Why did Tarmogoyf fall out of flavor?

[Jacemindbreak]

its a 1G for a 4/5

How come only 1 deck runs it?

I know its nothing but a beater, but it still packs a punch and is a threat on the board.

[Aggro_zombies]

It fell out of flavor because it was overcooked.

(Also, there are better beaters than it now.)

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm going to say it's definitively Scavenging Ooze's fault. It's much better to have a creature that just neuters a lot of combo decks while shutting down Threshold, Snapcaster, and gaining life. He's pretty much the best creature in green now, and completely trumps goyf. There's no reason to play Goyf over him in almost any deck.

[Julian23]

I remember seeing Tarmogoyf starting to fall from favor even before the printing of Scavenging Ooze. Despite being 1 mana more expensive, Knight of the Reliquary took its place in all Bant-Midrange decks.

It continued to see play in non-white, Team-America-style decks and was just recently replaced with Snapcaster Mage and Scavenging Ooze. Canadian Threshold still remains true to the Goyf because of his mana-cost. It's however the go-to creature to cut in that deck when it comes to new and more exciting beatsticks.

[CookedChestnuts]

So Tarmogoyf is a blue card. It actually doesn't pitch to Force of Will, but it mainly sees play in blue decks (specifically Counterbalance and Legacy decks circa 2010), especially decks playing Ponder, or playing Goyf based on the assumption that your opponent is playing sorceries to fuel the monster.

Example of Non-Goyf Tarmogoyf decks (these are old):
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=1885&iddeck=3398 < Merfolk
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=166&iddeck=3686 < Goblins

Example of Actual Goyf decks, where Goyf would frequently be a 6/7:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5602&iddeck=40552 < New Horizons
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5541&iddeck=40117 < 4c Countertop (2010)
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8591&iddeck=62698 < Team America

So what happened?

The decks that played Tarmogoyf for the sake of having a beater (Goblins, Merfolk, etc.) had better creatures printed, and better cards. Merfolk got Dismember and Phantasmal Image, and needs a black splash now to beat Maverick consistantly. Goblins got more utility creatures, which has a lot more synergy with Ringleader and Matron. The actual Tarmogoyf decks became obsolete. Why play Counterbalance when you won't constantly hit a 4 on top to counter your opponents Jace? The format became too developed for people to play Counterbalance, and the only real Tarmogoyf deck still kicking is Team America due to functional newer cards like Dismember, Delver of Secrets and Liliana of the Veil.

Not to mention that Scavenging Ooze outclasses Tarmogoyf. In a lot of decks where you want big stupid beaters, Tarmogoyf works. In decks that can take their time (Junk, Maverick, some RUG Delver lists (although I think that that's wrong, and brackets within brackets is just pretentious)) Scavenging Ooze is better. It won't necessarily be bigger than a Tarmogoyf, but it shrinks your opponents Tarmogoyfs, can stop Reanimator, stop your opponent from getting Threshold or value out of their Snapcaster Mages, gain life versus Burn, or eat your Aggro Loam opponents Life from the Loams). It's a very versatile card, while Tarmogoyf is no longer as good as it used to be.

[Koby]

Because power crept, and kicked him to the curb. I agree with Phoenix - Scavenging Ooze replacement him in base-Green decks, and Knight replaced him in GW/x decks. That only leaves BUG and RUG as the last hold outs. Even then, Delver is much more effective beater than Goyf is.

How often is Goyf a 4/5?
Land? (Fetch)
Instant? (Brainstorm/Bolt)
Creature? (bolt, chump)
Sorcery...? (Ponder...?)

Goyf can only be 4/5 with some serious commitment to disrupt creature strategies and in at minimum 3 turns. Against Combo, he's very frequently a 2/3 - which fails his test as a quick, efficient beater.

Also, $80 pricetag stings.

[Justin]

I think that Delver espcially hurts the amount of play of Tarmogoyf. It's not just that Delver is a more efficient beater, but it allows people to play aggressive beatdown decks without going into green. Sure Can Thresh plays both Delver and Goyf, but now we have UR Delver and even UW Delver. Nobody played aggressive decks in those colors without also splashing green before Delver was printed.

Another thing that hurt Goyf was the printings of pro-green swords in Scars of Mirrodin block. Stoneforge Mystic became a lot better, as it did not have the ability to fetch pro-green swords before then.

A final card that has hurt the playability of Goyf is Green Sun's Zenith. When the card was first spoiled, people were excited about it as a Goyf #5-8. But then people realized that GSZ is better when tutoring for a specific card. That's why Maverick does not play Goyf. It's better to use those slots for Scryb Ranger, Scavenging Ooze(s), Fauna Shaman, Eternal Witness, or whatever you need for a given situation. Before GSZ was printed it was hard to imagine that a GW deck could be tier-one without Goyf, but that's what happened. Likewise decks like GBx Nic-Fit and other Rock variants run GSZ, but no Goyf.

And as was mentioned above, other spells such as Knight and Ooze have also encouraged players to drop Goyf. Taken together, as Kobe said there's been a lot of power creep.

[jrw1985]

RUG Delver : Best Deck in the Format

Goyf hasn't gone anywhere.

[KobeBryan]

RUG Delver : Best Deck in the Format

Goyf hasn't gone anywhere.

Great assessment. :rolleyes:

[Justin]

RUG Delver : Best Deck in the Format

Goyf hasn't gone anywhere.

Well, at one time Goyf was played a ton of Legacy decks, now it's only played in one tier-one deck. So it's fallen from favor, but is by no means irrelevant.

Delver is the new Goyf. Goyf is the new Goblin Lackey.

[sdematt]

A 4/5 with no abilities is only good if your deck is doing something else. However, a 5/5 and up for 3 that Wastelands your opponents out of the game seems better.

Tarmogoyf is still used, but not quite as widespread, for sure. If you need something to seal the life gap fast, Goyf is still your guy. That's why he's in Tempo/Junk/some other lists. You disrupt, then get to beating down while your opponent has little to nothing.

-Matt

[Plague Sliver]

We've come a long way in terms of metagame and power creep. I still remember those days when we called for a banning of Goyf and he was overpowered. And those "awesome" Goyf-on-Goyf ground stalls.

Knowing Wizards, they will now print a Goyf for GG or 2G that flies.

(That was a joke, by the way.)

[lavafrogg]

I'm saying it has everything to do with the price tag and people not needing to splash green for beaters anymore.

Maverick runs Mom which stalls the ground until someone finds an answer at that point it doesn't matter what you are attacking with which is why goyfs are cut for pridemages and oozes(in Maverick).

Blue mages now have Stoneforge Mystic(same color as plow) and Jace to finish games so they don't need to add green to win the game.

[dontbiteitholmes]

We've come a long way in terms of metagame and power creep. I still remember those days when we called for a banning of Goyf and he was overpowered. And those "awesome" Goyf-on-Goyf ground stalls.

Knowing Wizards, they will now print a Goyf for GG or 2G that flies.

(That was a joke, by the way.)

Of course it was a joke, we all know if they printed Goyf now he would cost 1U and flip into a Tombstalker if your graveyard got RFG'd.



I'm saying it has everything to do with the price tag and people not needing to splash green for beaters anymore.

Maverick runs Mom which stalls the ground until someone finds an answer at that point it doesn't matter what you are attacking with which is why goyfs are cut for pridemages and oozes(in Maverick).

Blue mages now have Stoneforge Mystic(same color as plow) and Jace to finish games so they don't need to add green to win the game.

I think it's a little naive to say the price tag of an $80 card make people not play it when most blue lands cost near that much.

[FieryBalrog]

It's amazing. But kinda makes me feel bad for the poor ol' Goyfs :tongue:

It's really incredible that for the past year the top GW creature deck hasn't been interested in the format's once-inescapable, 'banworthy' green bogeyman.

at the end of the day, it turns out "goyf is just a beater" was right, he IS just a beater.

[Purgatory]

I still play four of him in RUG and TA. I don't have enough green mana sources or time to diddle around and remove creatures with Ooze. I've tried him as a one-of in the deck, haven't quite figured out if it's worth it yet.

[Dark Ritual]

...Because vanilla beaters are bad? Really, I traded away my playset of goyfs BECAUSE I never used them and because they're overpriced chaff. Scavenging ooze trumps goyf in terms of power level easily, whenever someone untaps with ooze in play they typically gain an edge in said game. Whenever someone untaps with goyf now, who cares?

Goyf is a victim of what's called power creep. If he was reprinted in standard, I doubt goyf would make that big of a splash in terms of appearing in tier 1 decks. The fact is, goyf just doesn't cut it in legacy anymore.

Canadian thresh is hardly the best deck in legacy. Sure, canadian thresh takes up the largest percentage of the field but does that mean it's the best deck? Hardly. There is not a best deck in legacy currently, except maybe decks with griselbrand included in them. It's just that people are slow to adapt, as usual.

[trivial_matters]

If Tarmogoyf is much worse due to Scavenging Ooze, then so is Knight of the Reliquary.

I think Tarmogoyf seeing less play doesn't have so much to do with Ooze as some here are saying, but rather with the following:

Control(ish) decks like Countertop of old don't rely on Goyf anymore to stall and as a finisher because aggro decks like Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo aren't so popular like back then and because of Stoneforge Mystic being printed.

Maverick, the best midrange aggro deck right now, doesn't play Goyf because he has no useful abilities and doesn't contribute to the game plan. At the end of the day, he is just a beater and that doesn't cut it for Maverick at the moment.

He's still played in RUG, TA, The Rock/Junk, Aggro Loam, Zoo.