necrowil
07-09-2012, 04:16 PM
Hatred
The purpose of this thread is to see if there is a viable deck build for this deck out there in light of later releases.
1. Hatred and Suicide Black – Hatred and Suicide Black have all but vanished from today’s Legacy scene primarily because the color black has been rewarded little with releases of new cards. If I didn’t know better it would seem R&D has a fear of printing overpowered black cards. Black decks have dominated the Magic environment for longer times then any other decks. Leading to the banning of its man assets Demonic Consultation, Vampiric Tutor and the like and even Dark Ritual a while back in the old Extended. The best black tutor right now is Diabolic Intent, but the drawback of sacrificing a creature makes drawing them in multiples undesirable. After all how many creatures do you want to sacrifice?
Hatred decks need smaller and many would say subpar creatures to win with. Here again, black has been lacking as of late, but there are a few new cards which fit into the deck like Dark Confidant, Diregraf Ghoul, Vampire Lacerator, Gravecrawler and even Vault Skirge but for the most part the creature choice has been thin. Suicide generally favors faster harder hitting creatures backed up by the best discard you can get. Why play Hatred then? Well the deck can still kill someone on Turn 2 if you can figure out how to make it work. Hence, this post.
2. Creatures – You want creatures with evasion and good mana power to cost ratio. Here are some options.
Diregraf Ghoul – A solid replacement for Carnophage or Sarcomancy. You want him out early obviously. But the primary purpose is to make a turn 2 kill a possibility. Turn 1 Swamp, Ghoul, Turn 2 City of Traitors, Dark Ritual, Hatred for 18. If you know your opponent has no counterspells and no removal or he’s tapped out or doesn’t block, there is no better option.
Vampire Lacerator – Also better then Carnophage and Sarcomancy in my opinion for the simple reason he will not cost as much life generally and if your opponent is at 10, then no life loss. Have another type doesn’t hurt either if your opponent runs Engineered Plague.
Gravecrawler – This is a very solid option but makes the deck more vulnerable to Darkblast and Engineered Plague. Darkblast can be a real problem. But the recursive nature is very tempting. You could play all 12 but this leave you vulnerable to Chalice. Gravecrawler is also awesome with Culling the Weak.
Vault Skirge – The only problem with the zombie or 2/2 1cc drops is they can be blocked at times. This is where the Skirge shines. In addition you can cast Hatred on it and possibly get all the life you just paid all back. The flying is good as well. Hatred is all about evasion.
Dauthi Slayer and Dauthi Horror are staple in any Hatred deck. Nothing in the Legacy format can block them and this is key if you are going to kill your opponent. Few if anyone is running shadows. One argument against Dauthi Horror is it has one toughness. After testing it extensively by cutting one, the conclusion I have come to is you need him to make the deck work. If your opponent is playing Fire/Ice just play one at a time so he doesn’t go for 2 for 1.
Blood Pet – Surprisingly this has become a staple in my build. It has a multitude of uses beyond the obvious. Versus Dredge you can sacrifice it to get rid of their bridges. Versus Batterskull you block and sacrifice preventing their life gain. But where I use it most is Daze. Once you get to 5 mana it pays to have this guy their so you don’t have to worry about Daze.
Mesmeric Fiend – Another surprise is how this cards has proven itself in the deck. If you play it on turn 2 vs a deck without a way to block you can take whatever they would use to stop Hatred and then kill them on the next turn. The fact your card removal is a creature comes in handy quite a bit. You may why not run Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek. You can run those too, but I find I can often kill my opponent with this guy after I have seen there hand. Another benefit of Fiend it is immune to Spell Pierce.
Dark Confidant – After testing Dark Confidant extensively with this deck I have found him to be a staple card as well. Sure occasionally you may pull a Hatred but you should be dealing damage every turn to your opponent. But what I like most about Confidant is it’s a removal magnet. Guaranteed, if your opponent can get rid of this card, they will immediately. If they can’t then you probably know they don’t have much to stop Hatred. Works very well.
After this its anyone’s guess for the remaining creatures You want a minimum of 20 depending if not more. If you play all of these there is your 20. Wanted to open it up to discussion but I have reached some conclusions about many of the cards people like in this deck.
The following is a bunch of cards I have tested that did not make the cut and I will list them in the order of preference from the ones I prefer to the least.
Hypnotic Specter
Fledgling Djinn
Oona’s Prowler
Skittering Skirge
Stromgald Crusader
Vampire Interloper
Vault Skirge
Putrid Imp
Signal Pest
Bloodghast
Phyrexian Negator
3. Disruption
One option if you want more discard is to cut some one drops for more discard spells like Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek. This is a solid option and the deck I’m working out played fine this way. However, I have found that after looking at enough hands I pretty much know what it is in them. Sometimes the discard really becomes a dead card as well. Hatred really can’t afford dead cards. But if you want to do that, its not a bad option. It will slow your deck down though and theirs somewhat.
.
Hymn to Tourach is not desired unless you play it in addition to the above. I also dropped Fiend for the above discard and Hymn. Its true Hymn is good against SOME decks but definitely not all and it slows your deck down as well. I have seen some Hatred decks run Hymn in the sideboard because of how good they are against certain decks.
Unmask is a definite option and I tend to favor it over in addition to if not over Duress. If you want more discard. I would play 2 or 3. 4 just seems excessive. The reason I like it better in some regards is it allows you to take their creatures which Duress does not.
Thoughtseize I avoid for obvious reasons. Life is a resource for killing you opponent so you don’t want to lose it.
Cabal Therapy is another option if you want even more but the obvious issue with Therapy is you won’t always know what to name.
Wasteland and Sinkhole
I chose to run Wasteland but I would not say its necessary. There are many options you run in this slot if you cut Wasteland. But I chose to run them because of the following
Grove of Burnwillows
Maze of Ith
There are many more to list but these are the most popular it seems and both can really screw up your plan. Sinkhole some people swear by them and love them, I just don’t think they are necessary for much of the same reason Hymn is not and many people have a lot of alternative mana sources besides land in their decks.
4. Mana
Dark Ritual obviously. Best fast mana in the game.
Culling the Weak if you want faster mana. I used to run this. 3 seems to be the best number to play. You don’t want to draw multiples of this card. If you decide to run this in place of the Blood Pet slot. I would do this.
-4 Blood Pet
+3 Culling the Weak
+1 Lake of the Dead
Lake of the Dead is not really recommended in the deck UNLESS you run at least 17-18 swamps. Its an interesting card that only allows you to kill them on turn 3. If you run it, I would never run more then 1. What will you do if you draw a 2nd? In all likelihood it will be a dead card.
Cabal Ritual is slow. I have seen some decks that run it. If you find your graveyard filling up all the time this may be a good option but 3 max really. I don’t like it.
Lotus Petal is also a solid addition. Hell, other combo decks run it. Why shouldn’t Hatred. The sooner you can get to 5 mana. The better of you will be.
Chrome Mox – Chrome Mox is probably the best option as you can throw extra Hatred to it or an unnecessary Dark Ritual. Diamond I would never recommend. One reason I run Blood Pet over these is Spell Pierce which is very popular now. You need to watch for it also before you cast Hatred.
Other lands I have seen in builds are Peat Bog, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb and Phyrexian Tower. I can go into why I no longer run any of these, but I would not recommend them in this build unless you have extra slots for lands. All of them have considerable drawbacks. But do provide fast mana.
Lions Eye Diamond is interesting but I have yet to see a build that can make it work.
5. Tutors
Really this is a sad selection as black has been gutted as far as tutors because of the stated above tutors.
Diabolic Intent seems to be the last option. 2 or 3 is a good number. After all, how many will you cast in a game? Honestly though, I don’t run them and run the Confidant in this slot.
Grim Tutor costs 3 and 3 life. It’s a very high price to pay for a card. I used to run two Grim and two Diabolic but dropped the Grim after adding Dark Confidant.
Spoils of the Vault is horrible for obvious reasons. I have seen a deck run two but I can’t imagine what kind of environment you would run them in. Maybe if you ran lots of life gain or something? If you could then it might be worth it but probably not. The only reason I mention it is black has few options.
Infernal Tutor is not recommended either. You don’t want to empty your hand for a single card generally. Although one untested option is to dump your hand to Putrid Imp and Oona’s Prowler and cast this for your kill card but that’s not viable either really.
Dark Confidant is not a tutor but it will help you tremendously in setting up your mana base and I love because it is a magnet for Counterspell and removal which helps draw their attention away from your shadow creatures which you can then used to kill them. The deck is very aggressive so often it won’t matter if you pull a Hatred off of a Confidant. I have never pulled more then one in a game.
6. The sideboard
Black has some of the best sideboard options available to deal with a lot of combo decks. And since this is an aggro/combo/control deck in that order you will be well matched against decks seeking to go off and win on turns 1-3. I won’t go into every option here for obvious reasons.
You may be wondering why not more graveyard hate and the truth is you don’t want to delude and slow down the deck to play it. If I were to play something it would be Extirpate. This card allows you to cast at the end of your opponent’s turn to check their hand and go off on your turn if they have nothing. Very handy. But I have not found that I needed it for the same reasons I don’t need discard. I know what they are likely to have. I know all the popular Counterspells and removal. You should too if you choose to play this.l
7. Decklist
Below is the current list I am running which seems to be playing well in testing.
Hatred
Sideboard
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cursed Scroll
3 Perish
2 Spinning Darkness
2 Forsaken Wastes
Main
10 Swamp
4 Pendelhaven
4 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hatred
4 Lotus Petal
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Blood Pet
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Vault Skirge
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
As stated, I am comfortable not playing additional discard spells. Right now U/R Delver is popular and this is fine for that. If Maverick becomes more popular I would probably switch the one drop creatures 2/2 creatures for one drops with some evasion because of Mother of Runes. But for right now this is fine.
8. Mulligan
This deck mulligans well. You want to see a Dark Ritual, Hatred or Dark Confidant in your opening hand. If you don’t, you will probably lose. When these cards are in your opening hand the odds of the deck winning increase dramatically. And burning your Dark Ritual to put down two cards is not always the best move unless one is a Confidant usually. You want to make sure you have mana in case your opponent does something stupid like tap out or empty his hand.
So far I’m pretty happy with the deck. Once I have some tournament results I will post them, but for now it wins over 50% of its matches possibly because I know the deck well and you can’t ask for more then that with a rogue deck like Hatred. Not sure if I want to add graveyard hate or not. We’ll see how it goes.
Peace.
Necrowil
I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
The purpose of this thread is to see if there is a viable deck build for this deck out there in light of later releases.
1. Hatred and Suicide Black – Hatred and Suicide Black have all but vanished from today’s Legacy scene primarily because the color black has been rewarded little with releases of new cards. If I didn’t know better it would seem R&D has a fear of printing overpowered black cards. Black decks have dominated the Magic environment for longer times then any other decks. Leading to the banning of its man assets Demonic Consultation, Vampiric Tutor and the like and even Dark Ritual a while back in the old Extended. The best black tutor right now is Diabolic Intent, but the drawback of sacrificing a creature makes drawing them in multiples undesirable. After all how many creatures do you want to sacrifice?
Hatred decks need smaller and many would say subpar creatures to win with. Here again, black has been lacking as of late, but there are a few new cards which fit into the deck like Dark Confidant, Diregraf Ghoul, Vampire Lacerator, Gravecrawler and even Vault Skirge but for the most part the creature choice has been thin. Suicide generally favors faster harder hitting creatures backed up by the best discard you can get. Why play Hatred then? Well the deck can still kill someone on Turn 2 if you can figure out how to make it work. Hence, this post.
2. Creatures – You want creatures with evasion and good mana power to cost ratio. Here are some options.
Diregraf Ghoul – A solid replacement for Carnophage or Sarcomancy. You want him out early obviously. But the primary purpose is to make a turn 2 kill a possibility. Turn 1 Swamp, Ghoul, Turn 2 City of Traitors, Dark Ritual, Hatred for 18. If you know your opponent has no counterspells and no removal or he’s tapped out or doesn’t block, there is no better option.
Vampire Lacerator – Also better then Carnophage and Sarcomancy in my opinion for the simple reason he will not cost as much life generally and if your opponent is at 10, then no life loss. Have another type doesn’t hurt either if your opponent runs Engineered Plague.
Gravecrawler – This is a very solid option but makes the deck more vulnerable to Darkblast and Engineered Plague. Darkblast can be a real problem. But the recursive nature is very tempting. You could play all 12 but this leave you vulnerable to Chalice. Gravecrawler is also awesome with Culling the Weak.
Vault Skirge – The only problem with the zombie or 2/2 1cc drops is they can be blocked at times. This is where the Skirge shines. In addition you can cast Hatred on it and possibly get all the life you just paid all back. The flying is good as well. Hatred is all about evasion.
Dauthi Slayer and Dauthi Horror are staple in any Hatred deck. Nothing in the Legacy format can block them and this is key if you are going to kill your opponent. Few if anyone is running shadows. One argument against Dauthi Horror is it has one toughness. After testing it extensively by cutting one, the conclusion I have come to is you need him to make the deck work. If your opponent is playing Fire/Ice just play one at a time so he doesn’t go for 2 for 1.
Blood Pet – Surprisingly this has become a staple in my build. It has a multitude of uses beyond the obvious. Versus Dredge you can sacrifice it to get rid of their bridges. Versus Batterskull you block and sacrifice preventing their life gain. But where I use it most is Daze. Once you get to 5 mana it pays to have this guy their so you don’t have to worry about Daze.
Mesmeric Fiend – Another surprise is how this cards has proven itself in the deck. If you play it on turn 2 vs a deck without a way to block you can take whatever they would use to stop Hatred and then kill them on the next turn. The fact your card removal is a creature comes in handy quite a bit. You may why not run Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek. You can run those too, but I find I can often kill my opponent with this guy after I have seen there hand. Another benefit of Fiend it is immune to Spell Pierce.
Dark Confidant – After testing Dark Confidant extensively with this deck I have found him to be a staple card as well. Sure occasionally you may pull a Hatred but you should be dealing damage every turn to your opponent. But what I like most about Confidant is it’s a removal magnet. Guaranteed, if your opponent can get rid of this card, they will immediately. If they can’t then you probably know they don’t have much to stop Hatred. Works very well.
After this its anyone’s guess for the remaining creatures You want a minimum of 20 depending if not more. If you play all of these there is your 20. Wanted to open it up to discussion but I have reached some conclusions about many of the cards people like in this deck.
The following is a bunch of cards I have tested that did not make the cut and I will list them in the order of preference from the ones I prefer to the least.
Hypnotic Specter
Fledgling Djinn
Oona’s Prowler
Skittering Skirge
Stromgald Crusader
Vampire Interloper
Vault Skirge
Putrid Imp
Signal Pest
Bloodghast
Phyrexian Negator
3. Disruption
One option if you want more discard is to cut some one drops for more discard spells like Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek. This is a solid option and the deck I’m working out played fine this way. However, I have found that after looking at enough hands I pretty much know what it is in them. Sometimes the discard really becomes a dead card as well. Hatred really can’t afford dead cards. But if you want to do that, its not a bad option. It will slow your deck down though and theirs somewhat.
.
Hymn to Tourach is not desired unless you play it in addition to the above. I also dropped Fiend for the above discard and Hymn. Its true Hymn is good against SOME decks but definitely not all and it slows your deck down as well. I have seen some Hatred decks run Hymn in the sideboard because of how good they are against certain decks.
Unmask is a definite option and I tend to favor it over in addition to if not over Duress. If you want more discard. I would play 2 or 3. 4 just seems excessive. The reason I like it better in some regards is it allows you to take their creatures which Duress does not.
Thoughtseize I avoid for obvious reasons. Life is a resource for killing you opponent so you don’t want to lose it.
Cabal Therapy is another option if you want even more but the obvious issue with Therapy is you won’t always know what to name.
Wasteland and Sinkhole
I chose to run Wasteland but I would not say its necessary. There are many options you run in this slot if you cut Wasteland. But I chose to run them because of the following
Grove of Burnwillows
Maze of Ith
There are many more to list but these are the most popular it seems and both can really screw up your plan. Sinkhole some people swear by them and love them, I just don’t think they are necessary for much of the same reason Hymn is not and many people have a lot of alternative mana sources besides land in their decks.
4. Mana
Dark Ritual obviously. Best fast mana in the game.
Culling the Weak if you want faster mana. I used to run this. 3 seems to be the best number to play. You don’t want to draw multiples of this card. If you decide to run this in place of the Blood Pet slot. I would do this.
-4 Blood Pet
+3 Culling the Weak
+1 Lake of the Dead
Lake of the Dead is not really recommended in the deck UNLESS you run at least 17-18 swamps. Its an interesting card that only allows you to kill them on turn 3. If you run it, I would never run more then 1. What will you do if you draw a 2nd? In all likelihood it will be a dead card.
Cabal Ritual is slow. I have seen some decks that run it. If you find your graveyard filling up all the time this may be a good option but 3 max really. I don’t like it.
Lotus Petal is also a solid addition. Hell, other combo decks run it. Why shouldn’t Hatred. The sooner you can get to 5 mana. The better of you will be.
Chrome Mox – Chrome Mox is probably the best option as you can throw extra Hatred to it or an unnecessary Dark Ritual. Diamond I would never recommend. One reason I run Blood Pet over these is Spell Pierce which is very popular now. You need to watch for it also before you cast Hatred.
Other lands I have seen in builds are Peat Bog, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb and Phyrexian Tower. I can go into why I no longer run any of these, but I would not recommend them in this build unless you have extra slots for lands. All of them have considerable drawbacks. But do provide fast mana.
Lions Eye Diamond is interesting but I have yet to see a build that can make it work.
5. Tutors
Really this is a sad selection as black has been gutted as far as tutors because of the stated above tutors.
Diabolic Intent seems to be the last option. 2 or 3 is a good number. After all, how many will you cast in a game? Honestly though, I don’t run them and run the Confidant in this slot.
Grim Tutor costs 3 and 3 life. It’s a very high price to pay for a card. I used to run two Grim and two Diabolic but dropped the Grim after adding Dark Confidant.
Spoils of the Vault is horrible for obvious reasons. I have seen a deck run two but I can’t imagine what kind of environment you would run them in. Maybe if you ran lots of life gain or something? If you could then it might be worth it but probably not. The only reason I mention it is black has few options.
Infernal Tutor is not recommended either. You don’t want to empty your hand for a single card generally. Although one untested option is to dump your hand to Putrid Imp and Oona’s Prowler and cast this for your kill card but that’s not viable either really.
Dark Confidant is not a tutor but it will help you tremendously in setting up your mana base and I love because it is a magnet for Counterspell and removal which helps draw their attention away from your shadow creatures which you can then used to kill them. The deck is very aggressive so often it won’t matter if you pull a Hatred off of a Confidant. I have never pulled more then one in a game.
6. The sideboard
Black has some of the best sideboard options available to deal with a lot of combo decks. And since this is an aggro/combo/control deck in that order you will be well matched against decks seeking to go off and win on turns 1-3. I won’t go into every option here for obvious reasons.
You may be wondering why not more graveyard hate and the truth is you don’t want to delude and slow down the deck to play it. If I were to play something it would be Extirpate. This card allows you to cast at the end of your opponent’s turn to check their hand and go off on your turn if they have nothing. Very handy. But I have not found that I needed it for the same reasons I don’t need discard. I know what they are likely to have. I know all the popular Counterspells and removal. You should too if you choose to play this.l
7. Decklist
Below is the current list I am running which seems to be playing well in testing.
Hatred
Sideboard
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cursed Scroll
3 Perish
2 Spinning Darkness
2 Forsaken Wastes
Main
10 Swamp
4 Pendelhaven
4 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hatred
4 Lotus Petal
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Blood Pet
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Vault Skirge
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
As stated, I am comfortable not playing additional discard spells. Right now U/R Delver is popular and this is fine for that. If Maverick becomes more popular I would probably switch the one drop creatures 2/2 creatures for one drops with some evasion because of Mother of Runes. But for right now this is fine.
8. Mulligan
This deck mulligans well. You want to see a Dark Ritual, Hatred or Dark Confidant in your opening hand. If you don’t, you will probably lose. When these cards are in your opening hand the odds of the deck winning increase dramatically. And burning your Dark Ritual to put down two cards is not always the best move unless one is a Confidant usually. You want to make sure you have mana in case your opponent does something stupid like tap out or empty his hand.
So far I’m pretty happy with the deck. Once I have some tournament results I will post them, but for now it wins over 50% of its matches possibly because I know the deck well and you can’t ask for more then that with a rogue deck like Hatred. Not sure if I want to add graveyard hate or not. We’ll see how it goes.
Peace.
Necrowil
I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer