Cheats at SCG Detroit

[zulander]

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/322528713?t=8h12m05s


Do you see the cheat?

For reference, the opponent played clique turn before putting batterskull on bottom, then this guy cliques to kill his opponents clique.

And then he cheats! Best clique ever!

[GnuHouse]

I'm surprised it even got caught. The commentators didn't even notice it, it was the hive mind (aka Twitter) who caught it and brought it to SCG's attention.

At first, I thought that maybe it was accidental, but when you watch it again and again you can tell it's something he practiced a few times. That and, at that level (I know, it's SCG, but still it's higher than your typical FNM), he should know what he's doing and should have told a judge if he realized error.

[Solaran_X]

My friend was in 9th place when this happened. So she ends up getting the 8th place price because of Eldon's cheat...but didn't get to participate in the Top 8.

[CorpT]

My friend was in 9th place when this happened. So she ends up getting the 8th place price because of Eldon's cheat...but didn't get to participate in the Top 8.

That does suck she didn't get to participate, but it's also a pretty impressive response from the judging staff. They were awfully quick to indict and DQ.

[Water_Wizard]

Well, they do have it on video and after the whole Alex-what's-his-face shenanigans last year, they probably feel the whole legitimacy of the SCG circuit is at stake.

Unless you think it was an innocent mistake?

Personally, I haven't watch the video yet (it won't come through at work).

[ScatmanX]

It took me 3 times to finally saw what happened.
Contragts to scg to the measures taken.

[CorpT]

Well, they do have it on video and after the whole Alex-what's-his-face shenanigans last year, they probably feel the whole legitimacy of the SCG circuit is at stake.

Unless you think it was an innocent mistake?

Personally, I haven't watch the video yet (it won't come through at work).

It seems too well done to be a mistake.

The whole thing is documented here: http://blog.andreashubert.com/?p=22

Calling for a lifetime ban (like that blog post does) is ridiculous though.

[Leftconsin]

It boggles my mind how some people have the steel balls to pull a stunt like that off under a camera they know is there.

[Water_Wizard]

It boggles my mind how some people have the steel balls to pull a stunt like that off under a camera they know is there.

Agreed.

If they gave Alex B 18 months (and he cheated his way to a series championship, defrauding who knows how many people along the way AND he had a documented history of cheating and prior complaints), I cannot see this guy's ban being any longer than that (unless there's been a change in policy).

Thanks for the link! It does a very good job explaining it all :)

[Solaran_X]

Calling for a lifetime ban (like that blog post does) is ridiculous though.
Why is it ridiculous? I think all cheaters should get a lifetime ban as long as it can be proven the cheat was intentional and malicious. We don't need those kind of people playing this game - and knowing that being caught cheating would result in a lifetime ban would probably make people immediately reconsidering cheating.

[Valtrix]

It boggles my mind how some people have the steel balls to pull a stunt like that off under a camera they know is there.

I think that it's just that they're stupid and desperate to win. The people watching these videos catch so many cheats, as we have seen several times in the past.

[Esper3k]

Does anyone have a link to official action that SCG has taken?

[CorpT]

Why is it ridiculous? I think all cheaters should get a lifetime ban as long as it can be proven the cheat was intentional and malicious. We don't need those kind of people playing this game - and knowing that being caught cheating would result in a lifetime ban would probably make people immediately reconsidering cheating.

I don't want cheaters any where near the game either. But it's ridiculous because:

1) It is way out of line for what the DCI has done in the past.
2) It really isn't fair to ban someone for a lifetime for one action. We don't do that for most actual crimes. I'm not sure why we would do it for this when there is less of a justice system and more of a judge/jury/executioner.

[CorpT]

Does anyone have a link to official action that SCG has taken?

This is the best that there is I believe:
https://twitter.com/mtgRikipedia/status/217350099943161857
https://twitter.com/mtgRikipedia/status/217073801459011584
https://twitter.com/mtgRikipedia/status/217074365790035968

[Solaran_X]

Does anyone have a link to official action that SCG has taken?
Shit...Jon Eldon is still listed in the "Top 8 Profiles" section of the SCG: Detroit Legacy coverage. They haven't taken him down yet, or even added a notation that he was disqualified for cheating.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/923_legacy_open_top_8_profiles.html

[GnuHouse]

I think there is a bigger issue about how to deal with cheaters who are captured on camera. How do you deal with them in an effective and efficient manner? Given the result, where someone was denied a top 8 spot, it's obvious that this wasn't dealt with in an efficient manner.

We now have an ecosystem where big events are simulcast online, complete with the realtime feedback of twitter, you have thousands of "judges" critiquing the match. How should TOs, Judges, and WOTC handle these things?

[Water_Wizard]

How do you find the top 8 profiles before they've posted them on the coverage archives?

I'm sure they will edit it to "Top 7" as soon as the coverage archive guy calls the webpage guy. I will be fixed within a day or two.

[Mark Sun]

I think Starcity handled it very well. Twitter did its part, I retweeted the initial video find along with many folks, and they DQ'ed the guy after they found out + reviewed the tape. All of it was done in a timely manner.

The head judge announced his findings after we saw the first round of Top 8.

[apistat_commander]

Samuel Friedman is a regular at my LGS and he mentioned that his opponent asked "where are the cameras pointing?" immediately before the match. Funny how sketchy that sounds in retrospect.

[Esper3k]

This is the best that there is I believe:
https://twitter.com/mtgRikipedia/status/217350099943161857
https://twitter.com/mtgRikipedia/status/217073801459011584
https://twitter.com/mtgRikipedia/status/217074365790035968

Thanks!

For me, I think cheating should be dealt with harshly once it has been verified. I think cheating is extremely bad for the game's image and it's good for WoTC / TO's to aggressively seek out and deal with cheaters.

[menace13]

I think there is a bigger issue about how to deal with cheaters who are captured on camera. How do you deal with them in an effective and efficient manner? Given the result, where someone was denied a top 8 spot, it's obvious that this wasn't dealt with in an efficient manner.

We now have an ecosystem where big events are simulcast online, complete with the realtime feedback of twitter, you have thousands of "judges" critiquing the match. How should TOs, Judges, and WOTC handle these things?

Handling that is up to WotC, sure something will be done given how public it is.
I feel it can only get bigger and better with more social media use and live streaming. It makes cheating harder or impossible if on camera and adds more ways for the community to meet and stay in contact. Also some get to build their legend every week under all those watchful eyes and fingers.

[csy]

player ban/suspension is the same time as B/R updates right? thats really shame if it still is.

[Zakman86]

player ban/suspension is the same time as B/R updates right? thats really shame if it still is.

Player suspensions are handled by the Judge system. They do take time, though.

[dontbiteitholmes]

http://i.imgur.com/hJZkO.png

[Water_Wizard]

What was the point of this cheat? He already had the match won! He didn't even need to cheat?!?

Especially if you have SFM in hand, you know SFM will resolve, and you will be able to resolve the same Batterskull a turn later. His opponent is at 10 life. If he casts the SFM in his hand, he's going to beat for 4 next turn. He knows his opponent is holding a Flusterstorm. Even if his opponent draws a sweeper (Deed), he can still hardcast Batterskull. You'll also playing for top 8 and you won game 1.

What was the point of this cheat? He was over 97%+ to win that game without cheating.

It must be something similar to Winona Ryder shoplifting, he did it for the rush.

[sdematt]

I didn't see the cheat the first time, since I didn't know what had happened before. Then, I found out and looked the second time. That's blatant cheating. I'm glad he was caught. He should be banned for a while, for sure.

-Matt

[catmint]

I agree.... he must have done it for the kicks or because he has some kind of mental desease (like Kleptomania). It was an easy win without the cheat. And he is for sure a "professional" and by that I mean he has either practiced a ton and/or has a magician background.

No matter if he is sick or funny....you can safely assume that he was fooling a lot of people along his career and I do not understand why they should let him play again after 1 year ban. He might move to a different city where nobody knows him and keep fooling some kids/players again until he is caught.

With the existence of Magic Online I do not understand why people should not receive a lifetime ban for real tournaments after demonstrating their cruel professional cheating skills. I don't think you should punish someone that hard if you are not sure that he made it on purpose, but this kind of intentional high skill cheating (like bertoncini) should be punished much harder.

EDIT: What is important.
You can really see how is sliding his permanents and his gy and library, which looks sloppy and odd and is probably a tool to hide his cheats. If you see some of your opponents doing it, keep your eyes open. Altough I doubt you can see the cheat while you focus on gameplay decisions,... Can you ask a judge to join to look over the guys hands, cards & actions because you think he is cheating?

[ACME_Myst]

And he is for sure a "professional" and by that I mean he has either practiced a ton and/or has a magician background.


Just wanted to chime in here. I'd very much doubt that he has a serious magician background. I have quite a lot of experience with card magic (of the prestidigitation kind) myself, and assuming he knew the camera was overhead, there is no way you would attempt a move like this. True, the misdirection with the rest of his cards might fool an opponent who's mostly concentrated on the game itself, but there are tons of moves that any halfway competent card magician could use here instead. In particular, ones that don't leave the card openly on the board.
Having said that, he did indeed appear to have practiced this move a lot. The fluidity and near perfect timing surely give that feeling, anyway.

But, yeah. Way to spoil the game for yourself (not to mention, others). If you're going to cheat, at least don't make previous opponents feel bad by getting caught :P

[Edit] <- Just to ensure that that last remark doesn't come off wrong, let me emphasize the j/k here.

[cdr]

What was the point of this cheat? He already had the match won! He didn't even need to cheat?!?

Chronic cheaters cheat impulsively - this has been the case for every one I've encountered. They can't not cheat, even if it's a feature match at a Pro Tour. A few want to see just how much they can get away with, but most are just incapable of controlling themselves no matter the situation. Just like chronic thieves (none of those around MTG tournaments, right?) or liars or pyromaniacs. This is also why they get caught - the naturals get away with it 95% of the time, but they can't stop and someone notices eventually.

I'm sure the gentlemen in question had some practice - probably from doing similar things before in matches - but not as much as some people are assuming.

Wizards reserves lifetime bans for assault/threats of only. Cheaters are given a second chance - if I recall, Olivier Ruel has been suspended at least twice for cheating and he's now in the HOF. Bob Maher rigged his way to the PT and repented and is in the HOF. 18 months like Bertocini got is also enough for a lot of people to quit the game - some never come back.

[walker]

I was sick sunday so i watched most of the coverage. There were nearly 3,000 viewers watching the coverage at the time of the cheat and the cheat was caught immediately. It was definitely reported and being investigated before the top 8 started. So I'm wondering why didn't they postpone the top 8 a few minutes and let the person who was in 9th place before the DQ play in the top 8 (I understand he was DQ'd in the top 8 but before his match started). It seems like it would have been a more elegant solution.

[nedleeds]

What benefit to anyone involved in Magic is there in allowing this dude to ever play sanctioned Magic again?

He probably cheated many people that day, and has been cheating people at his FLGS various other events.

DCI sanctioned MTG is not a right.

Who cares if this guy never plays again except him?

WotC stands to lose the revenue from whatever he buys, so what.

Lifetime bans for obvious intentional cheating will do nothing but discourage the next guy.

Again, he adds no value. So why allow him to play again? Nothing changes for the better by allowing him back.

[dontbiteitholmes]

What benefit to anyone involved in Magic is there in allowing this dude to ever play sanctioned Magic again?

He probably cheated many people that day, and has been cheating people at his FLGS various other events.

DCI sanctioned MTG is not a right.

Who cares if this guy never plays again except him?

WotC stands to lose the revenue from whatever he buys, so what.

Lifetime bans for obvious intentional cheating will do nothing but discourage the next guy.

Again, he adds no value. So why allow him to play again? Nothing changes for the better by allowing him back.

A year to 18 month ban is usually enough to make people quit. People who cheat deserve a second chance but I think people who are caught cheating intentionally on camera should be forced to apologize before they are allowed to play again. Lifetime bans should be reserved for people who assault, threaten, steal, ect.

Theft should be an automatic 5 year ban.

[Water_Wizard]

People who cheat deserve a second chance but I think people who are caught cheating intentionally on camera should be forced to apologize before they are allowed to play again.

Theft should be an automatic 5 year ban.

Does a forced apology really serve the point?

At least there are legal remedies against theft (prosecution, a criminal record, and fines/restitution/jail time). I wonder if there are similar legal remedies for cheating? I imagine if a person cheated in a casino, there would be some legal remedies the casino could pursue. Because prizes are at issue, cheating is a form of theft ('stealing' the prizes from the 'rightful' owner.)

@cdr - you are correct, it is a sickness, a rush, a habit. A sad habit.

[JDK]

Why is it ridiculous? I think all cheaters should get a lifetime ban as long as it can be proven the cheat was intentional and malicious. We don't need those kind of people playing this game - and knowing that being caught cheating would result in a lifetime ban would probably make people immediately reconsidering cheating.

If I can prove that you've cheated in a single test at university/school, would you like to be banned from finishing your degree? Companies don't need this kind of people, you know. I am sure you would learn harder, if you'd know cheating results in a lifetime ban. :rolleyes:

On a more serious note: If you realize your opponent is playing sloppy, kindly ask him to do every action one after another (especially when it comes to brainstorming and tapping lands - count the cards and open lands!) and pay attention to both of his hands. I know this might be hard, because you have to keep in mind all the game state related things too, but you will get used to it.

[Esper3k]

If I can prove that you've cheated in a single test at university/school, would you like to be banned from finishing your degree? Companies don't need this kind of people, you know. I am sure you would learn harder, if you'd know cheating results in a lifetime ban. :rolleyes:

Many universities do have an academic honesty policy that generally says you can get expelled for cheating...

[Darkenslight]

If I can prove that you've cheated in a single test at university/school, would you like to be banned from finishing your degree? Companies don't need this kind of people, you know. I am sure you would learn harder, if you'd know cheating results in a lifetime ban. :rolleyes:

On a more serious note: If you realize your opponent is playing sloppy, kindly ask him to do every action one after another (especially when it comes to brainstorming and tapping lands - count the cards and open lands!) and pay attention to both of his hands. I know this might be hard, because you have to keep in mind all the game state related things too, but you will get used to it.

Uhh, the School example is bad because that's what usually happens. However, you're given the right to appeal.

[JDK]

Do they prohibit you from finishing your degree at all or just at the specific university? I haven't heard of any school that expels people for cheating once. My bad, if they actually do. Anyway, my point was not, that they don't do that stuff, but if he would like to be given a second chance.

[rxavage]

The appeals process is a joke. I was expelled from university for defending myself. Cheating on a test, or in any form, isn't something to be proud of it really attests to your character. And to answer your question, yes and no. Being expelled means you cannot attain your degree from that university but credits do transfer, thank god.

[Malakai]

Calling for a lifetime ban (like that blog post does) is ridiculous though.

Why would you EVER ban a cheater for a length of time less than lifetime? Cheaters are toxic to the community. By banning them forever, you lose one player nobody wanted anyway, but you gain the trust of every legitimate player you want to keep.

This guy didn't just cheat in one match; the very way he plays is designed to allow him to cheat whenever an opportunity presents itself. He more than likely cheats in every tournament, and in several rounds of those tournaments.

Leniency for cheaters is a mistake*, and I personally doubt the intentions of anyone who would promote it.

*In this context. I'm not promoting the death penalty or anything.

[Malakai]

People who cheat deserve a second chance...

Lifetime bans should be reserved for people who assault, threaten, steal, ect.

1) Why do they deserve a second chance? They intentionally violated the sanctity of the game and of the competition. There is no reason to expect that a) this is the first time, or b) that they won't do it again.

2) If a person loses because of a cheater, and that results in them losing out on prize money, have they not been stolen from?

I believe all of the offenses you listed should be lifetime bans. These people make up at most 1% of the total player population. Eliminating them all does not significantly affect WotC's sales or tournament attendance. (And that's not considering the honest players they will hold onto by cracking down on cheaters/thieves/etc.)

[citanul]

The problem is that every case is different. A lot of players have been banned for cheating, including some professional players. Remi Fortier adjusted a match result during Nationals and got a year ban. Saito was considered to be stalling and so on, eventually resulting in a DQ and a year and half ban. He has also been banned because he offered a top8 competitor who had to leave a split, which was not allowed at the time.

Do they deserve a lifetime ban? I have filled in a wrong result slip by accident, signed it and handed it to my opponent (winner hands it in). He signed, went to the judge station and luckily noticed. What if an ill tempered judge thought I was cheating?

I also wish to see this player be banned but he does deserve another chance in years to come. Just like most prisoners eventually become free people again.

[Koby]

Cheating is based upon intent; otherwise its a mistake. DCI doesn't ban/DQ people for honest mistakes.

Joe Elden noticed and CAST the Batterskull; knowing full well it wasn't supposed to be there. If it was a mistake, then he would have alerted a judge and it would be only a warning.

[dontbiteitholmes]

People who cheat deserve a second chance because people grow up and change.

If someone got caught cheating at Magic in 1999 under a "ban for life" policy they would not be able to play today if they wanted to. They could have been 15 years old when they cheated and now they would be pushing 30. Does that seem logical to you?

If someone is caught cheating on camera where they can't deny it they should be forced to apologize. The reason being, if you can't admit you cheated and that it was wrong, you haven't changed and you shouldn't be allowed to play again. Case in point Alex Bertincinni. Caught cheating multiple times on camera, still refuses to accept he was cheating, has no reason to ever admit it. At this rate I don't see any reason to believe he won't cheat again when he returns to the game after 18 months off though he probably won't be dumb enough to do it in front of cameras again. If he admitted he cheated I would feel a lot differently.

[JDK]

I agree, but "force" is the wrong word though. They shouldn't be given a second chance, if they don't apologize. It's not forced, they have the choice.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I agree, but "force" is the wrong word though. They shouldn't be given a second chance, if they don't apologize. It's not forced, they have the choice.

Well you can't "force" someone to do anything if you're the DCI but if someone who cheated and was caught red-handed doesn't admit they cheated and it was wrong they shouldn't be able to play again until they do whether their ban is up or not.

[JDK]

That's what I just said. :D

[Mark Sun]

I don't buy it, but it should at least be out there.

Written by the brother of the accused: http://mtgelden.wordpress.com/2012/06/27/jon-elden-does-not-deserve-a-lifetime-ban-from-magic/

[Kich867]

People who cheat deserve a second chance because people grow up and change.

If someone got caught cheating at Magic in 1999 under a "ban for life" policy they would not be able to play today if they wanted to. They could have been 15 years old when they cheated and now they would be pushing 30. Does that seem logical to you?

If someone is caught cheating on camera where they can't deny it they should be forced to apologize. The reason being, if you can't admit you cheated and that it was wrong, you haven't changed and you shouldn't be allowed to play again. Case in point Alex Bertincinni. Caught cheating multiple times on camera, still refuses to accept he was cheating, has no reason to ever admit it. At this rate I don't see any reason to believe he won't cheat again when he returns to the game after 18 months off though he probably won't be dumb enough to do it in front of cameras again. If he admitted he cheated I would feel a lot differently.

Telling someone to apologize to fix it is essentially doing nothing. It's not that hard to lie and be convincing. Admitting guilt doesn't change what they did. I'd be more impressed, like say in Starcraft 2, where two players were caught rigging a game, the other player prohibited himself, by his own volition, from playing in any tournaments for a year. This comes as a severe deficit to his own incomes; some players who are performing poorly even tell their employers to not pay them because they aren't performing to their highest level.

Magic isn't nearly as structured and most people seem like neck-beards, I feel like long-term bans are the only useful tool given few pro-players would ever actually own up and proactively punish themselves for their actions.

[Water_Wizard]

Thanks Mark. I could see how nervousness and fatigue could take their toll. Additionally, I could see how once he realized he made the mistake, he hesitated and played the Batterskull rather than informing the judge and taking the game loss. With 15 mins left in the round and the game virtually wrapped up, I could see how one feels he/she deserved to win it, so why let a little "technicality" trip you up?

This guy is young. It could have been the pressure. Anyway, he didn't handle it correctly. It's now in the hands of the DCI.

[Kich867]

Thanks Mark. I could see how nervousness and fatigue could take their toll. Additionally, I could see how once he realized he made the mistake, he hesitated and played the Batterskull rather than informing the judge and taking the game loss. With 15 mins left in the round and the game virtually wrapped up, I could see how one feels he/she deserved to win it, so why let a little "technicality" trip you up?

This guy is young. It could have been the pressure. Anyway, he didn't handle it correctly. It's now in the hands of the DCI.

He very obviously cheated and intended to. You don't pass your deck to someone and deliberately leave a card out and then draw it instead of the top card of your deck. It's virtually impossible to fuck that up unintentionally.

[dontbiteitholmes]

That's what I just said. :D

Well it's more or less what I said too, but at any rate looks like we're on the same page.



Telling someone to apologize to fix it is essentially doing nothing. It's not that hard to lie and be convincing. Admitting guilt doesn't change what they did. I'd be more impressed, like say in Starcraft 2, where two players were caught rigging a game, the other player prohibited himself, by his own volition, from playing in any tournaments for a year. This comes as a severe deficit to his own incomes; some players who are performing poorly even tell their employers to not pay them because they aren't performing to their highest level.

Magic isn't nearly as structured and most people seem like neck-beards, I feel like long-term bans are the only useful tool given few pro-players would ever actually own up and proactively punish themselves for their actions.

I'm not saying in place of bans require apologies. I'm saying in addition to bans require apologies when the cheat is caught on tape and undeniable. So you would be "banned for 18 months or until you admit to cheating and admit that it was wrong whichever comes LAST." So if you were banned for cheating like Alex where the cheating was on tape and undeniable, no matter what you are banned for 18 months. If by the end of 18 months you can't admit you cheated you can't come back.

Lifetime bans are beyond retarded. I was 17 once. I used to steal shit for stores, just being a dumb ass teenager and mad at the world for all the wrong reasons. Do you think I would still steal something from a store now at 29 years old? If you do you have a lot to learn about growing up. Part of growing up though is making sure people intend to change. If you still can't admit you cheated after you've been caught red handed can we really not expect you to cheat again?

[sdematt]

Let's put it like this. Assuming it was a mistake, here's how it would go with me at the helm.

Me: (shuffle and present, accidentally draw Batterskull as my card for that turn)

Me: This doesn't look right. (Review in mind what just happened)

Me: Judge! I think I screwed something up.

That's how that would go.

-Matt

[phonics]

Let's put it like this. Assuming it was a mistake, here's how it would go with me at the helm.

Me: (shuffle and present, accidentally draw Batterskull as my card for that turn)

Me: This doesn't look right. (Review in mind what just happened)

Me: Judge! I think I screwed something up.

That's how that would go.

-Matt

This is what I am thinking, he could have checked to see what that odd card on the table was (it was out of place compared to the orientation of the cards that were in his hand) then go "hold up I didn't pick up my whole deck" or "this isn't supposed to be in my hand." His hand movements show he was aware of the odd card while his opponent was shuffling. Sure he may be tired and nervous but there were numerous glaring opportunities that had to be ignored before he did what he did. Overall the whole this basically makes no sense, he had no reason to cheat but it happened, there were many opportunities for him to identify something was amiss but he failed to do so regardless (if he really was innocent).

[Tacosnape]

The problem with second chancing cheaters is this - The system currently rewards cheaters in the long run. You're actually better off doing it, reaping your rewards, and taking your punishment in the long run.

Ask yourself this - How many of you can do in 2 years of competitive magic what Maher, Ruel, Bertoncini, or whoever you want to single out can do in 6 months of rigging their way to victory and 18 months of not playing? The answer is a very small select few. And this would be assuming that the ratio here was correct - More often, the cheaters get away with it for years before getting caught.

I agree with CDR's assessment of the compulsion in every respect but one - I don't think they all get caught. At all. There was a guy who I used to play that I know cheated. Everybody knew he cheated. He'd even brag, without admitting specific uses, about all the different techniques he knew. We couldn't catch him. Ever.

I'm willing to bet that at the very least, somewhere between a quarter and a third of the revered top tier players in the competitive magic community have cheated when the opportunity safely presented itself. It's an unfortunate aspect of the game - You play worse when you worry about looking for it. The game's less fun when you worry about looking for it. And the game's less fun when you get cheated and can't see it, either.

Unfortunately, this is a rampant thing in magic. In our Commander community at our store, for example, we have two players that cheat almost endlessly. One draws extra cards, and one's a blatant deck stacker. Neither one of them are very good at what they do, but they have an aura of confidence about it. They're convinced nobody can see the shit they do. They really do believe they can get away with anything. Even if you're staring straight at them. And they do this in games where there is absolutely not a damn thing at stake.

However, I think skill level varies at it. What if Bertoncini wasn't a great cheater? What if there are several who are way, way better at it who never get caught?

I'm not going to lie. I'm not a fantastic magic player. I think I'm a much better deckbuilder than player, and when I'm relaxed I play amazing. But while I'm capable of deep and complex reasoning, I make a ton of mistakes under pressure. Too many to ever be great, given that I have neither the time or drive to dedicate to reaching the next level anymore. Every SCG I played in except one I finished X-3.

And the sad part is? I just know there are people there just like me. Just at my skill level. Or worse. Who are getting X-2's and top 8's. Because they can and do cheat. And the system rewards them for doing it. And not getting caught. I think some never do.

So I think an 18-month suspension basically says this: "Hey, we caught you. Go spend a year and a half perfecting and honing your craft, so next time, you'll be sharp enough at cheating that we won't catch you." So if you ask me? Lifetime.

[Water_Wizard]

Tacosnape, good analysis.

I think it needs the addition of one point - the psychological toll it takes on the cheater. Even 'winning' big events by cheating, can one really feel good about oneself? The cheating comes from a place of low self-esteem, of "I'm not good enough to win, but I want to prove to others that I'm a winner, so I do whatever it takes to 'win'." No matter how many T8's, trophies, prize money, etc., someone has, I don't think he/she can feel good about him/herself when he/she goes to bed at night. All that cheating and winning builds up more pressure to cheat and win. It ends up becoming a vicious cycle, like any addiction, and back fires. The irony is that if half of these "cheaters" spent as much time developing their Magic games, they would probably do alright.

The other issue with "rampant" cheating is that it becomes like steroids in baseball- it appears to become necessary to stay competitive. "If he's going to do it, then I have to do it to stay competitive" becomes the mentality. Once you view your opponents as cheaters, it becomes much easier, even necessary, to justify cheating for oneself.

While it's true that the best criminals never get caught, I think those are the criminals who suffer the most.

[lsho]

Come on folks. We all know cheating is bad yadda yadda yadda. But have you actually bothered to read his brothers statement?

If I review the facts:

- He would have won even without the BSkull.
- He almost never plays big tournaments at all. Never top 8'ed.
- His FNM record is so-so
- His plays were super fast like trying to gain some time for game 3.

I'd have to say that I really think that it might just have been an honest mistake of someone who is inexperienced with these kind of situations. Knowing myself, I would also have been really really nervous, knowing that I have a shot at my first top 8 after not really playing competitively at all. Being nervous and under quite some stress makes us vulnerable to mental mishaps like this one.

I know you must be those ice cold chilled people who can bring out their best game when top 8 is on the line without getting nervous because you've been there but hey... I've not been there and I know that I get very nervous when people watch me play. I get so nervous that I do unenforced misplays, forget drawing cards at the draw step, etc ... because I can't really handle the pressure. People around me distract me up to the point where I can't really think straight anymore. Ask me what my hand was a turn after I played something: I would not be able to tell you.

But hey: Magic is basically still a game for geeks, nerds and social outcasts. At least it always kind of was a safe haven. Being really nervous is one of the conditions you might turn to playing MtG because playing your game calms you. That's the case for me. But when I play the game for others who watch ... I will do stupid things.

Can you really rule out that this guy was just too nervous to notice? I can't because it could have happened to me as well in a tight situation and people who know me know that I am one of the most kind guys to play against and that I would never ever bend the rules in order to benefit from them. Not a chance.

Actually, well, I kinda exagerated... I used to be this guy who plays really sloppy when watched but I am trying my best to turn it off and I have it under control... kinda. But I still remember how it was and I know that it could have happened to me as well.

I really hope he gets banned for half a year or something because it might be the appropriate time for him to think about getting his nerves under control but I don't think anything beyond that is reasonable at all. This kid plays GPs etc. once a year. Don't take that from him by banning him for something that could have been a nervous mistake.

[Whippoorwill]

But have you actually bothered to read his brothers statement?


If you noticed an extra card in your hand, what would you do? Your only choices are to call a judge, or try to get away with it. What Jon does is completely different. He immediately plays the Batterskull. As soon as he untaps from Sword of Feast and Famine, he plays it, exposing his error to the table judge, the commentators, and thousands of online viewers. He doesn’t wait to draw a few cards or shuffle his library. He plays it as soon as he can.

I fail to see how what he did was different from trying to get away with it. The correct response to noticing the error would have been what Matt posted - telling the Judge before continuing and accepting whatever consequences there may be. But since he didn't, he deserves whatever he has coming to him regardless of whether it was accidental or not.

[lsho]

He still might not have noticed it.

Seriously, what are we becoming? Isn't our cultural heritage (more or less) teaching us the principle of reasonable doubt?

I think the video strongly suggests it might have been on purpose. But then again, his tournament records speak against it - at least for me.

If he would have noticed, he could have told the judge but he might not have noticed. We cannot assume what was in his head at that point, so everything we actually talk about is speculation.

[Phoenix Ignition]

He still might not have noticed it.

Seriously, what are we becoming? Isn't our cultural heritage (more or less) teaching us the principle of reasonable doubt?

You haven't been on the internet for very long, have you? All people ever do is cry to burn at the stake random people from time to time.

Get comfy, you'll be here for a while.

[Darkenslight]

Come on folks. We all know cheating is bad yadda yadda yadda. But have you actually bothered to read his brothers statement?

If I review the facts:

- He would have won even without the BSkull.
- He almost never plays big tournaments at all. Never top 8'ed.
- His FNM record is so-so
- His plays were super fast like trying to gain some time for game 3.

I'd have to say that I really think that it might just have been an honest mistake of someone who is inexperienced with these kind of situations. Knowing myself, I would also have been really really nervous, knowing that I have a shot at my first top 8 after not really playing competitively at all. Being nervous and under quite some stress makes us vulnerable to mental mishaps like this one.

I know you must be those ice cold chilled people who can bring out their best game when top 8 is on the line without getting nervous because you've been there but hey... I've not been there and I know that I get very nervous when people watch me play. I get so nervous that I do unenforced misplays, forget drawing cards at the draw step, etc ... because I can't really handle the pressure. People around me distract me up to the point where I can't really think straight anymore. Ask me what my hand was a turn after I played something: I would not be able to tell you.

But hey: Magic is basically still a game for geeks, nerds and social outcasts. At least it always kind of was a safe haven. Being really nervous is one of the conditions you might turn to playing MtG because playing your game calms you. That's the case for me. But when I play the game for others who watch ... I will do stupid things.

Can you really rule out that this guy was just too nervous to notice? I can't because it could have happened to me as well in a tight situation and people who know me know that I am one of the most kind guys to play against and that I would never ever bend the rules in order to benefit from them. Not a chance.

Actually, well, I kinda exagerated... I used to be this guy who plays really sloppy when watched but I am trying my best to turn it off and I have it under control... kinda. But I still remember how it was and I know that it could have happened to me as well.

I really hope he gets banned for half a year or something because it might be the appropriate time for him to think about getting his nerves under control but I don't think anything beyond that is reasonable at all. This kid plays GPs etc. once a year. Don't take that from him by banning him for something that could have been a nervous mistake.

It's a really sketchy thing: possible, but even so, that's pretty much a DQ'able offewnse anyway, and only the HJ has the capacity to downgrade the penalty. If it is indeed extenuating circumstances, then it's possible (though unlikely) that the ban is also downgraded.

I suspect that a part of the clamour for a lifetime ban is down to events at other recent SCG series (especially Bertoncini)

[Hardcore]

so, the desire to be nice to people versus the desire to keep magic clean.
I say let the axe fall! These people can always start play pokemon, or grow up get a job and a GF.
Also, cheating is often a state of mind where you delude yourself that what you are doing is not wrong.
Exposing these offenders and punish them can help them change this view of themselves.
Yes, being lenient is not always helpful.

btw, never forget that tournaments is there ONLY to make money for wizards.
It is their private enterprise and you got all the rights paying the fee gives you.
Those of the law does not apply.

[nedleeds]

His brother is full of shit.

[xfxf]

According to his brother the guy notices his mistake and goes "holy shit let me play this Batterskull right away which shouldn't be in my hand, yay for freecards!" and this is an act of good faith, attempting to get caught by the Judge by letting it out all to see... :confused:
Here's a tip, if you want to get caught for a mistake you noticed, you don't tap mana for the card - you just reveal it and say "oops, Judge!"

Worst defense ever.

Edit: It's defenses like these which make me join the burn at the stake crowd. I can symphatize with dontbiteitholmes' suggestion for apologies. Coming out to say "Sorry guys I'm a deliberate asshole." is a hard thing to do because it will hang over your head from that point on even if you weren't sincere with the apology.

[Tacosnape]

Look. I've been in jail because a mob cried for me to be arrested, despite committing absolutely no crime whatsoever. So I'm the LAST person on this earth who will jump on the Burn at the Stake bandwagon.

But this is a cheat. Period. Watch the video. There is absolutely 0% chance this isn't a cheat. It's as blatant as a chainsaw to the face.

And when you've played magic for 17 years, you learn one thing - Cheating is everywhere. People do it when there's absolutely nothing to gain. People do it constantly. And for every time I've been the victim of it and noticed, I'm willing to bet there's three times I didn't notice.

[Tammit67]

His opponent doesn't bother cutting his deck after shuffling for the past 5 turns, neither does he present it.
Then as the batterskull is finding a way into his hand, he presents it for the first cut in forever?

Bullshit

[jrw1985]

Look. I've been in jail because a mob cried for me to be arrested, despite committing absolutely no crime whatsoever.

Birmingham sounds nice.

[sdematt]

That's EXACTLY what I was going to comment on. Taco, do the chainsaw to the face comments have anything to do with your being arrested?

-Matt

[Rune]

I don't believe sliding the Batterskull into his hand was done on purpose. He basically has the game locked up (and he knows his opponent is just dead because of what Clique revealed), so there's nothing to gain from doing it. If his supposed sleight of hand trick is the actual cheat, it's possibly one of the worst and dumbest in MtG history. I believe this was a legitimate mistake, possibly caused by the stressful situation he was in. We've seen many exampes of players whose brains just seem to melt under the lights of the cameras.

The place where he might have cheated was when he saw the Batterskull back in his hand and should have called a judge, but perhaps intentionally avoided doing so (maybe fearing a game loss in a match he already had in the bag).

[cdr]

The place where he might have cheated was when he saw the Batterskull back in his hand and should have called a judge, but perhaps intentionally avoided doing so (maybe fearing a game loss in a match he already had in the bag).

If there's something to take away from this, don't do that. The tournament rules have been designed for the past 5+ years to make it more beneficial to call a judge than not. 99% of the time if you fuck up and call a judge as soon as you realize it, the worst thing you get is a warning - and much worse if you don't.

Accidentally screwing up and then trying to hide it for whatever reason is absolutely cheating.

[B.C.]

I don't believe sliding the Batterskull into his hand was done on purpose... I believe this was a legitimate mistake, possibly caused by the stressful situation he was in.

It is my opinion that you are either completely naive or absolutely delusional. That was a massive and ballsy cheat.

[dontbiteitholmes]

His brother is full of shit.

His brother is delusional. Of course little bro wants to believe big bro when he says he doesn't cheat. The only alternative is to believe your big brother is not only a cheater but also willing to lie about it to his own brother.

[hilariousjack]

I just finished reading his own account of what happened: http://mtgelden.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/the-batterskull-cheat-unlocked/

Even though I still believe it wasn't an accident, it is helpful to get his story. And I will admit I started zoning out and skipped past the poker/chess parts. I didn't really care to follow that.

[Rune]

It is my opinion that you are either completely naive or absolutely delusional. That was a massive and ballsy cheat.

If you examine the facts, it makes no sense to believe he actually cheated when putting the Batterskull into his hand. The only way you can argue this is cheating is by saying he's a compulsive cheater who desperately wanted to get caught, DQ'd from the tournament and put out of his cheating misery forever. Which, of course, makes no damn sense. The supposed cheat was so bad that Adrian Sullivan, who normally has no clue about anything that's going on, managed to detect it.

The real question is whether or not he knew the game state was incorrect when he saw the Batterskull in his hand. THIS is where I think you can argue he cheated, but it's not as clear-cut a case as most people make out to be. I have definitely seen equally strange things happen on camera before, simply because some people's minds crumble under the pressure.

[jrw1985]

I just finished reading his own account of what happened: http://mtgelden.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/the-batterskull-cheat-unlocked/

Even though I still believe it wasn't an accident, it is helpful to get his story. And I will admit I started zoning out and skipped past the poker/chess parts. I didn't really care to follow that.

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks

[wcm8]

After reading the rebuttals, to me it sounds like it was an honest-to-god dumb mistake, and not some sort of elaborately-devised sleight of hand. Occam's razor and so forth.

[Water_Wizard]

Agreed. I think he's just a nervous, tired dude who made a mistake.

However, as kikoo points out, the question is if he realized his 'mistake' after he found the Batterskull in his hand. Maybe he just didn't think it through fully (putting the Batterskull into play).

[rxavage]

Are people really gullible enough to believe his lies?

[dontbiteitholmes]

I don't buy this "it could happen to anyone" bullshit.

I've been playing for a long time. I understand shit happens and at times we all do stuff that would be cheating if it was intentional.

Examples, if you've been playing long enough you've probably done one if not all of these.
1: Kept track of wrong life totals.
2: Cast a spell you didn't have right color mana for.
3: Had your opponent make a mistake in your favor and not called him on it.
4: Played two lands in a turn on accident.

Shit like that is understandable.

Seriously though, has anyone here ever shuffled and presented their entire library minus one card, then accidently drawn that card, then had that card be a one of in their deck that was impossible to have in hand and not noticed? I seriously doubt it.

To take his obvious bullshit story at face value you have to believe he missed shuffling in his Batterskull in his deck and left it out and didn't notice, then accidently put the card into his hand, then didn't notice it was impossible for him to have the Batterskull in hand and played it. Not to mention his hand happened to be in the perfect spot for this "happy accident" to take place. I'm not buying that shit for a hot second and luckily the judge didn't either (and I doubt the DCI will). Look at his mannerisms earlier in the match compared to right after he makes the move, he looks extremely tense immediately after he does the swipe.

If I did one of the things in my examples in a turn it's be easy to understand it was an accident, but if I played two lands, then cast a spell I didn't have mana for, then didn't mark down life loss correctly in the same turn I don't think anyone here would except "oops, I made a booboo, sorrry..." as an excuse. That's basically what this guy is asking us to believe.

[android]

I might buy into the "maybe it was an accident", but then there's the nudge. That seals it for me. Zero tolerance for deliberate cheating. Let the argument focus on determining if the cheating was deliberate. In most cases, it's pretty obvious (especially when the cameras are rolling).

It's funny because my friends and I have had discussions about doping in professional sports. I'm of the opinion that there should just be two leagues, two sets of records, two paths for the athletes. One for a clean game and one for doping. I think the same thing should be set up for cheaters.

Frankly, I don't want to play with cheaters at all. I don't want to have to worry about whether or not they will seek an opportunity to cheat during our match. It's bad enough that the whole psychological edge aspect of play has entered the competitive arena. I don't want to lose or make a mistake because my opponent is 'legally' pressuring or distracting me. I want to play a pure game where luck and play skill are all I need to worry about; not milking the clock, unwarranted judge calls, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind if my opponent tries the old untapped island bluff.

[cdr]

...

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/06/rockstar-condemns-max-payne-3-cheaters-to-play-only-against-each-other/

[Humphrey]

If the people think your guilty, then you are. No matter what. They will find evidence in every action you did and do.


I say, lets burn that cheating scum. He doesnt deserve to live any longer.

Honestly, let that kid alone. Maybe he cheated on intention, maybe not. He lost his price and gets a huge shitstorm at the moment. That should be lesson enough.

[android]

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/06/rockstar-condemns-max-payne-3-cheaters-to-play-only-against-each-other/

Awesome!

[Esper3k]

DCI has an intent component to cheating. Mere sloppy play or making a mistake is not cheating.

When you look at your hand, see an extra card that shouldn't be there, then make the decision not to tell a judge - you have now entered the realm of cheating.

[lordofthepit]

After reading both sides of the story, I don't think the cheating was premeditated. I don't really buy the fact that he "blacked out" about the fact that he shouldn't have Batterskull in his hand, and therefore neglected to tell a judge, but it's certainly possible. I think it was more likely he got nervous and tried to play it off as though he didn't do anything wrong. I don't think he planned to cheat the Batterskull into his hand all along.

However, I am more inclined to completely believe Elden's story (including the "black out") than the opposing narrative that he was a masterful cheat who planned all the mannerisms in an attempt to deceive his opponent. It would take a lot of skill to pull that off, and I highly doubt someone so skilled in that regard would have the balls (and stupidity) to pull the cheat off on camera in a feature match when he was already extremely likely to win the game, especially since the extra Stoneforge Mystic in hand would have rendered it completely unnecessary.

[Dia_Bot]

To be honest, if you play magic the one thing you are constantly aware of is your hand and what you can do with the cards in your hand.
I for one believe there are only 2 possible scenarios in this story. Either he cheated most likely for the thrill of getting away with it (yes, it is possible) or he accidentally picked up the batterskull and decided not to tell the judge because he didn't want to lose a game he really should have won anyway.

Still I'm wondering if you notice the batterskull being in your hand before you draw a card for your turn and you would call a judge. Shouldn't you only receive a mild penalty since the whole situation can be reversed by shuffling the batterskull back into your deck and drawing a card. I'm not a judge but this would mean that if the second scenario occured (which I think is most likely) the damage could easily have been avoided.

[Darkenslight]

After reading both sides of the story, I don't think the cheating was premeditated. I don't really buy the fact that he "blacked out" about the fact that he shouldn't have Batterskull in his hand, and therefore neglected to tell a judge, but it's certainly possible. I think it was more likely he got nervous and tried to play it off as though he didn't do anything wrong. I don't think he planned to cheat the Batterskull into his hand all along.

However, I am more inclined to completely believe Elden's story (including the "black out") than the opposing narrative that he was a masterful cheat who planned all the mannerisms in an attempt to deceive his opponent. It would take a lot of skill to pull that off, and I highly doubt someone so skilled in that regard would have the balls (and stupidity) to pull the cheat off on camera in a feature match when he was already extremely likely to win the game, especially since the extra Stoneforge Mystic in hand would have rendered it completely unnecessary.

Again, under the rules, it's still a DQ under Cheating, because Elden didn't declare it. Now, that penalty can be downgraded to a Match Loss by the Head Judge, but either way Elden wouldn't have been in the Top 8.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, it's the whole not telling a judge thing that turns it into cheating. Everything up to that point could conceivably be a mistake, but it's hard not to notice the extra card of the 1-of card in your deck in your hand...