Best way to reprint Dual Lands

[Jacemindbreak]

Example:

Underground Ocean
Land - Swamp (non-basic)
T: Produce a B or a U of your choice.

This land is almost as equivalent to a regular dual. You cannot fetch it as easily, but you get the benefit of playing around choke like effects.

[Julian23]

There are several ways to reprint them while getting around the reserved list. The most commonly agreed on is reprinting them as Snow-covered lands.

At this point it's not a questions of how to reprint them. It's a question of actually wanting to reprint them somehow. Would love to see an upgrade from Shock-lands in Return to Ravnica, although I highly doubt it.

[Jacemindbreak]

There are several ways to reprint them while getting around the reserved list. The most commonly agreed on is reprinting them as Snow-covered lands.

At this point it's not a questions of how to reprint them. It's a question of actually wanting to reprint them somehow. Would love to see an upgrade from Shock-lands in Return to Ravnica, although I highly doubt it.

But the problem with the reserve list is that it cannot reprint the card that is identical or functionally better.

snow covered is mostly identical.

[troopatroop]

I agree with him. These are only weaker than Duals, apart from strange situations with Boil or Flashfires...

...or Choke... but do they really care that much? I support this idea

[Jacemindbreak]

But really...why are we complaining about duals? I'm pretty sure almost everyone on this board has a playset of duals for the deck they are wanting to play.

What they really need to reprint are other legacy staples. Goyfs, FOW, and such. I'd prefer to see these before any equivalent duals get reprinted.

[Julian23]

"Mostly identical" is different from identical, which is all the reserved list cares about. In a detailed version it lists all the characteristic that matter to it. From what I remember, being Snow-Covered wasn't part of that.

Also, it's not about us. It's not about the people that already play Legacy. It's about all those people that are interested in joining but feel bad about borrowing cards for each and every tournament. There's also a mental relieve in not having to pay 70% of your deck's cost for your lands that don't do anything awesome.

[betterthenandrew]

But the problem with the reserve list is that it cannot reprint the card that is identical or functionally better.

snow covered is mostly identical.

I sure hope they never make a functionally better Mold Demon. I'm sure the pro Reserve list guys would lose their shit.

[dontbiteitholmes]

The best way to reprint dual lands. Announce you are going to do away with the reserved list. Reprint dual lands as the "treasure" slot in new sets similar to Zendikar treasures.

[KobeBryan]

The best way to reprint dual lands. Announce you are going to do away with the reserved list. Reprint dual lands as the "treasure" slot in new sets similar to Zendikar treasures.

Treasure slots are not nearly enough cards to put on the market to put a dent on the prices.

[CorpT]

The best way to reprint dual lands. Announce you are going to do away with the reserved list. Reprint dual lands as the "treasure" slot in new sets similar to Zendikar treasures.

That makes too much sense.

[Stoyrm]

The best way to reprint dual lands is to actually screw the reserved list and print the original dual lands. I spent thousands of $ last year on legacy staples and i would love for them to be reprinted. The value of my collection would fall significantly but i would be able to share the legacy format with other people, and that is worth way more than money. This should've been done to many of the staples if only WOTC would man up. Yes some would whine, but so many would be thoroughly happy. How many out there actually feel that they should never reprint valuable cards? The duals would not fall to much in value, people still want rare cards, beta duals would still keep their value, even if they print snow duals that would be fine, most Legacy decks don't even play more than 4-5 duals! Fetches is way more important anyway. Feh i hate this topic as it will never change and it's silly that WOTC hasn't changed their mind yet :p

[Purgatory]

The best way to reprint dual lands is to actually screw the reserved list and print the original dual lands. I spent thousands of $ last year on legacy staples and i would love for them to be reprinted. The value of my collection would fall significantly but i would be able to share the legacy format with other people, and that is worth way more than money. This should've been done to many of the staples if only WOTC would man up. Yes some would whine, but so many would be thoroughly happy. How many out there actually feel that they should never reprint valuable cards? The duals would not fall to much in value, people still want rare cards, beta duals would still keep their value, even if they print snow duals that would be fine, most Legacy decks don't even play more than 4-5 duals! Fetches is way more important anyway. Feh i hate this topic as it will never change and it's silly that WOTC hasn't changed their mind yet :p

I agree completely, speaking for someone who has most of the Legacy staples I need to play the decks that I play, that is FoW, blue duals and fetches, Tarmogoyfs, etc. etc., it is still not the value of my collection that is the most important thing. My cards are essentially a mass of gaming equipment, they are not a retirement fund.

[nedleeds]

The value of your collection would be preserved by abolishing the reserved list (at least the legacy staples) since the format would continue to grow.

Please see Beta Dual Lands ... or Beta Birds of Paradise ... for examples of how reprints don't mean a fucking thing.

This article is a bit dated but it makes the case for abolishing of the list

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18888_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Visiting_Wizards_Reprints_and_the_Reserved_List.html

[DrHealex]

Just make snow duals, and give them a flavorful drawback.

1- depletion counters
2 -doesn't untap on your next untap when tapped for colored mana
3- opponent gets 1 colorless snow mana cause (in play/tapped) duration = ?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Treasure slots are not nearly enough cards to put on the market to put a dent on the prices.

Just WotC announcing breaking the reserve list is enough to put a dent in prices. I'd like to see dual lands drop 20-30% in value and then stay around that level rising only to match inflation. Which is around what their true value would probably be if you took speculators, "investors", and hoarders out of the equation.

And yes I have a full set of duals already.

[Koby]

I also support the abolishment of the reserve list, insomuch because it doesn't benefit the game at all. I don't care if my collection is devalued by that move either, because it only increases the perception of fresh cardboard. I have no doubt that the truly broken cards will never see new ink on cardboard either way (power 9, Workshop, Library, etc) so it would only allow the return of usable and useful dual lands seeing play.

Dual lands have already seen an exclusive exception in 1998-2000 Extended format, by allowing them to remain legal while Revised was not legal in the same format. This should be applied to the reserve list as well.

I also own many dual lands and a complete Vintage deck. I'm not worried about their value. I'm more worried about the future of Eternal formats in longevity.

[nedleeds]

I also own many dual lands and a complete Vintage deck. I'm not worried about their value. I'm more worried about the future of Eternal formats in longevity.

This ... and anyone who says otherwise doesn't actually play anyway, they are just misers.

[KobeBryan]

Well...its really a moot point discussing abolishing of the reserve list since the modern format was created just for this purpose.

Hoping for a new card is all we can expect from WOTC

[joemauer]

Eh, Wizards could at any point reprint Force of Will, Wasteland, Dark Confidant, Tarmogofy, Grim Tutor, or any other expensive three kingdoms card but they don't.

The more expensive Legacy is the better it is for Wizards because people priced out of Legacy will play standard or draft.

[mini1337s]

I own playset of the U/x duals and any other the other ones I need for decks and I also fully support reprinting the original duals. A/B/U will see no price-change, hell, they might even go up. Revised duals will go down, but I would imagine they would simply fall back to their prices circa 2 years ago. I would guess the new price structure for 3rd/Reprints would settle at:

Underground Sea @ $60
Tundra, Tropical, and Volcanic @ $50
Savannah, Bayou, Scrubland, Taiga @ $30-40
Badlands, Plateau @ $25

If they do reprint the original duals, I will suck a dick for a Russian Underground Sea.

[dontbiteitholmes]

There are good ways to reprint them if you want the old duals to hold value.

Just commission new bad artwork, white border only, and put a purple set symbol on them similar Time Spiraled cards.

[rxavage]

There are good ways to reprint them if you want the old duals to hold value.

Just commission new bad artwork, white border only, and put a purple set symbol on them similar Time Spiraled cards.


Pony duals! J/k

[lochlan]

But the problem with the reserve list is that it cannot reprint the card that is identical or functionally better.

I'm pretty sure this is false (the part about being "functionally better"). I mean, Fork is on the Reserved List, yet Reverberate is a card.

They can't print something "functionally identical", yes, but there are clearly ways to get around that minor technicality.

[sdematt]

If they do reprint the original duals, I will suck a dick for a Russian Underground Sea.

You better believe I'm going to hold you to this, Mike.

-Matt

[dragonwisdom]

Here is how you reprint the original duals

1) make them purple with new art
2) you must pay an extra 50 cents to use this card in tournament play


You can't reprint snow-covered, because that would make wasteland meaningless in 2-color decks. Legacy's dynamic would change.


The revised dual lands would still hold most of their value.
They could also do this with grim tutor, Candelebra etc......

[dernestor86]

i wanted to say at first get a f***ing job to buy the original duals but i highly support reprinting duals. the sweet taste of russian foil duals is just too exciting! sadly this will not happen.

wizards will not print duals with other names, it would technically allow to play 8 of each. aint gonna happen. ravnica shocks are good enough for this purpose.

lol, plus if duals would be reprinted they'd be legal in modern and those other crappy formats, causing such an insane demand that prices wouldnt fall again. the value would just be ridiculous and then we have people whining that they want another reprint. this will never end.

[xfxf]

On one hand I'm becoming increasingly happy with Legacy's price barrier as it filters down the player base to those who share the same dedication and appreciation of the format also having a certain level of maturity as a player. However I'm not happy when Monthly Legacy event gets sidetracked due to a sealed event or the weekly Legacy doesn't fire due to poor turn-out So yeah, it would be nice to be able to play with other players.

Regardless, as we all know a reprint of Dual Lands won't happen but to fantasize, I think the best way to reprint them would be in a Legacy masters sort of thing. Give them the crappy new frames and crappy new art like that of new Tarmogoyf's so the originals will always be cooler. The trick here is though white border/black border is a huge thing for many players so probably no matter how crappy the new art is, the Revised and Unlimited ones would lose value in favor of the new black bordered ones.

I'm sure that kind of new border, new art draftable set reprints with limited print run (yep, like Modern Masters) wouldn't crash the value of most Legacy staples while giving new players an incentive, a doorway, to consider getting into the format.

[Picc]

Lets be honest even if they did a reprint it would be in some kind of limited run premium product and the secondary market wouldn't let the prices fall much. They would hype the product like never before and be sold out within the first 24 hours of pre-sale, everyone would try to horde copies to resell at a profit later and while it might create the perception the format was more accessible I doubt it would actually have much impact on the prices of anything outside of maybe creating a new pimp version for folks who want foil duals. Powerful and cheap are never going to be synonymous in this game unless they mass reprint everything to the point it causes a significant change in the way the secondary market operates (really don't see Hasbro taking this kind of a risk with their distribution channels even if the reserve list wasn't an issue).

[Megadeus]

The thing woth a legacy masters set as compared to modern masters is that duals are much more scarce than anything in MM so any reprint would go a long way to inceeasing supply.

[socialite]

Get a job, quit your bitching, and lock this thread. #MTGFOODSTAMPS

[ramanujan]

Asking for a reprint does not convey what you are really asking for.

Suppose that Wizards did the following.

The 10 original dual lands are available for purchase, as many as you want. The price for them is 100% of the Starcitygames price for NM.


I am aware that this would be a nightmare to enforce, along with allowing SCG to game the system. That is not really the point. The point is that the people that clamor for reprints are simply asking for a cheaper way to get cards after the market has determined an appropriate price. They just ask for reprints because it sounds better.

[Megadeus]

I mean its all supply and demand. I have seen ebay prices of USeas creeping higher and higher. Its interesting hpw spmeone pays one dollar extra and then everyone else does it too

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Asking for a reprint does not convey what you are really asking for.

Suppose that Wizards did the following.

The 10 original dual lands are available for purchase, as many as you want. The price for them is 100% of the Starcitygames price for NM.


I am aware that this would be a nightmare to enforce, along with allowing SCG to game the system. That is not really the point. The point is that the people that clamor for reprints are simply asking for a cheaper way to get cards after the market has determined an appropriate price. They just ask for reprints because it sounds better.

Not really: the biggest issue (to my knowledge) that most competitive non-Legacy players have with getting into Legacy is accessibility of the cards, not the price (though the two do share a correlation). It wasn't until recently that my LGSs even had Duals to sell (mostly due to players retiring and whatnot). Sure casuals might not spend the money to get into Legacy, but then again they don't put in the money to be competitive at all.

EDIT: I'd be happy for your suggestion though.

[Esper3k]

Not really: the biggest issue (to my knowledge) that most competitive non-Legacy players have with getting into Legacy is accessibility of the cards, not the price (though the two do share a correlation). It wasn't until recently that my LGSs even had Duals to sell (mostly due to players retiring and whatnot). Sure casuals might not spend the money to get into Legacy, but then again they don't put in the money to be competitive at all.

EDIT: I'd be happy for your suggestion though.

I disagree on the accessibility part. In today's online economy, it's easy to find dual lands and most Legacy staples - you may just have to pay a premium for them. Yes, some players want to support their LGS and that's fine, but there's no shortage of dual lands out there.

[ramanujan]

Not really: the biggest issue (to my knowledge) that most competitive non-Legacy players have with getting into Legacy is accessibility of the cards, not the price (though the two do share a correlation). It wasn't until recently that my LGSs even had Duals to sell (mostly due to players retiring and whatnot). Sure casuals might not spend the money to get into Legacy, but then again they don't put in the money to be competitive at all.

EDIT: I'd be happy for your suggestion though.

I really didn't think that it was a supply issue, as there are online vendors and the bay. It seems really wierd to me that you would be happy with my suggestion (buying from Wizards) but you are not willing to go to an online source like ebay to solve your issue with accessibility. (You pointed out that your LGS did not have duals until recently)

I don't mean to be rude, but I really think that you were not being honest when you said you would be happy with my suggestion. I think that it ticked you off a bit so you posted that you would gladly accept it. Oh well, I made the point I was intending to make.

[apple713]

This ... and anyone who says otherwise doesn't actually play anyway, they are just misers.

This

[TsumiBand]

There's a ton of ways to just print something that's on a playable par with Beta duals, though. For my part I do not understand why there are not more lands that have even just a single basic land type. They would interact with fetchlands, which is probably the most crucial interaction for any would-be dual land replacement to have, and they would have implicit rules text regarding what they can tap for.

Stick's Land

Land - Forest

T: Add :w: to your mana pool. Insert some drawback.

It might be a little difficult to, like, get domain or make Wild Nacatl a 3/3 on turn 2, but so the flip what.

[Einherjer]

Insert some drawback.


And that's the problem.

[Mr.C]

Wizards gave us the big "Fuck You" in 2010. Dual lands aren't getting reprinted. Reserved cards will not get reprinted. Legacy will eventually dwindle and fade, just like Vintage before it.

The end, close thread.

Edit: Mark Rosewater even said that stuff like Reverberate won't happen again. Some bullshit about the spirit of the Reserve List. So no Snow Duals either.

[TsumiBand]

And that's the problem.

Well let's not oversimplify the matter. I find it difficult to believe that there isn't a kind of fetchable land that can be printed which could either stand-in for duals where the player can't afford them or augment those that are already played. I know full-well that shocklands exist, and they see little-to-no play in Legacy outside the occasional budget list, and even then you have to play them with such extreme caution that they are basically setting you back a turn if you're not willing to Lightning Bolt yourself, which is tantamount to 1.5+ Storm count for your opponent per each one you drop. I'm assuming a lack of creativity is the primary stumbling block here, and honestly in Legacy it's enough of a drawback for the land to not carry both types that it would not see play in, like, Zoo or some deck that pays attention to its land types.

[Picc]

Legacy will eventually dwindle and fade, just like Vintage before it.

I doubt it. First off secondary market price gouging aside there are a lot of revised duals out there (way more then sets of power). In the last 3 years the cost of most duals has for the most part doubled (I don't think there are twice as many people playing legacy this year as there were last). But for a moment lets say we get to a point where true duals aren't an option for most of the player base anymore (ignoring all the sets in player hands already) then the meta will shift to the next best alternative likely RAV duals or more niche options on a deck by deck basis. Sure if we get there folks who still have duals will have an edge (assuming wizards doesn't print new cards that synergism to make competitive decks).

Besides even if wizards never prints another fetch target equivalent to the original duals nothing stopping them from printing a super a super fetch land to solve the issue. Something like T: Sac this card to search your deck for a land that can produce U & B and put it into play untapped would pretty much give new players equivalent (if not more far reaching) power.

[xfxf]

This "functionality of dual lands-reserve list policy" impasse is like the uncertainty principle of Heisenberg. If there was a way around it someone would have found it already.

[joemauer]

Asking for a reprint does not convey what you are really asking for.

Suppose that Wizards did the following.

The 10 original dual lands are available for purchase, as many as you want. The price for them is 100% of the Starcitygames price for NM.


I am aware that this would be a nightmare to enforce, along with allowing SCG to game the system. That is not really the point. The point is that the people that clamor for reprints are simply asking for a cheaper way to get cards after the market has determined an appropriate price. They just ask for reprints because it sounds better.

Most people wanting dual lands reprinted have either all the dual lands or enough dual lands to play mostly whatever they want. Legacy players want duals reprinted so more players can play the best format in MtG(I am aware this is subjective).

Sure there are million ways to reprint duals. WotC could do snow duals or just flat out abolish the reserve list.

Here is thing though. WotC is either not ready to make some kind of big risk like that for whatever reason or they simply don't want to do it. As a company does reprinting duals help sell new sets? Probably will only help sell one new set, the one with the duals. Making Legacy more accessible might be the noble thing to do, but it won't help WotC coast sell new packs. Unfortunately, standard and draft helps sell new packs. They have been making standard more accessible by turning it into something similar to Yugi Oh. This has probably pushed more older players out of standard into Legacy causing prices of Legacy staples to rise even further. Thus, causing more players asking for reprints of duals.

If you really believe that WotC cares about the expensive secondary market of Legacy staples then ask yourself this. Why hasn't Wasteland and Force of Will seen any reprints in the last 15+ years? These are two definite staples of Legacy not on the reserve list that could be reprinted in any number of ways to reduce their price but haven't and most likely won't ever see a mass reprint.

Theory crafting about how duals could/should be reprinted is fun I guess, but it is really just a waste of time. The best we can hope for at this point is some really good counterfeiting of the most expensive cards to help fill the secondary market with more copies of cards for Legacy.

[TsumiBand]

This "functionality of dual lands-reserve list policy" impasse is like the uncertainty principle of Heisenberg.

...the more you know about WotC's position on it, the less you know about their velocity? O_o I think I'm lost :)

Anyway, I still like my idea. Cycle of Murmuring Bosks, I choose yoooou

[xfxf]

...the more you know about WotC's position on it, the less you know about their velocity? O_o I think I'm lost :)

Anyway, I still like my idea. Cycle of Murmuring Bosks, I choose yoooou

Hehe no it's like, sounds incredibly stupid to pose a permanent obstacle but unfortunately it is, and really if there was a real solution to it by now someone clever would have figured it out.

[Picc]

Hehe no it's like, sounds incredibly stupid to pose a permanent obstacle but unfortunately it is, and really if there was a real solution to it by now someone clever would have figured it out.

A number of things that would work have already been figured out (snow duals, prior to it being closed the foil loop hole, Premium deck has duals, FTV duals, super fetches, a flat out reprint,etc) the issue if you can even call it that at this point is Wotc/Hasbro not wanting to use any of them to address the problem for whatever reason.

[Gammadoom]

wizards will not print duals with other names, it would technically allow to play 8 of each. aint gonna happen. ravnica shocks are good enough for this purpose.


Underground 2, Electric Boogaloo
Snow Land - Swamp Island
Tap: Add U or B to your mana pool
If you have a card named Underground Sea in play, sacrifice ~.

Now you get to play four.

[Esper3k]

If you really believe that WotC cares about the expensive secondary market of Legacy staples then ask yourself this. Why hasn't Wasteland and Force of Will seen any reprints in the last 15+ years?

Just a small nitpick - Wasteland has been reprinted as a judge foil.

I do agree that WoTC doesn't care about the secondary market though (and they generally probably shouldn't).

[Picc]

Just a small nitpick - Wasteland has been reprinted as a judge foil.


Was an uncommon, there was also an interpretation of the reserve list that allowed them to reprint cards in a "premium" form (aka foil, see mox diamond) but they have stated their not going to be doing that anymore either.

[Esper3k]

Was an uncommon, there was also an interpretation of the reserve list that allowed them to reprint cards in a "premium" form (aka foil, see mox diamond) but they have stated their not going to be doing that anymore either.

What I believe Joemauer was talking about was how Force of Will and Wasteland specifically are not on the reserved list, but have not seen any significant amount of reprinting (none for FoW and just the judge foil for Wasteland).

[Picc]

What I believe Joemauer was talking about was how Force of Will and Wasteland specifically are not on the reserved list, but have not seen any significant amount of reprinting (none for FoW and just the judge foil for Wasteland).

Then in that case 100% agree, they both could really use a mass reprint.