Legacy Griffins: Food Chain, Manipulate Fate and Fun

[metamet]

Legacy Griffins: Food Chain, Manipulate Fate and Fun (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2012/07/legacy-griffins-food-chain-manipulate-fate-and-fun/)

I wrote this, outlining my current favorite deck.

I had a lot to say, but I was already hitting 1400 words and was worried about getting super long and boring. :)

Any feedback? Haven't written a "here's a new deck!" type of article before, so it was a new experience.

[Esper3k]

Very cool - I've always wanted to get Griffin to work (currently messing around with a Sea Stompy build trying to abuse it with FoW & Chrome Mox). Glad to see more people trying to use this very interesting card!

[metamet]

Thank you!

I tried Chrome Mox (and Misdirection) as a way of taking advantage of the Griffins, but I found that the Manipulate Fates were sort of counter-intuitive to that type of abuse. :)

The ramp from the Mox would definitely be helpful, though. How many lands are you running? This deck only runs 18, plus 4 mana dorks and 3 Wall of Roots.

[rufus]

The silly voice in the back of my head wants me to ask about using Serum Powder, and alternative finishing cards like Rune Scarred Demon -> Phantasmal Image chains and Maga, Traitor to Mortals/Deathforge Shaman.

How do you feel about Court Hussar/Sea Gate Oracle/Raven Familiar as an alternative to the Empath/Hierarch/Wall of Roots package?

[Kich867]

The silly voice in the back of my head wants me to ask about using Serum Powder, and alternative finishing cards like Rune Scarred Demon -> Phantasmal Image chains and Maga, Traitor to Mortals/Deathforge Shaman.

How do you feel about Court Hussar/Sea Gate Oracle/Raven Familiar as an alternative to the Empath/Hierarch/Wall of Roots package?

Seems like empath is too important given that it tutors both griselbrand and emrakul.

[metamet]

The silly voice in the back of my head wants me to ask about using Serum Powder, and alternative finishing cards like Rune Scarred Demon -> Phantasmal Image chains and Maga, Traitor to Mortals/Deathforge Shaman.

How do you feel about Court Hussar/Sea Gate Oracle/Raven Familiar as an alternative to the Empath/Hierarch/Wall of Roots package?

I tested all three of those and wasn't impressed with them. Although they dig and draw a card, it's not fast enough. Those three cards each cost three and draw us a card. Mulldrifter does this better and can blow up the Chain.

The Empath is necessary for the deck, and the Hierarch and Wall of Roots speed the deck up considerably, especially since we only have 18 lands. Empath can grab AEthersnipe, Griselbrand and Emrakul. I've thought about putting other targets in the side, but the only thing I'm afraid of is Humility, which creatures don't do anything against.


The combo requires Food Chain, Misthollow Griffin and Empath. We have Manipulate Fates for the Griffin, and Ponders, Brainstorm and Jace for the Empath and Chain. We can win with Empath and Chain or with Griffin and Chain. Having the third element means we get to take an extra turn with Emmy.

I've thought about alternative win cons, but nothing seems to beat Emrakul when we're talking about unlimited mana. The Griselbrand could be perceived as an alt wincon, but the fact that Emrakul is uncounterable (which Maga isn't) and just wins the game (since we likely have at least one other Griffin willing to swing alongside Emmy) means it's the only finisher the deck will likely ever need. :(

[Phoenix Ignition]

I've tried variations of this deck but found they were too dependent on Food Chain. If you get it you can win most of the games, but if you don't get it you will lose most of the games. Let's face it, it's just a bad aggro deck if you don't hit/keep on the field Food Chain. How does this deck win the games where FC is shut down or you just don't find it?

[Darkenslight]

The only other things I could think of were Emmy's younger cousins, Koz and Ula. Ula as counter-hate for Humility and Koz because who doesn't love card-draw?

[metamet]

I've tried variations of this deck but found they were too dependent on Food Chain. If you get it you can win most of the games, but if you don't get it you will lose most of the games. Let's face it, it's just a bad aggro deck if you don't hit/keep on the field Food Chain. How does this deck win the games where FC is shut down or you just don't find it?

I bring in three Goyfs and two Cliques from the side. It's not too hard to ensure that your Food Chain resolves.

But assuming they get countered and Extirpated, you can still win by being a very evasive, mediocre aggro deck. A 3/3 flyer is nothing to shake a stick at, especially when complimented by Hierarch's exalted. You can keep Walls on the ground to keep you alive, and sticking a Jace swings the tempo in your favor. A hard casted Mulldrifter isn't too bad, either.

Although the deck explodes when you have a resolved Chain, it's not unreasonable to win with evasive beats and permission. I've done it a few times. :)

[metamet]

The only other things I could think of were Emmy's younger cousins, Koz and Ula. Ula as counter-hate for Humility and Koz because who doesn't love card-draw?

That's right! Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre is when it's cast! Hmm.

[boneclub24]

Should have called this "Food For Thought"

[Gammadoom]

Very cool - I've always wanted to get Griffin to work (currently messing around with a Sea Stompy build trying to abuse it with FoW & Chrome Mox). Glad to see more people trying to use this very interesting card!

Griffin + Chrome Mox doesn't seem particularly awesome. If the card that you've imprinted on Chrome Mox ceases to be exiled then the Chrome Mox doesn't tap for mana anymore.

[metamet]

Should have called this "Food For Thought"

This is good. I need more semi-puns in my life. :)

[Star|Scream]

Griffin + Chrome Mox doesn't seem particularly awesome. If the card that you've imprinted on Chrome Mox ceases to be exiled then the Chrome Mox doesn't tap for mana anymore.

I'm not doubting this statement, but is there a ruling somewhere that specifically states this?

[rufus]

I'm not doubting this statement, but is there a ruling somewhere that specifically states this?

From the card text.

Add one mana of any of the exiled card's colors to your mana pool.
No exiled card - no color. It's similar to not imprinting a card on it at all.

[Darkenslight]

Hmm, is there any way to possibly incorporate Storm Entity into a list? I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be decent here once you've comboed out with Misthollow and Food Chain.

[Awaclus]

Hmm, is there any way to possibly incorporate Storm Entity into a list? I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be decent here once you've comboed out with Misthollow and Food Chain.
I think Maga, Traitor to Mortals (or whatever is his name) would be almost strictly better in every aspect, except that it doesn't dodge Gaddog Teeg like Storm Entity does.

[Valtrix]

I think Maga, Traitor to Mortals (or whatever is his name) would be almost strictly better in every aspect, except that it doesn't dodge Gaddog Teeg like Storm Entity does.

Maga is a creature, so it still gets around Gaddock Teeg.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Griffin + Chrome Mox doesn't seem particularly awesome. If the card that you've imprinted on Chrome Mox ceases to be exiled then the Chrome Mox doesn't tap for mana anymore.

By the time you're actually casting the Griffin you should be okay without the mana either way. Either you already have 3 other mana sources and can play 90% of the deck or you combo out.

[sderenatore]

3 Misthollow Griffin
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mulldrifter
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 AEthersnipe
1 Griselbrand
4 Food Chain
2 Manipulate Fate
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Raven Familiar
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Spell Pierce


SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

I really liked the list and i tried it. You were right: really really funny deck.
I made some modifies though in order to make it more consistent rather than fast. In this way we are able to ALWAYS find a way to be dangerous in some ways instead of dropping Wall of Roots.

Explanation:
-3 Wall +3 Raven Familiar: I really find the wall pointless unless we already have a great hand and he can help us playing it faster. Raven is there to help us while comboing or to actually dig our library (Preferred to Court Hussar because of fly, and can actually block before being sacrificed to echo.. In the worst situation we could want to pay the echo cost too. Preferred to the Oracle cause you get to see 3 cards instead of 2).

-2 Jace +2 Birds of PAradise: Again, I don't see the utility to play jace in a deck that wants to win fast and has 18 lands.. Everytime it ended out being a great pitch to fow. Birds could actually be lands, I am still testing how 6 accel works though.

-1 Manipulate +1 Ponder: Ok cool tech, but we don't really want to see more than one, ponder will help us more in almost every occasion.

-3 Daze +3 Spell Pierce: I am more worried about opponent's counterspell than anything else and I want to be as sure as possible to actually counter them.

I am still working on the sb, So don't take it as an example (also it's incomplete).

-------------------EDIT

I actually changed the list again.. I feel that now really works! The solution was to add 3x Drift of Phantasm (transmuting for food chain or fierce impact), removing Manipulate fate and adding again 2x of Wall of Roots.

So My new list is now:

3 Misthollow Griffin
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mulldrifter
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 AEthersnipe
1 Griselbrand
2 Raven Familiar
2 Wall of Roots
3 Drift of Phantasms

4 Food Chain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce

4 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Ancient Tomb

Way more consistent thanks to the Phantasm, unpredictable and Spell Pierce has worked great!

[metamet]

So My new list is now:

3 Misthollow Griffin
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mulldrifter
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 AEthersnipe
1 Griselbrand
2 Raven Familiar
2 Wall of Roots
3 Drift of Phantasms

4 Food Chain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce

4 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Ancient Tomb

Way more consistent thanks to the Phantasm, unpredictable and Spell Pierce has worked great!

I actually started the deck with a list VERY similar to this, but removed the Ravens and the Drift because I felt they were far too slow. I suppose you're concentrating on consistency and late game where as I am looking to hammer things out within the first five turns, ending it with the alt of Jace.

I have been thinking about Spell Pierces of Daze's for a while. Glad to hear you've been liking them. Maybe I'll toss em in there this week. :)

[sderenatore]

Yes I actually emphasized consistency and the controllish side of the deck. I love control Combo, and I love much more this deck which is a mix with some aspects of aggro decks too (even though a weird aggro).
I understand your approach, even though I believe that a creature based combo always needs to find the right piece at the right moment, probably more than any other combo deck:
-creatures cannot be cast in the opponent's eot
-creatures can be removed/destroyed (with a fast list you rely on virtually less counters)

I have to admit i didn't pay attention at the average kill-turn but I think it's around turn 4 even with Drift and Raven Familiar.
By the way my list is close to its final form, I' ll post it here if you want to give it a try :wink:


3 Misthollow Griffin
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mulldrifter
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 AEthersnipe
1 Griselbrand
2 Drift of Phantasms
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Raven Familiar

4 Food Chain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce

4 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Ancient Tomb

I finally decided to remove the wall, due to the greater sinergy between (3x)Coiling Oracle and Ponder/Brainstorm (It's really easy to manage a double land drop, very useful when you have Spell Pierce or even Brainstorm). I reduced the number of Raven Familiar and Drift of Phantasms to two to make the deck smoother.

(I will try Intuition very soon!)

[rufus]

The department of bad ideas wants to point out that Manipulate Fate has potential synergy with Mirror of Fate. The simplest method would be to play 1x Laboratory Maniac and some number of Mirror of Fate -- though that is quite fragile.

[metamet]

The department of bad ideas wants to point out that Manipulate Fate has potential synergy with Mirror of Fate. The simplest method would be to play 1x Laboratory Maniac and some number of Mirror of Fate -- though that is quite fragile.


"The department of bad ideas"

Hahahaha. I love it. :) In all fairness, Manipulate Fate for Griffins could easily have come from that same department...

Although this combo seems a little slow for Legacy, definitely something I will be putting my blue EDH decks. You know, just to try. haha.

[metamet]

Yes I actually emphasized consistency and the controllish side of the deck. I love control Combo, and I love much more this deck which is a mix with some aspects of aggro decks too (even though a weird aggro).
I understand your approach, even though I believe that a creature based combo always needs to find the right piece at the right moment, probably more than any other combo deck:
-creatures cannot be cast in the opponent's eot
-creatures can be removed/destroyed (with a fast list you rely on virtually less counters)

I have to admit i didn't pay attention at the average kill-turn but I think it's around turn 4 even with Drift and Raven Familiar.
By the way my list is close to its final form, I' ll post it here if you want to give it a try :wink:


3 Misthollow Griffin
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mulldrifter
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 AEthersnipe
1 Griselbrand
2 Drift of Phantasms
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Raven Familiar

4 Food Chain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce

4 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Ancient Tomb

I finally decided to remove the wall, due to the greater sinergy between (3x)Coiling Oracle and Ponder/Brainstorm (It's really easy to manage a double land drop, very useful when you have Spell Pierce or even Brainstorm). I reduced the number of Raven Familiar and Drift of Phantasms to two to make the deck smoother.

(I will try Intuition very soon!)

So it seems that we've sort of discovered the heart of the deck, with a few cards that are tweakable.

Check out the thread in developing decks to see what others are doing as well: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23711-Food-Chain-Combo/page10

Perhaps I'll have to write up a primer on the deck soon, as it's becoming more and more popular. :) Which makes me happy.

[Shugyosha]

Very cool deck. I tested both lists and the Phantasms are pretty solid for me. They look really bad on paper but work out well and I didn't like Manipulate Fate at all. I kept the Walls in to get consistent mana acceleration.

I don't like Raven Familiar though. Jace in this slot gives the deck a better/more flexible way to win or get the combo pieces.

Fun deck to play with many little synergy effects.

[metamet]

Hey guys,

Just a quick update, I played this deck in SCG Minneapolis a week ago.

I had a feature match: http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-min-legacy-rd-3-tyler-tyssedal-vs-lenny-thao-6336418

And a deck tech: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_food_chain_with_tyle.html

Figured I'd wrap them up into this post for continuity's sake. :)

I ended up X-3ing, losing against UW Miracles in our last five turns, RUG Delver with two T1 flipped Delvers, and getting D&T'd by an active Jitte.

Overall, still enjoying the deck. I'd recommend giving it a whirl if you're looking for something new to play.

[Esper3k]

Hey guys,

Just a quick update, I played this deck in SCG Minneapolis a week ago.

I had a feature match: http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-min-legacy-rd-3-tyler-tyssedal-vs-lenny-thao-6336418

And a deck tech: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_food_chain_with_tyle.html

Figured I'd wrap them up into this post for continuity's sake. :)

I ended up X-3ing, losing against UW Miracles in our last five turns, RUG Delver with two T1 flipped Delvers, and getting D&T'd by an active Jitte.

Overall, still enjoying the deck. I'd recommend giving it a whirl if you're looking for something new to play.

Congrats on getting the deck tech! It's always cool to see someone getting some positive attention for a rogue deck they love and have been developing.