Would you actually post in a Vintage subforum? [Archive]

Arianrhod

07-25-2012, 10:00 AM

I also would support a vintage subforum, or if Ertai opened up his own, I would take advantage of that. The only reason Vintage is regarded as not a real format anymore is because people have buried their heads in the sand after the format collapsed and have been unwilling to rebuild it. There's been a resurgence of interest lately -- if that were supported and nurtured, it would be good for not only the format as a whole, but I would say for the website that hosted it. We need a replacement for the Mana Drain, badly.

socialite

07-25-2012, 10:15 AM

Vintage is regarded as not a real format anymore

Which is really unfortunate because the format is the best it's ever been; the meta is wide open and diverse. At least in the Boston area we've had a major resurgence. The main LGS has difficulty getting 6 people for weekly Legacy, we will be hitting 20 a week for Vintage very soon. My goal is to focus on player retention although unlike recent years it hasn't been much of an issue this time around (knock on wood).

CorpT

07-25-2012, 10:22 AM

Which is really unfortunate because the format is the best it's ever been; the meta is wide open and diverse. At least in the Boston area we've had a major resurgence. The main LGS has difficulty getting 6 people for weekly Legacy, we will be hitting 20 a week for Vintage very soon. My goal is to focus on player retention although unlike recent years it hasn't been much of an issue this time around (knock on wood).

Do you allow proxies?

Arianrhod

07-25-2012, 10:23 AM

socialite

07-25-2012, 10:30 AM

Do you allow proxies?

Yes. I've actually gone out of my way to fully print and sleeve a meta (RUG Delver, Landstill, Espresso Stax, Martello Stax, UBr - UBg Time Vault Control, Drain Tendrils, Show and Oath, G/W etc) I hand these lists out to people who are typically on the fence about delving into the format. 90% of the time they play the list for a few weeks and either come back with something they have read up on and tuned themselves or start acquiring actual cards for the list I shipped them.

For monthly events we only allow 10 proxy to provide some incentive for buying into the format, this typically attracts Legacy/older players who have a relatively decent card pool. Though I'm thinking of axing these and moving to either a 3 or 6 month larger event to help facilitate a larger prize pool/put less pressure on newer players to spend a large amount of money on an entry fee for a format they are unfamiliar with.

I also set up a Facebook group for the players I know within my immediate friends group to help gauge interest in weekly events and talk about articles etc. It's worth noting that I also push article content I find as well as old primers via email to a lot of the new players (typically the email is the first thing I ask for when I meet someone who's interested in playing).

Teach a man to fish and all that.

I find the main issue with Vintage is ignorance. There are a lot of preconceived misconceptions about the format that people fuel without any actual experience or historical evidence. The format itself has evolved quit a bit over the past 6 years to the point where I'd actual be comfortable calling it Legacy with P9 (generalization but you get the point). If you are short on patience Vintage isn't for you. Like anything in life it requires effort and time. In my experience people either stick with it or drop out quick; the ladder obviously possessing more interest than the former which clearly drives desire to excel. At the end of the day a lot of it revolves around being critical of your own play, this separates players from pros. In addition coming to the realization that variance happens across all formats is key. The only difference is the perceived notion of "fairness" i.e. getting blown out in Vintage looks a lot worse on paper when compared to Legacy, where I would argue the only difference between the two is that in Legacy you actually lost 4 turns ago. The best Vintage players I know focus on minimizing variance by design choices, meta gaming, and being intimately familiar with the list of their choice (stick with one deck). Outside of the card pool Vintage is really no different from any other format and it's fun as hell.

aahz

07-25-2012, 10:45 AM

Dammit. I had to log in to vote. If there was a Vintage forum here to participate in, I might actually post more about Legacy as well (since I usually just lurk and can't be bothered to actually log in). I'm more of a Vintage player anyway and really only started playing Legacy because I couldn't find any one to play Vintage with in my area (luckily this has changed though).

07-25-2012, 11:26 AM

Seeing as to how I am moving the the next couple of week and I looking at growing Vintage in the South (TX/LA/MS area) I think it would be good, because I know there is a Legacy community down there and anything that can help us bridge some players is certainly good. I would certainly post as much as I could, especially posting some tournament info, if I can manage to get something started up.

Einherjer

07-25-2012, 11:35 AM

I am a 1.5 player only. And I do hate all other formats. But Vintage, it's some kind of even more elitist as Legacy. I would like to read about it. Maybe even love it. I do not think I would post anything but I'd really like a Vintage-Subforum to enable us 1.5-only-guys to get into a format even as great as Legacy.

Greetings

socialite

07-25-2012, 11:38 AM

You going to be able to get them to turn out for GP Boston for side events, you think? I only have one piece of power (Jet) + Vault/Library, unfortunately, but if we could get a side event or two to fire I'd be a very happy man even if I couldn't run with full power.

I'm not sure. I could probably wrangle a few people into going and doing something off the books for bragging rights. I typically go to off format GPs to support friends/buy and sell/shits and giggles. Problem is GP Boston is actually in Worcester so it depends on how non lazy people are.

Arianrhod

07-25-2012, 11:48 AM

Yeah. I haven't decided if I'm even going to bother trying to play in the main event or not. I don't really want to, but I'll have 1, maybe 2 byes off planeswalker points, and that'll be the first GP after the new season, so I kind of feel like grinding a few rounds just for the multiplier wouldn't be a horrible idea, so that I'd have something in the books for a GP that I actually want to play in. But between Tedin being up there (Time Vault wants signed very badly) and the fact that TJ's side events are always awesome (loot case ftw), I'm definitely going to be making the trip up.

socialite

07-25-2012, 11:51 AM

Shit, Mark and RK are going to be there... definitely making the trip.

nedleeds

07-25-2012, 12:06 PM

I'll be at GP Boston and I'll sling some vintage if an event fires and my deck is legal (~15 proxy).

Side events are sanctioned ... no proxies ... that being said ...

I believe my name was the only on the sign up sheet for a vintage side event @ GP Atlanta :frown:

When we all get motivated we've been able to get 8 or so out on Sunday for $5-5 proxy vintage here in Atlanta. Nobody has put a ton of effort into promoting it (or printing out entire proxied decks ...).

All that being said, I don't have much interest in posting anything other than tourney reports, general banter and smack talk on a vintage forum. I don't want to talk about decks, I don't want to share decks or anything. For vintage people should be brewing in dark rooms with hoods on.

bfeingersh

07-25-2012, 12:06 PM

It's hard to push vintage as a format when most people don't see it as a format for magic the gathering, but an alternate lifestyle choice.

That being said, I'd like to see a vintage format board on here. Thanks to the efforts of Ertai's Familiar and other Boston-area vintage diehards, I've really gotten into the format and I try to show up weekly. Once you get over the initial shock value of plays that can happen, it's really fun and deep. I'll be at GP Boston and I'll sling some vintage if an event fires and my deck is legal (~15 proxy).

TheElvishPiper

07-25-2012, 12:10 PM

I would post. It would definitely be nice to have somewhere to discuss Vintage. :cool:

xfxf

07-25-2012, 12:16 PM

All that being said, I don't have much interest in posting anything other than tourney reports, general banter and smack talk on a vintage forum. I don't want to talk about decks, I don't want to share decks or anything. For vintage people should be brewing in dark rooms with hoods on.

Sounds like TMD material. Not good.

bfeingersh

07-25-2012, 12:21 PM

Side events are sanctioned ... no proxies ... that being said ...

I know, but they could run unsanctioned with some or all proxies allowed, as long as they set some kind of standard for proxies (unlikely).

socialite

07-25-2012, 12:36 PM

Sounds like TMD material. Not good.

Was thinking the same thing, probably is the reason he plays complete trash lists as well. Pretty much do not want that attitude around and it has no place on any forum regardless of format.

I know, but they could run unsanctioned with some or all proxies allowed, as long as they set some kind of standard for proxies (unlikely).

This is why I said off the books, there's usually plenty of table space.

nedleeds

07-25-2012, 01:20 PM

Sounds like TMD material. Not good.

What more do you want? You want in depth deck list discussion? Why? Vintage tourney reports are great fun, reflecting on new sets in a vintage light is also interesting (since some cards are gems in vintage and hot garbage in other formats).

Discussing vintage decks is lame. It takes the fun out of the format being the last bastion of degeneracy.

nedleeds

07-25-2012, 01:24 PM

probably is the reason he plays complete trash lists as well.

Shouldn't you be busy chasing solaran_x around the forum to shit on his alters?

If by trash you don't mean xeroxed TMD lists then sure. We also play a basically free bi-weekly 8 man, oh what fucking fun that would be if everyone copied the 3 BoM top 8 shop and dredge lists and pounded each other into repetitive fucking dust.

This fucking self righteous prick is exactly the reason not to have vintage forums.

socialite

07-25-2012, 01:39 PM

Shouldn't you be busy chasing solaran_x around the forum to shit on his alters?

If by trash you don't mean xeroxed TMD lists then sure. We also play a basically free bi-weekly 8 man, oh what fucking fun that would be if everyone copied the 3 BoM top 8 shop and dredge lists and pounded each other into repetitive fucking dust.

This fucking self righteous prick is exactly the reason not to have vintage forums.

Have you tried EDH? It seems better suited for what you are looking for.

nedleeds

07-25-2012, 01:41 PM

Have you tried EDH? It seems better suited for what you are looking for.

Have you tried TC decks? It seems better suited for what you are looking for.

socialite

07-25-2012, 01:46 PM

Have you tried TC decks? It seems better suited for what you are looking for.

Morphling.De is a far superior site for Vintage top 8 and tournament report information.

As far as what I'm looking for, I cannot fathom why you find a fair and balanced meta so offensive other than the fact that you must enjoy dream crushing new players. What I offer people is a window into Vintage and from that point they are allowed to diverge as far as they would like as long as they have fun.

What really isn't fun is trying to introduce people to a format they are entirely unfamiliar with using sub par lists so they fail on the two most important levels; understanding the intricacies of a cyclic meta and how some of the strongest cards in the game function in a pool of similarly powered cards. If you do it any other way people do not have fun, they rage quit, and they stop playing. You may enjoy your eight man format, for me I'm trying to do something bigger and better.

Chikenbok

07-25-2012, 01:50 PM

Vintage is something I've always been interested in, have the cards for, and seem to be quite curious as to how it plays but have never taken the time to get to know the format.

On that note, I feel as if the source had a subforum dedicated to vintage decks and playing the format, I might finally decide to pick up the format and learn to play it. From what I can tell, the format seems fairly diverse right now and this might be an interesting time to get involved.

2 cents.

socialite

07-25-2012, 01:51 PM

nedleeds

07-25-2012, 01:57 PM

Morphling.De is a far superior site for Vintage top 8 and tournament report information.

As far as what I'm looking for, I cannot fathom why you find a fair and balanced meta so offensive other than the fact that you must enjoy dream crushing new players. What I offer people is a window into Vintage and from that point they are allowed to diverge as far as they would like as long as they have fun.

What really isn't fun is trying to introduce people to a format they are entirely unfamiliar with using sub par lists so they fail on the two most important levels; understanding the intricacies of a cyclic meta and how some of the strongest cards in the game function in a pool of similarly powered cards. If you do it any other way people do not have fun, they rage quit, and they stop playing. You may enjoy your eight man format, for me I'm trying to do something bigger and better.

OK, that's a fairer response then 'You suck at magic and bring trash'. I bring new decks to try at the basically free local 8 because basically it's the only place to try things out (I don't really play online). If we all brought xeroxed dredge and shops decks people would stop coming fairly quickly as these matches are fairly tedious and unexciting. Some of the pool of 8-10 who show up are bringing stock lists and it's a good way to gauge the viability of 'trash'.

If your goal is getting people to play I can see why bringing morphling.de's finest 8 all proxied up is a fine idea.

I think a vintage subforum would be fun and interesting, but I think deck development forums in vintage are pretty much useless. TMDs are stale as a day old fart, probably due to a couple of factors, dwindling interest being one, and the desire to keep decks somewhat secret in the small cabalish world of competitive vintage (that still exists in this world). Perhaps some sticky posts describing the pillars of the format (most of which can be quickly lifted from the corners internet) to help new players, but that's about it.

socialite

07-25-2012, 02:08 PM

OK, that's a fairer response then 'You suck at magic and bring trash'. I bring new decks to try at the basically free local 8 because basically it's the only place to try things out (I don't really play online). If we all brought xeroxed dredge and shops decks people would stop coming fairly quickly as these matches are fairly tedious and unexciting. Some of the pool of 8-10 who show up are bringing stock lists and it's a good way to gauge the viability of 'trash'.

If your goal is getting people to play I can see why bringing morphling.de's finest 8 all proxied up is a fine idea.

I think a vintage subforum would be fun and interesting, but I think deck development forums in vintage are pretty much useless. TMDs are stale as a day old fart, probably due to a couple of factors, dwindling interest being one, and the desire to keep decks somewhat secret in the small cabalish world of competitive vintage (that still exists in this world). Perhaps some sticky posts describing the pillars of the format (most of which can be quickly lifted from the corners internet) to help new players, but that's about it.

You and many others overestimate the value of secrecy in Vintage and understate the value of group archetype and deck development. It's silly to think team secrecy is the foundation of TMD's failure, it isn't.

The Vintage card pool is diverse however, the majority of win conditions fall into the same basic premises they have been falling into for the past 15 years. This has been the most busy Vintage year of my MTG career and new set releases, which typically designate a large amount of innovation, have not surprised me with unexpected outcomes even when taking into account a rather high number of Vintage quality cards being released. My point, with basic understanding of the format, one can show up to an event and have a general idea of what each archetype is trying to do regardless of new releases/recent innovation. Group archetype and deck development highlights the need for an excellent understanding of meta decision trees - where you need to be and when in regards to meta slots, sideboards, and even deck choices. This is very important to being successful in Vintage and any format for that matter.

Arianrhod

07-25-2012, 02:19 PM

OK, that's a fairer response then 'You suck at magic and bring trash'. I bring new decks to try at the basically free local 8 because basically it's the only place to try things out (I don't really play online). If we all brought xeroxed dredge and shops decks people would stop coming fairly quickly as these matches are fairly tedious and unexciting. Some of the pool of 8-10 who show up are bringing stock lists and it's a good way to gauge the viability of 'trash'.

If your goal is getting people to play I can see why bringing morphling.de's finest 8 all proxied up is a fine idea.

I think a vintage subforum would be fun and interesting, but I think deck development forums in vintage are pretty much useless. TMDs are stale as a day old fart, probably due to a couple of factors, dwindling interest being one, and the desire to keep decks somewhat secret in the small cabalish world of competitive vintage (that still exists in this world). Perhaps some sticky posts describing the pillars of the format (most of which can be quickly lifted from the corners internet) to help new players, but that's about it.

Frankly, I feel it's that "small cabalish world" view that's keep vintage down. I agree that having a certain amount of secrecy with your "next big thing" is a good idea -- I tend not to post my latest lists on here before going to a legacy event. But that doesn't mean that I'm not still active in my thread, helping others, posting my lists after events and giving thoughts on what worked and didn't, etc. Let's be honest, with the exception of something like Bazaar and Gencon, there isn't enough vintage for people on a forum like this to actually worry about ruining their "tech." This could only help the format as a whole, in my opinion.

That's not to say that we couldn't still have support for "TMD Content" of like tournament reports and so on...but I don't see why we can't have both. You two should stop butting heads and see if there's a way to compromise on behalf of the format's health. The hood+dark room approach hasn't been working out too well.

Swing4Five

07-25-2012, 02:50 PM

I'm part of the Boston scene that has made up a decent amount of the posts here, including one of my best friends: "Ertai's Familiar".

Our local Legacy scene was going rather strongly for quite a while, and has hit a slight snag with a few of our members (including myself), having life events making the weekly events a little more troublesome to get to. Despite this, our Vintage scene is vibrant and growing, largely due to the efforts of said "Ertai's Familiar".

I think that if there other burgeoning Vintage communities out there, a forum that lets each of our local groups cross pollinate ideas would benefit all involved. Whether that forum should be here or TMD is up for debate (as evidenced by the existence of this thread).

Here is some purely anecdotal evidence that here could be the place though: I went looking on TMD last week for inspiration on a few deck ideas, and after seeing the lack of updates on the forum in general, just went back to my notebook. This thread (and the Facebook posts by our local guys on this thread) actually got me to post here for the first time in months.

Having said all that; I am more of a lurker than a poster, due more to laziness than lack of opinions, so I voted for the second option. But who knows, maybe all this will kick my ass into actually writing out posts, it did once so far.

Koby

07-25-2012, 04:05 PM

Yes.

In a hypothetical forum that included: Pimp Vintage Decks (no Bronies allowed), Decks & Technology, Tournaments & Reports, Cool Story Bro!, and State of the Format. Or something like that, I would post in each of those forums (likely more regularly than Legacy).

Borealis

07-25-2012, 04:14 PM

To clarify my vote, the answer is that if I do start playing Vintage, yes I will probably post frequently. One must first know something about the format before he opens his big dumb head to speak though.

Either way, I think the Source is the best place to have an intelligent and thorough breakdown of the various decks and their status within the format. I can appreciate the mystery aspect of Vintage, and I certainly don't have any preconceived notions of how "busted" or "fast" or "unfair" it can be. I play Legacy, and that's enough for me to realize that any truly healthy Eternal format rewards fresh design and tight play the most, and forums will only ever get you so far. That said, Vintage is THE degenerate format, so no amount of mystery or lacktherof is going to stop the best players from crushing the noobs at real tournaments. Mystery will not be lost.

Turins666

07-25-2012, 05:58 PM

i would post in a pimp thread fore sure

Use capitalization and punctuation please. Thanks. -zilla

Snap_Keep

07-25-2012, 08:15 PM

What is there to talk about?

Isn't Vintage just Dredge/Shop/Ritual Storm/Blue goodstuff.dec?

Not being a hater, but I just don't see there being much to discuss. Plus, who wants to buy power? Buying duals and other legacy staples is ridiculous enough!

Snap_Keep

07-25-2012, 08:26 PM

Can we get a 5 Color sub forum or a 100 card Highlander sub forum?

That sounds way more fun.

menace13

07-25-2012, 09:24 PM

I'm glad you are interested, feel free to shoot me some PM's if you ever have questions. It's worth noting that NY has a fantastic Vintage scene and the best out of North America.

Where in NY? I'm assuming Upstate or Long Island?

socialite

07-25-2012, 10:50 PM

Where in NY? I'm assuming Upstate or Long Island?

Nothing in the city, I believe mostly in Vally Stream and Selden. Decent amount of events in NJ as well.

bfeingersh

07-26-2012, 12:15 AM

Can we get a 5 Color sub forum or a 100 card Highlander sub forum?

That sounds way more fun.

Rainbow stairwell imo.

menace13

07-26-2012, 01:26 AM

Rainbow stairwell imo.

Throwback!!!! Love me some Rainbow Stairwell.

@Ertai-Thank you for the info. I doubt I'll be going anytime soon but good to know in case I ever do.

rxavage

07-26-2012, 01:30 AM

I might have to check this vintage scene out in Boston. Where are these tournaments held?

lordofthepit

07-26-2012, 01:38 AM

I'd certainly read and post in a Vintage subforum. I'd also play if there were reasonable proxy tournaments in the Seattle area.

It confuses me why there is no Vintage subforum yet, but there is a Modern subforum. I would expect that most Sourcers identify more closely with Vintage than they do Modern.

csy

07-26-2012, 01:51 AM

I'd love to have a vintage forum on the site. Whoever said ny is the best never played at knightware.

07-26-2012, 08:40 AM

I'd love to have a vintage forum on the site. Whoever said ny is the best never played at knightware.

He meant it is the best for availability of tournaments, which he is completely right.

I don't think there is a place on Earth where every single weekend there is a Vintage tournament available that will almost certainly have ~30 people and be within a 3 hour drive, which is essentially what we have access to here in NY, between us, NJ and PA.

socialite

07-26-2012, 09:37 AM

I might have to check this vintage scene out in Boston. Where are these tournaments held?

Here (http://pandemoniumbooks.com/) on Tuesdays, we start between 6:30-7:00PM. Staff is very friendly, store is cleaner than most with plenty of space.

He meant it is the best for availability of tournaments, which he is completely right.

I don't think there is a place on Earth where every single weekend there is a Vintage tournament available that will almost certainly have ~30 people and be within a 3 hour drive, which is essentially what we have access to here in NY, between us, NJ and PA.

Yeap!

Anarky87

07-26-2012, 10:33 AM

I don't see why not. At the worst it'd be like the Modern subforum where hardly anything happens, so. But like someone else said, Legacy players probably have more in common with Vintage than Modern.

(nameless one)

07-26-2012, 10:48 AM

I just learned about Toronto's secret Vintage community and I am actually interested in joining it (I wanna run MUD). I have most of the staples sans the Moxen and Workshop but they do allow proxies.

I would love to learn more about different list/strategies and sideboarding. Also, who knows.

Also the Toronto crew is planning to go to Waterbury this fall and I'd like to see really crazy plays (such as emptying hands of permission trying to resolve a Recall)

bowvamp

07-26-2012, 10:57 AM

Hey, I like the Modern subforum. Actually, I just found out about the Modern subforum. :P
As far as T1 is concerned, I remember briefly becoming interested in it around the time Smemmen was working on Manaless Dredge. I built my own version of the deck but was never able to test it. It had all kinds of cool interactions including a fairly strong SB and a couple of creatures that were very techy MD. I think Caldera lands were somewhere in the mix.
EDIT: and by that I mean, I would casually browse it while I take my brief hiatus from the current degenerate legacy environment.

socialite

07-26-2012, 11:15 AM

I just learned about Toronto's secret Vintage community and I am actually interested in joining it (I wanna run MUD). I have most of the staples sans the Moxen and Workshop but they do allow proxies.

Yeah so the events in Mississauga seem pretty solid. The host is even willing to loan out decks to people who are interested in playing but do not own the card pool. I would check it out if I were you, Richard is a stand up guy and a very strong Landstill player.

(nameless one)

07-26-2012, 11:27 AM

Yeah so the events in Mississauga seem pretty solid. The host is even willing to loan out decks to people who are interested in playing but do not own the card pool. I would check it out if I were you, Richard is a stand up guy and a very strong Landstill player.

Actually it is in Mississauga. And yes, I think it's Richard (the dude who does Vintage events in his basement). I learned it from the folks during the last Moxen tourney at Teddy N Me south.

Dude, are you from Sauga and where do you usually go?

socialite

07-26-2012, 11:42 AM

Actually it is in Mississauga. And yes, I think it's Richard (the dude who does Vintage events in his basement). I learned it from the folks during the last Moxen tourney at Teddy N Me south.

Dude, are you from Sauga and where do you usually go?

Yep Yep. I'm from Boston.

If you want to read up before the next event...

Primer (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41811.0) and Old Primer (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40607.0).

There's a small amount of articles on Star City Games in regards to Workshops but most of the lists are dated. I would pay attention to Matt Elias or Stephen Menendian in regards to articles. For actual lists I would pay attention to Fabian Moyshewitz (Europe), Nick Detwiler (USA), and Raffaele Forino (USA) as they are the most stand out Workshop players in Type 1.

This (http://morphling.de/) is an excellent website for Top 8 lists across USA/Europe. It's a great resource for judging meta games and figuring out what you need to run in the board.

menace13

07-26-2012, 11:44 AM

Yeah so the events in Mississauga seem pretty solid. The host is even willing to loan out decks to people who are interested in playing but do not own the card pool. I would check it out if I were you, Richard is a stand up guy and a very strong Landstill player.

Richard and Landstill. Would that be Shockwave? Know him from MTGO. Very cool dude even offered to lend me almost any Legacy deck If I was going to GP Providence.

socialite

07-26-2012, 11:48 AM

Richard and Landstill. Would that be Shockwave? Know him from MTGO. Very cool dude even offered to lend me almost any Legacy deck If I was going to GP Providence.

Yeap. Pretty much the guy who put Vintage Landstill on the map.

aahz

07-26-2012, 11:55 AM

Since there is much plugging for Vintage events, this seems like a good time to point out that there are 2 Vintage events in California this weekend. This one in Norcal (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24246-Vintage-for-Cash-2-7-28-12-Vacaville-CA) and this one in Socal (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24191-Los-Angeles-CA-Vintage-Sunday-July-29-2012-Knight-Ware-Inc.-15-20-entry). Come on out if you can! The west coast needs more Vintage love.

Koby

07-26-2012, 11:55 AM

Yeap. Pretty much the guy who put Vintage Landstill on the map.

LOL That's great! I'm sure I frustrated him with my stupid Elves deck online. My how small a community we have in Eternal.

socialite

07-26-2012, 11:58 AM

LOL That's great! I'm sure I frustrated him with my stupid Elves deck online. My how small a community we have in Eternal.

I'd be careful a lot of the Landstill lists run EE now, though I believe Shockwave prefers Null Rod still (it's stronger IMHO).

menace13

07-26-2012, 12:00 PM

Yeap. Pretty much the guy who put Vintage Landstill on the map.

Nice! Yeah, he jams Standstill in every format forever. Met him playing UR Still in Classic and Legacy events.

Koby

07-26-2012, 12:18 PM

I'd be careful a lot of the Landstill lists run EE now, though I believe Shockwave prefers Null Rod still (it's stronger IMHO).

I was referring to Legacy on MTGO, but it's all the same. Landstill does give me fits however in Vintage. Moreso the Mindbreak Traps and Spell Snares maindeck rather than Standstill. Edit: Fuck you Misdirection!!!

socialite

07-26-2012, 12:19 PM

For anyone in the NY area here are the three stores who host a majority of the events...

With a little blurb from Nick D the host:

Long Island is shaped like a fish, with the head being Queens and Brooklyn, the middle section being Nassau County and the back end being Suffolk County. Grim is located in the middle of Suffolk County; not so far out as the Hamptons, but far enough out that you're probably not going to make the trip if you're coming from the Boston area. The events at Comicbook Depot are in the middle of Nassau County - it's a much more reasonable drive. The events at Mark's Comics are on the Queens/Nassau border (thus, the best for our travelers).

Here's contact information for the three stores:

Mark's Comics and Collectibles
291 Central Ave
Valley Stream, N.Y.
(516) 872-5919

The Comicbook Depot
2847 Jerusalem Avenue
Wantagh, NY 11793-2016
(516) 221-9337

Brothers Grim
1244 Middle Country Road
Selden, New York
11784
(631) 698-2805

Fuck you Misdirection!!!

QFMFT lol.

Koby

07-26-2012, 12:43 PM

Koby

07-26-2012, 01:04 PM

I would also like to add that for those in the Southern California area, there is a Vintage proxy tournament this Sunday at Knightware.

Link to thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24191-Los-Angeles-CA-Vintage-Sunday-July-29-2012-Knight-Ware-Inc.-15-20-entry)

aahz

07-26-2012, 01:36 PM

On a completely unrelated note, seeing as this is the defacto Vintage thread until the Vintage forum is established (hopefully),

Thoughts on UB/R Welder-Snap control:
Dark Confidant vs Forbidden Alchemy?
Dark Confidant proved incremental advantage and a decent clock, but is weak against random aggro decks
Forbidden Alchemy digs, removes chaffs off the top, and setups insane Y-Will turns. At the expense of high mana cost. It does make good use of Drain mana in the mid-game, and has built in flash-back.
Admittedly I haven't tried it, but while it sounds good in theory, I worry a bit about the casting cost. I don't think that I'd play it over Bob, but I could see it as 1-2 of. Even though Bob is somewhat fragile, he can provide more card advantage and is good vs. shops, which is a matchup that I suspect Alchemy would be terrible in due to the CMC and not being a creature/artifact. If you are already playing Welders, Baleful Strix is fun. It's card advantage, decent vs. aggro, and can be a house vs. shops. I'm currently trying out ditching snapcasters for welder/strix to see where that leads, but I'll try to test out an Alchemy to see how it plays out since it does appear to have some synergy with Will and welders. Have you done much testing with it? If so, how has it been?

Koby

07-26-2012, 01:56 PM

Have you done much testing with it? If so, how has it been?

I've been rocking this list more or less for 3 months now (linky (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8131&iddeck=59290)), and it has been working very well. People always give me a weird glance when I cast it, but then I just setup insane Snapcaster/Welder/Will tricks.

socialite

07-26-2012, 01:57 PM

On a completely unrelated note, seeing as this is the defacto Vintage thread until the Vintage forum is established (hopefully),

Thoughts on UB/R Welder-Snap control:
Dark Confidant vs Forbidden Alchemy?
Dark Confidant proved incremental advantage and a decent clock, but is weak against random aggro decks
Forbidden Alchemy digs, removes chaffs off the top, and setups insane Y-Will turns. At the expense of high mana cost. It does make good use of Drain mana in the mid-game, and has built in flash-back.

I'll be honest, I'm not a big fan of Steve M's list and I haven't been too impressed with a lot of the lists floating around. In addition the viability and utility of Goblin Welder in the current environment is overrated. If you are playing in a field that primarily consists of Workshops and Fish I could see playing a list like the aforementioned.

That aside taking into consideration your question I have to side with Dark Confidant simply because of the innocuous utility he provides. The format isn’t very receptive to large all in Yawgmoth’s Will turns, recent printings with things like Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap, and Grafdigger’s Cage underscore the issues with total reliance on Will. In addition you are bound to run into splash hate from Dredge if your list is reliant on both Goblin Welder and Forbidden Alchemy. With Dark Confidant you avoid a majority of these issues.

To briefly highlight the redeeming qualities of Dark Confidant:

Permanent based, relevant in the Workshop and Fish matches.
Free card advantage translating into long term tempo gains.
Win condition.

It's also worth noting the utility versus deck space saved you get from running Confidant over a mix of utility spells against Workshops/Fish in addition to the burst card advantage spells.

Seems much better to me.

Arianrhod

07-26-2012, 01:57 PM

At the point at which you are considering Forbidden Alchemy, why not Fact or Fiction?

Koby

07-26-2012, 02:05 PM

At the point at which you are considering Forbidden Alchemy, why not Fact or Fiction?

The one mana cheaper is nicer against blue making it less enticing as a Drain target and easier to cast earlier. This was the factor in game-play that I decided FoF was too expensive. Gifts is still nutter butters, but FoF was too slow and provided too much variance for my liking.

socialite

07-26-2012, 02:22 PM

At the 4CC slot you get Jace/Gifts and EOT FoF does not end the game like it used to. There are just far superior cards for that slot and there's something to be said about tempo losses with such an expensive engine.

xfxf

07-26-2012, 05:05 PM

I'm loving this preview :)

bfeingersh

07-26-2012, 05:29 PM

I really want the vintage forum to open since our local discussions have mainly consisted of yelling at our village idiot for being an idiot, and worshipping the almighty Lava Dart.

socialite

07-26-2012, 06:06 PM

I really want the vintage forum to open since our local discussions have mainly consisted of yelling at our village idiot for being an idiot, and worshipping the almighty Lava Dart.

Lava Dart is no joke.

Koby

07-26-2012, 06:09 PM

Lava Dart is no joke.

Oh boy, here we go again. It's like it's 2007 all over again!

aahz

07-26-2012, 09:43 PM

I've been rocking this list more or less for 3 months now (linky (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8131&iddeck=59290)), and it has been working very well. People always give me a weird glance when I cast it, but then I just setup insane Snapcaster/Welder/Will tricks.
Interesting list. I usually play UBr also but rocking the wizard angle instead (Bob+Snappy+Clique). Bob is super solid almost all the time, though I bounce back and forth between 3 and 4 copies since, like welders, they are sometimes really bad in multiples.

Do you ever feel like you are short on permission? I played a few games last night with your same counter configuration (4xFoW, 2xDrain, 2xMisstep, 1xFlusterstorm), but it seemed like it just isn't enough without at least a Thoughtseize/Duress, especially since you don't have Merchant Scroll or Mystical to find a counter in a pinch.

Also, how has the Helm in the side been treating you? I used to do that, but it started seeming too cute to be taking up a sideboard slot. Does having the welders make it that much better than a space for something else?

Oh boy, here we go again. It's like it's 2007 all over again!
I wasn't paying attention from 2003-2010, so I can't tell if that's good or bad. :tongue:

socialite

07-26-2012, 11:05 PM

Oh man let me tell you about Lava Dart. I run a UBr Drain Tendrils list and I run Lava Dart for a few reasons...

R = 3 Storm
Aven Mindcensor
Dark Confidant
Delver of Secrets
Goblin Welder
Lotus Cobra
Noble Hierarch
Phyrexian Revoker
Snapcaster Mage
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Vendilion Clique
Xantid Swarm

That's not even counting all the stupid jank you could run into out there like Cold-Eyed Selkie, Goblin Lackey, Gorilla Shaman, Grim Lavamancer, all the Elves, Hermit Druid, etc...

There's an astronomical number of relevant X/2s as well.

dontbiteitholmes

07-27-2012, 12:51 AM

Yes I would. I think you would get a lot of the ManaDrain crowd as well.

Phoenix Ignition

07-27-2012, 03:03 AM

No interest at all, but scrolling down an extra ~3 threads to see things I am interested in isn't hard at all.

I'm one of the few people who likes Modern, and I'm sure there are a few who like Vintage. Why not put it on the forum?

But honestly, I'd be more interested in Standard, as I could find a tournament for that if I ever wanted to play it.

Klazam

07-27-2012, 03:08 AM

I'd want this so much. Vintage has always looked incredibly interesting to me, but i have not started playing because of the lack of resources. There's so little on the internet, and most of it is outdated.

(Are there any vintage groups in the DC-MD-VA area?)

xfxf

07-27-2012, 05:05 AM

Obviously a "Playgroups in Your Area" thread is much needed for Vintage.

mmcgeach

07-27-2012, 02:20 PM

Dark Confidant vs Forbidden Alchemy?
Dark Confidant proved incremental advantage and a decent clock, but is weak against random aggro decks
Forbidden Alchemy digs, removes chaffs off the top, and setups insane Y-Will turns.

I'd post in a vintage subforum!

Also in response to the above quote... Dark Confidant is usually *good* vs. random aggro since it trades with one of their dudes. Also I dunno how much you have to be worried about "random aggro" in a real vintage tournament. I mean, you probably do have to worry about specific fish decks like Noble Fish or RUG Delver, and sometimes workshop aggro, but actual tuned vintage lists tend to be pretty good against random stuff people throw together.

Consider Forbidden Alchemy is clearly inferior to Thirst for Knowledge. TfK is restricted, but even still, many decks don't run it cause it's too expensive for what it does. Three mana is pretty expensive for a card that cycles and has no ability to provide card advantage. Although there is some precedent in combo decks for cards that just provide digging for combo-pieces: impulse in Oath decks, for example. But the combo has to be strong enough that digging for it is worth the mana+card investment. A deck like Two-Card Monte https://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31265 or Steel City Vault http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29762 might actually want something like forbidden alchemy. But forbidden alchemy shouldn't be considered in place of a card draw engine like Dark Confidant.

... so, bring on the Vintage subforum?

Solaran_X

07-27-2012, 02:40 PM

Also in response to the above quote... Dark Confidant is usually *good* vs. random aggro since it trades with one of their dudes. Also I dunno how much you have to be worried about "random aggro" in a real vintage tournament. I mean, you probably do have to worry about specific fish decks like Noble Fish or RUG Delver, and sometimes workshop aggro, but actual tuned vintage lists tend to be pretty good against random stuff people throw together.
The problem is that there are quite a few "tuned" Vintage Aggro lists that require only minimum Power (typically a Lotus and on-color Mox[en]). Some of them look quite fun, like the mono-white one and the Vintage-Edition of Deadguy Ale.

Koby

07-30-2012, 01:33 AM

Vintage forum needs to come sooner, so I can brag about how awesome my deck is. Split in finals of a 13 man, losing only 4 games, each in different matches.

Amon Amarth

07-30-2012, 06:03 AM

Maybe it's just me but why is there no actual good forums to discuss any of the other formats like Limited? Isn't that just weird?

mmcgeach

07-30-2012, 02:19 PM

The problem is that there are quite a few "tuned" Vintage Aggro lists that require only minimum Power (typically a Lotus and on-color Mox[en]). Some of them look quite fun, like the mono-white one and the Vintage-Edition of Deadguy Ale.

OH man, there should be a vintage subforum!

First, as an aside, the requirements of vintage decks to run power is a regional one: tournaments in USA allow 15 proxies (or more), while tournaments in Europe allow no proxies. But it's common in European tournaments to give out significant prizes to the top-performing unpowered deck.

There's historically been very few good (pure) aggro decks in Vintage. I think the reason for this is two-fold: 1) there's fast and strong combos in vintage, which tend to provide a more efficient wincon than swinging with dudes or bolts to the face, leading people who might want to play aggro to play combo instead, and leading people who do play aggro to lose to combo players. And 2) decks that get bigger dudes into play using, eg, oath of druids or mishra's workshop. That being said, here's a pure aggro deck that got 2nd in a 41-player tournament: http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1580&d=2. (41-players is pretty respectable for vintage events. Also note he lost in the finals to Oath of Druids.)

Thus, the successful aggro decks have to be at least half focused on disruption. In vintage this means artifact destruction in addition to the discard and wastelands common in legacy. This basically define the "fish" archetype. There's sort of a careful balance a fish deck has to run between playing aggressive creatures and disruptive creatures. It's not quite as simple as taking a successful legacy deck and adding moxes and a lotus. There are, of course, successful ports of legacy decks to vintage, but it requires some testing and development to get the build right. And I think this would be a great benefit of a Vintage subforum here! We could get great legacy players thinking about how best to bring aggro decks and successful legacy builds to the vintage format. It's win-win!

This thread is already full of great vintage discussion...

socialite

07-30-2012, 02:28 PM

The only straight aggro deck viable in Vintage is Dredge. If you want to play aggro but not Dredge, Fish is it. RUG, Bant, GW, and BUG are all solid choices.

Koby

07-30-2012, 03:56 PM

The only acceptable form of Aggro is attacking with Myr Battelsphere and his army of peons.

aahz

07-30-2012, 04:04 PM

The only acceptable form of Aggro is attacking with Myr Battelsphere and his army of peons.
My Alpha Scathe Zombie tokens beg to differ. :tongue:

Solaran_X

07-31-2012, 03:39 AM

My Alpha Scathe Zombie tokens beg to differ. :tongue:
All the budget aggro decks wit 3-4 Grafdigger's Cage and 3-4 Stony Silence/Null Rod beg to differ with you both.

Koby

07-31-2012, 10:04 AM

All the budget aggro decks wit 3-4 Grafdigger's Cage and 3-4 Stony Silence/Null Rod beg to differ with you both.

Still dense I see. Explain how removing none of Battleball's activated abilities stop it from turning sideways, Mr Ponypower.

bfeingersh

07-31-2012, 11:02 AM

Posting my current BUG list for opinions. I started with a list that got top 8 at BoM, made a few changes and I'm pretty happy with it. Now that Tinker's gone I think I'm going to cut Crypt for something, I don't know if I need more mana or if I can just have it be another Snapcaster.

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trygon Predator

Disruption:
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Mystic Remora

Draw/Tutor:
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

Busted:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Mana:
5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Dismember
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Yixlid Jailor
3 Nature's Claim

Koby

07-31-2012, 11:29 AM

Not sure why even include Y-will when there's no inherently broken spell to cast. You should probably also bump Gush to 3-4 copies as a source of card advantage. Adding a 2nd Jace wouldn't hurt too, since you're trying to play fair. I'm glad to see no Mystical Tutor in the list - the card is just bad and overhyped.

bfeingersh

07-31-2012, 11:31 AM

My first change to the BoM list was - Mystical Scroll Tinker Colossus Vault Key, +2 Snapcaster 2 Thoughtseize 2 Standstill. The Standstills became Remoras but the Snapcasters stuck around. I put Scroll back in when I added Gush (cut Sower and 3rd Trygon)

Will is never really used to end the game, just for value (flash back an Ancestral, play an extra creature, take an extra turn, etc.).

Koby

07-31-2012, 11:37 AM

Seems like just adding more Snapcasters would get the job done better.

nedleeds

07-31-2012, 11:43 AM

All the budget aggro decks wit 3-4 Grafdigger's Cage and 3-4 Stony Silence/Null Rod beg to differ with you both.

Stony Silence is out of my main for Gencon. Kataki and Pridemage will have to get it done. Stony Silence is dead a doorknob against the man based shop decks (and even just plain old smokestack) and is pretty useless vs. the Delver decks. At this point it's best use is stopping Time Vault.

I think it's a fine card but being dead against all the above and Dredge (and other g/w aggro stuff) means moving it to the side (at least for me).

Oh ... and it can't attack.

socialite

07-31-2012, 01:17 PM

Ben,
If I were you I would probably drop Gush for Mystic Remora #3 and Merchant Scroll for JtMS #2. Dark Confidant coupled with Mystic Remora is a solid choice for our local meta.

Despite a few bigger names running Gush with Remora, I found the synergy between the two more detrimental then beneficial. Gush isn't well positioned enough to run a straight Gro build and to be honest a lot of those builds were super greedy running both Dark Confidant and Gush.

Merchant scroll is clunky with Remora and rather lacking considering your target selection.

If you want to run a miser's Strip Mine OK but cut the Wasteland for a basic Island and adjust the dual to basic ratio. You almost certainly want a basic Forest out of the board as well. The mana base in it's current form is just asking for punishment.

Koby

07-31-2012, 01:29 PM

@Ben
Got me thinking... Cut Gush, Scroll, Will, and 2 Remoras; add 1 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Trinket Mage, 1 Skullclamp, and Jace #2.

SnapClamp baby!
<grin>

xfxf

07-31-2012, 01:38 PM

Guys, shouldn't you be discussing this in the Vintage BUG thread? Oh sorry, we were trying to get it opened, my bad...

Arianrhod

07-31-2012, 02:56 PM

I guess for now this will have to do, until our desire is recognized!

I'll contribute my Bomberman build:

3x Jace TMS
1x Tezz the Seeker

3x Trinket Mage
3x Auriok Salvagers
3x Snapcaster Mage

3x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
2x Mental Misstep
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Vamp Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Brainstorm
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Repeal

5x Moxen
1x Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Aether Spellbomb
1x Sensei's Divining Top

2x Island
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Library of Alexandria

//Sb
2x Devout Witness
3x Energy Flux
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Yixlid Jailer
2x Massacre
2x Flusterstorm

Still very unsure about some of the choices -- experimenting with running Top and Repeal instead of a tinkerbot and Thirst. Thirst was always meh whenever I found it, Tinkerbot has so many commonly maindecked answers it isn't even funny anymore. I always thought Top wouldn't do enough for me, but it's been pretty good so far, and tricks with Key and Repeal are always awesome. Repeal gives me (an) answer for Stoney Silence other than just beating down or planeswalkers, which is nice.

mmcgeach

07-31-2012, 03:53 PM

I agree with the Bob + Jace + Remora suggestion for the BUG fish deck... that's definitely the conventional wisdom or safest choice. That Trinket Mage + Skullclamp idea is more out there... could be a lot of fun. :)

For Bomberman, you need Cavern of Souls. All your men are humans and having your combo being uncounterable is pretty strong. Why no EE? (And that's a legitimate question... I haven't played bomberman enough to know if spellbombs do enough w/o EE).

Arianrhod

07-31-2012, 03:59 PM

I was actually thinking about editing in that I'm planning on trying a pair of Caverns tonight at my local, but had decided to wait until after the event =P I should probably trim out two of the Deltas, I'm guessing (which annoys me, since they're pack foil and the strands just regular lol).

EE hasn't impressed me whenever I've tried it. I'd like it if it could kill Null Rod or Stony Silence, but obviously there's a problem there. Dredge is a faceroll already since black allows me to play Nihil Spellbomb. It could be decent against shops, but at the same time, it doesn't kill the things I really care about (ie Lodestone Golem). It would also likely have to be tutored, and resolving a Trinket Mage can be hard enough, even with full artifact mana and Drains. Besdies, I'd rather just drop Energy Flux and watch them writhe in agony.

bfeingersh

07-31-2012, 11:59 PM

@Ben
Got me thinking... Cut Gush, Scroll, Will, and 2 Remoras; add 1 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Trinket Mage, 1 Skullclamp, and Jace #2.

SnapClamp baby!
<grin>

If I had seen this message 6 hours earlier I could have tried it tonight. I ran the above list -1 Crypt +1 Snapcaster to 3-1 tonight, lost to Bant fish off 2 mulls to 5 :(

Final Ritual

08-01-2012, 01:07 AM

Arianrhod

08-01-2012, 07:47 AM

Repeal was a boss for me all night. Cavern was never relevant one way or the other...not sure what I think about it at this point. Definitely nice for my creatures to resolve for certain, but if they're holding a counter, it'll just nuke my Lotus, which is awkward and annoying.

Lost the last round to Cobra Gush -- my opponent had the stonecold nuts both games, and I actually misplayed really badly in game two, or I might have stabilized -through- his draw. Even as a tutor for Vault/Key/Lotus/Spellbomb, Tinker isn't impressing me at the moment. Might try to cut that. If I cut Tinker, do you guys think I should also cut Mana Crypt?

Icapica

08-01-2012, 07:57 AM

Yes. I've actually gone out of my way to fully print and sleeve a meta (RUG Delver, Landstill, Espresso Stax, Martello Stax, UBr - UBg Time Vault Control, Drain Tendrils, Show and Oath, G/W etc) I hand these lists out to people who are typically on the fence about delving into the format. 90% of the time they play the list for a few weeks and either come back with something they have read up on and tuned themselves or start acquiring actual cards for the list I shipped them.
This got me interested, as I'd love to get to play Vintage. Could someone show me typical lists that are usually found in a meta? I could try to print and sleeve at least some and then perhaps more if I find some people willing to play. Also is there any place where I can actually read some good info on the state of the format? I've tried browsing TheManaDrain sometimes but it's hard to find anything useful or up to date there.

xfxf

08-01-2012, 08:12 AM

Yes I think a kind of a general primer about the format with sample decklists would be a great resource for those of us trying to get initiated in the format. We all know the pillars but there are major archetypes within pillars whic are different then each other. From what I can tell there are a lot of gray areas as well especially in the mana drain pillar but I'm sure still a skeleton can be composed as a general introduction.

B.C.

08-01-2012, 10:52 AM

Not exactly a format primer, but it has all the decklists you could ever want:

http://www.morphling.de/

xfxf

08-01-2012, 10:55 AM

Yes I know about morphling.de, there are also tons of decks in thecouncil.es, mtgdecks.net but I was thinking from a Vintage forum point of view, not just decklists but matchup analysis, variations, general strategies etc.

socialite

08-01-2012, 10:56 AM

This got me interested, as I'd love to get to play Vintage. Could someone show me typical lists that are usually found in a meta? I could try to print and sleeve at least some and then perhaps more if I find some people willing to play. Also is there any place where I can actually read some good info on the state of the format? I've tried browsing TheManaDrain sometimes but it's hard to find anything useful or up to date there.

I've posted it a bunch of times and I'll say it again, the best place for up to date lists from around the world is Morphling (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/Morphling.de).

If you want primers you will need to go digging through TMD or old SCG articles. If a Vintage subforum is opened here I'd be willing to consolidate the relevant ones.

This (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37514.0) could be a decent start for what you want though (most of it is pretty dated but it's an excellent resource from a historical standpoint).

Koby

08-01-2012, 11:14 AM

socialite

08-01-2012, 11:28 AM

I would be willing to write up some (simple) primers on one or two of the pillars to get things started here on The Source. It wouldn't be comprehensive, since I probably don't have enough facetime with the deck to really explain the finer points of each angle, but it should get things started.

So... when do we open up the subforum (Nihil Credo / Bardo / Di)?

It's easier and far more beneficial to new players to link comprehensive articles even if a few of the card choices are supplanted by newer cards i.e. Snapcaster -> Regrowth.

One of the biggest TMD failures was the overzealous use of absolute statements. Posters would fire off suggestions that lacked sufficient reasoning and well articulated play testing examples. I’m already starting to see a bunch of ideas in this thread that walk that line. An archetype spread written by someone lacking experience will not be that helpful. There are plenty of well written primers by past TMD greats/SCG writers like Matt Elias and Steven Menendian that still contain relevant information.

We should probably just copy over the Vintage encyclopedia I linked above since that contains primers and deck lists starting from 1000 BC on in an easy to read format.

B.C.

08-02-2012, 10:15 AM

New primers and matchup analyses will come when people find the time to write them, but NOT until the Vintage threads are open. So...

Nihil Credo

08-03-2012, 04:39 AM

Up.

Post any feedback about the forum structure here.

lordofthepit

08-03-2012, 04:48 AM

Up.

Post any feedback about the forum structure here.

Awesome! Time to catch up myself up on 8 years of Vintage development.

dahcmai

08-04-2012, 05:13 AM

I wouldn't post in it or read it, but I don't see a reason for why it shouldn't exist. The Mana Drain is pretty much dead and I don't know of any others that are really worth reading. Morphling isn't bad, but a little obscure. I'd have to say just open it up and see how it goes.

To those of us like myself who either quit vintage a while back or plain never got into it in the first place, it's no skin off our backs obviously. It's not like we're forced to read it or something. I'll just skip over it and if I ever decide to get back into that format, it's nice to know it's there.