Most significant 'new' set on legacy?

[Jenni]

I'm kinda curious about what recent sets (say, since Alara block) have had the biggest impact on legacy?
They've all added something to legacy, but I'm having trouble making up my mind which has had the largest impact. Was it avacyn's miracles? Zendikars new fetches? Phyrexia's equipments? worldwakes jace and mystic?
What do you lot think?

Personally, I think Jace and stoneforge - both from worldwake - might have made the biggest impact.

[John Cox]

Zendikar had a host of playables, from Spell Pierce and enemy fetches to Iona, Shield of Emeria , Mindbreak Trap, and Bloodghast.
I think it wins the prize.

[troopatroop]

Delver and Snapcaster

[Esper3k]

Zendikar and Alara block were both huge sets for Legacy. Of the two, I'd say Zendikar was still the bigger set although it's close.

[Koby]

Rise of Eldrazi had the most impact. How do I ascertain this?

It got Survival of the Fittest banned.
It still roars waves whenever you get Torn.
Inquisition of Kozilek.
Forked Bolt your mana dorks.
etc

[Greenpoe]

Innistad had a huge impact on Legacy: Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage are the big ones, plus Geist of Taft Saint, Liliana of the Veil, and for combo, Past in Flames. Oh, and Labratory Maniac has seen some play in Doomsday.

[Fizzeler]

Alara Block followed by Scars

Alara had a great impact on Legacy:
Knight Of The Reliquary
Path To Exile
Noble Hierarch
Progenitus
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Cascade mechanic
Master Of Etherium
Ethersworn Canonist
Conflux
Wild Nacatl
Qasali Pridemage
Sphinx Of The Steelwind

I am sure there are more (I have seen some Knight Of New Alara decks that float around), but it has had a great impact on Legacy

[John Cox]

Rise of Eldrazi had the most impact. How do I ascertain this?

It got Survival of the Fittest banned.
It still roars waves whenever you get Torn.
Inquisition of Kozilek.
Forked Bolt your mana dorks.
etc

Yeah LOL technically that set has put two cards within ban range.

[menace13]

I feel Ever since Mirrodin is where the change happened. Alara probably has the most cards for Legacy in any block from Mirrodin to now.I would rate them in order;
Alara
Scars
Zendikar
Innistrad
Lorwyn
Mirrodin
Time Spiral
Kamigawa
Coldsnap

[Barook]

New Phyrexia had quite some cards as well:

Batterskull
Dismember
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Gitaxian Probe
Gut Shot
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Mental Misstep
Phyrexian Metamorph
Surgical Extraction

To name just important ones, while there are some other cards as well.

[Koby]

I think Alpha had the biggest impact on Legacy, if we look back that far.

Swords to Plowshares
Lightning Bolt
Counterspell
Dark Ritual
basic lands

Half the Ban list appear from Alpha.
Clearly, it's overpowered.

[joemauer]

Homelands would have been the most broken set if they didn't print Apocalypse Chime to keep that broken set in check.

[lordofthepit]

Easily New Phyrexia.

Mental Misstep was the most played card during its run in Legacy and it's the only "new" card to be banned from Legacy. In fact, you'll have to go back to 2004 with Darksteel (Skullclamp) to see the next "newest" banned card.

Mental Misstep saw more play than Brainstorm. Brainstorm sees far more play than any two or three new cards put together. This includes the likes of Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage. I'd guess that Mental Misstep by itself sees more Legacy play in a given tournament than the entirety of Innistrad. (According to TCDecks for August: Brainstorm = 940; Delver = 336; Snapcaster Mage not in top 20, so fewer than 284).

If that weren't enough, consider that Surgical Extraction has been the most played sideboard card and the most played black card for just about every month since it's been released. Batterskull was found in every viable control deck since its release (until Avacyn Restored brought some goodies that allowed control decks to go in a different direction).

Add to that the likes of Elesh Norn, Jin-Gitaxias, Gitaxian Probe, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Dismember, all of which see decent play. In addition, Procelain Legionnaire, Noxious Revival, Spellskite, Vault Skirge, Gut Shot, Beast Within, Birthing Pod, and Torpor Orb have all seen occasional play, even if relatively little.

[UnsungHero]

Time Spiral Block had some nice stuff.

Bridge From Below
Nacromeba
Dread Return
=All 3 made Dredge what it is.
Tarmogoyf= raised the bar for low cost/high power creature, one of the most splashed creatures ever
Tombstalker=Very popular card for the old TA style decks
Serra Avenger/Mangara=Popular DnT Cards
Tolaria West=Lands Staple
Academy Ruins=Lands Staple,Frequently seen land card for blade decks
Empty The Warrens=Alternate Win Con For Storm

Not saying that TS block is the definitive game changing block, but it pretty much made the dredge archetype playable. And Goyf is still a great card in pretty much every format.

[Jacemindbreak]

I think Alpha had the biggest impact on Legacy, if we look back that far.

Swords to Plowshares
Lightning Bolt
Counterspell
Dark Ritual
basic lands

Half the Ban list appear from Alpha.
Clearly, it's overpowered.

I would say beta because you get an extra dual:wink:

[tonedown]

I would say beta because you get an extra dual:wink:

And a good one at that.

[LOurs]

By far Alara to me
knoght of reliquary
noble
quasali
nacatl
canonist
path to exile
elspeth
adnauseam
relic of progenitus
sigil of the empty throne
progenitus
pulse
Akroma's sphinx
tezzeret
thopter foundry
elvish visionnary
Master of etherium
conflux
…


the set defined a new Bant shell, provided a very powerful new storm engine, some good hates, some niche but useful cards, exalt & cascade mechanics (even if not that played in legacy, but they still appear sometime though).
Definitly the most impactful recent set to me because it feeded each strategy (combo / control / aggro) at almost the same level of potence, and really defined a new environment. As well there was really good cards in zendikar, mirrodin and innistrad, but still a bit less than alara did to me.

[phonics]

Well alara was a block so it was three sets not one.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Koby's argument is pretty compelling for RotE, although I think if we go by weight-per-card it has to be Conflux. For a small set you got these heavy hitters:

Noble Hierarch
Knight of the Reliquary
Path to Exile
Progenitus

+ the middling:

Hellspark Elemental
Inkwell Leviathan
Conflux
Sigil of the Empty Throne

And the borderline:

Banefire
Volcanic Fallout
Magister Sphinx
Parasitic Strix

[Koby]

Yay! Math and data!!
Top 20 played cards according to TCdecks (August):
1 Brainstorm 940 (IA)
2 Force of Will 876 (AL)
3 Wasteland 782 (TE)
4 Swords to Plowshares 642 (A)
5 Ponder 584 (LOR)
6 Spell Pierce 568 (ZEN)
7 Misty Rainforest 511 (ZEN)
8 Scalding Tarn 475 (ZEN)
9 Daze 434 (NE)
10 Lightning Bolt 423 (A)
11 Surgical Extraction 409 (NPH)
12 Flooded Strand 402 (ONS)
13 Volcanic Island 397 (B)
14 Polluted Delta 340 (ONS)
15 Delver of Secrets 336 (INN)
16 Submerge 314 (NE)
17 Stoneforge Mystic 301 (WWK)
18 Tropical Island 300 (A)
19 Tarmogoyf 291 (FS)
20 Tundra 284 (A)

Discounting the fetchlands as a cross-set phenomenon, since the highest played ones are Blue fetching anyway.

We see Alpha/Beta dual lands, cantrips, Force of Will and Wasteland.

Closer inspection of the top 20 reveals:

Row Labels Sum of #
A 1649
ZEN 986
IA 940
AL 876
WWK 869
TE 782
NE 748
ONS 742
LOR 584
NPH 409
B 397
INN 336
FS 291

If we eliminate fetchlands, this changes to become:
Row Labels Sum of #
A 1649
IA 940
AL 876
WWK 869
TE 782
NE 748
LOR 584
NPH 409
B 397
INN 336
FS 291

Suck it, told you it's Alpha.

[Vacrix]

If you want to go back a little farther...

Dissension block had quite an impact on Legacy.

Infernal Tutor - storm combo gets one of its best cards. It arguably forced certain card designs as well and was part of the reason Mystical Tutor got banned.
Protean Hulk - Got Flash banned, was the dominant combo deck for some time.
Spell Snare - Is still played, and more often lately.
Rakdos Pit Dragon - Dragon Stompy dominated the metagame for a minute, though Bloodmoon effects were more relevant than this guy. But he helped the deck get there.



EDIT:
Also, when it comes to the 'impact' of a set, a single card can influence an entire deck design, which pushes that deck over the edge a little or makes it playable, or makes its downright broken. Can you imagine storm combo without Infernal Tutor? Protean Hulk and Flash was the most ridiculous shit I think we've ever seen in Legacy.

When you look at cards like Swords to Plowshares, they are obvious staples but they don't necessarily influence the format in the same way that archetype changing cards like Infernal Tutor do.

[Koby]

Let's assume for the sake of a premise, that Swords to Plowshares didn't exist (and by extension Path to Exile). How different would Legacy's metagame become? Would reanimation effects become stonger? Would Scavenging Ooze be that much better than before? Would White, as a support color, even exist?

I think StP is such an important part of the fabric of Legacy that it has an impact, just not as pronounced or evident as Delver of Secrets does.

Even eliminating StP from the list, we still are left with Alpha in a close contention with Brainstorm (Ice Age). Just some food for thought.

[xeraseth]

Let's assume for the sake of a premise, that Swords to Plowshares didn't exist (and by extension Path to Exile). How different would Legacy's metagame become? Would reanimation effects become stonger? Would Scavenging Ooze be that much better than before? Would White, as a support color, even exist?

I think StP is such an important part of the fabric of Legacy that it has an impact, just not as pronounced or evident as Delver of Secrets does.

Even eliminating StP from the list, we still are left with Alpha in a close contention with Brainstorm (Ice Age). Just some food for thought.
Just going to point out the title
"Most significant 'new' set on legacy?"

[Koby]

Just going to point out the title
"Most significant 'new' set on legacy?"

I've already put some thoughts about that -
Rise of Eldrazi - got Survival banned, never saw Vengevine in action again.
WWK - Jace/SFM/Spell Pierce -by the numbers.

Zen block in general, even when you don't count the fetchlands.

[nedleeds]

Yay! Math and data!!
Top 20 played cards according to TCdecks (August):
1 Brainstorm 940 (IA)


LOL @ Brainstorm doesn't merit banning ... :laugh:

[(nameless one)]

I think this thread is misleading. The title should be "Most Significant Modern Set on Legacy", so it only counts Mirrodin onwards.

[nedleeds]

If you want to go back a little farther...

Dissension block had quite an impact on Legacy.


Disagree strongly.

[Vacrix]

Disagree strongly.
Care to elaborate?


How? Hulk Flash was THE deck to beat of its day. Protean Hulk warped the format and created the most broken deck that Legacy has seen in a LONG time if not ever. It was to my knowledge the fastest combo deck that could also play Force of Will.

Infernal Tutor facilitated IGG loop and more recently Ad Nauseam into your win. Without it, Storm combo wouldn't exist. Its arguably more important than Ad Nauseam because storm combo existed and performed well without AdN. Without Infernal Tutor, we wouldn't have seen the millions hate bears that WotC printed to try to hose storm combo. Thalia? Teeg? Flusterstorm? These are format staples. I don't think we'd have seen these cards if it hadn't been for Infernal Tutor. IT forced wizards into developing specific cards. After they printed Ad Nauseam, the card wouldn't be nearly as broken if IT wasn't printed. It lets you save deck space and have a lower avg. cc. Granted, Entomb in Reanimator contributed to a different kind of Mystical Tutor shenanigans; however, sideboards were really tight because you couldn't port the same kind of hate from the Storm matchup to the Reanimator matchup. I think MT would have gotten banned anyway but it probably would have taken longer.

Rakados Pit Dragon was often played as a 4'of and was often the fastest clock the deck could muster. Granted this was in an era where Bloodmoon effects were REALLY good so it took the format by surprise, but still the rise of Dragon Stompy is one of the factors that led to people running basics and being more careful with their mana bases. Without Pit Dragon, Dragon Stompy would have trouble being a deck because Arc Slogger and Flame Tongue Kavu were too slow and small compared to Goyf. Granted, later the deck got Molten Steel Dragon and Gathan Raiders but still Pit Dragon is one of the best creatures in the deck and few lists left him out (often for something like Phyrexian Revoker).

Spell Snare... I need not explain. Its a format staple that got played for quite a long time til the advent of Spell Pierce. However, people are picking it up again.




If you take a look at Conflux, which seemed like the best choice to me for the more recent sets.

I think if we go by weight-per-card it has to be Conflux. For a small set you got these heavy hitters:

Noble Hierarch
Knight of the Reliquary
Path to Exile
Progenitus

+ the middling:

Hellspark Elemental
Inkwell Leviathan
Conflux
Sigil of the Empty Throne

And the borderline:

Banefire
Volcanic Fallout
Magister Sphinx
Parasitic Strix
These are all great cards that see play, namely Hierarch and KoTR, but they didn't warp the metagame as intensely as IT or Protean Hulk. Conflux made Dream Halls (and more recently Omniscience) a thing but there are plenty of SnT variants and its not like SnT would die if Conflux wasn't around. I think the same can be said of Hierarch and KoTR. They are fantastic cards but Maverick would still exist, it just wouldn't be as good. I attribute most of the success of Maverick to GSZ and Thalia. KoTR would be next in line but when you look at cards like Scavenging Ooze and Pridemage, KoTR isn't always your best choice. Its a fat guy but GSZ's strength is that it can grab whatever you need whether it be Dryad Arbor for acceleration, Teeg/QPM for specific matchups, Ooze, etc. Also, Thalia gave the deck a fantastic control angle that slows down control decks and shuts down storm combo. Progenitals was good for a minute for sure when Natural Order was the shit. NO Countertop was dominant for a while. KoTR and Hierarch are played in Maverick which is the current dominant deck.

Still... I see Hulk and IT being way more format warping. I mean they created archetypes that resulted in bannings. When it comes to 'a set having the most impact on legacy', cards that result in bannings have more impact than format staples no?

Now if you want to talk about the long term, than format staples like KoTR and Hierarch are arguably more important. If this is the case though, then I think there is probably a different set with more staples than Conflux.

[Awaclus]

LOL @ Brainstorm doesn't merit banning ... :laugh:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16948609/banbrainstorm.png

On topic:

Dissension was a very significant set. Nowadays, with Flash banned, Dissension isn't very significant.

Koby: Thanks for the statistics, they saved me a lot of time. You've accidentally included Spell Pierce in Worldwake's number of cards that have made the top20, though. This is what it should look like after eliminating the fetchlands:


Row Labels Sum of #
A 1649
IA 940
AL 876
TE 782
NE 748
LOR 584
ZEN 568
NPH 409
B 397
INN 336
WWK 301

According to this, Lorwyn is the most played new set in Legacy. I think that Zendikar is still more significant than Lorwyn, because Pierce is more significant than Ponder. Ponder only improves your deck, so you have to run it if you want to make use of its existence. Pierce, on the other hand, also makes other decks worse - if enough people run it, combo decks will be less prevalent in the meta, which you can exploit by running an aggro deck. In other words, you don't have to run Pierce to make use of its existence, and that's why the number of Pierces is lower than the number of Ponders in the statistics.

[menace13]

Not an all exhaustive list, but close.

Mirrodin block(great)
5th Dawn
Cranial
Magma Jet
Crucible
Shackles
Trinket Mage
Explosives

Darksteel
Blinkmoth
Vial
Clamp(banned, but we all know it's good)
E. truth
SoF/I
SoL/S

Mirrodin
Cloudpost
Spellbombs
Scepter
Greaves
Belcher
Thoughtcast
Slogger
Triskelion
Platinum Angel
Chalice

Kamigawa block(meh)
Saviors of Kami
Manriki
Erayo
Kataki
Ideas Unbound
Ideal

Betrayers of Kami
Jitte
Kira
Threads


Champions of Kami
Boseiju
Glimpse
Desperate Ritual
Gifts
Night of Souls'
Through the Breach
Petals of Insight

Ravnica block(meh).
Dissension
Infernal
Trygon
Snare
Hulk

Guildpact
Angel of Despair
Leyline of the Void
Repeal

Ravnica
Darkblast
Bob
Golgari Thug
Life from the Loam
Stinkweed
Flame-Kin
Grave-Troll
Archon
Chrod of Calling


Coldsnap.
Rite of Flame
Dark Depths
Couterbalance

Time Spiral block(pretty good)
Future Sight
Salvage
Arbor
Grove
Canopy
Tolaria West
Pacts
Sword of the Meek
Jailer
Goyf
Moeba
Glittering Wish
magus Moon
Aven
Bridge Below
Tombstalker
Goyfie

Planar Chaos.
Small Sb cards and EDH
Nodes
Extirpate
Sulfur Elemental
Simian
Body Double

Timeshifted
Crypt
Gmstone


Time Spiral
Ruins
Vision
Ancient Grudge
Smallpox
Serra Avenger
Dread Return
Wipeaway
Mangara
Empty Warrens

Lorwyn block.(great)
Eventide
Raven's Crime
Nettle Sentinel

Shadowmoor
Cursecatcher
FInks
Firespout
Wheel Sun/Moon

Morningtide
Mutavault
Blossom
Crusher
Clique

Lorwyn
Thoguhtseize
Silvergill
Teeg
Spellstutter
Reejery
O-Ring
Doran
Ponder

Shards of Alara block(excellent)
Shards
Relic
Nacatl
Visionary
Cannonist
Sculler
Rhox
Wolly
Charms
Ad Naus
Rafiq

Conflux
Noble
Strix
KotR
Fallout
Conflux
Inkwell
Progenitus

Alara Reborn
Thopter Foundry
Pridemage
Pulse
Sphinx

Zendiakr block(awesome) Side note; I dont draft, but this looks like the fastest draft format evar?
Rise of
Inquisiton
Coralhelm
Venge
Emrakul

Worldwake
Bog
Loam Lion
Mystic
Jace

Zendikar
Goblin Guide
Lynx
Pierce
Punishing Fire
Ghast
Traps
DoJudgement
Sphinx of Lost truths
Iona

Scars block(amaze)
New Phyrexia
Probe
Misstep
Surgical
Gut Shot
Dismember
Battrskull
Elesh'Jin

Mirrodin Besieged
Inkmoth
Revoker
Go for Throat
SoF/F
Thrun
Tezz 2
Zeniths

Scars Mirrodin
Etched Cahmpion
Ezuri
hellkite

Innistrad block
Avacyn Restored
Miracles
Griselbrand

Dark Ascension
Cage
Looting
Scour
Thalia
Souls

Innistrad
Delver
Snapcaster
Lab Maniac
Liliana
Geist
Past inFlames

[Awaclus]

Zendiakr block(awesome) Side note; I dont draft, but this looks like the fastest draft format evar?
Actually, it's two formats. Worldwake and Zendikar were drafted together and Rise of the Eldrazi was drafted alone.
EDIT:

He's right in thinking that ZEN/ZEN/WWK was an extremely fast format though
I'm not denying that. And for sure it was also even faster than ZEN/WWK/ROE would have been.

[kombatkiwi]

Actually, it's two formats. Worldwake and Zendikar were drafted together and Rise of the Eldrazi was drafted alone.

He's right in thinking that ZEN/ZEN/WWK was an extremely fast format though

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

These are all great cards that see play, namely Hierarch and KoTR, but they didn't warp the metagame as intensely as IT or Protean Hulk. Conflux made Dream Halls (and more recently Omniscience) a thing but there are plenty of SnT variants and its not like SnT would die if Conflux wasn't around. I think the same can be said of Hierarch and KoTR. They are fantastic cards but Maverick would still exist, it just wouldn't be as good. I attribute most of the success of Maverick to GSZ and Thalia. KoTR would be next in line but when you look at cards like Scavenging Ooze and Pridemage, KoTR isn't always your best choice. Its a fat guy but GSZ's strength is that it can grab whatever you need whether it be Dryad Arbor for acceleration, Teeg/QPM for specific matchups, Ooze, etc. Also, Thalia gave the deck a fantastic control angle that slows down control decks and shuts down storm combo. Progenitals was good for a minute for sure when Natural Order was the shit. NO Countertop was dominant for a while. KoTR and Hierarch are played in Maverick which is the current dominant deck.

Still... I see Hulk and IT being way more format warping. I mean they created archetypes that resulted in bannings. When it comes to 'a set having the most impact on legacy', cards that result in bannings have more impact than format staples no?

Now if you want to talk about the long term, than format staples like KoTR and Hierarch are arguably more important. If this is the case though, then I think there is probably a different set with more staples than Conflux.

Infernal Tutor didn't really lead directly to anything being banned. MT's banning, besides being a mistake, was also triggered by Reanimator, which didn't run it.

Conversely, Maverick is all over the place now (NORug was dominant last Summe,) and I don't agree that the deck would be remotely playable without Knight and Hierarch. It's hard to argue that the deck's success relies on Thalia when it was winning tournaments before Thalia came along. Knight is the deck's best card, except maybe GSZ which is great partly because it can grab KotR.