[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[FZA]

I haven't been able to play much lately, but I did finally get a chance to try out more MD discard in a couple of matches (both online and in paper) yesterday. My (preliminary) thoughts in no particular order:

1. The sorcery count feels about right with a 3/3 Hymn/Thoughtseize split.

2. Moving the discard back to the maindeck opens up those sideboard slots. I started with 3 Thoughtseize in the sideboard, so I got to add a third piece of graveyard hate, the Jitte from the maindeck, and a long-game flex slot (Crucible/Sylvan Library/Jace/etc).

3. With so much discard, having additional cantrips or filtering seems even more important than before, and I'm not super comfortable with only 19 blue cards. I'm going to go down to 5 discard effects with the 1-of Ponder as a first pass, but having a 1-of Jace might be ok as well. I'm still iffy on maindecking Sylvan Library.

4. Thoughtseize makes Jace, the Mind Sculptor more attractive. Not only is Jace a Brainstorm every turn to prevent flooding on discard, but knowing what our opponent has seen or has access to means that it's much less likely to get hit with a Pyroblast on the stack

I've also messed around a bit with the manabase, but that's a topic for another post.

I think it's cool that you're experimenting with a more discard-heavy build. You should definitely test against Grixis Delver a bit though, because I would be a little concerned about having too many cards that don't affect the board and subsequently getting tempo'd out. Discard can also be somewhat of a liability against Miracles and in the Shardless mirror, as they are not great cards to topdeck.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hymn is actually pretty okay against Miracles until top is active and they have an empty hand. Thoughtseize helps make sure top doesn't become active. Later, when discard is bad against most things, yes, it becomes a bad draw.

The mirror can be tricky, and is definitely an attrition war. I think discard is fine here. Top decks, yes, but I am still hoping a shardless brew of more than normal count of discard + some number of Grim Flayer will become a thing.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[btm10]

I think it's cool that you're experimenting with a more discard-heavy build. You should definitely test against Grixis Delver a bit though, because I would be a little concerned about having too many cards that don't affect the board and subsequently getting tempo'd out. Discard can also be somewhat of a liability against Miracles and in the Shardless mirror, as they are not great cards to topdeck.

Discard is pretty polarized in my experience on both sides of the Grixis matchup. It's really good on the play, especially if you have a Deathrite, but I agree that it's quite bad if you get too far behind on board. The only "stock" slots that play to the board I was cutting are Pulse and Deluge/Jitte, and they're both quite expensive (Deluge in particular is much better with Thoughtseize to make sure it resolves). I'm very much in the camp of going down on discard and up on removal postboard, especially on the draw, but I'm not locked on any list in particular right now.

[minyafriend]

Aluren is giving me fits lately. Anyone figured this matchup out? What cards are super important? I like hymn force tarmogoyf golgari charm and trying to keep them off 4 mana. Don't think I've won a match against aluren to this date haha.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Get an aluren in their yard and then Surgical.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[btm10]

Get an aluren in their yard and then Surgical.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I don't think this is a great plan since it requires running Surgical (which is, at they very least, a horrible hit off of Agent even in matchups where you want graveyard hate), and only works if you get lucky enough to hit exactly Aluren with your discard or put them in a position where they have to try and stick Aluren without protection and you have a castable Force.


Aluren is giving me fits lately. Anyone figured this matchup out? What cards are super important? I like hymn force tarmogoyf golgari charm and trying to keep them off 4 mana. Don't think I've won a match against aluren to this date haha.

It's not a great matchup for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that we typically can't destroy Aluren. I've actually been playing some Aluren lately, and the best ways to fight the deck is to try to tempo them out. The most effective disruption is permant-based. They can't combo with Night of Souls' Betrayal/Engineered Plague (on Advisor or Soldier to stop Recruiters, or on Beast to stop Cavern Harpy) or Sphere of Resistance on the table, so stick one of those and go to Goyf town. They have(tutorable) removal for both, so it's imperative that you actually kill them quickly. Jitte can complicate their combo, but can't stop it outright unless you've got a lot of counters stored up.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's a bad version of this deck if you do get the surg. on it. I think you definitely win when they have no trump card.

It's a fine strategy against aluren, any deck with show and tell, painter, and any other deck whose win condition hinges on an effect you can only get from a single card. It neuters an entire line as early as turn 1. I play Thoughtseizes main; I know you do not, and do not care for it afaik, but between those and FoW, there's a reasonable chance of successfully resolving a Surgical Extraction on an Aluren.

As to the Shardless Agent comment, that is what it is and this particular argument can be used on a number of cards to include; in the sideboard especially.

We can agree to disagree, but I have a history since the Extirpate days of doing this against lists like this without issue.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Krimson Viper]

If you have a lot of Storm in your meta, Arcane Laboratory is an option, as well.

[Hrothgar]

It's not a great matchup for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that we typically can't destroy Aluren. I've actually been playing some Aluren lately, and the best ways to fight the deck is to try to tempo them out. The most effective disruption is permant-based. They can't combo with Night of Souls' Betrayal/Engineered Plague (on Advisor or Soldier to stop Recruiters, or on Beast to stop Cavern Harpy) or Sphere of Resistance on the table, so stick one of those and go to Goyf town. They have(tutorable) removal for both, so it's imperative that you actually kill them quickly. Jitte can complicate their combo, but can't stop it outright unless you've got a lot of counters stored up.

I quote this.
Aluren is a very good deck in this meta.
We have no way to remove Aluren if we don't discard it (or mono-Maelstrom).
There's no simply to Surgical it imho.

[Claymore]

Turn 2 Lost Legacy, accelerated by Deathrite Shaman.

They may draw a card, but last I checked the deck can't do nearly as much without Aluren itself.

[weiuweiu]

Hello!
Been tweaking some, but unsure what to put at the last spot in sideboard. Any tips? Sylvan, Jitte, extra jace, surgical?

The Deck

CREATURES (17)
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

SORCERIES (6)
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ponder

INSTANTS (12)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

PLANESWALKERS (3)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

LANDS (22)
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland


SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique

[btm10]

Turn 2 Lost Legacy, accelerated by Deathrite Shaman.

They may draw a card, but last I checked the deck can't do nearly as much without Aluren itself.

What other matchup would you want Lost Legacy in? I don't think it warrants a slot since it's too narrow (and card disadvantage) against fair decks and too slow against combo.


Hello!
Been tweaking some, but unsure what to put at the last spot in sideboard. Any tips? Sylvan, Jitte, extra jace, surgical?

The Deck

CREATURES (17)
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

SORCERIES (6)
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ponder

INSTANTS (12)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

PLANESWALKERS (3)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

LANDS (22)
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland


SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique

I'd play a second Deluge or a Jitte in the board, and I don't think that Cage is a great piece of graveyard hate right now since it's blank against Punishing Fire/Loam decks. Planar Void and Leyline of the Void are both better. How has Leovold been? I tried him and found himsuper bad.

[weiuweiu]

What other matchup would you want Lost Legacy in? I don't think it warrants a slot since it's too narrow (and card disadvantage) against fair decks and too slow against combo.



I'd play a second Deluge or a Jitte in the board, and I don't think that Cage is a great piece of graveyard hate right now since it's blank against Punishing Fire/Loam decks. Planar Void and Leyline of the Void are both better. How has Leovold been? I tried him and found himsuper bad.

For me Leo has been great, mostly against the blue decks with brainstorm and such, but also for burn actually, every burn spell lets me draw cards and hopefully find something like drs xD

[minyafriend]

played in the legacy champs event at eternal weekend to a below average result but did well in some trials and side events with this list:
https://manastack.com/deck/shardless-bug-4

ending record 2-2-2drop

round 1 grixis delver 1-2 gitaxian probe and cabal therapy on turn 1 of games 1 and 3 to a virtual mulligan to 5 with no scry was too hard to come back from with his agressive hands

round 2 elves 2-1 umezawas jitte in the main is a real dealer, also game 3 turn 1 grafdiggers cage saved my ass hard

round 3 rug delver 0-2 stifled everything that could possibly be stifled from ancestral vision to shardless cascade triggers to liliana trigger to fetches i never really got in any of the games

round 4 d+t 1-1-1 opponent played very slow, game 3 was a grind fest, but abrupt decay and the 1st pulse had dealt with all their equpiment and golgari charm and the 1st toxic deluge had removed pretty much all the creatures in their deck, on turn four of turns they play a mirran crusader that i knew was in their hand that i was saving the second deluge for, on turn 5 i draw maelstrom pulse and toxic deluge the board leaving my tarmogoyf and no creatures left on their board but still need 1 more turn to deal lethal with the goyf, i reveal pulse and ask for a concession and they decline. the only thing left in their deck that could have saved them a few more turns at that point was swords to plowshares. i was salty for a moment.

round 5 ant 2-0 easy match

round 6 d+t 1-1-1 super long grindy games. toxic deluge, golgari charm and umezawas jitte are bonkers against this deck obviously. you are definitely the better jitte deck due to the inclusion of abrupt decay and tarmogoyf if it comes down to a jitte showdown. your diversity of cmc in threats makes sanctum prelate an incredibly skill intensive card but naming 0, 2 or 3 will give you many outs but make it incredibly difficult to win quickly.

all in all a super fun weekend. the only thing im upset about is losing to some delver decks. i had prepared against grixis delver/variants, miracles and d+t/variants pretty exhaustively prior to this event and found the delver matchups pretty simple, but sometimes theyre just too quick. i think over the course of 1 night and 2 days i played 22 matches of legacy, and even some of the guys i went out to columbus with placed highly with infect and lands and even top 32d the vintage event.

[Spaker]

Hi everyone,

I joined a 30 players tournament two days ago at my LGS with this Shardless BUG. It's Lejay's last list (01/06/2016)

22 LANDS

1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

12 CREATURES

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

20 INSTANTS and SORC.

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ponder
2 Toxic Deluge

6 OTHER SPELLS

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD

1 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Leyline of the Void
4 Meddling Mage
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Savannah
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize


I made top 8 with 3-1-1 (ID) and lost in quarter against UR Burn.
What I really liked about this list is the 2nd Toxic Deluge paired with the 3rd Liliana. Before that tournament, I kept a pretty straight forward version with only 1 Toxic Deluge, 2 Baleful Strix and 2 Hymn to Tourach. It was solid but I wanted to try a more control oriented '75 with an even better MU against fair decks. Therefore the side is mostly dedicated to fight combo obviously.


R1 2-1 RB Reanimator

I played against the creator of the archetype, and his list won the Legacy Bazaar of Moxen of last week. G1 was too hard. I managed to keep him at bay with 2 Force of Will on his Reanimates, but the 3rd won put a Griselbrand on board. G2 was easier since he mulled to 5' and I had a great start with DRS and a Leyline on turn 3. G3 was very close : he showed me a Chancellor of the Annex and played it on turn 1. I took some beating but found a Liliana that took care of his creature and a FOW countered another key spell.


R2 2-0 4 Color Delver

G1 was all about wasteland and DRS. Fortunately I found more lands and was able to put him out of tempo. He never got back as I played goyf and shardless agent. G2 : I had 2 toxic deluge, 1 sylvan library a FOW and enough lands. He played 2 DRS and a Delver but has a single Underground Sea. I play my Library and turn 2 and fire my toxic on turn 3 ---> he dazes ---> I force ---> he brainstorms but can't find his own FOW. He cannot catch-up as I played 2 Goyfs.


R3 0-2 Grixis Control

I wasn't experienced with this MU and payed the price. G1 : I had DRS and shardless agent on an empty board on turn 3. Turn 4 I send my Liliana into a Spellpierce without any FOW to back-up. From there he played Gurmag and decayed DRS. I never found my Maelström Pulse or an other Liliana. G2 : I kept a heavy hand with Night of Soul's Betrayal and Jace. He played DRS and Young Pyromancer combined with Winter Orb. I had no Decay to break the asphyxia. My Night of Soul's Betrayal walked into another spellpierce.


R4 2-0 Shardless BUG

G1 : he got color-screwed with only two bayou on board as I killed his DRS. He had a hand full of Strix ans BS. G2 : Toxic-deluge killed his 2 DRS. I resolved a Vision and Jace. He conceded as I forced his own Vision.
The MU usually come down to Abrupt Decay on Goyf and Vision. But in that round the 2nd Toxic Deluge broke G2.


R5 1-1 Lands.

We agreed on draw and made into Top 8. We played for fun and I got crushed two times by Marit...


R6 Quarter-Final 0-2 UR Burn

G1 was very tight. He drew a lot of burn spell and killed several deathrite. I managed to kill his swiftspear and stormchaser with Toxic Deluge. Then he played a Bedlam Reveler that was stopped by my Goyf but found a snapcaster to finish me with a bolt. In G2 I kept a poor hand with too many fow and never saw a decay. I forced his T1 delver and my only shardless cascaded into my sideboarded Swords to Plowshares onto an empty board. Price of Progress and another Bedlam crushed me several turns later.


Overall I found that the package with the Toxic and the Liliana was quite efficient. I was in that sweet spot where you see your opponent playing multiple threats while thinking "he won't have enough decay". Sylvan Library was also a key spell in grindy MU obviously. The ponder was ok. Maybe I should shave an Ancestral Vision to avoid too many source of potential CA. I only saw one combo but the dedicated sideboard worked great. The one thing I'm not sure about is the lone Swords to Plowshares. It's awful to cascade into it if there are no valuable target.

Thx for reading

Spaker

[ironclad8690]

Nice report!

I finally picked up modo again after a long dry spell, unfortunately due to some poor decisions I am Liliana-less.

I tried making a list without her, and I went 2-3 in a league (should have been 3-2, but last round vs BR Reanimator I clicked my land and then F2'ed too quickly, the 2nd main phase was passed without me playing a land, leaving me with no mana to pay a Chancellor of the Annex tax for my Force of Will/Grafidigger's Cage). Felt stupid to lose to a mistake like that, but I suppose I should learn to be more patient. A $12 lesson :/

Here's the list I tried:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Sylvan Library

I managed to beat UR Thing in the Ice/TNN/Snapcaster/Surgical.dec, and Grixis Delver. I lost to said UR deck, BR Reanimator (though this was due to my own stupidity/modo not registering my speed clicks), and Eldrazi Stompy. Eldrazi match was close in our 3 games, but multiple running All is Dusts g3 saved my opponent's behind.

Going to try and work my way back to a regular list.

[minyafriend]

Too bad about your lilianas hopefully you can get em back without putting too much of a dent in your wallet. No love for garruk though?!

[btm10]

I've actually been kicking around a Liliana-less list for a bit, though I'll admit it's been a low prioity. I've particularly been unimpressed with Liliana against Miracles and D&T lately. It does force you to build and play a bit differently since you can no longer rely on the ultimate to clean up random permanents. I'm not sure if it's right, but I don't think it's crazy either.

With your list, I'd go:
-2 Jace
-1 Trop
+1 Strix
+1 Ponder
+1 Jitte/Deluge/Dimir Charm

[MorphBerlin]

This is the list I'm currently jamming, feels great but I just can't seem to win against grixis delver anymore (I'll admit that I am playing badly somehow but latley they allways seem to have everythin and their SB pretty strong) and d&t is a miserable MU (I used to run a Dread of Night over the 2nd Deluge in the SB but I don't think it's worth it). If you don't like ponder I would add a Strix/2nd Lili/2nd Pulse/Dismember/2nd Deluge - any kind of removal.

On a side note please board Plague against miracles. It is so much better than deluge for instance because you can kill all their Wizards to protecct your PWs or all their monks depending on the situation.

2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision

1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

[JermStudDog]

What other matchup would you want Lost Legacy in? I don't think it warrants a slot since it's too narrow (and card disadvantage) against fair decks and too slow against combo.


I wish "nonartifact" weren't part of the stipulations, then the card would definitely be worth testing at least. As the card is written, I think Infinite Obliteration would be a better card since it doesn't offer compensation for the exiled cards.

I guess you could try making major modifications to the deck by including 4 Thoughtseize in the MD and 1-2 Lost Legacy. You get more early hand interaction with your opponent, and later in the game you can target yourself to remove the useless junk from your library and draw 0-4 cards. That looks terrible now that I'm reading it...

[ChaosOS]

Lost Legacy only draws if it's in hand, and since Shardless is such a value based deck it's unlikely you've got any completely dead cards in hand unless your opponent is on combo, in which case you should be LL them.

[JermStudDog]

The thought was that you can cash in your Thoughtseizes for useful cards, which would already be used vs combo and kinda become useless when you get into the topdeck war stages of a game. But -1 cards in hand to turn bad cards into good cards is still bad. That's why I said it looks horrible when reading it.

[btm10]

Shardless is in the semis of SCG Baltimore. Maybe I shouldn't give up on the deck after all. Looks like his plan against Lands is "don't get paired against Lands".

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109247

[halahel]

Shardless is in the semis of SCG Baltimore. Maybe I shouldn't give up on the deck after all. Looks like his plan against Lands is "don't get paired against Lands".

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109247

He won! 2-0. Feels good to be a Shardless player. The deck definitely has legs right now. Fwiw, I played in two events at GP Dallas, went 3-0 in one and 3-1 in the other.

As for Lands, that match-up is very winnable. Orr just 2-0ed a Lands player in the semis, as a matter of fact.

Also, looks like it's time for me to give Leovold a shot.

[ashent]

The singleton Leovold seems like it's likely right. I kept trying to jam 2 to limited success (his presence on the board being very win-more a lot of the time, or completely uncastable in hand) but will just go ahead and play the 1 in the mainboard today. I'm not completely sold on the sideboard or lack of Dismember in the main, but the numbers in the last list posted seem pretty good. I feel like the 2/2 Thoughtseize/Hymn split is really where we want to be, provided you're lucky enough to have Thoughtseize in your opening hand instead of drawing it turn 8.

[btm10]

He won! 2-0. Feels good to be a Shardless player. The deck definitely has legs right now. Fwiw, I played in two events at GP Dallas, went 3-0 in one and 3-1 in the other.

As for Lands, that match-up is very winnable. Orr just 2-0ed a Lands player in the semis, as a matter of fact.

Also, looks like it's time for me to give Leovold a shot.

I tried Leovold and didn't like him, but your mileage may vary. I was somewhat joking about Lands, but I do think he benefitted from playing against Jund Lands rather than straight RG, which is much harder because of Punishing Fire.

Also, it looks like he had a real slog of a day 2, playing his win-and-in against Elves and pulling that out. It sounds like he had to play very tightly to make it in to the Top 8, and he definitely showed that he knows how to play the Lands and Miracles matchups.


The singleton Leovold seems like it's likely right. I kept trying to jam 2 to limited success (his presence on the board being very win-more a lot of the time, or completely uncastable in hand) but will just go ahead and play the 1 in the mainboard today. I'm not completely sold on the sideboard or lack of Dismember in the main, but the numbers in the last list posted seem pretty good. I feel like the 2/2 Thoughtseize/Hymn split is really where we want to be, provided you're lucky enough to have Thoughtseize in your opening hand instead of drawing it turn 8.

I think 2/2 or 3/1 Hymn/Thoughtseize is right, depending on how your other costs are distributed. Maelstrom Pulse is better than Dismember as maindeck removal, though I do have a Dismember in the side. I'm currently running the MD Pulse over MD Jace, which I'm starting to think night be wrong.

[minyafriend]

For what it's worth I've found murderous cut to be a bit better than dismember as a 1 of delve spell doesn't tend to hurt your tarmogoyf or drs, our life total is a serious resource and it's totally unconditional removal. I've also found diversifying our cmc removal spells to be super important against sanctum prelate. Let me know what y'all think.

[btm10]

For what it's worth I've found murderous cut to be a bit better than dismember as a 1 of delve spell doesn't tend to hurt your tarmogoyf or drs, our life total is a serious resource and it's totally unconditional removal. I've also found diversifying our cmc removal spells to be super important against sanctum prelate. Let me know what y'all think.

If they Prelate on 3, you can Disfigure or Decay it. If they Prelate on 3 and have a Mother of Runes out, then Cut doesn't help anyway. I like Cut a lot in a world without Mother of Runes or where Eldrazi is half a turn to a full turn slower. The ability to kill a turn 1 Creature unconditionally ultimately outweighs not having to pay life.

[minyafriend]

If they Prelate on 3, you can Disfigure or Decay it. If they Prelate on 3 and have a Mother of Runes out, then Cut doesn't help anyway. I like Cut a lot in a world without Mother of Runes or where Eldrazi is half a turn to a full turn slower. The ability to kill a turn 1 Creature unconditionally ultimately outweighs not having to pay life.

A few moments where it matters right now: huge knight of the reliquary, oblivion sower, a big creature equipped with a jitte with counters on it, 5/6 tarmogoyfs and removal that doesn't cost life against u/r delver and burn. I agree that being able to kill something turn one is important but I don't neccessarily think that's the tool murderous cut is in there for

[btm10]

A few moments where it matters right now: huge knight of the reliquary, oblivion sower, a big creature equipped with a jitte with counters on it, 5/6 tarmogoyfs and removal that doesn't cost life against u/r delver and burn. I agree that being able to kill something turn one is important but I don't neccessarily think that's the tool murderous cut is in there for

I think the utility of turn 1 removal far outweighs the corner cases where Cut answers something that Dismember doesn't. Even in the scenarios you mention, Decay is a better solution to all but the Oblivion Sower, and Dismember as a combat trick is just as good as Cut against Sower and all but the largest of Knights.

Also, look back over your match history. I suspect that you lose to turn 1 Mothers, Deathrite Shamans, and Delvers putting you behind because you're not running enough turn 1 removal far more often than you lose to random fatties coupled with not drawing Liliana, Jace, Maelstrom Pulse, Decay, or blockers.

[btm10]

I spent some time working on Shardless this week, and I'm increasingly of the opinion that trying to get around Red Blasts by cutting blue cards (especially Jace, especially against Miracles) is probably not a good plan. They're bringing the blasts in to fight Vision, and having fewer targets makes it much more likely that those Blasts get their intended targets. I'm taking the Blohon route and boarding a Jace now, along with a Clique.

[Seraphix]

Is anyone trying out the SB Master of the Wild Hunt from last week's SCG winning list?

[btm10]

Is anyone trying out the SB Master of the Wild Hunt from last week's SCG winning list?

I haven't tried it since it's intuitively worse than Garruk (or at least has a significantly higher opportunity cost). It requires GG (not always possible against Blood Moon, which is one of the things Garruk comes in against) and makes the first Wolf the turn after you play him rather than immediately.

[ironclad8690]

I spent some time working on Shardless this week, and I'm increasingly of the opinion that trying to get around Red Blasts by cutting blue cards (especially Jace, especially against Miracles) is probably not a good plan. They're bringing the blasts in to fight Vision, and having fewer targets makes it much more likely that those Blasts get their intended targets. I'm taking the Blohon route and boarding a Jace now, along with a Clique.

I like this logic. Red Blasts also stop one of my favorite cards vs them, Creeping Tar Pit, which I have been on 2 of lately. Gotta spread those blasts, make em deal with Jace via combat damage.

[btm10]

I like this logic. Red Blasts also stop one of my favorite cards vs them, Creeping Tar Pit, which I have been on 2 of lately. Gotta spread those blasts, make em deal with Jace via combat damage.

I was pretty happy with a singleton Mishra's Factory as my second creature land, though I think 4 Wastelands/1 Factory is too many colorless sources unless you go to 23 land, which is a lot, so 3 Waste, 2 Tar Pit, 22 Land, 0 Ponder is probably the best configuration with multiple creature lands, I think. The synergy with creature lands is also one of the things I love about Crucible out of the board.

More to your point, Andrea Mengucci posted an article (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/shardless-sultai-is-back/) last week about his recent run with Shardless, and his list features 2 Cliques in the board. I love Clique in the deck, especially if we're deliberately overloading Blasts against Miracles, but some of his meta reads don't jive with what happens here in the mid Atlantic (especially regarding Lands).

[minyafriend]

went 5-0 tonight in a league. many 4-1's but this is my first elusive 5-0.
i was trying some old cards again inspired by the scg baltimore list.
heres the list: https://manastack.com/deck/shardless-bug-4

match1: u/r delver 2-1 allstars-basic lands, jitte, goyf hymn
in: hymn, disfigure, murderous cut, golgari charm. i never saw true name nemesis but some lists dont run it but golgari charm could regenerate something if needed so why not.
out: 3 liliana, toxic deluge. liliana seems bad against all the hasters and fliers but she helps empty their hand and get rid of creatures... hymn disfigure and cut are probably better.
this is my least favorite flavor of delver to see, its definitely almost as deadly to shardless as burn is but id rather see this any day over that deck.

match 2: b/r reanimator 2-0 allstars-basic lands, surgical extraction, hymn, deathrite. he never goes off game 1 giving hymn and goyf a chance to run free and game 2 i win on my turn 1 at the eot he entombs i fetch, brainstorm, find surgical tarmogoyf and force with a blue card in hand. let entomb resolve and surgical griselbrand. he concedes. maybe a tad hasty but the tarmo wouldve probably got there anyways.
in: 2 surgical, grafdiggers cage, 2 duress, hymn, golgari charm, pithing needle
out: 2 strix, 4 abrupt decay, umezawas jitte, toxic deluge
matchup is weird, i want the abrupt decays for blood moon and maelstrom pulse for big guys and sneak attack but swamp and forest really tend to do the trick. maybe the charm should be a decay?

match 3: esper deathblade 2-0 allstars-ancestral vision, hymn, creeping jitte pit, life from the loam.
in: hymn, toxic deluge, golgari charm, night of souls betrayal, life from the loam, garruk relentless, maelstrom pulse, pithing needle
out: 3 liliana, 4 force of will, 1 strix
disfigure and murderous cut dont seem to have many targetable targets worth targeting. liliana seems bad cause of lingering souls and true name and im bringing in enough sweepers to take care of true name without her help. lately ive noticed how suprised people are when they see jitte in shardless, but just imagine peoples faces when you wasteland them and then loam back two wastelands and a tarpit. loam is cute but it actually helps grind on an extra axis. ill keep it around for a little bit to test more against lands and 3-4 color delvers etc.

match 4: 2-1 mono red sneak attack allstars-basic lands, force of will, hymn to tourach
in: hymn, 2 duress, pithing needle, 2 surgical extraction
out: ancestral vision, abrupt decay, toxic deluge, 2 baleful strix, umezawas jitte.
again worried about blood moon.. not alot of other targets for abrupt decay and not alot of blue for force after board.... terrible matchup, i most likely got very lucky winning games 2 and 3.

match 5: 2-1 dredge. allstars- deathrite shaman, grafdiggers cage, surgical extraction and unsurprisingly enough umezawas jitte.
in: 2 duress, 2 surgical, night of souls betrayal, grafdiggers cage
out: 3 liliana, 2 hymn, 1 ancestral
if you surgical(or eat with deathrite) all their ichorid and narcomebas they cant win, if you get a nosb out they cant stick narcos and ichorids for cabal therapy and dread return although it still triggers bridge. if you have a jitte with counters or any creature and some instant speed removal in hand you can exile their bridges after theyve returned ichorid (if you cant eat it) on their draw step after theyve dredged more bridges and narcomebas into the yard hopefully by killing a pointless creature you control but before giving them a chance to sac creatures to therapy. all in all a pretty fun matchup, can be pretty hard if they go off too fast though :(

still thinking about trying 2 thoughtseize over 2 duress but i feel like duress helps the burn match up slightly while not hurting the matchups where you really want targeted hand disruption like storm. also still not super excited about big jace, i would consider tossing a sylvan library in before jace number 1.

what do yall think? would love some feedback. :)

[btm10]

Congrats on the 5-0.

Just a few thoughts: Liliana isn't great against Lingering Souls, but she's great against the rest of Blade decks , so I'd leave her in and bring in at least the Disfigures for my MD discard to make sure I always have Deathrite supremacy. I think Thoughtseize gets the nod over Duress simply so you can take fatties from Sneak Attack and Show and Tell decks. You're seldom afraid of Reanimator hands where you're forced to take a fatty, and while Duress offers a minor benefit against Burn relative to Thoughtseize, I don't take Burn into consideration unless a card cauaes huge swings in the matchup.

Edit: I'd also leave Strixes in against Reanimator and Sneak Attack. They're very ok in the matchup, but they're blue in matchups where Force is very important.

Edit 2: Same as above regarding Ancestral Vision. It's not great in those matchups, but you need blue cards to make your Forces work, and they're quite nice if you get to turns 4 amd 5, enabling you to restock on disruption or find additional threats to shorten the clock. As for Decay vs. Charm, I think Charm is marginally better against BR Reanimator and Sneak Attack decks since it hits Sneak Attack and I don't think most Reanimator lists run Pithing Needle like the UBx ones do. I could be wrong though.

[Spaker71]

also still not super excited about big jace, i would consider tossing a sylvan library in before jace number 1.

Can you be more specific about the reasons why you dislike big Jace ? Is there any game where you wish you had it in your 75' ?
I clearly understand the attraction of Sylvan (I'm actually currently playing one MD), but I find jace to be overall more powerful and not as slow (compared to Sylvan Library) as it seems.


Anyway, nice record with the tournament : )

[minyafriend]

There's never a moment where I wish I had jace in my 75. Jace is definitely more powerful than sylvan ina card by card comparison but definitely a slower card. in my opinion the meta right now is just too unfriendly to a four drop that doesn't immediately win you the game or stop them from winning the game. I think jace does this more so in miracles but less so in shardless. Reb/pyro effects are every where and there are flying, hasting and/or unblockable creatures everywhere. If anything I think he's probably more comfortable as a sideboard card against the mirror or miracles and then I'd rather have garruk relentless. Now I do agree that because the reb effects are coming in against you you might want to force them to stretch the use they get out of that spell by having more more powerful blue spells eventually one is going to stick and win you the game I personally would just rather have a more powerful non blue spell/permanent that is more difficult to interact with and actively wins you the game by commanding the board with creatures or puts many magic cards into your hand turns before jace will.

Matchups where sylvan is better than jace
D+t
maverick
Matchups where jace is just bad most of the time
All delver decks
Elves
Matchups where jace is really good
Mirror, miracles
Matchups where garruk is really good
Mirror, miracles

How do you want to win? What are the weaknesses of your deck post sideboard? Garruk in my sideboard plays the way I want to play and win with shardless, but that's not to say there are many other ways to go about it!

[Spaker]

Thank you for your explanations. I get a better a better understanding of your choice.

The list that I'm currently testing is more control oriented with 3 Liliana, 2 Toxic Deluge, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Ponder and no Hymn or no Strix (I'm not sold on it, but I wanted to give it a try). In this particular configuration, slamming a Jace onto a fresh toxic-deluge cleared battlefield (a lot like Miracles with Terminus) is what you're looking for if the game isn't going your way. But indeed, it joins your fact that Jace is way better in Miracles than in "agressives" Shardless lists. I also faced several times Shardless and BUG Delver in the last event where the 4 CMC of Jace broke multiple games. But Garruk would have been just as efficient.

I'm still looking for the right 75' as I don't know if I want to play a more control deck (like the above) or an agressive midrange strategy. The list of SCG Baltimore is also attractive with the inclusion of Leovold and Master of the Wild Hunt.

[minyafriend]

just be careful if youre thinking about master of the wild hunt as its bad against swords to plowshares and lightning bolt. i think that johnathan orr himself says its mainly for the mirror, infect and elves.

[btm10]

Thank you for your explanations. I get a better a better understanding of your choice.

The list that I'm currently testing is more control oriented with 3 Liliana, 2 Toxic Deluge, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Ponder and no Hymn or no Strix (I'm not sold on it, but I wanted to give it a try). In this particular configuration, slamming a Jace onto a fresh toxic-deluge cleared battlefield (a lot like Miracles with Terminus) is what you're looking for if the game isn't going your way. But indeed, it joins your fact that Jace is way better in Miracles than in "agressives" Shardless lists. I also faced several times Shardless and BUG Delver in the last event where the 4 CMC of Jace broke multiple games. But Garruk would have been just as efficient.

The Planeswalker-heavy, no Hymn/no Strix-style lists are very good for some local metas (typically those with lots of midrange decks and Miracles), but I wouldn't try it in a large meta. You're giving up a lot game 1 against Delver and combo.



I'm still looking for the right 75' as I don't know if I want to play a more control deck (like the above) or an agressive midrange strategy. The list of SCG Baltimore is also attractive with the inclusion of Leovold and Master of the Wild Hunt.

If you're looking for an aggressive midrange strategy in BUG colors, I'd probably just play BUG Delver. I also haven't been thrilled with Leovold in testing, for what it's worth. He's really powerful, but the deck already has a lot of 3 CMC creatures that generate value.


There's never a moment where I wish I had jace in my 75. Jace is definitely more powerful than sylvan ina card by card comparison but definitely a slower card. in my opinion the meta right now is just too unfriendly to a four drop that doesn't immediately win you the game or stop them from winning the game. I think jace does this more so in miracles but less so in shardless. Reb/pyro effects are every where and there are flying, hasting and/or unblockable creatures everywhere. If anything I think he's probably more comfortable as a sideboard card against the mirror or miracles and then I'd rather have garruk relentless. Now I do agree that because the reb effects are coming in against you you might want to force them to stretch the use they get out of that spell by having more more powerful blue spells eventually one is going to stick and win you the game I personally would just rather have a more powerful non blue spell/permanent that is more difficult to interact with and actively wins you the game by commanding the board with creatures or puts many magic cards into your hand turns before jace will.

Matchups where sylvan is better than jace
D+t
maverick
Matchups where jace is just bad most of the time
All delver decks
Elves
Matchups where jace is really good
Mirror, miracles
Matchups where garruk is really good
Mirror, miracles

How do you want to win? What are the weaknesses of your deck post sideboard? Garruk in my sideboard plays the way I want to play and win with shardless, but that's not to say there are many other ways to go about it!

I actually think that Jace is better than Sylvan Library against Maverick, but that's admittedly a corner case. Having been on both sides of the Red Blast vs. Jace debate, I think that Miracles is way too good at finding the blasts when they need them to not just play more blue bombs to overwhelm them. I have Jace and Garruk in my sideboard (and a Clique and a Crucible) in my sideboard right now for grindy matchups, but I'm very happy with the total package.

[Spaker71]

If you're looking for an aggressive midrange strategy in BUG colors, I'd probably just play BUG Delver. I also haven't been thrilled with Leovold in testing, for what it's worth. He's really powerful, but the deck already has a lot of 3 CMC creatures that generate value.

Sorry if I expressed myself poorly : I'm looking for the right list of Shardless BUG (As far as I can tell, I don't like playing a deck with delver. It's just not my thing. But indeed, your suggestion is relevant) because I feel it is the right shell for me.

I played a more standard version for a year with 2 Strix, 2 Hymn, 2 Liliana, only one Toxic maindeck and no Sylvan Library. I did some top 8 with it and I have to say that it's nice to have a chance against a large variety of decks. But I found myself struggling mostly against combo (especially Elves) and the others MU like D&T (before Sanctum Prelate, Thalia V2 etc.), MUD, Delver-based decks, Miracles etc. were better but still hard to win. Therefore, I wanted to look at other strategy, including the heavy planeswalker. You're right : this specific build fights the game 1 against combo with the minimum defense (DRS, FOW) and rely on massive sideboard options to win G2 and G3 with discard, Meddling mage etc.

Today I've tasted those two strategies and I'm not sure which way to go, but I'm definitely eager to read about the tastes and deck-choice of others players and share about it, like with the list of minyafriend without any Jaces.

I'm gonna test Leovold too. Even if he costs 3 and doesn't do much against some MU, the fact that he is blue means he can at least be pitched to FOW.

[btm10]

Definitely don't let my preferences stop you from trying things, I was just sharing my own experiences with the deck. My current maindeck is only 4 cards off from minyafriend's: -1Jitte, -1 Vision, -1 Liliana, -1 Delta, +1 Hymn, +1 Ponder, +1 Strix, +1 Tar Pit.

As for Elves and Death and Taxes, I think the best way to fight those decks is with two MD Deluges, Jitte in the 75 (the rest of your meta will have to dictate where) and Engineered Plague/Night of Souls' Betrayal in the board alongside 2-3 1-mana spot removal spells. Neither matchup is great, but my experience is that you can beat them if you want to, though generally you have to weaken yourself against Miracles or combo to accomplish that. I've found additional Planeswalkers to be pretty meh against both decks. They raise your curve and even Liliana, the Last Hope is just ok at managing their board if they successfully go wide, especially if D&T has Mother of Runes, Thalia, Crusader, or Flickerwisp. You really need the sweepers and Jitte to put those decks away.

I've found myself favored against Delver strategies and Miracles, heavily favored against MUD, and even-to-(slightly) favored against other midrange decks. If you're interested in going after Storm or Show and Tell-style combo decks, I do like hateful permanents as an option in addition to some MD discard.

Thalia, Heretic Cathar is a nightmare to play against before you have 4 lands in play, but there's unfortunately very little you can do about her short of radically redesigning the manabase.

[Spaker71]

As for Elves and Death and Taxes, I think the best way to fight those decks is with two MD Deluges, Jitte in the 75 (the rest of your meta will have to dictate where) and Engineered Plague/Night of Souls' Betrayal in the board alongside 2-3 1-mana spot removal spells [...] You really need the sweepers and Jitte to put those decks away.

Since I tried the heavy planeswalker/Toxic build, my MU against Elves is indeed far better. I also have Nosb in SB and one STP (not sold on that either). I did not have the chance to compete against D&T 2.0 but as you mentionned, it should also be more balanced.

I don't know about the Jitte though. I do like the power of the equipment, but doesn't it seem contradictory to play the "sweeper role" (I mean in this specific build, but maybe you were suggesting another approach) while playing tools that require creatures ? Usually (especially regarding the Elves MU, but also in the others) I'm playing Toxic at 2pv to bury others DRS etc, cleaning my own board at the same time (shardless/DRS... it hurts every time). Therefore, beside Tarmogoyf, I can't see another creature that could carry a Jitte and I'm asking myself if it's enough to exploit the value of it. But maybe I'm wrong, I imagine that the sequencing becomes also entirely different. I would like to clarify that this is just an "out of experience" reflection, I did not properly tested the tech. Obviously it's far better in your build and minyafriend's with 2/3 Strix and 1/2 Creeping Tar Pit than in the one I'm trying.

[btm10]

The value of your creatures is almost always lower than the value of their board, even with Jitte. You're also never forced to use Deluge when it's to your disadvantage. D&T really struggles to beat Deluge followed up with a substantial threat, and Jitte is both a threat and a sweeper. Engineered Plague and Night of Souls' Betrayal are much narrower and harder to cast.

[minyafriend]

btm10, im curious how much you like running 3 ancestral and if you really think thats the right number then why? ive gone back to testing a one of ponder and really like it as another 1 drop but at the same time the list is really tight and im always looking for ways to cram more shit in here. i like the ponder a lot im gonna keep running it for a bit, i cut the 3rd liliana for it. i like it because it ups the blue count, adds more to do on turn 1, digs cheaply when you need to find something bad... not much negative stuff to say about it its a great card haha.

one thing ive been on the fence about this week is life from the loam. it saves me some games against delver lists and other greedy mana base wasteland decks, usually just casting it and getting 3 lands back is strong enough without need to dredge it til waaay later if you have stabilized and can waste them out, but this is not always what you want to spend your time doing! i dont think its assertive enough in the slot that i put it in which was nihil spellbomb. spellbomb feels better than loam against aggro loam and lands. the loam/spellbomb could also be a 3rd surgical extraction which could just be better against more decks that are bad matchups (ant sneak and show reanimator).... delver matchups dont necessarily need more help being an already ok matchup where lands is the real problem. how much sideboard space do we want to give to that deck? just hope to dodge it or respect it with specific sideboard cards? what do yall think?

as far as comparing deluge to engineered plague and night of souls betrayal while they look like similar effects the latter two are tools for different decks than deluge i think.
nosb and plague are somewhat better supplementally to delgue in the elves matchup being sticky and causing the game to stop on their side until they can deal with it and deluge is basically just buying you time to pressure til they reup. nosb stops infect in its tracks until they find a corruptor (2/2) if they have it and engineered plague only hits 1 type and deluge can only interact with them on your turn which is when you want to interact with them but it leaves their inkmoth a threat left on their turn. nosb stops alurens combo and engineered plague can too if you name human (hits both recruiters) or harpy, where deluge is again clearing the board so your threat (hopefully tarmogoyf) can pressure them. also nosb is relevant in miracles stopping clique snapcaster and monk tokens where engineered plague would stop wizards or monks (2vs1), dread of night would only stop one and you should probably take out toxic deluge anyways.

matchups where nosb doesnt really look better than deluge to me are ones that fight your mana production with wasteland stifle port, then try to keep your spells from resolving with daze and spell pierce i dont think those are the matchups where you want to fight over sticking an enchantment that doesnt shut off absolutely all their win cons.

[weiuweiu]

I guess people will be more ready for my 2 maindeck leovold emissary of trest now.

He seems to be in almost all shardless decks at GP chiba thats performing good.
Had a nice time with many free wins thanks him since Conspiracy. I guess the brainstorming with him out will for the most part be a distant memory! Haha.

Time to find another card people will not be ready for!

[btm10]

I guess people will be more ready for my 2 maindeck leovold emissary of trest now.

He seems to be in almost all shardless decks at GP chiba thats performing good.
Had a nice time with many free wins thanks him since Conspiracy. I guess the brainstorming with him out will for the most part be a distant memory! Haha.

Time to find another card people will not be ready for!

He definitely made appearances, but I honestly wasn't very impressed by him in testing or on camera at the GP. I (and most other people in the States, it seems) have been moving towards leaner Shardless lists; I'm especially skeptical of adding more 3-drops since most people are already running 6-10. Maybe if you're cutting Liliana or running a BUG midrange or control list without Shardless Agent, but Leovold was just too slow for the effect in my testing.


btm10, im curious how much you like running 3 ancestral and if you really think thats the right number then why? ive gone back to testing a one of ponder and really like it as another 1 drop but at the same time the list is really tight and im always looking for ways to cram more shit in here. i like the ponder a lot im gonna keep running it for a bit, i cut the 3rd liliana for it. i like it because it ups the blue count, adds more to do on turn 1, digs cheaply when you need to find something bad... not much negative stuff to say about it its a great card haha.

I like Ponder a lot. It goes a long way toward making sure you draw the right half of your deck, and gives you another one mana play, I think of it as going in the 4th Vision slot. Whether you want the actual 4th copy of Vision is another question. I think it's only good if you expect a lot of Miracles or the mirror, and one of those is already favorable and the other is so high variance that any gain is going to be limited. Like I was saying above about Leovold, I like minimizing slow and clunky things in Shardless and flooding out on Vision is one of the clunkiest things that can happen to you. I think the risks of drawing it in the late game far exceed a slightly higher chance of having it in your opener or Cascading into it.



one thing ive been on the fence about this week is life from the loam. it saves me some games against delver lists and other greedy mana base wasteland decks, usually just casting it and getting 3 lands back is strong enough without need to dredge it til waaay later if you have stabilized and can waste them out, but this is not always what you want to spend your time doing! i dont think its assertive enough in the slot that i put it in which was nihil spellbomb. spellbomb feels better than loam against aggro loam and lands. the loam/spellbomb could also be a 3rd surgical extraction which could just be better against more decks that are bad matchups (ant sneak and show reanimator).... delver matchups dont necessarily need more help being an already ok matchup where lands is the real problem. how much sideboard space do we want to give to that deck? just hope to dodge it or respect it with specific sideboard cards? what do yall think?

As you sad, you either have to have a very clear plan for beating Lands or hope to dodge it. Between that and black red Reanimator I've simply gone to three copies of Leyline e of the Void. I think the opportunity cost of a reactive card like Surgical Extraction is too high given that we're not cutting Shardless Agent in the matchup. Reanimator only makes that choice easier because of Chancellor of the Annex. As for Loam, I think land recursion is only good enough to include in really protracted matchups like Miracles, the mirror, and 4c Loam, but I think that Crucible is better than Loam because it can't be Cascaded into and doesn't eat mana over and over again. I'd like it against D&T too if they didn't bring in Rest in Peace.



as far as comparing deluge to engineered plague and night of souls betrayal while they look like similar effects the latter two are tools for different decks than deluge i think.
nosb and plague are somewhat better supplementally to delgue in the elves matchup being sticky and causing the game to stop on their side until they can deal with it and deluge is basically just buying you time to pressure til they reup. nosb stops infect in its tracks until they find a corruptor (2/2) if they have it and engineered plague only hits 1 type and deluge can only interact with them on your turn which is when you want to interact with them but it leaves their inkmoth a threat left on their turn. nosb stops alurens combo and engineered plague can too if you name human (hits both recruiters) or harpy, where deluge is again clearing the board so your threat (hopefully tarmogoyf) can pressure them. also nosb is relevant in miracles stopping clique snapcaster and monk tokens where engineered plague would stop wizards or monks (2vs1), dread of night would only stop one and you should probably take out toxic deluge anyways.

matchups where nosb doesnt really look better than deluge to me are ones that fight your mana production with wasteland stifle port, then try to keep your spells from resolving with daze and spell pierce i dont think those are the matchups where you want to fight over sticking an enchantment that doesnt shut off absolutely all their win cons.

There's a lot to respond to here, so I'm going to summarize why I just run Jitte rather than either Enchantment. In addition to being able to amortize the 4 mana to cast and equip it over 2 turns, but once you get counters it's basically Curse of Death's Hold. It's good against every creature deck in the format, and I bring it in against Miracles in lieu of NoSB or Engineered Plague.

[Krimson Viper]

Thoughts on the possible spoiled card:

Yahenni's Expertise
2BB
Sorcery
All creatures get -3/-3 until end of turn.
You may cast a card from your hand with converted mana cost 3 or less without paying its mana cost.

Thinking about removing Jace for it. Another wipe for D&T, and it doesn't kill your life. Can also be used against some aggro decks as well. Nice stabilizing card.

[Hrothgar]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/128/318/636160307610538512.png

Imho this is a very nice reset.
This card may play similar to cascade: Yahenni's -> Agent -> something.
Maybe this card can found a place in our 15's.
Very nice.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm pretty sure the -3/-3 effect is bad. Kills everything in this deck not named Tarmogoyf (most of the time...), doesn't kill any big eldrazi, Angel tokens, and that's without any thought put in to what it's bad against. I'd rather play Languish, but I'm pretty sure that Deluge is still just better.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[btm10]

I'm going to test it. At first glance it seems better than one of the two Deluges in my 75. Deluging for 4+ is often miserable, and being able to extract 7 mana of value might offset 2BB upfront. This into Agent into... anything but Decay? Or this into Liliana against Angler + nonsense?Sign me up.

[Krimson Viper]

I'm pretty sure the -3/-3 effect is bad. Kills everything in this deck not named Tarmogoyf (most of the time...), doesn't kill any big eldrazi, Angel tokens, and that's without any thought put in to what it's bad against. I'd rather play Languish, but I'm pretty sure that Deluge is still just better.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

There are times where this deck wants a board wipe, so it killing our things doesn't matter so much. Why does this deck run a wipe if it's concerned about its things dying. It kills plenty of creatures and it's another varying cost to counteract different CMC preventing things. Sure top decking this instead of Deluge when you can pay the life for Deluge can be bad, but top decking Deluge when you can't pay life is just as bad anyway. The card's top end has a lot of potential and I don't see where it's low end is any worse than some of our cards we run that don't have nearly a high of a ceiling as this card.

I'll test this and replace Jace.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure. Do your thing, but it's not a very playable card imo. Costs too much/doesn't do enough to be all that relevant against the matchups it needs to be good against: DnT and Eldrazi.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[drocker23]

this card is strictly worse than damnation when you don't have a creature card in hand. and if you're not playing creatures because of this card then you're losing your advantage. i see this card as nothing more than "cute" because of it's potential plays with shardless agent. might be, MIGHT BE, a sideboard card vs heavy mentor miracles lists but then again, bug already has a pretty good matchup vs miracles anyway.

[Whitefaces]

this card is strictly worse than damnation when you don't have a creature card in hand. and if you're not playing creatures because of this card then you're losing your advantage. i see this card as nothing more than "cute" because of it's potential plays with shardless agent. might be, MIGHT BE, a sideboard card vs heavy mentor miracles lists but then again, bug already has a pretty good matchup vs miracles anyway.

It lets you cast any card, not just creatures. So you can cast an Ancestral Vision, Liliana etc off it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Had it been confirmed, even? There's a period missing at the end of the last sentence and a couple other things (text size, the writing in the foil mark at the bottom) that has me raising eyebrows... Anyway, how does this work? Is the you may cast a trigger upon this being cast, because if it is, then let's say you cast shardless off it. Cast trigger resolves hitting a Baleful Strix or drs. Both creatures resolve and then both immediately die? Does the -3/-3 happen first and then cast? When are the negs applied? I guess I need to know more before I judge it, but I still am certain that -3/-3 isn't good enough.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[HSCK]

It's a mock up, and the -3 effect happens first.

[btm10]

Sure. Do your thing, but it's not a very playable card imo. Costs too much/doesn't do enough to be all that relevant against the matchups it needs to be good against: DnT and Eldrazi.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

This kills every creature in D&T, and Deluge is ok against Eldrazi, but far from amazing. I'm not saying that this will revolutionize deckbuilding in BUG, but it's definitely testable. It might even give a non-Shardless shell the velocity it needs to competw with Shardless.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This kills every creature in D&T, and Deluge is ok against Eldrazi, but far from amazing. I'm not saying that this will revolutionize deckbuilding in BUG, but it's definitely testable. It might even give a non-Shardless shell the velocity it needs to competw with Shardless.

You're correct, it does kill everything in DnT, but it costs 4 against DnT. Yes, you get value, but only if you get to cast it.

-3/-3 doesn't kill a TKS, Smasher, or any big Eldrazi. That seems like a big deal.

[btm10]

You're correct, it does kill everything in DnT, but it costs 4 against DnT. Yes, you get value, but only if you get to cast it.

-3/-3 doesn't kill a TKS, Smasher, or any big Eldrazi. That seems like a big deal.

You probably aren't winning against D&T if you can't get to 2BB (or 3BB) main phase. Tarmogoyf remains bigger than any commonly played Eldrazi except Oblivion Sower, and the Eldrazi matchup is still significantly in Shardless's favor without Deluge. I'd probably swap Expertise for Deluge out of the board (or leave Deluge in rather than boarding in Expertise) against Eldrazi, but it's not like Deluge is thrilling against them, and Expertise does kill Matter Reshaper (which is their best 4-of), small Endless Ones, and Eldrazi Mimic.

[drocker23]

It lets you cast any card, not just creatures. So you can cast an Ancestral Vision, Liliana etc off it.

hmm....i missed that when reading the card. thanks for the heads up. better than i gave it credit for because i thought it could only play creatures......still not really sure that this is a card you'll want in shardless bug

[CutthroatCasual]

It also doesn't kill 4/4 Angels whereas paying 4 life with Deluge can.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That's been mentioned but also rather irrelevant because as you know, a Miracles player worth his salt will not open themselves up to sorcery speed removal.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[btm10]

hmm....i missed that when reading the card. thanks for the heads up. better than i gave it credit for because i thought it could only play creatures......still not really sure that this is a card you'll want in shardless bug

The primary downside I see relative to Deluge is the cost. My instinct is that you want a 1/1 split with Deluge, and I'm not sure how that works main/side.


It also doesn't kill 4/4 Angels whereas paying 4 life with Deluge can.

This is the only creature that I'm troubled by its being out of range. I think EOT and midcombat Entreats are much more problematic and once they've resolved the damage is usually done. This might change if Expertise was an Instant, but if you accept that Expertise is net +EV relative to a second Deluge against Delver, Elves, D&T, and Eldrazi I don't think being worse against Sorcery-speed Entreat is enough to disqualify it from testing.

[drocker23]

That's been mentioned but also rather irrelevant because as you know, a Miracles player worth his salt will not open themselves up to sorcery speed removal.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

but sometimes it might take multiple attack phases to win. perhaps during a previous turn, the angels were made to block your opponent's creatures. they could take a hit, then untap and cast Toxic Deluge or Maelstrom Pulse. it's not necessarily a mistake made by the other player. sometimes, you're forced into these type of situations. just hope you have a way to stop the pulse or the deluge afterwards.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure, it still feels corner-case, but you are right.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Whitefaces]

I've been playing a fair bit of Bant recently and have been really impressed with Noble Hierarch and Leovold, I wonder if they can fit in the Shardless shell. While Hierarch isn't a great cascade, what she does for the rest of the deck might be worth it.

I have something like this in mind.

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

2 Umezawa’s Jitte

3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

[btm10]

I think Leovold (and Hierarch) are fine cards, but the Shardless shell already has enough expensive value guys and mana creatures. I've been thinking of Leovold as the centerpiece of a non-Shardless BUG deck, but I haven't liked him in Shardless.

[Whitefaces]

I think Leovold (and Hierarch) are fine cards, but the Shardless shell already has enough expensive value guys and mana creatures. I've been thinking of Leovold as the centerpiece of a non-Shardless BUG deck, but I haven't liked him in Shardless.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Leovold, he generates value in a very different way than Shardless Agent and is a proactively good card in the maindeck for combo. He's also fantastic vs Lands, which is a pretty tough matchup. You may be right though, maybe he's best in a non-Shardless shell. He's breathed a fresh breath of air into BUG decks anyway which is exciting.

But I have to disagree that Shardless has enough mana creatures, in my experience it's the opposite. Why I've moved away from the deck is I feel like it's about half a turn behind the format at the moment. While Hierarch is a bad cascade, smoothing out clunky draws is potentially what the deck wants. I'll try and get some games in with this build and see how it goes.

[btm10]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Leovold, he generates value in a very different way than Shardless Agent and is a proactively good card in the maindeck for combo. He's also fantastic vs Lands, which is a pretty tough matchup. You may be right though, maybe he's best in a non-Shardless shell. He's breathed a fresh breath of air into BUG decks anyway which is exciting.

But I have to disagree that Shardless has enough mana creatures, in my experience it's the opposite. Why I've moved away from the deck is I feel like it's about half a turn behind the format at the moment. While Hierarch is a bad cascade, smoothing out clunky draws is potentially what the deck wants. I'll try and get some games in with this build and see how it goes.


I'm interested in hearing about your results. I've actually been very happy with the deck lately, but it seems that we've approached the clunk problem in different ways. I've leaned more heavily on cantrips and on optimizing my curve/mana utilization. I've also been mulliganing fairly aggressively. I definitely think the extra mana dorks are worthwhile once you go down the Leovold path since you'll have a harder time realizing the CA from cards you draw without the extra mana. Exalted is also attractive.

[drocker23]

But Sharless BUG has plenty of mana. In fact it sometimes has too much (draw 3 lands off Ancestral Vision anyone?). If you want extra mana you should just play the 23rd land. it's more solid and consistent than another mana dork that can be killed. you don't want to play anything you don't want to cascade into. that's why discard is played at low numbers (because it's not always relevant to what's on the board) and also a lot of times cascading into Deathrite Shaman just feels like the worst thing you could cascade into (assuming all cards in your deck are live during that point in time).

Card selection in shardless bug should always be thought of as how often do I want to cascade into "blank". it's about tuning the deck towards specific matchups to make your cascades more consistent. think you're playing against more creature decks? play less visions or forces and play more strixes. think you're going to play against a lot of control and combo? add more discard and draw spells like Thoughtseize and Sylvan Library.

The same thought process should be considered while sideboarding. Don't sideboard in anything you don't want to cascade into. and don't leave Baleful Strix in against Miracles. I see people do that a lot because it "draws a card". It's bad. Don't do it. Also, if you're leaving in Force of Will post board, count your blue cards to make sure you have enough. with 4 Force of Wills you want a minimum of 18 blue cards (including the Force of Wills). if you don't have at least 18 after sideboarding, you may want to consider shaving some number of them. This can be tricky since a lot of our sideboard cards aren't actually blue cards.

[btm10]

But Sharless BUG has plenty of mana. In fact it sometimes has too much (draw 3 lands off Ancestral Vision anyone?). If you want extra mana you should just play the 23rd land. it's more solid and consistent than another mana dork that can be killed. you don't want to play anything you don't want to cascade into. that's why discard is played at low numbers (because it's not always relevant to what's on the board) and also a lot of times cascading into Deathrite Shaman just feels like the worst thing you could cascade into (assuming all cards in your deck are live during that point in time).

While I agree with the sentimemt (and overall approach to the deck), I think you're not distinguishing between lands as mana sources and Deathrite and Hierarch as mana sources. Hierarch and Deathrite get worse as he game goes on, but they're never dead theway a land is. Exalted is meaningful text no matter whatthe opponent is doing, and Deathrite is still Deathrite. I think that there's a strong argument for at least a fifth mana dork if you're adding Leovold to the main since he's slow on his own and unlike Agent Leovold requires that you actually pay for the extra cards you draw. Sometimes Cascade fails you, but that's a risk of playing the deck.



Card selection in shardless bug should always be thought of as how often do I want to cascade into "blank". it's about tuning the deck towards specific matchups to make your cascades more consistent.

You've got a good general principle here, but there are some cards that are locks: if you want to run zero Decay, you probably just want to play another deck. There's also the converse of your statement: sometimes you run cards that cost 3 just to make sure you can't Cascade into them but you still want that effect in your deck, and then there's Vision itself, which is a horrible late-game topdeck but an excellent Cascade pretty much all the time. I'm also not allergic to certian comditional cards in Shardless. When various TNN Blade decks were common, Golgari Charm pulled its weight purely on flexibility: an answer to TNN, a counter for Supreme Verdict, Enchantment removal, and a hoser for Elves and D&T in one sideboard slot. Did you sometimes Cascade into it on a empty board or when your opponent just had a Batterskull or Stoneforge Mystic? Sure, but it was totally worth having in the deck. Similarly, I was very high on Dimir Charm before Eldrazi happened. The cards you wanted to counter were overwhelmingly Sorceries anyway, and being removal for most of the widely played creatures in the format meant that it wasn't dead in fair matchups. Sometimes it was a low value Cascade hit, but that's a price worth paying. Flusterstorm is also somewhat common, and Surgical Extraction is far and away the most commonly played Graveyard hate in successful lists. Both are usually mediocre to bad Cascades, but running them isn't strictly incorrect.

[Whitefaces]

You've got a good general principle here, but there are some cards that are locks: if you want to run zero Decay, you probably just want to play another deck. There's also the converse of your statement: sometimes you run cards that cost 3 just to make sure you can't Cascade into them but you still want that effect in your deck, and then there's Vision itself, which is a horrible late-game topdeck but an excellent Cascade pretty much all the time. I'm also not allergic to certian comditional cards in Shardless. When various TNN Blade decks were common, Golgari Charm pulled its weight purely on flexibility: an answer to TNN, a counter for Supreme Verdict, Enchantment removal, and a hoser for Elves and D&T in one sideboard slot. Did you sometimes Cascade into it on a empty board or when your opponent just had a Batterskull or Stoneforge Mystic? Sure, but it was totally worth having in the deck. Similarly, I was very high on Dimir Charm before Eldrazi happened. The cards you wanted to counter were overwhelmingly Sorceries anyway, and being removal for most of the widely played creatures in the format meant that it wasn't dead in fair matchups. Sometimes it was a low value Cascade hit, but that's a price worth paying. Flusterstorm is also somewhat common, and Surgical Extraction is far and away the most commonly played Graveyard hate in successful lists. Both are usually mediocre to bad Cascades, but running them isn't strictly incorrect.

Agree. In principle these rules are solid, I think I'm less inclined to play reactive cards like Golgari Charm than you are, but there are certainly matchups/metas where it's OK to do so. I've seen a pretty big uptick in TNNs recently, so Charm may have a slot. Other options I'm considering are Diabolic Edict and Engineered Plague. I'm really liking the idea of overloading on Edicts in the SB, probably 3. It's good vs TNN/Angler/Goyf/Mongoose from Delver decks, Marit Lage from Lands, Eldrazi etc.


While I agree with the sentimemt (and overall approach to the deck), I think you're not distinguishing between lands as mana sources and Deathrite and Hierarch as mana sources. Hierarch and Deathrite get worse as he game goes on, but they're never dead the way a land is. Exalted is meaningful text no matter what the opponent is doing, and Deathrite is still Deathrite. I think that there's a strong argument for at least a fifth mana dork if you're adding Leovold to the main since he's slow on his own and unlike Agent Leovold requires that you actually pay for the extra cards you draw. Sometimes Cascade fails you, but that's a risk of playing the deck.

My thoughts exactly! Noble may be a lousy cascade on occasion, but there is a high enough reward in my mind to justify trying it. I got in a bunch of games with the deck over the weekend with some friends and it felt really smooth. I cascaded into Noble once and it was still fine. Having additional creatures, as small as she is, with Jitte came up a couple of times too.

Leo also gives us the nice option of playing some Mindbreak Traps for storm. Drawing 10+ cards off Tendrils should hopefully find one.

[drocker23]

the only justification to running that many 1 mana creatures would be if you're running Opposition. BUG Opposition is a deck that's popped up here lately. it may be more of what you're looking for.

[Whitefaces]

the only justification to running that many 1 mana creatures would be if you're running Opposition. BUG Opposition is a deck that's popped up here lately. it may be more of what you're looking for.

I disagree, Leovold on turn two is insanely powerful against the whole format, he demands an answer in so many matchups. Additionally Agent or Strix/Goyf + Wasteland are all strong plays as well as simply being able to play around Daze vs Delver decks. There's also ramping into Jace and Jitte + equip.

I realise Noble is not the norm and she may end up not being the direction this deck wants, but I still think with the printing of Leovold it's an avenue that's worth exploring. I'm playing the additional dorks for tempo, the card disadvantage is recouped easily with this deck.

[btm10]

I realise Noble is not the norm and she may end up not being the direction this deck wants, but I still think with the printing of Leovold it's an avenue that's worth exploring. I'm playing the additional dorks for tempo, the card disadvantage is recouped easily with this deck.

My suspicion is that Leovold BUG is more of a parallel BUG deck than it is an outgrowth of Shardless, but I think that's where you gain the most from Hierarch as an additional mana dork. Not making black is a pretty big drawback for Shardless as its typically built, but I think that Leovold encourages and enables more of an aggro-control approach since both halves of his ability facilitate protecting the queen. I'm liking him as a 1-of in my sideboard for grindy matchups, but don't think I should be trying to open up MD slots for him.


Agree. In principle these rules are solid, I think I'm less inclined to play reactive cards like Golgari Charm than you are, but there are certainly matchups/metas where it's OK to do so. I've seen a pretty big uptick in TNNs recently, so Charm may have a slot. Other options I'm considering are Diabolic Edict and Engineered Plague. I'm really liking the idea of overloading on Edicts in the SB, probably 3. It's good vs TNN/Angler/Goyf/Mongoose from Delver decks, Marit Lage from Lands, Eldrazi etc.

Leo also gives us the nice option of playing some Mindbreak Traps for storm. Drawing 10+ cards off Tendrils should hopefully find one.
I'm running a sideboard Deluge over Charm right now because of how often I want to cast it for more than 1.

I really like Edicts, but I also really like having 1-mana removal, so my sideboard spot removal is 2 Disfigure + 1 Dismember. In a metagame with less D&T I'd run an Edict or two, but killing a turn 1 Mother of Runes is too important to cut a 1 cmc removal spell for a 2 cmc removal spell.

[minyafriend]

What're y'alls plans against grixis delver? The deck has been giving me fits lately! When I'm on the draw i feel like I'm always on the back foot and that shardless is a deck that's at least a turn or two too slow. On the play this feels much different. I'm siding out all my hymns all my lilianas (whether they're on pyromancer or not) and 1 force for a disfigure golgari charm toxic deluge maelstrom pulse and murderous cut. Playing around stifle, daze and for haymakers like maelstrom pulse playing around spell pierce gives them so much time to do damage it feels miraculous to stabilize lately. The two strixes (wish i had more, leovold is in the 3rd strix slot but he seems powerful in this matchup too), goyfs and maindeck jitte seem like my important cards.
What do ya think?

[btm10]

What're y'alls plans against grixis delver? The deck has been giving me fits lately! When I'm on the draw i feel like I'm always on the back foot and that shardless is a deck that's at least a turn or two too slow. On the play this feels much different. I'm siding out all my hymns all my lilianas (whether they're on pyromancer or not) and 1 force for a disfigure golgari charm toxic deluge maelstrom pulse and murderous cut. Playing around stifle, daze and for haymakers like maelstrom pulse playing around spell pierce gives them so much time to do damage it feels miraculous to stabilize lately. The two strixes (wish i had more, leovold is in the 3rd strix slot but he seems powerful in this matchup too), goyfs and maindeck jitte seem like my important cards.
What do ya think?

Pulse is pretty mediun against them, but I would never board Liliana out - she's great in that matchup, especially if they aren't playing Pyromancer. The basic gameplan is to overload on removal and Jund them out. A typical game 2 plan (on the draw, with them having Stifle and Young Pyromancer) is:

-3 Hymn to Tourach
+2 Disfigure
+1 Dismember

I'm running a pretty hostile maindeck (1/1/1 Deluge/Pulse/Jitte) but if you're running something clunkier or with more discard/Jace then I'd look to cut those for more removal. Hymn is pretty solid on the play against the Stifle version. I wouldn't cut Forces simply because you're fine trading cards for time in that matchup. Prioritize killing Delvers, then Deathrites, then Anglers, and finally Young Pyromancers. It takes a lot of Elementals to get around even 2-3 X/2s, and Goyfs should be bigger than Anglers most of the time.

[minyafriend]

My main is the same with the jitte/deluge/pulse so after board I have 2 deluge 2 pulse with pulse and murderous cut neon my answers to gurmag. I'll test keeping the lilianas in this week if anything it's more removal but you rely so heavily on a board wipe to get good use out of her.

[btm10]

My main is the same with the jitte/deluge/pulse so after board I have 2 deluge 2 pulse with pulse and murderous cut neon my answers to gurmag. I'll test keeping the lilianas in this week if anything it's more removal but you rely so heavily on a board wipe to get good use out of her.

What do you do in the following situation:

You resolve Liliana on the following board in game 1:

You: Shardless Agent, Tarmogoyf (4/5, no good way for opponent to shrink it), Deathrite Shaman, Bayou(untapped) Sea, Trop, Swamp, Vision on 3 counters, Hymn and Catacombs in hand, you're at 8 life.

Opponent: Deathrite, Young Pyromancer, 2 tokens, Gurmag Angler, 1 card in hand, Sea, Volc (both tapped), 14 life. They've cast one bolt.

[minyafriend]

+1 liliana discarding the land and leave up deathrite, although the land might have more utility than the hymn at this point. On upkeep check the graveyard to see if they could cast a gurmag off of the top with what's in their graveyard and use deathrite accordingly. if they attack with gurmag block with the shardless most likely growing goyf big enough to block gurmag profitabl in the following turns. You've stabilized somewhat and now try to resolve your ancestral.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What are the Tarmogoyf pumps; What's in the yard?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[btm10]

Those sorts of lines are what I've seen people screw up the most, so you're doing the right thing. I probably wouldn't bother activating Deathrite, but that's minor. You might be catching the wrong end of variance. The matchup is only slightly favorable ao it's entirely possible to lose.

[drocker23]

so it looks like Leovold is here to stay huh?

[btm10]

I'm considering him for the board, don't love him in the main unless you're cutting back on 3 mana removal like Pulse and Deluge.

[minyafriend]

i think we would be fools being in bug colors to not seriously think about running leovold in our 75s considering that he shuts off your opponents brainstorms and ponders (#1 and #4 of the top most cards in legacy right now) and then it makes wasteland (#2 most played card in legacy right now) less efficient. @btm i agree hes somewhat awkward in the 3 drop slot and also being all three colors, but i really do believe his pros outweigh his cons, ive been running him since he became legal and there has not been a moment where i felt like "what the hell is this doing here, i wish this were something else right now".

[Krimson Viper]

i think we would be fools being in bug colors to not seriously think about running leovold in our 75s considering that he shuts off your opponents brainstorms and ponders (#1 and #4 of the top most cards in legacy right now) and then it makes wasteland (#2 most played card in legacy right now) less efficient. @btm i agree hes somewhat awkward in the 3 drop slot and also being all three colors, but i really do believe his pros outweigh his cons, ive been running him since he became legal and there has not been a moment where i felt like "what the hell is this doing here, i wish this were something else right now".

Could you post your most recent list and success? Leovold intrigues me.

[minyafriend]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14310&d=285408&f=LE
Only 3 5-0 but plenty of 4-1 on mtgo.

[Deckerator]

Did you guys try to cut the "Shardless + Vision" package, playing 4xPonder and 3x Leovold in this deck?

[btm10]

At that point it just becomes BUG Midrange/Control, which has its own thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)).



http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14310&d=285408&f=LE
Only 3 5-0 but plenty of 4-1 on mtgo.

Your starting 60 is remarkably close to mine (I'm -1 Leovold, -1 Vision, -1 Delta, +1 Ponder, +1 Strix, +1 Hymn). It makes me think we might be approaching an optimal starting 60.

[femuca]

Hi you all guys!

I'm just testing this deck for a few weeks. Before I played Jund, but I allways wanted to play blue cards :p

I've read many posts from this theme and now I want to ask some questions. My meta is basically: elves, d&t, omnitell, reanimator, jund, UG infect and eldrazis.

1) Generally the list use to go with 4-5 discard slots: 2-3 tourach and 2 ts. I even read some players that use 4 discard slots with only tourach. But in my recent experience I believe tourach is powerful but has bad MU vs Reanimate based decks, where TS is better. So maybe 4 tourach is too much. Maybe 2/2 tourach/Ts. Opinions?

2) About counters, the list is generally low in blue cards. It use to go with 3-4 FOWs, but even knowing my heavy combo meta, 3 MD and 1 SB are a good numbers for FOW? What do you think about invasive surgery post board? Against elves is almost a win con. Maybe just one in side.

3) Jace... a 4 drop even thinking that is THE Jace who are talking about. It seems allways difficult to cast. Maybe a Ponder in this slot? Someone wrote many posts before about using 1 in place of 2...

4) At Chiba GP on top 45, TAKUYA OSAWA, used Glissa, the Traitor in SB. The idea was recurring dead Agents or Strix (depending on the MU). Is a real value for shardless BUG?

Thanks you guys!

[btm10]

My current maindeck is below.

Land (21)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures (15)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix


Draw/Manipulation (8)

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder

Interaction (14)

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil


I wouldn't run more than 4 discard spells maindeck in your meta, and would lean toward a 2/1 Hymn/Thoughtseize split. I wouldn't worry about Reanimator game 1 - you'll either have Deathrite and be able to defend it or you won't. My list has 20 blue cards, but you can get away with as few as 18 and still be likely enough to have one for Force. I don't think Invasive Surgery is good enough to justify inclusion, especially against Elves who can just grind you out if they don't Hoof you. Your meta is one where I'd probably pass on Jace entirely. Too many fast decks, and you really only want it against Jund, where it's just ok. For that meta, I'd go with my starting 60 and the following sideboard:

3 Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
1 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

There's a chance you might want to include a Murderous Cut as well, probably over the second Duress or the Clique.

[femuca]

My current maindeck is below.

Land (21)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures (15)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix


Draw/Manipulation (8)

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder

Interaction (14)

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil


I wouldn't run more than 4 discard spells maindeck in your meta, and would lean toward a 2/1 Hymn/Thoughtseize split. I wouldn't worry about Reanimator game 1 - you'll either have Deathrite and be able to defend it or you won't. My list has 20 blue cards, but you can get away with as few as 18 and still be likely enough to have one for Force. I don't think Invasive Surgery is good enough to justify inclusion, especially against Elves who can just grind you out if they don't Hoof you. Your meta is one where I'd probably pass on Jace entirely. Too many fast decks, and you really only want it against Jund, where it's just ok. For that meta, I'd go with my starting 60 and the following sideboard:

3 Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
1 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

There's a chance you might want to include a Murderous Cut as well, probably over the second Duress or the Clique.

Thanks btm10 for your response.

I've read that Garruk is a good SB slot for Miracles, but in general is a good card for wich MU's?

About a 1xGlissa, the traitor on SB for essencially recurring Strix, Agent or even Jitte. What do you think about it?

Finally, chatting last night with a player in Cockatrice, he told me that for the current meta a heavy removal BUG list would work better. Do you thinks he's ok?

[btm10]

I think that Glissa is just worse than Leovold for that slot. She isn't blue, doesn't do anything against combo, and is graveyard reliant unless you're just interested in the 3/3 first strike, deathtouch body.

Garruk is great in any matchup where you want to grind. He's also solid against D&T, Eldrazi, and a few other oddball matchups in narrower circumstances. Not being Decayable is a big deal also.

I'm not sure what you mean by removal-heavy. Can you elaborate? I wouldn't cut the MD discard, if that's what you're asking.

[TTX]

I think that Glissa is just worse than Leovold for that slot. She isn't blue, doesn't do anything against combo, and is graveyard reliant unless you're just interested in the 3/3 first strike, deathtouch body.

Glissa is only good for that. The rest of the card is incidental flavor text. She's a showstopper against Eldrazi, but that usually only fits as a sideboard fun of


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[drocker23]

been working on my shardless list for a while now. trying to add in so many more cards than the stock list I use to play.

1) how many discard spells do we want in our 75? (not including Liliana)
2) how many -1/-1 effects do we want in our 75?
3) how many GY hate cards (not including Deathrite Shaman) do we want in our 75?

it's these numbers i'm not quite sure about when trying to make cuts to add in more cards.

[minyafriend]

been working on my shardless list for a while now. trying to add in so many more cards than the stock list I use to play.

1) how many discard spells do we want in our 75? (not including Liliana)
2) how many -1/-1 effects do we want in our 75?
3) how many GY hate cards (not including Deathrite Shaman) do we want in our 75?

it's these numbers i'm not quite sure about when trying to make cuts to add in more cards.

1) depends on how much combo is in your meta but generally I would say at least 4-6 the variables being duress, thoughtseize, and hymn depending on what matchups you expect to see most.
2) I like 2 toxic deluge in 75 but golgari charm has so many other applications I can't see myself leaving home without it, just be wary of the matchups you side it in where it might be a bad cascade. Jitte and night of souls betrayal being meta dependent as well. I like jitte because it's a sub game of unfairness that shardless doesn't really get to dabble in very often(sure we draw cards but in a format of unfairness we are playing pretty vanilla). If you don't expect to see many creature matchups these effects are somewhat worthless. 1-4 -1/-1 fx
3)this is another very meta dependent question. If you expect a lot of graveyard decks I think you want a total of 8 cards(including shaman) to battle that strategy. The real questionn is what graveyard hate do you want? If the majority is bringing abrupt decay to deal with their anti combo hate then sideboard accordingly. Personally I think leyline is the way to go right now but I wouldn't fault anyone for playing surgical, grafdiggers or even spellbombs. I think some have more synergy in shardless and shore up some of its worse matchups but it truly depends on the expected meta so build accordingly, not every event is a gp or whatever, you should know your local meta well enough to sideboard adequately.

[btm10]

been working on my shardless list for a while now. trying to add in so many more cards than the stock list I use to play.

1) how many discard spells do we want in our 75? (not including Liliana)
2) how many -1/-1 effects do we want in our 75?
3) how many GY hate cards (not including Deathrite Shaman) do we want in our 75?

it's these numbers i'm not quite sure about when trying to make cuts to add in more cards.

1. I'd say 2-4 in the main, depending on how much and what combo you expect, and then going up to 6-8 postboard against combo. I think 4-6 MD was better a few years ago when Stoneforge Mystic decks were really common which made Thoughtseize better, but if there's so much combo that a fifth discard spell main feels right I'd lean toward playing BUG Delver, BUG Control, or 4C Delver.

2. I view these more as "expensive removal/sweeper" slots than -1/-1 effects, and 3-4 feels about right for the current meta. Right now I'm on 1/1/1 Deluge/Jitte/Pulse main and a second Deluge in the board, but Engineered Plague and Golgari Charm seem like strong options. D&T's move toward more X/2s like Prelate makes me a little less keen on straight -1/-1 effects, though. I'll be testing Yahenni's Expertise in one of these slots when it comes out.

3. Again, this is meta dependent. I agree with minyafriend on 7-8, and on Leyline probably being the best option, especially because of BR Reanimator. After that, Planar Void, Tormod's Crypt, and Nihil Spellbomb are are all strong options. I'm less high on Surgical, but it's not like it's useless.

[alrightgame]

Well, I tried asking reddit for information, and all I got was "Sultai Shardless sounds a lot like Shardless BUG".
I digress.

I am a long time Jund and 4c loam player - I've been successful with Jund at smaller events, but not at Legacy GPs. I want to come with a blue Jund deck for GP Louisville.

I've found the most important thing one can do, other than getting lucky and playing extremely tight, is to bring the correct cards for an open field.

So these are my questions - keep in mind, this should pertain to a completely random field:

Hymn or thoughtseize main deck?
Two or more baleful strix?
1 or 2 Jace?
Leyline of the Void or Surgical Extraction?
3rd wasteland?
2nd creeping tarpit?
What fair decks do you keep force of will in the main?
Are sideboard counters at all recommended?
Do I keep Hymn to Tourach for grindy games, even if often the end game tends to play off the topdeck?

Your sideboard guides (what you cut first, ignoring what could actually be in the sideboard) for the following:
Miracles, Delver, Storm, DnT, Eldrazi, Aluren, Rb reanimate, Lands

Example sideboard
2 thoughtseize
2 surgical extraction
2 Disfigure
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Dread of Night
1 Garruk Relentless

[ESG]

I am a long time Jund and 4c loam player - I've been successful with Jund at smaller events, but not at Legacy GPs. I want to come with a blue Jund deck for GP Louisville.

How much experience do you have with Shardless BUG? It's generally best to bring the deck you play most proficiently. If Jund is the deck you've had the most success with, that's probably the deck with the best EV for you. Sure, you can learn a new deck at a GP, but smaller events are better for that.


this should pertain to a completely random field

No field is completely random. Your request for sideboarding guides reveals the decks you believe will be heavily represented. These are what you should prepare for. I'll let the regular Shardless players give their opinions on the sideboarding guides.

[btm10]

How much experience do you have with Shardless BUG? It's generally best to bring the deck you play most proficiently. If Jund is the deck you've had the most success with, that's probably the deck with the best EV for you. Sure, you can learn a new deck at a GP, but smaller events are better for that.


I agree wih this. Even coming from Jund or Loam I'd caution against switching decks so close to the GP unless you've got a lot of free time to practice. Shardless is a BGx deck, but X is blue, so you pivot a lot between midrange, control, and even sometimes tempo approaches to games, and using cantrips effectively in Shardless is harder than in any deck but BUG Delver.

If I were going to the GP, I'd run the starting 60 at the further up the page and treat one of the expensive removal spells as a flex slot that could turn into Thoughtseize, the 4th Hymn or Strix, a 3rd Liliana (possibly the Last Hope), the 4th Vision, or stay the same. Fewer than 3 Wastelands is wrong, and I'm quite confident on this point. I'm a little more up in the air about the sideboard, but the following slots are locks:

3 Thoughtseize
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

The two remaining slots will be determined by where I think my biggest holes are. Given that I the top tables be mostly Death and Taxes, Sneak and Show, Delver, Eldrazi, Lands, BGx pseudo-mirrors, Aluren, Reanimator, and Miracles, the two remaining slots should address grinding (Miracles, D&T, 4c Delver, Lands, Aluren, BGx), small creature swarms (Aluren, Grixis Delver, Death and Taxes), and combo (Sneak, Reanimator, Lands). So to figure out how to maximize these slots, let's look at what's coming out.

Against Miracles:
-3 Baleful Strix
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Garruk Relentless

Toxic Deluge and Jitte aren't great here, but they're solid answers to Mentor, and Jitte is also good against Flash creatures. If one of the two slots goes to something good against Miracles, I'd drop Deluge for it.

Against Stifle Delver decks:
On the play: -4 Force of Will, +2 Disfiure, +1 Dismember, +1 Toxic Deluge
On the draw: -3 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Force of Will, +2 Disfigure, +1 Dismember, +1 Toxic Deluge OR same as on the draw if they board out countermagic.

Against Discard Delver Decks: -4 Force of Will, +2 Disfiure, +1 Dismember, +1 Garruk Relentless

Against Death and Taxes: -4 Force of Will, -2 Tarmogoyf/ Baleful Strix, -1 Ponder, +2 Disfigure, +1 Dismember, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Garruk Relentless

There's a reasonable case here for cutting a Deathrite and a third Goyf/Strix for Thoughtseizes or one or both of the two flex slots. Goyf is actually very mediocre postboard when D&T has access to 4 Rest in Peace, and Strix does very little except carry Jitte, which is far and away the best card in the matchup. If both cards were creatures or a creature and a second Jitte, I'd cut all 4 Goyfs for both flex slots. Cutting Ponder is somewhat counterintuitive, but playing cards to nit affect the board in this matchup is a surefire way to lose.

Against Lands: -3 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Toxic Deluge, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, +3 Leyline of the Void, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Null Rod

Null Rod is surprisingly good here, as Lands is often hard up for colored mana. I'd cut Goyfs for a second Needle or a Vendilion Clique here if those were he flex slots. Needle stops almost everything Lands is trying to accomplish, and Clique is one of the best ways to buy yourself a reprieve from Punishing Fire or Loam. Crucible of Worlds is an easy inclusion if it goes in a flex slot, also probably over a Tarmogoyf.

Eldrazi: -1 Ponder, +1 Dismember

Crucible of Worlds or a second large creature (likely Gurmag Angler or Tombstalker) are attractive options, probably over Deluge (which you often don't have enough life for) or one Hymn. Clear the board one time and murder them with Tarmogoyfs. Don't try to grind in postboard games.

BGx pseudo-mirrors: -4 Force of Will, +1 Garruk Relentless, +2 Disfigure, +1 Dismember, +1 Flex slot
Supplement against 4c Loam or Jund w/ Punishing Fire: -0-3 Hymn to Tourach, +0-3 Leyline of the Void

Play to the board no matter what, but Hymn when you can. Creatures are typically too big to make Deluge productive, but it's fine as a 1-of. I'd consider cutting the MD Deluge for the second flex slot if both end up good enough. Garruk is the best card in the matchup. Leyline isn't amazing, but neither is getting your team mowed down by Punishing Fire. Wasteland is typically adequate against Jund since they rely more on topdecks to find Groves and Fires while Loam has Loam and Knight on top of Bob and Sylvan Library. -1 Hymn, +1 Crucible is fine if Crucible gets the nod.

Against Reanimator: -3 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Toxic Deluge, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, - 1 Abrupt Decay, +3 Thoughtseize, +3 Leyline of the Void

Flex slots, especially Duress, Leovold, or Vendilion Clique, would be welcome over at least one of the remaining Decays. Pulse can answer a reanimated fatty in a pinch, and Decay hits Animate Dead and Pithing Needle, which UBx brings in to fight Deathrites.

Sneak and Show: - 1 Toxic Deluge, -2 Abrupt Decay, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Pithing Needle

2 Decays and Pulse stay to protect against Blood Moon. Goyfs would ideally be trimmed for SB flex slots (Clique and Leovold would be ideal, Duress/Thoughtseize would be acceptable). At least plan on fetching the Swamp early.

Against Aluren: -3 Tarmogoyf, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -2 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Forest, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Disfigure, +1 Garruk Relentless

If either flex slot is good it comes in. The best card we have access to is Needle, the rest is just to make sure we don't get crushed by value before the combo kills us. Pulse and Liliana are almost invariably too slow. Again, Jitte is the best card by far. Recruiter versions can't combo through 4 Jitte counters without having part of the combo in hand, though BUG versions can. Stop Aluren and try to win the grindfest.

In summation, I'm leaning toward 2/4 of Clique, Crucible of Worlds, a second Jitte, and Leovold as the two flex slots. Right now Leovold and Clique seem to be the most broadly applicable, though let playstyle and your own assessment of the meta be your guides.

[alrightgame]

Thank you for your input. While I agree that one shouldn't switch decks, I've had a fair bit of experience with Force of Will and Brainstorm when I played my first legacy deck, UW Tempo, ages ago (I miss thee Fathom Seer). I've also see a lot of the tricks one can do with Shardless Agent, such as bottoming >2 spells to the bottom, fetch tricks, etc.
I'm not too worried about it - I'm far more worried about not having a proper configuration or sideboarding techniques.

It's interesting that Pithing Needle is so important (I agree) across the board.
I've got an Eldrazi friend that will need the Leyline of the Void far more than I will....
What do you think of Trinket Mage as a flex spot to get either Pithing Needle or Grafdigger's Cage? Trinket Mage can act as a card to pitch to force if it hasn't been cast.

[Arianeira]

I thought I was the only one who ran Glissa the Traitor although Leovold may take her spot now. Glissa the Traitor is good in creature match ups where you kill their creatures and they not exiling yours with Swords to Plowshares. Also good with Nihil Spell bomb against dredge and graveyard decks. Glissa is also the MVP vs Eldrazi if they don't have a Dismember or Eldrazi Displacer. Seems that online most Eldrazi builds are colorless so no Displacer although I like the GW Eldrazi build myself.

Really like Sylvan Library in this deck so awesome for setting up cascades and you really see many cards with fetches and cascades. I run Sylvan instead of the second Jace or 4th Visions.

As far as sideboard.

Dislike leyline of the void since this is a card advantage deck and mulligans for leylines goes against that. It might be a necessary evil against the all in B/R reanimator though. Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger's Cage or Nihil Spellbomb are what I like for graveyard hate. Dredge has been fairly uncommon so Surgical with Cage is probably better.

If combo is a concern consider splashing white for boarding meddling mage in addition to Thoughtseize. You also get a strict upgrade to Swords to Plowshares from Dismember. Although Vendilion Clique and Leovold take up less slots and you don't need to run a Savannah.

Aluren seems to pop up quite a bit online recently. Not sure if this is a thing on paper but Dredge of Night is pretty good against the white version which seems to be more popular due to Recruiter costs while also hitting Death and Taxes. Night of Soul's Betrayal is better but hard to resolve at 4 mana.

[btm10]

I thought I was the only one who ran Glissa the Traitor although Leovold may take her spot now. Glissa the Traitor is good in creature match ups where you kill their creatures and they not exiling yours with Swords to Plowshares. Also good with Nihil Spell bomb against dredge and graveyard decks. Glissa is also the MVP vs Eldrazi if they don't have a Dismember or Eldrazi Displacer. Seems that online most Eldrazi builds are colorless so no Displacer although I like the GW Eldrazi build myself.

Really like Sylvan Library in this deck so awesome for setting up cascades and you really see many cards with fetches and cascades. I run Sylvan instead of the second Jace or 4th Visions.


I think Sylvan Library is just too slow to run over Ponder or the 4th Visions. We should already be favored in any game that goes on long enough for the filtering provided by Library to add up, and the adoption of Mentor in Miracles and resilient threats like Garruk and Punishing Fire in BGx mirrors has made the life payment less free than it used to be.



As far as sideboard.

Dislike leyline of the void since this is a card advantage deck and mulligans for leylines goes against that. It might be a necessary evil against the all in B/R reanimator though. Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger's Cage or Nihil Spellbomb are what I like for graveyard hate. Dredge has been fairly uncommon so Surgical with Cage is probably better.


Leyline is just where you want to be with Graveyard hate right now. It dodges anti-hate like Abrupt Decay and Chancellor of the Annex, comes down (before) turn 1, and mulliganing to find it often represents a huge tempo swing at a minimum, often paired with a large amount of implicit card advantage. The reasoning of not doing something in Shardless because it's card disadvantage is often counterproductive: Force is strong against Stifle-Delver because it lets you use your mana more efficiently to overpower them; the card disadvantage is easily recouped incidentally over the course of a game.



If combo is a concern consider splashing white for boarding meddling mage in addition to Thoughtseize. You also get a strict upgrade to Swords to Plowshares from Dismember. Although Vendilion Clique and Leovold take up less slots and you don't need to run a Savannah.

Aluren seems to pop up quite a bit online recently. Not sure if this is a thing on paper but Dredge of Night is pretty good against the white version which seems to be more popular due to Recruiter costs while also hitting Death and Taxes. Night of Soul's Betrayal is better but hard to resolve at 4 mana.

Engineered Plague (on Beast) is a more flexible answer to Aluren than Dread of Night since it hits every variant. The white splash has been discussed at length and I'm against it. The SB white source isn't free, and most combo decks can win around or through Meddling Mage with minimal encumbrance. Phyrexian Revoker is better if you want a hatebear since it attacks more enablers and doesn't consume a sideboard slot for a land. Swords is even worse, especially against Death and Taxes.

[Ayiluss]

How do we sideboard against Stoneblade (Bant version particularly)?

Do we keep Forces in or board them out and go with more grindy plan and rely on removal and discard?

Thanks for any help!

[btm10]

Bant can mean so many things at this point that I'm hesitant to make a blanket recommendation. With my 75 from a few posts up, I'd board as follows against Esper and Jeskai:

-4 Force of Will
-3 Baleful Strix
+2 Disfigure
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
+1 Vendilion Clique

Bant is a little trickier since they're more creature based, they (usually) have their own Leovolds, and sometimes have Stifle. I'd probably board similarly against them, so:

-4 Force of Will
-2 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Baleful Strix
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Toxic Deluge

I might have the Hymn/Thoughtseize/Strix numbers wrong for Bant, but I think it's close. It's more board-focused than Esper or Jeskai so you want all the removal. Just keep their creature count low enough that Liliana and Jitte can carry you across the finish line. Save Decays for Equipment if you can, and try to maintain Deathrite supremacy.

[weiuweiu]

Goodbye Disfigure

https://i.imgur.com/EoAkWtn.jpg

[btm10]

I think it's close. In terms of non-overlapping targets

Fatal Push (always) kills:
Endless One
Serra Avenger
Entreat Tokens
Tarmogoyf
Equipped creatures
Painter's Servant
Monastery Swiftspear (though Disfigure can usually kill it)
Stormchaser Mage

Disfigure (always) kills:
Vendilion Clique


Corner Cases:
Knight of the Reliquary (more control w/ Fatal Push)
Leovold (sometimes can kill with Fatal Push)
Combat tricks (easier with Disfigure, relevant against Delve creatures & Eldrazi)
Monastery Mentor (can usually kill with Disfigure)

Maybe a split?

[weiuweiu]

I think it's close. In terms of non-overlapping targets

Fatal Push (always) kills:
Endless One
Serra Avenger
Entreat Tokens
Tarmogoyf
Equipped creatures
Painter's Servant
Monastery Swiftspear (though Disfigure can usually kill it)
Stormchaser Mage

Disfigure (always) kills:
Vendilion Clique


Corner Cases:
Knight of the Reliquary (more control w/ Fatal Push)
Leovold (sometimes can kill with Fatal Push)
Combat tricks (easier with Disfigure, relevant against Delve creatures & Eldrazi)
Monastery Mentor (can usually kill with Disfigure)

Maybe a split?

If you got a fetch with the push you can get so much also.
Thought knot Seer for one. Master of the Wild Hunt in mirrors for those playing it. A bit tired atm but it just feels better. I will preorder two foil and try it out.

[Ayiluss]

Bant can mean so many things at this point that I'm hesitant to make a blanket recommendation. With my 75 from a few posts up, I'd board as follows against Esper and Jeskai:

-4 Force of Will
-3 Baleful Strix
+2 Disfigure
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
+1 Vendilion Clique

Bant is a little trickier since they're more creature based, they (usually) have their own Leovolds, and sometimes have Stifle. I'd probably board similarly against them, so:

-4 Force of Will
-2 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Baleful Strix
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Toxic Deluge

I might have the Hymn/Thoughtseize/Strix numbers wrong for Bant, but I think it's close. It's more board-focused than Esper or Jeskai so you want all the removal. Just keep their creature count low enough that Liliana and Jitte can carry you across the finish line. Save Decays for Equipment if you can, and try to maintain Deathrite supremacy.
It was just regular Bant Stoneblade which got some more attention recently (with SFM, TNN, DRS, Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, SoFaI). I'm not sure exactly how his list is since it was just a random game online and as I said the thing I was unsure the most was whether to board out FoW or not so you answered it basically.

I like discard/removal plan as you said too and probably FoW isn't good in grindy, fair matchups so boarding them out makes sense but I wasn't sure.

My sb is as follows (if it helps although I'm still working on it):

1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Disfigure
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Sylvan Library
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Golgari Charm
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Vendilion Clique

[btm10]

If you got a fetch with the push you can get so much also.
Thought knot Seer for one. Master of the Wild Hunt in mirrors for those playing it. A bit tired atm but it just feels better. I will preorder two foil and try it out.

Totally missed the Fetch/Wasteland interaction. Seems like it definitely has an edge over Disfigure then.


It was just regular Bant Stoneblade which got some more attention recently (with SFM, TNN, DRS, Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, SoFaI). I'm not sure exactly how his list is since it was just a random game online and as I said the thing I was unsure the most was whether to board out FoW or not so you answered it basically.

I like discard/removal plan as you said too and probably FoW isn't good in grindy, fair matchups so boarding them out makes sense but I wasn't sure.

My sb is as follows (if it helps although I'm still working on it):

1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Disfigure
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Sylvan Library
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Golgari Charm
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Vendilion Clique

Any reason for Surgical/Cage over Leyline? What's your starting 60?

[Ayiluss]

Totally missed the Fetch/Wasteland interaction. Seems like it definitely has an edge over Disfigure then.



Any reason for Surgical/Cage over Leyline? What's your starting 60?
I play Cage because there are usually 1-2 Elves where I go to the tournament and Jund with regular UB Reanimator and there is no BR Reanimator (at least not yet) and not much of it on Xmage where I play too. I'm new to the deck so I could be wrong with this but as I said I'm still in the process of tuning my list.

My list is:

Creatures:

2x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agen
4x Tarmogoyf

Other Spells:

4x Abrupt decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Ancestral Vision
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands:

4x Verdant catacombs
3x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Wasteland

[Venomous72]

I play Cage because there are usually 1-2 Elves where I go to the tournament and Jund with regular UB Reanimator and there is no BR Reanimator (at least not yet) and not much of it on Xmage where I play too. I'm new to the deck so I could be wrong with this but as I said I'm still in the process of tuning my list.

My list is:

Creatures:

2x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agen
4x Tarmogoyf

Other Spells:

4x Abrupt decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Ancestral Vision
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands:

4x Verdant catacombs
3x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Wasteland

Have you messed with Leovold much? He has taken over my local meta. I am forcing him in every list I run now.

[weiuweiu]

As i said before. Leovold is a boss.

I really do think he is a shardless staple by now.

[Quasim0ff]

I firmly believe if your mana can produce U B and G, and you are aiming to go slightly later, you need serious considerations for NOT running Leovold.

He is insanely pushed, and not playing him is in 99% of all situations wrong. Especially how the meta looks currently.

[Ayiluss]

I'll give him a try then.

I'm not sure whether he should be in the main deck or in the sb. What do you think? Maybe md instead of third Hymn?

[btm10]

I'd cut Jace for him.

[weiuweiu]

I'll give him a try then.

I'm not sure whether he should be in the main deck or in the sb. What do you think? Maybe md instead of third Hymn?

I would cut 1hymn for him. I like running one jace in the Deck. I would also only run 3 usea. And have 2 Tropical in your list instead.

[btm10]

I would cut 1hymn for him. I like running one jace in the Deck. I would also only run 3 usea. And have 2 Tropical in your list instead.

I didn't even notice the 4th Sea. I'd cut it for a Ponder. And I really dislike Jace in this deck right now. He's really powerful, but what matchups is he good in? BGx mirrors and Miracles? Amd Hymn is probably necessary if you're expecting the GP to feature a lot of combo. If not Ponder, I'd run the 3rd Strix.

[Izzio]

Hello everyone. New to the forum but wanted to say thanks to all those who have helped me along my shardless journey. Quick question. I am also a firm believer in Leovold being great and JTMS not being the best in this meta. The question is, would it be correct to drop to 21 lands from 22 if there are no 4 drops in my main? I have Garruk Relentless in the SB and NoSB rotates in and out depending where I play. I've had good luck with 21 lands so far but was wondering what the overriding opinion on here would be. Thanks in advance and love the work being done here.

[btm10]

I'm a fan of 21 + Ponder. You can probably squeeze down to 20 if you skimp on Wastelands, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[Whitefaces]

I'm a fan of 21 + Ponder. You can probably squeeze down to 20 if you skimp on Wastelands, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Agree with this, you kind of want 21.5 lands so people have used Ponder or Life from the Loam to fill the role of half a land in the past. I think Ponder is a better choice in the format at the moment as it's quite fast.

[order]

How are your results against four-color(with snapcaster) and hymn sultai delver?

I expect the increase of these strategies to deal better with the increase of combo decks (specially SnT and BR reanimator).

I am running a list similar to btm10, with jitte, 3xhymn, 3xstrix 2xlili and 0 jaces. Games are a little unfavored still.


My sideboard strategy: -4xfow +2x disfigure +1x sylvan +1x pulse/deluge (-1hymn if both)

My shardless
4x shaman
4x goyf
4x shard less
3x strix
1x leovold

2x liliana
1x jitte
1x toxic deluge
4x decay

3x vision
1x ponder
4x brainstorm
4x fow
3x hymn

21 lands
3 waste
2 basics
1 tar pit
3 underground
2x bayou
1x tropical
9x fetch

—
side
3x surgical
2x seize
2x duress
2x needle
2x disfigure
1x toxic deluge
1x golgari charm
1x pulse
1x sylvan library

[ESG]

I'm a fan of 21 + Ponder. You can probably squeeze down to 20 if you skimp on Wastelands, but I wouldn't recommend it.

At what point does this deck forgo the Shardless + Visions standard? If Ponder and Leovold are being adopted and Fatal Push is incoming, those are going to push out other cards. And if the format is on the whole faster, as Whitefaces and others have noted, why would Shardless BUG even be a good choice? In my view, Shardless wants a slow environment so its card-advantage engines can grind down the other deck. I've seen the deck completely disappear in the Seattle area over the past months, replaced by white Aluren, then BUG Aluren, and now Dark Bant. Deathblade is also still popular here, but part of that is due to new players who began with Death & Taxes in EMA migrating their Stoneforges to a blue deck.

[btm10]

At what point does this deck forgo the Shardless + Visions standard? If Ponder and Leovold are being adopted and Fatal Push is incoming, those are going to push out other cards. And if the format is on the whole faster, as Whitefaces and others have noted, why would Shardless BUG even be a good choice? In my view, Shardless wants a slow environment so its card-advantage engines can grind down the other deck. I've seen the deck completely disappear in the Seattle area over the past months, replaced by white Aluren, then BUG Aluren, and now Dark Bant. Deathblade is also still popular here, but part of that is due to new players who began with Death & Taxes in EMA migrating their Stoneforges to a blue deck.

I haven't been actively playing Shardless since mid-December, so I'm not sure. Everything I posted since then was based on the testing and deck building I did to test for the GP with people, though I was very happy with the lists I was posting. My feeling right now is that Shardless is about even against Miracles, 4c Delver, and Leovold BUG while being unfavored against the format's other top decks (Reanimator, D&T, Aluren, Lands). Maybe in local metas with lots of Infect and BUG/RUG/Grixis Delver it would be better, though I've kind of hit a wall with the deck in terms of interest.

Right now seems like a fine time to work without Agent - the velocity doesn't matter as much and there are better-positioned ways of grinding card advantage

[pipet76]

Hi

I've seen that almost every list is using at least 3 U Seas, is this mandatory?

For the moment I have 2 U Seas, 2 Trop Island, 1 Bayou, I was going for the 2nd bayou since is cheaper to buy. What do you think?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I won't play a bug list without 3. First wasteland almost always eats the first USea. Just my opinion.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[btm10]

Hi

I've seen that almost every list is using at least 3 U Seas, is this mandatory?

For the moment I have 2 U Seas, 2 Trop Island, 1 Bayou, I was going for the 2nd bayou since is cheaper to buy. What do you think?

The Seas are pretty important. Sea casts all of your turn 1 plays, whereas Bayou only casts Deathrite and Thoughtseize, amd Shardless is still a blue deck. The Trop is an okay substitute, but I'd recommend against Hymn until you have 3 Seas. Maybe give the BUG Leovold deck a try until you find the third one? For what it's worth I think that deck is better positioned than Shardless.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The Seas are pretty important. Sea casts all of your turn 1 plays, whereas Bayou only casts Deathrite and Thoughtseize, amd Shardless is still a blue deck. The Trop is an okay substitute, but I'd recommend against Hymn until you have 3 Seas. Maybe give the BUG Leovold deck a try until you find the third one? For what it's worth I think that deck is better positioned than Shardless.
I agree the Leovold list is better positioned. I'm playing it and just butchering everything so far.

[Hrothgar]

I agree the Leovold list is better positioned. I'm playing it and just butchering everything so far.

Leovold is THE card into a bug shell in this time.
There's no one reason to not play this card with this colors imho.
I play Leovold in Shardless Control from the day one and many times work as preventive protection vs some kind of deck like Reanimator (one the actual tier deck) or ANT for example.
Is a must to counter/remove for our opponent and can make pressure.
One of my favorite cards.

[pipet76]

Leovold is THE card into a bug shell in this time.
There's no one reason to not play this card with this colors imho.
I play Leovold in Shardless Control from the day one and many times work as preventive protection vs some kind of deck like Reanimator (one the actual tier deck) or ANT for example.
Is a must to counter/remove for our opponent and can make pressure.
One of my favorite cards.

And this list actually uses 2 Seas?

In any case Leovold has also exploded in price, not sure if it's the best idea to buy this card right now

[Hrothgar]

And this list actually uses 2 Seas?

In any case Leovold has also exploded in price, not sure if it's the best idea to buy this card right now

In my list, I use 4x Underground Sea.
I've buy paper's Leovold at day 5/6 from release, 16,5$ each.
Not bad.
:tongue:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

In my list, I use 4x Underground Sea.
I've buy paper's Leovold at day 5/6 from release, 16,5$ each.
Not bad.
:tongue:
Unless you pre-ordered them for 8 each, like me 😀

[Krimson Viper]

Played in a small four man unsanctioned tournament yesterday. Met a few cool folks and came in second with Shardless. It's meaningless at a statistical point of view, so you can ignore this for the most part. Questions I have for the group!

One, what would you take out for Shardless BUG and why?

Two, what would you take out for Infect and why?

Three, does anyone have reports on the use of Yahenni's Expertise?

Four, does anyone have reports of the use of Fatal Push?

Five, should Maelstrom Pulse be included in the deck still?

Six, should Clique be included in the deck still?

Now, a statement of fact; Leovold is insane. I need three.

4 DRS
4 Goyf
3 Strix
4 Agent

2 LotV
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Visions
4 Brains
3 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Deluge
1 Pulse
4 FoW

1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
2 Waste
1 Tar Pit
4 Delta
4 Catacomb
1 Misty
1 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
1 Spellbomb
1 Needle
2 Disfigure (will be Fatal Push)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ooze
1 Library
1 Null Rod
1 Jitte
1 G. Charm
1 Macabre (Might become Expertise)
1 Clique
1 E. Plague
1 K. Grip

[minyafriend]

1)first to go are the forces: two for one yourself against the card advantage deck is not the right path to go down, although relevant in forcing their visions game one its the first card to come out post board. second to go for me is hymn to tourach, two for one'ing them is definitely relevant but the games tend to be so grindy that you will eventually both be top decking and this is one of the worst top decks you could possibly ask for therefore i try to make the decks draws consistent and strong at any point in the game (disclaimer: you will lose sometimes to shardless decks that keep hymn in post board but this does not make it correct! you have stronger cards that affect the game more than hymn in your sb)
2)first to come out are the ancestral visions: the card is too slow to matter usually. second for me are the hymns: this is a personal preference, sure you can rip 2 pieces out of their hand but i think if you want hand disruption thoughtseize is a better card because you get perfect information and the exact card you want. it could be possible flipping hymns on the play and thoughtseize on the draw is a good idea but i just stick with thoughtseize. maelstrom pulse is acceptable to take out if you are bringing in better removal like push/disfigure/dismember/murderous cut because its much too slow. next up could be some number of goyf, i dont take any out because you need beefy blockers and a beater sometimes but some people take goyfs out if they have more interactive cards to bring in. fatal push will make this matchup alot better for us.
3)no, the card seems good but i dont think its better than toxic deluge or even night of souls betrayal specifically in the legacy format. i spent my money on the fatal pushes to test because i knew they would affect the format much more so i have to wait now to get an expertise.
4)its the business. even if its usually only hitting a 2cmc cost creature its insanely better than disfigure and with wastelands and fetchlands etc. this card is bonkers. i tossed two in the main and havent looked back yet. it allows you to use your abrupt decays on things that arent pushable and vice versa which makes your removal suite alot more flexible. youve never been able to blindly disfigure scavenging ooze, knight of the reliquary, tarmogoyf, serra avenger, leovold, thought knot seer etc. blah blah blah the card is a staple.
5)yes. as slow and clunky as maelstrom pulse is there are no cards that replace this effect in these colors. shardless has the power to see so many cards over the course of 1 game so having 1 of answers to many situations is very powerful. i run 2(1 in side) but could see it coming down to one although fatal push will make gurmag angler alot stronger. pulse actually comes in more often than it comes out in my experience.
6)i dont play clique right now and dont really have an opinion on its inclusion except that im not interested in it. dont get me wrong its a good card though.
as for leovold i have been running 1 main since it became legal and havent looked back, i think 2 is correct but havent found the space yet. ive felt for a while that liliana was underperforming from a synergy point of view but everytime i take her out i find an example where i wouldve won if i had her out. im sure that with the prevalence of true name nemesis and leovold recently that toxic deluge is at a premium as it doesnt target and maybe warrants testing yahennis expertise.

all that said im interested in the tools bug decks have been given in the past couple months but am not quite sure shardless itself is positioned very well. well see if push helps but its been feeling just about 2 turns too slow recently.




Played in a small four man unsanctioned tournament yesterday. Met a few cool folks and came in second with Shardless. It's meaningless at a statistical point of view, so you can ignore this for the most part. Questions I have for the group!

One, what would you take out for Shardless BUG and why?

Two, what would you take out for Infect and why?

Three, does anyone have reports on the use of Yahenni's Expertise?

Four, does anyone have reports of the use of Fatal Push?

Five, should Maelstrom Pulse be included in the deck still?

Six, should Clique be included in the deck still?

Now, a statement of fact; Leovold is insane. I need three.

4 DRS
4 Goyf
3 Strix
4 Agent

2 LotV
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Visions
4 Brains
3 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Deluge
1 Pulse
4 FoW

1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
2 Waste
1 Tar Pit
4 Delta
4 Catacomb
1 Misty
1 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
1 Spellbomb
1 Needle
2 Disfigure (will be Fatal Push)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ooze
1 Library
1 Null Rod
1 Jitte
1 G. Charm
1 Macabre (Might become Expertise)
1 Clique
1 E. Plague
1 K. Grip

[Dutch253]

Quick question about mana bases. I'm running a pretty typical Shardless list but I only have 2 U-Sea, 1 Trop and 1 Bayou. Would I be better off filling the gaps with basics or shocks? I know the deck is pretty color hungry so I was leaning towards shocks but I imagine getting a shock wasted must feel pretty terrible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hrothgar]

Quick question about mana bases. I'm running a pretty typical Shardless list but I only have 2 U-Sea, 1 Trop and 1 Bayou. Would I be better off filling the gaps with basics or shocks? I know the deck is pretty color hungry so I was leaning towards shocks but I imagine getting a shock wasted must feel pretty terrible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not a competitive advice - you need colored mana for spells: you can try changing 1 Hymn with 1 Thoughtseize and add 1 basic Island (removing the double B casting cost), but the rest of lands are shock lands imho.
The deck is color hungry.

[wcm8]

Hello all. I've updated the Lejay list to incorporate 4 copies of Fatal Push. Having a reliable turn 1 removal spell is simply incredible for this deck. I also cut 2 planeswalkers in exchange for 2 copies of Leovold. With the slightly lower curve, you could possibly justify cutting the 22nd land in favor of a Ponder or Sylvan Library, but for now I think you just want to reliably hit your land drops.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Leovold, Spymaster of Trest
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Force of Will
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Savannah
1 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Swords to Plowshares --> something else: Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charm, etc.
3 Thoughtseize
4 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

With Push, the sideboard slot that was previously StP can probably be cut in favor of something else. With a possible increase in True-Name Nemesis, I suppose something that does -X/-X is worth considering, though perhaps it could instead be some alternative option -- more anti-combo or a metagame-specific choice might work.

[minyafriend]

Just for the record I think it's incorrect to play anything less than 4 abrupt decay in the main. Fatal push and abrupt decay are not interchangeable.

[ORDAL]

Hello all. I've updated the Lejay list to incorporate 4 copies of Fatal Push. Having a reliable turn 1 removal spell is simply incredible for this deck. I also cut 2 planeswalkers in exchange for 2 copies of Leovold. With the slightly lower curve, you could possibly justify cutting the 22nd land in favor of a Ponder or Sylvan Library, but for now I think you just want to reliably hit your land drops.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Leovold, Spymaster of Trest
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Force of Will
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Savannah
1 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Swords to Plowshares --> something else: Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charm, etc.
3 Thoughtseize
4 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

With Push, the sideboard slot that was previously StP can probably be cut in favor of something else. With a possible increase in True-Name Nemesis, I suppose something that does -X/-X is worth considering, though perhaps it could instead be some alternative option -- more anti-combo or a metagame-specific choice might work.

i dont think lejay list really need fatal push, maybe can be really intersting if lejay read this and write him opinion, can be e really good for this trhead

[Lejay]

I have been out of competitive for a while, but if I had a tournament to attend tomorrow I would take my old list with just -1 stp +1 fatal push.
That said with a staple like Fatal Push, trying to rethink from the ground is a good idea anyway if you have some serious tournaments to prepare. If I was doing so I could end up with a different list, but maybe not. It's not just that I know the old list well, but also that I have been very satisfied with how versatile it was and therefore perfect for an unknown metagame. That level of versatility and efficiency isn't easy to achieve.

[ORDAL]

I have been out of competitive for a while, but if I had a tournament to attend tomorrow I would take my old list with just -1 stp +1 fatal push.
That said with a staple like Fatal Push, trying to rethink from the ground is a good idea anyway if you have some serious tournaments to prepare. If I was doing so I could end up with a different list, but maybe not. It's not just that I know the old list well, but also that I have been very satisfied with how versatile it was and therefore perfect for an unknown metagame. That level of versatility and efficiency isn't easy to achieve.

Hi man...........
As you said fatal push can be a good solution to replace stp, but i think stp still better.
Fatal push is fast and cheap removal and we dont need white mana, but the implied odds we get with stp i think are amaizng.......... ok white mana isnt always easy but as you know beacuse you create that side, with cascade and shaman, stp work and give us a mono out to trouble solution like: crusader, marit lage, some big boy of br reanimator and gurmag and tombstalker. Frog and stalker becoming really much more played right now were all over played fatal push and Smart player put more frog in maindeck.
Btw ad you said maindeck is really nearly to perfection and untochable, and i think 1 for 1 removal isnt the thing your shardless need.
Hope you come black to competitive.
Ps your provate message are full you need to clear it 😁
Thx

[btm10]

I've made my feelings on splashing white pretty clear (not worth it), and Shardless has plenty of answers to Angler/Tombstalker/Mirran Crusader that don't involve making the mana worse. I also wouldn't put a Push in the main, though it's a fine replacement for Disfigure in the board.

[Yanneuk]

Hey Guys,

New to legacy and new to Shardless BUG.
Been wanting to ask you for your opinions on my list:


// 21 Spells
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// 18 Creatures
4 Balefull Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Leovold, Emmisary of Trest

//21 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp

// 15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod


I'm seeing some D&T, BUG Delver, Miracles, Eldrazi, RUG Delver, the reid duke True-Name / Leovold BUG, the new BUG Standstill with fatal push and BR Reanimator and 1 storm in my LGS

I don't think fatal push main is neccesary because we can cascade into abrupt decay.

Is 2x leovold the right number?
I'm seeing that the guys from the brainstorm show totally cut Jace and Lili, any thoughts on that?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm fine with Jace being cut, but I like lili, she makes the card advantage of this deck even more backbreaking. It's my opinion that the number of creatures you play is definitely on the High side.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Yanneuk]

Hey thanks for your reply.

What would you replace?
2 x strix for 2 x lili ? or maybe + hymn or thoughtseize?

i'm liking the strixes for the eldrazi / delver matchup and it's funny that it can block a griselbrand to death

[Krimson Viper]

I think missing a board wipe entirely is something that's inconceivable for the deck. With our low creature count, take advantage of it by wiping the board. A board wipe is so crucial when fighting against BUG creature decks. It's bad against certain match ups, but the format still has a lot of creature decks. I would cut a Strix for a Deluge from your side into the main.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Every time I try to help someone with their list it ends up just turning into my 75 lol, so I don't think I can help much more than to say test it out and see what you do/don't like.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Yanneuk]

Every time I try to help someone with their list it ends up just turning into my 75 lol, so I don't think I can help much more than to say test it out and see what you do/don't like.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Where can i find your list?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've been learning more and more that using your removal correctly is probably the reason some people are having problems with not having enough of it. Do what you want, but I feel like more reps will help you learn how the deck truly wants to be played. Anyway, no real report as I don't do well recalling and my notes are never adequate as I focus on the game and my lines of play before taking notes. Here is the skinny on the games I played.

LIST LOCATED AT BOTTOM OF POST.

RD 1: Richard, on 4C Delver

Game 1: First game of the day, I play too greedy. I have 2x Goyf and a clique, he an unflipped Delver. I swing will all for a sure victory the next turn, but leave myself open to delver plus bolt. He flips delver with a ponder and ponders into bolt. My bad. Grind it out, not quick beats. I'm learning all the time.

game 2: I hymned away his second land drop, he plays 2x delver turn 1/2, I deal with his board and waste his land. A turn or 2 later Goyf gets the scoop.

Game 3: I mull to 5 and just can't get there. I did well even with the mull, but still lost.

0-1


RD 2: Ethan, on Miracles

Game 1: I get there with a Creeping Tar Pit for 18 damage, Strix for the last 2 after a Back to Basics shuts off the manland.

Game 2: Early Shardless gets a few points, then Clique, then I clean up the match with Tar Pit. This card is awesome against Miracles, especially when paired up with a Library.

1-1

RD 3: Alex, on Storm

Game 1: He combos off fairly early. A Decay on LED and a hymn slowed him down, but I didn't have enough disruption for it to matter.

Game 2: A lot of work from DRS and Null Rod.

Game 3: An active Force and some hand disruption with a motley crew of beats gets there through multiple EtW combo turns. First one for 12 goblins gets answered by a Golgari Charm as the first card flipped to a blind cascade and then drew a Maelstrom Pulse, which answered the next EtW a few turns later.

2-1

RD 4: Matt, aggro Eldrazi (colorless) This is a teammate. He had played two other BUG lists previously and had beat them both

Game 1: I deal with his little guys while getting a wasteland heavy draw if I recall correctly and keep him off mana.

Game 2: His Chalices are irrelevant and he has no pressure other than a TKS, which I kill with Pulse and then Goyfs win the game in quick fashion.

3-1


RD 5: Andrew, Maverick(?) A sourcer, forgot his handle, but if you read this, Andrew, would you lmk if you were on maverick or what?

Game 1: Thoughtseize rips one of two Knights, but that's all I can remember other than I win this one.

Game 2: I lose in several turns, Maze of Ith helping him along the way.

Game 3: I win, but I don't remember many details other than it seems goyf was the main threat.

4-1


RD 6: Leonard with Merfolk

Game 1: I get multiple goyfs and deal with true names via a timely Deluge.

Game 2: I deal with a lord with a Disfigure, a manland with a Waste, and Null Rod for Vial, which he had a double vial draw. He gets down 3 TNN in this game, 2 of which I deal with via Golgari Charm, the last I used a Deluge. Finish it off with 2 goyfs again.

I'm 3rd seed with 15 points, into the Top 8.



Semi's against Thomas (Admiral Arzar here on the Source), he's on Sylvan Plug, but with Goyfs. Turns out, its better. No kidding...

Game 1: He wins, but I don't remember much other than I believe a billion Zeniths into a billion Goyfs.

Game 2: I wasn't sure what he was on, as it was a strange hand and I saw very little besides a choke and GSZ and Goyf, and I think a Mox Diamond. I played around Choke here and in game 3 with 3 basics fetched early, not popping fetches and using DRS for Blue often. I get goyfs going, he doesn't draw lands and I think I wastelanded also. I answer his goyfs and Sylvan Library and win.

Game 3: Goyfs, played around Choke some more. Don't remember much, just that it was good games and a lot of fun. Thanks!

Semi's: Tyler, Miracles

He played 3 Jace, no Entreats, and Mentor, although I'm unsure how many of them, but it was a really strong list, and he played well.

G1: He resolves a turn 4 Jace. This is unexpected as I have a full grip and didn't play aggressively, gave no information that I didn't have a counter or anything, so I suspected immediately that he played 3 total, but alas, it was too good. I never got rid of it and he locked the board up with CounterTop and a couple of StP, 1 Counterspell, and 2(?) Snapcasters later I scoop as the writing is on the wall and I wanted to not get too downhearted by the situation. Not getting tilted is important.

G2: I win by discard and threats followed by an abrupt decay and a FoW on a Jace.

G3: I turn 1 DRS, counter his turn 1 Top, turn 2 I Shardless into Surgical and grab the top. He gets Jace, I can't deal with it right away and it punishes me by setting up an Entreat that I couldn't combat in a timely manner.

That was it, I don't necessarily remember how I boarded, but I'll leave you with the list.

4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Strix
1 Clique
4 Shardless

3 Decay
l2 TSeize
2 Hymn
4 FoW
2 Liliana
1 Deluge
1 Library
3 Vision
4 BS
1 Pulse

4 Delta
4 Verdant
1 Misty
3 Wasteland
1 CTP
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Trop

SB:
2 Surgical
1 Jace
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Deluge
1 Decay
1 TSeize
1 Charm
1 Library
1 Rod
1 Disfigure
1 Needle
1 Cage
1 Spellbomb
1 NoSB

The only thing I would like to change is NoSB being either another Charm or a first Engineered Plague. I'm leaning towards Plague in my local meta, but in a larger one maybe a second Charm is good, I really loved it all day.

-ABC
Here's my last successful list, but it was metagamed for Denver, which is often combo heavy.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[matunos]

Here's my last successful list, but it was metagamed for Denver, which is often combo heavy.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

12 Thoughtseize? You really do metagame against combo!

[Yanneuk]

How do you guys board against the most played decks?

I was thinking of adding 4x Leyline of the void for the reanimator, storm and lands matchups.


So i'm having this plan:

// 15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Fatal Push
1 Murderous Cut
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Baleful Strix
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle



Reanimator BR
+4 Leyline of the Void, +2 Hymn to Tourach, +2 Thoughtseize
-1 Maelstrom Pulse, -4 Abrupt Decay, -1 Toxic Deluge, -2 leovold

Miracles
+2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Garruk Relentless
-3 Baleful Strix, -1 Toxic Deluge

ANT STORM
+4 Leyline of the Void, +2 Hymn to Tourach, +2 Thoughtseize
-4 Abrupt Decay, -3 Baleful Strix, -1 Toxic deluge

Lands
+4 Leyline of the Void, +1 Pithing Needle
-1 Umezawa’s Jitte, -2 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Toxic Deluge

Eldrazi Stompy
+1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Murderous Cut, + 2 Fatal Push
-2 Hymn to Tourach, -2 Leovold, Emmisary of Trest

Grixis Delver
+2 Fatal Push, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Garruk Relentless, +1 Baleful Strix
-4 Force of Will, -2 Hymn to Tourach

Death & Taxes
+2 Fatal Push, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Baleful Strix
-4 Force of Will, -2 Hymn to Tourach

BUG Delver
+2 Fatal Push, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Garruk Relentless, + 1 Baleful Strix
-4 Force of Will, -2 Hymn to Tourach

U/G Infect
+2 Fatal Push, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Pithing Needle, + 1 Baleful Strix
-4 Ancestral Vision, -2 Hymn to Tourach

[Secretly.A.Bee]

12 Thoughtseize? You really do metagame against combo!
Heheheh, whoops...

[Krimson Viper]

It's always nice to post your main deck with your sideboard so we can work with total information. My responses will be in red, underneath your sideboard suggestions. Beware, I'm not a fan of having Leyline in the deck. Shardless is the very definition of grind and card advantage. Having Leyline fights against this ideaology. Understand that my suggestions are suggestions made because I'm trying to get you to understand the versatility of our SB cards and what we have available instead of Leyline. The only one I've thought about taking out completely is Library because there's so few times I want to see it in. I have one or two flex spots for my side that I meta game with.


How do you guys board against the most played decks?

I was thinking of adding 4x Leyline of the void for the reanimator, storm and lands matchups.


So i'm having this plan:

// 15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Fatal Push
1 Murderous Cut
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Baleful Strix
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle



Reanimator BR
+4 Leyline of the Void, +2 Hymn to Tourach, +2 Thoughtseize
-1 Maelstrom Pulse, -4 Abrupt Decay, -1 Toxic Deluge, -2 leovold
Hymn should be in your main. If you don't believe you'll need there in the first place, it might not need to be in your list at all. Against Reanimator, I wouldn't use Hymn at all. The opponent could be sitting on everything, but not their enabler, which would put their card into the grave. Thoughtseize is ok because you can pick the card. Against BR I would side out AD and bring in cards that pick off their cards, Surgical Extraction, Nihil Spellbomb, ScOoze. Pulse is good and Deluge is ok. You kill their fatties with both of these, which AD doesn't. You can take out cards like four mana planeswalkers and some number of Visions. Don't take too many Visions out though. You're lowering your blue card count for Force.
Miracles
+2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Garruk Relentless
-3 Baleful Strix, -1 Toxic Deluge
You need a Null Rod for your deck. I typically side out Strix, some number of Hymns and a Lili, in that order to make room for Needle, Rod, Clique, K. Grip, Plague/NoSB, and depending on their build, some nber of Fatal Push. Deluge answers their action plan of Mentor, Hymn is worse to top deck into, Strix is ignorable and doesn't offer anything real to the fight, and Lili takes out your cards as well. This is something to notice because they have a lot of CA as well with Top, BS, Ponder, and Predict.
ANT STORM
+4 Leyline of the Void, +2 Hymn to Tourach, +2 Thoughtseize
-4 Abrupt Decay, -3 Baleful Strix, -1 Toxic deluge
Out AD, and four mana 'walkers, Deluge, and some number of Visions. I wouldn't bother with anything that takes your until turn three at the earliest to cast because you very well may never get there and it's terrible to find them before you can even cast them. You need disruption and a clock, so don't take out creatures. I bring in Null Rod, Clique, TS, and depending on their build, Spellbomb and ScOoze. G. Charm is cute if you think they will go for Empty. They may bring in AD to kill hate cards or Goyf to cut the clock.
Lands
+4 Leyline of the Void, +1 Pithing Needle
-1 Umezawa’s Jitte, -2 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Toxic Deluge
Out with some number of AD, all Deluge, Pulse,and Forces out. Needle, Rod, TS, ScOoze, Clique, and K. Grip. Extraction is Ok to bring Having some AD in is ok because they will bring in Chalice, Grip is iffy, it sort of depends on what you feel you want to answer with it, like their mana accel, Needles, Chalices. Once again, having creatures to close this out fast is good, while disrupting them with whatever. Force really isn't going to help too much in post games. Pulse is dead. Deluge is dead. I've come across Lands that will bring in hate bears and hasten their clock, but that's rare.
Eldrazi Stompy
+1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Murderous Cut, + 2 Fatal Push
-2 Hymn to Tourach, -2 Leovold, Emmisary of Trest
Honestly, this match up is easy. Forces out and depending on your four mana 'walker, that one out too. In Jitte, Push, another Deluge, or Plague/NoSB, or Library. Keeping in Deluge is ok because if they're inexperienced they will try to run you over and play out their hand and will be blown out by Deluge. This match is in our favor, so long as you understand your roll and play smart.
Grixis Delver
+2 Fatal Push, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Garruk Relentless, +1 Baleful Strix
-4 Force of Will, -2 Hymn to Tourach
Out Force. Strix is good, You may never get to Garruk mana, and I like Charm over another Deluge. Even Plague would be better than Deluge. Reason being is that it sucks nuts to have Deluge Dazed or Pierced or even Forced.
Death & Taxes
+2 Fatal Push, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Baleful Strix
-4 Force of Will, -2 Hymn to Tourach
Strix isn't something I would have here, so I would keep any copies in the side. Null Rod, Needle, Push, another wipe or Plague/NoSB, Clique, TS, Charm, K. Grip would be cards I look at.
BUG Delver
+2 Fatal Push, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Garruk Relentless, + 1 Baleful Strix
-4 Force of Will, -2 Hymn to Tourach
Some have argued about keeping Force here and out with Hymn, and other arguing the literal opposite. I haven't come across this deck at all, but I would like to see Push, ScOoze, Clique, and G. Charm. Killing their DRS, or Forcing it seems good. Regenerating a Goyf that's been AD are plays I can see happening. Checking Goyf and gaining life is good, not to mention you can regenerate the ScOoze. No need to wipe here. They play the same creature package, essential, but you run more creatures. I would also remove your four mana 'walkers.
U/G Infect
+2 Fatal Push, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Pithing Needle, + 1 Baleful Strix
-4 Ancestral Vision, -2 Hymn to Tourach
This is a fifty-fifty match up. As long as you can produce a clock and disrupt is good. Out with Pulse, four mana 'walkers, maybe some number of Goyf or Visions. I've sided out both and came up positive in both cases, so I'm not sure what's preferred. In with K. Grip, Needle, Push, TS, Clique, Jitte, G. Charm, Plague/NoSB. Hymn is amazing here. You're cutting out their few creatures, or their pumps. They play out of their hand a lot.

[Yanneuk]

Stuff

Hey thanks for your response!
Really helpfull!

Gonna try some stuff out. My list below.


My original plan for reanimator was like getting a leyline out and then play hymn's, thoughtseize/duress and liliana to exile all his cards.

Gonna work on an improved sideboard plan.


This is my current list

// 23 Spells
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

// 16 Creatures
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Leovold, Emmisary of Trest

// 21 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island

// 15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Fatal Push
1 Murderous Cut
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle

[m12167]

Has anyone tried testing out Grim Flayer? It likely doesn't have a place in the deck with Eldrazi being as popular as it is, but it seems like a decent budget alternative to Tarmogoyf or potentially a more aggressive replacement to Baleful Strix (if your meta is light on Eldrazi). It also has pretty good synergy with Shardless Agent and lets you dump lands from the top of your deck as you get later in the game.


http://magiccards.info/scans/en/emn/184.jpg

[Yanneuk]

Has anyone tried testing out Grim Flayer? It likely doesn't have a place in the deck with Eldrazi being as popular as it is, but it seems like a decent budget alternative to Tarmogoyf or potentially a more aggressive replacement to Baleful Strix (if your meta is light on Eldrazi). It also has pretty good synergy with Shardless Agent and lets you dump lands from the top of your deck as you get later in the game.


http://magiccards.info/scans/en/emn/184.jpg

It could be a budget replacemant for goyf, but i wouldn't cut baleful strix for it.

Strix is a blue card for FoW / it immediately draws you a card and is a "delayed" removal.
It's great against delver and eldrazi wich grim flayer isn't.
strix could also block a griselbrand

have you tested grim? where do you think its good?

[btm10]

It just doesn't do enough. Where do you want a fifth Tarmogoyf? And in that matchup, I'd be surprised if Flayer were better than Quirion Dryad or Scavenging Ooze. If you want the filtering, how is Flayer better than Sylvan Library or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy?

[m12167]

have you tested grim? where do you think its good?

To be honest, the only reason I even considered it was that I'm waiting on two Tarmogoyfs to come in from overseas and had already sold my English copies. So in my case I ended up playing 4 DRS, 4 Shardless, 2 Goyf, 2 Strix, 2 Flayer, 2 Leovold for my creatures, definitely not something I would normally do. That being said, I ended up top 8ing a 39 person 2k. The digging proved useful at all points of the game, and I definitely used it to set up some clutch cascades. Flayer doesn't necessarily bring the beats as hard as a goyf does, but the trample was helpful sometimes to get in the last few points of damage.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So who thinks leovold is now a mainstay/staple in Shardless BUG?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Yanneuk]

So who thinks leovold is now a mainstay/staple in Shardless BUG?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Leovold is a beast against any deck that plays blue AND also against elves (come on play that Glimpse of Nature :-) ).
It's just too good not to include.

I'm playing 2

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's also good against DnT and certain draws against Lands. I'm taking stock of who is/isn't and who will continue to what results. Idk if it's a staple yet, but agreed that it's really good in most things it can be run in.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Krimson Viper]

I'm honestly curious, where can I find info about Leo's True Name BUG? I have a feeling I'm going to be coming across it a lot at the CFB $3k and I'd like to get as much info about it as possible. What its shell looks like, sideboard, and sideboard strategies.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

There are vids on YouTube of Reid testing it where you can learn lots from his explanations. Dark Bant is the tag iirc.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Yanneuk]

People also keep forgetting "Whenever you or a permanent you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may draw a card."
When someone wastes you => draw card
When someone thoughtseizes you or whatever => draw card

[Secretly.A.Bee]

People do miss the trigger on occasion, sure...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Krimson Viper]

Good looking out. And I'm not going to lie, I've missed the "You" in that ability a lot. A. Lot.

[minyafriend]

Good looking out. And I'm not going to lie, I've missed the "You" in that ability a lot. A. Lot.

Before letting anything resolve I've been in the habit of reading almost every card to make sure it does or doesn't say target on it. There's also some strange examples that target such as carpet of flowers. Intuition targets as well. Also if you play vintage forbidden orchard targets. Milking leovold for all its value forces you to be more aware of all the cards interactions, it's easy to miss some. There's also some examples where you shouldn't draw like if you have one card in hand and your opponent hymns you.. or maybe there's a chains of Mephistopheles out? ;)

[btm10]

On Leovold: I've got 2 slots of my 75 locked, but right now they're in the sideboard. They come in in nearly every matchup, but I want to keep more broad interaction maindeck and then bring Leo in once I know what I want from him.

[Yanneuk]

On Leovold: I've got 2 slots of my 75 locked, but right now they're in the sideboard. They come in in nearly every matchup, but I want to keep more broad interaction maindeck and then bring Leo in once I know what I want from him.

Can you share your list?
What do you board out for leo?

[btm10]

Land (21)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures (15)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix


Draw/Manipulation (8)

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder

Interaction (14)

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Fatal Push
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Edict

[wcm8]

I think Leovold is relevant in like 90%+ of matchups. I was previously running him in the sideboard but it became obvious that he was being brought in basically every game. Worst case, he's a vanilla 3/3 for 3 that pitches to Force... but generally his ability can really swing games in a major way.

[btm10]

I think Leovold is relevant in like 90%+ of matchups. I was previously running him in the sideboard but it became obvious that he was being brought in basically every game. Worst case, he's a vanilla 3/3 for 3 that pitches to Force... but generally his ability can really swing games in a major way.

I agree, but the most likely place for him to end up (main) is in the Hymn slots, meaning that you're taking either (an admittedly less extreme version of) the Lejay route of conceding game 1 to combo or cutting something like Baleful Strix and reducing our ways of stalling/grinding out crearure decks and the size of our Tarmogoyfs. Both of the leading candidates for removal are two-drops, and replacing them with a 3-drop either exacerbates Shardless' clunkiness or pushes you toward running additional mana accelerants like Noble Hierarch. I'm not disputing Leovold's utility in a variety of matchups, I just think that his marginal utility/WAR (if you're as excited about baseball season as I am) is lower than either Hymn's or Strix's, even though he's both extremely powerful and tends to make you stabilize a lot more firmly than the other cards in their respective matchups. He's great, he comes in a lot, I just want to limit clunk as much as possible, give myself the best chance game 1 against combo while maintaining my strong 'fair' matchups, and make sure Leovold is surrounded by the best possible supporting cast so that resolving him is more likely to be game-ending.

The alternative to the above problems is to play a better game 1 Leovold deck. I've been working pretty hard on non-Shardless BUG midrange in preparation for SCG Baltimore, and I'm maindecking Leovold there. I actually think that 'stock' Shardless lists (my own included) need substantial metagame adjustments rather than simple trimming of numbers to accomodate Leovold the way most people have done, but that making those adjustments requires more work than simply starting from scratch without the Cascade engine; I also suspect that non-Cascade lists are just better-positioned against the field right now, though they're slightly worse in the BUG pseudo-mirror.

[Krimson Viper]

I would actually have to argue that Leo can take the slots of any four mana planeswalkers and an Ancestral, or in your case Jitte, and not Hymn. If you wanted to keep a play set of Ancestral, you could take out a Lili for him as well. Those are the slots I'm looking at while thinking about Leo in my build.

[Dutch253]

I would actually have to argue that Leo can take the slots of any four mana planeswalkers and an Ancestral, or in your case Jitte, and not Hymn. If you wanted to keep a play set of Ancestral, you could take out a Lili for him as well. Those are the slots I'm looking at while thinking about Leo in my build.

I just can't see cutting JTMS for Leovold. I'm also trying to find room for him MB. I only play 1 Lili so it would be hard cutting her.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Grizzlybeer]

I've been messing around with a deck that kind of falls between Shardless and Team America Midrange. I'm posting it to this thread instead of the other one because I feel it is slightly closer to Classic Shardless than Team America. I call it Shardless Nemesis, anyway here is the list(Yes it is 61 cards, I always play 61 card lists):

Shardless Nemesis

Creatures (16):
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 True-Name Nemsis
1 Baleful Strix
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Spells(24):

Instants(13):
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push

Sorcery(8):
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ponder

Planeswalker(3):
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands:(21)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard(15):
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dread of Night
1 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte

If you want to know the side boarding plan I can elaborate but I'm sure most people can guess. Anyway It's something a little different that I thought I would share. So far I have been having pretty good results (Primarily play MTGO) but I would say it is weak and strong against the following:

Strong against:
Most Delver Variants
BUG midrange variants
Miracles
Eldrazi
Reanimator
Dredge
Junk
Jund


Weak against:
Storm Variants
Burn
R/U Delver
Lands

50/50 Against:
Nic Fit variants
LandStill Variants

Not enough games:
Elves
Death & Taxes
Omnitell
Show and Tell
Bant/Deathblade

[Hrothgar]

Strong against:
...
Reanimator

This have no sense imho.

I can talk about BR Reanimator obv, because this is the most explosive archetype of Reanimator, one of the deck to beat of the last months and one of the most played combo deck in this actual meta.

I have play a lot of games vs BR Reanimator and the G1 is near to impossible.

My list have less dead cards by your list vs this archetype (your 2x Fatal Push and your 2x Nemesis are totally dead).
In add to this my mana base have no basic island and this reduce the trouble for mana green -> shaman ability of remove creature.

IMHO my list is more stronger than yours (2 Baleful Strix who can block vs 1 --- 2 Leovold who can stop Griselbrand vs 1 --- 1 Maelstrom Pulse vs 1 Fatal Push --- 60 cards vs 61) vs this specifically archetype and >IMHO< the matchup is very difficult.

[Grizzlybeer]

This have no sense imho.

I can talk about BR Reanimator obv, because this is the most explosive archetype of Reanimator, one of the deck to beat of the last months and one of the most played combo deck in this actual meta.

I have play a lot of games vs BR Reanimator and the G1 is near to impossible.

My list have less dead cards by your list vs this archetype (your 2x Fatal Push and your 2x Nemesis are totally dead).
In add to this my mana base have no basic island and this reduce the trouble for mana green -> shaman ability of remove creature.

IMHO my list is more stronger than yours (2 Baleful Strix who can block vs 1 --- 2 Leovold who can stop Griselbrand vs 1 --- 1 Maelstrom Pulse vs 1 Fatal Push --- 60 cards vs 61) vs this specifically archetype and >IMHO< the matchup is very difficult.

Maybe I have just been lucky? Do you mind sharing the list so I can see the difference?(I scrolled back a few pages and don't see it's posted but may have missed it) I haven't had a problem using deathrite at all I mean there are some Shardless decks that run 3 to 4 wastes so I have the Island instead of that.

G1 I have 2x Lili, 4 deathrite, 1 jace, 3 hymn and 3 force, 1 Leo. (Definitely weak to it G1 but I'm weaker to most "combo"-esque decks G1)

G2 and 3, I have Needle, null rod, 2x surgical, 4th force, 2 thoughtseize, 1 cage, 1 clique that I bring in.
-3 Vision, -2 True-name, -2 Fatal, -2 Decay

With those changes I've had good success. I end up attacking it in a bunch of different ways but as I said maybe I've just been lucky?

[Krimson Viper]

Honestly curious what everyone's plan is for opposing Leo decks not Shardless. I have a feeling that I want to keep Forces in and side out Hymns, both Strix as well as Pulse and bring in two Push, Loam, G. Charm, Plague, and Expertise. What is everyone's experience? What roles do you find yourself playing with success?

My list I am running:

4 DRS
2 Strix
4 Goyf
4 Shardless
2 Leovold

1 Lili

4 Visions
4 BS
3 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Deluge
1 Pulse
4 FoW

1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Sea
2 Bayou
2 Trop
1 Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
4 Delta
4 Catacombs
2 Misty

1 Spellbomb
1 Needle
3 Thoughtseize
2 Push
1 ScOoze
1 Rod
1 Jitte
1 Life from the Loam (not enthused about this)
1 G. Charm
1 Clique
1 Plague
1 Y. Expertise

I'm rolling over eliminating a single TS and I thought about LftL because I've noticed that getting Wasted is troublesome in BUG MUs not Shardless.

[ironclad8690]

I haven't played Shardless in a while, but in theory Lejay's approach should be the best one if your meta is BUG TNN happy.

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge

Is a great place to start. I really like Night of Souls' Betrayal currently as well with D&T being somewhat common. I am also very high on Toxic Deluge at the moment.

I think the sideboard could use some updating, I don't like Swords to Plowshares for instance. Also, we need more than 1 Leyline of the Void. Meddling Mage still pulls his weight vs many combo decks, but I think going down to 3 is good. Gives us room for Leyline 2, and cutting Grafdigger's lets us play Leyline 3. This gives us:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Ponder (Possibly should be Leo instead)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library (Possibly should be Leo instead)

4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Meddling Mage
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Savannah
1 Dismember
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Duress
3 Thoughtseize (or 4 and 0 Duress)

[FZA]

I haven't played Shardless in a while, but in theory Lejay's approach should be the best one if your meta is BUG TNN happy.

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge

Is a great place to start. I really like Night of Souls' Betrayal currently as well with D&T being somewhat common. I am also very high on Toxic Deluge at the moment.

I think the sideboard could use some updating, I don't like Swords to Plowshares for instance. Also, we need more than 1 Leyline of the Void. Meddling Mage still pulls his weight vs many combo decks, but I think going down to 3 is good. Gives us room for Leyline 2, and cutting Grafdigger's lets us play Leyline 3. This gives us:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Ponder (Possibly should be Leo instead)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library (Possibly should be Leo instead)

4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Meddling Mage
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Savannah
1 Dismember
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Duress
3 Thoughtseize (or 4 and 0 Duress)

That's definitely an interesting maindeck. 2 Toxic + 1 Pulse is a lot of extra removal though, and with 5 walkers MB I don't think the Sylvan Library is necessary. Your list seems kind of weak to combo right now; I get that you want to hedge against TNN builds, but I think you should do something like -1 Library, -1 Jace, -1 Pulse for +3 Hymns. If your meta is super light on combo, disregard, but otherwise I would suggest you seriously consider this. Anyway, nice list!

More generally, I'm confused as to why many people are playing Ponder in this list. Ponder is of course a great card, but shouldn't we be trying to maximize our chances of cascading into a 2-drop or Visions with Agents? Hitting Ponder isn't terrible but not nearly as good as hitting Visions/Hymn/Strix/Goyf/Decay. I think this deck should be playing as few 1-drops as possible, for this reason and also to make Chalice worse against us. Deathrite and Brainstorm are the exceptions since they are just THAT good.

[LarsLeif]

That's definitely an interesting maindeck. 2 Toxic + 1 Pulse is a lot of extra removal though, and with 5 walkers MB I don't think the Sylvan Library is necessary. Your list seems kind of weak to combo right now; I get that you want to hedge against TNN builds, but I think you should do something like -1 Library, -1 Jace, -1 Pulse for +3 Hymns. If your meta is super light on combo, disregard, but otherwise I would suggest you seriously consider this. Anyway, nice list!

More generally, I'm confused as to why many people are playing Ponder in this list. Ponder is of course a great card, but shouldn't we be trying to maximize our chances of cascading into a 2-drop or Visions with Agents? Hitting Ponder isn't terrible but not nearly as good as hitting Visions/Hymn/Strix/Goyf/Decay. I think this deck should be playing as few 1-drops as possible, for this reason and also to make Chalice worse against us. Deathrite and Brainstorm are the exceptions since they are just THAT good.

You can go back in the thread to read about the different inclusions in this list (Lejay here on the source a.k.a Jean-Mary Accart of Legacy GP top 8 fame used to play it a lot, and I did as well) but to add a quick TL;DR:

1. It has a lot of removal because it it tuned to beat fair decks game 1 (the number one reason to pick up shardless in the first place since the shell is fundamentally flawed if you want to beat combo consistently game 1 anyway). You can adapt vs combo and play a heavy amount of discard, but that hurts you in other ways.

2. For that reason (and because of the carefully tuned manabase that isn't hurt by fetching forest early) no hymns where played maindeck (very bad cascade and top-deck in grindy games).

3. Ponder was played instead of an additional land as the deck is somewhat prone to flood out if you play many lands, but Ponder can still find lands if needed. It's also a blue spell and a good top-deck.

4. The deck is actually better against combo than you realize from the maindeck. Sure, game 1 you are a dog, but post-board you bring in about 13 cards and become a huge favorite as you have counters, discard and hatebears.

The list was suuuper good when I played it and would probably still be fine (as Lejay said earlier it's very versatile) but I haven't played shardless in a long time now so maybe it is less good nowadays.

[Krimson Viper]

Played a few casual games tonight and I left a Jace on the table and didn't attack into him with Leo on the table. That felt disgustingly good.

[ORDAL]

You can go back in the thread to read about the different inclusions in this list (Lejay here on the source a.k.a Jean-Mary Accart of Legacy GP top 8 fame used to play it a lot, and I did as well) but to add a quick TL;DR:

1. It has a lot of removal because it it tuned to beat fair decks game 1 (the number one reason to pick up shardless in the first place since the shell is fundamentally flawed if you want to beat combo consistently game 1 anyway). You can adapt vs combo and play a heavy amount of discard, but that hurts you in other ways.

2. For that reason (and because of the carefully tuned manabase that isn't hurt by fetching forest early) no hymns where played maindeck (very bad cascade and top-deck in grindy games).

3. Ponder was played instead of an additional land as the deck is somewhat prone to flood out if you play many lands, but Ponder can still find lands if needed. It's also a blue spell and a good top-deck.

4. The deck is actually better against combo than you realize from the maindeck. Sure, game 1 you are a dog, but post-board you bring in about 13 cards and become a huge favorite as you have counters, discard and hatebears.

The list was suuuper good when I played it and would probably still be fine (as Lejay said earlier it's very versatile) but I haven't played shardless in a long time now so maybe it is less good nowadays.

Agree, and peoplehave to keep in mind that list make good shardless card post board.... always impact vs combo too

[Hrothgar]

You can go back in the thread to read about the different inclusions in this list (Lejay here on the source a.k.a Jean-Mary Accart of Legacy GP top 8 fame used to play it a lot, and I did as well) but to add a quick TL;DR:

1. It has a lot of removal because it it tuned to beat fair decks game 1 (the number one reason to pick up shardless in the first place since the shell is fundamentally flawed if you want to beat combo consistently game 1 anyway). You can adapt vs combo and play a heavy amount of discard, but that hurts you in other ways.

2. For that reason (and because of the carefully tuned manabase that isn't hurt by fetching forest early) no hymns where played maindeck (very bad cascade and top-deck in grindy games).

3. Ponder was played instead of an additional land as the deck is somewhat prone to flood out if you play many lands, but Ponder can still find lands if needed. It's also a blue spell and a good top-deck.

4. The deck is actually better against combo than you realize from the maindeck. Sure, game 1 you are a dog, but post-board you bring in about 13 cards and become a huge favorite as you have counters, discard and hatebears.

The list was suuuper good when I played it and would probably still be fine (as Lejay said earlier it's very versatile) but I haven't played shardless in a long time now so maybe it is less good nowadays.

Quote.
The G2 / G3 are good VS combo imho.

[FZA]

So I just listened to the Brainstorm Show's Shardless deck tech - it's nearly a year old, but still worth a listen if you enjoy this archetype.

One thing that I found interesting was that they advocate sideboarding out 2 copies of Abrupt Decay in the mirror. They didn't go into too much detail about this but said something about it being "clunky". I had never considered boarding out Decays in the mirror, because they're answers to Deathrite/Goyf/Strix as well as to an unchecked Lili or Sylvan Library, both of which we can lose to easily with no answer.

My sideboard plan for the mirror is usually to remove Force of Wills and some discard (Hymn is a 2-for-1 but also a bad topdeck/cascade late game) and bring in Disfigures (well, Fatal Pushes now) along with "grindy" cards like Library and Jace. I usually side in a V-Clique as well if I'm playing one.

Another topic: do you guys every side out Goyfs? The only time I do so is if I see my opponent bringing in Rest in Peace or Leyline for game 2, depending on what they're playing. Some people advocate removing them against Miracles because of StP, but it's not like we can make StP a dead card against us anyway.

[ironclad8690]

Boarding out decay in the mirror seems loose to me. Answering their permanents is a must. I'd have to hear what else they leave in and board out though.

I trim 2 goyfs vs combo decks like storm infect elves show and tell etc. You often only need 1 or 0 to win. If you have a meddling mage board you can cut all 4. I do not trim vs miracles, I'd rather cut DRS or the strixes if I need to board out some creatures.

[Quasim0ff]

Boarding out decay in the mirror seems loose to me. Answering their permanents is a must. I'd have to hear what else they leave in and board out though.

I trim 2 goyfs vs combo decks like storm infect elves show and tell etc. You often only need 1 or 0 to win. If you have a meddling mage board you can cut all 4. I do not trim vs miracles, I'd rather cut DRS or the strixes if I need to board out some creatures.

From the miracles side: I'm much, much less afraid of Tarmogoyf than Drs, if facing shardless. Goyf is just a dumb beater; Drs enables broken lines of play and completly neuters snapcaster if I don't draw removal for it.

[FZA]

Boarding out decay in the mirror seems loose to me. Answering their permanents is a must. I'd have to hear what else they leave in and board out though.

I trim 2 goyfs vs combo decks like storm infect elves show and tell etc. You often only need 1 or 0 to win. If you have a meddling mage board you can cut all 4. I do not trim vs miracles, I'd rather cut DRS or the strixes if I need to board out some creatures.

They suggested the following for sideboarding in the mirror:

+2 Disfigure, +2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Garruk Relentless
-4 Force of Will, -2 Abrupt Decay

While I mostly agree, I would personally leave the Hymns out and keep Decays in. Like I said earlier, I don't like Hymns in the mirror as they are bad topdecks/cascades. Would rather have Decay to answer their threats or kill a Strix to push through damage.

Also, with some lists playing Leovold, I think Decays are now completely mandatory to keep in the mirror. Leo just hoses us too hard if we let it live.


From the miracles side: I'm much, much less afraid of Tarmogoyf than Drs, if facing shardless. Goyf is just a dumb beater; Drs enables broken lines of play and completly neuters snapcaster if I don't draw removal for it.

I'm not in love with DRS against Miracles as it doesn't represent a threat on its own, which basically forces us to play out another creature and make Terminus a 2-for-1 or better. Snapcaster puts us in the weird spot of either holding up DRS activation all the time (and thus never actually getting to drain with it) or activating it and allowing a Snapcaster in response. I still wouldn't side it out though, as it partially protects us from Blood Moon and Back to Basics.

Against miracles I usually sideboard lightly: something like -2 Baleful Strix, -1 Jitte, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Dread of Night, +1 Library/Jace

Quasimoff, I think I played against you online yesterday (was on turbo depths, you wrecked me pretty hard with Miracles)

[Quasim0ff]

I'm not in love with DRS against Miracles as it doesn't represent a threat on its own, which basically forces us to play out another creature and make Terminus a 2-for-1 or better. Snapcaster puts us in the weird spot of either holding up DRS activation all the time (and thus never actually getting to drain with it) or activating it and allowing a Snapcaster in response. I still wouldn't side it out though, as it partially protects us from Blood Moon and Back to Basics.

Against miracles I usually sideboard lightly: something like -2 Baleful Strix, -1 Jitte, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Dread of Night, +1 Library/Jace

Quasimoff, I think I played against you online yesterday (was on turbo depths, you wrecked me pretty hard with Miracles)
Yeah, we played =)

I think making terminus a 2-for-1 argument is pretty poor in this matchup, in particular. Post board, you usually attack from so many angles, ie garruk, jace, liliana, hymn, visions etc, that you can usually generate enough value to keep up. I think you always want to present two threats, Drs + something. Otherwise swords is infinite time, which is basically all we want to have happen. Goyf is literally the least scary card in the matchup, as it does not gain, or represent, any value.

[Krimson Viper]

To be honest I like to take out all copies of Strix and Hymns and bring in Rod, Needle, Clique, Plague or NoSB, and K. Grip or Library. I've always debated switching a Goyf for ScOoze, but I've never done it. If I see a RIP, I'll take out Goyf right off the bat.

Has anyone thought about Liliana the Last Hope? I just found out this card existed today.

[Hrothgar]

From the miracles side: I'm much, much less afraid of Tarmogoyf than Drs, if facing shardless. Goyf is just a dumb beater; Drs enables broken lines of play and completly neuters snapcaster if I don't draw removal for it.

Quote.
Deathrite Shaman is very good vs Miracles.
Tarmo is not great.
I side out Tarmo vs Miracle.

[FZA]

Yeah, we played =)

I think making terminus a 2-for-1 argument is pretty poor in this matchup, in particular. Post board, you usually attack from so many angles, ie garruk, jace, liliana, hymn, visions etc, that you can usually generate enough value to keep up. I think you always want to present two threats, Drs + something. Otherwise swords is infinite time, which is basically all we want to have happen. Goyf is literally the least scary card in the matchup, as it does not gain, or represent, any value.

Fair enough. I was more speaking from general experience than in the context of this matchup specifically. I have never sided out DRS in Shardless vs Miracles.

I think the question is not DRS vs Goyf, but rather Goyf vs Hymn/Strix. Strix's body is near useless, but at least it cantrips. Goyf as you said doesn't actually generate value, but at it presents a must-answer threat. I have won games against Miracles on the back of a Goyf. You guys don't always have the answer for it.

Hymn is trickier to evaluate, but I like it a lot in the matchup. It can give you random free wins against bad keeps by the Miracles player, and hitting lands can stop Miracles from getting going. The matchup gets grindy, but I've found that the Miracles player usually still has 2-3 cards in hand late in the game rather than it coming down to an actual topdeck war.

So in summary my order of things to remove would be:

1. Jitte
2. Strix
3. Goyf

[FZA]

To be honest I like to take out all copies of Strix and Hymns and bring in Rod, Needle, Clique, Plague or NoSB, and K. Grip or Library. I've always debated switching a Goyf for ScOoze, but I've never done it. If I see a RIP, I'll take out Goyf right off the bat.

Has anyone thought about Liliana the Last Hope? I just found out this card existed today.

I thought about LtLH as a sideboard option against D&T and Elves. But is she really better than sweepers or -1/-1 enchantments?

[Krimson Viper]

I was thinking more against the grinder decks like the mirror or other BUG variants as opposed to Siding out LotV.

But even as I'm saying this, I'm starting to disagree with myself on LtLH.

[talpa]

Quote.
Deathrite Shaman is very good vs Miracles.
Tarmo is not great.
I side out Tarmo vs Miracle.



(...)
Hymn is trickier to evaluate
(...)
So in summary my order of things to remove would be:

1. Jitte
2. Strix
3. Goyf

I disagree.
I played Shardless a lot before switching to other highly customized lists of BUG Control, and I would never sideboard out Strixes before Goyfs.

I don't like too much Hymn To Tourach since Miracle can play well with an empty hand with the top 3 cards of his library effectively representing his hand; plus, HTT could be a dead draw later in the game, and we expect the game to go long.

As for deathrites vs goyfs, both have their upsides and downsides. The fear of opposing snapcaster while going for the drain effect can be easily circumvented by targeting your own graveyard.
Goyf is dumb, but I fear opposing Jaces since we have only Maelstrom Pulse to deal with it, while he has REBs to deal with our copies. An unchecked goyf could theoretically represent a threat to him, while a lone shaman would represent nothing. Because of this, I would consider keeping some goyf over shamans. In the past I used to board out some copy of each of them.

Last sunday I played against two miracles (on of which was Bonanni, winner of GP Lille) and won both; but I was playing BUG Control without shardless, so maybe this considerations don't apply exactly. This time I tried boarding out each copy of shaman and I was satisfied with that. We aren't trying to tempo them, so the drain effect is irrelevant. It could be important only to prevent them from flashbacking something, but as I said I think it's more important to fight them over the board state, since an unanswered Jace is a loss. I don't care fast mana early since the game is going long anyway, and I don't care life gain or drain for the same reason: you don't win on that. So all in all, I am reconsidering siding out shamans before goyfs, or at least keeping a couple of goyfs.

[Hrothgar]

I disagree.

Ciao Talpa!
:wink:

Honestly i don't have never side out Deathrite because he can remove a Plow or, much considerable, some REB effects.
In add to this, he can give me the chance to play some 3CC @turn two.

I'm in trouble for Hymn.
Hymn in the early game can help us and, sometimes, can destroy his hand...sometimes, you've right, is not relevant, especially if the Miracle player set up the Top and we are in the mid game.

What's your sideboard plan?

[cliqueMage]

Land (21)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures (15)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix


Draw/Manipulation (8)

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder

Interaction (14)

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Fatal Push
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Edict

I've been testing a Shardless list similar to yours btm10 and also a Team America midrange one (no goyfs) and I'm feeling that Shardless lists are stronger (but harder to play, at least for me).

I seen posts from you on both threads. Do you agree with me that Shardless seems stronger for the actual meta? Or it depends to much on every local metagame?

Why Leo is on the sideboard? Wich MU is he comming in?

Thanks!

[Krimson Viper]

I disagree.
I played Shardless a lot before switching to other highly customized lists of BUG Control, and I would never sideboard out Strixes before Goyfs.

I don't like too much Hymn To Tourach since Miracle can play well with an empty hand with the top 3 cards of his library effectively representing his hand; plus, HTT could be a dead draw later in the game, and we expect the game to go long.

As for deathrites vs goyfs, both have their upsides and downsides. The fear of opposing snapcaster while going for the drain effect can be easily circumvented by targeting your own graveyard.
Goyf is dumb, but I fear opposing Jaces since we have only Maelstrom Pulse to deal with it, while he has REBs to deal with our copies. An unchecked goyf could theoretically represent a threat to him, while a lone shaman would represent nothing. Because of this, I would consider keeping some goyf over shamans. In the past I used to board out some copy of each of them.

Last sunday I played against two miracles (on of which was Bonanni, winner of GP Lille) and won both; but I was playing BUG Control without shardless, so maybe this considerations don't apply exactly. This time I tried boarding out each copy of shaman and I was satisfied with that. We aren't trying to tempo them, so the drain effect is irrelevant. It could be important only to prevent them from flashbacking something, but as I said I think it's more important to fight them over the board state, since an unanswered Jace is a loss. I don't care fast mana early since the game is going long anyway, and I don't care life gain or drain for the same reason: you don't win on that. So all in all, I am reconsidering siding out shamans before goyfs, or at least keeping a couple of goyfs.
Could you share your BUG Control list? I've thought about switching to a successful control list for fun, but I need to know if I already own most of the pieces.

My next words aren't for you specifically, but on the matter as a whole. I also prefer Shaman over Goyf because I don't really want the game to go long. When the game goes long, Miracles has a better chance of winning because it is a control deck. Shardless does a really good job acting like an aggro or control deck, but it's really a midrange deck and that makes Shaman extremely important. Shaman is a win condition in itself, as I have won from six drains and nothing else on the board, and I don't think people know this, but Shaman also kept Snap in check in Modern which is why Snap's price exploded after his banning. Shaman also lets you play through Moon if you have just a swamp or forest in play, and I can still attack if there's a RiP in play. When things go really bad, Shaman is the better choice between the two.

[FZA]

Could you share your BUG Control list? I've thought about switching to a successful control list for fun, but I need to know if I already own most of the pieces.

My next words aren't for you specifically, but on the matter as a whole. I also prefer Shaman over Goyf because I don't really want the game to go long. When the game goes long, Miracles has a better chance of winning because it is a control deck. Shardless does a really good job acting like an aggro or control deck, but it's really a midrange deck and that makes Shaman extremely important. Shaman is a win condition in itself, as I have won from six drains and nothing else on the board, and I don't think people know this, but Shaman also kept Snap in check in Modern which is why Snap's price exploded after his banning. Shaman also lets you play through Moon if you have just a swamp or forest in play, and I can still attack if there's a RiP in play. When things go really bad, Shaman is the better choice between the two.

It seems to me like the debate isn't Goyf vs Shaman but rather Goyf vs Strix.

Is it better to have a 2-mana do-nothing (essentially) card that cantrips, or a 2-mana threat that's easily answered but can be very good if they don't answer it?

Strix pitches to Force, which is at least somewhat relevant I think.

[Krimson Viper]

It seems to me like the debate isn't Goyf vs Shaman but rather Goyf vs Strix.

Is it better to have a 2-mana do-nothing (essentially) card that cantrips, or a 2-mana threat that's easily answered but can be very good if they don't answer it?

Strix pitches to Force, which is at least somewhat relevant I think.

That could fall into what you bring in. I still run a Clique in my board so I will only be losing a single blue card. My other cards are also more impactful than Hymns and Strix.

[wcm8]

It seems to me like the debate isn't Goyf vs Shaman but rather Goyf vs Strix.

Is it better to have a 2-mana do-nothing (essentially) card that cantrips, or a 2-mana threat that's easily answered but can be very good if they don't answer it?

Strix pitches to Force, which is at least somewhat relevant I think.

tl;dr summary of below: It depends largely on the overall composition of your deck, but generally no.

Personally, I'm a proponent of the school of "Just Go F***ing Kill Them", i.e. there are no wrong threats, but there are certainly wrong answers. In the framework of an Aggro-Control BUG deck, Tarmogoyf seems to embody that philosophy quite well and demands a timely answer, whereas a 1/1 (regardless of its bonus abilities) doesn't present much of a problem -- Strix can more easily be ignored.

People often look at Goyf and just think of it purely as a vanilla beater, but it's important to consider its role in the Legacy metagame. It's functionally a defensive WALL against the vast majority of aggressive creatures (which is where you really want one of these guys in the first place), and by nature of its sheer size basically has a form 'death touch'. And unlike Strix, Goyf can typically survive an encounter against another threat and still go on to kill your opponent in a _reasonable_ number of swings. So from the perspective of providing defense, Goyf is typically better aside from against Flying creatures.

You're actually saving some space in your deck by playing Tarmogoyf that would otherwise need to be devoted towards a reasonable win-condition. A frequent issue with playing a durdly control deck is TIME, and trying to whittle your opponent down with an army of 1/1's and 2/2's is often going to result in a draw, regardless of how absurd and inevitable your board-state is. I can't help but shake my head at people who play BUG decks while cutting Tarmogoyf entirely, and are then left wondering why their overall win% starts to plummet. Especially given how common Delver variants are in the current metagame, playing Tarmogoyf seems like an obvious choice considering how good it is at dealing with just about everything not actually named Delver.

Games often end up in a Draw-Go state, and it's here where you can very clearly see the difference between playing a bunch of defensive do-nothings versus having some Big Guns. And a lot of games also come down to the last few points of life total, where attacking with a 5/6 makes a significant difference in the match outcome versus only being able to swing in with a 1/1.

THAT ALL SAID:

Strix is a pretty decent sideboard-ish type card, and I can understand why a lot of decks choose to play a few copies to bring in. But I think that Strix is a fairly late pick in terms of the array of creature options available in BUG colors (especially now with Leovold), and I'm saying this regardless of where upon the Aggro/Control spectrum your deck lies. I just think that people sometimes get blinders on and remember the few games where their Strix just happened to hold off an Eldrazi or Griselbrand or whatever, but then forget all of the games where Tarmogoyf would've been a lot better.

Strix is admittedly amazing in UBR Tezzerator, but that's a completely different archetype, and it's great there for different reasons than in BUG Control.

MORE SPECIFICALLY:

If I were going to play BUG Cascade, my main 60 would look like this:
22 Lands (Lejay's mix, *maybe* -1 Land for +1 Ponder)
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Agent
3 Leovold
2 Liliana
1 Jace TMS
4 Vision
4 BStorm
4 ADecay
1 MPulse
2 TDeluge (or *maybe* 1/1 split with Yahenni's Expertise)
1 SLibrary
(and *maybe* find room to cut a card or 2 for 1-2 Fatal Push)

I'm still a fan of Lejay's overall philosophy of playing a stream-lined version of the deck that sacrifices the game 1 combo matchup in order to have the perfect midrange package against the field. There just aren't enough slots to justify running Baleful Strix here, and if I were going to add more creatures I would first consider the following: Tombstalker; True-Name Nemesis; Vendilion Clique. And really, Strix would still be fairly low down the list of sideboard choices.

[talpa]

Excuse me for the off-topic, but in response to Hrothgar (ciao, www.tipo1.it è ancora online? :P) and Krimson Viper
My latest list of BUG Control WITHOUT Shardless:

10 fetch
1 swamp
1 forest
1 ISLAND
2 wastelands
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou

4 deathrite shamans
3 baleful strix
3 tarmogoyfs
3 true-name nemesis
2 leovold
1 snapcaster mage

4 force of will
3 thoughtseize

3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 maelstrom pulse

2 jace
1 garruk relentless

4 brainstorm
2 ponder
1 painful thruths

-------SIDEBOARD-------
2-3 surgical extraction
1 grafdigger's cage
1 vendilion clique
2 invasive surgery
1 flusterstorm
1 pithing needle
1 null rod
2 marsh casualties
1 dread of night
1 to the slaughter
1 misdirection


How I boarded against miracle last sunday:
OUT 3 seize 4 shamans
IN 1 surgical 1 vendilion 2 invasive surgery 1 needle 1 rod 1 dread of night 1 to the slaughter (going to 61 - you can avoid dread of night if you see they don't play mentors)

But all of this is quite off-topic since this Bug Control list plays a bit differently than shardless (especially tempo-wise, it's better at controlling and maybe also at having a resilient threat -nemesis, especially if you manage to surgical or delirium-counter their terminus- but slower).

[wcm8]

Your list belongs in the sister thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)/page66

[Krimson Viper]

Your list belongs in the sister thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)/page66

He knows, I just asked him to post it. It's my fault, my bad.

[Spaker71]

Hello everyone,

I recently played some tournaments with Shardless BUG and I met mixed success. Here's my 75 :


MAINDECK = 60

LANDS 22
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Misty Rainforest

CREATURES 15

4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 DRS
1 Leovold
2 Baleful Strix

SPELLS 20

4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach

PLANESWALKER 3

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor



SIDEBOARD = 15

1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
3 Toughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Garruk Relentless


More particularly (but not only), I played numerous grindy games against Jund, Delver decks (BUG, 4 Colors), Nic Fit, BUG-TNN and I realized that I mainly struggle with sideboarding. I often know what I want to sideboard in for sure, but I think that I fail to see the purpose of some wide-utility cards post-side that perhaps should be cut. I would like to go over those cards and discuss them with you in an overall approach more than in a specific MU approach (but maybe it would be best to do so) :


- Hymn to Tourach

I don't know when to sideboard out this card because I have the feeling that it can be relevant against fair decks, specifically grindy MU, but also against some combo when I need to shred my opponent's hand. I think I keep it post-side against Jund, BUG Delver and Nic-fit maybe more than I should. I never consider it to be an obvious dead card. How do you consider HTT ?
I also have a specific doubt ; do you keep HTT against Elves ? A good friend of mine is playing the archetype based on Julian Knab's decklist/guidelines and tells me that Elves cuts parts of the Combo (NO) and aims at the overload of creatures with Glimpse of Nature and grind with DRS/Wirewood/Visionnary game 2 and 3. I usually side-in Thoughtseize in place of HTT to get rid of Glimpse etc but Tourach also proved to be efficient in conjunction with spot/mass removal in order to limite the number of elves on the battlefield.


- Force of Will

FOW is obviously played as a mandatory safety against combo, but it's also sometimes great against fair decks to counter PW or problematic cards. On one hand I tend to take them all out against non-combo MU, thinking that it's best to play specific cards against specific threats. But on the other hand I'm sometimes willing to keep 2 in fair MU to have a bit more security and control over the game state as the card advantage of Shardless BUG can support pitch of the FOW.


-Basic Forest / Basic Swamp

Because of my hesitation regarding sideboarding, I regularly find myself cutting the basic forest (plus the swamp sometimes) against non-wasteland / non-Blood Moon decks. It usually doesn't matter "that much" (especially with the -1 Forest) since we run 4 DRS, but I don't think it's a real solution. Do you also sideboard out some basic lands or do you never alter your landcount, whatever the MU is ?


- Sylvan Library

Auto-include against any deck that plays attrition. Not welcomed if the opponent is too fast like Burn, Combo etc. But beyond that simple dichotomy, when do you choose to play it/not play it ? I understand that it connects with many purpose of Shardless : generating filter advantage, generating raw CA if need be, looking for specific answer in conjunction with fetchlands, setting up cascade with shardless.


- Shardless Agent

Since Shardless Agent is the core of the deck, I don't feel I can ever shave it. I can't find MU where it doesn't do anything since it gives us CA, pressure and pitch to FOW. Of course it's all-star when CA matters the most but what is it's purpose in the others MU according to you ?

BONUS QUESTION :
What do you think of Tombstalker nowadays as a singleton in the SB ? Since the printing of Fatal Push, the resurgence of TNN (thanks to Reid Duke) and the niche of Gurmag, don't you think that it could replace a Goyf post-side in BUG and mirror MU to apply pressure with evasion while dodging Push, Decay ?

Thank you for reading.

Greetings,

Spaker

[ironclad8690]

I used to cut some number of DRS vs miracles, but after speaking with a few miracle players I think this is wrong. I leave in DRS vs everything.

Tarmogoyf is trimable vs combo imo, you only really need multiples when your opponent can kill one or outclass your board. I go down to 2 pretty often vs combo. Also shaveable vs miracles, but I would never board out all 4 vs them.

Shardless I pretty much never cut, because post board your cascades are better (more discard vs combo, more removal vs fair).

Strixes I leave in if I need U count for FoW, but I board out vs TNN decks that don't have delver. I take out vs elves and miracles too, but if you've know your elf opp board out the entire comho id leave em.

Leovold I like all of the time, even vs D&T, but I dont think you want more than 1-2.

Brainstorm I have experimented cutting vs Elves, because I like as much removal and discard as possible, but I think this is probably not correct. It works for me though. Usually leave all 4.

Visions I shave vs some faster decks. Generally leave all vs slower decks (midrange/control). Only 1-2 copies come out ever.

Decay only comes out vs combo. Sometimes I leave 1 vs sneak for blood moon. Sometimes trim 1 vs lands.

FoW I cut vs mirror and grindy hymn decks, leave all vs tempo decks (including slower tempo like bant and TNN Bug), cut vs most midrange decks, leave vs combo.

I tend to board out Hymn vs fast fair decks where the board is the most important, like Grixis Delver, RUG Delver. I leave it in vs most grindy decks, and sometimes even bring my 3rd from sb (for mirror and jund and nic fit). I trim 1 if I need something to take out vs miracles or eldrazi on the draw. More trimable on the draw, can see increasing on the play.

Liliana I leave in most of the time, but cut vs dredge/zombardment. She really helps the lategame with jace. Can see cutting vs infect and elves, but I tend not to. Some ppl say to board out vs miracles, but I don't.

Thoughtseize (if in main) comes outside vs tempo and midrange. Still unsure vs d&t & Miracle.

Jace comes out vs most fast tempo, stays vs slow tempo (4c bug delver and slower). Cut vs infect and elves.

Maelstrom pulse stays mostly, but is cuttable vs combo that doesnt have sneak attack, or elves, infect. My philosophy is to overload removal vs elves and infect though, so I leave it.

Deluge comes out vs decks that dont have creatures. I sometimes leave vs potential empty the warrens, cut vs miracle (unless mentor heavy), cut vs Burn.

I mostly leave all lands, cut forest sometimes vs combo, cut wasteland sometimes vs miracle. Board in scrubland, tundra, savannah (if on Meddling Mage board) vs tempo decks that are more mana denial based, and d&T.

Usually leave in all Tar Pit.

Sideboard cards are mostly self explanatory, sylvan library I only board in vs non combo non fast tempo. Needle stays out unless SDT, Vial, Lands, Painter, Belcher, sneak attack decks, inkmoth. Probably some others. Meddling mages come in vs miracle, combo, lands, loam, jund. Usually vs miracles ill name terminus, but many cards are namable.

Most of my sideboarding philosophies are from gerry t articles or lejay, but I always found midrange fairly easy to sideboard with compared to tempo or combo decks.

[pipet76]

Hi! I haven't play this deck in a while and I've noticed that mosts of the lists run 3 copies of A Visions. Usually this was a 4 of, is there a reason why? Since cascading into this was the bomb

Also, how do we beat Lands? I doesn't seem easy at all

[ironclad8690]

Hi! I haven't play this deck in a while and I've noticed that mosts of the lists run 3 copies of A Visions. Usually this was a 4 of, is there a reason why? Since cascading into this was the bomb

Also, how do we beat Lands? I doesn't seem easy at all

It isn't the greatest topdeck. It could also be because the format sped up a bit. A lot more delver and combo and a lot less midrange compared to metagames past. Also Leovold is played a lot right now, you don't want to cascade into visions when opp has a Leo.

Lands is dependent on things like drs living, drawing your wastelands, having an unchecked tarmogoyf, planeswalkers out-resourcing them, surgical in g2-3. Sometimes you even win off of chumping for a turn or two with strixes. The matchup is unfavorable for sure.

[Spaker71]

Hi! I haven't play this deck in a while and I've noticed that mosts of the lists run 3 copies of A Visions. Usually this was a 4 of, is there a reason why? Since cascading into this was the bomb

This debate of the number of Ancestral Vision in Shardless BUG is quite old. Some people prefer to maximise the possibility to cascade into "draw 3" with agent. But by playing the full playset, you also increase your chance to suspend it on turn one. Sometimes, it's even more correct to play your suspend your ancestral on T1 before your DRS, depending on your hand, and what the opp is playing. Agreed : against some decks, it can be irrelevant since you'll be dead before turn 5. But if you encounter another midrange or tempo deck and you can manage to survive until mid-game ; you'll start to bury them under CA.

On the other hand, as ironclad8690 stated it, blind cascading with shardless into Ancestral while Leovold is on the other side of the battlefield is very risky. The danger is the same if the Ancestral was played on T1 : the opponent can decide to play Leovold the turn before our last suspension counter is removed.

Depending on your metagame (grindy MU ? Lot of Combo ? Many Leovold ?) I think it's reasonable to adjust your number of Ancestral Vision, as well as the rest of the list.

[Sigi85]

Most of my sideboarding philosophies are from gerry t articles or lejay, but I always found midrange fairly easy to sideboard with compared to tempo or combo decks.[/QUOTE]

Hi! could you link the Gerry T articles? Thanks a lot!

[ironclad8690]

Most of my sideboarding philosophies are from gerry t articles or lejay, but I always found midrange fairly easy to sideboard with compared to tempo or combo decks.

Hi! could you link the Gerry T articles? Thanks a lot![/QUOTE]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30617_The-Ultimate-Shardless-Sultai-Reference.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29266_The-Shardless-BUG-PRimer.html

[JustABee]

This past weekend I took Shardless, a deck I've been playing on and off throughout the years to a local tournament in NJ for a mox ruby. I ended up coming in second. I went undefeated in the swiss to a 3-0-2 record and entered the top 8 in 6th. Here is my list

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tarpit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Leovold

4 Ancestral Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana, of the Veil
2 Thoughseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Jace, TMS
1 Toxic Deluge

SB
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Fatal Push
1 Golgari Charm
2 Duess
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sylvan Library

I like the 4 discard spell split in the main as it gives me some more play vs combo decks. Even though I know I should really just be focused on taking down creature decks game one. I think the only changes I would make would be Leovold #2 over JtMS #1 and maybe a change to my graveyard suite. Leyline seemed fine when I had it vs ANT, but I'm not sure how Reanimator will play around it game three with access to enchantment removal.

[btm10]

I like the 4 discard spell split in the main as it gives me some more play vs combo decks. Even though I know I should really just be focused on taking down creature decks game one. I think the only changes I would make would be Leovold #2 over JtMS #1 and maybe a change to my graveyard suite. Leyline seemed fine when I had it vs ANT, but I'm not sure how Reanimator will play around it game three with access to enchantment removal.

I think your discard package is fine, and the only major change I'd make to your list is cutting a Vision for a Ponder (and maybe Leo and Jace for another Ponder and a Jitte), but I like Ponder a lot more than most people.

If a Reanimator player is playing around Leyline, it's doing its job. You'll likely be able to play a Deathrite, untap, and defend it with Force/Thoughtseize before they answer the Leyline, at which point you should be quite capable of winning. It's also the best piece of graveyard hate when it comes to turning your Hymns back into real cards.

[Spaker71]

Indeed your discard split looks appealing. I'm playing a similar list at the moment but I'm keeping the 3rd Liliana and the Pulse Maindeck as I prefer to focus on non-combo MU in game one but if my meta evolves into something more combo oriented, I'll surely try something like this.



I think your discard package is fine, and the only major change I'd make to your list is cutting a Vision for a Ponder (and maybe Leo and Jace for another Ponder and a Jitte), but I like Ponder a lot more than most people.

I think I get the choice of playing no JTMS nowadays with all the TNN and Leovold. But can you elaborate on the absence of Leovold in your suggestion ? Don't you think he deserves a maindeck slot in Shardless ?

[btm10]

I think I get the choice of playing no JTMS nowadays with all the TNN and Leovold. But can you elaborate on the absence of Leovold in your suggestion ? Don't you think he deserves a maindeck slot in Shardless ?

I think he's about as good as a third Liliana, and better than Jace. He may actually be worse than Tombstalker. Leovold is a perfectly fine hatebear against Storm and is very strong against Miracles, but does less than Liliana when it comes to locking creature decks out of the game, and Liliana is also better against Sneak and Show. Leo's body can be relevant, but he's going to trade with the removal spell and draw you a card way more frequently that he's going to take over a game the way Tombstalker or Liliana will.

[Spaker71]

I think he's about as good as a third Liliana, and better than Jace. He may actually be worse than Tombstalker. Leovold is a perfectly fine hatebear against Storm and is very strong against Miracles, but does less than Liliana when it comes to locking creature decks out of the game, and Liliana is also better against Sneak and Show. Leo's body can be relevant, but he's going to trade with the removal spell and draw you a card way more frequently that he's going to take over a game the way Tombstalker or Liliana will.

Thanks for the input. Maybe I'm overestimating him in the Shardless shell. I haven't done enough testing with my decklist to have a legitimate opinion on his relevance. I wanted to try another configuration of Lejay's approach by adding 2 Leovold (1 MD and 1 SD) and cutting the Sylvan Library or a JTMS. Still working on it.

I'm also thinking that tombstalker can shine (as a one-of) in Shardless and BUG in general against non STP-decks. A lot of decks choose to rely on FP and AD to deal with early creatures and Tarmogoyf and struggle when facing something beyond 3 or 4 CCM (like Shardless). Angler embodies that niche, and so can Tombstalker. Evasion is extremely relevant here.

Ironclad8690 : thank you for the articles of Gerry T. : )

[SeBass]

What do yawl think is the best graveyard hate at the moment. I know the answer will ppl be "it depends on your local meta".

1) Leyline of the Void: Very good if in your starting 7, but rather mediocre if not and it takes away at least 3 sideboard slots, which at the moment seem a little bit to much with reanimator on the decline. Can't be removed by Abrupt Decay.

2) Nihil Spellbomb & Relic of Progenitus: Cantrips, cheap, might not work with a revealed chancellor and opponents can play around it rather easy.

3) Surgical Extraction: Has wider application then the other ones, but does not have a permanent effect like Leyline.

4) Faerie Macabre: Probably not that good anymore, with Reanimator on the decline. Gets around Chancellor, can be needled/revokered.

5) Grafdigger's Cage: Good against Elves, Reanimator, Storm and Dredge but useless against Lands/Loam.

How many spots do you guys dedicate to gravehate and which are your choises? I am playing 3 Leylines atm, but I am rather unhappy with it. I think the correct number is closer to 2 than to 3.

[LarsLeif]

The choice of GY-hate is also very dependent on the deck itself, probably even more so than the local meta game.

For example - Surgical is at its best in spells matters-shells with either Delver, Snapcaster och YP etc.

Grafdigger's Cage also hits elves - which isn't very relevant if you are considering it in Miracles or combo (as those decks already have a good matchup vs elves). But since Shardless has a traditionally poor matchup against elves it is a good pick.

Spellbombs are mostly for value, but they can be ok and can even be boarded against Miracles to shut of Snapcasters.

Leyline is good in shardless as we pretty frequently can get up to 4 mana and hardcast in in some machups (vs Loam decks for example). In delver decks it is much worse.

Legacy is extremely diverse, sp looking at the structure of your deck usually gets you further than just meta-calling (unless you have a very small and unchanging metagame locally).

[ironclad8690]

I think 1 Cage is mandatory at the moment. I like 2 Surgicals other than that, mainly because I want to have a chance vs Reanimator, Lands, and Aggro Loam while also being able to neg a card from Storm or Show and Tell. I could just as easily see 3 Leyline of the Void though.

[ironclad8690]

So I want to see what you guys think about this.

I have tried a new sideboarding strategy vs Grixis Delver, and it is working out quite well.

Here is my current list for reference:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
2 Fatal Push
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Garruk Relentless/V Clique (this slot is always changing)

So, I used to think this matchup was about stopping their early assault at all costs, and I would board like this:

-2 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Something (usually a Lili Pulse or Visions)

+2 Fatal Push, +2 Golgari Charm

But now, I have been thinking about them more of like a grindy deck, and I have been boarding out all FoW instead. I have played two matches so far, and I feel like I have been doing much better. I think the FOW costing a card may have been a little too much to bear, you really need all of those blue cards.

Anyone else a fan of this sideboarding strategy?

Edit: If I see Stifle I would probably reconsider this and leave 3-4 FoW, probably boarding out the Hymn instead and something else.

[Jaytron]

So I want to see what you guys think about this.

I have tried a new sideboarding strategy vs Grixis Delver, and it is working out quite well.

Here is my current list for reference:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
2 Fatal Push
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Garruk Relentless/V Clique (this slot is always changing)

So, I used to think this matchup was about stopping their early assault at all costs, and I would board like this:

-2 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Something (usually a Lili Pulse or Visions)

+2 Fatal Push, +2 Golgari Charm

But now, I have been thinking about them more of like a grindy deck, and I have been boarding out all FoW instead. I have played two matches so far, and I feel like I have been doing much better. I think the FOW costing a card may have been a little too much to bear, you really need all of those blue cards.

Anyone else a fan of this sideboarding strategy?

Edit: If I see Stifle I would probably reconsider this and leave 3-4 FoW, probably boarding out the Hymn instead and something else.

TBH, this is how I've always boarded out FoW in the matchup.

Shardless was the midrange grinder, so I tried to play more 2 for 1's in favor of myself, rather than 2for1's in favor of the delver deck (like FoW). I pretty much turned into removal.dek and grinded them out of the game. BUG Delver might be a bit different though.

[btm10]

I think either approach is fine. Force is better at protecting us when we're most vulnerable, but is definitely worse at pulling us into the midgame where we're much stronger in topdeck wars, then becomes better again in the late game to stop us from dying to a topdecked Angler, Painful Truths, or running Bolts. I'm more surprised that you were cutting Liliana in that matchup.

[Karhumies]

What do yawl think is the best graveyard hate at the moment.

How many spots do you guys dedicate to gravehate and which are your choises?

vs Dredge: Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Grafdigger's Cage, Ravenous Trap

vs Reanimator: Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger's Cage, Extirpate, Leyline of the Void

vs Tarmogoyf, especially in the case you are not running any yourself post-sb: Relic of Progenitus

vs Snapcaster Mage: Grafdigger's Cage, Nihil Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus, Yixlid Jailer

vs Delve: Nihil Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus, Bojuka Bog

vs generic gy based combo decks: Extirpate, Lost Legacy, Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical Extraction, Yixlid Jailer. Extirpate and Surgical become better the more Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach you run, but they can be crappy to cascade into.

My choice into a "wide open" metagame would probably be 1x Grafdigger's Cage (all-around), 1x Nihil Spellbomb (value + mid speed) / Tormod's Crypt (speed), 1x Extirpate (sure to hit) / Surgical Extraction (speed), 0-1x Faerie Macabre (no cascade into). 3-4 slots total.

I like to run diversified hate because that's horrible for Dredge and other Cabal Therapy decks to deal with efficiently if you manage to get multiple hate cards into hand. Multiple leylines can be dealth with by a single Reverent Silence or Echoing Truth if that gets to resolve.

[ironclad8690]

I think either approach is fine. Force is better at protecting us when we're most vulnerable, but is definitely worse at pulling us into the midgame where we're much stronger in topdeck wars, then becomes better again in the late game to stop us from dying to a topdecked Angler, Painful Truths, or running Bolts. I'm more surprised that you were cutting Liliana in that matchup.

I was cutting Lili more right after SeaTac because most grixis players copied calcano with 4 peezy 4 stifle, and Lili wasn't doing enough. Usually vs the therapy version I would cut either pulse, a vision, or a force of will I guess, though I did try cutting a Lili once (but then I realized I had too few outs to angler)

[Kyuuri117]

It depends what delver variant you're up against doesn't it? Grixis and 4c are much grindier and capable of winning the long game than UR or RUG delver are, while RUG and UR are much lower to the ground. Shouldn't be sideboarding the same for these matchups.

Anyway, I haven't been on shardless for like six months now, but I was thinking of getting back into it. Are Hymn's good again? And I see people talking about cutting all copies of jtms from the mainboard, as well as not even running leovold. Is there a general concensus on this?

[btm10]

It depends what delver variant you're up against doesn't it? Grixis and 4c are much grindier and capable of winning the long game than UR or RUG delver are, while RUG and UR are much lower to the ground. Shouldn't be sideboarding the same for these matchups.


The discussion was about Grixis specifically.



Anyway, I haven't been on shardless for like six months now, but I was thinking of getting back into it. Are Hymn's good again? And I see people talking about cutting all copies of jtms from the mainboard, as well as not even running leovold. Is there a general concensus on this?

The deck is well positioned at the moment. Hymns are fine, but it seems like most people (at least around here) have switched to BUG Delver since the GP, so Hymn isn't quite as good as it was when Grixis was the most popular Delver variant, but it's still fine. I don't think 0 MD discard is a great choice since Eldrazi isn't keeping Storm down quite as much as it was a year ago, but the mix of Thoughtseizes and Hymns is worth considering based on the shape of your particular meta. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on Jace or Leovold. I'm seeing fewer of both, but I definitely seem to be in the minority who think that you want neither MD and just Leovold out of the sideboard. The main change from 6 months ago is that rather than it simply being a good idea to have a postboard plan to beat 3-4 Red Blasts + Snapcaster Mage, it's basically mandatory. My list hasn't changed much in the last couple of months, but I did cut my 21st land (a Tar Pit) for a second Ponder and it was a wash, while cutting the MD Dismember for a Tombstalker seemed to be the right choice. Not sure that I'll keep the Ponder over Tar Pit, but it's good to know that it works in principle. For reference, my last SB plan against Miracles was:

-3 Tarmogoyf
-3 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Toxic Deluge
+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
+1 Dread of Night
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Garruk Relentless

[Krimson Viper]

Forgot to mention that last week I got to play Yahenni's Expertise in a match and it was a complete blow out against Grixis Delver where I got to play it twice. It's obviously dead in the same match ups where Deluge is and I'm hoping to battle against D&T so I can see how it fairs there. I have two of those players in my store now, so I'm hoping they fall victim to it.

[ironclad8690]

So I played in the legacy challenge this past weekend, and I started off very well at 3-0. The wheels fell off however, and I finished in 34th place, outside of making my entry back.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestal Vision
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
2 Fatal Push
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach



Bug Delver: 2-1

RW Painter: 2-0

UR Painter: 2-1

Lands: 1-2 (punted this away)

Sneak and Show: 1-2

Burn: 1-2

Miracles (3 Predict variant I believe): 0-2

For a total record of 3-4.

The takeaway: I think the deck is still fine, but the online meta is heavily skewed anti-bug at the moment, probably because of the last GP. The miracles lists are playing 3-4 Predict and 4 Blasts, which really changes the matchup in their favor. I felt like I wanted the 4th Wasteland, and I felt like I wanted a Life from the Loam and a Jitte in my sideboard. I also felt like I wanted TNN in my maindeck as a threat that could stick around and demand a narrow answer. Either way I think this deck needs a major rework to be truly competitive again.

Thanks for reading!

[Krimson Viper]

When I had Jitte in my board, I almost never brought it in. What are you guys using it against? Honest question.

[ironclad8690]

When I had Jitte in my board, I almost never brought it in. What are you guys using it against? Honest question.

I mostly wanted it for Burn. I bring it in vs most creature matchups though, where you want more removal (Elves, Delver, Midrange).

[FZA]

When I had Jitte in my board, I almost never brought it in. What are you guys using it against? Honest question.

Jitte is amazing against Elves, D&T, and Burn. All of which can be difficult matches otherwise because the former 2 have more creatures than we have removal and the latter has inevitability that's sort of taken away by a Jitte if you can get it going.

It's also fine in the mirror, though not amazing by any stretch.

[Krimson Viper]

Ok, I can see the others, but not D&T. There have been a lot of times where I will have a Jitte, but the artifacts on the otherside are a huge problem, so then I'll drop Null Rod which I brought in. I always bring Rod in because it has such a huge impact against D&T, or am I side boarding differently than you guys?

[FZA]

Ok, I can see the others, but not D&T. There have been a lot of times where I will have a Jitte, but the artifacts on the otherside are a huge problem, so then I'll drop Null Rod which I brought in. I always bring Rod in because it has such a huge impact against D&T, or am I side boarding differently than you guys?

I've been running 2 copies of Pithing Needle over Null Rod. Miracles is my main target for those cards, and while I have usually ran 1 and 1 I've recently started to like Needle more because it not only hits Top but can also hit Jace/Gideon in a pinch.

It also shuts off half of Sneak & Show, and can even be put into play off of Show and Tell to name Griselbrand (sounds niche and it is, but this has won me games in the past).

Against D&T it can name MoM and Port in addition to the artifacts if necessary.

All around Pithing Needle is just becoming one of my favorite cards in the format.

[Merrioc]

Is there a BUG Aluren forum?

[Krimson Viper]

There is an Aluren thread.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2599-Deck-Aluren

[FZA]

It sort of saddens me that this thread, and also this deck, are pretty dead right now. With Miracles no longer being the favorable matchup it once was, and the rise of some other poor matchups, is it time to hang up the Agents at least for now?

[ironclad8690]

I'm still grinding leagues with it. Perhaps foolishly. Part of me wants to splash red for BBE and Pyroblast

[Krimson Viper]

It sort of saddens me that this thread, and also this deck, are pretty dead right now. With Miracles no longer being the favorable matchup it once was, and the rise of some other poor matchups, is it time to hang up the Agents at least for now?

I haven't been having an issue at my local level. Perhaps people are morphing the deck too much and forgetting where it came from?

[pipet76]

I haven't been having an issue at my local level. Perhaps people are morphing the deck too much and forgetting where it came from?

I can agree to that.

In any case more often people tend not to use Hymn when I've always ran 3 of them to splash them with some TSeize. That could be one of the problems.

Also, some players are using 2 mainboard leovolds making this deck even slower than before, don't know if that other great idea

[Krimson Viper]

I can agree to that.

In any case more often people tend not to use Hymn when I've always ran 3 of them to splash them with some TSeize. That could be one of the problems.

Also, some players are using 2 mainboard leovolds making this deck even slower than before, don't know if that other great idea

I've actually moved all discard to the side and took the advice of WCM8 in taking advantage of what match ups the deck really destroys: all fair decks. Game one was never positive and I've always felt like trying to shore it up at the sacrifice of hurting my game ones against decks that I'm suppose to beat was a sacrifice I am ok with. I'm still up in arms about Leo in the deck. I have no complaints as of yet. Emphasis on "yet."

[FZA]

I haven't been having an issue at my local level. Perhaps people are morphing the deck too much and forgetting where it came from?

That could be it although there are some troubling signs regarding Shardless in the current meta.

Miracles lists have moved to 3-4 Predict, which means they're basically sideboarded against us in game 1. Many have also gone down to 3 CB, and have gone back to Entreat as a win condition, which is much harder for us to deal with than Mentor. They're also all playing 4 red blasts in the board for the mirror, and we get hit by the splash damage of that. Between those, snapcasters, and counterspells, our AV and Jace can't resolve reliably.

Being that one of Shardless's main strengths traditionally is that it beats up on Miracles, this isn't good at all.

There's also the rise in popularity of these herp derp turn 1 blood moon decks, which are miserable for us to play against.

If you think about it over the past year or two other decks have gotten new tools: Delver got Gurmag Angler, Miracles got Mentor and Predict (ok Predict is not new but it's a pretty recent innovation), D&T has gotten a bunch of pushed creatures. Shardless has really only gotten Leovold, and Leo fits better into other decks than this one IMO. So I guess it's not terribly surprising that Shardless has lost some ground against the field.

[Krimson Viper]

That could be it although there are some troubling signs regarding Shardless in the current meta.

Miracles lists have moved to 3-4 Predict, which means they're basically sideboarded against us in game 1. Many have also gone down to 3 CB, and have gone back to Entreat as a win condition, which is much harder for us to deal with than Mentor. They're also all playing 4 red blasts in the board for the mirror, and we get hit by the splash damage of that. Between those, snapcasters, and counterspells, our AV and Jace can't resolve reliably.

Being that one of Shardless's main strengths traditionally is that it beats up on Miracles, this isn't good at all.

There's also the rise in popularity of these herp derp turn 1 blood moon decks, which are miserable for us to play against.

If you think about it over the past year or two other decks have gotten new tools: Delver got Gurmag Angler, Miracles got Mentor and Predict (ok Predict is not new but it's a pretty recent innovation), D&T has gotten a bunch of pushed creatures. Shardless has really only gotten Leovold, and Leo fits better into other decks than this one IMO. So I guess it's not terribly surprising that Shardless has lost some ground against the field.
You guys keep mentioning that Shardless beats up on Miracles, but I never found that to be the case. People say it, but I think that that was always a placebo effect and pilots being new. Now that the match up has been butting heads for awhile, it's coming to light that it's really a fifty-fifty deck match up with pilots being the deciding factor. At least that's been my experience playing against Miracles.

I still eat up D&T, Delver, Eldrazi with ease and Miracles being a hard grindfest usually comes down to top decks. Combo is still the same. I haven't seen Leo enough, strangely, to really come down to a decision on him, but I can tell you that he was amazing every time I landed him. I don't know, just sounds like you guys have gotten bored with the deck and just want to switch. Maybe your meta adapted to you and you're not sure how to adjust? Turn one Blood Moon effects seems to me that your meta is pointing in the direction of them hating you out.

[FZA]

You guys keep mentioning that Shardless beats up on Miracles, but I never found that to be the case. People say it, but I think that that was always a placebo effect and pilots being new. Now that the match up has been butting heads for awhile, it's coming to light that it's really a fifty-fifty deck match up with pilots being the deciding factor. At least that's been my experience playing against Miracles.

I still eat up D&T, Delver, Eldrazi with ease and Miracles being a hard grindfest usually comes down to top decks. Combo is still the same. I haven't seen Leo enough, strangely, to really come down to a decision on him, but I can tell you that he was amazing every time I landed him. I don't know, just sounds like you guys have gotten bored with the deck and just want to switch. Maybe your meta adapted to you and you're not sure how to adjust? Turn one Blood Moon effects seems to me that your meta is pointing in the direction of them hating you out.

Well I play online so I don't think the meta adjusting is the issue, but yeah I think this deck can be solid it might just be time to take a short break :tongue:

I find shardless to be an absolute blast to play and so I would be very hesitant to give up on the deck. Just want to make sure I'm not being stubborn.

With regards to the Blood Moon decks specifically, maybe it's just time to start packing some hydroblasts in the board?

[ironclad8690]

I just 4-1'nd a league.

Miracles: 2-0
Miracles: 2-0
Miracles: 2-1
Death and Taxes: 2-1
Sneak and Show: 1-2

I am playing this right now

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Mealstorm Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Undergorund Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Fatal Push
1 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Notion Thief
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

Main differences from previous lists being up Strix count to 3, I have begun to realize how good this guy is vs miracles, Tar pit up to 2, since miracles is so played, hymn to 3 dropping thoughtseize form main altogether, and notion thief in sideboard as additional miracles hate/mirror. I forgot how much smoother 3 strix makes the deck, it can be the difference between hitting that 3rd land drop or getting it one turn too late.

Here is my current SB plan vs miracles which seems to be working:

Out: 1 Hymn, 1 Toxic Deluge, 2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Tarmogoyf
In: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Notion Thief, 1 Null Rod, 1 Garruk Relentless

Only 1 of these is answered by a Pyroblast, which I think is important. I am cutting decays because I found them sitting dead in my hand for most of the game, most miracles pilots have gone the cut counterbalance route rather than the overload route. I wouldn't recommend boarding out 2 if you know they leave CB in.

Thoughts I have had recently:

1) Cutting the basics. This is an "improve good matchups and forget bad matchups" approach, but I am about 50/50 on keeping them in. Without them, I would add a U Sea and a Bayou, or add red and add a Taiga and a Badlands.

2) Adding red. Like me previous point mentioned, if we are going to face miracles so much maybe we just want BBE and Pyroblasts. Grudge out of the SB is super important too, and we gain an important tool in Pyrostatic Pillar. Trust me, the last thing miracles wants to see is Pyrostatic Pillar. Also makes the Storm matchup a little better.

3) Adding White for hatebears SB. I know we have used meddling mage in the past, but a 2/2 split between canonist and c priest could really help out vs their respective decks. Maybe go full hatebears and play 2 revoker too.

[FZA]

I just 4-1'nd a league.

Miracles: 2-0
Miracles: 2-0
Miracles: 2-1
Death and Taxes: 2-1
Sneak and Show: 1-2

I am playing this right now

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Mealstorm Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Undergorund Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Fatal Push
1 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Notion Thief
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

Main differences from previous lists being up Strix count to 3, I have begun to realize how good this guy is vs miracles, Tar pit up to 2, since miracles is so played, hymn to 3 dropping thoughtseize form main altogether, and notion thief in sideboard as additional miracles hate/mirror. I forgot how much smoother 3 strix makes the deck, it can be the difference between hitting that 3rd land drop or getting it one turn too late.

Here is my current SB plan vs miracles which seems to be working:

Out: 1 Hymn, 1 Toxic Deluge, 2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Tarmogoyf
In: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Notion Thief, 1 Null Rod, 1 Garruk Relentless

Only 1 of these is answered by a Pyroblast, which I think is important. I am cutting decays because I found them sitting dead in my hand for most of the game, most miracles pilots have gone the cut counterbalance route rather than the overload route. I wouldn't recommend boarding out 2 if you know they leave CB in.

Thoughts I have had recently:

1) Cutting the basics. This is an "improve good matchups and forget bad matchups" approach, but I am about 50/50 on keeping them in. Without them, I would add a U Sea and a Bayou, or add red and add a Taiga and a Badlands.

2) Adding red. Like me previous point mentioned, if we are going to face miracles so much maybe we just want BBE and Pyroblasts. Grudge out of the SB is super important too, and we gain an important tool in Pyrostatic Pillar. Trust me, the last thing miracles wants to see is Pyrostatic Pillar. Also makes the Storm matchup a little better.

3) Adding White for hatebears SB. I know we have used meddling mage in the past, but a 2/2 split between canonist and c priest could really help out vs their respective decks. Maybe go full hatebears and play 2 revoker too.

I like your Miracles sideboard plan a lot, assuming they are on a 4 Predict, no mentor build. Against Mentor builds I'd leave in Decay and Deluge and just side out more Goyfs and Strixes.

I think with the white hatebear splash, a single Scrubland in the board is enough. None of the combo decks that you need hatebears against are likely to be messing with your mana, so I don't think it's necessary to alter the main deck manabase if you go down this route.

[MorphBerlin]

You guys keep mentioning that Shardless beats up on Miracles, but I never found that to be the case. People say it, but I think that that was always a placebo effect and pilots being new. Now that the match up has been butting heads for awhile, it's coming to light that it's really a fifty-fifty deck match up with pilots being the deciding factor. At least that's been my experience playing against Miracles.

I still eat up D&T, Delver, Eldrazi with ease and Miracles being a hard grindfest usually comes down to top decks. Combo is still the same. I haven't seen Leo enough, strangely, to really come down to a decision on him, but I can tell you that he was amazing every time I landed him. I don't know, just sounds like you guys have gotten bored with the deck and just want to switch. Maybe your meta adapted to you and you're not sure how to adjust? Turn one Blood Moon effects seems to me that your meta is pointing in the direction of them hating you out.

Funny I would sign your statement but I would switch Miracles and D&T :D I have not had any problems against Miracles locally or on cokatrice, I think my win% was a little above 60% (before Leo came out, haven't played much since then). Also at EW Paris I beat up two miracles pilots who were pretty good from what I can tell (of course their opinion was, that I had it all all the tme). I'm not sure how it is agaisnt the 3-4 predict versions but Leo should come in handy here?

I played 2 TS, 2 Leo, 3 Tamogyf yesterday and found the deck to be pretty good, I think you could cut the discard as Combo is really low atm in't it (torm at least).

[Nestalim]

Blood Moon T1 deck and burn seems to rise a bit, maybe Hydroblast and Chill can be an option in side, can't be ?