but I always have one of the others ready to play.

Right now my most used u-Dual is Tropical Island though. I play a lot of Bant, Tempo and NOPRO, and always have my Trops in full use. Still, since Storm is usually the major combo deck out there, and arguably the best choice to play, my guess is Sea will hold it's value (or become even more rediculously expensive) in the near future.

[Technics]

It's basic economics. Vintage used to dictate the price, and USea became the most expensive then. (Look at Goblin Welder 5-7 years ago).

Now if I paid 100 bucks for my Sea, and people are willing to pay 100 bucks for Sea (cause they expect it to be worth that) why would i sell it for less?

It's the same reason Cursed Scroll is still $10 card. Is it as played a Top? No, but 6 years ago, everyone needed a playset for Extended. I remember trying to get them cheap when they rotated, but unless a card is GROSSLY inflated they lose value VERY slow. People are just not willing to part with them less that 0.x% less than they paid.

(See Jace, Goyf, Scroll, Piledriver, Welder etc.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's basic economics. Vintage used to dictate the price, and USea became the most expensive then. (Look at Goblin Welder 5-7 years ago).

Now if I paid 100 bucks for my Sea, and people are willing to pay 100 bucks for Sea (cause they expect it to be worth that) why would i sell it for less?

It's the same reason Cursed Scroll is still $10 card. Is it as played a Top? No, but 6 years ago, everyone needed a playset for Extended. I remember trying to get them cheap when they rotated, but unless a card is GROSSLY inflated they lose value VERY slow. People are just not willing to part with them less that 0.x% less than they paid.

(See Jace, Goyf, Scroll, Piledriver, Welder etc.)

I don't know if downward nominal wage rigidity counts as "basic economics."

[dontbiteitholmes]

I don't know if downward nominal wage rigidity counts as "basic economics."

You are saying U Sea is the most expensive because it has always been the most expensive and people are stupid so it will always be the most expensive.

I agree that people are stupid, but that's not why U Sea is the most expensive.

U Sea is and always will be the best dual.

In vintage U Sea is dominant. No need to debate this.

In Legacy U Sea is the best combo dual land and very solid in control or aggro control. 1/2 of the cards banned in Legacy so far were because of UB decks and if I told everyone "So there's this deck that is so broken in Legacy in 2 years it gets a card banned guess 2 colors that are in it and I'll give you $1000." Everyone is going to guess UB.

In Casual if you want to rape your stupid friend's pet decks you want UB combo.

So to recap. UB goes in many Combo, control, and aggro control decks in Legacy. UB are the go to colors in Vintage and always will be. UB owns casual if you are kitchen table (also EDH).

Just because UB isn't the best color combo now doesn't mean UB isn't the best dual land.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You are saying U Sea is the most expensive because it has always been the most expensive and people are stupid so it will always be the most expensive.

I agree that people are stupid, but that's not why U Sea is the most expensive.

Not exactly. People behaving in ways that may not seem perfectly rational isn't the same as people being stupid.


U Sea is and always will be the best dual.

This sounds like a religious mantra.


In vintage U Sea is dominant. No need to debate this.

In Legacy U Sea is the best combo dual land and very solid in control or aggro control. 1/2 of the cards banned in Legacy so far were because of UB decks and if I told everyone "So there's this deck that is so broken in Legacy in 2 years it gets a card banned guess 2 colors that are in it and I'll give you $1000." Everyone is going to guess UB.

In Casual if you want to rape your stupid friend's pet decks you want UB combo.

Vintage is irrelevant to the overall price structure (at Vintage's peak popularity but before the rise of Legacy, dual prices were still in the $10-25 range.) in Legacy every other blue dual is more useful and more used, and Mystical Tutor was banned because of a brain fart and not actual power so the argument you have is that Hulk-Flash was really good. Okay. That's a pretty shitty argument on the merits for Underground Sea being in greater demand in Legacy than the duals that currently see much greater play, and have for years.

Also casual doesn't drive dual prices. Maybe EDH does but I don't know if anyone can address if UB is dominant in EDH groups. I suspect not.


Just because UB isn't the best color combo now doesn't mean UB isn't the best dual land.

It's difficult to think by what other merit we could judge what the best dual land is.

[Kich867]

One of the few times I agree with IBA O_O;;. It's really not the best dual and it's perceived status as the best will perpetuate it's price to reflect that. I mean shit look at Goyf. He's by far not the best creature in the format and he's still $100, few other creatures can even come close to costing half of that and most of them are more useful or better.

[dontbiteitholmes]

One of the few times I agree with IBA O_O;;. It's really not the best dual and it's perceived status as the best will perpetuate it's price to reflect that. I mean shit look at Goyf. He's by far not the best creature in the format and he's still $100, few other creatures can even come close to costing half of that and most of them are more useful or better.

Goyf is so high because of Modern though.


It's difficult to think by what other merit we could judge what the best dual land is.
It's proven itself the most useful over time.

U Sea. - Best in Vintage, best in EDH.

In Legacy goes in Combo, Aggro control, and Control decks (only Volc really comes close in this aspect)
Most likely to end up in a broken combo deck.

I don't see a compelling reason for any other dual land to cost more.

[joemauer]

Underground Sea is the best dual.

In Legacy, all the blue duals are about the same in power and usefulness. This waxes and wanes, but generally this is true. All the blue duals are the best duals in Legacy. So Underground Sea is in the top five(usually tied) for Legacy's best dual lands.

In Vintage it is the best dual, possibly will be forever too.

So if we have a dual land that obviously is the best then what happens? That is right. The horders and speculators come out in droves and snag up the best land because every eternal format needs lands.

[Koby]

he horders and speculators come out in droves and snag up the best land because every eternal format needs lands.

Lies! Belcher needs no land!

[lavafrogg]

When did goyf stop being the best creature? Easily splash able, no further commitment needed other than 1G.

As for the underground sea question, the blue duals are the best in the format due to brainstorm and force of will being blue. As soon as they print another OP black card with a low cc underground sea will be the best in legacy, but it casts brainstorm and ritual/duress, what more do you need in vintage/legacy combo?

[dontbiteitholmes]

When did goyf stop being the best creature? Easily splash able, no further commitment needed other than 1G.

As for the underground sea question, the blue duals are the best in the format due to brainstorm and force of will being blue. As soon as they print another OP black card with a low cc underground sea will be the best in legacy, but it casts brainstorm and ritual/duress, what more do you need in vintage/legacy combo?

When Goyf first came out it was by far the best creature ever.
The next closest contender wasn't even close.

Now adays Goyf has a lot of competition in the top tier. Cards like SFM, Ooze, Delver, Snapper, ect. have creeped up the power level of creatures. Now Goyf may still be king in some decks but he loses to Snapper and Mystic in control and Ooze in midrange and is probably even at best with Delver in tempo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Underground Sea is the best dual.

In Legacy, all the blue duals are about the same in power and usefulness. This waxes and wanes, but generally this is true. All the blue duals are the best duals in Legacy. So Underground Sea is in the top five(usually tied) for Legacy's best dual lands.

In Vintage it is the best dual, possibly will be forever too.

So if we have a dual land that obviously is the best then what happens? That is right. The horders and speculators come out in droves and snag up the best land because every eternal format needs lands.

You seem to for some reason think that horders and speculators (and generally, the market,) can't act on a perception that doesn't match reality.

All the blue duals aren't the same power and usefulness in Legacy. Do I have to trot out the charts? I mean I'm not getting new ones but I've done this dance before.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18629-Big-Pile-of-Numbers-Color-penetration-in-Legacy&highlight=

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22582-A-brief-but-instructive-analysis-of-Brainstorm-s-performance-in-SCG-Opens&highlight=

[dontbiteitholmes]

You seem to for some reason think that horders and speculators (and generally, the market,) can't act on a perception that doesn't match reality.

All the blue duals aren't the same power and usefulness in Legacy. Do I have to trot out the charts? I mean I'm not getting new ones but I've done this dance before.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18629-Big-Pile-of-Numbers-Color-penetration-in-Legacy&highlight=

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22582-A-brief-but-instructive-analysis-of-Brainstorm-s-performance-in-SCG-Opens&highlight=

So your contention is that I'm guessing Trop should be the most expensive dual land because it makes up the largest % of top 8 decks?

My point is that Underground Sea goes in a wider variety of decks. Combo, Control, Aggro-Control. Trop doesn't go in Combo usually and any control deck with Trop is going to have an equal of greater number of Seas.

If as a legacy player you have played combo, control, and aggro control in the past 5 years there's probably a 90% chance you've played with Seas.

At any given event I wouldn't doubt there are a greater number of Trops or Tundras at any given time but if you polled every Legacy player who's been playing for more than 3 years I'd bet more have played with Seas than any other dual.

[rxavage]

Goyf is the only reason Trops have seen so much play. I would imagine GZS will help that as well in the future if more badass simic critters see print.

[DragoFireheart]

You'd think Trop or Tundra would be worth more. Is Underground Sea just more rare or something? Is it truly due to the fact that Seas fit in more decks? Or is IBA correct in that buyers are the ones artificially inflating its value?

[xfxf]

When coming back to Magic to play Legacy I was looking at the possible decks I could build and was trying to find the most feasible approach at gathering a flexible yet strong enough card pool. After a lot of reading and online testing the first purchase I made was Underground Seas and Polluted Deltas because I figured I could build Team America, BUG Landstill, Storm decks, Reanimator decks with that manabase and if one of them got pushed out of the meta for some reason I thought I could always be safe with another UB deck.

Having said that I think Volcanic Islands are probably as strong as Underground Seas in Legacy because they are being used in the top decks and in multiple architectures consistently - NO RUG, RUG Tempo, Sneak&Show, UR Delver, 1ofs in Storm combo and Hive Mind decks. There are also negligible splashes in UW control decks sometimes.

In Legacy I would rate Tropical Islands as the third blue dual because its mostly in BUG and RUG shells, not always as 3-4 (think of Team America and BUG control decks), there are 2-3 in Bant decks and a negligible splash in the combo decks. In contrast to the UB, UR colors green is usually the splash or coupled with white as the main color so the UG dual isn't as pivotal as the U.Sea and Volcanic imo.

As for Tundras, they are always used in UW control decks. And a few in Bant style decks which are not extremely popular. There is always a UW deck in the format but with Tundras you don't have that many options in terms of porting your manabase to a different deck. You will stay in the same/very similar archetype whereas U.Sea could be used in completely different beasts (BUG Control 4-of, Reanimator 4-of).

There is also the Vintage factor. Even though Vintage is much smaller compared to Legacy it's reputation has an effect on the perception of cards imo. The fact that it's super important in Vintage will make it always a safe choice, increasing the perceived value of the card.

[Snap_Keep]

You'd think Trop or Tundra would be worth more. Is Underground Sea just more rare or something? Is it truly due to the fact that Seas fit in more decks? Or is IBA correct in that buyers are the ones artificially inflating its value?

Why not read the thread and find out for yourself? People have put forth their own opinions, between those suggestions and your own experience playing Legacy you should be able to form your own opinion about why Sea costs the most out of all the duals.

[lordofthepit]

Underground Sea is currently the worst (least played) blue dual in Legacy, but it is dominant in other formats, and price history definitely affects perception.

As another interesting example, Show and Tell and Sneak Attack are both rares from the same set. Show and Tell sees much more play than Sneak Attack, since it sees play as a 4-of in essentially any Sneak Attack deck, as well as seeing play in other decks. But for a long time, Sneak Attack was the more expensive card.

[Sloshthedark]

I have 3 beautiful trops and no goyfs, only deck where I could have played them were Lands =/ so I play the shit out of Volcs and Seas all the year; and yes storm is still good:cool:

[Vicar in a tutu]

Underground Sea is the most $$$ dual land because blue and black are the two coolest colours in magic. Also the artwork is amazing. (Price memory is a third and not so sexy reason.)

[dontbiteitholmes]

To sum it up one last time why I think it's the most expensive

U Sea goes in a variety of Control, Aggro Control, and Combo decks often as a 4x.
Trop goes in The same control decks as U Sea and Aggro Control, but rarely to never Combo.
Tundra goes in very few tempo decks (none of which are very popular right now) and Control.
Volcanic is the closest to U Sea currently and goes in the same variety of decks.

If you don't want to play an Aggro Control deck with Goyf, Lands, or Bug you don't need Trops.
If you don't want to play Bant or UWx Mystic (Or UW tempo lol) you don't need Tundra.
If you don't want to play RUG, RUB, some form of Urx control, TES, or Sneak & Show you don't need volcanic.
But if you don't have Seas that cuts you off from Team America, BUG Control, ANT, Reanimator, Hive Mind, Esper Control, Pretty much any combo deck with Dark Rits, Ub Merfolk (Was a thing at one point), and pretty much any Vintage deck that runs duals except fish and ur Landstill (which is at least somewhat relevant see: Europe still exists).

Seas just fit in more decks. I've played my Trops one time in the past year in a deck without Seas. Played Bug Control, Hive Mind, Team America, UBG Explorers (nic fit hybrid with Intuition), and 4 Horseman with Seas that I can remember, probably more and Rug delver without Oh and and 1x in my current Belcher hybrid if that counts.

[dahcmai]

I always knocked it up to the fact that UB constantly has some sort of presence in the meta. Over the years there's always been combo making it useful there. BUG control is a hell of a fun deck that a lot of people refuse to put down and that kind of thing.

Now if you keep that in mind, let's look at the rest of them.


Tundra. The "mom control" decks rarely showed their faces and typically aren't played much since they tend to go to time a lot anyway. They are hugely meta dependent also. Stoneforge decks use it, but that is fairly recent really.

Volcanic - Typically used as a one of fetch target in a lot of decks. It's been a long time since we had a true UR deck roaming around.

Tropical - Threshold variants use it. They rise and fall with the times.

Savannah - Let's face it, this land sucked until Maverick became a deck worth playing. Enchantress people's are out there, but there's not "that" many who have a fondness for the deck.

Taiga - Goblins and Zoo pretty much are the only ones who use this one. yeah, there's a couple less played decks that do, but for the most part it's only used by these two and even Goblins can go RB or mono-r sometimes. It's hard to count Belchers one of usage.


Bayou, Badlands, Scrubland - All played just a smattering. Usually as splashes or in a deck that doesn't see much play aside from pet decks or some rogue creation.

Plateau - It took Land tax getting unbanned to even have this one played in anything short of Cat Zoo. Poor Plateau.


So Undergrounds really have been useful no matter what constantly over the years for combo alone. It's never wavered, dipped in popularity, or had any reason to say it might be useless due to a changing meta. When combo got hurt by tons of CB, BUG control and Team America got useful. When those two aren't good, combo makes it's resurgence as always.

This is an oversimplification, but it makes sense when you break it down a little.

[FieryBalrog]

True for Vintage, less true for Legacy. Trop's seen a lot more play than U Sea over the past few years, and maybe Tundra too.

It's Vintage that takes the price to the next level. In Legacy BUG is a thing, but it's not that prevalent, and it's mainly combo that makes use of Sea.


Nah I disagree.

I think the allure of Blue Black is the same as it's always been.

You KNOW that almost no matter what there will be a playable Blue/Black combo deck, almost without fail. Blue gives you filter, black gives you rits, discard, and tutors. In Vintage Blue/Black is also usually the best control colors because blue gives counters and power and black gives tutors, confidant, and discard.

Given any random timeframe in eternal formats I think Blue/Black is the least likely color combination to be useless and the most likely color to have an OP combo deck. I don't think there's been a time in the past 10 years when a blue/black deck wasn't tier 1 in either vintage or legacy. Something you can't say about any other color.

[Vicar in a tutu]

True for Vintage, less true for Legacy. Trop's seen a lot more play than U Sea over the past few years, and maybe Tundra too.

It's Vintage that takes the price to the next level. In Legacy BUG is a thing, but it's not that prevalent, and it's mainly combo that makes use of Sea.
Don't forget Esperblade, it's widely regarded as one of the three-four Tier 1 decks in legacy.

[ReinVos]

Sea had a headstart as it was by far the most popular dual in Vintage's heyday. It was way more expensive than the other blue-based duals. When Legacy became widely played, all good duals increased equally % wise.