Esper Delver (UWB Tempo) [Archive]

Q 221

06-28-2012, 04:33 PM

I like the look of that list. Maybe with some tweaking to the creature base and meta-ing the equipment, it could be pretty awesome. I think that maybe I would tweak it so that it was the following:

Land (19)
2x Island
4x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland

Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (22)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
3x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshares

Creature (11)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Stoneforge Mystic

Sorcery (5)
3x Lingering Souls
2x Ponder

This seems fairly powerful, while keeping to a tempo oriented shell. It also seems like it could play a long game with the Batterskull/other equipment and the Lingering Souls. I really don't know if SFM is the way that I would want this deck to be going, but it does seem pretty powerful. Thoughts on the revision?

As much as I like the ability to run Batterskull for the long game, this really doesn't seem to be the deck for it. Unlike the classic Stoneblade lists, you really don't have a chance of hardcasting it, forcing you to rely on Stoneforge activation to drop it. And practically any deck can shut off that play, leaving you with a useless 5-drop stranded in your hand. It ends up being a highly conditional threat, not something you necessarily want in a deck that needs to play pretty tightly.

That said, the Bazaar of Moxen list menace posted is kind of an effective argument that it does indeed belong in this deck. I'm surprised Back to Basics didn't make it into that list's SB: it's a really powerful card in certain matchups, especially since the deck isn't particularly color-intensive.

Sturtzilla

06-10-2013, 09:20 AM

I know this thread hasn't seen much activity recently but there was an interesting configuration that Top 16ed the most recent SCG Open. Check out the list!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56520

Praeses

06-10-2013, 06:39 PM

I think its better to stick to the geist of st. traft version on the starcity legacy open

The ability to stifle the angel's exile trigger is very powerful.

I also would recommend deathrites to help your acceleration. Turn two geist is awesome.

Sturtzilla

02-13-2014, 05:01 PM

This thread hasn't seen much activity lately but I would to point out that this deck might be able to be a thing with the new arrival of True-Name Nemesis. Especially with the Stoneforge package. Maybe something like:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

It could basically be a UW Tempo shell with Confidant and some black cards in the sideboard. I think the numbers would need some dialing in, but it looks pretty legit to me. Thoughts?

Juice11

02-13-2014, 10:51 PM

I've been running a UW version that I've been working on, there's no thread so I figured I'd post it here.

4 Delver of secrets
4 TNN/Geist of saint traft
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Stifle
2 Spell pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze

3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding tarn
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra

sideboard

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Meddling Mage
2 Submerge
1 Spell pierce
2 Vendilon clique
2 rest in peace
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Manriki Gusari
1 Flusterstorm

I'm not sure weather I like 4 TNN or 4 Geists or a 2/2 split. I have also tried the 3 TNN/1 Geist split. I feel like stifle gets a lot worse if geist is not in there. So, in a full TNN list, I would probably trade the 3 stifles for a spell snare, a MB SoFaI, and a 4th Ponder.

Sturtzilla

02-14-2014, 11:24 AM

I've been running a UW version that I've been working on, there's no thread so I figured I'd post it here.

I'm not sure weather I like 4 TNN or 4 Geists or a 2/2 split. I have also tried the 3 TNN/1 Geist split. I feel like stifle gets a lot worse if geist is not in there. So, in a full TNN list, I would probably trade the 3 stifles for a spell snare, a MB SoFaI, and a 4th Ponder.

So there is a UW Tempo thread. You can find it here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15562-Deck-UW-Tempo

As for the list, I think it looks like a pretty good starting point. I think I would do some minor tweaks to make it a bit more tempo oriented.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra

Sideboard
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Rest in Peace
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Flusterstorm

Basically I don't like the maindeck Supreme Verdicts. It is possible that shaving a land would be good too. 19 lands with 8 cantrips seems totally fine to me. Some other things to consider depending on your meta game might be Holy Light for opposing Nemeses, Sapphire Charm for all of these Lands decks making 20/20 tokens and opposing Batterskulls. 4 Meddling Mage might be a bit heavy, but I have found that playing one is good, but two basically shuts most opponents down.

Water_Wizard

02-14-2014, 02:19 PM

I've been giving a lot of thought to this type of deck. Over in the Deathblade thread (DTB), there was discussion of a Deathblade version w/ Delver.

I've toyed a lot with the creature combination and I considered the following:

Delver of Secrets
Deathrite Shaman
Snapcaster Mage
Stoneforge Mystic
Dark Confidant
True-Name Nemesis
Vendilion Clique

I ended up settling on:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle

I decided not to include Stoneforge Mystics because SFM's require at least 2 main deck equipment, which lowered the spell count (and ability to flip Delver) down to 24, which isn't horrible with 8 cantrips, but also isn't ideal (I consider 28 spells ideal and I'm running 26 spells).

Dark Confidant is another consideration and if I were to run Dark Confidant, I would move the main deck Force of Wills to the sideboard.

I really like Snapcaster Mage as it has flash and allows Stifle and Thoughtseize to be replayed. This deck runs 20 lands and wants to hit 3 mana for TTN & V. Clique, so SCM is a good fit. In more tempo-oriented decks, like BUG and RUG (that want to max out at 2 mana and run 18-19 lands), SFM is a bit too slow to compliment their tempo plan.

This deck is highly susceptible to -1/-1 effects like Golgari Charm, but I haven't encountered that yet.

I also considered 2x Liliana in either the Clique or True-Name spots, but I wasn't ready to commit to double-black with only 3 UGS and I did not want to lower the spell count below 26.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Happy Valentine's Day!

bbogdon

02-15-2014, 03:13 PM

Hello all,

I as well have been toying with Esper Delver for some time now and below is my most recent version which led me to a 4-0 finish at my LGS playing against ANT (2-0), Reanimator (2-1), Jund Depths (2-1), Junk (2-0).

With this version I really wanted to focus on a mana denial strategy and decided to go with a package of 4 Stifle, 2 Vindicate and 4 Wasteland, I found it really helped my counters and often turned a Daze or a Pierce into a hard counter as opponents were often tapping out to try to regain board position if I was already ahead. I also chose Geist over TNN as it is a faster clock, less vulnerable to -1/-1 effects and I can also take advantage of Stifle to keep my angel token in play.

The deck features 27 delver flippers which i find has an optimal blind flip rate, and with 7 cantrips i can set it up fairly often if i want. In this brew i also pushed it up to a 20 land count from 19 which i had been running before and had little mana issues and mulled less frequently than before, i find having a full 7 card hand to be pretty important with this deck.

4 Delver of secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Sword to plowshares
4 Stifle
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Flooded Starand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (with rationale)
2 Zealous Persecution (TNN, death and taxes)
2 Rest in Peace (Graveyard decks and RUG)
2 Thoughtseize (its just good)
2 Flusterstorm (storm or vs other blue decks to help in counter wars)
1 Vendilion Clique (show and tell..not much experience using it but I know its good)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (storm, omni-tell - its pretty fun to beat someone to death with this)
1 Humility (show and tell and any of the tribal decks)
1 Enlightened tutor (utility card to get Humility, RIP and canonist)
1 Toxic Deluge (tribal decks and TNN)
1 Supreme Verdict (this is a new edition since i'm up to 4 tundra, not sure if i need it)
1 Sword of Feast and Famine (all-star vs JUNK, JUND and BUG as long as it dodges decay)

Please let me know what you think!

Sturtzilla

02-17-2014, 01:49 PM

Please let me know what you think!

I think the list looks pretty interesting. I find the total of 12 threats with a 2/2 split between Stoneforge Mystic and Geist of Saint Traft hard to reconcile. SFM and GoST are both strong but in their own ways. SFM is a little more midrange oriented while GoST plays more toward an aggressive slant. I really do like the inclusion of Deathrite Shaman and Vindicate. Vindicate give the deck a good way to deal with tough permanents that say Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay cannot take care of. The fact that is ties in well with the Stifle and Wasteland package is also pretty awesome. Deathrite actually makes the casting of Vindicate possible on turn two which is also pretty scary. I think start testing with the creature base as follows:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic

I would also considering trying to cut a land for the 4th Ponder. I have been running a deck with a similar curve for some time and have been liking 18 land. So it is likely that 18-20 are all fine so long as you know the deck.

bbogdon

02-17-2014, 07:46 PM

I think start testing with the creature base as follows:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic

I would also considering trying to cut a land for the 4th Ponder. I have been running a deck with a similar curve for some time and have been liking 18 land. So it is likely that 18-20 are all fine so long as you know the deck.

That was the original creature configuration i came up with when I first played it and found that it was too threat light as it relies so heavily on delver to get through for the whole 20, having the GoST to crash in for 6 a turn vs a deck that doesnt run many/any creatures its a pretty stiff clock esp if i can drop it turn 2 off a deathrite. I also played a 1 TNN 1 GoST variation which worked well since i can have both of them in play. Maybe I'll try that again

As for ponder, I've run only 3 in every variation of the deck that I've tried and haven't felt the need to go up to 4. As I mentioned before I had run 19 lands prior and had some inconsistency issues which led to mulligans that really hurt the deck. On 20, I found that I was getting to the point where I could hard cast force of will, batterskull, sfm + cast jitte more frequently than i was off 19 since i was hitting my land drops pretty much every turn. Maybe this week it will be a different story and I flood out like crazy or get too many 3-4 land openers. Other than that, I'm not too set on cutting anything else form the deck other than spell pierce and running one seems wrong, maybe i cut both and slam in a 3rd vindicate? its probably my favorite card in the deck.

another idea I'm going to test this week is putting in a Karakas main over a tundra or just in the board over the Toxic Deluge. I've had a few matches against reanimator where they drop an Iona on white and all of my removal and threats are shut off. Having an uncounterable answer that will stick since it doesn't run wasteland seems like a good idea, also works well in the show and tell match. I'm leaning towards sideboard for now since having an opener of Wastland, karakas + 5 spells seems really awful.

I will post a tournament report this week after my weekly event on Wednesday,

thanks for the comments!

Sturtzilla

02-18-2014, 10:07 AM

thanks for the comments!

Well building a new and archetype that is competitive is what I am interested in here. It sounds like you are doing well with your list. I am skeptical of GoST as it quickly trades (with Confidant, flipped Delvers, etc.) or just dies (TNN, Goyf, etc.) to many of the creatures in the format. I guess with Karakas you can attack and replay him but this binds up a lot of your mana. I the slow and steady beats of Batterskull seem like that they would be more consistent although a bit slower. I am not a fan of splitting the threats up. At any rate, I am interested in hearing how your next event goes!

Esper3k

02-18-2014, 10:22 AM

I fiddled around with an Esper Delver list in one of our recent local tournaments. It looked great on paper, but it just didn't play out the way I wanted combined with some pretty good topdecks from my opponents.

I essentially just cut the green from the stock Team America lists and shoved white into it:

// Lands
2 [U] Scrubland
3 [R] Underground Sea
2 [U] Tundra
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [ARC] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [ARB] Zealous Persecution

Some thoughts:
-I believe Thoughtseize is needed here over Hymn because unlike Team America, we actually care quite a bit about opposing equipments and don't have Abrupt Decay to deal with it.

-Being able to play Tombstalker and not get Submerged is awesome!

-I love me some Perish and it made me really happy to be able to play it without wrecking myself (yes, yes, DRS dies too).

-Compared to Team America, I really missed the flexibility of Abrupt Decay & Golgari Charm. On top of that, while SFM is awesome, it just isn't the fast clock that Tarmogoyf often is.

bbogdon

02-21-2014, 12:01 AM

I am not a fan of splitting the threats up. At any rate, I am interested in hearing how your next event goes![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE= At any rate, I am interested in hearing how your next event goes![/QUOTE]

Hey everyone,

I went pretty hard this week and played 2 events (tues and wed), although one i wouldn't really call an event since there was only 4 of us, but it was still good testing nonetheless. The other was my regular Wednesday legacy event which had 14 people (fairly low). I was running almost exactly the same list as I was previously except for going with a 1 GoST 1 TNN split in my 3-drop creature slot and putting in a Karakas over a Toxic Deluge in the board.

So on Tuesday I found out my Miracles and Death and taxes matches need some work. Of the 3 other players 2 were on URW Miracles and the other was on death and taxes, my results were as follows Miracles (1-2), DnT (0-5) we had a lot of time when it was Miracles vs. Miracles. Miracles (1-1) I had enough. With Miracles recent performance at the GP, and the following price spikes in the decks staples I have a feeling that i will be seeing it more when I go play in some larger events and ultimately at the Detroit SCG Open which I am working towards.

The miracles matches were extremely grindy as I tried to get a clock out as quickly as possible and try to stop them from setting top-counterbalance-jace all while dodging plows, terminus and REB's after board. All 5 games I was able to hammer them down into at least the ~5 life range and 2 of which I managed to get through on the back of a hard cast batterskull that they couldn't counterbalance, and a quick delver-deathrite tandem cracking for 5 a turn. In the other 3 matches I basically couldn't draw enough answers to their threats and once they setup their counter-top-jace package, theres basically nothing I can do. The sideboard in its current configuration has very little interaction with Miracles and to top it off i straight up forgot to bring my 2 thoughtseizes with me and played a 13 card board. I wish I would have as I think it may be enough to get in for an extra swing if I were able to draw one. As another note, I didn't see a GoST or a TNN in any of the games.

As for the Death and taxes matches I'm going to chalk up a lot of credit to my opponent who was extremely good at playing the deck, I've played it myself (poorly) and against it on several occasions and was really impressed with the way he piloted the deck, playing around daze, baiting out counters and removal, not over committing his board and porting/wasting very well. Of the five games I had him on the ropes once and it slipped away in a top deck battle where he kept vialing in creatures and I drew lands. I was probably also ramming and jamming a bit too hard against him due to frustration and the fact that it was a four person "tournament", I could have done better. Nonetheless I do want to get more practice against this deck and would love to hear some comments on combatting it as I feel (hope) that it shouldn't be a whitewash.

On to Wednesday, I was hoping to avenge my poor showing from the day before and was able to do so. Playing the exact same variation as above (with thoughtseizes this time) I was able to go 3-1, Belcher (2-1), 4c Delver (1-2), Reanimator (2-1), Sneak and Show (2-1)

The Belcher match was quite interesting. Since I didn't know what he was playing game 1 I kept an aggressive hand (which i normally do) with no FoW and sure enough he drew the nuts chrome mox-dark ritual-spirit guide-Belcher-LED-win game. (board in thoughtseize, flusterstorm, clique, plows +something out) Game 2 he mulled to 5 and couldn't get anything going fast enough before i bashed him down with the delver-deathrite tandem and a few counters to stop chrome mox and dark ritual from getting him moving. Game 3 was quite the nail biter, as he fought through double daze-pierce to empty his hand casting belcher with only 1 chrome mox and an empty hand, I managed to draw a pierce for a lotus petal just in time and polished him off with a delver.

My 4c delver opponent was on a BRUG variation with deathrite and bob instead of mongoose, and these matches were EXTREMELY tight, they didnt start the clock and I'm pretty sure we went WAY over time, game 1 we almost emptied both of our libraries in a delver deathrite counter wasteland standoff and he basically got there with bolt. (board in RIP, flusterstorm, sword of F&F - jitte, pierce, something out) Again it was a super grind and I managed to mana deny him to slowly overwhelm him with an array of creatures. Game 3 I'm at 4 he's at 5 I have TNN and GoST in play, and he has a tapped Bob from a swing i let through and a deathrite, i think I'm about to win, swing with everyone he blocks geist with deathrite and 2's me to 2 and abrupt decays my angel token (fow in hand) taking 3 from TNN to go to 2, I pass he flips a ponder off bob to stay at 1 and swing with bob for the win. Yuck

Somehow manage to compose myself after that marathon to take on reanimator (same player and deck as i beat last week) game 1 he quickly gets Elesh into play and I only find one vindicate which is lost in a counter battle. Board in 2 RIP, etutor, 2 flusterstorm - 1 SFM, jitte and 3 plows out) manage to stick a RIP turn 2 after double daze force holds up, drop delver next turn and got most of the way there before casting geist shortly after. Game 3 turn 1 I fetch trop cast deathrite and we both double FoW to make it stick emptying our hands, i proceed to top deck a land and 2 delvers, flip them, keep green open, and get in for the win.

Show and Tell was pretty interesting as well. Game 1 I decide to keep an aggressive hand not knowing what my opponent was playing (he usually doesn't play blue) and he sticks a turn 2 Griselbrand and I scoop since i have no answers. Bring in the sideboard :) (1 Humility, 1 Karakas, 1 Clique, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Etutor - 1 tundra, 1 SFM, 1 Jitte, 3 plow, 2 stifle out) For some reason he doesn't board in his 2 blood moons against me (oops!) and I proceed to wreak havoc on him with thoughtseize, clique-karakas and added counter support to beat him down with delver-deathrite game 2 and SFM-batterskull game 3.

Wow, this getting rather long.

my take-aways quickly, I feel like the deck runs very well against combo, especially post-board. I think it is slightly favoured in the delver mirror with the mana denial package, but goddamn that lightning bolt is good, which makes me want something to that effect. Call me sick, but I think I'm going to try out 2 psi-blasts over pierces main and take them out for flusterstorm when unnecessary, I have had a lot of games slip away where my opponent is able to stabilize and neutralize my threats when they are on life support, also part of me wants to see the look on someones face when i cast it for a win. I understand it is over-costed/bad/"unplayable" but as a mid/late game finisher on colour which i have the mana to cast and usually a counter to back it up, albeit 2 pierces short, Im going to give it a go. Lastly, I think Miracles needs to be addressed and I'm thinking about 1-2 abrupt decays in the sideboard, they don't play waste so I can reliably cast it off 1 trop if not deathrite. Also, I think I will go to 2 TNN as I did have a few situations where Geist dies on the swing/block

Ok, I'm out of gas. interested to hear any comments, questions or suggestions.

TheArchitect

02-23-2014, 05:41 PM

I posted this a while ago in the deathblade thread, probably the wrong place for it.

I took first at a local 5$ event for a box of born of the gods with this list:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate

3 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Daze
4 Force of Will

#60
Sideboard:

1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Disenchant
3 Meddling Mage
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Carry Away

Matches:
2-1 Super Budget Goblins - Lost one game to greed
2-1 Dark Maverick
2-1 Esper Deathblade with Jaces and stuff
2-1 Team America

MD vindicate was bad. I was envisioning vindicating a lot of lilys and basic lands, and I just love vindicate, but it was never really good. PW are not a problem for this deck and wasteland is enough.

Carry away I didnt get to cast, but I unknowingly shuffled it away with a fetch in a board state where it would have won me the game against deathblade.

Pontiff, was just my "fun-of" it should probably be another persecution.

The sideboard was super solid. Boarding against most decks is super easy. Against BUG, on the draw I took out 3 daze for MM and they won me the game. MM naming decay did work against TA.

Relic was also perfect. Its actual graveyard against reanimtor/dredge without neutering DRS completely, and against any goyf or DRS mirror it is amazing. It won me another game against TA. They want to exile your GY with DRS, so you just relic whatever they target and exile them, and then if you fear a goyf or tombstalker, you just nuke the GY without losing a card.

The deck felt very solid and will likely play something more refined in the future.

bbogdon

02-27-2014, 11:00 PM

I am not a fan of splitting the threats up. At any rate, I am interested in hearing how your next event goes!

Ok, I'm out of gas. interested to hear any comments, questions or suggestions.[/QUOTE]

Hey everyone,

Another Wednesday Event in the books, ended up going 2-1 and prize split with my round 4 opponent after having only 2 mins to complete game 3. Results: Jund Depths (2-0) Deadguy ale (0-2) Jund (2-1) Deadguy ale (1-1), putting my recent Wednesday night event streak to 9-2-1, not too shabby.

I'm not going to write 10,000 paragraphs this time. But my main take away again is it seems that the deadguy ale and death and taxes matches are not too favourable. I regretted taking the toxic deluge out of my sideboard, and I will be putting it back in and cutting a zealous persecution. I boarded in abrupt decay in most of my matches to see how it played and I only drew it once and didn't need to cast it as i finished off my Jund opponent with a Clique, I think I'm going to keep it in for the time being as their was 4 Miracles players out of the 30 man event. I'm trying to think what else could be helpful in the 75 to make the death and taxes/dead guy/hate-bear style deck better, thoughts?

Pattycake

03-06-2014, 10:30 AM

I have been considering abusing the two toughness of our creature base and fully utilize toxic deluge. This is the current list I am testing.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

Sideboard:

1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
1 Graffdiggers Cage
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Disenchant
4 Meddling Mage
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Rest in Peace
1 Spell Pierce

I have been piloting UWR delver for awhile so I wanted this deck to have a similar feel. So far I really like this list but haven't had much practice on it.

Final Fortune

03-07-2014, 09:21 AM

I posted this a while ago in the deathblade thread, probably the wrong place for it.

Huh, I was running almost the same list except - Vindicate for + Ponder, why aren't you running Vendilion Clique in any of your SB slots?

TheArchitect

03-11-2014, 11:15 PM

Huh, I was running almost the same list except - Vindicate for + Ponder, why aren't you running Vendilion Clique in any of your SB slots?

I tried 2 clique, it was great, especially against show and tell and miracles. No one in my area plays those decks though. I ultimately put 3 MM (up from 2) and a duress in their slots to be more versatile, coming in agains combo, but also random stuff like Team America (MM) or burn (duress).

bbogdon

04-12-2014, 01:07 AM

Ok, I'm out of gas. interested to hear any comments, questions or suggestions.

Hello again,

I will be going to the Detoit SCG Open next weekend, and this is what I am going to be running. Pretty much the same list as before except I have made some changes to the sideboard. I've also gone up to a 4th deathrite main cutting my delver flip count down to 25 which is probably the bare minimum. The deck still features the 10 piece mana denial package in 4 wasteland 4 stifle and 2 vindicate. Also, Main deck 6 removal spells with the ability to go as high as 11 from the sideboard with a wide array of diversity. Also main deck 8 counters + 4 stifle including daze which can be a blow out in conjunction with the mana denial strategy, post board I can go up to 10 counters +4 stifle which can be quite strong vs combo decks, not to mention the other combo hate cards in the board. Overall I feel like the deck has a nice 2 dimensional ability to be either very defensive with counter magic or aggressive and very removal heavy. I've been playing this deck for several months now and have a nice winning record plus a lot of experience playing it vs almost every deck in the meta. Please have a look at the list, Would love to hear any comments or suggestions

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt decay
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I will be sure to post a tournament report when I get back, Cheers!

bbogdon

04-28-2014, 02:34 PM

Hello again,

I will be going to the Detoit SCG Open next weekend, and this is what I am going to be running. Pretty much the same list as before except I have made some changes to the sideboard. I've also gone up to a 4th deathrite main cutting my delver flip count down to 25 which is probably the bare minimum. The deck still features the 10 piece mana denial package in 4 wasteland 4 stifle and 2 vindicate. Also, Main deck 6 removal spells with the ability to go as high as 11 from the sideboard with a wide array of diversity. Also main deck 8 counters + 4 stifle including daze which can be a blow out in conjunction with the mana denial strategy, post board I can go up to 10 counters +4 stifle which can be quite strong vs combo decks, not to mention the other combo hate cards in the board. Overall I feel like the deck has a nice 2 dimensional ability to be either very defensive with counter magic or aggressive and very removal heavy. I've been playing this deck for several months now and have a nice winning record plus a lot of experience playing it vs almost every deck in the meta. Please have a look at the list, Would love to hear any comments or suggestions

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt decay
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I will be sure to post a tournament report when I get back, Cheers!

Hello all,

So Detriot didn't go quite as well as I hoped but it was still fun and a good learning experience. The tournament started off well as I was paired against 2 storm players in round 1 and 2. My first opponent comboed off quickly in game 1, then before game 2 he called himself for playing a 58 card deck and concede game 2. Game 3 I dropped a canonist and it was over. Round 2 I dropped a turn 2 geist and turn 3 attack stifle the angel, and killed him promptly on turn 4 before he could get anything going. Game 2 I tutored for canonist turn 1 and he was shut out of the game. Round 3 I lost a close match in 3 to Bant Stoneblade Exalted, his pridemages really swung the equipment war. Round 4 vs. MUD my opponent leads city of traitors chalice on 1 (yuck) I'm on land-go for 2 turns and he gets stuck on 1 land. Turn 3 I draw a vindicate and get the chalice then follow up with TNN and delver on turn 4 and got him before he could stabilize. Game 2, I can't remember the exact series of events but I won the game with a flipped delver equipped with Jitte as my only permanants in play. So I'm 3-1 and get chosen to play at one of the feature tables against a very good Miracles player. Game 1 i got a quick TNN out and grinded him down to about 6 before he stabilized and Jace/Clique/Karakas locked me out of the game, game 2 he quickly got the counter/top lock on me and I couldn't find my abrupt decay and lost to clique swings. Next I lost a super tight match vs. Punishing Jund in 3 after I stifle/wasted him out of game 1. After going 3-3 and out of prize contention I basically scooped to my opponent after mulling to 5 and didn't bother playing the last round.

What I took away from the event was that the deck was overall weak as I tried to jam an aggro-control style deck into a delver shell and it just didn't work. It wasn't explosive enough to contest RUG delver type openings and the late game vs any mid-range style deck wasn't good enough either. I think it's just straight up inferior to BUG delver. So I'm putting the deck on the shelf for now and going to get some reps in with Shardless BUG and Esper Deathblade. Good luck to those of you who are going to press ahead with the deck, theres gotta be some sort of configuration which is effective. I will check back in periodically to see if there is anything new.

Cheers,

Megadeus

04-28-2014, 11:40 PM

That mana base looks terribad trying to play decay. Why even play the card?

bbogdon

04-30-2014, 09:56 AM

That mana base looks terribad trying to play decay. Why even play the card?

Basically it was in the board specifically for Miracles, I wouldn't bring it in against any wasteland deck as yes the manabase is too "terribad"

ziggy_stardust

05-07-2014, 03:25 PM

Is Lingering Souls too slow for this kind of deck? It is basically like a creature that flips Delver and provides resilience to sweepers

catmint

05-07-2014, 04:59 PM

Personally I think Esper is not strongest in delver colors but its always nice to try things out.

Looking at other successful delver decks in different colors I think you have to ask what are their strengths/weaknesses and then either find a way to do it better/different ... or ...and this is the most interesting: go into a new direction.

canadian: best "tempo" deck to leave 1 mana open; weak to ground stall: nemesis
BUG: best utilizing deathrite manaboost by tap-out & ignoring nemesis; some specific weaknesses (no cheap removal; "more all-in style")
UWR: best removal, but antisynergistic/mana intensive and threat light
BURG: stifle/deathrite as tempo boost -> threatlight/awkward mana and similar problems with ground creatures.

Now with Esper if you play stoneforge you automatically go into the "trump" direction which leads to nemesis and a low instant/sorcery count for delver. The question is why not just play esperblade/deathblade instead of delver....

I would approach this more in the direction of "ignore ground creatures" like BUG, but keep mana open for blue disruption in the RUG sense. The color W gives also another disruption element with Aven Mindcensor, which would definitely require deathrite as boost. I think the deck should play out nicely if you try to keep sorcery speed spells to 1CMC, but not playing a "power 2 drop" might just not be enough.

So creature brainstorming:
4 Delver
4 Deathrite
Disruptive flash threats on cmc3:
2-3 Aven Mindcensor
1-2 Clique
Optional expensive sorcery threats providing more resilience/punch):
1-2 Tombstalker
1-2 lingering souls
4 Confidant.. (does not really fit into the keep mana open/ignore ground creature plan).

Removal
4 Swords
2 more slots on 1 mana like disfigure/dismember are necessary I think from my canadian experience.

Disruption
4 Force
3-4 Daze
4 Stifle
2-3 Spell Pierce (Spells more problematic than 2 drop creatures so pierce over snare)

19 lands is probably right. BURG players know how bad it it is to play a non-blue land so scrubland not a good idea I think (which has an impact on tombstalker/liliana in the 75).

The sideboard totally depends on what this deck is weak against and the build, but obvious choices are:
3 Zealous persecution (elves, dnt, TNN)
Thoughtseize for combo/control
meddling mage...
Maybe some more resilient threats for control matchups
RIP is awkward, but might be necessary.

If I would have time I would try it out. No idea if it's any good. :tongue:

Juice11

08-26-2014, 11:37 PM

I've been playing around with an Esper Delver list that has tested pretty well. I built it mainly because I had a playset of bobs lying around and I have yet to put them in a deck.

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
2 Judge's Familiar
1 True Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Vindicate

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Fluuded Strand
3 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Rest in Peace
3 Meddling Mage
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Creeping Tarpit
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle

I am testing out Judge's Familiars right now, and they have been pretty good. They do well with early disruption while adding board pressure along with delver, they also can carry equipment pretty well.

Bob has been an all star as usual, he seems made for a Delver deck. I am really intrigued by this archetype, there are so many directions you could take it in. I think there is a definite argument for finding a place for disfigure in the main deck. I will stick with swords for now though. I am not sure about vindicate, but I just feel comfortable having 1 catch all in the deck. You could also cut bobs, and add tombstalkers/ and extra TNN if you want to go more aggro. You could cut familiars and add Baleful Strix. You could go with more discard and less permission. You can cut the stoneforge package, and go much more tempo oriented with stifles and more spell pierce.

I feel like this deck is very solid against most combo decks. There is all forms of disruption in Discard, permission, and Meddling mage/familiars. I feel like bob gives it an edge against control that other delver decks don't have answers to. It also can answer the ground decks with TNN (thinking about adding a second one), batterskull, and swords for goyfs.

bbogdon

01-18-2015, 11:47 AM

Greetings,

In light of the new set release i have been retesting this shell with the hope that monastery mentor could fit into the deck, i have been testing the below list with 2 TNN, 3 SFM instead of 2 SFM and 3 MM, also i have been playing 1 batterskull and 1 dimir charm over gprobe 3-4. The deck has been performing very well against combo, and oddly out of the 12 rounds ive played with it only was matched agaist another delver deck (ur) once, lost in a close 3. The deck has alot of surprise factor which has been nice, tundra-mother-daze has been pretty fun. The hate bear sideboard under mother has been pretty back breaking in the storm and ascendancy matches. Im interested to see how MM will perform, people have been criticizing that he dies too easily but i think this mother package will shore up that issue. Also ive been dying to cast zealous persecution with this guy, lol. Considering playing a cavern of souls too, Check it out and let me know what you think. Cheers,

4 delver of secrets
3 mother of runes
3 monastery mentor
2 stoneforge mystic

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
2 treasure cruise
1 dig through time
4 force of will
4 daze
4 swords to plowshares
1 darkblast (this card has been huge)
1 umezawas jitte

4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 wasteland
3 tundra
2 underground sea
1 island
1 plains

2 meddling mage
2 ethersworn canonist
2 containment priest
2 zealous persecution
2 cabal therapy (currently thoughtseize)
2 flusterstorm
2 disenchant
1 sword of fire and ice

Deckerator

01-18-2015, 01:27 PM

bbogdon

01-19-2015, 11:28 AM

@bbogdon
I like your list. It looks really interesting. Im anxious in which deck MM will find a home.

To your list. If i were you i would not play the 2x Stoneforge for only a Jitte in the MB and a SoFaI in th SB. If you wanna do sth like that, drop 2x Stoneforge and add a second Jitte or up the Stoneforge count and add a Batterskull.

Interesting, I didn't consider just playing 2 Jitte's. That would open up another slot in the MB and even hardcasting the Jitte can be beneficial since it triggers prowess and the mentor as well. maybe I will stick the dimir charm back in and add a 3rd Meddling Mage or a Vendilion CLique to the SB in place of SOFI.

To your second point, upping the SFM count and adding batterskull puts the dever flip count down to 26 assuming i keep 3 mentors. In the first scenario with only 2 Jitte's I get to put the delver flip count up to 29...I think 27 is about as low as you want to go, and I'm not sure 2 Mentors will be enough as the threat density is quite low considering mother is on defense duties

I'm going to run the TNN/batterskull version again this week and hopefully i can get my hands on 3 mentors for the following week. Casting SFM under mother into batterskull the following turn has won me a couple games and I'm having a hard time giving that element up, but I guess I will have to wait and see how much of a threat Mentor can be.

bbogdon

07-30-2015, 05:03 PM

Interesting, I didn't consider just playing 2 Jitte's. That would open up another slot in the MB and even hardcasting the Jitte can be beneficial since it triggers prowess and the mentor as well. maybe I will stick the dimir charm back in and add a 3rd Meddling Mage or a Vendilion CLique to the SB in place of SOFI.

To your second point, upping the SFM count and adding batterskull puts the dever flip count down to 26 assuming i keep 3 mentors. In the first scenario with only 2 Jitte's I get to put the delver flip count up to 29...I think 27 is about as low as you want to go, and I'm not sure 2 Mentors will be enough as the threat density is quite low considering mother is on defense duties

I'm going to run the TNN/batterskull version again this week and hopefully i can get my hands on 3 mentors for the following week. Casting SFM under mother into batterskull the following turn has won me a couple games and I'm having a hard time giving that element up, but I guess I will have to wait and see how much of a threat Mentor can be.

Me again,

I'm back on the Esper Delver train for the last couple months now and have had some pretty good success going 31-13 in my last 11 4-round weekly's and 3-3 in a larger tourny losing my last round for potential win-in to top 8. I've been running the below list, and I can't believe i wasn't playing lingering souls from the beginning, it is the perfect card for this deck. Since you lose 2 non-delver flippers to batterskull and jitte it allows you to shore up your flip count while still maintaining threat density. I was having problems getting 1-1'ed all day and getting hosed by Terminus that i decided to make the change and I don't think I will look back. Also, the other MVP latley has been Ethersworn Canonist, I'm currently 9-1 vs Omni-tell and Storm and he is the main reason. The canonist-counterspell soft lock is just way too good against decks without blockers and limited removal. The deck has also been performing very well against other Delver decks, as I usually have a better top end with the stoneforge package. However I have had some problems, Lands in particular is quite bad. Game 1 there is alot of dead cards and if u can't get deathrite online to control punishing fire or recurring wastelands, its over. Miracles also not great, but having the abrupt decays in the side board has let me wiggle out of the lock a couple times. All in all, not a lot has changed, just cut Vindicates for lingering souls, abrupt decay has been easier to board since wastelands are not as popular as they used to be. Currently I'm trying out 2 Leyline of the Void in the board specifically to shore up the Lands match (very popular in my meta) as well as hate on Dig Through Time, Tarmogoyf and Young Pyromancer/Mentor-Cabal therapy. Also acts as collateral hate for Dredge, Reanimator and RUG delver without interfering with Lingering Souls and Deathrite. Interested to hear if anyone else has been brewing. Cheers,

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lingering Souls
1 Counterspell
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Darkblast - (meta call, has been Cage, Divert, Flusterstorm #2, Vindicate and Vendilion Clique)
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm

Pattycake

07-06-2017, 11:24 AM

Hello Everyone! Time to revive this thread.

A bit background on myself, I have been playing legacy since 2012 and have spent the vast majority of that time with SFM in my decks.
The series of decks I have played since then include but are not limited to:

Death & Taxes, UW Stoneblade, Deathblade, Esper Mentor, American Delver, Patriot (BUG) Delver, Grixis Delver, Miracles (pre and post top ban), and now finally Esper Delver.

So now the question is, why play Esper delver when you have options to play all these other better known SFM or Delver Variants.

Lets start with the Pros:

1. Swords to Plowshares is the best removal in the game, Fatal push backs it up nicely.

Its value has been ever increasing with the increase in Gurmag Angler and other delver creatures.
This is the one card I missed most from my runs with BUG delver, which included a X-4 finish at GP Vegas. Fatal push + Decay is good, but doesn't answer everything.

2. SFM + TNN gives the deck inevitability most delver decks do not have.

While every delver deck can play TNN, the one with the equipment will always avail.

3. It still has the generic "good delver draw" vs combo.

After feeling a bit disipointed with other delver decks I tried to go back to Deathblade to put the hurt on the 3/2 flier.
The issue was I started losing to a ton of random combo decks, and relized I couldn't leave home without Delver + Daze + FOW again.

4. It is THE most flexibile Delver deck, and will move from control to aggro many times a game depending on the draws. It has unconditional removal, discard, and countermagic so it can play many different styles of games.

Cons:

1. It is slower than other delver variants.

2. It does have a '4' color mana base with the trop so can have difficulties similar to grixis delver.

3. It can have a few dead draws if you find your equipment before SFM or SFM after you have already tutored your equipment.

4. It has issue answering artifacts and enchantments due to lacking abrupt decay.

5. STP can sometimes damper the aggro plan, and therefore you need to contantly revaluate your role in the game.

So if this sounds like your kind of deck, without further ado here is the list.

Creatures (14)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tombstalker

Spells (25)

4 Brainstorm
1 Fatal Push
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

Artifacts (2)

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Lands (19)

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)

1 Fatal Push
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Baleful Strix
1 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
2 Meddling Mage
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Lingering Souls
1 Painful Truths

75 Cards Total

Nicklas

08-07-2017, 09:09 AM

Hey, up until now I didn't even know there was an Esper Delver thread. Nice!
I like your list!
Do you like the Hymn so far?
Esper Delver already has a rather high curve and needing BB (3x Hymn, 1x Tombstalker) is rough, so I am not quite sure it's worth it. I am also not the biggest fan of investing two mana without affecting the board at all. We are already not the most tempo-ish tempo deck and I am not sure we can afford this. BUG Delver can, because they have a strong cc2 drop (Goyf) that can win the game without the need to invest further resources. SfM on it's own is rather underwhelming...

To me Esper Delver is a fast Stoneblade deck instead of a slow Delver deck. At least the Blade-version obviously. There are people having success with the blade-less version (4x Thought Scour, 4x Gurmag Angler instead).

I've been toying with this archetype for years now. It used to be my default "I don't know what to play at this local tournament and don't have time to build any other 'real' deck"-deck. Apart from local tournaments and a Nebraska's War Trial (Italian tournament) I've only played it at two bigger tournaments, but finished in the Top8 in both of them, which makes me think I am incredibly lucky and the archetype is underrated.

I've played the following list at the MKM Prague 2016 tournament when CB was still legal and Fatal Push not printed yet:

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gurmag Angler
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Instants & Sorceries
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Lingering Souls
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution

2-1 DnT
2-0 DnT
2-0 ANT
1-2 Elves
2-1 Shardless BUG
2-1 Eldrazi
2-0 DnT
2-0 Sneak & Show
2-1 Miracles

1-2 Lands

Played an updated version at the MKM Prague 2017 tournament:

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gurmag Angler
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Instants & Sorceries
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution

0-2 Czech Pile
2-0 Eldrazi
2-0 Deathblade
2-0 Infect
2-1 Shardless BUG
2-0 Food Chain
2-1 BUG Delver
2-0 Grixis Delver
2-0 Big Eldrazi Ramp

1-2 Miracles

Moving forward I need to fine-tune the SB. The MD felt amazing so far. Lands, Elves and Czech Pile are rough. We've got a couple of good MUs in DnT, Infect and some Delver variants (highly depending on the list). Most MUs are 50-50 though and that's an asset: We can beat all the decks by playing tighter and getting lucky in the right spots. :P
In the MD the disruption split of 2 TS/1 Snare/1 Pierce is up for debate. I like diversifying the disruption package to make it harder for opponents to play around. The first Snare always felt amazing, but often-times you don't want a second one. I don't want to play a Snare just so it has done SOMETHING. Playing multiples often forces you to throw it at the first cc2-spell you see just so it won't rot in your hand.
The 3/2 split of StP and Push is also far from set in stone. I played 2/3 for a while, thought of cutting StP entirely and adding a Dismember/Murderous Cut instead and also thought of playing the playset StP. I did not play enough matches to be certain about the perfect removal package, but I believe it contains some number of StP, because it does deal with Marit Lage, Angler, Eldrazi and reliably removes cc3 creatures (and cc4 ones too, which doesn't come up too often though) whereas Fatal Push needs set-up. Even if I have a fetchland I don't want to be forced to crack it just so that I can deal with a KotR or whatever it is my opponent has sitting around on his side of the board...
Last but not least I am not certain about the Scrubland in my most recent list. You obviously have to play it! :D

iostream

08-25-2017, 02:10 PM

This archetype did well in a recent Legacy Challenge by leaning harder on Souls and completely dropping the SFM package:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/737209#paper

Looks pretty interesting!

Nicklas

08-25-2017, 10:24 PM

Not too long ago he wrote an interesting article about nonbos in general and StP in Delver decks in particular: https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/07/07/nonbos-using-a-legacy-lens-to-analyse-anti-synergies/

I think his version of Esper Delver is tuned to beat the inbred MODO meta: Tons of Grixis Delver and even more decks trying to beat delver (Grixis Control, Czech Pile/4c Leovold aka the KCommand decks). Czech Pile is one of the harder MUs my version can possibly face and Grixis Control with it's heavy Therapy-Package is also more than decent against SfM finding cluncky equipments, but having access to 3 Lingering Souls MD and mulitple Gurmag Angler instead makes the MU ten times easier (at least...).

MXG

08-31-2017, 04:09 PM

This is Maxtortion. A few days ago my primer on the Lingering Souls / Gurmag Angler version was posted up on The Salt Mine.

https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/08/27/ive-got-souls-an-esper-delver-primer/

Since then, I know of a few people who've sleeved up the deck for the first time and said it's performed very well. (CFB 1.5k, MTGO 5-0s, and LGS undefeated runs). Obviously I think the deck is very good, and I'd be happy to field questions or hear feedback.

Andreas_Mueller

09-04-2017, 08:50 AM

Hello first time poster here,

I wanted first of all say thank you to Maxtortion for the primer about his take on Esper Delver.
I did play that deck in yesterdays Legacy Challenge to a top 8 finish.

Here is a small report and some thoughts:

I played the exact 75 from the primer linked above.

Round 1: Against UB Control
He had a really interesting build with Vedalken Shakles and Ancestral Vision. The games though were not really spectacular.
His draws were quite lackluster und the deck did just delver things.
1-0

Round 2: Death n Taxes
Game 1 my opponent had a slow start (no Vial) which got run over by a Delver paired with a Deathrite and double Daze for his threats.
Game 2 is where things got interesting. My opponnent mulled to 6 and started with a Turn 1 Vial. On the draw my Hand contained:
Thoughtseize, Delver, Angler, Thoughtscour, Liliana Last Hope, USEA, Delta, Wasteland. After thinking i decided to lead with Thoughtseize
instead of Delver. My reasoning was that the hand gets slow downed a lot by a turn 2 Thalia. Opponents hand was: Chalice, Thalia, Jitte and Stoneforge.
I took the Chalice before it can wreck me. On the opponents Turn 2 he found a second Plains and slammed Jitte. I drew Deathrite and played it together with Delver.
On his third turn he found a second Chalice (on 1) and vialed in Thalia. My Turn 3 was playing Liliana and eat Thalia (Definitly a feel good moment). From there on
the game turned into a grind with my Liliana and threads vs his Stoneforge, Batterskull, Jitte Flickerwisp and Serra Avenger which i won close.
2-0

Round 3: Miracles (2 Gideon main)
Game 1 I have a slow start and get killed by Gideon
Game 2 I also have a slow start with Deathrite and a lot of disruption though which makes his Snapcasters awkward. Around turn 5 i Spell Pierce a Gideon. After that i find two threats
and he has to hardcast Terminus which i can Daze.
Game 3 On the draw i sideboarded out 2 daze for 1 Force and 1 Extraction (I know it is considered bad, but i wanted to surprise him and maybe setup a play with it.)Another slow start on my side. I can Daze a Predict and Thoughtseize a Snapcaster afterwards. The next few turns he cantrips and i flood out a little. I have Lingering Souls flashbacked though, which starts to attack his ressources. After his Terminus i have another Lingering Souls and draw an Angler. By the time I also have drawn my Extraction, which i use to remove all his Terminus. Then i play my Angler into a Swords to Plowshares and Liliana (eat a Snappy) . Unfortunatly he brought in a Pyroclasm, which can clear my board. Next turn he plays Jace but i can hardcast FOW and Liliana Ultimate gets him.
3-0
Round 4: Czech Pile
Here i dont want to write a lot. Game 1 i mull to 6 and he to 5 (He never plays a land and discards Reanimate).
Game 2: He is not on Reanimator and i lose :D
Game 3: I double-Wasteland him and counter his Ponder. He can still cast 2 or 3 other Cantrips but doesnt find Lands.
4-0

Round 5: Czech Pile
Games are really close. I nearly had him Game 3, but he stabilized and killed me.
4-1

Round 6: Lands
First of all i think i could have won both games, but played really poorly.
Game 1: I have 2 Deathrites, 3 Lands (1 of which is a Wasteland). He has Stage, Taiga, 2 Burnwillows and a Crop Rotation in hand. My problem here is that i really dont know what my gameplan really is. I randomly waste his Stage, which is wrong i think, as i should just wait for something relevant to happen. On the other hand my clock was really slow. I would love to hand some insight :D
Game 2: Here i punt hard, i should just win that game. I have a flipped Delver and Punishing Fires are Surgicaled. My Opponent has Rishadan Port. I Crack my Fetch (my only untapped land), then attack with Delver. In the moment i do that i realize my mistake and my opponent taps my land in combat and i cannot play Angler. The game goes on for some time, but my clock was to slow to win that after my mistake.
4-2

I reach 8th place luckily.

Quarters: Czech pile (Same opponent as Round 5)
The games are again really grindy and close. Game 3 he is on 1 life and he wins maybe a little bit lucky in the end with drawing Marsh Casulties, Diabolic Edict to my Angler and Souls tokens. On the other hand he saw a lot of cards inbetween.

Random thoughts:

1) Vindicate did not feel good. I had it in hand sometimes, but never really wanted to cast it. I try a Bitterblossom now.
2) The Lands matchup in confusing.
3) Maxtortion do you ignore Blood Moons and try to get under it? For example vs Miracles or Grixis.

Cheers

MXG

09-05-2017, 12:27 PM

1) Vindicate did not feel good. I had it in hand sometimes, but never really wanted to cast it. I try a Bitterblossom now.
2) The Lands matchup in confusing.
3) Maxtortion do you ignore Blood Moons and try to get under it? For example vs Miracles or Grixis.

Cheers

Congrats on Top 8ing the Challenge! I'm glad you enjoyed the deck. Do try a Bitterblossom in that slot - it might be good. It can't blow up Chalices, Jittes, or anything, but maybe having the extra Faeries is worth it. I'm sticking with Vindicate as I think I like it more than most.

The Lands MU is confusing, and difficult. It plays like the Grixis Delver vs Lands MU, except you can't Bolt them out, but you can remove Marit Lage (or just block forever with Souls).

In the non-Mono-Red Stompy matchups, I generally ignore Blood Moon, or try to nab it with Thoughtseize or Spell Pierce if I have to. For UWR Blade, I already have Disenchant boarded in, so that's one more way to pop a Blood Moon. That said, Blood Moon is very good against this deck, and that's a legitimate weakness.

By the way, try playing the 4th StP in the side over the Edict. I've really been liking the swap.

maharis

09-05-2017, 12:42 PM

Congrats on Top 8ing the Challenge! I'm glad you enjoyed the deck. Do try a Bitterblossom in that slot - it might be good. It can't blow up Chalices, Jittes, or anything, but maybe having the extra Faeries is worth it. I'm sticking with Vindicate as I think I like it more than most.

The Lands MU is confusing, and difficult. It plays like the Grixis Delver vs Lands MU, except you can't Bolt them out, but you can remove Marit Lage (or just block forever with Souls).

In the non-Mono-Red Stompy matchups, I generally ignore Blood Moon, or try to nab it with Thoughtseize or Spell Pierce if I have to. For UWR Blade, I already have Disenchant boarded in, so that's one more way to pop a Blood Moon. That said, Blood Moon is very good against this deck, and that's a legitimate weakness.

By the way, try playing the 4th StP in the side over the Edict. I've really been liking the swap.

I've played your build of this deck a few times online and off. Had much more success in paper, including a 3-0 last night (beating Czech Pile, Maverick, and Miracles). I did beat Lands the one time I played it, but in game 1 I had a triple Deathrite draw and in game 2 I had a triple Delver draw and just countered all his removal haha.

Online I 3-2'd a league before a couple 1-3 drops. Blood Moon appeared much more often in the latter two leagues, and I feel like that's the Grixis decks' adaptation to this deck. As you said, it is insanely good. I am considering a Hydroblast effect somewhere in the 75, possibly supplemented by a basic island but not sure which land I would/should cut. Scrubland won me a game against Choke though. (Actually, Blood Moon is way better than Choke against us).

I also don't own a Liliana, the Last Hope, so I've been playing Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. I don't think that it's as good in the Grixis matches but it did win the Miracles match for me.

Also you can pry Vindicate from my cold, dead hands. The card is super clutch: other Anglers, Jaces, random manascrew, equipments, etc.

MXG

09-05-2017, 05:17 PM

I am considering a Hydroblast effect somewhere in the 75, possibly supplemented by a basic island but not sure which land I would/should cut.

Hydroblast seems reasonable, but kind of hard to bring in against decks that may have barely any Red cards. How may postboard Red cards are Miracles / UWr Blade decks really running these days?

Baum

09-06-2017, 04:21 AM

The amount of red cards after boarding is difficult to predict. If they've got Moons, they will be in the deck. If a Miracles or Blade opponent doesn't know your list, they might bring in Pyroblast to counter TNN. If they know the list, they probably won't bring the Blasts. Just countering Cantrips or Delver doesn't seem great. They also might bring one or two additional red sweepers like Kozilek's Return or Izzet Staticaster, but not all lists run those.

Regarding Blood Moon in general: All Delver decks die to a resolved Moon on an empty board. That's just a tradeoff you make if you sleeve up the card Delver of Secrets (outside of UR...). I'd still board in Disenchant if I suspect Moon, but usually our counterspells and discard backed up with pressure should be enough.

I might play Maxtortion's list at a larger German tournament (300-500 people) on the 17th. I was set to play Nicklas' Esper Delver SFM-List and we discussed the build at length in a German forum. I really like the SFM list and got a couple of 5:0 leagues with it, but the deck just can't beat Czech Pile. Ever. If your grindy fair threat (SFM) is so bad against one of the premier control decks in the format that you want to board it out, something is off. Of course, the online metagame is super inbred with Kolaghan's Command decks and I might not run into a single Czech Pile or Grixis Control all day. I'll probably bring both builds with me and decide after the big trial on Saturday.

I played a league the other day and went 4:1, winning against 2x 4c Loam, Grixis Delver and D&T. I lost against Aluren. The list felt good so far. I'd love to fit another Canonist in the board against Storm and especially Food Chain, which is quite popular in Germany. I'd also like another Flusterstorm against the random Burn opponents I always seem to get paired against. But that would probably mess up the sideboarding for the important matchups, so it might not be worth it.

The only change to the maindeck I'll make for sure is cutting the Scrubland for the 3rd Tundra. I made the same swap in the SFM build and never looked back. Whenever I drew the Scrubland in testing, it was just awful. It's nice to fetch as your 3rd land, but I lost more games because I got wasted off blue than I won because I could fetch Scrubland. Even with 3 Tundras, we still have one more land to cast DRS than Grixis Delver has.

Gesendet von meinem FP2 mit Tapatalk

maharis

09-06-2017, 12:18 PM

3-1 last night, same list

W Aluren
W Sneak & Show
L Miracles
W UWR twin/stoneblade

Miracles was same player from Monday night but he added Soothsaying/CB package to his deck. That is still a huge pain for Delver decks to beat...

On Hydroblast/red cards: I think Moon is bad enough for us that having a card that can beat it may be worth it. It also has upside in other matches: Burn especially, but it can also nab a K-Command out of a Pile deck (a major source of CA for them), a YP before it gets out of control, Burning Wish, Past in Flames. I suppose Spell Pierce is probably fine in most of the same situations, but it's meta-dependent... I would be more likely to play it online than in paper right now.

MXG

09-06-2017, 12:35 PM

The only change to the maindeck I'll make for sure is cutting the Scrubland for the 3rd Tundra. I made the same swap in the SFM build and never looked back. Whenever I drew the Scrubland in testing, it was just awful. It's nice to fetch as your 3rd land, but I lost more games because I got wasted off blue than I won because I could fetch Scrubland. Even with 3 Tundras, we still have one more land to cast DRS than Grixis Delver has.

Gesendet von meinem FP2 mit Tapatalk

With regard to the Scrubland vs Tundra #3, I'm going to copy-paste something I wrote to another good player with the same concern. The TLDR is that it's preference.

"You're right, Scrubland is awkward. Badlands is awkward in Friedman-style 4c Delver for the same reasons. Repeatedly drawing the Trop is not fun and can happen sometimes, same as in Grixis Delver.
To actually improve your % of keepable hands from ~86% to ~89%, every dual needs to be Blue. Jarvis Yu subscribes to this, as well as other notable Legacy deck designers.
The reasons I continue to play Scrubland are as follows:
I'm considering the 19th land is a "bonus" land in order to help you cast your spells as the game progresses. An example is if you have an Underground Sea, Ponder into a Swords to Plowshares, need to remove the opposing threat now, but don't want to get wasted off of Black in order to cast your Gurmag Angler next turn. Similarly, a situation can arise when casting Lingering Souls and don't want to get wasted off of Black for the flashback next turn. These are the kinds of situations where Scrubland shines.
Also, there are a lot of cases where I want access to double Black, but don't want to not have access to White. Combining any two plays of Gurmag + Deathrite + Fatal Push requires two Black sources, as does Liliana, the Last Hope. Scrubland helps increase the Black count slightly while not cutting down on White sources (the reason I wanted to add a 19th land in the first place).
Furthermore, some decks with Wasteland have been bringing in Surgical Extraction to combat Lingering Souls, and I lost a couple of games to getting my Underground Seas extracted. The Scrubland plays around this, to some extent.
All of this said, I'm not sure if the Scrubland is objectively right. For my playstyle, however, it certainly is."

Canderson3000

09-07-2017, 12:09 AM

I have been really loving this deck. I do run the scrub land and I think it is helpful because it opens up some great double black spells like hymn to tourach and tombstalker. Here is the list I have been running. I want to add a cannonist or two to the board and maybe another disenchant. Any comments or criticism is definitely appreciated.

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 polluted delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

CREATURES
4 delver
4 Drs
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tomstalker
2 Gurmag Angler

Spells
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtscour
1 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
4 Force of Will

SIDEBOARD
1 disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Jace the Mind Sculpter
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Fatal Push
3 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolical Edict
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Nihilism Spellbomb

maharis

09-09-2017, 07:26 PM

I'm 8-2 with this deck in paper, but 5-12 with it online. Blood Moon comes up so much more on MTGO. I was leaning towards it for Eternal Extravaganza but now I'm a little shaken sitting at 0-4 in a league losing to Miracles twice, Big Red and D&T. I guess those may just not be very good matchups. Anyone have any ideas as to how to turn it around? How do you board for Miracles?

Nicklas

09-09-2017, 09:43 PM

maharis

09-09-2017, 10:27 PM

Are you playing maxtortions 75?
That information would help... I assume you still are?
I am also curious on how his version fares against Miracles. Last time I asked he had dodged that MU so far. Lingering Souls is great, but we are horrid at dealing with resolved JTMS, which is why he plays the SB Vindicate. I decided to just congratulate my opponent and concede once a JTMS resolved against the Wasteland+Daze Deck and I don't have a board that allows me to strike back...
DnT is supposed to be a good MU (and a great one if you're playing the SfM-version).
Mono Red is just high variance and super random. I wouldn't get discouraged losing to that deck as long as it doesn't happen literally all the time in which case I would add 1-2 Hydroblasts.

Yes I am on Maxtortion's version with some small SB changes.

D&T felt OK, it was a close 1-2 where he had T1 vial T2 RIP in game 3. And yes Jace is a horror show, I try to save answers for that or whatever landhate enchantment they are playing (B2B or Moon) but I can never get enough pressure on before that.

I've done a lot of damage with spirit tokens but it's slow. I can never decide whether I want Jitte or not, it feels dead but it's a way to make Souls close quicker. Basically if we don't stick our SB walker we are DOA.

Andreas_Mueller

09-15-2017, 05:05 PM

Last weekend i played a 40 player tournament with top 8.

I played the Lingering Souls list. The only difference to Maxtortion i made was cutting the Vindicate and adding a Bitterblossom.

I went 6-0 in the Swiss beating Hive Mind, Death´n´Taxes, Grixis Delver, OmniSneak, Czech Pile and something i forgot.
In the Quarters i beat Infect in a really close match. In the Semis i lost against the OmniSneak guy from Swiss.

If someone wants to know anything about the matches feel free to ask, i just wanted to share some thoughts about the deck.

1) I am very happy with the Maindeck. Scrubland has been good and bad. Lingering Souls is sometimes clunky but most of the time INSANE ^^

2) I am also very happy with the sideboard. Bitterblossom has been good for me, but it does kinda the same thing as Lingering Souls.

btm10

09-16-2017, 11:22 PM

7-2 for 12th place at EE7 with a list very similar to Max's. One loss was to some rough mulligans and not drawing a second land against ANT, so I'd say 60% variance and 40% a questionable keep. The other was to Junk Nic Fit, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Beat Grixis Delver and 4c Control twice each, BR Reanimator, UR Delver, and 4c Loam.

Nicklas

09-17-2017, 04:38 PM

Played the following list to a 7-2 finish at the MKM Legacy Mainevent in Hamburg. Little disappointed to miss Top8 after starting 6-0, but I made Modern Top8 (8-0-1) so I really can't complain... My MUs:

2-0 False Cure
2-0 White Eldrazi
2-0 UR Delver
2-0 Burn
2-0 Eldrazi
2-1 Elves
1-2 UWr Blade
0-2 Eldrazi
2-0 Czech Pile

My list:

3 Tundra
3 Usea
1 Trop
4 Delta
4 Strand
4 Wasteland

4 Delver
4 DRS
3 SfM
2 TNN
1 Angler

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Spell Snare
3 StP
2 Push
2 TS

SB:
1 StP
1 PtE
2 Surgical
1 Fluster
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Disenchant
2 Lingering Souls
1 Lili, Last Hope
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Canonist
1 Containment

Andreas_Mueller

09-20-2017, 07:40 AM

@Nicklas: Gratz on your result. I am curious: How is your czech pile matchup/plan? I can imagine Kcommand is a real issue.

General:
I played the Legacy Challenge on Sunday and got beaten up hard. I dropped at 1-3 losing to CzechPile, Miracles and Grixis Delver. I had a lot of flooding and mulligans which was frustrating.

I saw an interesting list in the Challenge piloted by a player called "Heibing". Here is a link: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/763538#paper

The list focusses around hard-to-deal-with creatures with 4 Angler and 4 Souls. I think i will test this some leagues.

Nicklas

09-20-2017, 08:08 AM

Thanks. Good, or at least more luck to you next time!
My Czech Pile MU is negative and the main reason why I guess it makes sense to stick to the Lingering Souls/Gurmag Angler/Thought Scour list online (I don't play MODO). While K.Command is an issue, it's not as bad as people say/think it is.
The plan is to flood the board with a diverse array of threats in order to overwhelm the opponent and kill them before they're able to deal with all of it.
Killing their DRS and making sure their Strix is rather worthless (2 Spell Snare helps a lot) is mandatory.
If we are in a stage of the game where they can flashback K.Command we lost anyways or kill them in the back swing, but that's another story.

I did not test much but did some theory crafting on how to at least have a fair shot against Czech Pile. While I came up with a few plans, what I ended up doing in the 9th round of the tournament when I actually played the MU was different from what I had previously planned to do:

In:

1 Fluster
2 Lingering Souls
1 Lili, Last Hope
2 Zealous Persecution

Out:

2 Daze
2 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize

On the draw. Luckily there was no third game.
My previous SB plan included boarding out the SfM package, but I felt like it's good enough to punish my opponent if they stumble (they did) and the equipments are actually really good against their deck if I am able to connect with Jitte once or keep up mana to bounce the Batterskull. Trading SfM+Skull vs. K.Command is actually not a bad trade. Not saying SfM is good against them, but it's good enough and better than other cards. We just need a high density of threats...

I like that list. No Delver so I guess this is the wrong thread to discuss it in depth? But: The Bayou seems wrong.

btm10

09-20-2017, 06:33 PM

I'm down to 1 Thought Scour in MXG's list right now, and while I like the idea of an Esper Control deck, I think you're giving up a lot by dropping Delvers and Wastelands but having no real top-end other than Souls. That list seems like it wants Jace somewhere.

Stevestamopz

01-04-2018, 07:12 AM

Hey all,

Recently picked up Esper Delver after my Grixis Delver deck became stone unplayable in the Melbourne meta.

Made some minor tweaks to Max's OG list and went 3-1 tonight for equal 1st placed at a small weekly.

Round 1: Czech Pile (2-1)
Round 2: UB Reanimator (2-1)
Round 3: UR Thing in the Ice/Control
Round 4: Sneak and Show (1-2)

//Creature (11)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

//Instant (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thought Scour

//Sorcery (7)
3 Lingering Souls
4 Ponder

//Land (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Vindicate
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution

The spellbomb was just a last minute decision that I don't fully endorse. It turns out Lingering Souls just absolutely mauls Czech Pile (which was a nice change from being mauled by it when playing Grixis) so that card will probably become Invasive Surgery or a Collective Brutality or something to help what feels like a fairly sketchy combo matchup.

Anyway, deck is super sweet and I think it's being massively slept on right now, deck feels excellently positioned to beat up on all the decks that beat Grixis Delver while also beating Grixis Delver.