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[Kjell]

It removes Umezawa's Jitte and Batterskull, shrinks Knight of the Reliquary to 2/2, shrinks Nimble Mongoose to 1/1 and shrinks Tarmogoyf to at most a 2/3 if all you have in your GY are lands and creatures usually and it increases the critical number of hate cards to ~8 when playing against Reanimator or Dredge.

Well, Tarmogoyf is more of a 3/4 if you use this while having lands and creatures in your own graveyard.

[Annatar]

The 3rd ability is a complete beating against Elves. I mean, on their combo turn they drop about a billion creatures into play before they get to their finisher (probably Emrakul). Wouldn't it be sweet to just blow them out when the annihilator trigger is on the stack? "Are you dead? Nope, you are"! :tongue:

[Malchar]

It's not that crazy in goblins. You're basically paying 2 mana instead of the mana cost of a goblin in your hand. You also lose synergy because the charm isn't a goblin.

However, since you also get the other utilities, I think that it might see play. There aren't very many matchups where having artifact destruction and graveyard removal are both dead effects. The charm is definitely going to have numerous applications in every game. The fact that you can also use the charm to deal them damage directly and sneak in a goblin is just icing on the cake. It's also an instant.

The direct damage also has applications against zombie tokens from dredge and storm players using empty the warrens.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135662&stc=1&d=1347763388
Better than expected, I would say.

Dealing damage while running red shouldn't be too hard. The casting cost really sucks, though.

I have no idea if there's a decent way to abuse the last ability in its colors, but I doubt it's useful in Legacy.

EDH guys probably did probably just wet their pants, though.

[rufus]

...
Dealing damage while running red shouldn't be too hard. The casting cost really sucks, though.

I have no idea if there's a decent way to abuse the last ability in its colors, but I doubt it's useful in Legacy.

EDH guys probably did probably just wet their pants, though.

There are a couple of creatures with X casting costs or multikicker... like Maga, Traitor to Mortals.

The trick is finding cards that are good with, and without him. Critters with alternative cc like Shriekmaw and Tombstalker could work well.

Considering he's got evasion, and lots of power that last ability can do a number of things like cast any morph creature face down for free.

[Nihil Credo]

Any guildleader would need to be completely ridonkolous to be playable in Legacy despite a CCDD (at least!) mana cost: there aren't many decks in the format that (a) can regularly afford to cast a 4-mana guy and (b) don't use more than a couple of off-colour or colourless lands.

I'd say the colour combinations with the best chances would be UW (Miracle or Stoneblade control) and the three from the BWG wedge (Rock-type decks). Three of those are out, Orzhov is still a possibility but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

[Amon Amarth]

Holy shit Rakdos makes those other guild leaders look like bitches. Jesus, that guy's a fucking honey badger. The card is way better than anyone thought. Color me impressed.

[AndyTron]

This guy seems good enough to do for Rakdos what Jace, TMS did for blue; singlehandedly turn the color(s) around. At least in standard. He even turns rakdos charm's third mode into a ritual and he can potentially put large artifact creatures into play for free. All in all a really well designed card.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

If Rakdos isn't a fake, he's pretty interesting. Not really great, but certainly the most mechanically flavorful guild-leader, and the one with most unique design. The other ones, save Jarad, look like phone-ins. The thing is, he's a trap. His reducing the cost of creatures when being aggressive lures players into making bad deckbuilding decisions, like making a deck with this guy and stuffing it full of fatties to take advantage of the ability. In addition to being very much a "win-more" scenario, it leaves you open to having a lot of dead cards in hand when everything doesn't go according to plan.

The real thing to look at is how he functions as, essentially, a 6/6 Flying, Trample for RRBB. That's nothing to sneeze at, and he could certainly top out the curve of a R/B Standard aggro deck. The problem is, he faces stiff competition in the form of Falkenrath Aristocrat. She immediately can impact the board, and has the means to protect herself as well. Ol' Rakdos here sits pretty for a turn, and can't protect himself. Yes, that is how stupid Magic: Entering the Battlefield has become...a 6/6 Flying, Trample for four mana, with a negligible "drawback", isn't absolutely astounding because he doesn't provide immediate value or protect himself. Still, it's at least some really cool design, which is always welcome in a color combo that typically receives nothing but derptastic aggro.

PS: One of Rakdos' clauses was supposedly the original guild mechanic, "paincasting". I'm not sure whether it was the reducing mana costs or the powerful effects that can only be cast if opponents have lost life, but both seem far more interesting than the godawful Unleash. Too bad Wizards got cold feet and replaced it at the last moment. Both would have been interesting, powerful, and much more in flavor.

[Malchar]

[snip]

Falkenrath Aristocrat still dies to lots of stuff, like oblivion ring and tragic slip. While I agree that haste is very nice, Rakdos can still impact the board immediately. After it resolves, you can cast another creature at reduced cost immediately, even before they have a chance to kill him.

I think that Rakdos has some limited potential in a competitive deck, but I agree that he's going to be a huge trap for most players.

[Awaclus]

PS: One of Rakdos' clauses was supposedly the original guild mechanic, "paincasting". I'm not sure whether it was the reducing mana costs or the powerful effects that can only be cast if opponents have lost life, but both seem far more interesting than the godawful Unleash. Too bad Wizards got cold feet and replaced it at the last moment. Both would have been interesting, powerful, and much more in flavor.
Well, I can see why they changed it. Most likely it would've been the drawback, and keywords that are drawbacks aren't cool (even casual players don't want to build a "paincasting deck" when paincasting is a drawback). If it was the "spells cost less" ability instead, it would've been pretty crazy with multiple of those cards on the battlefield at the same time - "Bolt you, then I'll drop this Emrakul for free".

[Barook]

Just throwing in this idea:

What about using cards like Goryo's Vengeance and Shallow Grave as quick enablers? A hasty Rakdos can hit for 6, reducing creature CC by :6:.

[rufus]

What about using cards like Goryo's Vengeance and Shallow Grave as quick enablers? A hasty Rakdos can hit for 6, reducing creature CC by :6:.

In that case, Emrakul hits harder, and Griselbrand gets more cards.

[bowvamp]

Yeah, I'm not sure what you all see in Rakdos. He's a beater for four, which means you really want to play him at the top of your curve and not later. It'll be harder and harder for your creatures/sources of damage to make it the longer the game goes. That means he's just going to sit there the turn you cast him. Unless you play colorless creatures. In that case, why would you make your mana base cruddy enough to play this guy? How is he not the epitome of win-more?

This guy will see zero play. (Once again, not talking about limited/draft here).
Ramp decks don't want him because he decreases flexibility and has ridiculous requirements and they generally don't drop >1 bombs a turn. Other decks don't want him because he's a conditional fatty with a ridiculous mana cost.

[lyracian]

The four coloured mana is a bit difficult but Rakdos is a Abyssal Persecutor with no actual drawbacks (once you have the mana to cast him). Maybe a Red Death variant of "The Gate" could make use of him?

Rakdos Charm is looking good for Goblin Sideboard just because it is a Shatter with other options. It ends up reading -
Pick one; A) Beat Dredge or Reanimator; B) Destroy Batterskull or Jitte; C) Activate Lackey and/or beat Elves.

[Malchar]

Just throwing in this idea:

What about using cards like Goryo's Vengeance and Shallow Grave as quick enablers? A hasty Rakdos can hit for 6, reducing creature CC by :6:.

You could try to chain brass heralds together or something like that. Emrakul and Griselbrand might be better win conditions, but perhaps if you could do some kind of instant-win combo, then Rakdos would have merit. I can't come up with anything that actually works in legacy though.

It will have amazing potential in standard of course.

[Valtrix]

Rakdos does not seem playable in legacy, but in general you don't need to have large creatures to take advantage of Rakdos in a deck. Any deck playing him is likely aggressive, so if you have access to BBRR to play him, it means next turn you will (almost certainly) make your opponent lose some life. This lets you accelerate out whatever is left in your hand. He doesn't really need to enable big creatures, since playing multiple 2-5cc creatures in a single turn is likely to put a ton of pressure on your opponent if they don't have a wrath effect.

[Roman Candle]

Just thinking, is there a way Goblins could be retooled slightly to play Rakdos and combo off? Dealing three damage with Rakdos in play, then chaining 1-mana Matrons and Ringleaders seems kinda sweet. Rakdos can also be Vialed in without having to deal the opponent damage, pre-combat so you can actually attack with the 1-mana Ringleaders/Matrons (the latter only if you have Warchief/Lord). It would probably take a serious retooling of the manabase, though, and I doubt it would be worth it, but it's at least an option.

The Vial thing in particular seems kind of sweet, is there a black/red midrange Vial deck? Probably not.

[Aggro_zombies]

Just thinking, is there a way Goblins could be retooled slightly to play Rakdos and combo off? Dealing three damage with Rakdos in play, then chaining 1-mana Matrons and Ringleaders seems kinda sweet. Rakdos can also be Vialed in without having to deal the opponent damage, pre-combat so you can actually attack with the 1-mana Ringleaders/Matrons (the latter only if you have Warchief/Lord). It would probably take a serious retooling of the manabase, though, and I doubt it would be worth it, but it's at least an option.

The Vial thing in particular seems kind of sweet, is there a black/red midrange Vial deck? Probably not.
Rakdos is competing with Abyssal Persecutor for the four-mana slot, though, and Persecutor is going to win on color requirements and ease of casting.

I'm assuming the original "paincast" mechanic MaRo mentioned was the Affinity for Damage part of Rakdos's ability. If that's the case, it's not hard to see why it was changed; it's not only very, very Spike-y, it makes the guild very awkward to design because you want to fill it with cheap aggro guys on the one hand and expensive cards with Paincast on the other. The guild would probably not work that will in Limited since the Paincast cards would be too awkward without the aggro guys and the aggro guys don't necessarily need the Paincast cards to win. Unleash is probably the better mechanic for people into optimizing/min-maxing.

[Malchar]

Just thinking, is there a way Goblins could be retooled slightly to play Rakdos and combo off? Dealing three damage with Rakdos in play, then chaining 1-mana Matrons and Ringleaders seems kinda sweet. Rakdos can also be Vialed in without having to deal the opponent damage, pre-combat so you can actually attack with the 1-mana Ringleaders/Matrons (the latter only if you have Warchief/Lord). It would probably take a serious retooling of the manabase, though, and I doubt it would be worth it, but it's at least an option.

The Vial thing in particular seems kind of sweet, is there a black/red midrange Vial deck? Probably not.

You can already "combo off" with goblin warchief. In fact, warchief is often better than rakdos:
1. You can play warchief a turn earlier than rakdos
2. Warchief gives haste
3. Reducing costs by more than :1: suffers diminishing returns quickly because you get bottlenecked on colored mana.

In goblins, it's difficult to damage the opponent without attacking, so the only way you can get cost reduction with rakdos is to attack. If you play all your dudes after that, then you have to wait a whole turn before you get to attack again. With warchief, you can frequently cast everything in the same turn and attack immediately with haste.

Warchief is clearly one of the best cards in goblins. The question is whether or not it's worth it to run additional copies of a similar but weaker effect. Rakdos seems so much worse that I don't think it's worth it. It's not a goblin, and it doesn't really help to solve any problems that the deck is currently facing.

The problem with Rakdos in legacy is that it takes quite a bit of time and effort to get him into play. Once you accomplish that, all he does it make your other fatties cost less. You should probably just cut out the middleman and sneak the fatties into play directly. I mean, he costs 1 more mana than show and tell, and you have to do more work to "go off" with him. If there were some way to chain artifact creatures together and win immediately then he might have merit, but I don't see such a combo existing.

[rufus]

...
The problem with Rakdos in legacy is that it takes quite a bit of time and effort to get him into play. Once you accomplish that, all he does it make your other fatties cost less. ....

At 6/6 flying trample, Radkos can hit pretty hard. Why would you want to drop others if he's already on the table and hitting.

[Zand]

Rakdos is cool, shame he isn't legacy playable. Maybe if wasteland and karakas didn't exist, even then...

[baghdadbob]

I personally think the guy is playable at 4 mana. I'm going to be trying out red/black again for sure. I would definitely play him as a 1 of.

[Greenpoe]

He's not playable because black already has tons of fantastic 4cc creatures, such as Phyrexian Obliterator (if you're not running Wasteland), Abyssal Persecutor and Lashwrithe (if you want resilience over power). He's got a worse casting cost than Phyrexian Obliterator but without the "Moat" effect that Obliterator has.

[Gheizen64]

Rest in peace 1W
Enchantment
Exile all graveyard. Whenever a card would go in a graveyard from anywhere, exile it.

Probably the best of the crypt variants for your SB. Morningtide+planar void in a single card is pretty good.

Some other notable cards:

Eletrickery R
Instant
Deal 1 damage to target creature you don't control
Overload 1R

Green get a 3/1 vigilance for 1G
Red get a 3/2 can't block for 1R (2/1 unleash)
Black get a B enchantment that's a strictly better the Rack (deal 3 damage on 1 or less card in hand).
BG Regrowth, uncommon.

No really good card as of now is spoiled.

[Barook]

Rest in peace 1W
Enchantment
Exile all graveyard. Whenever a card would go in a graveyard from anywhere, exile it.

Probably the best of the crypt variants for your SB. Morningtide+planar void in a single card is pretty good.
To be fair: Planar Void is a triggered ability instead of an replacement effect. It's more like a Leyline of the Void for both sides.

That said, RIP is amazing, especially with E-Tutor.

[Gheizen64]

LMAO the Rakdos 1 mana hybrid drop is a 1/1 Unleash. Strictly worse than Diregraf Ghoul. Sry red, you have to suck forever. Meanwhile UW hybrid get amazing creatures, you suck :cool:

GB get also an amazing 1 drop hybrid

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135734

[alekill]

Deathrite shaman seems pretty nifty I don't think it's legacy playable but I do want to play it somewhere.

[rufus]

LMAO the Rakdos 1 mana hybrid drop is a 1/1 Unleash. Strictly worse than Diregraf Ghoul. Sry red, you have to suck forever. Meanwhile UW hybrid get amazing creatures, you suck :cool:

GB get also an amazing 1 drop hybrid...

While I largely agree with the color balance concerns, it's hardly fair to compare the Radkos common and the Golgari rare.

[Barook]

While I largely agree with the color balance concerns, it's hardly fair to compare the Radkos common and the Golgari rare.
Except the Rakdos rare also sucks ass.

Deathrite Shaman looks alright, if not really good. Think of it as a black BoP that can also nuke your opponent, Grim Lavamancer-style. Fetchlands and Wastelands on both sides should be enough to feed it. As for the green part, Ooze does a better job in terms of creature card hating in the GY.

Rule question: Is the Shaman's first ability instant or mana source speed? :really:

Edit: The design of the Unleash cards is highly unimpressive. Even with such a bad keyword, more could have been done.

[Aggro_zombies]

Rule question: Is the Shaman's first ability instant or mana source speed? :really:
It has a target, so presumably instant speed.

[Barook]

It has a target, so presumably instant speed.
Right, my bad.

About RIP:

What about running this over Tormod's Crypt/Grafdigger's Cage and a single Helm of Obedience for a pseudo-instant kill?
That doesn't sound too shabby, considering you can use E-Tutor to fetch both pieces while not having to run black (for LotV), enabling a potential AWESOME splash.

[catmint]

The shaman is a really cool card. Does many different things, but still weak enough that you might not want to spend a removal on it if the deck that plays it follows up with a more powerful creature. In a format with fetchland it is a nice noble hieararch. Hoses Snapcaster mage & Dredge while keeping goose, ooze, goyf & knight small. Acts kind of like a relic.

If the abilities would be without investing mana or the black one would give -2 toughness to a creature it might even have seen some play in legacy.

Edit: RIP makes Helm better, but its still a 4 mana artifact. It's much better versus taxing counters to play a 1 mana artifact and pay 3 to activate.

[Greenpoe]

Sundering Growth definitely looks playable in Legacy SB's. I can see D&T, Maverick and possibly Nic Fit playing this as a 2-of SB. Naturalize and Clone in one card seems pretty solid. Even if Mav already has Pridemage, this will give you an answer to Humility.

[joemauer]

Rest in peace 1W
Enchantment
Exile all graveyard. Whenever a card would go in a graveyard from anywhere, exile it.

Probably the best of the crypt variants for your SB. Morningtide+planar void in a single card is pretty good.



Really? What next?
A blue instant for one mana that makes your opponent lose the game if he has twenty or more cards in his graveyard? Why not really stick it to dredge?

It seems that every other set has efficient graveyard hate. Every other set seems to get some sort of storm.deck hate. Pretty soon Show and Tell decks will be the only viable combo decks in Legacy because of the hate against the other combo decks that Wizards keeps churning out. When Show and Tell becomes the only viable combo deck is probably when Show and Tell will get banned so we are left with no combo decks at all in Legacy.

[jrw1985]

Electrickery

OK, this card seems awesome. It's spot removal T1 and an asymmetrical sweeper T2, both at instant speed.

How much play do you think this card will get?

The Overload mechanic makes this card a 1-sided sweeper for x/1 dorks, which is pretty much 75% of the format. Follow it up with a Relic of Progenitus and it becomes a Mongoose killer as well. Of course it will be good against Goblin tokens and Spirit Tokens and Maverick. It can kill a Delver before it flips or it can wipe RUG's board with the help of Relic. It can sap a Goblin Lackey or clear out all those Krenko Tokens. Or Empty the Warrens tokens. It wrecks Elves.

Dios Mio. This card might be the shit. The flexibility of the Overload mechanic is just awesome. This could very well find a home in the SB of my Goblin deck.

[Darkenslight]

Frankly, I'm more interested in the 1-drop tap spell that's a creature-Gigadrowse for your opponent for 2U. Because that's an awesome Merfolk strike spell.

[Gheizen64]

Thinking more about it, the shaman is amazing. Keep those mongoose always 1/1, give you even more reach, can even ramp you if needed. The gain life ability seems the worst one, going to try him in a RB deck. He even removes lands from your opponent's graveyard. Talk about amazing lol.

[Mirrislegend]

Rest in peace 1W
Enchantment
Exile all graveyards. Whenever a card would go in a graveyard from anywhere, exile it.


Does anyone else see how busted this card is?!? It turns off the primary beatsticks of 2 out of 3 of the tier one decks! This changes everything! Any decks that is not dependant on the gy can run this and AUTOMATICALLY beat any deck with even the slightest gy dependance. This will rock Legacy to it's core. This card is a mistake to print.

[xfxf]

Rest in peace may read RIP for Mongoose, Tarmogoyf and Snapcaster Mage. What's up with the extreme graveyard hate in this set btw?

[Greenpoe]

Inaction Injunction (1U - Instant - Detain target creature & draw a card) could be decent in some tempo deck or perhaps Bant. It's like an improved Ice.

[TorpidNinja]

Inaction Injunction (1U - Instant - Detain target creature & draw a card) could be decent in some tempo deck or perhaps Bant. It's like an improved Ice.

It's a sorcery.

[Gheizen64]

Does anyone else see how busted this card is?!? It turns off the primary beatsticks of 2 out of 3 of the tier one decks! This changes everything! Any decks that is not dependant on the gy can run this and AUTOMATICALLY beat any deck with even the slightest gy dependance. This will rock Legacy to it's core. This card is a mistake to print.

Just like Grafdigger's Cage did? This card is very good but hosers have always proved insufficient in the past. It also does next to nothing against a lot decks, see goblin, Merfolk, Sneak and Show and miracle control. Its effect against Maverick isn't anything to write home about either.

[Rizso]

Does anyone else see how busted this card is?!? It turns off the primary beatsticks of 2 out of 3 of the tier one decks! This changes everything! Any decks that is not dependant on the gy can run this and AUTOMATICALLY beat any deck with even the slightest gy dependance. This will rock Legacy to it's core. This card is a mistake to print.



The card pretty much hoses all unfair decks. Nothing really wrong with it tbh.

[Aggro_zombies]

Rest in peace may read RIP for Mongoose, Tarmogoyf and Snapcaster Mage. What's up with the extreme graveyard hate in this set btw?
R&D wants to make sure you know Snapcaster Mage was a mistake.

[cheerios]

Am I correct that stifle can counter Rest in Peace's exile all graveyards trigger?

[Michael Keller]

Rest in Peace is cool with Helm of Obedience, too.

It is a Replacement Effect, by the way. Gheizen64 incorrectly stated its actual text (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135708&d=1347878083).

[Zalren]

Rest In Peace + Energy Field with a full set of Enlightened Tutor, hmmm I might have to make a new deck.

[(nameless one)]

Rest In Peace + Energy Field with a full set of Enlightened Tutor, hmmm I might have to make a new deck.

New age Parfait anyone?

[Esper3k]

Rest in Peace is cool with Helm of Obedience, too.

I don't think so? Leyline / Helm works because Leyline is a replacement effect so the cards never actually go to the graveyard. The way RIP is worded, it's just a standard triggered ability to me?

[rufus]

I don't think so? Leyline / Helm works because Leyline is a replacement effect so the cards never actually go to the graveyard. The way RIP is worded, it's just a standard triggered ability to me?

As spoiled RIP replaces cards going to graveyards too, so it works. The endless variety of hate seems like a tacit admission they screwed up on stuff.

[Michael Keller]

Rest in Peace's text clearly indicates that it has, in fact, a Replacement Effect built into it.

From the Comp:


614.1a. Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

[jam3sbob]

RIP, first ability triggered, second ability replacement.

i think

[Michael Keller]

RIP, first ability triggered, second ability replacement.

i think

Correct.

[Lord Seth]

Does anyone else see how busted this card is?!? It turns off the primary beatsticks of 2 out of 3 of the tier one decks! This changes everything! Any decks that is not dependant on the gy can run this and AUTOMATICALLY beat any deck with even the slightest gy dependance. This will rock Legacy to it's core. This card is a mistake to print.Remember how a bunch of people were saying this sort of thing about Grafdigger's Cage?

Remember how Grafidgger's Cage didn't do any of that?

Yeah. This card isn't going to rock Legacy "to its core" any more than Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage did.

[sdematt]

It might be a useful tool in Death and Taxes, but otherwise, meh.

-Matt

[dontbiteitholmes]

It might be a useful tool in Death and Taxes, but otherwise, meh.

-Matt

Enchantress

[Esper3k]

As spoiled RIP replaces cards going to graveyards too, so it works. The endless variety of hate seems like a tacit admission they screwed up on stuff.


Rest in Peace's text clearly indicates that it has, in fact, a Replacement Effect built into it.

From the Comp:

Sorry, I was looking at the text of RIP that was posted in one of the earlier posts, which didn't have "instead" in it.

[(nameless one)]

It might be a useful tool in Death and Taxes, but otherwise, meh.

-Matt

And Quinn decks (replacing Painter-Stone as its "oops I win button" along with Helm of Obedience for more utility). And to some extent, Parfait due to the same reason.

[sdematt]

Fine, so a few decks, but not things that make up 15% of the format at any one time, therefore, sky is NOT falling.

-Matt

[Greenpoe]

Soul Tithe
1w
Enchantment - Aura Uncommon
Enchant nonland permanent
At the beginning of the upkeep of enchanted permanent's controller, that player sacrifices it unless he or she pays {X}, where X is its converted mana cost.

Could be playable in Stax, replacing Oblivion Ring. They love taxing your mana in a thousand ways, so this could be good.

[mrjumbo03]

Remember how a bunch of people were saying this sort of thing about Grafdigger's Cage?

Remember how Grafidgger's Cage didn't do any of that?

Yeah. This card isn't going to rock Legacy "to its core" any more than Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage did.

Grafdigger's is different because it left you with a graveyard to work with whereas RIP doesn't. It's both reactive and proactive at the same time. It won't be the most prevalent GY-hate due to it having W in its cost and because of the fact that it affects both players therefore decks wanting to use their GY's wont touch this. But it is clearly an upgrade to what's out there.

[evanmartyr]

Except the Rakdos rare also sucks ass.

Deathrite Shaman looks alright, if not really good. Think of it as a black BoP that can also nuke your opponent, Grim Lavamancer-style. Fetchlands and Wastelands on both sides should be enough to feed it. As for the green part, Ooze does a better job in terms of creature card hating in the GY.

Rule question: Is the Shaman's first ability instant or mana source speed? :really:

Edit: The design of the Unleash cards is highly unimpressive. Even with such a bad keyword, more could have been done.

If the Shaman could exile anything for a mana, but could exile specific things for the life gain/damage effects, it'd be excellent. I don't see it being terribly relevant anywhere but Legacy, which is a shame. It's so cool =/

Regarding the unleash guys...I dunno. It seems like they could have easily had first strike, or haste, or something and been more than fine.

EDIT: Just saw Splatter Thug. 2R for a 2/2 First Striker with Unleash. Dragon Stompy?

[xfxf]

I aggree, I think it's an upgrade. I mean playing this rather than Cage or Crypt can give the white decks a few options to throw curved balls against RUG and Maverick as well. If playing an Enlightened Tutor sideboard throwing a singleton Energy Field in there against tribal decks along with your existing gy hate could be something to be discovered as well.

[wcm8]

RIP is also a pseudo-Humility against RUG, you just need to reserve your removal to pick off the Delvers. While I agree that it's not going to change the format as we know it, the incentive to play Goyf and/or Mongoose, especially in games 2 and 3, might go way down if WXx decks begin packing it in multiples.

[Aggro_zombies]

RIP is also a pseudo-Humility against RUG, you just need to reserve your removal to pick off the Delvers. While I agree that it's not going to change the format as we know it, the incentive to play Goyf and/or Mongoose, especially in games 2 and 3, might go way down if WXx decks begin packing it in multiples.
The only decks that will run this will be fringe decks like Enchantress or white decks with Enlightened Tutor packages in the sideboard. This is arguably better there than Crypt or Relic since it's a replacement effect and can't be Needled.

EDIT: Actually, I can't think of that many decks that have Enlightened Tutor that don't want to use their graveyards in some way. The symmetry really kills this card.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Seems like RIP could be boss in Vintage. Now that Null Rod is terrible MD material it could juice up a deck like Mono-W hatebears by taking that slot and improving your game against Dredge and any decks that abuse the yard or play Goyf.

[wcm8]

The only decks that will run this will be fringe decks like Enchantress or white decks with Enlightened Tutor packages in the sideboard. This is arguably better there than Crypt or Relic since it's a replacement effect and can't be Needled.

I don't see why any deck playing White wouldn't want this card in the sideboard, Enlightened Tutor or not. UWx control decks can just side out their Snapcasters. Maverick doesn't -need- their KotRs to always be huge, especially in most graveyard matchups.

Its interaction with Energy Field and Helm of Obedience actually make it plausible to play it main deck in some sort of UWx control deck. I mean, enough decks are hurt by it on its own, and with these sorts of combos it seems playable beyond just being a fringe sideboard option.

[Cire]

4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Rest In peace
4 Energy Field
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Terminus

4 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island

Something Like that?

[Gheizen64]

Seems like RIP could be boss in Vintage. Now that Null Rod is terrible MD material it could juice up a deck like Mono-W hatebears by taking that slot and improving your game against Dredge and any decks that abuse the yard or play Goyf.

I think vintage would prefer Grafdigger. It's more maindeckable as it hose tinker and Oath also. This is more SB material.

[FieryBalrog]

Deathrite Shaman is a really sweet card. They're really pushing one drops.

Despite some anti-synergy with KOTR this looks like a cool one drop for Junk/Rock decks, both mana-dork and great utility in one.

[Barook]

4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Rest In peace
4 Energy Field
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Terminus

4 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island

Something Like that?
Why don't you include Counterbalance? And Wheel of Sun and Moon seems excessive with already 4 RIP and 4 E-Tutor. Why not run a Helm of Obedience as tutor target instead?

[Shawon]

Shrieking Afflication :b:
Enchantment
At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, if that player has one or fewer cards in hand, he or she loses 3 life.


Does this obsolete The Rack? Most decks that play The Rack are black anyway, and this enchantment doesn't target unlike Rack, so it avoids protection spells such as Leyline of Sanctity and Runed Halo. It's worse than The Rack is your opponent has two cards, because The Rack deals 1 dmg and Afflication deals 0. But if they have one or zero cards, and Afflication is strictly better than The Rack.

[Mirrislegend]

Snaps was a mistake that Grafdiggers Cage sufficiently covered.

RIP is over the top. It stops all past and future GY use in a game, which no other single GY hate card has ever done.

This is insane. Even the slightest use of the graveyard is now invalidated. Aside from obvious things like Storm and Dredge, look at the victims! Knight of the Reliquary is dead. Tarmogoyf. Nimble Mongoose. Lingering Souls. Grim Lavamancer. Life from the Loam. Pretty much the core of 75+ percent of tier 1 and 1.5 decks. These cards are hurt or hindered by classic GY hate. RIP makes these cards 100% DEAD.

[Koby]

Does this obsolete The Rack? Most decks that play The Rack are black anyway, and this enchantment doesn't target unlike Rack, so it avoids protection spells such as Leyline of Sanctity and Runed Halo. It's worse than The Rack is your opponent has two cards, because The Rack deals 1 dmg and Afflication deals 0. But if they have one or zero cards, and Afflication is strictly better than The Rack.

No it doesn't. It supplements it rather. The Rack is more meaningful for X<3 than this card for X<2. The Rack only targets when it enters play. Note that Affliction would also be shut-off by Runed Halo (damage) exactly the same way The Rack would.

[(nameless one)]

4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Rest In peace
4 Energy Field
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Terminus

4 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island

Something Like that?

I'd replace Entreat with Helm of Obedience.

[Barook]

Note that Affliction would also be shut-off by Runed Halo (damage) exactly the same way The Rack would.
Except it isn't:


At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, if that player has one or fewer cards in hand, he or she loses 3 life.

[Cire]

Barook & Nameless one...

How about:

3 Helm of Obedience
4 Rest In peace
4 Energy Field
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counter Balance

4 Brainstorm
2 Entreat the Angels

3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island

[Koby]

Except it isn't:

Interesting. I stand corrected. The big question - who's playing Runed Halo enough for this subtlety to matter?

[Final Fortune]

Rest in Peace isn't that impressive, if you're paying 2 mana for your graveyard hate then you'd better get a huge payoff out of the deal otherwise you're risking being blown out before you can play it or Cabal Therapied etc.

Edit: Helm of Obediance combo would be pretty sweet tho', it's essentially a combo piece that isn't entirely dead without the other half.

That Deathrite Shaman and Blistercoil Weird look really playable to me, I'd like to try Deathrite Shaman as a Noble Hierarch replacement just because it has a built in soft counter vs. Reanimator and Snapcaster Mage. And while obviously it's not going to stop a graveyard based deck in and of itself, every little bit of disruption helps to delay their gameplan and lets you find something more damning against them.

[joven]

Deathrite Shaman seems fantastic. It's a mana elf for B! It's playable mana acceleration for Black! In Legacy where there are many Fetchlands and Wastelands in the graveyards the condition might not be a problem.

[Barook]

Snaps was a mistake that Grafdiggers Cage sufficiently covered.

RIP is over the top. It stops all past and future GY use in a game, which no other single GY hate card has ever done.

This is insane. Even the slightest use of the graveyard is now invalidated. Aside from obvious things like Storm and Dredge, look at the victims! Knight of the Reliquary is dead. Tarmogoyf. Nimble Mongoose. Lingering Souls. Grim Lavamancer. Life from the Loam. Pretty much the core of 75+ percent of tier 1 and 1.5 decks. These cards are hurt or hindered by classic GY hate. RIP makes these cards 100% DEAD.
To be fair - KotR can still fetch Wastes and utility lands and you can still squeeze some tokens out of Lingering Souls.


Rest in Peace isn't that impressive, if you're paying 2 mana for your graveyard hate then you'd better get a huge payoff out of the deal otherwise you're risking being blown out before you can play it or Cabal Therapied etc.
I'd say that GY nuke + permanent GY hate is definitely a huge payoff. If you run it out of the Sb with E-Tutor, they also can't snag it if you go T1, Tutor, T2, RIP.

[sdematt]

Rest in Peace is fine, but I still don't think it's great. If you're running White and you're not playing Goyf or Knight, then it's a good card, but most people aren't doing this.

For E. tutor based Control, you're most likely running Thopters, so you wouldn't want this card. At all.

-Matt

[lyracian]

Interesting. I stand corrected. The big question - who's playing Runed Halo enough for this subtlety to matter?It also works against energy field and is harder to destroy than the Rack; No Goblins destroying it or Smash to Smithereens from Burn or melting it down. Even with doing less damage at hand=2 I think it is overall a very small boost for Pox Decks.


Deathrite Shaman seems fantastic. It's a mana elf for B! It's playable mana acceleration for Black! In Legacy where there are many Fetchlands and Wastelands in the graveyards the condition might not be a problem.It seems a very nice Lavamancer variant. Can generate mana or deal damage (to opponent) or occasionally gain you life. Also that extra point of Toughness is nice to have. Not sure it will make the final cut into a deck but I like the card.

[Arianrhod]

Rest in Peace is fine, but I still don't think it's great. If you're running White and you're not playing Goyf or Knight, then it's a good card, but most people aren't doing this.

For E. tutor based Control, you're most likely running Thopters, so you wouldn't want this card. At all.

-Matt

We'll show Wizards what "gentlemans' agreement" means yet.

In a more serious manner of speaking, Matt (and others before him) are right with this card: it's incredibly dangerous to our current understanding of the fabric of the legacy format itself, but there isn't really a deck that's going to want to play it. Using and abusing the graveyard is too intrinsic to the format -- everyone thought the sky was falling with Cage, too, and see how much of an impact that's had. RIP is certainly powerful, but I feel like it will have much more impact in Vintage than it will in Legacy.

And who knows, it might even get Zur banned in EDH (something something helm combo).

[Vacrix]

Deathrite Shaman seems fantastic. It's a mana elf for B! It's playable mana acceleration for Black! In Legacy where there are many Fetchlands and Wastelands in the graveyards the condition might not be a problem.I think the conditions are actually really awesome. Against stuff like Mongoose in Thresh they are going to have a hard time getting to 7 cards when you can remove 1 per turn for a relevant effect. That makes a manadork a threat instead of just an accelerant. Same goes for any deck that likes having a Loam in the yard. Snapcaster? Its just a vanilla 2/1 if you remove its targets. Past in Flames? IGG? Reanimator? This guy is a powerful 1 mana weapon against quite a lot in the format. Its no solution but the fact that its a mana dork makes it maindeck material. I really think this could be the new and improved Noble Hierarch. It functions as a manadork early and if it sticks around it hits stuff in the yard or works as Lavamancer-esque reach once its outlived its usefulness as an accelerant. Not to mention it blocks Lackey quite well as a 1/2.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Quick rules question on Rest in Peace: If I have Rest in Peace out, a board full of stuff, and my opponent pops a P. Deed for 2+, is there a way I can order the passage of my board to the yard so that (some of) my stuff isn't exiled?

[Amon Amarth]

I think the infy GY hate cards in ever set is getting kinda old by now. Formats like Legacy and Modern already have a ton of it. We don't need more. The vendetta against decks like Dredge is pretty stupid. I'm more sympathetic to hate cards against decks like Storm but it's only a matter of time before we are over saturated by those too.

[Teknique]

I think the infy GY hate cards in ever set is getting kinda old by now. Formats like Legacy and Modern already have a ton of it. We don't need more. The vendetta against decks like Dredge is pretty stupid. I'm more sympathetic to hate cards against decks like Storm but it's only a matter of time before we are over saturated by those too.

It has nothing to do with a vendetta against legacy gy-based decks. They've rotated back into a gy-centric standard format, so they need to print playable gy hate.

[Vacrix]

I think the infy GY hate cards in ever set is getting kinda old by now. Formats like Legacy and Modern already have a ton of it. We don't need more. The vendetta against decks like Dredge is pretty stupid. I'm more sympathetic to hate cards against decks like Storm but it's only a matter of time before we are over saturated by those too.They are trying to print cards though that function as hate without being purely sideboard material. Thalia is a great example. This guy is probably the best thing since Thalia if not better.

It shuts down a ridiculous amount of shit and many decks will be forced to remove it to function on their own terms. Otherwise, you can remove Reanimator targets, whatever is most important to remove against Dredge, Loam or specific lands, Snapcaster targets, anti-Surgical tech, IGG/PIF, Eternal Witness target, Punishing Fire, Intuition, anti-threshold/Goyf/KoTR tech... the list is endless and against most decks it has an application of some sort related to its conditions of removing things from the yard.

[Amon Amarth]

It has nothing to do with a vendetta against legacy gy-based decks. They've rotated back into a gy-centric standard format, so they need to print playable gy hate.

Cage and Crypt aren't enough? I seriously doubt that.

[Oiolosse]

I am very stoked about the Shaman as well but remember that you must remove a land to tap for mana. This will make for awkward hands. A solid hand with no fetches and this will be annoying. Sure the opponent could have fetches but if you are banking that they do and they see that* then they may be able to nerf your first several crucial turns.

An opponent losing 2 life AND removing relevant instants and sorceries (or useless ones on your side) is incredible IMO. I can't wait to crack this set open, I haven't really drafted consistently since Alara. I'm sure that'll change.

[Lord Seth]

Random question about Rest In Peace: How does this interact with Progenitus? Does it get exiled or go into the library?

EDIT: Never mind, figured it out, it's right in Comprehensive Rules 419.9a.

[Teknique]

Cage and Crypt aren't enough? I seriously doubt that.

Because Griselbrand wasn't a present for Reanimator and Dredge.

And this has been said a thousand times before, but just because there are many graveyard hate cards, it doesn't mean they will all be played. People shit their trousers over cage and that card is way more legacy playable, yet has not made too much of an impact.

[catmint]

I don't think RIP will do a lot to the format. Can't think of a major deck wanting it and I don't think some crazy combos will push fringe decks to become a tier deck. From a RUG perspective sure RIP would hurt, but I would like it if my opponents spends an enlightened tutor on a card I can then counter or stifle, while I keep beating him down. I like the card because it gives brewers a lot to work with and brings more occasional "wtf is he playing - i am not prepared" to tournaments.

Electrickery is interesting in RUG. Not going to the face, dealing only 1 and spending 1R for a 2 for 1 instead of R compared to forked bolt is a downside, but being the 1 mana instant removal for mother, Lackey,... while providing a sweeper for lingering souls, small goblins or maverick dorks for 1R is a big upside. Very often you do not even get the 2 for 1 with forked bolt and the higher casting cost make up for the fact that you can sweep all kinds of stuff. I considered and even saw Simoon played in RUG and this is strictly better. Casting Lingering Souls, Casting Jitte, equip jitte - Electrickery you...attack for 3. Can imagine running 1 MD replacing 1 forked botl and 1 in the sideboard (depending how the meta develops of course).

[Barook]

Shaman has also a cute interactions with Scryb Ranger, including producing black mana for the Shock effect. And both are GSZ-able.

[Amon Amarth]

Because Griselbrand wasn't a present for Reanimator and Dredge.

And this has been said a thousand times before, but just because there are many graveyard hate cards, it doesn't mean they will all be played. People shit their trousers over cage and that card is way more legacy playable, yet has not made too much of an impact.

This has nothing to do with "omg another gy hate reanimator is dead". It has to do with their design philosophy. Scavenging Ooze is a really good card. How long till we see something equivalent to that in other colors? What's worse, they can just keep printing more, better GY hate that all take specific answers to deal with; Chain of Vapor deals with some stuff but doesn't do much against RIP when it already exiles their GY.

They've stated many times how they think GY based strategies like Dredge aren't playing Magic. They obviously have no problem pushing these hosers very hard. Their just isn't any reason to inordinately punish decks like that when the hate present does a good job of keeping them down already.

[joemauer]

This has nothing to do with "omg another gy hate reanimator is dead". It has to do with their design philosophy. Scavenging Ooze is a really good card. How long till we see something equivalent to that in other colors? What's worse, they can just keep printing more, better GY hate that all take specific answers to deal with; Chain of Vapor deals with some stuff but doesn't do much against RIP when it already exiles their GY.

They've stated many times how they think GY based strategies like Dredge aren't playing Magic. They obviously have no problem pushing these hosers very hard. Their just isn't any reason to inordinately punish decks like that when the hate present does a good job of keeping them down already.

I agree with this post a bunch.

Every block post Lorwynn has had numberous graveyard hate printed, usually colorless to boot.

Shards:
Relic of Progenitus

Zendikar:
Ravenous Trap

Scars of Mirridon:
Nihil Spellbomb
Surgical Extraction

Innastrad:
Gravedigger's Cage

RtR:
Numberous have been spoiled in each color and it is just the first set of the block.

Let's not forget the commander decks that gave us Ooze.

Storm decks have been shat on too even with Mystical Tutor banned.
Ethersworn Canonist, Mindbreak Trap, Thalia, and Flusterstorm. I can't think of anything in the Scars block that got printed to nerf storm, not sure.

It is apparent that Wizards hates these types of decks. You don't see some colorless improved Engineered Plague to combat tribal decks being printed. We also missed out on an anti-Show and Tell trap in Zendikar.

Are all these cards being printed so Tom Lapile can win a Legacy tourney or something?

[Bignasty197]

I can't think of anything in the Scars block that got printed to nerf storm, not sure.



Mental Misstep

[Tammit67]

Mental Misstep

Lol, you. I completely forgot about that

[Fizzeler]

I agree with this post a bunch.

Every block post Lorwynn has had numberous graveyard hate printed, usually colorless to boot.

Shards:
Relic of Progenitus

Zendikar:
Ravenous Trap

Scars of Mirridon:
Nihil Spellbomb
Surgical Extraction

Innastrad:
Gravedigger's Cage

RtR:
Numberous have been spoiled in each color and it is just the first set of the block.

Let's not forget the commander decks that gave us Ooze.

Storm decks have been shat on too even with Mystical Tutor banned.
Ethersworn Canonist, Mindbreak Trap, Thalia, and Flusterstorm. I can't think of anything in the Scars block that got printed to nerf storm, not sure.

It is apparent that Wizards hates these types of decks. You don't see some colorless improved Engineered Plague to combat tribal decks being printed. We also missed out on an anti-Show and Tell trap in Zendikar.

Are all these cards being printed so Tom Lapile can win a Legacy tourney or something?

Even is Lorwyn/Shadowmoor there was Faerie Macabre

[dontbiteitholmes]

I'm hoping they'll at least have the decency to unban Dread Return and/or Grave Troll in Modern now.

[xfxf]

The negative effect of these gy hate cards will be I think the splash damage to non combo decks. Dryad Militant has mostly been dismissed but I'm sure some people will be brewing with it and it will see some degree of play. Some people will brew with RIP, some will brew with the shaman and I think the format will be somewhat like bruizar and Lemnear envisioned a couple weeks back - people playing maindeck graveyard hate. Not just to hate gy combo but to hose different things. If all these cards start seeing play a bit here a bit there especially RUG will be negatively effected by this. I also think that this will drive people away from Snapcaster-Esperblade variants towards the miracle top builds even more. RUG being hammered may prove dangerous for the format imo if that happens because than Omni-Show decks will have increasing effect on the format. These are all ifs obviously but with this set I'm very curious to see how it will turn out.

[BooleanLobster]

It doesn't matter how many sideboard 'yard/storm hosers they print. As long as the hosers remain in the sideboard, Dredge and Storm will ebb and flow with the sideboard space dedicated to them.

If you're up in arms about modern hoser cards, chill.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree with this post a bunch.

Every block post Lorwynn has had numberous graveyard hate printed, usually colorless to boot.

Shards:
Relic of Progenitus

Zendikar:
Ravenous Trap

Scars of Mirridon:
Nihil Spellbomb
Surgical Extraction

Innastrad:
Gravedigger's Cage

RtR:
Numberous have been spoiled in each color and it is just the first set of the block.

Let's not forget the commander decks that gave us Ooze.

Storm decks have been shat on too even with Mystical Tutor banned.
Ethersworn Canonist, Mindbreak Trap, Thalia, and Flusterstorm. I can't think of anything in the Scars block that got printed to nerf storm, not sure.

It is apparent that Wizards hates these types of decks. You don't see some colorless improved Engineered Plague to combat tribal decks being printed. We also missed out on an anti-Show and Tell trap in Zendikar.

Are all these cards being printed so Tom Lapile can win a Legacy tourney or something?
Forsythe and MaRo both have said that combo is something they're okay with in small doses, but not as a defining feature of an environment. This was mostly in relation to Standard, but I suspect it filters over to Legacy as well.

The heavy graveyard hate is probably here for a couple reasons:

1) Innistrad and Golgari-based graveyard decks were tearing up the Standard FFL and these cards were made specifically to combat them;

2) One or more of the guilds in Gatecrash cares about the graveyard in some way (likely Dimir);

3) R&D was worried Snapcaster Mage and flashback spells would provide too much easy card advantage to control decks in Inn-RtR Standard and wanted to give all colors the tools to beat them;

4) The heavy dose of anti-graveyard cards in white meant white was particularly ill-equipped to deal with graveyard shenanigans in the FFL and thus these cards were printed to keep it from being driven out of the format.

Either way, hosers this heavy-handed smack more than a little of things made in Development to curtail problems.

[(nameless one)]

I just realized that there's 10 more cards that haven't been spoiled and mostly rares (most of the cards that "leaked" came from a box).

What are you hoping to see within those 10 rares?

I'm hoping for something:

Suppression Field 2.0 :1::w::w:

Enchantment (R)

As ~ enters the battlefield, choose a permanent type.

Activated abilities of chosen permanent types can't be activated unless they're mana abilities.

More hosers right?

That or whats on my signature.

[Michael Keller]

Competent players piloting graveyard-based strategies can deal with graveyard hate if they're prepared for it - which they should be if they plan on winning consistently.

What makes RIP so good is that it actually exiles all graveyards when it hits the battlefield. Leyline necessitates being in your opening hand to even be plausible, and assuming you can actually cast it, it doesn't affect the current state of all graveyards - but this does. I personally think this is one of the more powerful graveyard-hate cards ever printed, but it is also contingent on the deck you're playing because it affects you too.

People are still going to play the same hate cards salt and peppered into their boards; this will only be another choice to use, nothing more. No one is going to cram ten to twelve slots into their board against graveyard-based decks unless they're deathly afraid of losing to them, and as a Dredge player I'm not really worried all that much.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

The excess grave-hate seems pretty ludicrous, even from a Standard perspective (the one that R&D tends to favor). Over-prevalence of grave hate has made certain deck types like U/G Self-Mill, Burning Vengeance, and Reanimator completely stillborn. And that's quite a shame given how a lot of those archetypes are actually interesting. It's probably one of the bigger mistakes R&D has made as of late; creating a whole bunch of possible archetypes/interactions based on the graveyard, and then hating it out way too hard.

And grave hate really isn't very good against Snapcaster either. Running Snapcaster is like running an extra four of all your spells. Given that, it's none too difficult to just spend a card to counter/remove their grave hate. And symmetric gravehate is no good for a lot of decks, because those decks want to abuse Snapcaster too. It's why Tsabo's Web never worked well against Port...nobody wanted their ports tapped down.

[joemauer]

I forgot about Fairie Macabre and Mental Misstep as hosers printed as of late.


I don't think Rest in Peace will see a whole lot of play. The symmetry thing is of course a problem for most decks to run it.

The mana cost will be a problem for it as well. Other graveyard hate cards cost 0 or 1 mana. Costing two can make it too slow against dredge, at times. When using it against Reanimator you have to be careful it doesn't get thoughtseized or dazed.

Against Canadian Thresh RiP isn't really that stellar either. What if the thresh player has a grip of Delvers and Lightning Bolts with countermagic backup(Even if they don't have that hand then Brainstorms can give em that hand)? You now have a dead card against one of the most efficient decks in the format.


That new black/green elf seems pretty nifty though. I could see him seeing play.

[sdematt]

Azor's Elocutors

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135766&stc=1&d=1347930886

Creature - Human Advisor Rare
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a filibuster counter on Azor's Elocutors. Then if Azor's Elocutors has five or more filibuster counters on it, you win the game.
Whenever a source deals damage to you, remove a filibuster counter from Azor's Elocutors.
Illus. Johannes Voss #210/274 3/5

Card's a pile, but certainly flavourful. I could definitely see some garbage Energy Field/Spiritual Asylum/Rest in Peace combo. 4 Card casual combos...yes! The game ends due to a political filibuster? Sign me up. I definitely want to see this altered to the scene from Mr. Smith goes to Washington...

http://www.doyoulikemoviesaboutgladiators.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/011809mrsmith.jpg

-Matt

[lyracian]

It is apparent that Wizards hates these types of decks. You don't see some colorless improved Engineered Plague to combat tribal decks being printed. We also missed out on an anti-Show and Tell trap in Zendikar.
The point is it is not just Wizards; a large amount of the player base hate Dredge/Storm and reanimator decks too.

[dontbiteitholmes]

The point is it is not just Wizards; a large amount of the player base hate Dredge/Storm and reanimator decks too.

The problem is Wizards doesn't always understand a mistake when they make it. Though they were probably aware that printing lots of GY hate might affect Legacy and Vintage they probably didn't give that part a second thought. It's been officially stated before they don't design sets with these formats in mind, which is probably a good policy since it'd be easy to make a mess of that. Every once in a while they throw us a bone (Mental Misstep was supposed to be an example of this but see back to my comment of why it's a good idea to more or less disregard L&V when designing sets).

They just don't seem to get why Delver was such a run-away deck for a while. They seem to be blaming everything on Mana Leak and Snapcaster when in reality those cards aren't the problem. The real problem that let that deck get out of hand for a while was really more Geist/shroud being way too aggressively costed, Restoration Angel being miscosted, Phyrexian mana (AKA free spells) and the fact that 4x Ponder, Scour, Probe means they were effectively playing a 48 card deck which makes it all incredibly consistent. Eventually the format seems to have caught up now that M13 came in, but damn if Delver isn't still annoying. Still looking at this set it really seems like they were aiming a shotgun at Snapcaster and the "can't be countered" cycle seems to suggest they were serious when they said Mana Leak was the problem with Standard. Mana Leak was never the problem with Standard. Sometimes Mana Leak and Snapcaster + Bounce/Removal just let you run away with the game but in reality it was usually the bad players losing to the Mana Leaks and the good players losing to the multiple filter spells and hard to deal with creatures. I mean seriously a Standard deck with 18 lands, most Legacy decks can't even swing that, even Rug Delver plays 19 lands on occasion...

[Offler]

I believe that gravehate has a lot to do with Commander format as well. If you wonder why the printed Graveborn quite soon after the took EDH for their own, think again

Low costed reanimation spells make a lot of profit even when using single discard or milling efects. All you need is single big/bad creature. First power format, then nerf it with a card originally intended for a completely different format.

This strategy definitely improves sellings. In EDH Blue/black/or more color reanimators are quite powerful and even 1st turn win is possible with current banlists. Well lets print more old power reanimator cards in foil - people get crazy about it. And then, in next core set an all its expansions lets print a lot of flashback spells with reprint of Tormods crypt and lets invent Grafdiggers cage.

Everyone is happy. People get oportunity to build their own reanimator EDH, people who hated those decks get hate cards against them... and all this because such cards became more available...

And now there are cards which remind good old dredge - even when there is a plenty of gravehate...

[Lemnear]

The running gag with Wizard's card design is that they strictly ignore the possibility that the creatures they printed cause a problem and try to throw dirt on everything else (like a Lot of players do too).

They can't accept that Vengevine and it's free mechanic broke Survival. They deny that Delver is a problem but argue that the instants and sorcs that flip him are. They defend Griselbrand and their other creatures with "EtB: You win!" but focus on S&T/Reanimation/cheat-into-play pointing to the balanced mana cost of the creature itself...

I could continue with the discussions about Tarmogoyf, KotR -> Wasteland/Maze, SFM, Snapcaster etc. Because in every case the creature itself wasn't discussed first, but the cards it interacts with.

Back to RTR:

I'm really annoyed that they can't print a Single Expansion without 2-3 cards that shit on Storm- and graveyard-themed decks without giving those decks anything (outside mentioned creatures) since Ad Nauseam.

Deathrite Shaman:

This guy has maindeck potential profiting from all graveyards. Since I consider the days of Tarmogoyf standoffs gone I would go that far and say this guy might should replace Noble Hierarch in Mavericks and Rock-style decks (yes I know that traditional Mavericks don't ran Black for his Second ability)

He blocks unflipped delver, Mini-mongoose, goblin lackey.
He burns life away against Decks that play moat or achieve a standoff.
He is a Must-kill vs. Burn.
He creates Black and red mana unlike Hierarch in a World of fetches
He is castable off 2 different colors
He is Terror-proofed (lol)
He Naturally battles graveyard strategies.
He reduces the Need to run Ooze/ GSZ for Ooze and is cheaper to answer fast reanimation

[Corto]

I'm really annoyed that they can't print a Single Expansion without 2-3 cards that shit on Storm- and graveyard-themed decks without giving those decks anything (outside mentioned creatures) since Ad Nauseam.


There has been Past int Flames, Faithless Lootings. Graveyard themed decks can reanimate Griselbrand, Flayer of the Hatebound or Elesh Norn, at one point Jin Gitaxias...

Ad Nauseam is far from the latest card having been printed which improves combo-decks...

[rufus]

The running gag with Wizard's card design is that they strictly ignore the possibility that the creatures they printed cause a problem and try to throw dirt on everything else (like a Lot of players do too).

They can't accept that Vengevine and it's free mechanic broke Survival. They deny that Delver is a problem but argue that the instants and sorcs that flip him are. They defend Griselbrand and their other creatures....

Vengevine has its own issues, but having "mana cost doesn't matter" cards like Show and Tell, Natural Order, Dream Halls and Omniscience fundamentally limits the sensible design space.

[Darkenslight]

There has been Past int Flames, Faithless Lootings. Graveyard themed decks can reanimate Griselbrand, Flayer of the Hatebound or Elesh Norn, at one point Jin Gitaxias...

Ad Nauseam is far from the latest card having been printed which improves combo-decks...

You forgot the biggest one:

Misthollow Griffin. :p

[TorpidNinja]

Golgari Charm BG (U)
Instant
Choose one - All creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn; or destroy target enchantment; or regenerate each creature you control.

Lot of mini sweepers in this set.

[catmint]

T
Deathrite Shaman:

This guy has maindeck potential profiting from all graveyards. Since I consider the days of Tarmogoyf standoffs gone I would go that far and say this guy might should replace Noble Hierarch in Mavericks and Rock-style decks (yes I know that traditional Mavericks don't ran Black for his Second ability)

He blocks unflipped delver, Mini-mongoose, goblin lackey.
He burns life away against Decks that play moat or achieve a standoff.
He is a Must-kill vs. Burn.
He creates Black and red mana unlike Hierarch in a World of fetches
He is castable off 2 different colors
He is Terror-proofed (lol)
He Naturally battles graveyard strategies.
He reduces the Need to run Ooze/ GSZ for Ooze and is cheaper to answer fast reanimation

For all the advantages you did not list the disadvantages (from a maverick perspective altough I am not an expert in this deck):

- his not an unconditional mana acceleration

- he does not have exhalted - together with pridemage it has a significant effect.

- comparing to ooze: he costs 1 less than ooze, but is limited to 1 card per turn (except for scyb ranger), and his ability has summoning sickness. Also running ooze is not a liability or necessity to hate on graveyards. He is fine win-condition and trumps a lot of stuff on his own. The shaman can make Goyf/Knight smaller but won't likely trump it on board. Plus Ooze can play around lightning bolt.

- black is not a color maverick wants to go in I think. The color does not solve any existing problem I think (it could provides discar for combo and confidant for draw I guess). If a deck like maverick wants to go to a third color it has to have a significant problem to solve.

My guess: It will see fringe play like some number in Nic Fits 75 or Junk.

[Asthereal]

You forgot one disadvantage which whould not be forgotten:
It is in most cases terrible in multiples. And that's where Noble Hierarch shines. Double Hierarch means LOTS of mana and double exalted to pump your attacker to monster size. Double Deathrite Shaman means no extra mana (lands are gone quickly), and useage of the other abilities is limited to how much mana you want to spend on it each turn.

Still, I want at least three. I'm building a nice BG deck with Abrupt Decay and Vengevines, and I need a proper mana dude next to Hierarch (doesn't make B), and I was seriously considering Elves of Deep Shadow (my The Dark EoDS look SOOO cool!! :laugh: ). This Deathrite Shaman is exaclty what I need though. :smile:

[Nihil Credo]

Golgari Charm BG (U)
Instant
Choose one - All creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn; or destroy target enchantment; or regenerate each creature you control.

Lot of mini sweepers in this set.All three abilities look pretty useful, though not at Izzet Charm levels. It's fighting for slots with Abrupt Decay, though, so...

Man, if Cunning Wish were still a force in the format, several of those Charms would have a neat home to inhabit. Pity Glittering Wish is a sorcery.

[KMS]

Graveyard hexproof.. it will come for sure. I love dredge, its a very techy deck. i have only played vintage dredge at bazaar of moxen and local vintage tournaments but that was ages ago. Now, dredge has not evolved though all other decks have even more hate cards.
It should be something like
Madness
Target card/your graveyard has hexproof/shroud until end of turn

[joemauer]

The point is it is not just Wizards; a large amount of the player base hate Dredge/Storm and reanimator decks too.

Yeah, I see so many magic players wearing 'I <3 Show and Tell' T-shirts around........

[yankeedave]

Yeah, I see so many magic players wearing 'I <3 Show and Tell' T-shirts around........

I don't have a T-shirt, I have a gaming bag:

http://i1.cpcache.com/product/651469093/i_heart_show_and_tell_messenger_bag.jpg?color=NA&height=460&width=460

[rxavage]

I picked up a set of Deathrite Shaman for 27$ shipped. I probably over paid in the long run and this is my first preorder ever but I plan on playing BG zombies in standard.



Love the "I <3 Show and Tell" bag

[Lemnear]

There has been Past int Flames, Faithless Lootings. Graveyard themed decks can reanimate Griselbrand, Flayer of the Hatebound or Elesh Norn, at one point Jin Gitaxias...

Ad Nauseam is far from the latest card having been printed which improves combo-decks...

Agree with PiF, I never saw looting outside of dredge and I strictly excluded creatures because the issue is covered in another paragraph

[KobeBryan]

I picked up a set of Deathrite Shaman for 27$ shipped. I probably over paid in the long run and this is my first preorder ever but I plan on playing BG zombies in standard.



Love the "I <3 Show and Tell" bag

Wow...way too much for a large set. This set will be opened A LOT. lots of cards will be floating around.

[Koby]

The casual player that's suppressed deep in my super-ego is excited that Firemind's Foresight can retrieve Invoke the Firemind, Epic Experiment, and something useful like Brainstorm.

Time to start brewing Riku of the Two Reflections

[wcm8]

So to summarize the set for Legacy applications, these are the cards that seem worth considering (keep in mind that at the time I made this post, 6 cards were still unspoiled, and also that I don't think many will actually make any sort of significant dent in the Legacy landscape):

Abrupt Decay
Detention Sphere
Dryad Militant
Epic Experiment
Grisly Salvage
Izzet Charm
Judge's Familiar
Lotleth Troll
Nivmagus Elemental
Rest in Peace
Supreme Verdict
Vraska the Unseen

More narrow/unlikely to see play:
Ash Zealot
Counterflux
Deathrite Shaman
Electrickery
Guttersnipe
Loxodon Smiter
Rakdos Charm
Selesnya Charm
Sphere of Safety

Am I missing anything? From a Legacy-centric perspective and quick glance, the set doesn't seem like it's going to lead to any format upheaval. I think the best cards are: Abrupt Decay, Rest in Peace, and Supreme Verdict.

[edited]

[Nihil Credo]

I don't think Loxodon Smiter will see play, but I'd give it better chances than Deathrite Shaman or Electrickery or any of the Charms save Izzet. Speaking of which, Izzet Charm should be in the first category.

e: you forgot the new Oblivion Ring.

[Lord Seth]

The point is it is not just Wizards; a large amount of the player base hate Dredge/Storm and reanimator decks too.And how many of the playerbase are enthralled with Show and Tell-esque decks, which Wizards of the Coast seems determined to keep supporting while they bash down the more interesting combo decks? Where's the Show and Tell hosers? Something like "permanents can't enter the battlefield from player's hands unless they were cast" would do the job.

[Aggro_zombies]

So to summarize the set for Legacy applications, these are the cards that seem worth considering (keep in mind that at the time I made this post, 6 cards were still unspoiled, and also that I don't think many will actually make any sort of significant dent in the Legacy landscape):

Abrupt Decay
Detention Sphere
Dryad Militant
Epic Experiment
Grisly Salvage
Izzet Charm
Judge's Familiar
Lotleth Troll
Nivmagus Elemental
Rest in Peace
Supreme Verdict
Vraska the Unseen

More narrow/unlikely to see play:
Ash Zealot
Counterflux
Deathrite Shaman
Electrickery
Guttersnipe
Loxodon Smiter
Rakdos Charm
Selesnya Charm
Sphere of Safety

Am I missing anything? From a Legacy-centric perspective and quick glance, the set doesn't seem like it's going to lead to any format upheaval. I think the best cards are: Abrupt Decay, Rest in Peace, and Supreme Verdict.

[edited]
I think you're being way too generous here. When all is said and done, I expect these cards to be the only ones likely to see major play:

Abrupt Decay
Judge's Familiar
Dryad Militant
Supreme Verdict
Rest in Peace

The following cards will see some play initially, but probably shouldn't because they're not good enough:

Epic Experiment
Lotleth Troll
Vraska the Unseen
Grisly Salvage

The following cards will see fringe play in already-established decks:

Izzet Charm
Nivmagus Elemental
Detention Sphere

I could see an argument for Abrupt Decay being in the last category because it's in a bad combination of colors, but since I suspect people will go out of their way to splash it in a variety of decks I don't think it qualifies as "fringe".

[lordofthepit]

I think you're being way too generous here. When all is said and done, I expect these cards to be the only ones likely to see major play:

Abrupt Decay
Judge's Familiar
Dryad Militant
Supreme Verdict
Rest in Peace



That's my list too, plus Electrickery. No love for that card? :cry:

[rufus]

And how many of the playerbase are enthralled with Show and Tell-esque decks, which Wizards of the Coast seems determined to keep supporting while they bash down the more interesting combo decks? Where's the Show and Tell hosers? Something like "permanents can't enter the battlefield from player's hands unless they were cast" would do the job.

It would have to be nonland permanents. They could make thing so much cleaner by encapsulating that concept into a single word...

Until they printed cards like Griselbrand and Omniescence that win on the same turn, Soul Tithe effects would have been pretty effective.

It feels a bit like they had some other guild mechanics in mind than what got originally printed:
Radkos - 'pain cast'
Selesnia - Number of enchantments you control
Azoria - Non-land cards with the same name.

[lavafrogg]

I think Rest in Peace is the first card they have designed to fight the popular legacy metagame, it is like legacies version of null rod. I foresee a UW aggro deck with Serra's Avengers and RIP main board taking out top decks after the new set comes out.

It would have a great game against RUG, Maverick, Reanimator and combo but would have a bad day against Merfolk, Goblins and other aggro decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

That's my list too, plus Electrickery. No love for that card? :cry:
Isn't Shrivel just better? That way Mom can't tap to give herself Pro:Red and survive.

EDIT: Oh, Electrickery is an instant. I guess it's okay then.

[Zinch]

Isn't Shrivel just better? That way Mom can't tap to give herself Pro:Red and survive.

EDIT: Oh, Electrickery is an instant. I guess it's okay then.

And also, only affects enemy creatures.


I think you're being way too generous here. When all is said and done, I expect these cards to be the only ones likely to see major play:

Abrupt Decay
Judge's Familiar
Dryad Militant
Supreme Verdict
Rest in Peace

The following cards will see some play initially, but probably shouldn't because they're not good enough:

Epic Experiment
Lotleth Troll
Vraska the Unseen
Grisly Salvage

The following cards will see fringe play in already-established decks:

Izzet Charm
Nivmagus Elemental
Detention Sphere

I could see an argument for Abrupt Decay being in the last category because it's in a bad combination of colors, but since I suspect people will go out of their way to splash it in a variety of decks I don't think it qualifies as "fringe".

I think Deathrite Shaman will be in the first group also. It's a very versatile and useful creature

[Aggro_zombies]

I think Deathrite Shaman will be in the first group also. It's a very versatile and useful creature
Eh, not really. You can sometimes get mana out of it if you Wastelanded your opponent or they cracked a fetch, but not always being a mana dork when you want it to be one (like Birds or Hierarch) is a liability. The other two abilities don't stack up favorably against Scavenging Ooze since they can only be used once per turn and the Shaman's 1/2 body means he basically has Defender.

EDIT: I would say Shrivel's ability to prevent Mom shenanigans is more important than being one-sided for a lot of decks. Many of the red decks in this format either aren't interested in that effect (like Burn), already run better options (like Goblins), or don't care about it being one-sided (RUG, SnT decks). Pretty much no red deck right now runs Seismic Shudder, although I guess the flexibility to be that or a Lava Dart might mean something.

[lavafrogg]

Eh, not really. You can sometimes get mana out of it if you Wastelanded your opponent or they cracked a fetch, but not always being a mana dork when you want it to be one (like Birds or Hierarch) is a liability. The other two abilities don't stack up favorably against Scavenging Ooze since they can only be used once per turn and the Shaman's 1/2 body means he basically has Defender.

Or you cracked a fetch, or they discarded a land to hymn or liliana or knight, I heard some of those cards are playable.

A 1/2 body means it can hold back a surprisingly large number of creatures, unflipped delvers, un-threshed geese, lackeys, mom's, it still trades with snap casters and dark confidants like a champ. It also attacks for one/drains for two, when it has to go on the offensive.

If you do the math, 10 instants/sorceries and you have lethal in the yard. A inquisition taking a brainstorm is 4 life loss over 2 turns(or 1 turn if you have 2 shamans). Against creature decks the same thing can be said for life gain, 2 life can make or break a race.

[Aggro_zombies]

Or you cracked a fetch, or they discarded a land to hymn or liliana or knight, I heard some of those cards are playable.

A 1/2 body means it can hold back a surprisingly large number of creatures, unflipped delvers, un-threshed geese, lackeys, mom's, it still trades with snap casters and dark confidants like a champ. It also attacks for one/drains for two, when it has to go on the offensive.

If you do the math, 10 instants/sorceries and you have lethal in the yard. A inquisition taking a brainstorm is 4 life loss over 2 turns(or 1 turn if you have 2 shamans). Against creature decks the same thing can be said for life gain, 2 life can make or break a race.
Scavenging Ooze kills them faster, can be used multiple times per turn, blocks and kills all of the things you mentioned, and doesn't remove lands from your 'yard (important if you're running Knights or LftL). Ooze can also be used right away if you have open green mana after casting it.

10 instants or sorceries = 10 turn clock, which is kind of a joke; he'll probably do about as much damage in an average game as Grim Lavamancer, and Grim Lavamancer has the notable upside of also killing creatures.

I'm just not seeing it. The tap parts of the activation really kill this guy's chances.

[Bahamuth]

Why would anyone ever play Judge's Familliar? How would you ever make that card relevant? Birds.deck?

[Aggro_zombies]

Why would anyone ever play Judge's Familliar? How would you ever make that card relevant? Birds.deck?
It's a white one-drop that carries equipment well and can be cashed in for a Force Spike if you really need one. It's yet another card in the arsenal of "white aggro creatures that hate on combo".

[Bahamuth]

It's a white one-drop that carries equipment well and can be cashed in for a Force Spike if you really need one. It's yet another card in the arsenal of "white aggro creatures that hate on combo".

There's no way a 1/1 flier is relevant enough for anyone to play. Any white deck would be making aggro and control matchups worse by adding this card.

[Infinitium]

I don't really see Rest in Peace seeing play outside of Enchantress or decks going for Helm of Obedience/Energy Field shenanigans, by which I mean it won't see play at all once the dust settles. It's too slow for Reanimator/Dredge, and Relic of Progenitus is almost as good versus decks trying to get an incremental advantage out of the GY whilst being colorless and cycling. Likewise, Dryad Militant is far too narrow in its application whilst having too small of a body to be of use.

On the flip side, Deathrite Shaman looks incredible in Elves (I've outlined the reasons for this in the Elves thread, but in short a 1cc on color on tribe creature that brings reach versus control, stalls versus aggro, disrupts the opponents graveyard, makes mana a non-zero amount of the time and has synergy with the untappers is far too good to pass up. Elves have wanted utility beside dealing with Artis/Enchantments for a long time, and boy does this provide it. Sleeper hit of the set imo.

Abrupt Decay is obviously seeing play, only question that remains is which decks will splash for it.

Supreme Verdict and Detention Sphere are both strictly better upgrades of the cards they're modeled on with the added benefit of being blue, obviously. Being uncounterable is a big deal with Merfolk and Griesel in the format, and being able to deal with Emmy is points in its favor as well. The latter is somewhat harder to place as Miracles don't especially need a Vindicate variant, but since Oblivion Ring sees fringe play I expect this to as well.

Lotleth Troll is a good creature in a middling archetype (what with Legacy being rather hostile to the GY in general, and Dredge setting the bar for creature based decks creating card advantage through the graveyard rather high).

Judge's Familiar looks good enough for Maverick, not sure it'll permantly supplant any other creature since the ones available are all at a similar power level but being an option in a combo-heavy metagame plays in its favor.

Nivmagus has a rather unique (and good) ability, but being a vanilla 1/2 will probably ensure it won't see play regardless. Adding another situational card in order to pitch dead Stifle/Dazes probably isn't the way to go about it.

Which about covers it for Legacy far as I can see; there's a lot of good cards in the set (charms, smiter, ashrunner, dreadbore etc) but none that look strong enough to warrant their own archetype nor fit into any existing.

[Koby]

There's no way a 1/1 flier is relevant enough for anyone to play. Any white deck would be making aggro and control matchups worse by adding this card.

It's a 1-drop anti-Storm card that isn't 2 mana. This is very important that it costs 1 mana rather than 2.
It also completely hates on Dredge by having a built-in sacrifice. This is also highly relevant.
It also has flying. This is an underrated in Legacy.
Finally, it has Amazing.

In short, 10 / 10 for playability

[lavafrogg]

Scavenging Ooze kills them faster, can be used multiple times per turn, blocks and kills all of the things you mentioned, and doesn't remove lands from your 'yard (important if you're running Knights or LftL). Ooze can also be used right away if you have open green mana after casting it.

10 instants or sorceries = 10 turn clock, which is kind of a joke; he'll probably do about as much damage in an average game as Grim Lavamancer, and Grim Lavamancer has the notable upside of also killing creatures.

I'm just not seeing it. The tap parts of the activation really kill this guy's chances.

You are comparing a 1cc mana dork to a 2cc beater or a really badly colored source of recurring damage. Compare him to birds, lanowar elf or heirarch and I think he lines up better. I highly doubt you will have to eat your own yard if you don't want to and it is not like you will lose knight fights with a shaman in play.

!!! 500th post!!!

[CorpT]

You are comparing a 1cc mana dork to a 2cc beater or a really badly colored source of recurring damage. Compare him to birds, lanowar elf or heirarch and I think he lines up better. I highly doubt you will have to eat your own yard if you don't want to and it is not like you will lose knight fights with a shaman in play.

!!! 500th post!!!

He has summoning sickness and only one of his abilities can be activated once a turn. That's a pretty significant downside. He's not better than Noble because he is less consistent and less useful in multiples. He's not better than Ooze because he has summoning sickness and can only activate once a turn.

So... where am I going to use him?

[joven]

Scavenging Ooze kills them faster, can be used multiple times per turn, blocks and kills all of the things you mentioned, and doesn't remove lands from your 'yard (important if you're running Knights or LftL). Ooze can also be used right away if you have open green mana after casting it.


Scavenging Ooze is not black. What I mean is: you can't play Scavenging Ooze in a Mono-Black. Deathrite Shaman is a mana dork for mono-black decks or other decks with Black but without Green. Not being able to use its third ability is not a big deal, I think. Those colors had no access to one drop mana dorks before!

[Aggro_zombies]

Scavenging Ooze is not black. What I mean is: you can't play Scavenging Ooze in a Mono-Black. Deathrite Shaman is a mana dork for mono-black decks or other decks with Black but without Green. Not being able to use its third ability is not a big deal, I think. Those colors had no access to one drop mana dorks before!
I feel like this is more of an argument not to play mono-black or non-green black decks than it is to run the Shaman.

[Nihil Credo]

I could kinda see playing Deathrite Shaman as Hierarch #5 if you felt your curve could use the boost, on the assumption that a single one will have all three of its abilities online at which point it can have decent value over a Birds or whatever else you'd have played. That's about it, though.

[alderon666]

He has summoning sickness and only one of his abilities can be activated once a turn. That's a pretty significant downside. He's not better than Noble because he is less consistent and less useful in multiples. He's not better than Ooze because he has summoning sickness and can only activate once a turn.

So... where am I going to use him?

In a deck that wants early acceleration, play a lot of fetches and Wasteland and could use the late game +2/-2 abilities.

Take some BUG variant, that wants to jump a mana ahead in the early game, do some beating and them ping to finish the Opp. Note that he even makes leaving mana open for Stifle/Mana Leak good, because you can use his abilities on EOT if the opp doesn't do anything.

Gotta be funny playing against Dredge on the play:
Turn 1 land, Deathrite Shaman
Turn 1 land, Putrid Imp
Turn 2 land, go

Now if dredge has only one dredger, he can't go off. If he tries to do something you can counter it or even kill the Imp...

[Fizzeler]

Actually I can see Shaman in a BUG Control shell as their Noble Hierarch early game and late game it eats dead creatures and removal spells, I smell a brew coming

[Koby]

Scavenging Ooze is not black. What I mean is: you can't play Scavenging Ooze in a Mono-Black. Deathrite Shaman is a mana dork for mono-black decks or other decks with Black but without Green. Not being able to use its third ability is not a big deal, I think. Those colors had no access to one drop mana dorks before!

Historically, mono-black or non-green black decks have had no use for a mana dork, let alone conditional mana acceleration like Deathrite Shaman. They typically fall under two categories:

1. Board control (sweepers galore)
2. Tempo aggro (suicide, Eva green)

I don't think this Shaman will impact Legacy much more than Birds of Paradise already has, nor more than Scavenging Ooze for g/y hate purposes. It's color combination being partial Green is going to make this dead on arrival for Legacy.

I do see this guy being an interesting role player in Modern which doesn't have access to Scavenging Ooze to filter down Goyfs.

[Annatar]

If I were to make snap judgements on which of the spoiled cards are legacy deck material I would select the following:

Abrupt Decay
Detention Sphere
Supreme Verdict

There are other cards that will see significant sideboard play (most notably R.I.P.), some peculiar choices that might not be universally agreed upon (Dreadbore, Ash Zealot, Ultimate Price, Electrickery, Deathrite Shaman), but these are the three best cards RtR has to offer as far as legacy is concerned.

[catmint]

Actually I can see Shaman in a BUG Control shell as their Noble Hierarch early game and late game it eats dead creatures and removal spells, I smell a brew coming

Should be a BUG deck without deed then... but deed is a bad card anyway and not needed for BUG control decks. :tongue:

[Shawon]

I think Slaughter Games (uncounterable Cranial) has a lot of fringe applicability in decks that use a Burning Wish toolbox and desire a Cranial effect.

EDIT: Call me crazy, but I think we're just one BR-land version of Grove of the Burnwillows from seeing a formidable Smallpox or black control deck. Having access to P. Fires without splashing green and Slaughter Games would fix some of the shortcomings MBC decks typically encounter post-board.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

My guesses on what sees Legacy play:

Highly Likely To See Play In Established Archetypes

Judge's Familiar
Dryad Militant
Abrupt Decay
Supreme Verdict
Izzet Charm

Possible Play in Established Archetypes

Deathrite Shaman
Electrickery
Detention Sphere
Grisly Salvage
Treasured Find

Possible Play in Niche Archetypes/Sideboard

Rest in Peace
Nivmagus Elemental
Blistercoil Weird
Mana Bloom
Sphere of Safety
Ash Zealot


I'm really disappointed in this set. It brings some cool stuff for Legacy, but is a total dud otherwise. I don't like the design of the majority of the cards...there are too many "French Vanilla" cards, way too many boring reprints (Mind Rot), and not nearly enough interesting "build around" cards that can actually work (i.e. Glare of Subdual, Warp World). This is mostly a result of Forsythe's "new world order", in which complexity of any sort is bad. And I absolutely hate how they decided to shift a bunch of utility removal spells to Rare. One of the coolest things about the first Ravnica block was how there were excellent uncommons, and all the great removal spells (Putrefy, Lightning Helix, Wrecking Ball) were either uncommon or common. Too bad they jacked everything up to rare.

I really hope Limited isn't the shitshow it looks like it will be. As I look at things right now, there isn't a lot of common removal and what exists is really, really clunky. That can be okay if the format is designed well for it (Rise of the Eldrazi), but I don't think Return to Ravnica is. For instance, look at these two common creature curves, the UW one and the B/R one.



1
111111111
111111
1111
11
1


11
11111
111111
111
11111
1
11

Also consider that U/W has a lot of aggressive/evasive dudes with the Detain ability, B/R is all over the place, and there is a strong Defender subtheme. My guess is that Azorious is going to wreck house in Sealed. They have low-CMC evasive beaters that give extreme tempo advantage and the only real good low-CMC removal, at common, in Arrest and Paralyzing Grasp. I'm going to be about as happy getting tempo'd out by Skyknights while staring at my 6CMC common removal, wishing it was Last Gasp, as I am getting blown out by dumb bombs and I'm certain no one will like getting murdered by early Pack Rats. This could be another Avacyn Restored style shitshow.

And finally...


Restoration Angel being miscosted

I'm certain they still don't get this. First Thragtusk and now...

Armada Wurm
2GGWW
Creature - Wurm
Trample
When Armada Wurm enters the battlefield put a 5/5 Wurm creature token with trample onto the battlefield.
5/5

More Magic: The Entering (the battlefield).

[Annatar]

Honestly, it's unrealistic to expect that a given new set will contain more then 5 cards that will make a significant impact.

Innistrad:
Delver of Secrets
Snapcaster Mage
Liliana of the Veil
Past in Flames

Dark Ascension:
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Thought Scour (a functional Mental Note but it's worth mentioning)
Faithless Looting
Grafdigger's Cage

Avacyn Restored:
Entreat the Angels
Terminus
Griselbrand
Cavern of Souls

Magic 2013:
Master of the Pearl Trident
Omniscience
Krenko, Mobb Boss

It's like that proverb: The most lethal venom is packed into the smallest of bottles. I think Return to Ravnica will have four, five at most, significant contributions to the legacy card pool and that's about as much as we could have expected.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think Slaughter Games (uncounterable Cranial) has a lot of fringe applicability in decks that use a Burning Wish toolbox and desire a Cranial effect.

EDIT: Call me crazy, but I think we're just one BR-land version of Grove of the Burnwillows from seeing a formidable Smallpox or black control deck. Having access to P. Fires without splashing green and Slaughter Games would fix some of the shortcomings MBC decks typically encounter post-board.

You can just run Grove as a red land and not use it for mana fixing. This isn't EDH.

[TsumiBand]

Why would anyone ever play Judge's Familliar? How would you ever make that card relevant? Birds.deck?

Spiketail Hatchling used to see play in Vintage, in Fish and Fish/r. This is basically that guy, minus 1 colorless mana. In a deck full of counters, a critter that flies, beats for nonzero damage, wears equipment and pitches to Force if need be shouldn't be so easily discounted.

[Shawon]

You can just run Grove as a red land and not use it for mana fixing. This isn't EDH.

Then Grove is just useless otherwise if it can't produce :b: and you don't have Fires, which is a problem if one of your strategies is attrition a la Smallpox. I'm speaking of decks that rely on said strategy.

[Humphrey]

Honestly, it's unrealistic to expect that a given new set will contain more then 5 cards that will make a significant impact.

Innistrad:
Delver of Secrets
Snapcaster Mage
Liliana of the Veil
Past in Flames

Dark Ascension:
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Thought Scour (a functional Mental Note but it's worth mentioning)
Faithless Looting
Grafdigger's Cage

Avacyn Restored:
Entreat the Angels
Terminus
Griselbrand
Cavern of Souls

Magic 2013:
Master of the Pearl Trident
Omniscience
Krenko, Mobb Boss

It's like that proverb: The most lethal venom is packed into the smallest of bottles. I think Return to Ravnica will have four, five at most, significant contributions to the legacy card pool and that's about as much as we could have expected.

You forgot Lingering Souls and Garruck also saw play in Maverick

[bowvamp]

Does RIP + Energy Field work? If so, I'm building it.
Oh holy crap. It works with Helm of Obedience too.
:) This is my favorite card in all of magic now.

[Lord Seth]

Thought Scour (a functional Mental Note but it's worth mentioning)Functionally it's a better Mental Note, because there are cases you'd want to do it to your opponent, such as if you're playing Jace's Phantasm or want to counteract a tutor.

[Vacrix]

Historically, mono-black or non-green black decks have had no use for a mana dork, let alone conditional mana acceleration like Deathrite Shaman. They typically fall under two categories:

1. Board control (sweepers galore)
2. Tempo aggro (suicide, Eva green)

I don't think this Shaman will impact Legacy much more than Birds of Paradise already has, nor more than Scavenging Ooze for g/y hate purposes. It's color combination being partial Green is going to make this dead on arrival for Legacy.

I do see this guy being an interesting role player in Modern which doesn't have access to Scavenging Ooze to filter down Goyfs.I disagree. New archetypes spring to life all the time and I think this guy is powerful enough to create one. As alderon666 was saying, it completely hoses strategies like Reanimator and Dredge (at least on the play). If you want to do that with Scavenging Ooze, you have to wait til turn 3 to have mana open to activate it... by the time they've already gone off. Having a 1 drop thats an active solution to these decks by turn 2 is pretty strong considering its maindeck material rather than sideboard material.

Though GB has traditional had little use for manadorks, this guy provides the mana flexibility of BOP with grave hating potential that hoses a lot of Legacy strategies. This cards gravehating potential has an application against most decks in Legacy, some better than others. Also, with access to GSZ, manadorks can always be useful because they power out a creature with a higher X sooner.

This doesn't even factor in the reach potential. Having reach on a manadork is unbelievable. Its worth noting that Shaman's reach ability says 'Each opponent loses 2 life'. That means it bypasses a few things like Solitary Confinement which gives you shroud and only prevents damage. The reach ability is a perfect way to spend your mana when you don't have anything better to do.. and in a slow match against control (for example) when you might have multiple instances to activate, you can also remove all of the best Snapcaster targets in the process.. or Linger Souls before they get a chance to flashback it.

Also, the fact that this guy removes stuff in the yard as a manadork means the build that plays him will want to compliment him with creatures that don't use the graveyard (except for Scavenging Ooze perhaps). So no Snapcaster Mage, Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Tombstalker, etc. These are some of the strongest creatures in the format listed above. Shaman is a manadork that makes them less effective or ineffective.

The fact that its a 1/2 all the time means its superior to Noble Hierarch on defense. Hierarch vs. Shaman against turn 1 Lackey is extremely relevant given Goblins current place in the metagame.

From the DTB thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection&p=673531#post673531

1. UGr Thresh
2. Maverick
3. Miracle Control
4. Blade Control
5. Sneak Attack
6. Goblins
7. Dredge
8. ANT
9. Burn
10. Merfolk

Shaman has a direct application outside of being a manadork against 7 of these decks. Namely the dominance of Thresh and Maverick makes me think Shaman is going to be a powerful manadork that directly conflicts with those strategies. Noble Hierarch, as a comparable manadork, doesn't do any of these things. Removing a Lingersouls, removing a Snapcaster target, stopping Lackey, preventing IGG/PIF loops, shrinking Goose/Goyf, removing a single Dredger, shrinking KoTR, stopping Ooze from getting beefy whilst making the opponent lose life or gaining life yourself makes him a versatile utility one drop while also facilitating a Daze proof Hymn on turn 2, a 3 drop or a X = 2 GSZ. Stuff like Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize seems good right now as well, which are probably cards you'd want to run in said emerging GB Shaman archetype.

EDIT:
And GBx just got one of the best removal spells Legacy has ever seen, Abrupt Decay.. which compliments Maelstrom Pulse. Dryad Militant seems like a good one drop to further hate graveyard based strategies like Dredge, Loam, and Snapcaster.

[Lemnear]

Does RIP + Energy Field work? If so, I'm building it.
Oh holy crap. It works with Helm of Obedience too.
:) This is my favorite card in all of magic now.

It does.

I don't like the set. Aside from Nivmagus there's no card to justify any brewing as far as i've seen. We have an upgraded oblivion ring and Wrath which both may suffer more from the Speed of the Format than from the fixed drawbacks in their newer version.

Together with the pretty obvious Decay we have 3 removal spells as the chase-rares in this Set (with Verdict also being buy-a-Box-promo) which feels like a Bad joke.

My favourites (interation) though:

Grizzly Salvage + tombstalker
Treasured find + Gushbond (Vintage)
Rest in Peace as imo the best overall graveyard-hate up to date
Deathrite Shaman the better Bird of Paradise in my Kitchen-table-oldschool-rock

Keep the rest



Spiketail Hatchling used to see play in Vintage, in Fish and Fish/r. This is basically that guy, minus 1 colorless mana. In a deck full of counters, a critter that flies, beats for nonzero damage, wears equipment and pitches to Force if need be shouldn't be so easily discounted.

I wouldn't argue based on something that WAS the case a decade ago. Spiketail and it's friends aren't playable anymore in Vintage. Familiar's application in Legacy is questionable being limited to instants/sorcs AND predictable.

[Valtrix]

Treasured find + Gushbond (Vintage)

They needed more Regrowth effects?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Historically, mono-black or non-green black decks have had no use for a mana dork, let alone conditional mana acceleration like Deathrite Shaman.

We don't know whether they had any such use because they have had such an opportunity.

I doubt the card is good for other reasons, but this is a bad argument.

[lavafrogg]

We don't know whether they had any such use because they have had such an opportunity.

I doubt the card is good for other reasons, but this is a bad argument.

What are your reasons if you don't mind me asking?

[Octopusman]

Spiketail Hatchling used to see play in Vintage, in Fish and Fish/r. This is basically that guy, minus 1 colorless mana. In a deck full of counters, a critter that flies, beats for nonzero damage, wears equipment and pitches to Force if need be shouldn't be so easily discounted.

What's ironic is that in Vintage it wasn't a big deal that hatchling could hit creatures. Unfortunately, judge's familiar can't and in Legacy it is a huge deal.

Love me some Fish'ish creatures, though.

[Lemnear]

They needed more Regrowth effects?

Unless the DCI unresticts merchant scroll, ponder and brainstorm i guess chaining gushes/Ancestral recalls via regrowth effects is the only Way to return as a cOmbo-engine

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What are your reasons if you don't mind me asking?

The mana effect is unreliable enough to be worrisome, considering that that would be the main reason to run it. And the other two effects are middling, or when they're not they're too slow (not having haste.)

[Oiolosse]

You're right, the Shaman's graveyard hatability won't do much against combo decks because it will take too long to come online. The lack of reliability of it's ramping is also very relevant. But, I think it's great against control and midrange decks utilizing (or just involving) the GY. This says nothing that it's creating a life differential at the same time. I think that's awesome. I can see it alongside Bob and a suite of board control.

Thank you Vacrix for saying everything I was too lazy to type.

[evanmartyr]

Abrupt Decay and Dryad Militant are the only truly reasonable cards that I know will be slotted into existing decks.

I could see Izzet Charm being used, it seems good.

Clearly RIP is an amazing sb card, but at 2 mana it's a cheap lock piece that randomly screws with a lot of decks, and is half the win condition. Kind of like Lodestone Golem + Humility against RUG. If this doesn't see some maindeck play I'll be surprised.

I like Deathrite Shaman, I'm just not sure it's consistent enough to be amazing. At least it can always attack for 1, and is splashable into pretty much any deck that would care to run it.

Cyclonic Rift is clearly reasonable. Dunno if it's better than Repeal, but it may be in some decks that stand a chance at Overloading it.

I disagree with you somewhat IBA; I think the main reason to run Deathrite Shaman would be the graveyard shennanigans, not the mana acceleration.

[Vacrix]

You're right, the Shaman's graveyard hatability won't do much against combo decks because it will take too long to come online. The lack of reliability of it's ramping is also very relevant. But, I think it's great against control and midrange decks utilizing (or just involving) the GY. This says nothing that it's creating a life differential at the same time. I think that's awesome. I can see it alongside Bob and a suite of board control.

Thank you Vacrix for saying everything I was too lazy to type.
Yeah I think that its ability to mana ramp will be negated against decks like Merfolk, Elves, Goblins, DNT, ie. decks that don't play fetches. It means you'll need a hand with a fetchland to use it as a mana ramper. Even so, I'd think that GB would be good against these decks anyway due to Deed and Pulse.

I wouldn't be so sure that its graveyard hating abilities won't be relevant against combo. If you can get off a good Thoughtseize early or a Hymn and stop a combo player from going off you can follow that up with some damage. Then, removing Rites of Flame or stopping Cabal Ritual from reaching Threshold could be relevant while cutting off IGG or PIF can force them into an early Ad Nauseam at a lower life total. Granted this isn't why you want to play the card but I'm sure there will be games where Shaman will give a combo player problems.

Shaman's strength is that there are powerful graveyard focused strategies in Legacy (Loam, Reanimator, Dredge) that this card solve as a maindeck 1 drop.. but also there are graveyard focused cards such as KoTR, Ooze, Goyf, Goose, Snapcaster, Lingering Souls that people don't or can't always side in graveyard hate to deal with. Shaman answers these creatures without diluting deck space while providing utility as a 1/2 answer to early threats like Lackey with the color versatility of Birds of Paradise, and the reach (though not spot removal) of Grim Lavamancer. IMO its the best card out of RotR on par with the viability of Abrupt Decay.

[Lemnear]

I'm pretty sure the obligatory 2 fetches in graveyards during the First 3 turns (experience) are enough to Run Shaman as accelerator during the relevant own turns 2/3/4. After turn 4 i expect this used for it's both reach-abilities only.

Noble hierarch's only long-term use is exalted for other creatures and a horrible topdeck. I feel that here Shaman have advantages too

[Phoenix Ignition]

What are your reasons if you don't mind me asking?

I'm assuming just logic. No mana dork existed in black before, so saying "no black deck wants one" precludes the possibility that it could be effective based on the fact that it currently is not. Perhaps mana dork will make a new deck viable, and perhaps even quite good.

Like saying "No dog could ever act the role of Lord Macbeth" and then finding a dog who can talk and saying "We don't need acting dogs, they aren't any good!" when, in fact, no dog was able to act before the discovery of the new one.

[Hanni]

They key thing about Shaman is its versatility. It doesn't do any of the roles "great," and there are plenty of other cards that do those roles much better. The difference here, is that this can provide multiple different roles, that are all fairly useful.

Mana ramp is best during the first few turns of the game, and I suspect any deck that runs this to also run a healthy amount of fetches to support it. The fact that it can be cast off either black mana or green mana also gives it more ease to cast in a B/g/x deck, vs the other manadorks. If you want to drop first turn Swamp to protect vs Wasteland and setup a turn 2 Hymn, you can still do that.

Secondly, I think the lifegain ability is seriously being overlooked. B/g decks tend to have fairly bad life management, especially in decks that run stuff like Thoughtseize. Burn decks are generally a bad matchup for B/g decks, where the lifegain would be relevant (and most Burn decks run creatures that die after use). It will probably eat a burn spell instead, but that's still helpful.

Then you tack on the additional graveyard hate, which has all sorts of benefits in Legacy. Don't look at this as your primary graveyard hate, but rather as a supplimental tool. It's a nice bonus.

The ability to damage the opponent without the red zone (similar to Grim Lavamancer, minus the targeting of creatures obviously) rounds out the versatility.

Also, this card can easily be ran in a deck with Ooze, no different than running multiple Ooze in the same deck. They compete for the graveyard resource, but Shaman only eats 1 card a turn, and Ooze only grows from exiling creatures.

I see this card being Legacy playable. The question is, what currently viable deck(s) want this guy?

[Offler]

The casual player that's suppressed deep in my super-ego is excited that Firemind's Foresight can retrieve Invoke the Firemind, Epic Experiment, and something useful like Brainstorm.

Time to start brewing Riku of the Two Reflections

thumbs up. Every tutoring card which searches for more than one card is potential win condition... Tooth and nail and similar...

[Malchar]

The casual player that's suppressed deep in my super-ego is excited that Firemind's Foresight can retrieve Invoke the Firemind, Epic Experiment, and something useful like Brainstorm.

Time to start brewing Riku of the Two Reflections

Firemind's Foresight can only search for instants, so you can't get invoke the firemind or epic experiment. Apparently the Firemind didn't have that much foresight after all.

[Annatar]

You forgot Lingering Souls and Garruck also saw play in Maverick

Honestly, I've never seen Garruk Relentless in any Maverik list, or even legacy lists for that matter, what so ever. Lingering Souls, however, is being played in various stoneblade variants, so you could probably chuck it in Thought Scour's slot.

[lordofthepit]

They key thing about Shaman is its versatility. It doesn't do any of the roles "great," and there are plenty of other cards that do those roles much better. The difference here, is that this can provide multiple different roles, that are all fairly useful.

Mana ramp is best during the first few turns of the game, and I suspect any deck that runs this to also run a healthy amount of fetches to support it. The fact that it can be cast off either black mana or green mana also gives it more ease to cast in a B/g/x deck, vs the other manadorks. If you want to drop first turn Swamp to protect vs Wasteland and setup a turn 2 Hymn, you can still do that.

Secondly, I think the lifegain ability is seriously being overlooked. B/g decks tend to have fairly bad life management, especially in decks that run stuff like Thoughtseize. Burn decks are generally a bad matchup for B/g decks, where the lifegain would be relevant (and most Burn decks run creatures that die after use). It will probably eat a burn spell instead, but that's still helpful.

Then you tack on the additional graveyard hate, which has all sorts of benefits in Legacy. Don't look at this as your primary graveyard hate, but rather as a supplimental tool. It's a nice bonus.

The ability to damage the opponent without the red zone (similar to Grim Lavamancer, minus the targeting of creatures obviously) rounds out the versatility.

Also, this card can easily be ran in a deck with Ooze, no different than running multiple Ooze in the same deck. They compete for the graveyard resource, but Shaman only eats 1 card a turn, and Ooze only grows from exiling creatures.

I see this card being Legacy playable. The question is, what currently viable deck(s) want this guy?

Here's what I don't like about the card. It looks versatile on paper since it has three abilities which are pretty cool and serves as graveyard hate to boot.

But in reality, fewer than three abilities will be available to you in the early game, since it's restricted by the card types in the graveyard, and you're constantly munching on it to boot. The card is pretty miserable in the late game, unless your opponent is already at a really low life total, has no way to deal with a creature, but attacking is not an option for some reason. And as graveyard hate, this is as bad as it gets, since you have to wait a turn, invest mana, and are limited to removing one card per turn (and it has to be a creature, land, instant, or sorcery at that), so you're hopefully using this card for the other utility.

Finally, the fact that your opponent can fizzle any of the three abilities (even the "mana ability", since it targets a card) makes it even worse. If you try to hit a card in your opponent's graveyard to disable Snapcaster and to hit for two damage, they can simply flash in Snapcaster in response and use that card. Or tap Relic of Progenitus. Or activate Scavenging Ooze's ability to fizzle whatever you would have done with the Shaman.

This is a borderline card IMO. I don't think you can jam it into most green and black decks, or even something like Rock where it might initially seem suited. I think the best bet is with Combo Elves (which Infinitum suggested), since it's easily found with a GSZ and provides some useful reach with its "black" ability for a deck that sometimes gets stalled out by a Moat or Peacekeeper (or even Worship or Energy Field), in conjunction with Birchlore Rangers to produce black mana as well as Wirewood Symbiote and/or Quirion Ranger to shock the opponent multiple times a turn.

[Vacrix]

Here's what I don't like about the card. It looks versatile on paper since it has three abilities which are pretty cool and serves as graveyard hate to boot.

But in reality, fewer than three abilities will be available to you in the early game, since it's restricted by the card types in the graveyard, and you're constantly munching on it to boot. The card is pretty miserable in the late game, unless your opponent is already at a really low life total, has no way to deal with a creature, but attacking is not an option for some reason. And as graveyard hate, this is as bad as it gets, since you have to wait a turn, invest mana, and are limited to removing one card per turn (and it has to be a creature, land, instant, or sorcery at that), so you're hopefully using this card for the other utility.

Finally, the fact that your opponent can fizzle any of the three abilities (even the "mana ability", since it targets a card) makes it even worse. If you try to hit a card in your opponent's graveyard to disable Snapcaster and to hit for two damage, they can simply flash in Snapcaster in response and use that card. Or tap Relic of Progenitus. Or activate Scavenging Ooze's ability to fizzle whatever you would have done with the Shaman.

This is a borderline card IMO. I don't think you can jam it into most green and black decks, or even something like Rock where it might initially seem suited. I think the best bet is with Combo Elves (which Infinitum suggested), since it's easily found with a GSZ and provides some useful reach with its "black" ability for a deck that sometimes gets stalled out by a Moat or Peacekeeper (or even Worship or Energy Field), in conjunction with Birchlore Rangers to produce black mana as well as Wirewood Symbiote and/or Quirion Ranger to shock the opponent multiple times a turn.Note that the abilities don't fizzle. They aren't costs because they are behind the colon. So they are just effects. That means you can still do direct damage or gain life if your opponent has an Ooze on the board or something and tries to remove what you remove in response. Granted, against an Ooze you ought to be spending any extra mana removing those creature anyway. Your opponent might have the opportunity to Snapcast something in response to your target but it forces them to do it when its not necessarily ideal, and if they are Snapcasting a Sorcery you can just use Shaman at the end of turn and try to tap them out to avoid Spell Pierces by forcing a Snapcaster when you want to resolve something.

Shaman > Hierarch in the late game most of the time. If we are talking about mana dorks, Shaman is more likely to be relevant in the late game than any of your other manadork options since it has Lavamancer-esque reach. As grave hate, I don't think its bad at all. It comes down early and when it doesn't, its likely you are playing discard anyway to slow them down. Sure it doesn't have haste and you have to spend mana but has Hanni was saying, it compliments Scavenging Ooze nicely as another grave hate option that you can run in the main deck to deal with these cards that aren't really grave centric strategies but still utilize the graveyard to be powerful.

[Lemnear]

Just while the previous Poster mentioned it: Is the remove clause relevant for triggering the Second-sentence-effect? Doesn't seem a requirement or cost by the spelling. I'm confused ... :/

[lordofthepit]

Note that the abilities don't fizzle. They aren't costs because they are behind the colon.

If all targets of an ability are removed, the entire ability fizzles. If it were a cost, then your opponent wouldn't even have a chance to respond to the removal, which would make this card a little better (and make other cards that work similarly absolutely insane).

[Malchar]

The abilities will fizzle if the targeted card is removed in response to the activation because the ability will have lost all of its targets. Also note that the ability which adds mana is not a "mana ability", so you can't activate it during the resolution or announcement of a spell or other ability. Of course, this doesn't really matter because you can always use it before you need it. You probably won't get called out, but you'd have to activate it in response to a daze in order to have the mana. You can't let the daze resolve and then activate it during.

[lavafrogg]

Can someone help me with the math with how often the card will not be able to hit a land on turn 2?

in a deck with 8 fetches and 4 wastelands.... 24% so 25% for all intents and purposes. And we will say you are playing a deck with just fetch lands, best case scenario is fetch lands and wastelands. So the percentages are roughly 50% turn 2 mana acceleration in a optimal situation and 25% against a deck with all basics. Considering the amount of 1cc disruption or 2cc beaters the deck would most likely play the option of eating a land and going to 3 mana will only be needed in certain situations anyways. In addition to the percentages of having lands that do not go to the graveyard is the percentage of games you will not open with a death rite shaman, which will be a high percentage of your games anyways.

Current options GB decks use: mox diamond, veteran explorer, dark ritual.

Even without accelerating you to three mana on turn 2, deathrite shaman provides great utility that can drop on turn one and is not dead in the late game. You have to remember that the life gain and life drain is in addition to every other positive benifit the card has...ie removing cards from the graveyard.

[Humphrey]

Honestly, I've never seen Garruk Relentless in any Maverik list, or even legacy lists for that matter, what so ever. Lingering Souls, however, is being played in various stoneblade variants, so you could probably chuck it in Thought Scour's slot.

check GP Ghent T8 Decklists for example

Garruck and Elspeth are often played in Maverick MD or SB to beat UW Miracles

[menace13]

Firemind's Foresight can only search for instants, so you can't get invoke the firemind or epic experiment. Apparently the Firemind didn't have that much foresight after all.

It is better suited for non-black decks where Merchant Scroll would be also played. Right now I thinks its best applications are in Ruhan, Niv, and Nin to tutor Counterspells, and Removal. Riku doesn't really play a ton of Instants at all, same for Animar, or Maelstrom wanderer.

Def Not Legacy Playable.

[Einherjer]

check GP Ghent T8 Decklists for example

Garruck and Elspeth are often played in Maverick MD or SB to beat UW Miracles

They're not only great vs Miracle, Garruck is hardly beatable for Stoneblade unless you do not have some oppressing board-state already.

Greetings

[SpikeyMikey]

Can someone help me with the math with how often the card will not be able to hit a land on turn 2?

If you're running 8 fetch lands, you have a 65.4% chance of drawing one in your opening 7. That goes up to 70.6% if you're on the draw. Average that out, you get 68%. Since you have a 39.9% chance of starting with any 4-of in your opening hand (going up to 44.5% on the draw), you're actually looking at a 26.1% chance of a self-activating Deathrite Shaman on the play. That's 31.4% on the draw, or, the most useful number, an average of 28.8%.

Now you can also eat your opponents fetchlands. But if you are on the play and open with Deathrite Shaman, it's almost certain that they will not open with a fetchland if they have another land to play. Let's say your opponent is also running 8 fetchlands with 20 lands total. We'll shoot the difference between RUG and the rest of the format. You're looking at 19% of the time on the play and 14.7% on the draw where they won't have a non-fetch land. If they're on the play, they won't know to play around Deathrite Shaman, so we'll ignore those numbers for now. The actual %age of activations when you're on the draw will be higher than 19%. On the play, however, your opponent will see 14.7% of their opening hands contain no lands that aren't fetchlands. 3% of those are no-land hands and we can safely call them auto-mulls. So our opponent will be forced to play into our acceleration. Except there's one important thing to note. If they have no turn 1 plays, they can drop the fetch and wait until our end of turn step or their own upkeep to crack it.

[lyracian]

They key thing about Shaman is its versatility.
I see this card being Legacy playable. The question is, what currently viable deck(s) want this guy?BUG Control decks are probably a good place to start looking. If you are using Mox Diamond and Fetches you have a lot of options for getting Lands into your graveyard. I am also wondering if I could make some sort of Loam-Pox varient deck using him rather than cards like the Rack and Cursed Scroll?

I could also see using him as a one of instead of BOP in Maverick. Most Maverick decks have at least one Bog anyway so they can make Black mana. Not sure he would add enough though since making mana would mostly shrink your own Knights.

At the end of the day he may not be good enough. While not the most powerful card in the set he is still the most, IMO, interesting card in the set.

[joven]

If you have one Deathrite Shaman in your starting 7 you have a 54,85% chance to have also at least one fetchland out of 8 from your 60 card deck in the remaining 6 hand cards.
In the rare cases you have 2 / 3 / 4 shamans in starting 7 you have 48,7% / 41,7% / 33,5% chance to have also at least one fetchland out of 8 in the remain hand cards.
I'm not quite sure how to add these conditional probabilities together (probably weighted by the probability of their event but I don't want to consider cases where I don't have a shaman in opening hand).

I would also add 50% of the chance that opponent has at least one fetchland in starting 7: 0,5*65,4%=32,7%. Or maybe more conservatively thought 25% of it: 0,25*65,4%=16,35%

summed up roughly I would estimate at least 54% + 16% = 70% for having a fetchland in graveyard turn 2 when I have a shaman in opening hand.

[catmint]

Feels too optimistic.

I think the inconsistency of mana producing is the problem. In the early turns you very likely won't spend a mana on doing damage or gaining life so you only activate him for the other abilities if you are already hating out. Therefore producing mana reliably for several early turns will be needed or you just have a 1/2, which could be good later (does not sound promising to me).

So if he is not reliable enough as a manasource and his abilities are seldom used early, my guess is that it won't replace noble hierarchs/birds of paradises but some decks like Nic Fit will use him as a zenith target.

I don't see him in a Loam deck. you don't want to use shaman for mana early because you want to get lands back with loam right? :) After loaming a lot what's the point of mana acceleration. :rolleyes:

Edit: Even if Shaman does something against decks that utilize the graveyard (snapcaster, Goyf, Goose, Knight, Lingering Souls,...), my feeling is that spending a card and a lot of mana to hate some of their cards out, can make you fall behind in tempo. Also if you see the shaman you can try to play around, attack from a different angle or just trade for it.

[Barook]

If you have one Deathrite Shaman in your starting 7 you have a 54,85% chance to have also at least one fetchland out of 8 from your 60 card deck in the remaining 6 hand cards.
In the rare cases you have 2 / 3 / 4 shamans in starting 7 you have 48,7% / 41,7% / 33,5% chance to have also at least one fetchland out of 8 in the remain hand cards.
I'm not quite sure how to add these conditional probabilities together (probably weighted by the probability of their event but I don't want to consider cases where I don't have a shaman in opening hand).

I would also add 50% of the chance that opponent has at least one fetchland in starting 7: 0,5*65,4%=32,7%. Or maybe more conservatively thought 25% of it: 0,25*65,4%=16,35%

summed up roughly I would estimate at least 54% + 16% = 70% for having a fetchland in graveyard turn 2 when I have a shaman in opening hand.
I don't think it's that easy - you must also consider Wastelands and Duals.

[Pin_Vlc]

Deathrite Shaman is the new card for my False Cure deck :cool: .

[m1rado]

(no picture yet, sorry)

Conjured Currency 5U Rare
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may exchange control of Conjured Currency and target permanent you neither own or control

Possible sideboard material against Show and Tell? Sort of awkward, but unless they drop something with haste, you get it instead of them. I suppose Gilded Drake just does the job better?

[rufus]

(no picture yet, sorry)

Conjured Currency 5U Rare
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may exchange control of Conjured Currency and target permanent you neither own or control

Possible sideboard material against Show and Tell? Sort of awkward, but unless they drop something with haste, you get it instead of them. I suppose Gilded Drake just does the job better?

With Griselbrand/Omniscience, people can (effectively) finish the game the same turn they SnT, so dropping CC wouldn't help much.

[Gheizen64]

Yeah SnT would need a much stronger hatecard, that's like soft water.

Something like:

Pay the price R
Creature - ZZZ
Sacrifice zzz, deal damage to target opponent equal to the highest cmc permanent between permanents he or she control
1/1

[Finn]

That would have to cost 3 mana methinks. That's too much for a proper hoser in Legacy. Try narrowing it and get out of red.

[ScatmanX]

That would have to cost 3 mana methinks. That's too much for a proper hoser in Legacy. Try narrowing it and get out of red.

Awesome Omniscience Hoser
2W
Enchantment
When Awesome Omniscience Hoser enters the battlefield, remove Omniscience from the game.
When Awesome Omniscience Hoser leaves the battlefield, return Omniscience from the game.

Oh, wait...

[Dela]

I think the Shaman is very interesting and I think it goes without saying that it plays very well along wasteland and perhaps even sinkhole.

It will change the lines of play your opponent makes by playing an early Shaman. For example they might hold a fetchland they typically would play early (Grabbing a basic or a specific dual to turn on their hand) instead choosing to play a dual already available to them to not "turn on" shaman... leaving them vulnerable to wasteland / color screw in the early turns.

Shaman really shines against RUG. Shrinking goyfs, Mongeese, forcing odd fetchland plays, making daze worse, blocking unflipped delvers and small geese, good late game topdeck for damage or lifegain to stay out of burn range.

So the questions become:

What deck featuring black or green or both needed help against the RUG matchup?

What can we use to fuel him? Darkblast? Loam? Do we even need to fuel him?

How consistently does he make early mana? Do we need him to?

With its low and hybrid mana cost, Green suns-ability, a 1/2 body, and 3 abilities that are useful throughout the entire game (Some of which can shutdown entire strategies of decks) I feel confident that shaman and its versatility will find a place in a deck somewhere.

[Barook]

That would have to cost 3 mana methinks. That's too much for a proper hoser in Legacy. Try narrowing it and get out of red.
Why would you get out of red? Red could have decent hate if Wizards would do something more efficient that "Lightning Bolt for way too conditional stuff".

Imagine this:

Red Thalia :1::r:
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
First Strike
Whenever a nonland, nontoken permanent enters the battlefield, if it wasn't played from hand, Red Thalia deals damage equal to its casting cost to its controller.
2/1

I don't think this would be too good. It would basically only punish "unfair" strategies like S&T and Reanimator or cards that don't play fair either, like Vial, GSZ or Lackey.

[alderon666]

Feels too optimistic.

I think the inconsistency of mana producing is the problem. In the early turns you very likely won't spend a mana on doing damage or gaining life so you only activate him for the other abilities if you are already hating out. Therefore producing mana reliably for several early turns will be needed or you just have a 1/2, which could be good later (does not sound promising to me).

So if he is not reliable enough as a manasource and his abilities are seldom used early, my guess is that it won't replace noble hierarchs/birds of paradises but some decks like Nic Fit will use him as a zenith target.

I don't see him in a Loam deck. you don't want to use shaman for mana early because you want to get lands back with loam right? :) After loaming a lot what's the point of mana acceleration. :rolleyes:

Edit: Even if Shaman does something against decks that utilize the graveyard (snapcaster, Goyf, Goose, Knight, Lingering Souls,...), my feeling is that spending a card and a lot of mana to hate some of their cards out, can make you fall behind in tempo. Also if you see the shaman you can try to play around, attack from a different angle or just trade for it.

You make it sound SO hard to get a couple of lands in the graveyard. OMG!

In a deck using Shaman, you're probably using 10 fetchlands + 4 Wastelands at minimum. Then you still have your opponents fetchlands... EVERYBODY PLAYS THOSE! Even freaking monored that top 8'ed last week on SCG used a bunch.

I would say you don't need him to add mana more than 5 time per game. After that you're probably using him just for the abilities.

Bottom line. Just because he is not Birds of Paradise 100% of the time doesn't make it a bad card.

[joven]

I don't think it's that easy - you must also consider Wastelands and Duals.

We only considered Fetchlands so far - and I made a rather conservative estimation. Wastelands and wasted Duals will come on top of that, but most of the time not in turn 1 and 2, I think.
I also like the idea of using Shaman alongside of Sinkholes.




Imagine this:

Red Thalia :1::r:
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
First Strike
Whenever a nonland, nontoken permanent enters the battlefield, if it wasn't played from hand, Red Thalia deals damage equal to its casting cost to its controller.
2/1

I don't think this would be too good. It would basically only punish "unfair" strategies like S&T and Reanimator or cards that don't play fair either, like Vial, GSZ or Lackey.

Nice design! :)

[FieryBalrog]

Red Thalia :1::r:
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
First Strike
Whenever a nonland, nontoken permanent enters the battlefield, if it wasn't played from hand, Red Thalia deals damage equal to its casting cost to its controller.
2/1

Are we really worried about "Red Thalia" hitting people for 0 damage?


Rest in Peace is fine, but I still don't think it's great. If you're running White and you're not playing Goyf or Knight, then it's a good card, but most people aren't doing this.

For E. tutor based Control, you're most likely running Thopters, so you wouldn't want this card. At all.

-Matt

You WERE most likely running thopters :wink: why not just run a 2 card combo with this card instead? Seems hell of a lot better to me to have RIP + Obedience instead of thopter combo when it actually wins the game and RIP is a really decent card even without the other half of the combo.

[xeraseth]

Are we really worried about "Red Thalia" hitting people for 0 damage?
Tokens can have CMC

[FieryBalrog]

Tokens can have CMC

When (tokens from a clone effect)? And would such a corner case be remotely worth mentioning?

[(nameless one)]

Why would you get out of red? Red could have decent hate if Wizards would do something more efficient that "Lightning Bolt for way too conditional stuff".

Imagine this:

Red Thalia :1::r:
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
First Strike
Whenever a nonland, nontoken permanent enters the battlefield, if it wasn't played from hand, Red Thalia deals damage equal to its casting cost to its controller.
2/1

I don't think this would be too good. It would basically only punish "unfair" strategies like S&T and Reanimator or cards that don't play fair either, like Vial, GSZ or Lackey.

This would be better if it was a Goblin and wasn't legendary. It's gonna be red's super two drop.

[Aggro_zombies]

This would be better if it was a Goblin and wasn't legendary. It's gonna be red's super two drop.
Considering it (a) makes Aether Vial worse in one of the format's prominent Aether Vial decks and (b) is a Goblin Piker in the vast majority of matchups, I would think it would be a pretty terrible card.

EDIT: I guess it hits GSZ too. Still not that great.

[rufus]

When (tokens from a clone effect)? And would such a corner case be remotely worth mentioning?

Kiki-Jiki/Splinter Twin have been significant in modern.

...Isn't there a thread for bad card designs?

Clearly never going to be printed but:


Fair Play
Enchantment
:1::r:
Cards that would enter play without being cast enter play face down as 2/2 creatures with
"Pay this card's mana cost: turn this card face up" instead.


A goblin that punishes cheating cards into play would also have anti-synergy with lackey and instigator.

[catmint]

You make it sound SO hard to get a couple of lands in the graveyard. OMG!

In a deck using Shaman, you're probably using 10 fetchlands + 4 Wastelands at minimum. Then you still have your opponents fetchlands... EVERYBODY PLAYS THOSE! Even freaking monored that top 8'ed last week on SCG used a bunch.

I would say you don't need him to add mana more than 5 time per game. After that you're probably using him just for the abilities.

Bottom line. Just because he is not Birds of Paradise 100% of the time doesn't make it a bad card.

I don't think it is a bad card at all. All I said that him beeing a 4of or a zenith target will be decided on his abilitiy to consistently produce enough mana in the early turns. Because if that is not the case people will too often be stuck with a 1/2 that hase some applications for later on and that will often not be good enough I think. My guess is that it won't be consistent enough to replace all hierarchs and birds in this world.

As for how likely it is for him to produce enough mana early: I am a fan of testing and enough calculations have been made. It is surely easy (and very common) to get lands in the yard (did not say anything else), but even if the shaman just sits around 20% of the early turns without doing "anything" (because you need your mana for something else) my guess is that people will rather tutor for him in specific situations.

Another factor supporting the "not 4 of theory" is that he does not shine in multiples (except you need intensive GY hate). Multiple Hierarchs pump an attacker and always give you mana...

[joven]

I don't think it is a bad card at all. All I said that him beeing a 4of or a zenith target will be decided on his abilitiy to consistently produce enough mana in the early turns. Because if that is not the case people will too often be stuck with a 1/2 that hase some applications for later on and that will often not be good enough I think. My guess is that it won't be consistent enough to replace all hierarchs and birds in this world.

As for how likely it is for him to produce enough mana early: I am a fan of testing and enough calculations have been made. It is surely easy (and very common) to get lands in the yard (did not say anything else), but even if the shaman just sits around 20% of the early turns without doing "anything" (because you need your mana for something else) my guess is that people will rather tutor for him in specific situations.

Another factor supporting the "not 4 of theory" is that he does not shine in multiples (except you need intensive GY hate). Multiple Hierarchs pump an attacker and always give you mana...

I guess, no one says Deathrite Shaman is better than Noble Hierarch.
I still think, Shaman is unique in that he brings the concept of mana dork to non-green decks that could run him (those with Black). This will surely not turn Legacy upside down but I hope it makes some non-green decks more playable.

Two shamans can make two mana if two lands happen to be in graveyards. Maybe that doesn't need to be often (casting one Abyssal Persecutor or maybe Baneslayer Angel would suffice). Or one can make mana while the other can gravehate.

[Final Fortune]

I haven't been impressed with Deathrite Shaman as a 4x, because they don't stack very well, but as a 1x it's another Exalted Hierarch that gives Green Sun's Zenith more utility when you want something between acceleration and utility where the direct damage and life gain are relevant and the RFG randomly irritates the opponent.

[Hanni]

Since I missed the first 45 pages, and the last 3 have been about the Shaman, I wanted to say how awesome Detention Sphere is. That thing is going straight into my U/W Control deck in place of Oblivion Ring.

Now if only they would print a 1UW Instant that said "Exile target nonland permanent".... =/

[Kanti]

I would like to reiterate just how good Detention Sphere is.

Though I haven't but it to use in Legacy yet (I tend to steer clear of anything thats UW and isn't Fish) I have replaced my Echoing Truths with it in my Modern Second Sunrise deck.

RFGing nasty creatures that put me on a clock all day. Two at a time.

[preddi]

Since I missed the first 45 pages, and the last 3 have been about the Shaman, I wanted to say how awesome Detention Sphere is. That thing is going straight into my U/W Control deck in place of Oblivion Ring.

Now if only they would print a 1UW Instant that said "Exile target nonland permanent".... =/

Hmm I like the sphere too, but it beeing blue is not just an upside. I play 2 O-Ring after board to have an out against SnT -> Omni, but after board they bring in Red blasts, I think O-Ring is better against this kind of decks than the Sphere.
Against everything without blasts the Sphere is a strict upgrade to O-Ring.
I'm not so sure if I would play it right now.

[lyracian]

Now if only they would print a 1UW Instant that said "Exile target nonland permanent".... =/I expect it will only be a matter of time.


Since I missed the first 45 pages, and the last 3 have been about the Shaman, I wanted to say how awesome Detention Sphere is. That thing is going straight into my U/W Control deck in place of Oblivion Ring. Detention Sphere and RIP are looking to be my top pick from the set for cards I know will go into decks. Shaman is the card I want to use; just not sure how best to do so...

[joven]

Problem of Detention Sphere is that it's multicolored and that it can't target an opponent's Detention Sphere. Like when O-Ring wouldn't be able to target an opponent's O-Ring, might be relevant some time.
Upside is that it's pitchable to FoW and it hits all permanents with the same name.
But apart from that it is just another O-Ring.

[alderon666]

Hmm I like the sphere too, but it beeing blue is not just an upside. I play 2 O-Ring after board to have an out against SnT -> Omni, but after board they bring in Red blasts, I think O-Ring is better against this kind of decks than the Sphere.
Against everything without blasts the Sphere is a strict upgrade to O-Ring.
I'm not so sure if I would play it right now.

Minor interaction here, probably never going to matter. You can use your own Pyroblast to turn the Sphere into a "Vindicate". Just destroy the Sphere with its remove ability in the stack. This could be useful if you know the opponent has his own Pyroblast/Bounce spell and you don't want the thing to come back (Emrakul/CITP ability creature?).

[Mr. Safety]

I haven't been impressed with Deathrite Shaman as a 4x, because they don't stack very well, but as a 1x it's another Exalted Hierarch that gives Green Sun's Zenith more utility when you want something between acceleration and utility where the direct damage and life gain are relevant and the RFG randomly irritates the opponent.

Going to test 1x Shaman with GSZ because of these exact reasons. I'm not sure its better than Scavenging Ooze in the randomly nicking opponent's graveyard but it has the potential to hit sooner with GSZ and provides reach.

It seems like a great utility creature for Rock decks. It gains you 2 life, it dings your opponent's for 2 life, AND it accelerates your mana if you need it. A nice package.

[lavafrogg]

I still feel that Scavenging Ooze is more of the heavy hitter GSZ target and Shaman is more of the 4x utility drop that you want to see every game.

[bowvamp]

Except why would you run Shaman as a 4-of unless you wanted 8x Noble Hierarch. Shaman is not going to be > 1 of.

[lavafrogg]

Not in maverick or bant?

[Hanni]

Hmm I like the sphere too, but it beeing blue is not just an upside. I play 2 O-Ring after board to have an out against SnT -> Omni, but after board they bring in Red blasts, I think O-Ring is better against this kind of decks than the Sphere.
Against everything without blasts the Sphere is a strict upgrade to O-Ring.
I'm not so sure if I would play it right now.

I'd rather open myself up to REB postboard to gain the ability to pitch my O-Ring's to FoW in every matchup, since they tend to be clunky in opening hands. Clunky cards are the kinds of cards I usually want to pitch to FoW in the early game.

Not being able to hit opposing Detentions Spheres is whatever, since I'm sure there are plenty of other good targets in the mirror I can use it on instead. Sure I could get my Jace back, but I couldalso blow up their Counterbalance instead, etc etc.

The fact that this thing has the ability to exile multiple stuffs is a massive upgrade to O-Ring, giving it card advantage potential and the possibility of dealing with some really bad board states (multiples of Delvers, Knights, Chalices, whatever).

[Koby]

Not in maverick or bant?

Which non-Maverick or Bant deck wants mana dorks?
NO-RUG already plays Hierarch for the blue mana.
BG/x board control doesn't benefit since it uses sweepers.
BG/x mid-range plays threats that are in the 2-3 mana range, so the acceleration is often wasted.

I'm sort of at a loss where Deathrite Shaman fits into the Legacy metagame.

[Vacrix]

I look at Shaman as a card thats going to be really, really good in some matchups, and mediocre in others. The fact that it stops Snapcaster, KoTR, Mongoose, Goyf, and Lingering Souls is going to give it a lot of applications against control decks that play these cards. In Dredge and Reanimator its a fucking bomb 1 drop. Against Goblins it stops Lackey. Against Storm it will occasionally turn off IGG/PIF. Against Maverick, it shrinks KoTR really nicely, which is arguably their strongest aggressive creature, and it can be good against Scavenging Ooze as well. Against any deck playing Loam, so Lands, Aggro Loam, Loam Pox, etc. its going to have a crucial application.

But against Merfolk, Show and Tell, Burn, Death and Taxes, and UW Miracles it has very little application, perhaps against Snapcaster against Miracles but thats barely anything since they don't often play it as a 4'of. But thats the case with plenty of cards; they simply don't have strong applications against every deck you'll encounter. I think it will be a 2 or 3 of but 4 is pushing it since they don't stack an Exalted trigger.

Still, it looks like its going to be a powerful card since it hates really well on unfair graveyard strategies like Reanimator and Dredge while compromising the efficacy of some of the most powerful creatures that see play, most of which use the graveyard in some way. If you look at it as a mana dork that has other relevant abilites, you're doing it wrong. Its an anti-graveyard 1 drop that is also a mana dork.

[Greenpoe]

Which non-Maverick or Bant deck wants mana dorks?
NO-RUG already plays Hierarch for the blue mana.
BG/x board control doesn't benefit since it uses sweepers.
BG/x mid-range plays threats that are in the 2-3 mana range, so the acceleration is often wasted.

I'm sort of at a loss where Deathrite Shaman fits into the Legacy metagame.

The accel is wasted because they play 2 and 3 mana threats? Hierarch has seen play in a billion decks for years and those decks barely scratch the surface of 4 cmc cards, playing almost all 3 or less. (This is less true today with GSZ, but still). At any rate, if you find you sometimes have extra mana, there's tons of ways to be able to utilize it without screwing yourself over when you don't have that extra mana, such as card advantage (Confidant), alternative casting cards (such as evoke creatures like Shriekmaw), tutors (GSZ, Living Wish) or any card-selection type cards, etc.

[lavafrogg]

I love talking about cards that have not even come out. I feel that GB and GBw decks are going to grab the shaman and run, getting better as they grow in popularity. The shaman will always be able to attack or pick up a jitte and go to town, he has great synergy getting around ground stalls caused by maze of ith and knight of reliquary.

Most of the GBw midrange decks would love to cast their planeswalkers a turn earlier, their knights on turn two or even discard and a goyf/bob on the second turn of the game. Being able to zenith for two on turn two will help in match ups where you want a fast teeg or ooze, and it also gives you more options as the game drags on.

I have said this before 10 instants or sorceries in any graveyard over the course of the game means that the shaman can kill you outside of the combat step. He can easily be used to "burn" someone out of the game and in multiples he can kill quite fast.

He is a turn one answer to dredge, loam, reanimator, lackey, snapcaster and some recursion engines used by combo decks. Against fair decks he eats creatures that have died in combat or have been swept away by an EE(sweeper that plays the nicest with the shaman), to pad your life total from the alpha strike or to keep you out of burn range.

All of this is in addition to the great chance he acts as mana fixing/acceleration, he also allows you to hit higher numbers on your engineered explosives and keeps wasteland from ruining your day because if you get wastelanded he has fuel for the next two turns!

He keeps your mana flowing when you are waste landing every turn with Knight of the reliquary and eats anything discarded by thoughtseize/hymn/IoK/Lilliana/duress/whatever for fun and profit!

While you are playing over the next few weeks, look at your graveyards throughout the games you play, every instant/sorcery is two life lost and every creature is two life gained. See where that would help you or just outright win the game. This card is a must kill mana dork that has built in hate for the graveyard and a out of combat kill condition, all for the low low price of 1 green or black mana.

Seems good...

Really good...

The deck he will find a home in will appear shortly, it just hasn't been made yet,

[Finn]

Koby, why does Shaman need an existing deck?

[Koby]

Koby, why does Shaman need an existing deck?

The premium in running creatures is that they probide avsokute advantage if you untap with them. Deathrite Shaman is condituonal in every ability, and based on one of the easiest resources to disrupt. Which deck can afford to pay :1:C for effectively: guild charm.

[Aggro_zombies]

The premium in running creatures is that they probide avsokute advantage if you untap with them. Deathrite Shaman is condituonal in every ability, and based on one of the easiest resources to disrupt. Which deck can afford to pay :1:C for effectively: guild charm.
Are you drunk or something?

Anyway, bizarre writing aside, this post is essentially correct. Deathrite Shaman has the option of being a bad Scavenging Ooze (since it doesn't grow and can only be used once per turn cycle), a bad Grim Lavamancer (since it can't also shoot creatures, which is often the more relevant part of GL's ability), or a mediocre Noble Hierarch (although needing a land isn't too onerous, not granting exalted is actually relevant). I know this sounds odd given that I started this thread excited about Izzet Charm, but three mediocre abilities stapled together does not a good card make. This guy isn't nearly powerful enough to enable a new deck, and he's not strong enough or versatile enough to edge out slots in many existing decks.

That said, his playability is more-or-less solely dependent on how often you can activate the black ability.

[lavafrogg]

The premium in running creatures is that they probide avsokute advantage if you untap with them. Deathrite Shaman is conditional in every ability, and based on one of the easiest resources to disrupt. Which deck can afford to pay :1:C for effectively: guild charm.

As the graveyard is one of the easiest resources to disrupt, the card uses both graveyards which very few cards actually affect. Barring the new hotness that is Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus is the only card that axes both graveyards. If your opponent is spending mana and an active scavenging ooze to turn off your one drop I feel that you are gaining a tempo and mana advantage in the long and short run.

He changes the game when he is in play, as long as a graveyard is a active resource. If they are siding in cards to hate on your one drop mana dork, then that is more hate not directed at the rest of your strategy...or a bolt not targeted at a BoB.

In testing you eat what you ca, when you can and let the benefits add up over the course of the game. A turn one Shaman will add anywhere from 1-3 mana, 2-6 life and drain 2-8 life in an average game, as the black ability has been the most commonly used ability by far, and this has been without graveyard dumping cards of any kind life Grisly Savage, or Life from the Loam.

I played a game yesterday where the guy led with a shaman and followed with heavy disruption, hymn/sinkhole, and filtered his library with grisly salvaged. In one of the games he drew multiple shamans and raced me with the life gain and life loss... kind of dumb. He was also allowed to play a fast tombstalker and large goyfs off of the graveyard and mana dork. It was an interesting idea that will most likely see some play in legacy after the set is released.

[Barook]

The R/B hybrid 1cc drop got me thinking: Did we reach the critical mass of 2-power :b: creatures yet?

Including the new Rakdos Cackler, you can run Carnophage, Sarcomancy, Diregraf Ghoul, Gravecrawler and Vampire Lacerator.

Maybe some kind of X land Zombie Stompy deck with Dark Rituals?

Black has lots of quality discard to offer for :b:. Pump could include Bad Moon, Jitte and/or Dark Triumph.

If you want to go for the balls to the walls Suicide Black route, you can run removal like Snuff Out, Dismember and Vendetta. Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe (awesome synergy with Therapy) increase the consistency of the deck.

But why so much life loss? To power up Death's Shadow, the ultimate :b: drop.

Most likely it's just a really janky deck idea, but it sounds like fun.

[joemauer]

I still think Deathrite Shaman is neat.

Paired up with Abrupt Decay, they could make Eva Green a playable deck again.

Also, he gives Mono-Black a Mana Creature. This is something Mono-Black has never had before.

Deathrite Shaman doesn't sound over the top good, but does sound like he is worth brewing and testing with.

[Finn]

The premium in running creatures is that they probide avsokute advantage if you untap with them. Deathrite Shaman is condituonal in every ability, and based on one of the easiest resources to disrupt. Which deck can afford to pay C for effectively: guild charm.You are saying that this card is bad because sided in hate can neutralize it? You mean, Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt are not valid ways to get rid of it - and less common than Relic of Progenitus? I think it is safe to say that if my opponents are siding in hate for it the card is kinda good.

Anyway, bizarre writing aside, this post is essentially correct. Deathrite Shaman has the option of being a bad Scavenging Ooze (since it doesn't grow and can only be used once per turn cycle), a bad Grim Lavamancer (since it can't also shoot creatures, which is often the more relevant part of GL's ability), or a mediocre Noble Hierarch (although needing a land isn't too onerous, not granting exalted is actually relevant). I know this sounds odd given that I started this thread excited about Izzet Charm, but three mediocre abilities stapled together does not a good card make. This guy isn't nearly powerful enough to enable a new deck, and he's not strong enough or versatile enough to edge out slots in many existing decks.A Swiss army knife is a shitty alternative to an electric screwdriver. And its tweezers are tiny, misshapen, and not strong compared to a proper pair. Finally, the blade is tedious for slicing up apples compared to a carving knife. But the only one of these things I keep in my car is the Swiss army knife.

You have to consider roles here. I would not be surprised in the least if this card had a greater long-term impact on graveyard-dependent decks than Rest in Peace because it is not a side board card.

[Awaclus]

The R/B hybrid 1cc drop got me thinking: Did we reach the critical mass of 2-power :b: creatures yet?

Including the new Rakdos Cackler, you can run Carnophage, Sarcomancy, Diregraf Ghoul, Gravecrawler and Vampire Lacerator.

Maybe some kind of X land Zombie Stompy deck with Dark Rituals?

Black has lots of quality discard to offer for :b:. Pump could include Bad Moon, Jitte and/or Dark Triumph.

If you want to go for the balls to the walls Suicide Black route, you can run removal like Snuff Out, Dismember and Vendetta. Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe (awesome synergy with Therapy) increase the consistency of the deck.

But why so much life loss? To power up Death's Shadow, the ultimate :b: drop.

Most likely it's just a really janky deck idea, but it sounds like fun.
Doesn't sound like Dark Ritual would shine in this deck. You'd probably have Hymn and Bob there as well, but still, most of your cards would be 1cc or have an alternative cost. Dark Ritual allows some crazy first turn plays, but to me, the card disadvantage feels too big. Vial could do wonders there, though.

[Justin]

The R/B hybrid 1cc drop got me thinking: Did we reach the critical mass of 2-power :b: creatures yet?

Including the new Rakdos Cackler, you can run Carnophage, Sarcomancy, Diregraf Ghoul, Gravecrawler and Vampire Lacerator.

Maybe some kind of X land Zombie Stompy deck with Dark Rituals?

Black has lots of quality discard to offer for :b:. Pump could include Bad Moon, Jitte and/or Dark Triumph.

If you want to go for the balls to the walls Suicide Black route, you can run removal like Snuff Out, Dismember and Vendetta. Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe (awesome synergy with Therapy) increase the consistency of the deck.

But why so much life loss? To power up Death's Shadow, the ultimate :b: drop.

Most likely it's just a really janky deck idea, but it sounds like fun.

Here's my take on Zombie Stompy from the Casual Budget forum: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23237-Zombie-Swarm

I like the idea of just going with 16 2-power zombies and Death Baron as a "lord." Seems like an OK budget option if you like tribal decks.

[jhhdk]

I know Pack Rat won't have a big impact on anything, but I am still intrigued whether something fun could be built with this card. I realize that Terminus running rampant is bad for this card, but am still drawn to it's possibility for exponential board dominance.

Any ideas as to what it would take to make this playable?

[rufus]

I know Pack Rat won't have a big impact on anything, but I am still intrigued whether something fun could be built with this card. ...
Any ideas as to what it would take to make this playable?

It requires :2::b: to activate, which is too much for most stuff in legacy. If you're committed to casual play you could try something with the rat, Training Day,Heartstone and Izzet Guidmage.

Rat tribal running discard effects could also work, but I'm not sure it can reach critical mass fast enough.

[lavafrogg]

For sure in Rat tribal! This is the big 2cc rat beater that is has needed for so long, and it turns dead ravenous rats into monsters!!!

[Lemnear]

Top 5 traded cards from the expansion on magiccardmarket:

1. R.I.P.
2. Deathrite Shaman
3. Armada Wurm
4. Jarad's Orders
5. Loleth Troll

Top 2 were imo expectable cross-format. I know that Legacy is a slooooooow adapting format but I ask non the less: Are any cards from the expansion already played in Legacy? Aside from peeps that try Shaman in Rock's i haven't seen/heared anything in brewing

[Final Fortune]

Top 5 traded cards from the expansion on magiccardmarket:

1. R.I.P.
2. Deathrite Shaman
3. Armada Wurm
4. Jarad's Orders
5. Loleth Troll

Top 2 were imo expectable cross-format. I know that Legacy is a slooooooow adapting format but I ask non the less: Are any cards from the expansion already played in Legacy? Aside from peeps that try Shaman in Rock's i haven't seen/heared anything in brewing

Judge's Familiar, Detention Sphere and Abrupt Decay are definitely seeing play fwiw.

[lavafrogg]

R.I.P, Dryad Militant, Detention Sphere, Abrupt Decay, grisly salvage, ash zealot will see play, even if only fringe. Legacy might be too fast for RIP, for the decks you need graveyard hate against(dredge, reanimator) can either strip a 2cc card from your hand of just resolve their bombs before they hit.... if they kept good hands.

Deathrite shaman at the least will make a lot of fun zombie/graveyard decks fun, especially with grisly salvage.

RIP is a combo/hate/lock piece all in one in a energy field/helm deck someone will play it and top 16 a SCG.

Abrupt decay is going to give a huge boost to green black midrange....until it is picked up by Team America and everything returns to normal. "it kills 95% of threats in the format, it can't be countered, and I can counter what it can't kill!! OMG Win!"-some Team America Player, and he is right.

BG brews will be super popular at first but the the great blue machine will cherry pick the best cards and assimilate them into their 75's and it will be back to normal for everyone else.

Ash zealot is playable in burn as a hasty creature that makes snapcaster and dredge players flinch.

Mana Bloom is unique and will have a home somewhere casual and fun. Azorius charm is pretty solid, centaur healer is a 3/3 for three that gains you 3 life, like a faster, better version of baloth, dreadbore will be played in jund or radkos lists that pop up because the ability to kill anything is fucking awesome...and that is most likely what will trickle down to legacy land.

[sco0ter]

and that is most likely what will trickle down to legacy land.

Rakdos, Lord of Riots
Supreme Verdict
Judge's Familiar

most Charms

probably too.

I can see Izzet Charm do good work in Welder Control.

[(nameless one)]

I can see Izzet Charm do good work in Welder Control.

If Emrakul wasn't everywhere, Painter-Stone just had an awesome addition with this. I guess you can splash white to have a secondary combo in the form of Auriok Salvager + Lion's Eye Diamond. Why can't Salvager be red. Dammit WotC! Dammit!

Also, why can't we have a 1/1 for :2::r: that tutors any artifacts.

[kwis]

I know Pack Rat won't have a big impact on anything, but I am still intrigued whether something fun could be built with this card. I realize that Terminus running rampant is bad for this card, but am still drawn to it's possibility for exponential board dominance.

Any ideas as to what it would take to make this playable?

I was thinking that Pack Rat might find himself a home in a black deck that was able to abuse Veilborn Ghoul, Liliana, Lingering Souls, and potentially Lotleth Troll. (standard)

I'd agree that I don't see him doing anything impressive in legacy.

[jamis]

I'd be curious to see Armada Wurm in BGW Nic Fit. It seems really nice in the lists packing Reccurring Nightmare. Sun Titan still may be better though.

[xfxf]

I just read Drew Levin's article about RtR and in regards to Rest In Peace he says "The correct thing for a RUG player to do, if this catches on, is start playing more Thought Scours."

I wonder how he was able to miss the part where the cards says "if a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead". So how exactly exiling your cards will help you?

[theillest]

I just read Drew Levin's article about RtR and in regards to Rest In Peace he says "The correct thing for a RUG player to do, if this catches on, is start playing more Thought Scours."

I wonder how he was able to miss the part where the cards says "if a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead". So how exactly exiling your cards will help you?

e. tutor?