Return to Ravnica Spoilers

[Aggro_zombies]

So, we're getting a bunch of spoilers from the Duel Deck (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/210), as well as confirmation on Populate as the Selesnya mechanic courtesy of MTGS.

But the one card that caught my eye is Izzet Charm:

Izzet Charm
:u::r:
Instant
Choose one - Spell Pierce; draw two, then discard two; or Shock a creature.

Will this see play? The card seems decently powerful for all three modes, even at two mana.

[Chikenbok]

Just saw the card as well, looks quite decent. Perhaps could be built into a delver/snapcaster grixis tempo shell, seems like it might be pretty powerful. Although it might be strictly worse than playing spell pierce/lightning bolt/instant speed careful study?

Grixis reanimator delver backup tempo plan?

[Malchar]

It's basically every utility you could ever want, but it costs twice as much as casting any of these cards individually. I don't think it's really worth it in legacy since you have so much card filtering already, you can usually find whatever you need. For example, compare it to counterspell, or fire//ice. I definitely want to play this in my standard deck though. I just have to choose if I want to run this, or lingering souls, or both.

[menace13]

So, we're getting a bunch of spoilers from the Duel Deck (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/210), as well as confirmation on Populate as the Selesnya mechanic courtesy of MTGS.

But the one card that caught my eye is Izzet Charm:

Izzet Charm
:u::r:
Instant
Choose one - Spell Pierce; draw two, then discard two; or Shock a creature.

Will this see play? The card seems decently powerful for all three modes, even at two mana.
Great Modern and Std card.

[Nihil Credo]

Closest comparison is to Fire//Ice, and sticking a Spell Pierce in the mix is about as fucking good as a third option gets. On the other side, when people are playing Forked Bolt over Fire//Ice it suggests that the ability to take down two Maverick dorks at once, and to do it for only 1R when one of them is Thalia, is also really fucking important.

Non-Tendrils combo decks might like it more than "fair" decks. Two mana is steep, but a single card that can remove hate bears, fight counter wars, and dig (and drop Griselbrand in the graveyard)? Sounds pretty attractive for the eternal problem of siding in extra protection without slowing down your engine.

[Shawon]

I really fucking hope Delve comes back. Most likely in Dimir if it does. Scavenge seems only good in Limited.

That charm blows for Legacy, but I love it's just UR and not 1UR. I like the design patter of Izzet Charm that's going to recur with the other charms: have one ability that's clearly blue, one clearly red, and one that's a little bit of both.

[Aggro_zombies]

I really fucking hope Delve comes back. Most likely in Dimir if it does. Scavenge seems only good in Limited.

That charm blows for Legacy, but I love it's just UR and not 1UR. I like the design patter of Izzet Charm that's going to recur with the other charms: have one ability that's clearly blue, one clearly red, and one that's a little bit of both.
All of the guilds get brand-new mechanics, according to MaRo.

[Amon Amarth]

Dreg Mangler
1bg
Creature - Plant Zombie Uncommon
Haste
Scavenge 3{B}{G}
Illus. Peter Mohrbacher 3/3

This is why I liked the original Ravnica so much: just good creatures with interesting abilities. I'm a sucker for the "Watchwolves" of the MTG world so this is pretty cool. Might not be the greaterest card of all time in Legacy but it's certainly Constructed playable.

[UnsungHero]

Excited to see Life From the Loam in the Duel Deck!

[Aggro_zombies]

Dreg Mangler
1bg
Creature - Plant Zombie Uncommon
Haste
Scavenge 3{B}{G}
Illus. Peter Mohrbacher 3/3

This is why I liked the original Ravnica so much: just good creatures with interesting abilities. I'm a sucker for the "Watchwolves" of the MTG world so this is pretty cool. Might not be the greaterest card of all time in Legacy but it's certainly Constructed playable.
If there's some sort of BUG graveyard deck viable in Standard post-rotation, I'm playing it. This card looks pretty good for that: something like Splinterfright, this, Strangleroot Geist, Snapcaster...

[Vacrix]

Having 3 relevant effects at 2cc looks extremely valuable for Standard and probably Modern as well. But if you look at Legacy... I don't think the Charm's utilities are up to par for a 2cc spell. When Legacy has cards like Brainstorm and Ponder, you don't really need a 2cc spell that does these things. The cantrips function for the same mana cost as these spells do but stuff like Ponder and Brainstorm have additional means of hand/library manipulation via Shuffle with Ponder and putting back 2 cards with Brainstorm. If you need a counterspell, find Spell Pierce/Daze/FoW, etc. Also, I think its relevant that the spell is only spot removal so it can be used as reach late in the game. I'd much rather play the full set of Bolts/Chains in UR Delver than something than play this. You have to cut something to play these cards and frankly its a bit underpowered to warrant cutting something for it. I don't think it will see play in something like UR Delver.

I have to say though, Nihil might be spot on about running it in SnT/Reanimator esque combo decks. Then again, if dropping Grizz/etc. in the yard is relevant, then that must mean the deck is in BUR, and I don't see too many Reanimator decks splashing for red. The charm can counter gravehate though, like Relic or Cage.

[Aggro_zombies]

I have to say though, Nihil might be spot on about running it in SnT/Reanimator esque combo decks. Then again, if dropping Grizz/etc. in the yard is relevant, then that must mean the deck is in BUR, and I don't see too many Reanimator decks splashing for red. The charm can counter gravehate though, like Relic or Cage.
Something like Omniscience-Show or UR Painter might be interested in the Charm - it gives you both a protection and a dig slot from one card while also killing annoying utility dorks in games 2 and 3. The actual discard may be less relevant than the ability to convert a potentially dead counter into two better cards, and those decks should always have fodder to discard in the form of lands or redundant pieces.

[eq.firemind]

I think Draw/Discard part of Charm requires more attention because it is instant. Careful Study/Faithless Looting cost one less mana, but Sorcery speed means a lot more time for your opponent to respond.
Turn one Goblin Welder, turn 2 sitting on open mana.
Removal? Charm!
No removal? Charm EoT, Draw 2, discard a fattie, next turn robot!
Since it needs 2 colors which is restrictive for MUD, maybe it will find its home in some kind of Welder Control deck (it's already in Welder's color, but also blue for FoW count).

[Final Fortune]

It's definitely fringe playable, while it may not be partularly cost effectice at any one role role, it's ability to play three different roles makes it a solid SB card for being able to shore up multiple match ups with the least number of SB cards, I mean how many cards are good, albeit not great, to SB in vs either Storm or Goblins?

I'm not certain it'll see play in Reanimator, it's kind of hard to justify this over Faithless Looting when you /r, but it'll be a bomb in Standard, Extended and Modern for sure and I could see it ending up in an odd deck like Balance/Top with Phyrexian Dreadnought. Pretty much anything playable Counterspell will have to take a look at this instead.

[Darkenslight]

I'm more interested in what the Izzet version of the Guildmage does. TRhe Golgari version seems pretty decent. Sadly, I don't think it's Legacy-worthy.

[Nihil Credo]

Well, last time there was just one Guildmage out of ten that was decent in Eternal (Azorius Guildmage), and that was a bit of a fluke due to "Counter target activated ability" and "Pay a million mana every turn: Tap target Darksteel Colossus" being both useful for Vintage. On the other side, now that they're gold cards rather than hybrids their power level can go up a bit.

[(nameless one)]

The first thing that came to my mind when I saw Izzet Charm was U/R Painter.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134533&stc=1&d=1346042458

Looks like an interesting card. Too bad almost all relevant Legacy spell have 1cc, making it irrelvant in the format.

[rufus]

Anyone want to speculate on there being a decent cards with the 'populate' keyword? It might work if they throw it on :1::w: cards.

[wcm8]

I'm excited for the charm cycle. Versatile 2cmc instants might help push certain color combinations in Legacy. If the Izzet Charm is an indication of their overall power, I would not be surprised to see some of them become new format staples (or at the very least fringe playable).

[xfxf]

I fear the Izzet one could be the best possible charm we get from the set because other combinations like UB, UW, GB have possibilities to push the acceptable power levels so they could end up with rather clunky designs. On the other hand I might just be talking out of my ass.

Edit: Btw Izzet is a teribble name for a fictitious fantasy world guild (I know, I am several years late for this comment) because it is a real world name. A friend of mine has a boyfriend named Izzet.

[Barook]

Anyone want to speculate on there being a decent cards with the 'populate' keyword? It might work if they throw it on :1::w: cards.
The better question is: What are good tokens to copy in the first place? Aside from angel tokens generated by Geist.

The charm design seems interesting. I would love see decent Rakdos and Gruul charms since the power level of :r::g: and especially :b::r: multicolor cards is so goddamn shitty.

[Koby]

I would be quite excited for a :r::b: instant that didn't just read "Terminate" for once. Anything that would give Red more flexibility in all honestly. That color needs some actual identity aside from direct damage.

[Philipp2293]

I'm currently working on URg control, can I have his card right now? Kthx. I think the charm is going to see at least fringe play in some form.

[Aggro_zombies]

I would be quite excited for a :r::b: instant that didn't just read "Terminate" for once. Anything that would give Red more flexibility in all honestly. That color needs some actual identity aside from direct damage.
It looks like the pattern for charms is "something color A can do, something color B can do, something both colors can do." Since Izzet Charm has direct damage to a creature, I suspect the red charm is going to either damage players or be some form of combat trick (power pumping, Falter/target can't block, intimidate). I don't suspect the Rakdos one will be as good, though if the joint mode is a better version of Fall (from Rise//Fall) it might be worth testing.

EDIT: I wonder how tight this cycle will be for mana costs. The Izzet one is clearly pushed for Constructed and will see play in this format in at least a few decks, possibly even some sort of midrange RUG deck. The others...Azorius might find a home in Stoneblade if it has two or more relevant modes, and the same for the green one in Maverick or Bant, but the other two aren't in good color combinations (BG, RB).

[TorpidNinja]

Anyone want to speculate on there being a decent cards with the 'populate' keyword? It might work if they throw it on :1::w: cards.

All I want is a 2/2 with CMC 2 and ETB Populate. But I'm guessing they don't want Splinter Twin 2.0 with Cackling Counterpart.

[nedleeds]

I would be quite excited for a :r::b: instant that didn't just read "Terminate" for once. Anything that would give Red more flexibility in all honestly. That color needs some actual identity aside from direct damage.

Destroy target non-black, non artifact creature or
Return target artifact from your graveyard to your hand or
Each player loses one life for each non-basic land he controls or

A little critter kill, a little burn and some random red artifact utility

Eh ... this still isn't quite good enough.

[Aggro_zombies]

All I want is a 2/2 with CMC 2 and ETB Populate. But I'm guessing they don't want Splinter Twin 2.0 with Cackling Counterpart.
An x/1 EtB populate would have a lot of solutions to it in Standard right now, especially considering it doesn't have haste. Outside of Standard, regular Twin is probably better.

EDIT: Off the top of my head, in Standard:

Rain of Blades
Cower in Fear
Mutilate
Rolling Temblor
Bonfire of the Damned
Terminus

And a bunch of targeted removal:

Unsummon
Searing Spear
Murder
Geistflame
Death Wind
Prey Upon

[rufus]

The better question is: What are good tokens to copy in the first place? Aside from angel tokens generated by Geist.

I was thinking more in terms of quantity than quality..there are some potentially interesting cards.
Devastating Summons
Kutholda Rebirth
Lingering Souls
Firecat Blitz
Saproling Burst
Reap the Seagraf
Empty the Warrens
Zektar Shrine Expedition



All I want is a 2/2 with CMC 2 and ETB Populate. But I'm guessing they don't want Splinter Twin 2.0 with Cackling Counterpart.

Or Dance of Many, or Heat Shimmer...

[Koby]

Destroy target non-black, non artifact creature or
Return target artifact or creature card from a graveyard to the battlefield under your control or
Each player loses one life for each non-basic land he controls or


Fixed it, and now we're talking. Powerful? Indeed. Let's try to push some colors that aren't getting love lately.

[Aggro_zombies]

Fixed it, and now we're talking. Powerful? Indeed. Let's try to push some colors that aren't getting love lately.
This is realistically going to cost, like, five mana minimum.

And if it costs two, I'm splashing it in Reanimator.

[rufus]

Destroy target non-black, non artifact creature or
Return target artifact from your graveyard to your hand or
Each player loses one life for each non-basic land he controls or..

Control/disruption would fit pretty well:

Target player discards two cards
or
Destroy Target Creature
or
Destroy Target Artifact

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Realistic + useful:

Choose one- Destroy target artifact; or destroy target creature that dealt or was dealt damage this turn; or exile all cards in target player's graveyard.

[nedleeds]

Knowing WotC it will be

RB - Dung Charm

Deal 2 damage to target non-flying blue creature OR
Draw a card then discard 3 cards at random and smash your ball sack with a mallet OR
Target Vampire you control looks really goth cool until end of turn, you gain cred with the emotional kids at your junior high

[Barook]

The others...Azorius might find a home in Stoneblade if it has two or more relevant modes, and the same for the green one in Maverick or Bant, but the other two aren't in good color combinations (BG, RB).
The Azorius might contain a blink effect - blink is white while slightly bleeding into blue from time to time (e.g. Momentary Blink).

No idea about the other two - probably something with tapping?

[Final Fortune]

You know, I think Izzet Charm, and any other Charms in this set, may be worth dusting off Ishochron Scepter for Modern.

[Nihil Credo]

Anyone want to speculate on there being a decent cards with the 'populate' keyword? It might work if they throw it on :1::w: cards.
What's your first creature token generator going to be, though? I can think of Bitterblossom and not much else.

[ReAnimator]

The Azorius might contain a blink effect - blink is white while slightly bleeding into blue from time to time (e.g. Momentary Blink).

No idea about the other two - probably something with tapping?

deadeye navigator, Nephalia Smuggler and ghostly flicker seem more than slightly bleeding. It doesn't surprise me in the least they just decided to give blue yet another ability from another colour, any of those cards could have been white easily, but no blue has to do freaking everything so lets just take one of whites few interesting abilities and just shove it into blue.

Agreed though, i could see an azorious charm being something like 1. Bounce a non land non creature 2. blink something 3. tap something.

[Awaclus]

deadeye navigator, Nephalia Smuggler and ghostly flicker seem more than slightly bleeding. It doesn't surprise me in the least they just decided to give blue yet another ability from another colour, any of those cards could have been white easily, but no blue has to do freaking everything so lets just take one of whites few interesting abilities and just shove it into blue.

Agreed though, i could see an azorious charm being something like 1. Bounce a non land non creature 2. blink something 3. tap something.
I might be mistaken, but white's blinking ability usually returns the card at end of turn, while these cards return it immediately.

[ReAnimator]

I might be mistaken, but white's blinking ability usually returns the card at end of turn, while these cards return it immediately.

It's actually pretty evenly split between the two.

[Vacrix]

Fixed it, and now we're talking. Powerful? Indeed.
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n603/Asc3nt/Gifs/th_shock6.gif

Yeeah thats pretty good. Also, which guilds are they starting with? BR? Thats Rakdos no? They'll probably stick with Golgari for the first set.

I'm hoping for something a bit more flavorful:

Golgari Charm BG
Sorcery
Choose one; target opponent sacrifices a creature, or put target creature into play that was put into the graveyard from anywhere this turn, or each player chooses a permanent with the highest converted mana cost among permanents they control and sacrifices that permanent.

Probably OP. Its nuts with Entomb or Careful Study. The Diabolic Edict in BG (doesn't see play anymore), a reanimation spell of sorts, and a way to get rid of permanents. Might be more balanced if 'anywhere' read 'from play'.

[Koby]

deadeye navigator, Nephalia Smuggler and ghostly flicker seem more than slightly bleeding. It doesn't surprise me in the least they just decided to give blue yet another ability from another colour, any of those cards could have been white easily, but no blue has to do freaking everything so lets just take one of whites few interesting abilities and just shove it into blue.

Agreed though, i could see an azorious charm being something like 1. Bounce a non land non creature 2. blink something 3. tap something.

Sadly, all we've seen is a <non-blue> -> blue bleed. It's a one way street as far as R&D is concerned. For example, P/T switching used to be exclusively Red. Now it's tacked onto cantripping Blue instants (http://magiccards.info/som/en/50.html), put on Merfolk (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/56.html), and given to Instant-speed wizards (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/55.html). This isn't the first nor last time the transition has been in favor of blue.

(list for reference (http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3Aswitch+o%3Atarget+o%3Acreature%27s&v=card&s=cname))

Here's hoping for minimal blue-bleed...

EDIT: Before someone mentions card filtering as a blue ability - remember that Red got Wheel of Fortune (discard, then draw) before Blue got Merfolk Looter. In reality, it's been bled to blue, and only now returning (slowly...)

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeeah thats pretty good. Also, which guilds are they starting with? BR? Thats Rakdos no? They'll probably stick with Golgari for the first set.

I'm hoping for something a bit more flavorful:

Golgari Charm BG
Sorcery
Choose one; target opponent sacrifices a creature, or put target creature into play that was put into the graveyard from anywhere this turn, or each player chooses a permanent with the highest converted mana cost among permanents they control and sacrifices that permanent.

Probably OP. Its nuts with Entomb or Careful Study. The Diabolic Edict in BG (doesn't see play anymore), a reanimation spell of sorts, and a way to get rid of permanents. Might be more balanced if 'anywhere' read 'from play'.
The first set has Rakdos, Golgari, Azorius, Selesnya, and Izzet.

I think people's expectations for these charms are waaaaaaaay too high. First, they're uncommon; second, they need to cost two mana (based on what we know right now), and third, they're following a pattern of Color A Ability, Color B Ability, Ability Shared Between A and B. Izzet Charm is probably about as pushed for Constructed as they're willing to make them short of a deliberate attempt to fuck up Standard/Modern. Some of the idea I've seen floating around wouldn't even be okay at rare for two mana, let alone uncommon.

Also remember that the charms need to be loosely connected to the flavor of the guild whose names they bear. Rakdos will likely involve trading resources for short-term gain, Golgari will probably have something to do with life/death, Selesnya will likely play well in a token deck, and Azorius...who knows, that guild was a mess last time.

@ Koby: Blinking has been shared with blue since, well, Momentary Blink. I don't recall there being any blink effects printed between Flicker and Momentary Blink, so the sharing goes back a bit. Note that white also gets self-bounce (like Kor Skyfisher) and slide effects that return EoT (like, well, Astral Slide), and while bounce has been in blue for a long time, sliding isn't.

It's also worth noting that blue has lost Tims to red and is now sharing draw more evenly across colors (green gets creature-based, black gets resource-for-cards, and red gets reverse looting). White has minor counterspelling abilities, but they're reluctant to push that because counters are unfun or something, I don't know. From comments on MaRo's tumblr, Polymorphing might move to red someday as well.

[Barook]

It's also worth noting that blue has lost Tims to red and is now sharing draw more evenly across colors (green gets creature-based, black gets resource-for-cards, and red gets reverse looting). White has minor counterspelling abilities, but they're reluctant to push that because counters are unfun or something, I don't know. From comments on MaRo's tumblr, Polymorphing might move to red someday as well.
Main problem is that Red doesn't have much to offer and the good stuff has already been nerfed to uselessness.

What has Red to offer nowadays?

Burn, more burn, Pyroclasm-variants, overcosted, unplayable LD, crappy combat tricks, mediocre/bad mana accel and a slow shift of loot effects.

Black kinda suffers from the same problems - Rituals gone, LD nerfed, tutors nerfed hard. At least Black still gets decent discard spells from time to time and some of newer creature kill cards are decent as well.

Rakdos could be an interesting color combination if they focused on the strenghts of the colors. Instead, they rely on crappy gimmicks.

[TsumiBand]

Blue might be giving up or sharing certain abilities, but they're all "fixed". There will never be a Red Brainstorm or a White Mana Leak (to say nothing of a truly hard counter without condition), so of course they will never stand out as being comparable. It's when R&D screws up and does things like making Snapcaster Mage Blue instead of Red, that's when the problem is expressed significantly enough that it's irksome. I don't know that Blink effects are on par with all that, except maybe wherein D&T is concerned.

Anyway, it's true that BR is too gimmicky. If they wanted to really sack up they'd print Hymn at BR or something like Grim Tutor or Sinkhole at RBB. But even that is more of the same and especially adding another 'anything' tutor to Eternal formats, even with the double mana cost and life loss, is probably a mistake.

However power creep is a thing, and Maverick is a deck, so maybe the Izzet junk is just scratching the surface. Can't help but be little-kid excited for the new block.

[(nameless one)]

I don't usually play B/R combinations but it would be cool to see a Rakdos Charm that mixes Sinkhole that only targets non-basic, an instant until end of turn Chains of Mephistopheles and Gamble

[Guy I Don't Know]

Izzet charm being blue is huge, having removal that can be pitched to FOW is awesome. Fire//Ice has a similar effect and is being played, I could definitely see this being played as well. I don't think this card will ever be insane, although now with izzet charm and faithless looting there may be enough cards to fill the graveyard for goblin welder--I think show and tell its just better.

[rufus]

I don't usually play B/R combinations but it would be cool to see a Rakdos Charm that mixes Sinkhole that only targets non-basic, an instant until end of turn Chains of Mephistopheles and Gamble

I doubt WotC will ever print 2 cc land destruction again. (And if it does, I expect it will be blue.)

[menace13]

EDIT: Before someone mentions card filtering as a blue ability - remember that Red got Wheel of Fortune (discard, then draw) before Blue got Merfolk Looter. In reality, it's been bled to blue, and only now returning (slowly...)

Contract From Below.
Demonic Tutor. The best draw a card, ever.
Recall.
Twister.
Time Walk. Kind of.
Braingeyser.

I mean, come on. When were you ever in doubt of blue doing it all?

Lifegain?
Yeah, how about Lifetap
They put the word LIFE in there for you.

Direct damage??
Pirate Ship.
Psionic Blast.
Check.

Enchanting Enchantments?!! WTF
Obv.
Feedback
Power Leak


I would argue that other colors got their swag from blue.

Edit: Yes, Discard then Draw should be red, but that was all Irrel after Enchant Enchantments.

[Malchar]

I doubt WotC will ever print 2 cc land destruction again. (And if it does, I expect it will be blue.)

spreading seas
aquitect's will
sea's claim

Seems like a reasonable ability for Simic.

As for the Rakdos charm, we could see something like pyroclasm, mind rot, ???. Standard will be sorely missing a pyroclasm at cmc 2 after whipflare rotates.

It's interesting to note that black has card draw and discarding as separate abilities, and red has both combined into the rummaging goblin effect. Aside from the charm, we could see something like probe:

Rakdos Probe :1::b::r:
Sorcery
Each player discards 2 cards, then you draw 2 cards.

[bruizar]

I don't think any 2 cc spells will be on any of he chams.
The design seems tobe:

Careful study/looting=. 1cc
Shock = 1 cc
Pierce = 1 cc
Izzet charm=2 cc

Black green will probably get:
Discard (seize, iok, ostracism, duress)
1/1 token (with death touch?) or something
Giant growth or crop rotation or something

[HammerAndSickled]

I hope they'll all be 2 CMC. For symmetry reasons.

I could see something like:
Silence-Force Spike/Mana Tithe-Unsummon for the Azorius one.

[bruizar]

I hope they'll all be 2 CMC. For symmetry reasons.

I could see something like:
Silence-Force Spike/Mana Tithe-Unsummon for the Azorius one.

That would be a very good card, though I'm not sure if they'd put rares in it. Orim's Chant and Silence are both rare, and it would make Abeyance a pretty crappy card by comparison. We already have Saving Grasp, so the unsummon seems likely. Mana Tithe/Force Spike seems like a natural fit as well. Really, anything except for gain 3 life is acceptable to me in the W slots :D

[catmint]

I think the charm will see play. I would try it instead of my 1of Fire-Ice in RUG, but it would obviously be better in a deck that does not complain about playing 4-5 "expensive" 2 mana spell. Some Terminus decks already splash red. If they do that a bit more serious this card could provide flexible utility...especially getting rid of "dead" cards/miracles. That deck also has no problem keeping 2 mana up. Could work as a 2-3of...

[HammerAndSickled]

Another interesting revelation is that it lets the Shardless Agent-Ancestral Vision engine deck that Brian DeMars was championing run real counterspells in addition to 4 FoW.

[xfxf]

So much utility in one card makes it very appealing for RUG (I am talking about the Izzet charm here). More instant removal which can be pitched to FoW. End of turn, grow my Nimble Mongoose. Keep it as Spell Pierce, opponent lays a ton of lands, then you say fuck it and use it as faithless looting which is a better effect than cycling. So in theory it looks great. But the thing is RUG runs and queues 1cc spells so well that a 2cc spell can be such a deal breaker.. I mean there are so many times when you just Brainstorm in response and cast a Spell Pierce afterwards. Or Chain Lightning in your turn (or cast a creature or a ponder or whatever) keeping 1 mana up to bluff a Pierce or Stifle. Or keep 1 mana up for Brainstorm. There are so many ways to sequence your plays with 2 lands and a bunch of 1 mana spells. Having a 2cc spell feels like throwing a wrench in those plans and restricting your sequencing. I don't know, I tried it a little last night but felt uncomfortable with it even though it proved very useful in a couple occasions.

[rufus]

So much utility in one card makes it very appealing for RUG (I am talking about the Izzet charm here)...

It seems worse than Brainstorm+1 cc instant, but that's not exactly surprising.

Somewhat OT: Is overload just going to be kicker with a different name?

[Kich867]

It seems worse than Brainstorm+1 cc instant, but that's not exactly surprising.

Somewhat OT: Is overload just going to be kicker with a different name?

Overload feels like it will actually be more specific than kickers. For one, afaik kickers couldn't alter casting costs in that manner, secondly it changes the wording of the card, not so much "enters the battlefield with a counter on it"

[(nameless one)]

Overload feels like it will actually be more specific than kickers. For one, afaik kickers couldn't alter casting costs in that manner, secondly it changes the wording of the card, not so much "enters the battlefield with a counter on it"

There's also a possibility that it could cost less (unlike Kicker that could only bring the cost up)

For example:

Montreal Riot Lootings :2::r:

Sorcery

Target player discards three cards then draws three cards.

Overload :r: (Change target to each)

[Koby]

Overload feels like it will actually be more specific than kickers. For one, afaik kickers couldn't alter casting costs in that manner, secondly it changes the wording of the card, not so much "enters the battlefield with a counter on it"

It's important to note that Overload is templated so that it doesn't affect the casting cost. It is an alternate way of playing the spell that changes it slightly. The example given is:
X:r: Deal X damage to target creature.
Overload XX:r::r: Deal X to each creature. --> CMC is still X + 1

[rufus]

Looking at Street Spasm again, I didn't notice that overload is always going to be target->each. That seems like it severely limits what overload will do. I wonder if they'll put it on a planeswalker or other permanent as an ability upgrade.

[Humphrey]

Not exactly RtR, but interesting. New BS Artwork

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134796&d=1346282396

[Shawon]

zzzzzz. Same boring design of sparks coming out of person's head = same bored reaction

The art on the Legacy Champs version is way better, and it's a visual play on the word 'brainstorm.'

[bruizar]

agree with shawon. One of the reasons why i disgust non-lorwyn ponders. 5 colored balls over heads = boringgggg. Game is almost 20 years old and we still get this piece of crap art.

EDIT: I think a lot of it has to do with art direction and not with the actual artist. Wotc commissions these things and it seems like they don't really make much of an effort guiding their artists into creating unique designs/compositions.

[danyul]

Dayum! You guys are jaded or something because that art is rocking my face right now. I can't handle it. I need to throw money at somebody as soon as possible for those. They are from the izzet vs golgari duel deck right?

[Humphrey]

Yes. I actually like this artwork. Would be awesome in foil...

[Shawon]

Dayum! You guys are jaded or something because that art is rocking my face right now. I can't handle it. I need to throw money at somebody as soon as possible for those. They are from the izzet vs golgari duel deck right?

Unimpressed is the correct word, not jaded. It's the same unoriginal concept with a different art.

Unlike this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/Taanrin/da922_brainstorm.jpg

[danyul]

I've seen the Legacy Champs Brainstorm but the "interpretation" is a bit heavy handed for me. I don't mean to derail the thread into some amateur art critique corner. Clearly, one will be on an actual card and the other will not.

But look at this

http://i43.tower.com/images/mm117205637/leaves-grass-original-1855-edition-walt-whitman-paperback-cover-art.jpg

vs

http://www.finebooksmagazine.com/issue/200905/graphics/texas7.jpg

One is like "LEAVES OF GRASS, A DOYYY HERE ARE PICS OF LEAVES+GRASS" and the other is just a little more subtle.

I mean, this duel deck one has a dude, in thought, with an electrical storm around his head. It's clearly some kind of thought storm. The Legacy Champs version is like Storm+Brain=BRAINSTORM GET IT. I see the Brainstorminess about both of them. But one is in your face about it's own cleverness while the other is more subtle and nuanced. IMO.

[Barook]

Mercadian Masks Brainstorm is still my favorite. Simple, yet effective.

@Shawon: Problem with that art is that it's too abstract and looks more like a burn spell than a cantrip. Imho, Deathmark does a better at catching an abstract concept.

Edit: To actually contribute something to the RtR discussion - looks like shocklands are coming back with new art.

[Lord Seth]

agree with shawon. One of the reasons why i disgust non-lorwyn ponders. 5 colored balls over heads = boringgggg.Three.

While the new Ponder is kinda abstract, I like it more than the Lorwyn art. The new art at least shows how it's someone grabbing one of three things (which fits with the card), whereas the Lorwyn art is...some random Merfolk. Doesn't even look like it's pondering.

I guess Ponder is an abstract enough card that it's hard to really picture in art, but I really have no idea what the Merfolk art has to do with it.

I did like Mercadian Masques Brainstorm.

[danyul]

@Lord Seth

I believe bruizar is saying he *likes* Lorwyn Ponders over the others. Your "Three" is misplaced.

Also, is it safe to assume that reprinting the rav duals will make the originals get a bit cheaper?

[Koby]

@Lord Seth

I believe bruizar is saying he *likes* Lorwyn Ponders over the others. Your "Three" is misplaced.

Also, is it safe to assume that reprinting the rav duals will make the originals get a bit cheaper?

It's a safe assumption. Having active circulation from Standard and a new print run will relieve the impacted supply. It would certainly lower the price for the long run. There might be initial demand that outstrips supply once the set is released. However, that typically doesn't last longer than 1-2 months.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The price would probably spike because no one plays Modern, but everyone would want them for Standard.

[bruizar]

Three.

While the new Ponder is kinda abstract, I like it more than the Lorwyn art. The new art at least shows how it's someone grabbing one of three things (which fits with the card), whereas the Lorwyn art is...some random Merfolk. Doesn't even look like it's pondering.

I guess Ponder is an abstract enough card that it's hard to really picture in art, but I really have no idea what the Merfolk art has to do with it.

I did like Mercadian Masques Brainstorm.

I believe Lorwyn's ponder is a take on the saying "silent waters have deep grounds".

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ld/ld32_ponderSplash.jpg

The composition is really great, looking from underneath the waterline up towards the sky. The hand next to the mind of the merfolk , arching towards the right (our left) eye, make it feel liks she is trying to concentrate / has visions of the future, which is what the card does. For me though, not seeing the random colored orbs, the interesting composition / perspective sells the lorwyn ponder. Also, I like the bright colors.


http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/mm/mm51_ponder.jpg
To me, this is just, 3 cards pick one. meh.
Might as well have been:
http://www.lagodigarda.nl/content_images/t_1063923221_cupgame.jpg

Also, hate the space theme..

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's "Still waters run deep." Also I have no idea how a bunch of random clumps of white shit floating around in the water is supposed to convey deep thought.

[bruizar]

@iba
clouded thoughts, remove clouds by pondering about the future. Dude in back seems clouded, girl in front looks like she's seeing the future / cast away the clouds with her left hand / can see through the clouds.

[Aggro_zombies]

@iba
clouded thoughts, remove clouds by pondering about the future. Dude in back seems clouded, girl in front looks like she's seeing the future / cast away the clouds with her left hand / can see through the clouds.
I dunno, the fishnipples Ponder doesn't really do it for me. It's like she's yelling, "Hello, my clouds are up here buddy" or something, not like she's actually thinking or anything.

[Lord Seth]

@Lord Seth

I believe bruizar is saying he *likes* Lorwyn Ponders over the others.I know, that's what I was responding to.
Your "Three" is misplaced.I was correcting the claim that there were five colored balls. Not sure how it was misplaced, unless you mean I could've made it more clear what I was referring to.


Also, is it safe to assume that reprinting the rav duals will make the originals get a bit cheaper?Uncertain. I'm not sure if this sort of thing has been done before, a reprint of a card that was worth a reasonable amount of money but only reprinted years and years after it was originally printed.

The closest thing I can think of is Reflecting Pool, which was printed in Tempest and then later in Shadowmoor. This had the effect of quadrupling the price of the originals during its tenure in Standard.
I dunno, the fishnipples Ponder doesn't really do it for me. It's like she's yelling, "Hello, my clouds are up here buddy" or something, not like she's actually thinking or anything.Lorwyn's Ponder looks more to me like they had an illustration ready for a Merfolk they never printed and hastily put it onto Ponder. You could put it onto most Merfolk cards and never know the difference. It'd make more sense on, say, Silvergill Adept than on Ponder. The attempts to try to connect it to the card Ponder seem awfully desperate to me.

New Ponder better demonstrates (abstractly) what the card does, and the only other card I can think of that the illustration would really work for is Three Wishes.

[Final Fortune]

To me, this is just, 3 cards pick one. meh.
Might as well have been:
http://www.lagodigarda.nl/content_images/t_1063923221_cupgame.jpg

Also, hate the space theme..

I literally spit out my drink onto the screen when I saw the last .jpg, kudos sir.

[Barook]

Might as well have been:
http://www.lagodigarda.nl/content_images/t_1063923221_cupgame.jpg
Sounds like an awesome card alter idea.

[menace13]

The price would probably spike because no one plays Modern, but everyone would want them for Standard.

Everyone is going to NEED them for Standard.

Standard gets fetch-able Duals again combined with the M13 duals should make for lots of 3 color decks.

[Malchar]

It's "Still waters run deep." Also I have no idea how a bunch of random clumps of white shit floating around in the water is supposed to convey deep thought.

Well, Merfolk have to go to the bathroom somewhere.

[catmint]

@iba
clouded thoughts, remove clouds by pondering about the future. Dude in back seems clouded, girl in front looks like she's seeing the future / cast away the clouds with her left hand / can see through the clouds.

Nice... you could also say that the white stuff are fish eggs, which the fish in the back is yanking on to get more fish. Might have been a good artwort for silvergill adept :laugh:

[danyul]

I know, that's what I was responding to.I was correcting the claim that there were five colored balls. Not sure how it was misplaced, unless you mean I could've made it more clear what I was referring to.

Uncertain. I'm not sure if this sort of thing has been done before, a reprint of a card that was worth a reasonable amount of money but only reprinted years and years after it was originally printed.

The closest thing I can think of is Reflecting Pool, which was printed in Tempest and then later in Shadowmoor. This had the effect of quadrupling the price of the originals during its tenure in Standard.Lorwyn's Ponder looks more to me like they had an illustration ready for a Merfolk they never printed and hastily put it onto Ponder. You could put it onto most Merfolk cards and never know the difference. It'd make more sense on, say, Silvergill Adept than on Ponder. The attempts to try to connect it to the card Ponder seem awfully desperate to me.

New Ponder better demonstrates (abstractly) what the card does, and the only other card I can think of that the illustration would really work for is Three Wishes.


DUUUUUUDDDEEE. I just got you. When you said "Three", I thought you meant it the way people say "seconded" when they are agreeing with somebody. So I thought you were agreeing with bruizar. And then you go on to basically disagree with him.

I can't dun read them words good.

My baaaaaaaaaadddddd.

To add to the relevant topic, how do you think the new art of the shock duals will affect prices? Are the prices purely dependant on supply/demand and the insatiable hunger that Standard players have for chase rares? What if they got mufuggin John Avon to do all the RTR duals?

I only ask because I know somebody who sold a buttload of Rav duals expecting their prices to drop. I actually told him that wasn't a bad idea. If I was to learn that the prices would actually shoot up then, well, I'd feel like a chump for giving chump advice.

[lordofthepit]

To add to the relevant topic, how do you think the new art of the shock duals will affect prices? Are the prices purely dependant on supply/demand and the insatiable hunger that Standard players have for chase rares? What if they got mufuggin John Avon to do all the RTR duals?

I only ask because I know somebody who sold a buttload of Rav duals expecting their prices to drop. I actually told him that wasn't a bad idea. If I was to learn that the prices would actually shoot up then, well, I'd feel like a chump for giving chump advice.

I expect it to shoot up during the preorder period, then stabilize at roughly the current prices when they become Standard legal. The most popular combinations may possible go higher in price, but overall, I think it will be "break even".

However, they will slowly go down in price, and when they are about to rotate from Standard, I see them dropping significantly, well past their current price point. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of them go for less than $5.

[bruizar]

The only ones worth keeping are foil ravnica versions imo.

[Valtrix]

The only ones worth keeping are foil ravnica versions imo.

But the new ones will be foil Ravnica too!

[bruizar]

touche :D the original ravnica foil duals, especially dissension.

[Lord Seth]

I only ask because I know somebody who sold a buttload of Rav duals expecting their prices to drop. I actually told him that wasn't a bad idea. If I was to learn that the prices would actually shoot up then, well, I'd feel like a chump for giving chump advice.That was probably a mistake. As I noted before, the price of the original Reflecting Pool increased dramatically (quadrupling!) when it was reprinted in Shadowmoor. Now obviously there are some differences between that and the shocklands so things may work out differently, but Reflecting Pool is the closest thing I can think of to a return of the shocklands (reasonably valuable card that was out of print for a long time and then returned to Standard). It might lower later on, but early on prices are probably going to go up.

Of course, we'll see once they're reprinted...if they're reprinted.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

One thing people should keep in mind is that the Ravnica duals were in high demand in a Standard where

1) The other good cycle of color fixers, the painlands, had counter-synergy with them.

2) The preceding block had little particular incentive to go multicolor on its own.

Neither of these conditions is currently true; Innistrad has a lot of gold-feeding cards, from the "gold" flashback cards to dual color utility land cycle (Wolf Run, Gavony Township, Lighthouse etc.,) and the Sunpetal Grove/Woodland Cemetery cycle have fantastic synergy with the shocklands.

I expect prices to increase significantly.

[KZhang]

my guess is the price will drop.

Compare to the duels from Scars.

at its peak, Seachrome (most widely played scars land) stood around $15, darkslick shores was around there as well.

i would expect the more popular rav lands to settle around that price as well. (hallowed fountain and steam vents)

i would also expect more Rav boxes to be opened than scars.

Unless alot of players come back from their hiatus, i would expect shockland prices settle slightly lower than they are now.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Prices also depend on what else is in Return to Ravnica and Gatecrash (I'm expecting a 5/5 split between both the "big" sets). If there are a couple chase Mythics, then lots of the value is going to coalesce in those, not in the the prices of the rares, where the shocklands will presumably be. Look at the effect Jace, The Walletsculptor had on Worldwake rares, especially the man-lands. Some saw a ton of use, but because everyone was playing the Jace lottery, a lot more of everything else was opened, driving down prices.

So if you want really cheap shocklands, Jace 4.0 or Niv 2: Electric Boogaloo being bonkers could be a blessing in disguise.

[Barook]

Prices also depend on what else is in Return to Ravnica and Gatecrash (I'm expecting a 5/5 split between both the "big" sets). If there are a couple chase Mythics, then lots of the value is going to coalesce in those, not in the the prices of the rares, where the shocklands will presumably be. Look at the effect Jace, The Walletsculptor had on Worldwake rares, especially the man-lands. Some saw a ton of use, but because everyone was playing the Jace lottery, a lot more of everything else was opened, driving down prices.

So if you want really cheap shocklands, Jace 4.0 or Niv 2: Electric Boogaloo being bonkers could be a blessing in disguise.
Most of the other rares in WW were mediocre at best (SFM being an obvious exception).

Considering Ken Nagle is in charge of RtR, I do expect some very powerful or downright broken cards.

Otherwise, I'm agreeing with lordofthepit about the shockland prices.

[danyul]

There are some perfectly reasonable arguments for and against price jumps in the Rav Duals. I guess I'll just wait and see once the cards are released. Until then I have plenty of other regrets to keep me occupied. Also, I apologize for basically asking the same Rav Dual question twice. I didn't want to turn this thread into some pricing thread.

Buuuuuut Pax is this weekend and we are supposed to see a bunch of new reveals over the next few days.

For example:

On today's card of the day
Grim Roustabout
1B
Creature- Skeleton Warrior (C)
Unleash (You may have this creature enter the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. It can't block as long as it has a +1/+1 counter on it.)
1B: Regenerate Grim Rousabout.
1/1

Nothing super crazy going on there. I believe this is a Rakdos card. And just a common at that. I dunno how this mechanic will scale into rare and mythic rare territory. It will be interesting to see what Wotc comes up with.

Also those new art Brainstorms are available for preorder on StarCity for 2 bucks a pop. 1.50 on TrollandToad.

[Koby]

Eww what a flop. Unleash is just about worse than Bloodthirst, and that hasn't seen play whatsoever. Something tells me that all the mechanics are strictly designed for Limited play only, with Constructed as an after-thought. Much like the last 3 years. (Delver need not apply)

[Gheizen64]

There are some perfectly reasonable arguments for and against price jumps in the Rav Duals. I guess I'll just wait and see once the cards are released. Until then I have plenty of other regrets to keep me occupied. Also, I apologize for basically asking the same Rav Dual question twice. I didn't want to turn this thread into some pricing thread.

Buuuuuut Pax is this weekend and we are supposed to see a bunch of new reveals over the next few days.

For example:

On today's card of the day
Grim Roustabout
1B
Creature- Skeleton Warrior (C)
Unleash (You may have this creature enter the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. It can't block as long as it has a +1/+1 counter on it.)
1B: Regenerate Grim Rousabout.
1/1

Nothing super crazy going on there. I believe this is a Rakdos card. And just a common at that. I dunno how this mechanic will scale into rare and mythic rare territory. It will be interesting to see what Wotc comes up with.

Also those new art Brainstorms are available for preorder on StarCity for 2 bucks a pop. 1.50 on TrollandToad.

This seems pretty narrow of a mechanic, but at least it involve some interesting decisions elements.

I'm waiting for

Grim Devil R
Creature Devil
Unleash
Whenever Grim Devil is dealt damage, it deal that much damage to all players
1/1

Something like this would give more implications to the choice of Unleash.

[danyul]

It might be a more interesting mechanic if Unleash had a number by it, ala Bloodthirst. At least then it could have some scalability to it. As it stands now, it seems you only get a single +1/+1 counter.

[Gheizen64]

It might be a more interesting mechanic if Unleash had a number by it, ala Bloodthirst. At least then it could have some scalability to it. As it stands now, it seems you only get a single +1/+1 counter.

Yes, i guess not being able to block isn't worth more than a +1/+1. They can make the choice more significant using other abilities, as i showed with my card example. If the designer are good, they'll make it work.

[Valtrix]

While the "cannot block" is part of the unleash keyword, keep in mind they can do more than just the keyword says by adding clauses on the card such as, "As long as X has (or doesn't have) a +1/+1 counter, X can do something." I expect that there will be some unleash cards like this, where having or not having a +1/+1 counter actually ends up giving more choices than a smaller guy that can defend or a bigger guy that can only attack.

[Aggro_zombies]

I imagine the mechanic is more interesting at a single +1/+1 counter. If you make the number of counters too high, then the correct choice will almost always be to make the bigger creature, except in situations where you're far behind. With the mechanic as-is, it's interesting in Limited because there's actually a real choice to be made about whether you want the blocker or if the +1/+1 counter will be useful enough.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There are some perfectly reasonable arguments for and against price jumps in the Rav Duals. I guess I'll just wait and see once the cards are released. Until then I have plenty of other regrets to keep me occupied. Also, I apologize for basically asking the same Rav Dual question twice. I didn't want to turn this thread into some pricing thread.

Buuuuuut Pax is this weekend and we are supposed to see a bunch of new reveals over the next few days.

For example:

On today's card of the day
Grim Roustabout
1B
Creature- Skeleton Warrior (C)
Unleash (You may have this creature enter the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. It can't block as long as it has a +1/+1 counter on it.)
1B: Regenerate Grim Rousabout.
1/1

Nothing super crazy going on there. I believe this is a Rakdos card. And just a common at that. I dunno how this mechanic will scale into rare and mythic rare territory. It will be interesting to see what Wotc comes up with.

Also those new art Brainstorms are available for preorder on StarCity for 2 bucks a pop. 1.50 on TrollandToad.

This is like exhibit A in why they should just stop trying to come up with new keyword mechanics for every set.

[rufus]

I imagine the mechanic is more interesting at a single +1/+1 counter. ...

Critters could also have abilities like Triskelion where the +1/+1 counter is used for something.


This is like exhibit A in why they should just stop trying to come up with new keyword mechanics for every set.
Still better than banding.

[Vacrix]

Unleash does look pretty shitty. However, it could have been good if they put a number on it... like Unleash 1 for the card that got spoiled vs. Unleash 4 on something else.

Also, that card would have actually been alright if it were costed at a single black instead of 1B.

It looks like a mechanic that wouldn't even be good in draft. Then again, perhaps they'll make it better with creatures that have extra abilities if they've been unleashed. ie.

(example card) B
Creature - Demon
Unleash
As long as ~ is Unleashed, whenever it deals combat damage to a player, that player discards a card at random.
1/1

(example card) G
Creature - Druid
Unleash
As long as ~ is Unleashed, whenever it deals combat damage to a player, you may search your library for a land and put that card into your hand.
1/1

(example card) U
Creature - Illusion
Flying, Unleash
As long as ~ is Unleashed, whenever it deals combat damage to a player, you may Scry 1.

[TorpidNinja]

Unleash does look pretty shitty. However, it could have been good if they put a number on it... like Unleash 1 for the card that got spoiled vs. Unleash 4 on something else.

Also, that card would have actually been alright if it were costed at a single black instead of 1B.

It looks like a mechanic that wouldn't even be good in draft. Then again, perhaps they'll make it better with creatures that have extra abilities if they've been unleashed. ie.

(example card) B
Creature - Demon
Unleash
As long as ~ is Unleashed, whenever it deals combat damage to a player, that player discards a card at random.
1/1

(example card) G
Creature - Druid
Unleash
As long as ~ is Unleashed, whenever it deals combat damage to a player, you may search your library for a land and put that card into your hand.
1/1

(example card) U
Creature - Illusion
Flying, Unleash
As long as ~ is Unleashed, whenever it deals combat damage to a player, you may Scry 1.

Since it's the Rakdos mechanic, it will likely only occur on B/R creatures. Also, were the cards you're suggesting all 1-drops or is that just an indicator of their color-identity?

[danyul]

Well, keep in mind that it's also on a Rakdos card so you shouldn't have to see too much of it outside of B and R sealed picks.

edit - posted at the same time as torpidninja

[Aggro_zombies]

Unleash does look pretty shitty. However, it could have been good if they put a number on it... like Unleash 1 for the card that got spoiled vs. Unleash 4 on something else.

Also, that card would have actually been alright if it were costed at a single black instead of 1B.
Something like Unleash 4 is going to have problems. If it's costed appropriately for the bigger end of the card, the non-unleashed end will seem shitty; if it's costed appropriately for the non-unleashed end, the correct decision 90% of the time will be to unleash it, which isn't interesting at all. I understand that larger numbers of counters on Unleash would make the cards Constructed-playable, but as it is I feel like they can already do that with the right combination of secondary abilities:

Unleash + Intimidate / Flying = formidable offensive creature
Unleash + Haste = suicidal fast attacker
Unleash + "Remove a counter" = attacker that can activate an ability and then chump when outclassed

Too many cheap Unleash creatures in the environment would make for a pretty brutal fast aggro deck if the Unleash numbers start to get too large. As it stands, they can make fine Constructed cards if they did something like, say a red one-drop 1/1 with Unleash and haste.

The current wording makes the cards actually interesting for Limited rather than stupidly overpowered. There's an actual decision to be made about whether a single counter is good enough to justify limiting your blockers.

[Barook]

While Unleash by itself is a pretty shitty mechanic, we'll have to wait and see how the actual cards turn out. Bonus effects with +1/+1 counters are basically a must. E.g. something basic:

Rakdos Goblin :r:
Creature - Goblin
Unleash
As long as Rakdos Goblin has a +1/+1 counter on it, Rakdos Goblin has haste.
1/1

[TorpidNinja]

While Unleash by itself is a pretty shitty mechanic, we'll have to wait and see how the actual cards turn out. Bonus effects with +1/+1 counters are basically a must. E.g. something basic:

Rakdos Goblin :r:
Creature - Goblin
Unleash
As long as Rakdos Goblin has a +1/+1 counter on it, Rakdos Goblin has haste.
1/1

Right, but this speaks to Aggro_zombies point: there's no tension in the creature. Who doesn't want a Goblin Guide without a drawback? On the other hand, if it only had haste without the counter, then the card's more interesting.

[Gheizen64]

Right, but this speaks to Aggro_zombies point: there's no tension in the creature. Who doesn't want a Goblin Guide without a drawback? On the other hand, if it only had haste without the counter, then the card's more interesting.

I agree. For aggressive, cheap cards, unleashing will probably always be the right choice unless with another drawback on top of the can't block. On high-end creature, keeping the ability to block is probably more important. I see unleash at its best on 2 and 3 cmc creature. Something like:

Ominous Presence BB
Creature - Spirit
Deathtouch
Unleash
2/2

Deathtouch (especially with first strike) feel like the best mechanic to go with Unleash. If you don't Unleash, the card can work as removal, else it work only as an attacker that will trade on block.

[Snap_Keep]

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/402825_782929177682_1228659785_n.jpg

[Awaclus]

<huge image>
It's about time they started printing Walkers with reasonable ultimatums and powerful second abilities. Also, I really want to resolve this before my opponent plays his third land.

A very interesting and powerful card, but it requires a heavy commitment to blue and 4 mana. I'm not sure if this will be playable in Legacy, probably not, but at least it's worth trying in some decks.

[Shawon]

I call fake. Too wordy and that art is from the Ith in Time Spiral block.

[Gheizen64]

That card feel like the impersonification of evil and annoying effects. Tap and selected card discard + counter everything zzz

[menace13]

That thing is going to be great in Modern and Standard. As long as Terminus is around it should see a lot of play together.

[danyul]

I hope it's real.

Just so I can RP with it and Maze of Ith.

[Shawon]

I am gullible as hell, and even I didn't fall for this shit.

The card's abilities have no characteristic similarity to Ith or his signature land, Maze of Ith. Hmm, that art looks familiar...

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=114903&type=card

Also, the +1 ability is too powerful if you're targeting lands. That means your opponent has to pay 2 to untap their frozen land. Or else... you just freeze another of their lands. Yay, that sounds exactly like what Standard needs right now (and I hate that stupid format).

[Barook]

It's fake.

There are two walkers in RtR - yet another Jace (seriously, he's becoming Magic's Megaman) and a new, female one.

[Koby]

It's fake.

There are two walkers in RtR - yet another Jace (seriously, he's becoming Magic's Megaman) and a new, female one.

The new character is also rumored to be a blue planeswalker (Kiora) possibly Simic aligned.

[danyul]

There is some facebook app/game thingy that the MTG Salvation people have been poking around on. It lets you unlock art as you get points or something. Anyway some dude uploaded all the art unlocked so far. This set is gonna be pretty.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6066501/facebookart.html

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=443455&page=14

[Malchar]

Unleash could be an interesting combat trick if they have some way to move +1/+1 counters around.

I'm kind of surprised that this is Rakdos though, because I thought they said that the new abilities would work well with the old abilities, unless I'm missing something, I don't see how this works with hellbent at all.

[Aggro_zombies]

Unleash could be an interesting combat trick if they have some way to move +1/+1 counters around.

I'm kind of surprised that this is Rakdos though, because I thought they said that the new abilities would work well with the old abilities, unless I'm missing something, I don't see how this works with hellbent at all.
MaRo said that the new guild incarnations would work with the old ones, not necessarily the abilities. Overload and Replicate don't work very well together either.

[xfxf]

The art is getting increasingly prettier but I would still want to see more characteristic art like the ones from Phil Foglio, Kev Walker and Ron Spencer. The new art is mostly very baroque.

[Barook]

Unleash could be an interesting combat trick if they have some way to move +1/+1 counters around.

I'm kind of surprised that this is Rakdos though, because I thought they said that the new abilities would work well with the old abilities, unless I'm missing something, I don't see how this works with hellbent at all.
We got that part wrong (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/30574937552/if-the-new-mechanics-were-supposed-to-have-some-synergy).

They're probably also looking for inter-guild synergy, like Scavenge on an Unleash guy.

Edit:
The art is getting increasingly prettier but I would still want to see more characteristic art like the ones from Phil Foglio, Kev Walker and Ron Spencer. The new art is mostly very baroque.

Phil Foglio simply doesn't fit Magic's style anymore.

Kev Walker still does art for Magic, unless I missed something. He still had stuff in New Phyrexia.

I miss Ron Spencer, though. I loved his art.

[TsumiBand]

How does Unleash *not* follow the same theme as Hellbent? There's a clear theme of 'going all-in without holding back' and benefitting from it. Having said that, it's completely dumb unless it's got the possibility of being Unleash X, something like...

1B
Derpy Zombie

Creature - Zombie

Unleash 2

If -this- is Unleashed, you lose 1 life whenever it attacks.
2/2

I'd play that shit.

[troopatroop]

Um, who wouldn't? It'd have to be 2dmg, 1 isn't enough of a drawback.

[morgan_coke]

Does Izzet Charm make anyone else think about the possible resurrection of Madness? Faithless Looting, Careful Study, and Izzet Charm is a lot of solid draw/discard effects to handle filtering and selection.

I mean, if you go Grixis you could run something like a creature suite of Delver/Bloodghast/Gravecrawler/Oona's Prowler plus counters and burn, or you could go RUG and run Delver/Goyf/Rootwalla/Vengevine plus counters and burn. Or maybe just go all out and do some 4color mix?

Either way, having access to 12 loot spells seems like a pretty strong start to possibly reinvigorating madness as a viable archetype in Legacy.

[Nihil Credo]

Nobody blocks in Constructed*, so there would be little benefit in allowing for higher Unleash values, everybody would practically always choose the unleashed option. You could make a few cards with ad-hoc drawbacks against attacking, but it's not worth it to make a mechanic scale when 75% of the design space (and 95% of the common design space) is in X=1.


* Rhetorical exaggeration

[Brushwagg]

The art I 've seen for the set looks awesome.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Shocklands confirmed back.

Flying Cursecatcher for hybrid mana (U/W) cost? Hello power creep, how are you?

https://twitter.com/mtgcolorpie/status/242084300898582528/photo/1

Still isn't Legacy playable, because it's not a 'Folk...but the power creep is pretty obnoxious, especially given that both white and blue can play it equally well.

Also insane scaling Blightning....at Mythic. Gonna be an expensive one.

http://twitter.com/mtgcolorpie/status/242083673904660482/photo/1

Nothing Legacy playable yet.

[morgan_coke]

Scaling Blightning is likely junk. Think about how much play mind shatter receives. Only really worth it if you can nail a 'walker while you're at it, but that's going to cost 5-6 mana, which is higher end even for std.

EDIT: new jace is spoiled

2UU

+1: enemy critters -1/-0 when they attack u
-2: 3 card Fact or Fiction
-8: tutor one card from everyones library, can cast for free

4

that -2 is pretty dang good, rest of the abilities are meh.

[ivanpei]

TMS is better than the new Jace. But this RTR Jace is still very playable in standard and modern. Nothing exciting for legacy yet though.

[Aggro_zombies]

TMS is better than the new Jace. But this RTR Jace is still very playable in standard and modern. Nothing exciting for legacy yet though.
The -2 is pretty much the only good part of the card. So you pay four for what might be a two-turn, sorcery-speed FoF, assuming your opponent doesn't attack Jace to death in the interim? Seems...not that hot. I mean, the +1 is more or less complete garbage and the ultimate is not very good either, although it is nice to see that they're moving away from the "oops, I win" ultimate model to something a little less egregiously powerful.

[whienot]

New Jace + Humility will be worth exploring. Sadly Jace 4.0 isn't really strong enough to stand on its own.

[ivanpei]

This Jace is still one of the better walkers in standard. Better than Tamiyo or Emo Jace at least. I can see the other blue walkers in standard tanking and Jace 4.0 skyrocketing in price. The -2 is pretty powerful. The +1 is meh but it's so-so. The usual lines of play for this Jace is -2, +1, -2, +1, +1, -2 etc. Having to +1 twice to mini FOF really sucks. They should have made it +2 for it to be mildly interesting.

[Lt. Quattro]

I like that new bird, I wonder if I can just replace mother of runes with it, weakening my creature based match up, and improving combo. I don't need it to win me the game, I need it to let me live long enough to get a hate bear into play.

[Aggro_zombies]

The bird seems like a fine addition in a deck like Maverick. Combine it with Thalia, Teeg, and Canonist for a pretty powerful anti-combo lineup.

[ivanpei]

Flying cursecatcher seems good. Not sure if it's good enough for Mav though. I'm excited about dreadbore. It's fantastic for the control and aggro matchup. It's one of the few spells that can kill a walker. Why rare though, blatant money grab by wizard. People are gonna need 4 of these. Luckily. The colors will restrict its play somewhat.

[Valtrix]

Having a 1 cost bird that flies and has a very relevant ability seems very powerful when combined with the Stoneforge Mystic -> Jitte plan.

[ivanpei]

Having a 1 cost bird that flies and has a very relevant ability seems very powerful when combined with the Stoneforge Mystic -> Jitte plan.

It's worth testing but IMO, Mav has enough 1 drops. Also the ability is not as devastating ad say thalia or mother of runes. It doesn't shut down combo, just slows abit. It can't stop terminus unlikely teeq. The flying makes it very interesting though.

[Barook]

Grisly Salvage looks like a great card for card selection - and it's an instant!

And the Selesnya Charm seems very, very playable.

[Antonius]

every loam deck just got a major gift.

[Amon Amarth]

I like the Cursecatcher bird. Pretty sweet.

[Aggro_zombies]

It's worth testing but IMO, Mav has enough 1 drops. Also the ability is not as devastating ad say thalia or mother of runes. It doesn't shut down combo, just slows abit. It can't stop terminus unlikely teeq. The flying makes it very interesting though.
You're playing the card in conjunction with Teeg and Thalia, which is what makes it interesting. These cards as a group can slow down combo a lot, and the bird is infinitely better than Mom in games two and three.

[Antonius]

You're playing the card in conjunction with Teeg and Thalia, which is what makes it interesting. These cards as a group can slow down combo a lot, and the bird is infinitely better than Mom in games two and three.

i'm hoping that more Azorious stuff is playable. UW Death and Taxes, here we go!

[Valtrix]

It's worth testing but IMO, Mav has enough 1 drops. Also the ability is not as devastating ad say thalia or mother of runes. It doesn't shut down combo, just slows abit. It can't stop terminus unlikely teeq. The flying makes it very interesting though.

I never said it as just for Maverick. I was thinking more for stoneblade decks. First, it's blue or white, making it super easy to play on any land and pitchable to force of will. This is particularly relevant if a 1/1 bird is not useful to you. Second, it only costs one for a very relevant ability. While people can play around it, it can definitely have a lot of value, especially on the play. Third, the flying body matters quite a bit. This guys trades with Vendilion Clique and carries equipment like a boss. While such decks might have better cards, there are a lot of interesting aspects to the card that probably warrant at least testing it.

[bruizar]

My picks so far:

Izzet Charm - Will find its place in eternal
Chromatic Lantern - edh staple, 5c-workshop/bazaar variants
Judge's Familiar - Good due to its castability, turn 1 impact and the fact that you can pitch it later. Evasion is also relevant. It kills Vendilion Cliques for example.

Nothing too exciting yet.

[menace13]

My picks so far:

Izzet Charm - Will find its place in eternal
Chromatic Lantern - edh staple, 5c-workshop/bazaar variants
Judge's Familiar - Good due to its castability, turn 1 impact and the fact that you can pitch it later. Evasion is also relevant. It kills Vendilion Cliques for example.

Nothing too exciting yet.

Chro Lantern is fuking amazing!

Edit: For EDH, Singleton, and Prismatic.

Edit, Edit: Might not be bad In Red/Blue, or Black Shops either

[lordofthepit]

Judge's Familiar will see a lot of play in many different decks. Random decks like Maverick, Death and Taxes, and Zoo now have a critical mass of disruption to not auto lose to combo decks, while decks like Stoneblade may decide to include it to have enough creatures that don't straight up suck.

Edit: Bant now has a critical mass of non-shitty blue cards.

[Illissius]

Would Keeper of the Nine Gales be any good if there were enough playable birds to go with it? In any case there's now one more.

[Barook]

Would Keeper of the Nine Gales be any good if there were enough playable birds to go with it? In any case there's now one more.
Tradewind Rider sees zero play right now, so I would doubt it, especially since there are only very few playable birds right now.

[Final Fortune]

Judge's Familiar is probably the strongest card I've seen out of the spoilers so far, it's an easy fit in any Stoneforge Mystic or Maverick based deck as your tempo generator/equipment carrier and gives Maverick a desperately needly disruption spell before Thalia can be resolved. I honestly can't wait to be able to just annoy the hell out of opponents with Judge's Familiar, Spellstutter Sprite and Vendilion Clique

Selesnaya Charm is arguably one of the best designed cards I've ever seen, between the +2/2, instant Knight and kill target 5+ power toughness creature you can basically use it to kill any creature reliably except for Delver of Secrets and Vendilion Clique in a combat trade. I could totally see it replacing Lightning Helix in Zoo for example.

Keeper of the Nine Gales.dec would be hilarious, between Judge's Familiar, that card advantage hawk and Mutavault it's pushing the barrier, plus you could name the deck Angry Birds lol.

[ivanpei]

I like what I see in the spoilers so far. Very balanced cards overall and mostly pretty playable in the right situations. Pretty psyched for this set! Does dreadbore fit immediately into any legacy deck right now? It's gonna be a chase rare and I'm contemplating if I get should get a set or not. Nobody really plays BR in legacy other than goblins, and goblins can't run Dreadbore effectively.

[Barook]

I like what I see in the spoilers so far. Very balanced cards overall and mostly pretty playable in the right situations. Pretty psyched for this set! Does dreadbore fit immediately into any legacy deck right now? It's gonna be a chase rare and I'm contemplating if I get should get a set or not. Nobody really plays BR in legacy other than goblins, and goblins can't run Dreadbore effectively.
If Dreadbore had been an instant, it would have been amazing.

As a sorcery, while not bad, it's kinda meh.

[bruizar]

If Dreadbore had been an instant, it would have been amazing.

As a sorcery, while not bad, it's kinda meh.

What I like about Dreadbore is that BR finally got something unique to that combination. Destroying planeswalkers up until now was solely reserved for combat and red elemental blast (because of jace..). While Engineered Explosives also takes out planeswalkers, ramping it to 4 is unrealistic for most decks. I'm happy to see that red, or actually red / black, the two weaker colors of the game right now, get something that helps build a unique identity. Now I'm not sure if destroying planeswalkers belongs more to red than black, or if this is neither (Rakdos), but I like what I'm seeing so far.

[Maëlig]

Keeper of the Nine Gales.dec would be hilarious, between Judge's Familiar, that card advantage hawk and Mutavault it's pushing the barrier, plus you could name the deck Angry Birds lol.

Something along those lines maybe?

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Mutavault / Wasteland

4 Judge's Familiar
4 Baleful Strix
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Aven Mimeomancer
3 Keeper of the Nine Gales

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will

Seems almost viable to me.

[Barook]

What I like about Dreadbore is that BR finally got something unique to that combination. Destroying planeswalkers up until now was solely reserved for combat and red elemental blast (because of jace..). While Engineered Explosives also takes out planeswalkers, ramping it to 4 is unrealistic for most decks. I'm happy to see that red, or actually red / black, the two weaker colors of the game right now, get something that helps build a unique identity. Now I'm not sure if destroying planeswalkers belongs more to red than black, or if this is neither (Rakdos), but I like what I'm seeing so far.
Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse can kill Planeswalkers as well.

It isn't that unique.

On a different topic:
Thoughts on Guttersnipe?

Guttersnipe :2::r:
Creature - Goblin Shaman
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, Guttersnipe deals 2 damage to each opponent.
2/2

Seems kinda interesting when you chain free/cheap spells. Or Curiosity for a hilarious engine.

[ivanpei]

Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse can kill Planeswalkers as well.

It isn't that unique.

On a different topic:
Thoughts on Guttersnipe?

Guttersnipe :2::r:
Creature - Goblin Shaman
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, Guttersnipe deals 2 damage to each opponent.
2/2

Seems kinda interesting when you chain free/cheap spells. Or Curiosity for a hilarious engine.

I smell plenty of combo potential here. It's like a permanent based tendrils. Combo brewers should take a stab at this. Possible to build a creature based storm deck? With Living wishes, Xantid Swarm, Guttersnipe and maybe bobs? Then pack it with rituals and past in flames?

[Fizzeler]

Something along those lines maybe?

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Mutavault / Wasteland

4 Judge's Familiar
4 Baleful Strix
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Aven Mimeomancer
3 Keeper of the Nine Gales

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will

Seems almost viable to me.
Is tribal Birds/Flyers a Legacy viable deck? I am starting to brew something based off the Budget flyer deck, also is Pride Of Clouds worth running in that deck?

Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse can kill Planeswalkers as well.

It isn't that unique.

On a different topic:
Thoughts on Guttersnipe?

Guttersnipe :2::r:
Creature - Goblin Shaman
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, Guttersnipe deals 2 damage to each opponent.
2/2

Seems kinda interesting when you chain free/cheap spells. Or Curiosity for a hilarious engine.

Yeah this guy seems very good, considering you can run 4 of them I can see combo potential as he seems like a better Burning Vengeance (and you can run them in conjunction with one another)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Grisly Salvage looks like a great card for card selection - and it's an instant!

And the Selesnya Charm seems very, very playable.

Agreed on both.

[TsumiBand]

Cursecatcher looks keen, reminds me of playing Spiketail Hatchling in Fish/r back in the day. Wonder if shaving 1 off the CMC makes it more playable. Would D&T care about that guy? It's like an active Port; they can play around it if they want but they'll have to contend with Ports/Wastes/whatever in the meanwhile.

The Charms look pretty good, although Azorious looks chaffy. Maybe if it tucked the attacking creature it'd be different, or instead of giving a bunch of lifelink it did something that matters a damn.

Dreadbore is dumb at rare, but whatever. Being able to just flat out target a planeswalker is nice.

Printing those taplands at common is pretty sick, guess we'll have to wait and see what that "Gate" nonsense is about though. Actual confirmation of the return of shocklands is badass. Maybe I can play Standard for a while, I've got some Stomping Grounds and Sacred Foundries around here somewhere.

[Illissius]

Something along those lines maybe?

Cavern of Souls? Seaside Haven? Cabal Therapy if you're already in black.

I also thought Squadron Hawk + Sawtooth Loon was an engine before I turned my brain on. :(

[Nihil Credo]

Maverick players: is Grove of the Guardian good enough for a 1-of?

[Malchar]

I smell plenty of combo potential here. It's like a permanent based tendrils. Combo brewers should take a stab at this. Possible to build a creature based storm deck? With Living wishes, Xantid Swarm, Guttersnipe and maybe bobs? Then pack it with rituals and past in flames?

It just seems like a much worse tendrils. Unlike tendrils, it can be countered or killed with any creature removal including lightning bolt. A creature-based storm deck doesn't really make sense because he only triggers from instants or sorceries. Tendrils triggers from artifacts as well, so you get rewarded for playing artifact mana, which helps you get to a lethal storm count much faster.

I don't think that this card is strong enough to support a deck that runs nothing but a bunch of instants and sorceries. Since it costs 3, I can't imagine that it would be good in burn. Since it doesn't trigger off of creatures or artifacts, I can't imagine that it would be better than tendrils. It will probably be a very annoying card in the early red-deck-wins decks in standard though.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work with goblin grenade either. You can't sacrifice it for a total of 7 damage.


Maverick players: is Grove of the Guardian good enough for a 1-of?

In my opinion, it seems like they finally made a manland that isn't quite good enough to play in eternal formats. If it's a one-of, then you presumably need a knight of the reliquary to find it. Knight is already a huge fatty, and this card doesn't offer any additional utility beyond that. I don't think it's worth it to spend 5 mana to active this, especially since it's conditional on the fact that you have 2 other creatures in play. It seems like the definition of win-more. Also, it's worse than a normal manland because it gets hit by sorcery speed removal and sweepers like humility.

[Aggro_zombies]

It just seems like a much worse tendrils. Unlike tendrils, it can be countered or killed with any creature removal including lightning bolt. A creature-based storm deck doesn't really make sense because he only triggers from instants or sorceries. Tendrils triggers from artifacts as well, so you get rewarded for playing artifact mana, which helps you get to a lethal storm count much faster.

I don't think that this card is strong enough to support a deck that runs nothing but a bunch of instants and sorceries. Since it costs 3, I can't imagine that it would be good in burn. Since it doesn't trigger off of creatures or artifacts, I can't imagine that it would be better than tendrils. It will probably be a very annoying card in the early red-deck-wins decks in standard though.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work with goblin grenade either. You can't sacrifice it for a total of 7 damage.
To be fair, though, the card looks pretty sweet in spell-based EDH decks since it damages each opponent. I'm pretty psyched to try it in my Niv-Mizzet deck.

[TsumiBand]

What possible 3-mana spell would Guttersnipe replace, though? If you're trying to combo off I'd assume you would not want multiples or would rather simply draw cards. If all you have to do is cast 9 spells and then resolve your Storm finisher, when is Guttersnipe better than like Remand? Not only that but you can't cast X spells to go find it and THEN try to cast X more spells, you need to draw it and play it prior to your attempt at shenanigans.

It seems like it's just trying to be another "aw shucks, when Red mages burn stuff they can do it better with this guy in play", like Kiln Fiend or that other 3-cmc guy that gets +x/+0 per red spell or whatever.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Printing those taplands at common is pretty sick, guess we'll have to wait and see what that "Gate" nonsense is about though.

So far it seems like a subtheme. They have a 1G Defender dork that searches for a Gate on coming into play and a black ogre that is pumped by having a Gate. I assume there will be a green spell to tutor for/ramp upon Gates, as well as a Gate-Fetch somewhere in the block.

[Shawon]

EDIT: Man, I'm starting to have a streak of mistaking combos. More RTFC is in order. Anyway, I love how this one's abilities are completely inverted from the original Firemind. The design is pretty elegant. Seeing some of these RtR spoilers is reminding why I loved Ravnica like many other people. The art and the card designs were just so flavorful and elegant.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135224&d=1346644944

[Aggro_zombies]

EDIT: Man, I'm starting to have a streak of mistaking combos. More RTFC is in order. Anyway, I love how this one's abilities are completely inverted from the original Firemind. The design is pretty elegant. Seeing some of these RtR spoilers is reminding why I loved Ravnica like many other people. The art and the card designs were just so flavorful and elegant.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135224&d=1346644944
I'm glad someone likes it, because I took one look at this, thought, "They fixed him!" and lost interest. Reversing the triggers makes him more fair, but he's so similar to his last version I can't help but be disappointed.

Are there any combos with this Niv? All I can think of is him, Mind Over Matter, and something that lets him tap to ping.

[Koby]

The thought of putting both Niv-mizzets into play together to create a space-time continuous rift makes me warm and fuzzy on the insides.

[lordofthepit]

The thought of putting both Niv-mizzets into play together to create a space-time continuous rift makes me warm and fuzzy on the insides.

I'd love to see this play out:

Player A: I cast my second Niv-Mizzet; after it resolves, activate ability, kill you?
Player B: In response, I sacrifice my Martyr of Sands and play a huge Alabaster Potion. You deck before I get pinged out?

[Offler]

Old Niv-Mizzet was great since he was able to start a two card combo. New Niv-mizzet can be used to burn all the mana you can produce. Different approach with same result, however - it needs other infinite mana combo running instead of participating.

Funny thing is that both can be used as generals in my red/blue EDH combo idea based on my current Teferi deck.

Also the new Niv-Mizzet reminds me one infamous Tier 1 general - Oona, Queen of Fae. Decent stand-alone power level without any combo potential of its own, but when there is a infinite mana combo it can use up all the mana ...

When I look at both of these cards I sense that "new" MtG has lost something since Ravnica. I dont believe that Niv Mizzed deserves change like this.

[TsumiBand]

Honestly it seems like the biggest reason to make a change like this would be to exemplify how batty Izzet actually is, and how Niv-Mizzet can so easily exist "beside himself" whereas with other Legendary characters, you generally see their card change significantly enough that the Legend rule doesn't apply anymore. Plus he "bad combo"s with himself. How many Legendary guys have such intentional synergy with their reprinted selves from later? I can't think of any that are that blatant, anyway.

[Tammit67]

Honestly it seems like the biggest reason to make a change like this would be to exemplify how batty Izzet actually is, and how Niv-Mizzet can so easily exist "beside himself" whereas with other Legendary characters, you generally see their card change significantly enough that the Legend rule doesn't apply anymore. .

Besides himself? Isn't the return supposed to be in the future after the guildpact broke or whatever?

Everything is just time sensitive. We'll see this also when they spoil Tesya I bet, and other legends

[Telperion]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/sf/211

Wow. A new Sneak Attack creature has arrived.

a. Laughs at Karakas
b. 30 power with Trample

Edit: And GSZ just got a ridiculous maindeckable grave hate critter

http://castlesandcooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/h-dryad-militant.jpg

[ivanpei]

Gravehate dude abit narrow, ooze still better because even if you topdeck it or gsz into it late, it still does something. Ooze also messes with reanimator and dredge. Ooze is a big threat while being a hate card while this guy is a 2/1 weenie. Mav isn't all that aggressive, so maybe a faster deck can make use of the dryad more.

That 15/15 is insane. Sneak attack has another target. Too bad it still dies to plow. Griselbrand is better. Natural order also fetches it. Funny thing is that double natural order hands with this fatty is actually good. You swing with it, then sack it for 3 dudes. Since it shuffles back when it dies, you just fetch it back out.

Possible resurgence for NO decks? Instead of bant or rug NO, perhaps a junk style NO might be better. Have this wurm and Proggy as targets. Proggy against stp decks and wurm against non stp decks. Also if you run therapy, you can dodge stp by saccing it to therapy before you pass priority.

Bug NO suddenly seems very attractive. With Thoughtseize and therapy to protect NO, the deck seems pretty good. The old problem with NO decks was that it's too slow to some aggro decks. This wurm is just a massive roadblock if you have some way to kill it. Ie when you have Proggy, you leave yourself open to an alpha when you swing. With this wurm you can swing, then sac it somehow, say with therapy and have an army to block and also to swing FTW the next turn.

A bug NO deck with Thoughtseize, therapies and a Tarmogoyf back up plan seems pretty good.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would rather Sneak Attack out a Rune-Scarred Demon because that would grab me an Emrakul and I wouldn't lose to StP.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Maverick players: is Grove of the Guardian good enough for a 1-of?

...No?


Now ignore the Maverick part and replace it with Overgrown Battlement and we might have the beginning of a deck.

eta: Derp, wrong one. Still, I'd think you'd rather have Gavony Township if anything like that.

[lordofthepit]

Edit: And GSZ just got a ridiculous maindeckable grave hate critter

http://castlesandcooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/h-dryad-militant.jpg

Between Judge's Familiar, this card, and the rest of the cycle, Legacy will be seeing a lot more 1-drops. Can anyone say power creep?!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Between Judge's Familiar, this card, and the rest of the cycle, Legacy will be seeing a lot more 1-drops. Can anyone say power creep?!

Yeah, what's with the hate-lion?

[Valtrix]

I think it's more just that 1cc creatures have to give a lot to actually be playable because they have to compete with 2cc creatures which usually do an insane amount and aren't that much harder to cast. Otherwise you get stuck with a bunch of bad cards, even if their early tempo is decent, especially when you draw them later in the game.

[bruizar]

So much for snapcaster mage and past in flames. Ugh I hate that dryad already. Intuition, Cabal Therapy, Recurring Nightmare, Gifts Ungiven, Dread Return, Cabal Ritual, Nimble Mongoose, Timespiral.

Thanks wotc

[Philipp2293]

Also Life from the Loam and P. Fire. At least 1 sb slot in Mav. Then again, my RUG control homebrew is hurt a lot by this :(

[bruizar]

Get sulfur elementals for your RUG. And everything that plays black should prepare with Perish/Nature's Ruin/Virtue's Ruin.

[kiblast]

I like that Dryad Militant a lot. Lovely card design, amazing art, fits the WG theme. And its a decent hatebear, by decent I mean playable AND not overpowered. Could be even playable in Vintage, it messes with Yawgwin and Snapcontrol pretty nicely.

[RJM]

This just in: WotC officially announces that it wishes that it never printed anything that wasn't a creature. All subsequent printings will now be geared towards making sure that if you don't like turning dudes sideways, your strategy is irrelevant.

[Malchar]

Between Judge's Familiar, this card, and the rest of the cycle, Legacy will be seeing a lot more 1-drops. Can anyone say power creep?!

I have a feeling that the non-bant creatures are going to have stupid drawbacks. Something like this:

Rakdos's Jester :br:
Creature - Goblin Advisor
When ~ dies, you lose the game.
2/1

[Final Fortune]

Wow, what a pain in the ass for Dredge; Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, Faithless Looting and Darkblast all get RFGed and you can play it on turn 2 consistently with Green Sun's Zenith?

Firestorm is looking mighty necessary.

[Gheizen64]

Well i'm thinking all hybrid creatures are doing something with instants, so probably the rakdos one ping players when they cast an instant or a sorcery

[bruizar]

I like that Dryad Militant a lot. Lovely card design, amazing art, fits the WG theme. And its a decent hatebear, by decent I mean playable AND not overpowered. Could be even playable in Vintage, it messes with Yawgwin and Snapcontrol pretty nicely.

I also like the art and utility, but GSZ just makes this card too good imo. Scavenging Ooze costs 4 mana (GSZ+Ooze+Activate), this card costs 2 mana. This is way too undercosted for only 1 slot in your deck. This card will wreck a lot of decks. To add insult to injury, GSZ gets SHUFFLED into the library instead of removed from the game by this Dryad.

[Dia_Bot]

Seriously, a one mana 2/1 hatecard...
Yeah because we really needed more graveyard hate cards.:rolleyes:

[catmint]

Would like to hear if Maverick players think it is worth a slot. It does not really stop dredge and does nothing against reanimator. To use a GSZ (and an early turn) vs. a snapcaster deck for this card seems weak... why not just go for an ooze or teeg? It has it's applications against lingerling souls, cabal therapy,... but since it is more narrow than teeg, I think it is a sideboard slot at best.

Btw... I also don't like the card. Don't think G/W needs more/better hatebears...

[sco0ter]

Lotleth Troll :b::g:
Creature - Zombie Troll
Trample
Discard a creature card from your hand: Put a +1/+1 counter on Lotleth Troll.
:b:: Regenerate Lotleth Troll.
2/1

Actually really good, isn't it? So many positive abilities for a mere 2 mana. I see applications with Squee and Madness, or even Reanimator.

[Gheizen64]

I don't think this is as good as most of you think. Dredge still largely work with this in play, and a 2/1 can't block anything dredge has without dying. Reanimator is basically unaffected by this.
It's a pretty fine card against snapcasters, lingering souls and mongoose, but it's hardly gamebreaking.

A 2/1 for 1 just isn't good anymore, and a card like Ooze is played because it gain you life (thus being relevant against aggressive strategies too) and hate reanimator/Dredge and KotR while ending the game in 3 swings usually. This does none of those things.

I'm thinking this will see limited play, if any. Not that that's a bad thing, i love "almost maindeckable" cards.

As for the rest

R&B :br:
Creature - Devil
Intimidate
Whenever a player cast an instant or a sorcery spell, deal 1 damage to that player
1/1

I'm blue, thus better :ur:
Creature - Wizard
Amazing (this card can be pitched to FoW and can be casted by islands)
Sacrifice this, change the target of target instant or sorcery spell
1/1

EDIT: there's Golgari too...

Dark elf :bg:
Creature - Elf
Deathtouch
T: add G or B to your mana pool. You can't use this mana to cast sorcery or instant spells.
1/1

[Gheizen64]

Lotleth Troll :b::g:
Creature - Zombie Troll
Trample
Discard a creature card from your hand: Put a +1/+1 counter on Lotleth Troll.
:b:: Regenerate Lotleth Troll.
2/1

Actually really good, isn't it? So many positive abilities for a mere 2 mana. I see applications with Squee and Madness, or even Reanimator.

Wow this is so good <3. I'm thinking BG with rootwalla, gravecrawlers, vengevines, therapies, carrion feeder, the new BG discard "impulse", wild mongrel maybe too.
Trample and regen together is such a nice combination for aggressive creatures.

[Darkenslight]

Between Judge's Familiar, this card, and the rest of the cycle, Legacy will be seeing a lot more 1-drops. Can anyone say power creep?!

Now we know the real reason for Mental Misstep's ban in Legacy! /silly

On a more serious note, has anyone seen the Wurm?

Worldspine Wurm 8GGG
Trample
When ~ dies, put 3 5/5 green Wurm tokens with trample onto the field.
Graveyard from anywhere, Shuffle back in.
15/15

I think this is an alt-win for Sneak Attack/S'n'T variants.

[bruizar]

I don't think the wurm adds anything new. STP/Jace -> Done. Also, no comes into play trigger. It has no relevant protection. Just another dumb powercreep.

[lordofthepit]

I don't think this is as good as most of you think. Dredge still largely work with this in play, and a 2/1 can't block anything dredge has without dying.

Against Dredge, being easy to kill is an advantage.

I think the natural home for this card is in Zoo. Basically, a deck that can make use of an aggressive body while having some use for the disruption. Way better than Loam Lion/Kird Ape (except against random shit like Dread of Night, Sulfur Elemental, and Pyrokinesis).

[xfxf]

Regarding the Dryad Militant, to see how stupid the power creep is I'd like to remind you that Savannah Lions (W to cast, 2/1, no abilities) is a Rare card compared to Dryad Militant which is easier to cast (flexible mana cost), same power and toughness, has hatebear abilities while being an Uncommon.

Please Wizards, stop making incredible bombs like Griselbrand and Omniscience, please stop printing power creeped creatures. How hard can it be to create simpler strategic balances like back in the Tempest block?

Edit: I also don't like the flavor text. It's giving me the impression that the GW colors represent the close minded, conservative, religious zealots in addition to my prejudice of it being the colors of "stupid aggro". The fantasy world nature protectors like Llanowar Elves (one bone broken for every twig snapped under foot) is OK in my view but the opposition about scientific progression is taking it out of context. I don't like it.

[bruizar]

Regarding the Dryad Militant, to see how stupid the power creep is I'd like to remind you that Savannah Lions (W to cast, 2/1, no abilities) is a Rare card compared to Dryad Militant which is easier to cast (flexible mana cost), same power and toughness, has hatebear abilities while being an Uncommon.

Please Wizards, stop making incredible bombs like Griselbrand and Omniscience, please stop printing power creeped creatures. How hard can it be to create simpler strategic balances like back in the Tempest block?

Edit: I also don't like the flavor text. It's giving me the impression that the UW colors represent the close minded, conservative, religious zealots in addition to my prejudice of it being the colors of "stupid aggro". The fantasy world nature protectors like Llanowar Elves (one bone broken for every twig snapped under foot) is OK in my view but the opposition about scientific progression is taking it out of context. I don't like it.

My 4 beta savannah lions are not amused. Basically, everything you said is right.

[lordofthepit]

Please Wizards, stop making incredible bombs like Griselbrand and Omniscience, please stop printing power creeped creatures. How hard can it be to create simpler strategic balances like back in the Tempest block?

That's my favorite block, but I hope you're not referring to Oath of Druids, Survival of the Fittest, Recurring Nightmare, etc. as examples of balanced design.

[xfxf]

It was balanced back in the day because blue had decent counters, board sweepers, bounce, legacy's allure etc. against the Survival decks while red and green had their Sligh and Stompy deck to punish blue. I think it had a lot of character and balance.

[jam3sbob]

if the militant is darkblasted, does the darkblast get rfg?

[lordofthepit]

if the militant is darkblasted, does the darkblast get rfg?

Yes. Damage spells or -X/-X spells will get RFG.

Terror/StP effects will go into the graveyard.

[Lord Seth]

Regarding the Dryad Militant, to see how stupid the power creep is I'd like to remind you that Savannah Lions (W to cast, 2/1, no abilities) is a Rare card compared to Dryad Militant which is easier to cast (flexible mana cost), same power and toughness, has hatebear abilities while being an Uncommon.Savannah Lions being Rare made little sense to me, honestly. It's a one-color vanilla small creature, what's Rare-worthy about that?

Though I'm confused as to why the rarity matters in a case like this. A card's rarity shouldn't just be based on its power.
Now we know the real reason for Mental Misstep's ban in Legacy! /silly

On a more serious note, has anyone seen the Wurm?

Worldspine Wurm 8GGG
Trample
When ~ dies, put 3 5/5 green Wurm tokens with trample onto the field.
Graveyard from anywhere, Shuffle back in.
15/15

I think this is an alt-win for Sneak Attack/S'n'T variants.I'm dubious about it seeing play in Show and Tell or Sneak Attack. If you're going to devote so much to getting a creature into play in those decks, it'd better be able to stand up to cards like Swords to Plowshares, which this...doesn't. Emrakul and Progenitus dodge it entirely, and Griselbrand at least draws you 7 extra cards off the lifegain. This one has no protection whatsoever against the most common removal spell in the format.

The fact you'd get 15 life out of it is nice...but I don't think it'll be going into the deck just because the creatures already in the deck seem to be so much better.

[(nameless one)]

Worldspine Wurm seems like a good Sneak Attack/Through the Breach target. Not so much for Show and Tell as there are simply more better options.

I remember certain Sneak/Show decks ran Wurmcoil Engine because the same reason that it leaves bodies behind when it gets sacrificed from Sneak Attack.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

What is it with all the negativity on the one-drops? We get solid one-drops with utility instead of just (annoying) insane beatdown stats like Delver, finally a good non-blue piece of library manipulation and a fattie that is insanely powerful but still possible to beat.

The 2/1 is particularly sweet because while it disrupts a lot of strategies from Storm (PiF) through RUG (Mongoose) all the way to Dredge (Therapy, Dread Return, Looting), it doesn't really shut of these decks either. That's exactly the kind of hate I enjoy: cheap enough to matter, powerful enough to be meaningful but limited enough to actually allow for gameplay to continue instead of turning the game into "can you solve my hatecard".
So far I'm loving the direction this set is going!

[Aggro_zombies]

That Wurm is a pretty clear Ken Nagle design: big derpy fattie with no drawback and high Timmy appeal. Exactly the sort of card I was worried about seeing when I heard this set had Nagle leading it. That said, it's not Sneak Attack-playable because Griselly Bear and Emrakul are already better and you don't want to load up on dudes in that deck.

The 2/1 is pretty clearly built to answer Snapcaster in Standard, and I suspect it will be merely okay in Legacy. The 2/1 body is actually not very good, and I don't think Maverick can afford to load up on relatively poor attackers even if they're moderately disruptive. That said, it's probably still fine as a sideboard or maindeck 1-of versus RUG and various combo decks.

[JDK]

I am mad because I was so happy when I got those Savannah Lions all those years ago. Then they made them Uncommon (Elite Vanguard) and now they even let the player decide if he wants to pay G or W and make them the best MD answer to Snapcaster Mage out there.

Regardless of shutting down Pyromancer's Ascension in Modern completely...

"Fight Fire with Fire"

[xfxf]

Though I'm confused as to why the rarity matters in a case like this.

The rarity doesn't matter, it's an indication behind the philosophy and that's what matters. Back in the day colors had their own character and an acceptable power level for certain things. Since green was the color of aggro and creatures, 1cc 2/x creatures were commons and since White had a different role a 1cc 2/x creature was something White wouldn't normally have to give it the such an aggro boost, thus a White beater with the same specs would be a rare card. Today not only the color pie is completely messed up (from every direction) but also the creep makes it unexciting for the dynamics we are used to playing with since the power level boundaries are gone (imo).

The whole aim of this power creep is to make us all (including the eternal format players) play with the recent cards and pour money into the in-print products and slowly, over time dissolve the older formats, which are also bound by the reserved list, and get all the players in this money wheel. I don't know if this is a conspiracy theory or just a rant but I'll stop it here as I don't intend to stir up an irrelevant discussion.

[TsumiBand]

Interesting distinction between -X/-X spells and simple "Destroy" or "Exile" effects. The key is state-based effects aren't checked under the spell is done resolving, and the last action a card takes when it's on the stack is to go to the correct zone. Creatures try to go to the battlefield, instants/sorceries try to go to the graveyard; Darkblast or Lightning Bolt wouldn't actually kill the creature until SBEs are checked, so there's no chance for Dryad Militant to die before such a spell tries to hit the bin, but can't and gets exiled.

Honestly I do not think that this spell is going to ruin anyone's graveyard-based strategy. It doesn't really matter how many Grafdigger's Cages or Dryad Militants get printed, because those cards are fair. They cost mana and they will never win the game just by being cast. They hang around and wait to get answered. Meanwhile a combo player just digs for the answer, while the aggro player is busy NOT leading with their best beaters. It gives new kids that play non-Maverick GW Beats a false sense of security, and they might steal a game with it, but I don't think it's going to shut down everything ever.

[JDK]

The difference between the Dryad and cards like Cage is, that you can easily play the Dryad Maindeck and ALWAYS get value out of her.

[rufus]

Anyone want to side bet that 'detain' will only refer to nonland permanents?

Dryad Militant could be a pretty strong metagame/sideboard choice for D&T type decks, and if they print 2/1 for 1 hatebears in bulk, they could snowball.

[Michael Keller]

Well, fuck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Realistically, 2/1s or even 2/2s for 1cc with bonuses are the only way to expand the range of one drops available in Legacy (and we already saw that in Gravecrawler.)

[joemauer]

The new and improved Wild Mongrel & Savannah Lions are neat, but what I really want is a power crept Psychatog.
Something like this:
1UB
Creature - Merfolk(why not right?)

Flying, Hexproof.
Ability- Remove a card from anywhere(library, hand, or graveyard) to give creature +1/+1 until end of turn.


Yes it would be broken but intentionally so like Psychatog or Tarmogofy.

[Koby]

The new and improved Wild Mongrel & Savannah Lions are neat, but what I really want is a power crept Psychatog.
Something like this:
1UB
Creature - Merfolk(why not right?)

Flying, Hexproof.
Ability- Remove a card from anywhere(library, hand, or graveyard) to give creature +1/+1 until end of turn.


Yes it would be broken but intentionally so like Psychatog or Tarmogofy.

This card is missing the Amazing keyword (Can be pitched to Force of Will and be cast with Islands).

[wcm8]

I think these new 1-drops are great. So far, they are all playable and have interesting effects without being overly obnoxious or game-breaking.

Also, I don't really think Dryad is that big of a problem for RUG or Snapcaster decks. I'd much rather they be dropping this guy on turn one instead of Mother of Runes, and he's also not anywhere near as threatening as Scavenging Ooze. It also gets answered by the same cards you'd be using against G/Wx aggro strategies regardless. It's more of a speed bump than a completely devastating immediate must-answer.

The decks that really get hurt by this card are certain combo decks that rely on graveyard interaction like Dredge, High Tide, and Storm (Past in Flames, Ill Gotten Gains, and even Cabal Ritual get significantly weaker with this guy in play) -- this comes out fast enough to throw a wrench in those decks' gameplans. I like that they are giving non-blue decks a way to combat combo.

[csy]

Alright! The sky is falling conversations started!


My gift of seeing the future tells me there will be more than a hundered pages of hive mind complaining about new cards then after they are released nothing will change drastically.

[Kjell]

Regarding the Dryad Militant, to see how stupid the power creep is I'd like to remind you that Savannah Lions (W to cast, 2/1, no abilities) is a Rare card compared to Dryad Militant which is easier to cast (flexible mana cost), same power and toughness, has hatebear abilities while being an Uncommon.

Savannah Lions isn't a rare nowadays, though. It's an uncommon. And a soldier but that doesn't make it weaker. It is a big leap to make it easier to cast and available in more than one colour along with giving it a potentially relevant hate ability but a lot of stuff has been better than Savannah Lions for some time now. This one just makes it explicit.


Edit: I also don't like the flavor text. It's giving me the impression that the GW colors represent the close minded, conservative, religious zealots in addition to my prejudice of it being the colors of "stupid aggro". The fantasy world nature protectors like Llanowar Elves (one bone broken for every twig snapped under foot) is OK in my view but the opposition about scientific progression is taking it out of context. I don't like it.

Izzet really isn't (heh) about sane scientific procedures. They don't make useful things and don't really care about the consequences of their more or less random experiments. Calling what they do "progress" in scare quotes is fully appropriate.


That Wurm is a pretty clear Ken Nagle design: big derpy fattie with no drawback and high Timmy appeal. Exactly the sort of card I was worried about seeing when I heard this set had Nagle leading it.

Why would you be worried about seeing a large, expensive creature? It can't even be particularly cheated onto the field. I'd be more worried about something that indicated, IDK, the next dredge or whatever. This is no Griselbrand.

[Aggro_zombies]

The decks that really get hurt by this card are certain combo decks that rely on graveyard interaction like Dredge, High Tide, and Storm (Past in Flames, Ill Gotten Gains, and even Cabal Ritual get significantly weaker with this guy in play) -- this comes out fast enough to throw a wrench in those decks' gameplans. I like that they are giving non-blue decks a way to combat combo.
Judge's Familiar, Thalia, Canonist, and Teeg are all better answers to combo. Storm decks don't need the graveyard to go off, making Familiar better most of the time. Dredge is hurt, sure, but something like Crypt or Relic is still a better answer to there in most cases (and Scavenging Ooze is always a better answer except in cases where they are coming out of the gates at a blistering pace). I guess High Tide gets hurt, but honestly a 2/1 with that ability does not seem tremendously threatening to that deck.

I do agree with you that this guy is being overestimated right now, though. Scavenging Ooze seems like it will be as good or better at least 75% of the time. Unlike Dryad, Ooze is actually a decent attacker.

EDIT:
Why would you be worried about seeing a large, expensive creature? It can't even be particularly cheated onto the field. I'd be more worried about something that indicated, IDK, the next dredge or whatever. This is no Griselbrand.
It's not that I'm worried about it for Constructed; the card is terrible there. It's just that I hate what it represents: power and splash creep. Also, the parade of big herp-a-derp fatties gets really old after a while, especially when they're aimed as obviously at EDH and casual players as this one. I can't wait for the upteen million mono-green decks around here to start running this because "it's so good against Wraths!" - it's gotten to the point where Perish is a perfectly good maindeck card in my meta.

[Koby]

FWIW, my losses from Dredge have always been at the hands of Cabal Therapy rather than Bridge from Below. When you start your second turn with 3 cards in your hand, 2 of which being lands - those are the games you're going to be losing. The new Dryad is a great turn 1 play against Dredge, but by no means is it a solution. It still needs to be backed by other forms of hate (like Ooze).


What is it with all the negativity on the one-drops? We get solid one-drops with utility instead of just (annoying) insane beatdown stats like Delver, finally a good non-blue piece of library manipulation and a fattie that is insanely powerful but still possible to beat.


Maybe my morning coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but which card are you referring to?

[Gheizen64]

FWIW, my losses from Dredge have always been at the hands of Cabal Therapy rather than Bridge from Below. When you start your second turn with 3 cards in your hand, 2 of which being lands - those are the games you're going to be losing. The new Dryad is a great turn 1 play against Dredge, but by no means is it a solution. It still needs to be backed by other forms of hate (like Ooze).



Maybe my morning coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but which card are you referring to?

The new Mulch i guess

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/rtr/72z7daok0k_en.jpg

Didn't notice it was an instant at first. This is a really good card imho, probably playable in legacy.

[Aggro_zombies]

FWIW, my losses from Dredge have always been at the hands of Cabal Therapy rather than Bridge from Below. When you start your second turn with 3 cards in your hand, 2 of which being lands - those are the games you're going to be losing. The new Dryad is a great turn 1 play against Dredge, but by no means is it a solution. It still needs to be backed by other forms of hate (like Ooze).
The Dryad is probably a 1-2-of sideboard card. It's fine against Dredge because a 2/1 is still a decent attacker and blocker there (and if they trade for it, their Bridges go away), but it's something I'd be leery about putting in my maindeck because Maverick already has enough disruptive creatures that get brick walled by a Tarmogoyf.

EDIT:

The new Mulch i guess

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/rtr/72z7daok0k_en.jpg

Didn't notice it was an instant at first. This is a really good card imho, probably playable in legacy.
It's an Impulse, not a Mulch, and is not particularly playable. It's in a bad color combination and much, much worse than GSZ.

[Zinch]

It's an Impulse, not a Mulch, and is not particularly playable. It's in a bad color combination and much, much worse than GSZ.

With the new troll, gravecrawler, bloodghast, zombie infestation, squee,... I think we have a new deck and this card is nuts in there

[Aggro_zombies]

With the new troll, gravecrawler, bloodghast, zombie infestation, squee,... I think we have a new deck and this card is nuts in there
If you're running Infestation and the new Troll, I don't think you want to be trading cards one-for-one. You only get a single activation of the Troll/Infestation out of pulling up a Gravecrawler/Ghast, though I guess binning a bunch would make you more explosive. But on the other hand, I don't want to be the Worse Dredge Deck that has to pay mana/hit land drops to get its two-power guys out of the graveyard.

[FieryBalrog]

Grisly Salvage is better than Impulse because the cards go to the GY (so if you design your deck around it, it can be 3-4 cards for 1) but it's in worse colors, and way more linear. It seems better in a slower format that will actually allow you to durdle around with Life from the Loam and Bloodghasts to get value out of it. There's probably a sick GBx deck in Modern coming up, as GBx Loam is already pretty good there.

Not good enough for Legacy, but cool card.

[Barook]

I'm more interested if all of those hybrid 1cc creatures are meant to be a cycle of efficient hate bears or just Dryad and Judge being powerful exceptions.

Because I can't see Rakdos getting anything good in terms of utility creature. The color combination just sucks for this.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm more interested if all of those hybrid 1cc creatures are meant to be a cycle of efficient hate bears or just Dryad and Judge being powerful exceptions.

Because I can't see Rakdos getting anything good in terms of utility creature. The color combination just sucks for this.
Rakdos Herp-a-Derp
B/R
When ~ ETB, it deals one damage to target creature and one damage to that creature's controller.
1/1

Seems decent against Thalia, Mom, Noble, Birds, the new Familiar, the new Dryad, and to a lesser extent Snapcaster and Clique.

EDIT: Sac to ping might be more in line with Rakdos and would probably be better overall, actually.

[Koby]

I'm envisioning a Rakdos 1-drop that reads "When ~ enters the battlefield, each players discards a card." This seems to line up with Hellbent & the new Rakdos cards that are pushing discard.

It also seems to have some off-guild synergy with Golgari, which is what we would expect for hybrid.

[Gui]

Good days when 2/x for 1cmc was already good. Now they come with an amazing ability, are cast by 2 colors and still need some talk to decide if they can fit into some decks or sideboards. Proof of how creatures were indeed underpowered in the past, or proof of powercreep, or both?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Maybe my morning coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but which card are you referring to?

Yep, was talking about Grisly Salvage. I honestly think that card has quite a bit of potential between recurring creatures, Cabal Therapy and Eternal Witness. I mean it's basically a better Impulse for a creature-heavy BG midrange deck.


Good days when 2/x for 1cmc was already good. Now they come with an amazing ability, are cast by 2 colors and still need some talk to decide if they can fit into some decks or sideboards. Proof of how creatures were indeed underpowered in the past, or proof of powercreep, or both?

Both, though at this level I think it's "correct" power creep, that is to say bringing creatures up to the right level, not making them too good.

[(nameless one)]

Grisly Salvage seems like a good Impulse in Aluren decks.

[Barook]

Good days when 2/x for 1cmc was already good. Now they come with an amazing ability, are cast by 2 colors and still need some talk to decide if they can fit into some decks or sideboards. Proof of how creatures were indeed underpowered in the past, or proof of powercreep, or both?
It's true that there only a handful of actual powerful 1cc drops (Hierach, Mom, Lavamancer, Delver and tribal stuff like Cursecatcher and Lackey), so bumping the power level of those a bit might not be a bad thing as long as it doesn't result in the next Delver.

@Aggro_Zombies: What about a Mogg Fanatic that sac: deals 2 damage to target creature or player? Considering combat shenanigans were nerfed into oblivion with the rule changes, would that be still too powerful by today's standards?
The hybrid cycle does seem to push it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Grisly Salvage seems like a good Impulse in Aluren decks.
Except it can't find Aluren, the one card you absolutely need to do anything.

@Barook: Well, I'm not sure how NWO-compliant these cards are. Ember Hauler had a mana cost associated with the damage, and it was also uncommon; smaller body might justify the smaller mana cost, but free sacrificing seems like it would add too much board complexity. The fact that a Shock can kill so much more than a simple ping makes me think it would probably be ":1:, Sacrifice ~:" to get the effect, which is still not bad.

[rufus]

.
@Aggro_Zombies: What about a Mogg Fanatic that sac: deals 2 damage to target creature or player? Considering combat shenanigans were nerfed into oblivion with the rule changes, would that be still too powerful by today's standards?
The hybrid cycle does seem to push it.

As a 2/1, 1-drop non-goblin that would be pretty strong. A 1-drop Headhunter or Ravenous Rats might also be legacy playables.

Speaking of rats, Training Grounds+Pack Rat seems like it could be fun as a casual deck.

[rufus]

Grisly Salvage seems like a good Impulse in Aluren decks.

I find myself thinking more along the lines of some kind of reanimator with Necrotic Ooze or Loyal Retainers though there's already lots of strong reanimator options and grave hate.

[RJM]

Speaking of rats, Training Grounds+Pack Rat seems like it could be fun as a casual deck.

Haha, trained rats. That's awesome.

[Gheizen64]

More than anything, i think the hybrid cycle work with instant and sorceries, if the first two cards are anything to go by.

[Kjell]

EDIT:
It's not that I'm worried about it for Constructed; the card is terrible there. It's just that I hate what it represents: power and splash creep. Also, the parade of big herp-a-derp fatties gets really old after a while, especially when they're aimed as obviously at EDH and casual players as this one. I can't wait for the upteen million mono-green decks around here to start running this because "it's so good against Wraths!" - it's gotten to the point where Perish is a perfectly good maindeck card in my meta.

There will always be big, expensive, uncomplicated green fatties. It's part of what the colour does. It's why it has mana ramping. That these cards have little real chance of seeing any, never mind widespread, use in tournaments is not a concern. Even most of the interesting ones don't. That's just the nature of the game.

I too prefer green cards that do something more mechanically interesting but there will always be at least one dumb green fatty. In this case it's particularly huge but I can't say that it's really splashier than Primordial Hydra or something. With eleven mana you can do just about anything and the only notable thing about spending all that on this creature is that your opponent will generally have to use two removal spells (unless they can exile or counter it).

[bruizar]

There will always be big, expensive, uncomplicated green fatties. It's part of what the colour does. It's why it has mana ramping. That these cards have little real chance of seeing any, never mind widespread, use in tournaments is not a concern. Even most of the interesting ones don't. That's just the nature of the game.

I too prefer green cards that do something more mechanically interesting but there will always be at least one dumb green fatty. In this case it's particularly huge but I can't say that it's really splashier than Primordial Hydra or something. With eleven mana you can do just about anything and the only notable thing about spending all that on this creature is that your opponent will generally have to use two removal spells (unless they can exile or counter it).

How many creatures are there with more than 15 power in this game? This one has 15+3*5. Wotc is trying to one-up the fatties every time and this has nothing to do with the fact that this card is green.

[rufus]

How many creatures are there with more than 15 power in this game? This one has 15+3*5. Wotc is trying to one-up the fatties every time and this has nothing to do with the fact that this card is green.

There's not much difference between 10 power and 15 power compared to 1 power and 2 power, or even 6 power and 7 power.

[Koby]

How many creatures are there with more than 15 power in this game? This one has 15+3*5. Wotc is trying to one-up the fatties every time and this has nothing to do with the fact that this card is green.

Terrastadon is 18 power guaranteed. This one is 15 and 15. Your math is off.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I like the Dryad, even though it is blatant power creep. It's good, but probably not good enough to be a core element of Maverick; the deck already has too much stuff to choose from. Zoo, if it ever comes back, will probably love it. Still waiting for good Black/Red cards though. I'd love to see them get the same treatment Green and White have gotten from Wizards since Onslaught onwards. I realize this love will go unrequited.

Hate everything the Wurm stands for. The idea of selling sets based on WHOAMYGOD fatties is going to backfire very soon, if it already hasn't (Hi Emrakul), as Wizards always makes mistakes. And I hate the "printed for EDH" cards like it, taking what was once a fun format with uses for a lot of obscure, older cards and turning it into a stupid mess of dropping enormous haymakers that will be completely outclassed in the next set. Yay!

[Fizzeler]

Well, fuck.
My thoughts exactly I already went on a long rant about a few of the spoilers with friends

I like the Dryad, even though it is blatant power creep. It's good, but probably not good enough to be a core element of Maverick; the deck already has too much stuff to choose from. Zoo, if it ever comes back, will probably love it. Still waiting for good Black/Red cards though. I'd love to see them get the same treatment Green and White have gotten from Wizards since Onslaught onwards. I realize this love will go unrequited.

Hate everything the Wurm stands for. The idea of selling sets based on WHOAMYGOD fatties is going to backfire very soon, if it already hasn't (Hi Emrakul), as Wizards always makes mistakes. And I hate the "printed for EDH" cards like it, taking what was once a fun format with uses for a lot of obscure, older cards and turning it into a stupid mess of dropping enormous haymakers that will be completely outclassed in the next set. Yay!
I dislike the Dryad, blatant power creep and actually wonder how much of an impact it will have in non-standard constructed formats, I can see it in Vintage as turn 1 Dryad can shut off Yawg Will decks and Snap Control. In Legacy it could be anywhere from broken to Griselbrand to nothing hard to tell, but I definitely don't like it

As for the Wurm I can see it in NO decks, maybe a resurgence of the old NO decks?

[xeraseth]

My thoughts exactly I already went on a long rant about a few of the spoilers with friends

I dislike the Dryad, blatant power creep and actually wonder how much of an impact it will have in non-standard constructed formats, I can see it in Vintage as turn 1 Dryad can shut off Yawg Will decks and Snap Control. In Legacy it could be anywhere from broken to Griselbrand to nothing hard to tell, but I definitely don't like it

As for the Wurm I can see it in NO decks, maybe a resurgence of the old NO decks?
Dryad will not ever beed as broken as Gbrand since the Dryad is a reactive card (2 power 1 drops already exist and most don't get played). It is solid and I think is unnecessary but decks will adapt. As of right now the only Tier 1 legacy deck I see caring about it is UW. RUG doesn't really run Snapcaster and even if it did it has so much burn that they could kill it pretty easily. It's annoying to UW cause it feels like a waste Swording this, but it will have to be done.

[Fizzeler]

Dryad will not ever beed as broken as Gbrand since the Dryad is a reactive card (2 power 1 drops already exist and most don't get played). It is solid and I think is unnecessary but decks will adapt. As of right now the only Tier 1 legacy deck I see caring about it is UW. RUG doesn't really run Snapcaster and even if it did it has so much burn that they could kill it pretty easily. It's annoying to UW cause it feels like a waste Swording this, but it will have to be done.

I see several decks worrying about this card, Past In Flames Storm, High Tide, Dredge

[Barook]

I like the Dryad, even though it is blatant power creep. It's good, but probably not good enough to be a core element of Maverick; the deck already has too much stuff to choose from. Zoo, if it ever comes back, will probably love it. Still waiting for good Black/Red cards though. I'd love to see them get the same treatment Green and White have gotten from Wizards since Onslaught onwards. I realize this love will go unrequited.
To be fair, G/W as color combination only became a real powerhouse after the printing of Conflux onwards, providing Hierarch, Pridemage and KotR, and some time later, GSZ.

Black/Red simply don't share much interesting design space. New LD sucks and creature kill has been overdone to death. Let's have a look at this card:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135265&d=1346731271

Sulfuric Vortex, except horribly overcosted. If that's the best stuff they can come up with, I don't have high hopes.

Stuff like discard-burn (Blightning sucks) or Agonizing Demise style-cards at a reasonable casting cost, among other things, could provide interesting, powerful cards.

[Koby]

Ya I agree, at :4::r::b: I expect the enchantment to ONLY affect opponents. How or why is this any better than Everlasting Torment?

[Fizzeler]

Who knows maybe the B/R guy is

B/R
~ Enters the battlefield tapped
Tap, Sac: Destroy Target Non-Basic Land
1/1

[rufus]

.,..
Black/Red simply don't share much interesting design space.
....

That's why they got dread bore.