Prison Affinity

[Infinitium]

I've always been fascinated with 8-Ball Affinity. On paper it always seemed viable enough save the fact that playing sphere effects in an aggressive deck never, ever works out versus anything that -isn't- storm decks. Luckily, recent years have seen several very much viable artifact hatebears (Revoker and Canonist, respectively) as well as Mox Opal - which not only facilitates a turn 1 Chalice@1 but also allows the deck to cut Springleaf Drum as it's premium source of rainbow mana.

Of course, it's still somewhat limited in deck design in that it has to play 0-mana creatures in order to facilitate Metalcraft fast enough for Opal to matter, luckily it has access to Cranial Plating, Ravager and 2 of the arguably strongest, albeit usually neglected Lords in the game to make these and the utility creatures relevant in combat.

With 8 maindecked hatebears with tribe support, the ability to go chalice@1 and still have a respectable curve and the ability to go curbstomp aggro if left unchecked I feel it's time to beat this horse again.

Artifact Chalice Tribal Stompy V1.00

// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
1 [DDF] Darksteel Citadel
1 [MR] Glimmervoid
4 [MR] Ancient Den

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
2 [MGD] Memnite
4 [M10] Ornithopter
4 [M11] Steel Overseer
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

// Spells
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [HOP] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [NPH] Torpor Orb
SB: 3 [6E] Cursed Totem
SB: 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives

15 0 Mana artifacts to facilitate 4 Mox Opal T1 (as well as Ancient Tomb), 9 Sources of each color to cast a total of 4 colored mana symbols each (and EE postside), a sideboard I've spent several seconds assembling, more synergies than you can shake a stick at and a crippling weakness to anything resembling a prepared metagame.

Thoughts?

[kwis]

How bad does Hurkyl's Recall on your endstep smash this deck?
Stony Silence / Null Rod?
Blood Moon / Magus Moon?
Any problem creature on the board?

How does it deal with other kinds of hate?
Is your gameplan that nobody is metagaming against you?


I can see where the deck could be effective, but I also see it getting completely thrashed by a few sideboard cards which it can't answer. Your 2cmc curve is so congested that you can't really drop a chalice to block some additional hate cards without massively hamstringing yourself. I also wonder how well you do against other decks that pack challice for 1? I feel like if chalice isn't hurting your opponent, you'll have a really bad time.

[Justin]

@Kwis: I don't think your criticisms are very fair. Hardly anyone plays any of the sideboard cards that you mentioned. Affinity is very much off the radar in Legacy right now. The only ones that aren't extremely rare are the "moon" spells that change non-basics to mountains. But those cards don't hurt Affinity because the vast majority of the spells it casts are colorless, artifact lands retain their artifact type (even under "moon" effect), and the deck can still use Mox Opal for colored mana anyway.

@Infinitium: I like your idea. You are doing something different than the standard, ultra-aggro affinity. I'll make a few suggestions.

While I like Blinkmoth Nexus in some affinity builds, I would cut it in yours to make room for more Darksteel Citadel and City of Traitors. Citadel is pretty important in a format that is full of Wasteland. More "Sol Lands" will help you get that turn one Chalice and otherwise help accelerate your deck.

You should probably also include Vault Skirge. It is a one-drop with a casting cost of two, so it gets around Chalice@1. The life loss from the phyrexian mana is not a big deal and can be made up for by lifelink later. It has a sick combo with Cranial Plating. It's also nice to have a one-drop in the deck, in that it gives you a turn one play when you don't have a Sol Land or a metalcrafted Mox. The best criticism that Kwis provided was that your 2cc creatures are congested. You might cut a combination of Ravagers and Overseers to fit in a set of Skirge.

[frogger42]

@Kwis: I don't think your criticisms are very fair. Hardly anyone plays any of the sideboard cards that you mentioned.

I'm with Kwis. Those are relevant spells, and say "you were winning one turn ago, but now I have the game." I'm playing a deck right now that's not "Affinity," and I have to play through those cards too. Pernicious Deed? Burning Wish -> Meltdown/ Shattering Spree? Not everyone plays RUG with 1 Grudge in the SB. Those cards are all relevant to the meta and one copy does irreparable damage to your board state. You will face something like it in any given 5 rounds, because I've always faced that stuff in any given 5.

Feel free to check out my deck, it's in this forum as "Balls of Steel." It's not perfect, but I built it with Recall/Aff Hosers in mind. Might be some good ideas for you to use in there.

[kwis]

@Kwis: I don't think your criticisms are very fair. Hardly anyone plays any of the sideboard cards that you mentioned. Affinity is very much off the radar in Legacy right now. The only ones that aren't extremely rare are the "moon" spells that change non-basics to mountains. But those cards don't hurt Affinity because the vast majority of the spells it casts are colorless, artifact lands retain their artifact type (even under "moon" effect), and the deck can still use Mox Opal for colored mana anyway.


I agree that I decided to ask the hard questions about the deck first. While the cards I mentioned aren't the most common they still have quite a big impact on the deck. They also serve purposes other than just neutering affinity.

One of my biggest concerns about this deck is that it seems like it's trying to ride the hate bear disruption to a quick win. However it seems like due to the lack of removal you can't get obstacles out of the way.


If your opponent plays almost any hate-permanent at 2cmc you can't kill it with explosives without destroying your board. The only way you can really make that kind of an exchange profitable is if you had a ravenger feeding another guy counter. While vault skirge is good, you will just further compound that problem with using explosives as your answer.

[Infinitium]

@Kwis: It's Affinity. Your manabase will always be artifact based by definition, which means if someone wants to hate you out bad enough you simply lose. Maindecked Revoker does answer the more common maindeck problems (mostly Deed). "Not getting obstacles out of the way" may or may not be a problem but do keep in mind the deck's creatures are typically larger (MoE, Plating), Evasive (Thopter, Blinkmoth, Skirge) or breaks ground stalls (Overseer). Ravager is also notorious for pushing through lethal damage from scratch. I personally don't feel the need for maindecked removal.

@Frogger: Again, Affinity. You will lose games to concentrated hate since it affects your manabase, it's the price you pay.

@Justin: I disagree on Nexus - it's still effectively an artifact card for MoE, a flying body for Plating and is crucial in playing around mass removal in some matchups (Miracle UW comes to mind). Manabase stability is likewise probably wishful thinking as beside T1 Citadel the Wasteland immunity is irrelevant, sadly.

Vault Skirge I actually haven't tested yet since I dislike how much it depends on other cards. Like, if I'm beating someone over the head with Plating I expect to race them anyhow life gain nonwithstanding, and without either that or multiple lords a 1/1 evasive Lifelinker doesn't look appealing. Granted there's Ravager as well but that's plenty dangerous even with Chalice.

Looking over the deck again, the weakest card is probably Ravager (with Canonist as the runner up since it's very hard to quantify its effect without knowing the opponents hand). Overseer is likewise hard to judge since it's much too slow in many matchups but vital in enabling my utility creatures in creature matchups (sure there's Plating and to a lesser extent MoE, but those cannot be solely relied on). I currently want to cut something (probably 2 Ravagers) to fit in the last 2 Memnites to further the swarm plan. Also toying with the idea of replacing Canonist with Phantasmal Image to metagame S&T and fit in FoW somehow. Maybe.

[frogger42]

@Frogger: Again, Affinity. You will lose games to concentrated hate since it affects your manabase, it's the price you pay.


Pernicious Deed is not concentrated hate. Wish into Shattering Spree is not concentrated hate. And having Revokers or Meddling Mage or whatever in your deck doesn't keep your opponent from cracking a Deed on your board. You have to draw (and resolve, and protect) Revoker before Deed wins.

If you're comfortable playing a deck that, every now and then, "pays the price" to one card, fine. RUG doesn't do that, Maverick doesn't do that, no top deck does. Even Dredge wins through a single hate. If you really don't want to hear constructive advice, then (last piece of advice) don't post on the "developmental" board. Developing your deck is what this forum is here for. Telling everyone we're all wrong doesn't actually help you construct a deck.

Sincerely,
Frogger

[Justin]

Yeah, you absolutely want four Memnite in any affinity build.

Again, the most compelling reason to run Vault Skirge in your deck is not the lifelink, but the fact that it's effectively a one-drop that gets arround Clalice@1. It helps your mana curve. If you have exactly one mana on turn one, or if you have one mana left over on any other turn for that matter, that mana gets wasted if you don't have any one-drops. If you have a Skirge in hand, you will be able to cast it in situations in which you can't cast anything else in your deck (other than 0cc spells obv.). If you instead run other 2cc creatures in those slots (Ravager, Overseer, etc.), they will just sit in your hand for another turn, slowing down your deck. I suspect that if you test Skirge, you will find that it helps your deck run faster and more smoothly.

[alderon666]

Pernicious Deed is not concentrated hate. Wish into Shattering Spree is not concentrated hate. And having Revokers or Meddling Mage or whatever in your deck doesn't keep your opponent from cracking a Deed on your board. You have to draw (and resolve, and protect) Revoker before Deed wins.

If you're comfortable playing a deck that, every now and then, "pays the price" to one card, fine. RUG doesn't do that, Maverick doesn't do that, no top deck does. Even Dredge wins through a single hate. If you really don't want to hear constructive advice, then (last piece of advice) don't post on the "developmental" board. Developing your deck is what this forum is here for. Telling everyone we're all wrong doesn't actually help you construct a deck.

Sincerely,
Frogger

Yeah RUG doesn't lose to CB/Top... oh wait.

Give the guy a break. This is obviously not a deck that you're going to dominate the field for weeks on a row. If people want to hate you out, they will. Even RUG can be hated out, the deal is that Affinity is easier to.

The "hate cards" I think are relevent to keep in mind are: Pernicious Deed, Ancient Grudge, Quasali Pridemage, Tuk-tuk Scrapper. Out of those, only deed is overly problematic.

Any of the other hoser cards, simple aren't there. Nobody plays Hurkyl's Recall. You'll have to play UW, RUG, Maverick all day and you're packing that crap against 0,5% of the field? You are doing it wrong.



On the deck. Turn 1/2 Chalice seems very strong against the field.
Revoker seems like a hatebear that belongs in the MD. He stops a lot of problematic cards like Jitte, Deed, Wasteland, Jace, Knight of Reliquary and GW creatures in general. Or it can be used as disruption naming LED, fetchlands, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, SDT. It has a very puny body...

[whiley85]

On the deck. Turn 1/2 Chalice seems very strong against the field.
Revoker seems like a hatebear that belongs in the MD. He stops a lot of problematic cards like Jitte, Deed, Wasteland, Jace, Knight of Reliquary and GW creatures in general. Or it can be used as disruption naming LED, fetchlands, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, SDT. It has a very puny body...

Lands are not a good choice...

[kwis]

@Kwis: It's Affinity. Your manabase will always be artifact based by definition, which means if someone wants to hate you out bad enough you simply lose.

I understand that, which is why I asked if your gameplan was to just not play against those cards because of the metagame. What I really question is if the deck does well enough in the matchups where it doesn't fight dedicated hate to accept being blown out in the matchups where there is dedicated hate.


Maindecked Revoker does answer the more common maindeck problems (mostly Deed). "Not getting obstacles out of the way" may or may not be a problem but do keep in mind the deck's creatures are typically larger (MoE, Plating), Evasive (Thopter, Blinkmoth, Skirge) or breaks ground stalls (Overseer). Ravager is also notorious for pushing through lethal damage from scratch. I personally don't feel the need for maindecked removal.

I understand that the deck wants to just muscle through resistance at a very quick pace. However it seems like without any removal pieces in the MD or even the SB that you set yourself up for failure against anyone with a decent a hate piece. Maybe you can muscle through a lot of non-dedicated hate that people bring in against you, maybe not. I know some people who have started to play with Ratchet Bombs or Explosives in order to deal with flipped delvers, these should be pretty relevant since your 2cmc curve is so vulnerable and because it can blow away your 0cmc guys. The lack of removal also means that a card like Necroplasm pretty much puts someone in a bye bracket against you, and I've seen him show up more often thanks to delvers and mongeese.

I also don't see Frogmites, Hoverguard, or Enforcer in the build. That suggests that you are a lot more reliant on your mana than more traditional affinity builds, and that you can't really put out the same kind of pressure during the early stages. In my experience it was that early pressure which stole games because most opponents were starting at 8 life by the time they stabilized enough to play a fair game, then they tended to just die to a burn/pseudo-burn spell or flying plating. This seems like it might be a concern for a deck that only plays 14 lands and 4 mox, especially since you can't have 2 mox in play.

[No_Life_No_Future]

Why no Etched Champion?

[frogger42]

I understand that, which is why I asked if your gameplan was to just not play against those cards because of the metagame. What I really question is if the deck does well enough in the matchups where it doesn't fight dedicated hate to accept being blown out in the matchups where there is dedicated hate.


I can half-answer that. Affinity right now is nothing special, to be honest. It'll have some good MUs and some bad ones, just like RUG, Goblins, Storm and every other deck has them. Except maybe Dredge, which usually can take G1 most of the time, and then has to fight through hate in almost every MU. Affinity doesn't really have that kind of bonkers synergy that Dredge has where you get free wins against your opponent.
Case in point. I played a completely different deck where my only removal was The Abyss x4. I never wanted to see Affinity, because obviously I couldn't kill any of its dudes. So I naturally played the one Aff deck out of like 100 people, and my deck's nightmare MU was really just another deck that dies to Crucible of Worlds. Add to that my G2 got even better, because now I could take out Abyss and get more relevant answers. Aff is weak to Deed and stuff, but it also doesn't give you free wins the way Dredge and Combo do. You still have to grind with it just like any other deck.

and @Kwis, sometimes you have to know when someone doesn't want to listen. It's the internet. You should get used to that.

[Darkenslight]

Drop the Overseers for Sphere of Resistance or Thorn of Amethyst, then possibly change the Tombs for Great Furnace.

Possibly change the Totems in the board for Galvanic Blast or Shrapnel Blast, with the optional Sigarda, Host of Herons pickup (Eldrazi hate) as an alternative.

[Infinitium]

I understand that, which is why I asked if your gameplan was to just not play against those cards because of the metagame. What I really question is if the deck does well enough in the matchups where it doesn't fight dedicated hate to accept being blown out in the matchups where there is dedicated hate.

I take it you've played Affinity builds before so you really have to decide that for yourself. Personally I like to think of it as the natural extreme of tribal decks - compared to other aggressive decks you trade mana stability and worse standalone creatures for (in-tribe) better mana acceleration, better burn, better Lords, better equipment, better manlands, easily accessible evasion (less of a point with Delver in the format) and an assortment of combat tricks. In a meta where the projected hate amounts to some sideboarded Krosan Grip and the odd utility creature I consider this a good deal.


I understand that the deck wants to just muscle through resistance at a very quick pace. [...] Necroplasm pretty much puts someone in a bye bracket against you, and I've seen him show up more often thanks to delvers and mongeese.

You got it. Do keep in mind the average goldfish is in the vicinity of T3-T4 (closer to T4), which means those particular cards you mentioned have to be supplemented by other removal and/or acceleration or just be too little too late.


I also don't see Frogmites, Hoverguard, or Enforcer in the build. That suggests that you are a lot more reliant on your mana than more traditional affinity builds, and that you can't really put out the same kind of pressure during the early stages. In my experience it was that early pressure which stole games because most opponents were starting at 8 life by the time they stabilized enough to play a fair game, then they tended to just die to a burn/pseudo-burn spell or flying plating. This seems like it might be a concern for a deck that only plays 14 lands and 4 mox, especially since you can't have 2 mox in play.

I have 18 lands by my count, and surplus Moxes can always be sacced to Ravager (effectively accelerating your mana no less). So far basic mana requirements hasn't been much of an issue (currently running a total of 9 U sources including a basic island).

Memnite has completely replaced Frogmite for all intents and purposes in most modern builds. Both are small non-evasive creatures that are reliant on other cards to deal meaningful amounts of damage, but at least Memnite can support T1 Mox. Enforcer I'm actually testing out as a 2-of atm in lieu of Canonist (which proved bad against anything but certain combo decks, and hogged the 2cc spot). 4/4 coming down on turn 2-3 isn't spectacular by itself, but it does speed the deck up somewhat and has that intrinsic Deed resistance (along with replacing Dens with Citadels).

Also, whilst not as fast as Galvanic/Disciple/Pest builds it's still Affinity - turn 1 barf hand T2 active Overseer/MoE/Plating is still pretty much the modus operandi.


Drop the Overseers for Sphere of Resistance or Thorn of Amethyst, then possibly change the Tombs for Great Furnace.

Possibly change the Totems in the board for Galvanic Blast or Shrapnel Blast, with the optional Sigarda, Host of Herons pickup (Eldrazi hate) as an alternative.

That is terrible advice. Sphere effects not named Thalia have been proven time and again not to work in Legacy. This goes double for this deck as (in particar order) it doesn't run mana disruption, doesn't run removal for whatever spells get through and has a gameplan that's far too aggressive to incorporate plays not putting pressure on the opponent. Galvanic Blast in a deck aiming at a quick Chalice@1 is bad. Cutting Ancient Tomb is doubly bad since most key spells cost {2}, and it still accelerates the ones that don't by a turn all the same. Sigarda I won't comment on since I just can't bring myself to believe you are being serious.

[Tormod]

Interesting spin, the title doesn't really fit the deck though. I see some hate bears but no prison. I would expect a prison affinity to be less creature based and more prison components with thought cast for draw.

I do like the hate bears, but what matches do they help you? I can see Ethersworn helping vs storm and elves, I can see Revoker is good against Jace, lavamancer and top. I might be missing some others.

Legacy is a creature meta, so 0 removal seems incorrect. Dispatch would be the best fix.

If you're also looking for some kind of board control through hate bears, I would recommend a little more reach in your game when the aggro plan goes south. Tezzeret, AOB seems like the right card for this deck.

[Infinitium]

Canonist turned out kind of pants - basically all decks in the format save Storm, Omniscience and Burn are comfortable at playing out 1 card per turn, and I miss out on most of the good interactions without instant speed cards. I've cut it from my current list along with the color White altogether.

Revoker is godly though, especially as I can power it out on turn 1 and make it relevant later on thanks to Cranial/Lords. Like, aside for RU(g) it's hard to come up with matchups where it doesn't shine. It gets Grieselbrand. It gets Aether Vial. It gets all mana-accelerating permanents. It gets Stoneforge Mystic, as well as whatever Equipment it would tutor for. It gets all of Maverick. I could continue but I'm sure you get the point. Granted what it also gets are targets painted on it, but for 2 colorless I'm fine with that.

[kwis]

I'm not sure that you necessarily want to take out white all together when Dispatch is possibly the best removal spell in the game for you. If you're still opposed to running any reaction based strategy then I guess this doesn't matter to you, however I wouldn't be overly surprised if Dispatch found it's way into your build during play-testing.

Yea I missed counting the last 4of land set for some reason. That seems far more healthy.

I can understand that memnite replaces frogmite and helps other parts of the deck come together earlier. But I always saw frogmites resistance to deed and smother as two very nice characteristics. It also seems unfortunate that memnite can't attack through a SFM unless he has buddies on the board who can buff him. That seems somewhat scary since the SFM can get a batterskull and ruin your day. Granted, only a moron would block instead of taking 2 and playing the skull, it just comes back to not being able to react to your opponent outside of declaring attacks/blocks. You're asking your opponent to play around you rather than play with you, I think mixing the playstyles yields better results.


What role does explosives play for you? Where do you plan on bringing it in? Are you comfortable that you can't really play it for sunburst2? (unless you eat everything at 2cmc with ravager and feed a flying kite)

[Infinitium]

I don't think Dispatch will see play ever in competitive Affinity builds. It's not an artifact, doesn't fit the gameplan and is in a subpar color otherwise. The red blasts (of the Galvanic, Shrapned and Elemental varieties) gets a pass since the first two also acts as reach and the last is decent combo hate, but with Chalice being my main gameplan those don't exactly mesh here.

Frogmite being 4cc means it dies all the same when the Deed player makes his next landdrop. Nobody plays Smother. Not being able to race Stoneforge fetching Batterskull when my board only consists of Memnite and my opponent being at 1 life is something I can live with. Frogmite being a vanilla 2/2 and not helping me get turn 1 chalice@1 more frequently I can't.

I don't run explosives anymore since I cut White. I run Ratchet Bomb now. The 2cc thing is sometimes an issue, but not as much as you make it out to be - me being able to sandbag my 2cc spells if i foresee needing to play it at that for one thing. Me still getting rid of some permanent that apparantly would beat those same spells otherwise for a second.

I'm still tuning my list btw, this is what I play now:

// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [DDF] Darksteel Citadel
1 [9E] Island

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [MGD] Memnite
4 [M10] Ornithopter
4 [M11] Steel Overseer
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
2 [NPH] Vault Skirge
2 [MR] Myr Enforcer
2 [DS] Arcbound Ravager

// Spells
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [HOP] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [NPH] Torpor Orb
SB: 3 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [MI] Cursed Totem

I kind of like this at the time being. Skirge has been decent thus far, as has Overseer. Surgical Extraction as the secondary GY hate might look weird but do keep in mind it doubles up as combo hate, Chalice dissynergy nonwithstsanding.