u/b deaths shadow

[metronome2charisma]

u/b death's shadow
death's shadow is a tempo deck that wants to make a large deaths shadow asap.how it does this is playing spells like thoughtseize, gitaxian probe, dismember/snuffout and force of will while fetching up watery grave . the reason the deck is good is that deaths shadow outclasses kotr and goyf very fast and the closer you get to dying the bigger he gets
this deck uses hymn to tourach to great effect. spellsnare is seeing less and less play rite now so it makes it a little easier to resolve against anyone playing blue and as i'm sure everyone knows "hymn ,hymn, i win" is still very true against most of the decks running around the meta
the life loss really isn't a huge issue alot of the times becasue against anything that wants to stick a threat and ride it to victory they will be very annoyed to have to chump block a 11/11 with a 5/6 goyf. because no matter what the opp. life total they cant really afford to get hit with a big shadow more than a couple times..and against combo most of the time it dosn't matter if you're at 20 or 1 when they "combo out"
delver of secrets still gets you free wins..sometimes a couple delvers is all you need to do.
snapcaster mage with mutagenic growth is awesome..especially with a delver and shadow on board(which happens often enough) sometimes being able to deal 6 that they didn't know was coming while leaving a blocker assuming they take the damage and it can do this on turn 2-3 for massive damage.
thoughtseize is really good and anyone that wants to play this deck probly wants to be playing them anyway....same with hymn. my deck list is not optimal i'm sure but i know it can win games against u/w top, rug and bug control..
the cards not in my list
bob ..hes in some builds i would just rather use snapcater for my card advantage.
baleful strix.-i have thought about this guy just never tested him..don't really know how or where he fits in this deck.
gut shot- could find its way into the 75..
treachorus pit-dweller- this guy seems nuts in the rite deck and i think he could have a home here but havn't tested this theory out yet.:rolleyes:

i think the deck is fun and has way more game than most people have been giving it credit for .:cool:
the core of the deck is made up of

4 delver
4 deaths shadow
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 snuffout/dismember
4 thoughtseize

after that its pretty open to whatever kind of game you want the deck to play..strix and bob are a little slower as snapcaster and souleater are a little faster..but its up to you ..here what i have been playing for a minute its fun but i think it could be better.test it out its better than it looks

4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Immolating Souleater
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Dismember
1 Dispel
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Mutagenic Growth
1 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Watery Grave

no sideboard yet as i'm really just starting to test the maindeck..there are a few out there floating around ..none of them i can really comment on besides the obvious..

[metronome2charisma]

i know i'm gunna get flamed for running souleater..

[Koby]

Here's some more lists for this archetype: Link to MTGstats (http://www.mtgstats.com/ArchetypeCardDetail.aspx?IsMainDeck=True&TournamentSubFormatID=9&CardID=554)

This list is more representative of the recent deck:
// Critters
4 Dark Confidant
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets

// Removal
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
3 Snuff Out

// Disruption
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

// Digging
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top

// Counters
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

// Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Watery Grave
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sample Sideboard
1 Darkblast
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Dread of Night
1 Duress
1 Engineered Plague
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Umezawa's Jitte

There's probably a lot of work we can do to streamline the SB plan that won't clutter it to be "removal, yard hard, etc".

Questions to answer:
Which matchups does this deck do well against?
Which matchups does this deck do poor against?

[metronome2charisma]

Here's some more lists for this archetype: Link to MTGstats (http://www.mtgstats.com/ArchetypeCardDetail.aspx?IsMainDeck=True&TournamentSubFormatID=9&CardID=554)

This list is more representative of the recent deck:
// Critters
4 Dark Confidant
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets

// Removal
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
3 Snuff Out

// Disruption
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

// Digging
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top

// Counters
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

// Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Watery Grave
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sample Sideboard
1 Darkblast
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Dread of Night
1 Duress
1 Engineered Plague
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Umezawa's Jitte

There's probably a lot of work we can do to streamline the SB plan that won't clutter it to be "removal, yard hard, etc".

Questions to answer:
Which matchups does this deck do well against?
Which matchups does this deck do poor against?

thanks for the feedback/help i know my decklist isn't stock but some stock choices seemed odd to me..as i'm sure some of my choices seem odd.sam black is running a list closer to mine but its still off by 7-8 cards..
as far as what its match up percentages are i don't know but i will be doing more testing here soon and anyone with more info/testing is more than welcome to post it.

[Koby]

Please use capitalization in your posts. It goes a long way to make them readable.

I question the inclusion of Mutagenic Growth in the list. It's low impact and strictly "win-more" in the deck. Dismember too is suspect at 3 copies. At this point, any Phyrexian mana spell will act as a Mutagenic Growth, so it's pointless to run more. Dismember is likely unneeded compared to Snuff Out which doesn't care about the size - large or small, and can be cast for 0 mana. Since this is a tempo oriented deck, every reduction in mana is important.

[metronome2charisma]

Mutagenic growth is really my biggest flex spot and i'm sure it could be something else better.
I'm running more dismembers because being able to cast it with mana and not life is sometimes helpfull in not dying and it give you the same life lose as snuffout in the early game..and i think it works better with snapcaster mage.(which i think is going to end up in the deck over bob when the deck is optimizedand mainstream(ish))
Sorry about the caps.
Also berserk seems really good in a deck like this..i could be wrong ..

[xfxf]

This is certainly a very interesting deck and it interacts very strangely with removal like Lightning Bolt AND Swords to Plowshares. However the suicide strategy seems a little vulnerable to sweepers like Terminus and Engineered Explosives. Still, I think post-RtR if graveyard hate starts pushing RUG Delver down to lower tiers it has the potential to replace it as the tempo deck of the format.

[metronome2charisma]

Yeah those cards are problems but most of the time your dirsuption makes those things take much longer to happen. and i agree this deck is VERY close to being VERY playable
Stifle out of the board makes all the sweepers mentioned plus deed wosre and if u/w sees more play than it is now(which it seems like it will) stifle isn't a bad option to shut them down.

[Vacrix]

You're definitely going to want Phyrexian Unlife. Its the only way I've gotten cards that contribute to so much life loss to be playable. Either you get Shadow to beat face quickly, or you get Unlife to save your ass for a few turns first.

[metronome2charisma]

I really dont think phyrexian unlife is needed but it did cross my mind..and then left very fast.The deck really does work well.Have you played it? If you have premium starcity Sam black did a mtgo daily with it ,you can see it in action there.

[xfxf]

I was curious about Phyrexian Life as well in the lists I saw. Playing just 2 of them, and them being the only white cards in the deck, is it possible to be reliably cast them when needed? Also is it really good enough to gain a couple additional turns considering that some decks can just alpha strike you for 10 damage easily.

[Vacrix]

I really dont think phyrexian unlife is needed but it did cross my mind..and then left very fast.The deck really does work well.Have you played it? If you have premium starcity Sam black did a mtgo daily with it ,you can see it in action there.
Yes I have. All of a sudden you play against any deck with Lightning Bolt and you're a fish in a barrel. Its a terrible deck without it because UGr Thresh is one of the dominant archetypes right now.

The deck needs to figure out another way around life loss. Personally I tried doing something like Angel's Grace and Snapcaster Mage but it seemed to unreliable.. and you need to play something like Ghastly Demise instead of Snuff Out if you want to recast it with SCM. Either way, I didn't like it but its uncounterable, unlike Unlife, and you can re use it through Spell Pierce due to SCM.

[Koby]

There's Jitte in the SB to have some off-set lifegain. Once Shadow gets to 4/4 (9 life) it's pretty much a race to win. I'm going to put this list together and test vs RUG, but I'm guessing the favor is with RUG right now (and based upon SCG LA camera match too).

[metronome2charisma]

Do you have a decklist of the deck you played/are playing? i'm interested to see what you have going on.

[xfxf]

Vacrix, you have to watch the feature match from last SCG open. Death's Shadow vs. RUG. Lightning Bolt isn't as horrible as it seems. Actually it's so strange that most of the times if you can't actually kill the UB deck, the Death's Shadow grows to an incredible size and you end up eating your bolt so you just hold back.. Once the card hits play it basically forces you to either alpha strike or to have multiple blockers to deal with it while you chip away from their life total.

Edit: Btw in that feature match RUG wins the first game fair and square. In the second game makes a stupid mistake and hands the game to Death's Shadow player in the final turn. On the third game Death's Shadow player has the kill on the board but figures he can't win and scoops for nothing. So the games aren't really in RUG's favor, it's just very tricky.

[Vacrix]

Can you link to it? I played a bunch of matches with it against a friend and everytime I won it was because he wasn't able to get there with reach either because I stayed above 6 and made sure to keep his creature off the board, etc. Also, UR Tempo is much more difficult than UGr Thresh. We played both, I forgot. UR THASHED this deck even with Phyrexian Unlife while UGr had a better than even game plan.

[Michael Keller]

I wonder how good something like Lurking Evil would be in this deck.

[John Cox]

Has anyone tried phyrexian metamorph and porcelain legionnaire in something like this?

[Vacrix]

Lurking Evil seems legit at first glance but halving your lifetotal will only work then if you play Phyrexian Unlife. Otherwise all the other cards in your deck are going to make it really difficult to stay above 0. Lurking Evil was pretty cool in a more aggressive build but its not worth 10 life if you want to also play a control game with stuff like Snuff Out, Thoughtseize, Force, etc. Then your life total becomes a resource rather than something you want to shrink ASAP.

Also, note that with Phyrexian Unlife on the field, you can basically one shot your opponent with Death's Shadow. Your life total can get far below 0.

[metronome2charisma]

Rite now i'm using the souleater with the shadow to "one shot them" i mean realisticaly its only like 15 damage but most of the time thats good enough when you have a 10/10 to attack with next turn

[somethingdotdotdot]

Once you're at 0 life, you can no longer pay life. I suppose thoughtseize and confidant would get you into the negative regions, but you can't even use fow anymore.

[death]

Has anyone considered Mirror Universe in this type of deck? I mean, as a backup plan, it's unlikely that they'll have an answer to it when they're not expecting.. Seems good.

[Vacrix]

Phyrexian Unlife is good because you can keep paying life, not because it grants you a virtual +10 life. Losing life isn't the same thing as damage. Damage is dealt as poison counters but life loss just makes your life total further less than 0. So Thoughtseize and Confidant, Snuff Out etc. can still be played so that you retain the advantage.

[death]

On a more serious note, it even gets better when you're at negative life, like -10 for example, Death's Shadow's P/T will actually be 23/23.

4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Scrubland
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Dark Confidant
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Immolating Souleater
3 Phyrexian Metamorph

4 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Dismember
4 Night's Whisper
4 Phyrexian Unlife

So, what do you guys think?

[Koby]

Phyrexian Unlife is good because you can keep paying life, not because it grants you a virtual +10 life. Losing life isn't the same thing as damage. Damage is dealt as poison counters but life loss just makes your life total further less than 0. So Thoughtseize and Confidant, Snuff Out etc. can still be played so that you retain the advantage.

You cannot make life payments greater than your life total. Going to zero life will shut off Force of Will, fetchlands, and Snuff Out.

[Final Fortune]

Can we please stop discussing Phyrexian Unlife as if it were actually a playable card in a competitive deck, thanks.

I've seen variants of Shadow of Death.dec in Russia where the previous Russian Legacy Nationals deck was a U/b Delver of Secrets and Tombstalker based aggro-control deck, and I believe the logic is/was that Shadow of Death and life loss effects can essentially turn the deck into a "Team America" of sorts by replacing Tarmogoyf. It's popular mainly because it doesn't use any Underground Seas in favor of Watery Graves so it's a budget friendly aggro-control deck compared to RUG.

As I remember, it went

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thought Seize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Death's Shadow
4 Snuff Out

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Watery Grave
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Dismember
4 Spell Pierce

You should probably try to avoid Gitaxian Probe because in terms of information gathering it's redundant and even tho' it helps reach your "Threshold" for Tombstalker and Death's Shadow the card doesn't actually serve a function in the deck by itself, where Force of Will, Thought Seize, Snuff Out and Watery Grave are all necessary components of the deck.

Even tho it's a lot of potential dead cards in some match ups, I think there's some merrit in playing the full set of Snuff Out and Dismember MD instead of Hymn to Tourach. Other potential MD choices are Plunge into Darkness, which is my personal favorite because it's essentially the best enabler and tutor for Death's Shadow all in one, or Night Whispers as less of an "all in" card than Pluge into Darkness. Personally I think Hymn to Tourach is kind of overkill in terms of disruption, but I can't deny its effectiveness. Likewise I'm not certain if I prefer Snuff Out or Dismember main, because even tho' Snuff Out is technically better in terms of tempo, this deck isn't tempo in the sense that Tarmogoyf is tempo so you don't mind paying 1 mana early and you may want to be able to control your overall life loss by paying parts of its total casting cost later in the game.

Dark Confident is a really bad card in this deck, uncontrolled life loss will just kill you unexpectedly, and you have to be able to maintain your life total once you've reduce it to ~6. Being afraid of Lightning Bolt and playing "Angel's Grace" effects is really stupid, just play more cards that protect you from your opponent's threats and have tertiary uses, Misdirection is pretty good at that.

I wouldn't call it optimized, but it's pretty straightforward. I haven't played with Snapcasters, but they seem pretty reasonable albeit sluggish.

[xfxf]

@Vacrix,

here's the link to the feature match:

http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-la-lgc-rnd-4-gregory-hatch-vs-jason-abong-6359746

A very exciting game and I think a good example of how the match-up with RUG would go.

[Asthereal]

You really want Sylvan Library in a deck like this.
Not sure you can squeeze it in because it's green, but still.

[xfxf]

Why do you need Library when you can have life loss and card advantage in black with Dark Confidant.

[metronome2charisma]

splashing green wouldn't be a problem but i think first we have to decide on the first 50 cards or so and then worry about minor meta changes and what not.Sam blacks' list looked something like this..


Artifact Creatures
4 Baleful Strix

Creatures
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
1 Snuff Out
1 Spell Pierce

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte




Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Watery Grave


Sideboard:

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Counterspell
1 Dismember
2 Gut Shot
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Jace Beleren
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

and by "something like this " i mean."this is wht it is"
I think running jace in an 18 land deck is 100% wrong but if i was gunna do that i'de run 2 jace and 1 more land and 86 2 strix..i'm not even sure if 19 land is enough(i really dont think so) .
I agree that snap caster is where this deck wants to be as far as bob vs. snapcaster goes..snapcaster let you choose what cards you're "getting" as apposed to just cards of the top...i love me some confidant but snapcaster is just WAY better in this deck..i don't think four is the rite number .
strix is interesting and serves as a cantrip and removal of sorts but really i don't understand why you would want to flip your delver less in a deck that wants to flip delver for the cantriping flier..I could see strixx as a 2 of against rug or mavrick but not maindeck. The reason being that it deals with anything in maverick(assuming mom isn't a problem) and it deals with mongoose and delver and goyf like a champ( then again so does shadow)
also if i was gunna run more duals than the one or two underground sea and the watery grave i would run 2 darkslick shores over the last two seas just as choke protection because that is a HUGE problem for this deck if resolved and if you put it into play tapped turn 4 it dosn't really matter anyway because just like rug this deck can operate on 2-3 lands just fine.
Wasteland should be at least a three of..i mean come on we're playing daze in a tempo deck.Wastland is where we want to be ..i think 4 is rite..
Phyrexian unlife does not belong in a legacy tempo deck

I think i'm going to give this a try and then get back to you guys..

4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 immolating souleater
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
1 Snuff Out
2 s.d.t
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn


1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Watery grave

[metronome2charisma]

Why do you need Library when you can have life loss and card advantage in black with Dark Confidant.

It may not be needed but it is definately not wrong to consider it especially when some people aren't on bob ..i like snapcaster over bob in this deck
:cool:

[Asthereal]

When I tried a Death's Shadow list in BG colors, I played both. Four Bobs and three Libraries gave a lot of card advantage while killing myself to a point where Shadows would do the trick. I stopped trying when I died to a Lightning Bolt five times in a row even though I was drawing god hands.

[xfxf]

Looks like 5-6 life is the lowest point you should go so that you'll still have life to fetch or to FoW after facing a bolt. I think that's why Sam Black cut bob from the list, because with Bob you can't control nor stop your life loss. With Snapcaster you have better control over it.

[metronome2charisma]

Looks like 5-6 life is the lowest point you should go so that you'll still have life to fetch or to FoW after facing a bolt. I think that's why Sam Black cut bob from the list, because with Bob you can't control nor stop your life loss. With Snapcaster you have better control over it.

This is the main reason i like snapcaster mage. I even thought about playing a two two split of cabal therepy/ thoughtseize with bob to kill it when i didn't want it,or it was gunna kill me...Snapcaster is just better at what we're trying to do,i think.
Your assesment is spot on about everything by the way..

[JDK]

Still, I think post-RtR if graveyard hate starts pushing RUG Delver down to lower tiers it has the potential to replace it as the tempo deck of the format.

Keep dreaming. ;)

[metronome2charisma]

Gerry t playing bug deaths shadow against A.J.Sacher playing u/b "control" with delver..

[JDK]

Gerry t playing bug deaths shadow against A.J.Sacher playing u/b "control" with delver..

5 Sacher, AJ 12 62.50%
117 Thompson, Gerry 6 87.50%

[Vacrix]

@Vacrix,

here's the link to the feature match:

http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-la-lgc-rnd-4-gregory-hatch-vs-jason-abong-6359746

A very exciting game and I think a good example of how the match-up with RUG would go.Its definitely a sick match to watch but it looked like RUG had the upper hand basically the entire time. He won game 1, made the simplest play mistake in game 2, and then the other guy conceded in game 3. In general, it looks like the RUG player will have the upper hand especially if UB Shadow Tempo becomes an established archetype instead of a deck thats doing well under the radar.

[metronome2charisma]

I think i'm playing cabal therepy over hymn

[Vacrix]

I wonder if Deathrite Shaman can fit in here.

Shaman is bad shit insane against Reanimator and Dredge. This shuts down Goyfs, KoTR, Snapcaster, Goose, Lingering Souls, Loam, Ooze, Punishing Fire, IGG/PIF.. the list goes on. Its a solid 1 drop to do better than trading with Lackey, and it holds a Jitte. I think one of the main reasons though is that it helps you gain life to soften the life total problem a bit, as well as providing reach outside of the combat step to close on your opponent's life total. It seems like it has a lot of applications, including allow you to Daze and still have mana to play a Hymn on turn 2, or turn 2 play around Daze, etc.

I figure it will help in the following matchups:
RUG (Goyf, Goose, eat Lavamancer food, and keep you in a safe life total from Burn)
UR Delver (Snapcaster, Lavamancer, Burn)
Dredge (hit their Dredgers)
Reanimator (hit their creatures)
Blade control (Snapcaster, Lingering Souls)
Miracle Control (Snapcaster)
Maverick (KOTR, Ooze)
Goblins (stop Lackey)
Loam variants (stop Loam and empty the yard of lands)
Burn (soften your life total if it gets too low from Burn, but this matchup is probably a bye for them anyway)


It doesn't help against Merfolk, Show and Tell, or Death and Taxes except as a mana dork provided you hit your fetchlands. But I think its so good in the other matchups outside of being manadork that its worth running. Its really not a manadork, its solid anti-grave tech that has other applications.

[xfxf]

I've seen Gerry's deck tech for the BUG version yesterday but I'm not convinced the deck really needs green. In his list basically he replaces Confidants with Goyfs and Ponders with Sylvan library. Replacing Hymns with Cabal Therapy on the other hand could be interesting.

[metronome2charisma]

I've seen Gerry's deck tech for the BUG version yesterday but I'm not convinced the deck really needs green. In his list basically he replaces Confidants with Goyfs and Ponders with Sylvan library. Replacing Hymns with Cabal Therapy on the other hand could be interesting.

The way i look at it is that therepy with snapcaster mage(because you get a card back from the snapcaster then you sack it to therepy) is like a hymn but you get to pick the cards and you're already playing with thoughtseize and probe so why wouldn't you play 4 more thoughtseize that are easier to pay for...
Green i think really does work in this deck..splash for 2 sylvans and mongoose or goyf or Scavenging ooze( i think mongoose) because deaths shadow is this decks goyf and we need something they cant just swords or path or bolt or gftt and goose fits the bill..
IF i ran green i would also run a single life from the loam...
In my build the green dosn't replace bob becasue i run snapcaster.. in all honesty i know that one of the cards getting the boot would be a force(only running three with the 4th in the board)
I don't think deathrite shaman is rite for THIS deck but i have a set preordered because that card is INSANE nuts good in legacy...scavenging ooze is a forty dollar rare this guy will be ten bucks at least considering he WILL see play in standard control decks fuck maybe even in zombies for the mirror..

[xfxf]

I'm testing the following list:

4x Death's Shadow
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage

4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy

2x Dismember
2x Snuff Out
1x Diabolic Edict

1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Underground Sea
2x Watery Grave
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs

The SCM-Probe-Therapy trio seems vicious. I tested the deck against RUG, UR Delver, High Tide and Merfolk. Even against RUG and UR I don't think the deck is on the back foot. Once you go down to 8 life your opp. will be mostly emtpy handed and if you are able to land a Death's Shadow in that late game they will have a very hard time making that alpha strike with an empty hand. Every bolt coming short a kill will be returned as a faster clock. Also against combo, this much discard plus counter are more than enough.

Against Merfolk if you can make them discard their lords early enough or hit them with removal before things go out of hand you can push ahead with a Delver or take over the late game with a huge Death's Shadow. Basically the trick is making your opponent go on topdeck mode for threats by the time you are at 8 life and then take over with Death's Shadow.

I'm yet to test it against UW decks but increased amount of discard coupled with SCM is a very effective early game strategy.

[Final Fortune]

I think you guys are running too much disruption and too few threats when you play with stuff like Snapcaster, Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy packages, getting Shadow of Death RFGed with Swords to Plowshares is a pretty huge set back, and having the additional beat stick in Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker gives you a little more longevity.

[xfxf]

In fact getting Death's Shadow rfg'ed gains you back all the life loss so means you have used all those thoughtseizes without drawbacks. The strategy is to push with 1 or 2 threats just like RUG so it doesn't really matter if you have a Delver or a second Shadow that's pushing after the StP. However 4 StP + 3 Terminus is indeed a problem because SCM isn't really a threat itself and 8 actual threats could be very light in some matchups.

[GradStudentGuy]

I have been playing this deck a bit. But have been running two Gut Shots main and have been loving it. Its basically a free giant growth or spot removal against maverick and a bunch of other decks. Best part is that you don't need to splash into a third color to play it.

[Hanni]

I seen several posts that mentioned "one-shotting" people with Death's Shadow, and growing him to 23/23, etc. I skimmed through and didn't see anyone mention it, but... how are you legally making Death's Shadow larger than a 13/13, exactly?

[Mr. Safety]

I know that was a retorical question, but the answer is 'they aren't getting it bigger than 13/13, unless they are using Phyrexian Unlife.'

I think the deck is janky, but solid. Decks that race are really making your Death's Shadow bigger...but then its just a well timed Swords/Path and you're sunk. Path seems unfair against this deck, I mean what would you do with a spare land? Not much with so many free/1-cc spells. I think the deck would really benefit from Standstill...but at that point why not play Dreadstill? I have a friend that is destroying his local scene with U/r Dreadstill. He plays Delvers, burn, Forces, etc...basically U/r delver but with a Stifle-Nought package. Really solid deck.

I think this deck gets owned by anything stompy-related (turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Trinisphere, gg?) and the miracle control lists are getting a swords to plowshares without life gain with Terminus. Isn't miracles using Counterbalance again, too? Seems like a bad matchup. I also think that aggro/tempo builds like this tend to fall flat without the burn. I can't imagine this deck being better than traditional naya zoo and that isn't in contention right now (and its faster with more reach.)

Just some thoughts...I may be talking out of my ass, but there you go...

[Hanni]

I know that was a retorical question, but the answer is 'they aren't getting it bigger than 13/13, unless they are using Phyrexian Unlife.'

How? Regardless if going into negative life, how will it get any larger than 13/13? The creature is a 13/13 creature that gets -X/-X from your life total. At lower than 0 life, does the negative life total use algebra to turn the -X/-X clause into +X/+X? That seems a bit odd from a card design standpoint (albeit logical mathematically).

[TraxDaMax]

I was thinking about Cabal Therapy too when I saw Thoughtseize and G.Probe.
A card that might help the Cabal Therapy package, and provide lifeloss is Bitterblossom.
Don't know if it helps though.

[Final Fortune]

In fact getting Death's Shadow rfg'ed gains you back all the life loss so means you have used all those thoughtseizes without drawbacks. The strategy is to push with 1 or 2 threats just like RUG so it doesn't really matter if you have a Delver or a second Shadow that's pushing after the StP. However 4 StP + 3 Terminus is indeed a problem because SCM isn't really a threat itself and 8 actual threats could be very light in some matchups.

No, losing life to cast Thoughtseize or Snuff Out isn't an issue to begin with, all you care about is losing life in order to facilitate your Death's Shadow, and once you gain life you have to lose life all over again in order to turn him into a threat. Vs. Control based decks it's a serious problem.

[xfxf]

There's a slight trick here about your lifeloss and losing a Death's Shadow to StP. Yes the deck wants to be at low life for Death's Shadow to be big, however when it gets removed you gain all the life back so you are not a sitting duck at a very low life total until you find another. It just becomes a tempo loss. You start losing life again (and the deck has a lot of ways to do that) until you find another Death's Shadow to land. If you have two of them on board however that's a pretty bad blow as you lose both of them.

[Final Fortune]

I think it's another reason to take a look at /g, between Tarmogoyf adding 4 threats to the deck, Sylvan Library lets you turn their STPs into card advantage while reducing your life total to empower the next Death's Shadow.

[gkraigher]

Isn't nights whisper great in this deck.

[Kyle]

I've been digging GerryT's original decklist. It's fun, unexpected (right now), and can be super-effective. Don't forget to use Brainstorm and Ponder to help your topdecks, otherwise you'll find you're killing yourself quite a bit due to the Confidants.

And for obvious reasons, this deck has major problems against just about every black deck unless you can get Hymn + Thoughtseize online right away.

[Mr. Safety]

How? Regardless if going into negative life, how will it get any larger than 13/13? The creature is a 13/13 creature that gets -X/-X from your life total. At lower than 0 life, does the negative life total use algebra to turn the -X/-X clause into +X/+X? That seems a bit odd from a card design standpoint (albeit logical mathematically).

You're right, it can only be a 13/13...my math skills, along with my common sense, seem to be failing me...

It seems to me that at that point it should be attack for 13, Rite of Consumption ftw.

[Mr. Safety]

Isn't nights whisper great in this deck.

Sign in Blood is better, I think...but there shouldn't be ANY REASON to avoid Dark Confidant. *Not* using Bob seems foolish.

[lochlan]

You're right, it can only be a 13/13

This is incorrect. Read the rulings, guys!

From gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198372):

If your life total is less than 0 and an effect (such as the one from an opponent's Abyssal Persecutor) is keeping you from losing the game, Death's Shadow's ability will actually increase its power and toughness. For example, if your life total is -2, Death's Shadow gets +2/+2.

[Vacrix]

This is incorrect. Read the rulings, guys!

From gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198372):
Exactly. Thats what I was saying earlier, though not with the ruling.
Also, note that with Phyrexian Unlife on the field, you can basically one shot your opponent with Death's Shadow. Your life total can get far below 0.

The advantages of Phyrexian Unlife is that you can keep paying life for all of your spells without having to do something suboptimal like hard cast Snuff Out for 4. That makes the spell shitty once you're ahead. So the deck is really good at getting ahead and then it can't play a bunch of its spells if you choose not to play Unlife. Basically you are trying to get to the point where you can play Unlife that way you can pay as much life as you want, therefore keeping the advantage of amazing free/undercosted spells including while also holding onto the advantage of Confidant to overwhelm your opponent with resources... while having a virtual +10 life to soak up whatever damage your opponents might sneak through. THEN the other advantage is basically having a Marit Lage-token-sized Death Shadow that hits for lethal. You can think of Death's Shadow in the UB builds as a huge creature when you get ahead by putting yourself at a vulnerable life total (to reach at least), or in UBw you can think of it as a huge, extremely undercosted, pass-the-turn, win condition.

EDIT:
This is actually why I was moving toward a build that plays Dismembers and Snapcaster over Delvers and Snuff Outs (though also a few copies of Snuff Out). You don't need to be aggressive early. You want to play as much control as possible, lay down Unlife to secure your position and then find Death's Shadow.

[Namida]

Exactly. Thats what I was saying earlier, though not with the ruling.

The advantages of Phyrexian Unlife is that you can keep paying life for all of your spells without having to do something suboptimal like hard cast Snuff Out for 4.

Note that you can't pay life you don't have, so Snuff Out is still suboptimal if you have 3 or less life.

[Vacrix]

Note that you can't pay life you don't have, so Snuff Out is still suboptimal if you have 3 or less life.Indeed. In which case wouldn't Dismember be better or does it suffer the same problem? Thoughtseize and Confidant would still be playable. Either way I think that Dismember is going to be better once you are far ahead and at low life because its easier to cast a removal spell for 3 than 4.


EDIT:
Also, it might be worth looking at cards like Cruel Bargain and Infernal Contract as card advantage. Namely in builds playing Unlife. I played it a while back on Cockatrice as a 1 and 2 of and it sets you really far ahead.

[lochlan]

Indeed. In which case wouldn't Dismember be better or does it suffer the same problem?

It's still paying life.


107.4f Phyrexian mana symbols are colored mana symbols: {W/P} is white, {U/P} is blue, {B/P} is black, {R/P} is red, and {G/P} is green. A Phyrexian mana symbol represents a cost that can be paid either with one mana of its color or by paying 2 life.

[metronome2charisma]

I really think this works better as a bug deck. or at least has a little better mid game.
Been thinking about how many sylvans to run cuz you only ever wanna see one really but you really wanna see that one..

[Final Fortune]

Sign in Blood is better, I think...but there shouldn't be ANY REASON to avoid Dark Confidant. *Not* using Bob seems foolish.

Why the hell would a card with a more restrictive mana cast, and that can be Misdirected to your opponent, be better than Night's Whispers?

You've got it the other way around when it comes to playing Dark Confident, uncontrolled life loss is kind of a "problem" in a deck that hangs around at ~7 life.

@Sylvan Library

Eh, I'd just run 4 until you have a reason not to, the card is pretty fucking broken and I think it falls into that "Counterbalance" category of a card that's completely terrible in multiples but unbelievably awesome when you do resolve a single copy. I mean even just with Delver, it has a really significant impact.

@Removal

I prefer Dismember to Snuff Out in the MD, having more control over your life loss is more important than having a free spell fwiw.

[claudio.r]

I'm currently loving this deck. It plays the tempo style that i love with a cool, under the radar finisher. What i'm trying to do right now is to have a build that can take out the shadows after board and play a tempo style Delver type of deck. This is because some people are already aware of this deck and will play accordingly, saving their burn so they can burn you out and leaving the removal open for shadows. If after board we can "switch" to a non shadow build it will make people make bad decisions when playing against you. What are your opinions on this?

[TraxDaMax]

Thinking red might gives us help for this deck. Just a untested list that looks alright on paper, don't know how it plays out.



4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Flame Rift
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
2 Forked Bolt
2 Ponder
2 Price of Progress
4 Thoughtseize

4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn

[Vacrix]

Flame Rift doesn't seem bad at first glance but as reach its way better in Burn. If you draw it when you want reach its not going to do what you want it to do.

[TraxDaMax]

Flame Rift doesn't seem bad at first glance but as reach its way better in Burn. If you draw it when you want reach its not going to do what you want it to do.

At worst it could be used as fodder for Nivmagus Elemental was my assumption.

Don't know how good it is, but it seemed pretty sweet with Death's Shadow.
At 12 life we could play Death's Shadow, being 1/1 and next turn cast Flame Rift giving it +4/+4 and doing 4 dmg to the opponent. That's 8 damage with one spell.
Same thing with Price of Progress. I would stick 2 side for match ups with lots of non basics and you'd be doing the same type of thing but then instant speed. Need to test it still though.


edit: After goldfishing it does feel a little awkward still.

[nevilshute]

Is anyone still tinkering around with this deck? I think it seems great fun. Just ordered the cards I was missing to play it. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Skeletal Scrying. It seems tailor made for this deck as long as you're not overly reliant on your GY. I'm not playing scm so the only card I don't want out of my GY is my 2x Cabal Therapy which shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Here's the list I'm going to try out:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Death's Shadow
3x Dark Confidant

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
2x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Skeletal Scrying
2x Dismember
2x Snuff Out

4x Wasteland
4x Underground Sea
2x Watery Grave
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand

[TraxDaMax]

Is anyone still tinkering around with this deck? I think it seems great fun. Just ordered the cards I was missing to play it. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Skeletal Scrying. It seems tailor made for this deck as long as you're not overly reliant on your GY. I'm not playing scm so the only card I don't want out of my GY is my 2x Cabal Therapy which shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Here's the list I'm going to try out:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Death's Shadow
3x Dark Confidant

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
2x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Skeletal Scrying
2x Dismember
2x Snuff Out

4x Wasteland
4x Underground Sea
2x Watery Grave
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand

As much as I love Skeletal Scrying, I don't see it being anything major in a tempo deck. I mean if you could cast if for x=3 you would have 4 lands in play and you should have won by then.

[nevilshute]

I see what you mean, though I still intend to try it out with 2 of 'em :)

It's easy to lose sight of how little mana a deck like this needs to work off of :)

[Final Fortune]

Is anyone still tinkering around with this deck? I think it seems great fun. Just ordered the cards I was missing to play it. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Skeletal Scrying. It seems tailor made for this deck as long as you're not overly reliant on your GY. I'm not playing scm so the only card I don't want out of my GY is my 2x Cabal Therapy which shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Here's the list I'm going to try out:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Death's Shadow
3x Dark Confidant

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
2x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Skeletal Scrying
2x Dismember
2x Snuff Out

4x Wasteland
4x Underground Sea
2x Watery Grave
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand

I play it on a regular basis, I think you'll find cards like Night's Whispers and Skeletal Scrying not as good as you'd think, compared to Dismember, Gitaxian Probe and to a lesser extent Snuff Out the deck really wants cards that can reduce its life total but don't have to reduce its life total once its low. Thought Seize aside, I find what makes Dismember better than Snuff Out, Gitaxian Probe worthwhile and Watery Grave better than Underground Sea is that they all give you controllable life loss.

Dark Confident is not ok in this deck, you will either not be able to reduce your life total when you turn over lands or you will kill yourself when you can't control the cards you turn over. There's a reason Gerry T plays Snapcaster instead of Dark Confident in his deck, and it's because Snapcaster does a much better job of controlling your life loss thru' recurring the Thought Seize, Gitaxian Probe or Snuff Out etc.

With Gitaxian Probe in the deck, I think it's kind of a shame not to play Tombstalker

[Barook]

I recently a very interesting Monoblack variant of this deck.

The main twist was that it ran tons of mana accelerants - Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox AND Mox Diamond - and 4 copies each of Infernal Contract and Cruel Bargain to compensate for that. The amount of of card advantage and mana it could churn out was rather impressive.

The sad thing about it was that the rest of deck was rather poorly constructed - tons of 1 mana discard and Probe, but no Cabal Therapy, the inclusion of Doomsday with 2 Death's Shadow as only wincon and folding in general to Chalice for 1.

With alternate wincons like Tombstalker or even Phyrexian Obliterator (the deck should easily be able to afford it) and more fine-tuning, it might actually become pretty solid - the core engine of the deck looked very strong.

[TraxDaMax]

This sunday someone got 1st out of 49 at our Legacy scene.

1. Bart Gielen

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Death's Shadow
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thoughtseize
2 Snuff Out
2 Ponder
2 Hymn to tourach
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict

2 Underground Sea
2 Watery Grave
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Darkslick Shores

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Darkblast
1 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dread of Night
3 Perish
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus

[jtos84]

I was wondering if you guys have seen my list in the evagreen forum? I got the idea from seeing Gerry Thompson's decklist. I didn't post it in here because there is no blue init, but I think we have the same goal in mind. I used more dscard instead of blue because I was wanted the chance to take out threats turn one and two with discard instead of waiting for them to be cast. this also alows me to use green which really resembles the old evegreen build. It does run death's shadow. I you want check it out in the evagreen forum. There has been intense debate over it. If you want I can post the list, but I won't do some thing like that until it is okay'd.

[metronome2charisma]

so this is the list i am playing as of now..its really good against miracles(really good)

3 deaths shadow
4 delver
3 deathrite shaman
2 snapcaster
1 scavenging ooze
13

3 sylvan library
1 lilliana
4

3 abrupy decay
3 thoughtsieze
1 inquisition
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
2 hymn
2 dismember
1 snuffout
2 spellpeirce
4 daze
1 life from the loam
24

2 underground sea
2 bayou
2 trop
1 watery grave
1 polluted delta
4 misty
3 verd cata.
4 wasteland
19


1 flusterstorm
2 surgical
1 creeping tarpit
4 force of will
2 e.e.
3 jace beleren
1 thoughtsieze
15

low land count and shaman make dazeing less probematic than it would be without( we have a higher curve than rug delver)
because of shaman and ooze library drawing three isn't as dangerous as it could be ..selective filtering and drawing all at the same cost as bob but harder to deal with sounds awesome ..it is...well hurricanes here and i dont wanna lose this so i'm just gunna post and let you guys ask questions if you have em..

[SirTylerGalt]

Gerry Thompson had a really interesting U/B tempo deck in his latest SCG article. It adds Nivmagus Elemental to the U/B Death's Shadow shell. Since it's a premium article, I won't repost the decklist here, but it's worth looking at if you have an SCG Premium membership:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25283_Three-Formats-Six-Decklists.html

I think the free spells (Gitaxian Probe, Snuff Out) complement Nivmagus Elemental very well, since we often want to play many spells at once for the Nivmagus + Flusterstorm combo.

Josh Cho just won 2-0 against BUG Delver with the deck in a video feature match at SCG Legacy Open Baltimore, so the decklist might be published later on if it gets into TOP8.

Edit:

Deck tech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdHD2rztxEI

Edit again:

Decklist: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51247

[twndomn]

Josh wrote an article about his deck and his run at SCG Legacy

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25321_UB-Nivmagus-Primer.html