Is Infect playable in Legacy?

[slave]

Hi all,

Title says it all really, is Infect a strong enough tool for a deck to win Legacy reliably?

(I've been working on a deck with cheap infect creatures & pump like Vines of Vastwood, Blazing Shoal etc. but I'm reliably getting picked apart against many of the decks I'm testing against. Capable of a T2 win, but not reliable due to combo nature)
So is Infect playable?
And if so, is there a good example of an infect deck I could see?

Has Infect ever gotten Top8 in a tourny?

[MirrorMask]

Its not a very bad deck but its greatest liability is its very direct nature. You have to make creature attacks and creatures can be blocked, killed or countered. It is a huge weakness to have to base your deck's plan on one or two creatures with absolutely no protection. The only thing you can have is evasion:blighted agent, inkmoth nexus, plague stinger if you want to go with a 3 color plan. I haven't played the deck in a tourney but I have tested it against a couple of decks and did well. The most annoying thing are removals so if your meta isn't infested with them then maybe you can safely pick this deck.
Direct damage can be avoided as you pack too many buffing spells. Use the following and never look back : berserk, mutagenic growth, might of old krosa,invigorate . There is also a card, that I don't remember unfortunately, which gives your creature +1/+0 and unblockable and has rebound with 1 blue mana cost. It might be worth of testing. Also use for protection:

force of will
daze
spell pierce


NEVER, EVER play this deck with no counterspells unless you want to be open to endless ,main deck,hate
Here is my list (as i remember it):

Creatures(12)

4x blighted agent
4x Plague stinger
4x Glistener Elf

spells(30)

4x mutagenic growth
4x berserk
4x Might of old krosa
4x invigorate
4x force of will
4x daze
2x spell pierce
4x brainstorm
2x ponder

Lands(18)

2x underground sea
4x tropical island
1x breeding pool
3x inkmoth nexus
4x misty rainforest
4x verdant catacombs


If you don't have duals then just use shocklands. The life loss is minimal as you have a very fast clock.

[dunk]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Swords to Plowshares. Playing a combo deck that gets owned by a card that is usually bad against combo doesn't sound like a good plan.

[BWM]

Yes, it has been in the top8 at least twice in the netherlands on 30+ tournaments...



The deck is silly and has a lot of trouble against swords to plowshares, but in a metagame where it isn't expected, it can steal win after win.




I know I lost more matches to it than I dare to admit

[Justin]

I think Infect is "playble," as there are many playable stratgies in Legacy. It's just that there are many better options available. But I don't think that you should necessarily feel embarassed to bring an Infect deck to a Legacy tourney.

One thing that might help would be to run cards that allow you to see your opponent's hand, including targetted discard. This includes Thoughtseize if in black or at least Gitaxian Probe if not. If you know or suspect that your opponent has a spot removal spell and the mana to use it, you don't want to go "all in" with your pump. If your opponent is at zero poison counters, just pump your 1/1 guy once (even if you could do more) with Invigorate to make him a 5/5. Then your opponent has a choice of taking five poison counters or removing the creature now. Also, Vines of Vastwood can help a lot with the spot removal problem by giving your guys hexproof in addition to pump.

[Bignasty197]

A friend of mine used to play a BG variant of Infect that used discard effects like Thoughtseize and Hymn instead of counters to some success. Phyrexian Crusader hits the top of the curve and is difficult to remove for most decks. He actually had quite a few turn 2 or 3 kills.

[dsck]

The only version I have seen succesful is the U/G. Invigorate is awesome.

[slave]

Thanks for all the input everyone!

Yeah I thought Infect would be pretty tricky.

Thanks for listing a deck here MirrorMask :smile:
There are definitely some nice idea's in there, thanks for the ideas!
I love Invigorate, just has no drawback!
Mutagenic looks great too.
But what's with Berzerk? Feel's like a dead card unless I have another pump in hand.
Why play that over something like Vines of Vastwood? (or even Rancor)

I've considered popping in a singleton of Pendelhaven, Centaur Garden & maybe Novijen, Heart of Progress too, as ways to pump that are difficult to prevent.
If I come up against someone running Wastelands I could easily SB either.
When I first thought to try infect, someone over on another forum suggested Blazing Shoal, which together with a couple Teetering Peaks in the decks sounded plausible.
But now I'm not so sure due to all the Wasteland/instant removal that floats around in Legacy.

Okay, so I'm liking the look of UG for outright stomp-face.
What about Proliferate effects?
I remember a funky deck I played against once. This guy had a few Infect creatures and only got the one hit in, then Proliferated me to death.
Should I look at Proliferate as a way to finish someone off just in case I cannot get another hit in VS certain matchups?

[dsck]

Thanks for all the input everyone!

Yeah I thought Infect would be pretty tricky.

Thanks for listing a deck here MirrorMask :smile:
There are definitely some nice idea's in there, thanks for the ideas!
I love Invigorate, just has no drawback!
Mutagenic looks great too.
But what's with Berzerk? Feel's like a dead card unless I have another pump in hand.
Why play that over something like Vines of Vastwood? (or even Rancor)

I've considered popping in a singleton of Pendelhaven, & maybe Novijen, Heart of Progress too, as ways to pump that are difficult to prevent. If I come up against someone running Wastelands I could easily SB either.
When I first thought to try infect, someone over on another forum suggested Blazing Shoal, which together with a couple Teetering Peaks in the decks sounded plausible.
But now I'm not so sure due to all the Wasteland/instant removal that floats around in Legacy.

Okay, so I'm liking the look of UG for outright stomp-face.
What about Proliferate effects?
I remember a funky deck I played against once. This guy had a few Infect creatures and only got the one hit in, then Proliferated me to death.
Should I look at Proliferate as a way to finish someone off just in case I cannot get another hit in VS certain matchups?

Proliferate works in casual, not legacy.

-> decklists (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=Invigorate%3B+tropical+island&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on)

[Phoenix Ignition]

I think it could do well, it's not going to be tier 1 but it has its moments. Modern's big deck was Blazing Shoal + Progenitus(or the like) on a Inkmoth Nexus or a Blighted Agent before they banned shoal.

I have no good decklists made for it, but add a bunch of counterspells, cantrips, and the like and you're set.

[4eak]

I play a lot of Legacy Infect. The deck is far stronger than many people realize or would like to admit. The deck is also tier 3. It's insanely cheap for being playable, but it isn't a great deck in the majority of metagames.

It is difficult to be: consistent, fast, and resilient all at the same time. Usually people are sacrificing at least one of those attributes in the builds I've seen. For example, builds with low creature and low pump count (but highly combo-esque in nature usually) and permission can be fast and somewhat resilient to removal, but are very inconsistent, overextend, and are unable to trade or gut-it-out against opposing creatures decks in my experience. I find that when FoW is really that amazing, you are usually winning virtue of playing good blue cards, not in virtue playing Infect. Those are the times where I wish I was just playing a thresh deck with Goyf or other good stuff.

Blazing Shoal and Berserk are also just bad cards in my testing. They are very flashy and satisfying, but they are too conditional and require overextending. They are also the wrong direction for the deck, imho.

The list I've landed on:

// Mana Sources - 22
10 Forest
4 Pendelhaven
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal

// Infect Creatures - 16
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blight Mamba
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede

// Strictly Pump - 16
4 Prey's Vengeance
4 Giant Growth
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate

// Protection Pump - 6
2 Ranger's Guile
4 Vines of Vastwood

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ranger's Guile
SB: 2 Apostle's Blessing
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Dismember

Fairly consistent turn 3 deck. It strikes a balance between the attributes I mentioned before. I think squeezing the last 2 Ranger's Guile in the main may be worth doing.

I've run it against a fairly wide gauntlet, and it just isn't amazing. It does win games, a surprising number for the cost of the deck, but it is only an entry level deck. This is something I'd recommend to a person who doesn't want to play burn/sligh, and needs a ridiculously cheap deck.


peace,
4eak

[slave]

Proliferate works in casual, not legacy.

LOL, yeah I assumed so. The only "draw" I've been considering is some Gitaxian Probe to see how to play my hand.
I was just wondering if a couple Tezzeret's Gamble might be playable....


I play a lot of Legacy Infect. The deck is far stronger than many people realize or would like to admit. The deck is also tier 3. It's insanely cheap...

It is difficult to be: consistent, fast, and resilient all at the same time.
Blazing Shoal and Berserk are also just bad cards in my testing. They are very flashy and satisfying, but they are too conditional and require overextending. They are also the wrong direction for the deck, imho.

CHeers.
Price is one big thing that had me interested to be honest!!

My Blazing SHoal concept has all of these hang-ups. It does a great turn 2 kill, but it's so vulnerable to discard/extraction and counter that it's just not really playable.
Add to that, if it does get disrupted, I do a great CHarbelcher impression for the next four turns until I draw into something I can play...

Can I ask ya, how do find 4 Pendelhaven?
(I'm always nervous to play so many legendary lands of the same type)
And how do you get lots of wins without running blue?
Blighted Agent seems too good not to run.

[4eak]

Can I ask ya, how do find 4 Pendelhaven?
(I'm always nervous to play so many legendary lands of the same type)

I started with 2. I went to 3, and then to 4. 4 is definitely correct. It's amazing. You want to open one every single game, and sometimes you want two (Wasteland is a common card in the format). The benefits completely outweigh those rare times where the 2nd Pendelhaven is dead in hand.


And how do you get lots of wins without running blue?
I'm not sure what you are asking. I often win by playing a turn 1 creature (far more consistently than decks running only 12 creatures and no mana acceleration) and judiciously using my pump spells to win attrition wars on the ground and smash my opponent as early as possible.


Blighted Agent seems too good not to run.
It is an excellent card. You can certainly splash for it if you want. Blockers are much less of a problem for my build, enough so that unblockable isn't as crazy amazing as you would initially believe, although it is certainly nice. I basically use Pendelhaven or trade 1 pump for their 1 creature (or sometimes better with Prey's Vengeance), generally the attrition battle favors this deck. Zoo and certain builds of Goblins are the only creature decks sporting enough removal that this isn't the case.



peace,
4eak

[slave]

Blockers are much less of a problem for my build......attrition battle favors this deck. Zoo and certain builds of Goblins are the only creature decks sporting enough removal that this isn't the case.

Thanks for explaining.
I see what you mean, but I think I'll need blue for counter, or black for disruption just to prevent getting outright owned by combo decks though.
I think I'll go with Blighted AGent for my attempt, as any targetted removal is dead against it, so only SAC effects or Counter can prevent it connecting.
Considering Infect has no real defence to speak of, I don't like the idea of an attrition battle with all the aggro decks or combo-creature decks out there.

[AlmostGrown]

Why no Mutagenic Growth, 4eak? Too combo-y?

[Chikenbok]

I think its always important when considering the question, "Is deck X playable in Legacy", the answer is almost generally: well, if it can win a few games, and you enjoy playing it, then absolutely (perhaps even skipping the first part if its *really* fun).

Infect is a deck that has the surprise factor of randomly nabbing people with their pants down and blowing out decks that don't run enough removal to be efficient in board control but then, how many tier 1 decks are going to see a resolved infect creature on the field and allow it to live for a turn.

As 4eak said, the deck is fun and explosive (like so many decks that people play) but is, and will probably remain a tier 3 deck. But hell, if you're trying to break into the format, found a deck you can afford, and enjoy playing it -- I see no reason to not run it as hard as the RUG player next to you.

[slave]

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice here guys and gals, appreciate it!

SO I had a go and put together an Infect deck.
I'm after constructive criticism here, so please let me know what you would consider changing. I've borrowed a lot from advice here and elsewhere to get this initial list, and I've stayed away from cards like Burning Shoal & Hatred.

18 Lands;
4 Breeding Pool, 4 Misty Rainforest 2 Pendelhaven, 3 Inkmoth Nexus, 1 Verdant Catacombs, 2 Forest & 2 Island.
12 Creatures;
4 Glistener Elf, 4 Necropede, 4 Blighted Agent
13 Protection;
2 Spell Pierce, 4 Daze, 3 Pact of Negation, 4 Gitaxian Probe
15 Pump;
4 Invigorate, 4 Mutagenic Growth, 2 Might of Old Krosa, 2 Ranger's Guile, 3 Vines of Vastwood

......and a pair of Tezzeret's Gambit.
Yes, it's a crap card for a quick win, but so far it's won me a couple games by getting that last counter against players running lots of creatures or lots of sac effects.
I may swap this for something else, like maybe Cunning Wish for SB funzies with things like Pact of Negation, Echoing Truth, Surgical Extraction, Krosan Grip etc.
My other thought was Noxious Revival, in order to get my best card again. It would also be a nice way to hinder GY shenanigan's for my opponent too.
The other thought was a constant pump, like Shuko, Bone Saw, Blade of the Bloodchief, Adventuring Gear or some other very cheap to cast equipment.
Thoughts?

This is a cheap-ish build, so no Force of Will or Tropical Island's as yet.
Gitaxian Probe has been great in testing so far making my first turn much more reliable, and gives me the GO-or-Whoa against the decks I need to be careful with.
I'm still not sure of some of the choices, like Might of Old Krosa or Prey's Vengeance for example.

What dýa all think?

[4eak]

Moved the thread to N&D, where I believe the conversation is better suited. We're now constructing a deck at this point.

-4eak

[evanmartyr]

The basic UG list (every card you'd expect) is great, but has anyone considered a port of the now-banned infect list from Modern? Tutors and Blazing Shoal and Progenitus/Reaper King? Any deck that nearly single-handedly put multiple cards on the banned list to the format closest to Legacy seems like it could benefit from those cards NOT being banned, as well as an enlarged card-pool?

[Johanovich]

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice here guys and gals, appreciate it!

SO I had a go and put together an Infect deck.
I'm after constructive criticism here, so please let me know what you would consider changing. I've borrowed a lot from advice here and elsewhere to get this initial list, and I've stayed away from cards like Burning Shoal & Hatred.

18 Lands;
4 Breeding Pool, 4 Misty Rainforest 2 Pendelhaven, 3 Inkmoth Nexus, 1 Verdant Catacombs, 2 Forest & 2 Island.
12 Creatures;
4 Glistener Elf, 4 Necropede, 4 Blighted Agent
13 Protection;
2 Spell Pierce, 4 Daze, 3 Pact of Negation, 4 Gitaxian Probe
15 Pump;
4 Invigorate, 4 Mutagenic Growth, 2 Might of Old Krosa, 2 Ranger's Guile, 3 Vines of Vastwood

......and a pair of Tezzeret's Gambit.
Yes, it's a crap card for a quick win, but so far it's won me a couple games by getting that last counter against players running lots of creatures or lots of sac effects.
I may swap this for something else, like maybe Cunning Wish for SB funzies with things like Pact of Negation, Echoing Truth, Surgical Extraction, Krosan Grip etc.
My other thought was Noxious Revival, in order to get my best card again. It would also be a nice way to hinder GY shenanigan's for my opponent too.
The other thought was a constant pump, like Shuko, Bone Saw, Blade of the Bloodchief, Adventuring Gear or some other very cheap to cast equipment.
Thoughts?

This is a cheap-ish build, so no Force of Will or Tropical Island's as yet.
Gitaxian Probe has been great in testing so far making my first turn much more reliable, and gives me the GO-or-Whoa against the decks I need to be careful with.
I'm still not sure of some of the choices, like Might of Old Krosa or Prey's Vengeance for example.

What dýa all think?

I would play ichorclaw myr instead of necropede simply for his auto-pump ability when he is blocked. Also I'd put in 4 rancor for the boost and trample plus it is reusable if your critter gets killed.

I also play 2 vines of vastwood for protection when you attack.

my 2 cents...

[slave]

The basic UG list (every card you'd expect) is great, but has anyone considered a port of the now-banned infect list from Modern? Tutors and Blazing Shoal and Progenitus/Reaper King? Any deck that nearly single-handedly put multiple cards on the banned list to the format closest to Legacy seems like it could benefit from those cards NOT being banned, as well as an enlarged card-pool?

Hatred, & then Blazing Shoal brought me to look hard at Infect in truth.

Whilst Inkmoth Nexus and a few myr/necropede work well for this, you'd need a splash to get the deck working quickly. Blazing Shoal is pure combo, and I struggled to make it work reliably (on a tight budget admittedly) even though sometimes it powered out T2 kills.
I believe there is definitely a great deck in Blazing Shoal just waiting, but with cards like Swords to Plowshares & Innocent Blood, it gonna be tricky.

[tonedown]

There was an UG Infect played to some success in our meta a while back. I don't have a decklist per se, but the gist of it was:

Glistener Elf
Inkmoth Nexus
Blighted Agent
Noble Hierarch

Invigorate
Berserk
Som other pump spells (I think it was Might of Old Krosa)


Daze
FoW
Spell Pierce


edit: Entire deck can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21232-U-G-infect/page3&highlight=R%E5de

[slave]

There was an UG Infect played to some success in our meta a while back. I don't have a decklist per se, but the gist of it was:

edit: Entire deck can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21232-U-G-infect/page3&highlight=R%E5de

Cheers for the link - nice read.
After a bit more time with the deck, I now get why Berserk is such a good card.
Might of Old Krosa isn't what I'd hoped, neither is Ground Swell. Both of them are situational, and if your opponent is packing the right type of removal, even Blighted Agent isn't going to connect.
Has anyone tried playing Unstable Mutation?
I think it's playable, even if it is sorcery speed, as it'll have a *smaller* pump still present on your next turn if the creature (and your opponent) survives.
It means a single red removal spell like lightning Bolt will have to wait until next turn, whereas some of the Green pump, like Berserk or Rancor, offers no protection from red targetted removal or small sweepers like Pyroclasm.
.....And it's dirt cheap. :)

On another note, running 18 to 19 lands has quite often got me a killer first turn hand, but just as often I get mana screwed, stuck on one land or mulliganning down to 4 cards just to get a single land.
Gitaxian Probe, whilst not optimal for this deck, definitely helps here to find another one on first turn, but I'm wondering what else might help to make the deck more consistent?
Noble Hierach is an awesome choice, but I'm wondering if we have other more budget options?
Search for Tomorrow, One with Nature, Caravan Vigil all seem a bit slow or too conditional for a deck that wants to kill on turn two, whereas Lay of the Land doesn't allow us to get more than two mana for turn two, which of course Noble Heirach does. Any ideas peeps?

[thefringthing]

Turn Aside is an idea for improving resilience against creature removal.

[phazonmutant]

A guy at my local store played what he called "Herpes" for a while. Blazing Shoal combo infect. The last list I saw was something like this:
// Maindeck
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize

4 Blazing Shoal
4 Progenitus
3 Show and Tell
4 Blighted Agent
3 Pithing Needle (or Stifle)

4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island

// Sideboard
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
3 Moment's Peace
1 Show and Tell

I know he's played a different version with 4 Crop Rotation in place of 1 Blighted Agent and 3 Needles, and Blasphemous Act is a solid card to consider for Blazing Shoal. That list was pretty old, but hopefully it gives you some ideas where to take the deck in a more "one-big-turn" combo version. If you're playing the Beserk / Rancor / Vines version, I'm pretty sure Blazing Shoal is not good.

[slave]

A guy at my local store played what he called "Herpes" for a while. Blazing Shoal combo infect. The last list I saw was something like this:
.......If you're playing the Beserk / Rancor / Vines version, I'm pretty sure Blazing Shoal is not good.

Cheers for that.
So how did he play Blazing Shoal reliably? Is there something I'm missing?
I understand the Show n Tell bit, but where does the two red mana come from consistently?

Also, I did look at Turn Aside, but I'm concerned that it's a dead card against Combo most of the time = doesn't help to protect from T1/T2 charbelcher-like decks at all.
I'll probably go with a few Pacts of Negation, few Spell Pierce and 4 Daze.

[phazonmutant]

Cheers for that.
So how did he play Blazing Shoal reliably? Is there something I'm missing?

If you pitch a red card to Blazing Shoal, X is the exiled card's CMC and you cast Blazing Shoal for free, no red mana required.

[dsck]

Cheers for that.
So how did he play Blazing Shoal reliably?


You always pitch progenitus to play it for free.

[slave]

(reads card again)
Duh!
I really need to do that more often ha ha.

Back to that decklist - that seems pretty nice!

[phazonmutant]

Yeah, he thought it was a lot of fun, but after taking it to a bunch of tournaments, decided it's just not as good as other combo decks. The things that everyone's mentioned already - Wasteland, StP, consistency problems, etc...

[slave]

Yeah, he thought it was a lot of fun, but after taking it to a bunch of tournaments, decided it's just not as good as other combo decks. The things that everyone's mentioned already - Wasteland, StP, consistency problems, etc...

Yeah, I guess if you're playing Show and Tell, you'd want more than just four targets eh?

[slave]

Okay, so I've done a bit of homework and looked up a whole lot of legacy/vintage decks that work on infect and tried making my own aswell.
Seems there's lots of different ways to do it!
Pretty much all are capable of winning before T5, however some can be very explosive.
Blazing Shoal makes an appearance in many, but it only seems absolutely necessary in mono-blue, and Blue/Black to me, please correct me if you think otherwise.

Mono-Blue seems to need at least 10 counters or more due to lack of removal, a lot of deck filtering and focusses on the B'Shoal combo to win.
It's a three card combo, so it's pretty susceptible to disruption/extraction & creature removal, but has lots of protection and can pump out a T2/T3 win with effective mulligans.

Blue/Green goes stompy.
Fairly resilient, fairly quick wins can be nailed, has decent protection and seems a pretty good way to go. T2 wins gettable, but more likely later.

Mono-Green Stompy.
This one surprised me!
Surprisingly resilient, due to sheer number of cards that perform the same function, so disruption/extraction doesn't seem to hurt it as much as the others mentioned here.
It relies on brute force and a favourable match-up to get the hits through.
AGainst heavy disruption/counter it can still win unlike some of the other lists, however lack of counter means it's always gonna be vulnerable to fast decks or decks that deny it keeping creatures in play.
Because of this it seems to me to get it's kills a little slower than the others decks here.

Green-Black.
This deck seems quite capable of going stompy or combo (with B'Shoal), but I'm not sure you'd have enough space to make both tactics work in the same deck, and I think stompy would be the way to go.
Running lots of pump, and plenty of disruption and targetted removal/sacrifice, it has a great chance to get the hits through, however if you run combo it's gonna be difficult to protect against a good blue player running heavy counter.

Black-Blue Combo
Suffers the same problems as Mono-blue, being a heavy reliance on Blazing Shoal to win, however blue does have sorcery speed pump spell in Unstable Mutation, but I'm not sure it's worth an inclusion.
I've tried the list with only evasive creatures, plenty of counter, a little disruption/extraction and tools to find the pieces to get the combo working quickly. Having access to cheap removal and counter makes the combo resilient, but it is still essentially a 3-card combo to get the lethal hit in.


Now after a fair bit of playing around, my lists are pretty basic - not nearly optimised as yet - but I'm trying to decide which way is optimal before I spend a huge amount of time ironing out a list.
And I'm curious - of the ones listed above, I'm favouring two over all others, but I'd like to know what all of you think are the one or two worth persuing?
Thoughts?

[slave]

Anyone?

Well...in danger of talking to myself;
I'm gonna go ahead with Mono-Blue Combo, abusing Blazing Shoal.

From what I can see it's able to win T2 possibly, but usually T3 to 5.
I'm looking at adapting the deck designed by John Stolzmann, made for Modern.

But I'm torn between going for a simple decklist running Ponder, Brainstorm, Peer Through Depths, like this;

1x Progenitus
4x Blighted Agent
//Land
3x Tolaria West
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Inkmoth Nexus
7x Island
1x Mountain
//Spells
4x Muddle the Mixture
3x Peer Through Depths
4x Blazing Shoal
1x Snapback
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Pact of Negation
1x Summoner's Pact
4x Ponder
4x Spell Pierce
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Blasphemous Act

What d'ya think? Any changes I should make? Do I have enough creatures to survive in Legacy?

Or should I try something else, like using Cunning Wish?
And a host of spells that could be useful in the SB, like Echoing Truth, Ensnare, Surgical Extraction, Hurkyll's Recall, Submerge, and 1/4 Blazing Shoal etc etc.
I've tried both ways;
In testing, I've found both decks to be fairly similar in avg. turn I can swing for lethal damage. The difference is when I play against certain decks - then Cunning comes in handy, but being a 3cmc spell, I'm often casting it without any untapped islands.... not exactly my play of choice. I'm really not sure about it....
Is Cunning Wish a waste of time?

Thoughts?

[Johanovich]

Anyone?

Well...in danger of talking to myself;
I'm gonna go ahead with Mono-Blue Combo, abusing Blazing Shoal.

From what I can see it's able to win T2 possibly, but usually T3 to 5.
I'm looking at adapting the deck designed by John Stolzmann, made for Modern.

But I'm torn between going for a simple decklist running Ponder, Brainstorm, Peer Through Depths, like this;

1x Progenitus
4x Blighted Agent
//Land
3x Tolaria West
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Inkmoth Nexus
7x Island
1x Mountain
//Spells
4x Muddle the Mixture
3x Peer Through Depths
4x Blazing Shoal
1x Snapback
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Pact of Negation
1x Summoner's Pact
4x Ponder
4x Spell Pierce
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Blasphemous Act

What d'ya think? Any changes I should make? Do I have enough creatures to survive in Legacy?

Or should I try something else, like using Cunning Wish?
And a host of spells that could be useful in the SB, like Echoing Truth, Ensnare, Surgical Extraction, Hurkyll's Recall, Submerge, and 1/4 Blazing Shoal etc etc.
I've tried both ways;
In testing, I've found both decks to be fairly similar in avg. turn I can swing for lethal damage. The difference is when I play against certain decks - then Cunning comes in handy, but being a 3cmc spell, I'm often casting it without any untapped islands.... not exactly my play of choice. I'm really not sure about it....
Is Cunning Wish a waste of time?

Thoughts?

I think that 8 creatures might be a bit low, but then again I never played infect combo...

I'd probably add a few ichorclaw myr and some bounce. If you played against something like affinity that plays a lot of flyers and you can't find your agent then you're just sitting there. You have 3 tutors for inkmoth nexus and only 1 for agent.

[slave]

I think that 8 creatures might be a bit low, but then again I never played infect combo...

I'd probably add a few ichorclaw myr and some bounce. If you played against something like affinity that plays a lot of flyers and you can't find your agent then you're just sitting there. You have 3 tutors for inkmoth nexus and only 1 for agent.

Yeah I think you're right.
So far my testing has been fairly limited to certain opponents, I haven't tried it against Affinity. (Tolaria West is mainly there to grab any of the 0-cost cards - mainly Progenitus via Summoner's Pact)

The more testing I do with this deck, the more I'm finding how fragile it is.
In legacy, there are sooooo many ways to disrupt a 3-card combo, and one that packs a creature as part of that combo is...well....shithouse.
Yes, this deck can get a turn two win, but not against any decent deck with lots of removal/counter and extraction is just an auto-scoop if they target the right card.

This deck originally was from Modern, I haven't really changed much other than Peer through Depths > Impulse, Preordain > Brainstorm, Dragonstorm > Blasphemous Act and a few minor things.
But Modern doesn't have much in the way of kick-arse flying defence.
In all honesty, given the Legacy environment, I'm starting to think U/G or mono-G might be the only way to make Infect work reliably..
(sigh)
4eak did say that mono-green was his preferred choice, and now I'm gettin' why!!

[lochlan]

I'm starting to think U/G or mono-G might be the only way to make Infect work reliably..

As far as I know UG is the only build to ever have good results. I've piloted both mono G and UG lists and, unsurprisingly, the cantrips in the UG version make your deck more consistent. Theoretically filling your cantrip slots up with more business would give you the same result, but my testing has shown that to never be the case.

And while both decks are fragile, UG has Daze, which is just plain better than Autumn's Veil or whatever. Infect needs all the tempo it can get.

There are a few other threads about infect in this very forum, you may want to peruse them for inspiration.

[evanmartyr]

Well, because your creature base is so small, and your *effective* pump spell base is so small, filling the cantrip slots with less-effective versions just leaves you with crummier spells and makes the 1+1+1=10 poison harder to pull off.

I was wondering, though, whether the UG version couldn't splash black simply for Plague Stinger. Seems like replacing something non-evasive and non-Glistener Elf might be worth a slight manabase instability.

[slave]

Well, because your creature base is so small, and your *effective* pump spell base is so small, filling the cantrip slots with less-effective versions just leaves you with crummier spells and makes the 1+1+1=10 poison harder to pull off.

I was wondering, though, whether the UG version couldn't splash black simply for Plague Stinger. Seems like replacing something non-evasive and non-Glistener Elf might be worth a slight manabase instability.

Filling the cantrip slots with less effective versions? Could you tell me which ones you mean, and what alternatives you would suggest?

I did look at the UB version running plague stinger, blighted agent & Inkmoth nexus. The main reason I wanted mono-blue to work so bad is because I already have most of the cards! :wink: Splashing black and including some disruption like Extirpate would defnitely make the deck stronger, but would also increase the cost just for the landbase, and in the end the UB version is still a three card combo.

UGb, like you're saying - I'm not sure cutting Glistener Elf is what I would be doing....if anything the Elf is untouchale if you're running G, I'd just want to find a way to make Elf, Stinger & Agent work in the same deck if possible.

[Stomping Grounds G&H]

Anyone see GerryT's dream halls shoal infect deck? It looks pretty good.

[Fenrus]

I'm a fan of mono green. A friend of mine used to run it in my area. Inkmoth + Glistener Elf + Ichorclaw myr + Pump spells + Berserks + Wastelands. Simple and kind of effective. I'd write out the list as best as I can remember but I have to depart for work. Will try to ask him about it and update later tonight.

UPDATE: I was wrong. He was playing UG. I remembered the mental missteps, forgot about all the other blue cards. I like it and think it would be easy to update...

5 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Island
4 Mist Rainforest
4 Tropical Island

4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf

4 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Groundswell
4 Invigorate
4 Mental Misstep
4 Might of Old Krosa


The mental misstep format was a whole different beast then we have today. Could be fun if you have the cards lying around.

[Abantau]

what I'm brewing right now is a modern-based legacy deck with a 3 ingredient combo: blazing shoal, 9cc or 10cc red spell and an infect creature.

Mono-Blue Infected Shoal

Mainboard
4 blighted agent
4 spellskite
1 progenitus

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 spell pierce
2 intuition
2 muddle the mixture
3 peer through depths
3 ponder
1 show and tell
1 pact of negation
1 summoner's pact
4 blazing shoal
1 searing wind
2 blasphemous act
1 dragonstorm

4 inkmoth nexus
4 misty rainforest
4 scalding tarn
1 tolarian west
6 island

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stifle
2 Chill
2 Dismember
2 Flusterstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe away


It can land a turn 2-3 kill if you have the nuts and having counters for back-ups.

[trollking21]

4th place infect at SCG

Creatures (12)

4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch

Lands (21)

1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Pendelhaven

Spells (28)

1 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
2 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
1 Might of Old Krosa
1 Nature's Claim
1 Spell Pierce
1 Stifle
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder

Sideboard
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Necropede
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Sylvan Library
1 Berserk
1 Dismember
1 Dispel
1 Misdirection
3 Nature's Claim
1 Submerge
1 Swan Song
1 Bojuka Bog


so apperently infect can win! taking this as a starting point do you guys have any suggestions to make it better? I'm looking at proxying it up

[Etched]

4th place infect at SCG

Creatures (12)

4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch

Lands (21)

1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Pendelhaven

Spells (28)

1 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
2 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
1 Might of Old Krosa
1 Nature's Claim
1 Spell Pierce
1 Stifle
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder

Sideboard
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Necropede
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Sylvan Library
1 Berserk
1 Dismember
1 Dispel
1 Misdirection
3 Nature's Claim
1 Submerge
1 Swan Song
1 Bojuka Bog


so apperently infect can win! taking this as a starting point do you guys have any suggestions to make it better? I'm looking at proxying it up

No expert on Infect, but I'd go down a Pendelhaven or two.

[Qweerios]

Pendelhaven in Infect is like Gaea's Cradle in Elves... You want one every game.

[Zupponn]

I played against a similar list on MODO a while ago. It has a tempo feel to it with the ability to quickly finish an opponent off from any poisen count. There's some good potential there.

[Etched]

Pendelhaven in Infect is like Gaea's Cradle in Elves... You want one every game.

Yet I would think 3 is too much. 2 seems good, but again, I'm no expert on Infect.