Tom Martell and TSG Discuss Legacy - GP Atlanta Preview

[CookedChestnuts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23OGTy1s3rg&feature=g-u-u

Currently about halfway through this. Tom Martell sounds really knowledgeable about Legacy, and I tend to agree with about 90% of the things he says.

They discuss individual cards, strategies, decks, sideboard options, etc.

Enjoy.

[csy]

yeah he knows a little about legacy. I think he placed pretty well in indy.

[cdr]

Awesome video. Martell is great in interviews.

[Julian23]

Can't watch videos on this machine, can someone please post the gist of it?

[dsck]

Can't watch videos on this machine, can someone please post the gist of it?

50 minutes of martell analyzing tier 1 decks for gp atlanta.

[rxavage]

So Martell and presumabley every at CB is on RUG? No surprise there.

[Arsenal]

Actually, he's quite favorable of Griselbrand-based decks, specifically Reanimator (Sneak n' Show... not so much).

[rxavage]

Actually, he's quite favorable of Griselbrand-based decks, specifically Reanimator (Sneak n' Show... not so much).

As I got farther into the video is got that impression as well.

[Arsenal]

I'm quite interested to see if Griselbrand comes out in full force for GP Atlanta as the last couple SCG Opens hasn't given us the "OMFGWTFBBQ! 7/8 Griselbrand decks in Top 8!" moment that many have thought would've come by now.

Martell is obviously high on Gilded Drake as an answer to Griselbrand, but he does address the absurdity of Griselbrand and how drastically better he is than pretty much every cheat-into-play fatty ever.

[CookedChestnuts]

But he does address the absurdity of Griselbrand and how drastically better he is than pretty much every STRATEGY EVER.

Fixed that for you.

[cdr]

From all indications it looks like most "pros" are on Griselmator.

[rxavage]

From all indications it looks like most "pros" are on Griselmator.

I found it quite funny how Martell advised players to sb Grafdigger's Cages and a single Surgical Extraction as their grave hate.

[CookedChestnuts]

I found it quite funny how Martell advised players to sb Grafdigger's Cages and a single Surgical Extraction as their grave hate.

Wrong, he was referring to Canadian Threshold's sideboard. He said if graveyard decks were really problematic, he wouldn't recommend Leyline of the Void, and that something like Grafdigger's Cage doesn't affect your deck at all. Relic of Progenitus is bad for Canadian Threshold obviously, and Tormod's Crypt is a one-time use.

Decks like Reanimator can fight through 1-2 Tormod's Crypts, however; once a Cage sticks, they need to Echoing Truth/remove it. I've lost games to Reanimator in testing where they're fought through 2 out of 3 of my Tormod's Crypts, one of my Spell Pierces and one Force of Will. That deck can have some nutty draws. :mad:

[rxavage]

Wrong, he was referring to Canadian Threshold's sideboard. He said if graveyard decks were really problematic, he wouldn't recommend Leyline of the Void, and that something like Grafdigger's Cage doesn't affect your deck at all. Relic of Progenitus is bad for Canadian Threshold obviously, and Tormod's Crypt is a one-time use.

Decks like Reanimator can fight through 1-2 Tormod's Crypts, however; once a Cage sticks, they need to Echoing Truth/remove it. I've lost games to Reanimator in testing where they're fought through 2 out of 3 of my Tormod's Crypts, one of my Spell Pierces and one Force of Will. That deck can have some nutty draws. :mad:



So how am I wrong? You just confirmed what I stated, nice try at being oppositional for no reason. Anyways, SE is superior gy-hate when dealing with Reanimator, I played the deck for months and Cages never scared me, SE is also more versatile when dealing with Reanimator's sb strategy. It is funny how he recommends obviously subpar tech.

[Julian23]

I played the deck for months and Cages never scared me [... ] obviously subpar tech.

:cry:

"Obviously"...this word, you keep using it. I don't think you know what it means.

[Arsenal]

Cage isn't subpar at all. Yes, it can get bounced, but Reanimator is boarding in 1-2 bounce spells maybe, and Cage completely blanks Needle (which is often found 2-3x in Reanimator SBs, thinking it'll combat Crypt/Relic). SE may get my Griselbrands, but that won't stop my Elesh Norn from blanking your entire creature base while beating for 4, or Blazing Archon laughing at your attackers while bashing face, etc... Cage isn't subpar on any level at all when dealing with graveyard-based decks.

[rxavage]

:cry:

"Obviously"...this word, you keep using it. I don't think you know what it means.


Really? Because I really need to drink some chamomile and take a long look at my life. Warned for flaming. ~NC




Cage isn't subpar on any level at all when dealing with graveyard-based decks. I would argue that Cage is better against Dredge.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

CFB is on Reanimator.

Owen asked me to borrow cards on Twitter.

[I am the brainwasher]

I can just talk from the Threshold side here, but Cage beeing inferior is just hilarious. The only "real" argument that can be brought up against it is that it costs more mana. That's it. I play 3 Surgical Extraction and a single Crypt/Cage as current GYh8 and I am quite impressed by Cage lateley. In Threshold, I am not 100% that it is the way to go, since cantripping into a Crypt is just insane against Dredge. I definetly like the impact the lone Cage has against Nic Fit and randomness (seems like there are still a few peeps out there who play NO), but these applications of it are talked down by the same people who advocate for Crypt beeing 100% better all the time anyway. Me don't carz.
Fact is, that as long as there is a Cage on board, both Dredge and Reanimator are basically fukced. Truthing/Chaining/Claiming/Grudging/Show'n'tellering to get rid of it, is normally something that cost them enough resources or mana to increase your chances to prohibit their fapping or reanimating. In comparison, a Crypt buys time, a Cage switches the role of you beeing now proactive, which is quite comfortable with a ton of soft-counters.
SE is boss against hindering a 1st turn kill from LEDredge on the draw and relativizes a lack of Crypt in other MU's efficiently.

[Aggro_zombies]

Someone really needs to tell these people that saying, "You can play anything in Legacy" does a disservice to all the people watching this video for advice. You can only play anything in Legacy if you are so burdened by disposable income that $30 for a tournament entrance fee plus whatever the cost of your accommodations is doesn't faze you. Otherwise, the number of decks you can play and with which you can realistically expect to do well is limited to what they talked about in the video (minus obvious non-starters like Affinity).

I thought the whole myth of Legacy being this wide open format was dispelled by the 5k series and a relatively consistent top-tables metagame, but I guess not.

Martell needs to work on speaking clearly and/or slowing down.

Otherwise, great video.

[Arsenal]

Exactly. A Cage means that Reanimator is doing nothing other than playing the "Draw-Dig for answer-Go" game for however many turns it takes to find their 1-3 answers they maybe boarded in. This is exactly where the Cage player wants to be; you able to advance your board position freely while the Reanimator player can't actually play Magic until they find their 1-3 answers.

[wcm8]

Someone really needs to tell these people that saying, "You can play anything in Legacy" does a disservice to all the people watching this video for advice.

The impression I got was that Martell lumped all aggro decks together as being linear strategies that attempt to go from 20 to 0 as fast as possible, and that generally speaking, all are poor choices for the current metagame. I think that's a fair way of viewing them -- Affinity, Zoo, Kithkins, and [insert random aggro deck here] only differ slightly in the way they go about enacting this plan, and all are going to struggle against fast combo and control decks with sweepers and/or Batterskull.

Really, there seems to be very little incentive in playing any of these decks. RUG has a flying 3/2 and a 3/3 shroud for one and still gets to play counter magic and burn. Maverick has a high density of disruptive creatures and a tutor card that can find the majority of them. Turning guys sideways without disruption is a losing strategy right now.

[wcm8]

Exactly. A Cage means that Reanimator is doing nothing other than playing the "Draw-Dig for answer-Go" game for however many turns it takes to find their 1-3 answers they maybe boarded in. This is exactly where the Cage player wants to be; you able to advance your board position freely while the Reanimator player can't actually play Magic until they find their 1-3 answers.

This being the case, why then isn't Leyline of the Void a fair card for consideration? If the idea is that you're going to mulligan for your hate anyways (I mean.. you pretty much have to against Dredge and Reanimator), why not play the card that can't be countered/discarded/requires 0 mana [thus not letting you have t1 Spell Pierce mana/protection from Daze]? They'll be forced to dig for an answer just like cage, however the difference is that they can't be Entombing/Dredging/Careful Studying in any meaningful way while they search for the bounce/Nature's Claim.

[cdr]

Someone really needs to tell these people that saying, "You can play anything in Legacy" does a disservice to all the people watching this video for advice. You can only play anything in Legacy if you are so burdened by disposable income that $30 for a tournament entrance fee plus whatever the cost of your accommodations is doesn't faze you. Otherwise, the number of decks you can play and with which you can realistically expect to do well is limited to what they talked about in the video (minus obvious non-starters like Affinity).

I thought the whole myth of Legacy being this wide open format was dispelled by the 5k series and a relatively consistent top-tables metagame, but I guess not.

Martell needs to work on speaking clearly and/or slowing down.

Otherwise, great video.

I thought Martell gave it very fair treatment - he was pretty clear that Griselbrand decks were far and away the best but that you can potentially do fine with other strategies.

[Arsenal]

This being the case, why then isn't Leyline of the Void a fair card for consideration? If the idea is that you're going to mulligan for your hate anyways (I mean.. you pretty much have to against Dredge and Reanimator), why not play the card that can't be countered/discarded/requires 0 mana [thus not letting you have t1 Spell Pierce mana/protection from Daze]? They'll be forced to dig for an answer just like cage, however the difference is that they can't be Entombing/Dredging/Careful Studying in any meaningful way while they search for the bounce/Nature's Claim.

Leylines require it to be in your opening hand for it to be effective. Everything else does not (you'd like to see Cage in your opener, but it isn't a requirement). I'm pretty sure you can see the difference between Leylines and everything else.

[Aggro_zombies]

I thought Martell gave it very fair treatment - he was pretty clear that Griselbrand decks were far and away the best but that you can potentially do fine with other strategies.
He did. Which is why it was jarring for TSG and Martell to say, "Legacy is a format where you can play anything" in between the tier deck discussion and the Land Tax discussion. I mean, they just finished explaining why you can't play anything you want!

EDIT: I guess TSG was mostly the guilty party here. But still, someone needs to tell him that.

[Arsenal]

Although some strategies (ie. Griselbrand) are superior to others, that doesn't mean that a Goblins list can't take down the whole thing. As long as it's at least fringe competitive (tier 2/3), you have a shot.

[Aggro_zombies]

Although some strategies (ie. Griselbrand) are superior to others, that doesn't mean that a Goblins list can't take down the whole thing. As long as it's at least fringe competitive (tier 2/3), you have a shot.
Well, sure. And you have a shot of paying for your retirement by winning the lottery. That doesn't mean that it's a good idea to invest in lottery tickets instead of, say, bonds.

Tier one decks are tier one decks precisely because they have the best chances of putting you into the top tables and keeping you there. Sure, if you get lucky you can steer Aggro Loam to a money finish, but your life will be infinitely easier if you pick a tier one deck and just sideboard correctly. It's hard to build working metagame decks in Legacy because of how random the field will be at the start (meaning you can get eliminated early despite the day two meta being extremely favorable to you), so it's really not worth it to try. You should pick one of the top decks, master it, and play that.

EDIT: I should stress that I think almost all of Martell's analysis is right on the money. The "wide open Legacy" fallacy is more just a pet peeve of mine than anything.

[Dark Ritual]

Not surprising to me at all that CFB are on reanimator, griselbrand.dec is the most powerful thing you can be doing in legacy right now by far. Thresh is a fair deck by comparison as well as everything else. As soon as griselbrand enters play, it typically spells good game for the person facing down griselbrand barring corner cases such as a low life total for the griselbrand player and a StP from the opponent while the grisel player lacks any protection. It's just that people haven't caught on to griselbrand being the best thing in legacy currently, it was the same case with survival vengevine. I was skeptical of that deck at first, and then was proven wrong a few months later when it started to dominate the american legacy scene.

[from Cairo]

Great watch tbh, but I feel with all the Guilded Drake love and the obvious bro-crush on Griselbrand, Martell does a bit of a disservice towards Goblins by lumping them in with Affininty and Burn as being a 20-to-0 deck, when they have a Demonic Tutor and Stingscourger which seems every bit as live as Drake (and more live than Dispatch being immune to Spell Pierce and Misdirection) given Vial and Cavern to push through resolution during relevant turns 2-4.

This oversight may be directly related to his admitted playstyle dis-interest/like/understanding of non-Blue creature oriented decks, per his section of Maverick, where he basically said it's a "Kibler" deck, no doubt good, but not something he plays.

For the most part his analysis seemed on point. It was especially nice to see a pro really break down why Land Tax is "durdley" IE spending 2 cards, 2-3 mana, retarding one's mana base/development - all to get +3 CA is garbage in Griselbrand.format. I was surprised that Land Tax got any excitement given RUG and Griselbrand, but it's always nice (adds credibility) to see store sponsored pro players dispelling hype too.

[Humphrey]

Well I dont agree with him on SneakShow, I think this deck is better than Reanimator, because its not weak to graveyard hate and Show and Tell needs different answers than Sneak Attack/Through the Breach. (Gilded Drake sucks here)

Also they are wrong with Foil you can discard 2 Islands with it.
And I like the Mox D/Landtax ramp. Maybe we will see a working list with it.

I think he is correct with goblins beeing the best "linear" deck and I dont see any linear deck placing T8. Maybe well see Merfolk T16


My prediction of T8:

1 sneakshow
1 stormcombo
2 rug
2 esper
1 uw miracle
1 randomcombo/reanimator

[Amon Amarth]

If my opponent is casting Show and Tell there is no other deck I'd want to be than Goblins. No other deck can break the asymmetry of that card so easily. They have no removal MD so Caverns -> Lackey is brutal. SS/Gempalm solve GB pretty easily.

I think Martell was mostly correct (I think, hard to understand him at times). Although I do think Elves is probably a bit better than he thinks because I really don't see people boarding specifically for that deck.

Sam Black's Zombie deck is the quintessential Legacy deck. So much janky goodness!

[I am the brainwasher]

If my opponent is casting Show and Tell there is no other deck I'd want to be than Goblins. No other deck can break the asymmetry of that card so easily. They have no removal MD so Caverns -> Lackey is brutal. SS/Gempalm solve GB pretty easily.

I was quite surprised what the little green men are capable of in that MU too. There are a lot of ways that Goblins can race or handle Jizzle/Emrakul. Cavern of Souls is real boss here, enabling Lackey, and Stingscourger. Outside of an early Sneak Attack that plants both bastards, the MU is definetly not that horrible.

@Reanimator vs. Sneak Show:
Reanimator is way on top in terms of its powerlevel and I suspect some awesome sb-Tech from CFB. I am not convinced CalebD is going to play it though, bet he's on the RUG-train again (Whoo!).

[heroicraptor]

Sam Black's Zombie deck is the quintessential Legacy deck. So much janky goodness!

And it's so much fun to play.