Nicol Bolas - how?

[slave]

Hi all,

So firstly I should explain - after trading away a lot of cards I no longer play, I received a few walkers and other goodies in the trade.
Got some really nice fetches, a couple Liliana of the Dark Realms, which are disappointing from a competitive view - and I also got a few Nic's, making my count up to four. :really:

So;
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker.
Best effects on any walker without a doubt - IF - you can get it into play, right?

What ways could I get Big Nic into play quickly and start wrecking the place?
.....Show and Tell isn't much help.......

[The Treefolk Master]

Eureka is the best way I can think of. It's obviously quite slow at 2GG, but can be much more backbreaking than any other similar effects.

It's usually played in conjunction with show and tell, for example:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=nicol+bolas%2C+planeswalker&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

[rufus]

Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker.
Best effects on any walker without a doubt - IF - you can get it into play, right?

What ways could I get Big Nic into play quickly and start wrecking the place?
.....Show and Tell isn't much help.......

He's not that great, to be honest. Karn Liberated seems better at a lower CC. Karn, along with Eureka are ways to put him into play.

[DLifshitz]

He sort of fits into Dream Halls.

[slave]

I thought Eureka would be mentioned.:wink:
To properly support a deck running Show and Tell, a heap of fatties, Eureka and a lot of dual lands - I'd be needing some DEEP pockets!!!

I'm sure Dream Halls is worth a look.
Thats the card that made me start this threat actually, as I saw it as a budget option to Eureka. It would however change the deck approach a fair bit.
(This would force me to lose the Eureka-style build win-con Emrakul's, and focus on creatures that share colours with blue mainly.).
Painter's Servant could potentially get around this and give me Pyroblast/Hydroblast to play with, and I'd have a nice alternate win-con singleton in Grindstone.
I wonder if a heavy counter/filter-style build with tutor in UB might be able to pull this off? Dream Halls really demands you play Conflux i think.
This sounds a bit more like a casual deck idea to me as it's relying on too many cards, or it's relying on having lots of cards in hand - anyone else think so?

Another I considered is Mosswort Bridge.
The drawback means Big Nic would always be the one I'd want to hideaway, and I'd want more ways to guarauntee 10 power in play.
And Wasteland says no BTW - I hate that card...

[bruizar]

Sadly, Omniscience already has better things to do, but omniscience does perform the task pretty well. Also, dream halls.

If you want to go for Omniscience, you could play Burning Wish into Glittering Wish into Nicol Bolas, but it is almost surely inferior to Burning Wish into Living Wish into Emrakul.

[rufus]

..
This sounds a bit more like a casual deck idea to me as it's relying on too many cards, or it's relying on having lots of cards in hand - anyone else think so?
...

Nicol Bolas has a cmc of 8 and doens't win immediately. That makes him casual by competitive legacy standards.

[slave]

Sadly, Omniscience already has better things to do, but omniscience does perform the task pretty well. Also, dream halls.

If you want to go for Omniscience, you could play Burning Wish into Glittering Wish into Nicol Bolas, but it is almost surely inferior to Burning Wish into Living Wish into Emrakul.

Cheers.

Omniscience is a nice option too - but Dream Halls is just a tad more likely to get hard cast, so I don't completely rely on Show and Tell.

Emrakul is killer. Living Wish/Eureka/SHow and Tell etc. would be an awesome deck, but Bolas doesn't quite work with that too well.
Glittering Wish isn't one I'd thought of.....
In a WUG build it could be possible I guess?


Nicol Bolas has a cmc of 8 and doens't win immediately. That makes him casual by competitive legacy standards.

Very true.
As a control card option only I agree with you - it's way too slow.
I don't think a control deck centered on Bolas is worth the effort unless you have a fast way to cheat this sucker in play!
I'm thinking of using Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker more of an answer to troublesome artifact/enchantments, or to steal a certain creature-threat rather than a using Nic as a win-con in itself.
The fact that Bolas can immediately destroy, or steal, anything you could target when it enters the field is worth it ......I think.:confused:

The more I look at it, Dream Halls (and in turn it's enabler SHow and Tell) looks like the most probable way get it out.
With Show and Halls in hand, it's possible to get Big Nic out on turn1 or 2 with a little acceleration and a lucky draw.
Of course turn 4 is much more likely when you hard cast Dreams.

I'm starting to wonder whether a shell similar to the Dream halls decks of old might be the way to go?
IE: Dream Halls, Conflux, Progenitus, Show and Tell, Cruel Ultimatum and some deck manipulation like Lim-Dul's Vault, Brainstorm and some discard/counter.
Now Omniscience has made an appearance maybe a couple of those too?

The added benifit with this build would be most of the parts here are fairly easy to find, and aren't so horribly expensive I wanna shit.
....Apart from Show and Tell and Force of Will of course.

In a build like this, its gonna be tough to fit in more than 2 or 3 Big Nic's, but it could be a mainboard answer to artifacts and enchantments, that can potentially turn the game in your favour if they can't answer it.

Thoughts? Is this worth persuing?

[Valtrix]

Hardcast? You could make an awkward artifact mana accel into him. Otherwise I think Eureka is your only way to cheat him into play (for <5 mana).

If only Mycosynth Lattice would work...

[slave]

Hardcast? You could make an awkward artifact mana accel into him. Otherwise I think Eureka is your only way to cheat him into play (for <4 mana).

Getting to 8 mana isn't too hard by turn 3, but doing it with exactly 4UUBR would have to be very hard to get working consistently.
Sooooomany ways of dealing with a planeswalker too....
Seems all-or-nothing.

Eureka combined with lots of fatties is a genuinely great idea.
Glittering Wish, Living Wish and Boseiju could be good here too, and potentially mean the deck might even be playable in mono-green.:cry:
Eureka would make a deck ideal for multiplayer LOL.
My main concern with Eureka is manabase - it demands you have a very expensive manabase or play a mainly green deck.

[rufus]

...
Very true.
As a control card option only I agree with you - it's way too slow.
I don't think a control deck centered on Bolas is worth the effort unless you have a fast way to cheat this sucker in play!
I'm thinking of using Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker more of an answer to troublesome artifact/enchantments, or to steal a certain creature-threat rather than a using Nic as a win-con in itself.
The fact that Bolas can immediately destroy, or steal, anything you could target when it enters the field is worth it ......I think.:confused:

As long as we're on the same page about this probably turning into a casual deck...some of these are better than others...
Brilliant Ultimatum
Djinn of Wishes
Hellcarver Demon
Hideaway lands
Intet, The Dreamer
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Knowledge Pool
Maelstrom Archangel
Omen Machine
Omniscience
Wild Evocation
Eureka
Genesis Wave?
Karn Liberated
Primal Surge
Wargate
Warp World
Dream Halls
Fist of Suns

[kwis]

I think your best bet is probably the white hideaway land in a deck resembling UW CB-Top/Miracles. Possibly with Scrying Sheets.

[jjflipped]

FYI, you can win with halls/omni out with this guy...

you cast conflux for:
NB:PW
Tezzeret's Gambit
Wheel of Sun + Moon
Conflux
Progenitus (or force if you have omni)

you play wheel, nicol, gambit (goes to bottom), conflux for gambit + conflux, repeat until you can ultimate, grab him again, repeat...

[slave]

As long as we're on the same page about this probably turning into a casual deck...some of these are better than others...

Thanks for all that Rufus, some options in there alright.:cool:

I'll see if I can get it competitive - a dream halls build seems like a good bet, as Conflux allows me a fair bit of wriggle room to make whatever strategy I like provided I have lots of multi-colour cards in there.
Provided I can get Bolas on the field, it allows me to devote less cards to the sideboard as answers, and gives me more room to devote to pulling off my combo or denying the hate I'm gonna be getting. .....maybe.:really:
But I'll have to see how competitive it is with something like Time Stretch so I can go ultimate.

Out of interest though, I've seen a few Dream Halls / Conflux builds using walkers.
Mainly Sorin Markov, using his -10 life ability, but I've also seen a couple using Jace the Mindraper, Venser the Sojourner.
Markov I understand, the other two are a real surprise though!


I think your best bet is probably the white hideaway land in a deck resembling UW CB-Top/Miracles. Possibly with Scrying Sheets.

Thanks, I'll give Windbrisk Heights a look.
I'm not very keen on a white weenie build, but I'll give it a try.

UW COuntertop would be pretty resilient, I'll have a good look at that too.
Cheers.


FYI, you can win with halls/omni out with this guy...
you cast conflux for:
NB:PW
Tezzeret's Gambit
Wheel of Sun + Moon
Conflux
Progenitus (or force if you have omni)
you play wheel, nicol, gambit (goes to bottom), conflux for gambit + conflux, repeat until you can ultimate, grab him again, repeat...

Thanks jjflipped,
I think I'd rather just play a single Time Stretch instead of Gambit and Wheel, especially since I'll most likely have lots of counter/filter stuff to pitch to Stretch.
Time Stretch also makes a typical Progenitus beats your face approach more likely to get the damage through, provided you can get Dream Halls to stick.

I've tested a few different builds, and I'm loving Dream Halls. Such a flexible deck! Seems there are so many different way to build your win-con, as the the engine part of the deck doesn't really seem to care too much about what your win-con is, provided you can keep it fairly compact, and survive long enough to make it work.:smile:
Cruel Ultimatum is killer!

[Dark Ritual]

@Rufus: How do you lose when nicol bolas, planeswalker lands? The only way I see you losing when he lands is if your opponent is on storm combo or something that nicol bolas can't interact with. Against control nicol bolas is insanely good as he blows up anything they might play and as for creatures against nicol bolas, that plan will never work.

The only way I've heard of nicol bolas being played in legacy is in eureka show and tell to cheat him in with eureka. But that's pretty much it. He's far too much mana to be hardcast in a format with spell pierce. You could maybe try him in a 4 color nic fit shell, although that doesn't seem good.

[Lord Seth]

The simple issue with Nicol Bolas in Legacy is that whatever way you try to get him into play, there's going to be a better card to put in his place.

[slave]

Good Point.
The main thing I find with Bolas is that he's useful when he comes out early with Show and Tell, provided I don't have any other combo parts showing up.
He'll usually just target lands or whatever threat they bring out, and he's a great way of negating the down-side of Show and Tell as long as Bolas can target whatever threat the opponent has brought out.

In Dream Halls - I've found he's quite useful against aggro seeing as how he often gets on the field by turn 2 or 3, stealing their biggest threat until I can get the combo to finish them. Show and Tell is always gonna be the best way to get Bolas out I think, as with COnflux there is always something else I'd wanna be doing.

[lochlan]

Show and Tell

You can't drop Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker off Show and Tell. Read the card.

[Asthereal]

Maelstrom Archangel seems a way. She's green, so you can Zenith or Narural Order her into play. Put that in a sort of Nic Fit-like shell that creates lots of mana, and we have a deck they won't be expecting.

Something like:

Nic and his friends:
3 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
3 Maelstrom Archangel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Progenitus (we might sometimes need a more straightforward way to win)
4 Natural Order /13

Protect that plan:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize /8

Mana accel:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer /9

Other neat stuff that might help:
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze /8

Lands:
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Island
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Phyrexian Tower /22

Looks pretty awkward, but the list can create mana to hardcast Nic, and there's lots of options for getting the Archangel into play. If you just play game one as a NOPRO deck, people will side against that. Games two and three you go Archangel into Nic. Not sure if it'll ever be competitive, but my guess is something like this is your best bet to get Nicol to work. Problem stands that anything you use to cheat Nic into play could be used for something that wins more quickly and certainly.

[slave]

You can't drop Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker off Show and Tell. Read the card.

Yeah I know.
I addressed that in the first post up top.
Show and Tell > Dream Halls > Nic.


Cheers Asthereal;
I'll have to give that list a try and see how it goes.
Thanks!

[Asthereal]

You're welcome. :smile:

If I look at it again now, I see a small problem: white mana.
Perhaps you could cut the Sigarda for a Thrun, so you never need WW.
Next to that you could add a basic Plains to make it easier to hardcast Maelstrom Angel.
It's pretty tough to support five colours...

[edgarps22]

So run Cavern of Souls and name Angel. You can then force it through save your own protection for keeping the angel in play and yeah, it works decent. This does look like some fun.

[slave]

So I tried playing with the Angel (goldfishing).
It's cute, but not competitive.

To be honest, I'm thinking the best thing I could do is just pop Omniscience into the Dream Halls build as a 1 of, and then use that to make the most of conflux and Bolas. But if I'm playing Omni in there....Bolas is sooooo win-more.
hmmmm......

[Asthereal]

Not unexpected though.
The problem is that you invest 8 mana in a slow way to win the game.
You could also invest 5 mana and win on the spot (Ad Nauseam).
Taking that into account, you know the chances of getting it to work on a competitive level are slim at best.

[slave]

Not unexpected though.
The problem is that you invest 8 mana in a slow way to win the game.
You could also invest 5 mana and win on the spot (Ad Nauseam).
Taking that into account, you know the chances of getting it to work on a competitive level are slim at best.

Agree with this completely.
I think the main problem with Bolas is that cards like Teeg just make it hard to use, if it was a creature the card would be close to an auto-include.
The only time I can see Bolas useful is when he is the only option in hand with Dream Halls/Omniscience, and you just use it to control.
I found it useful against Glacial Chasm-type effects or cards that prevent me targetting my opponent for the typical False Cure kill.
...and that's about it.

The biggest problem is that an opponent playing Show and Tell will always have something cool potentially, whereas I would need Bolas AND Omni/Halls in hand to make it a good play if I can't counter.
For this reason alone I'm seriously thinking of making a deck based on Halls/Omni, SnT, Tutor and lots of filter/counter to try and make sure I always have some kind of threat in hand. Having a full playset of Bolas is something I may try with this, as well as some huge fatties of course, just to see how useful Bolas really can be......