Return to Ravnica Spoilers

[DLifshitz]

Black/Red simply don't share much interesting design space.

If you dig deep enough, B/R have had some hand shenaningans between them: discard, looting, hellbent, madness and what not. And this is still in many ways unexplored territory.

B/R are also the color of "Sacrifice a creature" abilities.

[Barook]

If you dig deep enough, B/R have had some hand shenaningans between them: discard, looting, hellbent, madness and what not. And this is still in many ways unexplored territory.
Which makes it even more insulting that Unleash became the Rakdos mechanic.

While other colors powercreep, it feels like B/R is actually taking steps back by taking good/mediocre/bad cards and making them worse. Just like Havoc Festival or Auger Spree, which is Blood Lust for one more :b: and the toughness limitation clause removed.
Rakdos's Return is a Mythic that just slaps Fireball and Mindtwist together and removes the best parts (option to target creatures and random discard).

The entire thing feels incredibly uninspired.

Another prime example is Rakdos Augermage. He would have been awesome if they didn't ruin the original Invitational design so much. Fighter body and sorcery speed tap abilities just don't go hand in hand.
Might be a bit better now with Liliana of the Veil because his ability still works without cards in hand, but still.

[Aggro_zombies]

Auger Spree, which is Blood Lust for one more :b: and the toughness limitation clause removed.
While I agree that the other cards feel uninspired, Auger Spree is straight-up removal in Limited. Based on what we've seen so far, it's probably going to be killing a very large number of annoying utility creatures (like, for example, the new guildmages). Bloodlust was basically power-pumping with a drawback; this is a very different card.

[Valtrix]

Terrastadon is 18 power guaranteed. This one is 15 and 15. Your math is off.

My hand of
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
1 Show and Tell
3 Terastodon
would like to disagree with you.

[Barook]

Auger Spree is straight-up removal in Limited.
Sure, that's what it's designed for, but the pump feels kinda pointless and just slapped in to justify the use of red mana. I doubt Rakdos is going to feature many big 5+ toughness butts.

Sudden Death does a better job at killing creatures.

[Aggro_zombies]

Sure, that's what it's designed for, but the pump feels kinda pointless and just slapped in to justify the use of red mana. I doubt Rakdos is going to feature many big 5+ toughness butts.

Sudden Death does a better job at killing creatures.
If you splash this card into a Golgari deck, it'll pump power. The Scavenge counters should ensure you have enough creatures to survive it.

That said, yeah, it is kind of unfortunate that the card's most common use - in base Rakdos or splashed into Izzet - will be as removal. But then, every format needs removal and adding the red mana here limits how cavalier you can be with splashing powerful removal spells into your deck (like Doom Blade getting turned into Murder to make it harder to splash).

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

To be fair, G/W as color combination only became a real powerhouse after the printing of Conflux onwards, providing Hierarch, Pridemage and KotR, and some time later, GSZ.

I agree it took awhile for the effects to be felt in Legacy, but there was progress in other formats as far as Green and White went. The beginning of the "hatebear" with things like True Beliver, Loxodon Hierarch/Watchwolf pushing the boundaries of creatures, Tarmogoyf going above and beyond that. Things like Chord of Calling, Summoners Pact, the shifting of card draw more heavily into Green all increasing the depth of their color.

Both Black and Red need stuff like this, especially seeing as their traditional mechanics have mostly been declared broken/unfun, leaving them husks of their former self.


Black/Red simply don't share much interesting design space. New LD sucks and creature kill has been overdone to death.

There's plenty of unused design space in both colors and even in the color combination; Wizards just needs to take the same kind of initiative in "pushing" and "expanding" the colors as they did with White and Green.

Speaking just about B/R multicolor stuff, consider the following:

1BR
Enchantment

At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card.

Whenever a player draws a card, [CARDNAME] deals 1 damage to them.

{The idea here is making a more aggro-oriented Phyrexian Arena in flavor with Red/Black; all about acting NOW and punishing durdle}


BR
Sorcery

[CARDNAME] deals 2 damage to target creature. Look at target player's hand and choose a non-creature, non-land card. That player discards that card.

{Give B/R some of that awesome card advantage the Bant colors often receive}


Some less specific things:

-Play on the idea of dodging Protection and maybe even dodging Hexproof. Look at cards like Void that can surgically remove creatures without targeting, or cards like Ghostflame/Ghostly Fire that help play against Protection, be it on a creature or on a circle.

-Play more with the Ashmouth Hound ability as a limited "Firstest Strike" ability. Pair it with Deathtouch and you have an incredible creature that can dominate creature combat. Maybe the push B/R needs?

-Risky card draw/selection that isn't predicated on random discard. Think more like Bob and less like Tibalt.

[Cire]

I would love cards that combine Looting and Discard something like

~1~ RB
Sorcery
Each player Discards 2 cards, then you draw 2 cards.

Not overpowered, but reasonably powerful.

Or Punishment type cards like brow beat

~2~ 1RB
Sorcery
Destroy all lands target opponent controls unless that player pays half his or her life rounded up

If all the choices suck then the card becomes decent...

Or return to nightmares

~3~ RB
Creature - Nightmare
When ~3~ enters the battlefield, exile another target creature.
When ~3~ leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control.
2/1

[Chikenbok]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/rtr/yn1n1r28cd_en.jpg

Well...

[RJM]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/rtr/yn1n1r28cd_en.jpg

Well...

She's pretty cool, actually. Definitely slow, but I dunno, I'll probably try to mash her into something like UBg control, since that's basically my favorite deck to play.

Ultimate is the lulz too.

[Chikenbok]

She's pretty cool, actually. Definitely slow, but I dunno, I'll probably try to mash her into something like UBg control, since that's basically my favorite deck to play.

Ultimate is the lulz too.

I was just thinking... Can I just jam this as a one of into BUG control? The casting cost is real harsh though..

[bruizar]

Terrastadon is 18 power guaranteed. This one is 15 and 15. Your math is off.

Which match is off? Did you read my post at all? I didnt even provide any math besides quoting what is stated on the card. If you want to talk about how my math is off let's look at the card first before shoving words in my mouth:


Trample

When Worldspine Wurm dies, put three 5/5 green Wurm creature tokens with trample onto the battlefield.

When Worldspine Wurm is put into a graveyard from anywhere, shuffle it into it's owner's library.
15/15

Perhaps you aren't aware of the difference between 3 5/5's and 1 15/15 but if you are going to attack me on my math, I would advise you to be accurate in your statements unless it's your goal to intentionally be a douchebag for no reason. Since, according to you, my math is wrong, please show me which math you are talking about so I can eat my words.

I asked how many other creatures had more than 15 power, the answer is none. The most powerful creature is emrakul the aeons torn, and now this wurm. If you are going to count terastidon, we might as well include keldon warlord, Nantuko shade and multani maro sorcerer. Besides, terastodon doesn't guarantee shit, just like this useless wurm that will get bounced by jace or eat stp.s all day long. Oh and please explain how terastidon is 18 while wurm is 15+15. It's either 9+3*3 and 15+3*5 or it's 18 and 30.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/rtr/yn1n1r28cd_en.jpg

Well...

That seems ridiculously good in a control shell, actually. That's not even a very long windup time to the ultimate. And planeswalkers that kill other planeswalkers are always useful.

[boneclub24]

Is it just me, or does the ultimate remind someone of Assasin's Creed where you can whistle to have someone go kill someone? I remember my friend showing me that, and this just sparked that.

[Shawon]

It's like WotC was reading my mind when I was thinking about Cranial Extraction today, and how it'd probably be playable against SnT if it was uncounterable.

And today I had finally tweaked my Affinity sb to yield positive results against SnT decks, and I get this untimely piece of... awesome joy:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135312&d=1346818625


Slaughter Games :2::b::r:
Sorcery
Slaughter Games can't be countered by spells or abilities.
Name a nonland card. Search target opponent's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with that name and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Dear Show and Tell,

Go fuck yourself.

Wizards

And even better, it only targets the opponent, so fuck you too Misdirection.

[Leftconsin]

If Vraska cost 4 and had 4 starting loyalty I'd be less on the fence. And if I were a designer those tokens would have deathtouch. I mean, they are killing a PLAYER. Why can't they kill a bear?

As for Legacy use: Veteran Explorer had become a real thing recently, so I can see her used in tandem with it because you'll be more likely to hit 5 mana in a normal game. I think this card is a card played for a while (6-12 months) in a few decks, but abandoned for other options.

[catmint]

Vraska looks very strong...
- Hard to kill for creature decks, killing creatures in different ways..
- Killing artifacts, enchantments or planeswalkers if needed
- Likely to kill an opponent in 4 turns if undisrupted. Much faster than jace, but without controlling the draw.

I saw Garruck in BUG control decks to win "creatureless". This is a very good upgrade.
NIic Fit will also love it I guess.

[Barook]

Slaughter Games seems decent, even if it's just a Cranial Extraction which is uncounterable (talking about originality again).

I don't know how to feel about Vraska. :3::b::g: is harsh. Her +1 is good to protect herself, but it does nothing else. Her -3 is nice, but takes a while to charge if used more than one time. Her Ultimate seems like a cool idea, but it would feel better if the tokens also had deathtouch.

[Antonius]

with hate lions being pushed over hate bears, who wants to bet that we'll see a hate nacatl some time soon?

I'd guess it will happen within three years.

[Lemnear]

Slaughter Games
Thought Hemorrhage
Cranial Extraction

Yeah R&D is really creative in terms of red and Black cards. Again only overcosted & weak enchantments/spells and bad creatures in addition to a plain uninspired creature-only-keyword to ensure nothing fancy happens with the mana acceleration in those colors (any rituals)

I just wait for the obligatory "Terror"-variant and at least 1 overcosted drawback demon


Edit: Vraska Looks nice flavorwise but I guess the typical BG decks prefer something more aggressive for that cost

[Aggro_zombies]

Slaughter Games
Thought Hemorrhage
Cranial Extraction

Yeah R&D is really creative in terms of red and Black cards. Again only overcosted & weak enchantments/spells and bad creatures in addition to a plain uninspired creature-only-keyword to ensure nothing fancy happens with the mana acceleration in those colors (any rituals)

I just wait for the obligatory "Terror"-variant and at least 1 overcosted drawback demon
The Terror variant is Dreadbore and the demon will probably be Rakdos.

[Leftconsin]

The Terror variant is Dreadbore and the demon will probably be Rakdos.

The sad thing is we have R&D figured out to this extent.

[Lemnear]

The Terror variant is Dreadbore and the demon will probably be Rakdos.

Indeed! Missed that we (basically) already know both :/

Dreadbore is soooo fitting

[Barook]

The sad thing is we have R&D figured out to this extent.
What can we realistically expect from the Rakdos charm, though?

A (random) Edict effect would be pretty sweet and a good start, but knowing R&D, it's probably going to be
"Target creature can't block this turn/target player loses 1 life/target creature gets +1/-1 until end of turn."

[Darkenslight]

What can we realistically expect from the Rakdos charm, though?

A (random) Edict effect would be pretty sweet and a good start, but knowing R&D, it's probably going to be
"Target creature can't block this turn/target player loses 1 life/target creature gets +1/-1 until end of turn."

I think that Edict/Reckless Charge/something will be the charm.

[Final Fortune]

I imagine the BR charm will have a +/- ability as its shared ability between the colors, maybe something like 1) Both players sacrifice a creature 2) Target creature gets +2/-2 3) Destroy target Artifact makes it fairly useful.

[eq.firemind]

Slaughter Games
Thought Hemorrhage
Cranial Extraction

Yeah R&D is really creative in terms of red and Black cards.
And they could be a little more imaginative with "pick cards from opp's deck" theme.
I would love to see something like this:

Sadistic Brain Surgery :br::b::r:
Sorcery
Search target opponent's hand, graveyard and library for two nonland cards, exile them, then that opponent loses life equal to the highest converted mana cost among cards exiled from library this way.

[Oiolosse]

The sad thing is we have R&D figured out to this extent.

No, we have Hasbro figured out to this extent.

[Barook]

No, we have Hasbro figured out to this extent.
What would Hasbro gain by making one color combination (one of the five main color combinations, no less) so shitty?

It just feels like R&D either can't design proper R/B cards or they don't even care.

[Shawon]

If Vraska cost 4 and had 4 starting loyalty I'd be less on the fence. And if I were a designer those tokens would have deathtouch. I mean, they are killing a PLAYER. Why can't they kill a bear?

As for Legacy use: Veteran Explorer had become a real thing recently, so I can see her used in tandem with it because you'll be more likely to hit 5 mana in a normal game. I think this card is a card played for a while (6-12 months) in a few decks, but abandoned for other options.

The tokens have deathtouch.

I'm going to put my money on this making Nic Fit see more play. It seems like a better planeswalker option than Garruk Relentless or Garruk, Primal Hunter.

[bruizar]

On the topic of Vraska, this card is really not worth the troubles. It's a big trap so trade them away to the standard folks that can use him.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135302&stc=1&d=1346817949

Let's analyze.

When the +1 is active, you will never attack him. Why? He is ramping to his ultimate. This means he is trying to get 3 creatures, that you have to remove. Just let him ramp and block it with the creature that would have otherwise died to Vraska.

Also, when are you going to attack into Vraska with his +1 active? with a 2/2? Nah, that's not a good idea.

3/3? Well, I rather just pressure my opponent's life total so Vraska has to spend 3 loyalty to kill my 3/3.

4/4? Well, if the +1 is active, I'm just running par on loyalty (4 damage versus the +1 and -3)

5/5? Well yeah, now we're talking. But do we rather have 5 damage to the dome AND force him to spend his -3 loyalty? Or do you want to just suicide your 5/5 clock against this 5 mana planeswalker.

The problem is that it costs 7 freaking loyalty to ult. A single lightning bolt puts Vraska out of contention because the loyalty drops so hard and you spend so long doing absolutely nothing to ramp it. This isn't Gideon that can force an opponent to attack into Gideon.

This card has really cool abilities but can too easily be ignored. 3 non-evasive, non-hexproof creatures on turn infinite really don't make this card good enough.

The pros? It's in the same colors as Pernicious Deed and some good synergy there. It can deal with Planeswalkers (But hey, Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse and Dreadbore can too! Doesn't mean you should run it), and it protects itself like a king (or queen)!

What's not to like? Well, there is hardly any board impact except for a slow, 1 time vindicate.

[Fizzeler]

If Vraska cost 4 and had 4 starting loyalty I'd be less on the fence. And if I were a designer those tokens would have deathtouch. I mean, they are killing a PLAYER. Why can't they kill a bear?

As for Legacy use: Veteran Explorer had become a real thing recently, so I can see her used in tandem with it because you'll be more likely to hit 5 mana in a normal game. I think this card is a card played for a while (6-12 months) in a few decks, but abandoned for other options.

Vraska seems good in Nic Fit, she removes problem creatures, her plus protects her and combined with Deed she can really hose people

[catmint]

Well bruizar.... The decks that play vraska gain control first and then play vraska. After that Vraska will help them to remain in control or to kill the opponent. Also the +1 of Lialiana does nothing if the opponent is hellbent (and sometimes hurts you)... still people tick up liliana because 2 of their counters are worth a card. In this case 3 counters are worth a much much better card.

Also "does nothing" is a strong word... Liliana +1 - in response snapcaster mage/vendilion clique. Vraska +1... flash in what you want... The "anti-creature effect only as a sorcery drawback" is not there.

You should also keep in mind that lingering souls is a big Problem for Walkers these days. Not so much for Vraska...

And if everything goes as planned and Vraska kills all the batterskulls, tokens, planeswalkers,... while the game progresses there is not a lot that stops 3 1/1 "I kill you tokens" on an empty board.

My guess: it is the first 5cc walker that will see play. Especially because 5 is considered cheap for a deck like Nic Fit and she can beautifuly join a threesome with Jace and Liliana.

[Offler]

When I compare this planeswalker to those 1 or 2 years ago... then this one seems to me extremely powerful.

[Barook]

The tokens have deathtouch.
Nope.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135302&stc=1&d=1346817949

[joven]

Is Vraska not just another Lux Cannon destroying a permanent every fourth turn?
Her advantages are that she comes into play charged and offers an ultimate that might usually win the game. Ok, and she is a bit harder to get rid off. On the other hand she is at higher CC and BG. And she can't destroy lands.



Slaughter Games
Thought Hemorrhage
Cranial Extraction

Yeah R&D is really creative in terms of red and Black cards. Again only overcosted & weak enchantments/spells and bad creatures in addition to a plain uninspired creature-only-keyword to ensure nothing fancy happens with the mana acceleration in those colors (any rituals)


You forgot Memoricide! :D



It just feels like R&D either can't design proper R/B cards or they don't even care.

It seems to me that no one in R&D likes those colors. It could be as simple as that.
R&D likes Blue and of course the creature-and-mana color Green. Red and Black are just necessary evil to them so to speak. :D

[kiblast]

Well bruizar.... The decks that play vraska gain control first and then play Vraska. After that Vraska will help them to remain in control or to kill the opponent. Also the +1 of Lialiana does nothing if the opponent is hellbent (and sometimes hurts you)... still people tick up liliana because 2 of their counters are worth a card. In this case 3 counters are worth a much much better card.

Also "does nothing" is a strong word... Liliana +1 - in response snapcaster mage/vendilion clique. Vraska +1... flash in what you want... The "anti-creature effect only as a sorcery drawback" is not there.

You should also keep in mind that lingering souls is a big Problem for Walkers these days. Not so much for Vraska...

And if everything goes as planned and Vraska kills all the batterskulls, tokens, planeswalkers,... while the game progresses there is not a lot that stops 3 1/1 "I kill you tokens" on an empty board.

My guess: it is the first 5cc walker that will see play. Especially because 5 is considered cheap for a deck like Nic Fit and she can beautifuly join a threesome with Jace and Liliana.

Lingering Souls a problem for Walkers? Considering that the only decks which play Walkers successfully, BUG control and UW control/ Countertop play things like Pernicious deed, EE and Terminus, in addition to 4-5 spot removals md,I wouldn't say that Souls is much of a big deal, unless seen in more than 2 copies. I mean, surely you need to deal with the tokens, but it's not that hard...
Honestly I'd rather run Liliana Vess than Vraska in BUG control. Don't know about Nic Fit, but I guess that deck has no problem in dealing with permanents considering that it plays 2-3 Maelstrom Pulse, 1-2 Witness and 4 GSZ to find them. And it plays Cabal Therapy and different types of pointed discard. At the same time it's very good at dealing with creatures because of Deeds, spot Removals, Damnation, etc. So unless you want to be the techy guy playing a 1of of a strange Planeswalker just for fun, you'd better run something else since Vraska doesn't add anything relevant to the deck. In BUG / Landeed there is no space for such a bad PW, you already play 4 JTMS and 2 Liliana...
I'm fully with Bruizar on this.

Ps: GL with resolving your cc5 spell that doesn't win the game on the spot when Goblins is a DTB, Thresh is a DTB and Merfolk is coming back. No seriously good luck!

[catmint]

Lux cannon comes into play and is doing nothing for 3 turns, while Vriska has an immediate impact. And how does lux cannon kill your opponent?
you are probably trolling anyway right? :mad:

Edit: @Kiblast.
As you say: Lingering Souls has to be dealt with by the different options these powerful control decks have. Vriska deals mostly by themselves with souls.
Just because control decks already have very good ways of dealing with permanents, does not mean that it could not use more. The decks you need to deal with are also constantly getting better tools (Krenko, Thalia, new Lord of Atlantis - just to name a view). I would also not underestimate the utility of "non land-vindicate". These days you see BG decks running maelstrom pulse to deal with all kinds of stuff in the late game.

I might be overestimating Vraska's impact on legacy (anyway the decks that could use her are not exaclty very popular right now), but calling her a bad walker is an insult to her. With Liliana Vess you can vampiric tutor for the deed and then get her killed in the next turn. She has no real means to defend herself and thus does not make the cut in my opinion. Also concerning wincondition Vraska is pretty unique and very powerful! It even says "your opponent looses the game" on the card.

[Barook]

It seems to me that no one in R&D likes those colors. It could be as simple as that.
R&D likes Blue and of course the creature-and-mana color Green. Red and Black are just necessary evil to them so to speak. :D
Might be true in these days where Red is simply "that funny color with direct damage (and a bit of artifact destruction)".

One thing I noticed is that Red and Black didn't catch up in the creature power creep. Especially Black had nice creatures with a drawback in the past. Remember when Carnophage was a creature ahead of the power curve? Nowadays, it would need to be a 3/3 to compete. Same goes with other creatures like Phyrexian Negator.

What black creatures are nowadays playable without being fringe cases? Bob and Tombstalker? (Griselbrand isn't black since it's CC is normally :r:/:2::u:)

[kiblast]

Ok, let's analyze the immediate impact of Vraska:

If you are behind on board position:
-2 and let's hope that a turn 5 Maesltrom Pulse subject to Stifle will help me somehow ( HINT: It won't)
or +1 and opponent simply goes to the dome and you lose anyway.

If you are ahead:
+1 Useless ability that doesn't help you sealing the game.For reference, see Jace's Fateseal and Elspeth built-in token and beatdown generator.
-2 Maybe this cc5 Malestrom Pulse will put you even more ahead, but then you need 2 turns more to win with a PW that doesn't protect itself nor it puts opponent on a clock.
-7 Cool finisher, but weak to spot removal+ Snapcaster Mage and to mass removal.

[catmint]

Ok, let's analyze the immediate impact of Vraska:

If you are behind on board position:
-2 and let's hope that a turn 5 Maesltrom Pulse subject to Stifle will help me somehow ( HINT: It won't)
or +1 and opponent simply goes to the dome and you lose anyway.
Yeah and Jace is also such a bad plaeswalker. Turn 4, unsummon subject you stifle and with a low life total the opponent goes to the dome and you die. As discussed control decks try to get ahead on board first and then play a walker. Her immediate impact on the board is more powerful and versatile than Jace's, Lilianas and Elspeths. Just compare the spells: diabolic edict, "pseudo maelstorm pulse", unsommon, or whatever spell puts a 1/1 soldier into play.



If you are ahead:
+1 Useless ability that doesn't help you sealing the game.For reference, see Jace's Fateseal and Elspeth built-in token and beatdown generator.
-2 Maybe this cc5 Malestrom Pulse will put you even more ahead, but then you need 2 turns more to win with a PW that doesn't protect itself nor it puts opponent on a clock.
-7 Cool finisher, but weak to spot removal+ Snapcaster Mage and to mass removal.
Jaces +1 is much better of controlling the game, but you trade that off for a much faster kill and a much more versatile -3 dealing with a lot of the things the opponent can topdeck. And how can you say a PW that doesn't protect itself... Vraska has "protect myself" written all over her. Just think about what the best topdecks in the control mirror and how she will handle them: Stoneforge Mystic, Lingering Souls, Batterskull, "random non hexproof" "random hexproof creature with power < 5", OTHER PLAINSWALKERS.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree with kiblast that Vraska isn't Legacy-playable. Jace is already a good finisher for control, and if you want to kill them faster, Elspeth is right behind him. Hell, Gideon has the same price tag, actually does something when you're behind, is probably a three-turn clock (same as Vraska), and isn't playable.

When you're behind, Vraska's +1 is a complete blank. It incentivizes the opponent to make you even more behind by attacking you instead of her. That's terrible.

You can -3 her, though. Then you paid five mana for a Maelstrom Pulse + distracting an attacker for a turn, and Pulse is already weak at three mana.

When you ultimate her (two turns after casting her), you still have to keep the Assassins alive for a turn, then make sure they connect. Oh, and you can't use Deed to clear out blockers once you have Assassins. Also, you might want some counters in hand, in case they have removal or Stifle.

The fact that Vraska's +1 does actual nothing, for a five-mana price tag, makes her not good enough for this format. What kind of serious Legacy control deck wants to run a durdle five mana planeswalker when there are already plenty of better ones? Don't be distracted by her ultimate: she's not made for this format.

[bruizar]

if the +1 did anything in addition to protecting herself, the card would be much more playable. Right now you don't even want to -3 with her everytime, because you will just lose Vraska in the process. But her +1 protection does nothing. Even a simple look at target players hand, or a gain 2 life would have been great (compared to nothing). A miniscule impact on the game while ALSO protecting herself would have come a long way in the design of the card.

Let's look at Jace's unsummon. It requires your opponent to REINVEST mana and summoning sickness while at the same time, protecting Jace from dying.

Varska is a durdlewalker and I advice everybody to not spend money on her if your plan is to play legacy with her.

[Amon Amarth]

I think Vraska is pretty freaking awesome. To make up for her weakness against aggro swarm decks she is the same color as Pernicious Deed. If her +1 "does nothing" then you win the game. If they can't deal with her then they likely just lose to her ultimate.

[bruizar]

If her +1 "does nothing" then you win the game.

Please explain.

[bondfan]

I feel in Nic-Fit, answers to Jace are always good. The +1 ability isn't very live against decks like Miracles but exiling Jace then killing their germ token should pull you back into the game.

[catmint]

I agree with kiblast that Vraska isn't Legacy-playable. Jace is already a good finisher for control, and if you want to kill them faster, Elspeth is right behind him. Hell, Gideon has the same price tag, actually does something when you're behind, is probably a three-turn clock (same as Vraska), and isn't playable.
Both Plainsalkers you mentioned are whited. Not exaclty a color BUG control can use. Gideon is also a powerful walker, but not really needed in the control decks we know. BUG on the other hand has a gap in planeswalker based winconditions which Vraska fills in while supporting the overall "board control" strategy.



When you're behind, Vraska's +1 is a complete blank. It incentivizes the opponent to make you even more behind by attacking you instead of her. That's terrible.

You can -3 her, though. Then you paid five mana for a Maelstrom Pulse + distracting an attacker for a turn, and Pulse is already weak at three mana.


If you evaluate a new walker this way, you have to do the same thing with Jace. When you are behind you can unsommon/brainstorm for 4 mana loosing Jace in the process (play a very overcosted spell) or you can fateseal (and get little value compared to "no value" out of vraskas +1), but still the opponent can attack you instead of him to fall even more behind.

Now you would argue against that by saying "Jace can then brainstorm to put back Terminus to wipe the board" and that is correct. But in the same way BUG will play a deed before to make her stick. What I want to say is you cannot evaluate a walker only on it's abilities, but you have to take into account which colors & decks it will be played and how good it fits this decks strategy.



When you ultimate her (two turns after casting her), you still have to keep the Assassins alive for a turn, then make sure they connect. Oh, and you can't use Deed to clear out blockers once you have Assassins. Also, you might want some counters in hand, in case they have removal or Stifle.

The fact that Vraska's +1 does actual nothing, for a five-mana price tag, makes her not good enough for this format. What kind of serious Legacy control deck wants to run a durdle five mana planeswalker when there are already plenty of better ones? Don't be distracted by her ultimate: she's not made for this format.

Not beeing able to deed ones the assasins are in play is a bad antisynergy that has to be considered. Sure you should not just cash in your walker for some tokens if you cannot protect them. But you should not be in a hurry since I cannot think of a lot the opponent can do to kill you once you are in control with her.

I also don't agree that her +1 is a complete blank. Look, if they are not attacking her you just pile up some maelstrom pulses or gain some scary tokens if applicable. But the +1 is very powerful versus snapcaster, vendilion clique and lingering souls. Not exactly cards played in strategys where your life total is attacked very heavily, but popular cards which are pretty good vs. plainswalkers.

[Star|Scream]

Please explain.

If her +1 isn't doing anything, (i.e. being left unchecked), you will be able to ultimate and kill the opponent.

If the +1 is doing something, (i.e. protecting herself by being a deterrent against attacking into her), you will be able to ultimate and kill the opponent.

Instead of comparing her to Jace, you need to look at her as a pulse plus a healing salve, that if unanswered can also win the game.

[Nihil Credo]

re: Vraska: I think the biggest problem with her is that her ultimate gets telegraphed three turns ahead at the bare minimum, giving your opponent quite a bit of time to prepare removal, blockers, or whatever (if their deck lets you ultimate in three turns they probably have a lot of digging, and viceversa if not). For five mana, it might be more reliable to bend the manabase to support Garruk Primal Hunter's mana cost than to bend the creature/removal suite to support Vraska's first and third abilities.


It seems to me that no one in R&D likes those colors. It could be as simple as that.
R&D likes Blue and of course the creature-and-mana color Green. Red and Black are just necessary evil to them so to speak. :D
Or that players like them too, unfortunately. MaRo posted this on a Tumblr answer:



We asked the players to self-identify their guilds on the planeswalker points site. Here’s the top four results:
1. Izzet
2. Azorius
3. Dimir
4. Simic
I think it’s safe to say that a lot of Magic players identify with blue.Hardly surprising that nerds would favour the nerd colour, but still that's a bit depressing.

[Koby]

Ya it's a bogus "market research" example. More akin to the chicken & the egg.

R&D makes Blue good stuff for years.
R&D asks players, "o hai guys, you can haz guilds?"
Everyone picks Blue.
R&D is reinforced that Blue is indeed the nutter butters, continues to make awesome Blue cards.

Let's try another example, with an audience of American sport spectators:
"What's your favorite sport?"
A: American football
B: Basketball
C: Baseball
D: Real football
E: Figure skating.

Looks like it would be overwhelming sports with balls in them. What a shocker!

[Aggro_zombies]

Ya it's a bogus "market research" example. More akin to the chicken & the egg.

R&D makes Blue good stuff for years.
R&D asks players, "o hai guys, you can haz guilds?"
Everyone picks Blue.
R&D is reinforced that Blue is indeed the nutter butters, continues to make awesome Blue cards.

Let's try another example, with an audience of American sport spectators:
"What's your favorite sport?"
A: American football
B: Basketball
C: Baseball
D: Real football
E: Figure skating.

Looks like it would be overwhelming sports with balls in them. What a shocker!
To be fair, it's not clear here that people are choosing these guilds because "zomg blue!" as opposed to opting for the flavors of the guilds. I chose Izzet because I liked their flavor, even though Golgari was my favorite guild mechanically in the first Ravnica.

[rufus]

If her +1 isn't doing anything, (i.e. being left unchecked), you will be able to ultimate and kill the opponent.

If the +1 is doing something, (i.e. protecting herself by being a deterrent against attacking into her), you will be able to ultimate and kill the opponent.

Instead of comparing her to Jace, you need to look at her as a pulse plus a healing salve, that if unanswered can also win the game.

If her +1 isn't doing anything, it's probably because your opponent is ignoring her all the way to the win.

Maybe I'm missing something important, but this card doesn't seem strong enough for any constructed format.

The ultimate is pretty slow and fragile, if you somehow drop the planeswalker on turn 1, it will be turn 4 before the ultimate wins you the game - three turns of activations, plus one for summoning sickness, and that assumes that the opponent doesn't have any way to block or wipe out three 0cc 1/1 token critters. Because loyalty counters build so slowly, an opponent can readily buy another several turns by running a creature into the +1 ability or bolting her if necessary.

I think the best plausible scenario for this card is one where the second ability gets activated twice. She hits the table and wipes out a threat, +1's on the following turn, and then suicides into a 2-for-1. Without that ability, it takes 3-4 turns for her to make any difference, and, really, a 5 cc card in legacy must have an immediate effect on the game state - Ad Nauseam,Dream Halls,Demigod of Revenge.

[xeraseth]

If her +1 isn't doing anything, it's probably because your opponent is ignoring her all the way to the win.

Maybe I'm missing something important, but this card doesn't seem strong enough for any constructed format.

The ultimate is pretty slow and fragile, if you somehow drop the planeswalker on turn 1, it will be turn 4 before the ultimate wins you the game - three turns of activations, plus one for summoning sickness, and that assumes that the opponent doesn't have any way to block or wipe out three 0cc 1/1 token critters. Because loyalty counters build so slowly, an opponent can readily buy another several turns by running a creature into the +1 ability or bolting her if necessary.

I think the best plausible scenario for this card is one where the second ability gets activated twice. She hits the table and wipes out a threat, +1's on the following turn, and then suicides into a 2-for-1. Without that ability, it takes 3-4 turns for her to make any difference, and, really, a 5 cc card in legacy must have an immediate effect on the game state - Ad Nauseam,Dream Halls,Demigod of Revenge.
Oooh Demigod, that brings back fond memories of All in Red...

She is a Maelstorm Pulse+. Against aggro decks if you are plusing her then they are just attacking you. If you use her as a Pulse they will kill her (assuming they have dudes out). If they don't have dudes out then you are just saving up Pulses, which I think is what she is best at. I think trying to win with her Ult is stupid most of the time. Trying to hit with 1/1s that have no evasion is just silly. Just keep her loyalty up to use her as a Pulse.

She seems sweet in BUG control against UW Miracles. You have deed for their angels, and this can sit there plucking off any sort of other path to victory they may have.

My guess is she might be a one of MD or a decent SB card for slow grindy decks (BUG Control and Nic Fit.

[boneclub24]

To be fair, it's not clear here that people are choosing these guilds because "zomg blue!" as opposed to opting for the flavors of the guilds. I chose Izzet because I liked their flavor, even though Golgari was my favorite guild mechanically in the first Ravnica.

Yeah. Rakdos was my favorite guild for the flavour (who doesn't like a bunch of satanists eagerly awaiting their turn to be sacrificed?), but I enjoyed the mechanics of the Orzhov more.

[Aggro_zombies]

Oooh Demigod, that brings back fond memories of All in Red...

She is a Maelstorm Pulse+. Against aggro decks if you are plusing her then they are just attacking you. If you use her as a Pulse they will kill her (assuming they have dudes out). If they don't have dudes out then you are just saving up Pulses, which I think is what she is best at. I think trying to win with her Ult is stupid most of the time. Trying to hit with 1/1s that have no evasion is just silly. Just keep her loyalty up to use her as a Pulse.

She seems sweet in BUG control against UW Miracles. You have deed for their angels, and this can sit there plucking off any sort of other path to victory they may have.

My guess is she might be a one of MD or a decent SB card for slow grindy decks (BUG Control and Nic Fit.
I feel like Lilianna of the Veil is better vs. other control decks. Ripping the cards out of their hands leaves them basically just dead to you, and you can easily set it up so you're holding a counter for any off-the-top miracles. Once they're out of cards, you can win with Jace or manlands or whatever else easily.

Hell, since you're BUG, you can break Lili's symmetry with LftL and have infinite Wastelands available.

I'm just not seeing her being good in this format. Emo Jace costs the same and is actually better vs. control because it's harder to interact with the milling than with a bunch of 1/1s, and you can +1 him for actual value if you need to.

[Nihil Credo]

My guess is she might be a one of MD or a decent SB card for slow grindy decks (BUG Control and Nic Fit.I think that if you really want a PW in those colours that takes forever to gain some CA, and you can't reliably pay for Garruk Primal Hunter, you might as well play Garruk Relentless - I think a few Nic Fit lists have , actually. If there's no threat you Eladamri's Call every other turn (hopefully you have a GSZ package to look for), if there is you just bump out wolf blockers like a crappy Elspeth.

(And realistically, you should just do some recursion shit because you're in freaking BUG, that's the colour combination that has the least need to beg the X-Men for some card advantage. Stronghold, Loam, Recurring, Genesis, Worm Harvest, whatever.)

[ScatmanX]

D: Real football
So true.

[Lemnear]

Slaughter Games
Thought Hemorrhage
Cranial Extraction



Edit: Forgot Lobotomy

Basically 4 times the same 4cc card with Lil' twists. Even more hilarious than Lightning Bolt and his clones

[Barook]

Edit: Forgot Lobotomy

Basically 4 times the same 4cc card with Lil' twists. Even more hilarious than Lightning Bolt and his clones
Lobotomy is a different breed of card since it requires the target to be in hand.

What you're looking for is Memoricide.

[SpikeyMikey]

R&D makes Blue good stuff for years.
R&D asks players, "o hai guys, you can haz guilds?"
Everyone picks Blue.
R&D is reinforced that Blue is indeed the nutter butters, continues to make awesome Blue cards.

This. I'm more of a R/B or G/B player. But for the most part, those colors suck and those combinations in particular suck. This idea that creatures needed to be powercreeped is stupid. The game was well balanced a dozen years ago. Today, it's unbalanced. Strengthen the things that made red and black good. I want to see cheap disruption. I want to see creatures that make the creatures of every other color cry. Why? Because red can't deal with enchantments and black can't deal with enchantments or artifacts. So they need to be good at dealing with everything else and they need to be able to keep problem cards from hitting play. I want to see a new Spinning Darkness that does 5 damage and can go to creatures or players. I want to see a new riff on Price of Glory or Scald. I want to see a 3 or 4 mana red planeswalker who's + ability is an Orcish Oriflamme. I want Dark Ritual reprinted. I want to see a black Spelljack for 1B where you pay life equal to the targeted spell's CMC. I want a gray ogre with first strike that Gambles whenever it deals combat damage.

[Guy I Don't Know]

This. I'm more of a R/B or G/B player. But for the most part, those colors suck and those combinations in particular suck. This idea that creatures needed to be powercreeped is stupid. The game was well balanced a dozen years ago. Today, it's unbalanced. Strengthen the things that made red and black good. I want to see cheap disruption. I want to see creatures that make the creatures of every other color cry. Why? Because red can't deal with enchantments and black can't deal with enchantments or artifacts. So they need to be good at dealing with everything else and they need to be able to keep problem cards from hitting play. I want to see a new Spinning Darkness that does 5 damage and can go to creatures or players. I want to see a new riff on Price of Glory or Scald. I want to see a 3 or 4 mana red planeswalker who's + ability is an Orcish Oriflamme. I want Dark Ritual reprinted. I want to see a black Spelljack for 1B where you pay life equal to the targeted spell's CMC. I want a gray ogre with first strike that Gambles whenever it deals combat damage.

R/B is my favorite color combination if it was playable. I do not get why black has the worse removal in legacy and all of its best cards have to be anti synergistic (tombstalker and dark confidant) while red has three playable noncombo/nongoblin cards(pyroblast, lightning bolt, grim lavamancer). Can't they make good cards in the colors? I am thinking:

Forced Labor 1BR
Sorcery
Untapped target creature and gain control of it until end of turn. It gains haste. At end of turn each player sacrifices a creature.

[SpikeyMikey]

Interesting distinction between -X/-X spells and simple "Destroy" or "Exile" effects. The key is state-based effects aren't checked under the spell is done resolving, and the last action a card takes when it's on the stack is to go to the correct zone. Creatures try to go to the battlefield, instants/sorceries try to go to the graveyard; Darkblast or Lightning Bolt wouldn't actually kill the creature until SBEs are checked, so there's no chance for Dryad Militant to die before such a spell tries to hit the bin, but can't and gets exiled.

Honestly I do not think that this spell is going to ruin anyone's graveyard-based strategy. It doesn't really matter how many Grafdigger's Cages or Dryad Militants get printed, because those cards are fair. They cost mana and they will never win the game just by being cast. They hang around and wait to get answered. Meanwhile a combo player just digs for the answer, while the aggro player is busy NOT leading with their best beaters. It gives new kids that play non-Maverick GW Beats a false sense of security, and they might steal a game with it, but I don't think it's going to shut down everything ever.

It doesn't take much, though. Maverick can fight combo because of the hate bears. Because you're packing Mom and Thalia and Teeg and yada yada.

I played Zoo in Minneapolis this last weekend. With blue, but post-board my counter base was a whopping 3 Pierce, 3 REB (technically 2 Pyro and a REB, based on availability). But if you've got a decent clock, all it takes is 1 or 2 pieces of disruption. I beat omniscience first round because I had the REB in G2. That was all it took, I stopped a turn 2 SnT and killed him on turn 4. Would've beat storm if I'd have been a little bit better player and Pierced the LED. But out of 5 combo decks I faced on the day, I managed to take at least 1 game from each of them. A little bit more is all I need to consistently beat combo. I don't know whether or not I want to play with this little hate lion, but things like this are what makes aggro capable of beating combo. At least, until aggro becomes good enough against the current crop of combo that people stop playing resilient combo for all-in combo like SI or Belcher. Because there, the only things that will save you are going first or having FoW.

[Malchar]

People who play magic tend to have a personality that corresponds to "blue". Therefore, most of the people who take the quiz and then pick the corresponding guild will end up in blue. In addition to this, you also have all the people who pick blue because they suspect that it will be the best.

Total players by color:
White 8,901
Blue 14,181
Black 8,023
Red 9,369
Green 6,995

Edit:
Mean = 9493.8
Standard deviation = 2479.68

Blue is 1.9 standard deviations from the mean. Green is 1.0 s.d.'s from the mean.

[Tammit67]

Total players by color:
White 8,901
Blue 14,181
Black 8,023
Red 9,369
Green 6,995

Average 9,493.8
Standard deviation 4895.34
Range of one standard deviation (4598.46, 14389.14)

Uh... How did you calculate that standard deviation?

[Koby]

Uh... How did you calculate that standard deviation?

White 8,901
Blue 14,181
Black 8,023
Red 9,369
Green 6,995

Avg = 8893.8
Deviations: 7.2, 5287.2, -870.8, 475.2, -1898.8
Sum of squares of deviations: 32544084.8
Divide by N: 6508817.0
Root = STD DEV = 2551.2

Putting blue at 2.1 STD DEV's away, which is well beyond "bell curve".

[Telperion]

Abrupt Decay
BG
instant
This can't be countered by spell or abilities
Destroy target nonland permanent with CMC <= 3


Finally a real answer to counterbalance.

[Aggro_zombies]

Abrupt Decay
BG
instant
This can't be countered by spell or abilities
Destroy target nonland permanent with CMC <= 3


Finally a real answer to counterbalance.
Oh wow.

Oh wow.

About the most important thing it can't kill are Jace, Batterskull, and some combo cards. But damn. This is pretty hot.

[whienot]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135340&d=1346904113

Now there's a middle finger to Merfolk. I'm digging this can't be countered cycle.

[Stall_19]

So an uncountable smother than can hit other non land permanents and an uncounterable day of judgment were spoiled today. Not too shabby.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135341&d=1346904113

Looks like G/B has a new staple.

[Telperion]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135341&d=1346904113

Looks like G/B has a new staple.

You mean storm combo lulz. This can answer hate bears, chalice, and counterbalance alike.

[RJM]

I don't even... wow.

Side note, I guess I like Misdirection more than ever now too.

[Aggro_zombies]

I feel like this card puts BG on the map as a legitimate (read: not fringe) color pairing now. Between this and Lotleth Troll, we may be getting close to a seriously competitive Jund aggro or BG midrange deck.

EDIT: Let me elaborate. The biggest problems with BG over, say, WG, have been a lack of counterparts to (1) StP and (2) Knight of the Reliquary. This is reasonably close to being the former, since having a Disenchant tacked on and being uncounterable makes up quite a bit for losing the ability to hit every creature and costing one. Now we need something for number two: an immediately beefy creature that requires little work to get big and has a useful ability, ideal for punching through damage in the midgame.

[Barook]

I feel like this card puts BG on the map as a legitimate (read: not fringe) color pairing now. Between this and Lotleth Troll, we may be getting close to a seriously competitive Jund aggro or BG midrange deck.
BG Madness, maybe?

Lotleth Troll is also a Zombie, so there might be interesting interactions between it, Rootwalla, Gravecrawler and Vengevine.

[joemauer]

I feel like this card puts BG on the map as a legitimate (read: not fringe) color pairing now. Between this and Lotleth Troll, we may be getting close to a seriously competitive Jund aggro or BG midrange deck.

EDIT: Let me elaborate. The biggest problems with BG over, say, WG, have been a lack of counterparts to (1) StP and (2) Knight of the Reliquary. This is reasonably close to being the former, since having a Disenchant tacked on and being uncounterable makes up quite a bit for losing the ability to hit every creature and costing one. Now we need something for number two: an immediately beefy creature that requires little work to get big and has a useful ability, ideal for punching through damage in the midgame.

Doesn't green have Tarmogofy and Scavenging Ooze?


I'm glad they finally gave B&G some love. Maelstrom Pulse is the only worthwhile card in that color combination since Invasion block.

I hope black and red gets some love too.

[Aggro_zombies]

Doesn't green have Tarmogofy and Scavenging Ooze?
GW and BG both get Ooze and Goyf, but GW gets Pridemage and Knight on top of that while BG has...Putrid Leech? Pretty much nothing. That's why it was always just better to be GWx: you could run all the good creatures instead of just half of them.

If BG gets a good Knight analogue, that would seriously push that color combination. It would be sweet to see a Maverick-like BG deck with Bob and discard as disruption, backed with Abrupt Decay and some sort of Golgari KotR.

EDIT: @ Barook: the problem with Madness is that most of the cards with that mechanic are various flavors of bad. Basking Rootwalla was only playable last time around because Survival ensured you could use him to make a large number of Vengevines, not because a free 1/1 with a potential pump is actually worthwhile. I could see a Zombie deck with Gravecrawler and Bloodghast, but then you might be straying too far into Dredge's territory, and I wouldn't want to be Dredge-But-Worse.

[Deviruchi]

@Abrupt Decay: Very nice gem for Junk and combo. Propably it would be a chase card for a few formats.

@Supreme Verdict: just wow. Now control can stop the rush without even thinking about Daze or Spell Pierce. I think that it can push U/W even higher in the metagame.

[sdematt]

I'm pretty excited, as you could expect, about Abrupt Decay. Not hitting Jace is a big deal, but it just means you run a split of some kind. I'm excited.

Supreme seems a bit ridic, but not necessarily bad ridiculous, just VERY good. That cards nails Merfolk to the wall, but is it better than Terminus in that deck? Maybe, maybe not, but I would run it in a non-Miracles grindy control deck in a heartbeat. No Daze for you!

-Matt

[joemauer]

I see what you are getting at now, aggro zombies.

Eva green was a deck once. Cards like Dark Confidant, Deed, Tombstalker, and discard are all good cards. Perhaps this new card will help revitalize it?

[Lord Seth]

You mean storm combo lulz. This can answer hate bears, chalice, and counterbalance alike.Would this really fit into Storm? It doesn't seem to play Green much.

[menace13]

Abrupt Decay is a very good card. I don't think anyone except maybe Counterbalance players can complain on this one.

[Malchar]

Would this really fit into Storm? It doesn't seem to play Green much.

They have splashed for xantid swarm in the past.

[Telperion]

Would this really fit into Storm? It doesn't seem to play Green much.

This card solves so many problems, I predict it will be worth splashing in the decks there were already running seas. Most storm decks are packing 2-3 bounce spells which seems largely inferior unless you're fighting Leyline of Sanctity or mom+hatebear.

[bruizar]

So my alpha wrath of god isn't going to see play in any deck other than mono white control (thats not even a real deck).

And my vindicates just got trashed for any WGB deck.

Love collecting foils and rarities...

Also, RUG is going to have major issues fighting through Abrupt. Tempo counters, well, they just got trumped. Being able to terminate every creature besides threshold mongoose is pretty good I hear. Clock no more.

[Lemnear]

A reason Storm runs bounce over maelstrom pulse, krosan grip and the like is because of the colors, mana cost (ad nauseam) and it's functionality with burning wish as tutorable solution.

Having 1RGB in pool to wish for Decay seems a barrier, requiring to Play many Rainbow-Lands in a World of Wasteland (lol), Not to speak of daze, pierce for wish. If you board these in it have to compete vs. Chain of vapor/ wipe away and tbh unless you Play against counterbalance or chalice I fear this card doesn't get the spot. Will be tested non the less because of potential

Opposite with Verdict. The Main Problem with Wrath was daze and other soft-Counters and i'm very appealed by the fact that this pitches to FoW unlike any similar card but comes with a strong color fix for that ability. It has another downside vs Mavericks and their Thalia making this card maybe to expensive to come online in time. I feel that u/w Control could give this the nod over terminus unless it already plays SDT (aka counterbalance) because it doesn't require setup-cards, doen't have to fear increased costs outside Thalia (pierce, daze the terminus after stacking with top -> costing 4 mana too) and at least pitches vs. Combo decks

[Koby]

Wow! Supreme Verdict has Amazing!!*

<Can be pitched to FOW and be cast with Islands>

Had to mention it.

[ivanpei]

Wow! Supreme Verdict has Amazing!!*

<Can be pitched to FOW and be cast with Islands>

Had to mention it.

Being pitchable to force is a very big deal. Against combo, where removal is traditionally useless, this. Card can at least pitch to force ala jace.

But still, terminus is better, usually a t4 wrath is too slow. That's assuming you hit all your land drops and don't see wastes. Terminus is still much much better in uw control because it can come down fast enough.

However in traditional control or Stoneblade, wow, just wow. That card is sick.

[Offler]

I am really getting scared about all those "cant be countered" cards.

Basically saying that no form of permanent based control is going to be supported in the future, BUT...

white/blue uncounterable "wrath of god"? OMG... My Geist of Saint traft will have this new addition for sure :D

[Machahiko]

A reason Storm runs bounce over maelstrom pulse, krosan grip and the like is because of the colors, mana cost (ad nauseam) and it's functionality with burning wish as tutorable solution.

Having 1RGB in pool to wish for Decay seems a barrier, requiring to Play many Rainbow-Lands in a World of Wasteland (lol), Not to speak of daze, pierce for wish. If you board these in it have to compete vs. Chain of vapor/ wipe away and tbh unless you Play against counterbalance or chalice I fear this card doesn't get the spot. Will be tested non the less because of potential

Burning Wish allows you only to go get sorceries, so this new card and pretty much all the bounce spells you just listed cannot be fetched with Burning Wish. TES already runs city of brass & gemstone mine - I would imagine that this new card would be the bounce spell of choice from now on. It's only 2 mana (even though green mana is awkward), instant and it cannot be countered. Too bad that this card doesn't really do anything against mother of runes + hatebear, but neither do most of the other bounce/kill spells.

I would imagine that Krosan Grip would be good sideboard card, but it only hits enchantments and artifacts, has awkward mana requirements when compared to the split second bounce spell. The bounce spell hits everything and is easier to cast so I don't see any reason why to play Krosan Grip. Maelstrom Pulse is a sorcery and takes 3 mana. It would be nice effect, but first you would have to draw it or burning wish for it. After using it your opponent could just play another hatebear and you'd be back to square one.

I for one find a lot of potential in this new spell. It's a shame that it doesn't hit leyline of sanctity.

[catmint]

Love Abrubt Decay. Being uncouterable adds a lot to the format imo. Just very strong versus Merfolk, RUG & UW. Don't think it is going to be an "auto 4 of" like STP is for every deck that support those colours though.

[ivanpei]

Love Abrubt Decay. Being uncouterable adds a lot to the format imo. Just very strong versus Merfolk, RUG & UW. Don't think it is going to be an "auto 4 of" like STP is for every deck that support those colours though.

Costing 2 is a big deal. I'd wager that most will play a split of decay and a 1cc removal spell like dismember/ghastly demise. It's a very solid card and will be played as a 2-3 off in anything gb.

[catmint]

Agree... Costing 2 is less a consideration for daze, pierce obviously, but you have to reliably kill a mother or a lackey on the draw, hence need a critical amout of 1 CMC removal. Also with all the excitment about beeing uncounterable ... it still takes 3 mana to kill a thalia, so I also think of it as a 2-3 off.

[T-101]

Man, that Decay is just so saucy. While the standard for creature kill is 1 mana (Bolt, Swords, Dismember), I really think the versatility and reliability makes this one worth it (provided you are commited to B/G). The double color means only a few decks can make use of it, but jeez... this power contained in a 2 mana instant... wow.

The WoG also has me interested. A 4 mana Wrath is so rare outside of WoG itself, and the upsides are enormous (already has a natural home to play in, FoW pitchable, Dazeproof). Terminus is still probably better due to speed, but this is definitely worthy of serious testing.

[kwis]

One says Can't be Countered and the other says Can't be Countered by spells or abilities. Not really sure they they chose to use two different terminologies there. Does it have to do with one being targeted and the other being global?

Loving Decay already

Chalice
Counterbalance
Jitte
Swords
Hatebears
Goyf
Ooze
KotR

[DLifshitz]

Does it have to do with one being targeted and the other being global?

Yes, that's right. If Abrupt Decay's target has become illegal by the time it resolves, it gets countered by the game rules. See http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Fizzle

[Tinefol]

The thing I'm worried about, would they now print any counters in this set at all? I mean, since they largely make cards for Standard, what all this uncounterable hate is for, if the only counters you can run are Dissipate, Rewind and Negate?

[Final Fortune]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135341&d=1346904113

Looks like G/B has a new staple.

Tombstalker is looking better and better these days, oh Team America ...

[csy]

Power creep has to now have a counter that removes a spell from the stack for 2!

[Vacrix]

BUG Tempo is gonna looove Snapcasting Abrupt Decay. 2 mana creature removal? No problem, it also gets rid of Counterbalance, through Counterbalance, and when you Snapcast Decay, its dodging Spell Pierce. Crazy card, one of the best 2 mana spells they've printed in a WHILE. I think that even though this will be a good card to Snapcast, Nic Fit is going to want it as well, though the number of copies I'm unsure about.

Also, hows THAT for some otha-coluh-lovin? Not just this card as well. The 4 mana uncounterable WOG seems ok though. But can you Cursecatcher this card? Cause I know it 'can't be countered' but why did they print Abrupt Decay to read 'spells or abilities'? If Cursecatcher can't counter it (pretty sure you can't) then this would be a really nice answer to Merfolk in UW Miracles, which seems like it would get stomped by Folk otherwise.


Is it just me or is red not getting any love in this set?

[menace13]

The thing I'm worried about, would they now print any counters in this set at all? I mean, since they largely make cards for Standard, what all this uncounterable hate is for, if the only counters you can run are Dissipate, Rewind and Negate?

I found an art spoiler for the set on Mtgsally and think the finger wagging picture is Remand. Could be a stupid reflect spell, but I hope it's a counterspell and Remand was in Ravnica so im not totally crazy.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6066501/facebookart.html

[catmint]

This card does not help Tombastalker. The demon suffers from the problem of beeing expensive and therefore often gets traded badly vs. Swords or bounce loosing tempo. The card does also not really fit the tempo plan costing 2 mana. Decay is much better in a controlling or midrangy shell.

[Aernil]

I assume the "by spells and ablilities" clause in Decay is there to make it clear it can be countered upon resolution due to illegal target.

I think Decay is incredible, as there isn't much it can't hit.
And being able to just ignore counters is even better.
I assume Team America will be played a lot more than it is now.

[dontbiteitholmes]

All I can say about this set so far is holy shit RTR is going to turn cube draft upside down.

[Barook]

Power creep has to now have a counter that removes a spell from the stack for 2!
Isn't exactly such a counterspell (though more expensive than 2) planned for Azorius this time around after they missed it the last time? I remember something like that.

[Gheizen64]

Power creep has to now have a counter that removes a spell from the stack for 2!

I'm a expecting a

Purge UW
Instant
Exile target spell

Seems like the most obvious design ever.

Loving the new BG removal spell. Good multicolored cards push new decks, ad BG is sort of underrepresented right now. Too bad RB got the worst of the "can't be countered" spells, but i guess Maro will say it is in fact the best spell because of some stupid reason.

Amazing wrath with Amazing! Damn you Koby you stole my Line :frown:

[Barook]

I'm a expecting a

Purge UW
Instant
Exile target spell

Seems like the most obvious design ever.
Except the mana cost is going to be :w::u::u:. They don't print unconditional hard counters at 2 mana anymore.

[Rizso]

BUG Tempo is gonna looove Snapcasting Abrupt Decay. 2 mana creature removal? No problem, it also gets rid of Counterbalance, through Counterbalance, and when you Snapcast Decay, its dodging Spell Pierce. Crazy card, one of the best 2 mana spells they've printed in a WHILE. I think that even though this will be a good card to Snapcast, Nic Fit is going to want it as well, though the number of copies I'm unsure about.

Also, hows THAT for some otha-coluh-lovin? Not just this card as well. The 4 mana uncounterable WOG seems ok though. But can you Cursecatcher this card? Cause I know it 'can't be countered' but why did they print Abrupt Decay to read 'spells or abilities'? If Cursecatcher can't counter it (pretty sure you can't) then this would be a really nice answer to Merfolk in UW Miracles, which seems like it would get stomped by Folk otherwise.


Is it just me or is red not getting any love in this set?

Red is geting a few gems, Dreadbore, slaughtergame, Rakdos's Return, Izzet Charm, Mizzium Mortars are all pretty solid redcards maybe not for legacy but they can and will make a diffrence in modern and standard.

[Barook]

Rakdos's Return
But that card is terrible, both in design and powerlevel.

[Rizso]

Unlike other discard x spells this one can kill planeswalkers / the player as well making them discard lots of cards.

[joven]

Am I the only one who is disappointed to see Abrupt Decay?
I think "can't be countered" is bad design. It ruins the concept of counterspells. In the end why would anyone put counterspells in his deck when more and more relevant cards will be uncounterable??
I see WoTC is trying to weaken Blue. That might be ok given its dominant position, but why in this ugly manner?
Abrupt Decay smells to me a little bit like Mental Misstep. Good thing that it isn't colorless.

[Rizso]

Abrupt Decay is awesome imo. Counters are bit to much a catch all compared to other colors that has to rely on. Other colors needs diffrent cards for diffrent cardtypes, something hardcounters like fow doesnt care much about. IMO Abrupt Decay is nowhere even close to mental misstep, the card does need a color comitment to at least 2 colors. Also in a more rare color combination for legacy. Cards that cant be countered means blue decks have to diversify their removal suits and cant just live of their counters.

[catmint]

Why should a "counterspell" be an "unconditional" answer to "everything". I think that is the wrong concept of a counterspell. Counterspells should be a generic answer to most of the things but if people are willing to invest resources (more expensive spells with Split second, Thrun the last troll instead of Tarmogoyf,...) or commit to certain colors there should be some uncounterable spells.

But I am not worried about counterspells beeing not good enough in legacy.
Not at all... :tongue:

[Darkenslight]

And the Scavenge dude everyone wanted is here:

Splinterhead {B/G}
Creature - Plant Zombie
Scavenge 0
1/1

Seems like a decent addition to Dredge variants.

[Maëlig]

Seems like a decent addition to Dredge variants.

Sorry what? Completely unplayable in legacy, methinks.

[Gui]

And the Scavenge dude everyone wanted is here:

Splinterhead {B/G}
Creature - Plant Zombie
Scavenge 0
1/1

Seems like a decent addition to Dredge variants.

Don't think so. Takes space, doesn't solve Dredge's problem (graveyard hate)... Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't look that strong.

[Offler]

Thinking of alternative for Countertop locks i recalled about other cards which do not counter.

Venser, Shaper savant
Mindbreak trap
Time Stop
Misdirection/Divert/Deflection
Commandeer

Most of them with exception of Venser and Misdirection have been quite overlooked - even in present Commander format.

But when speaking of countertop - there is one card I considered to be too much chaotic. Psychic Battle. Funny as new cards can refresh my old knowledge.

Maybe not only "exile spell" cards, but also redirecting cards will be present.

[(nameless one)]

And the Scavenge dude everyone wanted is here:

Splinterhead {B/G}
Creature - Plant Zombie
Scavenge 0
1/1

Seems like a decent addition to Dredge variants.

The question is what do you remove in Dredge for this to improve the deck?

I see it more in Madness, if it actually makes an impact in Legacy. It would have been really good if you can Scavenge anytime ala instant.

[catmint]

Scavenge as an instant would have been awesome. I am talking limited here. Would have been ok to have some overcosted "combat tricks" / pump effects in your yard. But instant scavenge for 0 would be unbalanced as an uncommon. But the mechanic will also be fun in limited as a sorcery.

Scavenge in constructed: :really:

[Nihil Credo]

Scavenge in constructed: :really:
I wouldn't dismiss it so fast. It reminds me of Moldervine Cloak, which didn't exactly look hot but turned out to be a Standard all-star - and that thing didn't give you card advantage.

A permanent +3/+3 or +5/+5 is not anything to sneeze at in anything south of Modern. When you add that Lothleth Troll is basically the perfect Scavenge platform...

[catmint]

True: Surely depends if it is on a good contructed card to begin with. I don't know anything about Standard or Modern. I just play limited and legacy, so no idea if its good there.

[FieryBalrog]

Am I the only one who is disappointed to see Abrupt Decay?
I think "can't be countered" is bad design. It ruins the concept of counterspells.

Just like shroud and hexproof have ruined the concept of point removal, amirite?

If anything, the game doesn't have enough "cannot be countered" on cards. Why are counterspells magical exceptions to what other answer cards must deal with? They already get around card types for the most part and can deal with instants and sorceries which no other color's cards can. They also prevent ETB effects. Counterspells are ridiculously flexible compared to other answer cards like STP/Nature's Claim/etc. yet suffer very little for it. No, you don't have to leave mana open, FoW, Daze and Spell Pierce exist.

[Shawon]

Just like shroud and hexproof have ruined the concept of point removal, amirite?

If anything, the game doesn't have enough "cannot be countered" on cards. Why are counterspells magical exceptions to what other answer cards must deal with? They already get around card types for the most part and can deal with instants and sorceries which no other color's cards can. They also prevent ETB effects. Counterspells are ridiculously flexible compared to other answer cards like STP/Nature's Claim/etc. yet suffer very little for it. No, you don't have to leave mana open, FoW, Daze and Spell Pierce exist.

This.

[rufus]

They've spoiled a couple of potential cards for some kind of GB aggro-dredge thing.

It's unlikely to be competitive, but Scavenge could be fun with stuff like Mindless Automaton or Etched Oracle

[Justin]

Abrupt Decay is awesome imo. Counters are bit to much a catch all compared to other colors that has to rely on. Other colors needs diffrent cards for diffrent cardtypes, something hardcounters like fow doesnt care much about. IMO Abrupt Decay is nowhere even close to mental misstep, the card does need a color comitment to at least 2 colors. Also in a more rare color combination for legacy. Cards that cant be countered means blue decks have to diversify their removal suits and cant just live of their counters.

Another reason why Abrupt Decay is amazing is that it is an instant. Previous "destroy target pemanent" cards (Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, etc.) were printed as sorceries. I would play Abrupt Decay if it were just a sorcery, but at instant speed, it is even more awesome. This should be a staple four-of for most BG decks.

[metamet]

Abrupt Decay makes me want to play BUG again.

[sco0ter]

Am I the only one who is disappointed to see Abrupt Decay?
I think "can't be countered" is bad design. It ruins the concept of counterspells. In the end why would anyone put counterspells in his deck when more and more relevant cards will be uncounterable??
I see WoTC is trying to weaken Blue. That might be ok given its dominant position, but why in this ugly manner?
Abrupt Decay smells to me a little bit like Mental Misstep. Good thing that it isn't colorless.

I think the "can't be countered" design in general is ok. It is the spells' equivalent to the permanents' Shroud, Protection from a color or Indestructable.
Why allow a counter spell to always succeed, while a removal spell sometimes fails due to the above abilities?

I am more concerned about the power creep in general, which can be now even noticed on spells.

[nedleeds]

Abrupt Decay is absolutely power creep but in a non-blue color card :laugh: So I'd expect some butt hurt people who "enjoy" "interactive" strategies like Counterbalance. I'd say this card puts a solid nail in that decks coffin, which is fine by me because it's a miserable deck to play against, especially on the draw. In addition it kills Delver pretty nicely, and is even tough to Divert / Mis-D.

This coupled with Mulchpulse to help with filtering and card quality are two awesome additions to green and black.

[hi-val]

All I can say about this set so far is holy shit RTR is going to turn cube draft upside down.

Completely agree. Nearly every card I've seen, from the 1BG Haste guy to the new Wrath, is gonna go in. I have a feeling a lot of Cubes are going to expand by about a hundred cards.

[eq.firemind]

I still want to see some interesting and powerfull spells that do something else than kill creatures.
Something to build around like Life from the Loam from original Ravnika.

[Darkenslight]

I still want to see some interesting and powerfull spells that do something else than kill creatures.
Something to build around like Life from the Loam from original Ravnika.

Guild Feud seems like an amusing card to that effect. For reference:

at the beginning of your upkeep, target opponent reveals the top 3 and may put a creature card onto the field. Then you may do the same. Other cards go in the bin. If both players put a creature in this way, FIGHT!

[evanmartyr]

Slitherhead seems like it could be reasonable in Infect or Berserk Stompy. It is itself a threat, if a very minor one, and then modulars itself onto something else.

[KobeBryan]

Abrupt Decay is selling for 30-40 preorder.

this card isn't worth that much.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

It's a rare in a set with Shocklands, an uncounterable Wrath, Dreadbore, two good (though not for Legacy) planeswalkers, Mythics that will likely be huge casual favorites, and more than half the set still unspoiled. It will not retain anywhere close to that price.

Still, Wizards putting these good, targeted removal spells at rare is pretty douchey. Reminds me of Cashseize, in which there was no reason for it to be rare other than making a chase card.

[Shawon]

I wonder if Jon Finkel had submitted Supreme Verdict's card text in place of the original text of his "Wrath of Leiknif" card design, would it have seen print?

[Koby]

Abrupt Decay is selling for 30-40 preorder.

this card isn't worth that much.

HUH!?!?!

WHAT!?!?!

StarCityGames has this listed at $14. With >30 in stock. Where you finding these outrageous prices?

[Amon Amarth]

HUH!?!?!

WHAT!?!?!

StarCityGames has this listed at $14. With >30 in stock. Where you finding these outrageous prices?

I'm guessing he means total price for a playset. I think around 15 is where the card will land since that was where Maelstrom Pulse was when it wast Standard legal. But I could see it going higher. Abrupt Decay is frikkin amazing.

[Tammit67]

Sweet wounded Jesus Abrupt Decay

Please don't ban LED :cry:

[KobeBryan]

HUH!?!?!

WHAT!?!?!

StarCityGames has this listed at $14. With >30 in stock. Where you finding these outrageous prices?

ya i meant playset on ebay.

[Esper3k]

Playsets are in the 50's now...

[joven]

Just like shroud and hexproof have ruined the concept of point removal, amirite?

If anything, the game doesn't have enough "cannot be countered" on cards. Why are counterspells magical exceptions to what other answer cards must deal with? They already get around card types for the most part and can deal with instants and sorceries which no other color's cards can. They also prevent ETB effects. Counterspells are ridiculously flexible compared to other answer cards like STP/Nature's Claim/etc. yet suffer very little for it. No, you don't have to leave mana open, FoW, Daze and Spell Pierce exist.

FoW, Daze and Spell Pierce are extreme exceptions. Most counterspells cost 2,3,4 or more mana. The problem with counterspells is that you need them at the right time, while removal can come at any time the target is in play (and targetable).
And actually yes, I also think that creatures/cards that have shroud/hexproof permanently by itself go against the concept of removal. Fortunately there are some not too unusual ways like sweepers, sacrifice and combat damage to deal with them. There aren't much ways to deal with uncounterable spells. Cards you can't do anything against no matter what (some would say you can't interact with them) are frustrating and eventually boring. Until now there were only a few completely uncounterable cards. But in Eternal formats uncounterable cards will become more and more, maybe someday to a point were it will be too much.

My theory is that Abrupt Decay might be a second experiment of WotC to try to slow down eternal formats a bit and to drive back Blue's dominance. And that's what I meant when I said it smells a little bit like Mental Misstep (the first experiment).

[Shawon]

There aren't much ways to deal with uncounterable spells.

Discard is plenty ways to deal. Legacy will be fine.

[nedleeds]

People need to start playing Divert ... smash the Abrupt casters Goyf / Mox Diamond / Lil / Bob ...

[Koby]

FoW, Daze and Spell Pierce are extreme exceptions. Most counterspells cost 2,3,4 or more mana. The problem with counterspells is that you need them at the right time, while removal can come at any time the target is in play (and targetable).
And actually yes, I also think that creatures/cards that have shroud/hexproof permanently by itself go against the concept of removal. Fortunately there are some not too unusual ways like sweepers, sacrifice and combat damage to deal with them. There aren't much ways to deal with uncounterable spells. Cards you can't do anything against no matter what (some would say you can't interact with them) are frustrating and eventually boring. Until now there were only a few completely uncounterable cards. But in Eternal formats uncounterable cards will become more and more, maybe someday to a point were it will be too much.

My theory is that Abrupt Decay might be a second experiment of WotC to try to slow down eternal formats a bit and to drive back Blue's dominance. And that's what I meant when I said it smells a little bit like Mental Misstep (the first experiment).

Not every deck cares about countering spells. Nor should every deck need to care.
Not every deck cares about hexproof/shroud. Not should every deck need to care.
Your idea of "ideal" Magic that "anything can be countered or destroyed" is no different from the Casual player looking for a game with "No LD/Counters/Discard".

Uncounterable spells and untargetable creatures are fair game.
Being able to counter every spell (Counterbalance) is not.

By limiting the flexibility of a sub-set of cards like counterspells, you introduce tension into otherwise automatic deck building. Think about how many decks start with 4 Force of Will 4 Brainstorm, and consider that some view this as a challenge to deck diversity in Legacy.

[Nihil Credo]

Most counterspells cost 2,3,4 or more mana. FoW, Daze and Spell Pierce are extreme exceptions....that make up probably something like 40% of the counterspells in Legacy decklists. (And it wouldn't surprise me if it was higher.)

To be blunt, I'm absolutely flabbergasted that you think having more uncounterable cards might hurt Legacy. The dynamic you describe - counterspells are universal answers, but require you to have them in time and to keep XUU open - applies to Standard (and the current Standard certainly could use a little less blue, for different reasons). In Legacy the drawbacks are almost nullified by the best cantrips available in any format and by the large number of 1cc or less countermagic options (including "activate CounterTop"). To correspondingly see their advantage - universality - slightly toned down by the presence of more uncounterable cards in the format is one of the healthiest imaginable developments.

[rxavage]

I never thought I'd say this but I am looking forward to play standard, which I currently don't and haven't. But I'm also excited for what this RTR block will bring to legacy.

[Wilkin]

Discard is plenty ways to deal. Legacy will be fine.

And there's cards like Misdirection and Divert that can also deal with Abrupt Decay. I wonder how many of the Can't be counter cards they are going to make.

Usually, when they made cards like that it cost more mana like a Banefire or Last Word (ok ok, no one is playing that one). Decay is only 2 mana.

I will definitely pick up a playset. LOL, knowing my luck when I try this card I'm going to be facing nothing but Storm and Sneak attack.

[Aggro_zombies]

And there's cards like Misdirection and Divert that can also deal with Abrupt Decay. I wonder how many of the Can't be counter cards they are going to make.
MaRo said on Twitter earlier that it's a rare cycle.


Usually, when they made cards like that it cost more mana like a Banefire or Last Word (ok ok, no one is playing that one). Decay is only 2 mana.

I will definitely pick up a playset. LOL, knowing my luck when I try this card I'm going to be facing nothing but Storm and Sneak attack.
Decay is pretty clearly pushed for Constructed (perhaps not directly for Legacy), partially as an answer to Snapcaster Mage. Getting a spell Mana Leaked, then trying a different spell only to have the opponent go Snapcaster, Mana Leak is one of the more frustrating lines to play against in Standard right now. Having a few powerful answer cards that can't be countered is a great way to signal that the era of Unlimited Snapcasted Counters is over (since people will still Snapcast counters even if they're weaker than Mana Leak). Of course, Decay plays very well with Snapcaster, but that's another issue.

[xeraseth]

MaRo said on Twitter earlier that it's a rare cycle.


Decay is pretty clearly pushed for Constructed (perhaps not directly for Legacy), partially as an answer to Snapcaster Mage. Getting a spell Mana Leaked, then trying a different spell only to have the opponent go Snapcaster, Mana Leak is one of the more frustrating lines to play against in Standard right now. Having a few powerful answer cards that can't be countered is a great way to signal that the era of Unlimited Snapcasted Counters is over (since people will still Snapcast counters even if they're weaker than Mana Leak). Of course, Decay plays very well with Snapcaster, but that's another issue.
They fixed this by not reprinting Mana Leak so this argument is invalid.

[Aggro_zombies]

They fixed this by not reprinting Mana Leak so this argument is invalid.
Even a less powerful counter will still get Snapcast. After a full year of "herp-a-derp, flashan back muh counterz," I think it's nice that there's some obviously powerful spells giving a middle finger to Snapcaster.

I mean, Izzet Charm is definitely Standard playable, and Judge's Familiar might be as well, so that's two decent counters already.

EDIT: Also, Dissipate.

[menace13]

Getting a spell Mana Leaked, then trying a different spell only to have the opponent go Snapcaster, Mana Leak is one of the more frustrating lines to play against in Standard right now.

You can replace Mana Leak with Pierce, Snare, Counterspell, Mana Drain, Mental Misstep. And Standard with every format in your sentence.

Also Removal, and Brainstorm flashback.

[Barook]

I feel like this card puts BG on the map as a legitimate (read: not fringe) color pairing now. Between this and Lotleth Troll, we may be getting close to a seriously competitive Jund aggro or BG midrange deck.
What about Lol-Troll (Lotleth Troll) and Wild Mongrel in a deck featuring Life from the Loam, among other things? Not only do you get powerful Wasteland recursion this way, but also a way to fuel both Wild Mongrel and Lol-Troll (get a bunch of Dryad Arbors via fetchlands and go to town - it's both a land and creature card, after all). Entomb could also act as a tutor to grab Cabal Thearpies/Wastelands/LftLs/Raven's Crime.

The downside would be a certain reliance on the graveyard.

[kwis]

Are you assuming that you're running GSZ and Dryad Arbor so you can feed the Troll as well as have access to a toolbox if desired? I guess one question worth asking is how well does your mainboard strategy work without relying on the graveyard? Perhaps you're looking at some kind of madness build that takes advantage of all possible aspects.

Perhaps it's worth starting in on a possible deck thread there. Still not sure just how strong these guys are though.

Possible considerations

Basking Rootwalla
Big Game Hunter
Circular Logic
Grave Scrabbler
Arrogant Wurm
Reckless Wurm
Dark Withering
Fiery Temper

[Barook]

Are you assuming that you're running GSZ and Dryad Arbor so you can feed the Troll as well as have access to a toolbox if desired? I guess one question worth asking is how well does your mainboard strategy work without relying on the graveyard? Perhaps you're looking at some kind of madness build that takes advantage of all possible aspects.

Perhaps it's worth starting in on a possible deck thread there.
GSZ certainly is an option. Although you can also use your fetchlands to pile up Dryad Arbors for shenanigans (Cabal Therapy, etc.).

It's just a vague idea yet. It certainly needs a Plan B against graveyard hate. I think the idea to convert your fetchlands into creatures/resources is intriguing, though.

[Aggro_zombies]

What about Lol-Troll (Lotleth Troll) and Wild Mongrel in a deck featuring Life from the Loam, among other things? Not only do you get powerful Wasteland recursion this way, but also a way to fuel both Wild Mongrel and Lol-Troll (get a bunch of Dryad Arbors via fetchlands and go to town - it's both a land and creature card, after all). Entomb could also act as a tutor to grab Cabal Thearpies/Wastelands/LftLs/Raven's Crime.

The downside would be a certain reliance on the graveyard.
My biggest problem with graveyard decks is that they're easy to hate, so you need a huge payoff to compensate. If you're obviously going all-in on discarding creatures to pump your Trolls and Mongrels, well (1) you're going to run out of cards in hand pretty quickly and (2) Maverick players are going to slam GSZ for Ooze and own you, and then in game two everyone has Crypts and Relics and whatnot to make your life hard. So the question is, is this deck good enough to justify the headache of knowing everyone dedicates sideboard space to you, and sometimes even maindeck space to you? For a deck like Dredge - explosive and able to dodge blue's counters - the answer is yes. For a fairer deck like this one, I think the answer might be no.

[Octopusman]

Really? No one's talking about:

Loxodon Smiter 1GW

Creature - Elephant Soldier
Loxodon Smiter can't be countered.
If a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard Loxodon Smiter, put it onto the battlefield instead of putting it into your graveyard.
4/4

Illus. Ryan Barger #178/274


What? No hexproof? :0:/:1::0: :wink:


Edit: Today's conversations: "Dies to bolt. Dies to plow."
Tomorrow's conversations: "It's counterable."

[Lemnear]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/rtr/fpbqi0jmup_en.jpg

Can't counter nor discard ... 4/4 to avoid being bolted too ... This is a straight middlefinger in the face of People who don't enjoy creature combat or StoP


Edit: Octo was faster ...

[alderon666]

That guy is somewhere between Knight of the Reliquary and Thrun. IMO it's not good enough for Legacy right now. Knight (most of the time) is just bigger and Thrun is far harder to kill.

[Valtrix]

I mean, I don't think it will see play. It's not really better than Thrun, and Thrun doesn't really see play. Sure, the casting cost is less, but it sill dies to plowshares like everything else and the discard clause is basically irrelevant for Legacy. Plus, it has to compete with Knight of the Reliquary, which I don't think it does.

[Aggro_zombies]

A 4/4 for three mana with no drawbacks, and in fact two (minor) upsides. Oh power creep, how we love thee...

[Phoenix Ignition]

A 4/4 for three mana with no drawbacks, and in fact two (minor) upsides. Oh power creep, how we love thee...

Power creep that isn't even playable. KotR is just so much better and a 4/4 dies to any other beater in the format.

[Offler]

At least it needs both white and green mana. However the cmc3 is just ridiculous.

Since I prefer to play Wizard Tribal deck where creatures at CMC3 have mostly 2/2, something like this is really to compete power level of dreaded Vampire Nighthawk.

Counterbalance as a problem in eternal formats? This brings be back to some debates to ban Sensei's divining top in german highlander. When no reason was find some people started to argue about "slow play"... Still counterbalance plays with chance of hitting correct CMC, while SDT and Scroll Rack increase this chance greatly.

Abrupt decay can be redirected, elephant and verdict however cant be...

[Sigar]

A 4/4 for three mana with no drawbacks, and in fact two (minor) upsides. Oh power creep, how we love thee...

And still useless in Legacy.

[alderon666]

I like this kind of pushed uncounterable cards. It creates a more dinamic format.
I could play Abrupt Decay and own RUG and CB all day long. But then the format might just skew toward control running less counters and beating you with Jace. Then Maelstrom Pulse might become a better choice. It just creates a different angle of attack. I don't just have to splash for red to play Pyroblast in all of my decks.

[Lemnear]

I like this kind of pushed uncounterable cards. It creates a more dinamic format.
I could play Abrupt Decay and own RUG and CB all day long. But then the format might just skew toward control running less counters and beating you with Jace. Then Maelstrom Pulse might become a better choice. It just creates a different angle of attack. I don't just have to splash for red to play Pyroblast in all of my decks.

Think about that scenario: Control Decks ran less counters and more board-solutions -> Stack-based-combo strikes back -> more hate-prints/crying/bannings ;P

Don't think that "uncounterable" becomes somewhat oppressive so Legacy-Decks really have to adjust to that clause.

Decay is a unique card for a Color combination that really needs some Premium spells aside from deed or maelstrom pulse which are both too expensive/fragile for todays Tempo-Meta (daze, pierce, stifle, etc)


Edit: the only Deck that really suffers from this printing is counterbalance which seems an already outdated model of Control since a) threats Like delver, reanimator, ad nauseam, S&T, Thalia, SFM, KotR come into action before CB is online, b) countertop eats a shitload of mana each turn, c) people Play significant more cards in the 3/4cc sector

Counterbalance's only remaining duty is to act as a One-sided Chalice @1 to protect your cards from Swords, spell pierce and Lightning bolt if paired with SFM or dreadnought 0.02$

[Malchar]

A 4/4 for three mana with no drawbacks, and in fact two (minor) upsides. Oh power creep, how we love thee...

Let's just be thankful that it doesn't come into play when you discard it to lotleth troll.

Lotleth troll seems pretty nice with basking rootwalla, vengevine, and/or bloodghast. Of course, it's no survival. Maybe you could toss in anger and do some kind of jund midrange. There's also Volrath's shapeshifter...

[Erdvermampfa]

The Loleth Troll will prove to be quite useless in Legacy. Although it has a lot of flavor (despite trample) it can't compete with other creatures played right now. The regenerate ability is obviously kind of pointless due to swords and terminus while the discard ability doesn't justify playing bad cards like Basking Rootwalla. Furthermore you have to hazard the consequence of being vulnerable to GY hate. Tarmogoyf is still the better option.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The Loleth Troll will prove to be quite useless in Legacy. Although it has a lot of flavor (despite trample) it can't compete with other creatures played right now. The regenerate ability is obviously kind of pointless due to swords and terminus while the discard ability doesn't justify playing bad cards like Basking Rootwalla. Furthermore you have to hazard the consequence of being vulnerable to GY hate. Tarmogoyf is still the better option.

I'll take that bet.

[Barook]

The Loleth Troll will prove to be quite useless in Legacy. Although it has a lot of flavor (despite trample) it can't compete with other creatures played right now. The regenerate ability is obviously kind of pointless due to swords and terminus while the discard ability doesn't justify playing bad cards like Basking Rootwalla. Furthermore you have to hazard the consequence of being vulnerable to GY hate. Tarmogoyf is still the better option.
Nobody said that you must play bad cards like Rootwalla. The "dies to StP" argument has been done to death. Fauna Shaman/GSZ for Sylvan Safekeeper could help against that. Being vulnerable to GY hate depends on how much you rely on it. And nobody said that you can't run both Goyf and Troll.

I wouldn't dismiss the card that easily. There might be some cool interactions like Loam --> Dryad Arbor if you think outside the box.
Ulvenwald Tracker might be an interesting creature removal engine with it, considering both are GSZ-able and not too terrible on their own.

[Illissius]

They should've printed Abrupt Decay three years ago.

[Vacrix]

The Loleth Troll will prove to be quite useless in Legacy. Although it has a lot of flavor (despite trample) it can't compete with other creatures played right now. The regenerate ability is obviously kind of pointless due to swords and terminus while the discard ability doesn't justify playing bad cards like Basking Rootwalla. Furthermore you have to hazard the consequence of being vulnerable to GY hate. Tarmogoyf is still the better option.I disagree. Regeneration isn't necessarily only useful for protecting against removal spells. Its great at getting through when you are even on P/T vs. a potential blocker. That leads to some crazy combat tricks because you can attack with it into a slightly larger creature, should they block knowing it can get bigger or perhaps you are just going to regenerate it. Also, it blocks shit all day long. As far as removal spells go, Abrupt Decay is definitely going to see play and says nothing about preventing regeneration. Deed is still played, which can be relevant if you want to blow the board and save your dude if you play both in the same deck. You can GSZ for this creature as previously mentioned and cards like Vengevine and any of the madness creatures really don't mind being discarded. Its like a super-Wild Mongrel, which was awesome despite only being able to make itself big until end of turn and change its color: this guy stays big and he regenerates. This card has the potential to be very Legacy playable.

[catmint]

Good that the GW uncounterable rare is not playable in Maverick. *phew*
Not that countermagic is something that Maverick has problems anyway...

A general question (a bit off topic) from someone who is not playing the game since a decade. Why is everyone so concerned with power creep? To me it is just logical from a business perspective that you constantly have to print better & more interesting cards to keep the game selling and moving on. As long as the game "plays the same way" in terms of game length, critical turn, level of interactivity,... and all card types, colors & strategies are "balanced" (power creeping in the same way) it does not matter if we one day play with:

R
Instant
5 damage to target creature or player

if there is also
W
Instant
"Timely Reinforcements"

simple and bad example, because its not "interesting" of course....

Am I missing something (honest question, I am not believing that I have a good/full understanding of this issue). That the way "how the power creeps" is influenced by how wizards thinks the game should play (no combo, better creatures,...) is a different issue and can be discussed seperately from "power creep" in general.

[kaiserruhsam]

the problem is that there's nowhere to go from there. When you have to change the starting life totals, deck size, and print no-drawback color sol-lands to adjust to the kind of insane creatures that would exist in a world of lightning bolt does five, it breaks way to much of the back-compatibility with the rest of the game. The standard environment for the year after that block when they went to get the power under control would be more dichotomous than masques/urza standard, and essentially uberblock's block constructed with more dual lands, and extended (hah!) modern and legacy would similarly be overrun with cards from the uberblock.

[xfxf]

I was feeling it is already getting uninteresting on all ends, not that the power creep is taking sides. Combo players, is it hard to assemble chains of spells and have a linear line of play/single kill? So here you go, we give you Omniscience and Griselbrand. All-in-one pill, play it and you'll have storm, you'll have humongous creature bashing. Aggro players, are you findind it hard to maintain a balance between aggressiveness and defensive control elements? Here you go, we give you a Savannah Lions with some disruption and more goodies to come. You don't have to choose and balance and be restricted anymore, whatever your problem is Wizards will give you an all-in-one pill to make it go away in the future set. It's like all the women are slowly being replaced by Nicole Kidman from 7-8 years ago. She's blond, pretty, nice body and polite so what else would you want? But what happened to the brunettes, and the short but feisty ones, the not so petite but curvy ones and all the other non-perfect yet somehow attractive delicacies of the world? That's how I feel anyway.

[Malchar]

The Loleth Troll will prove to be quite useless in Legacy. Although it has a lot of flavor (despite trample) it can't compete with other creatures played right now. The regenerate ability is obviously kind of pointless due to swords and terminus while the discard ability doesn't justify playing bad cards like Basking Rootwalla. Furthermore you have to hazard the consequence of being vulnerable to GY hate. Tarmogoyf is still the better option.

Tarmogoyf also loses to swords to plowshares and terminus, so what's your point? Lotleth Troll's regeneration lets it survive plenty of stuff that goyf dies to such as pernicious deed or a large knight of the reliquary.

Also, I'm pretty sure that neither lotleth troll nor basking rootwalla lose to graveyard hate, but tarmogoyf actually does.

[Shugyosha]

Am I missing something (honest question, I am not believing that I have a good/full understanding of this issue). That the way "how the power creeps" is influenced by how wizards thinks the game should play (no combo, better creatures,...) is a different issue and can be discussed seperately from "power creep" in general.

Power creep on itself is not the issue. Wizards stated and continue to do so to shift the creeping around. Sometimes its P/T, sometimes a color, sometimes an ability.

The problem is the nature of the eternal formats. In standard power creep cards rotate, while Vintage, Legacy and later on Modern are filled with so many power creeped cards that it essentially a format of undercosted/overpowered cards in contrast to the standard meta.

That's why people like it and it is Ok for a long time but will essentially lead to big problems like the Mountains+Bolts deck. Tutor effects are another part of the problem. It's not just new cards outclassing the old ones. Cards like Knight, Zenith and other tutor effects will get stronger with every set. This sort of delayed power creep is not problematic in Standard but adds to the problem in eternal formats.

[Mr. Safety]

I just saw Abrubt Decay...wow, just wow. Uncounterable, instant speed Maelstrom Pulse for :b::g:. How insane is this card? As a lover of all things B/G, this will be on my priority list for getting a set.

Regarding the current conversation of power creep/state of eternal formats: they got rid of mana burn with M10, maybe they'll get rid of mana altogether in M15 or somewhere around there? I mean, everybody knows that Yu Gi Oh is a much better game than Magic... [/sarcasm] While better, more powerful cards are exciting it creates a general sense of building a mountain out of sand. You pile more on top but you can never really get it very high, it keeps slipping down. I think what happens is that the new cards don't replace bad cards...they replace similar cards that are GOOD. The replaced good cards simply slide down the sandhill a little bit. It becomes a choice not of "do I have decent removal/control in the color(s) I'm playing, or do I need to splash " but rather "which removal/control is best in the color(s) I'm playing." Deckbuilding is getting easier (still not easy) and playing is getting a little less skill intensive (but still rewards great skill.) I'm curious where the next few sets will take Magic, honestly. It might not be great, it might not be terrible, but one thing is for sure: it won't be boring.

[catmint]

Makes sense shugyosha. The problem with eternal formats is a different ones that for standard.
However:

1) that eternal formats have a huge card pool, but the choice of playable cards is actually very limited to the best undercosted cards or some sick synergies is the nature of the game. Power creep just means that there will always be new & better undercosted cards coming in. That is also a good thing I think. I would stop playing legacy after a while if no new cards would make it into the format.

2) The hypothetical "mountain lightning bolt" issue is not really existend if answers are also getting better right? The issue with tutor effects or cards like Show&Tell getting better and better is true. But the format can also adapt to that and if not you can always ban something.

So I don't foresee why the powercreep should be a gravestone for eternal formats. Maybe people did not really think that but the tone seems to be "damn power creep", while for me personally it is "cool, power creep: something to talk/think about".

I guess the challenge (and maybe what some people are complaining) is to make something somehow not only better but different.
i.e.: a better bolt = boring and pure power creep.
Galvanic blast = conditionally better -> good design.

[bruizar]

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

[xfxf]

1) that eternal formats have a huge card pool, but the choice of playable cards is actually very limited to the best undercosted cards or some sick synergies is the nature of the game. Power creep just means that there will always be new & better undercosted cards coming in. That is also a good thing I think. I would stop playing legacy after a while if no new cards would make it into the format.


True, but I think they need to back down a little on providing eternal formats with goodies. Every set which comes out almost change the face of Legacy. Zendikar comes out, Jace and SFM become the format's centerpiece deck. Innistrad comes out, Delver of Secret become the center of the format (I'm not even mentioning Snapcaster Mage). Dark Ascension comes out, Thalia Faithless Looting and Lingering Souls have major effects on the top decks of the format, Avacyn Restored comes out, we get miracles which brings back a new DTB to the format (UW Counter Top Miracles) and Griselbrand which makes the Show and Tell decks a centerpiece of the format. Each and every set is having such drastic effects on Legacy, I think it is a bit too much.

I like new exciting cards but if every new set (every 3 months) impacts and shifts the format in such a significant way than there's not much excitement imo.

[bruizar]

True, but I think they need to back down a little on providing eternal formats with goodies. Every set which comes out almost change the face of Legacy. Zendikar comes out, Jace and SFM become the format's centerpiece deck. Innistrad comes out, Delver of Secret become the center of the format (I'm not even mentioning Snapcaster Mage). Dark Ascension comes out, Thalia Faithless Looting and Lingering Souls have major effects on the top decks of the format, Avacyn Restored comes out, we get miracles which brings back a new DTB to the format (UW Counter Top Miracles) and Griselbrand which makes the Show and Tell decks a centerpiece of the format. Each and every set is having such drastic effects on Legacy, I think it is a bit too much.

I like new exciting cards but if every new set (every 3 months) impacts and shifts the format in such a significant way than there's not much excitement imo.

Totally agree with this. I would like more subtle cards instead of format shakers. A card like Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek is what I really like. Powerful enough to be a format staple for years of eternal play, but not a dominant roleplayer in decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

Totally agree with this. I would like more subtle cards instead of format shakers. A card like Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek is what I really like. Powerful enough to be a format staple for years of eternal play, but not a dominant roleplayer in decks.
I dunno, I wouldn't want to play minor variations on the same solved format for six to twelve months while I wait for it to finally get shaken up. It would get pretty boring.

[Shawon]

Meh, I was expecting the 'can't be countered' cycle (shouldn't they have an evergreen keyword for that by now?) be all instants and sorceries. I was expecting the GW would be an instant/sorcery that has a 'Destroy/exile all artifacts/enchantments' effect. Forget these 'creatures' I want to see power-creeped sb tech!

[rufus]

Totally agree with this. I would like more subtle cards instead of format shakers. A card like Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek is what I really like. Powerful enough to be a format staple for years of eternal play, but not a dominant roleplayer in decks.

There is a mathematical tendency is for a format to trend toward one dominant deck, or three dominant decks. Format shakers that make things more diverse by making for more diversity in viable archetypes are probably healthy. Ones that show up in everything except for metagame counterpicks could probably be described as missteps.

[Illissius]

They should've printed Abrupt Decay three years ago.

...upon reflection maybe they shouldn't have printed it at all. I'm reminded of the reason I hate Wasteland. Wasteland is a staple in a lot of decks primarily for the mana denial aspect, but a side effect is that if you want to build a deck around a particular nonbasic land, you're SOL because everyone plays Wasteland and Wasteland is hard to protect against. Jamming it together with a bunch of recursion (e.g. Life from the Loam) is more or less the only way.

And now we have Abrupt Decay which kills nonland permanents with converted mana cost 3 or less. Like Wasteland, Abrupt Decay is hard to protect against. Like Wasteland, Abrupt Decay is likely to become a staple in a number of decks primarily as general-purpose removal. And as a side effect, if you want to build your deck around a particular nonland permanent with converted mana cost 3 or less without using recursion, you might turn out to be SOL. As a first effect it's going to put a lot of nails in the coffin of Stasis.

Unlike Wasteland this isn't colorless, but in two colors of which neither one is blue. Legacy decks splash all kinds of colors and making predictions about the future is hard, but it definitely won't be as popular as Wasteland. But it still seems easily possible that it will be popular enough to be annoying.

So, Abrupt Decay: Great little utility card; would've been perfect three years ago as an antidote to Counterbalance.format; might lead to heartburn in the future. In the absence of Counterbalance.format I would've opted to print it without uncounterability, and that wouldn't have stopped it from being a great little utility card.

[bruizar]

I dunno, I wouldn't want to play minor variations on the same solved format for six to twelve months while I wait for it to finally get shaken up. It would get pretty boring.

Cabal Therapy, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize are all unique and useful in different matchups. That's the beauty of the design there.

Here are some of the reasons why (there are more).

IoK is great with Snapcaster Mage, whereas Thoughtseize might be too expensive.

Duress is the traditional preemptive counter against control decks, because it doesn't cost life (relevant for Ad Nauseam) and still gets to pick off Force of Will.

Cabal Therapy is great with AND without creatures, in very different strategies. It's the only card that can get rid of multiple cards with one spell. It can also get rid of any card (nonland obv), the way Thoughtseize can, but it doesn't cost life. This makes it great for combo that only cares about removing the cards that can stop them now, but ofcourse we all know the cost of missing cabal therpay call. Besides that, you can get even more value out of this thruogh the flashback (dredge, veteran explorer).

Thoughtseize is the least conditional discard but also the most expensive discard spell. 2 life matters, especially if you're running Snapcaster Mages and stuff.

As you can see, even though they are variations, they are all very unique in their own way. This is the reason why they pop up every now and then fade away only to return again. They are very meta dependent in design.

Even though black has been called the worst color of magic together with red, I think these discard spells are actually very subtle and well-designed, more so than stuff like Bonfire of the Damned or Griselbrand to name another black / red card.



There is a mathematical tendency is for a format to trend toward one dominant deck, or three dominant decks. Format shakers that make things more diverse by making for more diversity in viable archetypes are probably healthy. Ones that show up in everything except for metagame counterpicks could probably be described as missteps.

as you can see from my response, I don't agree with that last sentence at all. Having 1/3 dominant design is a misstep, having meta dependencies is what has made magic thrive for so many years. There is a format where there is hardly any metagaming going on lately. It's called vintage and its not in a very healthy state. It has nothing to do with a mathematical tendency, but it has to do with incomparables, as described in the video I posted before.


Ask yourself this. How good would it be for legacy if this card got printed?:

One-Inquisition-To-Rule-Them-All
Mythic rare
B
Target player reveals his or her hand. You may choose and discard a card from it.
~
"Like your old collection, through that card away." - MaRo, R&D Monetizer

It would obsolete all the prior variations and simply be better than all the alternatives (strictly better except versus cabal therapy, which functions different). How is that even remotely interesting from a deckbuilding and play perspective?

[xfxf]

Exactly. I like your example a lot. That's why I didn't like cards like Dryad Militant in this set, because they are strict upgrades to previous versions of the card. Not that we didn't have such upgrades in the past but I feel like they are going to open the flood gates when the full set is revealed and I don't like the general trend over the past 18 monts.

[Koby]

Exactly. I like your example a lot. That's why I didn't like cards like Dryad Militant in this set, because they are strict upgrades to previous versions of the card. Not that we didn't have such upgrades in the past but I feel like they are going to open the flood gates when the full set is revealed and I don't like the general trend over the past 18 monts.

I wouldn't consider it a strict upgrade to Savannah Lion in constructed play whatsoever. Part of the reason is that there is no consideration for a 2/1 for :1: mana in Legacy at the moment. If it sees a ton of play, it's strictly because of the other text on the card - but not because it's a 2/1 for :1:. The case bruizar is highlighting is providing a strict uprgade to cards (multiple!) that see numerous play in Legacy. Moreso, such a card would be an improvement in Modern too. Perhaps the example is an extreme, but it does show the point that bumping up the power level of a card is irreversible and discourages diversity. We did see this with Tarmogoyf (vs Werebear & Psychatog) and Master of Pearl Trident. There is no case here that Dryad Militant is going to replace a constructed staple. It's just a unique effect that will be played for the effect foremost.

[Gheizen64]

Exactly. I like your example a lot. That's why I didn't like cards like Dryad Militant in this set, because they are strict upgrades to previous versions of the card. Not that we didn't have such upgrades in the past but I feel like they are going to open the flood gates when the full set is revealed and I don't like the general trend over the past 18 monts.

Every card is a strictly better version of squire. Being strictly better than a card that doesn't see play doesn't make a card oppressive or something, it just make it possibly playable, something that the Dryad is, a borderline playable card.

[xfxf]

Who ever used the word oppressive?

[bruizar]

Every card is a strictly better version of squire. Being strictly better than a card that doesn't see play doesn't make a card oppressive or something, it just make it possibly playable, something that the Dryad is, a borderline playable card.

Well, Savannah Lions used to be a very playable card, so whatever you call the effect that occured in the meantime, which has caused it to be less than borderline playable (no utility, whereas dryad does have utility), that has to be brought back to a bare minimum. We don't want Delver of Secrets to be barely playable in another 5 years because there is something just as strong but with utility for the same cost.


edit:
Savannah Lions being good is a long while ago, but that doesn't change the fact that powercreep has occured and, in my opinion, it is happening at a more rapid pace. The reason why purchasing magic singles has become more and more expensive for me is mostly due to the fact that standard is printing a bunch of powerful cards lately. Entreat the Angels, Terminus, Cavern of Souls, Snapcaster Mage, Lingering Souls, Liliana of the Veil, etc. Yes, it's my own fault that I want to have all the legacy staples in foil, but it's their fault for printing them in the first place. Once I can't cough up enough money because I simply can't keep up financially, I have to make a decision with what I do with my collection.

Terminus already hurt WoG, but with Supreme Verdict on the horizon, I'm not really happy about having an alpha and 7th foil Wrath of God anymore. Abrupt Decay puts a dent in my foil Vindicates and Maelstrom Pulse isn't looking happy either. Militant Dryad puts my 4x Beta Savannah Lions to shame. Yes, these are collectors issues, but collecting is a major part of game and a big reason why it's been around for so long.

[sdematt]

I doubt Abrupt Decay will be too good. The only people playing it in full usage will be Modern, but in Legacy, it goes into what, Junk, Nic Fit, and maybe one other as a 2-of?

It doesn't kill Jace, Batterskull, Humility. That's the main problem. You still need to run Vindicate/Pulse as the Junk player since you hate Jace. This is not to say I won't split my Pulses with Decays now, but let's not get crazy.

-Matt

[nedleeds]

I think the Mulchpulse is more relevant to legacy GBx decks than even decay. Removing small permanents was never GBx's problem ... card quality and digging out of mid game stalemates was (i.e. we ain't gots no brainstorm). Mulchpulsing for Eternal Witness can even get you a spell (deed/planeswalker) back.

[Koby]

Well, Savannah Lions used to be a very playable card, so whatever you call the effect that occured in the meantime, which has caused it to be less than borderline playable (no utility, whereas dryad does have utility), that has to be brought back to a bare minimum. We don't want Delver of Secrets to be barely playable in another 5 years because there is something just as strong but with utility for the same cost.

The last time Savannah Lions was playable was well before Shards of Alara, when Wild Nacatl got printed. Since then, the only playable 1 drops have been utility (Mother of Runes, Goblin Lackey) or 2/2s. This fictional world where Savannah Lions is considered playable is also a world where Black Vice is legal in Type 2.

[Gheizen64]

Well, Savannah Lions used to be a very playable card, so whatever you call the effect that occured in the meantime, that has to be brought back to a bare minimum. We don't want Delver of Secrets to be barely playable in another 5 years because there is something just as strong but with utility for the same cost.

Delver is a mistake. In almost 20 years, as far as one drop go, only Nacatl was a clear upgrade to Kird Ape, and it had a drawback for being so. And, incredibly so, Red has lost power in the 1 drop-slot over the years, due to the M10 rules change (Fanatic best 1-drop ever, Guide is worse imho, better aggressive card but too narrow and big drawback) .
Compare that to what happened to 2 drops.

[rufus]

Delver is a mistake. ...

Decay does seem like it's intended to be an answer to U tempo decks like RUG delver.

[boneclub24]

But playing against Delver-style tempo decks, doesn't answering their 1-drop with your 2-drop seem pretty bad?

[Greenpoe]

But playing against Delver-style tempo decks, doesn't answering their 1-drop with your 2-drop seem pretty bad?

They're deck is a bunch of counters and Stifles and Brainstorms, leaving little room for actual threats. Thus when you kill their threats, it can seriously hamper their plan.

[wcm8]

Abrupt Decay is going to be an amazing card in BUG Control decks.

-RUG and other similar tempo decks rely on pushing a small number of threats through, protected on the back of cheap counterspells. AD is obviously not as cost effective as Ghastly Demise, but it can't be countered. This is incredibly key in this matchup. The mongeese can be taken care of via Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict, Liliana otV, Pernicious Deed, pre-emptive discard or similar cards.

-It provides utility beyond just killing creatures in aggro matchups. Against Maverick, it also hits their Sylvan Library, various equipment, and (g2 and 3) Choke and other similar problematic permanents. Against the various tribal decks, it removes Aether Vial, allowing you an easier time of answering threats on a 1-for-1 basic until you land a Planeswalker.

-Lock cards from opposing control decks like Chalice of the Void, Crucible of Worlds and Counterbalance get answered by it, no questions asked.

-2cmc isn't that bad for a deck which runs 23-24 lands. Snapping it back isn't out of the question either.

-Unlike other many other black removal cards, it doesn't have a problem destroying Dark Confidant or Germ Tokens.

-Pretty much every Legacy-playable creature costs 3 or less, and if they don't, they likely wouldn't be dying to your other removal spells either. The only instances where Maelstrom Pulse is better against opposing Jaces, Elspeths, Batterskulls, and tokens (which can be handled via Pernicious Deed). Okay, and I'll grant that occasionally Pulse can 2-for-1.

I don't think the card is absolutely busted, but it's definitely a very versatile and powerful option for BUG control. I'd expect to see such decks to play 3-4 copies of it in the 75.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I love Scavenge. It's a fantastic mechanic, and fits so well with the flavour of the old Golgari.


As for Abrupt Decay... personally, I'm drooling. True, there's a lot of relevant stuff out there now at CMC 4+; on the other hand, its versatility and uncounterable nature make it mega-attractive/useful. It'll likely be replacing Snuff Out (*sniff*) in my NO BUG list, where Eternal Witness and company will boost its redundancy and efficacy. I don't know whether that will suffice to wake the deck from its metagame-induced slumber, but it'll be a lot of fun.

[menace13]

But playing against Delver-style tempo decks, doesn't answering their 1-drop with your 2-drop seem pretty bad?

No. Not at all. Normally due to counters it would be though. But that isn't the case here. The card is really good. It is never dead where sometimes creature removal or artifact/enchantment removal can be this covers all 3.

[Malchar]

But playing against Delver-style tempo decks, doesn't answering their 1-drop with your 2-drop seem pretty bad?

If they played a 2-drop on turn 2 and a 3-drop on turn 3, you'd eventually fall behind if your answers always cost 1 more. However, that's not the case with delver because the entire deck is 1-drops, and they have no way to get card advantage.

Even if they play 2 delvers on turn 2, you should have enough time to cast abrupt decay on your turn 2 followed by an answer for the other one on turn 3. You take at most 3 damage in between.

Playing any kind of removal that could be countered here means that you're opening yourself up to losing a ton of tempo, and potentially taking 6 damage every turn (in the example of 2 delvers) until you stabilize. Since abrupt decay can't be countered, you automatically maintain tempo.

In this situation, the only disadvantages compared to a 1-drop removal spell are the fact that you can get wastelanded off of 2 land, and you also need two specific colors to cast it.

[boneclub24]

Alright, I can see this.

[Malchar]

Just watch out for something like divert. If abrupt decay is as good as it seems against delver, they'll be forced to adapt. Luckily, you can play around misdirection effects by not having any nonland permanents.

[ScatmanX]

Luckily, you can play around misdirection effects by not having any nonland permanents.
And Jace. =D

[Final Fortune]

The last time Savannah Lions was playable was well before Shards of Alara, when Wild Nacatl got printed. Since then, the only playable 1 drops have been utility (Mother of Runes, Goblin Lackey) or 2/2s. This fictional world where Savannah Lions is considered playable is also a world where Black Vice is legal in Type 2.

Shit, Kird Ape is enough of a reason to not play Savannah Lion's and 1 for 2/2s without Haste aren't exactly good either.

[bruizar]

Man I wanna try abrupt decay in loam pox.

[xfxf]

I dunno, I wouldn't want to play minor variations on the same solved format for six to twelve months while I wait for it to finally get shaken up. It would get pretty boring.

Yes I understand, but the current situation is, every 3 months some new cards with huge impact gets printed and everybody flock to the new decks enabled by these new cards. So there really is no time to solve the format, or try to solve the format. It's just people are switching to whatever the new major deck is and playing with it until something stronger comes along. It happened with UW blade decks, Delver (canadian threshold was kind of left behind during the MM era), Show and Griselbrand, Miracle Control.

[Vacrix]

Man I wanna try abrupt decay in loam pox.
Seems legit. I think the BG Planeswalker is well suited to that deck as well. Blows up permanents, and Loam Pox is pretty good at clearing the board up so that the assassin tokens can get there.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Just realized Decay also buggers Counterbalance and Liliana. Not a huge application, but mighty handy for that colour combination.

[Justin]

I doubt Abrupt Decay will be too good. The only people playing it in full usage will be Modern, but in Legacy, it goes into what, Junk, Nic Fit, and maybe one other as a 2-of?

It doesn't kill Jace, Batterskull, Humility. That's the main problem. You still need to run Vindicate/Pulse as the Junk player since you hate Jace. This is not to say I won't split my Pulses with Decays now, but let's not get crazy.

-Matt

I think you are underestimating Abrupt Decay. I see it as a four of. I don't think that it competes with Maelstrom Pulse, but it plays alongside it. Decay replaces the inferior two-mana (or so) black creature removal spells. These include Go for the Throat, Smother, Doom Blade, Victim of Night, Dismember, Putrefy, etc. Many GB decks have been using these kinds of cards as one-ofs that they can search out with Top and fetchlands to find the one they need. However, Abrupt Decay is better than all of them because it hits non-permanents and is uncounterable. Dismember is the only black removal spell that might compete with it because you can cast it for 1 mana, but it doesn't hit a lot of things that decay does. Obviously Innocent Blood can also be good, but only for a specific kind of deck. Now for GBw decks, you may have a harder time fitting in Decay, because they will play Swords to Plowshares for those removal spots. But for pure GB, Abrupt Decay will become a staple.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Anyone think the Loltroll might manage to revive interest in a Vengevine-fuelled archetype? The restriction on discarding creatures is unfortunate, but Trample and Regenerate make it very attractive over Mongrel, and between Vengevine, Rootwalla, Bloodghast and the like, it doesn't seem unworkable.


I guess not, but it's a nice thought.

[baghdadbob]

I really like Vraska. I will definitely making a black/green deck with her in it. Also supreme verdict just looks ridiculously good. "Do you want your wraths uncounterable? Well all you have to do is play it in the colors you were already going to play it in anyway!" lol

[Vacrix]

Come to think of it... Abrupt Decay is going to be fantastic in Loam Pox because the deck is so good at keeping the opponent off lands that its unlikely they will get to 4+ mana anyway.

[Gheizen64]

http://i.imgur.com/OkOLk.jpg

Card seems possibly better than Abyssal Persecutor... but should've really costed BBB and not 2BB

Text for those that don't see the card:

Desecrator Demon 2BB
Creature- Demon
Flying
At the beginning of Combat, opponent may sacrifice a creature. If he do, tap desecrator demon and put a +1+1 counter on it
6/6

Fringe playable anyway.

[Fizzeler]

It looks playable in The Gate as it adds another sac outlet to the board and a 6/6 for 4 is always good

[Nihil Credo]

It looks playable in The Gate as it adds another sac outlet to the board"Any opponent". Sorry.

Doesn't look completely unplayable, but one big problem is that it can get tapped even if you didn't mean to attack with it, making it pretty bad at stabilising when you're behind.

[Barook]

It's too expensive for Pox variants, right? Token generators also kinda ruin it.

[Moduloc]

The demon is saucey but still is not as good as Tombstalker.

[Madmartigan]

The demon is a house!

That dude is a finisher!

[Fizzeler]

"Any opponent". Sorry.

Doesn't look completely unplayable, but one big problem is that it can get tapped even if you didn't mean to attack with it, making it pretty bad at stabilising when you're behind.

Ah misread, then I guess it adds another Edict effect to the board, but as you said this guy is bad when you're behind and Elspeth just laughs at him

[Malchar]

I think it's just worse than abyssal persecutor. The decks that play persecutor have plenty of sacrifice outlets when they need them. It's probably better to have a 6/6 flying attacker/blocker even if it means you can't win the game right now. The decks that play these are usually control decks looking to stabilize the board. They don't need to win immediately.

The new demon does play pretty nicely with instant speed removal or tricks. If they have multiple guys, they sac one to tap the demon, attack, but then you can just kill the others before damage.

[Hardcore]

It is a Magus of the Abyss.

[bowvamp]

@Hardcore:
Except way better? It's asymmetrical.

I think that Decay is easily the best card spoiled so far.
My personal favorite has to be Pack Rat however. It's awesome because its token gets the ability too. If only it didn't discard. Then I could justify running it in MBC in modern because it dodges basically all forms of removal with Swarmyard and built in redundancy :P alas...

Outside of that, I think that izzet charm is overrated and I really want to see some more cards that use gates.

[Aggro_zombies]

I love the flavor of that demon. The more you appease it, the more necessary it becomes to keep appeasing it.

Too bad it's not really good in Legacy or EDH.

[Greenpoe]

Black has lots of really powerful creatures at 4cc: This guy, Percy, Obliterator, Lashwrithe, and Korlash. Plus, Sewer Nememis and Grinning Demon are pretty strong. Just saying, this is nothing new.

[Oiolosse]

It's conditional, when you want to hit for dmg this guy won't provide. It's a dud.

[rufus]

It's conditional, when you want to hit for dmg this guy won't provide. It's a dud.

The ability is fake evasion - its pretty similar to chump blockers. 6/6 for 4 without evasion... probably not up to snuff with the power creep.

[phonics]

I think it is going to suffer from the problem that browbeat like cards have with giving opponents the choice.

[bruizar]

Dies to Jace and PLowshares, doesn't connect, what's new?

[Hardcore]

@bowvamp, it work as an abyss if your board position already is advantageous (say if your opponent only got mother of runes in play). Otoh if you are the defender you just got a demon that wont change anything (the opponent has a knight of reliquary with a sword attached).

[bruizar]

@faildemon

This guy is almost the same as Sengir Vampire. Except, Sengir Vampire has real evasion. It will be a $2,- rare.

[Lemnear]

@bowvamp, it work as an abyss if your board position already is advantageous (say if your opponent only got mother of runes in play). Otoh if you are the defender you just got a demon that wont change anything (the opponent has a knight of reliquary with a sword attached).

The joke is: if you are behind this 6/6 flying monsterblocker is negated in attack AND defense by just sacrificing 1 creature during opponents attack step. Against more than enough decks this conditionality in being a available for attack or block is a death trap. Sac a noble hierarch, stored-up Thalias, Veteran explorer or abyssal persecutor seems legit ;D

If you are in front it doesn't offer Anything more than being 6/6 flying for 4cc which doesn't impress me anymore facing todays creature power creep. Worse than tombstalker, persecutor or even Magus of the abyss (the ones named to far)

[Nihil Credo]

Yeah, the more I think about this guy the more I come up with scenarios where his ability screws you over. Besides, if Persecutor decks wanted to run 4 but had trouble running enough sac outlets to support them, you'd be interested in looking at alternatives, but I understand that's not really the case.

BTW, there's going to be a third cycle of dual lands in RtR, in addition to the shocklands and the guildates. Names spoiled on Salvation: Azorius Legislative District, Selesnya Vertical Garden, Orzhov Commons, Izzet Industrial Zone, Golgari Drainage Canyon, Dimir Shadow Market, Rakdos Murder-Gras, Simic Biocampus, Boros Precinct and Gruul Rubble-Slum. If they're utility lands they might be interesting, and maybe it's me but they do sound like utility lands ("commons" = token generator, "legislative district" = tapper?, "drainage canyon" = gy removal?, "shadow market" = draw/discard).

[menace13]

BTW, there's going to be a third cycle of dual lands in RtR, in addition to the shocklands and the guildates. Names spoiled on Salvation: Azorius Legislative District, Selesnya Vertical Garden, Orzhov Commons, Izzet Industrial Zone, Golgari Drainage Canyon, Dimir Shadow Market, Rakdos Murder-Gras, Simic Biocampus, Boros Precinct and Gruul Rubble-Slum. If they're utility lands they might be interesting, and maybe it's me but they do sound like utility lands ("commons" = token generator, "legislative district" = tapper?, "drainage canyon" = gy removal?, "shadow market" = draw/discard).

Makes sense seeing as Ravnica had utility lands the first time around. Hoping they make them all a little bit more powerful than the first were.

[Wilkin]

Desecration Demon reminds me of Browbeat. Browbeat isn't a terrible card but it isn't really used in Burn all that often. Giving your opponent a choice, even if both aren't great options isn't good for you. Persecutor is better imo.

Vexing Devil is another one. It's not a bad card but it's not great either. But he is used in burn decks since he's one mana.


Excited about the set, but not for the Demon. Already wondering what the other can't be countered cards are going to be. lol, wish the uncounterable wrath was a black/white card. oh well.

[Aggro_zombies]

BTW, there's going to be a third cycle of dual lands in RtR, in addition to the shocklands and the guildates. Names spoiled on Salvation: Azorius Legislative District, Selesnya Vertical Garden, Orzhov Commons, Izzet Industrial Zone, Golgari Drainage Canyon, Dimir Shadow Market, Rakdos Murder-Gras, Simic Biocampus, Boros Precinct and Gruul Rubble-Slum. If they're utility lands they might be interesting, and maybe it's me but they do sound like utility lands ("commons" = token generator, "legislative district" = tapper?, "drainage canyon" = gy removal?, "shadow market" = draw/discard).
Do we know for sure that these are lands and not just concept art? I was under the impression that they were "typical guild locations" rather than actual land art.

EDIT: After looking at the pieces again, they do seem pretty finished for concept art.

[Madmartigan]

The demon is no fail, he is a strong competitor in the 4cc black monster slot (with Persecutor and Phyrexian Obliterator).

What deck are you playing that opponent will have tons of creatures they will be happy to sac? If you are hitting them with Hymn and Edict then there will be no surplus of creatures. And if they are forced to sacrifice one -- great.

Comparable to Persecutor but you don't have to run a ton of effects that make you sacrifice creatures. So if you want to do non-self-sacrificing black, this guy could be a superior choice.

[Aggro_zombies]

The demon is no fail, he is a strong competitor in the 4cc black monster slot (with Persecutor and Phyrexian Obliterator).

What deck are you playing that opponent will have tons of creatures they will be happy to sac? If you are hitting them with Hymn and Edict then there will be no surplus of creatures. And if they are forced to sacrifice one -- great.

Comparable to Persecutor but you don't have to run a ton of effects that make you sacrifice creatures. So if you want to do non-self-sacrificing black, this guy could be a superior choice.
Not really.

This guy will usually drop on turn four or so. I guess you could run Dark Ritual, but that card really should not be in decks that aren't combo - but setting that aside, let's assume that you don't Ritual him in on turn two very often. If the opponent has, say, three creatures, they have three turns of locking this guy down (at least) while doing damage to you in the interim with the guys you could block with the demon, but can't because he's tapped. Actually, we'll assume you cast him post-combat, so you get a turn of blocking. That's not really great unless you're far enough ahead to just tank the damage. If you're behind, he doesn't really help since your opponent can continue to attack you with his best creatures while feeding the Demon his worst. Against creature-light decks, he's basically a 6/6 for four, and black is swimming in those, except this one can be occasionally messed with by the opponent at inopportune times.

Here's the thing, though: Persecutor and Obliterator don't suffer from these problems. The former plays well with some of the best black removal (since you can aim Edict effects at either player) while the later makes combat very tricky for the opponent on defense and is thus great when behind. The new Demon doesn't really do either of these things. You could argue that he's okay if you've used a lot of removal so your opponent has no creatures, but that's true of the other four-drops as well. When you're behind, have a removal-light draw, or just want to end the game really quickly, Persecutor or Obliterator will be better.

[Kich867]

Not really.

This guy will usually drop on turn four or so. I guess you could run Dark Ritual, but that card really should not be in decks that aren't combo - but setting that aside, let's assume that you don't Ritual him in on turn two very often. If the opponent has, say, three creatures, they have three turns of locking this guy down (at least) while doing damage to you in the interim with the guys you could block with the demon, but can't because he's tapped. Actually, we'll assume you cast him post-combat, so you get a turn of blocking. That's not really great unless you're far enough ahead to just tank the damage. If you're behind, he doesn't really help since your opponent can continue to attack you with his best creatures while feeding the Demon his worst. Against creature-light decks, he's basically a 6/6 for four, and black is swimming in those, except this one can be occasionally messed with by the opponent at inopportune times.

Here's the thing, though: Persecutor and Obliterator don't suffer from these problems. The former plays well with some of the best black removal (since you can aim Edict effects at either player) while the later makes combat very tricky for the opponent on defense and is thus great when behind. The new Demon doesn't really do either of these things. You could argue that he's okay if you've used a lot of removal so your opponent has no creatures, but that's true of the other four-drops as well. When you're behind, have a removal-light draw, or just want to end the game really quickly, Persecutor or Obliterator will be better.

If you play him post combat the opponent can sacrifice to tap him still. It states 'Each' combat, giving the potential for him to kill multiple creatures.

I think he's not playable much in legacy, but in standard? Jesus. Curving out into Vampire Nighthawk followed by this guy? I'm feeling like mono-black will be a nightmare in standard, especially given the current removal available to black in standard right now. Mutilate is pretty good in a mono black deck...

[rufus]

The casting cost makes him borderline, at best, for legacy.

Unless the opponent is feeding him tokens, or something like Bloodghast it seems like Desecration Demon ends up being an X-for-1 card.

It seems like Desecration Demon could shine in some sort of stompy-like shell:
Turn 1, Chrome Mox, sol land, 3-sphere
Turn 2, swamp, Desecration Demon

Most of the time, he's going to be a lose-more card though.

[Barook]

New cards are out:

Rakdos Guildmage seems to be kinda unimpressive:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135469&stc=1&d=1347249783

So is the G/W guild leader:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135472&stc=1&d=1347250010

But this thing looks interesting:
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/rtr/t3xc7vq9ct_en.jpg

[gamegeek2]

I think what's interesting is that you can exile copies of instants/sorceries created by Storm to create a giant Nivmagus Elemental. It might be a strong backup strategy for storm decks to bring the Elemental in against decks which board out all their creature removal, along with copies of Grapeshot to enable "mini-storms" to power the Elemental.

[Aggro_zombies]

My first thought when seeing that elemental was, "Oh, if the opponent is countering your spell, you can exile it instead to grow your guy. Neat." But that's not a reason to run this card, since I don't want to plan on my spells getting countered. Actually, I don't want to plan around my spells not resolving in any form, since the spells that get played in Legacy are all more powerful than a +2/+2 boost on a non-evasive guy.

The elemental is tempting, though. Costing one means you actually have incentive to build around it a bit.

[Tammit67]

It might be a strong backup strategy for storm decks to bring the Elemental in against decks which board out all their creature removal, along with copies of Grapeshot to enable "mini-storms" to power the Elemental.

I'm quite sure not, though I like this cards a lot

[Barook]

I think what's interesting is that you can exile copies of instants/sorceries created by Storm to create a giant Nivmagus Elemental. It might be a strong backup strategy for storm decks to bring the Elemental in against decks which board out all their creature removal, along with copies of Grapeshot to enable "mini-storms" to power the Elemental.
Let's not forget about Flusterstorm which wins counterwars and can eat up unneeded copies.

[csy]

Hey I called it! A u/r spell that removes spells from the stack. Go back like 10 pages I totally called it.

[Stall_19]

What's interesting is that all these hybrid one mana cards all involved doing something to/for instants or sorceries. Wonder what the r/b & g/b ones are going to do.

[Angelfire]

I like the Izzet one drop. It makes countering your instants and sorceries much less appealing.

The Rakdos one drop better not suck. I predict a 1/1 with Unleash. Hopefully it is even better than that.

[Aggro_zombies]

What's interesting is that all these hybrid one mana cards all involved doing something to/for instants or sorceries. Wonder what the u/w r/b & g/b ones are going to do.
The B/G one has a zero-mana Scavenge cost.

I'm not sure this is part of that cycle since the others are uncommons, though.

[Nidd]

The Elemental is a card I'll have to watch closely.

Maybe it's Tarmogoyf, maybe it's Lorescale Coatl. I think it's too early to tell.