Countering the Winning Card or countering the Enabler

[KobeBryan]

For instance, they play burning wish to get Show and Tell.

Do you save your counter for the following turn to counter the show and tell or counter the burning wish?

[Einherjer]

As long as I do not play against Hive Mind, where it would matter, I counter the real card - Show and Tell.

Greetings

[xfxf]

Playing Burning Wish can very well be a trap do draw out a counter. In fact if they are already holding a S&T casting a Burning Wish is a win-win because if you counter it you are one counter down for the show down, if you don't counter it they get the overmaster and they are 1 protection up for the show down. In either case they are getting one step ahead :)

[Telperion]

For instance, they play burning wish to get Show and Tell.

Do you save your counter for the following turn to counter the show and tell or counter the burning wish?

That depends entirely on the context of given information. Do you know their hand/ what deck they are playing? Do you have a 2nd counter or a delver on the board that can exploit tempo? Is it postboard, can you do something like surgical?

In a vacuum letting them get a show and tell and countering it might buy you a turn but this can be really dangerous. You might allow them to grab a thoughtseize/overmaster which beats your disruption.

[Darkenslight]

It depends almost entirely on the matchup. For example, against Belcher, it's almost always correct to counter the Belcher. Against Sneak'n'Show, you're probably right to counter the enabler (SnT, BWish, Sneak Attack), but there are good reasons why you may not want to.

Against most other decks, it's probably right to counter the enabler.

[Koby]

Imagine the worse case scenario:
Burning Wish grabbing Overmaster to resolve Show & Tell.
Burning Wish grabbing Thoughtseize to remove your counter and resolve Show & Tell.

By not countering the enabler, your opponent has an uncounterable threat.

This all depends on how you plan on stopping the threat/enabler.

[Esper3k]

For me, I think unless they're playing something like Storm and BWing for a Storm card, then you counter what they Wished for.

The way I see it is like the following scenarios:

1) They BW and already have Show & Tell in hand. If BW resolves, they're getting some protection. You need 2 counters to beat this. If you let the BW resolve, they at least have to spend the extra mana to cast their protection spell before casting Show & Tell.

2) They have BW and are BWing for Show & Tell. You need 1 counter to beat this. Again, if you just counter the Show & Tell, it costs them extra mana and time to do this.

The caveat to the above scenarios is that your counters is if your answers are situational, ie spells like Daze, Spell Pierce, or Flusterstorm, where they may not be usable if the enabler resolves. In that case, you probably want to counter the BW.

[death]

I would wait for Show and Tell. If everything works out, I wouldn't be far behind in card quantity (assuming the counter here is Force of Will you both lose 2 cards) and they won't be able to Wish > S&T again. If they go for Overmaster, I'd counter that one in a heartbeat but never Burning Wish. (If they have B.Wish + S&T you lose either way if you only have a single counter).

[Dia_Bot]

Also important when opting not countering the BW but the Show and tell instead is if you succeed in countering the Show and tell future burning wishes lose alot of their functionality as they can no longer find Show and tell.

[Esper3k]

In the case of Omniscience, I'm pretty sure most of the lists just lose the game if you let them BW for Show & Tell, counter the Show & Tell, then Surgical / Extirpate it.

[death]

So please no more 'Ban Show and Tell' threads this time :)

[Esper3k]

So please no more 'Ban Show and Tell' threads this time :)

Clearly Tarmogoyf is the one that needs to go. That guy is imba.

[Kuma]

It depends almost entirely on the matchup. For example, against Belcher, it's almost always correct to counter the Belcher.

Incorrect. It is almost always correct to counter the card that would give the Belcher player four mana. This should nullify 3-4 cards in the Belcher player's hand, buying you enough time to find other cards to stop them. If you wait for a Belcher, you risk getting blown out by Empty the Warrens.

This is one of the few times it's better to counter the enabler than the threat.


Imagine the worse case scenario:
Burning Wish grabbing Overmaster to resolve Show & Tell.
Burning Wish grabbing Thoughtseize to remove your counter and resolve Show & Tell.

By not countering the enabler, your opponent has an uncounterable threat.

But in countering the enabler, you (likely) don't have a counterspell for the threat. Even if I did have two counterspells, I'd just use them on Overmaster/Thoughtseize and Show and Tell. The net benefit is that they've spent an extra mana and reduced future Burning Wish options.

If I only had one counterspell, I'd use it on the Overmaster or Thoughtseize for the reasons outlined above. I'd rather try to psych my opponent into thinking I have two counterspells than make it irrelevant/let him see and remove all doubt.


This all depends on how you plan on stopping the threat/enabler.

I guess if you're going to put in something like Oblivion Ring off their Show and Tell, it's better to counter the Burning Wish which could be getting an answer like Eye of Nowhere.

[dontbiteitholmes]

It depends almost entirely on the matchup. For example, against Belcher, it's almost always correct to counter the Belcher.

Says the guy who is about to die to 12 goblin tokens with a Force of Will in hand.

[Malchar]

Playing Burning Wish can very well be a trap do draw out a counter. In fact if they are already holding a S&T casting a Burning Wish is a win-win because if you counter it you are one counter down for the show down, if you don't counter it they get the overmaster and they are 1 protection up for the show down. In either case they are getting one step ahead :)

They aren't really "1 protection up" after casting burning wish. If they burning wish for overmaster, and then cast the overmaster followed by show and tell, you need two counters to stop them. If instead they wish for a second show and tell, you'll still need two counters to stop them. Burning wish is equal to a threat in itself. They don't have to resolve it for it to become a threat, so when they do cast a burning wish, they don't actually gain more threats, they're just trading one for another.

The important resource associated with burning wish is mana, not cards. If you wish for overmaster, you spend 2 mana and end up with the same number of threats. However, on the turn that you try to go off, now you have a duplicate threat (overmaster) that only costs 1 mana compared to 3 mana for show and tell. Now you can play 2 threats for 4 mana. If you had burning wished for another show and tell, you would have to have 6 mana to play both of those show and tells.

For this reason, it can actually be important to counter burning wish. If you know that they're getting overmaster, you should probably just counter the burning wish. It will make them waste 2 mana on this turn. If you wait and counter the overmaster, then you only made them waste 1 mana on that turn.

Here's another question, in what situations would you cast force of will on a dark ritual?

[xfxf]

Oh, that's a good question. I guess again it depends. Does it look like they have black mana to cast Duress before going off (or will they have it next turn) or does it look like they need Dark Ritual to resolve so they can Duress first and follow it up with more rituals to go off?

[Asthereal]

My general rules are as follows:

Against TES, TNT, ANT:
Burning Wish could get Empty the Warrens. That card has storm so it's only counterable by Stifle. When they try to go off, counter Burning Wish if you don't hold Stifle.
If they try a Burning Wish out of the blue, they could get protection. Counter it also.
If they play Infernal Tutor and are hellbent, counter Infernal Tutor (same reason as Burning Wish).
If they play Infernal Tutor and are not hellbent, they want to duplicate a card in hand. That card could be protection, or accelleration. Counter it if you have counters to spare. If you don't, wait for the protection spell, counter that and hope that he doesn't say 'Fuck it' and goes off anyway.
Always counter Ad Nauseam if they try one. Even if they are on 8 life. From 6 life you could gamble to let it go and hope it kills them, but they can still draw Petal, Petal, Ritual, LED, LED, Duress, Infernal and kill you with protection support. I've seen it happen, I've even had that luck once or twice.

Against Hive Mind:
Always counter Show and Tell, always counter Hive Mind. Seriously. Hive Mind on the board makes your game really awkward. You can never counter Pacts anymore since your counters get duplicated and counter your own counters back again. Stifle does still work though. Only thing that works under an active Hive Mind is to Stifle the Hive Mind trigger when they cast a Pact. The Stifle copy that goes on the stack because of Hive Mind will also just have one target to Stifle, so that's a pretty sure deal. Misdirections work awkwardly under Hive Mind. The copy goes off first, then the original can undo the work that the copy has just done.

Against SneakShow:
Sneak Attack may never enter the battlefield, unless you already have a safe way to never let it work (Pithing Needle on SA). Show and Tell must be countered at all times if you can. Burning Wish is a difficult one in this case. If they play those colours, they could get Thoughtseize. That one is harder to counter (costs a mana less, so Spell Pierce and Daze are worse). If they don't play black, you could let it go and see what they come up with. You really need to know what deck your opponent plays to make an informed decision here. As was mentioned earlier, Wish could be counter bait in this situation.

Against Reanimator:
Entombs and discard outlets are fine. Just stop the reanimation spells. If you Thoughtseize them turn one and see three reanimation spells and one Entomb, you of course take that one, but they usually only play 11 reanimation spells, so those should normally be your targets. I have never seen Burning Wish in Reanimator, but if they have it, it can get Thoughtseizes, Reanimation spells and more nasty stuff. Counter that Wish.

Against Dredge:
About 90% of a Dredge deck cannot be properly stopped by counterspells. Counter the discard outlets. All of them, if you can. That makes them slower for the draw-discard plan (less cards in hand, they'll have to wait more turns before it works, giving you free Time Walks). If you have a Spell Pierce that couldn't counter Putrid Imp so they still went rampage, just save it for Dread Return. They will have several zombie tokens, but at least they won't get the big nasty monster. There's always hope that Delvers get you there before the zombies finish you off.

[Malchar]

Here's another question, in what situations would you cast force of will on a dark ritual?

What if they're playing pox?

[xfxf]

This happened to me with Spiral Tide once. I FoWed a turn 1 Dark Ritual because I figured he's trying to go off turn 1 and if I let it he might also have discard. Turns out he can also cast a Hymn To Tourach on turn 2 and my hand is almost empty at this point. Misasignment costs games.

[Asthereal]

Against Belcher, the mana source that gets him to 4 mana is interesting to counter. If he has EtW in hands, he won't be able to play it then. Also Seething Songs are nice to counter. They have just invested 3 mana in the spell, and if it gets countered they lose a turn and a few cards.

I usually don't counter Dark Ritual.

[xeraseth]

Only thing that works under an active Hive Mind is to Stifle the Hive Mind trigger when they cast a Pact.
Thats a pretty sweet outline Asthereal, just a nit pick

Any creature based counter works too. Spellstutter Sprite and Venser are the two I can think of that are Legacy relevant.

[Esper3k]

Cursecatcher and taxing countermagics (if you have the mana to pay for them) are pretty good as well against Hive Mind.

[Asthereal]

Of course my list is incomplete. I just posted my general rules. :wink:

I sort of forgot about Spellstutter Sprite. That guy would obviously work under Hive Mind. Thing is, I haven't seen that dude in competitive Legacy for quite some time now.
Cursecatcher, I kind of presume one sees that dude coming and keep a mana open. :tongue:

Taxing counters can work, if you can pay for them yourself. But can is something else than will. And with a Hive Mind on the table, even pretty good players are prone to making mistakes. Even very good players I saw forget that the copy of a Flusterstorm doesn't storm, where the original does (copy is not played. just put on the stack, so no storm trigger happens). This is a good example of what errors you can make when Hive Mind hits the table. And believe me when I say that the Hive Mind player will have the experience and will capitalize on your errors. :frown: (No offense, Hive-guys!) So general rule stands: prevent that thing from entering the battlefield at virtually any cost.

[door]

I would counter burning wish. They usually play it a turn before playing show and tell. That means, that they have another turn to draw a counter before playing show. If you counter burning wish, they still can topdeck a counter, but there won't be a show and tell to protect.
If they want to get protection with wish, then you still need to counter wish. They want protection for a reason. The player is caucious, so he might not go off without protection and wait until he draws some (unless he gets killed soon or you have 0-2 cards in hand). That's a common strategy against blue decks without fast clock.
Sometimes they have protection and show and tell and they still play wish. In this case, it's just bad luck.

[Esper3k]

Of course my list is incomplete. I just posted my general rules. :wink:

I sort of forgot about Spellstutter Sprite. That guy would obviously work under Hive Mind. Thing is, I haven't seen that dude in competitive Legacy for quite some time now.
Cursecatcher, I kind of presume one sees that dude coming and keep a mana open. :tongue:

Taxing counters can work, if you can pay for them yourself. But can is something else than will. And with a Hive Mind on the table, even pretty good players are prone to making mistakes. Even very good players I saw forget that the copy of a Flusterstorm doesn't storm, where the original does (copy is not played. just put on the stack, so no storm trigger happens). This is a good example of what errors you can make when Hive Mind hits the table. And believe me when I say that the Hive Mind player will have the experience and will capitalize on your errors. :frown: (No offense, Hive-guys!) So general rule stands: prevent that thing from entering the battlefield at virtually any cost.

With Cursecatcher and similar effects, I wasn't talking about using them to hit the Show & Tell or Hive Mind, but to use it on your own copy of Pacts so you just counter your own copies.

[Final Fortune]

You counter the mana source that gives Belcher 3 mana or you die to Elvish Spirit Guide + Empty the Warrens.

[xfxf]

Here's another question, do you counter the High Tide?

[Final Fortune]

Here's another question, do you counter the High Tide?

Definitely, they can't win without it, and if you let it thru' they can resolve like 6 mana worth of stuff at least so they can just chain cantrips and meditates and break you etc.

[xfxf]

Not always.

This happened to me last night playing Spiral Tide. My hand is High Tide, High Tide, Turnabout, Time Spiral and I have four lands in play. I lead with High Tide, opponent counters it. I cast the second High Tide. Now with 2 remaining lands I cast Turnabout to untap all and go for Time Spiral -> Win. If the opponent kept his single FoW for the Time Spiral or the Turnabout I would be dead in the water.

[Vacrix]

Indeed. Countering High Tide isn't always the answer. Its really difficult to tell but if you pay attention to stuff like Peer through Depths or Cunning Wish, you might have a good idea of how many High Tides they have. Otherwise, things like what bilb_o described can happen. High Tide, even Remand on your High Tide and then go off on the next turn, Snapcaster Mage on HT (if you run into Solidarity in these cases that is). In general, its probably the safer route. If you let it resolve, Solidarity in particular can just respond to everything you do and then eventually counter the FoW/Pierce, etc. Pierce on HT is pretty good cause then they lose 4 mana if HT resolves. I mean these decks are slower because they are designed to beat control decks.. so usually unless a High Tide player is an idiot will he have a back up plan for a counter focus on HT.

[Esper3k]

You counter the mana source that gives Belcher 3 mana or you die to Elvish Spirit Guide + Empty the Warrens.

I think most of the time though if they're going to ESG + Empty, you're usually ok with that since the Goblin count will be lower.

[Asthereal]

With Cursecatcher and similar effects, I wasn't talking about using them to hit the Show & Tell or Hive Mind, but to use it on your own copy of Pacts so you just counter your own copies.
And then in response the Hive Mind player uses Pact of Negation on the copy of the Pact that you just tried to counter, so you still die. It's not a fail-proof strategy to try to counter a Pact copy like that. Hive Mind shouldn't enter the battlefield.

[Esper3k]

And then in response the Hive Mind player uses Pact of Negation on the copy of the Pact that you just tried to counter, so you still die. It's not a fail-proof strategy to try to counter a Pact copy like that. Hive Mind shouldn't enter the battlefield.

So that means they have to have 2 Pacts, which they don't always have.

Of course you try and stop Show & Tell / Hive Mind when you can, but you also don't always have the ability to counter Hive Mind / Show & Tell with a 1 mana taxing counterspell effect.

[Rico Suave]

What you counter is based in large part upon your strategy, your deck's goals, and timing.

If you are a very aggressive aggro-control deck, like Merfolk or the RUG Delver lists, then games often boil down to not how many cards your opponent has but how much mana they have available to cast their cards. In these instances, it is often best to wait until your opponent has tied up as much of their mana as possible with search and set-up before trying to fight over their attempts to win.

In other instances such as when playing a slower or more reactive control list, it is often best to pick a fight at your time of choosing - specifically when the opponent is at his weakest and is unable to defend (aka look at his available mana). For example if your opponent is playing Spell Pierce in his deck, and taps out on turn 2 to Burning Wish, it's probably a good idea to use your own Spell Pierce right then and there. The possibility of him untapping, playing an Ancient Tomb, and then cast Show and Tell with Spell Pierce back-up is frightening.

So here is a little guide:
1) Determine what is important
2) Pick a fight you know you can win (be active and aggressive in this regard)
3) Have the foresight to dodge fights you cannot win

Most people fail in step #1, for what it's worth.

[somethingdotdotdot]

For hive mind, wouldn't it be more reasonable to let the pact resolve and then stifle the pay or lose trigger? That way you get w/e pact effect as well as not lose the game.

[Koby]

For hive mind, wouldn't it be more reasonable to let the pact resolve and then stifle the pay or lose trigger? That way you get w/e pact effect as well as not lose the game.

Generally, most people can deal with a single pact. Rarely does Hive Mind players play a single pact and pass the turn. If you don't have knowledge of this, would you still let Hive Mind resolve?

[alderon666]

Sometimes when you have Daze or Spellpierce it might be wise to actually counter the Brainstorm. This is especially true when you have a clock deployed and they seem to miss their land drop.

I can't count the times I just kept a hand with just mana/business with just Brainstorm + fetch to fix it. I would just think to myself, if they counter this I lose the game. They NEVER do. It almost feels like Brainstorm had freaking Split Second. This is especially true when they mulligan and for decks that need critical mass of spells (Storm, High Tide).

[ThediscoPower]

Sometimes when you have Daze or Spellpierce it might be wise to actually counter the Brainstorm. This is especially true when you have a clock deployed and they seem to miss their land drop.

I can't count the times I just kept a hand with just mana/business with just Brainstorm + fetch to fix it. I would just think to myself, if they counter this I lose the game. They NEVER do. It almost feels like Brainstorm had freaking Split Second. This is especially true when they mulligan and for decks that need critical mass of spells (Storm, High Tide).

so true!! because of that, blind turn 1 therapies on brainstorm can be interesting, if you any of you are wondering about blind therapies targets.