[Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm

[Freggle]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/rtr/5s8fs1lf4n_en.jpg

Primary Game Plan
This is a combo based enchantress deck designed to win the game by assembling the combo of Helm of Obedience + Rest in Peace. The combo is simple once amassed by simply paying :1: into the Helm exiles your opponents deck. Their next draw phase if they can not draw a card you win the game.



Primary Game Plan Considerations
If Rest in Peace is on the battle field there aren't too many cards in Magic that can stop the combo is Helm of Obedience resolves.

Most cards that will stop the combo are permanents (ex. Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Stoney Silence) and therefore the deck has to have a stong plan against permanents. In enchantress there is no better card than Oblivion Ring.

The primary non-permanent spell we have to look out for is Krosan Grip. A well timed Grip can ruin our plans. All other articaft removal is too slow to stop the combo. Stifle stalls, but does not stop it. The best way for enchantress to beat grip is to have more wins (or win substitutes) to overrun their Grip count.






Proposed Prison / Combo Enchantress List (with RiP/Helm) Revised 9-29-2012:

Creatures (5)
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Artifacts (1)
1 Helm of Obedience

Sorceries (1)
1 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments (34)

The Draw:
4 Enchantress's Presence

The Acceleration:
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl

The Stall:
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Energy Field
3 Rest In Peace
4 Elephant Grass
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Disruption and Consistency:
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Sterling Grove

Alternative Win:
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Mana (19)
2 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
7 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island


Sideboard (underdeveloped):
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Decks Origin (Testing Basis)
Having had play UG enchantress for a bit of time now I feel there are some things we can use for a basis in the [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23437-Developmental-Spreading-Illusions-An-Enchantress-Variant) thread.

This concept was also discussed here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5302-Deck-Solitaire-(Enchantress)) in the traditional enchantress thread starting on about page 150.

Here is the latest deck list I had been running on 8-12-2012:


Inspired a bit by Spatula's no Basic plains list I took the following list to a local tournament:

Creatures (6)
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorcery (1)
1 Green Sun's Zenith

Instant (1)
1 Crop Rotation

Artifact (1)
1 Pithing Needle

Enchantments (32)
Draw
4 Enchantress's Presence

Card Quality
2 Mirri's Guile

Ramp
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Wild Growth

Stall
4 Elephant Grass
4 Energy Field
2 Solitary Confinement
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sea's Claim <--Get Karakas

Attrition
1 Karmic Justice

Wins
2 Defense of the Heart
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Mana (19)
1 Island
7 Forest
2 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Forbidden Orchard
1 Savannah

Sideboard:
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Seal of Removal
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Sterling Grove
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Deck Breakdown (Simple Version)

Enchantress Engine
Once an enchantress effect is landed on the battlefield the deck draws (1) card per effect on the field each time an enchantment is cast (even is countered.) This creates a considerable amount of card advantage (CA) over your opponent allowing the pilot to flood the board with enchantments or punch through a permission wall faster than other decks can.

The deck is considered to have 9 enchantress effects:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Green Sun's Zenith

The Green Sun's is included for three reasons:

- The statistics of the control Match up (MU)
- The shuffle effect (for Mirri's Guile)
- The additional enchantress effect

Card Choice Breakdown

The Wins: (In order of preference)


Helm of Obedience : [Targeted] Easily the most potent win as when combined with Rest in Peace it can for :1: exile your entire opponents graveyard and win virtually on-the-spot. It should be noted that this will even work through reshuffle effects that avoid the graveyard
(such as Progenitus) because of the infinite loop clause in the MTG rules.

Sigil of the Empty Throne : [Non-Targeted] There is nothing more graceful than making a 4/4 flier for each enchantment you cast regardless of resolution. If resolved and protected with 34 enchantments floating in this deck this win condition (wincon) becomes absurd very quickly.

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn : [When all else fails] Can't Oblivion Ring that thing that is preventing you from winning? Make them sacrifice it. Emrakul also goes infinite with Karakas to win through the most disgusting of board states.

Wheel of Sun and Moon : [When absolutely everything else fails] Draw them out.

The Remainder:

... remainder forthcoming

Varience From Previous Lists
This new Helm list now gives us access to a 5 mana win now vs. a 15 mana win kinda now. Most of the card choices have been discussed at length in the other threads. I will detail them here in the future. the basis for this deck has been thoroughly tested, and I have exprienced success with it. The main change is the removal of Emrakul, and Emrakul enablers in lieu of the faster Helm and more stall. The rise in the number of Oblivion Rings is to combat any player shroud effects.

Cards for consideration:
Link RTR - Detention Sphere (http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&tbnid=8ecH-QWOunhI6M:&imgrefurl=http://www.blackborder.com/q/node/15442&docid=9wY6Rs96I1EgaM&imgurl=http://www.blackborder.com/q/sites/default/files/images/Detention%252520Sphere.jpg&w=265&h=370&ei=4I5cUP7HCe7gigLV4IDYCQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=1&sig=103213102825616732864&page=1&tbnh=154&tbnw=107&start=0&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:74&tx=274&ty=288)
Web of Inertia
Greater Auramancy


A Note to the Moderators
I see that there is another combo thread already discussing the concept of Rest In Peace and Helm of Obedience. Namely this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24691-UW-Sanctuary-(Helm-RiP-combo)&p=674603#post674603). However, I feel this deck is different because it uses the enchantress shell to further it's game plan. If the moderators feel that there is not enough difference please delete this thread.

[renna]

Hello, im having fun with this deck by two months with the GWr version and now im switching into this combo one.

And I have immediately a question: dont you think, with that list, you will need more ways for tutoring the combo's pieces?

Sorry for my english:laugh:

[Freggle]

Hello, im having fun with this deck by two months with the GWr version and now im switching into this combo one.

And I have immediately a question: dont you think, with that list, you will need more ways for tutoring the combo's pieces?

Sorry for my english:laugh:

This is a debatable question. I am of the camp that tutors are not needed. I prefer to use a statistical approach of Mirri's Guile + Shuffle Effects like Windswept Heath or Green Sun's Zenith to filter the deck to find what I need (much like Brainstorm in :u: decks.) This also gives the deck more overall synergy / resiliency & efficiency of card slot.

The draw engine will also naturally find you a lot of stuff.

The current list does have tutors in Sterling Grove if needed in a pinch, It should be noted however that these cards were added for their shroud effect more than the tutor ability.

When I have more time I will go into more detail on this topic. ...but again I have played both and my short answer is no tutors are not needed.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

The biggest problem with the list I see is that you're basically dead as soon as an opponent gets three hardcounters online (and holds them back). Solitary Confinement isn't exactly the greatest wincon given how many more cards than the opponent this deck will usually draw before being fully protected (meaning you'll likely run out of library cards first because you need to keep drawing to discard for Confinement).
The UG variant gets around that by abusing Zenith and Witness (they need to stop both Words, all four Zeniths and both Witness - seems good enough). I think this deck needs a similar backup plan to fight countermagic, though graveyard recursion obviously isn't the greatest answer given the deck's focus on RIP. A few City of Solitude in the MD might do the trick, though, or just having access to a few Words of Wind similar to the UG version.

[Freggle]

The biggest problem with the list I see is that you're basically dead as soon as an opponent gets three hardcounters online (and holds them back). Solitary Confinement isn't exactly the greatest wincon given how many more cards than the opponent this deck will usually draw before being fully protected (meaning you'll likely run out of library cards first because you need to keep drawing to discard for Confinement).
The UG variant gets around that by abusing Zenith and Witness (they need to stop both Words, all four Zeniths and both Witness - seems good enough). I think this deck needs a similar backup plan to fight countermagic, though graveyard recursion obviously isn't the greatest answer given the deck's focus on RIP. A few City of Solitude in the MD might do the trick, though, or just having access to a few Words of Wind similar to the UG version.

Even though I feel that having 3 hard counters online in todays legacy is a relatively tall order you are absolutely correct and the deck would be much better if it could be more agressive with permission but that is the plight of all enchantress decks.

City of Solitude and Words of Wind MAY do the trick but you would be lessening the overall synergy to find room for them.

Choke is also widely regarded as superior to city in the enchantress community as an answer to control.

I personally feel that the best way to correct this issue woild be to reduce the Rest in Peace count down to 3 and add in 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon and possibly another for the 4th Wild Growth.

This makes Energy Field stronger and improves the control / discard MUs since the draw out is far less likely. That is my inital thought but there might be something better than that.

Oh, and Solitary Confinement is in the deck primarily to stop Jace wins but is also decet against combo and burn.

[Just me]

Detention Sphere seems impressive as additional and different O. Ring. It's the right colors as well.
Dryad Arbor + GSZ = mana accel turn one for a turn 2 Echantress Presence against certain decks (not Zoo and the like obv. but even Goblins has not that much straight removal).

[catmint]

I think the primary goal of the deck is not to win with the RIP/Helm combo but to get the enchantress engine online and to lock the opponent out with RIP/Field. Then you can win obviously very easy with Helm but any other enchantress wincon would also do it.

The interesting thing is that this deck can win without the enchantress engine and can't loose to many decks with the RIP/Field combo online. The advantage is that you do not really need cards like elephant grass and also confinement is not necessary. Therefore I would max out on Sterling Grove to protect and find everything except for helm.

I can imagine that this is stronger than existing variants because if the current deck does not have an enchantress effect the deck can just try to survie until they have one. The win and lock depends on this engine, so if a deck can discard/counter/edict some enchantress cards you might not be able to find more in time. Now with this version if enchantress cards are answered you can just RIP/Field or RIP/Helm and completely lock or win.

Also even if less crucial Enchantress is still the nuts so 1 GSZ seems lonely. Engineere Explosives and Deed will ruin your day so I guess some needles won't hurt the SB.

[Freggle]

I think the primary goal of the deck is not to win with the RIP/Helm combo but to get the enchantress engine online and to lock the opponent out with RIP/Field. Then you can win obviously very easy with Helm but any other enchantress wincon would also do it.

The interesting thing is that this deck can win without the enchantress engine and can't loose to many decks with the RIP/Field combo online. The advantage is that you do not really need cards like elephant grass and also confinement is not necessary. Therefore I would max out on Sterling Grove to protect and find everything except for helm.

I can imagine that this is stronger than existing variants because if the current deck does not have an enchantress effect the deck can just try to survie until they have one. The win and lock depends on this engine, so if a deck can discard/counter/edict some enchantress cards you might not be able to find more in time. Now with this version if enchantress cards are answered you can just RIP/Field or RIP/Helm and completely lock or win.

Also even if less crucial Enchantress is still the nuts so 1 GSZ seems lonely. Engineere Explosives and Deed will ruin your day so I guess some needles won't hurt the SB.

Your absolutely right about the decks primary goal. I will adjust this in the OP hopefully tomorrow night. In playing a version very close to this for quite some time now I will strongly caution you on the removal of Elephant Grass, and Solitary Confinement. Both of these cards fulfill two totally different roles for the deck.

Elephant Grass gives us game against burn / zoo / sleigh style decks when an Energy Field can not be found. Without it we are too slow. Also to cut an enchantment with a casting cost of :g: (the wheelhouse of enchantress) you should have a very good reason, but I'm open to suggestions and improvements.

Solitary Confinement on the other hand locks up the long games and most peoples alt wins a.k.a. Jace. Solitary Confinement is also the best we got G1 against storm. (granted it's not too hot in that role)

[kwis]

What does this have on all the decks that tried to do the same thing with Leyline? Seems like it introduces extra vulnerabilities.
Also why wouldn't this combo have worked with wheel of sun and moon?

Perhaps I'm missing something but why is seas claim preferable to spreading seas? Is the 1 mana that relevant vs. an extra card?


Is the general reason for the switch that RIP simply works better than Wheel and facilitates this as a reliable win-con?

[Hanni]

Any reason for not running Brainstorm? The tempo loss of a single blue mana seems insignicant compared to the upsides.

I also second the notion of Detention Sphere as a better Oblivion Ring in most cases, and I would definitely suggest some sort of split between the two at the very least.

Lastly, I understand the fact that RIP combos with Helm for an instant I-Win, but is it even necessary? With no way to tutor up the Helm, the Helm being dead on its own, and it not having any syngery with the rest of the deck... I'm not even sure it's worth it. Between Solitary Confinement and RIP/Energy Field, with Sterling Grove to protect them... it seems like you have plenty of ways to lock the opponent out and then win through Sigil of the Empty Throne instead. Just a thought, anyway.

My 2 cents.

[Freggle]

What does this have on all the decks that tried to do the same thing with Leyline?

This deck has more synergy, and multiple avenues to win. All the :ub: versions with Leyline of the Void were also defensive or prison decks. This is both a prison / defensive deck with multiple I win combos, and massive amounts of draw.


Seems like it introduces extra vulnerabilities.

I honestly do not know what you are referring to. ...less counter magic?


Also why wouldn't this combo have worked with wheel of sun and moon?

Wheel of Sun and Moon would never draw a player out since the card would be placed on the bottom of their library.


Perhaps I'm missing something but why is seas claim preferable to spreading seas? Is the 1 mana that relevant vs. an extra card?

That is a carry over from when I was playing with a rainbow-pain land base, and at that time yes. It is also best when designing a enchantress decks to keep the curve as low as possible. In doing so the deck becomes very explosive as it can draw / cast more per turn.

...in the end though the singleton Sea's Claim in that list was a bad call.


Is the general reason for the switch that RIP simply works better than Wheel and facilitates this as a reliable win-con?

Correct it's an aggressive / disruptive lock piece.


Any reason for not running Brainstorm? The tempo loss of a single blue mana seems insignicant compared to the upsides.

I tested Brainstorm in previous versions, and it hinges on a lot of things. Brianstorm is good when you do not have an enchantress effect in play. When you do it's not that great as you tend to draw most of the card you put back anyhow, so you would rather have the mana, and the slot as an enchantment.

I also tried Ponder, but it too wasn't packing the punch that Mirri's Guile does. Mirri's Guile does A LOT. First of it is a :g: enchantment the most explosive type in an enchantress deck, and it keeps giving every turn. Remember this is a prison deck so passing turns isn't as crucial as it is to other decks.

Mirri's Guile also triggers at the beginning of upkeep. This is very important because then you can stack ALL of your upkeep triggers as favorably as you want. (this is why enchantress players do not play Sylvan Library as it trigger in the draw phase) This means you can look at your top three before you decide if you want to discard a card to Solitary Confinement or pay your cumulative upkeep for Elephant Grass or if your running Defense of the Heart you can stack you defense last let it resolve first shuffle and then stack your top 3 any way you choose.

Guile also adds more stability to Solitary Confinement in that it can dig/stack that enchantment to keep the draws flowing.

So in the end Mirri's Guile has defiantly earned a spot in my enchantress lists. As it does all of those not-so-obvious things in addition to acting like a slow Ponder. I also feel (perhaps wrongly) that Brainstorm competes for the same slot and guile trumps it. Thus the omission. The most obvious place to me where Brainstorm outshines Mirri's Guile in this deck is when you are up against discard and you can storm away your goodies, but I found I'm usually tapped out anyhow since we tend to dump our cards in a frenzy, and it wasn't natural to leave the mana up for such an occurrence, and the enchantress draws tends to combat discard fairly well anyhow.


I also second the notion of Detention Sphere as a better Oblivion Ring in most cases, and I would definitely suggest some sort of split between the two at the very least.

this is very true. I just do not like the casting cost. I am a very conservative designer when it comes to mana bases. I like my basics. This isn't a cost thing it's an I hate Stifle, Bloodmoon, Wasteland thing so I go out of my way to minimize the impact of those cards against me. In all actuality this is a GWu or mayber even closer to Gwu deck this is a choice to make the most stable mana base possible. (mostly to avoid wasteland hitting an enchanted land or causing me to sac an Energy Field)

So a casting cost of :w::u::1: is a little daunting. That is the only reason I have shied away from it until now. Do you have any good ideas for the mana base to make casting a Detention Sphere easier?



Lastly, I understand the fact that RIP combos with Helm for an instant I-Win, but is it even necessary? With no way to tutor up the Helm, the Helm being dead on its own, and it not having any syngery with the rest of the deck... I'm not even sure it's worth it. Between Solitary Confinement and RIP/Energy Field, with Sterling Grove to protect them... it seems like you have plenty of ways to lock the opponent out and then win through Sigil of the Empty Throne instead. Just a thought, anyway.

My 2 cents.

This is a very valid question, and one I have been pondering quite a bit lately. ...the answer is I'm not sure so I'm going to try it.

The problem if Sigil is again it's casting cost. Yeah it's fine when you are rolling and you have Serra's Sanctum out there already, but there are many times it sat in my hand not being able to be cast. It also is a high enough cost to not gain a ton of value out of it on the turn it's cast so you have to protect it otherwise it may just be a dud. It's good, and will win most of the time, but to me it doesn't feel perfect.

I really do like Defense of the Heart -> Emrakul. I like it because all of the cards work together. People know that if they are going to win there might just be 1 turn where they can punch through my defenses and kill. So typically people will place all their creatures on the battlefield to be poised for that moment. ...well defense takes advantage of that. Defense of the Heart also warrant the inclusion of Forbidden Orchard an excellent color fixer in this deck. I could go on-and-on about this win like it's one mana less AND GREEN, but it's hard to compare to something you haven't tried. So I will try Helm for a bit and come to a better conclusion.

There are other wins I'm considering that I will detail when I have the time.

Thank you for your two cents.

It looks like my OP update will have to wait another day. My apologies.

[Freggle]

I revised the list based off of testing in the OP. I have moved the original list below for records sake.

Creatures (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress

Artifacts (2)
2 Helm of Obedience

Sorceries (1)
1 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments (34)

The Draw:
4 Enchantress's Presence

The Acceleration:
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl

The Stall:
2 Solitary Confinement
4 Energy Field
4 Rest In Peace
4 Elephant Grass

Disruption and Consistency:
2 Mirri's Guile
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Sterling Grove

Alternative Win:
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Mana (19)
2 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Tropical Island
7 Forest
2 Savannah


Sideboard (underdeveloped):
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Sanctity

I will further develop the OP later tonight

[TheSleeper]

Above looks sweet man, definitely going to test it. Can you comment on the necessity of 2 MD Karakas? Is this purely a meta call against SNT? What else is it useful against? I'm just a bit worried 19 lands, 2 of which can be dead in a lot of match ups, won't be enough for consistency. I respect you've tested a lot, thus my asking.

Edit: I was looking at he list without Emmy. Is it still worth running Krak just to bounce your own?

[Freggle]

Above looks sweet man, definitely going to test it. Can you comment on the necessity of 2 MD Karakas? Is this purely a meta call against SNT? What else is it useful against? I'm just a bit worried 19 lands, 2 of which can be dead in a lot of match ups, won't be enough for consistency. I respect you've tested a lot, thus my asking.

The two Maindeck Karakas are mainly in to handle the following:

-Gaddock Teeg - This cards can shut off a LOT of our wins including helm. Bounce it for giggles.

-Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - This lady sucks. ..not with Karakas out... now they have to pay two to keep dropping it.

-Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (theirs)- If this swings we loose. Bounce it unless they have Omniscience ...then you need Oblivion Ring.

-Karakas - Nothing beats Karakas like Karakas. If your Karakas is on the battle field first your opponent cant even tap theirs for mana.

-Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (ours) - It sounds absurd, but a fair handfull of games come down to hard casting Emrakul. ...when your opponent has soo much hate there is nothing like cleaning up infinite permanents bouncing our own Emrakul to win evantually win off of sacrifices and infinite turns.

-Iona, Shield of Emeria (less-and-less) - If Iona comes down on green we're sunk ...unless we have a Karakas.

-white mana - Why run a plains when you can have a Karakas?

[jbone2016]

Any thought to sphere of safety? As long you get a sanctum down, it shouldn't be that hard to land it (barring counterspells).

[Dihensoeur]

Gaddock Teeg is a problem ? Don't worry ! The solution is here : Equipoise.

You manage:
- Creatures : Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, destroy all tokens (Empty the warren, Batterskull, ...), ...
- Artifacts : Canonist, Chalice of the void, ...
[optional] : untapped islands : to avoid a spell pierce, ...

[Dihensoeur]

Why at each time I reply to a thread, nobody reply after :cry: ? It's a curse !

You should add MD or side Equipoise, at less x1. It's a powerful card.

My actual Enchantress is (in test) :

Lands

1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
10 Forest

Creatures

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Argothian Enchantress

Artifacts

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle

Enchantments

1 Detention Sphere
1 Equipoise
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Abundant Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

Tutors

1 Crop Rotation
3 Enlightened Tutor

Side

1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Nevermore
1 Humility
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Rule of Law
2 Replenish
1 Cursed Totem
1 Stony Silence
3 Pithing Needle

[Freggle]

Why at each time I reply to a thread, nobody reply after :cry: ? It's a curse !



Dihensoeur, Sorry I'm extreamyl busy as of late. I'm still into this deck, but I don't have the time to give to it that it needs. Next week things should free up a bit. I will be able to discuss it then.

I like your list on initial glance, but again not enought time to digest it right now.

[Dihensoeur]

I updated my list :

- 1 Sigil of the empty throne
- 1 plains
+ 1 City of solitude
+ 1 Tundra

Side :

- 1 Stony Silence
+ 1 Equipoise


Tundra is to be able to play Energy Field in emergency case or versus Chalice of the void with 1 counter.
I try without Sigil because I found it too slow and too expensive (5 manas + all manas from others enchantments).
I add a City MD to secure the kill with Helm and fight blue decks.
I add a second Equipoise because it's very a strong card and it's an extra safety to kill with Helm (=> phase out pithing needle...).


I read the UW Sanctuary thread too.

Wheel of Sun and Moon is a win condition that happens to stabilize Energy Field well, and can be dropped under Teeg. (you don't draw out your opponent does.)
Rest in peace work too with Energy Field and I think that we can/should win without waiting for draw out from opponent. You should play Words of war to avoid draw out and kill planeswalker/Teeg/opponent (^_^) instead of Wheel.

[Freggle]

I took down a local ( ...well Toronto, traveling) tournament today with the following list:


3 Solitary Confinement
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Energy Field
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Sterling Grove
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Rest in Peace
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
2 Forbidden Orchard
2 Karakas
1 Island
2 Serra's Sanctum


Sideboard
3 Choke
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sterling Grove

Beat EsperBlade 2-1, ANT 2-1, RU Delver 2-1, and Solidarity (Hight Tide) 2-1

The mana base needs some work, and should find room for another Guile.

Full report Tomorrow, but i'm stunned I went through 2 combo decks Rest in Peace is a great card.

[Tormod]

I took down a local ( ...well Toronto, traveling) tournament today with the following list:


3 Solitary Confinement
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Energy Field
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Sterling Grove
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Rest in Peace
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
2 Forbidden Orchard
2 Karakas
1 Island
2 Serra's Sanctum


Sideboard
3 Choke
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sterling Grove

Beat EsperBlade 2-1, ANT 2-1, RU Delver 2-1, and Solidarity (Hight Tide) 2-1

The mana base needs some work, and should find room for another Guile.

Full report Tomorrow, but i'm stunned I went through 2 combo decks Rest in Peace is a great card.

Jeff, you shouldn't lie about tournament results.

I was the Esper Stoneblade player you faced round 1. I won game 1, you won game 2 and we went to time not able to start game 3. How does that translate into you taking down the tournament?

In the final round I was top 2 facing an undefeated Miracles opponent him with a record of 3-0 and I was 2-0-1. The results of the final match was in my favour.

You faced my cousin playing firefly in round 3 his record was 1-1, when you paired up so you definitely was not in any undefeated bracket.

Shame on you.

[Dihensoeur]

(51 players) Magickeller Hannover 10/2012 >> #8 - Enchantress - Martin Pohlmeyer

1 Island
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Argothian Enchantress
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Words of Wind
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Silence
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Living Wish

Side:
2 Aura of Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Serra's Sanctum
3 Silence
1 Energy Field
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Rest in Peace

Good idea to reuse Living Wish because Enchantress is now faster with Helm and to have the possibility to get a second combo with Words of wind+Cloud of faeries. But I don't agree with Sterling Grove that I find useless.

[Freggle]

Jeff, you shouldn't lie about tournament results.

I was the Esper Stoneblade player you faced round 1. I won game 1, you won game 2 and we went to time not able to start game 3. How does that translate into you taking down the tournament?

In the final round I was top 2 facing an undefeated Miracles opponent him with a record of 3-0 and I was 2-0-1. The results of the final match was in my favour.

You faced my cousin playing firefly in round 3 his record was 1-1, when you paired up so you definitely was not in any undefeated bracket.

Shame on you.

Unsummon, thank you for typing this here. It wasn't my intention to lie, and I would have / will have detail all of this in my full report later today. For the store we were at "Friendly troll" I won the full payout (WHICH WAS SPLIT) which is extremely uncommon for me. ...and to me in my excitement I felt like I "took down the tournament."

If you were to go to the StarCity events I have written about of look-up my DCI number you will find that everything matches-up (no edits).

The shame is most certainly on me. For the day I went 1-1-1 (correction) EDIT: I mean 1-1 (I'll get this right just yet) Esper Stoneblade went to time, ANT (2-1), RU Delver (2-1), and Solidarity (2-1) [this went to time but I had the full on Confinement Lock and Double grove, and he gave the match to me.)

Is there anything else I'm missing?

Later I will detail what I felt were the key cards of the MU's, and the play-by-play (from memory there may be errors.)

Feeling stupid, but this is what I get from turbo typing. I still feel overall the deck performed well.

[Freggle]

(51 players) Magickeller Hannover 10/2012 >> #8 - Enchantress - Martin Pohlmeyer

1 Island
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Argothian Enchantress
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Words of Wind
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Silence
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Living Wish

Side:
2 Aura of Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Serra's Sanctum
3 Silence
1 Energy Field
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Rest in Peace

Good idea to reuse Living Wish because Enchantress is now faster with Helm and to have the possibility to get a second combo with Words of wind+Cloud of faeries. But I don't agree with Sterling Grove that I find useless.

Dihensoeur, I saw this on T8 yesterday. Looks interesting!

I also want to ask you how you feel about Abundant Growth? I'm looking to change up my list a bit to address some of the issues I have been experiencing, and wondered what your thoughts were on the card.

[Freggle]

Well since I have now caught a bit of insomnia I will write my report. As stated above this was a tournament at Friendly Troll in Toronto. This tournament ended up being 4 rounds of swiss payouts to all X-1’s. THERE IS NO TOP 4 OR 8 JUST PAYOUTS TO X-1’s I was told all ties are counted as a loss although I never asked a store member for clarification.
I think I heard people say that there were 12 people there, but I really don’t know.

Round 1: Unsummon w/ EsperBlade 1-1

G1: Honestly, the only thing I remember about G1 for sure is that I was on the play and my T2 Enchantress’s Presence was countered (Spell Peirce I believe.) I know my opponent had a T1 Island go turn, and I suspected Piece, but I don’t recall if it was Daze. Since I seem to recall a back-up Presence in hand I decide to cast it and make him have it. He did.

I don’t recall if it was next turn or a few turns after my second enchantress effect was countered, and this puts me behind. I don’t recall much else outside that I lose to jitte / batterskull and stoneforge before I can stick the energy field combo or hide behind confinement.

G2: I recall having a better opener. I got the argothian hand, and felt confident it would stick. It did. I landed Wheel of Sun and Moon and either Energy Field or Solitary or both and felt like I had it locked-up. I couldn’t find or stick a win though. This game went on too long, and Unsummon went into what appeared to me to be clock management mode. Taking multiple minutes to Brainstorm and asking at least two turns did I play a land. I ask him to pick-up the pace and play a land if he wants because I wasn’t sure if he did, but I wanted to save time. I eventually won off of Sigil of the empty Throne with 3 minutes in the round.

I say well lets go to game 3. He tells me that this is a tournament that only pays out x-1’s and that we should just win out from here. I say let’s play it’s in his favor because I don’t win fast. He proceeds to talk for at least another minute, and I then agree not to start G3. This was a mistake on my part, as I feel a winner should have tried to have been determined. In retrospect I should have forced the issue, but I did not.
1-1
Round 2 – Player unknown – ANT 2-1

G1: May hand is ripped apart from targeted discard, but there is no board pressure. My opponent keeps cantripping, and making me discard, and I put him on some sort of weird The Gate Build. I top deck a Presence, and feel good because it won’t get edict-ed.

The discard keeps coming, but the value of presence starts to take hold. I have three cards a forest, and wheel of sun and moon & confinement. I decide to play confinement to see if I can’t just sidestep some discard for a few turns. Miraculously, I discard the land and top deck another presence off of Wheel resolving and was able to stabilize confinement. After a few turns I believe my opponent concedes the game.

I still think I’m playing a weird Gate deck (having never played ANT) and decide to bring in Leyline to help with edicts and discard; I also bring in the carpets because I saw islands. I get a playable non leyline hand, and keep 7. I get Tendriled for 20+ in short order. I now know this is ANT and switch up the plan I go back to growths.

I drop a pregame Leyline G3 and this is back breaking for my opponent. He later tells me he has the turn 2-3 kill with discard disruption, but no cards held any value for him anymore because of my hexproof. I drop a T2 Rest in Peace to make his comeback even harder cutting off past in flames and other stuff. I choose this over my in hand enchantress effects. I figure then he can win with multiple bounce or ETW. So I guile up an Energy field a few turns later and he concedes. Strangely he tells me his list is not running bounce. I think that is a mistake.

2-1

Match 3: Unsummon’s cousin – RU Delver or “Firefly” 2-1

Honestly I don’t remember much about G1, but I know I win. I don’t remember how. I know for a number of turns I just sat behind a fragile Energy field (no WoSaM or RIP) and guiled to sculpt a good hand I had another Efield back-up in hand.

I also know I lucked out to like 4 turns of double delver not flipping. …this allows me to buy time to not play E.Field early to try and slam a combo piece first. Couldn’t do it.

I won somehow though not sure how.
G2 - Again kind of hazy. I know there was a game losing misplay here. I was playing around Piercing e on a fragile Energy Field a good majority of the game. I did land two enchantress effects and slammed a confinemt. I chose not to cast an E. Field even though I had the mana in fear of counter? (RIP already down) Not sure why in retrospect… My opponent then bounces confinement and swings for lethal. Onto G3

This game was close. My opponent gets an early flipped delver and drops prostatic pillar. After many exchanges I land the lock and feel good and safe from pillar. My opponent top decks a bounce and bounces E. Field and puts me to 2 with a swing. (I cannot recast E. Field Sacry) I then guile up a Helm and try and resolve it. It works I exile his deck and very very narrowly win.
2-1

Last round – Unknown Player – High Tide 2-1

G1 he puts me on Emrakul I’m sure he heard me talking and BSZ’z me for 61
G2 I board in all 15 cards taking out the damage prevention combo stuff and growths since the all have more value. I T0 a Leyline and T1 Needle on Candelabra and T2 Sterling. He tries to go off T3-ish and makes a ton of mana. I feel like it’s all over. He gets some absurd amount of blue after a few Meditation I believe and attempts to Intuition. I say “hold-up” and ask him to read the card. I then ask him which opponent he is targeting, and he scoops.
G3. First 7 was good but only had Leyline, Serra’s Sanctum, and green spells. Since my opponent ships his I decide to ship mine. My next 6 was a hand with guiles forbidden orchard (needs to be cut) and good hate (I don’t remember specifically which ones. I decide to keep this risky clutch.

T1 on the draw not land I play carpet, and guile. Both resolve. I proceed to play this game this 1 carpet, 1 sanctum, and 1 forbidden for all but the last few turns. I hard cast and resolve Leyline, and get double grove so he cannot bounce anything. I’m slowly dying to a Snapcater and a sprinkling of spirits I gave him. I eventually hit confinement to stop that nonsense and time is called (or it happened in the extra turns not too sure.) I attempt to win with Helm in extra turns but it is forced. The game is a draw, but my opponent graciously concedes for a split.

This put me at 3-0-1 at the end of the tournament which is enough to “win” as for the Friendly Troll Rules 3-0-1 is the equivalent of 3-1 which deems full payout. I was never told nor asked for a placing.

I have no idea if this would have placed me in the T4 or T8, but I do feel it was a good showing.

I will talk about what cards were good and which were bad later.

[Dihensoeur]

I also want to ask you how you feel about Abundant Growth? I'm looking to change up my list a bit to address some of the issues I have been experiencing, and wondered what your thoughts were on the card.

Abundant Growth is my "Brainstorm" in Enchantress.
For one, you draw one (and more with Argo), it's very useful. Just for that, I like it!
But abundant give us a mana color fixer and give us the opportunity to play easily any enchantment of any color!
It's easy to get :w:, :u:, :w::w: or :b: (I played a version with Pernicious Deed and Replenish) without bilands.
It can be a good combo with Words of wind => for :1::g: : The opponent returns a permanent he or she controls to its owner's hand.

[AlmostGrown]

(51 players) Magickeller Hannover 10/2012 >> #8 - Enchantress - Martin Pohlmeyer

1 Island
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Argothian Enchantress
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Words of Wind
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Silence
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Living Wish

Side:
2 Aura of Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Serra's Sanctum
3 Silence
1 Energy Field
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Rest in Peace

Good idea to reuse Living Wish because Enchantress is now faster with Helm and to have the possibility to get a second combo with Words of wind+Cloud of faeries. But I don't agree with Sterling Grove that I find useless.

How good were the Living Wishes for you? I'm skeptical at a Wishboard in any deck outside of "true" combo, but it looks really good in this deck.

[Tormod]

Well since I have now caught a bit of insomnia I will write my report. As stated above this was a tournament at Friendly Troll in Toronto. This tournament ended up being 4 rounds of swiss payouts to all X-1’s. THERE IS NO TOP 4 OR 8 JUST PAYOUTS TO X-1’s I was told all ties are counted as a loss although I never asked a store member for clarification.
I think I heard people say that there were 12 people there, but I really don’t know.

Round 1: Unsummon w/ EsperBlade 1-1

G1: Honestly, the only thing I remember about G1 for sure is that I was on the play and my T2 Enchantress’s Presence was countered (Spell Peirce I believe.) I know my opponent had a T1 Island go turn, and I suspected Piece, but I don’t recall if it was Daze. Since I seem to recall a back-up Presence in hand I decide to cast it and make him have it. He did.

I don’t recall if it was next turn or a few turns after my second enchantress effect was countered, and this puts me behind. I don’t recall much else outside that I lose to jitte / batterskull and stoneforge before I can stick the energy field combo or hide behind confinement.

G2: I recall having a better opener. I got the argothian hand, and felt confident it would stick. It did. I landed Wheel of Sun and Moon and either Energy Field or Solitary or both and felt like I had it locked-up. I couldn’t find or stick a win though. This game went on too long, and Unsummon went into what appeared to me to be clock management mode. Taking multiple minutes to Brainstorm and asking at least two turns did I play a land. I ask him to pick-up the pace and play a land if he wants because I wasn’t sure if he did, but I wanted to save time. I eventually won off of Sigil of the empty Throne with 3 minutes in the round.

I say well lets go to game 3. He tells me that this is a tournament that only pays out x-1’s and that we should just win out from here. I say let’s play it’s in his favor because I don’t win fast. He proceeds to talk for at least another minute, and I then agree not to start G3. This was a mistake on my part, as I feel a winner should have tried to have been determined. In retrospect I should have forced the issue, but I did not.
1-1
Round 2 – Player unknown – ANT 2-1

G1: May hand is ripped apart from targeted discard, but there is no board pressure. My opponent keeps cantripping, and making me discard, and I put him on some sort of weird The Gate Build. I top deck a Presence, and feel good because it won’t get edict-ed.

The discard keeps coming, but the value of presence starts to take hold. I have three cards a forest, and wheel of sun and moon & confinement. I decide to play confinement to see if I can’t just sidestep some discard for a few turns. Miraculously, I discard the land and top deck another presence off of Wheel resolving and was able to stabilize confinement. After a few turns I believe my opponent concedes the game.

I still think I’m playing a weird Gate deck (having never played ANT) and decide to bring in Leyline to help with edicts and discard; I also bring in the carpets because I saw islands. I get a playable non leyline hand, and keep 7. I get Tendriled for 20+ in short order. I now know this is ANT and switch up the plan I go back to growths.

I drop a pregame Leyline G3 and this is back breaking for my opponent. He later tells me he has the turn 2-3 kill with discard disruption, but no cards held any value for him anymore because of my hexproof. I drop a T2 Rest in Peace to make his comeback even harder cutting off past in flames and other stuff. I choose this over my in hand enchantress effects. I figure then he can win with multiple bounce or ETW. So I guile up an Energy field a few turns later and he concedes. Strangely he tells me his list is not running bounce. I think that is a mistake.

2-1

Match 3: Unsummon’s cousin – RU Delver or “Firefly” 2-1

Honestly I don’t remember much about G1, but I know I win. I don’t remember how. I know for a number of turns I just sat behind a fragile Energy field (no WoSaM or RIP) and guiled to sculpt a good hand I had another Efield back-up in hand.

I also know I lucked out to like 4 turns of double delver not flipping. …this allows me to buy time to not play E.Field early to try and slam a combo piece first. Couldn’t do it.

I won somehow though not sure how.
G2 - Again kind of hazy. I know there was a game losing misplay here. I was playing around Piercing e on a fragile Energy Field a good majority of the game. I did land two enchantress effects and slammed a confinemt. I chose not to cast an E. Field even though I had the mana in fear of counter? (RIP already down) Not sure why in retrospect… My opponent then bounces confinement and swings for lethal. Onto G3

This game was close. My opponent gets an early flipped delver and drops prostatic pillar. After many exchanges I land the lock and feel good and safe from pillar. My opponent top decks a bounce and bounces E. Field and puts me to 2 with a swing. (I cannot recast E. Field Sacry) I then guile up a Helm and try and resolve it. It works I exile his deck and very very narrowly win.
2-1

Last round – Unknown Player – High Tide 2-1

G1 he puts me on Emrakul I’m sure he heard me talking and BSZ’z me for 61
G2 I board in all 15 cards taking out the damage prevention combo stuff and growths since the all have more value. I T0 a Leyline and T1 Needle on Candelabra and T2 Sterling. He tries to go off T3-ish and makes a ton of mana. I feel like it’s all over. He gets some absurd amount of blue after a few Meditation I believe and attempts to Intuition. I say “hold-up” and ask him to read the card. I then ask him which opponent he is targeting, and he scoops.
G3. First 7 was good but only had Leyline, Serra’s Sanctum, and green spells. Since my opponent ships his I decide to ship mine. My next 6 was a hand with guiles forbidden orchard (needs to be cut) and good hate (I don’t remember specifically which ones. I decide to keep this risky clutch.

T1 on the draw not land I play carpet, and guile. Both resolve. I proceed to play this game this 1 carpet, 1 sanctum, and 1 forbidden for all but the last few turns. I hard cast and resolve Leyline, and get double grove so he cannot bounce anything. I’m slowly dying to a Snapcater and a sprinkling of spirits I gave him. I eventually hit confinement to stop that nonsense and time is called (or it happened in the extra turns not too sure.) I attempt to win with Helm in extra turns but it is forced. The game is a draw, but my opponent graciously concedes for a split.

This put me at 3-0-1 at the end of the tournament which is enough to “win” as for the Friendly Troll Rules 3-0-1 is the equivalent of 3-1 which deems full payout. I was never told nor asked for a placing.

I have no idea if this would have placed me in the T4 or T8, but I do feel it was a good showing.

I will talk about what cards were good and which were bad later.

Jeff, if you're using this thread as a record and discussion the development and strength of the deck, you should be accurate and fair as to identify weaknesses and strengths and overstating results and not reporting accurately how the matches went is a diservice to everyone.

First of all it would have been far more accurate to say you realistically went 2-0-2, and that your 4th round opponent scooped to you so you could prize.

Second, I've been playing stoneblade for 2 years, and you said this was the first time you played this version of enchantress-prison and you went to time twice. You really ought to look at yourself before you accuse anyone of slow play. In our match game 1, I defeated you in 10 minutes, game 2 took over 30 minutes for you to land a win con. Maybe you remember me brainstorming and asking if I played a land, but I remember you browsing your top 3 with mirri's guile every upkeep, drawing your deck every turn with your 3-7 enchantresses and wheel of sun and moon in play. With a few minutes to sidboard between game 1 and 2, there was less then 2 minutes before shuffling for game 3.

Third, it was a 12 person tournament, there is no top 8. If you're using this tournament as a measure of how strong the deck is rather than over stating your success, the realistic results of 2-0-2 should be used. In a 12 person tournament that would put you in the bottom 4.

My opinion of the deck: It has a very weak early game. Any more than 2-3 disruptive elements in the early game will put this deck too far behind with a clock on the table. I would also make the case for abundant growth, the extra card draw would help the early game. But on the same note I would say that carpet of flowers helped you significantly after post board, and this deck can make use of extra mana.

[Freggle]

Jeff, if you're using this thread as a record and discussion the development and strength of the deck, you should be accurate and fair as to identify weaknesses and strengths and overstating results and not reporting accurately how the matches went is a diservice to everyone.

First of all it would have been far more accurate to say you realistically went 2-0-2, and that your 4th round opponent scooped to you so you could prize.

Second, I've been playing stoneblade for 2 years, and you said this was the first time you played this version of enchantress-prison and you went to time twice. You really ought to look at yourself before you accuse anyone of slow play. In our match game 1, I defeated you in 10 minutes, game 2 took over 30 minutes for you to land a win con. Maybe you remember me brainstorming and asking if I played a land, but I remember you browsing your top 3 with mirri's guile every upkeep, drawing your deck every turn with your 3-7 enchantresses and wheel of sun and moon in play. With a few minutes to sidboard between game 1 and 2, there was less then 2 minutes before shuffling for game 3.

Third, it was a 12 person tournament, there is no top 8. If you're using this tournament as a measure of how strong the deck is rather than over stating your success, the realistic results of 2-0-2 should be used. In a 12 person tournament that would put you in the bottom 4.

My opinion of the deck: It has a very weak early game. Any more than 2-3 disruptive elements in the early game will put this deck too far behind with a clock on the table. I would also make the case for abundant growth, the extra card draw would help the early game. But on the same note I would say that carpet of flowers helped you significantly after post board, and this deck can make use of extra mana.

Unsummon, I think all of your points are valid, accurate and fair. I'm am trying to develop as both a deck builder and a player. I have beaten myself many games, and I think I was excited that I didn't beat myself so much this go around. The PLAYER in me was happy with the progress of the split, and "win," but as you point out that is not what this thread is about. Anyone who knows me know my excitement quickly turns to overstatement, but I assure you it is not to deceive. Yet I can see how it can do that.

I should not have posted last night, and saved all this information for a post today and just wrote out the report whenever I had the time to do it properly. As I mention in the original post last night the following:


Full report Tomorrow, but i'm stunned I went through 2 combo decks Rest in Peace is a great card.
I was going to spell out all of the things you detailed.

As for the slow play the deck is slow against counters. There is no question. That is where I think a 4th Mirri's Guile perhaps Abundant Growth and 2 Windswept Heath in place of the Forbidden Orchards could help.

I also think I need to look at Enlightened Tutor as a realistic way to keep up the pressure.

I suspect Mirri's Guile with Abundant Growth & fetches is strong digging / filtering without an enchantress.

Or if it is really just a counter magic issue I can look at City of Solitude, Multani's Presence.

I found there was too much overlap between Choke and Carpet of Flowers so much so I did not bringChoke in against you or boarded them out G3 I forget as you fetched around it.

Perhaps the 3 Choke could be 3 City of Solitude to avoid this overlap.

The post was mis-handled, agreed.

Again, I hope you understand my intent was not to deceive, and I appreciate your point of view. In the end, either I or the deck or both need to be faster as both draws were time related and in my opinion not related to the decks plan.

I hope you stick around and help the development as you are obviously a good player, and carry at least some interesting in the deck.

[lochlan]

You really ought to look at yourself before you accuse anyone of slow play.

To be fair, he was actually accusing you of "Cheating - Stalling" ("Unsummon went into what appeared to me to be clock management mode.")

[Freggle]

To be fair, he was actually accusing you of "Cheating - Stalling" ("Unsummon went into what appeared to me to be clock management mode.")

What is the purpose of this? I have no interest in slandering anyone in person or online.

I included this because there are many outside game things that go into a tournament. There are splits, there are distractions, and there is time management. I wanted to focus on my play, and how I handled myself on my pursuit of being a better player.

Is it the final record, is it the game play, is it the path that is important for these? Being awarded the same prize that all the other winners were is apparently not enough. I believe tying for the best final record for the tournament ( I don't know of any undefeateds) is apparently not enough. Was it all my 75 cards and my masterful play!? NO Absolutely not. There was a lot of garbage that went into it, but it still was my final record.

I was excited I didn't suck as much as all my other reports. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/search.php?searchid=807634)

I find this whole episode disheartening, and it makes me seriously question whether I ever want to do another "tournament report" on here ever again.

[lochlan]

What is the purpose of this? I have no interest in slandering anyone in person or online.

It's actually libel, not slander. But, anyway, this is what you said:


Unsummon went into what appeared to me to be clock management mode. Taking multiple minutes to Brainstorm and asking at least two turns did I play a land.

That is an accusation of "Cheating - Stalling" (albeit a rather subtle and indirect one) as outlined in the IPG (http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/WPN/Main/Documents/Magic_The_Gathering_Infraction_Procedure_Guide_PDF1.pdf) on page 21. There's really no ambiguity here, "management" of the clock in the context of drawing out the game is called "stalling". I thought it was pretty low to call him a cheat and I thought it was worth clarifying the meaning of what you said--since Unsummon incorrectly (and rather generously, I think) said your accusation was of "slow play". I don't really care whether or not you intentionally lied on your tournament report, so please don't let me deter you from writing any tournament reports in the future...but I do hope you'll think twice before suggesting that somebody is cheating.

So, to answer your question: I didn't like what you wrote and I wanted to say something. My "purpose" was to clarify exactly what your accusation was.

[Tormod]

@ Freggle

Jeff, To be honest, your accusation of stalling was offensive to me.

Look at it from my perspective. I came home going 3-0-1, I was feeling pretty good about the events of the night. I log onto source and I see a post from a player who I faced round 1 saying he beat me 2-1 and how he went 4-0 to take down a local toronto tournament. Being there I know the events of the night, that our match we went 1-1 and drew, you won rounds 2 and 3 and your 4th round match went to time and your opponent scooped to you so you could prize.

I posted in order to correct the false record.

I log back on later and see that you accused of me cheating in your tournament report.


This game went on too long, and Unsummon went into what appeared to me to be clock management mode. Taking multiple minutes to Brainstorm and asking at least two turns did I play a land. I ask him to pick-up the pace and play a land if he wants because I wasn’t sure if he did, but I wanted to save time. I eventually won off of Sigil of the empty Throne with 3 minutes in the round.

I say well lets go to game 3. He tells me that this is a tournament that only pays out x-1’s and that we should just win out from here. I say let’s play it’s in his favor because I don’t win fast. He proceeds to talk for at least another minute, and I then agree not to start G3. This was a mistake on my part, as I feel a winner should have tried to have been determined. In retrospect I should have forced the issue, but I did not.
1-1

Whats my reaction other to think you're a two-faced piece of work who accused me of cheating when I caught you lying in a tournament report. Its a serious thing to accuse someone of cheating and not only do you accuse me of cheating, you also fabricated a case in your report of how you appeared as a white knight against an unfair villain. I didn't see any accusations for the 4th round match that went to time or any protests about how the match wasn't determined, but I did see you happy that he scooped to you so you could prize.

The best tournament reports I've read are the ones that not everything goes perfectly. Not all Tournament reports don't need to be success stories, but they should be accurate and they should be fair.

Have some respect for the truth and some integrity.


@lochlan

Thank you

[Freggle]

Unsummon, I'm truly sorry you were offended, and I'm sorry it was my actions that caused it. It was wrong of me to not properly proofread my initial post, and it was wrong of me to explicitly state you were not cheating. Is there anything I can do, from here, to turn this relationship around to a more positive one?

[Tormod]

Unsummon, I'm truly sorry you were offended, and I'm sorry it was my actions that caused it. It was wrong of me to not properly proofread my initial post, and it was wrong of me to explicitly state you were not cheating. Is there anything I can do, from here, to turn this relationship around to a more positive one?

Huh? are you Trolling?

[Dihensoeur]

(Can you please discuss via PM instead of in this thread ?)

I would to discuss about Enchantress.
The old kills of enchantress (Sigil and Words) are now useless because we have an instant kill (Helm) and an uncounter kill (Emrakul).
That allow us to have more slot to protect us or protect the combo or accelerate us.
There are many way for Enchantress : back to Living Wish ? :g::u::w: Counterbalance ? No protection and try to cast Helm/Emrakul as soon as possible ?

I'm testing my list to build matchs up VS Tiers decks and I will post it when I finish.

I would to know your opinion about it and your suggestion. I'm asking some questions about my side, but I need more tests before change it.

My actual list :

1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Tundra
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
10 Forest

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Argothian Enchantress

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle

1 City of Solitude
1 Detention Sphere
1 Equipoise
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Abundant Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

1 Crop Rotation
3 Enlightened Tutor

Sideboard:
1 Cursed Totem
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Nevermore
1 Humility
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Rule of Law
2 Replenish
1 Equipoise
3 Pithing Needle

Thanks you.

[Freggle]

I would to discuss about Enchantress.
The old kills of enchantress (Sigil and Words) are now useless because we have an instant kill (Helm) and an uncounter kill (Emrakul).

Dihensoeur, although I enjoy your adamancy I would caution you on saying that Sigil of the Empty Throneand Words of War are useless.

I think a safer statement would be that since you find greater flexibility with Enlightened Tutor you don't have to play Sterling Grove and these two wins loose value.


That allow us to have more slot to protect us or protect the combo or accelerate us.
There are many way for Enchantress : back to Living Wish ? :g::u::w: Counterbalance ? No protection and try to cast Helm/Emrakul as soon as possible ?

Living Wish - Without playing it I don't know what to make of Living Wish I have a suspicion it can be good. It would however take careful consideration of how your now modified sideboard does, or does not interact with the broad meta.

Counterbalance - I have tested this, and at the time I came to the conclusion that Counterbalance although good made my mana base weaker (no Abundant Growth though) and was not congruent with the rest of the deck. Enchantress likes to tap out. So playing this with top just made a slow deck unbearable. My assessment could be wrong or dated however ( 3 months ago)


I'm testing my list to build matchs up VS Tiers decks and I will post it when I finish. I look forward to this. If you can include which cards you think were top performers in your specific match ups and which were not that would help me quite a bit.


I would to know your opinion about it and your suggestion. I'm asking some questions about my side, but I need more tests before change it.

My actual list :

1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Tundra
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
10 Forest

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Argothian Enchantress

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle

1 City of Solitude
1 Detention Sphere
1 Equipoise
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Abundant Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

1 Crop Rotation
3 Enlightened Tutor

Sideboard:
1 Cursed Totem
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Nevermore
1 Humility
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Rule of Law
2 Replenish
1 Equipoise
3 Pithing Needle

Thanks you.

If I could get a break down on your sideboard and how you intend to use it that would help. Like when, if you do, do you side out the Rest in Peace to bring in the Replenish?

Equipoise - I know you really believe in this card, but I'm having difficulty seeing it. the best case you gave was a situation with Gaddock Teeg, but that seems too narrow especially for main. Having read-up on the card and seeing that the the creatures enter the battlefield in the untap phase thus avoiding summoning sickness made it loos a lot of value or me. What tricks am I missing?

Edit: Helpful Links I found:

On the Helm Combo (http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_helm_combo_with_rob_.html)

On Enchantress (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDoQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.starcitygames.com%2Fmagic%2Flegacy%2F18585_Legacys_Allure_Building_a_Metagamed_Enchantress_List.html&ei=IAiGUISNG4ai8QT31YHwAw&usg=AFQjCNHnmrzKpSYgTV80C9pK-2lY6LUJlA)

[Dihensoeur]

Living Wish - Without playing it I don't know what to make of Living Wish I have a suspicion it can be good. It would however take careful consideration of how your now modified sideboard does, or does not interact with the broad meta.

Counterbalance - I have tested this, and at the time I came to the conclusion that Counterbalance although good made my mana base weaker (no Abundant Growth though) and was not congruent with the rest of the deck. Enchantress likes to tap out. So playing this with top just made a slow deck unbearable. My assessment could be wrong or dated however ( 3 months ago)


I think the same for Living Wish, too slow for me and take lot of place in sideboard.



If I could get a break down on your sideboard and how you intend to use it that would help. Like when, if you do, do you side out the Rest in Peace to bring in the Replenish?

Replenish is useful and more useful than Leyline versus discard decks because discard decks are often :b::g: (so Pernicious deed....) or :b::u: (counter spell). We need to keep Rest in peace for combo and for the opponent which often use his graveyard.



Equipoise - I know you really believe in this card, but I'm having difficulty seeing it. the best case you gave was a situation with Gaddock Teeg, but that seems too narrow especially for main. Having read-up on the card and seeing that the the creatures enter the battlefield in the untap phase thus avoiding summoning sickness made it loos a lot of value or me. What tricks am I missing?

Equipoise : When cards phase in, they don't trigger their abilities. Equipoise allow us to remove creatures like Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, Meddling mage....and to remove all artifacts like Canonist,Lodestone golem,Chalice of the void,Trinisphere,Pithing Needle,Sensei's divining top,Phyrexian revoker....and it destroy all tokens (a token phase out = destroyed) so you manage Empty the warren but Batterskull too and all others tokens (Angel,zombie...).
It's a weapon VS countertop because you phase out Sensei top. There are lot of cards that can be phase out by Equipoise to have play our turn in peace.

[unicoerner]

Hi,
i felt that Control was my worst MU even with 3 Choke. What do you think about Xantid Swarms in the side?
They will side out their spot removal and we can now resolve our enchantress effects.

[Freggle]

Hi,
i felt that Control was my worst MU even with 3 Choke. What do you think about Xantid Swarms in the side?
They will side out their spot removal and we can now resolve our enchantress effects.

unicoerner I agree, control is the hardest match-up. I no longer think that Choke is the correct card for this match-up.

Carpet of Flowers does a lot of work (more than Choke) and the overlap between the two is too much. (people will fetch around carpet side stepping both.)

I do not think Xantid Swarm is the correct answer. It is wrong to think that people will side out all removal. RUG will keep in bolts. Stoneforge will keep in Jitte... therefore, I personally feel that is not the correct choice.

I'm not quite sure of the best way to deal with this. The next thing I will personally try is City of Solitude for Choke. This way carpet can still do it's work, and city becomes a must counter or a counter less game.

I also feel that enchantress decks can always use more redundancy, and adding a possible 4th Mirri's Guile may be correct as they both help discard and control match-ups our two worst.

I am also considering removing the Elephant Grasses (as suggested by many) for Abundant Growth. Abundant will help us did for answers in these disruptive match-ups without an enchantress effect as well as fix our mana.

Abundant's draw should put us into more Energy Fields and confinements therefore possibly negating the need to run grass's temporary effect. I'm not sure if it will work, but I will test it when I have time.

Those changes could possibly improve the overall deck in all match-ups including our worst control and black discard/sacrifice decks. Hopefully that helps.

[unicoerner]

The big upside of Xantid is that it comes down so fast. If they can handle it with jittie we have already played our most important spells. Resolving our first Enchantress effect is the big thing. Everything else is way less important.
City of Solitude has imo the same problem as Choke. It comes down too late. At this point we probably got an enchantress effect countered or we had to wait until round 3 or four to even try to cast it.

I even was thinking about boarding in Mindbreak Traps against Control and boarding some other 2 cards.
Trap could help us to resolve this one important enchantress effect. It might look crazy, but if we have some in our side for Combo we could bring them in vs Control, too.

[Freggle]

The big upside of Xantid is that it comes down so fast. If they can handle it with jittie we have already played our most important spells. Resolving our first Enchantress effect is the big thing. Everything else is way less important.
City of Solitude has imo the same problem as Choke. It comes down too late. At this point we probably got an enchantress effect countered or we had to wait until round 3 or four to even try to cast it.

I even was thinking about boarding in Mindbreak Traps against Control and boarding some other 2 cards.
Trap could help us to resolve this one important enchantress effect. It might look crazy, but if we have some in our side for Combo we could bring them in vs Control, too.

unicoerner, don't get me wrong Xantid Swarm does show some potential I just don't feel it is the best fit. One of the strangest parts of this deck is it blanks opponents removal, and Xantid gives them a target. It also has to attack so anything flying could give it trouble. Please do not take my comments as a reason not to test I have been wrong before, but I do feel there are better options.

If you want something that can affect the resolution of an Argothian Enchantress turn two I would suggest Autumn's Veil Playing with this card allows you to still play your T1 ramp/growth and then T2 Arothian with Veil (if needed.) This way you force your opponent to 1. have the counterspell, and 2. have back-up.

I have thought about this card for the sideboard for a while, but I have never tested it. In the same vein I have played a version that main decked Spell Pierce. This was in a build where I was playing pain rainbow lands and the damage to stop stuff didn't seem worth it in the end. Now that we are on a much better mana base Spell Pierce may be a strong option again as it will help us force through our important pieces and/or also slow our opponent whichever yields greater results for us at the time. It does slow down reanimator.

I suggested City of Solitude not as a card to play before the enchantress, but to play whenever to draw the counter or shut off that plan. It is decent. As you have said in your post you have resolved a Choke, well if it were a City your problems would be solved. What I do not like is that it can get pierced fairly easily and doesn't draw out the hard counter. It's still a solid option though.

What I am going to try is something like the list below (I made the changes bold):


Main Deck (60)

Enchantress Engine
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Green Sun's Zenith*

Ramp
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl

Card Selection Engine - Improved (plus items with an *)
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Abundant Growth

Lock
4 Energy Field
2 Sterling Grove*
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Pithing Needle
4 Rest in Peace

Wins
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Words of Wind
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Mana
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest*
7 Forest
2 Windswept Heath*
2 Karakas
1 Island
2 Serra's Sanctum


Sideboard (15)

4 Multani's Presence
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sterling Grove

This list doesn't look to force anything through, but it looks to play the numbers game and win when your opponent is out of counters, or through Emrakul.

Control decks can not counter everything, and this list looks to sneak through carpets and Multani's to keep the pressure mounting to finally break through the counter wall. Both of those cards are easily cast and can sneak under Daze & Spell Pierce quite well to form an alternative draw engine until we stick an enchantress effect. This list does not aim to resolve the first enchantress, but it aims to resolve an enchantress. Through the improved card selection engine we should be able to present threats to draw out the counters and stack the deck to draw into more must counters. When I have time I will test it, but I think it can work.

[Dihensoeur]

@Unicoerner: Try Xantid Swarm and tell us the result.

Spell Pierce: it can be a solution to protect mains enchantments and a weapon versus combo.

@Freggle: I counted 61 cards in your deck :smile: .
You prefer Mirri's Guile instead of Enlightened Tutor ?
I don't think Mirri is better. I suggest x2 Mirri's Guile and x2 Enlightened Tutor.
Why do you keep Sigil ?
Have you already try Words of wind with Cloud of Faeries ? You need only to have :3::g::u: on 2 lands to combo.

I have finished MUs VS Storm and OmniShow with my last list:

Storm: 30/70 - 45/55 (Side : x1 chalice of the void, x1 Mindbreak trap, x1 Canonist, x1 Rule of law, x1 nevermore)

OmniShow: 20/80 - 40/60 (Side : x1 chalice of the void, x1 Oblivion Ring, x1 nevermore, x1 humility)

I can't win the first round without very big luck (like kill T3 with Helm and the opponent has no counter/discard and no luck).
Then, even with side, Storm/OmniShow can managed them with discard or others cards like Shattering Spree.
Both doesn't like Chalice with 1 and/or 2 counters.

Storm:
This deck is very fast and discard turn 1 or before start combo so even we have a side card in start hand, it's not enough.
And even with Canonist on the battlefield, I'm often too slow to kill my opponent before he get a spell to manage Canonist and start combo.
Maybe the solution is LeyLine:w: MD or in additional side.

OmniShow:
When Omniscience is on the battlefield, the game is lost...We need to have lot of Oblivion Ring to remove it during Show&Tell, put a Emrakul is completely useless vs Omniscience. A chalice with 1 counter help to slow the opponent and a chalice with 2 counters avoid him to cast Burning Wish to get Emrakul (with Time of need) or to get storm kill.
Cast Nevermore for Show&Tell can win the game but it will always countered.

[Freggle]

You prefer Mirri's Guile instead of Enlightened Tutor ?
My short answer is yes. My long answer... I don't think the two are comparable / perform the same function.

In the actual Established Enchantress thread. We discussed the benefits and drawbacks of Energy Field vs. Solitary Confinement and although both have a lot of overlap we realized that each have their own unique pros and cons and I deemed that in my developmental lists that both should be run.

I feel that Mirri's guile and Enlightened Tutor will have a similar outcome. Initially I played Enlightened Tutor in my :u: enchantress deck. I liked it, but I had grown to hate the card disadvantage, and the way it didn't work well with a fragile Energy Field.

I began to test Mirri's Guile and was taken back as to how good it was. I feel it allows the deck to avoid mulliganing a lot (a common problem for enchantress decks.) It also helps stabilize Solitary Confinement, and makes / made the choice to pay for Elephant Grass easier (knowing what was coming.

On MTG Salvation people talk about the strongest opener for the standard GWx list is T1 growth, T2 Argothian --> Guile. It is very strong, and smooths out the deck quite a bit. I feel the lists that I played with guile vs. the lists I played without that the lists with were overall more sound, and "failed" less (a string of bad top decks costing a match)

I used to think Mirri's Guile was nothing but a durdle card, but I have to eat my words / thoughts on that as I have been proven wrong in testing it.

...but to answer your question do I like or feel that Mirri's Guile is more important to the deck than Enlightened Tutor? Yes, but a mix like confinement / E. Field is likely the most correct.

Over the course of a match or a tournament it is my estimation that Mirri's Guile will do more "work" than an Enlightened Tutor but be far more subtle about it.


Why do you keep Sigil ?

I keep Sigil of the Empty Throne because if it is not interacted with on the stack and you have a Sterling Grove out you will almost certainly win as it is very difficult to deal with. I like that it can not be affected by revokers / needles. I think it's good to have an attacking wincon and a targeted wincon at the very least. Emrakul can be the sole attacker, but I'm trying to find ways to close out games faster. It should be noted that I do question it though.



Have you already try Words of wind with Cloud of Faeries ? You need only to have :3::g::u: on 2 lands to combo.

I know of the other :ug: lists out there, but I'm not looking to go infinite with it, just be annoying and bounce controls stuff. It's likely wrong, but I wanted to put something different in for Oblivion Ring since under confinement you don't want to see it usually. I want to find a way to get at least 3 if not 4 o-rings in the board for show and tell / Hypergenesis decks, but not main I don't think.

As for the 61st card. Yeah I messed up. I'm genuinely concerned with my reading comprehension / writing / communication lately. Sorry for the oversight.

For Storm I would recommend Leyline of Sanctity. This is another card I'm not particularly fond of because of it's variance, but I do think it is our best weapon. Paired with Sterling Grove it's quite good, not unbeatable, but good.

@Dihensoeur - Why all of the "1 of's" in both you main and board?

[Dihensoeur]

My short answer is yes. My long answer... I don't think the two are comparable / perform the same function...
Ok! It's true that Mirri's Guile is a strong card T1/T2.
Have you already try Ancestral Knowledge ? An Enchantress player suggest it.



I keep Sigil of the Empty Throne because if it is not interacted with on the stack and you have a Sterling Grove out you will almost certainly win as it is very difficult to deal with. I like that it can not be affected by revokers / needles. I think it's good to have an attacking wincon and a targeted wincon at the very least. Emrakul can be the sole attacker, but I'm trying to find ways to close out games faster. It should be noted that I do question it though.

Sigil of the Empty Throne still too slow and give targets for removal (like Xantid Swarm). It can't be affected by revokers / needles but by Stifle and revokers / needles can be easily managed by Enchantress (Oring/Equipoise/Seal). Ok Sigil put tokens even enchantments are countered that's cool. But I don't think that's enough.



For Storm I would recommend Leyline of Sanctity. This is another card I'm not particularly fond of because of it's variance, but I do think it is our best weapon. Paired with Sterling Grove it's quite good, not unbeatable, but good.

I already tested Leyline + Sterling Grove VS Storm and it doesn't work. You need to win to have x1 Leyline in hand and put 2 Sterling Grove before Storm start and the probability to do it is very small. And even you have all put, it can win with Hibernation or Empty the warren. Leyline can protect us from discard to put T2 a Canonist to get time to kill him before he manage our Canonist, I think this is actually the best solution.



@Dihensoeur - Why all of the "1 of's" in both you main and board?
To have a little solution MD and to reinforce it with sideboard.

I'm changing completely my deck and sideboard to improve MU vs OmniShow. I'm testing Cloud of faeries with :u:Words.

[Freggle]

Have you already try Ancestral Knowledge ? An Enchantress player suggest it.

I have. I really like the card, but at the time (again the pain lands build) it felt like too much durdleing. I still don't think it's the right fit, but if it would be it would be like a "1 of" like you Sylvan Library in control list, and not a 4 or feature as it's utility only comes in mid to late game.



Sigil of the Empty Throne still too slow and give targets for removal (like Xantid Swarm). It can't be affected by revokers / needles but by Stifle and revokers / needles can be easily managed by Enchantress (Oring/Equipoise/Seal). Ok Sigil put tokens even enchantments are countered that's cool. But I don't think that's enough.

You may be right. If anything the more and more I play this deck I think it should be Luminarch Ascension or Hoofprints of the Stagif I wanted that type of effect. The 5 CMC of Sigil is too easily beat with a mid game Pierce.

I'm considering that switch OR just another Helm of Obedience



I already tested Leyline + Sterling Grove VS Storm and it doesn't work. You need to win to have x1 Leyline in hand and put 2 Sterling Grove before Storm start and the probability to do it is very small. And even you have all put, it can win with Hibernation or Empty the warren. Leyline can protect us from discard to put T2 a Canonist to get time to kill him before he manage our Canonist, I think this is actually the best solution.

What storm deck are you testing against, and how do they beat this consistently against you? Leyline is also strong against discard and sacrifice effects so it fill many roles. Again, I know the card can be a little high variance, but what is the alternative?



I'm changing completely my deck and sideboard to improve MU vs OmniShow. I'm testing Cloud of faeries with :u:Words.

Keep us posted. Omni-show comes down to 4 Oblivion Rings in the board I feel. I like Oblivion Ring over Detention Sphere at the moment because we can more consistently hard cast it when we face Chalice of the Void.dec

4 Ring in the board, and 4 Mirri's Guile make the odds pretty good you'll have one in hand as early as turn 2.

Probability of having a Mirri's Guile or Oblivion Ring in hand turn 1. 65.3593571031819%

Probability of finding one by turn 2 if you on the draw and resolve Guile: 21.737556561086%

* Please double check my math I'm using the online calculator here (http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx)

If the deck does run Enlightened Tutor paths to Oblivion Ring increase.

I have been testing (2) Enlightened Tutor with (4) Mirri's Guile and have been very happy with the mix.

I'm very interested in learning more of how to mathematically approach the card mix to find the optimal tune of various builds. I have some leads with friends as to how I should approach this, but if anyone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate this. (I'd like to figure in Guile triggers and fetch shuffles so yeah it's currently way beyond me)

[TheSleeper]

I think Leyline/Grove is ok against Combo. Having said that, I've lost in a tourney turn 2 to ANT despite having both in play. Ad Nauseum into double bounce.. dead. Made me wonder why I bothered. Leyline happens to be good against other decks running Thoughtseize anyways, so there's no reason not to play it vs combo I suppose. Something like Mind Break trap would probably catch them off guard better, depends on your meta if you can justify the space for it though, since its narrow.

[Freggle]

I think Leyline/Grove is ok against Combo. Having said that, I've lost in a tourney turn 2 to ANT despite having both in play. Ad Nauseum into double bounce.. dead. Made me wonder why I bothered. Leyline happens to be good against other decks running Thoughtseize anyways, so there's no reason not to play it vs combo I suppose. Something like Mind Break trap would probably catch them off guard better, depends on your meta if you can justify the space for it though, since its narrow.

I'm not ANT expert, but from reading the established thread on this forum I think ANT lists with double bounce are fairly rare. However, given your meta I would ask are you also running (3) Pithing Needle? I think if you pre-game Leyline and Turn 1 Needle you should be okay and even better on a turn 2 Sterling Grove.

Edit: I forgot for a second that Needle doesn't work on LED.

Is that a nutz draw? Yes. ...but (again not an expert) isn't a turn 2 double bounce draw a nutz draw for ANT?

I think this is a better plan because they expect to play through counter magic and run a mess of targeted discard / Silence effects. They also don't run any symmetrical draw 7's (to my knowledge.) So I see the success Mindbreak Trap seems equally if not more weak. ...I do see that Gainsay's WoW list did run Mindbreak Trap so maybe I'm wrong. I still need to test Gainsay's list to understand the interactions better.

[Dihensoeur]

I don't believe in Leyline+Grove to beat Storm (too slow and to difficult to put 2 grove). ANT can reuse bounce with Ill-Gotten Gains and has often 2 or more bounce in side.
My suggest :
- x4 Leyline to prevent of discard
- x1 Canonist to stop storm and gain time before he manages it. Canonist can be put get with tutor T1 and put T2.
- x1 Rule of law to stop storm and to force opponent to manage Canonist AND Rule of law (that are need differents cards to be managed)
- x2 Chalice of the void : Chalice with 1 counter quickly can slow ANT and Chalice with 2 counters "kill" ANT (because all ANT's tutors cost 2)

My strategy is to slow him and kill him as fast as possible with Helm.

Mindbreak trap can be a solution, but be careful of Silence.


OmniShow:
I think too that ORing is the best solution with some Nevermore to consume counterspell.



Faeries + Word :u: :
I think this combo work only if the deck is only focused on the combo like Enchantress TOP8.
For the moment, I prefer Helm.

[Freggle]

I don't believe in Leyline+Grove to beat Storm (too slow and to difficult to put 2 grove). ANT can reuse bounce with Ill-Gotten Gains and has often 2 or more bounce in side.
My suggest :
- x4 Leyline to prevent of discard
- x1 Canonist to stop storm and gain time before he manages it. Canonist can be put get with tutor T1 and put T2.
- x1 Rule of law to stop storm and to force opponent to manage Canonist AND Rule of law (that are need differents cards to be managed)
- x2 Chalice of the void : Chalice with 1 counter quickly can slow ANT and Chalice with 2 counters "kill" ANT (because all ANT's tutors cost 2)

My strategy is to slow him and kill him as fast as possible with Helm.

Mindbreak trap can be a solution, but be careful of Silence.


OmniShow:
I think too that ORing is the best solution with some Nevermore to consume counterspell.



Faeries + Word :u: :
I think this combo work only if the deck is only focused on the combo like Enchantress TOP8.
For the moment, I prefer Helm.

@ANT MU - I don't agree with shutting off our own engine in an attempt to stop our opponent.

I think it's good we agree that Leyline of Sanctity is the best card out there to combat discard (amongst other things) and that we should pack 4 in the sideboard.

I think we also agree that we should be packing (4) Oblivion Ring in the sideboard to combat Show and Tell based combo decks & Chalice of the Void decks (amongst other randoms.) That would leave us with (7) remaining slots to play with.

Of these (7) I pretty firmly believe that at least (3) should be given to Carpet of Flowers to swap in over Wild Growth for mana advantage over :u: decks. That gives us (4) total question slots.

The more and more I think about this I feel that 1-3 of these slots (depending on how many are already main) should be for more Green Sun's Zenith to either bring the total count to 3 or 4.

This will give us the most redundancy to push through an early enchantress effect against control.

The last few should be Pithing Needle in my mind. This card can always do something to varying degrees of success. Mainly it can cut off a number of commonly played sweepers like Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, or any plansewaker.

Against Maverick it can shut off Qusali Pridemadge, Karakas (Emrakul), Maze of Ith

Against :u: WoW Enchantress it can name Words of Wind

...I can go through a number of MU's where the card is really good (which I will at some point) but that is beside the point.

I think Chalice of the Void is a good card but a bit narrow in our uses. If I were to play it against ANT I'd drop it for 0. To cut off all of their free storm, and color fixing mana.

Vs. ANT we/I already run (2) Sterling Grove main to combat random what not, or become a bad-ish tutor.

We also main deck (4) Rest in Peace severely limiting Cabal Ritual and Past in Flames

We can drop Pithing Needle on fetches T1 to increase the disruption.

Then we have Solitary Confinement to hide behind if we slowed them down enough.

To me that is plenty. Our nuts opener vs. them would be pre-game Leyline, T1 Needle (fetch of choice- Delta?), T2 RIP or Sterling Grove

If I wanted to experiment I might try (1) Taiga main and (1-2) Blood Moon in the board.

Then you could go Pre-game Leyline, T1 Ramp/Growth, T2 Moon if you had the nuts, but your worse off against High Tide if you go for that plan and it requires more card to fall your way for that to work.

I would not cut off your 1's with Chalice, and I would not cut off our draw engine with Ethersworn either, because you are limiting your ability to win. ...but that is just me.

Also, against control - Emrakul has been proven as a reliable win condition vs. them, however just wait until you can go infinite with Karakas so you don't get board swept (if you have RIP out.) Pithing Needle on Wasteland is acceptable in this MU after EE.

EDIT:
Here is where I currently am with my 75:

Maindeck

Creatures (5)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Argothian Enchantress

Enchantments (30)
Ramp
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Wild Growth

Consistency
2 Abundant Growth
2 Sterling Grove
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Enchantress's Presence

Disruption
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement

Alternative Win
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Artifacts (2)
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle

Instants (2)
2 Enlightened Tutor

Sorceries (2)
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands (19)
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
7 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 City of Brass
1 Island


Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sterling Grove

General Sideboarding:

Generic Blue Control: -3 Wild Growth -2 Sterling Grove -1 Enlightened Tutor +3 Carpet of Flowers +2 Green Sun's Zenith +1 Pithing Needle

Generic Black Disruption -2 Sterling Grove -2 Abundant Growth -1 Enlightened Tutor +4 Leyline of Sanctity +1 Pithing Needle

Generic Green Sun's Aggro -2 Abundant Growth +1 Pithing Needle +1 Sterling Grove

Generic Show and Tell -3 Wild Growth -2 Sterling Grove -1 Pithing Needle -1 Green Sun's Zenith +3 Carpet of Flowers + 4 Oblivion Ring


...I can detail more if interested.

[Dihensoeur]

Of these (7) I pretty firmly believe that at least (3) should be given to Carpet of Flowers to swap in over Wild Growth for mana advantage over :u: decks. That gives us (4) total question slots.

The more and more I think about this I feel that 1-3 of these slots (depending on how many are already main) should be for more Green Sun's Zenith to either bring the total count to 3 or 4.

This will give us the most redundancy to push through an early enchantress effect against control.


I don't know if it's the best strategy VS control. We have always the plan Replenish that we should not forget. It can be a good strategy vs control, :b: disrupt, :g::b: destruction and artifact destruction. And we can use chalice with 1 counter that control doesn't appreciate.
But it's true that Carpet of flowers allows to ramp very quickly (no place actually in my sideboard for it).



If I wanted to experiment I might try (1) Taiga main and (1-2) Blood Moon in the board.

For me Back to basics is better than Blood Moon. It paralyzes the opponent instead of Blood Moon for which opponent responses with fetch to get basic land and use non basic land as uncolor mana and so can always play many spells.



I would not cut off your 1's with Chalice, and I would not cut off our draw engine with Ethersworn either, because you are limiting your ability to win. ...but that is just me.

Helm allows us to kill in the turn and it's an artifact so it isn't affected by Ethersworn Canonist and we can tutor it during the opponent's turn. (We can kill with Ethersworn too :D ).

We need to participate in many tournaments to really test our deck ^_^.

[manugl84]

Look at this two lists. Top1 and top4 in a 42 man tournament.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9537&iddeck=69595

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9537&iddeck=69598

IMHO, there are too many helms on both (I´d rather have one more win con), but props to them.

Like to see this deck making good results. I´ve been an enchantress player since legacy is legacy and is good to see different builds.:smile:

[Dihensoeur]

Look at this two lists. Top1 and top4 in a 42 man tournament.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9537&iddeck=69595

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9537&iddeck=69598

IMHO, there are too many helms on both (I´d rather have one more win con), but props to them.

Like to see this deck making good results. I´ve been an enchantress player since legacy is legacy and is good to see different builds.:smile:

Thanks you for your links! I discovered a good combo : Web of Inertia + Rest in Peace. With this, we can stop aggro but stop Emrakul too! So no annihilator effect!

[jjuday25]

[QUOTE=AlmostGrown;680646]How good were the Living Wishes for you? I'm skeptical at a Wishboard in any deck outside of "true" combo, but it looks really good in this deck.[/QUOTE

I like the wishboard a lot. Has anyone ever considered a cavern of souls in the s.b.? I think it would help a lot In the blue match ups to land our critical enchantress,even though I know this build isn't as focused on the engine itself.

[Dihensoeur]

I like the wishboard a lot. Has anyone ever considered a cavern of souls in the s.b.? I think it would help a lot In the blue match ups to land our critical enchantress,even though I know this build isn't as focused on the engine itself.

Already considered. But I have no place in sideboard to add lands/creatures and no place MD to add Living Wish. I don't believe in living wish.

[LurkingMatt]

I don't believe in Leyline+Grove to beat Storm (too slow and to difficult to put 2 grove). ANT can reuse bounce with Ill-Gotten Gains and has often 2 or more bounce in side.
My suggest :
- x4 Leyline to prevent of discard
- x1 Canonist to stop storm and gain time before he manages it. Canonist can be put get with tutor T1 and put T2.
- x1 Rule of law to stop storm and to force opponent to manage Canonist AND Rule of law (that are need differents cards to be managed)
- x2 Chalice of the void : Chalice with 1 counter quickly can slow ANT and Chalice with 2 counters "kill" ANT (because all ANT's tutors cost 2)

My strategy is to slow him and kill him as fast as possible with Helm.

Mindbreak trap can be a solution, but be careful of Silence.


OmniShow:
I think too that ORing is the best solution with some Nevermore to consume counterspell.



Faeries + Word :u: :
I think this combo work only if the deck is only focused on the combo like Enchantress TOP8.
For the moment, I prefer Helm.

You should strongly consider Suppression Field vs Storm.dec.

All except Tide tend to deploy lots of nonland mana sources + fetches.
Combine it with at least one chrome mox and see them pale *g*
Should resolve the tempo race.

It also shines when resolved early vs RUG/ BUG.

Alternatively Runed Halo and Nevermore, though slow
can save you starting T2.

Regards,
Matt

[Dihensoeur]

You should strongly consider Suppression Field vs Storm.dec.




Suppression Field
Activated abilities cost more to activate unless they're mana abilities.

I don't understand why Suppression Field can be used vs Storm.dec. It doesn't work for Lotus petal or Lion's Eye Diamond because they are mana abilities. Can you explain me please ?



It also shines when resolved early vs RUG/ BUG.

I agreed. But need at least 3 slots for them and they are not compatible with Helm/Words.

I abandoned Suppression Field for Pithing Needle to fight planeswalker. Even if Suppression Field affect planeswalkers, I saw in test that it's not good enough.



Alternatively Runed Halo and Nevermore, though slow
can save you starting T2.

Runed Halo doesn't work for Empty the warrens but can be a help for Tendrils if we are a slot for it.
I agreed for Nevermore (I play one in SB), it can be used for Show&Tell.dec too.

[Dihensoeur]

My last list:
Lands:
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
7 Forest

Accelerating/Draw:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

Kills:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Helm of Obedience

Tutor:
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mirri's Guile

Control/Protection:
1 Puca's Mischief (can be a kill too)
1 City of Solitude
1 Nevermore
1 Solitary Confinement
2 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Energy Field
4 Kirtar's Desire
4 Rest in Peace

Sideboard:
1 Equipoise
1 Cursed Totem
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rule of Law
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Pithing Needle
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Nevermore
2 Leyline of Sanctity

What's new?
Kirtar's Desire: Because Energy Field/Mitard is not enough sufficient (mostly with Abrupt Decay) and not enough fast depending of the situation. Stop a Delver T1 or a Lackey is very good, can be easily pass over Spell Pierce or Daze. And it's good for us if opponent use spell on it instead of other enchantments.

Puca's Mischief: I like this card. We can get easily any opponent's permanent (like creatures or planeswalker). It's a good card of control and can be a kill (with opponent's permanent).
Example: you can exchange a wild growth with a Deathrite Shaman or Delver or Germ (Batterskull) and Wild Growth still in your land and so continue to give you additional mana!
There is a combo with Illusions of Grandeur but I don't like it. I find Mischief enough.

Leyline of Sanctity x2 MD: It's a test. Only x2 because it's not essential to have it in start hand for the first round, but it can be useful in MidGame.

What do you think?

Regards.

[Freggle]

It's nice to see others are still tinkering with this combo.

Having played many versions of this deck I can fairly safely say that this is not like the GWx lists. Our primary goal is not to silver bullet our opponent until we can get absurd amounts of mana and finish them off with a bunch of angles or Words of War. Our "silver bullet" is to just win. All of our card choices should look to forward that goal.

With the rise of BG lists running Abrupt Decay Energy Field did loose a lot of potency. So much so that I would actually table them for the time being.

Since most of those lists also sporting discard it only makes sense that we focus our energy on card draw and make every card count.

This gives rise to cards Abundant Growth and Ground Seal, and the sorting of Mirri's Guile. These will allow us to fight through tough openers where we face off against a ton of discard.

This also gives us some tools to fight through some board sweepers.

Here is a list I have been testing:

Creatures (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress

Enchantments (32)
4 Abundant Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Ground Seal
4 Rest in Peace
4 Solitary Confinement

Artifacts (3)
3 Helm of Obedience

Lands (19)
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
15 Forest

Sideboard (15)
3 Seal of Primordium
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
4 City of Solitude

This list is very stable / resilient. The card draw allows us to fight through a lot of disruption while dig for our combo. It also makes an early Solitary Confinement stable. I'm not sure where, but the 75 should find room for 3-4 Karmic Justice for sweepers.

This list is not looking to protect any combo, but to win attrition wars with speed and draw. Sice we want to blow away the yard anyhow Leyline of the Void[cards] can come in vs. BG decks to nullify 1/2 of [cards]Cabal Therapy & other trix those decks have as well is a pretty good hoser of most combo.

It's also one of our biggest fears to get our Helm of Obedience's extracted so it's better just to make sure they get exiled in those MU's.

So this is where I'm at. Different approach, but still quite potent.

[hqql]

Hey all.

First off, I'm new. Not only to the forum, but as well to Enchantress, and Legacy in general. That being said, I try to read as much as I can on both, and that's exactly what brought me here. Someone mentioned this combo in a topic on the mtgsalvation forums and I couldn't help but wonder why one wouldn't want to rebuild the deck around this combo, since it's a lot faster than the classic enchantress wincons. Since the people there seem to like the way Enchantress is (I guess) I did some research of my own and quickly stumbled upon your humble topic. You guys are awesome. I even saw someone mention Web of Inertia/RIP as a possible combo for the deck (it's on my decklist), I feel like I'm in mtg heaven here :P

Ok, so enough of the yada-yada, right? I came here to talk about HelmChantRest.

Maindeck

Creatures (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress

Enchantments (28)
The basis
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
The protection/control
1 Web of Inertia
3 Sterling Grove
3 Energy Field
The new
3 Ancestral Knowledge
3 Root Maze

Instants (5)
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Abolish

Artifacts (6)
3 Mox Diamond
3 Helm of Obedience

Lands (17)
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
5 Forest

Sideboard
1 Stony Silence
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Detention Sphere
1 Karmic Justice
1 Runed Halo
1 Aura of Silence
1 City of Solitude
2 Cursed Totem
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Elephant Grass


Now, before delving into the interesting stuff, I have to be honest guys... I have no idea whatsoever whether this sideboard is any good. I mean, I know most of those cards will come in handy sooner or later, but when it comes to how many times you want to run each of those cards and whether they're the best choice to begin with... idk. All I know is that it's not a completely useless sideboard and that some people might wonder why I sideboarded the Grass. (Which I did because I think it could still help out but it's not quite as necessary as it is in classic Chanty.)

Let's talk enchants. I decided to run a single copy of Web of Inertia instead of a 4th Energy Field because the Field doesn't quite protect us from Annihilator or other triggered abilities. Plus, in and by itself it already seems like a neat card against decks which rely on graveyard interaction, and it won't disappear as easily as the Field without a RIP out.

Then there's Ancestral Knowledge. Yes, Guile is only one mana, and green, and has a trigger each upkeep. But I don't really want to focus on having a lot of upkeeps, I want to focus on winning as efficiently as possible. And that's exactly what this card does. It lets you go through roughly the top 19% of your library, rearrange those cards as you see fit and even take out possible bricks. The idea of running Ancestral Knowledge originated from this topic btw, thanks for that.

Ok. And now, introducing: Root Maze. This card may not seem all that great, it may not seem to work within the flow of the rest of the deck, but I think this could be a gamechanger. If we can open and drop this on turn 1 together with a land, a mox (or an exploration, which also seems viable) and a growth/sprawl we'd be set up for 3 available mana on turn 2. Our opponent however won't have any mana available from land turn 1, and, without a nonland mana source, only 1 mana to spend on turn 2. That gives us a relative advantage of 2 land drops, twice the amount we'd normally have. So, as long as we can get ahead of our opponent manawise, Root Maze seems well worth playing. Apart from that, I think it also increases our chances against Belcher and Painter's Stone, seeing as they won't be able to go off the turn they come into play. We'd then also get the chance to remove or destroy one of their combopieces. So the way I see it this silly little card could mean to us as much as a turn 1 timewalk.

I also put some Abolishes in there, I don't know whether they will be better than Seal of Primordials, for example, but since they can be played at instant speed for the cost of a discard, I think it at least warrants playtesting. I do realize there aren't that much plains cards to be discarded though, it's just that... Well, the manabase doesn't need any more plains. It's fairly well balanced now, and I already cut Karakas instead of a plains, so... yeah. Not ideal quite yet, any ideas?

Lastly, the Mox Diamond. Yes, despite running only 17 land I choose to go with the exile-a-land-mox, and the reasoning for this is quite simple actually. I want to play my nonland cards and not exile them for the monocolored manasource Chrome Mox, with only 17 land it seems even sillier running Exploration rather than Mox Diamond, and since I'm under the impression the deck is still at it's most vulnurable early game, I find it imperative to give it every bit of extra edge it can reasonably get. So not running a low-cost form of ramp, like Explorations or Moxes, is not really an option imo.


Guess that's it. Any and all feedback is very welcome and I hope there's at least one good idea to be found in there somewhere. I also want to share a few other ideas I had but couldn't quite work out in a way they could improve the deck. Still pretty rough and rather vague in regard to their purpose, so probaby useless, but perhaps not, so I might as well share.

- Prismatic Omen could be a low-cost way of splashing into the famed and feared 4th colour. I don't really see a lot of use for it in HelmChantRest atm, but that can always change. I run one copy of the Omen in my classic Enchantress list though, comes in handy for the red splash.

- Humility + something... There must be a playable combo with Humility to take out all creatures at once. This also doesn't seem necessary atm, but who knows, it probably can't hurt to be able to combo into a Wrath of God effect.

- Celestial Dawn... I really don't have any use for this card but at the same time can't help but feel this has some sort of potential other than being a more costly way (compared to Prismatic Omen) to solve manacolour problems.


Edit:
So I was thinking, if we can actually slow down our opponents more rapidly and agressively early game dropping a Standstill could be all sorts of wonderous. It synergizes like cuh-razy with Chanty and it either slows down our opponent another turn, or we get even more card advantage. Plus I don't really mind waiting with this deck :P

[Dihensoeur]

Welcome hqql,



Ok. And now, introducing: Root Maze. This card may not seem all that great, it may not seem to work within the flow of the rest of the deck, but I think this could be a gamechanger. If we can open and drop this on turn 1 together with a land, a mox (or an exploration, which also seems viable) and a growth/sprawl we'd be set up for 3 available mana on turn 2. Our opponent however won't have any mana available from land turn 1, and, without a nonland mana source, only 1 mana to spend on turn 2. That gives us a relative advantage of 2 land drops, twice the amount we'd normally have. So, as long as we can get ahead of our opponent manawise, Root Maze seems well worth playing. Apart from that, I think it also increases our chances against Belcher and Painter's Stone, seeing as they won't be able to go off the turn they come into play. We'd then also get the chance to remove or destroy one of their combopieces. So the way I see it this silly little card could mean to us as much as a turn 1 timewalk.

I tested already Root Maze, it seems good but not in reality. Root maze works only if you have it in start hand AND you start (low probability), otherwise it will slow us more than opponents.



I also put some Abolishes in there, I don't know whether they will be better than Seal of Primordials, for example, but since they can be played at instant speed for the cost of a discard, I think it at least warrants playtesting. I do realize there aren't that much plains cards to be discarded though, it's just that... Well, the manabase doesn't need any more plains. It's fairly well balanced now, and I already cut Karakas instead of a plains, so... yeah. Not ideal quite yet, any ideas?

I don't understand why play Abolish or Seal of primordials. Can you explain please?



Lastly, the Mox Diamond. Yes, despite running only 17 land I choose to go with the exile-a-land-mox, and the reasoning for this is quite simple actually. I want to play my nonland cards and not exile them for the monocolored manasource Chrome Mox, with only 17 land it seems even sillier running Exploration rather than Mox Diamond, and since I'm under the impression the deck is still at it's most vulnurable early game, I find it imperative to give it every bit of extra edge it can reasonably get. So not running a low-cost form of ramp, like Explorations or Moxes, is not really an option imo.

To play Mox, you need lot of lands to have at least 2 in hand with a Mox. I suggest to you to compute the probability to have it. It seems very low.
Don't forget that in mid-game, a Mox will be useless. Honestly, I don't like Mox Diamond in your deck, but it's just my opinion :smile:.



- Prismatic Omen could be a low-cost way of splashing into the famed and feared 4th colour. I don't really see a lot of use for it in HelmChantRest atm, but that can always change. I run one copy of the Omen in my classic Enchantress list though, comes in handy for the red splash.

We have to control our mana color with lands/fetchs + Utopia's sprawl. This way, we can have more slot for enchantments of control.
I think we don't have any slot for card like Prismatic.



- Humility + something... There must be a playable combo with Humility to take out all creatures at once. This also doesn't seem necessary atm, but who knows, it probably can't hurt to be able to combo into a Wrath of God effect.

Don't forget that humility works on Argothian. You want something like -1/-1 on all?



- Celestial Dawn... I really don't have any use for this card but at the same time can't help but feel this has some sort of potential other than being a more costly way (compared to Prismatic Omen) to solve manacolour problems.

I don't feel anything about it :tongue:.



So I was thinking, if we can actually slow down our opponents more rapidly and agressively early game dropping a Standstill could be all sorts of wonderous. It synergizes like cuh-razy with Chanty and it either slows down our opponent another turn, or we get even more card advantage. Plus I don't really mind waiting with this deck :P
We can't play Standstill because we are slower than any decks :smile:. And we need to play many enchantments. Standstill risk to hinder us.


Regards
Dihensoeur

[hqql]

Welcome hqql,
Thx ^^


I tested already Root Maze, it seems good but not in reality. Root maze works only if you have it in start hand AND you start (low probability), otherwise it will slow us more than opponents.
Well, actually... The way I figure it's most potent in your opening hand, if you start and with a mana advantage of 2. This however doesn't mean it's useless otherwise, you could not start and play it on turn 2, with a mana advantage of 2 this would still have a more negative effect on our opponent than it would on us. So, yeah, it's probably never going to be a gamewinner but I thought it would speed our deck up, relative to our opponent's, for the first few turns (which is where we can use all the boost we can get). Also, as long as we have that mana advantage the worst it'll be is a cantrip for 1 which fuels the sanctum.


I don't understand why play Abolish or Seal of primordials. Can you explain please?
I see most Enchantress builds playing at least some kind of removal (like Seal), which I think could be of help against a lot of decks depending on your local meta. So that's why removal.


To play Mox, you need lot of lands to have at least 2 in hand with a Mox. I suggest to you to compute the probability to have it. It seems very low.
Don't forget that in mid-game, a Mox will be useless. Honestly, I don't like Mox Diamond in your deck, but it's just my opinion :smile:.
I agree with you. The problem is that I want to have something in that slot that can give us an extra mana on turn 1, and Diamond seemed a whole lot better than Chrome (which I actually playtested in classical Enchantress and is just horrible imo). So, myeah, perhaps Exploration is a better option after all. Or do you disagree with using that slot for extra acceleration altogether?

Those other cards were discarded ideas anyway :)

Except for Standstill, but I see how that's not a great idea now. Thanks for the elaborate post btw, this really helps me a lot!

[Dihensoeur]

Another way that I'm thinking is to play x4 Leyline of the void MD and x3,x4 Web of Inertia MD, to go as fast as possible to the kill Helm.

- Rest in Peace + LL:b: give us 8 cards for combo with Helm and LL:b: can't be counter or destroy by Abrupt Decay.
- The meta often use graveyard so have LL:b: MD give us good start point VS lot of decks.
- 8 grave-hate cards allow us to play Web of inertia as an additional protection. Moreover, it can be very good VS Sneak/Show.

Kill T2 is now possible:

T1: Starting with LL:b:, play forest + enchant land
T2: play Serra's Sanctum + Wild Growth on Serra (one mana left)
tap Serra to get 4 manas (3 from enchantments + one extra mana from wild growth) to put Helm.
Then, with the mana left, kill the opponent :cool:.

Otherwise, a LL:b:/RiP in the battlefield will provoke some stress to the opponent because at each turn we can put a helm.
I will test it with playing 4 Helm because
- Helm can be used alone
- To have more chance to have it
- To try to play it and to consume all counterspells.

[Hof]

Yes, but the Leyline is completely dead if you don't have it in your opening hand. Even if you can somehow cast it later, there will be cards in the yard by then, so you are going to need RiP anyway. Any thoughts on that?

[Freggle]

Yes, but the Leyline is completely dead if you don't have it in your opening hand. Even if you can somehow cast it later, there will be cards in the yard by then, so you are going to need RiP anyway. Any thoughts on that?

Having played this list:

List

I can say trying not to loose the game is not the way to go. vs. Sneak and show we care very little about the an early Show and Tell. There are (2) main Karakas and everything besides Sneak Attack can be bounced.

There are many games where I will drop Helm in off an early show and win on untap. I'm finding that playing cards that let us combo faster is better than playing cards that allow us to loose slower. However that shouldn't be breaking news.

Web of Inertia should not be needed. The decks that the list above that I'm having difficulty beating are sleigh style builds with Qasali Pridemage. Fast decks with burn reach.

You would want to bring in Seal of Primordium against SnS so you can respond nab a Sneak Attack. This makes Karakas that much stronger.

Seal of Primordium also gives this deck so much game against a lot of other randoms.

A low curve, and draw seems to be the most resilient, and feisty build I've tested.

Strangely I do not miss Elephant Grass. Vs. the Sleigh builds it does not do enough fast enough, and vs. all other slower aggros the combo allows us to just win or Solitary Confinement lock them out before loosing. The draw also has been doing the trick vs. both discard and counter spells.

Discard, control, and midrange I can beat ...it's burn or sleigh lists that I can not beat right now.

[bkemke]

Freggle,

Have you considered Blind Obedience for some additional inevitability.

[Dihensoeur]

Yes, but the Leyline is completely dead if you don't have it in your opening hand. Even if you can somehow cast it later, there will be cards in the yard by then, so you are going to need RiP anyway. Any thoughts on that?

Leyline is completely dead if you don't have it in your opening hand: Yes, but the goal is to kill with Helm as soon as possible (and the kill LL:b: + Helm works even the opponent have cards in his graveyard).
I want to test this way for the moment. I will report if I failed :laugh:.



There are (2) main Karakas and everything besides Sneak Attack can be bounced.

Sorry but Karakas isn't very efficient VS Sneak Attack.
If you bounce Emrakul before he choose it to attack, he can pay an additional :r: to put it again and attack with it.
If you bounce Emrakul after he choose it to attack, so you have to sac 6 permanents from annihilator effect.

Play mass grave-hate like LL:b: and RiP allow me to be more efficient VS SnS.dec with Web of inertia and the threat to put a Helm with Show&Tell (and so more efficient VS all decks that need graveyard (rea,dredge, BUG....)).

@Freggle,
If Quasali is a problem, you maybe add x2,x3 Pithing Needle MD in your deck. You will have always some targets for pithing needle (planeswalker, fetch, Deathrite shaman, Vial...).

[Freggle]

Sorry but Karakas isn't very efficient VS Sneak Attack.
If you bounce Emrakul before he choose it to attack, he can pay an additional :r: to put it again and attack with it.
If you bounce Emrakul after he choose it to attack, so you have to sac 6 permanents from annihilator effect.

Yeah, your right. I knew that. The point I was trying to make was we can handle everything they throw at us with Karakas but we can not beat Sneak Attack with it (almost all of the time.)

...however what I'm finding is we can normally race Sneak Attack. If they use Show and Tell with all the draw cards i'm running I can usually find Karakas or Helm of Obedience and Graveyard hate card.

Not all the time of course, but it is favorable. I even beat a T1 SNT - >Emrakul on the draw because of Karakas. I beat a T2 SNT -> Emrakul because I had already lanaded a Wild Growth on a forest T1 and dropped in Helm off of the SnT. Untapped played white source dropped RiP with one floating (no force of will and they were tapped out) and activated Helm.

Most of the time the real problem for us is Sneak Attack, but I usually beat them before they go that route.



@Freggle,
If Quasali is a problem, you maybe add x2,x3 Pithing Needle MD in your deck. You will have always some targets for pithing needle (planeswalker, fetch, Deathrite shaman, Vial...).

Yeah, I love the Pithing Needle tech, but I'm looking for alternative answers to give the deck more synergy. aka keeping a Turn 2 Solitary Confinement stable. I think the answer is Elephant Grass in the board, but I'll keep testing.

Another (old school) tech that I may test is Wall of Blossoms in a few or all of the Ground Seal slots. This card can slow down Nacatyls, Tarmogoyfs, Goblin Guides, Bob's, Bloodraids while still drawing. It also give an out to a Green sun's drawn under Confinement when you need the draw.

It should be mentioned though that Pithining Needle will shut off Sneak Attack and Top. ...both of which can be problematic.



Freggle,

Have you considered Blind Obedience for some additional inevitability.

I have considered it, but I don't think it does enough. The best thing it does is tap down artifact mana from storm decks and Candelabra from High Tide, but again I don't think it's good enough. The more I play this deck I'm not sure it needs anything other then Helm / Rip. Strangely the only two cards that this deck auto rolls over to is True Believer & Labratory Maniac. There is no way to win with that and our own Rest in Peace on the battle field. Seal of Primordium hits all the other player shroud cards.

Everything else there would need to be a string of the right answers at the right time to totally shut this deck down. Like countering a helm and / or rest in peace and using a surgical extraction on it prior to resolving another rest in peace. Like dredge mentalities I prefer to synergize my whole deck to win in the right scenario more soundly than to fight the off the cuff "can happen scenarios."

In the end I like Blind Obedience, but it's not making the cut. Landing that and hoping I hit a string of 20 spells that I can extort just doesn't seem to be the best.

This deck would be far better off just bringing in a Progenitus and Green Sun's Zenith'ing for it as an alt. Progenitus's shuffle effect is a replacement effect so you choose to shuffle it in the deck if RiP is out. You can get it out of your hand by discarding it to Solitary Confinement or having more than 7 cards. ...but I don't think it's needed.

At best Progenitus would be in the board.

[hqql]

Yeah, I love the Pithing Needle tech, but I'm looking for alternative answers to give the deck more synergy. aka keeping a Turn 2 Solitary Confinement stable. I think the answer is Elephant Grass in the board, but I'll keep testing.

How about Exploration? With Exploration you could, ideally, ramp all the way up to 5 available mana on turn 2, with which you can play both Argothian and Confinement, thus stabilizing your Confinement right from the start. I realise you need a perfect hand AND top card for this play to even be possible, but you would be able to ramp up to 4 available mana on turn 2 fairly easily if you had Exploration (+2 lands & Wild Growth or Utopia Sprawl) in your opening hand. That one extra mana on turn 2 could be an extra draw (Abundant Growth), it could be another extra mana available on turn 3 (Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl), it could be an earlier deckfilter (Mirri's Guile/Enlightened Tutor) and 4 mana could also be RIP+Energy Field, essentially circumventing the need to stabilize a Confinement. On top of that, if you're running fetches for deckfiltering you could have filtered up to 8 lands from your deck already on turn 2 if you made every land drop with fetch. Sure, that won't happen a lot, but whether you drop your first fetch as an extra land on turn 4 or you've played 3 already on turn 2, it will always be of help.

So, not really a straight up solution for anything but rather something that could help us play the solutions we already have early more consistently and/or earlier altogether. In my opinion Exploration is a way better choice than Elephant Grass, if you can play a second land the turn you play Exploration it's net cost is 0, it speeds up our early game (where Elephant Grass could even slow us down) and it finally gives you guys a good excuse for playing 19 or 20 lands (I'm playtesting 16 atm and have yet to find myself manascrewed).

Thoughts?

[Dihensoeur]

How about Exploration? With Exploration you could, ideally, ramp all the way up to 5 available mana on turn 2, with which you can play both Argothian and Confinement, thus stabilizing your Confinement right from the start. I realise you need a perfect hand AND top card for this play to even be possible, but you would be able to ramp up to 4 available mana on turn 2 fairly easily if you had Exploration (+2 lands & Wild Growth or Utopia Sprawl) in your opening hand. That one extra mana on turn 2 could be an extra draw (Abundant Growth), it could be another extra mana available on turn 3 (Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl), it could be an earlier deckfilter (Mirri's Guile/Enlightened Tutor) and 4 mana could also be RIP+Energy Field, essentially circumventing the need to stabilize a Confinement. On top of that, if you're running fetches for deckfiltering you could have filtered up to 8 lands from your deck already on turn 2 if you made every land drop with fetch. Sure, that won't happen a lot, but whether you drop your first fetch as an extra land on turn 4 or you've played 3 already on turn 2, it will always be of help.

So, not really a straight up solution for anything but rather something that could help us play the solutions we already have early more consistently and/or earlier altogether. In my opinion Exploration is a way better choice than Elephant Grass, if you can play a second land the turn you play Exploration it's net cost is 0, it speeds up our early game (where Elephant Grass could even slow us down) and it finally gives you guys a good excuse for playing 19 or 20 lands (I'm playtesting 16 atm and have yet to find myself manascrewed).

Thoughts?

Exploration is useful if we have many lands (mainly in start hand), so we need to have many lands in deck (around 23) and so decrease chance to draw enchantments with Argothian/presence. That's why I don't suggest to play it (and this card is very expensive >_<).

I don't find Elephant grass useful because it slow us and opponent needs only one creature to attack us (Delver 3 damages, Tarmo 4, Maverick with exalted, Lackey,...).

[Freggle]

I had some time to work on this deck again today. I decided to do the research to understand why I feel the draw enchantment version is the way to go. I ran some numbers.

I decided to figure out the probability of combo based off of cards drawn. I am not a mathematician. I’m just a curious enchantress player. Some of this data may be incorrect. I’m willing to share my spreadsheet with anyone who is willing to help.

Using the HYPGEOM.DIST function in Excel I have built charts that show the probability of drawing a card based off of the quantity in the deck.

I then figured out the intersection of probabilities of drawing both 1 of each of the combo Rest in Peace | Helm of Obedience)seen below.
Probability to combo assembled in cards drawn / Seen


Cards drawn 1 RIP | 1 Helm
1 0.0000%
2 1.2774%
3 2.7532%
4 4.6878%
5 7.0141%
6 9.6708%
7 12.6014%
8 15.7546%
9 19.0836%
10 22.546%
11 26.1037%
12 29.7219%
13 33.3700%
14 37.0203%
15 40.6485%
16 44.2331%
17 47.7554%
18 51.1991%
19 54.5504%
20 57.7976%
21 60.9308%
22 63.9421%
23 66.8253%
24 69.5757%
25 72.1899%
26 74.6658%
27 77.0025%
28 79.2001%
29 81.2594%
30 83.1824%
31 84.9715%
32 86.6298%
33 88.1610%
34 89.5692%
35 90.8590%
36 92.0351%
37 93.1027%
38 94.0671%
39 94.9337%
40 95.7081%
41 96.3960%
42 97.0029%
43 97.5345%
44 97.9964%
45 98.3942%
46 98.7332%
47 99.0188%
48 99.2562%
49 99.4505%
50 99.6064%
51 99.7288%
52 99.8220%
53 99.8906%
54 99.9385%
55 99.9698%
56 99.9881%
57 99.9971%
58 100.0000%
59 100.0000%
60 100.0000%

I did the same for the combo of Solitary Confinement + Enchantress Effect below.
Probability to combo assembled in cards drawn / Seen
Cards drawn 1 ench | 1 Conf
1 0.0000%
2 4.0011%
3 8.1152%
4 13.0238%
5 18.3980%
6 23.9903%
7 29.6177%
8 35.1483%
9 40.4901%
10 45.5820%
11 50.3864%
12 54.8835%
13 59.0666%
14 62.9380%
15 66.5069%
16 69.7865%
17 72.7927%
18 75.5427%
19 78.0542%
20 80.3449%
21 82.4317%
22 84.3305%
23 86.0566%
24 87.6238%
25 89.0451%
26 90.3322%
27 91.4960%
28 92.5464%
29 93.4924%
30 94.3424%
31 95.1041%
32 95.7845%
33 96.3902%
34 96.9274%
35 97.4016%
36 97.8184%
37 98.1826%
38 98.4991%
39 98.7722%
40 99.0062%
41 99.2050%
42 99.3724%
43 99.5119%
44 99.6268%
45 99.7201%
46 99.7947%
47 99.8534%
48 99.8985%
49 99.9323%
50 99.9569%
51 99.9742%
52 99.9856%
53 99.9928%
54 99.9969%
55 99.9990%
56 99.9998%
57 100.0000%
58 100.0000%
59 100.0000%
60 100.0000%

Since these two combos are independent I took it one step further and calculated the probability of assembling either of these combos. Seen below:
Probability to combo assembled in cards drawn / Seen
Cards drawn Combo 1 or Combo 2
1 0.0000%
2 5.2274%
3 10.6450%
4 17.1010%
5 24.1217%
6 31.3411%
7 38.4869%
8 45.3654%
9 51.8467%
10 57.8511%
11 63.3374%
12 68.2930%
13 72.7261%
14 76.6585%
15 80.1213%
16 83.1509%
17 85.7856%
18 88.0646%
19 90.0257%
20 91.7051%
21 93.1362%
22 94.3499%
23 95.3743%
24 96.2346%
25 96.9534%
26 97.5507%
27 98.0443%
28 98.4497%
29 98.7804%
30 99.0485%
31 99.2642%
32 99.4364%
33 99.5726%
34 99.6795%
35 99.7625%
36 99.8262%
37 99.8746%
38 99.9110%
39 99.9378%
40 99.9573%
41 99.9713%
42 99.9812%
43 99.9880%
44 99.9925%
45 99.9955%
46 99.9974%
47 99.9986%
48 99.9992%
49 99.9996%
50 99.9998%
51 99.9999%
52 100.0000%
53 100.0000%
54 100.0000%
55 100.0000%
56 100.0000%
57 100.0000%
58 100.0000%
59 100.0000%
60 100.0000%

The last part is unfinished I goldfished the deck 3 games to determine the average number of cards seen when unabated.
I got this chart:

Turn | Average Cards drawn / Seen (Guile) Cumulative
1 | 7
2 | 9.6
3 | 12.3
4 | 16
5 | 21
6 | 26




Now I know that data set is inconclusive, but I wanted to share it as an example. I will work on this more when I have more time.

With this data we can assume the following:
If unabated this deck wins about turn 6
At this turn the deck has a little over 93% chance to draw into either Confinement / Enchantress or RiP / Helm
The next step, when I have the chance will be to manipulate the card numbers to see if I can get better union numbers aka speed it up.

[SovietOlga]

It's nice to see others are still tinkering with this combo.

Having played many versions of this deck I can fairly safely say that this is not like the GWx lists. Our primary goal is not to silver bullet our opponent until we can get absurd amounts of mana and finish them off with a bunch of angles or Words of War. Our "silver bullet" is to just win. All of our card choices should look to forward that goal.

With the rise of BG lists running Abrupt Decay Energy Field did loose a lot of potency. So much so that I would actually table them for the time being.

Since most of those lists also sporting discard it only makes sense that we focus our energy on card draw and make every card count.

This gives rise to cards Abundant Growth and Ground Seal, and the sorting of Mirri's Guile. These will allow us to fight through tough openers where we face off against a ton of discard.

This also gives us some tools to fight through some board sweepers.

Here is a list I have been testing:

Creatures (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress

Enchantments (32)
4 Abundant Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Ground Seal
4 Rest in Peace
4 Solitary Confinement

Artifacts (3)
3 Helm of Obedience

Lands (19)
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
15 Forest

Sideboard (15)
3 Seal of Primordium
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
4 City of Solitude

This list is very stable / resilient. The card draw allows us to fight through a lot of disruption while dig for our combo. It also makes an early Solitary Confinement stable. I'm not sure where, but the 75 should find room for 3-4 Karmic Justice for sweepers.

This list is not looking to protect any combo, but to win attrition wars with speed and draw. Sice we want to blow away the yard anyhow Leyline of the Void[cards] can come in vs. BG decks to nullify 1/2 of [cards]Cabal Therapy & other trix those decks have as well is a pretty good hoser of most combo.

It's also one of our biggest fears to get our Helm of Obedience's extracted so it's better just to make sure they get exiled in those MU's.

So this is where I'm at. Different approach, but still quite potent.

I have been following this thread for quite a while, and I'm very glad it got some more attention. I have been building this deck for a while. I couldn't agree more with the abrupt decay problem, it's too bad because I just forked out some hard cash for a playset of Energy Fields. Besides the point, your new build seems like it's missing 2 card slots? Also, I noticed there are no fetchlands, is this specifically to protect yourself from Delver and their stifles? I have been testing and it seems that I have been running into too many forests, not sure cutting out the fetches is the best idea just to avoid one deck's strategy?

Also, is 3 helms necessary? I feel like I run into them far quicker than I have use for them.

Your input would be awesome,

Soviet

[Freggle]

I have been following this thread for quite a while, and I'm very glad it got some more attention. I have been building this deck for a while. I couldn't agree more with the abrupt decay problem, it's too bad because I just forked out some hard cash for a playset of Energy Fields. Besides the point, your new build seems like it's missing 2 card slots? Also, I noticed there are no fetchlands, is this specifically to protect yourself from Delver and their stifles? I have been testing and it seems that I have been running into too many forests, not sure cutting out the fetches is the best idea just to avoid one deck's strategy?

Also, is 3 helms necessary? I feel like I run into them far quicker than I have use for them.

Your input would be awesome,

Soviet

Below is the list I have been running:

4 Abundant Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Ground Seal
4 Rest in Peace
4 Solitary Confinement
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
14 Forest

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Sylvan Library
3 Elephant Grass

I did not run fetches for a few reasons.

-You do not need the color fixing
-I did want to avoid Stifle to get around taxing counter magic faster
-I wanted to avoid all incidental damage
-I wanted to weaken the affect of Blood Moon on deck.

In other words since we could afford to I wanted to make the mana as stable as possible since that is one of the best ways to attack Enchantress.

There have been more than a hand-full of games that I have won at 1 life, therefore the incidental damage does matter. The question I have not answered however is is this better than fetching to see a fresh 3 with Mirri's Guile?

I think the most correct list will have some number of fetches (no more than 4) to just freshen a stale Guile in a pinch.


As for the (3) Helm. It is currently the only way the deck wins. Having bumped the Serra's Sanctum to 3 gives this deck a lot more gas, and makes it almost unfair. You should be able to combo off around turns 4-6 with multiple RiP's and multiple Helm's so long as you land an enchantress early.

You can run less than 3 but it may make the deck slower. If you do I would replace it with another win condition Likely Sigil of the Empty Throne since it too can be cast solely off a large tap of Serra's Sanctum. Doing this would hedge against cards like Surgical Extraction.

Hopefully that helps. You may also want to take a look at this list here:

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/41123

I personally have not played it, but it looks like a pile of fun. It got 1st out of 42 back in December. What is your current list?

[renna]

Hello guys this is my last list. I scored several top4 and at the last tournament i have won 3 match with a 2-0 in a row and lost by "pernicious deck style" 0-2.


4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Plains
8 Forest
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Temple Garden
2 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Worship
1 City of Solitude
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Karakas
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Aura of Silence
SB: 2 Autumn's Veil
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Rest In Peace
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity

I think I'll run 1/2 Karmic Justice and maybe another Enlightened Tutor to avoid revoker/needle on sterling grove and blocking mass-removal effect like pernicious or serenity with Karmic in play (protected by sterling grove)

[Just me]

Finally got some helms. These cards are hard to get here...

I have a traditional list with 4 RiP an 1 Helm and 1 E. Tutor. It combo's out remarkably fast and it retains the control-aspect I see missing here more and more (especially without Energy Field, tbut the manabase is very stable right now with all these here forests). I really dig the maindeck hate and the fast clock.

Some questions (mainly at Freggle I guess, but everyone can chime in obv.);
1) Is the lack of Elephant Grass and Sphere of Safety no problem against 'fair' aggro like Maverick, Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo? Or just a calculated risk due to metagame?
2) No Sterling Grove? In response to Helm, they bounce, kill, whatevers the RiP...? Of course you might dig to another, but some protection in combo decks often goes a along way.
3) I dig the no-fetch experiment, but with 4 Guile I really would run at least 4, maybe even 6 to max their usefulness. It might hurt a little, but that doesn't matter if it speeds you up a turn.

[Dihensoeur]

Hi all,
I'm actually testing Naya Enchantress (GWR):

Lands (20):

1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
8 Forest

Kills (4):

3 Helm of Obedience
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Draw (11):

4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Mirri's Guile
(because allow to control the draw)
4 Enchantress's Presence


Control (19):

2 Pithing Needle
1 Words of War
(can be a kill but not the goal for me)
2 Blood Moon
3 Elephant Grass
4 Seal of Fire
4 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement


Others (6):

2 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl


Sideboad:

1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blind Obedience
1 Nevermore
1 Humility
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rule of Law
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle


Explanation:
- Blood Moon: This card is actually a win card vs Jund/BUG/TT/Esper...and more powerful than Back to basics
- Seal of fire: This card is more powerful than you think. If you check the toughness all powerful creatures in legacy (Dark confidant, Deathrite shaman, Thalia, Delver, Vendilion, Stoneforge...), you will see all cards that Seal of fire can destroy.
Some examples:
T1 Lackey Goblin, T1 Seal of fire
T1 Deathrite Shama, T1 Seal of fire => no Liliana T2
TX Stoneforge go take Batterskull, next turn Seal of fire => no batterskull in the battlefield
TX Dark confidant => Seal of fire => cut the CA of the opponent.
...
- Words of war: I'm using it to control the board and not for kill.

I use the naya strategy because I find that we can't stay hidden behind a protection:
- Lot of creatures/Planeswalkers offer to the opponent too advantages.
- At the least destroy card (like Abrupt Decay :) ), our protection is out and we suffer all opponent's creatures.

Sideboard explanation:
- Pyroblast / Red elemental blast: It's not an enchantment yes, but this is really a strong card. It allows us to put Helm combo in security and/or destroy any dangerous Jace.

A short report from a tournament (26players):
1-2 Slivers deck
Mana death, then he mana death, then mana death...a very bad luck round...And not interesting

2-1 UWR Miracle
I win with Helm T4.
I lost the second by Jace.
Then I win with many Helm that he can't manage all.

0-2 UWR Miracle Helm
I put Rest in peace and he topdeck it's only Helm T5 and kill me...a lucky opponent!
I lost the second by Elspeth + counterspell

2-0 Affinity : Solitary => win, Solitary => win.


@Just me: my opinion:


1) Is the lack of Elephant Grass and Sphere of Safety no problem against 'fair' aggro like Maverick, Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo? Or just a calculated risk due to metagame?

Without Energy Field, Elephant Grass is obv for aggro. But I want to know too the opinion of Freggle about it.



2) No Sterling Grove? In response to Helm, they bounce, kill, whatevers the RiP...? Of course you might dig to another, but some protection in combo decks often goes a along way.

I go back to Sterling Grove to have a little protection for the combo or tutor a destroyed RiP or others depending the situation, I see that all opponents try to manage RiP as far as possible.



3) I dig the no-fetch experiment, but with 4 Guile I really would run at least 4, maybe even 6 to max their usefulness. It might hurt a little, but that doesn't matter if it speeds you up a turn.
Mirri's Guile is very powerful, you prefer very often play T1 Guile than any other card like wild growth. Fetchs are good to shuffle library when top3 is very bad.

Regards,
Dihensoeur

[Freggle]

All the questions below are heavily interconnected.


Some questions (mainly at Freggle I guess, but everyone can chime in obv.);
1) Is the lack of Elephant Grass and Sphere of Safety no problem against 'fair' aggro like Maverick, Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo? Or just a calculated risk due to metagame?
To say that it is "no problem" would be a severe overstatement. (Fast) Zoo is a deck I keep sleeved and test against quite a bit. The G1 MU is slightly favorable. Sometimes you have to tilt your deck in unconventional ways (like blocking with Argothian) but it's generally fine. I have played against Maverick a few time on Coctrice, and have won each time. They will bring in Ethersworn, but it's not quite enough because of the draw triggers built in on Abundant Growth and Ground Seal, and 3 MD Serra's Sanctum / 2 Karakas make Thalia & Teeg almost moot. This may not be a large enough sample size to call it favorable though. It might just be the surprise factor.

When they loose fast G1 they tend to tilt into full beatdown mode over hatebears when the should play the match slower and be the control. That why I question the data.

It is a hedge against the meta though. I want to set-up the main to beat the broader meta, and board into the E grass Games 2-3 if they do good work there. I do not bring them in vs. Maverick because I feel the mana spent on the CU is not a good trade off. Your better off just going all in on Helming them as fast as possible as their hate bears can lock things down quick. Serra's Sanctum seems to be the trump card there because they will calculate if you can helm them next turn with the mana on board, and tap out to drop an Elpeth or something to maximize damage, but then you drop Sanctum and deck them as it is an all white combo.

Sphere of Saftey - I wouldn't play it in this meta. We can't replenish it, and is a liability in hand if you face off against tempo decks. I would main Sigil of the Empty Throne light years ahead of Sphere right now. I would do that because it can kill, and doesn't have to have enchantments in play prior to casting to be good. Sigil tokens can be on D and be equally if not more effective till you get rolling and take over the game.


2) No Sterling Grove? In response to Helm, they bounce, kill, whatevers the RiP...? Of course you might dig to another, but some protection in combo decks often goes a along way.
What you say is very true, but often (2) RIP does the same thing (1) RIP and (1) Grove. If grove were all green or all white they would be main, but the GW can stall a rolling turn. The turn I actually combo I usually have absurd amounts of mana (Sanctum) and drop multiple RIP's before helm. That seems to do the trick for the most part.

I have put this deck down for a bit to test other pet decks, but the last version re-incorperated some Groves and it wasn't too detrimental to the decks progression.



3) I dig the no-fetch experiment, but with 4 Guile I really would run at least 4, maybe even 6 to max their usefulness. It might hurt a little, but that doesn't matter if it speeds you up a turn. Well this is where then you might want the Elephant Grass main again to pull that off. It's not uncommon for me to pull of a Zoo win with 1 life.

With a single enchantress effect in play Abundant Growth does a good job of clearing the top (3.) Guile -> put Abundant on top. Play abundant draw (2). Then the Top two are fresh, but as I say earlier (4) or so fetches would likely be the most correct. They would be useful in the control MU when you can not seem to stick an enchantress effect though. It could potentially give us the ability to keep presenting a must counter spell to eventually get rolling.

@Dihensoeur - I'd love to hear how this deck progresses, and it sounds like you want Choke in your meta.

[Just me]

Thanks for the reply and input. If there's a Legacy side-event, I hope to play the deck at the the GP Utrecht (depending on how the GP itself goes).

I think I'll take out 1 of 2 Sphere's and add in Sigil or a faster card, I'll see.

[Freggle]

After playing on Magic Online for the last couple days I think I need to re-tool my combo package.

Here is the current list:

Creatures (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress

Enchantments (31)
3 Abundant Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Ground Seal
4 Rest in Peace
4 Solitary Confinement
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sorcery (3)
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts (3)
3 Helm of Obedience

Lands (19)
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
14 Forest

Sideboard (15)
3 Elephant Grass
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Sterling Grove

It seems to be even to slightly favorable against control. Slightly favorable to aggro. Poor to combo. ...and most of MTGO is combo.

I can usually go 1-2 so it's not blow outs, but I need that little edge.

Since this deck is open to all 5 colors for a splash (4 Utopia Sprawl & 3 Abundant Growth) I would consider off-color choices if they just nail combo, but would prefer to stay on-color if possible. What are the best cards for combo that enchantress can run? I picked up some Aura of Silence, Seal of Primordium & Suppression Field to test, but am I missing something obvious?

[SovietOlga]

@Freggle - what are the ground seals useful against? It doesn't seem to stop much. It doesn't stop dredge, flashback or grim lavamancers. I only see it hurting reanimation?

[Freggle]

@Freggle - what are the ground seals useful against? It doesn't seem to stop much. It doesn't stop dredge, flashback or grim lavamancers. I only see it hurting reanimation?

It's good against:

Deathrite Shaman
Grim Lavamancer
Snapcaster Mage
Academy Ruins
opponnets Surgical Extraction / Extirpate


...and overall being a cantripping enchantment. ...but it is fairly commonly sided out.

[SovietOlga]

It's good against:

Deathrite Shaman
Grim Lavamancer
Snapcaster Mage
Academy Ruins
opponnets Surgical Extraction / Extirpate


...and overall being a cantripping enchantment. ...but it is fairly commonly sided out.
It actually doesn't stop a grim lavamancer. He doesn't target to activate. I was playing them before. But I never found them very useful other than the can trip. I have been testing carpet of flowers as a replacement. As you see top 8 decks in the format being mostly blue I feel it will help shoot out mana.

[Dihensoeur]

It seems to be even to slightly favorable against control. Slightly favorable to aggro. Poor to combo. ...and most of MTGO is combo.

I can usually go 1-2 so it's not blow outs, but I need that little edge.

Since this deck is open to all 5 colors for a splash (4 Utopia Sprawl & 3 Abundant Growth) I would consider off-color choices if they just nail combo, but would prefer to stay on-color if possible. What are the best cards for combo that enchantress can run? I picked up some Aura of Silence, Seal of Primordium & Suppression Field to test, but am I missing something obvious?

Which combo?
You can run for Blind obedience, it's a good card for Elves and Sneak Attack.
But, there is no enchantment really powerful vs combo.
Personaly for storm, I use Canonist with tutor to have it T2, Rule of law, Nevermore (my strategy is to put canonist T2 then Rule of law because canonist will be managed by opponent) and Red elemental blast (to counter blue removal spell).
But Storm use discard, maybe the most is to have Leyline of sanctify and Mindbreak trap in start hand but the chance to have it....(and need 8 slots in side!).

For Elves, I use Canonist with tutor, Rule of law, Blind obedience and Humility.
With Blind obedience in the battlefield, Elves can't combo. (Publicity for my version) With Naya version, you can kill elves with Seal of fire ^^.

For Sneak Show, I use Red elemental blast, Pithing Needle, Blind obedience, Nevermore Oblivion Ring and Humility.
Pithing Needle + Blind Obedience to manage Sneak Attack and the others for Show and Tell. But you can put T2 Rest in peace, then Helm under Show&Tell = Win. Or put Helm under Show&Tell and try to get an Emrakul ^^.

[nedleeds]

I can't think of 2 better sideboard cards against Enchantress than Ethersworn Canonist and Rule of Law. Maybe Presence of the Master?

[Just me]

@Freggle
If the online meta is mainly combo, I seriously would pre-board a little with 4x Leyline maindeck. It's also useful against discard and most combo's like to target (with Belcher, Storm variants) so it's decent. Combo which aims at combat (dredge, other part of Belcher/Storm with empty the Warrens) is usually handled good enough by Elephant Grass to buy time into teh lock (or combo-blowout of RIP-Helm).

Sphere of Safety is also real good against anyhting attacking. If they don't have the mana (and they normally don't, since the deck is designed to cheat on mana), it's strong against Sneak Attack and Reanimator.

It is a little dangerous if you go overboard with the preboard on account of the average rising mana-cost but with 1 more Sanctuum (you still run 3?) and the Abundant Growth it could very well work.

[Freggle]

It actually doesn't stop a grim lavamancer. He doesn't target to activate. I was playing them before. But I never found them very useful other than the can trip. I have been testing carpet of flowers as a replacement. As you see top 8 decks in the format being mostly blue I feel it will help shoot out mana.
They can be replaced, but I would do it with another disruptive hate enchantment other than Carpet of Flowers.

I have played against a number of control and tempo decks and have a good win percentage. Control appears to be favorable as is.


Which combo?

There is a lot of Tin Fins, ANT / TES (can't tell the difference) and Show and tell.


You can run for Blind Obedience

I was actually thinking about it last night. After almost playing Stony Silence (bad with Helm) I was still looking for something different. I have run Suppression Field but it is not enough. I was still killed by a Grizzy doing stupid stuff after drawing cards and abusing Dark Ritual.

Blind Obedience does kill Sneak Attack AND storms artifact mana. It will also stop the Emrakul attack kill in TinFins. This seems like it needs to be tested.

Coupled with the main Rest in Peace cutting off Storms Past in Flames and a possible Leyline T0 that may be enough to lock them down or combo off. This warrants testing.

It also slows hasty guys. I was beat in a heartbreaker with the fastest Zoo I have seen yet. It would consistently swing for 7 T2 (Nacatyl, New GR dude that gives GR, and Lightning Mauler paired with GR dude)

I won G1 off of Confinement, but lost 2, and 3 (with E. grass in now) to faster hands, and amazing top deck bolt after I dug 30+ deep and wiffing on finding the Confinement.


@Freggle
If the online meta is mainly combo, I seriously would pre-board a little with 4x Leyline maindeck.

I have thought about this but I don't like how an early top decked Leyline can clog our engine. I still do play 3 Serra's Sanctum as that card makes this deck absurd.

I'll post my list tonight, but it's still the same -1 Ground Seal +1 Seal of Primorduim main. This is to give us outs to some random hate, and possibly beat a G1 Counterbalance. ...plus it's just a good on-color card.

[Freggle]

I'll post my list tonight

This is what I ran in the daily tonight to a 2-2 record.

Enchantments (31)
4 Abundant Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Ground Seal
1 Seal Of Primordium
4 Rest in Peace
4 Solitary Confinement
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sorcery (3)
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts (3)
3 Helm of Obedience

Lands (19)
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
14 Forest


Sideboard (15)
3 Elephant Grass
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Blind Obedience

Round 1: Burn 2-0 Helm Win & Confinement (opponent scoop)

Round 2: Esper Balde - 0-2 I keep shaky hands and get exposed by Thoughtseize both games T1. I make a run for it but my deck does not cooperate. G2 I saw a LOT of lands even with guile. I only 1 Enchantress Effect. Very weird.

Round 3: Bug - 2-1 - Game 1 win with Helm Kill, Game 2 loose to discard and good pressure, game 3 my opponent lags and time runs out. I have multiple hlms and solitary in hand.

Round 4: Tin Fins - Game 1 Loss T2, Game 2 Loss T2 through Blind Obedience Gets Grzzy draws 14 casts enough stuff to chain Blind I sac a land to return Grizzy he casts artifact mana and Tedrils for exactzies.

Blind Obedience did not live to my dreams. I wonder if Root Maze would perform any better? ...we don't run fetches. Not sure.

[Dihensoeur]

Blind Obedience did not live to my dreams. I wonder if Root Maze would perform any better? ...we don't run fetches. Not sure.

Thx for your report.
Blind Obedience is not a card that beats all combo deck (there is no enchantment for this). It's just a weapon that works on many combo deck. We need to put lot of weapons to overpass opponent's stuff like chain.
A single card is not enough (by example Leyline is completely not enough alone).
You should consider pithing needle, there is always targets to name (Grizzy, planeswalker, equipment, fetch, wasteland...).
Root Maze needs:
- to have it in start hand (so x4)
- to start the game (so only after be beaten and so only for g2)
- to put it in the battlefield T1 (instead of any guile of enchanted land)
otherwise it's not good. So I don't advice to use it.




G2 I saw a LOT of lands even with guile.
Like most players, when they see a lot of lands, they fetch to shuffle. Maybe you need to play some fetchs (but you have GSZ to shuffle too).

[renna]

Hello guys, yesterday i finished 2nd in a small tournament (9 players). This is the list:


4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Plains
8 Forest
2 Temple Garden
2 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Worship
1 Karakas
1 City of Solitude
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 Windswept Heath
SB: 2 Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Autumn's Veil



Game 1
I have got the "bye" because of the 9 players
2-0

Game 2 against "a sort of chepalid maniac combo"
Nothing to do, both game he played the 2-pieces-combo milling his deck and winning with maniac+sensei (the combo involved more pieces before the maniac of course)
0-2

Game 3 BW Stoneblade (i think)
Sorry but i dont remember the game, i have won anyway (dont remember if 2-0 or 2-1 too, really sorry).
Anyway i suffered some discard spells but i landed the combo in both games helped by a grass that was stopping batterskull in G1 and in G2 i have sided in 4 leyline that protected me by discard spells. The sterling grove protected the enchantments so i have won with the combo like usual.

Game 4 against Goblin
G1 He was really fast and i had to risk an early confinement with 4hp and 1 argothian in game. He was locking me a bit with rishadan port on serra's sanctum but fortunately after the initial risk, i stabilized my game (and my drawing engine) winning with the combo.
G2 Similar to game 1, i played a bit slowly because i had to protect my enchantments with sterling groves against his sideboard. Then i have won with helm+rip again.

TOP4

Game 1 against UW Miracle (a sort of; geist, jace, elspeth, angels,...)
G1 Thank to city of solitude i played with the necessary calm until i landed the combo.
G2 The right counters on my spells exposed me to geist, clique, elspeth,..., killing me.
G3 This match was a bit particular. I was playing with lot of pression, counters in early game, jace and a precary draw engine. I risked a choke tutored by grove to force him to stay untapped (he had detention sphere ready to burn my rip in game) and during my draw phase, he "cliqued" me discarding the choke but granting me the chance to topdeck the helm. Topdecked the helm, im ready for the final.

Final against "a sort of chepalid maniac combo"
G1 and G2 gone in a single way: he have won with maniac the turn 2 double protected with forces. Enchantress is 20/80 against combo like ANT but leyline and RIP can help a bit. Against this, was really no way.

Anyway, thanks to my enchantress and several top4, i have finally a savannah ;P

Bye and sorry for my english.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm surprised Enchantress hasn't used this combo sooner. GIves it a win con that doesn't need the enchantress and a card those hoses most of the creatures and decks in the format.

[renna]

I'm surprised Enchantress hasn't used this combo sooner. GIves it a win con that doesn't need the enchantress and a card those hoses most of the creatures and decks in the format.

Honestly after the release of RIP, i have istantly bought 2 helms (4€ both, just in time) and this combo was the fuel/win condition missing in this deck (that helped me to score several top). Before this combo, i was playing with emrakul, words of war and different common finishers (tokens 1/1, angels,...) but without results.

In this way we have a 2 pieces combo, with RIP that is a powerful-useful-lethal cc2 enchantment that can be fast landed. And with a bit of luck we can end the match in t3. This was pure utopia befor the combo.

[Freggle]

I'm surprised Enchantress hasn't used this combo sooner. GIves it a win con that doesn't need the enchantress and a card those hoses most of the creatures and decks in the format.

It's hard to put your Replenishes down.


Honestly after the release of RIP, i have istantly bought 2 helms (4€ both, just in time) and this combo was the fuel/win condition missing in this deck (that helped me to score several top). Before this combo, i was playing with emrakul, words of war and different common finishers (tokens 1/1, angels,...) but without results.

In this way we have a 2 pieces combo, with RIP that is a powerful-useful-lethal cc2 enchantment that can be fast landed. And with a bit of luck we can end the match in t3. This was pure utopia befor the combo.

+1 and good finish.


Thx for your report.
Blind Obedience is not a card that beats all combo deck

No but it's pretty close. After thinking about it today my opponent was pretty lucky to bounce it, and kill. I think I'll keep testing it.


You should consider pithing needle, there is always targets to name (Grizzy, planeswalker, equipment, fetch, wasteland...).

I've played with Needle in the past, and it is good. I feel in the current meta that Tormod's Crypt is just better though.



Root Maze needs:
- to have it in start hand (so x4)
- to start the game (so only after be beaten and so only for g2)
- to put it in the battlefield T1 (instead of any guile of enchanted land)
otherwise it's not good. So I don't advice to use it.

Fair enough. I still may try it just to prove it out.




Like most players, when they see a lot of lands, they fetch to shuffle. Maybe you need to play some fetchs (but you have GSZ to shuffle too).

With as many games as I have gotten an extra turn with 1 life I'd prefer to not play with fetches as of yet (but I have considered them) I think this is more of a case of finding the right spot for Enlightened Tutor and it's shuffle effect.

[Freggle]

Worst showing in the daily yet.

I went 0-3 + last round bye:

1-2 to Esperblade

Game 1 - I keep a hand with 1 enchantress effect I get thoughtsiezed and it putters out.

- 1 Seal -1 Wild Growth + 2 O Ring

Game 2 - I keep a 2 Enchantress effect hand and it's off to the races. I combo early.

Game 3 - Saw something new ...Meddling Mage on Rest in Peace. I didn't sweat it cause I boarded in 2 o rings. Belive it or not both O rings were in the bottom 12-ish and Sigil got countered. I was able to resolve 1 of them and take out Jace, but with 0 cards in the library I could not cast enchantments. I go to plan b or really plan WTF mode. I had Solitary lock going so discard like 30+ cards and pass.

I discard to confinement can cast helm. I use helm and hit clique. I pass, and attack keep discarding to solitary. I get down to where I start to run our of cards, and I kept a Green Sun's. I cast GSZ for 0 to put it back in the deck and swing. I repeat the nest turn and cast it through 2 spell pierce. Last turn I need to do this trick my opponent top decks Force hard casts and wins :(

1-2 to UR Delver

G1 - I loose to a lot of pierces 2-3 on enchantress effects and 2 flipped delvers.

-1 Seal oP, -1 Wild Growth, +2 E Grass

G2 - I stick and effect and combo off in short order.

Same
G3 - T2 Daze Argothian Inquision GSZ, Pierce Pressence Game.

0-2 Bug:
G1 - Pierce, Daze Force and Goyf gets there.

-1 Seal oP, -1 Wild Growth, +2 E Grass
G2 - More of the same. Got sleepy and nonchalant about it all couldn't tell you for sure.

Learned. You have to be carefull of the hands you keep with pierce decks, and even then sometimes they will just have the nutz. I really need to find room for Enlightened Tutor I have been having too many game looses s a result of how my deck is stacked, and in most cases fetches would not help. Also note that if the engine is running we could care less about Abrupt Decay. The Engine is everything so maybe we should squeeze in a 4th GSZ for more Enchantress Effects and shuffles. Plus plan WTF wins. Elephant Grass just felt bad all night.

I also never wanted to board in Leyline. There were games where I could, but I just don't want to draw into them. I think I may have boarded incorrectly, but if I'm not bringing them in maybe I should look at other tech. in those slots.

List ran just like last plus these minor changes.

Main: -1 Ground Seal, +1 Elephant Grass. SB: -1 Elephant Grass (moved to main) +1 Tormod's Crypt

[Dihensoeur]

Thx for report.

Now, Elephant Grass is only good VS Batterskull, black creatures, or mass creatures. But not vs Delver/Tarmogoyf because the opponent needs to attack with only one creature to put us down.
That one of the reasons why I searched anti-creatures in enchantress.
I tried Porphyry Nodes in an Argoless version but it's too slow.
Soul Snare is bad too because we need to kill creatures that we want (like Dark confidant before it give CA to the opponent) and when we want.
My solution (except to play Swords to Plowshares) is Seal of fire.
It allows us to kill all dangerous creatures (for goyf, we have RiP) and as quickly as StP.

"An empty battlefield is a safe battlefield for us"

If you can test it, test it :cool:.

Regards,
Dihensoeur.

[Just me]

So what can we do to get a sick enchantment out of the 'You make the card' contest?

It would have to be viable in standard to I suppose. It would have to be either green or white. It should cost no more as 2 mana. It should do something special (look at all the other 'you make the card cards)

Maybe something like

1G
Tap an echantment to do ...?

or

Sacrifice an enchantment for effect ... ?

Pretty unique to have enchantments being used in new ways

[bkemke]

Freggle, just to throw some ideas out there - what do you think about Chains of Mephistopheles? It turns Ponder into a loot, makes Brainstorm worthless and Griselbrand into a mere 7/7 Flying Lifelink Creature.

However, it's probably bad with enchantress effects...

[Just me]

Wow, I don't understand that card (Chains);

Rules
If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card this way, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card this way, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.


So now what?
I brainstorm, discard 3 and then draw 3? (assuming I have cards enough in my hand to discard to begin with)

That might be funny with GY based Enchantress (ditch Rest in Pease, welcome back Replenish)?

[bkemke]

Freggle, get to work on that...

Junk (G/W/B) Enchantress deck that run MD Chains, discard effects and Replenish as a finisher. IDK if it would be any good but it sounds fun!

[alphastryk]

Wow, I don't understand that card (Chains);

Rules
If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card this way, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card this way, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.


So now what?
I brainstorm, discard 3 and then draw 3? (assuming I have cards enough in my hand to discard to begin with)

That might be funny with GY based Enchantress (ditch Rest in Pease, welcome back Replenish)?

Draw 3 is treated as draw 1, draw 1, draw 1. You would: discard, draw, discard, draw, discard, draw, put two back.

With the enchantresses you would always loot or mill as well. It might be possible to setup to win out of the yard, but it seems like more work than it would be worth.

[Freggle]

I have tried Chains in enchantress in the past but not extensively. The issue of switching from RIP to Chains is RIP kills strategies whereas Chains just hinders draw. They are not on the same plane as far as independent effectiveness.

It also makes it that you can not effectively run Solitary Confinement. The only strategy that Chains hinders main is our own.

The best black enchantment Enchantress can run is The Abyss (since it targets) followed by chains & words or ?, but even that is lack luster by comparison.

However, a reanimation strategy with Chains and Animate Dead would be fun but likely casual.

[nedleeds]

I can't think of 2 better sideboard cards against Enchantress than Ethersworn Canonist and Rule of Law. Maybe Presence of the Master?

Chains of Mephistopheles <golf clap>, so in the last page people have advocated playing 3 of the best cards against Enchantress in Enchantress. Anyone want to roll out Dystopia? Maybe Trinisphere?

[alphastryk]

Chains of Mephistopheles <golf clap>, so in the last page people have advocated playing 3 of the best cards against Enchantress in Enchantress. Anyone want to roll out Dystopia? Maybe Trinisphere?

Perhaps Nether Void?

If we are actually having trouble with combo, how do we feel about Runed Halo or Nevermore?

[nedleeds]

Perhaps Nether Void?

If we are actually having trouble with combo, how do we feel about Runed Halo or Nevermore?

The people here would likely love to run Nether Void, Sphere of Resistance and a playset of Acid Rain.

White Leyline is a start against combo then flavor from there, reanimator combo caves to Rest in Peace. Tendrils caves to white leyline and Sterling Grove. Show and Tell can't beat O-Ring / D-Sphere. I think Nevermore is the only thing that been discussed that merits any discussion versus combo, it's also marginally useful versus Abrupt Decay, Liliana and a few other cards that are tough for enchantress to fight.

[Dihensoeur]

I can't think of 2 better sideboard cards against Enchantress than Ethersworn Canonist and Rule of Law. Maybe Presence of the Master?

Ethersworn Canonist and Rule of Law are, for me, the best weapon VS storm/elves decks. Even they are bad for enchantress, they are very very bad for storm/elves and can be put to the battlefield T2 with the most chance than any other solution (with tutor).
Actually, Enchantress needs only to play a RiP and a Helm and not necessarily to play lot of cards in a turn (and can play tutor during opponent's turn). There is no problem to play those cards when those cards kill an opponent.
- Leyline+Grove are not enough because you need to play Leyline + 2 Grove before T3.... (and totally useless vs elves).
- Mindbreak trap is not enough because Silence and discard are often played in ANT (and totally useless vs elves).

But if you have a real best idea, tell us and please give us your enchantress list.

[phazonmutant]

Ethersworn Canonist and Rule of Law are, for me, the best weapon VS storm/elves decks. Even they are bad for enchantress, they are very very bad for storm/elves and can be put to the battlefield T2 with the most chance than any other solution (with tutor).
Actually, Enchantress needs only to play a RiP and a Helm and not necessarily to play lot of cards in a turn (and can play tutor during opponent's turn). There is no problem to play those cards when those cards kill an opponent.
- Leyline+Grove are not enough because you need to play Leyline + 2 Grove before T3.... (and totally useless vs elves).
- Mindbreak trap is not enough because Silence and discard are often played in ANT (and totally useless vs elves).

But if you have a real best idea, tell us and please give us your enchantress list.

Why don't you just play your own Silences? Storm would definitely be surprised! Between Leyline and Solitary Confinement, it seems like you should be well set-up to find a shroud effect.

I'm not quite sure why Elves is a problem. You own a Moat, right? Between that, Humility, and RiP-Field, seems like Enchantress should be favored.

[Dihensoeur]

Why don't you just play your own Silences? Storm would definitely be surprised! Between Leyline and Solitary Confinement, it seems like you should be well set-up to find a shroud effect.
Silence is not enough to win versus Storm.
- If you have only one silence in hand: he play discard, you response with silence, OK next turn he kill you.
- If you have both Leyline and silence: first, the chance to have both in start hand is very short. Second, he start combo, take a bounce, you play silence ok you will probably win. In g3 you need to have again both Leyline and Silence but opponent will get first the bounce and or play Silence too.

Canonist will be managed by the opponent. But it allow us to gain time to get the combo or more protection. And have 2 lands + one tutor/canonist is easier than have both leyline + other card like silence or mindbreak trap.



I'm not quite sure why Elves is a problem. You own a Moat, right? Between that, Humility, and RiP-Field, seems like Enchantress should be favored.
- Moat is a very expensive card and few people have it.
- it's not more efficient in the actual meta so people doesn't play it anymore.
- it cost 4 and elves can kill you turn 2.

it's the same for humility: cost 4 and so will be arrive too late.

Energy Field can protect us for the g1 if the opponent doesn't have a solution MD. But g2 and g3, there are Abrupt Decay and maybe Harmonic sliver, and elves draw its deck so have a solution before we protect energy field.

The best solution is to avoid opponent to combo otherwise he will get his solutions before us.

[nedleeds]

You run 8 x Wild Growths and Serra's Sanctum how is Moat too slow? What dream world do you live in where elves turn 2's you? How often does that happen? Then matrix that dream elf world scenario across a real tournament. I think you are in a remote corner case.

About Moat. I own 4 Moats. Within 48 hours I could possess 12 Moats from local legacy players. If you want to discuss budget decks there is a forum for that. Citing the cost of a card is ridiculous.

"not more efficient in the actual meta so people doesn't play it anymore." this makes zero sense. Moat is one of the most efficient cards ever printed in the history of Magic. For example, versus goblins you utilize 1 Magic card and you shut off approximately 30 of his. Leaving him something awful like Siege ganging you to death. For example, versus elves you utilize 1 Magic card and then they can't attack you (assuming Craterhoof, which is the only thing I can think of that could kill you fast enough in the magical dream world you describe above).

Posting lists is pointless when people are suggesting playing Rule of Law, Ethersworn Canonist and Chains and other cards that directly trump the core plan of enchantress, which is fast mana production and it's draw engine.

[Freggle]

You run 8 x Wild Growths and Serra's Sanctum how is Moat too slow? What dream world do you live in where elves turn 2's you? How often does that happen? Then matrix that dream elf world scenario across a real tournament. I think you are in a remote corner case.

About Moat. I own 4 Moats. Within 48 hours I could possess 12 Moats from local legacy players. If you want to discuss budget decks there is a forum for that. Citing the cost of a card is ridiculous.

"not more efficient in the actual meta so people doesn't play it anymore." this makes zero sense. Moat is one of the most efficient cards ever printed in the history of Magic. For example, versus goblins you utilize 1 Magic card and you shut off approximately 30 of his. Leaving him something awful like Siege ganging you to death. For example, versus elves you utilize 1 Magic card and then they can't attack you (assuming Craterhoof, which is the only thing I can think of that could kill you fast enough in the magical dream world you describe above).

Posting lists is pointless when people are suggesting playing Rule of Law, Ethersworn Canonist and Chains and other cards that directly trump the core plan of enchantress, which is fast mana production and it's draw engine.
In general Moat is not really playable right now. Most Enchantress veterans swapped to the newly printed Sphere of Saftey for that type of effect since it also works against flying creatures like Delver, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Iona… Having said that, I personally don’t think the effect is needed ATM. Our slots would be better spent on making sure our engine is online and hitting the Confiment lock.

We are better served doing this because it will make the deck overall more resilient to counter magic, and provides player shroud. Moat is a carry-over from a time period in which you could not play 12 3 CMC or less Enchantress’s (Argothian, Pressence, Green Sun’s), and couldn’t really count on the engine early. I personally feel that has changed the engine is now reliable.

What Dihensoeur is suggesting is not conventional, but I can see that it may be effective. It is entirely plausible that there are matches where the engine is too slow, so you might as well hate them out. It wouldn’t be my first plan of attack, but I don’t think it was Dihensoeur’s since he has been playing a lot of different Enchantress builds like I have.
At any rate Nedleess, I hope you stick around to help further innovate, and Dihensoeur keep testing, and let us know your win percentage with combo with your set-up.
Personally, I’m going to test others. Although Root Maze is symmetrical when your opponents play fetches & or accelerate out artifact mana, and we ramp by design it isn’t. I think it might be a powerful weapon in conjunction with Leyline to effectively stall a game till we can lock.
I can see it severely hindering cantrip spells and “go off” turns.

I will be adding main deck Enlightened Tutors as well. This will help dial up the correct hate suite (outside of Leyline) as needed. It also will also provide path 12 & 13 to an enchantress effect (presence) under severe duress. It is especially effective against discard since it is a top deck tutor so that is also a plus.

There are also minor play like Abundant Growth -> draw trigger on the stack -> tap Abundant land for :w: -> cast Enlightened Tutor ->resolve draw trigger & get card. For need it now situations. Like a T2 Tormod’s Crypt perhaps.


Why don't you just play your own Silences? Storm would definitely be surprised! Between Leyline and Solitary Confinement, it seems like you should be well set-up to find a shroud effect.

I'm not quite sure why Elves is a problem. You own a Moat, right? Between that, Humility, and RiP-Field, seems like Enchantress should be favored.
I’m not too familiar with playing with Silence, but I did trade for some thinking they may do the trick. The main peoblems I see with it are Enchantress likes to tap out to maximize draw. So leaving mana up MAY pose an issue. Secondly, we don’t win the next turn usually so when do we do then?


If we are actually having trouble with combo, how do we feel about Runed Halo or Nevermore?
I’ll add these to the test queue.

[Dihensoeur]

You run 8 x Wild Growths and Serra's Sanctum how is Moat too slow? What dream world do you live in where elves turn 2's you? How often does that happen? Then matrix that dream elf world scenario across a real tournament. I think you are in a remote corner case.

About Moat. I own 4 Moats. Within 48 hours I could possess 12 Moats from local legacy players. If you want to discuss budget decks there is a forum for that. Citing the cost of a card is ridiculous.

"not more efficient in the actual meta so people doesn't play it anymore." this makes zero sense. Moat is one of the most efficient cards ever printed in the history of Magic. For example, versus goblins you utilize 1 Magic card and you shut off approximately 30 of his. Leaving him something awful like Siege ganging you to death. For example, versus elves you utilize 1 Magic card and then they can't attack you (assuming Craterhoof, which is the only thing I can think of that could kill you fast enough in the magical dream world you describe above).
I forgot that elves doesn't play enchant disrupt cards...



Posting lists is pointless when people are suggesting playing Rule of Law, Ethersworn Canonist and Chains and other cards that directly trump the core plan of enchantress, which is fast mana production and it's draw engine.
Ok, so you have no suggestion and strangely no deck list to share with us. So please let us in our "stupidity", our "magical dream world" and don't reply to this thread anymore.


@alphastryk
Runed halo: it doesn't work for Empty the warren.
Nevermore: it can be good but no enough.
Those 2 cards will arrives too late and will be bounce by the opponent as any card we can put onto the battlefield.
They can be useful vs combo deck but only after stop it with a Canonist (to gain time to put all weapons and overpass all opponent's bounce).

[Freggle]

I tested Root Maze last night and it's not good. It's not terribad but the card assumes you are ahead so you can not bring it invs non-combo MUs.

Also the card disadvantage of Enlighted Tutor is noticeable against contol. Therefore 1 might be the max for the abundant growth list.

[SovietOlga]

This is my current list, I haven't played it in an actual tournament as of yet. However, I play it a lot on Lackey and it fairs well to most matchups.

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Abundant Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Solitary Confinement

2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Helm of Obedience

4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
8 Forest
1 Plains
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 City of Solitude
1 Seal of Primordium
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
1 Karmic Justice
2 Swords to Plowshares

[Freggle]

Two more reports (2-2 record & and 3-1 record) and some conclusions.

Yesterday I played in a 16 man and went a frustrating 2-2.

Round 1: Half Reanimator half TinFins 0-2:

G1: Turn 2 Grizzy --> everything gets forced / loose.

G2: I keep a 1 lander but a turn 2 Rest In Peace off of Utopia SprawlAlso didn't draw a Crypt.

Turn 2 could not topdeck Crypt or a land and RIP gets dazed. Loose to a turn 3 Grizzy.

Round 2: Merfolk 2-0

G1 Confinement lock and win with helm.

G2 Bring in the grass and some orings. More of game 1.

Round 3 Aggro Loam 2-1

Game 1 I keep a 1 lander with guile. 5 turns later still no second land, and loos to dark confidant and lands edge of the equivalent.

Game 2 Good hand and Confinement lock early to a win.

Game 3 Loose hand but top decks well gets there in short order.

Round 4 Miracles 0-2

This was also very frustrating as this is a positive MU.

G1 I was forced into a 5 card 1 lander (seriously I run 19) with guile. I drop guild and see 3 3 CMC enchantments. I'm locked. I get out of it, but too late.

G2 Just the opposite. I keep a hand with a lot of land and no action and guile. Guile see 3 lands (time to run fetches.) and loose to the helm kill no less. :(

So I decide to run 4 fetches for a while.

Today I just finished the daily (with fetches) to a 3-1 finish (5th out of 27).

Round 1 BUG: 2-0

Game 1: lots of discard and counter spells get me down to a small hand, but no pressure on the board. I get some good top decks and I'm able to race back to a Confinement lock and helm him.

Game 2: Lots of permanent hate pulse, waste, decay, but my engine out races his hate with relative ease. Get there with Angles is I'm not mistaken.

Round 2 RUG: 2-1

G2: Careful to work around the taxing counter magic keeping the first few turns to ramp followed by the lock then win.

G2: Eventually 3 flipped Delvers don't give me the time to work around the taxing spells. He gets there.

G3: Starts like game 3, but there was no Wasteland for Sanctum this time. I have a go off turn and try to land Confinement lock and it gets forced. I know the top card on my deck is a land from guile so I fetch, and cast RIP draw into helm and helm him right there (thank you fetch land!)

Round 3: Mono White Hatebears 1-2 :(

Bad mull g1 and Crusader gets me in short order.

G2: I get there with a good hand.

G3: Super Bad mull. to a 4 card no green source hand Karakas and Sanctum. T1 my opponent plays Karaks (crap legend rule) and I'm stuck. Down comes Thalia and here comes the ports to seal it up.

Round 4 Esperblade 2-1

Game 1: Get there Lock and helm kill through counter magic

Game 2: He has the nutz. I try and play around his hate and maximize my hand which leads me to play GSZ before presence. I lands and he has Zealous Persecution That was the dagger from there I can not race his team with Confinement.

Game 3: Started like Game 1 but then my opponent disconnected :( I had the combo in hand with a Guile. I can't call it a lock, but I was feeling pretty good about it.

Here is where my list is at today:

Enchantments (31)
4 Abundant Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Elephant Grass
1 Seal Of Primordium
4 Rest in Peace
4 Solitary Confinement
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sorcery (3)
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts (3)
3 Helm of Obedience

Lands (19)
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath


Sideboard (15)
2 Elephant Grass
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle

Moved (1) E. Grass Main to free up room in the board. I got to live the enchantress dream the other day. Game 1 against Charbelcher my opponent makes a bunch of goblins. T1 I play E grass, T2 land + grow +pay T3 ... and I ended up wining! I like to make a video of it if I can figure that out. Won G2 with Layline

Moved E Tutor to the board. It's a non-enchantment that is card disadvantage that is in the secondary color. Some matches it's good, but control is not one of them. How have they been fairing for you SovietOlga?

O rings in the board are now up to 4 making the Sneak and Show Omni tell MU very playable.

Added 4 Windswept main as discussed above.

...and that is about it for now.

[renna]

Hello freggle, i think the 4x of grass could help a bit to gain some time expecially against griselbrand, progenitus, batterskull, confidant and so on...and is always a cc1 drop. I suggest these little changes without upsetting your list (even if I disappoint a bit on it :p). The sanctum sometime can bring a little screw and an Humility in mono copy can save the game many times

-1 Mirri's guile
-1 Serra's Sanctum
+2 Savannah/temple garden
(I'll play with 20lands anyway)

SB
-1 O.Ring
+1 Humility

But the sterling grove is a key-enchantment for the deck: hexproofing and tutoring are one of the cores of the deck imho and with only 1 needle and 1 tutor, there is the risk u will never see both in G2 during the match:tongue:

[Freggle]

Hello freggle, i think the 4x of grass could help a bit to gain some time expecially against griselbrand, progenitus, batterskull, confidant and so on...and is always a cc1 drop.
Elephant Grass is a good card, but it’s not great. Good players will attack through it. IT’s best against a swarm, like Goblins, Merfolk or Zoo, but this deck has beaten those decks as is. The main is stet-up to beat control since that is what you are more likely to see. It also does well against agro this way since you can still draw into 1 of 4 Solitary Confinements or just combo off.

Elephant Grass is needed for the slower traditional lists because you need time to Sterling Grove and the alike. This list so far does not. You either lock or win through massive amounts of draw.
This list most of the time can race Natural order is definitely faster than Batterskull even through normal Esper disruption, and it’s not Grisselbrands attack I’m worried about. We could beat a 7/7 flier. It’s the built in Bargain that is an issue.

I suggest these little changes without upsetting your list (even if I disappoint a bit on it :p). The sanctum sometime can bring a little screw and an Humility in mono copy can save the game many times
The land issue is true. I would first try:
-1 Karakas
+1 Savannah
This way it keeps my non-basic land count the same, and now gives the deck 15 on-color sources.
Humility Shuts off Argothian Enchantress so I wouldn’t even consider it unless under desperation. …and I’m not desperate.
Oblivion Ring has been doing very well for me to hit the common hate:
Counterbalance
Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Revoker…


-1 Mirri's guile
-1 Serra's Sanctum
+2 Savannah/temple garden

Mirri’s Guile & Serra’s Sanctum are two of the most important cards in this list.
You can cut a Sanctum but it is very good at negating Thalia and taxing counter magic. It also makes the deck far more explosive. It’s our Lion’s Eye Diamond. Mirri’s Guile on the other hand is an enchantement with a :g: casting cost (the sweet spot) that allows us to present the correct order of threats. It is VERY powerful, and would not cut a single one right now. It is what gives us game against Jund and a lot of other decks.

But the sterling grove is a key-enchantment for the deck: hexproofing and tutoring are one of the cores of the deck imho and with only 1 needle and 1 tutor, there is the risk u will never see both in G2 during the match:tongue:
Sterling Grove IS powerful, but not fast. The :g::w: cost is tricky. And the top deck tutor is a tempo / draw loss. It is not what you really want to be doing in this meta IMHO. The same goes for Enlightened Tutor. The non-enchantment card disadvantage is too much to bear. Playing it against a list like RUG is helping them with their own plan. Tempo you out. It may even get cut from the board as I rarely bring it in, and usually regret it when I do. Check out the meta of this top 9 (https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdigital%2Fmagiconline%2Ftourn%2F5230686). You have to regularly fight through that. ...which we can do.

The Pithing Needle is there to fill a slot that I had freed-up from moving an Elephant Grass main. I mainly want it vs. Lilianna of the Veil as all of her abilities hurt us pretty good. I’m still trying to solve the right boarding vs. Jund I can win with a lyline but sometimes you are stuck with a soft hand doing that. I have been going towards the grass, and o ring lately (to handle Bob, and lillianna) and that has been working.

[renna]

Mmh probably your choices (and mine) are influenced by the local meta, but when I land sterling grove + confinement my opponent usually scoop (because maybe he had a chance to remove 1 enchantment, but not 2). And if we land the second one we have a safe-shell from single target spells.

And against jund/nic-fit is a tempo/protecting card that is needed to save our enchantment by pulse, decay, and so on. But i agree with you, the grove is slow and need another draw to pick up the card, but I use it expecially for the shroud ability rather than the tutoring one (and against dredge too is good, so he can't use ray of revelation to remove RIP). Lastly, I really wish to try the zenith but I'm scared to move out grass or sterling. After a big tournament I'll have this Sunday probably I'll make some changes:smile:

[Freggle]

New (mini) Report: Legacy Daily 4-2-13 [3-1 for 3rd place]

Round 1 [Bye - Opponent Disconnect]

Round 2 [RU Delver 2-0]

Round 3 [Imperial Painter 0-2]

Round 4 [RUG Delver 2-1]

[Mortox]

Sterling Grove IS powerful, but not fast. The :g::w: cost is tricky. And the top deck tutor is a tempo / draw loss. It is not what you really want to be doing in this meta IMHO. The same goes for Enlightened Tutor. The non-enchantment card disadvantage is too much to bear. Playing it against a list like RUG is helping them with their own plan. Tempo you out. It may even get cut from the board as I rarely bring it in, and usually regret it when I do.

While I certainly respect all your contributions and discussion regarding the deck, I don't understand how you can consider Sterling Grove to be a bad fit in Enchantress, of all decks. It's essentially a strictly better Imperial Seal or Vampiric Tutor for this deck (which by the way are both banned in 1.5) and Enchantress is probably the best potential silver-bullet decks in existence. It literally has answers to nearly every situation imaginable.

Most of the time Sterling Grove reads: GW, Draw 1-8, Choose One - protect your combo/defensive pieces or search for your combo/defensive pieces.

edit: It's also an additional shuffle effect for bad Mirri reveals and ensures critical fuel late game when you have an enchantress/confinement engine assembled.

[Freggle]

While I certainly respect all your contributions and discussion regarding the deck, I don't understand how you can consider Sterling Grove to be a bad fit in Enchantress, of all decks. It's essentially a strictly better Imperial Seal or Vampiric Tutor for this deck (which by the way are both banned in 1.5) and Enchantress is probably the best potential silver-bullet decks in existence. It literally has answers to nearly every situation imaginable.

Most of the time Sterling Grove reads: GW, Draw 1-8, Choose One - protect your combo/defensive pieces or search for your combo/defensive pieces.

edit: It's also an additional shuffle effect for bad Mirri reveals and ensures critical fuel late game when you have an enchantress/confinement engine assembled.

Sterling Grove: It's a card I waver on quite a bit. I never meant to imply that it is a bad fit as it clearly has absurd amounts of synergy, and can be absurdly powerful. I just have a really tough time figuring out it's role in the deck.

In the GWr lists it has a larger role because those decks a set-up to be more of a toolbox deck running singletons of Moat or Choke, but in the list I have been playing lately it's doesn't have a clear role.

In the :w::g: lists I have been playing lately drawing cards, and resolving the engine trumps all else. I tried to pair down Enchantress to it's most simple of parts to make it more resilient to overall hate. When I would encounter an issue I would adjust the list accordingly. There are very few times in tournament play in which I would want to resolve a Sterling Grove.

If we wanted to put it main I'm not even sure where it would go (likely because I don't understand it's role well.) Would we add Sterling Grove for it's shroud effect (the biggest reason to consider it IMHO) then it is likely best as a sideboard card. Is it that it can tutor for an enchantment? If So what is the enchantment? ...the two most likely would be Sigil of the Empty Throne and Solitary Confinement.

...so then where do you make the cut main? You would want to place it in a 2 CMC slot or higher so you don't slow the deck down. The two most likely are (1) Helm of Obedience, and (1) Green Sun's Zenith slot. This would allow you to increase the enchantment count, but slow the deck down.

This will make your control MU's weaker because you have (1) less "oops I win" and a slower Enchantress effect tutor Enchantress's Presence that can get countered on the back end if you happen to resolve Sterling Grove.

Given the current DTB's I question if that is the right thing to be doing in this meta. Am I missing something? I own them in both paper and digital. I will test them in various slots and report back when complete.

[Just me]

The problem is that we need it to protect the actual useful stuff. A Leyline is great turn 0 against combo, but they expect it and a simple bounce the turn they want to win si enough to render it useless. Hence the need for Sterling Grove (you know this, I know you know).

Point is, it makes our hate much much better. And just playing more hate only works if it's a different card (Echoing Truth), it's cc is relevant (Abrupts Decay) and it must be in time to do it's job.
Problem is, siding in the hate of choice and Sterling Groves dilute the SB to much (and what will you take out when 8+ cards have to come in?).

Personally, I believe the current meta and the direction it's headed is extremly hostile for Enchantress. Back when Vengevines roamed the table, this deck was good to play. Now, with all the combo and discard paired with sacrifice effects, not so much. And I think the meta will only become more xtreme combo and more extreme disruption in response. And both are bad for us (give me matchups with Burn, Goblins, Zoo, Maverick, Merfolk and RUG all day long, much more fun. No ecakewalks, but at least interesting and possibly favorable).

[Mortox]

Sterling Grove: It's a card I waver on quite a bit. I never meant to imply that it is a bad fit as it clearly has absurd amounts of synergy, and can be absurdly powerful. I just have a really tough time figuring out it's role in the deck.

In the GWr lists it has a larger role because those decks a set-up to be more of a toolbox deck running singletons of Moat or Choke, but in the list I have been playing lately it's doesn't have a clear role.

In the :w::g: lists I have been playing lately drawing cards, and resolving the engine trumps all else. I tried to pair down Enchantress to it's most simple of parts to make it more resilient to overall hate. When I would encounter an issue I would adjust the list accordingly. There are very few times in tournament play in which I would want to resolve a Sterling Grove.

If we wanted to put it main I'm not even sure where it would go (likely because I don't understand it's role well.) Would we add Sterling Grove for it's shroud effect (the biggest reason to consider it IMHO) then it is likely best as a sideboard card. Is it that it can tutor for an enchantment? If So what is the enchantment? ...the two most likely would be Sigil of the Empty Throne and Solitary Confinement.

...so then where do you make the cut main? You would want to place it in a 2 CMC slot or higher so you don't slow the deck down. The two most likely are (1) Helm of Obedience, and (1) Green Sun's Zenith slot. This would allow you to increase the enchantment count, but slow the deck down.

This will make your control MU's weaker because you have (1) less "oops I win" and a slower Enchantress effect tutor Enchantress's Presence that can get countered on the back end if you happen to resolve Sterling Grove.

Given the current DTB's I question if that is the right thing to be doing in this meta. Am I missing something? I own them in both paper and digital. I will test them in various slots and report back when complete.

I can see where you're coming from, I was playing a different sort of decklist (the toolbox-type) but I looked at your list and see what you mean with breaking it down to its most basic/simple components. I put yours together on mtgo and played it a bit and I actually like how consistent it is, and agree that Grove would probably not be the best fit for the reasons you described (loss of tempo, unnecessary shroud when you're essentially running 4-ofs of everything.)

The only slot in your list that I'm not completely convinced of is the single Sigil of the Empty Throne, but that's probably because I can't attribute it to making a meaningful contribution to the win in any of the games I played (didn't draw it often, and when I did I usually had the game well in hand.) How has it been for you? Can you attribute it to many wins, or is it there to just shore your game up by attacking from another angle if the combo pieces get disrupted?

I keep wanting to add a singleton green creature that can be tutored by GSZ to sort of fill the role that SotET is meant to fill (something like Progenitus for example) but I'm not sure about this; it just seems like the GSZ aren't always being utilized to their fullest; I mean situations where I have 2 argothians and 2 enchantress' presence in play, I'm drawing 4 per enchantment I play, I draw a GSZ it just feels like win-more if I play another Argothian, sort of lackluster at that point, whereas being able to tutor a legitimate damage-based threat would add pressure from a different angle while still continuing to work on the combo in the meantime. Now I don't know if this is even worth considering; perhaps you've already tried this avenue?

edit:
Also have you tried playing with 2 Helm of Obedience? I found running 3 there were several games where I drew several of them in the early game which is pretty awful. I feel like the deck doesn't need to worry about assembling the combo early, but rather to develop the board first (1cmc land enchantments, draw engines, and Confinement) before worrying about the Helm (RiP early is fine since it has proactive effect on the board) but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

As you said the deck is very tight, so being able to justify any free slots would be nice to add additional utility.

[Freggle]

I can see where you're coming from, I was playing a different sort of decklist (the toolbox-type) but I looked at your list and see what you mean with breaking it down to its most basic/simple components. I put yours together on mtgo and played it a bit and I actually like how consistent it is, and agree that Grove would probably not be the best fit for the reasons you described (loss of tempo, unnecessary shroud when you're essentially running 4-ofs of everything.)

The only slot in your list that I'm not completely convinced of is the single Sigil of the Empty Throne, but that's probably because I can't attribute it to making a meaningful contribution to the win in any of the games I played (didn't draw it often, and when I did I usually had the game well in hand.) How has it been for you? Can you attribute it to many wins, or is it there to just shore your game up by attacking from another angle if the combo pieces get disrupted?

I keep wanting to add a singleton green creature that can be tutored by GSZ to sort of fill the role that SotET is meant to fill (something like Progenitus for example) but I'm not sure about this; it just seems like the GSZ aren't always being utilized to their fullest; I mean situations where I have 2 argothians and 2 enchantress' presence in play, I'm drawing 4 per enchantment I play, I draw a GSZ it just feels like win-more if I play another Argothian, sort of lackluster at that point, whereas being able to tutor a legitimate damage-based threat would add pressure from a different angle while still continuing to work on the combo in the meantime. Now I don't know if this is even worth considering; perhaps you've already tried this avenue?

edit:
Also have you tried playing with 2 Helm of Obedience? I found running 3 there were several games where I drew several of them in the early game which is pretty awful. I feel like the deck doesn't need to worry about assembling the combo early, but rather to develop the board first (1cmc land enchantments, draw engines, and Confinement) before worrying about the Helm (RiP early is fine since it has proactive effect on the board) but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

As you said the deck is very tight, so being able to justify any free slots would be nice to add additional utility.
Sigil of the Empty Throne was added to combat against Surgical Extraction. I ran into a few games where T1 I got my Helm or RIP discarded / extracted and it was an auto loose. After having Sigil of the Empty Throne (or any other win condition really) I have lost 1 out of 5 or so games in which that happened (it is rare because of RIP.)

I chose Sigil as the additional win con because I was familiar with it's power and I already owned it online. I like it because it can make a wall of blockers when you can't find that Solitary Confinement. I have won only a handful of games with it, but it has brought on many concessions, and stalled the game in others to win with Helm.

Adding a Green creature:
I have considered this, but never tested it. Here is a list of the ones I have considered.

Wall of Blossoms - Extra Draw now, and a good blocker.

Thrun, the Last Troll Uncounterable, and a control hoser.

Progenitus - Premium Beatz

Gorilla Titan - With RIP it is an 8/8 Trampler

Adding a Creature all of it's abilities including shuffles (vs. Imperial Painter)

I have played lists with Progenitus before, but never tested it in this particular one. One decent synergy with Progenitus is its place in library ability is a replacement effect and you can choose that over RIP. Additionally, you can discard it to Solitary Confinement to put it in your library to GSZ it out. I think it may also cause a draw on MTGO vs Painted Stone (not sure). The bad it's a terrible top deck early, and there is a good chance you will draw it.

I have not tested 2 Helms, but I do board (1) them out from time-to-time. Again it's MU dependant. I have won many games with someone committing all of their resources to stopping our engine just to surprise helm them. Cutting 1 will reduce those games by a 1/3rd. Not saying it's off the table, but we should understand what the goal is before we just see what happens when we cut it.

@Just Me - It is my underlying philosophy that is the meta is predictable than we should be able to tailor an enchantress to that meta to gain an edge. Granted some better than others, but there a lot of tools not used in traditional lists because they are symmetrical (Root Maze come to mind) but it may work in the right list. Now granted there are times when you should just put enchantress down, but if it what you enjoy, and you like a challenge then why not tinker & test?

[Just me]

The core issue (as I see it) with Enchantress is something that cannot really be tinkered with. It would require some new cards for the archetype.

The core issue being speed. In a strong game/opening, our engine usually is dropped on turn 2, revs the engine turn 3 and becomes dominating on turn 4 (with a RIP + Helm FTW, a lock or other overwhelming advantage).

That same turn 2 we invest in our engine, you could be dead against a host of options (Tin Fin, Belcher, Storm variations, Show and Tell variations and even Reanimator can semi-lock you with Iona). So basically, our fundamental turn is too slow. Also, against Jund (or any deck with both discard and Liliana), on turn 2 your stong opener will be ripped apart and we're left topdecking (hopefully with a Mirri's Guile to have some options). (keep in mind that in the Netherlands, the meta has an awful lot of combo-players and a lot of decks revolving around discard and counters (the Thoughtseize/FOW decks in various iterations, or half of that, either the U of the B)).

This can be solved in two ways;
1) get faster (what your deck is doing admirably, also thanks to RIP and our own option to a fast combo-win now, com[pared to traditional 'Solitaire')
2) slow the game down (more the gameplan of Solitaire, with Moat, Confinement, Elephant Grass and maybe Rootmaze, Surpression Field,...)

These are not necassarily mutually exclusive in a deck.

Thing is, I don't know how to approach the issue of the fundamental turn. I do know that I really like the RIP-Helm combo because the GY hate is nice to have and the kill is fairly resilient and direct. I will try some Abundant Growths in my next version. Maybe an unbanned Earthcraft could inspire a new direction for the deck (although I suspect that it might be a better deck, it will be better against the same decks we're good against already).

And I will play the first Enlighted Tutor over the second Helm in that deck any day since it's more flexibilty and the additional draws it has (the deck) compensate easily. Mystical Tutor is banned for a reason and U deck couldn't abuse it as much as we can Enlighted Tutor (in terms of speed into actually getting in hand. Quality of targets is up for discussion).

Yes, I'm a bit down on my favorite deck right now :cry::cry::cry:.

[Mortox]

@Freggle
Thanks for the suggestions regarding my comments.

I may try Thrun at some point as I feel the Ux control games can be very frustrating when the opponent knows what they're doing and makes sure to counter your draw-engine spells; additionally some of these lists (Miracles?) also plays the RiP/Helm combo so if you land the RiP they can just let it resolve and next turn helm/win, or just sit on their counters until they draw their helm. Some of the most frustrating games of my life getting all my Argothians, Presences' and GSZ's countered turn after turn until I'm sitting on a couple Confinements and Helms or something like that... I mean I could try City of Solitude to add a bit of depth but I'm not entirely sure if it's the best route.

@Just me
I think you're exactly right regarding the speed of the deck, I mean when it runs properly it's rather predictable, T1 land enchantment (sometimes Mirri's,) T2 Enchantress, then proceed to dump hand over the next few turns until combo/lockout is assembled.

It presents a bit of a tempo problem I feel, when you're against a deck where one of your enchantments might be a better play over getting your engine online, but without knowing for sure it can be a gamble either way. I guess I tend to play somewhat greedy which leaves me exposed to losses I might otherwise avoid; situations like where my unknown opponent has a Polluted Delta on board, they're on the draw, they could easily be combo (Reanimate/Tin Fins/ANT, etc) or just a random Ux deck, and on my T2 I'm faced with playing out an Enchantress, or dropping a Rest in Peace, this has come up quite a bit, and typically against an unknown I'll just play the Enchantress. Many times they proceed to go off the following turn and of course end up requiring their graveyard to do so. If I played the RiP I may have won/stayed in the game, but if I was incorrect in guessing their deck it would have set me back quite a bit in terms of tempo/draw.

In terms of slowing the game down, I feel our options here are also slow, at best T2, and against the decks we want to slow down, that's sometimes too late. Bringing in a playset of Leyline of Sanctity against appropriate decks can help but typically you're facing off against 3-4x Chain of Vapor and/or Abrupt Decays as well.

As you said, Enlightened Tutor might be a good idea here, it sort of answers a couple of my complaints from a previous post above (regarding drawing too many Helms on occasion running it as a 3-of) and could help fill the tutor role of Sterling Grove as well. I'll try fitting 2 Enlightened into my list (one in place of a Helm, not sure where I'll get the second free spot yet) and see how it runs.

[Freggle]

These are not necassarily mutually exclusive in a deck.

This is very true. The Enchantress deck I was working on prior to this here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23437-Developmental-Spreading-Illusions-An-Enchantress-Variant&highlight=developmental) aimed to both accelerate and disrupt at the same time.

The goal was simple disrupt turn your opponents lands into island, and gain copious amounts of advantage off of Carpet of Flowers and land a Choke. The engine was surprisingly effective. I tabled at the time because playing the deck was stressful you would always be on the verge of killing yourself, and then you had the dis-synergy with Emrakul putting you island enchants in your own graveyard.

I wonder if the two could be merged. Instead of winning with a Defense of the Heart you could switch to Helm. You could free up slots because the deck already ran graveyard hate (at the time Wheel of Sun and Moon) to be even more disruptive.

Resolving a Liliana is not easy when all of your lands are Islands.

As for the MU's you mentioned all of them use artifact mana to combo (usually) ...so why haven't we tested Chalice of the Void @ 0? ...or really explored Root Maze or both?

Of all the MU's listed I feel strongest against S&T because our 75 should have 4 Oblivion Rings, and I main (2) Karakas.

I think your assessment is right, but there is no rule that you have to play your enchantress first. If you hose your opponent well enough you won't care.

G1 - Blind your right that is how it goes, but I do tend to play my games 2 & 3 differently. ...and that is why I just keep the main the purest enchantress list I can because blind that is the line I will take.


I mean I could try City of Solitude to add a bit of depth but I'm not entirely sure if it's the best route.

City of Solitude on paper looks good, but plays horribly. If you want to resolve an enchantress play a 4th GSZ or an Venduran becuase it will affect the game immediately when it resolves. Strangely Ground Seal is also a good call. The independent draw trigger will pressure their counter magic (your spells will out number theirs.) ...and shut of Snapcaster Mage and Academy Ruins if they are run.

[Mortox]

Ok so I've been running into A LOT of OmniShow/Dream Hall decks lately during play testing.

I feel like we're pretty soft to it, the most obvious answers we have (in most decks) are O-Ring and Seal of Primordium, unfortunately they aren't actually answers since the OmniShow player will just Cunning Wish for a Trickbind and stifle the effect of either, proceeding to win via storm or Emrakul.

I was thinking something like Rule of Law (more synergistic, but more prohibitive to us) or Trinisphere (less synergistic, but we can more easily go over-the-top of the effect with our mana production) could be added to slow them down; neither can be removed by the opponent the turn they enter play (when brought in off Show & Tell obv.) essentially buying us time to find/cast an O-ring or Primordium on the subsequent turn. Realistically either option is just a bandaid fix though, since the OmniShow player is bound to have some bounce effect, it will just take them an extra turn or two to seal the deal, but it might be enough time for us to find a more permanent answer.

Anyone have any experience playing GW Enchantress vs OmniShow/Dream Halls? Any better solutions besides those that I mentioned?

[Freggle]

Ok so I've been running into A LOT of OmniShow/Dream Hall decks lately during play testing.

I feel like we're pretty soft to it, the most obvious answers we have (in most decks) are O-Ring and Seal of Primordium, unfortunately they aren't actually answers since the OmniShow player will just Cunning Wish for a Trickbind and stifle the effect of either, proceeding to win via storm or Emrakul.

I was thinking something like Rule of Law (more synergistic, but more prohibitive to us) or Trinisphere (less synergistic, but we can more easily go over-the-top of the effect with our mana production) could be added to slow them down; neither can be removed by the opponent the turn they enter play (when brought in off Show & Tell obv.) essentially buying us time to find/cast an O-ring or Primordium on the subsequent turn. Realistically either option is just a bandaid fix though, since the OmniShow player is bound to have some bounce effect, it will just take them an extra turn or two to seal the deal, but it might be enough time for us to find a more permanent answer.

Anyone have any experience playing GW Enchantress vs OmniShow/Dream Halls? Any better solutions besides those that I mentioned?

I have run into them too, and this current build is not favorable, but it is also not a auto scoop. The trick is to win faster than them. So our ramp can be good or additional helms (you can deck them before they can petals for their answers if you have mana open have Rest in Peace in play and drop in helm off of S&T)

The next best thing is to slow them down, or answer their wins. Oblivion Ring is not great but decent.

Here is a list of cards I would put in the test queue:

Choke
Nevermore
Root Maze
Sigarda, Host of Herons <--- GSZ for Emrakul & win faster. This can also be good for control, and Jund


After that I might have some more to test.

I went 3-1 in tonight's Legacy daily 4-17-2013

Round 1: Land Destruction / Burn (2-0)

It was basically a bye. Sorry man.

Round 2: Imperial Painter (2-0)

I finally beat this deck. Today I was the lucky one.

Round 3: Miracles (1-2)

Game 1 Counterbalance and force was nasty to me.

Game 2 I took very early

Game 3 Just wasn't the right hand. I had a lot of business, but no way to stick it. So much counter magic. I went deep on using helm to hit a threat. Hit Venser, and Ossarman Karakased it back to his hand. ...and that was the beginning of the end.

Round 4 Counter balanace Jund?

Sorry I don't know my guilds but it was BRUG I think.

G1 was Enchantress effect overload through Counter Balance. Stuck a Solitary and got the concession.

G2 An early helm kill through Counter Balance.



In the interest of full disclosure I did have a 0-2 drop (well technically 0-3 kick off forgot to drop) a few days ago. Like any deck the cards were not in my favor, and I was mulling like a mad man.

[Mortox]

Thanks for the suggestions Freggle, I did consider the Helm idea the other day when I had a RiP in play and they played the Show & Tell, unfortunately I didn't have any mana open (I could have, I played some inconsequential spell on my turn though, lesson learned.)

Although even that isn't a sure answer as the deck always seems to have the Cunning Wish in hand for that faithful Trickbind - honestly in my ~20+ games against Omni they seem to have that Wish in hand every single time. Bad luck on my part I guess.

Unrelated, but has The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale ever been considered in GW Enchantress (in a spell slot, not a land slot)? The effect seems fairly one sided since we only run 4 creatures and have near-limitless mana in the later game, and it's unconditional payment on the opponents side, unlike something like Elephant Grass where they can just opt to not pay for their utility creatures (DRS, Bob, etc.) Plus Tabernacle can be enchanted with Abundant Growth which could be seen as an added bonus in the non-wasteland matchups. I feel like it's a strong card in the aggro and control matches (lingering souls, snapcasters, etc) and only really weak in the combo matchups and even then may have some application from time to time. Anyone ever try this?

[Just me]

the Freggle Enchantress (with Abundant Growth) could SB Angel of Despair against Show and Tell. It pretty much kills anything the throw into play and it's a 5/5 threat straight up. And with the Abundant Growths + Utopia Sprawl it's not all that hard to actually cast if the situation should ever arise.

I know it doesn't work with the deck (no enchantment), but if Goblins use this trick, then so can Enchantress. It just a matter of 'do you feel lucky' I think :)

[Freggle]

the Freggle Enchantress (with Abundant Growth) could SB Angel of Despair against Show and Tell. It pretty much kills anything the throw into play and it's a 5/5 threat straight up. And with the Abundant Growths + Utopia Sprawl it's not all that hard to actually cast if the situation should ever arise.

I know it doesn't work with the deck (no enchantment), but if Goblins use this trick, then so can Enchantress. It just a matter of 'do you feel lucky' I think :)

In some ways I like this plan, but in others I do not. Oblivion Ring is the most common card side boarded in when you just do not know what kind of hate you will be facing. In many matches Angel of Despair can be used for the same function, but there is one where it can not. ...that MU is vs. Counterbalance. Oblivion Ring commonly takes that card out for me. With most of the time your CMC1 being cut off not many if any of the mana enchantments are going to resolve making Serra's Sanctum not that reliable to resolve an Angel of Despair.

In the board you might be able to swap 1-2 Oblivion Ring for Angel, but I wouldn't go much if any more than that.

I have played 3 matches against Omnitell on Sunday (a small sample size I know.) and went 2-1.

The first MU I could have won game 1, but I had a misplay. My opponent comboed off, and attacked with Emrakul leaving me with 2 enchantress effects, 1 forest and 5 life. ...but he left out a Dream Halls. I cast Enchantments through 4-5 hard counters with Dreamhalls and fill-up my hand in search of the combo kill or a Confinement to stick. I make the mistake of removing a green enchantment to cast an Argothian. This play does not net me positive cards and I loose as a result of not having (2) shared colored enchantments in hand and no mana available.

Game (2) I board improperly taking out Solitary Confinement, and loose to the ants kill.

Matche 2 (2) I combo both games before Show and Tell.

Match 3 I combo before Show and Tell is assembled. Game 2 - My opponent plays Show and Tell I have Oblivion Ring & it works I untap for the Helm kill.

I think the proper way to board for this match-up is -4 Abundant Growth +4 Oblivion Ring

[Tropotos]

After Freggle's suggestion I figured I would post here too, considering this thread is all about RIP + Helm Enchantress. After my first place finish with my list at PAX East this year I decided to run the list at the NELC Tournament at Jupiter Games in Vestal NY AKA Duel for Duals. I ended up with a top 8 finish out of 90 some-odd entrants and I wrote a tournament report in the Solitaire forum as well as in the Tournament report section of the forums which can be seen here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25935-Enchantress-Top-8-at-Jupiter-Games-4-20&p=720915#post720915

Currently, I feel my list is very tight and very versatile. I don't think we need Helm in multiples. It shouldn't serve as the main win con IMO. We have so much search and so much draw I don't feel more that 1 is necessary. If they counter it or destroy it I have 2 other win cons. 1 of which is uncounterable and with karakas main lets you take infinite turns if necessary. Has anyone here tested a living wish board? or possibly crop rotation and cards like tabernacle? If you are playing blue have any of you played pendrell mists. Again I feel like these are sub par but I'm curious to see if anyone has tested them.

[SovietOlga]

I finally have acquired this deck in paper and here is my build. I'm about to play in a Legacy tournament this week in Toronto and I'm excited to experience the a new meta. I will do a mini-report with results soon. Tell me what you guys think?

The Main Board

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Abundant Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Solitary Confinement
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith

8 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Karakas
3 Serra's Sanctum
3 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:

1 Seal of Primordium
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity

[Freggle]

I took a little breather from MTG. Tropotos nice report! I'll give your list a few goes and see how it fits me.

A friend of mine sent me this link (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdigital%2Fmagiconline%2Ftourn%2F5399745) today. Looks like xLeitix went 3-1 with the Helm list. If you read this good finish, and I'd like to know what you think the weak slots are.


I finally have acquired this deck in paper and here is my build. I'm about to play in a Legacy tournament this week in Toronto and I'm excited to experience the a new meta. I will do a mini-report with results soon. Tell me what you guys think?

The Main Board

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Abundant Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Solitary Confinement
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith

8 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Karakas
3 Serra's Sanctum
3 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:

1 Seal of Primordium
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity


SovietOlga how did your tournament go? Swapping Emrakul with Sigil and a land for o ring seems reasonable it will just add (over many matches) more variance to the deck. Looks pretty good!

Seeing more Enchantress online as of late and I like it :)

[Freggle]

Here is where my list is at today:

Enchantments (31)
4 Abundant Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Elephant Grass
1 Seal Of Primordium
4 Rest in Peace
4 Solitary Confinement
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sorcery (3)
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts (3)
3 Helm of Obedience

Lands (19)
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath


Sideboard (15)
2 Elephant Grass
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle

Moved (1) E. Grass Main to free up room in the board. I got to live the enchantress dream the other day. Game 1 against Charbelcher my opponent makes a bunch of goblins. T1 I play E grass, T2 land + grow +pay T3 ... and I ended up wining! I like to make a video of it if I can figure that out. Won G2 with Leyline



When I can figure out how to do this better I'll replace it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPslZI-ieSU

[Freggle]

So lately I have been play testing a lot, and I made some modifications to the list:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Abundant Growth
1 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Pressence
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 Solitary Confinement
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Windswept Heath

1 Karakas
11 Forest
1 Savannah
3 Serra's Sanctum

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Blind Obedience
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Elephant Grass

Main Changes:
-1 Helm
-1 Karakas
+1 Savannah
+1 Forest

Sideboard Changes:
-3 Tormod’s Crypt
+3 Surgical Extraction

I dropped a Helm for the list over a month ago and replaced it with a foil basic forest so I can track if I would rather have the Helm or the forest in each game. Almost every game I wanted the forest, so the change stays. If there are any questions let me know.

I haven’t been in the dailyies for quite some time due to a lot of life events, but I look to join them again soon. When I do I will post results. These conclusions are based on roughly 50 matches in MTGO tournament practice when I can.

[drocker23]

I have read through this entire thread and here are my thoughts:

1) I feel the correct numbers on RIP combo are 4 rest in peace, 2 energy field, 2 helm of obedience. it is consistant and rest in peace can buy you plenty of time ealry game vs important cards that need to be dealt with such as tarmogoyf, knight of the reliquary, nimble mongoose, and deathrite shaman.

2) please stop taking out sterling grove. first off, 4 maindeck is necessary vs. abrupt decay. and it blanks krosan grips out of their sideboard. protection for your energy field and rest in peace is also essential since a single abrup decay can sink both pieces. at least with grove in play they have to point the decay at it first before messing with something more important. plus you have the option to leave a mana open to sack in response to go get another one which basically means you protect your combo while also blanking abrupt decay. this is the card u/w miracles could only dream of having to protect their combo pieces but it could not afford the slots. enchantress is the perfect home for this combo since grove protects it so well. play all 4 copies of sterling grove.
also, the tutor effect is not card disadvantage because sterling grove is not meant to be played as a 3 mana tutor. but while setting up to stall the board, you tutor for a key piece whether it be field or rip while having the other in play and when the opponent sees this they will more than likely scoop. and do this only if at all necessary which isn't most of the time since you can draw into stuff or use enlightened tutor instead. sterling grove is too good to cut. play all 4.

3) while i'm on the subject of card disadvantage, enlightened tutor is not card disadvantage. technically it is but it's not. it is all about how you play the card. because what you're supposed to do with it is tutor for the rest in peace or helm when the path is clear to kill them. in my list i do not run a ton of bullets so i use tutor as a way to dig for a sideboard option quickly or to win the game. this is not used to tutor up rendundant things that are not necessary. use it to find helm or rest in peace or energy field and when it allows you to solidify the game and/or win. same thing applies to sterling grove. do not use these cards carelessly or prematurely otherwise it will very much become card disadvantage.

4) i am running 4x elephant grass. i too am a little concerned that this card may not be good enough anymore against the top contenders in the format. if they have a big creature they pay 2 and attack and you die. if they have a few creatures they know you won't block 99% of the time so it doesn't really matter that they aren't playing spells. of all the suggestions on this thread i believe only one person had it right. Kirtar's Desire is the best suggestion for an enchantress deck i have seen so far. i even took a while to consider that one guy's suggestion of playing swords to plowshares. but desire is like enchantress' form of swords to plowshares/path to exile in enchantment form. you have a turn 2 flipped delver? kirtar's desire. you have a goyf that's big and i don't have rest in peace in play? kirtar's desire. how about big creatures found in reanimator, show n' tell, and the like? true you can't stop everything....but kirtar's desire. if i replace elephant grass it will be for kirtar's desire and i will likely be playing 4. that card looks too good in dealing with the early problematic creatures that can put a significant clock on you. and if they point a qasali pridemage or abrupt decay at it, that's fine too. because you made them point their removal somewhere less important thus making them waste it, or sterling grove protects it. yet another reason why i say run all 4 sterling groves. it's also tutorable by grove and enlightened tutor which is a plus.

5) i played against discard as well. specifically shardless bug. because this deck has so much redundancy, i do not like abundant growth. so what if it draws a card? it does not accelerate your mana any. you can't turn 1 land, abundant growth. turn 2 play a 3 mana spell or whatever. all it does is turn whatever land it is enchanting into a savannah as most of the time you tap your lands for green or white except in the instances where you cast a blue spell which is where fetches and a basic island become very reliable in making this happen without having to add in things like abundant growth or wasting a utopia sprawl on blue mana.

6) solitary confinement is one of the worst cards in this deck. it's good enough to play one maybe 2 depending on how many flex spots your list has to work with. in mine i play 1 and the reason is simple. i play rest in peace so energy field is essentially the same card and it makes my opponent scoop. the decks in the format these days have ways to disrupt the early turns of an enchantress deck getting its card engine going which is why the rip/helm combo in this deck is so good. disrupt my engine, i combo you to death. disrupt my combo, i draw my deck and kill you anyway. so when the early turns have discrupted the draw engine, solitary confinement becomes a dumb card in your hand that doesn't do anything and at best will cast for a 3 mana fog for a turn. energy field does this much better even if rest in peace isn't in play. and you still get to draw cards. i do believe that solitary confinement is still a good card against enough decks and with the right set up can help ensure a win. but without the proper set up it's useless because it cannot act as a stand alone stall the game card like most other cards in this deck can. i think 1 copy is all you need because you can tutor for it if needed, it opens up more slots to play other things in the main, and the deck can rest on the shoulders of energy field for more turns than it can on solitary confinement without your draw engines up and running.

7) running 4 copies of mirri's guile is really bad. mirri's guile is a great card to smooth out your draws, but it does not net you any cards. look at top 3 pick the best one, and continue my turn. 2 copies is fine. with 2 you see them often enough and early enough to put them to good use. the other 2 spots should be used for playing 2 enlightened tutor if you aren't playing them already. and if you are, 2 more sterling grove if you are running less than 4.

8) sideboard options are very important. with the new rules changes regarding sideboarding coming in M14, we might be able to find ways to fandangle things here and there, but i am still unsure about what the best ways are to fight certain combo decks or other particular matchups that were discussed in this forum. i have no suggestions on this, however what i will say is i think it is important with enchantress to have a wide variety of effects and abilities to choose from. i will be considering carpet of flowers as i have seen that card become very insane when i watched a storm player play it against me when i was playing a heavy blue deck. i would love to drop carpet turn 1 against rug delver all day. currently i am running 0 in my sideboard, but sideboards are always subject to change.

9) i never heard of equipoise until 2 or 3 days ago, that card looks freakin' sweet!

10) i do not play karakas main even though i play 1 emrakul main. infinite turns is still something i am considering. karakas doesn't do enough vs show n' tell. it's pretty good vs. reanimator though. hard casting an emrakul, taking an extra turn, attacking for 15 and making them sacrifice 6 permanants should be more than enough to cause your opponent to scoop. if they don't it is likely that the emrakul wasn't going to win you the game anyway. to the guy who said 'why play basic plains when you can play karakas?' wasteland. that's why.

here is my current list for reference. in my testing i felt it performed very well and smoothly even through some disruption. so far i have tested vs shardless bug, merfolk, rug delver, and goblins and have won more games then i have lost. they were all mainboard games except for a few games where the shardless bug player switched from a no force of will main version to a force of will main version. i found force of will to be the strongest card against this deck if the person knows how to play force of will properly. even if i was baiting him with other spells. the other card i found to be scary as well is jace, the mind sculptor. not because of the brainstorm effect but with enough disruption early game whether by counterspells or hand hate followed up by an early jace is frightening because i currently run very few answers for a resolved jace the mind sculptor in both main and sideboard. it's not the brainstorm effect that i fear, it's the fear of jace's ultimate occuring faster than i can win the game or set up and solidify a solitary confinement type of effect. keep in mind that i have only tested mainboarded matchups so far. leyline seems like a strong answer in sideboarded matchups though.

2 Flooded Strand
6 Forest
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn

1 Detention Sphere
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Energy Field
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

Sideboard:
2 City of Solitude
1 Cursed Totem
1 Detention Sphere
1 Energy Field
1 Equipoise
1 Karmic Justice
2 Krosan Grip
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nevermore
1 Replenish
1 Rule of Law

[Freggle]

Your thoughts Hey I took a break from MTG as I situated my life a bit. I'll read through this and test some stuff and let you know my thoughts.

[Freggle]

I have read through this entire thread and here are my thoughts:

1) I feel the correct numbers on RIP combo are 4 rest in peace, 2 energy field, 2 helm of obedience.

The goal of the last builds is to reduce the overall variance of the deck, and streamline it's purpose. In doing so Blue has been removed in favor of a more stable Gw build. Energy Field lost a lot of luster when Abrupt Decay was printed, and was further compounded when Tezzeret was seen in real numbers. Player Shroud is relevant and so Solitary Confinement got the nod. (4) Rest in Peace & (2) Helm of Obedience seems correct.


2) please stop taking out sterling grove.

Your absolutely right. I tested the card in the latest Gw build and the card makes the deck just silly. I now run 3 over 3 Abundant Growth


3) while i'm on the subject of card disadvantage, enlightened tutor is not card disadvantage. technically it is but it's not. it is all about how you play the card. because what you're supposed to do with it is tutor for the rest in peace or helm when the path is clear to kill them. in my list i do not run a ton of bullets so i use tutor as a way to dig for a sideboard option quickly or to win the game. this is not used to tutor up rendundant things that are not necessary. use it to find helm or rest in peace or energy field and when it allows you to solidify the game and/or win. same thing applies to sterling grove. do not use these cards carelessly or prematurely otherwise it will very much become card disadvantage.

I have tested this card a lot in the past and found it lacking in the control and discard matchups. That is the majority of the meta. I have opted not to run it as a result of that. Have you had similar experiences?


4) i am running 4x elephant grass. i too am a little concerned that this card may not be good enough anymore against the top contenders in the format.

Elephant Grass has been second string in my lists for quite some time now, and it's not missed main.


5) i played against discard as well. specifically shardless bug. because this deck has so much redundancy, i do not like abundant growth. so what if it draws a card? it does not accelerate your mana any. you can't turn 1 land, abundant growth. turn 2 play a 3 mana spell or whatever. all it does is turn whatever land it is enchanting into a savannah as most of the time you tap your lands for green or white except in the instances where you cast a blue spell which is where fetches and a basic island become very reliable in making this happen without having to add in things like abundant growth or wasting a utopia sprawl on blue mana.

I still currently run (1) its good at fighting wasteland or waste lock, as well as everything discussed previously.


6) solitary confinement is one of the worst cards in this deck. it's good enough to play one maybe 2 depending on how many flex spots your list has to work with. in mine i play 1 and the reason is simple. i play rest in peace so energy field is essentially the same card and it makes my opponent scoop.

I wish this were true but it is not. Player shroud is relevant against most combo, burn, jace win, Clique lock... Energy Field is a good card but it is not better than Solitary Confinement in a 11 enchantress build deck. The Match-ups where it is not good (not many 12 post) I board them out.


7) running 4 copies of mirri's guile is really bad. mirri's guile is a great card to smooth out your draws, but it does not net you any cards. look at top 3 pick the best one, and continue my turn. 2 copies is fine. with 2 you see them often enough and early enough to put them to good use. the other 2 spots should be used for playing 2 enlightened tutor if you aren't playing them already. and if you are, 2 more sterling grove if you are running less than 4.

Since running 4 Guiles I have reduced my mulligans by a noticeable margin. It also is always good to see since it will draw you cards for a :g: the sweet spot. Guile with fetches and now Grove is just really really good. It is a very good very underrated card, and swings / stabilizes poor match-ups like discard.


8) sideboard options are very important. with the new rules changes regarding sideboarding coming in M14, we might be able to find ways to fandangle things here and there, but i am still unsure about what the best ways are to fight certain combo decks or other particular matchups that were discussed in this forum. i have no suggestions on this, however what i will say is i think it is important with enchantress to have a wide variety of effects and abilities to choose from. i will be considering carpet of flowers as i have seen that card become very insane when i watched a storm player play it against me when i was playing a heavy blue deck. i would love to drop carpet turn 1 against rug delver all day. currently i am running 0 in my sideboard, but sideboards are always subject to change.

Carpet is a good card but an accelerant. It does nothing to hinder combo. Blind Obedience is a real card, and it my go to ATM.


9) i never heard of equipoise until 2 or 3 days ago, that card looks freakin' sweet!

What is it you like about Equipose


10) i do not play karakas main even though i play 1 emrakul main. infinite turns is still something i am considering. karakas doesn't do enough vs show n' tell. it's pretty good vs. reanimator though. hard casting an emrakul, taking an extra turn, attacking for 15 and making them sacrifice 6 permanants should be more than enough to cause your opponent to scoop. if they don't it is likely that the emrakul wasn't going to win you the game anyway. to the guy who said 'why play basic plains when you can play karakas?' wasteland. that's why.

Karakas is mainly there for Gaddock Teeg and Thalia. If it hits anything else like a summoning sick Mangara a SNT Emrakul, a hasty Grizzebrand. Even better.


If you're still out there let me know your thoughts.

[drocker23]

Yes. Yes indeed I am still out here. I would like to start by showing a list of decks I have tested this deck against:

1. Belcher
2. Shardless BUG
3. U/W/r Miracles
4. Sneak n' Show
5. Goblins
6. Elves
7. Dredge
8. Dark Maverick
9. U/W Tempo
10. RUG Delver
11. Affinity
12. Aggro Loam
13. Esper Deathblade
14. Esper Stoneblade

1) Okay I can understand streamlining the deck some, to make it more of a combo deck I guess but I really like the prison aspect of the deck. Energy Field has been incredibly important in a lot of my matchups vs. a few decks in particular that I have tested against. These decks where Energy Field was really good was vs. Belcher, Elves, Goblins, Maverick, and all of the Stoneblade variants. I understand why you could see yourself cutting Energy Field for Solitary Confinement by cutting out blue, but I'll tell you what, Solitary Confinement has actually felt like the worse of the two cards in almost every match that I've played. Energy Field is good on its own without Rest In Peace and without a draw engine or Sterling Grove to protect it. It allows you to be able to not die to the decks that are faster than you (which is pretty much everything lol). But seriously a quick tutor for Energy Field against heavy creature decks practically wins the game without anything else in play because they generally can't do anything about it.

2) Sterling Grove is amazing......lol the tutor and the shroud abilities both have been relevant in almost every matchup. And since I name 'white' on almost every single turn 1 Utopia Sprawl, it feels really good casting this card in the early game to draw cards and makes me feel like I'm not wasting mana. However, 'white' is not always correct. There have been a few times where I named a colour and then a few turns later regretted it. I don't think 'green' is necessarily right all the time either. I think it all comes down to what you have in hand not only to cast but also to fetch for. Sometimes it looks like one colour is correct, and then sometimes its not. This may just be a downside to a card like Utopia Sprawl but I feel like it's more player error. I dunno sometimes you have to name a colour based on what you are anticipating to draw or what cards you need to play right away. But this situation only happens rarely and a lot of the time it comes back to bite me is when I have kept a mulliganed hand or a loose keep.

3) I admit sometimes Enlightened Tutor is a card I don't want to see but it has been so good at grabbing early Energy Field against the fast creature decks, and has been great at tutoring out Helm Of Obedience. With playing so many 'must answer' cards, generally by the time you are ready to cast the Enlightened Tutor, after you do so wins you the game. Plus board bullets are always worthy for keeping tutors available. I would not cut this card. However, sometimes (especially vs Shardless BUG) I wish I had access to Replenish. But only certain ones. In most other matches, Replenish would be utterly useless the way my maindeck is built.

4) Ya know, Elephant Grass is a funny card. It slows down some decks and does nothing against other decks. In my testing I have figured out that if Belcher makes more than 10 Goblins on turn 1, Elephant Grass is the only card that can buy you enough time to grab an answer like Energy Field which can buy you more time while you set up Pithing Needle, Leyline of Sanctity, or Solitary Confinement. In the Esper Deathblade and Stoneblade lists, all of their guys are black except Stoneforge Mystic, and people forget that the Batterskull token is black. They basically cannot attack you with Elephant Grass in play. But against Shardless BUG the card feels really bad. Again, against the fast creature heavy decks, it's really really good. I wish this card didn't have the cumulative upkeep, or there was something better for roughly the same mana cost......come on Theros! Please give us some good enchantments for this deck? In my testing, Elephant Grass stays. It gets boarded out vs combo matchups, countertop decks, and Shardless BUG. Everything else it seems just fine. Although, from time to time I have considered cutting Elephant Grass to 3 and adding Energy Field from 2 to 3. But again, it's mainly a timing issue thing.

5) When you say you run 1 I assume you mean you run 1 Abundant Growth. I have never been Wastelocked. There have been only a handful of times where Wasteland was ever relevant because of the basic Island, or the Island caused a mulligan, but my land base of:

6 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Serra Sanctum

...has felt very solid. Loose keeps and mulligan hands can force you into playing lands you don't necessarily want to, or causing mulligans (like hands with no basics or fetches, or a hand to heavily reliant on tapping Serra's Sanctum for 1 mana) but that's magic. Sometimes that happens. I thought about Karakas again while testing. I still would not prefer to have the Karakas. Tundra has been quite useful and also the 2nd Plains has been so much better than previously when I only had 1 Plains.

6) The only time Jace has been scary to me, or when a Planeswalker felt important in the matchup was when I was playing Shardless BUG. Mainly because their disruption is so good at putting you just enough steps behind them. Against the other Jace decks like Stoneblade, you can just laugh at a Jace because by then you should already be so far ahead because they don't have enough disruption to slow you down enough for it to matter.

7) I agree and disagree. Guile is good. Guile is underrated. The downside to Guile is you can keep a Guile hand, but that doesn't necessarily mean your handis any good. Guile can help smooth your draws and everything but sometimes a bad hand is a bad hand and should be properly assessed and mulliganed. I did read an article that said if you don't have any of these cards:

1. Argothian Enchantress
2. Enchantress's Presence
3. Mirri's Guile
4. Enlightened Tutor

....that it's an automatic mulligan. Which in my experience has turned out to pretty much be true. But I don't think Guile should be any more than 2. Sometimes I wish there were 3, but a lot of times when I'm looking for cards to board out, every time I flip past Mirri's Guile, I can't help but stop and think for a second about taking it out.....I don't generally take it out though.

8) I have considered Blind Obedience as well. I don't think I'm gonna kill anyone with extort but it seems pretty solid in the Sneak n' Show matchup. I guess it helps slow the heavy creature decks too, but they are also the type of decks who can just untap and kill you the next turn. Generally, Enchantress isn't a deck of 'if I only had 1 more turn'. It's generally a deck of 'if I only had 3 or 4 more turns' lol. I did bring in Carpet of Flowers vs. Shardless BUG and have hated it every game. I like it vs. RUG Delver but it doesn't seem to make a huge difference against blue decks not playing Daze. I am considering using these slots to put in a card that is a better answer to cards like Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Delver, and hey....I bet no one considered this card being a threat......Notion Thief! Spheres I still like but maybe Journey To Nowhere? I'm not sure.

9) What I liked about Equipoise is how it removes Teeg and Thalia away during your turn when it matters and how it blows out all of Belcher's Goblins, or all of Dredge's Zombie tokens. I didn't find it useful enough to keep it in the board though so that card is out. I did try Web of Inertia in that slot for a while. Still thinking about Web in side or main. But I think Equipoise is just out entirely. I don't think it's good enough. Too narrow. I tried very hard not to be too narrow with my sideboard. But what I figured out was that it was making it really hard to sideboard. By the way, if anyone has any sideboarding tips with this deck I would love to hear it because I have a really hard time figuring out what to take out between games.

10) I already talked about why I don't play Karakas earlier so I will just make my final points here. The maindeck feels really really solid. I honestly wouldn't change a thing unless I change Sigil and Emrakul to different win conditions. Sigil almost never gets cast and Emrakul is irrelevant almost all the time. Honestly 99% of my wins have come from RIP/Helm. But as soon as you start getting your combo pieces messed with it feels really crappy not having another win condition that you know you can eventually luck sack into. So, RIP/Helm combo is solid. Sigil and Emrakul I will call 'necessary evils'. Unfortunately they feel unnecessary almost all the time. Sigil is 5 which is great against Abrupt Decay but bad against Gaddock Teeg. Emrakul is comfortable to have because if nothing else, hard casting Emrakul is game over almost every time.

The main trouble I have with this deck is fighting through all the disruption from Shardless BUG and beating Sneak n' Show. Sneak n' Show is pretty tough when it's in the hands of someone who actually knows how to play that deck well instead of average joe playing it, then it's pretty beatable. But these two matchups almost every time I have played against them have been miserable and pretty much unwinnable. Miracles can give me some trouble if Counterbalance gets online but that's easier to fight through than the other two decks I just mentioned. Also, Aggro Loam is unwinnable. Devastating Dreams destroys this deck even if you try to hold back lands to play around it.

So here is my current sideboard. I am desperately seeking information on what my sideboard should look like as well as what to take out when bringing in cards for which matchup. I have a general idea of what and why I'm sideboarding the way I am with this deck but honestly sometimes I can be really unsure. Just one example of questions floating around in my head is 'are there any matchups where the entire RIP/Helm combo comes out and are there matchups where it's your only win condition because you took out your other win conditions, Sigil and Emrakul? Basically I wanna know what is considered proper sideboarding proticol for this deck in particular.

I already updated my land base earlier in the post. Everything else in the mainboard is exactly the same. So here is what I have in the sideboard which I am still working on and would like to get as much information, tips, and help with it as I can.

1 Aura of Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 City of Solitude
2 Choke
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
1 Karmic Justice
1 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pithing Needle

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Freggle]

Yes. Yes indeed I am still out here. I would like to start by showing a list of decks I have tested this deck against:

1. Belcher
2. Shardless BUG
3. U/W/r Miracles
4. Sneak n' Show
5. Goblins
6. Elves
7. Dredge
8. Dark Maverick
9. U/W Tempo
10. RUG Delver
11. Affinity
12. Aggro Loam
13. Esper Deathblade
14. Esper Stoneblade

Do you have win percentages we can compare?


1) Okay I can understand streamlining the deck some, to make it more of a combo deck I guess but I really like the prison aspect of the deck. Energy Field has been incredibly important in a lot of my matchups vs. a few decks in particular that I have tested against. These decks where Energy Field was really good was vs. Belcher, Elves, Goblins, Maverick, and all of the Stoneblade variants. I understand why you could see yourself cutting Energy Field for Solitary Confinement by cutting out blue, but I'll tell you what, Solitary Confinement has actually felt like the worse of the two cards in almost every match that I've played. Energy Field is good on its own without Rest In Peace and without a draw engine or Sterling Grove to protect it. It allows you to be able to not die to the decks that are faster than you (which is pretty much everything lol). But seriously a quick tutor for Energy Field against heavy creature decks practically wins the game without anything else in play because they generally can't do anything about it.

Energy Field is about the best answer to elves I know, and that is where the card really shines. All the other match-ups Solitary Confinement is a sound replacement as you have time to set it up.

Oh, and Sterling Grove without Rest in Peace does not protect E Field. When someone kills grove E Field goes with it.


2) Sterling Grove is amazing......
Agreed and solved.



3) I admit sometimes Enlightened Tutor is a card I don't want to see but it has been so good at grabbing early Energy Field against the fast creature decks, and has been great at tutoring out Helm Of Obedience. With playing so many 'must answer' cards, generally by the time you are ready to cast the Enlightened Tutor, after you do so wins you the game. Plus board bullets are always worthy for keeping tutors available. I would not cut this card. However, sometimes (especially vs Shardless BUG) I wish I had access to Replenish. But only certain ones. In most other matches, Replenish would be utterly useless the way my maindeck is built.

On Enlightened Tutor:
As always tutors can be amazing. However, I have tested this card quite a bit and surprisingly I find it marginal, but I’m open to being educated. The main reasons I found it marginal was it’s speed and the pressure it puts on the decks mana. As you mention it is best when you need to find an answer quick at the start of the game. (In the scenario you described a quick Energy Field) In that role I can see it being decent against decks like Dredge (RIP or Tormods Crypt), Tin Fins (see dredge), Storm (Chalice @ 0, or Sterling Grove) ... However, when you do that you need to have :w: turn 1. The way the decks mana is configured today (to avoid Wasteland & Stifle) that is a tall order. That can be fixed, but opens the mana up for more abuse, and more exposure to the tempo MU. In my view this deck has problems with fast combo decks primarily ones that attack, discard attrition decks, Omnitell, and sometimes all out control decks not agro decks. …can and do agro decks beat us? Sure, but they are not our biggest problems. When it comes to control and combo all the games are winnable (some moreso than others which I will get to) but are highly dependent on our opening hands and the mana accessible. Enlightened Tutor can be used to extend our hate package which is intriguing, but encourages us to not use our T1 to ramp which is almost always a mistake. Additinally it can not help us with getting Leyline of Sanctity online early a card in which swings most of those match-ups if dropped early.
On my last assessment in the end it was just one less enchantment the deck ran, and it didn't affect the game fast enough. At the point of the game in which it was relevant I personally would rather just start drawing enchantments and race. Is it how I was playing the card that was incorrect? I’ll test it again and see how it performs.


@ BUG and Replenish
Why do you feel Replenish is better than Rest In Peace vs BUG? It is one of the MU's in which I thought RIP shined as it will buy you a lot of time vs. their dudes. Maybe you need more player shroud to protect against their disruption?


4) Ya know, Elephant Grass is a funny card. It slows down some decks and does nothing against other decks. In my testing I have figured out that if Belcher makes more than 10 Goblins on turn 1, Elephant Grass is the only card that can buy you enough time to grab an answer
You're right, but I look at the deck more against the field than I do that single MU or scenario, and pretty unlikely you will. Stoneforge is so slow & their threats are soo light that Solitary Confinement & Oblivion Ring are fine., and BUG yes the card is good there, but RIP basically is the same thing as it nerfs all their dudes to pretty slow clocks. To me the deck functions fine without it and I'm even considering reducing or eliminating them from the board as I never bring in all of them. Ever.


5) When you say you run 1 I assume you mean you run 1 Abundant Growth.

Yes I did. Wastelock happens very little it might just be that I run Savannah over a basic plains. Maybe I should look at changing that.


6) The only time Jace has been scary to me, or when a Planeswalker felt important in the matchup was when I was playing Shardless BUG.

BUG is very beatable just value player shroud high. Jace is particularly scary with a strong start of a Miracles player into fate stealing followed with Jace ultimate. Guile is effective at mitigating this, but sometimes not enough.


7) ...But I don't think Guile should be any more than 2. Sometimes I wish there were 3, but a lot of times when I'm looking for cards to board out, every time I flip past Mirri's Guile, I can't help but stop and think for a second about taking it out.....I don't generally take it out though.
Without running simulations I think this is a personal preference. This is like the decks Ponder that just keeps on giving. So opt for 4.


8) I have considered Blind Obedience as well. I don't think I'm gonna kill anyone with extort but it seems pretty solid in the Sneak n' Show matchup. I guess it helps slow the heavy creature decks too, but they are also the type of decks who can just untap and kill you the next turn.

It does nothing relevant to creature decks outside of Elves. It is good at slowing storms / Tin Fins artifact mana and hasty creatures. There might be something better for combo, but it is my go to right now. In the Solitaire Thread there was a mention of Curse of Exhaustion, but I fear it is too costly/slow..

Carpet of Flowers I love the card, but I fear it isn’t good enough here we need to slow our opponents not speed ourselves.

vs. Notion Thief – Oblivion Ring is all around better in your board and so you should use that. Words of War is
a house against almost all the hate bears, and is a win con I’m trying to figure out how to appropriately slash for with minimal mana exposure.

9) What I liked about Equipoise...
Got it.


10) I already talked about why I don't play Karakas earlier so I will just make my final points here. The maindeck feels really really solid. I honestly wouldn't change a thing unless I change Sigil and Emrakul to different win conditions. Sigil almost never gets cast and Emrakul is irrelevant almost all the time. Honestly 99% of my wins have come from RIP/Helm. But as soon as you start getting your combo pieces messed with it feels really crappy not having another win condition that you know you can eventually luck sack into. So, RIP/Helm combo is solid. Sigil and Emrakul I will call 'necessary evils'. Unfortunately they feel unnecessary almost all the time. Sigil is 5 which is great against Abrupt Decay but bad against Gaddock Teeg. Emrakul is comfortable to have because if nothing else, hard casting Emrakul is game over almost every time.

As much as I loved playing with Emrakul it’s overall pretty terrible in this meta of targeted discard and Rest in Peace. Many games it will just be trapped in your hand and a waste of a draw. When it workls it’s fun. …but it works very little.
Sigil is good because it works against boarded in Pithing Needles as in it is unaffected. The bad part is it blocked by Teeg. Karakas is my only answer to that right now. Words of War could do a good deal for the deck if it doesn’t ruin the mana.



The main trouble I have with this deck is fighting through all the disruption from Shardless BUG and beating Sneak n' Show. Sneak n' Show is pretty tough when it's in the hands of someone who actually knows how to play that deck well instead of average joe playing it, then it's pretty beatable. But these two matchups almost every time I have played against them have been miserable and pretty much unwinnable. Miracles can give me some trouble if Counterbalance gets online but that's easier to fight through than the other two decks I just mentioned. Also, Aggro Loam is unwinnable. Devastating Dreams destroys this deck even if you try to hold back lands to play around it.

Shardless BUG can be helped by Solitary Confinement and maxing out the Rest in Peace

Sneak and Show implies to me it is not Omnitell. This match is all about Oblivion Ring. Omnitell is rough, but beatable.

Miracles is beatable when they don’t have the nutz and if they do our nutz draw beats theirs. Oblivion Ring[/card] & [cards]Solitary confinement do a lot of work here as well because they are so threat light and 3 is hard for Counterbalance to hit.

Aggro Loam I honestly don’t think I have lost to this deck. 4 Rest in Peace do a ton of work here.


Basically I wanna know what is considered proper sideboarding proticol for this deck in particular.
I’m going to have to write this up later as it has taken me a while to write this thusfar. I am considering 1-2 more Seal of Primordium in the main or board to shore-up a lot of the decks tougher match-ups.
Vs. Omnitell – Drop in off of SnT to nab any enabling enchantment.
Vs. Counterbalance – Drop early to sneak under it’s disruption.
Vs. Storm make it hard for them to use LED
Vs. Maverick and D&T kill Ethersworn, Phyrexian Revoker
Vs. Tin Fins Kill Serenity
Vs. Enchantress kill …
Vs. Mud. Pick one.
You get the idea.

I already updated my land base earlier in the post. Everything else in the mainboard is exactly the same. So here is what I have in the sideboard which I am still working on and would like to get as much information, tips, and help with it as I can
1 Aura of Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 City of Solitude
2 Choke
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
1 Karmic Justice
1 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pithing Needle.

In general from playing lots of games with this deck your sideboard choices do not hose troublesome decks enough. When I have more time I will describe why.
Let’s keep this conversation going though because I think we can help each other.

[Freggle]

I have been playing magic over the last couple days online and racked up 22 games.

In those games I tested (3) Sterling Grove in the Abundant Growth slots.

Overall my findings are the deck can use the ability of Sterling Grove well, but suffers a fair amount without Abundant Growth in high numbers.

I found without Abundant Growth that I had to mulligan more. I figure this is because the casting costs between the two are drastically different :g::w: vs. :g:. Swapping the two put more pressure on the mana to color-up via Utopia Sprawl or non-basics. This was certainly a problem and lead to my first RUG loss in quite some time. The cantripping (or extra digging) is important when you are looking for your answer card, or sticking your first enchantress effect.

Overall I reassessed the deck and made the following changes.

Main:

-1 Abundant Growth
-1 Elephant Grass
+2 Sterling Grove

This configuration feels very right as the mulligan rate has gone down and the win percentage has gone up.

I have re-tooled the sideboard to better fight the combo meta that is online. Old tricks were not cutting it.

The sideboard is now as follows:

4 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Curse of Exhaustion
2 Elephant Grass
2 Hidden Herd
1 Gaddock Teeg


I had the option of testing against ANT the other day and realized one fatal flaw with Blind Obedience ...it does NOTHING to LED as it does not tap.

I moved on to Chalice of the Void dropping it for 0 stole some games, but once the jig was up, or I was on the draw it did nothing. It also made me drop a Confinement once and I was not happy.

So I went back to the drawing board, and was reminded of a card mentioned in the Solitaire thread. Curse of Exhaustion That card is absolutely nutz. It is unbelievable to me just how good / versatile it is.

It is amazing against storm, elves, and Omnitell. 3 of he decks hardest match-ups. It's almost worth a consideration main.

Gaddock was also brought in to leverage Green Sun's to put on the beatz while the other hate goes to work. There is some non synergy with Curse that is unpleasant, but that what the (2) Karakas are for.

So, Current Omnitell Package: Orings Curse Gaddock

Current Storm Pacakge: Gaddock, Curse, Leyline

Hidden Herd was an experiment chosen over Hidden Gibbons because it was a card I wanted to abuse in combo and control MU's when removal was boarded out. ...but now I'm thinking there might not be enough swap slots to bring them in vs. combo so it might go back to Gibbons.

If there are combo players willing to test with me come find me. Thanks.

[drocker23]

@Freggle

sorry for the delay in response. I have been on vacation and haven't had the time to reply to your inquiries.

1) no win percentages because I don't keep track of numbers like that. I never have. However what I can say is:
1. Belcher - Favorable
2. Shardless BUG - Unfavorable
3. U/W/R Miracles - Favorable
4. Sneak n' Show - Unfavorable
5. Goblins - Favorable
6. Elves - Favorable
7. Dredge - Favorable
8. Dark Maveric - Favorable
9. U/W Tempo - Favorable
10. RUG Delver - Favorable
11. Affinity - Favorable
12. Aggro Loam - Unfavorable
13. Esper Deathblade - Favorable
14. Esper Stoneblade - Favorable
15. B/G Pox - Unfavorable
16. MUD - Favorable

As you can see, with this deck, almost all of your matchups are favorable. Which is why I am hesitant to make too may drastic changes to the deck.

2) Agreed as well

3) It seems we have arrived at an impass about enlightened tutor. I don't know how else to say how good this card is and how this deck needs to be running it. All i meant about using Replenish vs. Shardless BUG is that after all the destroying stuff and disruption, if you resolve a big replenish you probably win. although replenish//rest in peace is a nonbo so I have decided not to bother with it.

4) Elephant Grass is still pretty useful. It draws you cards and against the mainboard matches where it's not that good you can just use it to draw cards if nothing else. but in the matches where it is good it is really good even still. Although, I am pretty sure that I will be cutting 1x elephant grass for a 2nd solitary confinement. Solitary can be a higher count than 1x because your assesment about certain decks in the format are correct. I can't help but wonder if the extra solitary can improve some of the matchups like the BUG matchup. Of course the main X factor being that your enchantresses don't get disrupted.

5) I have never been wastelocked. I never seem to have any trouble with my mana base or casting spells I need to unless I named the wrong color with Utopia Sprawl. And in the matchups where they aren't playing wasteland the dual lands are able to power the deck up a decent amount. The only time I have ever mulliganed due to lands is when I've had zero green lands or both serra's sanctums. Other than that, the land base runs just fine and I do not see any reason to change it.

6) an early solitary confinement with only 1 or 2 enchantress effects on line or just having a bunch of cards in hand can buy more time necessary to locking out the BUG deck. as i stated earlier i believe i may cut the 4th elephant grass for the 2nd solitary confinement to help the deck not lose to discard/liliana/jace as often.

7) I just don't see the room for adding more than 2 mirri's guiles without cutting anything important from the deck. remember, i am still running blue where as you are trying to run strictly g/w. the blue is too good to cut because energy field is the card that beats the aggro decks.

8) i have been worried about notion thief coming out of the board as well. I have yet to have that card come down in a sideboarded matchup but i believe an answer like journey to nowhere might be worth having. I have also seen old enchantress decks running Masticore which i can't help but feel like could be very good against the decks that play creatures that suck for us like Thalia, Teeg, and Theif. Jace and Liliana still take care of it pretty easily so i'm not sure it's worth having against that particular deck. Thrunn, I also really like as an option out of the board although I wouldn't play green sun's zenith to go get it. The BUG matchup and Show n Tell variants seem to be the deck's worst matchups and there aren't really any specific cards that necessarily blow out these deck archetypes. so i think we just have to play our best game against them and see what happens.

9) again....equipoise does not feel like a card worth playing.

10) i'm considering playing some sort of tranformational sideboard. not sure what exactly but options could range from show n tell shenanigans, natural order progenitus, or even painter stone combo. or untargetable big beaters like Sigarda, Inkwell Leviathan or even Iridescent Angel.

[drocker23]

i have updated my sideboard and will be testing this here pretty soon.

4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
1 City of Solitude
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
1 Krosan Grip
1 Aura of Silence

Leyline, Needle, and Canonist for combo decks..
Choke, City of Solitude for blue decks.
Detention Sphere, Humility for Show n' Tell
Krosan Grip, Aura of Silence for CounterTop

[Freggle]

Got lucky with a 3-1 record in the 41 man daily today.

Round 1: RUG Delver 2-1

Lost game one on a sloppy keep. Won games 2 and 3 with Confinement & Sigil.

Round 2: Team America 2-1

Mulliganed every game :( lost game one in a tight one after a mull to 4. Won games 2 and 3 in short order after sticking an enchantress effect.

Round 3: BW Stoneforge 1-2

This is a favorable MU but the mulligan monster got me again. Took game 1 with Helm, but bad mulls games 2 & 3 were enough to loose.

Round 4: Aggro Loam 2-0

Won Game 1 though a wished Reverent Silence just sand bagged enchantress effects and baited the bomb. Won 2 turns after.

Game 2 and early rest in peace pretty much sealed it. The rest was getting mana to cast over Thalia.

Event Link Reference (https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5936720)

_________________ EDIT ______________________________________

So I also went 3-1 in the Sunday night daily 29 people.

Round 1: Burn 2-1

Game 1 won with Confinement, and disconnected. Didn't get to sideboard and lost Game 2. Game 3 Leyine out of the board shut the deck down with only minutes on the timer I helm killed. (Then my opponent decided to run his timer down rather than past the turn to loose)

Round 2: Grixis - Young Pyromancer 1-2

Won game one on a tight Confinement into a Sigil. Lost game 2 to a sloppy keep after some mulls. Lost game 3 on a mull to 6 with the only land being a Savannah ...he had the Wasetland and got my Wild Growth to go with it :( No more lands for me.

Round 3: Shardless BUG 2-1

Won game one with Helm Kill. Lost game 2 on a loose mull keep. Won G3 with Leyline support.

Round 4: UW Stoneforge 2-0

I won Game 1 of a fast Helm Kill and too much advantage off the draw engine. I really punted a lot in Game 2.I really wanted to loos I guess bad mis-clicks Not using guile, accidentally targeting Sword of Feast and Famine as opposed to the Ethersworn that is was equipped to ... Lots of sloppy play. Still go there with some value antics with about 15 cards in the library but had to work way way too hard for it.

Event Link Reference (https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5936730)

[drocker23]

sounds like you did well. congratulations on that.

i've been testing with my friend against elves a lot lately and even though the mainboard matches are pretty high in my favor, stick an energy field and sit behind it the entire game, the post boarded matchups are what i feel like i'm struggling with. other than humility, i feel like the deck needs a fast card to bring in that either slows them down or hoses the tribal type creature decks.

what are your thoughts on dueling grounds? has anyone tested this card?

against goblins it makes their piledrivers a joke.
against merfolk they have a decent beater with their lord effects but they can't answer cards like energy field and solitary confinement very well.
and against elves the only sure way for them to win is to remove it or get like 15 guys in play and swing with a 20/20 craterhoof behemoth which on a good glimpse isn't too unreasonable.

i have only tested this theory against elves and have boarded as such:
-2 Mirri's Guile
-1 Detention Sphere
-1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

+1 Humility
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Dueling Grounds

I have yet to cast Dueling Grounds in a boarded matchup but the idea of playing it on turn 2 vs elves seems like it could be pretty good. maybe turn 3 if i play an energy field or canonist first.

are there perhaps some cards i haven't thought of? the obvious ones i have thought of already are:
Moat
Web of Inertia
Sphere of Safety
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
but these cards i feel can be a little too slow. any other ideas? dueling grounds almost sounds legit and could have some use against other creature decks too rather than just be narrow.

Note: cards need to be either in blue/green/white. i have considered splashing a 4th color for cards like pyroclasm, engineered plague, etc....but that idea just seems bad and can ruin what could otherwise be a relatively good game.

[Freggle]

sounds like you did well. congratulations on that.

i've been testing with my friend against elves a lot lately and even though the mainboard matches are pretty high in my favor, stick an energy field and sit behind it the entire game, the post boarded matchups are what i feel like i'm struggling with. other than humility, i feel like the deck needs a fast card to bring in that either slows them down or hoses the tribal type creature decks.

what are your thoughts on dueling grounds? has anyone tested this card?

against goblins it makes their piledrivers a joke.
against merfolk they have a decent beater with their lord effects but they can't answer cards like energy field and solitary confinement very well.
and against elves the only sure way for them to win is to remove it or get like 15 guys in play and swing with a 20/20 craterhoof behemoth which on a good glimpse isn't too unreasonable.

i have only tested this theory against elves and have boarded as such:
-2 Mirri's Guile
-1 Detention Sphere
-1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

+1 Humility
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Dueling Grounds

I have yet to cast Dueling Grounds in a boarded matchup but the idea of playing it on turn 2 vs elves seems like it could be pretty good. maybe turn 3 if i play an energy field or canonist first.

are there perhaps some cards i haven't thought of? the obvious ones i have thought of already are:
Moat
Web of Inertia
Sphere of Safety
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
but these cards i feel can be a little too slow. any other ideas? dueling grounds almost sounds legit and could have some use against other creature decks too rather than just be narrow.

Note: cards need to be either in blue/green/white. i have considered splashing a 4th color for cards like pyroclasm, engineered plague, etc....but that idea just seems bad and can ruin what could otherwise be a relatively good game.

Most of my development time as of late has been going to addressing combo. Unfortunately I haven't found a sufficient answer as of yet.

I have tested the following cards:

- Thalia -- Helps, but not against elves
- Chalice of the Void -- Stole some games, but very marginal ...does not gel well with the deck.
- Leyline of Sanctity -- A liability against fast decks and is answered too easily (chain, Echoing)
- Mindbreak Trap -- It's actually okay, but does not work well alone needs Leyline support
- Oblivion Ring -- (Omnitell) there is nothing better as it is efficient, and is not just a card for that MU
- Gaddock Teeg -- Tricky because it kills our just wins too(if we solve that we are on to something), but excellent at stopping most combo plans (GZS natural order, Time Spiral, Ad Naseam) can be GSZ'ed for.
- Sterling Grove -- Too slow to be effective regularly
- Blind Obedience -- Decent against elves, but marginal at best against TES because it does not affect LED
- Root Maze -- To crippling to us.
- Stony Silence -- Too narrow and stops Helm

Cards I hope to test Shortly in order I think they will be effective:

- Trinisphere -- We generate a lot of mana, and we can potentially lock out our opponents. It is also good against a wider variety of combo, Elves, Omnitell, TES, ANT... It can be dropped T2 quite regularly

-Silence -- Enchantress does not like to leave mana up, so I don't know. Not good against Show and tell

-Nevermore -- Too hard to make the right call I think, and not effective enough against creature combo decks.

-Rule of Law -- Not exactly what enchantress wants to be doing, but may work. Cannonist may be better


...to answer you Elves G2 & 3 should bring in discard & abrupt decay. Trinisphere, & or Cursed Totem as specific elves hate would likely be better.

[drocker23]

i tested against storm. i couldn't win game 1 ever.
in sideboarded games i went -4 elephant grass, -2 energy field - 1 detention sphere and +4 leyline of sanctity, +2 ethersworn canonist +1 aura of silence. he could not beat me in sideboarded matchups. this plan should also effectively work vs. tes and belcher also.

i am gonna re-evaluate cursed totem for the elf matchup. the card is a bit narrow. i mean it's also good vs. maverick if i happen to come across that deck and it's kinda funny to drop on turn 2 vs. sneak n' show so that they can't use griselbrand's ability. but in sneak n' show it's really not very good. against elves it is a hoser card and i do have a free spot in my sideboard now that i've cut dueling grounds. i tested dueling grounds, never actually saw it, and realized elves can win through it fairly easily and goblins should die to my other enchantments anyway.

also turns out that meddling mage seems to be very good against us. i was also thinking maybe instead of needle running grafdigger's cage. it's a turn faster than rest in peace in the games that we're on the draw against decks like dredge and reanimator, and against elves it shuts off 8 cards when they board in their 4th natural order against us.

i'm not an elves player but i've played against it many times in last few months. i think elves doesn't even really need to bother with the hand hate since we tutor for our answers against them most of the time anyway. the guy i was playtesting with and i decided that elves should just go straight combo against us and bring in a little bit of removal for our cards that stop them the turn before they go off.

[Freggle]

i tested against storm. i couldn't win game 1 ever.
in sideboarded games i went -4 elephant grass, -2 energy field - 1 detention sphere and +4 leyline of sanctity, +2 ethersworn canonist +1 aura of silence. he could not beat me in sideboarded matchups. this plan should also effectively work vs. tes and belcher also.

What is your main these days? Does it have Enlightened Tutor to put more value on getting Ethersworn Canonist t2?

With this sideboard plan are you saying that your MU went from roughly 30 / 70 strom to 90 / 10 Helm-chant-rest?


i am gonna re-evaluate cursed totem for the elf matchup. the card is a bit narrow. i mean it's also good vs. maverick if i happen to come across that deck and it's kinda funny to drop on turn 2 vs. sneak n' show so that they can't use griselbrand's ability. but in sneak n' show it's really not very good. against elves it is a hoser card and i do have a free spot in my sideboard now that i've cut dueling grounds. i tested dueling grounds, never actually saw it, and realized elves can win through it fairly easily and goblins should die to my other enchantments anyway.

In order for us to be effective against the field a lot of our hate has to do double duty hating more than one deck. Maverick is a MU I play a lot because it is a good friends favorite deck. You do not need Cursed Totem against them. Frankly, the main is typically fine even if they drop a Ethersworn Canonist post board on us.

So for Elves what if we went:

+4 Trinishphere
+1 Gaddock Teeg - For most tutors but kina hoses us. (we can Karakas or Oring it to win)
+X Aven Mindcensor - For GSZ, Naturnal Order, Crop Rotation. ...it also put pressure from the air.


also turns out that meddling mage seems to be very good against us.[/cards]

Oblivion Ring does very well here.

[QUOTE=drocker23;750844]i was also thinking maybe instead of needle running grafdigger's cage. it's a turn faster than rest in peace in the games that we're on the draw against decks like dredge and reanimator, and against elves it shuts off 8 cards when they board in their 4th natural order against us.

It's worth a test and can help the reanimator MU, it just shuts off our GSZ's (which I am not to 4). Personally I will test the above config more since it hates a wider breath of decks better.


i'm not an elves player but i've played against it many times in last few months. i think elves doesn't even really need to bother with the hand hate since we tutor for our answers against them most of the time anyway. the guy i was playtesting with and i decided that elves should just go straight combo against us and bring in a little bit of removal for our cards that stop them the turn before they go off.

Got it. Could be true.

Here is my current list (not sold on the SB outside of the O rings:)

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Abundant Growth

3 Solitary Confinement
1 Elephant Grass
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 Mirri's Guile

3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
10 Forest

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Trinisphere
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Elephant Grass
2 Enlightened Tutor

Very minimal testing with Trinisphere looks promising.

[TheSleeper]

Freggle I love your list, especially focusing on our engine with 4 GSZ, and 12 Wild Growths. You've even dropped older staples such as Elephant Grass down to a singleton and removing WoWar completely.

Do you ever need an uncounterable win con? You only have 3, all of which are susceptible to FoW. They can wait you out and counter you fairly easily. I feel an Emrakul would really shore you up vs Blue. Your thoughts?

Any reason for no Chrome Mox? I love this card in Enchantress, a turn1 AE is amazing and can dodge Thoughtseize etc.

[SovietOlga]

It's been awhile and here is what I have been fiddling with:

Lands
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Karakas
1 Savannah
7 Forest

Enchantress Effects:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Win Conditions:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience

Enchantments:
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Abundant Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
2 Sterling Grove
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Solitary Confinement

Sideboard:
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Solitary Confinement

Just a couple notes:

Serra's Sanctum - I decided to start running 4 of them. It seems a little excessive perhaps, but with the new legendary rule, it's possible to combo out with the helm and rip on turn 3 with just 2 sanctums and a couple of aura land enchantments.

Fetchlands - I think they are necessary to make mirri's guile's an enchantment version of the all might S. Top. Plus they all search for forests, and if the coasts are clear from being wasted, you can search out for your savannah.

Emrakul - I have tried out the Sigil of the Empty Throne, but I feel that in the current blue heavy meta it simply just gets countered. Not to mention the 4th Serra's Sanctum helps poop out this uncounterable fattie faster into play.

Sterling Grove - I just feel 2 is a good number as it helps the deck with deeper resilience against all the abrupt decays out there. Also, it can tutor on its own which is great when sealing the deal faster again non-blue decks.

Sigarda - A great target with GSZ, I have been switching out the helm and rip combo against some decks for a surprise factor. She beats face quite quickly

Let me know what you think, I'd love some feedback.

[Freggle]

Do you ever need an uncounterable win con? You only have 3, all of which are susceptible to FoW. They can wait you out and counter you fairly easily. I feel an Emrakul would really shore you up vs Blue. Your thoughts?

I love casting Emrakul, but hate having the brick of Emrakul in my hand. In games when you are under pressure of Lilianna, or discard it feels like a horrible top deck. It does not play well with Rest in Peace either (it still exiles.) So I don't think it's a great choice personally. I have thought of Thrun, the last troll or Progenitus though and for me those two are not off the table. I consider Thrun because if his regeneration, hexproof, uncounterability, and Green Sun's Synergy. ...and I consider Progenitus becuase of the difficulty to deal with and it shuffles in even with Rest in Peace on the battlefield. (discard to Solitary) This make all 4 Green Sun's must counters late as well.

On Counter magic The fact is they have to disrupt the engine with their counter magic otherwise we present all 3 wins on the same turn around turn 4 or 5 typically they do not have the mana of the counters to answer all 3. I have never lost a game to control because they countered all my wins. I have been tempo countered to force a draw out though.

In the board I currently have Gaddock Teeg and Aven Mindcensor Teeg hinders Force and Aven hinder mana development and card selection (fetches) for control. In addition, they are win cons in and of themselves.

Current Sideboard: - I've been beating combo lately!
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Trinisphere
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Elephant Grass
2 Aven Mindcensor


Any reason for no Chrome Mox? I love this card in Enchantress, a turn1 AE is amazing and can dodge Thoughtseize etc.

Yes. It's card disadvantage, and not an enchantment. It is my opinion it is not what the deck needs to be doing. Thoughtseize on a hand where you are on the play and you went mox, (exile), land, Argothian leaves 3 chances are they can hit your one and only enchantment.


List

Looks pretty sweet! Overall we are very similar. With these noteable differences:

18 land - EDIT: There are 20 I'm crazy.

Sterling Grove - I'm off and on with this card. I'm currently off again. It's decent, but many times a card that affects your opponent (not prevent) is better in the slot. The tutor is okay but drawing is better. IMO

4 Sanctum - I currently mull hands because I have no green mana and a Sanctum I would only imagine a 4th would make is worse. Is there something I'm missing to help with the mulls.

Emrakul How often does he brick in your hand? Have you ever exiled him with RIP?

Surgical Extration I tried this for a bit. What do you do with them after you drop RIP?

[Freggle]

I have thought about the above discussion points a lot today. The main things that stop this deck are:
• Mulligans
• Decks that are faster than us
o Storm
o Tin Fins
o Dredge (sometimes)
o …
• Decks that disrupt the hand and can pressure the board
o Jund
• Sometimes Counter magic
o Tempo on delver hand or we are light on mana
o Miracles getting value board wipes and timely counters
It appears that Trinisphere coupled with Gaddock Teeg is a viable way to slow decks that are faster than us. The issue is Teeg shuts off both our primary wins.

I’d like to consider the following. Currently Leyline of Sanctity is not part of the anti-combo plan yet it takes up 4 slots in the board. Leyline is also useful against burn, edict effects and discard. I’m wondering if the main is now resilient enough to fight through those things given that there are 12 enchantress effects, 4 Mirri’s Guiles, and access to once again a possible 4 Solitary Confinement? Dropping 4 Leyline and picking up 1 Confinement would give us 3 slots to fight these strategies in other ways. More to the point I’m wondering if Trinisphere can also positively affect these match-up as well in a more interactive controlling way.
I’m considering this because I never liked the variance of Leyline even though it has won me more than a handful of games.
In doing this I can possibly test a card I’m interested in seeing the potential Faerie Macabre. At one point with this deck I used to play Surgical Extraction to fight graveyard shenanigans from the hand so I wouldn’t roll over to a Serenity in the Tin Fins board. Now I’m seeing more and more manaless dredge, and the occasional Tin Fins. What I like about Macabre is it’s not cast. Therefore against Reanimator for instance it cannot be Dazeed. It also means it is unaffected by Chancellor of the Annex in manaless dredge AND it is unaffected by an active Trinisphere. It is also nice that in a pinch it can be hardcast (off of Abundant Growthed lands) to pressure life to close the game.
It’s also cute that it will remove your opponents creature and place Macabre in your graveyard if your opponent happens to Exhume. So to me it’s worth a test if I can find the slot.

Lastly, Gaddock Teeg is very good at stopping board wipes, Force of Will, a lot of combo cards Green Sun’s Zenith, Natural Order, Time Spiral, Ad Nauseam, however the unfortunate thing is it is also very good at stopping our GSZ’s and win cons.

There has been some discussion today about whether or not the deck need an uncouterable win to help with control. I’m still on the fence with that, but what if we started looking at a single card to kill 2 birds with one stone Decree of Justice. When you cycle Decree you are impervious to regular counterspells, taxing mechanics (Thalia, Trinishpere), and it works under Teeg to help close the game faster.

It’s also decent to bait a discard spell and react by cycling. It also should be mentioned that it would work wonders against edict effects if cycled. It’s worth trying to see it’s affect. At this point I’m unsure if it can be a direct replacement to Sigil of the Empty Throne, but it could be very good.

Looks like I have a lot of testing to do.

_____________________________________EDIT_________________________________________________________________

Well I got rolled in today's Legacy daily

R1 - Reanimator 2-0

I was lucky, plain and simple G2 my opponent on turn 2 goes dark rit. Thoughtseize, Entomb (in-Gitaxias, Core Augur), animate spell. Crap.

I untap and drop sanctum, growth on sanctum for helm and helm my opponent for a fattie for 3, and wiff. EOT I have to discard my hand.

Next turn I luck sack into RIP and win

G2 Win the old fashioned way even though I have to draw all but the last 10 or so cards of my deck to do so.

Round 2 Combo Elves 0-2

G1 was super close. I drop a T3 Elephant Grass to stave off my death I have an insane amount of outs because I have helm in hand and RIP on the battlefield I just dropped guile so I'm feeling good. ...nothing I get Solitary into hand 1 mana to late no sanctum to drop it I loose to a fatal swing next turn.

G3 Trinisphere eats decay and I loose.

Round 3 Painter Stone 0-2

G1 I get my only green source and wild growth REB'ed T2. No more green till like turn 6 I loose to beatz and a bolt. If it weren't for the bolt I would have dropped a stable confinement the next turn.

G2 I didn't get Leyline and I roll over to a T2 Painter Stone combo :-P

Not my day. Hopefully it was yours.

[Mr. Froggy]

Thanks for all your pointers Freggle! Much appreciated!

[drocker23]

I just got home from the starcitygames atlanta open series. there were 3 enchantress players there including myself who played enchantress. from what i heard from the other guys, i had the best record out of all of us, but after seeing how this deck plays out in a tournament like this.........

this deck sucks. the cards in it are too outdated. the power level of the individual cards are garbage compared to the spells of today. and the way legacy is, if you're not casting a spell on turn 1, and then 2 spells on turn 2, you're too far behind. while our deck has some incredible synergy if left alone long enough to get online, we have some crazy stuff we can do. but all in all, our spells are too slow and don't affect the board state well enough or fast enough to matter.

trinisphere sounds awful. if you're gonna play trinisphere play a deck like mud or something that can cast it better and faster than we can. and also cursed totem wasn't there for maverick. it was there to stop elves from using their dudes to generate mana.

decklist:

Lands 20
6 Forest
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures 5
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells 4
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Helm of Obedience

Enchantments 31
1 Detention Sphere
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Energy Field
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

Sideboard 15
1 Aura of Silence
2 Choke
1 City of Solitude
1 Cursed Totem
1 Detention Sphere
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Humility
1 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Sanctity

okay! on to the tournament report!

Round 1 - Grixis Delver
Loss 0-2

Game 1: He sees turn 1 delver into turn 2 brainstorm to flip delver. a couple of turns later he sees delver number 2. during this time i have played a bunch of growth effects as well as a mirri's guile and am setting up for an end of turn enlightened tutor for energy field when he flips his 2nd delver attacks for 6 and then double bolts me.

Game 2: i keep a one land hand with forest, wild growth on turn 1. i spend 3 or 4 turns in a row attempting to draw land but doing nothing. he plays a turn 1 grim lavamancer, plays a young pyromancer and makes 2 tokens. i found some land and cast choke while he was tapped out. but he just kept swinging for 5 a turn until i was dead.

Round 2 - High Tide
Win 2-1

Game 1: he spends a lot of time casting preordain, ponder, and brainstorm. i land a rest in peace and follow it up a turn or two later with helm of obedience and kill him.

Game 2: i have leyline of sanctity, an enchantress effect and a sterling grove in play with a couple growth effects on my lands. he combos off, generates infinite mana, then capsizes all of my permanants and casts blue sun's zenith for a million.

Game 3: i have leyline in play again this time with aura of silence and double sterling grove. he force of willed my first ethersworn canonist. i land a second one later on. we go to time during his turn that he's trying to combo off. he fizzles and i attempt to use grove and e. tutor to put together rip and helm combo but can't and when i got to turn 5 i said 'draw?' and he responded with 'concede.' don't ask...

Round 3 - Jund
Loss 0-2

Game 1: inquisiton for my enlightened tutor, liliana to make me sack my 2 argothian enchantress's which i had no follow up enchantments for. i had 4 utopia sprawls on a single forest naming green, white, white, blue and a plains. he abrupt decays the blue one and kills me with bloodbraid, goyf, bloodbraid.

Game 2: i open a hand i believed would beat jund. a couple of lands, a growth effect, 2 sterling grove, and a rest in peace. it basically went like this. krosan grip your grove. abrupt decay your rest in peace. bloodbraid into abrupt decay to kill your other grove. hymn you at 3 cards.

Round 4 - Mono Red
Win 2-1

Game 1: i stick rest in peace and energy field after drawing them naturally and he said 'oh...i can't win'. we go to game 2.

Game 2: no leyline. he sticks a pyrostatic pillar. i start to pull ahead after setting up enchantress effects. i go to 4 from the final set up spell and he fireblasts me for the win.

Game 3: no leyline again, he plays pyrostatic pillar again but has no pressure. i got him with rest in peace into energy field protected by double sterling grove. he says 'they protect each other don't they?' then he scoops and shows me the wear//tear he was unable to cast.

Round 5 - Affinity
Win 2-0

Game 1: he has a decent start with turn 1 land, opal, memnite, vault skirge. followed up with a master of etherium. i get energy field into play and later stick a rest in peace and helm him for the win.

Game 2: he keeps his opening hand with leyline of sanctity and plays a mox opal and an ornithopter and passes turn. i cast rest in peace. top deck energy field. then end of turn e. tutor for helm of obedience. i had 2 lands 2 growth effects and cast helm for 4 mana. he looks at me and says 'i can't be the target of spells and abilities.' i said 'i know that. pass turn'. he still hasn't drawn out of his opening hand rut, and i untap with 4 mana and cast the krosan grip i have had since my opening hand to destroy his leyline of sanctity and use my final mana floating to kill him by activating helm.

Round 6 - ANT Storm
Win 2-1

Game 1: i am late to my seat when the round started and then judge gives me a game loss but says i get to choose whether or not to go first in game 2. i choose to go first.

Game 2: he fetches for underground sea and volcanic island while playing ponders and brainstorms. i'm thinking he's grixis delver until he shows me lotus petal so as not to discard which told me he was playing storm. especially after the next turn when he cast a Lion's Eye Diamond and simply past turn. I got 2 enchantress effects online and stuck solitary confinement and he scooped.

Game 3: i bring in all my anti-combo hate which was -4 elephant grass, -2 energy field, - 1 detention sphere, +4 leyline of sanctity, +2 ethersworn canonist, +1 aura of silence. my opening hand has forest, utopia sprawl for white, windswept heath to fetch the 2nd white, argothian enchantress and aura of silence. (this was not a mull to 5 i just don't remember the other 2 cards in my hand). i go turn 0 leyline of sanctity. turn 1 utopia sprawl on a forest, name white. turn 2 fetch for plains, cast aura of silence. a turn or two later i top deck a canonist followed by another top decked canonist. i play an enchantress and follow it up with sterling grove and rest in peace. he spends his turns casting a lotus petal and lion's eye diamond in sequential turns paying 2 mana for each one for the aura of silence. i show him solitary confinement again and he scoops.

Round 7 - Merfolk
Loss 1-2

Game 1: he plays turn 1 vial. dazes a few of my enchantress effects. i stick an energy field with a mirri's guile in play and staring down lethal on board. i dig dig dig for something else to do, but punted the game when i set up a windswept heath to fix the top of my library and cast the second energy field i found. but because so many turns have passed by of draw/go, i talk myself out of that play which was incredibly stupid on my part. he finally realizes he can wasteland my windswept heath, does so, and swung for lethal.

Game 2: he does nothing. literally. when the game was over he only had 3 islands in play. what he was holding on to i have no idea. but i got 4 enchantress effects online and casted an emrakul off a serra's sanctum and a ton of enchantments.

Game 3: he goes turn 1 vial. i have forest, growth effect, and a serra's sanctum backed up by double elephant grass. i never see another land for the rest of the game. he vials in and casts lord after lord. i had 2 elephant grass in play and he had 4 mana to swing one creature for lethal.

Round 8 - USA Delver
Loss 0-2

Game 1: he sticks a turn 1 delver. i attempt to cast a couple of enchantress effects. they get countered and i die to his creatures.

Game 2: in this game i cast 5 enchantrss effects. every single one of them was countered. this left me with 2 cards in hand which were 2 sterling grove. over the next couple of turns, i attempt to use them to tutor up rest in peace and energy field which he allowed me to do so but countered the energy field too! the amount of counterspells this guy saw against me was rediculous! a couple of turns later i land a choke when he has 2 tundra tapped and a wasteland untapped. he has a flipped delver and a geist of saint traft. i tutor for elephant grass because i had no blue mana in play. i cast an enchantress, he immediately picks up a tundra to daze it, i pay for it, then stick the elephant grass while i look up at him and smile. i see him smiling too because we both knew that he was just gonna replay his tundra next turn and swing geist of saint traft for lethal. i acknowledge his play because i feel like a lot of players would miss that (in fact i was sort of counting on it in this situation to try and live). we shake hands and sign the match slip.

Round 9 - Unknown
Loss 0-2

knowing i would be unable to prize out, i didn't even bother to show up to my last round.

tired and frustrated with the way enchantress ran, i went home with a record of 4-5. the games where i actually got to play my deck, i feel like it did a lot of cool stuff and crushed a lot of people. but a lot of my losses came from the deck rolling over and crapping on itself allowing my opponent to basically just crush me while i sat there and watched. the format was flooded with delver decks which are already a problem for us, elves, and combo. even though delver variants were among the highest played, i was happy to see such a wide variety of decks being played, more so than usual, all over both the top and lower tables.

this will be my final entry in this thread. enchantress is too slow for the legacy decks of today. it is fairly incosistant and draws poorly if the enchantress effects are disrupted. also, the deck can't handle the type of pressure other decks are able to apply during turns 1 -3. by the time we even set up our growth and enchantress effects and start drawing cards, (if we are able to) we are so far behind that it doesn't really matter anymore. i played this deck because this was the last tournament i was going to be able to make before the invitational. i had to top 8 to make it to the invitational based on my points for the season. and maybe 6 or 8 months ago i spent a couple hundred dollars to build this deck. so i decided if i was gonna top 8 and make it to the invitational, i would do it playing enchantress. and if i didn't, then i could be happy that i got to play enchantress in at least 1 starcity event. but the deck sucks. it was inconsistant and easy to disrupt. i was hoping to catch people by surprise with it and thought they would play bad against it not knowing what is in the deck or how to beat it. but the deck mostly crapped on itself and a handful of the players i played against did well enough to take me down. i am happy i played enchantress once in a starcity event but i will definitely be dismantling this deck and selling off its pieces.

i may check in to this thread from time to time to see what you crazy kids are theory crafting, but i am probably going to play in the legacy open in indianapolis during the invitational and will definitely be bringing my force of wills and brainstorms back to battle. thanks everyone for your responses and ideas. good luck to you in future tournaments.

especially you Freggle. you're the man!

[Freggle]

especially you Freggle. you're the man!

Thanks drocker23. Sorry to see you go.

This reminds me of a friend of a friend a few years back at an SCG Standard Open. In the Orlando open he went 0-x drop. A few weeks later there was a Tampa Open and he took the exact same 75 and won the whole thing. I learned then and there. Somedays it is your day, other days it is not. Today wasn't your day.

Had I been up on the SCG circuit I would have probably driven up there for this today as well. I regardless even if I face off against you as a :u: mage it would still be good times.

If you do happen to rock a pile of Enchantress again. Try the following to gain more consistency:

Rock a full set of Green Sun's - As you said the engine is everything.

Max out the Mirri's Guile - It an enchantment and it get enchantress's

Play a full set of abundant Growth - When all else fails DIG. That extra draw has won me a lot of games, and it takes the pressure off of "coloring-up" against Wasteland.

Drop Blue. It is a lot easier to hit 2 colors than it is 3 and blue just isn't needed.

Those are some very major differences between your list and where I am at. ...but I get it sometimes I just have to walk away from Enchantress for a bit.

I'm finally listening to phazonmuant suggested eons ago.

Why don't you just play your own Silences? d

I'm testing Orim's Chant. This card does a lot. It can stop combo mid combo. It can be a wall to counterspells to make sure your helm resolves or your engine gets online. It can be a time walk just to get an untap. It's showing quite a bit of promise. I'm going to force myself to play with it for a bit just to see what comes of it.

[Mr. Froggy]

I was thinking about this last night while testing the deck, would a 1-of Dryad Arbor be beneficial to the deck? We run a full set of GSZ, maybe it could speed up the deck a bit? It would guarantee a T2 Enchantress effect.

[Freggle]

I was thinking about this last night while testing the deck, would a 1-of Dryad Arbor be beneficial to the deck? We run a full set of GSZ, maybe it could speed up the deck a bit? It would guarantee a T2 Enchantress effect.

Give it a shot! I would just hate to have it summoning sick on T1, and enchantress loves / needs basics.

Someone 4-0 the daily yesterday with a tweaked list found here! (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdigital%2Fmagiconline%2Ftourn%2F5969528)

Looks exciting! Gettin' legit showings now.

[Mr. Froggy]

My list (for those interested)

GW Helm Enchantress

Lands:
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
6 Forest
2 Karakas
3 Serra's Sanctum

Engine:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence

Enchantments:
3 Abundant Growth
1 Blind Obedience
3 Elephant Grass
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

Win Cons:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Helm of Obedience

My SB is somewhat helter-skelter since the meta on MTGO is quite varied:
2 Aura of Silence
2 Choke
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 City of Solitude
1 Elephant Grass
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety

As of yet, I really like the main deck, having tried a couple different variations of it (w/ GSZ or w/o GSZ) and I have to say I like it w/o GSZ the most. I told myself, "I already run 8 Enchantress effects no need for more," and I switched them out for Sterling Grove because I hate Maelstrom Pulse and it gives the deck a tool-boxy feel which I love.

For what its worth, I really do enjoy this deck, it brings back so many memories (Enchantress was the first viable Legacy deck I built ages ago, and having sold off my deck a year ago I regretted it).

[Mr. Froggy]

I have decided that Sneak & Show is nearly unwinnable... Wow... Horrible horrible match-up...

I almost got the win off of a S'n'T'd Helm into RIP the turn after... He had the FoW back up though..

[Freggle]

I have decided that Sneak & Show is nearly unwinnable... Wow... Horrible horrible match-up...

I almost got the win off of a S'n'T'd Helm into RIP the turn after... He had the FoW back up though..

O Ring. O ring does wonders vs. Show and tell. we can race Sneak attack, but it's roughly 50 - 50.

I had an embarrassing double 0-2 dailys on Sunday:

Morning daily:

Round 1 RUG delver 1-2
This all comes down to game 1. I mulled to 6 and keep an enchantressless hand against an unknown opponent. I had guile and fetch and trusted the deck would turn up something. It didn’t the first fetch to see 3 new cards got stiled, and it was a loosing race from there.

Game 2 pulled out a close one. Confinement lock at 2 life with Sufric Vortex out. Draw the deck helm kill.

Game 3 I was up against the nutz. T1 flipped delver. Daze, Goyf, Force, force. There was nothing I could do, or nothing many decks could do.

Round 2 UG infect 0-2

Game 1 Confinement gets pierced
Game 2 O ring gets dazed.

Late Daily
Round 1 Slivers w/ Harmonic Sliver 0-2
I punted game 1 when I opted for the confinement with the harmonic on the battlefield instead of the o ring. I forgot all slivers had the ability to destroy.

Game 2 Harmonic killed my confinement right on time. I brought in Orings, but should also get Sterling apparently. ...no I think I was just schooled.

Round 2 Don't even remember.

[Freggle]

My friend sent me this link today:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdigital%2Fmagiconline%2Ftourn%2F6021659

Pretty interesting. It's another 3-1 performance for a RIP Enchantress deck.

What I find interesting is:

0 - Green Sun's
0 - Mirri's Guile
3 - Abundant Growth

I have grown to love Geen sun's and mirri's guile but is it needed?

I still fail to see (even after playing it) how Sterling is a replacement for green sun's. It slows the deck down considerably.

Abundant Growth even with someone completely re-tooling the list the card makes the cut in sizeable numbers. It is strange. The card does tend to make the deck considerably faster at combo-ing. As well as adds some resilience.

To fight our two main offenders I'm back on the same plan for combo Mindbreak Trap for combo.

It's hard for combo to fight our board and our hand and combo so it seems the best.

For control I've tried a lot of things Vexing Shusher, City of Solitude, Choke and been underwhelmed by most of them for sticking our engine.

So I tried Multani's Presence and it has been working quite well. This allows the gas to keep coming to overload their plans. To make sure we stick something I switched out Sigil for Emrakul (as many have suggested) and embraced the 4 Sanctum.

Now wit the list from the link above I can help but wonder since we are up to 4 Sanctums, and I'm toying with Multani's Presence, if we can incorporate our combo hate into a win con ...Dovescape?

That could potentially be kind of spicy.

Oh, and I remember my 4th loss on Sunday now ...burn. That's right I lost to burn 0-2 bad day.

[Mr. Froggy]

I like the list from the link, but is 3 Sigil too much?

[btm10]

I'm testing Orim's Chant. This card does a lot. It can stop combo mid combo. It can be a wall to counterspells to make sure your helm resolves or your engine gets online. It can be a time walk just to get an untap. It's showing quite a bit of promise. I'm going to force myself to play with it for a bit just to see what comes of it.

While I haven't tested these lists yet (I'm still running the GWb build in the other enchantress thread), I've found Abeyance to be better than Orim's Chant (I've been testing them over Duress). Yes, it's an extra :1: (unkicked), but for :1:, you get to turn off Planeswalkers for a turn, and a MisD'd Abeyance (not a big concern at the moment, but in other metagames) doesn't stop you from playing enchantments. It also protects you from things like Cursed Scroll, Ratchet Bomb/Pernicious Deed, and Sneak Attack, and can effectively Time Walk someone reliant on Deathrite Shaman for mana without forcing you to turn off Replenish. In exchange, it becomes less useful against combo, but given our already-limited options against combo, it isn't too bad. Also, it cantrips, which is incredibly helpful in the midgame. Abeyance is less useful against Delver than Chant is, but in the more 'traditional' enchantress builds, Delver is a better matchup then it seems to be for this one.

[Freggle]

While I haven't tested these lists yet (I'm still running the GWb build in the other enchantress thread), I've found Abeyance to be better than Orim's Chant (I've been testing them over Duress). Yes, it's an extra :1: (unkicked), but for :1:, you get to turn off Planeswalkers for a turn, and a MisD'd Abeyance (not a big concern at the moment, but in other metagames) doesn't stop you from playing enchantments. It also protects you from things like Cursed Scroll, Ratchet Bomb/Pernicious Deed, and Sneak Attack, and can effectively Time Walk someone reliant on Deathrite Shaman for mana without forcing you to turn off Replenish. In exchange, it becomes less useful against combo, but given our already-limited options against combo, it isn't too bad. Also, it cantrips, which is incredibly helpful in the midgame. Abeyance is less useful against Delver than Chant is, but in the more 'traditional' enchantress builds, Delver is a better matchup then it seems to be for this one.

I haven't played in a few weeks (travels), but when I last left it neither Orim's Chant nor Abeyance seems strong enough for the slot. I've come to the conclusion that this deck will just roll over to some decks (like all others do) and it really shouldn't be diluted with instants or sorceries unless they are free.

I was back on the Mindbreak Trap plan as it seems to be the best for combo. The thing is every combo deck is going to bring in permanent hate against us becuase of Confinement and Leyline. MBT is a good in-the-hand option to just sometimes get 'em.

I had also switched out Sigil for Emrakul to stop decking wins as we control weather or not to cast Rest in Peace. ...it also happens to be a final trump to control should the game progress to that point.

[Mr. Froggy]

What's our best answer to an Emrakul attack? Sphere of Safety?

[Freggle]

What's our best answer to an Emrakul attack? Sphere of Safety?

1. Karakas
2. Sphere of Safety

Haven't bee playing as much lately, but my friend did send me this link (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdigital%2Fmagiconline%2Ftourn%2F6074352) to another 4 and 0 Helm-chant-rest.

Looks like Sterling Grove is a common denominator. That is not a surprise, but I do have to re-evaluate what I'm doing. Have any luck yourself Mr. Froggy?

[Mr. Froggy]

I'm still practicing playing the deck, have yet to try myself in a daily..

[Mr. Froggy]

I have come to the conclusion that Sterling Grove is a must for the deck, no questions asked. The versatility is just too strong.

Also, I'm thinking of changing the Sigil for something else as a win-con, suggestions?

[Mr. Froggy]

The MTGO shuffler is rigged -_- Luck-sack after luck-sack after luck-sack...

[Freggle]

I have come to the conclusion that Sterling Grove is a must for the deck, no questions asked. The versatility is just too strong.

Also, I'm thinking of changing the Sigil for something else as a win-con, suggestions?

The only problem is if your running Sterling what other Enchantment only win do you have? ...Sacred Mesa?

[Mr. Froggy]

The only problem is if your running Sterling what other Enchantment only win do you have? ...Sacred Mesa?

I have to come to love Sigil actually.

On a side note, I was testing on MTGO vs. Jund, and the guy said, "Why are people even trying to make Enchantress work anymore?" I was quite insulted. -_-

[Mr. Froggy]

Mull to 4 vs U/B Reanimator, WIN.. I'm not sure how I pulled that off...

Man I love this deck!

[Crim]

So this is my first time posting on the source and I recently played this deck to a 6-3 finish at Grand Prix dc. I've played the deck a bunch at local tournaments usually doing pretty good before. This was the first time I played with the helm combo and I was really impressed with the speed and resilience of it. I goofed a bit with the sideboard (only 14 cards forgetting lignify ) the games I lost were either due too my opponent having it all or bad keeps/mulligans. So without further adu this is the list I piloted.

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Enchantress's Precense
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Rest in Peace
2 Runed Halo
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Sigil of the Empty Thone

2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Enlightened Tutor

2 Helm of Obedience

3 Windswept Heath
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Karakas
7 Forest
4 Plains



2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Platinum Angel
2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 City of Soilitude
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Aura of Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Wrath of God
1 Stony Silence in retrospect was a bad choice and was taken out after the tournament

Since then my list has changed a bit. I can post that and a tournament report if anyone is interested.

[Freggle]

So this is my first time posting on the source and I recently played this deck to a 6-3 finish at Grand Prix dc. I've played the deck a bunch at local tournaments usually doing pretty good before. This was the first time I played with the helm combo and I was really impressed with the speed and resilience of it. I goofed a bit with the sideboard (only 14 cards forgetting lignify ) the games I lost were either due too my opponent having it all or bad keeps/mulligans. So without further adu this is the list I piloted.

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Enchantress's Precense
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Rest in Peace
2 Runed Halo
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Sigil of the Empty Thone

2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Enlightened Tutor

2 Helm of Obedience

3 Windswept Heath
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Karakas
7 Forest
4 Plains



2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Platinum Angel
2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 City of Soilitude
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Aura of Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Wrath of God
1 Stony Silence in retrospect was a bad choice and was taken out after the tournament

Since then my list has changed a bit. I can post that and a tournament report if anyone is interested.

I would love to read a report. As well as to the changes and how they benefit the overall plan. I've stepped away from the game for the last month or so, reading a report my get me working on this again.

Nice run.

-Freggle

[Crim]

Here's my tournament report from Grand Prix Washington D.C.

Round 1:
2-0 vs Dredge
I'm on the play so I fetch forest into growth. He goes draw discard Golgari Grave Troll. Immediately I'm grateful for this matchup. Next turn I go plains enchantress into Elephant Grass. I tell him what the card does and he immediately looks disappointed. He dredges a bit into nothing then I naturally draw the Rest in Peace and he scoops it up.

Sideboard
None I feel pretty confident in the matchup mainboard

We get lucky and win the round one deck check lottery (probably due to my 61 card maindeck and 14 card sideboard) no one has any problems with our decks and on to the second game

Game two I keep a sweet hand of turn one grass into turn two RIP he's on the play and goes LED into Faithless looting dredging two grave trolls. Luckily he hits no Narcomoebas or bridges, but I do see two of his Nature's Claims hit the yard and passes the turn. I draw play grass and pass. He dredges some more into a couple Narco's. I let grass die play savannah and drop RIP. He draws hits me for two with the Narco's and passes. I play a Sterling Grove followed by another RIP and he packs it in

Round 2:
2-1 vs Goblins
He wins the roll and ROFLstomps me with turn one lackey into Warren Instigator into multiple ringleaders

Sideboard:
+1 Wrath of God +1 Platinum Angel +1 Iona
-1 Sterling Grove -1 Green Sun's Zenith -1 Emrakul -1 Runed Halo

He keeps on his seven and I open a hand with no green mana so I ship it back. My six is pretty spicy with 2 Growths, Forest, Plains, RIP, Helm. I figure its better to hope to hit another land for the turn 3 or hope I survive till 4 with no disruption than mull down to five. Luckily he has a slow start with double vials while I curve Growth into RIP and a second growth into turn 3 win while he's durdling around with his vials.

Sideboard: same

He mulls down to five while I keep a good hand of Karakas, forest x 2, growth, enchantress, presence, sanctum. He goes fetch plateau into turn one vial while I play growth he doesn't have a second land but puts down another vial. I expect the lacky from vial but he's got nothing. I play karakas get an enchantress down while I draw another growth and play it out drawing Sigil. He vials in Thalia and passes. I bounce Thalia playing sanctum into presence and a grass. His turn he vials in Warchief pays to attack and swings in and vials Thalia in again. I let grass die bounce Thalia again draw into a Grove and play Sigil into Grove. On his turn he attempts to Wear//Tear my Sigil in response to a RIP and I remind him that I have Grove so he hits that instead. He drops some more gobs with Vials and hits me for a good amount. My turn I play Solitary and Grove then Hardcast Iona on White to shut down his Wear//Tear. He plays some more Goblins and I swing in next turn for game.

Round 3:
2-0 vs Burn

He starts things of with mountain go. So I think I'm against goblins again. I lay down forest into Growth. He EOT bolts me, untaps and plays Keldon Marauders. I play Enchantress into growth and pass. He plays Hellspark Elemental and swings with both I block the Marauders and take three. I play Sanctum then a Presence and go for Solitary with a RIP and another Presence in hand. He untaps plays a mountain and passes back. I play the Presence and the RIP drawing Helm. He passes the turn after no plays and I Helm him out.

Sideboard:
-1 Emrakul -1 Sigil of the Empty Throne -1 Green Sun's Zenith -1 Sterling Grove -1 Runed Halo
+2 Leyline of Sanctity +1 Iona +1 Seal of Primordium

He goes mountain into lava spike. I go Savannah into growth and pass. He puts a Pyrostatic Pillar down and passes. I look at it and sigh. I draw play a Presence and a forest. He plays a land and bolts me. I draw my one Runed Halo I have left in my deck and name Pillar, in response to it he bolts me. He draws plays a land and passes. I put down Confinement into a RIP and pass. He plays land and sends it back. I play some enchantments and naturally draw Helm for the win.

Round 4:
0-2 vs Reanimator

I keep a strong hand of double RIP and Helm with a Sanctum. He wins the die roll and goes fetch pass. I play land into Growth and pass back. He entombs Inkwell EOT and exhumes it on his turn. I play plains and attempt to RIP and it meets a Force pitching a Force. He crash's in plays a land and passes. I attempt my second RIP and it sticks play the Sanctum and pass back. He plays land and attacks and passes. At this point I feel its safe to go for Helm he has two cards and I have enough to pay for spell pierce and another turn before I die to Leviathan, he has the third Force and a blue card to shut me down and I draw land on the following turn.

Sideboard:
-1 Green Sun's Zenith -2 Sterling Grove -1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
+1 Platinum Angel +1 Iona +1 City of Solitude +1 Seal of Primordium

On the play I mull down to 6 cards and lead forest go. He goes Underground Sea into cantrip. My turn I attempt RIP and it meets a Force. He plays another cantrip and passes with one mana up. I play a forest into Enchantress and a Growth. He entombs Griselbrand EOT and reanimates it. I draw play land and play an Elephant Grass finding nothing but lands. We both continue to draw and play lands until he entombs for an Iona on white and I'm out of the game.

Round 5:
0-2 vs Shardless

Going into the round I'm a little on tilt for loosing to a good matchup. I win the die roll and go forest pass. He starts of with a Deathrite Shaman and passes it back to me. I pay out an Argothian Enchantress and end the turn. He has the turn 2 Liliana and makes me sac my creature. I draw and play an enchantress presence. He thoughtsiezes my Confinement plays a Shardless Agent into an Abrupt Decay on my presence. I draw nothing while he gets another deathrite a Goyf and a tar pit online.

Sideboard:
-1 Green Sun's Zenith -1 Runed Halo -1 Elephant Grass
+1 City of Solitude +1 Karmic Justice +1 Wrath of God

I have to mull down to 5 because of no land hands. He has every counterspell under the sun as I cant get anything to stick and he quickly gets there with Goyfs.

Round 6:
2-0 vs Lands

On the play I lead forest into Growth. He goes land into Exploration into Cabal Therapy naming Argothian Enchantress, which I have two of in hand. My turn two I go plains into a Presence and pass it back. He goes land into double Raven's Crime. My turn I sink a RIP and a Grove and pass it back. He draws plays a land and passes. I Play an Enchantress and cantrip with Growths. His turn he draws and slams an Engineered Explosives on two to send me back to the stone age. My turn I draw another RIP play it and draw Tutor. He plays another land and passes. I tutor on his end step for Helm and Helm him on my turn.

Sideboard:
-2 Elephant Grass -1 Sphere of Safety -1 Green Sun's Zenith
+1 Platinum Angel +1 Aura of Silence +1 Seal of Primordium

I keep a weakfish hand but I have Angel in it and I really wanted to test it out. He leads land into Exploration into Port and I immediately don't like where this is going. I play a land and growth it and pass it back. He plays a Dark Confidant and passes it back to me. I play a plains an Enchantress then Growth my plains. He attacks for 2 with his Dark Confidant and plays another Exploration and a Crucible of Worlds. I play a RIP and a Grove and pass it back. He attacks drops explosives for 2 and blows it. I draw and play a Presence. He drops an Oblivion Stone on his turn with enough mana to activate it. On my turn I draw Aura of Silence, cast it and attempt to blow up O stone which he cracks in response. I get down another Enchantress and some more growths while he plays more lands. I finally get enough mana to cast my Angel and he just sighs and says I don't have a way to beat that.

Round 7:
2-1 vs Elves

This match was mostly a blur as I hadn't eaten all day. I remember getting crushed game one with a board full of Green mana and enchantress's with only white spells in hand. The other two games I almost punted but his deck durdled enough on him and let me squeak out some wins, with the help of a well timed Wrath of God.

Round 8:
0-2 vs Canadian Thresh

I mull down to 4 game one and see no lands in any of my hands. He leads with Gitaxian Probe and I scoop in response.

Sideboard:
-1 Green Sun's Zenith -1 Sterling Grove
+1 City of Solitude

Game two is a repeat of game one except the first land I get gets Wastelanded and all of my enchantments get countered

Round 9:
2-0 vs ANT

Figuring I made it all this way I might as well play the last round. My opponent wins the die roll and spends the first few turns cantriping. I set up a Confinement with only one Enchantress in play and it draws me into a presence which lets me continue the lock on him until I draw Helm/RIP.

Sideboard:
-2 Sterling Grove -3 Elephant Grass -1 Sphere of Safety -1 Sigil of the Empty Throne -1Emrakul
+2 Iona +1 Platinum Angel +3 Mindbreak Trap +2 Leyline of Sanctity

My opening seven has Leyline into turn two Sterling grove. Snap keep. He mulls down to 5 cards. I put Leyline in play. On his turn one he Chain of Vapors it and uses a petal to Therapy it out of my hand. I play an enchantress and pass. He plays a land and starts cantriping for a few turns. I set up some more enchantments including a Runed Halo on Tendrils. I eventually sink Platinum angle and start crashing in. Until I naturally draw Helm RIP and get there.

All in all I really like the deck. I've made some slight changes to it and its running even better. I cut the second zenith as it kept clogging up my hand and was really bad when I already had my enchantress's out. The second savannah had no place in the deck so I ended up cutting it for the fourth Windswept Heath. The board is still in development but currently I added the Lignify back and cut the Stony Silence for the second Wrath of God. My current list is:

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Rest in Peace
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

2 Helm of Obedience

1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Enlightened Tutor

7 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
1 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Platinum Angel
2 Wrath of God
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Karmic Justice
1 Lignify
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Primordium
1 City of Solitude

Any questions or comments feel free to ask

[SovietOlga]

Congrats and great report Crim!

I have a few questions regarding your list; I noticed that you're playing with a playset of Elephant Grass as well as Sterling Grove. Do you feel these cards/ quantities of them are essential to your win percentages? Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the grass, as I feel legacy right now isn't all that creature heavy and for those who are I feel that the Solitary Confinement and/or Sphere of Safety does the job. I feel that Sterling Grove is needed against Abrupt Decay, but is 4 essential? What are your matchups vs Storm or Show N Tell like?

Further more; I'm a little curious about your sideboard choices, what does Iona and Platinum Angel do for this deck? Same goes with the Lignify and Karmic Guide. Also, why did you chose to use only two copies of Leyline of Sanctity?

[Freggle]

Report

I echo Soviet's questions. This decks hardest match-ups are control and combo, and your choices seem intriguing to me.

As I suspected your report has got the wheels turning again. Our deck get beat from the hand (as opposed to the board) so I have been overhauling the list a bit to incorporate some tech that btm10 has been talking about over in the traditional enchantress (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5302-Deck-Solitaire-(Enchantress)/page173) thread. Discard.

I don't feel comfortable posting this experimental list as of yet, but (as of now) the main is relatively untouched, but the SB is completely overhauled. It's too early to tell, but being more aggressive is rarely a bad idea.

Furthermore, has anyone tested Gitaxian Probe or Manamorphose as thinners? These cards can possibly support a (loosely used here) "transformational board." i.e. get more value out of non-enchantment sideboard slots as a product of deck thinning.

[Crim]

Congrats and great report Crim!

I have a few questions regarding your list; I noticed that you're playing with a playset of Elephant Grass as well as Sterling Grove. Do you feel these cards/ quantities of them are essential to your win percentages? Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the grass, as I feel legacy right now isn't all that creature heavy and for those who are I feel that the Solitary Confinement and/or Sphere of Safety does the job. I feel that Sterling Grove is needed against Abrupt Decay, but is 4 essential? What are your matchups vs Storm or Show N Tell like?

Further more; I'm a little curious about your sideboard choices, what does Iona and Platinum Angel do for this deck? Same goes with the Lignify and Karmic Guide. Also, why did you chose to use only two copies of Leyline of Sanctity?

The Elephant Grass is there as a remnant from the old prison list I used to run and I audibled to the deck before the tournament and didn't want to change to much from the old main. As far as liking it I think its really necessary against random bad decks I could have ran into in the first couple rounds as I didn't have any byes. It was a huge help when I ran it before and makes dredge an auto win, and is pretty good against merfolk which I was expecting to see in force. I might try a Mirri's Guile over one of them in the future but for now I like having the four. Sterling Grove is huge against Decay and really good after board as everyone brings in some enchantment destruction, and helps keep the Solitary lock up if I need to and allow me to keep my chain going.

Omnitell isn't to bad of a matchup as the sideboard Iona's actually just lock them out of the game and they are not unreasonable to hardcast them. Sneaky Show isn't to bad (with the help of the Grasses) I feel it's a pretty even match up If they have the Show and Tell into Sneak Attack then its not to good for me but if they only have one or the other I'm not too scared. Storm is interesting, in my area not to many people play it. If they do it's usually ANT and not Epic Storm or Belcher. I didn't think to many people would be on storm because most of the top decks right now are pretty good against it, and I was expecting a lot of True Name decks which prey on storm. I'm usually not to scared of the match-up because of the Leylines and Mindbreaks.

The sideboard is a little strange on paper but works pretty well. I don't like the Leylines to much against a lot of decks. I might go up to a third but not the full set. I just feel they take away to much space in the board and I had a hard enough time cutting cards to put in 2 of them I don't know what I would board out if I wanted to put more in. The Iona's are good against Omnitell like I said and also hoses a lot of decks if you can resolve it. Her mana cost isn't too unreasonable to get to. I used to run her as a one of in the board but I wanted to try out two of her to help my Omni matchup even more. Lignify is mostly there as an answer to opposing Iona's from the Reanimator matchup as they are always going to name white with her so I want a non-white answer to her. Karmic Guide is actually supposed to be Karmic Justice. The Platinum Angel was an interesting choice. I really like it post board against almost every deck as they will take out all their creature removal. It still gets hit by Krosan Grip but usually they'll snap that off at one of my enchantments. It basically comes down to decks not having an answer to it post board and having it steal games if I don't have a Solitary lock going. It's a card I'm probably going to keep in and try it out more before I think about cutting it.

Right now theirs a few cards that I want to try out in the board. Right now I'm thinking about playing Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in the spot of one of the wraths and another Karmic Justice. Maybe even another City of Solitude. Sun Titan was something I thought of running for a while but since I switched to the RIP version it's not really an option anymore, but I might try it again if I can play around my own RIP. Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger is something I thought about as well. Sigarda is something I ran for a long time as a one of and I was pretty happy with her. I just feel like Zenith is a necessary card but its versatility is almost wasted on this deck and the sideboard is a good spot to experiment with it.

[Cabs]

Hi guys

I recently built this deck and have managed to get some games against Death and Taxes. Is this just a horrendous matchup? Between Thalia and Port I could never play more than one spell a turn. Flickerwisp on my double enchanted Forest was not nice. The one game where I managed to get the engine going he had Mirran Crusader with a Jitte on it and killed me the turn before I would have drawn the Sanctum to lay Confinement. One game I had RiP and Helm in hand against his Thalia and Mangara board. I only had access to 5 mana so could tap-out to cast the Helm but it would then be exiled by the Mangara on his turn. How do you guys beat D&T? Anything obvious from the sideboard etc?

Did I just pick a bad matchup to test first? I don't want to abandon the deck straight away :(

Cheers,
Ben

[Freggle]

Hi guys

I recently built this deck and have managed to get some games against Death and Taxes. Is this just a horrendous matchup? Between Thalia and Port I could never play more than one spell a turn. Flickerwisp on my double enchanted Forest was not nice. The one game where I managed to get the engine going he had Mirran Crusader with a Jitte on it and killed me the turn before I would have drawn the Sanctum to lay Confinement. One game I had RiP and Helm in hand against his Thalia and Mangara board. I only had access to 5 mana so could tap-out to cast the Helm but it would then be exiled by the Mangara on his turn. How do you guys beat D&T? Anything obvious from the sideboard etc?

Did I just pick a bad matchup to test first? I don't want to abandon the deck straight away :(

Cheers,
Ben

Welcome Ben!

Death and Taxes is just about a dead even MU, but it's highly dependent on which list you built. You need basics, and lots of them.

Generally you want to spread your growth effects over multiple lands (to dodge Port, Vindicate...)

Karakas can also do a lot of work here bouncing Thalia (if need be) or a summoning sick Mangara. You should also really bring in a lot of O-rings from the board. ...This is a double edged sword because of Mom, but it's a necessary evil.

If you do all of these things and play tight it shakes out to who just top decks better.

On a different subject I'm trying a version with Gitaxian Probe and Manamorphose on MTGO the last day, and I really have to say I like the way it feels. Probe is an amazing card, and the perfect information certainly helps playing around Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Daze, ...or knowing when to lead with a RIP or an enchantress (combo.) I'm still tweaking it, but it feels like the sports car version of this deck. More agile and rewards stronger play.

Lastly, for what it is worth I have decided to try and come out of painting retirement of (10ish years) and paint a banner / playmat for this deck. Still needs a lot of work but you can see it progress here. (http://s806.photobucket.com/user/freggle1/media/1459710_10100306066059812_1352229116_n_zpsa44b91f2.jpg.html?filters[user]=138368943&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0) No guarantees if and when I will finish it though. ...there is a lot of cards to be flung, and a lot of life to be lived too.

[btm10]

Hi guys

I recently built this deck and have managed to get some games against Death and Taxes. Is this just a horrendous matchup? Between Thalia and Port I could never play more than one spell a turn. Flickerwisp on my double enchanted Forest was not nice. The one game where I managed to get the engine going he had Mirran Crusader with a Jitte on it and killed me the turn before I would have drawn the Sanctum to lay Confinement. One game I had RiP and Helm in hand against his Thalia and Mangara board. I only had access to 5 mana so could tap-out to cast the Helm but it would then be exiled by the Mangara on his turn. How do you guys beat D&T? Anything obvious from the sideboard etc?

Did I just pick a bad matchup to test first? I don't want to abandon the deck straight away :(

Cheers,
Ben

With Sprawl, you can splash off-color cards for the board. I run 1-2 Dread of Night in the board of my traditional Enchantress deck depending on how much D&T I'm expecting. You can also go to running a singleton basic swamp instead of Scrubland or Bayou as a fetch target and am running 3 Heath/2 Catacombs or Marsh Flats (or something like that) as the fetch package to better work around their stuff. Dread absolutely has to be removed or they can't win, and they can't use Mangara to do it. It's an absolute house in that matchup.

[Freggle]

With Sprawl, you can splash off-color cards for the board. I run 1-2 Dread of Night in the board of my traditional Enchantress deck depending on how much D&T I'm expecting. You can also go to running a singleton basic swamp instead of Scrubland or Bayou as a fetch target and am running 3 Heath/2 Catacombs or Marsh Flats (or something like that) as the fetch package to better work around their stuff. Dread absolutely has to be removed or they can't win, and they can't use Mangara to do it. It's an absolute house in that matchup.

That is fairly sweet tech. Do you have similar tricks for combo?

It has been a while since I wrote in here. I have been testing a fair amount of things in preparation for SCG Orlando. I will likely play this, but I have noodling around with a Attunement / Replenish build that has a lot of raw power to it that I MAY switch to for this tournament, again may.

If I can figure out a better plan for combo and or control I will ride this one though. I have gone to (3) Probe Main, and have replaced Sigil with Emrakul to give the deck more inevitability.

Probe has been fantastic, the information has most certainly won me many games / matches.

Has anyone else bee playing this as of late, and have anything new to share. I'm looking to take the best build I can.

-Freggle

[Freggle]

I think I may have just stumbled on a major breakthrough for this deck. A real eureka momnet. Actually it is the cards Eureka.

At first I thought it could be a decent sideboard strategy to be faster than combo dropping in a fattie, but now I'm seeing it has quite a bit of mainboard potential as well.

I just won a game T3 Probe saw it was clear Eureka - > RIP / Helm + land. This can also drop in the now main Emrakul.

Additionally, now we don't have to discard those fistfuls of cards when we run out of mana digging. We just drop them all into play (including all lands) and just keep on going.

This strategy can be scaled up or down out of the board depending on the effectiveness against your respective opponents.

Lets get tuning, this may be a tier break through.

Kinda Exciting.

[Mr. Froggy]

I'm not sure I feel Eureka too much, test it and tell us how it goes!

[btm10]

That is fairly sweet tech. Do you have similar tricks for combo?

It has been a while since I wrote in here. I have been testing a fair amount of things in preparation for SCG Orlando. I will likely play this, but I have noodling around with a Attunement / Replenish build that has a lot of raw power to it that I MAY switch to for this tournament, again may.

If I can figure out a better plan for combo and or control I will ride this one though. I have gone to (3) Probe Main, and have replaced Sigil with Emrakul to give the deck more inevitability.

Probe has been fantastic, the information has most certainly won me many games / matches.

Has anyone else bee playing this as of late, and have anything new to share. I'm looking to take the best build I can.

-Freggle

I've continued to run 1x Dread in my WGu sideboard. It makes Abundant Growth more important (I'm on the fence about going up to 2 MD), but if you're playing AG onto your second or third basic, you shouldn't need to fear the B-producing land getting Ported until you've already landed your black enchantments. Death and Taxes is a slightly worse matchup for WGu than for WGb (you need the third color more and Gitaxian Probe doesn't serve the spot-removal role that Thoughtseize does, and Dread becomes a tougher needle to thread without a Swamp or Bayou).

WGu seems to be the best way to handle combo. I can't think of a 1-of enchantment in any color that can make WGb or WGr better against ANT and Omnitell, and adding 4 REB to the WGr build forces large MD manabase changes to make sure you have early access to R while not improving anything but Omnitell significantly. I still like Blind Obedience against Sneak and Show and Through the Breach/Sneak Attack decks, but In the Eye of Chaos is comically good against combo. It isn't great with Force and Mindbreak Trap, but even without Grove to protect it, most Omnitell players have to pay 6 to get rid of it even with Omniscience in play, and ANT/TES can't win through it at all. Resolving it is sometimes tricky, but it's not particularly challenging to drop on turn 3 or turn 2 in the matchups where you need it (or your other protection will keep you alive until you can cast it), and you have your own countermagic to protect it postboard.



I think I may have just stumbled on a major breakthrough for this deck. A real eureka momnet. Actually it is the cards Eureka.

At first I thought it could be a decent sideboard strategy to be faster than combo dropping in a fattie, but now I'm seeing it has quite a bit of mainboard potential as well.

I just won a game T3 Probe saw it was clear Eureka - > RIP / Helm + land. This can also drop in the now main Emrakul.

Additionally, now we don't have to discard those fistfuls of cards when we run out of mana digging. We just drop them all into play (including all lands) and just keep on going.

This strategy can be scaled up or down out of the board depending on the effectiveness against your respective opponents.

Lets get tuning, this may be a tier break through.

Kinda Exciting.

I've been spending my testing time on GWu lately (see the other thread for the results), but I'm definitely interested in seeing a Eureka-containing list, even a preliminary one. I might go to SCG Indy or SCG Columbus so I'm also in a tuning mood. I was initially skeptical and then I realized that Eureka says "2GG: Empty your hand onto the board". Are you running any protection beyond Probe? It seems like GWu would actually work well with cards like Ancestral Knowledge for tutoring and to give access to Force for protecting Eureka. I imagine that the core of the deck would undergo a significant shakeup to include Eureka and make it good, since it seems like Eureka would often leave you in topdeck mode and the enchantments played with it don't trigger enchantress. You probably wouldn't be able to lay Solitary Confinement with it, but other protection (Leyline of Sanctity, Sphere of Safety, RIP/Energy Field) would probably be even better in that situation. Or am I getting the flow wrong and it's mostly best with 4 RIP/2-3 Helm so you can "just win" for 3GG while getting more resilience to counterspells as well as a speed boost?

[Freggle]

I've continued to run 1x Dread in my WGu sideboard. It makes Abundant Growth more important (I'm on the fence about going up to 2 MD), but if you're playing AG onto your second or third basic, you shouldn't need to fear the B-producing land getting Ported until you've already landed your black enchantments. Death and Taxes is a slightly worse matchup for WGu than for WGb (you need the third color more and Gitaxian Probe doesn't serve the spot-removal role that Thoughtseize does, and Dread becomes a tougher needle to thread without a Swamp or Bayou).

WGu seems to be the best way to handle combo. I can't think of a 1-of enchantment in any color that can make WGb or WGr better against ANT and Omnitell, and adding 4 REB to the WGr build forces large MD manabase changes to make sure you have early access to R while not improving anything but Omnitell significantly. I still like Blind Obedience against Sneak and Show and Through the Breach/Sneak Attack decks, but In the Eye of Chaos is comically good against combo. It isn't great with Force and Mindbreak Trap, but even without Grove to protect it, most Omnitell players have to pay 6 to get rid of it even with Omniscience in play, and ANT/TES can't win through it at all. Resolving it is sometimes tricky, but it's not particularly challenging to drop on turn 3 or turn 2 in the matchups where you need it (or your other protection will keep you alive until you can cast it), and you have your own countermagic to protect it postboard.




I've been spending my testing time on GWu lately (see the other thread for the results), but I'm definitely interested in seeing a Eureka-containing list, even a preliminary one. I might go to SCG Indy or SCG Columbus so I'm also in a tuning mood. I was initially skeptical and then I realized that Eureka says "2GG: Empty your hand onto the board". Are you running any protection beyond Probe? It seems like GWu would actually work well with cards like Ancestral Knowledge for tutoring and to give access to Force for protecting Eureka. I imagine that the core of the deck would undergo a significant shakeup to include Eureka and make it good, since it seems like Eureka would often leave you in topdeck mode and the enchantments played with it don't trigger enchantress. You probably wouldn't be able to lay Solitary Confinement with it, but other protection (Leyline of Sanctity, Sphere of Safety, RIP/Energy Field) would probably be even better in that situation. Or am I getting the flow wrong and it's mostly best with 4 RIP/2-3 Helm so you can "just win" for 3GG while getting more resilience to counterspells as well as a speed boost?

I put the Eureaka Testing on hold for now. It is good, but a different deck with O rings main and maybe a Terrastadon in there for good measure. It was pulling the Helm list too far away from Helm.

I tested all day on MTGO tournament Practice with the list below. I wasn't keeping track, but I went somewhere in the area of 12-3 today.

Losses were to Reanimator, Something (I forget) and Stoneblade (I ran out of time when my laptop battery died and I couldn't click through all the triggers to swing with the resolved Emrakul fast enough when it came up)

The list is solid, but needs improvement. Emrakul has now certainly replaced Sigil of the Empty Throne as the secondary win condition.

Most of my wins today were with Emrakul, and I wasn't trying to do so. The earliest Emrakul kill I had was turn 4.

Some of the cuts I made may be a point of discussion, but I wanted to try Manamorphose main as a means to run a full color board and thin without hurting the solid mana base.

Here is the list:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
2 Abundant Growth
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Manamorphose
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Elephant Grass
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Helm of Obedince
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Rest In Peace
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Serra's Sanctum
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath

Board
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

The discard out of the board was marginal at best. Had it been Mindbreak Trap it would have worked better except for 1 game when duress nabbed Sneak Attack to get me the turn to win the game. ...however Gaddock may have helped there.

I will test in the relatively near future in the combo hate slots.

Chalice of the Void
In the Eye of Chaos

...I'll post a rough draft of Eureka later when I can load it up easier. It is loads of fun.

[btm10]

Since I haven't tested this, I have more questions than comments:

1. Are you having problems getting enough white mana with only 2 non-Sanctum sources (only 1 of which is fetchable), or are fetches/sprawl/abundant growth covering you well enough?

2. If Emrakul is the de facto primary win condition, should you look for room for the 4th GSZ and for an answer to Karakas? Suppression Field, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, and Pithing Needle seem like the best sideboard options to answer it

3. Continuing from question 2, do you want a more explosive manabase? Enchatress is one of the few shells that can produce lots of mana very quickly, which is one of its few remaining upsides. If you're going with the Emrakul plan (which seems to be working), is it worth testing Mana Flare-type effects? Heartbeat of Spring, Vernal Bloom, and Mirari's Wake are on-color, while splashing gives Overabundance and the classic Mana Flare. Other potential options would be Exploration, Gaea's Touch, or Squandered Resources. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx also seems like it might be worth testing as explosive lands 5-6.

[Freggle]

Since I haven't tested this, I have more questions than comments:

1. Are you having problems getting enough white mana with only 2 non-Sanctum sources (only 1 of which is fetchable), or are fetches/sprawl/abundant growth covering you well enough?

No. No issues. Your forgetting that there are a good deal of cantrips, and Mirri's Guile to help color you up. ...additionally as of late there is also Manamorphose, but I never used it to get white. I typically actually convert Sanctum mana to Green.


2. If Emrakul is the de facto primary win condition, should you look for room for the 4th GSZ and for an answer to Karakas? Suppression Field, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, and Pithing Needle seem like the best sideboard options to answer it

Maybe the 4th GSZ, but you don't care about opponents Karakas's. I feel the 4th GSZ may be correct because enchantress's are good, but it also helps combo if you run the Gaddock Teeg. If you Emrakul, and they Karakas and use it you you just get another turn as you cast it again. ...If you chained Sanctums and your short you still likely have a fistfull of cards to ramp to the correct amount that turn or helm, or completely lock out.


3. Continuing from question 2, do you want a more explosive manabase? Enchatress is one of the few shells that can produce lots of mana very quickly, which is one of its few remaining upsides. If you're going with the Emrakul plan (which seems to be working), is it worth testing Mana Flare-type effects? Heartbeat of Spring, Vernal Bloom, and Mirari's Wake are on-color, while splashing gives Overabundance and the classic Mana Flare. Other potential options would be Exploration, Gaea's Touch, or Squandered Resources. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx also seems like it might be worth testing as explosive lands 5-6.

No, you want a stable mana base. One of the best ways to disrupt this deck is disrupting the lands. I don't feel it's correct to give people more ways to do so.

I'm still looking for combo ideas if anyone has got some. ...I may test Urban Burgeoning and Silence / abeyance effects, but I really don't want to.

Edit:

Opps I only read a part of that. I wouldn't use more non-basic lands. The other excel (as long as it is not symetrical i.e. Exploration) to my surprise was quite good. I just nabbed a set of 3 Explorations in paper,and it does make the deck more explosive. I just haven't ran it throught the gauntlet of actual Legacy all that much where the disruption is very high. ...and Exploration is really a 2 card combo. ...it may have a home.

In other news I decided to do the daily becuase I knew a lot of my other nights were taken up this week, and I want to prepare for SCG Orlando. I ended up 3-1 in the combo conclave.

R1 - Sneak and Show 1-2 :( --Long road from here.

Never saw Show and Tell. Stole Game 2 with Gaddock Teeg before Sneak Attack came down. Game 3 it was a bombardment of counters. Honestly think I resolved 1 or 2 things all game till my opponent hit the mana needed to drop and sneak Emrakul my way. It was a very tight game it was his only 2 cards left in hand and he countered 1 or 2 GSZ headed for Teeg.

R2 - Belcher? 2-0

So it's not the best of decks. IT was a turn 1 5/5 hate dude coming at me. got down Confinement in time to win. Game 2 I brought in Stony Silence, and it was a champ freezing all that artifact mana so my opponent did absolutely nothing when I went infinite with Emrakul to close the game.

R3 - Opps all Blecher? 2-0

My opponent fizzled both games. Sanctity and Stoney to support

R4 - Merfolk 2-1

Normal Enchantress Stall getting the concessions.

[btm10]

Glad to see you did well there. Has the testing continued to be mostly positive?

Good luck in Orlando this weekend. I'm still deciding on my deck for Columbus, so I'm definitely interested in seeing how you so and what you use to do it.

[Freggle]

Glad to see you did well there. Has the testing continued to be mostly positive?

Good luck in Orlando this weekend. I'm still deciding on my deck for Columbus, so I'm definitely interested in seeing how you so and what you use to do it.

Mostly positive, but not all roses. I went to an LGS on this past Sun and did go 0-2 drop. That was disappointing.

R1 - Miracles 0-2

R2 - UWR Delever 0-2

It just wasn't my day. Good play, good players and good breaks (blind flips etc.)

Online still strong. No more dailies to report on but more tournament testing, and still a strong winning record.

I will play this at the StarCity and play tight, and like everyone just hope it is my day. The power level is there.

I will also review my randomization techniques. I don't know why I had such a different paper experience against the same lists in paper as opposed to online. ...sometimes it just happens though.

Edit: Played the daily tonight went 3-1

2-0 ANT

0-2 ANT

- ? --- Opponent Disconnect

2-0 -- BW Stoneblade goodstuff

[KazinMtg]

Congrats to Freggle for a solid finish at SCG Orlando, a feature match, and a Deck Tech!

For those who haven't seen it: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_enchantress_with_jef.html

[JankMaster]

How does this deck perform in the MODO metagame? I'm looking at finally investing in legacy cards online so I can play more legacy. I'm looking at playing Painted Stone or Enchantress. I would much rather play this deck but want to make sure I'm getting something competitive. Is time an issue online with this deck?

[TopWizard]

Congrats to Freggle on the deck tech AND the feature match. You made us all proud!

[Mr. Froggy]

Congrats Freggle! And also, its awesome to put faces to forum user names. :)

[Freggle]

Thank you everyone for your kind words. I really wanted to name drop on the deck tech, but I didn't want to leave anyone out so I opted not to put my foot in my mouth on that.

I was happy to come out of the gates running, but ultimately disappointed to not finish as strong. I'll write more later when I am less tired about the day and how I personally can improve, and what I felt was right and wrong with the list I registered.

...but for those wondering on match-up analysis here is the shorthand on how the day went.

Merfolk 2-1

LED / Looting Dredge 2-1

Jund (Chris in the top 8) 2-1

RUG 2-0

Back-up feature match Miracles 2-0 (

Ruben asks for a deck tech.

Feature: Death and Taxes 1-1

Burn 0-2 -- My good friend Jimmy paired up Awkward as it is a positive MU :)

Miracles 1-1 -- Serenity ( I should have likely scooped game 2 more on that for improvement)

Death and Taxes 0-2


How does this deck perform in the MODO metagame? I'm looking at finally investing in legacy cards online so I can play more legacy. I'm looking at playing Painted Stone or Enchantress. I would much rather play this deck but want to make sure I'm getting something competitive. Is time an issue online with this deck?

The modo game is an excellent training ground for this deck. It will help you better understand how all the triggers work, and how to maximize your play. This deck is very competitive IMO, but is not exactly easy to pilot in paper. Crafting the lines is pretty easy but managing a REL game state can be taxing. I have never gone 4-0 in the daily but I have 3-1'ed many. I haven't done the math, but I would imagine I'm positive on entrance fees to payouts as after initial investment I have rounded out the collection largely out of winnings.

If you would prefer to play this deck, then I would say please do. This is not to say that Imperial Painter isn't a solid deck. Kapt'n Cook can tell you all about how good Painter is online.

In the end I feel this deck is far easier to play online for the following reasons vs. paper.

The Chess clock is actually your friend. People will tank on you as the lines decks have to tilt to fight you are less intuitive. I truly feel in most matches were time mattered in paper this weekend I had personally used less of the clock. This could be perspective (as when you are doing something you don't notice the passing of time) but I don't thinks so. the only matches where I lost online due to time where games where I was knocked offline for some unforeseen connection issue.

You will not miss triggers. The onus is on you to announce everything... EVERYTHING in paper. This will slow you down, or could trip you up. This is also where MODO will help you understand how to sequence this correctly, and it will do a lot of the work for you. On camera I missed some draw triggers because the judge asked me what color was the Utopia Sprawl while I tanked on my line a bit. I told him Green. This meant that my utopia sprawl resolved (as the color is named on resolution) and the draw occur before the resolution. I tried to denote the stack was behind the lands and the when I would place it on the battlefield that it was resolution, but I didn't then. The call was deserved given the information I had provided even though my wheels were turning on how to use the top two cards to their maximum ( I knew what they were off of Guile.)

MTGO shuffles for you. That is a lot of time right there.

Helm is fast, but slower than painter by and large.


...and lastly the chess clock will get a lot more concessions as your opponents are trying to preserve their time once you have them under lock. If you do play it I would be happy to help with any questions you may have.

Also, on MTGO in general. Buying and selling cards online is super easy and can be done 24-7. Even if you do buy in and you do not feel the deck is for you then you can sell it to a vender for only approx 10% loss. For this deck I think that is roughly $20 tithe to try it out and see for yourself.

P.S. The Source playmat was a hit at the event. It does look sweet.

[Freggle]

Just wanted to note that Darers 3-1'ed the daily yesterday (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdigital%2Fmagiconline%2Ftourn%2F6591910) with Helm-Chant-Rest.

Daeres if you are out there I would be interested in knowing what you thought was strong or weak, and what you were looking to fight swapping the Surgical Extraction in the board to Aura of Silence.

[SovietOlga]

Congrats once again Freggle!

I have a suggestion regarding the mana base; what is the reasoning on running only 4 fetchlands in the current meta? The popularity of Stifle has decreased as of lately with only one deck playing a full playset. This card only exists in RUG Delver builds, the other incarnations of delver opt out on the card. I suggest that you try out an additional 2-4 green-based fetches. Not only does this thin out your deck, but it also allows you to take more advantage of Mirri's Guile triggers, allowing a Sensei's Divining Top-esque feeling. Now, when you have 2 Mirri's Guile's out you are now able to take full advantage of the double trigger's; you are able to look at the 3 cards, then if you don't like what you see, you crack your fetchland in response to the second trigger of Mirri's Guile, which allows you to see an additional 3 cards to manipulate.

I play the same list as you, however, this is my current manabase:

5 Forest
1 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest

Thoughts?

[Freggle]

Congrats once again Freggle!

I have a suggestion regarding the mana base; what is the reasoning on running only 4 fetchlands in the current meta? The popularity of Stifle has decreased as of lately with only one deck playing a full playset. This card only exists in RUG Delver builds, the other incarnations of delver opt out on the card. I suggest that you try out an additional 2-4 green-based fetches. Not only does this thin out your deck, but it also allows you to take more advantage of Mirri's Guile triggers, allowing a Sensei's Divining Top-esque feeling. Now, when you have 2 Mirri's Guile's out you are now able to take full advantage of the double trigger's; you are able to look at the 3 cards, then if you don't like what you see, you crack your fetchland in response to the second trigger of Mirri's Guile, which allows you to see an additional 3 cards to manipulate.

I play the same list as you, however, this is my current manabase:

5 Forest
1 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest

Thoughts?

When you reach the point of the game where you have (2) Mirri's Guile out your draw should invalidate the card selection. As you draw the top and draw past the next 2.

Can more shuffles help the deck? At times yes, but you have to be mindful that there is more than just Stifle that can affect the number of fetches we want to run.

The next two on the top of my head are Blood Moon and Aven Mindcensor. There is also the fact that we would be doing more incidental damage to ourselves making the fast damage decks sleigh / burn that much more tough to beat.

That is not to say 4 is perfect, but I wouldn't go as high as 8. My max would likely top out at 5.

I do think (2) Karakas is correct right now. Other than that it looks great your choice to push the Sanctum's to 4 has really helped this deck.

[RiverCake]

Hey I have build the deck two weeks ago and switched 1 Mirri's and 2 Abundant Growth with 3 Exploration (http://magiccards.info/us/en/250.html) what do you say to the idea?

[Freggle]

Hey I have build the deck two weeks ago and switched 1 Mirri's and 2 Abundant Growth with 3 Exploration (http://magiccards.info/us/en/250.html) what do you say to the idea?

You can cut the Abundant Growths to zero, but I wouldn't cut the Guile.

As for adding Exploration I've tested it, and it does make the deck more explosive when you are winning, but it really is a 3 card combo. Exploration plus 2 lands to get value out of it. It can play out in your favor, but overall Guile will be better.

If I were to run Exploration it would be a 2 of tops having more than that in play is overkill as you can draw your whole deck fairly easily without any of them. I'll try and write a better primer this week, and as suggested in the Enchantress thread try my hand at streaming later this week to show how I play it.

[RiverCake]

You can cut the Abundant Growths to zero, but I wouldn't cut the Guile.

As for adding Exploration I've tested it, and it does make the deck more explosive when you are winning, but it really is a 3 card combo. Exploration plus 2 lands to get value out of it. It can play out in your favor, but overall Guile will be better.

If I were to run Exploration it would be a 2 of tops having more than that in play is overkill as you can draw your whole deck fairly easily without any of them. I'll try and write a better primer this week, and as suggested in the Enchantress thread try my hand at streaming later this week to show how I play it.

Thanks for the fast answer i think i will cut the one Exploration agine and play with 3 Mirri's. :)
I have a real problem with the tempo meta I play in. Im the only one who has so much trouble with tempo like BUG /RUG ?

[btm10]

Tempo can be tough, but Elephant Grass is really great against it. They're intrinsically mana light, so you slow them down a lot if they want to attack, and you aren't losing if they aren't swinging. And since you're running multiples of Rest in Peace, that should turn off both Goyf and DRS.

[Rogan]

What would you guys say your best answer is to a turn 1 Chalice of the Void on 1? It seems pretty difficult to dig yourself out of that.

[btm10]

Not really. As long as you've got the Mana to get an Enchantress effect online by turn 3, you'll do fine. Remember that Chalice counters the spell rather than stopping you from playing it, so you can still cast Guile or Wild Growth into Chalice at 1 to draw. Against MUD, I usually save my removal for their Metalworkers and wincons, since their threats are solveable with Sphere.

[RiverCake]

What do you guys think is the best storm combo hate ?
The Leylines can be bounce easily :/

[Freggle]

@ RUG – IMHO this match-up has gotten significantly better over the more recent builds that re-include Elephant Grass. I consider this match positive with GW helm now. As btm10 has stated just play the game they give you. If they don’t drop a T1 threat assume stifle. If they to play a T1 threat be sure to use your fetch. ….even when you are getting beat down by a Delver take your time to play around Daze and Pierce so long you can afford it, and you’ll be fine. Post board Carpet of Flowers makes being patient that much easier, and forces the RUG player to either drop lands and play into Carpet or just get tempo-ed by E. Grass.


@Chalice for 1 – btm10 hit the main points. You draw on cast and it doesn’t hit GSZ, Presence, or Argothian. It really isn’t anything much more than a nuisance most of the time.


@Storm – Latest builds got this match roughly even if not ever so slightly positive post board. It’s a combo of Gaddock, Solitary, Stony Silence, Leyline, RIP, Sterling that overloads their bounce. Game 1 is a race to confinement which can be hit and sustained as early as turn 3 and with uber good draws turn 2.

[RiverCake]

I will try Porphyry Node (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/28.html) as a Sideboard option.
Did someone tried it?

[nedleeds]

What do you guys think is the best storm combo hate ?
The Leylines can be bounce easily :/

Maybe they'll print something to give your enchantments shroud. One can always hope!

[RiverCake]

Maybe they'll print something to give your enchantments shroud. One can always hope!

Sterling Grove ;)

[Mr. Froggy]

Sterling Grove ;)

I think nedleeds was being sarcastic. ;)

[Freggle]

Maybe they'll print something to give your enchantments shroud. One can always hope!

Sterling Grove ;)

...or two. Greater Auramancy.


...but honestly you are better off attacking Storm from another angle as opposed to trying to shroud Leyline. As many times Storm will just Ad Nauseam into Past in Flames to double or even quadruple bounce FTW.

This is why Gaddock Teeg is so good even though he shuts off future Green Sun's and Helm.

[Muffinman]

Hey, just wanted to ask you what you think about this list, which I am contemplating.
Know that this list is very geared towards my local meta (Which is why I decided to have Leylines in the MD. Planning to board them out in the matchups where I don't need them rather than the other way around. I estimate that I will indeed need them about 75% of the matches.) What do you think about this list then with that in mind?

MD:
1 karakas
2 serra's sanctum
2 windswept heath
1 savannah
7 forest
1 plains
4 misty rainforest
1 island
3 mirri's guile
1 oblivion ring
2 sterling grove
2 solitary confinement
4 leyline of sanctity
3 rest in peace
1 wheel of sun and moon
3 elephant grass
3 energy field
1 sigil of the empty throne
3 wild growth
4 utopia sprawl
4 enchantress's presence
1 green sun's zenith
1 helm of obedience
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 argothian enchantress

SB:
1 equipoise
1 sterling grove
2 carpet of flowers
1 rest in peace
1 seal of primordium
1 gaddock teeg
1 krosan grip
3 mindbreak trap
1 detention sphere
1 humility
1 elephant grass
1 stony silence

[Freggle]

Hey, just wanted to ask you what you think about this list, which I am contemplating.
Know that this list is very geared towards my local meta (Which is why I decided to have Leylines in the MD. Planning to board them out in the matchups where I don't need them rather than the other way around. I estimate that I will indeed need them about 75% of the matches.) What do you think about this list then with that in mind?

MD:
1 karakas
2 serra's sanctum
2 windswept heath
1 savannah
7 forest
1 plains
4 misty rainforest
1 island
3 mirri's guile
1 oblivion ring
2 sterling grove
2 solitary confinement
4 leyline of sanctity
3 rest in peace
1 wheel of sun and moon
3 elephant grass
3 energy field
1 sigil of the empty throne
3 wild growth
4 utopia sprawl
4 enchantress's presence
1 green sun's zenith
1 helm of obedience
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 argothian enchantress

SB:
1 equipoise
1 sterling grove
2 carpet of flowers
1 rest in peace
1 seal of primordium
1 gaddock teeg
1 krosan grip
3 mindbreak trap
1 detention sphere
1 humility
1 elephant grass
1 stony silence


There are some narrow cards in your list and without knowing your general meta it's hard for me to comment.

In other news I did my first test stream tonight. http://www.twitch.tv/forbiddengrove

I'll try and fire it up again tomorrow night before I'm out of town for a week. Hope to see you all there.

[Rogan]

@ RUG @Chalice for 1 – btm10 hit the main points. You draw on cast and it doesn’t hit GSZ, Presence, or Argothian. It really isn’t anything much more than a nuisance most of the time.

Isn't GSZ's CMC 1?

[octavius.lyra]

hey guys, so here is my current list I’ve been testing. I’ve been slowly working on this deck this last year or so (quietly lurking), originally from a classic enchantress build, but I honestly believe that this particular build is most sound over other enchantress variants.

By no mean’s am I an expert at this deck, but I do quite like to play it. Many of the lists and comments here have been extremely valuable. I’ve tried a few of lists from this and the original solitaire thread and this is my middle of the road interpretation of my primary helm-chant-rest lists.
I haven’t played any tournaments with this list yet (soon once I feel confident with the build) but in casual games it seems to work reasonably well and when practicing against goldfish can usually manage a t3-t4 solitary lock, t4-t5 helm kill. I feel a tad self conscious of where this particular list is so any feedback before I go embarrass myself in public is appreciated.
I would really love to see this deck reach a consistent optimized form that we can discuss as a concrete thing that addresses the vast majority of the meta. I still feel like I’m constantly rebuilding this list and it still has not settled into an optimal orientation.

The first 45 cards are relatively set, for me.Most the variance seems to be in the last 15 cards of what was formerly the enchantress’s toolbox.
I’m still searching for the way to make it more explosive and faster…
Apologies in advance for any typos.

Mana Base (20)

8 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
4 windswept heath
4 serra’s sanctum
2 forbidden orchard

The engine (12)

4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress presence
3 Green sun zenith
1 Defense of the heart

Accelerants (13)
4 utopian sprawl
3 Wild growth
4 mirri’s guile
2 exploration

The “helm” (10)
1 Emrakul, the eons torn
2 Helm of obedience
3 rest in peace
3 solitary confinement
1 karmic justice

Flex Slots/toolbox (5)
1 oblivion ring
2 multani’s presence
1 sphere of saftey
1 enlightened tutor
1 Sigarda host of herons

Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of silence
2 elephant grass
2 oblivion ring
2 in the eye of chaos
1 wheel of sun and moon
3 abeyance
2 orim’s chant
1 gaddock teig


Noteworthy design features compared to other common lists

-1 green sun Zenith +1 Defense of the heart – I’ve been trying this lately and I quite like it, Usually GSZ ends up being a 3cmc so they can occupy a similar space, Defense of the heart can be amazing when it triggers and can be triggered off forbidden orchard which acts as a nice color fixer for splash colors.

-2 Abundant growth +2 Exploration – donno of this is correct, I do feel the effect early game of reduced cantrips, but late game exploration feels superior

4 Serra’s sanctum – I don’t understand why anyone would run any less than the maximum, this card is amazing, with exploration you can often play it multiple times enabling wonderfully abusive things.

+1 sigarda Host of herons – mid cost gsz target, keeps with shroud theme of deck and blanking removal, second target for Defense of the heart, good beat stick.


A few thoughts on many of the lists presented, I understand that there’s a variety of ways to approach this deck but I feel there are still core issues with the deck that should be decided upon before the deck can move forward.
I see many lists running 4 of utopian sprawl, 4 wild growth, 4 of abundant growth. And I’m not convinced as many growth effects as people are running are optimal to provide acceleration where it really matters.

This article may be dated, but I’m curious if it’s design wisdom may still be relevant and that the deck may be playing more growth effects then optimal, slots that may be better utilized as 1cmc enchantments. I also feel running too many growth effects may expose our mana base.

http://www.classicdojo.org/bou97/bou.970830etel.txt

I’m also curious of peoples rationalizations of cutting ESG from many of the lists. I know space is very tight in this list but I feel it improves the play order of growth effects. When comboing out it often enables additional 1 drop enchantments to continue digging for answers.

It enables turn 1 forest+ ESG → Argothian
T2 Forest + Growth + Rip → draw 2

A common starter without it is T1 forest → Mirri’s guile
T2 Draw Land + Growth → Argothian

which I don’t think is nearly as strong and wastes a growth and a guile before casting enchantress.

I’ve been trying to see if I can play without elephant grass instead focusing on starting the engine and locking with solitary confinement as soon as possible.
Could other cards act as our primary response to aggro? ex. Orim’s chant or defense of the heart? Chant would also give us options to protect our combo and lock pieces mid game, and could be potentially useful against combo if supported. Defense of the heart also offers another path to victory versus aggro/tempo.

Abeyance, Silence, and Orim’s chant – I’ve been testing these lately, curious if anyone has had any luck builds involving these cards. Perhaps serving in an early disruption role against a variety of decks and combo. Abeyance has nice synergy late game with mirri’s guile and fetch shuffle effects.


Lately I’ve been digging through gatherer looking for any little piece of tech we may have missed. Here's some curious cards/combos that I’ve been considering:

Multani’s presence + in the eye of chaos - as an answer to control, turns countering into card disadvantage. Late game turns all instants into cantrips, could potentially make certain instants playable in the deck. Could act as some build in combo/control hate, helps against counterbalance and chalice.

Eladamari’s vineyard + Orim's chant/abeyance-

crop rotation -> maze of ith potential answer to aggro/tempo, made less fragile by inclusion of Silence effects and exploration. Maze of ith + forest w. growth + Magus of candelabra → infinite mana in the combat phase though I’ve yet to find something optimally useful to do with it.

Magus of the candelabra- donno if he fits and will likely be killed but potentially useful to untap sanctum and as a 2 cmc gsz target.

Dryad arbor + Greater auramancy + growth effect – shrouds land, makes gsz for arbor more playable.

Abeyance/ Silence/ Orim’s chant – I’m unsure of which one (if any) would be best in the current meta

The Abeyance cantrip I think works with multiple guile and fetch lands – (guile for 3, Abeyance to draw, Fetch to shuffle, Guile for 3 again , draw)

Silence - best against leyline/shroud

Orim’s Chant - offers a potential answer to aggro (at least for a turn).

Scroll rack – Just a thought as a combo enabler, haven’t seen it proposed

Parallax Nexus – I’ve had this card a while and I get this feeling about it, -4 cards for 2 turns could be crippling, with acceleration it could come down t2 and hopefully buy us an extra 2 turns to combo/lock,. triggers with enchantress effects, continues to be useful in multiples, late game could blank an opponents hand to protect our combo, minimal color requirement. Very few enchantments can disrupt the hand in this way, does not require the engine to be running to be effective.

Feel free to explain to me why something doesn’t work in real life, and thanks again to all the peeps contributing to this deck.

[Muffinman]

Isn't GSZ's CMC 1?

In your hand, yes. While it's on the stack (After you cast it) it has the cmc of 1+x. So if you cast a GSZ on 2 to find an argothian, it's cmc 3 on the stack.

[RiverCake]

Today i went 5-0-0 and with RIP/Helm Enchantress and got first place !

My list :
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Greem Sun's Zenith
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Windswept heath
3 Elefant Grass
4 Serra's Sanctum
3 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confiment
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guil
1 Gitaxean Probe
1 Emrakul ,the Aeons Torn
2 Exploration
1 Sterling Grove
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Karakas
11 Forest
1 Plains

SB:
3 Stony Silence
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Samcoty
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Sterling Grove

First Round vs RUG Delver
I won the First and borded 1 Choke and 3 Carpet of Flowers
Second round was close but won it with Helm Rip

Second Round vs Mono black discard zombie ?
I had both rounds realy good hands with Elephant gras and Rip and won 2-0

Third round vs BURG Delver
I won the first round fast and boarded nothing
I had to mulligan 2 times and statred with Mirri's Guil ,Fetch ,Forest and Enchantress's Presence and lost :(
Round 3 was realy close and i finished him with me on 3 Life :cool:

fourth round vs Punishing Maverick
both matches where Pretty easy and I won after 5 Minutes.

fifth round vs BURN
First round I locked him out with Solitary Confiment.
Second round I hand Leyline on my start hand and won with 3 Life :rolleyes:

[nedleeds]

t3-t4 solitary lock

You don't have Sterling Grove? Who are you locking? Your confinement is a 3CMC enchantment. Abrupt Decay, Pridemage and bounce exist.



2 Helm of obedience


The biggest brick in the deck, no way to shuffle it away. I wouldn't run more than 1 assuming you own Enlightened Tutor.



2 multani’s presence


This card is awful. If it cantriped upon ETB maybe. You are looking for City of Solitude which stops all manner of counterspells. It also stops Vial trick, Rishidan Port, Fetching on your turn, activating top etc.



1 sphere of saftey


I can get behind this a little. It's competing with Grass, O-Ring (as they can both help vs. Sneakshow), Moat I guess even Ghostly Prison. 5 is a little steep but it's a reasonable choice.



-2 Abundant growth +2 Exploration – donno of this is correct, I do feel the effect early game of reduced cantrips, but late game exploration feels superior


Abundant Growth is just really bad. Maybe if you are playing some 4 color abortion. It doesn't accelerate you at all and is just terrible. If you desperately desire a 9th or 10th aura to stick on a land play Trace of Abundance since you can stick it on Sanctum and make it port / wasteland proof.



4 Serra’s sanctum – I don’t understand why anyone would run any less than the maximum, this card is amazing, with exploration you can often play it multiple times enabling wonderfully abusive things.


Because you are playing a 20 land deck with no Brainstorm. You are leaning on Mirri's Guile but only run 4 fetchlands.



I see many lists running 4 of utopian sprawl, 4 wild growth, 4 of abundant growth


See above Adundant Growth is terrible.



I’m also curious of peoples rationalizations of cutting ESG from many of the lists. I know space is very tight in this list but I feel it improves the play order of growth effects. When comboing out it often enables additional 1 drop enchantments to continue digging for answers.

It enables turn 1 forest+ ESG → Argothian
T2 Forest + Growth + Rip → draw 2

A common starter without it is T1 forest → Mirri’s guile
T2 Draw Land + Growth → Argothian



ESG is terrible in this deck. Yes the dream of duress yourself forest enchantress exists but if they have force the have force. The plays you detail actually aren't good. The best opener for this deck in my experience is

Basic Forest -> Growth Effect. Go.

Land -> Enchantress and be able to pay for Daze. Enchantress resolves. Some G enchantment, Draw a Card. If they Daze it I could care fuck all since I cantripped and they Ice Stormed themselves.

[Mr. Froggy]

ESG is terrible in this deck. Yes the dream of duress yourself forest enchantress exists but if they have force the have force. The plays you detail actually aren't good. The best opener for this deck in my experience is

Basic Forest -> Growth Effect. Go.

Land -> Enchantress and be able to pay for Daze. Enchantress resolves. Some G enchantment, Draw a Card. If they Daze it I could care fuck all since I cantripped and they Ice Stormed themselves.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. If they keep you off Growth effects I feel its really hard to play around.

[octavius.lyra]

Here’s my vanilla stock list, with nothing particularly risqué

Mana Base (20)

10 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
4 windswept heath
4 serra’s sanctum

The engine (12)

4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress presence
4 green sun zenith

Accelerants (14)
4 utopian sprawl
4 Wild growth
4 mirri’s guile
2 exploration

helm (14)
2 elephant grass
2 solitary confinement
2 oblivion ring
3 rest in peace
1 karmic justice
1 wheel sun and moon

1 Emrakul, the eons torn
1 Helm of obedience
1 enlightened tutor

Sideboard (15)
4 leyline of sanctity
4 sterling grove
2 aura of silence
1 oblivion ring
1 Sigil of the empty throne
1 helm of obedience
1 gaddock teig
1 sigarda host of herons







You don't have Sterling Grove? Who are you locking? Your confinement is a 3CMC enchantment. Abrupt Decay, Pridemage and bounce exist.


It’s really more wrist control.





The biggest brick in the deck, no way to shuffle it away.
I wouldn't run more than 1 assuming you own Enlightened Tutor.


I have had that experience with other builds of not wanting it early game, it’s a definite tradeoff.



This card is awful.


Noted, it’s been proposed previously. On some levels I agree with you, and it’s competing for slots where I’d add elephant grass.



If it cantriped upon ETB maybe.


Unfortunately the only 1 cmc green non creature enchantment in the game is Abundant growth, which we all know sucks…



You are looking for City of Solitude which stops all manner of counterspells.
It also stops Vial trick, Rishidan Port, Fetching on your turn, activating top etc.


Presumably abeyance/chant/silence can serve the same function in the same capacity but also double in a disruptive role. City of solitude may be the better card,
In the eye of chaos could serve a similar role in a similar slot while also disrupting on the opponents turn.

Part of the wacky card choice of multani’s decree is an allowance to make silence/chant/abeyance more playable, and to help against early disruption from counters.





Abundant Growth even with someone completely re-tooling the list the card makes the cut in sizeable numbers. It is strange. The card does tend to make the deck considerably faster at combo-ing. As well as adds some resilience.

For control I've tried a lot of things Vexing Shusher, City of Solitude, Choke and been underwhelmed by most of them for sticking our engine.

So I tried Multani's Presence and it has been working quite well. This allows the gas to keep coming to overload their plans. To make sure we stick something I switched out Sigil for Emrakul (as many have suggested) and embraced the 4 Sanctum.

Now wit the list from the link above I can help but wonder since we are up to 4 Sanctums, and I'm toying with Multani's Presence, if we can incorporate our combo hate into a win con ...Dovescape?



But hey what does anyone know, multani’s presence is probably crap right?






I can get behind this a little. It's competing with Grass, O-Ring (as they can both help vs. Sneakshow), Moat I guess even Ghostly Prison. 5 is a little steep but it's a reasonable choice.



Agreed, it’s a recent addition that I haven’t much tested. In the past I’ve run the 2nd 0 ring. I don’t care for the cost. They all seem prohibitively expensive. Someone suggested running Darkest hour as an amend to elephant grass, which sounds compelling, but that might require a 4 color abortion build…



Abundant Growth is just really bad. Maybe if you are playing some 4 color abortion. It doesn't accelerate you at all and is just terrible.


Also agreed, which is why it’s been cut, primarily for that reason that it doesn’t directly provide any mana acceleration. I don’t think that’s its purpose. It helps provide initial card acceleration after landing an enchantress effect. It’s color fixing is secondary.



If you desperately desire a 9th or 10th aura to stick on a land play Trace of Abundance since you can stick it on Sanctum and make it port / wasteland proof.


Interesting card, but I’m not jonesing for more land enchants. I was suggesting before, I think we may be running too many, as the advantage they provide on later turns (past the 1st turn opening) becomes less relevant with sanctum. I would consider the last 2 ‘land enchants’ to be occupied by exploration.

I wouldn’t try to protect sanctum, if the engine is running it should be replaced a turn later with a new one.



Because you are playing a 20 land deck with no Brainstorm. You are leaning on Mirri's Guile but only run 4 fetchlands.


This build is leaning heavily on mirri’s guile, many of the builds here are running the full set. Presumably, there are also 6 shuffle effects though including, gsz, tutor, and emrakul, to draw out extra utility. Someone suggested running additional fetches to make the guiles more effective.

Are you suggesting running additional fetches or dropping down to 3 or otherwise altering the mana base?
In the past I’ve run 3 with karakas in its slot.
Other lists have presumably run 4 successfully, what would need to change in order to make 4 possible? Exploration makes it plausible to play sanctum multiple times in a turn. We could always add brainstorm!



See above Abundant Growth is terrible.


Sometimes really good cards and incredibly horrible cards are almost indistinguishable. Lion’s eye diamond? Eladamri’s Vineyard? Jackal Pup. It’s cut for the moment.



ESG is terrible in this deck. Yes the dream of duress yourself forest enchantress exists but if they have force they have force. The plays you detail actually aren't good. The best opener for this deck in my experience is

Basic Forest -> Growth Effect. Go.

Land -> Enchantress and be able to pay for Daze. Enchantress resolves. Some G enchantment, Draw a Card. If they Daze it I could care fuck all since I cantripped and they Ice Stormed themselves.

You’re right, for the vast majority of builds opening with growth is best and at present that is the default opening.
forest -> growth. Go.

I’m not running ESG, but I do dream of T1 enchantress, and it does make it theoretically possible, if not problematic for other reasons. It’s sort of a gambit play but makes it possible to t1 enchantress unsoundly, or use you’re suggested opening but play two 2 cmc on turn 2. Or in that it suggested opening leaves an extra mana open if we try to play GSZ for three or enchantress presence. There may be occasions (like not playing against blue) where I’d rather open unsoundly on T1.

I get that it’s something that almost can’t be tinkered with, but I think it’s worth considering what it might look like if we did even if the end result is unsound.
I do think there are other novel ways the deck can open, from “weak “ position and still be playable. Occasionally, I find wacky things happen, that deviate from the typical strong opening but transpositionally reach the same state by t4/t5.


Just me put it well. The core issue with is speed, the fundamental turn of enchantress is too slow, and there is discontinuity of tempo between playing our disruptive enchantments and ramping to 2-enchantress effects, simultaneously.




The core issue (as I see it) with Enchantress is something that cannot really be tinkered with. It would require some new cards for the archetype.

The core issue being speed. In a strong game/opening, our engine usually is dropped on turn 2, revs the engine turn 3 and becomes dominating on turn 4 (with a RIP + Helm FTW, a lock or other overwhelming advantage).

That same turn 2 we invest in our engine, you could be dead against a host of options (Tin Fin, Belcher, Storm variations, Show and Tell variations and even Reanimator can semi-lock you with Iona). So basically, our fundamental turn is too slow. Also, against Jund (or any deck with both discard and Liliana), on turn 2 your stong opener will be ripped apart and we're left topdecking (hopefully with a Mirri's Guile to have some options). (keep in mind that in the Netherlands, the meta has an awful lot of combo-players and a lot of decks revolving around discard and counters (the Thoughtseize/FOW decks in various iterations, or half of that, either the U of the B)).

This can be solved in two ways;
1) get faster (what your deck is doing admirably, also thanks to RIP and our own option to a fast combo-win now, com[pared to traditional 'Solitaire')
2) slow the game down (more the gameplan of Solitaire, with Moat, Confinement, Elephant Grass and maybe Rootmaze, Surpression Field,...)

These are not necessarily mutually exclusive in a deck.

Thing is, I don't know how to approach the issue of the fundamental turn. I do know that I really like the RIP-Helm combo because the GY hate is nice to have and the kill is fairly resilient and direct. I will try some Abundant Growths in my next version. Maybe an unbanned Earthcraft could inspire a new direction for the deck (although I suspect that it might be a better deck, it will be better against the same decks we're good against already).

And I will play the first Enlighted Tutor over the second Helm in that deck any day since it's more flexibilty and the additional draws it has (the deck) compensate easily. Mystical Tutor is banned for a reason and U deck couldn't abuse it as much as we can Enlighted Tutor (in terms of speed into actually getting in hand. Quality of targets is up for discussion).

Yes, I'm a bit down on my favorite deck right now :cry::cry::cry:.

Thanks for your comments! I’ll keep you posted on helm-chant-aborted-fetus-baby-rest build develops. Hopefully, I’ll brainstorm some idea’s to help it overcome its crippling down syndrome, or you know, just drop it in a dumpster and go play a real deck or whatever (SnS is on the up and up right?)

I also have a highly experimental build in the works, but here’s the kicker is instead of Helm of Obedience I’ve replaced it with Sigil of the empty throne, and rest in peace with replenish. I’ve got a good feeling about this…

On the real, thank you.

[RiverCake]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13103
here is the list :)

[btm10]

Congrats on your finish!

Just out of curiosity, what were your matchups? And how much combo was present at the event?

[CaptainTwiddle]

I will try Porphyry Node (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/28.html) as a Sideboard option.
Did someone tried it?

Porphyry Nodes kills your Argothian Enchantress, which seems bad. If you're set on running the effect, then go with Drop of Honey, as it seems easier on the mana.

[btm10]

I've run Drop of Honey (before Nodes was printed), and it's not that bad if you're facing down a horde. It plays around taxing countermagic by being 1 cmc, and as long as you're not breaking up your Confinement lock, you should be fine. Then again, if you've got your confinement lock up, you shouldn't be playing Nodes/Drop. I'm not sold on running it (it's not like aggro/tempo decks are your problem), especially when the more troublesome creature-based strategies like D&T are better fought with Suppression Field.

[RiverCake]

I've run Drop of Honey (before Nodes was printed), and it's not that bad if you're facing down a horde. It plays around taxing countermagic by being 1 cmc, and as long as you're not breaking up your Confinement lock, you should be fine. Then again, if you've got your confinement lock up, you shouldn't be playing Nodes/Drop. I'm not sold on running it (it's not like aggro/tempo decks are your problem), especially when the more troublesome creature-based strategies like D&T are better fought with Suppression Field.

Thats true :rolleyes:

I wrote a smal tournament report report on page 11.

[Scott]

I've been testing this for a while and I'll be playing it at GP New Jersey.

// Enchantments
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
4 Sterling Grove
1 Trace of Abundance
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

2 In the Eye of Chaos
3 Nevermore
1 Sacred Mesa

1 Humility

1 Sphere of Safety

// Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress

// Instants
3 Enlightened Tutor

// Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience

// Lands
3 Forest
2 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

62 Cards

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 City of Solitude
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 3 Humility
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Rule of Law

15 Cards

Some things of note:

- The Enchantress engine with things like Enchantress's Presence, Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement has essentially been discarded for several reasons. The Rest in Peace (and Wheel of Sun and Moon)/Energy Field combo allows you to crush aggro, and pillow fort against most decks, in a way that doesn't involve loading up on cards that are dead to combo or slow. Argothian Enchantress is just a hypercharged shrouded Dark Confidant card advantage permanent in the deck. Less reliance on Enchantress effects also allows one to be very pro-Humility. I'm not saying it's better or worse than traditional; it's just different, and I believe better for this more combo and hatecard-oriented shell.

- Nevermore and In the Eye of Chaos are basically flexible anti-counter and anti-combo cards, with the former having other uses. Sometimes the situation calls for naming a removal spell like Abrupt Decay or Council's Judgment, or Force of Will, or a combo piece, etc.

- The amount of card selection with Guile, Grove, and E. Tutor makes for very few clunky games.

- <3 Treasure Cruise

[Weapon X]

Why are you not playing sylvan library?

[LIKEABOSS]

I've been testing this for a while and I'll be playing it at GP New Jersey.

// Enchantments
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
4 Sterling Grove
1 Trace of Abundance
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

2 In the Eye of Chaos
3 Nevermore
1 Sacred Mesa

1 Humility

1 Sphere of Safety

// Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress

// Instants
3 Enlightened Tutor

// Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience

// Lands
3 Forest
2 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

62 Cards

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 City of Solitude
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 3 Humility
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Rule of Law

15 Cards

Some things of note:

- The Enchantress engine with things like Enchantress's Presence, Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement has essentially been discarded for several reasons. The Rest in Peace (and Wheel of Sun and Moon)/Energy Field combo allows you to crush aggro, and pillow fort against most decks, in a way that doesn't involve loading up on cards that are dead to combo or slow. Argothian Enchantress is just a hypercharged shrouded Dark Confidant card advantage permanent in the deck. Less reliance on Enchantress effects also allows one to be very pro-Humility. I'm not saying it's better or worse than traditional; it's just different, and I believe better for this more combo and hatecard-oriented shell.

- Nevermore and In the Eye of Chaos are basically flexible anti-counter and anti-combo cards, with the former having other uses. Sometimes the situation calls for naming a removal spell like Abrupt Decay or Council's Judgment, or Force of Will, or a combo piece, etc.

- The amount of card selection with Guile, Grove, and E. Tutor makes for very few clunky games.

- <3 Treasure Cruise
Good luck!

May I ask why you have 62 cards in your eck?

[Scott]

Why are you not playing sylvan library?

To be honest, I hadn't considered it in the deck even though I've messed around with it in a different type of Enchantress. I certainly wouldn't go below 3 Mirri's Guile because I've found Turn 1 card selection to be a huge boon, not that that stops me from running Library, even though I wonder if I need another similar effect, plus another 2 drop. I don't like the idea of cutting a Nevermore or something, because the numbers have been good, but Library's powerful and merits testing. Thanks for the reminder.


Good luck!

May I ask why you have 62 cards in your eck?
Thanks!

It's controversial, but basically, it makes a certain amount of sense in a toolbox deck. I believe that the parts of a percent chance I lose of drawing 4-ofs that I usually want to see are smaller than the positive benefit of having a card to tutor for that I wouldn't otherwise have. Also, I tested a lot with different land count and card count configurations, and this has been the best for land.