Damned Belcher

[slave]

Hi All,

I wanna have a try at making Army of the Damned become a turn 1 threat, and the framework in a Charbelcher deck looked like a good place to start.

Now I know Army isn't a great choice, especially when Empty the Warrens is a much better card, but with my meta being full of aggro goblin and merfolk decks, I run into Engineered Plague .
And I wanna give it go for the sake of it.
Besides, since when are goblins more awesome than zombies?

This is just a first go, so it's not reliable as yet - certainly not compared to your typical Belcher G/R lists, but I'd like to try something a little different, mainly because I have a certain love of black cards (and I own lots of these already).

Damned Belcher

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
3 Shield Sphere
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
3 Diabolic Intent

4 Army of the Damned
4 Goblin Charbelcher

4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Bayou

Í've decided to go with Culling the Weak, simply because it makes a turn one zombie-fest, or a lethal Belcher, possible with just 4 cards on turn 1.
So I've thought about what other cards I could include to support that strategy.
Wraith & Probe are in there to essentially thin the deck and spy.
Usually in an Empty the Warren's type strategy (with Burning Wish) you'd expect lots of gobbo's to come out and take a turn or more to nail your opponent. Sometimes the kill take more than one turn and you cop Echoing Truth. Army shouldn't have that problem if it doesn't get countered.

I also decided to go with Bayou (instead of Badlands for the Belchers' double damage), as it gives me access to things like Xanthid Swarm , Autumn's Veil , Reverent Silence and Carpet of Flowers for sideboard options.

So I thought this deck idea may be a little more likely, than typical Belcher, to last a few more turns against creature attacks with Shield Sphere/Ornithopter/Memnite in there to provide a little defence and gain threshold for Cabal Ritual, so I may get another chance to "go off"
What about Tendrils? SHould I consider popping in some of these for an extra win-con/survival option?

Thoughts?

[Vacrix]

Damn. I thought you figured out a way to play Songs of the Damned.

Ad Nauseam > Army of the Damned


Take a look at SAINT. There's a thread for it somewhere in developmental. It runs a lot of the same cards, ie. the SI shell but Ad Nauseam as a business spell to Belcher. Its pretty fast and can play maindeck protection.

Also, if you want to break Songs of the Damned, which is way cooler and would allow you to keep the name, add some Therapy's and perhaps Glimpse of Nature + more dudes.

[slave]

Songs of the Damned?
I hadn't thought of that one....I'll have to have a think about that for sure.

I did have a Mortal COmbat Deck (casual) that could achieve a win on the beginning of turn 2 upkeep a while ago, but it was way too vulnerable to Tormod's Crypt to be tournament material. It had Ad Nauseaum in there, and about 24-28 0-cmc creatures.
It was pretty sweet at drawing though the whole deck on turn 1, but the chance of doin a mulligan down to 4 or 5 was pretty high!!

BTW, how do I autocard?

[evanmartyr]

Song of the Damned could work well in a Multani's Presence + Chalice of the Void + Glimpse of Nature shell, giving you access to a ton of extra mana, but I'm unsure what you'd need it for, given that at some point you'll EtW for a ton of goblins.

But, as to the OP, I'm not sure why Army of the Damned is better than going into red for EtW and red rituals. I mean, just the sheer number of ritual effects you require to hit 8 mana is fairly steep, and none of them can be LED unless you're using belcher or ending a mana acceleration chain with a Diabolic Intent? Seems shaky. At the least, Infernal Tutor seems better than Diabolic in most cases.

[rufus]

I'm not sure there are situations where Army of the Damned is going to be stronger than compared to stuff like Morality Shift that can win faster and at a lower mana cost.

That said, Songs of the Damned into Army of the Damned sounds like a fun, and potentially strong way to go,Fluctuator might have better synergy with that than belcher does. It might also substitute for Crush of Wurms in 43 lands since it has a better flashback cost.

P.S. To autocard use the [cards] tag. (You can reply to any post that uses it to see an example.)

[slave]

Thanks for all the feedback guys!
I'm not the most informed fella re: card choices and efficiency, so keep the advice comin. Much appreciated.

After a bit more testing I've realised how fragile this above approach is.
I may go a different way and concentrate on Ad Nauseum , Tendrils of Agony and Banefire seeing as how they're hard to stop provided my opponent isn't running lots of counter.
Thanks for the suggestions. :smile:


Also, if you want to break Songs of the Damned, which is way cooler and would allow you to keep the name, add some Therapy's and perhaps Glimpse of Nature + more dudes.

I remember seeing a deck that ran about 20-something of the 0-cost artifacts dudes like Memnite etc. together with Glimpse of Nature and Riddlesmith that was capable of something like you're saying.
Songs of the Damned into Tendrils could work there as long I got the mana base sorted I'm guessin.



But, as to the OP, I'm not sure why Army of the Damned is better than going into red for EtW and red rituals. I mean, just the sheer number of ritual effects you require to hit 8 mana is fairly steep, and none of them can be LED unless you're using belcher or ending a mana acceleration chain with a Diabolic Intent? Seems shaky. At the least, Infernal Tutor seems better than Diabolic in most cases.

Agreed. My initial list in post#1 is pretty inconsistent I'm finding.
I realise Army is not better than EtW, just thought I would give it a go!


I'm not sure there are situations where Army of the Damned is going to be stronger than compared to stuff like Morality Shift that can win faster and at a lower mana cost.

P.S. To autocard use the [cards] tag. (You can reply to any post that uses it to see an example.)

Gotcha.

Alright so I had a think about how to make the deck more likely to go off by turn 2 or 3.
I've popped in Wishes, Ad Nauseum, Songs of the Damned (cos it's a cool) and some Pact of Negation when I wanna win.

13 creatures - still not sure if this is the right number.
Crookshank Kobolds
Crimson Kobolds
Kobolds of Kher Keep
Ornithopter or Memnite ....haven't decided.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Songs of the Damned
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant

2 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseum
2 Death Wish
4 Burning Wish
2 Pact of Negation
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Banefire

6 Lands. 2 Bayou & 4 Badlands

Sideboard would be similar to the typical red toolbox found with Charbelcher lists I imagine, but I would also have singletons of spells I like that can be fetched with Death Wish & Burning Wish;
Army of the Damned, Empty the Warrens, Charbelcher and an extra copy of Tendrils, Ad Nauseum, Banefire for backup.
I'm still wondering whether Grapeshot might be worth a go? Is it worth bothering with?

In testing so far, I've found I may be lacking a bit on creatures to make full use of the sac-effects I have, but I'm unsure what to take out.
Ad Nauseum and Tendrils are too dangerous to play a full playset!!!

And It has a lack of protection...the old glass cannon problem against other decks that can win on turn 1...but I'm unsure what I should take out, or even what I could plop in to fix this.
I really don't want Bolts/spot removal, but I may pop in Diabolic Edict or Innocent Blood for Reanimator/Aggro matchups.

What dýou think?

[evanmartyr]

Going with the Fluctuator -> Song of the Damned idea seems fairly solid, since you're not relying on having many "sacrifice a creature" interactions. Only thing is you're not fairly vulnerable to graveyard hate, but it does mean you can sub in Lightning Rift for the storm plan in standard belcher variants, and you could run a tutor package (Enlightened) that finds nearly all your business.

I'm not sure how much of your deck would have to have cycling, though, and it'd slow your deck down a ton (not to mention having to forego the Belcher plan entirely) if you had to run a bunch of the ETBtapped cycling lands.

4x Fluctuator
3x Lightning Rift

4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Song of the Damned
4x Smoldering Crater
4x Polluted Mire

There's your base. All you'd have to care about is finding a balance between lands, tutors or even Serum Powder to make certain you have a Fluctuator in play turn 1 or 2, and having enough cycling creatures to keep the chain going long enough to:

step 1: cast Lightning Rift
step 2: generate 10+ mana with fast mana shit
step 3: cycle 10+ times, paying for Lightning Rift each time

Empty the Catacombs might be a good way to keep the chain going.

Problem with this approach is that you care about your graveyard (ie, you have a hard time with Graveyard hate and flat-out lose to some of it), and you care about Fluctuator and Lightning Rift, which against any deck with Thoughtseizes, counterspells, etc, will just hate out asap.

[slave]

Going with the Fluctuator -> Song of the Damned idea seems fairly solid, since you're not relying on having many "sacrifice a creature" interactions. Only thing is you're not fairly vulnerable to graveyard hate, but it does mean you can sub in Lightning Rift for the storm plan in standard belcher variants, and you could run a tutor package (Enlightened) that finds nearly all your business.

I'm not sure how much of your deck would have to have cycling, though, and it'd slow your deck down a ton (not to mention having to forego the Belcher plan entirely) if you had to run a bunch of the ETBtapped cycling lands.

4x Fluctuator
3x Lightning Rift

4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Song of the Damned
4x Smoldering Crater
4x Polluted Mire

There's your base. All you'd have to care about is finding a balance between lands, tutors or even Serum Powder to make certain you have a Fluctuator in play turn 1 or 2, and having enough cycling creatures to keep the chain going long enough to:

step 1: cast Lightning Rift
step 2: generate 10+ mana with fast mana shit
step 3: cycle 10+ times, paying for Lightning Rift each time

Empty the Catacombs might be a good way to keep the chain going.

Problem with this approach is that you care about your graveyard (ie, you have a hard time with Graveyard hate and flat-out lose to some of it), and you care about Fluctuator and Lightning Rift, which against any deck with Thoughtseizes, counterspells, etc, will just hate out asap.

Thanks for explaining that.
I see what you mean about counterspells, kinda why I've been looking at Banefire, Tendrils & EtW as finishers of choice due to their uncounterable nature. I guess the deck will always have an Army of the Damned on the sideboard for when I play casually multiplayer.:wink: LOL.
Zombies are awesome.
RE: Graveyard - the 2nd attempt I have listed doesn't really care about the GY, unless we're talking about SOngs of the Damned. Which I kinda like.
Almost every black deck I end up making has some kind of GY theme which always gets me screwed against certain cards.....Tormod's Crypt I hate you.
So to not have that concern is nice!

I should mention too - Kobolds are there for Chrome Mox.
I find it's the easiest way for me to get two mana for a T1 Burning Wish.
Although.....I'm finding the name of the deck to be pretty far away from Belcher & Damned right here!! Maybe I should change the name.

RE: Songs of the Damned may not make the cut.
I really need more creatures to make better use of it. That said, I'm thinking it's a bit of a win-more card, as by the time I have 4+ creatures in the yard, most of the time I'm gunning for the win that very turn and Songs is just another spell to fuel Storm.
I like it, and it's definitely good to have more mana, but I'm still not sure...
I think it may become a couple Kobolds instead.

What are your thoughts on Death Wish? Worthy inclusion? Are there better options that let me find Ad Nauseaum/Tendrils without costing me heaps of life?
Obviously Burning Wish is awesome, but Death WIsh has the option of fetching me *anything*, so my sideboard options become interesting :eyebrow:

[evanmartyr]

My experience with Belcher is that there are only a few situations where you'd want to fetch anything other than artifact removal or an Empty the Warrens, both of which are Sorceries. If you went into black, you could still find disruption (Cabal Therapy, etc) and creature removal with Burning Wish. There doesn't seem to be much reason to use Death Wish.

[slave]

Death Wish is there for Ad Nauseum, just another way to find it besides a Tutor.

[slave]

Bah - this deck idea is a trainwreck.
I honestly can't see Belcher, Army of the Damned OR Songs of the Damned being a deck that'll be competitive at all.
Think I'll keep this one for casual though.

[Awaclus]

Going with the Fluctuator -> Song of the Damned idea seems fairly solid, since you're not relying on having many "sacrifice a creature" interactions. Only thing is you're not fairly vulnerable to graveyard hate, but it does mean you can sub in Lightning Rift for the storm plan in standard belcher variants, and you could run a tutor package (Enlightened) that finds nearly all your business.

I'm not sure how much of your deck would have to have cycling, though, and it'd slow your deck down a ton (not to mention having to forego the Belcher plan entirely) if you had to run a bunch of the ETBtapped cycling lands.

4x Fluctuator
3x Lightning Rift

4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Song of the Damned
4x Smoldering Crater
4x Polluted Mire

There's your base. All you'd have to care about is finding a balance between lands, tutors or even Serum Powder to make certain you have a Fluctuator in play turn 1 or 2, and having enough cycling creatures to keep the chain going long enough to:

step 1: cast Lightning Rift
step 2: generate 10+ mana with fast mana shit
step 3: cycle 10+ times, paying for Lightning Rift each time

Empty the Catacombs might be a good way to keep the chain going.

Problem with this approach is that you care about your graveyard (ie, you have a hard time with Graveyard hate and flat-out lose to some of it), and you care about Fluctuator and Lightning Rift, which against any deck with Thoughtseizes, counterspells, etc, will just hate out asap.
Why would you use anything besides 1x Tendrils of Agony and 1 of either Drudge Spell or Nezumi Graverobber (in case of a Teeg) in a Fluctuator deck?

Empty the Catacombs is a fine way to keep the chain going, but Reaping the Graves is better. Granted, you will have to build your deck around that a little bit, but I think you'd want to run Dark Rituals anyway. Empty the Catacombs works as a Reaping the Graves 5-8, if that's necessary.

inb4 "but cycling doesn't increase your storm count": Yeah, but Dark Ritual + Lotus Petal + Fluctuator + Reaping the Graves is already 4 spells, and reaping four creatures is enough for the deck to work. Once you draw your entire deck, your storm count will be high enough for Tendrils.