Golden Age

[k2thej]

Golden Age is an aggro tempo/prison deck that has built-in combo stopping power and control crushing power. It is a deck with minimal non-creatures spells, which maximizes the deck's creature-based advantages. It uses cards like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Glowrider, Thorn of Amethyst, and Heartwood Storyteller(from the board) to gain serious advantages over decks with non-creature spells.

Golden Age gets its name from the time period of human flourishing. It is a human deck.

The idea of it is to use the control-crushing benefits of aggro, together with the combo-stopping power of thalia, glowrider, and thorn's tax effects. Hopefully, this will get the deck the benefits of each and the weaknesses of neither.

Here is the list:

Lands (22):
2 Bayou
4 Cavern of souls
1 Forest
1 plains
4 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures (31):
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Glowrider
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Artifacts (7):
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 batterskull
4 Thorn of Amethyst


SB:
2 Ethersworn canonist
2 Heartwood Storyteller
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Meddling Mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Riders of Gavony
2 Mirran crusader
2 Terravore


The longer the game goes on, the better this deck does. Thorn, Thalia, Glowrider and Wasteland make it go on longer than usual.

-Great card advantage from confidant, stoneforge, and shardless agent

-Great tempo advantage from Thalia, Glowrider, and Thorn

-Good beats from stoneforge's equipment, mirran crusader, and Knight

-Protection from mother of runes

-Cavern of souls makes everyone except stoneforge uncounterable, and once the tax effects+wastelands are in they won't have the mana to counter stoneforge

-Against aggro we need to board in more beef from the board (terravore for now) to replace the tax effects, since they won't be much help against similar decks like maverick.

Thanks to everyone's input this deck isn't rough anymore, it's actually kind of kickass.

[Mirrislegend]

-2 Heartwood
-3 BoP
-1 SoFI
+4 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Jitte
+1 BSkull

Cuts:
8 mana birds is wicked unnecessary, ESPECIALLY with 23 lands.

Heartwood is cute, but doesn't win the game, and you already have stellar card advantage.

I can tell you from hard earned experience that Sword of Fire and Ice is NOT as awesome as it looks, these days

Additions:
The whole point of slowing down the opponent is that you can kill them while they try to catch up. Knight is your best option to bring the big beats.

You're playing Stoneforge without Jitte? Shame on you!

You're playing 4x Stoneforge without Batterskull? Shame on you!


Btw, everything I've mentioned comes from extensive experience, so please consider my input very seriously for your greatest success.

[k2thej]

-2 Heartwood
-3 BoP
-1 SoFI
+4 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Jitte
+1 BSkull

Cuts:
8 mana birds is wicked unnecessary, ESPECIALLY with 23 lands.

Heartwood is cute, but doesn't win the game, and you already have stellar card advantage.

I can tell you from hard earned experience that Sword of Fire and Ice is NOT as awesome as it looks, these days

Additions:
The whole point of slowing down the opponent is that you can kill them while they try to catch up. Knight is your best option to bring the big beats.

You're playing Stoneforge without Jitte? Shame on you!

You're playing 4x Stoneforge without Batterskull? Shame on you!


Btw, everything I've mentioned comes from extensive experience, so please consider my input very seriously for your greatest success.

Ya Jitte is great-the swords work well with crusader but I know there's only two of him. really want to keep the noncreature spells to a minimum...batterskull isn't really needed. I know how good jitte is though, maybe I'll put that in.

Storyteller is so good! I've never had an opponent with a counter let him in. He's terrifying to see on the board.

[Mirrislegend]

Ya Jitte is great-the swords work well with crusader but I know there's only two of him. really want to keep the noncreature spells to a minimum...batterskull isn't really needed. I know how good jitte is though, maybe I'll put that in.

Storyteller is so good! I've never had an opponent with a counter let him in. He's terrifying to see on the board.

Batterskull may not be crucial, but it is THE BEST. It changes all 4 Stoneforge slots into serious threats. The card swings games. It changes everything in the game state. If you're playing 4x Stoneforge, there is ZERO reason not to play Batterskull

EDIT:
I hear what you're saying about Heartwood. But he doesn't win the game, which is your goal. I can see how he's a control crusher, so just move him to the SB!

[k2thej]

Batterskull may not be crucial, but it is THE BEST. It changes all 4 Stoneforge slots into serious threats. The card swings games. It changes everything in the game state. If you're playing 4x Stoneforge, there is ZERO reason not to play Batterskull

Ok I'll test it. I'll add it to the list for now.

[k2thej]

Ya maybe I'll split Heartwood 2/2 in the sideboard

What are your thoughts on dungrove elder? Every land I play is a forest...Hexproof is so good, especially on a big guy like him.

Forgot to point out that the mana dorks allow T2 storyteller, which makes him a lot better.

Edit: Using dungrove elder instead of knight- he is better in this deck for reasons that I put in the primer.

[Freggle]

k2thej I see you picked up my affinity for Heartwood Storyteller.

The card can be really really good. This deck is however missing removal, and over the long haul that can pose a problem.

This deck is similar to a deck I saw on here that I was excited about called Mankind the thread can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23942-DECK-Mankind&highlight=mankind).

Also, see if there is anyhting you can get out of my version of treefolk (shaman)here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22533-Deck-Motherf-n-Treefolk!&p=655418#post655418).

There are a lot of similarities between all three of these decks, and yous is a blend of the two mentioned above. I think the blend currently makes it weaker than either of these two, having not played it though would you feel the same?

One thing to keep in mind is Descendants' Path is a very powerful card. It provides richness of draw (placing non-beatz on the bottom. It casts fatties for free... so it's pretty insane in the right deck. Right now your tribe is a little too all over the place to use it. ...but I think with some tweaking you can.

[Mirrislegend]

Ten fetches tends to favor KotR pretty heavily. I'd suggest cutting down on fetches if you want to use Dungrove

[k2thej]

I think I like this build better because it doesn't need many pieces to get going. Most of the cards in this deck are very good on their own, and it doesn't need a lot to get going. The treefolk build is cool, but much too slow for legacy- it will lose to every combo deck every game. Mankind is cool, but not as creature-focused as this build. Golden Age uses more creature-advantage than the other two. Thorn and Talia together do much more than either of them on their own. I think this build is a lot stronger-test it and see if you still think the others are better.

@Mirrislegend- Need fetches for color correction.

[Mirrislegend]

Yes, you need them for colors, but too many fetches will keep Dungrove from growing past 2. Fewer fetches, combined with your high land count and high dual count will work just fine and keep your Dungroves buff and healthy

[Kich867]

Yes, you need them for colors, but too many fetches will keep Dungrove from growing past 2. Fewer fetches, combined with your high land count and high dual count will work just fine and keep your Dungroves buff and healthy

Elder requires 3 to play.

[Mirrislegend]

Elder requires 3 to play.

I'm aware. He can cast it off a mana birds. I was referring to the number of lands you stick when you're playing 10 fetches

[k2thej]

Mathematically speaking, playing more fetches (to a point) won't decrease the number of lands you have out. It's the same reason that playing more fetches in non-combo decks to thin out the deck doesn't work.

[Mirrislegend]

Mathematically speaking, playing more fetches (to a point) won't decrease the number of lands you have out. It's the same reason that playing more fetches in non-combo decks to thin out the deck doesn't work.

Uh, it definitely does work. A lot. What kind of Legacy have you been playing that you haven't seen thinning via fetches in action?

[Kich867]

Uh, it definitely does work. A lot. What kind of Legacy have you been playing that you haven't seen thinning via fetches in action?

? What legacy have you been playing where that actually does anything? Fetches are used for influencing your mana base, not to thin the deck out. It's been proven time and time again that fetching has almost no impact on deck thinning.

It's not worth it and it never has been. Ever.

[Mirrislegend]

? What legacy have you been playing where that actually does anything? Fetches are used for influencing your mana base, not to thin the deck out. It's been proven time and time again that fetching has almost no impact on deck thinning.

It's not worth it and it never has been. Ever.

When I fetch 3 times in a game, I see significantly fewer lands after that. Hell, I've seen it in T2, with no deck manipulation (Brainstorm, etc) at all

[Kich867]

When I fetch 3 times in a game, I see significantly fewer lands after that. Hell, I've seen it in T2, with no deck manipulation (Brainstorm, etc) at all

Anecdotal evidence doesn't really beat math. There's been countless delves into this topic, they've all resulted in fetch lands not really mattering. It's been proven. We don't need to do this again.

[Bidbid]

(sorry for the bad english)
Congratulations Sir, finally a fresh and beautiful deck :smile:
My 2 cents

3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
4 Dark Confidant
2 Heartwood Storyteller
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Birds of Paradise

SB:
2 Heartwood Storyteller
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Windborn Muse

Also,Swords to plowshares?

Cristian.

[k2thej]

Cool stuff. Goyf isn't that good in this deck since we don't put many cards in the yard (hopefully), and especially not many card types.

[k2thej]

Just added 2 Shardless Agent to the list...wow that card is good.

[Bidbid]

I finded goyf really powerful,but,if we want to expand the original idea,we can add 4 Glowrider

[Mirrislegend]

I finded goyf really powerful,but,if we want to expand the original idea,we can add 4 Glowrider

A great idea, except now the 3 cc slot is FLOODED. This deck needs some curve help badly

[k2thej]

A great idea, except now the 3 cc slot is FLOODED. This deck needs some curve help badly

Agreed. There are plenty of AWESOME 3ccs in this deck, and it's not as big a deal because of the hierarchs and birds, but we definitely don't need more. Also, glowrider just isn't worth 3 mana.

[Anusien]

Anecdotal evidence doesn't really beat math. There's been countless delves into this topic, they've all resulted in fetch lands not really mattering. It's been proven. We don't need to do this again.
It is worth pointing out that their effect is negligible but non-zero.

That said, fetches will only contain the size of Dungrove Elder if you run out of lands, more or less.

[k2thej]

Ya I mean it's basically like this:

P1-fetches effect on dungrove elder is negligible
P2-fetches effect on color correcting is huge
C-Use fetches

lawlz

[k2thej]

This deck is testing incredible well, but I think it could use another useful 1-drop for the curve. Ideas? hierarch, birds, and mother are good, but they make 10 1-drops total. Maybe a 2-3 of? I don't think the deck needs top, and this is not an aether vial deck-that's that makes it good-it's faster than vial. What other one drops do you guys think might be good?

[Nihil Credo]

-Dungrove Elder is better than knight in this deck- you have more lands on the field than in the GY, all your lands are forests, and he has HEXPROOF. He is way better than he looks.Those are valid reasons, but do you have to have those reasons? That is, why not play Wastelands (and possibly a Karakas)? You're only splashing for Dark Confidant (and you have Birds to help), and the mana denial plan has a lot to offer when you're already running Thalia + Thorn.

[from Cairo]

Qasali Pridemage seems like it should have some slots in the 75. It gives you some utility against randomness, and complements the bears plan, while Exalted is filthy with Knight of the Reliquary and Dungrove Elder.

Have you tried Fauna Shaman at all? Might not be worth it looking at the later lists, but it seems like an alright addition if you're tying slots up with mana acceleration and when running cards like Heartwood Storyteller that are going to be less than great facing Goblins or Maverick, etc.

Another idea that could be used by itself or in conjunction with Fauna Shaman would be to run some 187 guys for removal. Stand alone, Shriekmaw is probably strongest versus other creature decks, Fleshbag Merauder against Reanimator/Show and Tell, paired with Fauna Shaman Big Game Hunter .

All of this may be too reactive for what you are looking to do, just some ideas.

[k2thej]

***Updated Decklist in Primer***

[Mirrislegend]

A pro recently wrote an article about how Stoneforge Mystic is anti-tempo. You should look into it. The original G/W tempo idea was great, but now I have no idea WHY you're making these changes. Are you testing against diverse, competitive decks?

[k2thej]

The only changes I made were adding wasteland, swapping one birds for a qawwali, and swapping dungrove for Geist of saint traft (since same cmc and he proof but Geist has 6 power and dungrove doesn't usually get there). How are these changes bad?

[k2thej]

Ok BIG change in the primer. I took a much more human-based approach when I realized I seriously underestimated Glowrider. The deck is a lot more focused, and much better now. Check the primer.

Combo-If we can resolve any of the tax effects we pretty much win.
Control-Pretty much same deal, and need to get out enough threats. Heartwood storyteller helps from the board.
Aggro- Tough matchup but still very winnable, need beats from the board to replace tax effects-especially thorn.

[laxkiddan]

Looks pretty solid. If you're trying to add another 1 drop, have you considered student of warfare ? There's not an obvious card to replace. Maybe Mirran Crusader?

What cards (creature type) are you protecting against with riders of gavony?

Also, two bad, unrelated, personal suggestions: Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero and grand abolisher

[moobs]

I like sword of light and shadow but what about fire and ice. I gives you even more card advantage if you don't have confidant out mother of runes can't give protection on light and shadow.

However, I think war and peace is also something to consider too. It cant be protected by mother of runes like light&shadow, but it has potential since your opponent will often have a big hand.

[Vacrix]

Quirion Rangers looks like it would be sick in this. It combos with Mother of Runes to protect your team and Noble Hierarch to produce extra mana each turn, especially if you missed a land drop and want to replay it. Also, it protects your mana base from Wasteland. You could also use it with Knight of the Reliquary if you want to use a turn to pump him up or double Wasteland the opponent + Glowrider and/or Thalia to lock them out or make playing any non-creature spells really difficult.

You could go Scryb Rangers instead if you want to chump Delvers and Merfolk all day long.

I'd probably go
-2 Avacyn Pilgrim
+2 Quirion Rangers

[k2thej]

Those are some cool combos with ranger, but it is really important to get the extra mana from the mana dorks. Plus, ranger isn't a human and sometimes cavern is only color source in hand, not a huge deal but worth mentioning.

War and peace looks cool. Has the best two colors to have protection from for removal.

I thought about student, it's really good but this deck tends to spend all it's mana. Could be helpful late game though.

[Mirrislegend]

First off, ME GUSTA! I like the deck a lot now.

War and Peace is NOT worth it in this format. Each player ends up with very few cards in hand, so it's abilities are fairly useless.

Fire and Ice is good, but in a creature heavy deck, Light and Shadow recurrs everything you could ask for. In comparison, to get value out of Fire and Ice, you need to hope the draw trigger provides what you need.

Personally, I'd cut one Mirran Crusader for the 4th Mother of Runes. Despite 6 mana dudes, your 3 slot is still prettty full. Also, Mom is INSANE on offense or defense, whereas Mirran tends to be win more offense with no defensive worth.

[k2thej]

That's a good point about crusader. He's insane with equipment tho...

People have more cards in hand than normal in this deck though with 12 taxes and 4 wastes. Dunno if it's enough for war and peace to be worth it, gotta test.

[Heresy]

What do you think replacing Weathered Wayfarer for Knight of the Reliquary, reducing your curve but still able to fetch key lands. EDIT : I think Champion of the Parish has the potential to be big and I wish Aether Vial had a place somewhere (maybe in the board). Also, Granger Guildmage and Thornscape Apprentice if you want to splash red. Wayfarer + Sylvan Safekeeper is nice. All at cmc 1 to lower the curve a little.

[klaus]

Nice list. I've been trying to create a deck based on Thalia and Glow Rider for a while - w/o much success though.
Your approach is very focussed (adding Thorns), which I digg.
Below is a modified list, which hopefully inspires you guys.

Lands (21):
3 Cavern of souls
1 Forest
1 plains
3 Savannah
1 Horizon Canpoy
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand (fetching basic Plains)
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas (paramount for Show&Tell infested metas like we're experiencing atm, also combos with Thalia and Gaddock)

Creatures (31):
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Phyrexian Revoker (replacing Crusaders due to the previously greedy curve and Revoker's awesomeness)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Swords to Plowshares (absolutely vital against dedicated Aggro strategies, esp. RUG)
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Mother of Runes (protecting your equipped guys and tax bears, she really is key and needs to be maxed out)
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic (the full playset slows the deck down a tad too much imo)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Glowrider (-1 w/o Vial more than 7 CMC3 guys are too many. I'm stating that backed up by thorough play testing with similar shells - also I'd count SFM as CMC3 adding up to a total of 11)

Artifacts (6):
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 batterskull
4 Thorn of Amethyst

SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg (EE is a pain in the butt, since it can be played for 0 with 2 colors still giving it sunburst 2 and: TERMINUS...)
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Qasali Pridemage (w/o library manipulation, you're likely to not find SB 2 ofs g2/3 - definitely better than Mangara)
1 STP
3 Surgical Extraction (Dredge and Reanimator are a huge issue for this deck. And most alternatives are too slow, i.e. Loaming Shaman)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 flex slot

I've opted to cut those 4 off-color Confidants, since they especially shine against control, which should generally be a positive MU already.

[Vacrix]

Those are some cool combos with ranger, but it is really important to get the extra mana from the mana dorks. Plus, ranger isn't a human and sometimes cavern is only color source in hand, not a huge deal but worth mentioning.
Do you understand how Rangers works? He does give you extra mana. You return a Forest/Savannah/Bayou etc. to your hand, untap Noble Hierarch, then you can replay the forest +2 mana. Thats more than Avacyn Pilgrim can produce with synergy. Without Synergy, you can produce +1 mana if you haven't played a land because you can tap the land, bounce it and then replay it for the turn.

Rangers not being playable off Cavern is usually going to be irrelevant most of the time when you play 22 lands and Noble Hierarch.. though I'd cut it down to 20 lands and play more mana dorks instead because Quirion Rangers is way too good to leave out of this list.

I'm not sure you've played with Quirion Rangers and Mother of Runes in the same deck. Sometimes, Mother of Runes gives a creature protection from red in response to a Bolt or Chain, then it gets killed by a Bolt and all your creatures are vulnerable. With Quirion Rangers, you make them have to work a little harder to kill your team. Not only can you use Mother of Runes to make fatties like KoTR and Scavenging Ooze unblockable but then you can untap them on your turn, replay your land, and pass to the opponent with an untapped fat guy and a Mother of Runes activation still available. Its completely nuts, especially with equipment. Mother of Runes + Quirion Rangers and a Jitte gets there, especially when you can untap the Rangers to block and acquire more Jitte counters. Just sayn those who think Mother of Runes is insane hasn't run into Lightning Bolt + Snapcaster Mage. No card disadvantage there and it happens all the time. Rangers + Mom stops that shit and then some.

I'd actually try a much tighter manabase. 22 lands is too many. Your curve stops at 3 as you can Stoneforge your equpiment into play. Try going down to 20 lands and run both Avacyn Pilgrim and Quirion Rangers so produce a faster mana base thats not as dependent on lands. The synergy between Quirion Rangers and a single mana dork produces quite a bit of mana. Say all you have is a Savannah in hand when you start the game. You play it, you play Avacyn Pilgrim. Next turn you play Quirion Rangers with the Savannah, tap the Avacyn Pilgrim for W, bounce and replay the Savannah, and tap both again to produce an additional WG, leaving you at the end with WWG. That means 2nd turn Glow Rider, 2nd turn Knight, perhaps Mother of Runes + Stoneforge. Powerful plays. It can make the deck really explosive because its kinda like having a manadork with haste. If you wanted, you could also play a different land after bouncing the Savannah, like Cavern of Souls, and then cast a Glowrider/Thalia with the Cavern to protect it from countermagic.

Quirion Rangers also protects your manabase from Wasteland so you have natural protection each turn, not to mention the manadorks. Though I don't think the opponent will sac Wasteland against you often if they see you are playing both Glowrider and Thalia.

KoTR + Rangers gives him +4/+4 per turn as you can play fetchlands to find 2 lands per turn. If you already are sitting on a lot of lands, it could be as much as +6/+6 if you also activate Rangers on your opponent's turn. That means you can surprise an opponent by turning say, a 4/4 Knight into a 10/10 Knight after you pass back to your turn. This combo also enables double Wasteland on your turn, as well as finding the 3rd on your opponents turn before the drawstep. Pretty brutal if you already have Thalia/Glowrider in play.

Also, he's a much better topdeck than what you want to run in its place. If you are trying to race, say, a bunch of Merfolk lords with a single fat Ooze or Knight, an Avacyn Pilgrim mid to late game does no better than produce +1 white and chump block some dudes.. while Rangers can give your fat guy vigilance that way you have something to block with. Also, when you only have Mother of Runes in play, its not quite as good compared to when it has something to protect or make unblockable. Otherwise its just a chump blocker that can give itself protection. Topdecking a Quirion Rangers, however, basically gives you +1 Mother of Runes and then you have 2 chump blockers that can have protection. Another mishap you can run into is Crucible/Loam lock with Wasteland. Quirion Rangers can bounce the land they target with Wasteland meaning they'll have a much harder time getting rid of your lands, especially since if you want to respond to Rangers ability, returning the Forest is part of the cost. In this case, Pilgrim would be +1 white mana, but Rangers would save your entire mana base as well as combo with a mana dork if you draw one to leave you with 4 mana each turn. ie. tap land/dork, bounce land, untap dork replay land for turn.

[Darkenslight]

Given the Rangers interaction, could it not perhaps be better to use Ghost Quarter to reduce your opponent's capacity to play?

[klaus]

Given the Rangers interaction, could it not perhaps be better to use Ghost Quarter to reduce your opponent's capacity to play?
I don't get your point.

[k2thej]

@Vacrix- Yep. You win haha. Epic post. I'll include ranger in the primer instead of Pilgrim.

[klaus]

@Vacrix- Yep. You win haha. Epic post. I'll include ranger in the primer instead of Pilgrim.
No love for my input? ... makes me a sad panda pup.

Edit: no offense, but to make the OP "primerish" you'd have to invest a couple more analytical paragraphs.

[k2thej]

No love for my input? ... makes me a sad panda pup.

Edit: no offense, but to make the OP "primerish" you'd have to invest a couple more analytical paragraphs.

Still catching up on the posts! I love your input too<33333333

Will add more to primer soon.

[k2thej]

@Klaus- Taking out confidant is a big change, I gotta think about it. It certainly makes the mana base more stable (and saves me some money!). I'm just worried that the deck won't have the staying power against control. Uncounterable confidants from cavern are preeeetty good.

I haven't tested scavenging ooze enough. Better than crusader?

[klaus]

I haven't tested scavenging ooze enough. Better than crusader?
200%. There's a reason Maverick lists run multiple Ooze copies and hardly ever Crusader.

[k2thej]

Alright I do like that that lowers the curve, but the double strike with equip is so good...maybe it's win more? Sigh, I suppose I'll put ooze in over crusader haha.

Edit: I forgot about the other thing I like about Crusader: He is a human! Cavern is so good and I think keeping as many humans as possible is a very good idea.

[k2thej]

Also do you think revoker is better than meddling mage given that mage is a human? The reason I mage could be good in this deck is because since we are taxing all noncreature spells, we can focus on naming the key creatures of the opponent's deck.

[klaus]

Also do you think revoker is better than meddling mage given that mage is a human?
For sure. Also getting blue exclusively off Cavern and Hierarch is not sufficiently reliable. Don't get caught on the "danger of cool things train".
Cavern + humans = definitely nice, but limiting yourself to humans is not wise if there are (some) better guys around.

Edit: I like that Revoker deals with resolved permanents (i. e. Top, Jace, Deed and the likes)

[k2thej]

For sure. Also getting blue exclusively off Cavern and Hierarch is not sufficiently reliable. Don't get caught on the "danger of cool things train".
Cavern + humans = definitely nice, but limiting yourself to humans is not wise if there are (some) better guys around.

Edit: I like that Revoker deals with resolved permanents (i. e. Top, Jace, Deed and the likes)

This is a good point.

[k2thej]

If I'm going to take out confidant I'd like to replace him with things that are going to win the game. I don't like the idea of having only 8 finishers (4 stoneforge+4knight) without the card advantage he provided. Moreso since I took out crusader. Thoughts?

[Mirrislegend]

If I'm going to take out confidant I'd like to replace him with things that are going to win the game. I don't like the idea of having only 8 finishers (4 stoneforge+4knight) without the card advantage he provided. Moreso since I took out crusader. Thoughts?

Keep Confidant. Once you stabilize against more aggressive decks, he simply wins the game. He terrorizes control. Ensures you hit your Thorn cards and SB cards against combo. He is amazing. Don't cut him.

[k2thej]

Keep Confidant. Once you stabilize against more aggressive decks, he simply wins the game. He terrorizes control. Ensures you hit your Thorn cards and SB cards against combo. He is amazing. Don't cut him.

Ya he is super good. Just thinking about the stability of the mana base though...I guess it's worth it to keep him.

[klaus]

If I'm going to take out confidant I'd like to replace him with things that are going to win the game. I don't like the idea of having only 8 finishers (4 stoneforge+4knight) without the card advantage he provided. Moreso since I took out crusader. Thoughts?

To me "Golden Age" is based on a blend of Maverick, Death and Taxes + Thorn.
None of these decks need "Oops I win" cards, since they're based on complex/straight forward synergies. With G.A., being an even more dedicated prison deck, you'll have to think less in a vacuum more like a Stax player.
At the end of the day it's all about optimizing your Prison+Aggro strategy.

Edit:

Keep Confidant. Once you stabilize against more aggressive decks, he simply wins the game. He terrorizes control. Ensures you hit your Thorn cards and SB cards against combo. He is amazing. Don't cut him.
Then why doesn't Maverick run him?

[k2thej]

Edit:

Then why doesn't Maverick run him?

Because they have GSZ. Golden Age can't run it because we have too many nongreen creatures and it is a noncreature spell. We need creature-based card advantage because of the nature of the deck, so confidant (and storyteller in the board) is the obvious choice.

[klaus]

Because they have GSZ. Golden Age can't run it because we have too many nongreen creatures and it is a noncreature spell. We need creature-based card advantage because of the nature of the deck, so confidant (and storyteller in the board) is the obvious choice.
Bob & GSZ fulfill completely different purposes, namely CQ VS. CA.
You could compare Bob to Sylvan Library, but then they only run like 1..

[k2thej]

Not really-in Maverick GSZ gets the deck the creatures it needs- thats what bob does here.

[klaus]

Not really-in Maverick GSZ gets the deck the creatures it needs- thats what bob does here.
Your logic is flawed: every kind of card advantage will obviously give you a wider selection of choices, but Bob is raw CA in the first place and GSZ is a tutor (raw CQ).
Anyway if your meta is Wasteland light, you might get away with relying on a more fragile mana base.

Some more input on the win-more argument:
- against Control he tends to improve an already positive MU
- against Aggro he'll be problematic since you'll find yourself low on life with a hand full of creatures you cannot cast in time (partly due to the lack of Vial)
- he's cool VS mid-range decks, but there are superb alternatives in a straight GW version.

[k2thej]

Right I get the difference, but what I'm saying is that raw CA in this deck does what tutors do in Maverick. Anyway, confidant makes sure we have enough ammo, and since there's no other CA or manipulation or anything, I think it is a good idea to keep him.

[klaus]

Right I get the difference, but what I'm saying is that raw CA in this deck does what tutors do in Maverick. Anyway, confidant makes sure we have enough ammo, and since there's no other CA or manipulation or anything, I think it is a good idea to keep him.
Revoker, SFM and the taxing effects (in a subtle way) all feature C/A. :cool:

[k2thej]

Revoker, SFM and the taxing effects (in a subtly way) all feature C/A. :cool:

Interesting definition of card advantage. I see what you mean. Still though, confidant is mad good.

[Vacrix]

@Vacrix- Yep. You win haha. Epic post. I'll include ranger in the primer instead of Pilgrim.
Try to see if you can drop 2 lands to keep in the 2 Pilgrims. Its not that Pilgrim is bad but that Quirion Rangers is really, really good. So if you have 6 dorks, then you have better chances of getting that nuts Rangers + Hierarch/Pilgrim play. Also, being able to accelerate into a fast turn 2 play makes this deck more appealing to me. Quirion Rangers is only effective as a mana dork on its own if you've missed a land drop.


Concerning Confidant.. he quite strong and most deck that play him have a difficult time protecting him because they use countermagic while you can use Mother of Runes, and potentially Quirion Rangers to get the full value out of Mom.

[k2thej]

Ranger doesn't really make your turn 2 faster though. If you have 2 lands it's the same thing- you get 3 mana on turn 2, the only difference is ranger is now on the field too, which is sweet. Just wanted to point out that if you don't miss a land drop then ranger doesn't really accelerate aside from putting herself on the field for free.

[Vacrix]

Faster in the sense of consistency. You can keep a hand with one land more easily if it also has Rangers in it.

[phazonmutant]

How does this deck beat Maverick or Goblins? You play pretty much the same cards as them, but your non-creature hate doesn't really affect them and they get real removal. I'm not super familiar with GW men decks, so definitely possible I'm not seeing something.

[Mirrislegend]

How does this deck beat Maverick or Goblins? You play pretty much the same cards as them, but your non-creature hate doesn't really affect them and they get real removal. I'm not super familiar with GW men decks, so definitely possible I'm not seeing something.

Vs Maverick, this deck's biggest advantage is Dark Confidant. If the decks do more or less the same thing, but we draw more cards, then we win. Also, we turn off GSZ, which is their biggest strength.

Vs Goblins, Stoneforge just gets you there. It just carries the game all on its own, straight to victory.

[k2thej]

Ya what Mirri said, plus we can board out the thorns for some fatties from the board. Still figuring out what those fatties should be, probably crusader? He kills maverick. I also have riders of galvony in there right now, but I know they're quite expensive at 4. They sure seem great for merfolk and gobs though.

[klaus]

Vs Maverick, this deck's biggest advantage is Dark Confidant. If the decks do more or less the same thing, but we draw more cards, then we win. Also, we turn off GSZ, which is their biggest strength.

Vs Goblins, Stoneforge just gets you there. It just carries the game all on its own, straight to victory.

The Maverick MU should be unfavorable due to Glowrider and Thorn being basically dead draws - that simple.
The Goblins MU is even more unfavorable (esp. w/o MD STPs) due to Glowrider, Thorn and Thalia being dead draws. We're talking about more than a third of the non-land cards here - and trust me SFM doesn't change that.

Dedicated Aggro will remain unfavorable with the current deck's focus - which is okay by me, since it improves several other MUs considerably.

[k2thej]

The Maverick MU should be unfavorable due to Glowrider and Thorn being basically dead draws - that simple.
The Goblins MU is even more unfavorable (esp. w/o MD STPs) due to Glowrider, Thorn and Thalia being dead draws. We're talking about more than a third of the non-land cards here - and trust me SFM doesn't change that.

Dedicated Aggro will remain unfavorable with the current deck's focus - which is okay by me, since it improves several other MUs considerably.

If we board out some hate for killers like riders of gavony or absolute law against gobs though, wouldn't that make up for it?

[klaus]

If we board out some hate for killers like riders of gavony or absolute law against gobs though, wouldn't that make up for it?
Aggro will bring creature hate too. Pre-board, I estimate the MUs like 30/70 and post board 40/60.
On a different note: the printing of Terminus is actually good for GA, since it keeps Swarm Aggro down.

[phazonmutant]

On a different note: the printing of Terminus is actually good for GA, since it keeps Swarm Aggro down.
Not so sure that's true. From talking with a couple friends who popularized UW Miracles in the states and their conversations with Reid Duke (whose brother did well at the GP with Land Tax Miracles and Reid got first at a Super IQ with the same deck), the Goblins matchup is awful. Actually abysmal.

If any card is going to beat goblins, it's Moat, not Terminus. Terminus shines against Maverick (assuming they don't find Teeg) and Thresh.

Are there any other swarm combo decks that you care about? Elves could be difficult maybe?

Maybe you could try Meekstone in the board for Maverick? I think it hurts them more. Engineered Plague would help a bunch against Goblins (it's too bad you have so many humans in your deck, EPlague is good against Maverick too)

[Mirrislegend]

@klaus:
Vs Maverick, those cards are very playable, if not ideal.

Vs Goblins, yes, they're effectively dead draws. Luckily Thalia first strikes and Stoneforge reads as "win the game", so things are not quite as bad as they may seem. Before you go further with those arguments, I suggest trying Stoneforge against Goblins. Afterwards, laugh heartily at their losses

[Freggle]

For pure aggro. Peacekeeper + alt win. Or Natural Order - > Progenitus out of the board are just a few ideas.

[k2thej]

I think against other aggro decks the best bet is to have the boarded in win-con be more fatties. We can board out the thorns for 4 fatties and be pretty fine. It's not like thalia and glowrider do nothing aginst maverick-especially in multiples. It makes it a lot harder for them to green sun and to sword our guys away at least, and they are bodies too.

Peacekeeper sort of changes the whole purpose of the deck, and with an alt win that would take too many sb slots

NO is not a creature, so 4cc+tax effects means it will be too expensive for this deck to cast with any sort of consistency.

Solution: Fatties in the board! Terravore or Crusader seem like good options, especially against maverick.

[klaus]

Solution: Fatties in the board! Terravore or Crusader seem like good options, especially against maverick.
http://images.magicmadhouse.co.uk/images/products/medium/1298912007-93133700.jpg

[k2thej]

Ah I forgot about her. Better than Riders of Gavony?

[klaus]

Definitely. She's proven herself. I haven't seen Riders in a single list - ever. And I don't see anything "hidden-gem-ish" about them either tbh.

[k2thej]

True, but it seems like riders would help a lot more against gobs and fish than linvala would

[k2thej]

Thoughts on E-Plague in the board? Could also do Caller of the Hunt against tribal. Worth it? she is a human too.

[Mirrislegend]

Zealous Persecution ensures your combats are very favorable. It slays all of Maverick's support guys. And it can be a last ditch answer to Lackey, if you were on the play

[k2thej]

Zealous Persecution ensures your combats are very favorable. It slays all of Maverick's support guys. And it can be a last ditch answer to Lackey, if you were on the play

Too expensive with tax effects though. Need creature answers.

[Mirrislegend]

Too expensive with tax effects though. Need creature answers.

Taxes aren't too terrible against Maverick or any of the tribal decks, but they're not so hot either. I was under the impression that you'd be cutting some in those MUs...

[k2thej]

cutting thorns ya. I don't think there is enough relevance in the SB to cut all 12 though. Probably just 4 fatties for the thorns- and maybe linvala.

[k2thej]

What do you guys think of a more D&T approach? Ensures nearly everything is uncounterable with both vial and cavern, and focuses even more on the mana choking. Loses knight, hierarch, and quirion ranger though. Check it out:


Lands (22)
4 Cavern of souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
3 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Creatures (28)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Glowrider
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Spells (10)
1 Batterskull
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial

SB:
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meekstone
9 ?

Not sure which is better yet. Thoughts?

Meekstone seems really great against other creature decks to swap in for thorn since all creatures have power less than 3 except for serra avenger and batterskull who have vigilance.

[Mirrislegend]

@ D&T build: ABORT! ABORT!
That is terrible. Just don't. Pretty please.

The strength of the original deck is acceleration (Hierarch), draw (Confidant), and fat (Knight of the Reliquary). The D&T build drops all of those, but gains next to nothing. Please don't go there

[k2thej]

@ D&T build: ABORT! ABORT!
That is terrible. Just don't. Pretty please.

The strength of the original deck is acceleration (Hierarch), draw (Confidant), and fat (Knight of the Reliquary). The D&T build drops all of those, but gains next to nothing. Please don't go there

Just brainstorming =)

[Mirrislegend]

Just brainstorming =)

Thank goodness!

You've discussed tribal and Maverick a lot. Honestly, Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exiles in the SB are fine options for playing against very aggro decks. Playing against Mav, Fish, or Gobbos? -tax effects, +1 cmc removal = profit

[k2thej]

Thank goodness!

You've discussed tribal and Maverick a lot. Honestly, Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exiles in the SB are fine options for playing against very aggro decks. Playing against Mav, Fish, or Gobbos? -tax effects, +1 cmc removal = profit

True, but the SB needs something to give an advantage not just come closer to being even with them-they have removal too. The thing I liked about meekstone is it's a HUGE advantage, but I understand it's probably not worth the change in the non-aggro matchups.

[k2thej]

Also, By comparison, hierarch really isn't much acceleration. If you play a vial turn 1, on turn two you play a tax effect, which is the same thing you do with hierarch. The acceleration really only comes on t3, when you can play 2 bears. With vial, you can play a 3cmc AND a bear though, or two bears, so what's the difference really? The only time hierarch makes a difference on t2 is if glowrider is the only tax effect in your hand.

[Mirrislegend]

Also, By comparison, hierarch really isn't much acceleration. If you play a vial turn 1, on turn two you play a tax effect, which is the same thing you do with hierarch. The acceleration really only comes on t3, when you can play 2 bears. With vial, you can play a 3cmc AND a bear though, or two bears, so what's the difference really? The only time hierarch makes a difference on t2 is if glowrider is the only tax effect in your hand.

Your stuff is already uncounterable due to Caverns. You don't need the critters as combat tricks. So you're better off with Hierarch due to the way she baits removal and adds Exalted.

Sharp playing, real removal, and Stoneforge will win the tribal MUs. Maverick gets beaten by Confidant into removal. The StPs and PtEs in the SB don't make those matchups even. They truly do give you great opportunity to win