UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

[Darkenslight]

Influenced by this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24904-Eternal-Europe-Impressions-From-The-City.html) over as SCG, I began looking into this combo.

How it works:

With Rest in Peace in play, no card can hit the graveyard. With Helm of Obedience, the process repeats until X cards hit the graveyard. So, when you use the Helm, seeing as the "card in graveyard" condition is not met, the process repeats to exile your opponent's library.

Decklist:

Provided here is a basic decklist for the concept:

Lands:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Plains
4 Island
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Combo:

4 Rest in Peace
4 Helm of Obedience

Spells:

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Energy Field
4 Force of Will
2 Remand
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Gilded Light
4 Ponder
4 meta slot

SB:

4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Flusterstorm
4 Pithing Needle

Thoughts and critiques are, as always, appreciated.

NB: I'm not sure if Daze would be a batter card for the deck, with such a low curve. I know that's it's almost cold to a Chalice@1 main, and I'm not sure what to do about that.

[xfxf]

With the development of this deck I just want to make a reminder saying that Energy Field doesn't protect you from "lose life" spells like Tendrils of Agony. So I think the Storm matchup should be kept in mind as well or the possible Tendrils coming in from the board of Omniscience. So we should try to see if the deck can find and execute its combo as fast as said decks, or if it has adequate protection against such decks.

[K-Run]

Web of Inertia becomes interesting with Rest in Peace in play.

[gkraigher]

Wheel of Sun and Moon in your sideboard is not correct.

It should be leyline of the void. This deck could have existed for years already. If you played Blue/Black with Planar Void instead of Rest in Peace. That starcity article looks like one that is designed to sell cards for them.

[nedleeds]

Wheel of Sun and Moon in your sideboard is not correct.

It should be leyline of the void. This deck could have existed for years already. If you played Blue/Black with Planar Void instead of Rest in Peace. That starcity article looks like one that is designed to sell cards for them.


Read Planar Void. Learn Magic the Gathering. Then get back to us.

[Darkenslight]

Wheel of Sun and Moon in your sideboard is not correct.

It should be leyline of the void. This deck could have existed for years already. If you played Blue/Black with Planar Void instead of Rest in Peace. That starcity article looks like one that is designed to sell cards for them.

Planar Void is triggered: Leyline is a replacement effect. The Wheel is an alternative to assist with Energy Field, and you can enchant yourself so that you never get milled, due to the Replacement Effect rules, so that you can still have no damage taken.

I do, however, agree that it's probably not correct. I was looking at Solitary Confinement or Greater Auramancy as possibilities in that slot.

[.dk]

Head Planar Void isn't a replacement effect like RIP and Leyline... anyway...

I don't think running 4 Helm's is correct when you can have access to them with enlightened tutor. I was thinking of more of a control shell like this:


4 enlightened tutor
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Force of Will
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ancestral Vision


Obviously not sure on ALL of those (may want more Swords main, and Detention Sphere or Supreme Verdict in the board) - but seems like you can stall enough to get energy field down, RIP, and tutor for helm. Having 4 Helms just takes up SO much space when you can easily tutor for it.

My take anyway.

[Koby]

Why wouldn't this deck play Counterbalance? It's already playing with Etutor and could easily play Top for more filtering.

[.dk]

Why wouldn't this deck play Counterbalance? It's already playing with Etutor and could easily play Top for more filtering.

One of the other lists I had jotted down ran 1 CB main, along with 3 tops. Probably depends on how insane Abrupt Decay becomes as to whether it is in the main, or the sideboard since it is SO good in some matchups

[Koby]

One of the other lists I had jotted down ran 1 CB main, along with 3 tops. Probably depends on how insane Abrupt Decay becomes as to whether it is in the main, or the sideboard since it is SO good in some matchups

Abrupt Decay is strong, no doubt. But its strict color requirement will limit its play to AT MOST 15% of the decks in Legacy. CB/top is still a solid lock against RUG and Burn and Combo etc.

[.dk]

Abrupt Decay is strong, no doubt. But its strict color requirement will limit its play to AT MOST 15% of the decks in Legacy. CB/top is still a solid lock against RUG and Burn and Combo etc.

Seems reasonable, yeah. Maybe in my list, cut the Supreme Verdicts for 1 more Swords and 1 Counterbalance. Although that list might be a little heavy on 2 drops for a Counterbalance curve. Will have to get testing, I suppose...

[Freggle]

Using my current version of :ug: enchatress I have created an enchantress version of a RiP / Helm deck here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24692-Developmental-Enchantress-with-Rest-In-Peace-Helm&p=674608#post674608). I felt the enchantress approach was different enough to warrant it's own thread in lieu of derailing this one. Stop over if you care.

[Barook]

For what it's worth, I would definitely run O-Ring/Detention Sphere as E-Tutor target, probably even an EE. Stuff like Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker and Gaddock Teeg ruin you.

That said, what about alternate win conditions? Either Jace or something else.

[metronome2charisma]

Why would this deck run remand over spell peirce?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Wheel of Sun and Moon in your sideboard is not correct.

It should be leyline of the void. This deck could have existed for years already. If you played Blue/Black with Planar Void instead of Rest in Peace. That starcity article looks like one that is designed to sell cards for them.

Yeah, clearly I only wrote that article because the thing I care most about is how to sell cards for SCG. They also send me weekly updates of cards they don't manage to sell as many of as they'd like to just so I write something that'll make people buy those.

As to more enjoyable topics:

Why wouldn't this deck play Counterbalance? It's already playing with Etutor and could easily play Top for more filtering.
Check my list from the article linked above :p

@K-Run: I think Energy Field is probably enough and much better to draw than Web of Inertia when you don't yet have a RIP (you can still buy multiple turns with it, especially if you're only Fetching basics so they can't Wasteland you). It also opens you up to dieing to the RIP-trigger getting Stifled.

@Darkenslight: Your list is an interesting approach for a more combo-focused version. Not sure if going for a fast kill is worth it, though, given that E-Field/RIP already stops most aggressive decks dead and that you'll just always be slower than other combo-decks just because helm costs five.
Your meta-slots should always include a Needle, an ORing/Detention Sphere and a Humility imo. Needle and Humility will allow you to lock out the few probable MD answers like Pridemage, EE and Deed (often one of these is the only answer a lot of decks have to Field/RIP in the MD). ORing is just necessary to deal with Planeswalkers and Show and Tell, I think, and one of the better outs to Teeg (which in your current list is just GG as long as your opponent has more cards in his deck than you do).

Gilded Light seems pointless in your list (why not run more countermagic?) and Remand is questionable, one of the 1-cost counters or even Daze should just be better.

@.dk: Not sure what you'd need Verdict for. If you lock them, you don't need a Wrath and Verdict doesn't even work as an out for Teeg. Porphyry Nodes seems like it would be good in this deck, though. Eats up whatever is hanging around in front of the EField in case they draw an out and will deal with Teeg eventually so you can Helm them.

@Barook: I agree that this needs some form of alternate wincon, though Jace has been surprisingly bad so far (other than when I was hiding behind Ensnaring Bridge). I've actually started to consider a singleton Luminarch Ascension - good against control, tutorable, drops through Teeg and combos with EField even before you have a RIP.

[.dk]

@.dk: Not sure what you'd need Verdict for. If you lock them, you don't need a Wrath and Verdict doesn't even work as an out for Teeg. Porphyry Nodes seems like it would be good in this deck, though. Eats up whatever is hanging around in front of the EField in case they draw an out and will deal with Teeg eventually so you can Helm them.


Yeah, you're absolutely right. Those 2 Verdicts should probably be 1 Counterbalance and 1 Swords. I'm not sure Porphyry Nodes is needed maindeck if you are running Shackles, though. You can easily steal Teeg and swing it into their creatures as well. Seems like potentially a good sideboard option against SnT decks, however, since E-field doesn't get around Annhilator triggers.

[Griselpuff]

I've been playing this list to some success:

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [UNH] Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa

// Spells
3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
1 [TE] Humility
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
2 [US] Energy Field
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [RTR] Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Removal
SB: 1 [MM] Energy Flux
SB: 4 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity

I'm definitely thinking of making tweaks, as it's quite soft to Teeg + MOM. (Maybe Porphyry Nodes?) It's phenomenal against graveyard decks, so I see no need for LotV. It's also a killer against Show and Tell since you can tutor for detention spheres. Energy Field also stops a lot of aggro decks cold. This deck definitely has potential, but does require a fair bit of work as well.

[Darkenslight]

@Darkenslight: Your list is an interesting approach for a more combo-focused version. Not sure if going for a fast kill is worth it, though, given that E-Field/RIP already stops most aggressive decks dead and that you'll just always be slower than other combo-decks just because helm costs five.
Your meta-slots should always include a Needle, an ORing/Detention Sphere and a Humility imo. Needle and Humility will allow you to lock out the few probable MD answers like Pridemage, EE and Deed (often one of these is the only answer a lot of decks have to Field/RIP in the MD). ORing is just necessary to deal with Planeswalkers and Show and Tell, I think, and one of the better outs to Teeg (which in your current list is just GG as long as your opponent has more cards in his deck than you do).

Gilded Light seems pointless in your list (why not run more countermagic?) and Remand is questionable, one of the 1-cost counters or even Daze should just be better.

Hence why I wasn't 100% on the list, and the fact that it was a basic list: The Remands could easily become Orings or Journey to Nowhere.

The main reason for Remands (and I was willing to be overruled on this) was because you're more interested in the delaying aspect of Remand than the one-turn setback that Daze involves. In my build, it's pretty important to make your land drops. In an Enchantress shell, it's somewhat less important, as you have access to cards like Utopia Sprawl. I was looking at the possibility of the new Keyrunes as a potential ramp/creature hybrid.

The Gilded lights are there mostly for the countering of Tendrils, which is why I recommended Confinement as a SB slot. Also, the Lights aren't completely dead in other matchups: for example, most people are playing discard (from Dredge to BUG Delver to Nic Fit). The cycling allows me to pitch it for another card in a pinch, which can occasionally be relevant.

[gkraigher]

deleted

[gkraigher]

deleted

[Hanni]

I'm not sure why you aren't running both Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void, if your combo is based around the interaction with Helm of the Leyline. 8/4 pieces for assembling the combo is more consistent than 4/4, and it gives you some serious gravehate against the majority of the format. I mean seriously, I can't think of very many decks these days that don't use their graveyard in at least some way.

Although I suppose if you're going alot heavier on the Board Control plan and plan to play the long and grindy game until you assemble you're combo, you might not need as many combo pieces. My only concern at that point would be: why not just play a better Control deck (Miracles) that has two different I-Win cards that don't actually need to combo together to win (Entreat and Jace)?

Also, mana acceleration is pretty mandatory for this combo to even be worth it. At least with an opening Leyline, you're looking at a 2 card 4 mana combo. With RIP, you become a 2 card 6 mana combo. Mox Diamond + Land Tax could be interesting, but the Sol Lands work too.

[(nameless one)]

Don't you have to pay at least 1 to activate Helm of Obedience?

[kusumoto]

Don't you have to pay at least 1 to activate Helm of Obedience?

Yes

[Pelikanudo]

@ghkreiger

Hi!
I'm the ebayer I bought you the 3 helms!

@ Rest
I'm thinking on 2 archetypes if not 3 of this deck:

- Control Shell, as the Article of Starcity games, not bad designed deck. Still testing.

- Combo Oriented with city of traitors Lands and more acceleration

- In Parfait, this new build I'm focus still did not have a proper win cond, now it has.

I suggest to visit that Threat Deck Parfait.
I at least will definately run that combo in Parfait but by the moment 1 - 1 and 4 E. Tutors.

About c.b.:
I would not recommend running c.b. if it is not strictly neccessary, sure running 4 senseis and e.tutor is great, but you'll find that:
Nic Fit, UBG, The New Black Canadian, TES and Combo Archetypes includidng green for that splash will now crash you with c.b.
So the way will be playing more hard counters in the form of c.s.

Pure Control as Stanstill always had 2 main problems: Burn and Recursion, problems solved via Cunning mainly or Good Side,
Cunterbalance prevents this, however the Control rol can now be reinvented, going into a Pure Control Role (via hard counters instead of c.b. ) going well vs recursion (because of Rest) and still having a way to get Silver Bullets, Via E.Tutor. etc, etc.

All these are just thinkings, however I have to test all this Balance, No balance, Combo Oreinted, etc...

By the moment a 1 - 1 In Parfait is key, All I can say.

[Technics]

Just found this thread (Thanks Tao) and figured I would share what I think is the most optimal list so far:


// Lands
1 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 Terminus
4 Rest In Peace
4 Helm of Obedience
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Spell Pierce
1 Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Vedalken Shackles
SB: 4 Energy Field
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring


This still needs work (auromancy in SB?) but i would feel comfortable taking to to a tourney tomorrow if i had it ready. It has been incredibly strong, and with tops, and all the shuffles I have had games where i drop 5-6 combo pieces no problem when fighting through hate.

[Darkenslight]

Just found this thread (Thanks Tao) and figured I would share what I think is the most optimal list so far:


// Lands
1 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 Terminus
4 Rest In Peace
4 Helm of Obedience
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Spell Pierce
1 Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Vedalken Shackles
SB: 4 Energy Field
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring


This still needs work (auromancy in SB?) but i would feel comfortable taking to to a tourney tomorrow if i had it ready. It has been incredibly strong, and with tops, and all the shuffles I have had games where i drop 5-6 combo pieces no problem when fighting through hate.

Thanks for that list, Technics! The only thing I'd suggest is the possibility of Stifle over Snare or Pierce. I also think that CB, while useful, isn't the right card for this deck, on account of the vast majority being 1 CMC, which hits mostly discard and Hierarchs (with the notable exception being Elves!)

Note: the problem with CB isn't that it's a powerful card. It is. It's just much more a meta call than it was. If you're in a heavy Storm/Elves meta, then sure, go ahead. If you're in a Dredge/Merfolk-heavy meta, then it'll be much less useful.

[xfxf]

Played a match with this list against RUG, quick observations. Terminus feels like it could have been better as an Energy Field. You need that slot to gain time against aggro. Energy Field is easier to cast than Terminus (less mana intensive considering the setting up). Also the manabase felt a little shaky. I think it needs more lands and more basics.

[Freggle]

If you want to make this a control deck I would look at this deck (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22350_Legacy_Top_8_At_SCG_Open_Cincinnati_With_Athens_Blue.html) as a tested basis.

[Pelikanudo]

Just found this thread (Thanks Tao) and figured I would share what I think is the most optimal list so far:


// Lands
1 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 Terminus
4 Rest In Peace
4 Helm of Obedience
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Spell Pierce
1 Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Vedalken Shackles
SB: 4 Energy Field
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring


This still needs work (auromancy in SB?) but i would feel comfortable taking to to a tourney tomorrow if i had it ready. It has been incredibly strong, and with tops, and all the shuffles I have had games where i drop 5-6 combo pieces no problem when fighting through hate.

Rergarding to the list I think it has some lear mistakes:
this decks it is shut up by a resolved teeg, simple, we can't afford this.
Also swords should belong to the main, I would add some more jace (I'd like to see in can afford 4 main. we need c.a.!) and I'd like to discuss the number of e.tutor combo pieces in the control shell.
I think the most optimal is:
4 e.tutor
3 R. In peace
2 Helm.

Next I think I will play
3 senseis
3 Terminus
4 swords

Regarding the Counters Package:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 FoW
at least is a must

4 c.b. seems to be the norm as well, but at this point I will change the number of c.b. accordingly to hard counters and/or more key cards for E.Tutor and/or snapcasters. Still not sure.

And as playing 4 E. Tutors 3 should be the cards we should play at least:
1 Humilty
1 Moat
1 The New Great Oblivion Ring - this makes the puzzle vs Teeg in conjuntion with swords
1 Maybe E.E. not sure if neccesary

That what I've been thinking, the deck from starcity is the nearest idea in my opinion about what I intend on a control shell.
Reference to Control Shell:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24904-Eternal-Europe-Impressions-From-The-City.html

[maiko1993]

hello guys, i liked very much the idea of the deck, because its a fair combo that can be played at any time and kill from nowhere. and all of that with FoW protection. its a really powerful idea.

but i think that we cant be like Miracle Control and sit there waiting our combo. we need to go very fast if required, kinda like Hive Mind or Omni-Tell.

[Darkenslight]

After giving it further thought, I've coem to the conclusion that this list:



Lands:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Plains
4 Island
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Combo:

4 Rest in Peace
4 Helm of Obedience

Spells:

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Energy Field
4 Force of Will
2 Remand
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Gilded Light
4 Ponder
4 meta slot

SB:

4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Flusterstorm
4 Pithing Needle

is wrong. The Gilded Lights have been surprisingly relevant. Perordain, however, have been remarkably underwelming, as have the Remands. I think that we only really need 2 of Helm, which opens us up for a slightly more toolbos approach. With this in mind, the changes I've made are:

-2 Helm of Obedience
-2 Remand
-4 Preordain

+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Powder Keg
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Detention Sphere
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph
+2 other (Possibly Supression Field)

SB:

-1 Pithing Needle
+1 Vendilion Clique.

[ReinVos]

I do think it's a good idea to work with the Top/Counterbalance package. I think this could be an improved version of CounterThopter. The Thopter combo takes up time and mana, this combo just kills you immediately.

This makes Enlightened Tutor a better card because it helps assemble two combos and makes it much easier to assemble one of two combos in the early turns in some matchups.

It's nice to have a good plan vs. Show and Tell decks. Resolve a RIP, get Helm in hand and leave one mana open. Omniscience can't get around you. Petals kill won't work and the extra Emrakul turn kills them.The same has happened to Omni players who were facing Belcher, where they lose when the belcher player gets access to using three mana without casting any more spells and they have a Charbelcher in hand.

A Counterbalance deck needs a good curve for countering stuff. There are plenty of one drops with Tutor, Brainstorm, Swords and Top. Counterbalance and RIP on two. I would try a couple of Counterspells for rounding out the two drops and having more hard counters. Then add some Cliques and maybe a good artifact like Ensnaring Bridge to search up, which you can also put on top of your deck for CB. 2 Jace and 2 Helm round out the four drops.

This particular combo deck interacts with the rest of the format's combo decks and seems to have a good match-up against all of them. Counterbalance is a disaster for storm decks, Bridge is a disaster against Sneak Show, RIP is great against grave-based strategies like Dredge and Reanimator while also threatening against Omniscience when you could have a Helm in hand to win. It even has game against Belcher because of Fow and CB for later tries. This doesn't mean it beats all of them consistently, although it looks good in theory.

I would build something like this:

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
2 Counterspell
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 new UW wrath
4 Force of Will

23 lands including Karakas. Lots of fetchlands for optimal Top and Brainstorms and a bunch of basics which is easy as a UW deck. Possibly a sol land or two for quick Helms or Jaces but I don't think it's really necessary. There are 20 blue cards to support Force.

I like how this deck can ignore Pithing Needle where more dedicated RIP/Helm lists have trouble with that card. Here you can either use Helm to win or get CB/Top and win with Jace.

[Griselpuff]

I like the thinking everybody is coming up with, but I want to see it all backed up by actual testing. I've played two dozen matches with the following list:

// Lands
8 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa

// Spells
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
2 [US] Energy Field
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [US] Back to Basics

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 4 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension
SB: 1 [TE] Humility

Detention Sphere has pretty insane against S&T, but maybe I have a couple too many. Overall my bad match-up seems to be Qasali Pridemage (Maverick/Bant) decks. Not sure what can be done to fix this, other than maybe Needle main. I'd say the flex slots are 1 D-Sphere, and maybe the Spell Pierces. It would be nice to fit in some additional Energy Fields/Humilties/Moats/Ensnaring Bridges though, but the list is very tight.

One important note is I have taken all as many nonbasics as possible, due to Wasteland and Energy Field. I haven't had any mana problems, and we have answers to Emrakul anyways.

[Freggle]

With the ultimate goal of essentially casting 5 CMC artifact, AND opponents will likely be attempting to go big over Counter Balance where is the lomg since forgotten Mana Drains?

It looks juicy in a counter war if you nail a Force too.

editOops banned nevermind.

[lavafrogg]

Some variation of this list will most likely get enlightened tutor banned, seeing how RIP nukes all graveyards, it smashes 2/3 top decks and shuts down snapcaster and lingering souls. This will lead to a rise of goblins and Merfolk, which have no graveyard reliance, which ultimately leads to the rise of zoo.

Then enlightened tutor gets banned and we get to back up to today like it never happened.

Long story short If you really want zoo to be playable again, play this deck.

[Mr. Safety]

Would Scepter-Chant be good alongside RIP/Helm? Chant/Silence seem like great ways to protect the combo, are in your color, and provide an alternative route to victory. Enlightened Tutor is already a heavy emphasis, why not splash 1-2 Scepters in there to create a hard lock, giving you all the time in the world to set up RIP/Helm?

Just a crazy-ass idea...I love the deck concept and I really can't argue against the new blue Wrath and Jace as your power plays. Playing a 2-card combo makes me think that this is what Vintage must be like...but only from impression, I don't actually play vintage.

[(nameless one)]

Web of Inertia becomes interesting with Rest in Peace in play.

I actually think this is better than Energy Field since it stops Emrakul from attacking. Its not like Burn can't be stopped by CounterTop.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I like the thinking everybody is coming up with, but I want to see it all backed up by actual testing. I've played two dozen matches with the following list:

// Lands
8 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa

// Spells
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
2 [US] Energy Field
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [US] Back to Basics

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 4 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension
SB: 1 [TE] Humility

Detention Sphere has pretty insane against S&T, but maybe I have a couple too many. Overall my bad match-up seems to be Qasali Pridemage (Maverick/Bant) decks. Not sure what can be done to fix this, other than maybe Needle main. I'd say the flex slots are 1 D-Sphere, and maybe the Spell Pierces. It would be nice to fit in some additional Energy Fields/Humilties/Moats/Ensnaring Bridges though, but the list is very tight.

One important note is I have taken all as many nonbasics as possible, due to Wasteland and Energy Field. I haven't had any mana problems, and we have answers to Emrakul anyways.

Pretty close to where I'm moving at the moment, I really like that list. I think the MD Needle is too good to not play (makes it really easy to lock out Maverick where otherwise it's really hard due to the Zeniths and has additional utility against Planeswalkers/Sneak Attack).
I've been trying a Future Sight as a tutorable way to match Jace-advantage and sometimes it has been awesome, sometimes lackluster. I'm unconvinced this deck actually needs four StPs, I'd replace one with a Porphyry Nodes (allows you to slowly clean the board against a Teeg plus Moms after setting up RIP/Field) and see how many others I can remove before creatures become a problem. The Field-lock has been that good.
Also, as bad as it is against Wasteland, I always want a single artifact land to tutor for, has come up a lot already and I remember how important being able to get mana was with ThopterFoundry.

[Griselpuff]

Hmm, I like Future Sight for the sole reason that you can e-tutor it to counter FOW when CB is out. I'll take a look into it. There have definitely been times where I'd have liked a Seat of the Synod (and times when I wanted Academy Ruins!)... I'll test SotS some more since it seems a lot more consistent than having one ofs of Karakas/Academy Ruins.

BTW, my friend moscowdemon listened to me and played my list and won a Trial at Magic-league with my list! :smile:

http://www.magic-league.com/deck/78639/legacy.html#UW%20Rest%20in%20Pieces81982

[Griselpuff]

2nd Legacy trial in a row won by RIP :) This time I was the pilot.

www.magic-league.com/deck/78645/legacy.html

[Spigore]

Hey all,

I checked on the UW Sanctuary topic and must say, pretty impressive list akatsuki!
Congratulations on the nice finishes!
I've edited it a little to below list.
Pls note, a little undecided on the sideboard. Any input from your testing akatsuki, is welcome;


1 Seat of the Synod
7 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

2 Helm of Obedience
3 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
2 Detention Sphere
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle

3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

SIDEBOARD:
2 Detention Sphere
3 Flusterstorm
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Arcane Laboratory
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Back to Basics
1 Moat
1 Energy Field
1 Future Sight

Basically it's the same mainboard as akatsuki. BUT changes:
-1 Island
-3 Fetchland
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

-1 Counterbalance
-1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Back to Basics
1 Energy Field
1 Rest in Peace
1 Humility

Tutor combos well with a Counterbalance trigger on the stack, but forces you to draw a card you might not want, just to make CB hit. Although Tutor gets you your desired piece of fun, you can't deny it's card disadvantage.
Upping the Energy Field and Rest in Peace seems a good way to balance the loss of control while playing 3 Counterbalance.

Mainboard I think -1 Back to Basics +1 Humility would be better. Whereas B2B knocks down Tempo Thresh (and somewhat Maverick), Humility does the same (and even better), and protects the combo (and never harms yourself!).

[catmint]

Since the deck has so many cards that are bad in multples but could use some acceleration wouldn't some number of chrome-mox be nice?

Also Argivian Find seems somehow playable in the 75.
Edit: Sure.. good combo with RIP. :)

but if the deck run's chrome mox, SD.top, FoW & E. tutor it won't have a lot of cards in hand I suppose. Ensnaring Bridge might be an option for everyone who does not want to buy a Moat.

[Mirrislegend]

Do you guys have any testing/results? I'm eager to see how RIP hurts other decks and no one else is trying it

[Griselpuff]

I play as many basics as possible due to Energy Field. You don't want more than 1 RIP, which is why I have 3 (add one to the board though for when people bring in Grips etc.) I will admit I see the potential utility of Academy Ruins (and to a lesser extent, Karakas since S&T is a great MU b/c of D-Sphere).

Go ahead and test yourselves. 4 E-tutors is a MUST, it's by far the best card in the deck. Card disadvantage doesn't matter b/c you either counter a card when CB is out or you get a card that wins you the game (or stops you from losing). MD B2B has also been really useful.

Also please read the whole thread before posting things like "have you guys done testing?" etc.

[dahcmai]

I posted this in the Parfait thread, but this is obviously the thread for this deck.

Here's the one I have been playing. It's pretty similar to what's going on with everyone's lists so far. I just run the Land Tax combo in addition and can convert back to Stoneforge if need be. So far it's a pretty good plan since Stoneforge is excellent against what the main deck has problems with.

Gaining the Mox Diamonds speeds you up a full turn also. Turn 4 isn't hard to pull off at all and fairly common.

It's not as heavily comborific, but it's control elements make up for that quite handily.

4 Land Tax (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Land%20Tax)
3 Scroll Rack (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Scroll%20Rack)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Jace,%20the%20Mind%20Sculptor)
3 Rest in Peace (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest%20in%20Peace)
2 Enlightened Tutor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Enlightened%20Tutor)
2 Helm of Obedience (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Helm%20of%20Obedience)
4 Brainstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Brainstorm)
4 Daze (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Daze)
3 Spell Pierce (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Pierce)
4 Path to Exile (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Path%20to%20Exile)
3 Terminus (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Terminus)
4 Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will)
4 Mox Diamond (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mox%20Diamond)
4 Flooded Strand (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Flooded%20Strand)
6 Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Island)
4 Plains (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Plains)
4 Tundra (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tundra)


Side (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Side)
2 Echoing Truth (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Echoing%20Truth)
1 Pithing Needle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pithing%20Needle)
2 Detention Sphere (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Detention%20Sphere)
2 Blue Elemental Blast (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Blue%20Elemental%20Blast)
2 Batterskull (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Batterskull)
4 Stoneforge Mystic (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Stoneforge%20Mystic)
1 Back to Basics (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Back%20to%20Basics)
1 Runed Halo (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Runed%20Halo) - (this is a debatable slot. It's only here to cover any stupid stuff I might not have thought of until I get a more solid SB)




I like the Porphory Nodes, but I'm not sold on Energy Sphere. Nodes is similar to the Drop of Honey I used to play in BUG control so I can see it working well. Sphere I figure I really don't have a use for since mine is pretty aggressive.

[catmint]

There is a lot going on taking the idea in different directions.

First I think we can agree that "heavy" control is necessary. With that I mean not playing 4 Helm of Obedience.

Then there is the general question of: Do we want to play the "attrition game" in the sense of trading cards and gaining card advantage with stuff like Swords, Terminus, Jace, Miracles, Spell Pierce,... or do we want to lock out with Counterbalance, Moat, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, RIP/Field.

I think it should go more into the lock direction because E. Tutor, Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox, Force of Will & clunky stuff which is bad in multiples are a bad start for getting card advantages, but the lock pieces provide very good virtual card advantage.

In detail the questions I am working on are:

1) Acceleration
I think it is necessary since altough the manabase is super stable al lock pieces are 3+ mana and we want to use top and maybe use a spell pierce. Between Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox I would opt to go for Chrome Mox since I don't want to run more than 21 lands given we play sooo many basics and SD.top. On the other hand multiples of RIP/Field/counterbalance can become useful by providing fast mana.

Not sure if this is correct but I would like to run 3 Chrome Mox in the deck. Alternatively 1-2 Sol lands could be a nice addition to the manabase.

2) Counterbalance
To me a clear: yes - so much synergy
3 seems like a good number

3) Swords to Plowshares
I don't know. If I play creature/damage lock main, what do I want to sword? Lackey, Thalia, Delver,...? I feel just a couple of swords won't be enough against any good creature deck; therefore some lock need to be established anyway and swords takes slots away. ?? Only real problem is Teeg, but then you have to kill mother first... could be very difficult.

4) Miracles (Terminus)
Don't want to go that route I think. If Rip/Field is not enough, Humility or Ensnaring should come first.

5) Jace
Difficult one. If I don't kill the creatures I have to lock them first to make Jace good - and then I am winning anyway. So this might depend if I go the Swords/Miracles route or the lock route. Still Jace is so powerful and very good in matchups where the opponent does not drop a lot of creatures. If not maindeck then surely SB.

6) Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat
If I do not play creature removal I would go for Humility & Ensnaring Bridge main like carsten suggested, since Moat alone does not stop delver.

7) Spell Pierce
think this is necessary both to stop other combo decks and to defend our critical spells.

8) E. Tutor
Feels like the best spell that does it all. 4 seems right.

9) SB
Of course a lot of good silverbullets for E.Tutor, but I can see needle in multiples to protect against Explosives, Deed, Pridemage

Also is Academy ruins worth a slot? With rip in play we won't get a lot of stuff back right?

[Poron]

I love this kind of tricky deck.. did someone already consider Sterling Grove for protection and tutoring?

Also, this deck is all enchantments.. a couple of Replenish, should things run for the worse?

[catmint]

Replenish does not really work too well with RIP.

[Poron]

obviously.. in case things should go wrong. (Disenchant, etc.)

has anyone considered a plan B in case of Surgical Extraction??
a countered/destroyed RIP can be a nightmare

edit: yes, anyway Replenish was a bad call.

[TkDodo]

You can always board out the combo and bring in SFM/Batterskull or more Jace + EtA. But I seriously doubt that anyone would bring in Surgicals against this deck. Its a funny card once RiP is on board ...

[Griselpuff]

Black decks have the option of bringing in Surgical, if they play cards like Abrupt Decay and lots of discard to ensure RIP doesn't get/stay in play. So I would definitely consider some alt. win conditions.

Maverick and Bant are definitely tough matchups.... I might consider Seal of Removal (and Seal of Cleansing for that matter).

Also, I decided against Academy Ruins when I realized it couldn't recur enchantments. Definitely not worth it when it has only 2 real MD targets.

[Moduloc]

I have to say I love this deck, I have always loved helm since it was printed and the illustration, classic. I wonder if ancient tomb would be a good way to excel to higher mana to activate the combo.

[gkraigher]

I don't understand why you are playing non-basics lands. Karakas, Academy Ruins, Seat of the Synod do next to nothing. Who cares about there legendary creatures when you have humility. What are you trying to recur? If you got rid of that, then you would no longer lose to wasteland. Which is what you have basically set yourself up to do. Any deck that energy field is good against runs wasteland.

So why subject yourself to losing when you can keep it simple. I honestly think you could cut tundras out of the main deck entirely, or keep 1 main or 1 in the board.

something like this:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Rest in Peace
4 Energy Field
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Humility
3 Land Tax
1 Scroll Rack
2 Counterbalance
1 Back to Basics
1 Defense Grid

4 Flooded Strand
8 Plains
10 Island
1 Tundra



SB: 1 detention spehere
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Cursed Totem

[TkDodo]

I don't understand why you are playing non-basics lands. Karakas, Academy Ruins, Seat of the Synod do next to nothing. Who cares about there legendary creatures when you have humility.


Seat of the Synod does nothing if you don't play Trinket Mage, because I can't ever imagine E.Tutoring for that land. I must have kept a very bad hand to make that happen.
Academy Ruins also does nothing, especially not if you have RiP out. You're most likely not going to play a Helm before RiP, so what's the point?
Karakas is a little different, since we are pretty cold to Mother of Runes + Teeg, which is not uncommon. It's also incidentially good against Reanimator. Humility is mostly too slow here.



4 Flooded Strand
8 Plains
10 Island
1 Tundra


That mana base however can't be correct. 4 fetches is not enough if you need to filter with Brainstorm and SD.Top. Next to E.Tutor, Top->Fetch->Top again is the main way to assemble the combo. 8-9 fetches are appropriate.


I wonder if ancient tomb would be a good way to excel to higher mana to activate the combo.

Yes, I think it would. AtM, my mana base looks like that:

7 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Karakas

[Darkenslight]

FWIW, I'd consider a manabase that had only fetches and 2 Karakas as nonbasics, but then I can't play the deck with regularity.

Moreover, if your Rest in Peace gets destroyed, it's also exiled in a similar way to Samurai of the Pale Curtain. So no Surgical shenanigans either way. So you still have nothing to fear from cards like Surgical whilst RiP is on the field.

[Maëlig]

To me this combo is an almost strict upgrade to thopter-sword, which is played in a similar shell. It wins on the spot, it's not vulnerable to GY or artifact hate (providing you play helm with RiP on the board) and one of the combo pieces is often useful by itself. Therefore and rather than reinventing the wheel I think we have a lot to learn from the CB-thopter lists which have been fine-tuned over the years. Take for instance sdematt's last list :



1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Tomb (very good all tournament)
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

3 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus
4 Enlightened Tutor

3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry


Just replace thopter by RiP and sword by helm and that's a solid basis, imo. Probably needs some small adjustments (e.g. a second helm since we're can't recur it like sword), but that's about it.

[catmint]

I think Teeg is something to really have in mind when deck designing. Landing Humility before Teeg comes down won't happen often enough - especially with Thalia around. If you don't want to be forced to kill every mother in sight (which restricts deck design in terms of running a lot of removal -> remember we don't have access to snapcaster mage like other UWx decks), I would opt to run more than 1 Karakas in the 75.

In addition it might be an option to run some way of tutoring Karakas which also have other applications like Muddle the Mixture, Tolaria West or Crop Rotation if you want to splash green for sterling grove (which I don't think is a good idea).

Maybe it is an option to run more utility lands that support the gameplan but are "bad" land drops like Karakas, Maze of Ith, Tolaria West and support Mox Diamond.

[Maëlig]

some way of tutoring Karakas which also have other applications like Muddle the Mixture
Uh?

[gkraigher]

It's also incidentially good against Reanimator. Humility is mostly too slow here.
You have rest in peace and humility main. That is enough for game 1. Sneak and Show is a little different, but all you have to do is tutor up humility and keep it in your hand. I don't think those decks are a problem.

Onto Gaddock Teeg, which is a problem. The Good News is he is a 1 lot in exactly 1 deck. And even with Green Sun's Zeniths, you still don't have that much to worry about. Your opponent might not know what you are playing in game 1, so they may not go that line of play until its too late. If you want to play Karakas against it, fine, just do it from the board. You cannot justify weakening your deck against RUG, Goblins, Elves, and all the other 4 x Wasteland mains that would scoop to Energy Field game 1 to deal with a card that might be a problem in only 1 deck. That is why you have a sideboard. So tuck 2-3 karakas in there, along with cursed totem (for the pridemages) and another humility. Problem solved.

I think swords to plowshares is better than karakas though. Especially if you can drop that cursed totem against Maverick. You sighted mother of runes to protect against swords, well they also have 4 wastelands and 4 knights of the reliquary to battle karakas. That seems twice as more likely than the 4 mother of runes.

[Barook]

What about Powder Keg as a solution against Teeg?

It's tutorable, doesn't give a damn about Teeg (unlike EE) and leaves your enchantments alone (unlike EE/Ratchet Bomb).

Might be too slow, though, as it takes two turns to charge.

[Koby]

What about Powder Keg as a solution against Teeg?

It's tutorable, doesn't give a damn about Teeg (unlike EE) and leaves your enchantments alone (unlike EE/Ratchet Bomb).

Might be too slow, though, as it takes two turns to charge.

Moonglove Extract
Aeolipile

[Griselpuff]

Seal of Removal would probably be better.

Playing 4 Swords to Plowshares and a couple Porphyry Nodes (great against mom) is another option

[Rock Lee]

vedalken shackles is the superior answer to teeg btw.

[bowvamp]

Shackles is terrible vs. Teeg. Sure, you've got their dude, but it's a 5 mana 2/2. You still can't combo.

Is anyone trying out Stax-like permanents in this deck? I feel like that could be a route.

[Rock Lee]

Shackles is terrible vs. Teeg. Sure, you've got their dude, but it's a 5 mana 2/2. You still can't combo.

Is anyone trying out Stax-like permanents in this deck? I feel like that could be a route.

You do realize that every single deck that runs teeg either loses to counters, or has to attack to win.

[Maëlig]

You do realize that every single deck that runs teeg either loses to counters, or has to attack to win.

Attack with knight, pro-white him with mom, win.

Teeg is certainly a big issue. I'd stick with the generic answers like PtE or o ring / detention sphere (tutorable), not sure I want super-specific cards. Aeolipile / Moonglove extract is an interesting suggestion though and the only other ones I'd seriously consider, as it is a) a tutorable answer b) not vulnerable to qasali (like o ring / sphere / keg) c) doesn't care if mom is on the board.

[Rock Lee]

Attack with knight, pro-white him with mom, win.

Teeg is certainly a big issue. I'd stick with the generic answers like PtE or o ring / detention sphere (tutorable), not sure I want super-specific cards. Aeolipile / Moonglove extract is an interesting suggestion though and the only other ones I'd seriously consider, as it is a) a tutorable answer b) not vulnerable to qasali (like o ring / sphere / keg) c) doesn't care if mom is on the board.

Can't believe you posited this situation. You steal the knight and start whomping then?

[Koby]

Can't believe you posited this situation. You steal the knight and start whomping then?

Knight is almost always >5/5.
How many Islands do you have against Wasteland?

[catmint]

Can't belive shackles is discussed as an answer to teeg in a deck that wants to finish off with helm and lock with Humility for more than 2 posts. Hang in there Koby. :tongue:

[Rock Lee]

Can't belive shackles is discussed as an answer to teeg in a deck that wants to finish off with helm and lock with Humility for more than 2 posts. Hang in there Koby. :tongue:

try to read what you just wrote. A less than CmC 3 answer in a deck that wins with greater than cmc answers.


Knight is almost always >5/5.
How many Islands do you have against Wasteland?

you only need 2? Because knight is a 2/2 against RiP?


I'll quit with this since using logic and tested deck logic has obviously being abandoned in this thread and I'm disturbing the norm.

[Oiolosse]

Don't stop. The rebuttals are amusing and informative. Just when I thought either side had it pinned, BAM, rebuttal.

I'll sleeve this up since I was toying with Thopters.

Unlike Thopters, we need acceleration. Ancient Tomb was a good recommendation. Chrome Mox? I almost always hate it outside of combo. Mox Diamond needs too many lands and I think we can make this list compact with low CMC protection.

[gkraigher]

Mox Diamond and Land Tax is a thing.

[Koby]

you only need 2? Because knight is a 2/2 against RiP?


I'll quit with this since using logic and tested deck logic has obviously being abandoned in this thread and I'm disturbing the norm.

I'm trying to follow along, honestly - but you're all over the place.
Answer to Teeg - Shackles, which steals a RIP'd 2/2 Knight, to "whomp" them back.

Something doesn't fit here.

[dahcmai]

Teeg?

Well, if you're playing my version, you just Path it. I don't get what's hard about that one.

[Rock Lee]

I'm trying to follow along, honestly - but you're all over the place.
Answer to Teeg - Shackles, which steals a RIP'd 2/2 Knight, to "whomp" them back.

Something doesn't fit here.

Sometimes I try to figure out how other deck designers think. I honestly feel like other deck designers on average will take a square hole, circle hole, square peg, circle peg, keep mashing the two wrong ones in the incorrect holes forever and say "SYSTEM BROKEN WTF!?"

I'm really not sure if it comes down to inability to logic-path or if it just comes down to derpyhooves syndrome.


To super simplify it for ya Koby.

Problem 1. You're dying to beaters because you have all combo pieces with Teeg in play. Shackles then takes dudes. Dudes that are stealable due to RiP or can chump. Shackles takes teeg, fogs indefinitely as they now cannot attack you until they can alpha strike you. You either, A: draw a 2nd Shackles and kill them or B: Draw your less-of answer to Teeg/dudes i.e. STP/Karakas/Detention.

Problem 2. You are being killed by little green men while you cannot assemble combo pieces. You use Shackles to steal chump blockers until you get RiP, then steal their 2/2's and again fog until you draw combo pieces.


Super simple. The concept was so simple I didn't think it needed to be explained, but apparently you wanted it pounded home. I worry for humanity sometimes.


A good hate piece will have multiple applications to avoid it being dead. Shackles does this. Hence why it is a strong choice.

[catmint]

Sorry Rock Lee for my polemic comment.

Problem I have with Shakles in this deck:
We don't want to grind them out with fair cards like shakles. We want to humiliate or Rip/field them and win with RIP/Helm.

Koby can surely judge better since I think he knows maverick well, but I don't think that a shakles will do enough. For example: If they have mother they can give protection and attack, they play a number of flyers, they can play sylvan library finding a lot of answers and drawing tons of cards, they can swarm you and maze of ith your blocker, they can bounce teeg with their own karakas if you stolen it.

Some of these plays you can answer by taking another creature with shakles next turn, but you will loose life & tempo in the process which is not a route to win.

So as I said in the opening of the post: I don't want to take the fight to this level. I just want to Humility & Helm to win and therefore want to kill or bounce Teeg.

[gkraigher]

Problem I have with Shakles in this deck:
We don't want to grind them out with fair cards like shakles. We want to humiliate or Rip/field them and win with RIP/Helm.

Exactly. Shackles does nothing that you might want a card to do. Its not an anwser to teeg, in fact, all it does is let mavrick stockpile more and more creatures until they can run you over.

It was a horrible suggestion, and we should move on.

Better hate cards for maverick would be Cursed Totem, Swords to Plowsahres and Humility. They do stuff. Someone suggest Path to Exile, I think that is the wrong choice for the deck. Giving someone a land is much better than giving them life that you don't care about.

[Freggle]

Exactly. Shackles does nothing that you might want a card to do. Its not an anwser to teeg, in fact, all it does is let mavrick stockpile more and more creatures until they can run you over.

It was a horrible suggestion, and we should move on.

Better hate cards for maverick would be Cursed Totem, Swords to Plowsahres and Humility. They do stuff. Someone suggest Path to Exile, I think that is the wrong choice for the deck. Giving someone a land is much better than giving them life that you don't care about.

It wasn't a terrible suggestion, just not a great one vs. Gaddock Teeg.

Remember (barring a few cards and their bustedness) Magic is a Paradox. There are more-or-less more right answers at certain times than others, but usually not many terrible ones.

Having played enchantress with Energy Field + Wheel of Sun and Moon for at least a quarter of a year now I can say the Wasteland issue will happen from time to time, but it is not paralyzing for the decks development.

Leaning more towards basics would be in your best interest, but not mandatory.

A card that should likely be played main is Pithing Needle. It's very good vs. Qasali's, wastes, Sneak Attacks, you name it.

Oblivion Ring is very well positioned right now because of how it interacts with Show and Tell, and should be considered main material, becuase it also handles Teeg, and other things that can regularly mess you up.

Lastly, if Teeg is really that scary Karakas an on-color land should do the trick. Yes it ups the non-basics, but it also does a lot of work against Emrakul, Thalia, Teeg, ...

This is what I have learned from the enchantress perspective.

[gkraigher]

I think you need either 1 arcane labratory or 1 rule of law to deal with ad nauseum and timespiral.

[ReinVos]

I don't think that's really necessary. You could have one in the board but game one you have counters and counterbalance (with a lot of 1s in your deck to counter rituals and high tides) giving you a good match-up against them already. You should reserve that slot for something that improves bad match-up or ups consistency.

I really, really think Supreme Verdict is perfect for this deck. It can't be countered so all the time you lost by durdling around is now recovered and you'll be in a very good position for the upcoming turns. The best thing about it is it's guaranteed to resolve. Even though this deck has tops I like Verdict over Terminus because you're not a pure control deck. You're more aggressively looking for specific cards so you'll want to fetch more, and not keep a Terminus waiting in the top three of your deck while you're holding a Helm. Yeah, pretty useless. Verdict allows for more flexibility, because the way this deck is built it's basic-heavy, so the mana cost shouldn't be a problem.

But since the general weakness of Counterbalance decks is them landing multiple threats before you establish Counterbalance lock. Terminus is great at solving this problem in Miracles, and Supreme Verdict should play that role here, as a two-of maybe. Some games you can't put the kill together quite yet but you're facing a scary board, it's nice to be able to dig for a panic button, guaranteed to work. It's the perfect card to convert CB+Top into a kill because as long as he has a board, your combo isn't winning you the game. If you sweep the board with the lock online you're going to win more than 90% of the time (especially since you can now better protect RIP/helm, or Jace).

I agree that one Oblivion Ring in the main is great because it functions as a three to go get with Tutor, and it's a solid answer to Show and Tell decks. Much better than Ensnaring Bridge. Oblivion Ring can also take down a wide range of other stuff.

[Griselpuff]

This is awesome! I love all the interest and discussion so far, I've gotten a lot of ideas to refine through testing. I agree, I think Karakas is now worth it because it can deal with Teeg, Thalia and Clique (sort of). This deck has a goal of hitting pretty much exactly five lands, so I don't want to play more, but I think having Seat of the Synod is actually necessary (I've tutored for it with E tutor and won games with it there, and been frustrated when I couldn't tutor for a land).

Here's my current list:

// Lands
8 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [LG] Karakas

// Spells
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
2 [US] Energy Field
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [US] Back to Basics
1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RTR] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Energy Field
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension


Another idea I had was to simply SB into Miracles! So same MD with the sb of:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [FNM] Counterspell
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels


It's surprisingly portable, as the combo is very compact and doesn't require too many pieces of it due to E-tutor.

[lochlan]

Nice list, akatsuki, it's very close to what I've been testing. One question: why did you cut the Leylines of Sanctity? They have been pretty good for me in testing, having utility against both discard (which seems pretty bad for us) as well as Ritual combo. I also prefer Humility in the main but I can see moving it to the board depending on your expected field.

Also:



SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Currently I am playing 1x Jace main as an alternate win condition, to blow up opposing Jaces, and so on. An additional Jace probably wouldn't be the worst, but I can't see ever wanting 3x in the post board. What are you using these 3x Jace for?

[Hanni]

Maybe it's just me, but I think this deck should be focusing a little more on the combo, and little less on filler. I'm also seeing a lack of the best anti-aggro tool available to this deck; Ensnaring Bridge.

Leyline of the Void doubles the amount of pieces for half the combo. It also costs no mana if its in the opener, reducing the cost of the combo significantly. At 4cc, it dodges Abrupt Decay, and it cannot be discarded by Cabal Therapy or countered by Force of Will (since it comes into play before the game starts). Enlightened Tutors can then be focused on finding Helm of Obedience, or whatever toolbox target is needed. I'd also be running 4 RIP and 4 Helm.

Crystal Vein seems like a pretty good land to run. Unlike City of Traitors, you don't need to sacrifice it until you actually need the extra colorless mana. Traitors isn't benefiting you when your casting the majority of your spells anyway, since only a few require more than single colorless.

Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond could also be really good. This combo is pretty expensive, compared to the other alternatives in the format. With multiple Counterbalances, RIP's, Energy Fields, Leylines, etc being redundant, Chrome seems like a good choice. On the other hand, Diamond provides all colors, which is great for mana fixing. The card disadvantage point seems moot; you're already running Enlightened Tutor, and Ensnaring Bridge actually benefits from it. If going the Diamond path, a singleton Crucible could be good.

With 4 E Tutor, the deck should only need 1 Detention Sphere to tutor for, to deal with whatever is causing a problem for your combo (like Teeg or Needle). This deck is better off using spells like Ensnaring Bridge to stop aggro from attacking; slow spot removal and mass removal just seems kinda silly, when Miracles is just alot better at that gameplan. This deck only needs to shut down aggro long enough to assemble the combo and win.

Just my 2 cents.

EDIT:

tldr: why dilute the deck to try and play a better control game, rather than making the combo more consistent and resilient? Miracles is better at the control game... so why not just win, instead of durdling around?

[lochlan]

Maybe it's just me, but I think this deck should be focusing a little more on the combo, and little less on filler.

I don't know if I'd call the non-lock pieces "filler"--this is definitely a control deck with a combo finish. Frankly I would not want to be including 4x uncastable black enchantments in a UW shell that already has a slightly low blue count at ~20 cards. I personally would rather not reduce the amount of control elements in a deck that is going to be inherently slow no matter what. Ultimately you have to win on the back of a 4-mana artifact, a Jace, or a Luminarch Ascension--so I'd rather have a sturdy control shell to support this win than increase my number of lock pieces which don't win the game per se.

What you're describing simply sounds like a different, more combo-oriented deck--but I really think that Helm of Obedience lends itself more to a slower control angle than a faster combo approach.

[Griselpuff]

I've tried the all-in combo version, and I don't feel like it packs significant enough disruption to make it a better choice than other combo decks like Show and Tell. You can feel free to keep experimenting though. :)

The 3 Jace are for siding into a deck with more win-conditions basically. (Surgical Extraction decks, decks with a limited number of creatures that Jace just shuts down). The 3 Jace have been great, I would definitely keep them in.

I didn't test Leyline of Sanctity that much, I just felt like discard wasn't THAT terrible for us since our combo consists of permanents, which can just be played. Plus we have E-tutor. I guess I just felt as though I ran out of room, but perhaps it can be justified. The other issue I have is that it costs 4, and does very little if it's not in your opening hand. But to ensure it's in the opening hand, you need to play more copies, which is hard to fit in the sb for something that doesn't necessarily help that much.

[Greenpoe]

This is awesome! I love all the interest and discussion so far, I've gotten a lot of ideas to refine through testing. I agree, I think Karakas is now worth it because it can deal with Teeg, Thalia and Clique (sort of). This deck has a goal of hitting pretty much exactly five lands, so I don't want to play more, but I think having Seat of the Synod is actually necessary (I've tutored for it with E tutor and won games with it there, and been frustrated when I couldn't tutor for a land).

Here's my current list:

// Lands
8 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [LG] Karakas

// Spells
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
2 [US] Energy Field
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [US] Back to Basics
1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RTR] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Energy Field
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension


Another idea I had was to simply SB into Miracles! So same MD with the sb of:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [FNM] Counterspell
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels


It's surprisingly portable, as the combo is very compact and doesn't require too many pieces of it due to E-tutor.

This list looks incredibly solid. ReinVos was describing the problem of CB decks as dealing with too many threats, but Energy Field quite nicely deals with a losing board position. My suggestion, though, would be to go -1 Porphyr Nodes and +1 Energy Field, since Field is a significantly better vs. a losing board position than Nodes. Plus, if you have 2 Energy Fields in hand, then they have to deal with one,
then somehow deal with the second! (Plus that can free up a SB slot.)

I think the 2nd Detention Sphere should be cut, perhaps for a Threads of Disloyalty, Story Circle, Humility or possibly even Land Tax. Though I understand wanting enough 3cc's for CB.

I do think that the 2nd Detention Sphere and the Porphyr Nodes are the only weak cards in the deck, the rest is like a work of art as it all has so much synergy so well together. I'd also recommend a SB Nevermore.

[Darkenslight]

I'm thinking that having the choice between Energy Field and Web of Inertia seems like a highly interesting option, allowing you to make a metagame choice. Web also allows for immense synergy with RiP.

Also suspecting that manabases are going to have a base of:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Blue or White Fetchland
3 Plains
2 Island

With 7-9 slots left over for mana.

I'm also highly interested in what ETutor packages people are looking at using. I think that the Essential Tutor targets are (beyond the combo):

1 Pithing Needle
1 Detention Sphere
2 Web of Inertia/Energy Field
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Humility

There's definitely a strong deck here. I'm just not sure if it's right for the current time.

[Koby]

Leyline of the Void, aside from being uncasyable, does not have synergy with Energy Field. To me, thats the deal breaker.

Im inclined to run Back to basics and drop a few Tundra for more basics. It boosts the 3 cmc slot and gives more disruption, plus its Amazing.

[Snap_Keep]

Leyline could be good in the SB... It's more hate and it's a relevant combo piece

Why is Back to Basics Amazing in this deck?

[Koby]

Leyline could be good in the SB... It's more hate and it's a relevant combo piece

Why is Back to Basics Amazing in this deck?

Because (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-24636.html?)

[Hanni]

Leyline of the Void, aside from being uncasyable, does not have synergy with Energy Field. To me, thats the deal breaker.


I'm thinking that having the choice between Energy Field and Web of Inertia seems like a highly interesting option, allowing you to make a metagame choice. Web also allows for immense synergy with RiP.



Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond could also be really good.


I'm also seeing a lack of the best anti-aggro tool available to this deck; Ensnaring Bridge.

EDIT: I'm not sure what the fascination with Energy Field is. The only matchups where I can see it being better than either Web of Inertia or Ensnaring Bridge (which I'm not even sure why you'd need Web with Bridge), would be against Burn and Tendrils Storm. You already have Counterbalance.

I realize how fun the synergy with Field and RIP is, but... is it maybe just a danger of cool things? Field itself is pretty awful without RIP.

EDIT 2:
What you're describing simply sounds like a different, more combo-oriented deck--but I really think that Helm of Obedience lends itself more to a slower control angle than a faster combo approach.


I've tried the all-in combo version, and I don't feel like it packs significant enough disruption to make it a better choice than other combo decks like Show and Tell. You can feel free to keep experimenting though. :)


tldr: why dilute the deck to try and play a better control game, rather than making the combo more consistent and resilient? Miracles is better at the control game... so why not just win, instead of durdling around?

I realize that this combo is slower than Show and Tell. I also realize that the control is worse than Miracles. There is nothing wrong with a combo/control approach, but you need to find the right balance of combo and control to make the deck successful. If you go too much into the combo route, you become worse than Show and Tell. If you go too much into the control route, you become worse than Miracles.

Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares, Ensnaring Bridge, and Detention Sphere are something that Show and Tell is not running. At the same time, Leyline/RIP + Helm + accel is a much faster "win" compared to Miracles using Jace and Entreat.

[Greenpoe]

Energy Field is leagues better than Web of Inertia. Web is only better if you have a RiP out and it gets destroyed.

Assuming you do not have RiP out, then most decks play a bunch of fetchlands plus instants/sorcerories, etc. so they have no prob exiling one card from their GY. However, Field has an immediate effect on the battlefield. To stop it, they'll have to Waste a land or destroy an artifact/enchant of yours. Assuming you do have RiP out, then Field is simply better due to costing 2 instead of 3 (which is very relevant in a mana-intensive deck).

Let's face it: Energy Field does a much better job holding down the fort than Web does. Imagine facing hands like:
UR Delver - T1 Fetch, Goblin Guide. T2, land, Goblin Guide & bolt.
Mav - T1 Fetch, Mother of Runes. T2, Savannah, Thalia.
Canadian - T1 Fetch, Delver. T2, land, Goyf.
Goblins - T1 Cavern of Souls, Goblin Lackey. T2, MWM.
The point is, these decks:
(a) apply fast pressure, making Web, 3 mana enchantment that gives them an easy option to escape, pretty easy to fight around. Sure, a lot of decks won't exactly enjoy getting rid of a card, but they'd rather do that than lose the option altogether as Field would.
(b) they have mana denial! Stifle, Thalia, Port! These make the 3-mana enchantment less feasible as an effort to stabilize.

When you don't have RiP, Field is simply better. It's not the best card in the world, but it's usually a multi-turn Fog as they struggle to find a way around it.

[Maëlig]

Someone suggest Path to Exile, I think that is the wrong choice for the deck. Giving someone a land is much better than giving them life that you don't care about.
Don't think anyone suggested PtE in place of StP, only in addition. Definitely a good SB option against aggressive / tempo decks, imo.



EDIT: I'm not sure what the fascination with Energy Field is. The only matchups where I can see it being better than either Web of Inertia or Ensnaring Bridge (which I'm not even sure why you'd need Web with Bridge), would be against Burn and Tendrils Storm. You already have Counterbalance.

I realize how fun the synergy with Field and RIP is, but... is it maybe just a danger of cool things? Field itself is pretty awful without RIP.
I have to agree there. Testing the deck out I never found myself in a situation where I wanted to tutor energy field, much less web of inertia. If you have RiP on the board and enough mana, why not just win? If you don't have RiP then you probably don't want to waste a tutor on that when there are much more impacting cards you can get (the aforementionned RiP, top or CB if you have the other piece, humility / bridge, ...).

I don't think going full-combo is the right approach for this deck. As I said I see it as CB-thopter with an improved win-con.

[Hanni]

Energy Field is leagues better than Web of Inertia. Web is only better if you have a RiP out and it gets destroyed.

I don't agree with Web either, I was only pointing out that it also works with Leyline of the Void.

Aside from lacking Awesome (this card can pitch to Force of Will), I think Bridge is straight up better than Web and Field. Field is better in some niche cases, such as against Burn decks or Tendrils Storm, but this deck has Counterbalance already. On the other hand, Field requires another card to not suck, where Bridge stops aggro by itself.

When I say 'not suck,' I realize that it can stall the game if your not casting spells like E Tutor, Brainstorm, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, cracking fetchlands, and you aren't being hit by Wasteland or discard. However, doing so limits you from advancing your own gameplan in many ways, and is susceptible to other various strategies. Why go through all those hoops when you don't have RIP on the board, when you can just drop a Bridge instead?

The difference between 2 mana and 3 mana is valid, but I also suggested running more accelerants like Moxes, Crystal Vein, and so forth. A 2/2 split on RIP/Helm makes assembling that combo a battle in and of itself, and I don't think Thalia alone is worth running a much worse card than Ensnaring Bridge when you have Swords to Plowshares and Force of Will already.


I don't think going full-combo is the right approach for this deck. As I said I see it as CB-thopter with an improved win-con.

That's how I see it too, except Thopters required several turns of Thopter/Sword to generate the inevitability to win, whereas RIP/Helm just wins on the spot. That means this deck should be alot faster at winning if it is able to accelerate its mana sufficiently, and therefore doesn't need quite as much control elements to secure a win.

Again, finding that proper balance is going to be key. Going forward, if this deck is to become a competitive tier deck, it's going to need to find the proper mix. There is an optimal configuration to be had here, it's just going to take alot of trial and error to find it.

EDIT: As some additional content, Painter/Grindstone also becomes an interesting alternate win con (maybe postboard). Leyline/RIP help avoid a major problem with that combo (Emrakul), Painter can allow the deck to pitch excess crap to FoW (like Leyline), and that combo dodges some problems Helm may face (like GSZ and Thalia). It's an interesting idea, although I'm not sure if it would be worth it or not.

[ReinVos]

I do believe Energy Field could play a crucial role in this deck. It ups the cmc 2 count in this deck, is tutorable and solves a strategic problem CB decks usually have. It doesn't solve the board, but it does solve the most important part of the problem, which is dying. Supreme Verdict, as awesome as I think this card is, should be in the side and should probably be played over Path there. Two seems like the best number.

When I said Oblivion Ring earlier, I meant Detention Sphere. Forgot about that one for a second. I like one Sphere in the main.

I agree with Back to Basics too. It's another three and works together well with the rest of the deck. Partly because of Energy Field we're playing many basics, which in turn is excellent for Back to Basics.

Although I think Porphyry Nodes is pretty good, I don't think it's better than the fourth Swords to Plowshares. It's a bad tutor target because it takes forever before it eats a guy. At that point you might as well tutor for Detention Sphere if you desperately need to kill something, because you're probably dead if you have to wait for Nodes to kill more than one creature. So the fourth Swords just seems better and if you really want a fifth Swords, but don't want to give them a land, then Porphyry Nodes does seem like the go to card.

Although I can see why Pithing Needle main is totally fine, and I'm not against it or anything, but I personally don't like it main, because it's too reactive and restrictive for my taste. Maybe that doesn't seem to make any sense because you can name any card but that's how I feel about Needle.

I agree with Greenpoe that akatsuki's list is nearly perfect. I'd make the following changes:

-1 Detention Sphere
-1 Pithing Needle
-1 Porphyry Nodes

+1 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Jace

More fours for Counterbalance instead of even more ones, although we would now lose a three. The two threes in there are both tutorable though. Jace is your second wincondition when your opponent is needling down your helm. This gives the deck a huge boost in the resiliency department. There needs to be additional removal in the board if you're leaning towards plan B. because of match-ups or something but it's much better to bring in extra removal instead of extra removal AND jaces. That's taking out a lot of cards and it takes up a lot of space in the board. I think it's best to move the Jaces (well, two of them and leave one in the board) to the main, and then have additional board control elements in the board to support Jace.

Maybe something to get around Abrupt Decay. What about Meddling Mages in the board? Naming a removal spell with Meddling Mage protecting himself sounds pretty good. Because we're going to have a hard time dealing with that card. Having Jace in the main is a step in the right direction, but I fear we need an answer from the board for this card, which is going to revive all kinds of BUG decks, even Eva Green maybe.
Mage also doubles as powerful combo hate, so you don't need 4 Detention Spheres in your 75.

EDIT. Hanni does raise a good point about Ensnaring Bridge being better than Energy Field in many instances. Maybe both should be in there. Bridge as the third three and then 1 Field and 1 Bridge instead of 2 Fields. The flexibility of Enlightened Tutor allows us to play both, which is almost always better than two of each at that point...

[SirTylerGalt]

Started testing the deck on cockatrice. First game against Elves:

http://i.imgur.com/O4uK1.png

Awesome deck.

He comboes me out on turn 3, after losing his only Viridian Zealot trying to kill my Counterbalance... He tutors Gadock Teeg with GSZ (for my Terminus?) and proudly says go...

I untap, play land, Rest In Peace, Energy Field.

Opponent: "GG".
Player has left.

[Poron]

how did the Viridian Zealot fizzle?

anyway: no one still considered an EOT Abrupt Decay on RiP.
That kills both RiP and Energy Field. Seems like a major loss for cmc2, uncounterable, instant that will just become more and more popular in next meta.

imho we should pack some protection in case we see black (green is safe). Again, Sterling Grove and Greater Auramancy 1x..?

something better?

[SirTylerGalt]

how did the Viridian Zealot fizzle?

anyway: no one still considered an EOT Abrupt Decay on RiP.
That kills both RiP and Energy Field. Seems like a major loss for cmc2, uncounterable, instant that will just become more and more popular in next meta.

imho we should pack some protection in case we see black (green is safe). Again, Sterling Grove and Greater Auramancy 1x..?

something better?


I cast CounterBalance with one white mana up. He tries a 1 cmc elf, I blind reveal a 1 cmc card. He plays Viridian Zealot, I respond with E tutor for Energy Field, which counters his zealot (his only maindeck answer to artifacts / enchantments). He then proceeds to combo out and play a ton of 1 cmc elves (thanks to the countered Glimpse of Nature he recurred with Eternal Witness on the previous turn). I untap and play RiP + Energy Field. GG.



Misdirection and Divert are possible answers for Abrupt Decay. I'm testing them in my UWR aggro deck, and I really like them. Bolt my Nivmagus / Delver? I divert it to your Delver. It can also help in counter wars (change the target of a counterspell to your Misdirection). I even had a game where I misdirected a Hymn To Tourach :)

It might be less interesting in UW Sanctuary though, because opponent might not have a target you can misdirect too (e.g. opponent plays disenchant with no Artifact / Enchantment on board).

[Poron]

imho the shroud route takes less slot than the Misdirection/Divert one. More solidly, too

[Greenpoe]

Misdirection their disenchant effect onto a Top, then tap Top always works if they don't have a target.

[Spigore]

Abrupt Decay on Rest in Peace will not destroy Energy Field according to official ruling;

If Rest in Peace is destroyed by a spell, Rest in Peace will be exiled and then the spell will be put into its owner's graveyard.

Not to be a wiseguy, but just saiyan! :wink:

[alekill]

Do we know if anyone tried playing this at scg this weekend?

[ReinVos]

I mentioned Meddling Mage earlier as an answer to Abrupt Decay. It's useful in lots of combo match-ups and it's especially good because you probably name their number one removal spell. Junk decks will have both Swords and Decay so that will be rough but BUG lists or straight GB lists will have Abrupt Decay as their main removal spell and have a few outs to a resolved Meddling Mage naming Decay.

Meddling Mage is at it's best when you're trying to beat a card, rather than a strategy. Abrupt Decay is an example of this, as is Show and Tell.

[Poron]

Abrupt Decay on Rest in Peace will not destroy Energy Field according to official ruling;

If Rest in Peace is destroyed by a spell, Rest in Peace will be exiled and then the spell will be put into its owner's graveyard.

Not to be a wiseguy, but just saiyan! :wink:

Really? to break RiP would "exile" it because of the effect of RiP itself?
can we have a confirmation?

[Poron]

I mentioned Meddling Mage earlier as an answer to Abrupt Decay. It's useful in lots of combo match-ups and it's especially good because you probably name their number one removal spell. Junk decks will have both Swords and Decay so that will be rough but BUG lists or straight GB lists will have Abrupt Decay as their main removal spell and have a few outs to a resolved Meddling Mage naming Decay.

Meddling Mage is at it's best when you're trying to beat a card, rather than a strategy. Abrupt Decay is an example of this, as is Show and Tell.

good but risky calll. Who will play AD for sure? BUG and other black decks.

BUG plays 4 Innocent Blood as a must, Smallpox Ghastly Demise, Snuff Out

imho a creature is not an heavy answear. not to mention that any (just any) deck packs answears to creatures (StP, Lightning Bolt, REB, just infinite...) so that would be a natural target and it would "revive" lots of their dead cards..

Meddling Mage could be enourmous if only it was an enchantment (fetchable, playable 1x, safer, etc.)

edit: FOUND IT!! Nevermore just 1 mana too much argh!

[Hanni]

Meddling Mage is going to be alot better in the sideboard than in the maindeck. If someone isn't siding out their removal going into postboard games, it's only because they don't have anything else relevant to bring in.

A strong answer to Abrupt Decay is to just run more RIP's, and replay another one if the first one gets destroyed. Why durdle around tutoring for a protection enchantment? Shroud on enchantments doesn't even stop the bigger issues, like EE and Deed.

Nevermore does look like a nice addition though, since it can be tutored via E Tutor and gives you another 3cc spell for the Counterbalance curve. It's also much, much more versatile than Greater Auramancy.

I do have to question, at a certain point where people start dipping way too much into the enchantment control game, why one wouldn't just play Enchantress instead.

[Poron]

this is much more solid to me. massive use of blue, counterbalance, fast and reliable combo..

RiP(ped)Helm > Enchantress

more than pure control, my call is on the necessity of keeping our permanents on the field. this deck can't win in 1 turn, it needs 2 turn to set up the combo..

I'm also questioning myself what's the correct number of Helm

[Koby]

I ran 1 yesterday in an SCG IQ, and tutored for exactly once to win. I didn't feel I needed more than that. Playing with 20 lands will mean you rarely have 5 mana for Helm+activate unless you're already in a winning position. (ie, RIP + Energy Field)

[Greenpoe]

With this deck you could easily drop all the spot removal and just go to 4 Energy Field - after all, it increases the blue count, and if you have all basics, fetches and just 2 Tundra, they'll have a hard time dealing with just one Energy Field, let alone the second or third, or just one with the RiP online. Why bother with removing just one creature when you can invalidate their entire strategy, regardless of shroud/hexproof/protection? The answer is creatures like Dark Confidant, but because of that you'd still have SB removal and for the MD, I would increase the countermagic (adding either Daze or Counterspell) to deal with these problematic creatures as well as whatever else you might face along the way. I think that despite the drawback of Daze, you're still countering a spell for free, you can still hardcast it and it's still blue. The fact is that this deck just needs a little time to set up, then you can lay down your lock pieces and win.

[Poron]

because with Gaddock we can't land Helm and win...

[Freggle]

...why one wouldn't just play Enchantress instead.

Honestly, I think this is just comes down to what you are comfortable with playing.

An Enchantress deck with this combo is going to be relatively close to the competitive level of this deck.

Some days each one being higher than the other pending the meta.

I for one will be rocking the enchantress version because that is (at least for now) what I enjoy playing (a great deal.)

What I don't get is how are people considering Jace an acceptable wincon?

Typically you don't want an alt wincon that looses to the same hate. Jace can not be dropped under Gaddock Teeg, still looses to player shroud, and is weak to boards with tons of creatures with nothing to do (ahem! Energy Field)

...so what am I missing there?

Edit:

I ran 1 yesterday in an SCG IQ, and tutored for exactly once to win. I didn't feel I needed more than that. Playing with 20 lands will mean you rarely have 5 mana for Helm+activate unless you're already in a winning position. (ie, RIP + Energy Field)

Just an FYI I know I'm not going to convince Non-enchantress players to port this into an Enchantress shell, but enchantress naturally runs the ramp necessary to power a 5CMC win with relative ease. This is done for engine purposes, which just happen to overlap with this win.

[lochlan]

What I don't get is how are people considering Jace an acceptable wincon?

Typically you don't want an alt wincon that looses to the same hate. Jace can not be dropped under Gaddock Teeg, still looses to player shroud, and is weak to boards with tons of creatures with nothing to do (ahem! Energy Field)

Jace is definitely clunky, but IMO we do need a second win condition in the main. And I think it's a huge plus that Jace doesn't die to Enchantment removal, unlike the rest of the deck. I also like him for blowing up opposing Jaces.

As for your concerns, we do have Swords/Karakas/Porphyry Nodes/Detention Sphere to remove their creatures, including Teeg. If they do manage to get a creature on the board, as long as it's only one we can with with Jace/Humility, since we'll net +1 loyalty counter every turn with the fateseal ability. It seems like kind of a tall order, but this deck is so grindy and you have so much time to find your cards that Jace actually ends up being a bit better than he seems. But, yeah, still pretty clunky.

I like Luminarch Ascension out of the board as another win condition, but I don't know if I'd run it in the main. Regardless, I don't want to get blown out by Serenity or Reverent Silence and I can't think of a non-Enchantment win condition I like better than Jace.

[bowvamp]

I'm of the opinion that a manland plan is actually a pretty good idea in this deck. The reason being that if a deck like this wants to succeed it has to be tuned against creature strategies primarily. When you face another control deck, manlands really shine.

[Spigore]

Really? to break RiP would "exile" it because of the effect of RiP itself?
can we have a confirmation?

Rest in Peace on Gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=277995)

I like akatsuki's latest list at #82.
Still I think the full package of Tutor is a bit overdone. I really need to test the list and see what's up. Didn't have much time to play yet. After next weekend, I can feed some tournament reports to this thread.

Any other people who are having good results when taking this deck for a spin?

[Darkenslight]

Really? to break RiP would "exile" it because of the effect of RiP itself?
can we have a confirmation?

It's the exact same way that Samurai of the Pale Curtain works. The exact same way.

[Poron]

After some test, Energy Field is a 4 of.
We want always to see 2 in a match. (one is lost somehow, always)

Also Porphyry Nodes is not that helpfull unless it is landed at turn 1-2.

but packing just one makes this almost impossible (unless you waste a tutor. but to tutor just to gain time? mm)

Overall I find Energy Field, very often, even too often, not to be better than a Propaganda (goblin, tribal, maverick, etc.) + (4 Swords to Plowshares anyway)

Perhaps a split 2 Propaganda 2 Energy Field?

and yes: Jace and any other planeswalker are just terrible. EF and Propaganda just keep you safe, not your walkers... also after SB, when you pack 4 Leyline of Sanctity you are the only one safe from burns...
definitly no walkers here

last one from tests: I can't decide myself between Pithing Needle and Cursed Totem (both as 1x in MD). Perhaps I'm more prone to Totem
Did someone else lose his sleep here? :D

[Koby]

and yes: Jace and any other planeswalker are just terrible. EF and Propaganda just keep you safe, not your walkers... also after SB, when you pack 4 Leyline of Sanctity you are the only one safe from burns...
definitly no walkers here

last one from tests: I can't decide myself between Pithing Needle and Cursed Totem (both as 1x in MD). Perhaps I'm more prone to Totem
Did someone else lose his sleep here? :D

This is incorrect. Leyline of Sanctity WILL protect your planeswalkers from Burn spells, since they initially have to target a player before being redirected at a planeswalker you control.

As for Needle/Totem - I ran one Needle maindeck, and boarded a Totem for Maverick/DnT's. Didn't need to use it since i got paired up against 4 RUG Delver decks -_-

[Greenpoe]

After some test, Energy Field is a 4 of.
We want always to see 2 in a match. (one is lost somehow, always)

Also Porphyry Nodes is not that helpfull unless it is landed at turn 1-2.

but packing just one makes this almost impossible (unless you waste a tutor. but to tutor just to gain time? mm)

Overall I find Energy Field, very often, even too often, not to be better than a Propaganda (goblin, tribal, maverick, etc.) + (4 Swords to Plowshares anyway)

Perhaps a split 2 Propaganda 2 Energy Field?

and yes: Jace and any other planeswalker are just terrible. EF and Propaganda just keep you safe, not your walkers... also after SB, when you pack 4 Leyline of Sanctity you are the only one safe from burns...
definitly no walkers here

last one from tests: I can't decide myself between Pithing Needle and Cursed Totem (both as 1x in MD). Perhaps I'm more prone to Totem
Did someone else lose his sleep here? :D

But Propaganda sounds weak vs. Maverick. They just need to swing with one huge Knight.

I've been testing 4 Energy Field and been pretty happy with it. That said, there's no Karakas for the sake of the stronger manabase to make it harder to deal with the Field - which is reasonable given how common Wasteland is anyway. It's also really amusing to watch the struggle to deal with one Field, then I just drop another one. Field is a skill-intensive card, though - you have to figure out when the optimal time to play it is in each matchup.

[Poron]

Propaganda is way weaker and you're right. But also infinitly more solid. Also my version plays 4x Swords and 4x Rest in Peace.
the big Knight is never a problem.

At least 1xMD Propaganda for me

also great news about the planeswalker.. didn't really know that.
So, Leyline of Sanctity will save our planeswalkers from burns too? I start reconsidering the whole strategy then.. (with Web of Inertia it becomes a total lock)

[Poron]

the best part in the fun of playing this deck is how many players are not prepared to deal with enchantments at all..

[Koby]

the best part in the fun of playing this deck is how many players are not prepared to deal with enchantments at all..

This is true. Watch out for Krosan Grip tho.

[gkraigher]

This is true. Watch out for Krosan Grip tho.

Tranquil Grove was always underrated in my opinion. But in all seriousness, I am going to add at least 1-2 back to natures into my RUG Delver Sideboard for this deck and Enchantress.

Hopefully the Red Green Charm will destroy an enchantment and do something else good.

[Griselpuff]

I don't think RUG needs any more toys to play with...

I played a match against UB Tezzeret and it's actually a pretty tricky matchup and made me want more Pithing Needles. Since they're good in general, I decided to have 1 MD and 2 SB.

I also completely agree about Energy Field as a 4 of now. So many decks just straight up scoop to E Field + RIP that it's silly not to play 4. I'm also playing RIP as a 4 of, after running into too many Abrupt Decay decks (BG Pox and BUG). That means that the Swords are either being taken out entirely, or going to the board. I think that Porphyry Nodes is actually a lot better than people give it credit for (it can kill shroud creatures!)

I also like Cursed Totem, but I'm not sure I want 4 Needle effects. I also decided to add a Karakas to the board since there are MUs where the 23rd land is wanted, but I want the MD to have a strong B2B plan with minimal nonbasics.

[Spigore]

Hey all,

From testing it seems the deck has a problem facing an opposing Jace. This has also been said by Carsten.
Detention Sphere is a good way to get rid of him. However, when CB is up, tutoring a Humility/Helm is a solution as well.
Adding Needle to the side seems a good addition to shut him up.

Next to that Humility nullifies Teeg and other hatebears (Yes, with Teeg out, you can't play Humility). Also Humble might be something, but in my Humble opinion "No!".

Going for a 1-3 split on Porphyry Nodes and Plowshares seems fine, but dropping the Plowshares entirely? If you wanna go there, 2 Nodes will be needed to at least have a possibility go get rid of creatures. Give or take a singleton Supreme Verdict or Humility. But the Verdict or Humility won't be allowed by mr. Teeg.

Playing a single Helm a possibility?

My latest pile for testing;

1 Seat of the Synod
8 Island
1 Plains
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Karakas
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
2 Detention Sphere
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Back to Basics
1 Pithing Needle
2 Porphyry Nodes
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

SIDEBOARD
1 Detention Sphere
2 Flusterstorm
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Arcane Laboratory
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Luminarch Ascension
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Humility
2 Pithing Needle

[Poron]

after some match Luminarch Ascension is a 2x MD.

it is the alternate WC we need. it doesn't suffer to Null Rod and if they play Pithing Needle they have Top and Helm before. Or even if we distract the opponent on ascension, it has already done its job.

Also, it accompanies just too well with our 4 Energy Field MD not to be considered.
Overall it helps a lot with our bad matchups (BUG, miracle control, etc.)

Also Moxes are needed here, in place of sol lands. a turn 1 Luminarch, sometime, makes the opponent even waste his FoWs..

the only problem with Moxes is card disadvantage.. and that with 4 Tutors start to hurt.

[Spigore]

I don't see why you would want to play Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond to power out Luminarch Ascension. Early game I think the focus should be on safely establishing CounterTop, RiP/Field and fiend off early discard.

[Poron]

the moxes are not for Luminarch alone. a T1 Counterbalance + turn 2 top (activable in the same turn) has a whole different power.
or even a turn 0 RiP
these are all moves that a sol land doesn't allow..

but yes, moxes are big card disadvantage so.. we're probably tossing them

I keep my opinion on Luminarch. In many matches I find myself with a EF and nothing to win. to play a Luminarch gives the opponent a good pressure (and a good diversion from RiP/Field/CB)

LA is just good, any time it lands

[Spigore]

It's a good alternate win indeed. I don't see any MD slots which could be substituted. The problem is actually, I'm stuggling quite hard to pack a solid 60. My testing next Saturday should give me a lot of info.
Care to share your list with the rest, Poron?

[Griselpuff]

Spigore, if you're going the 4 CB route, PLEASE PLEASE play 4 E tutors. Here's mine:

// Lands
8 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Spells
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
3 [US] Energy Field
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [US] Back to Basics
2 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
1 [RTR] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Energy Field
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 1 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [MM] Energy Flux


I've decided cards like Humility, Ensnaring Bridge and Moat aren't needed with the E-field combo. You have 4 D-Spheres for S&T, making it a really favorable MU. I'm not convinced Luminarch is good MD because Angel tokens go to the GY, making you lose E-field unless RIP is out, which is just win more.

[Poron]

there are many conditions where Luminarch is not win more.
Chalice of the Void@1 locking your E-tutors
an opponent's Counterbalance (with the same effect)
a Meddling Mage on Detention Sphere.
a Null Rod locking your main WC

a cc2 is a good alternate WC it also avoids big part of the hate

RiP+Field is a "tempo gainer" not a combo.
tempo which is sweet to be spent getting the proper mana + Helm or a Luminarch for a few turns. A "charged" Ascension is 2x 4/4 fliers every turn.. that's gg

anyway here's my list

4Energy Field
4Rest in Peace
1Helm of Obedience (I don't really want to see this more than 30 seconds before the win)
2Luminarch Ascension
3Stifle (I owe this guy a lot, really. Qasali Pridemage, EE@2, many tricks)
3Counterbalance
4Sensei's Divining Top
3Swords to Plowshares
4Force of Will
2Spell Pierce
4Brainstorm
1Detention Sphere
1Pithing Needle
3Enlightened Tutor
3Wasteland
4Tundra
4Flooded strand
2Polluted Delta
1Windswepth Heat
2Plains
6Island

Wasteland + Stifle are just great for the tempo strategy with Luminarch. It just.. works fine (not great, but fine)

[gkraigher]

akatsuki,

Your list is really starting to look good now, I wasn't a huge fan before, but this one I like. I like that you cut down the non-basic lands in your deck. I know you swear by seat of the synod, but I would like to see that go. You've mentioned the games where you had to e-tutor for it, I would have just mulliganed. I am not affraid to mulligan, and this deck has a lot of ways to fight back, even with a 4 card starting hand. Love the addition of the 1 energy flux.

[Greenpoe]

I agree with gkraigher. Your list looks really good except the Seat of the Synod should be an Island. Enlightened Tutor for Seat of the Synod in a 1-land hand would be occasionally useful, but consider that you're going through card disadvantage just to get a land...which can easily be Wastelanded. Then they've seriously hurt you - you're down a card and lost a land and now stuck with 1-land. Plus, since you have 8 Islands, if you have a 1-land hand, there's a fairly good chance that you won't even be able to cast your E-tutor. If you have 2 or more lands in your opener, then you shouldn't need E-Tutor to get a third land - you'll usually have Brainstorm/Top for that, or just draw into more lands naturally. Plus there's other random hate you might run into (Null Rod would stop Top and your Seat; Deed wipes away the land) and its bad with the Back to Basics as well.

[Koby]

Tutoring for Seat with a 1-lander means you have access to :w:, which is a total of 3 lands in the deck.

[Griselpuff]

Hmm, I like the Wasteland argument... I'm starting to agree more. I guess the only thing is there are certain CMC 0 spells out there running around, but that's a pretty minor point.

A couple other cards I decided to try in the SB:

Warmth <--- for burn
Aura of Silence <--- for Affinity/Tezzeret/Enchantress etc.

[gkraigher]

If you like seat of the synod because you can tutor for it, why not play 1 land tax instead? You can e-tutor for that and get a much better effect. And its an easy card to sideboard out on the play.

[TkDodo]

I agree with gkraigher. Your list looks really good except the Seat of the Synod should be an Island. Enlightened Tutor for Seat of the Synod in a 1-land hand would be occasionally useful, but consider that you're going through card disadvantage just to get a land...which can easily be Wastelanded. Then they've seriously hurt you - you're down a card and lost a land and now stuck with 1-land. Plus, since you have 8 Islands, if you have a 1-land hand, there's a fairly good chance that you won't even be able to cast your E-tutor. If you have 2 or more lands in your opener, then you shouldn't need E-Tutor to get a third land - you'll usually have Brainstorm/Top for that, or just draw into more lands naturally. Plus there's other random hate you might run into (Null Rod would stop Top and your Seat; Deed wipes away the land) and its bad with the Back to Basics as well.

Totally agree. Your hand must be perfect to keep a 1-lander with E.Tutor for the land. If you are willing to accept the -1 from card from E.Tutor, you can just as easily take the mulligan and not loose a turn where you cannot play Top or Spell Pierce or your T2 play because you need to invest to find your land.


Tutoring for Seat with a 1-lander means you have access to :w:, which is a total of 3 lands in the deck.

I count 13 :w: sources, but whatever. It's still not a good play.

[Koby]

I count 13 :w: sources, but whatever. It's still not a good play.

I was excluding fetches, but yes. I'm only ever likely to keep a one-lander when it's just basic Island. It's too vulnerable to Wasteland otherwise.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Hmm, I like the Wasteland argument... I'm starting to agree more. I guess the only thing is there are certain CMC 0 spells out there running around, but that's a pretty minor point.

A couple other cards I decided to try in the SB:

Warmth <--- for burn
Aura of Silence <--- for Affinity/Tezzeret/Enchantress etc.

If the slot is meant for a 0cc Tutor target, I'd go with Engineered Explosives; If a 0cc mana source is needed, I'd put in 1 Chrome Mox.

[gkraigher]

Warmth <--- for burn
Aura of Silence <--- for Affinity/Tezzeret/Enchantress etc.

Warmth isn't needed for burn because you have energy field. Its a sub par choice to Chill anyway, as warmth is only good vs. burn; chill is good vs. burn and charbelcher.

Aura of Silence is good enough to add to the board. Its useful against against multiple decks, and in the mirror.

Speaking of the mirror, Detention Sphere is an interesting card. You want to be able to pitch it to force of will. At the same time, you want to be able to target opponent's detention spheres. Maybe you want to keep the 2 main deck, cut the two from the board and add Aura of Silence and Oblivion Ring. Any deck where you will want more Spheres, you will be reluctant to pitch them to force of will anyway.


8 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [UNH] Plains


// Spells
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
3 [US] Energy Field
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [US] Back to Basics
1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
1 [RTR] Pithing Needle
1 Land Tax

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Energy Field
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [MM] Energy Flux

[lochlan]

I've decided cards like Humility, Ensnaring Bridge and Moat aren't needed with the E-field combo.

Humility is absolutely neccessary. I'm not running it for attackers, where you seem to imply it is best. It's for problematic utility creatures like Pridemage, Mangara, etc. (And, in particular, for decks with a critical mass of utility creatures, like Maverick and D&T) Pithing Needle helps fill this role but isn't enough IMO.

[gkraigher]

Humility is absolutely neccessary. I'm not running it for attackers, where you seem to imply it is best. It's for problematic utility creatures like Pridemage, Mangara, etc. (And, in particular, for decks with a critical mass of utility creatures, like Maverick and D&T) Pithing Needle helps fill this role but isn't enough IMO.

you have pithing needle main, cursed totem and pithing needle in the board.

[Freggle]

From playing an Enchantress versions of this I can say with a good deal of certainty that Pithing Needle > Stifle The only thing that Stifle does that you want that Pithing Needle does not is Stifles storm, but you have Leyline of Sanctity for that.

Needle will be better at:

-Top
-Port
-Fetches
-Batterskull

Anything that keeps happening.

Stifle just surpirses, but will likely cause you to play slower which you will find you can not afford to do.

I also have to warn you about the amount of card disadvantage you are packing.

Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage and a tempo loss. It should not be a 4 of no matter how good it feels from time to time.

Force of Will is card disadvantage.

Therefore, I have no idea what you intend to cast with Chrome Mox after all of that.

Even playing the absurd Card Advantage engine of enchantress I can tell you that deck can not even support that kind of cards disadvantage.

Different subject, what is Energy Flux fighting? Whatever it is if your running counterbalance / top & Needles there has got to be a better answer.

I know Counterbalance / top is really good, and fun to play (one of my secret favs.) but I do not think it's right for what you are really trying to do.

Right now you are a tempo deck that gives your opponent tempo. That is not good.

What about something like this?

Quality (4)

4 Brainstorm

Disruption / Tempo(11)
4 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics
2 Terminus / Wrath of God


The Locks (8)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Porphyry Nodes
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace


The Wins (3)
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Vendilion Clique

Lands(20)

10 Island
5 Plains
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

This is a step more into a blue tempo control deck, and a step away from quasi enchantress.

[lochlan]

you have pithing needle main, cursed totem and pithing needle in the board.

Harmonic Sliver says hello.

[Hanni]

I'm really not liking the route that this deck is going into. I'm not criticizing anyone for tuning the deck to what works for them, but I just find so much of it being cute or cool, rather than being the most effective.

Energy Field warps this deck into something it doesn't really want to do. Being blue and pitching to FoW is great, and being 2cc is really good for curve reasons. Running less fetchlands makes your Brainstorms and Top activations alot worse. Running less fetchlands makes your manabase less stable.

Relying on Energy Field without an RIP in play prevents you from countering spells and casting setup spells like Enlightened Tutor (unless you want to lose it). Without RIP, the card is just bad... it's possible to make it work without RIP, but it cripples this decks development during the game, and in general deck construction. Running a normal amount of fetchlands also cripples your development with a Field on the board (without RIP).

Outside of direct damage (Burn and Tendrils), Ensnaring Bridge does the exact same thing as Field; preventing damage. Field doesn't stop Emrakul from making you sac permanents, and it doesn't stop the opponents creatures from killing Jace (for those who run him). Bridge does. Burn and Tendrils are both covered by Counterbalance (and Force and Pierce). An actual softlock with Field requires a combo with RIP. Bridge is a standalone card that does what it needs to do all by itself; no combo required. You can also run less copies, since you only actually benefit from having 1 in play at a time.

I also don't get why people want to structure the deck to be some late-game control deck. You lack the actual card advantage of a deck like Miracles by running temporary removable stalls (Energy Field), card disadvantage tutors, and multiple cards that are dead in multiples when you are capable of protecting them (or the opponent doesn't have removal). Why would you want to go to the late-game anyway? If you can assemble the RIP/Field lock, you could instead assemble RIP/Helm and just win. This deck isn't Thopters... you don't have to spend several turns making tokens and gaining life to stabilize, and then several more turns to actually win. You don't have to crank out a rediculous amount of mana every turn in the process, and neither card is dead on its own (Helm moreso, but still). The sheer amount of time that Thopter's takes to actually win is directly related to how much control it needs to use, and why the deck is so slow and durdly. RIP/Helm completely removes that element by winning immediately.

I can understand wanting to run Jace, for its superior dig and its ability to draw a bunch of cards, especially if you can protect it with a Bridge. It pitches to Force, and has other uses too. I don't understand why it would be preferable to Helm as a win condition though, when they both cost 4 mana (Teeg), and you could tutor up removal for Needle/Revoker instead of needing an alternate win condition.

If you want to play the late-game control style because Helm is "slow" at 4+1 mana, why not speed up your ability to get to 4+1 mana instead? Sneak Attack costs 4+1 mana too, but I don't see them running 1 Sneak Attack and only 4 targets for it. I'm not saying this deck needs to be like Sneak and Show, but turning the deck from a combo/control deck to a control deck with a combo win condition seems fail to me. Your only means of card advantage is Counterbalance, you have card disadvantage with E Tutor, and your win condition only requires 4+1 mana on the winning turn... you get no benefit from dumping 7-8 mana into an Entreat the Angels.

I'm also not sure what's wrong just RIP/Helm; why does this deck need additional/diverse win conditions? Few to no decks in the format are running Surgical or Extirpate in the main, and the only tools that actually shut down the combo are easily dealt with using your E Tutor toolbox. I mean... what's really out there in peoples maindecks? Gaddock Teeg and Phyrexian Revoker? Both of those sounds answerable with either Swords to Plowshares, Porphyry Nodes, Detention Sphere, or Humility (or preemptively good old Force of Will, Counterbalance, etc). Nothing else is actually stopping your combo once it's assembled, and removal is dealt with preemptively or through finding a replacement combo piece.

Instead of trying to softlock an opponent out of the game with Field/RIP, CB/Top, etc... you only need your tools to stall for a few turns; long enough for you to develop your manabase, cast all of your setup spells while countering specific bombs, and to then win the game at 4+1 mana. What benefit does this long and grindy control game actually provide? Miracles is a better control deck, period... and trying to mimic one or two pieces from that deck is a bad way to compensate. Why make a worse version of Miracles?

This deck has access to more than enough tools to not need to wait 10+ turns before going off. Unlike Sneak Attack, you win immediately once you pay the 4+1 mana. You can run enough redundancy to make sure an RIP sticks before you do so. And in the situations where you can't, Field is so much worse than Ensnaring Bridge, or even Humility. I bring up Humility because it is the answer you want when playing against decks with Qasali, Revoker, or Teeg (before Teeg comes into play). Sure, it's not a lock, and you may get hit for 3-4 damage a turn by some 1/1's, but that 3-4 damage a turn is not going to be able to race you before you drop a Helm and win. When Teeg is in play, that's when you tutor up a Sphere or Nodes, or cast a Swords to Plowshares. If they have Karakas, you just want until the EOT before going off. If they have Mom to protect Teeg, you're grabbing Nodes or Needle instead of Sphere (Needle if you have a Plow in hand and want immediate results). This deck has so many answers to the few problems it can run into that it seems criminally wrong to rely on a card as awful as Energy Field to try and "lock" an opponent instead.

Unfortunately, you all seem pretty sold on Energy Field, so my lengthy post is probably falling on deaf ears. At least my opinion has been stated, and I'd be more than happy to engage in further discussion about the issue if someone wants to (as long as no flames or personal attacks ensue).

[lochlan]

Tendrils

Energy Field doesn't actually do anything vs. Tendrils of Agony, it causes "life loss" rather than "damage."

[Spigore]

Very interesting post Hanni, thanks for sharing!
I'm definately going to put your food for thought on paper and work on an alternate list next to the other one.
For the moment, I can only brainfart about the deck. Time for testing is up this weekend! :wink:

[Poron]

From playing an Enchantress versions of this I can say with a good deal of certainty that Pithing Needle > Stifle The only thing that Stifle does that you want that Pithing Needle does not is Stifles storm, but you have Leyline of Sanctity for that.

Needle will be better at:

-Top
-Port
-Fetches
-Batterskull

Anything that keeps happening.

Stifle just surpirses, but will likely cause you to play slower which you will find you can not afford to do.

I also have to warn you about the amount of card disadvantage you are packing.

Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage and a tempo loss. It should not be a 4 of no matter how good it feels from time to time.

Force of Will is card disadvantage.

Therefore, I have no idea what you intend to cast with Chrome Mox after all of that.

Even playing the absurd Card Advantage engine of enchantress I can tell you that deck can not even support that kind of cards disadvantage.

Different subject, what is Energy Flux fighting? Whatever it is if your running counterbalance / top & Needles there has got to be a better answer.

I know Counterbalance / top is really good, and fun to play (one of my secret favs.) but I do not think it's right for what you are really trying to do.

Right now you are a tempo deck that gives your opponent tempo. That is not good.

What about something like this?

Quality (4)

4 Brainstorm

Disruption / Tempo(11)
4 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics
2 Terminus / Wrath of God


The Locks (8)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Porphyry Nodes
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace


The Wins (3)
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Vendilion Clique

Lands(20)

10 Island
5 Plains
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

This is a step more into a blue tempo control deck, and a step away from quasi enchantress.

I was exactly thinking the same. Porphyry Nodes doesn't make sense 1x. It's great on ly if played in multiple because it needs to be always on the field.
and now I see lists with 4of! I agree on that but I prefer StP + EF for tricks-remotion and defense
Also, you probably forgot you Tutors..

[Poron]

Hanni, imho you have a good point on Ensnaring Bridge + Jace, but not about EF

after 100+matches I see that I aways want to land one except against combo (I side 3 out for Leyline of S.)
this deck NEEDS his 4-5 turns to build up defense from counters and to protect its RiP
at least a Countertop or something like that.

Also Etutor + Counterbalance is just huge. Can't cut tutors for any reasons. back to 4of

[Maëlig]

Hanni what's your list?

[Spigore]

Taking Hanni's post into consideration, I found my way to a somewhat weird mono-W Parfait list;

8 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Crystal Vein
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Humility
2 Porphyry Nodes
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
3 Tithe
56 Cards...

[Poron]

mm I wouldn't go back that much. The list is already quite solid (for a tier2-3 deck, anyway)

[Poron]

on Stifle, again: I won 3 matches last night just because of it.

once on a Qasali Pridemage (with his horde ready to fuck me and my Energy Field as my last barrier)
once on a Pernicious Deed. It would have brought me back to turn 0 ---> sure defeat
once on Academy Rector already sacrified with Cabal Therapy. Stifle and GG

and how many times it helped me agaisnt his fetchlands (when he would have fetched for basics) when I had B2B already in the board.

Stifle, to me, is an ummovable 3 of. I just can't count all the times I said "if I had a Stifle now..." just a great card here

[Oiolosse]

So, I was just getting into testing Thopters about a year ago when school slowed me down on MTG, but now I am excited about RIP/Helm.

I had a pile of alternates I was considering in Thopters and one alternate that I tested heavily toward the end was Lim-Dul's Vault. I know that you guys are not in black (I think, I've read most of the thread) but it was such an awesome tutor for me. It's usefulness outside of finding combo pieces shouldn't be underestimated. Looking for a CMC for CB? No CB, looking for FoW? Looking for Bridge? Sometimes you were just looking for land.

I agree with Freggle, 4 enlightened tutors is a bit much. Esp. if you are running 4 FoW. I had success with 3 LDV and 2 Enlightened Tutor, 4 Brainstorm and 3 Top.

I guess, the question would be, why else would we want to put ourselves into black?

[Greenpoe]

on Stifle, again: I won 3 matches last night just because of it.

once on a Qasali Pridemage (with his horde ready to fuck me and my Energy Field as my last barrier)
once on a Pernicious Deed. It would have brought me back to turn 0 ---> sure defeat
once on Academy Rector already sacrified with Cabal Therapy. Stifle and GG

and how many times it helped me agaisnt his fetchlands (when he would have fetched for basics) when I had B2B already in the board.

Stifle, to me, is an ummovable 3 of. I just can't count all the times I said "if I had a Stifle now..." just a great card here

This is a really good point - when Stifle is good, it falls somewhere between amazing (Stifling that T1/2 fetch, or Brainstorm->Stifle their post-fetch) and literally game-winning (like Stifling a storm trigger or stopping a Deed before you get the combo off). When it's bad, you just get rid of with Brainstorm/Force. Vs. S&T, you can Stifle their Annihilator trigger or Griselbrand ability, too, just in case you need a bit longer to win.

[Poron]

So, I was just getting into testing Thopters about a year ago when school slowed me down on MTG, but now I am excited about RIP/Helm.

I had a pile of alternates I was considering in Thopters and one alternate that I tested heavily toward the end was Lim-Dul's Vault. I know that you guys are not in black (I think, I've read most of the thread) but it was such an awesome tutor for me. It's usefulness outside of finding combo pieces shouldn't be underestimated. Looking for a CMC for CB? No CB, looking for FoW? Looking for Bridge? Sometimes you were just looking for land.

I agree with Freggle, 4 enlightened tutors is a bit much. Esp. if you are running 4 FoW. I had success with 3 LDV and 2 Enlightened Tutor, 4 Brainstorm and 3 Top.

I guess, the question would be, why else would we want to put ourselves into black?

I was definitly thinking of black

Vault and Duress, anyone? I was thinking of Gitaxian Probe because sometime it's great to see opponent's hand, but black does the same way better...
black, imho, has his chance here

[tsabo_tavoc]

So, I was just getting into testing Thopters about a year ago when school slowed me down on MTG, but now I am excited about RIP/Helm.

I had a pile of alternates I was considering in Thopters and one alternate that I tested heavily toward the end was Lim-Dul's Vault. I know that you guys are not in black (I think, I've read most of the thread) but it was such an awesome tutor for me. It's usefulness outside of finding combo pieces shouldn't be underestimated. Looking for a CMC for CB? No CB, looking for FoW? Looking for Bridge? Sometimes you were just looking for land.

I agree with Freggle, 4 enlightened tutors is a bit much. Esp. if you are running 4 FoW. I had success with 3 LDV and 2 Enlightened Tutor, 4 Brainstorm and 3 Top.

I guess, the question would be, why else would we want to put ourselves into black?

LDV is card disadvantage as well... Enlightened Tutor could find mana (Chrome Mox or Land Tax) and the appropriate CC for Counterbalance as well. I would not play a LDV unless I have 4 ETutors.

Black is awesome for Discard and sideboard hates. It might be worth splashing if you don't lean on Energy Field.

[Griselpuff]

I like E-Field because a lot of decks just auto scoop to it. Not the case for Bridge. I agree too that it synergizes with Jace, so perhaps it has a place in the SB (or MD if you MD Jace). Also, if you are losing your E-Field, you aren't playing it correctly. You should fetch before playing it if you have no RIP, and you should almost always wait for RIP. I've never had mana issues or anything like that due to E-Field. Also, it is true that E-Field is vulnerable to Emrakul. However, S&T is such a good MU with Nodes and D-Sphere that I'm not worried. The E-Fields go out in that MU, of course.

Stifle is interesting. I think it just has a lot more power, surprise and potential, but is less consistent than Needle due to E-tutors.

I also quickly removed Warmth for Chill before reading this. Agree on that point. I think D-Sphere just has so much more utility than O-Ring (I've killed 10 Faerie/Spirit tokens with one D-Sphere). The only downside is it's increased vulnerability to REB, and that should be mitigated via playing more D-Spheres, not less. Maybe when D-Sphere catches on, it might be time for some O-Rings to deal with the D-Spheres. Just remember that one D-Sphere owns 2 O-Rings (which I have also done before).

[Hanni]

I like E-Field because a lot of decks just auto scoop to it. Not the case for Bridge. I agree too that it synergizes with Jace, so perhaps it has a place in the SB (or MD if you MD Jace). Also, if you are losing your E-Field, you aren't playing it correctly. You should fetch before playing it if you have no RIP, and you should almost always wait for RIP. I've never had mana issues or anything like that due to E-Field. Also, it is true that E-Field is vulnerable to Emrakul. However, S&T is such a good MU with Nodes and D-Sphere that I'm not worried. The E-Fields go out in that MU, of course.

Yes, because you won't have any more fetchlands to play after dropping an E Field on turn 2, and you definitely won't need to cast Brainstorm or E Tutor to find RIP before they play something you want to counter (or that forces a card to go into your graveyard).

Why would people scoop to E Field (without RIP in play), but not Bridge? Hell, even with RIP, if your hand is low from Chrome Mox/E Tutor/FoW/dumping your permanents onto the board/etc, the situation isn't going to be any different. They cannot kill you until they remove it; simple as that. Bridge is a stand-alone aggro answer, where Field is a liability until you hit RIP (that also happens to negatively effect your development until you draw one).

[Poron]

Yes, because you won't have any more fetchlands to play after dropping an E Field on turn 2, and you definitely won't need to cast Brainstorm or E Tutor to find RIP before they play something you want to counter (or that forces a card to go into your graveyard).

Why would people scoop to E Field (without RIP in play), but not Bridge? Hell, even with RIP, if your hand is low from Chrome Mox/E Tutor/FoW/dumping your permanents onto the board/etc, the situation isn't going to be any different. They cannot kill you until they remove it; simple as that. Bridge is a stand-alone aggro answer, where Field is a liability until you hit RIP (that also happens to negatively effect your development until you draw one).

Hanni no one will ever play E Field on turn 2. Just Drop of Honey and just against Goblins.

Normal turn 2 of this deck is: Counterbalance or Top or cantrip EOT. You'll never cast anything serious on turn 2 (not even a RiP). it's just too soon

[Hanni]

So then one of the pros of Field is negated, cool. One of the few pros to Field was that it was capable of coming down sooner than Bridge, but if you're not dropping Field on turn 2... then yea, makes even less sense to me.

[Oiolosse]

So then one of the pros of Field is negated, cool. One of the few pros to Field was that it was capable of coming down sooner than Bridge, but if you're not dropping Field on turn 2... then yea, makes even less sense to me.

I feel you on Bridge. It is synergistic with card disadvantage, not many cards can claim that.

[Spigore]

Hanni,

I like your way of thinking. It is really putting up question marks.
However, are you testing a certain list?

[slave]

Just wondering if any of you have approached this from a "Storm-ish" kind of chassis?

I know the thread title says UW - but I've given it a quick go in a WB frame.
RiP & Helm with cards like Dark Rit, Culling the Weak and some fuel for it like Doomed Traveller and/or Myr Moonvessel.
Leyline of the Void & removal like StP & O-ring with E-tutor and some discard.
Lands are fetches, scrublands, ancient tomb, 20 total.
I've not worked hard on it or anything, but a turn two or three win is quite possible, which must be useful.
I've managed to get a turn 1 win in a short time testing, but that's a pretty unlikely event so I'll ignore it.

Anyone think this might be worth working on further?

[Poron]

may be I play wrongly the deck but I never find myself with less than 4-5 cards. let's say 4.

way too many for Bridge. A Meekstone at that point is even better...

[Poron]

Overall we keep on comparing Bridge with E Field without RiP.. but this deck runs 4 Rest in Peace
you can always land a EField rather soon (not too soon) and when you are able to land a Rest in Peace you get the same effectivness.

Or you can see EField like CA. you drop 1 Field to draw free 3-4 cards which lead to a second Field or a CounterTop/RiP better lock of some type.

Addiotionally, it pitches to FoW.

I'm definitly going to test Bridge tonight anyway

[Maëlig]

I've already said why I don't like EField.



you can always land a EField rather soon (not too soon) and when you are able to land a Rest in Peace you get the same effectivness.

Except landing the EField means you can't effectively look for RiP by brainstorming / fetching (with top in play) / tutoring it. So you're basically hoping to draw it naturally while your opponent builds up his board position until he gets rid of EField and alpha-strikes you. Doesn't seem very reliable to me.

[Poron]

we play 4 RiP and 4 Tutor. When can't we get a RiP if we need it?

that's a fantasy situation anyway..

[igri_is_a_bk]

Isochron Scepter would allow you to play Tutor, Brainstorm, and Swords with only Field in play. Just sayin'.

[Poron]

imho we're building on the sand. just try a tenth of matches and tell me (if you use the 4RiP+4tutor setup) if there 1 single match where you can't lie a RiP

I don't say that EBridge is a weak choice. it's indeed a fine choice but it has its pro and cons. I'll start trying a 2-1 split

[Greenpoe]

may be I play wrongly the deck but I never find myself with less than 4-5 cards. let's say 4.

way too many for Bridge. A Meekstone at that point is even better...

Yeah, Legacy is a gauntlet run by 2 and 3 power creatures. If you want a Force ready (Blue card+FoW), then that means you're letting all kinds of threats hit you with Bridge out...Web of Intertia is probably better than Bridge (plus it pitches to Force). But Energy Field is better overall, unless you want a split (3 Field, 1 Web) or something.

[Poron]

that's it.. I never find myself with less than 3 cards every time (I run Stifle, FoW, Brainstorm..) all cards that need to be hold to be effective.

btw greenpoe. I'm still very sorry for yesterday but girlfriend was a total pain in this ass with helping her

[Griselpuff]

Stop bashing on Energy Field until you actually play with it. As I said, you almost always want to wait until you have a RIP or are about to die. In which case, you've already used your tutors/fetches/brainstorms and want to buy a few extra turns.

[ahg113]

Stop bashing on Energy Field until you actually play with it. As I said, you almost always want to wait until you have a RIP or are about to die. In which case, you've already used your tutors/fetches/brainstorms and want to buy a few extra turns.

What he said.

Not having read pages and pages of back story, but Energy Field is legit.

With an anecdotal story with a deck that isn't TIER 1... Was playing against U/W with wishless Belcher and it completely shut me out the game with my 75. My only hope was to miracle a Reforge the Soul in order to kill the card, but when the opponent landed a RiP, I was effectively on the "I hope my opponent decks before I do" plan. Since he was playing blue and drawing cards outside his draw step, this was mathematically feasible.

G1 - Belch win
G2 - Energy Field cast after I play a turn 2 Belcher for turn 3 activate :(
G3 - Attack him down to 9 then he plays Energy Field :(

The card is better than bad, although it is susceptible to be removed at inopportune times. (But what card isn't?)

Cheers,
bah humbug

[Greenpoe]

btw greenpoe. I'm still very sorry for yesterday but girlfriend was a total pain in this ass with helping her

No prob, I'm just glad we got to discuss the lists. I started running 3 Nodes and I've actually been pretty impressed, despite how bad it looks on paper it plays out well. When you drop it at the right time, it's really solid- getting around shroud/protection is nice. Also goes well when you have an Energy Field but no RiP so you can slowly wipe the field (and make them not want to drop more creatures as well).

[Poron]

About Nodes, again: it gives another sense to EField even without RiP.
those 3-4 turns gained, wipe the board of the threaths...

Honestly I've got another big problem. My set of counter is:
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle

I find the weakest card here to be Spell Pierce, but Daze is too much tempo loss.

Can we discuss what could be the best counter in place of Pierce? Flusterstorm? Dispel? plain Counterspell?

[Griselpuff]

Pierce has been great for me, especially with decks like UB Tezzeret that are running around.

[(nameless one)]

How has Porphyry Nodes been for you? Would you add more or fully remove it?

[Griselpuff]

It's great with Jace and E-Field so I wouldn't cut it. I'm playing 2 atm and 0 Swords, so I wouldn't go down to 1 unless you add Swords (which has been underperforming, E field + Nodes or RIP is just that good).

[Poron]

It's great with Jace and E-Field so I wouldn't cut it. I'm playing 2 atm and 0 Swords, so I wouldn't go down to 1 unless you add Swords (which has been underperforming, E field + Nodes or RIP is just that good).

someone is playing Jace here, then.. what's the feedback with it?

[Griselpuff]

In some matchups it's obviously amazing, but I don't like the dis-synergy with Energy Field + RIP so I keep it in the board.

[Freggle]

someone is playing Jace here, then.. what's the feedback with it?

If want to know more about how that works I'd read up on Athens Blue (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22350_Legacy_Top_8_At_SCG_Open_Cincinnati_With_Athens_Blue.html)

[Poron]

funny report but I can't see the connection with our deck.. :|

[Poron]

opponent's CB is something that totally wrecks us. just 1-2cc

Who plays CB nowdays? we and Miracle. what about Spell Snare then? Miracle doesn't see Spell Pierce as a threath.

it should be 2x each, imho

[Greenpoe]

MD Snares sounds wrong. Snare is narrow, Pierce covers lots of ground. I wouldn't say that Miracles doesn't care about Pierce. Pierce will stop their Top, CB, Jace, Entreat the Angels, etc. unless they wait until they have 2 extra mana up (which would be a massive tempo boost for you). I understand that in the late game they could be dead, but Miracles still plays expensive cards in terms of CMC (Jace/Entreat). I wouldn't make MD changes just because of this one MU, anyway, and even if you were to, I would just add the 4th Pierce rather than add Snares. I agree that Miracles can be a very awkward matchup, since you both can just counter or invalidate each-other's win-cons.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Pierce would definitely be better than Snare. Although, I think counterspells are generally pretty bad in this deck. It has the feel of a more permanent-based approach. They definitely can be good, but not in most matches. I've been playing this deck for about a week or so, and have been tweaking as I've been going. I'd like to share what I've landed on so far, because I am having a lot of success with it.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
3 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Helm of Obedience
4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
4 [MR] Talisman of Progress
3 [US] Energy Field
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [RTR] Detention Sphere
2 [AVR] Terminus

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [RTR] Supreme Verdict

Here are some random thoughts I've had while playing. Other UW decks are bad match-ups. Miracles has beat me a majority of the time, and Goblins can be rough without Swords to stop an early Lackey. Although, I think Energy Field is a good card in a majority of the matches. I'm not sure why all the hate on it. It will buy you time, or get a counter out of their hand. In can also just beat some decks if you don't let them Wasteland you. Admittedly, not the easiest thing to control. But decks like Merfolk and Goblins will use their Wastelands early, especially if they have Vial, so it's not as much of a worry against those decks as Maverick. I haven't played Mav very much, so I'm not sure what needs to be changed for that pairing. All I can say is I won easily with a combo oriented draw. I'll also say Cursed Totem is very harsh for them and protects your combo from Pridemage like a champ.

Basically, my sb idea for some DtB go like this.

Goblins: -4 Force of Will, +2 Terminus, +2 Supreme Verdict
Maverick: -4 Force of Will, -1 Jace, +2 Terminus, +2 Supreme Verdict, +1 Cursed Totem
RUG: -4 Force of Will, -1 Energy Field, -1 Bridge, +2 Terminus, +2 Supreme Verdict, +2 Spell Pierce
Miracle: -2 Terminus, -2 Energy Field, -1 Bridge, +3 Counterbalance, +2 Spell Pierce
Blade Control: Dunno, never played it... I'd want more creature removal than Miracle, but something close to that.
Omniscience: -4 Talisman, -2 Terminus, -2 Energy Field, -1 Bridge, +3 Counterbalance, +2 Aura of Silence, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Flusterstorm
Sneak Attack: -4 Talisman, -2 Terminus, -2 Energy Field, -1 Bridge, +3 Counterbalance, +2 Aura of Silence, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Pithing Needle

Reasoning.

Goblins: I want to deal with the board more than the stack.
Maverick: Same.
RUG: Card disadvantage is terrible against this deck, and I already have Tutor. When they get ahead, you lose. Besides only their counters are good enough to Force.
Miracle: WE have to be aggressive here. It's almost like we have to out-tempo them with our counters, or they'll take over.
Blade: They're more aggressive, so removal would need to stay in.
Omni: The Talisman can be pretty slow, while this match-up isn't. Leave in Bridge to try to protect from Emrakul, and Energy Field for the Grapeshot kill.
Sneak Attack: Take out Energy Field because it sucks against Emrakul.

These are all pretty initial thoughts, but I have been winning a lot with this list online. It's definitely a weird deck to play, because most cards are completely irrelevant against us. There are very few answers to enchantments being played, and I really like taking advantage of little niches like that. While playing, I let a lot of stuff through to clear it out with Terminus, or lock them down with Bridge or Field, even while their board is full of guys. Anyways, thoughts?

[Freggle]

funny report but I can't see the connection with our deck.. :|

Its a counter based blue deck that ran Energy Field and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. The question was how has Jace worked in this deck, and previously I talked about how it doesn't make much sense.

It looks like i'm wrong because the two were run in Athens Blue. Perhaps that write-up doesn't give you too much information, but I'm sure you can Google it to find out why it did work, and what were the other keys to it functioning. I see Shackles in their list. You have to ask yourself what role did Shackles play in their list, and what is our upgrade.

Reading more about Athens Blue will only make this deck better.


Here are some random thoughts I've had while playing. Other UW decks are bad match-ups. Miracles has beat me a majority of the time, and Goblins can be rough without Swords to stop an early Lackey. Although, I think Energy Field is a good card in a majority of the matches. I'm not sure why all the hate on it. It will buy you time, or get a counter out of their hand. In can also just beat some decks if you don't let them Wasteland you. Admittedly, not the easiest thing to control. But decks like Merfolk and Goblins will use their Wastelands early, especially if they have Vial, so it's not as much of a worry against those decks as Maverick. I haven't played Mav very much, so I'm not sure what needs to be changed for that pairing. All I can say is I won easily with a combo oriented draw. I'll also say Cursed Totem is very harsh for them and protects your combo from Pridemage like a champ.

Anyways, thoughts?

I appreciate the work and detail. I have to ask though with all the issues with tribal what does this list have over an enchantress based list?

The below list wrecks Gobos and folks, and cares very little about Miracles.

Admittedly, Maverick is still only even to ever so slightly favorable. Stick a Pithing Needle post board you win.

Here is a list I'm rocking now:

3 Solitary Confinement
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Energy Field
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Sterling Grove
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Rest in Peace
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
2 Forbidden Orchard
2 Karakas
1 Island
2 Serra's Sanctum

Sideboard:
3 Choke
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Defense of the Heart
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sterling Grove

This list has more ramp, more resiliency, more damage hate, more attack hate, more draw, and more card selection. What do you gain from a blue based control list vs. this?

[Greenpoe]

Freggle, Elephant Grass looks like overkill. You've already got Solitary Confinement AND Energy Field plus tons and tons of draw.
I would go
-4 Elephant Grass
-1 Emrakul
-1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
+1 Helm of Obedience
+1 Wild Growth
+1 Rest In Peace
+1 Sterling Grove
+2 anything

Emrakul seems like a mediocre way to stop yourself from decking due to the lack of synergy with RiP and Emrakul will exile itself.

[Freggle]

Freggle, Elephant Grass looks like overkill. You've already got Solitary Confinement AND Energy Field plus tons and tons of draw.
I would go
-4 Elephant Grass
-1 Emrakul
-1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
+1 Helm of Obedience
+1 Wild Growth
+1 Rest In Peace
+1 Sterling Grove
+2 anything

Emrakul seems like a mediocre way to stop yourself from decking due to the lack of synergy with RiP and Emrakul will exile itself.

Greenpoe Thank you for your feedback. It's not my intention to derail this thread with an enchantress list. That is obviously not what the OP intended. It was to pose a question to make this deck better, or help me understand what I'm missing.

I have a thread for the enchantress concept here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24692-Developmental-Enchantress-with-Rest-In-Peace-Helm). I desperately need to update it and I intend to this week. (I have been busy with school and work as of late)

I would recommend that all feedback goes there to not muddle this thread.

I will answer your question here though.
Elephant Grass may appear to be overkill, but it is not. Elephant Grass gives this deck a tempo gain against sleigh and RUG like decks when an Energy Field can not be found or a Confinement lock formed. It is also crucial vs. black based discard strategies where redundancy is key, and grass completely locks them out. Also, it's a :g: CC enchantment the key cost to make the draw engine explosive, and that should never be overlooked. In other words that is a digging CC. Later when you have your lock down it's just an Ancestral Recall that stays for an extra turn.

Wheel of Sun and Moon is a win condition that happens to stabilize Energy Field well, and can be dropped under Teeg. (you don't draw out your opponent does.)

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is a fail safe win condition. When all else fails Emrakul. His reshuffle is nice from time to time, but his annihilator, extra turn and 15 flying damage is better. He is also good against Maverick when I bring in Defense of the Heart for fast wins.

Come join us in the other thread sometime.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I should preface most of these points by saying that I play three Enlightened Tutor, which increases my numbers, but I'm only going to look at hard copies of cards.



This list has more ramp

You play nine ramp cards (4 Sprawl, 3 Growth, 2 Sanctum) and I play eight (2 Tomb, 2 City, 4 Talisman). So yeah.



more resiliency

How? I play four Helm and four RiP, plus four FoW. You have two Sterling Grove for your three RiP, and only one Helm. Plus one back up win-con in Sigil. My deck is denser with ways-to-win.



more damage hate
I believe you are addressing your three Confinements and four Fields to my three Fields. Clearly your deck is going to romp aggro compared to mine, but that doesn't mean it's overall stronger.



more attack hate
Basically the same point as above, right? Toss in Elephant Grass for you and Bridge, Terminus, and Jace for me.



more draw
Now this is just wrong. You are dependent on an Enchantress effect resolving, of which you have eight, and one GSZ. I have four Top, four Brainstorm, three Tutor, and three Jace. My cards are just better on their own, which means off the top.



and more card selection
Same as above, but you also have Mirri's Guile. I still have more, though. If you toss in Sterling Grove, we tie at 14 cards each.



What do you gain from a blue based control list vs. this?
My version aims for closer to a 50% match up against more decks than yours. That's the biggest advantage. I also can tell it's faster than your version, because there's no way you assemble the combo nearly as fast as I can. You play one Helm and have no way to tutor for it, which is a major concern when looking over your list. My list also plays more solid cards, where yours is definitely a combo. You'll have a harder time rebuilding if shit hits the fan than I will. I definitely will try yours out with my own numbers. I suggest you try something similar with mine. It's hard to argue against a deck using anything besides numbers until you actually play it.

[Freggle]

My version aims for closer to a 50% match up against more decks than yours. That's the biggest advantage. I also can tell it's faster than your version, because there's no way you assemble the combo nearly as fast as I can. You play one Helm and have no way to tutor for it, which is a major concern when looking over your list. My list also plays more solid cards, where yours is definitely a combo. You'll have a harder time rebuilding if shit hits the fan than I will. I definitely will try yours out with my own numbers. I suggest you try something similar with mine. It's hard to argue against a deck using anything besides numbers until you actually play it.

This is very true, and I will. My goal wasn't to blow you up by any means it was to ask questions to make both strategies better.

For what it is worth if you intend to try the enchantress list there are 4 win conditions:

-Emrakul
-Sigil
-Helm
-Wheel (draw out)

On all the other points it semantics.

Resiliency: I find the more redundant a deck is the more resilient it is. I felt that this list was more redundant on damage hate, and can bounce back easily from a wall of counters or discard disruption.

Damage Hate: I don't think that makes it empirically stronger than your list. (It should be known I like your list) but it is more redundant.

Attack Hate: I did mean Elephant Grass, and I was wrong.

Draw: I felt the same way you did about Enchantress before I really played this list (or versions close to it) for the past half of the year. Enchantress lists with a full set of Argothians, Pressences, a GSZ and a guile. Will have the tools to push through MOST counter hate, or discard hate. In other words unless it's not your day (like any deck) you are sticking an enchantress. ...and the draw gets out of control fast.

Selection: I was thinking Guile and thinking once per turn, but overlooked Jace. This is slightly in your favor.

50% assessment: G1 yes. Counters give you a lot. G2 & 3 for me that is still up in the air.

If you are serious about trying this deck there are a LOT of nuances to it. I will try and type it up this week in the other thread. You may know them, but they can easily be overlooked.

Keep up the good work. I like where you are going, I just like asking questions because I learn more that way. Like overlooking Jace as card selection. The enchantress list is not theory-craft. I do play it, and I have been doing well with it.

[Goosen]

Basically, my sb idea for some DtB go like this.

Goblins: -4 Force of Will, +2 Terminus, +2 Supreme Verdict
Maverick: -4 Force of Will, -1 Detention Sphere, +2 Terminus, +2 Supreme Verdict, +1 Cursed Totem
RUG: -4 Force of Will, +2 Terminus, +2 Supreme Verdict
Miracle: -3 Energy Field, -2 Terminus, -2 Ensnaring Bridge, -1 Detention Sphere, +3 Counterbalance, +2 Aura of Silence, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Pithing Needle
Blade Control: Dunno, never played it... I'd want more creature removal than Miracle, but something close to that.
Omniscience: -2 Terminus, -1 Detention Sphere, -4 Talisman of Progress, +3 Counterbalance, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Flusterstorm
Sneak Attack: -3 Energy Field, -2 Terminus, -1 Talisman, -1 Detention Sphere, +2 Aura of Silence, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Pithing Needle

Reasoning.

Goblins: I want to deal with the board more than the stack.
Maverick: Same.
RUG: Card disadvantage is terrible against this deck, and I already have Tutor. When they get ahead, you lose. Besides only their counters are good enough to Force.
Miracle: WE have to be aggressive here. It's almost like we have to out-tempo them with our counters, or they'll take over.
Blade: They're more aggressive, so removal would need to stay in.
Omni: The Talisman can be pretty slow, while this match-up isn't. Leave in Bridge to try to protect from Emrakul, and Energy Field for the Grapeshot kill. Aura doesn't actually do anything, unfortunately.
Sneak Attack: Take out Energy Field because it sucks against Emrakul. D-Sphere can be good against SnT, but that's too random so I take it out.


Find some of your sb plan strange:

Goblin: Rather save Force of Will then Jace, TMS. One more answer to there early threats and the long game is yours anyway.
Maverick: Removing the Detention Sphere just fell bad. Your only answer to Teeg.
Miracle Why sb out Detention Sphere? Can take ETA or Jace. Must be better then Pithing Needle. What do you wanna namn? Sensei or Jace?
Omniscience/Sneak Attack: Ones again why Detention Sphere? "D-Sphere can be good against SnT, but that's too random so I take it out." This dasent make sense. Yeah its random so what? Its still a great card. And can be very good to play Enlightened Tutor for when u have CB in play to counter SaT. Against Omniscience maybe take out 1 Energy Field.

Talisman of Progress: What do your think about it?

[Poron]

Maverick isn't a matchup is a massacre. 4x Field + 4xPorphyry Nodes...

they don't even know what to target anymore. Overall with 1Pithing Needle MD and other 2 SB (Qasali Pridemage and other stuff)

[igri_is_a_bk]

Yeah, thanks for the sideboard suggestions. My card choices were right once, but I couldn't remember how I was sb'ing. Mostly bc I only get to play game ones normally. What I said was definitely all over the place. I agree with everything you suggested, except FoW against Goblins. When you have 4 Terminus, 2 Supreme Verdict, 3 Energy Field, 2 Ensnaring Bridge, and 3 Enlightened Tutor for games two and three, you don't really care about countering anything.

Sadly, I don't get to play many sb games, because people usually quit after losing game one. But, I did change up quite a few things with my sb strategy. I edited the post to reflect the changes. Basically, I was wrong with about half of what I said. I won't post more sb stuff until I play the deck quite a bit more. Going forward, I'm leaving in at least one Energy Field and at least one Ensnaring Bridge for most match-ups. Just because I play Tutor, and they can each randomly be life-savers.

Talisman is absolutely great, and I think is necessary for this deck to get the mana it needs. Wasteland will do its best to stop you from getting to four, but sol lands and Talisman battle that very well. Not sure if the CoT should be Tombs though.

[Goosen]

First of all either way you sb against Goblin you are a head w or wo FoW.

Rest in Peace and Energy Field is the way to beat Goblins with no answer to it, atleist the current version. And with as many of each you play that what you should try to assemble. And every other cards is just there to buy time or find the cards. Thats why you should keep FoW in so you maybe can stop a Goblin Lackey or Aether Vial start.

My sb plan with your deck against Goblin would be:

-4 Talisman of Progress -2 Helm of Obedience + 2 Terminus + 1 Pithing Needle + 2 Supreme Verdict + 1 Counterbalance (+1 Spell Pierce on play)

Maybe keep one more Helm in and skip the last card, that is not spec good but a blue card for FoW.

I take out 2 Helm because when you get RIP and EF you get all the time you need to win. Talisman's point I guess is to speed up Helm/Rip combo but thats not needed any more so you can take them out.

[Poron]

Again, I don't see why you're making strategies for straight goblin when all you have to do is land a Energy Field and watch him cry until you hardcast a Rest in Peace and he scoops...

he packs blasts and Krosan Grips? well you run 4 of each piece

[Goosen]

I am not sure if you are asking me but:

Dasent matter how big advantage you have over a deck you should always sb optimal.

Would say the same. Sure goblin get more game vs helm/rip but at the same time that slows him down. And helm/rip have answers to the goblin game plan aswell. The only big diffrent is your playing strategies should be more on the safe side and not as straight forwards as before.

Bringing in more Helms will not help against Krosan Grip because RIP is the weak part.

[Spigore]

Another #1 finish (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9242&iddeck=67498) for RIP Combo.
I think the MD Luminarch Ascension is a bit overdone.

Is it time that someone takes this deck to some of the bigger tournaments?

EDIT:

My current 75:

3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Back to Basics
2 Detention Sphere
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
4 Counterbalance
1 Pithing Needle
2 Porphyry Nodes
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Tundra
8 Island
1 Karakas

SIDEBOARD
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Detention Sphere
3 Flusterstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Luminarch Ascension
3 Swords to Plowshares

Mainboard changes: -1 Seat of the Synod +1 Fetchland
Sideboard changes: -1 Pithing Needle, -1 Porphyry Nodes, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Oblivion Ring

Mainboard change for some more resilience to landhate. Maybe the extra fetch should be an Island.
Sideboard changes to have a better game vs discard and storm. Also the 4th permanent removal in the way of Oblivion Ring to remove pesky permanents.


Still, not playing maindeck Plowshares feels strange, though I don't miss them.
Any thoughts?

[Poron]

I like igri's version a lot. much less controllish than ours (but all the big pieces are there too) and much more reliable to close faster the match.
it goes faster to 5 mana and it draws faster an Helm.

Perhaps we should just focus on the combo leaving the opponent free di whip us with the critters.. we just need to avoid his counters/disruptions

his list must focus on SB much more than ours but can also win way faster. important point

[Poron]

Pierce would definitely be better than Snare. Although, I think counterspells are generally pretty bad in this deck. It has the feel of a more permanent-based approach. They definitely can be good, but not in most matches. I've been playing this deck for about a week or so, and have been tweaking as I've been going. I'd like to share what I've landed on so far, because I am having a lot of success with it.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
3 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Helm of Obedience
4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
4 [MR] Talisman of Progress
3 [US] Energy Field
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [RTR] Detention Sphere
2 [AVR] Terminus

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [RTR] Supreme Verdict


like this. just at this point I'd try a more staxy version (with CotV@1) and obv without BS, ST and ET. a turn 1 Chalice still grants you 10+ turns tempo

[igri_is_a_bk]

This deck cannot beat any GB variant, which sucks soooo much because everybody is drooling over Abrupt Decay right now. I can't believe I've been paired against GB(x) three times in a row, but I've lost them all. I mean... Thoughtseize, IoK, Therapy, Hymn, Decay, Pulse, Deed? I guess GB was built to beat UW, so it is what it is. In fact, I think it's a lost cause of a match up, and not worth warping our deck to try a turnaround.

[Poron]

2 cards: Leyline of Sanctity, Sterling Grove..

[Koby]

2 cards: Leyline of Sanctity, Sterling Grove..

Still loses to Pernicious Deed, but I guess that's what countermagic and Pithing Needle are for.

[Poron]

with Sterling Grove and Leyline we just fear Deed and EE... it becomes a fair matchup

and BTW.. a Chalice@1 turns off all the hand disruptions of UBG and their countertop engine..

my list already packs anything i mentioned (but CotV) I have just to find room for SG and let's say it.. it was a card which already worth it

[igri_is_a_bk]

I don't see how you have time to search up Sterling Grove or Greater Auramancy. At least not in my UW version. I can get behind Leyline, but only as a four-of. Those aren't the types of cards I want to Tutor up. I want to tutor for win conditions, SDT, land or an answer about 99.9% of the time. Greater Auramancy and Leyline are preemptive cards that might stop something, but it's not a guarantee they'll actually affect the game.

SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem

...I'll try this and see how any BG matches go. With my luck today, I'll run into another one next time I play.

[Leftconsin]

I have been losing to Pernicious Deed HARD. I did beat a GBW deck, but only because he was misplaying hard the entire match. And his list was bad. Here is excerpt from a mini tournament report I thought about posting, but didn't:

Round 4 Junk - Game 1 This guy has Vindicates, Maelstrom Pulses, and Abrupt Decays coming out of every orifice. I think it was my 3rd Rest In Peace that lived long enough for me to shoot him with Helm. After game 1 he admits to only running 6 creatures. I wondered what they were. Game 2 he turn 2 Sinkholes my land. Fortunately I have Top and make my land drop. Turn 3 he Treasured Finds back Sinkhole, turn 4 he Sinkholes my Karakas and has a second Treasured Find. Fortunately I have Top and make my land drop. I hit Island number 2 with a Plains open and cast Counterbalance. For the rest of the game he only resolves an Abrupt Decay targeting the first RiP I play and Vindicate targeting Elspeth. The soldier token almost gets there, but I naturally draw the combo and resolve it all in one turn.

Those creatures by the way were some mix of at least 3 Jotun Grunts and at least 1 Deathrite Shaman. When building this deck by myself for the first time I did pull my copies of Greater Auramancy as potential cards to put in, but didn't include them because I also figured they'd be too slow. The only conclusion I have come to is V Clique, and lots of them to hopefully sweep those kind of threats away before we commit combo cards to the board. I am after all running 2 Karakas.

[Poron]

Now you understand my 3 stifle uh!!?

[Pelikanudo]

@Akatsuki mainly

Regarding this latest list:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9239&iddeck=67483

I've been reading the post and I've been thinking on approaches...
The thing is that I have some ideas more oriented to Hannis ones, why don't play more combo oriented? I also prefer to play Jaces and because of Abrupt decay raising and because also Miracle MAtch up which in numbers seems bad, etc.
but the thing is that that deck seems quite optimeze and I'd like to ask some questions so that I can go in that direction and test from something build.

1. Is this your latest build?
2. The swords seem un neccesary I tryed to build a Parafait and didnt seem great. I see that E.Field is played more and more, 4 really?
3. 4 Rest In Peace finally?
4. How you battle A.Decay? maybe redundancy of copies of cards is the key?
5. I've seen the E.Truths approach and seems good, I've been thinking in adding Repeals, it even is a +1 card in conjuntion to Senseis and helps ves quasaly and returns things, what about this?
6. I know Jace in that build seems unnnecesary, but please I need to play it can't we really afford this?
7. How about Miracle Match Up, numbers seem unfavourable.?
8. I'd like also to know ths siding strategies vs: MAverick, Miracles, Reanimator, SneakShow, Canadian, Team America variants, Goblins.


@Rest of peaople:

Let talikng abnout Combo and lets take a Sneak Show optimized list:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9161&iddeck=66976

The differences will be:
-8 Critters, -4Sneak,-4S.A.Tell, -1 P.Tutor

=

+4 Helm
+4 RestIn Peace
+2 Intuition
+4 E.Tutor
+3 E.Truth/Cunning Wish/ Or something to avoid Quasali AND Teeg maybe 2 E.TRuth 1 Aether SpellBomb
.
Notes:
- Intuition post side will not be ok as Surgicals will be useless because of Rest In Peace
- In here Misdirection can really shine as I've seen other Sneak List that have then.
- I would add maybe 1 more A.Tomb not sure.
- I can Include 2 or 3 jaces in here, maybe
- IMHO, By the moment, The aktsumis list should be on the post ans hould be updated accordinly, see B.Cooks Post from TES, the best one in the source.
This would be an idea! or at least a start.
Let mw know your thinkings!

[Griselpuff]

I've had trouble with BG matchups (Deed and Decay are really good against us) and I'm still in the process of tuning the deck. I'd say 4 RIP is necessary due to the presence of Decay.

Jace doesn't go well with the RIP + E Field combo, so I have him in the board. Everything is still in development, and if you read through the whole thread, you can see my list as it develops, I have basically made no major changes since my last posting of the deck.

I'm not really sure bounce is neccessary for the deck. Nodes and D-Sphere are great answers to board problems.

[AlmostGrown]

@ akatsuki, are you finding 2 Helms to be enough? it seems low to me.

[Poron]

4 Helms to me.
A well timed Duress screws us

[lochlan]

I've had trouble with BG matchups (Deed and Decay are really good against us) and I'm still in the process of tuning the deck. I'd say 4 RIP is necessary due to the presence of Decay...Nodes and D-Sphere are great answers to board problems.

FWIW O.Ring effects are horrible vs. Pernicious Deed. You O.Ring their Jace or their Deed (when they're tapped out), then you grind for awhile (because you're both slow) and eventually they have the EE or Deed#2 to blow up your O.Ring (and win conditions), getting back what they had previously lost.

O.Ring effects are amazing in this deck vs. just about all the problem permanents, but are a liability vs. GB

[Koby]

4 Helms to me.
A well timed Duress screws us

With Tops, E-tutor, Brainstorm, Counterbalance, or Force of Will - is it that hard to protect 1 or 2 copies of Helm?

[Griselpuff]

Helm is almost useless without RIP, so 4 is way overkill. 2 is definitely enough as you don't want to have one until you win, and there's so many ways to find/protect it

[Freggle]

Not sure if you guys saw this or if it is helpfull, but there was a deck tech on RIP/Helm deck this past weekends StarCity found here (http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_helm_combo_with_rob_.html).

It looks like it runs 2 Helm of Obedience as well.

[AlmostGrown]

So then Pithing Needle(s) are the out to Deed? Then there's abrupt decay, ugh... Faith's Shield is an answer to Abrupt Decay....

[Koby]

So then Pithing Needle(s) are the out to Deed? Then there's abrupt decay, ugh... Faith's Shield is an answer to Abrupt Decay....

Misdirection / Divert seems like better cards in response to Abrupt Decay. Or Greater Auramancy.

[csy]

igri I think I've been paired against you on modo quite a few times now, (playing bug control) name on here is the my name on modo. I agree, helm can't beat BUG control..

[AlmostGrown]

Maybe sideboard Nevermore to name Abrupt Decay, and then Needle Deed? Nevermore has splash damage vs other match ups too.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Misdirection and Divert are better than Nevermore and Greater Auramancy because those decks will also be packing discard, which can be sent back to hit Decay and Deeds in their hand. I'd still play at least one Needle in the board too.

[Poron]

I still think Sterling Grove is worth the spot

[alphastryk]

Hey guys, I've been doing a lot of work on this deck, and I figured I would share my current list and some thoughts.

First, the list (As of today):

Card Selection / Tutors:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor
Combo Pieces:
4 Rest in Peace
3 Energy Field
2 Helm of Obedience
Protection:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
Control Elements:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Counterbalance
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Detention Sphere
Manabase:
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
6 Island
2 Plains
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Flusterstorm
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Porphyry Nodes
2 Counterbalance
1 ?

I started with more of control shell, closer to Miracles and the list from Carsten Kotter's article. I found that some of the cards there just did not pull their weight, so I've been moving away from that.

This list is currently setup with a blue-heavy metagame in mind. Ancestral Vision is hugely powerful now, as the format is for the most part pretty slow. It lets you out-card Miracles, and you already have too many 'must counter's for them. I feel like I have a decent match-up against most decks, with the major exception being Pernicious Deed / Abrupt Decay decks. The combo has been relatively easy to assemble and protect, and gives you such a powerful endgame compared to Miracles. This deck has a lot going on, and the ability to take different lines and play control or combo as needed honestly feels like a Vintage deck to me.

Please let me know what y'all think, I'd be happy to discuss any card choices, changes, etc.

[Darkenslight]

I'm genuinely curious as to why the Ruins is in there. How are you finding the nonbo-ness once RiP is out?

[alphastryk]

I'm genuinely curious as to why the Ruins is in there. How are you finding the nonbo-ness once RiP is out?

So, I genuinely realize it looks awful, but I've had a lot of games vs control where you actually win by slowly milling them out with Helm, and having the ruins gives you that inevitability. I don't think it really costs you much to have the colorless land, and I can't think of anything else I want more.

Also, I left out the maindeck detention sphere form my list in that post. Edited now.

[Darkenslight]

So, I genuinely realize it looks awful, but I've had a lot of games vs control where you actually win by slowly milling them out with Helm, and having the ruins gives you that inevitability. I don't think it really costs you much to have the colorless land, and I can't think of anything else I want more.

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for answering.

[Pelikanudo]

I've been testing the Akatsumis list lately and seems strange to me how this works that it works,
(4 E.Field 4 RiP 4 balance, 1 p.nelde, 1 P.Nodes, 2 D.Sphere, 4 E.Tutor 3 S.Pierce, etc..)

I think the idea of redundancy always will be ok even with those A.Decays, I mean:
If A.Decay targets C.B. the it will not target RiP, simple and effective.

I even think that the side is great tunnig the deck into a Miracles.
I will probably put up the number of Terminus OR maybe switch to Verdic.

I'm considering playing Redirect in side as 2 Of Opinions? Misdirection maybe?
Also considering in putting in Standstill as 2 Of as or anything to get C.A. like more Jaces.

The thing is that is we next tune the deck into miracles the idea is to make Permanent Hate useless and Terminus seems good in conjuntion to Senseis and Brianstorm And SnapcasterToBrainstorm And Jace and we'll need more spaces.

How has been the testing vs BUG? any idea on how to handle?

[Fropper]

This deck just won the Dutch legacy championship a few hours ago. I have no list yet but I'll post it when I get it.

[Greenpoe]

Standstill sounds entirely awful in this deck. If there's a threat on the board, you want to deal with (or invalidate) it through RiP/Field, Nodes, etc. If there are no threats on the board, you want to lay down your locks or strengthen them. If your locks are down, you want to win the game. Standstill doesn't help with this plan. Plus, Standstill is awful against any Vial deck or any creature deck that can drop a threat on turn 1 (or 2). What were you planning on using it against, anyway?

I think the side-into-UW Miracles could be a good idea, at least it would make the deck strongrt vs. BG decks, but is that worth devoting more than half your SB to? But, at any rate, I still think Stifle is really good as a 2-of or 3-of, sicne a well-placed Stifle can be absolutely critical (Stifle pridemage/Deed/Rector, etc.), and Stifling their fetch will secure easy, easy wins as well. Stifle targets are everywhere (Miracle cards, Matron, Explorer, Stoneforge, Witness, Oblivion Ring/Detetion Sphere, Wasteland), and against so many cards, it's pratically a 1-mana counterspell. Also, if they ever have a Chalice@2 (and not at 1), you can cast your 2-mana spell then Stifle the Chalice. :laugh:

[alphastryk]

...
Also considering in putting in Standstill as 2 Of as or anything to get C.A. like more Jaces.
....

I've been very happy playing Ancestral Vision in that role.

[Fropper]

Here's the decklist that won the Dutch Legacy Championship yesterday

//Instants/Sorceries
3 Terminus
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

//Enchantments
1 Detention Sphere
1 Back to Basics
4 Rest in Peace
4 Counterbalance
3 Energy Field

//Artifacts
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Tundra
2 Plains
7 Island

//Sideboard
1 Disenchant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Terminus
1 Detention Sphere
4 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle

[Koby]

Here's the decklist that won the Dutch Legacy Championship yesterday

//Instants/Sorceries
3 Terminus
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

//Enchantments
1 Detention Sphere
1 Back to Basics
4 Rest in Peace
4 Counterbalance
3 Energy Field

//Artifacts
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Tundra
2 Plains
7 Island

//Sideboard
1 Disenchant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Terminus
1 Detention Sphere
4 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle

This list looks must like how I would have liked to play it when I did about 3 weeks ago at a SCG IQ. Nice to see it win the whole enchilada!

[Griselpuff]

Anybody know how many people/what other decks Top 8'd? I'd love to see a link with that info.

[MVC]

118 people.

Top 8 consisted out of:

UW Blade
Esper Blade
UW Countertop
RUG
UW Sanctuary
ANT
TES
TNT

[gkraigher]

118 people.

Top 8 consisted out of:

UW Blade
Esper Blade
UW Countertop
RUG
UW Sanctuary
ANT
TES
TNT

Doesn't surprise me that he won, with a top 8 consisting of 2 deck with wasteland. I really like his deck, he trimmed a lot of fat. But I don't think it could win a grand prix unless he gets rid of the seat of the synod and puts the karakas in the board.

I am debating playing RUG delver, High Tide, or Rest in Peace at the next big tourney. I believe all of these decks are Tier 1. Yes, this Rest in Peace deck is TIER 1.

All RUG delver decks must play thought scour now, with null rod, ancient grudge, and pyroblasts out of the board to battle this deck. This deck is a really bad match up for them because rest in peace renders everything but delver useless. I don't think there is anyway for High Tide to beat this deck, not with all the hate. Rest in Peace has an interesting effect of making their Time Spirals worse, because you lose your cycling cards like brainstorm, preordain, and ponder but keep islands in the deck.

[lochlan]

Doesn't surprise me that he won, with a top 8 consisting of 2 deck with wasteland. I really like his deck, he trimmed a lot of fat. But I don't think it could win a grand prix unless he gets rid of the seat of the synod and puts the karakas in the board.

You think that with 8x fetches and 9x basics (not to mention 4x Brainstorms and 4x Top), two measly non-basic lands (out of four non-basics total, excluding fetches) are going to ruin his game plan against a large field because..."Wasteland"? That just doesn't make any sense.

[gkraigher]

I've made this argument before, but I don't see what Seat of the Synod and Karakas do for the deck. Energy Field is designed to beat decks that run 4 wasteland, so the more non-basics you play, the more likely you are to lose a key energy field. I don't see why opening yourself up to losing a great card is worth splashing a land you can enlightened tutor for. If anything, I believe Seat of the Synod should be Land Tax. Its enlightened tutorable, and has a much better effect on the game than Seat of the Synod. If you have to enlightened tutor for a Seat you are keeping a bad hand and desperate for lands but have access to a white mana.

[lochlan]

I've made this argument before, but I don't see what Seat of the Synod and Karakas do for the deck.

1) Seat of the Synod can be tutored by E.Tutor
2) Karakas bounces Gaddock Teeg, which prevents you from playing your win condition. It also keeps Thalia off the table, protects you from Show and Tell into Emrakul, etc.

I haven't personally decided to play with Seat of the Synod, but--reflecting on the number of times I've had a surplus of E.Tutors and needed a fourth land I was having trouble finding--I can see why some people would play it. Not playing Karakas, on the other hand, just sounds horrible--since its omission means you can potentially lose the game to a Grizzly Bear that can be tutored for. You have some options against Teeg without it, sure (Porphyry Nodes comes to mind), but Karakas is simply another avenue by which you can deal with one of the deck's major weakpoints.


Energy Field is designed to beat decks that run 4 Wasteland, so the more non-basics you play, the more likely you are to lose a key energy field.

Yeah, which is why you play nine basics. Do you not see how nine basics and eight fetches is sufficient to alleviate any Wasteland issues?


I don't see why opening yourself up to losing a great card is worth splashing a land you can enlightened tutor for.

But it doesn't do that. If you're truly in the awkward board state where you have E.Field and no Rest in Peace (which is--let's be honest--not really where you want to be with this deck) and you know your opponent is on Wasteland, then you simply elect not to put a non-basic land into play. It's just that easy.
In this scenario you'd also find fetch lands to be pretty awkward, but that doesn't mean "omgz don't play fetch lands"--it just means play thoughtfully and with an eye toward future turns and your resource needs.

[Pelikanudo]

@Akatsusi mainly

I've been testing the initial list with a strange side and noticed how good the deck is I won al all the first games even vs BG and BUG! but lost to second and third games, I need some side strategies aand a HowToSide with this deck.

Regarding the Side I've tried a combination of Vendilion and Karakas as this in conjuntion just win games vs control and provides another WinCon,
I've also tested Misdirection and it seems good and I think this can be potentiated more by M.Mage... but when I sided I felt like I wasnt doing it well, by itself for first games seems the best deck..

Please help!

[Griselpuff]

I don't think Meddling Mage is the answer, since you want to be creature light. I'm having trouble with the MU too, I would suggest more Needles and Misdirections and perhaps go from there. Maybe Leyline of Sanctity for discard?

Anyways, here's Caleb D's recent list that placed into the Top 8 and the Top 16. It's more Miracles-y, but does have both of our combos.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50524

[slaydo]

I have seen the that won Dutch nationals and I think that is the way to go. Caleb's list had both combos however he trimmed down on numbers in order to add more win cons. I think that dilutes the deck. I'd rather play those extra win cons in the sb.

[Darkenslight]

The two decklists are:

Jeremy Stowe Top 16 St. Louis Open (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50534):

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments
3 Counterbalance
2 Detention Sphere
2 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus

Basic Lands
4 Island
3 Plains

Lands
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Marsh Flats
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
1 Aura of Silence
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Counterspell
1 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace Beleren
1 Supreme Verdict

Caleb Durward Top 8 St. Louis Open (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50524):

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments
3 Counterbalance
2 Detention Sphere
2 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus

Basic Lands
5 Island
3 Plains

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
1 Aura of Silence
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Counterspell
1 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace Beleren
1 Supreme Verdict

What I find interesting is in the choices of lands in otherwise identical lists.

[Oiolosse]

About his list, why the two Jace Berelens?

[Koby]

About his list, why the two Jace Berelens?

Jace wars, and B/x disruption to recoup cards in hand.

[Darkenslight]

ONe of the things that is clearly noticeable is the fetch-base between the two: Both are almost equally geared to get the sources, but Jeremy's list has much more focus on two fetches: the Strand and the Tarn, in contrast to Caleb's, which seems to be better geared for variance. Is this a nod to cards like Pithing Needle? And if so, was that at all relevant during the Open?

[Griselpuff]

There is such thing as card availability and overanalysis.....

It's best to split the fetches as much as possible, but probably won't matter much.

[BigBear]

I ran a StoneBlade variant of this deck in a local tourney today. The deck went 4-0 then an intential draw in the last round. Opponents were Mono Red Burn, Dredge, Miracles Control, and Goblins. The only game loss was to Burn, otherwise the other 3 matches went 2-0.

Here is the decklist.

4 Brainstorm
1 Back to Basics
2 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
2 Energy Field
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Rest in Peace
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vendilion Clique

1 Batterskull
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mash Flats
3 Plains
2 Scaldinfg Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Windswept Heath

// Sideboard:

1 Hurkyls Recall
3 Glided Drake
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Spell Snare
1 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Ethersworn Canonist


I like the Rest in Peace combo with StoneBlade because it gives an alternate win condition, but moreover because it creates distractions for your opponent to deal with. (i.e. drawing counterspells, burn, and other removal.)

After playing the above list, I think 3 Tundra is definently too much, 2 seems better, maybe even 1. Also, I had one offs of Geist and Clique, which I think should be dumped in favor of a 4th Stoneforge and 2nd Spell Pierce. I think the 2nd Helm also doesn't belong here and maybe add a 3rd Spell Pierce in its place. I am also thinking Counterbalance could be cut to a tutorable one off and add a third Energy Field. I was wishing for a 4th Swords to Plowshares, so that needs to be in the board. As for the manabase, I think a City of Traitors would have been nice (and/or a second Ancient Tomb ) Also, the Karakas probably belongs in the board.

This decklist seems to make every game very different mainly due to the lack of redundency and/or no Ponders (i.e. the deck slots are being filled with the StoneBlade engine). However, the alternate win condition was nice to have.

As for the tourney report, here is a synopsis:

Burn folded to Energy Field / Rest in Peace with Sulfuric Vortex in play. Dredge folded to the same with Batterskull in play. (Obviously Dredge has a real problem against a deck main decking four Rest in Peace.) Miracles Control was an interesting matchup, he wacked my combo pieces with a 2 charge Engineered Explosives , but I pulled of the win with Stoneblade in one game. Second game I pulled off the helm combo. In my Goblins matchup first game I didn't have a RIP or Tutors, but I had an Energy field in my starting hand that I kept. I swords'ed off his first two dudes, then after he built up I was likely going to die the next turn so I laid Energy Field without a RIP in play. I simply waited until I drew a RIP, which was like 4 or 5 turns, then he picked up to the RIP hitting the field. (I was very concerned a Wasteland would win him the game) Second game with Goblins I pulled off the Helm Combo.

Overall, it seems like a very viable deck with the current metagame. I have my doubts about this deck matched up with Show and Tell/Omnicience, anything with Targeted Discard, and Maverick, but I like the odds against RUG Delver and other graveyard dependent decks.

Anyways, thanks for reading.

[monovfox]

Person who just posted their decklist: why run gilded drake over oblivion ring in the sideboard? Oblivion ring is tutor able and actually has uses in other matchups that aren't show and tell

[BigBear]

True, O-Ring has some obvious advantages. The truth is I didn't put enough thought into my sideboard and some of it was driven by cards at hand. I think I also wanted to get too cute with stealing an Emrakul, Griselbrand, or other monster. Agreed though, O-ring should be at least a two or three of in the board. Maybe one in the main. I did run into an opposing Detention Sphere in one game where my Detention Sphere was not an answer, but the O-Ring would have handed me an earlier win.

[Griselpuff]

Yay for a RIP deck top 8'ing! Too bad it wasn't me: www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25324-80th-at-GP-Denver-with-UW-RIP-Miracles

[kinda]

Hey,

I think this deck is pretty neat. I wish I could splash blue in Quinn. I think it is difficult to defend planeswalkers with this and force+etutor is a lot of card disadvantage so those two are not in here. I was playing around with the list below.

// Lands
1 [MR] Ancient Den
1 [PC2] Plains (5)
1 [IN] Island (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Scrubland
4 [A] Tundra
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

// Spells
3 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
3 [US] Energy Field
3 [AL] Helm of Obedience
1 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [M11] Leyline of the Void
4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
1 [10E] Mobilization
3 [JU] Web of Inertia
1 [TE] Humility
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [DDG] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [M11] Leyline of the Void

[Madmankevinx]

NECRO!! So...with Deathrite showing up in mono white decks(this dude is everywhere) and Abrupt Decay hopefully seeing much less play, is this deck viable again? Always wanted to try it but never got around to it back in 2012! Doable without counter/top?