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Hopo
08-03-2012, 08:41 AM
I have a Vault and all the non-workshop, non-bazaar, non-power, non-drain cards. Can something come out of it or am I forced to play Null Rod for eternity if I want to compete against power?

I don't pay too much attention to the format nowadays due to lack of events, but I'd like to build a deck to bring with me whenever something pops up.

Esper3k
08-03-2012, 08:47 AM
I think fish decks also tend to play the 1W Null Rod enchantment now, but yeah if you're not playing Power and you're not playing Bazaar, I think you're stuck with some sort of Null Rod deck.

ErtaiAdept
08-03-2012, 08:48 AM
While a non-powered deck may struggle in a competitive meta game it is not impossible to create a viable list.

My initial inclination is to go with some sort of mono-black hate deck with confidants. Since you're running a single color you don't really need the moxes to mana fix, and black as a color give you access to some other mana acceleration in the form of dark ritual and access to some of the better tutors (demonic, vampiric, etc...) Since you're not running blue you're going to need to rely on discard for your disruption, so cards like thoughtsieze, duress, and hymn to tourach should be considered. Then add in some other useful cards like surgical extraction, extirpate etc....

Don't get me wrong there are probably many more un-powered decks out there that you could play this is just a quick 5 minute brainstorm on my part. Ultimately your choices are really going to be dependent on what decks are in your meta-game.

socialite
08-03-2012, 08:56 AM
Check out this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17522_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_Hottest_Deck_in_Vintage_GWB_Beatdown_and_Other_Vintage_Notes.html), about half way through the writer touches on G/W/b beats which can be tweaked to be very competitive in any meta (some of the cards choices are outdated but the changes are pretty obvious i.e. Null Rod -> Stony Silence). The same writer wrote a few articles on G/W so take a look through the SCG archives. If you feel inclined to do some additional research check out "White Trash" lists, it's essentially White Weenie and actually quite good.

Esper3k
08-03-2012, 09:09 AM
Chalice @ 0 on the play when you're not playing power is also pretty hilarious.

(nameless one)
08-03-2012, 09:11 AM
I'm thinking of a Thalia-based Stony Silence deck. White hate bears in a format with minimal creature hate? Not so bad, just don't let that Oath of Druids touch the field.

Esper3k
08-03-2012, 09:28 AM
Sadistic Sacrament is pretty hilarious against a lot of Vintage decks.

"Exile your Time Vault, Blightsteel Colossus, and a Jace."

door
08-03-2012, 09:31 AM
I adopted fairie stompy to play vintage at BoM and went reasonable 5-4. I think I would have a better result if it was not my very first vintage experience. 8 times playing against power decks and 1 time against dredge.

Esper3k
08-03-2012, 09:33 AM
Yeah, in Vintage you need like 8 board cards against graveyards just for Dredge.

Arianrhod
08-03-2012, 09:38 AM
I feel like you should be able to....probably using some sort of Tezzeret shell. The problem is that that shell gets much better as you add power and Drains. I'd probably look into like a Chalice Tezzeret as a brewing option....probably would look something like Legacy Thopters, but substantially more broken and with big Tezz instead of little Tezz. You still have access to Ring, Vault, Crypt, and some other more questionable fast mana....I think it's definitely possible. But you're going to be leaning on Chalice of the Void an awful lot.

socialite
08-03-2012, 09:53 AM
If you want to do well without power cards your best bet is to run an aggro shell that is designed to exploit common development and control strategies used in powered lists while simultaneously being able to stand toe to toe with other aggro decks. This especially holds true in Europe where there is a large disparity between the number of powered and unpowered lists at any given event.

Basing a list around Time Vault, lacking the support cards used in a traditional control shell is going to run horribly.

These are the cards I would be looking at instead of trying to ram Chalice of the Void into a Tezzeret list. I'd also like to point out that Tezzeret the Seeker is no longer played in large quantities because he bites it to pretty much everything.

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Aven Mindcensor
Relic Warder
Stony Silence
Qasali Pridemage
Scavenging Ooze
Dark Confidant
Swords to Plowshares
Grafdigger's Cage
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Cavern of Souls
etc...


Yeah, in Vintage you need like 8 board cards against graveyards just for Dredge.
Also this is a misconception.

While the key to beating Dredge is being prepared and having an adequate sideboard, I'd argue the most important thing to take to heart regarding the match is to be constantly aware of what flavor of the month anti hate Dredge players are on. Their sideboard is entirely based upon what the meta runs for hate. If people are on Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage run Yixlid Jailers, stay one step ahead and you will do well. One does not need a large quantity of cards for the Dredge match, just the correct ones.

An important note about deck building - many times you can gain some ground against Dredge game one and save some sideboard space by moving cards that are relevant across matches into the main deck, i.e. Nihil Spellbomb. Spellbomb cycles and is no slouch against control and combo lists.

FWIW I've been running a package of Ravenous Trap, Yixlid Jailer (3), Nihil Spellbomb, and Grafdigger's Cage. That is six cards three of which are relevant against other archetypes.

Arianrhod
08-03-2012, 11:05 AM
I agree that it probably won't be that great, E_F -- however, if he wants to try to use his Time Vault, then I think that some sort of Chalice-Tezz is the best possibility. Not the best possibility for an unpowered deck, at all.

Also for Dredge, try to make sure you have a hand that does something. If your hand either can't unload some dredge hate or go broken, ship it.

aahz
08-03-2012, 11:08 AM
While the key to beating Dredge is being prepared and having an adequate sideboard, I'd argue the most important thing to take to heart regarding the match is to be constantly aware of what flavor of the month anti hate Dredge players are on. Their sideboard is entirely based upon what the meta runs for hate. If people are on Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage run Yixlid Jailers, stay one step ahead and you will do well. One does not need a large quantity of cards for the Dredge match, just the correct ones.

An important note about deck building - many times you can gain some ground against Dredge game one and save some sideboard space by moving cards that are relevant across matches into the main deck, i.e. Nihil Spellbomb. Spellbomb cycles and is no slouch against control and combo lists.

FWIW I've been running a package of Ravenous Trap, Yixlid Jailer (3), Nihil Spellbomb, and Grafdigger's Cage. That is six cards three of which are relevant against other archetypes.
This is all true. I usually run a Nihil Spellbomb + Surgical Extraction (alongside Snapcasters) main, which gives you a chance game 1. The varied hate plan is also usually the best (and I say this as an occasional Dredge pilot) because you keep them guessing and their answers to your hate may be the wrong ones. I would only add that another critical aspect of beating Dredge is to understand how the deck functions. Playing a bunch of graveyard hate as a substitute for knowing the interactions and nuances of the deck doesn't work well. I know a lot of people hate Dredge, but I highly recommend goldfishing/playtesting as the Dredge pilot even if you never intend to actually play with the deck in a tournament.

Back to the thread topic: Another option alluded to earlier (Sadistic Sacrament) is Dark Times, which only runs Lotus, Jet, and Imperial Seal and can still be explosive without power (Dark Ritual!). It is basically a Vampire Hexmage/Dark Depths deck with tons of disruption. The older versions also ran Helm-line, but that seems to have fallen out of favor (but works well if you're gunning to beat Dredge since maindeck Leyline of Void can steal plenty of game 1s).

socialite
08-03-2012, 11:09 AM
I agree that it probably won't be that great, E_F -- however, if he wants to try to use his Time Vault, then I think that some sort of Chalice-Tezz is the best possibility. Not the best possibility for an unpowered deck, at all.

Also for Dredge, try to make sure you have a hand that does something. If your hand either can't unload some dredge hate or go broken, ship it.

Fair enough, I was thinking along the lines of competitive events. If it's for casual purposes Agent of Bolas works pretty well with Chalice of the Void and TimeKey.

ween
08-03-2012, 06:45 PM
I was looking at getting into something like this:

4 Tombstalker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tombstalker)

4 Pox (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pox)
4 Smallpox (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Smallpox)
4 Sinkhole (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sinkhole)

4 Hymn to Tourach (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Hymn to Tourach)
4 Duress (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Duress)
1 Thoughtseize (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thoughtseize)
1 Mind Twist (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mind Twist)

1 Demonic Tutor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Demonic Tutor)
1 Vampiric Tutor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vampiric Tutor)
1 Demonic Consultation (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Demonic Consultation)
4 Dark Ritual (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark Ritual)
1 Diabolic Edict (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Diabolic Edict)
3 Crucible of Worlds (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Crucible of Worlds)

4 Mishra's Factory (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra's Factory)
1 Strip Mine (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Strip Mine)
4 Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland)
10 Swamp (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swamp)
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth)

I found it here: Norwegian Vintage Nationals 2009 (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38001.0)

It notes that the field was all un-powered, so i'm not sure how that impacts whether or not this list would work in a field with power at all.

Also since i never got to play with it, and it looks like awesome fun (or a terrible idea), i'd want to include a Necropotence (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Necropotence)

manugl84
08-04-2012, 01:02 PM
Iīve been running this for a while and been quite happy with the results:

4 Savannah
4 Horizon Canoppy
4 Ravorverge Ticket
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Stripmine

4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Stony Silence
3 Grafdiggerīs Cage
1 lotus petal

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Kataki, War's wage
2 Leonin-Relic Warden

Sideboard
1 Kataki, War's wage
1 Stony Silence
1 Grafdiggerīs Cage
2 tormodīs crypt
3 Path to Exile
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Nature's Claim

My little experience is like 8-10 games vs intuitive tendrils and 2 games vs MUD, and I have only lost 2 games, all of them pre-board (I always carry the deck with me in the case there is someone with a vintage deck bacause we almot always play legacy)

yankeedave
08-05-2012, 03:20 PM
I am a big fan of Null Rod Oath, usually with Emrakul and BSC. I played unpowered Double Dragon Oath at the Vintage side event of GP Madrid (170+ players) and did reasonably well. You have a great matchup against the other Null Rod/Stony Silence decks, as they are trying to slow your artifacts down, and you can pack more lands against MUD, since you have to make the Moxen up with land. I would play it again if I needed to!

manugl84
08-06-2012, 04:39 AM
I am a big fan of Null Rod Oath, usually with Emrakul and BSC. I played unpowered Double Dragon Oath at the Vintage side event of GP Madrid (170+ players) and did reasonably well. You have a great matchup against the other Null Rod/Stony Silence decks, as they are trying to slow your artifacts down, and you can pack more lands against MUD, since you have to make the Moxen up with land. I would play it again if I needed to!

Care to share your list plz?:wink:

yankeedave
08-06-2012, 07:11 AM
Care to share your list plz?:wink:

Actually, thinking about the OP, I would run Chalice of the Void instead of Null Rod, if you want to play Vault/Key, with a mana denial package. Maybe something like this, which I would consider semi-budget, as it contains things like Mana Crypt and Jace (warning, this is of the top of my head and untested in the current meta):

4 Oath of Druids
1 Blightsteel Collosus
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dragon's Breath
2 Show and Tell

1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Beast Within
1 Noxious Revival

4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Channel

1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
13 Other Correctly Coloured Lands

I haven't included Tinker, as this list doesn't run enough Artifacts to support it. Since this list is hurt by Chalice at 2, I have included the Show and Tells to help circumvent this. I am also unsure of the Yawg's Win, as it again lacks the ability to abuse it with Time Walk, Moxen etc. Possibly this should be another hate spell, possibly a Nature's Claim.

Hopo
08-06-2012, 08:48 AM
I think you could actually play with Rods and Vault as long as there's a Tinker in the deck as well. I wouldn't mind switching the Rod for a combo piece in later game. Of course there's the issue with what to do with your three other Rods then. It's a shame the format supports only a single Brainstorm.

yankeedave
08-06-2012, 09:46 AM
Yes and sometimes, you draw your combo pieces, but no way to get rid of your Null Rod. Then it's just painful and mildly embarassing, having the win in hand and losing to your own hate!

.Ix
08-06-2012, 01:13 PM
Check this out: http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1111&highlight=2#place2

He's a friend who's been playing Oath for a long time. The list is obviously quite old, and once updated it should probably contain Jace, Missteps, Flusterstorms, and better Oath monsters. He's since gone on to the full set of power and changed the deck. One thing he misses about Chrome Mox, though, is that it can actually be used to set up huge Balance plays.

Urza33
08-08-2012, 01:39 AM
Dredge is probably the most inherently powerful deck that not only does not run power, but actually punishes the opponent for playing it.

Ingot Chewers, Nature's Claim, etc. They all punish you for being artifact heavy, not to mention the potential turn 2 dredge kill.

aahz
08-08-2012, 03:32 AM
Dredge is probably the most inherently powerful deck that not only does not run power, but actually punishes the opponent for playing it.

Ingot Chewers, Nature's Claim, etc. They all punish you for being artifact heavy, not to mention the potential turn 2 dredge kill.
While what you're saying is correct, we're getting to the point where Bazaars need to be considered "Power". For example, did Erik Hegemann really need the extra prize for being the highest placing "unpowered" deck at BOM in addition to the complete set of Power 9 he got for winning the whole event? No offense meant to Erik (he's clearly a very good player and it's awesome that he's here posting in the dredge thread), but I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Dredge with 4xBazaar isn't really "unpowered" except in a backwards, historical sense. Not to mention the fact that Bazaars cost more now than the Power 9 did when they were originally bestowed the title of "Power".

boney
08-08-2012, 07:05 PM
You can play a shopless aggro style deck with key vault in it. I have played this deck with success in powered metagames. You can also add gamble as a tutor for key/vault which works well with the welders

Creature [21]
4 Goblin Welder
4 Juggernaut
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Lodestone Golem

Artifact [19]
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Time Vault
3 Voltiac Key
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
Land [20]
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
60 cards

Koby
08-08-2012, 07:06 PM
You can play a shopless aggro style deck with key vault in it. I have played this deck with success in powered metagames. You can also add gamble as a tutor for key/vault which works well with the welders

Creature [21]
4 Goblin Welder
4 Juggernaut
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Lodestone Golem

Artifact [19]
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Time Vault
3 Voltiac Key
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
Land [20]
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
60 cards

I really like this approach. You could easily run Gorilla Shaman to have a ton of game against Powered decks too. Mox Monkey + Welder is quite effective at dispatching artifact decks.

Bill Copes
08-09-2012, 09:41 AM
I'm pulling a list out of the woodwork, circa 4 years ago, but I think it may be an interesting approach:

Salem 20.07.2008
- 22 players
2. Jeff Carpenter

Maindeck (60):
Spells (44):
1 Avarice Totem
3 Basalt Monolith
1 Black Lotus
3 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Mana Crypt
1 Memory Jar
4 Metalworker
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Rings of the Brighthearth
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
4 Staff of Domination
2 Thrumming Stone
3 Time Vault
1 Trinisphere
1 Triskelavus
4 Umbral Mantle
1 Tinker

Lands (16):
2 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Workshop
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolarian Academy



Potentially Transforms to:

4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
3 Mox Opal

2 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolarian Academy

4 Metalworker
3 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Memory Jar
3 Voltaic Key
4 Rings of the Brighthearth
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Staff of Domination
2 Thrumming Stone
1 Time Vault
1 Trinisphere
1 Triskelavus
3 Umbral Mantle
1 Tinker

aahz
08-09-2012, 12:48 PM
I really like this approach. You could easily run Gorilla Shaman to have a ton of game against Powered decks too. Mox Monkey + Welder is quite effective at dispatching artifact decks.
+1

Something else to consider about going in this direction is that the mana from Sol lands can be used for anything (unlike Workshop), so things that aren't viable in Shops might work here (i.e. things that cost R2 or have activations that require mana). Viashino Heretic could be a beast in this deck. That list is screaming for a Barbarian Ring and another Grim Monolith or two. I wonder if a white splash for Enlightened Tutor would work giving you access to a silver bullet strategy out of the board along with searching up Vault/Key. This also let's you play Thalia if you really feel lile taxing the rich even more. Just thinking out loud here.

Koby
08-09-2012, 12:58 PM
Someone remind me to upload almost all of my Classic format decks into this forum. They are inherently lacking Power 9, and can be re-build without Workshops too. Make sure I do as well, cuz I'm lazy as a stoned sloth.

boney
08-09-2012, 06:50 PM
+1

Something else to consider about going in this direction is that the mana from Sol lands can be used for anything (unlike Workshop), so things that aren't viable in Shops might work here (i.e. things that cost R2 or have activations that require mana). Viashino Heretic could be a beast in this deck. That list is screaming for a Barbarian Ring and another Grim Monolith or two. I wonder if a white splash for Enlightened Tutor would work giving you access to a silver bullet strategy out of the board along with searching up Vault/Key. This also let's you play Thalia if you really feel lile taxing the rich even more. Just thinking out loud here.

This is true, adding Karn also works well. Sol lands also equip the swords which is an advantage as well.

SpikeyMikey
08-13-2012, 09:03 PM
While what you're saying is correct, we're getting to the point where Bazaars need to be considered "Power". For example, did Erik Hegemann really need the extra prize for being the highest placing "unpowered" deck at BOM in addition to the complete set of Power 9 he got for winning the whole event? No offense meant to Erik (he's clearly a very good player and it's awesome that he's here posting in the dredge thread), but I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Dredge with 4xBazaar isn't really "unpowered" except in a backwards, historical sense. Not to mention the fact that Bazaars cost more now than the Power 9 did when they were originally bestowed the title of "Power".

Jesus. I haven't paid attention to prices for years, but I bought Bazaars back when people still thought they were bad and I paid $12/ea. for them. At Comic-Con where prices were retarded. It's crazy to see them on SCG sold out at $250. And that's why I don't own Magic cards anymore. Sorry for the off-topic, I just found that shocking.