[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[GerryT]

I continue to see people who run Chill as a two-of in their sideboards, presumably against Burn. Given that the Burn matchup is so incredibly lopsided already, have people actually found it helpful for winning? I'd almost rather completely give up on ever reliably beating Burn and instead just focus on using those two sideboard slots to shore up other weaker matches.

Read the rest of the posts in the thread. I played Chill for a variety of archetypes, not just Burn. Burn isn't that bad of a matchup anyway.

[Kyle]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of Chill, as it's decent against Burn, Goblins, Jund, and some Storm decks.

[baptist]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of Chill, as it's decent against Burn, Goblins, Jund, and some Storm decks.

Question is: "Is there enough Burn and Goblins in the meta to play Chill?"

Against Jund and Storm there are better cards to play. I cannot afford to play 2 Chill on sb because I want to focus on other matchups: RUG, BUG, ANT, Show and Tell, Elves.

[Cire_dk]

Question is: "Is there enough Burn and Goblins in the meta to play Chill?"

Against Jund and Storm there are better cards to play. I cannot afford to play 2 Chill on sb because I want to focus on other matchups: RUG, BUG, ANT, Show and Tell, Elves.

So what would you advice. What does your SB look like?

[Julian23]

To be fair, Chill is pretty good against Jund. 4-mana Punishing Fire (5 mana if you count the "rebuy") and 6 mana Bloodbraid Elf are just way too slow. Especially since you wouldn't be able to cast any red card you cascade into.

[GerryT]

Question is: "Is there enough Burn and Goblins in the meta to play Chill?"

Against Jund and Storm there are better cards to play. I cannot afford to play 2 Chill on sb because I want to focus on other matchups: RUG, BUG, ANT, Show and Tell, Elves.

Chill is for more than those two decks. I like it vs Sneak and Show too. They typically have red sideboard cards like Blood Moon or REB.

RUG-Baleful Strix/Liliana

ANT/SNT-Hymn to Tourach

SNT/Elves-Golgari Charm

[Lim-Dul]

Hey there

i am playing a more or less average list. maybe exept for the 2/2/2 thoughseize/hymn/liliana spilt which is not that common as far as i can see in this thread.

my MB:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Baleful Strix

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will

2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs

But i am not worried about my MB. i would like some advice/suggestion about the SB and "how to sideboard" for the decks around. i would be very happy to hear some thoughts of some experienced players, cause i suck at boarding :cry:

my meta is quite diverse (which dose not make it easier for me) at my LGS:
- lots of "fair" decks such as esper stoneblade, deathblade, Jund, bant-versions, bug-mirror, UW-RIP-Helm-Miracle, DnT...
- but there are always some combo-fans around playing Ant, TES, SneaknShow, Omnitell, High Tide, Elfes..

My SB:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to tourach
1 Force of will
1 Notion Thief
2 Pyrexian Revoker
2 Baleful strix
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 jitte
2 Nihil spellbomb

Some of my reasonings/thoughts behind the cards in SB for some of the MUs:

Esper Stoneblade: not a bad MUs, the biggest fear is the batterskull, so -2 hymn for +2 Thoughtseize to pick Batterskull and jace and -3 Fow for the notion theif, pluse and golgari charm

Deathblade: surprisingly much harder: CA is key (i assume) hence -3 Fow and +1 jitte , +1 pluse and +1 charm.. but, what else? how could i improve this Mu?

RUG: -3Fow -1 Pulse -2 jace; +2 Nihli Spellbomb +2Strix +2 Thoughtseize

Jund: I hate the MU cause i dont know how to handle it especially the P.Fire... Again CA is important. -3 Fow; what more to take out? i should bring in 2 Spellbombs, 1 Jitte and 2 strix

DnT: ??? i havent played that MU very often, but it is around at m LGS: what are the weakest card MB? +2 Revoker +1pluse

Ant:-4 Abrupt Decay -1 Strix -1 Pluse -1 Jace; +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Hymn +1Fow +2 Spellbomb

TES: -4 Abrupt Decay -1 Strix -1 Jace; +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Hymn +1Fow +1 Charm

High tide: -4 Abrupt Decay -1 Strix -1 Pluse ; +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Hymn +1Fow +1Notion Thief

SNt: -4 Abrupt Decay -1 Strix; +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Hymn +1Fow and +2 Revoker but what to take out?

Omnitell: -4 Abrupt Decay -1 Strix; +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Hymn +1Fow; i that enough to win this MU?


please let me know what i am doing wrong and enlight me! :smile:
- i realize that i take out Fow in all noncombo MUs. is that a bit risky?

Sorry for my english...

[martijnend]

I have yet to try Chill, but it seems like a great addition to the deck. The most matches I lose are playing red in some way and Punishing Fire is just terrible.
I did a local tournament last sunday with 36 players, where I went 4-2 and just missed out on top 8 on tiebreakers. Lost a match to a kind of BR control deck with the Dark Depths/Hexmage combo in it, which I felt should be a favorable matchup. Interestingly, the finals was a Merfolk mirror.

@GerryT: how do you feel about our matchup against Merfolk and how would you board against it?

@ Lim-Dul: a few remarks about you sideboarding.
Against RUG you decide to bring in Thoughtseize, while I would recommend to side it out of your md entirely. Most of the time you will stabilize against a RUG player on low life and the thoughtseize lifeloss might be the thing that lowers you to bolt range. My board is a bit different, but to give you an idea of what I do: -3 FoW, 3 Jace, 3 Thoughtseize + 2 Liliana, 2 Spellbomb, 2 Strix, Pulse, Loam and Hymn.
Against SNT and any other deck that runs Misdirection I think you should cut the Ancestral Visions. Together with the decays that should give you lots of board space. Bring in all the Strixes though. They are blue for FoW, but more importantly they might be able to block their guy.
Against DnT I'll recommend Golgari Charms. They are just about your best out against a Mother/Thalia board. I feel like this is one of the hardest matchups in all.

[marumari]

Round 5 and 6 of today's Channel Fireball videos has Caleb Durwald playing UB Control versus Lejay here playing Shardless BUG, for those who are interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvmRgHhak1c&list=PL04lbfeNAaS9ybefgTPqi3ECs6FFTSzbY

[Atog]

Chill is for more than those two decks. I like it vs Sneak and Show too. They typically have red sideboard cards like Blood Moon or REB.

RUG-Baleful Strix/Liliana

ANT/SNT-Hymn to Tourach

SNT/Elves-Golgari Charm

Hello, what you like about Whipflare in this deck?

[baptist]

So what would you advice. What does your SB look like?

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Baleful Strix
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Force of Will
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse

[GerryT]

Hey there

i am playing a more or less average list. maybe exept for the 2/2/2 thoughseize/hymn/liliana spilt which is not that common as far as i can see in this thread.

my MB:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Baleful Strix

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will

2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs

But i am not worried about my MB. i would like some advice/suggestion about the SB and "how to sideboard" for the decks around. i would be very happy to hear some thoughts of some experienced players, cause i suck at boarding :cry:

my meta is quite diverse (which dose not make it easier for me) at my LGS:
- lots of "fair" decks such as esper stoneblade, deathblade, Jund, bant-versions, bug-mirror, UW-RIP-Helm-Miracle, DnT...
- but there are always some combo-fans around playing Ant, TES, SneaknShow, Omnitell, High Tide, Elfes..

My SB:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to tourach
1 Force of will
1 Notion Thief
2 Pyrexian Revoker
2 Baleful strix
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 jitte
2 Nihil spellbomb

Some of my reasonings/thoughts behind the cards in SB for some of the MUs:

Esper Stoneblade: not a bad MUs, the biggest fear is the batterskull, so -2 hymn for +2 Thoughtseize to pick Batterskull and jace and -3 Fow for the notion theif, pluse and golgari charm

Deathblade: surprisingly much harder: CA is key (i assume) hence -3 Fow and +1 jitte , +1 pluse and +1 charm.. but, what else? how could i improve this Mu?

RUG: -3Fow -1 Pulse -2 jace; +2 Nihli Spellbomb +2Strix +2 Thoughtseize

Jund: I hate the MU cause i dont know how to handle it especially the P.Fire... Again CA is important. -3 Fow; what more to take out? i should bring in 2 Spellbombs, 1 Jitte and 2 strix

DnT: ??? i havent played that MU very often, but it is around at m LGS: what are the weakest card MB? +2 Revoker +1pluse

Ant:-4 Abrupt Decay -1 Strix -1 Pluse -1 Jace; +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Hymn +1Fow +2 Spellbomb

TES: -4 Abrupt Decay -1 Strix -1 Jace; +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Hymn +1Fow +1 Charm

High tide: -4 Abrupt Decay -1 Strix -1 Pluse ; +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Hymn +1Fow +1Notion Thief

SNt: -4 Abrupt Decay -1 Strix; +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Hymn +1Fow and +2 Revoker but what to take out?

Omnitell: -4 Abrupt Decay -1 Strix; +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Hymn +1Fow; i that enough to win this MU?


please let me know what i am doing wrong and enlight me! :smile:
- i realize that i take out Fow in all noncombo MUs. is that a bit risky?

Sorry for my english...

RUG and Deathblade are all about board advantage. While card advantage is of secondary importance, which is why people want to side out FOW, the thing that matters most is not falling behind on board. Example: Allowing them to untap with Dark Confidant or "playing around" things out of RUG rather than progressing your board/not using your mana every turn are two ways to lose those matchups.

Against RUG, I like 2-3 FOWs. Thoughtseize is fine since it's a cheap 1for1, but the lifeloss isn't irrelevant and the games occasionally come down to topdeck wars, which makes Thoughtseize really bad. Cut all the Jaces vs RUG. They are very bad.

Not sure how many FOWs I'd want against Deathblade but it's probably 2. Disfigure helps in both matchups. Whipflare is a little more unwieldy.

Against midrange matchups, the discard is alright but you don't want too much. Against something like Jund or Esper, the games will likely go long, where you'll start drawing useless discard spells. Keeping the full 8 in against something like Jund is a good way to lose.

You want Golgari Charm vs Show and Tell decks to kill Leyline.


I have yet to try Chill, but it seems like a great addition to the deck. The most matches I lose are playing red in some way and Punishing Fire is just terrible.
I did a local tournament last sunday with 36 players, where I went 4-2 and just missed out on top 8 on tiebreakers. Lost a match to a kind of BR control deck with the Dark Depths/Hexmage combo in it, which I felt should be a favorable matchup. Interestingly, the finals was a Merfolk mirror.

@GerryT: how do you feel about our matchup against Merfolk and how would you board against it?

Ended up testing a lot against Merfolk because Josh Cho wanted to kill some time before the Invitational. I won most of the games by typically ignoring Aether Vial and focusing on kill their creatures. Hymn to Tourach is pretty good against Tribal Vial decks as long as you aren't getting tempoed out.

FOW is pretty bad, as is Jace. Kill Lords to make Tarmogoyf a relevant blocker or just race them with Goyf/Deathrite/removal.

[1rakete]

Round 5 and 6 of today's Channel Fireball videos has Caleb Durwald playing UB Control versus Lejay here playing Shardless BUG, for those who are interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvmRgHhak1c&list=PL04lbfeNAaS9ybefgTPqi3ECs6FFTSzbY

Thx a lot for the link.

@Gerry

Thx for sharing your testing experience with us! What is your current list?



I made another 4-1 last Sunday going 2nd at a local tournament with >30. This makes my record now 4-1-1, 4-1-1, 4-1 with this deck in local tournaments with >30 participants.

My list was:

Maindeck:

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Creeping Tar Pit

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Vindilion Clique
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse

[martijnend]

Ended up testing a lot against Merfolk because Josh Cho wanted to kill some time before the Invitational. I won most of the games by typically ignoring Aether Vial and focusing on kill their creatures. Hymn to Tourach is pretty good against Tribal Vial decks as long as you aren't getting tempoed out.

FOW is pretty bad, as is Jace. Kill Lords to make Tarmogoyf a relevant blocker or just race them with Goyf/Deathrite/removal.

Good, that's just about what I thought as well. I was always a bit puzzled about the Vials though, but concentrating on the creatures they vial in seems better indeed. Thanks.

@1rakete: the complete absence of Baleful Strix in your list is interesting. What is your reasoning behind it? I always think of Strix as one of the best cards in the deck and willing to up the number of Strixes in my 75 from 3 to 4.

My sideboard as it is now:
2 Baleful Strix
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Force of Will
2 Chill
1 Maelstrom Pulse

The md is just about average with a 3-1 split between wasteland en tar pit and a 3-2 split between thoughtseize and hymn. No Liliana's main.

[Lejay]

Round 5 and 6 of today's Channel Fireball videos has Caleb Durwald playing UB Control versus Lejay here playing Shardless BUG, for those who are interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvmRgHhak1c&list=PL04lbfeNAaS9ybefgTPqi3ECs6FFTSzbY
Was playtesting with Pierre Sommen's list. Back to mine now, still the same I last gave.

[1rakete]

@1rakete: the complete absence of Baleful Strix in your list is interesting. What is your reasoning behind it? I always think of Strix as one of the best cards in the deck and willing to up the number of Strixes in my 75 from 3 to 4.



Clearly a metagame decision. Imho Strix is really good in all grindy matchups where you dont face lingering souls, but those became rare around here. So I cut 3 Strix and added 3 Liliana for testing. I liked Liliana a lot, especially since I felt this decks needs more maindeck removal additionally to abrupt decay. But playing Strix is also great in my eyes, I just lack the space for this card atm. I even thought about cutting tarmogoyf for it, but this is a bad idea since goyf is really a key to win vs merfolk and goblins (as GerryT already mentioned).

What I really would never play in this deck is Hymn. Again, as GerryT mentioned, in a lot of matchups you dont lose because of card disadvantage but because you are behind on the board. With targeted discard, you can aim at the key cards which would really make you lose, with Hymn its a gamble what you hit. Also, the cc1 of thoughtseize is very good for the curve of this deck in my eyes.

[metronome2charisma]

Clearly a metagame decision. Imho Strix is really good in all grindy matchups where you dont face lingering souls, but those became rare around here. So I cut 3 Strix and added 3 Liliana for testing. I liked Liliana a lot, especially since I felt this decks needs more maindeck removal additionally to abrupt decay. But playing Strix is also great in my eyes, I just lack the space for this card atm. I even thought about cutting tarmogoyf for it, but this is a bad idea since goyf is really a key to win vs merfolk and goblins (as GerryT already mentioned).

What I really would never play in this deck is Hymn. Again, as GerryT mentioned, in a lot of matchups you dont lose because of card disadvantage but because you are behind on the board. With targeted discard, you can aim at the key cards which would really make you lose, with Hymn its a gamble what you hit. Also, the cc1 of thoughtseize is very good for the curve of this deck in my eyes.

so you cut strix because its bad against lingering souls? isn't liliana even worse against souls?..if i was facing souls a lot i would want scavenging ooze and jitte...

[BlackStarDeceiver]

so you cut strix because its bad against lingering souls? isn't liliana even worse against souls?..if i was facing souls a lot i would want scavenging ooze and jitte...

He simply said that the non-Souls grindy matchups are getting less relevant, not that there are more Lingering Souls decks showing up.
Liliana is a pretty good card, i don't think that we should argue about that.
For now we got the american non Liliana lists (e.g. GerryT) and the european lists (Lejay, Sommen) with some number of Lilianas between the main and the side.

I have played both versions and i feel both have their merits, there is not really a 'better' list between the two builds.

[noahgs]

I was wandering how this deck fares against combo. whats the Mu look like? does it depend on how much discard? is it a toss up? with 3 fow, 2+ thoughtseize and main deck hymn, u would think it would be good but my freinds told me otherwise.

[1rakete]

so you cut strix because its bad against lingering souls? isn't liliana even worse against souls?..if i was facing souls a lot i would want scavenging ooze and jitte...

BlackStarDeceiver completely got me right here already. :-)

@noahgs

Preboard you are usually a bit behind (more or less, depeding on the number of FoW and targted discard), with your sideboard you should be able to turn the matchup slightly in your favour. Important: You should have in your sideboard solutions for White Leyline and some instant speed disruption (for example Clique, Mindbreak Trap etc...).

[baptist]

BlackStarDeceiver completely got me right here already. :-)

@noahgs

Preboard you are usually a bit behind (more or less, depeding on the number of FoW and targted discard), with your sideboard you should be able to turn the matchup slightly in your favour. Important: You should have in your sideboard solutions for White Leyline and some instant speed disruption (for example Clique, Mindbreak Trap etc...).

Presb your matchup against Show & Tell decks is bad.
Postsb the matchup is good if they have no Leyline of Sanctity in play. If they have Leyline of Sanctity it depends on your opening hand (discard / counters). Golgari Charm is the best answer to Leyline of Sanctity.

[baptist]

He simply said that the non-Souls grindy matchups are getting less relevant, not that there are more Lingering Souls decks showing up.
Liliana is a pretty good card, i don't think that we should argue about that.
For now we got the american non Liliana lists (e.g. GerryT) and the european lists (Lejay, Sommen) with some number of Lilianas between the main and the side.

I have played both versions and i feel both have their merits, there is not really a 'better' list between the two builds.

Gerry's list vs European list
What are the mean differences in matchups? f.e. Is there a matchup that is bad for the Gerry's list that is good for the European list?

I suppose the European list is a bit better against creature heavy decks (Liliana) and Gerry's list is a bit better against combo (more discard).

[Lejay]

I can sum it up relatively quickly, even if that will probably be subjective. Gerry focuses more on beating the worst match-ups for the shardless archetype as a whole (mainly combo), heavily sculpting even the main deck with that in mind (much more discards). That also explains cards as unusual as chill for the burn match-up in the sideboard, even if we can present many more justifications to them.
I think my list takes more into account the strenghts and weaknesses of the concept. I try to focus on what the deck does well to have the most synergistic main deck against a delimited field, only counting on the sideboard to improve the combo match-ups. Running non targeted answers in it helps against being limited in slots since I can side the same 11 (or at least 8) cards in many very different match-ups.

These differences simply come from our different philosophies about the archetype. I read/heard several times Gerry say shardless beats everything / loses to nothing, implying it's the best deck in the format. Therefore he thinks he is bound to being strong enough against combo decks game 1 and tries to improve the deck in that direction as long as the percentages gained against combo are clearly more important than the percentages dropped against fair decks.
I personnally consider the deck as the best control deck in a metagame of fair decks (whereas esper/deathblade is the best control for a combo metagame). With that in mind, I'll choose to play the deck in those kinds of metagame and therefore try to build it to optimize the percentages against that field in particular. Even if I don't drop completely the combo match-up game one, it's far lower than with Gerry's MD. However I improve it significantly post sb, and that is often enough. Though of course still lower than Gerry's overall combo %.
If my metagame has lots of combo decks, I just switch to BUG Delver or whatever deck is better suited.

In my experience even the most broken deck cannot win against everything. Even worse, the more you step away from a focused combo game plan and get closer to a control game plan, the less chances you have to win against a wide range of decks since control decks can't be adapted to everything in a format as diverse as legacy. This way of thinking is probably what very often puts me on the combo side.
I feel my approach is more mature. I think so because like many players still do, I used to think the way Gerry does, but years taught me to better consider the differences between metagames. Maybe not playing standard and focusing on legacy also helped realizing that. In such a small format it's far easier to define a best deck.

Edit : ah didn't read everything from your post (edited it ?). Your supposition is good.
I don't think there is a match-up switching from bad to good or the other way around between versions. But there can be some significant changes in terms of percentages.

[luckme10]

Surprised no one has brought this up, but I've been running a pair of Glissa, the Traitor in my main these days. She's the bees knees with 4 shardless agents and 4 baleful strix.

[phazonmutant]

Surprised no one has brought this up, but I've been running a pair of Glissa, the Traitor in my main these days. She's the bees knees with 4 shardless agents and 4 baleful strix.

That sounds pretty sweet, but is BGG realistically castable?

[Lejay]

You really can't rely on that Glissa. Remember : she's a traitor.

I like the fact that in addition to the effect the body is relevant. As a control deck it prevents even goyfs from attacking. It also survives whipflare. Bad point is it's dead to bolt but there are some lower curve targets for that. I'll test her.

[HammafistRoob]

Surprised no one has brought this up, but I've been running a pair of Glissa, the Traitor in my main these days. She's the bees knees with 4 shardless agents and 4 baleful strix.

I absolutely love that card as a 1of GSZ target in my 3c Junk list. I understand there's a huge difference in these two decks but I believe the principle still stands that she is a must answer threat. She can single handidly win games against most creature decks, but she absolutely craps on Merfolk if you can't hold them off islandwalk. However she may be a bit awkward in a deck without Zenith, I do believe it's definitely a fringe playable and worth trying here.

EDIT- Ohran Viper Is another interesting one. Worse against creatures but better against control and combo.

[luckme10]

Deathrite is what really made the card more playable. It really can help with the mana stabilization.
In addition, Abrupt Decay gives us that cheap uncounterable removal that allows us to consistently kill creatures from the battlefield a bit more effectively.
You really haven't lived until you've reoccurred a shardless agent to cascade into ancestral visions.
If Glissa is a fringe card, then this deck really build itself around her without even realizing it.
Basically, Glissa plays nice with the artifact creatures, potentially offering even more card advantage, and fits into the control shell very well.

Try it out for yourself.

[Korvo]

Im really interested how your list looks like with Glissa MB. Do you play 2 oder 3 of her? How much Strix are you playing?

[mike1987]

What is the general strategy against rug? I always seem to have trouble having more than 2-3 lands on board against them with their wastelands and stifles :frown: , making it very hard to play around daze/pierces/snares. For the rug matchup I will just sb out 1 FOW and 3 JTMS for 2 Liliana and 2 baleful strix.

[_Fortune_]

What is the general strategy against rug? I always seem to have trouble having more than 2-3 lands on board against them with their wastelands and stifles :frown: , making it very hard to play around daze/pierces/snares. For the rug matchup I will just sb out 1 FOW and 3 JTMS for 2 Liliana and 2 baleful strix.

BBD just posted a 75 minute video examining the BUG vs. RUG matchup here:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26337_BBD-vs-Kenny-Shardless-BUG-vs-RUG-Delver.html

[Lejay]

What is the general strategy against rug? I always seem to have trouble having more than 2-3 lands on board against them with their wastelands and stifles :frown: , making it very hard to play around daze/pierces/snares. For the rug matchup I will just sb out 1 FOW and 3 JTMS for 2 Liliana and 2 baleful strix.

Play control, be patient, block>attack 95% of the time, don't rush into stifle but let them keep their land open, don't rush into daze with your important spells unless you won't be able to play around it at all, RUG is my best match-up so play my version.

[Cire_dk]

BBD just posted a 75 minute video examining the BUG vs. RUG matchup here:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26337_BBD-vs-Kenny-Shardless-BUG-vs-RUG-Delver.html

I like the idea of having FOW in SB. Not sure about 4 Jaces. SB seems to narrow? Since we are low on spot removal Garruk as a one of could be usefull.

@Lejay is it possible to put a link to your most current list in your sig? Thx.

[luckme10]

Im really interested how your list looks like with Glissa MB. Do you play 2 oder 3 of her? How much Strix are you playing?
It's pretty much a typical bug list. 2 glissa, 4 strix. But maybe I can show you a bit about what role glissa should primarily have.

I work for a financial institution so I generally try to look at deckbuilding the same way I look at portfolio management. So here's my tactical asset allocation based on the sligh curve benchmark.

1 mana slot: 9-13
2 mana slot: 6-8
3 mana slot: 3-5
4 mana slot: 1-3
X spell (fireball, etc.): 1-3
One-shot Artifact/LD: 2-5
One-shot Direct Damage (Bolts, Incinerates, etc.): 8-10
Utility land (Mishra, Strip, etc.) 4-8
Red Mana Land 15-18

1 mana slot:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
Sligh: 9-13
Mine: 8
Underweight -1

2 mana slot:
4 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
Sligh: 6-8
Mine: 7

3 mana slot:
4 Shardless Agent
2 Glissa, the Traitor
Sligh: 3-5
Mine: 6
Overweight: +1

4 mana slot:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sligh: 1-3
Mine: 3


X spell (fireball, etc.):
4 Ancestral Visions
Sligh: 1-3
Mine:4
Overweight: +1

One-shot Artifact/LD:
4 Abrupt Decay
Sligh: 2-5
Mine: 4



One-shot Direct Damage (Bolts, Incinerates, etc.)Since we're not playing red, the direct damage turns into additional disruption spells.

3 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
Sligh: 8-10
Mine: 6
Underweight -2


Utility land (Mishra, Strip, etc.)
3 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
Silgh: 4-8
Mine: 5

Mana Land
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 verdant catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Island
Sligh: 15-18
Mine: 17


Summary
1cc underweight -1 to maximize the shardless agent potential. Deathrite doubles as mana acceleration.
3cc overweight +1 the 3cc because I think deathrite can help with the mana for glissa and I wouldn't drop a shardless.
x spell overweight +1 again we want to maximize shardless potential so we maximize ancestral visions
One-shot disruption underweight -2.


What does this tell us?
Most of the overweights and underweights are there strictly to accommodate the shardless agent combo. Which means the main purpose of Glissa is to be used as disruption. I guess I think glissa's body act as sufficient disruption in addition to another draw engine works in my best interest.

[Lejay]

@Lejay is it possible to put a link to your most current list in your sig? Thx.
My list doesn't change much.
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 3 Whipflare

[baptist]

My list doesn't change much.
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 3 Whipflare

Why do you play a swamp? Would a Creeping Tar Pit, the 4th Underground Sea or a 2nd Badlands not be superior?

[Viridia]

With atleast 1 Swamp or Forest you can still cast Deathrite into Decay under a Blood Moon for example. I suppose that's the main reason :-)

[Lejay]

Facing moon effects or B2B/wastelock/whatever in your metagame is a reason to run the swamp yes. Second main reason is to have a way to secure T1 DRS T2 Liliana against wasteland.
Against tempo decks it has some value as well.

This slot is removable if your metagame doesn't have any particular pressure on the mana base and lacks tempo decks. For example I would run Tar pit in its place if I was in a metagame with lots of control decks or any deck with planeswalkers.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Been looking into playing this deck so I took it for a test run today at one of the shops I frequent for Legacy. I ran a pretty stock Gerry T List with a third Wasteland instead of a fourth Underground Sea only because I'm waiting for the latter to come in the mail. I also only ran 1 Strix in the SB since the friend I borrowed cards from for the deck only had three so I replaced the fourth Strix with a Notion Thief in the board. I went 2-2 today in a four round swiss, going 2-1 against Patriot Tempo, 2-0 against Deathblade, 1-2 against Goblins, and 0-2 against Combo Elves.

Overall, I’m satisfied with the deck, and I think I’ll switch over to it from Jund since I’ve always wanted to play with Jace and Cascading into AV is too stupid to pass up. My only question to other Shardless BUG players is how do I shore up the Elves MU? I playtested this MU this recent Wednesday at my LGS and couldn’t figure out how to beat it. I probably need to adjust my board since a fourth FoW and a little more discard doesn’t seem to cut it half the time. Cards I’m considering: Engineered Plague (Good against Elves and Goblins, but seems too narrow. Might be okay for a LGS tournament, but not sure if I’d play them in a big tourney), Golgari Charm (Versatile, which I like, but doesn’t answer a lot of Elf creatures since many of them have more than 1 toughness), and Lejay’s whipflare tech (seems pretty cool, will have to test).

[Darkness]

Been looking into playing this deck so I took it for a test run today at one of the shops I frequent for Legacy. I ran a pretty stock Gerry T List with a third Wasteland instead of a fourth Underground Sea only because I'm waiting for the latter to come in the mail. I also only ran 1 Strix in the SB since the friend I borrowed cards from for the deck only had three so I replaced the fourth Strix with a Notion Thief in the board. I went 2-2 today in a four round swiss, going 2-1 against Patriot Tempo, 2-0 against Deathblade, 1-2 against Goblins, and 0-2 against Combo Elves.

Overall, I’m satisfied with the deck, and I think I’ll switch over to it from Jund since I’ve always wanted to play with Jace and Cascading into AV is too stupid to pass up. My only question to other Shardless BUG players is how do I shore up the Elves MU? I playtested this MU this recent Wednesday at my LGS and couldn’t figure out how to beat it. I probably need to adjust my board since a fourth FoW and a little more discard doesn’t seem to cut it half the time. Cards I’m considering: Engineered Plague (Good against Elves and Goblins, but seems too narrow. Might be okay for a LGS tournament, but not sure if I’d play them in a big tourney), Golgari Charm (Versatile, which I like, but doesn’t answer a lot of Elf creatures since many of them have more than 1 toughness), and Lejay’s whipflare tech (seems pretty cool, will have to test).

I think It's just understanding on what cards are key for them and what they need. Between Forces, Thoughtseizes, Hymn, and Decay, you should be able to prevent their progression for the combo. Stop their Glimpses, Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinels, and their GSZ's and you should be ok. Remember they are a combo deck that can play an aggro plan, getting a Goyf online asap is key to applying pressure. Currently I am running a one of Pernicious Deed as a sweeper against many decks, including elves. I also have a Vendilion Clique in my board to interrupt combo decks and apply pressure.

[SansSerif]

Has anyone had much experience using Massacre? I am considering 2-3 in the sideboard to bring against Death and Taxes and the many Stoneforge variants in my meta.

If played properly, I could take out a 1 and/or 2 drop in the beginning of the game for no mana, which would basically win the game. I find that if I can make it to turn 4 or 5 without losing board advantage I generally win against these decks.

[maurobad2k4]

Has anyone had much experience using Massacre? I am considering 2-3 in the sideboard to bring against Death and Taxes and the many Stoneforge variants in my meta.

If played properly, I could take out a 1 and/or 2 drop in the beginning of the game for no mana, which would basically win the game. I find that if I can make it to turn 4 or 5 without losing board advantage I generally win against these decks.

There are a few Mavericks (with Mirran Crusader MD), D&T and Blade variants in my meta so I tried Massacre this last weekend. It was backbreaking and I will certainly use again.

[Zombie]

Elves is a midrange deck first and foremost. The combo plan is secondary. Kill Wirewood Symbiote on sight, it's the lynchpin of our fair gameplans. Plague is bad, too many 2-toughness critters, and Dryad Arbor and Symbiote don't die to it. Then it's NO=>Pro=>Have Liliana or lose, and the occasional random Archdruid. For sweepers, you probably want Perish or perhaps Whipflare. Perish conveniently solves a resolves Progenitus, too.
If they're about to Resolve a Hoof, take note of what cards don't have summoning sickness and kill them. Perish => Unhappy Elf player.

Elves has a ton of plans, identifying the one which we're on quickly and dismantling it is key. Robbed of the proper synergies, we're a pile of 1/1s in one colour and tribe, aka roughly the most hateable things ever.

Grafdigger's cage is nasty, shuts down both NO and GSZ, the latter of which is our main form of artifact removal.

If Elves is your main problem, Darkblast is nasty. Stalls us, grows your Goyfs.

[Darkness]

Has anyone had much experience using Massacre? I am considering 2-3 in the sideboard to bring against Death and Taxes and the many Stoneforge variants in my meta.

If played properly, I could take out a 1 and/or 2 drop in the beginning of the game for no mana, which would basically win the game. I find that if I can make it to turn 4 or 5 without losing board advantage I generally win against these decks.

If you're trying to hate for DnT, I think dread of night is strictly a better card. It kills all of the problem cards that the deck actually cares about, and you can cascade into it. It's also something you can bring in for lingering souls decks. It's less impactful against maverick but still does some work.

[Darkness]

My list doesn't change much.
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 3 Whipflare

Lejay, I'm highly considering running 23 lands instead of 22, I feel that the only time the deck ever loses is when it falls behind on its mana drops. I have two Hymns MD which I am considering dropping for my fourth fourth FoW and the 23rd land. Do you ever want them in a certain meta or do they just not serve you well?

[BlackStarDeceiver]

If you're trying to hate for DnT, I think dread of night is strictly a better card. It kills all of the problem cards that the deck actually cares about, and you can cascade into it. It's also something you can bring in for lingering souls decks. It's less impactful against maverick but still does some work.

Gol-gari-Charm

That cards does everything you expect from Dread while being a good all around card against white Leylines and Supreme Verdict

[sakimmd]

Gol-gari-Charm

That cards does everything you expect from Dread while being a good all around card against white Leylines and Supreme Verdict

Do you really side in Golgari Charm against a supreme verdict deck?

[GerryT]

I can sum it up relatively quickly, even if that will probably be subjective. Gerry focuses more on beating the worst match-ups for the shardless archetype as a whole (mainly combo), heavily sculpting even the main deck with that in mind (much more discards). That also explains cards as unusual as chill for the burn match-up in the sideboard, even if we can present many more justifications to them.
I think my list takes more into account the strenghts and weaknesses of the concept. I try to focus on what the deck does well to have the most synergistic main deck against a delimited field, only counting on the sideboard to improve the combo match-ups. Running non targeted answers in it helps against being limited in slots since I can side the same 11 (or at least 8) cards in many very different match-ups.

These differences simply come from our different philosophies about the archetype. I read/heard several times Gerry say shardless beats everything / loses to nothing, implying it's the best deck in the format. Therefore he thinks he is bound to being strong enough against combo decks game 1 and tries to improve the deck in that direction as long as the percentages gained against combo are clearly more important than the percentages dropped against fair decks.
I personnally consider the deck as the best control deck in a metagame of fair decks (whereas esper/deathblade is the best control for a combo metagame). With that in mind, I'll choose to play the deck in those kinds of metagame and therefore try to build it to optimize the percentages against that field in particular. Even if I don't drop completely the combo match-up game one, it's far lower than with Gerry's MD. However I improve it significantly post sb, and that is often enough. Though of course still lower than Gerry's overall combo %.
If my metagame has lots of combo decks, I just switch to BUG Delver or whatever deck is better suited.

In my experience even the most broken deck cannot win against everything. Even worse, the more you step away from a focused combo game plan and get closer to a control game plan, the less chances you have to win against a wide range of decks since control decks can't be adapted to everything in a format as diverse as legacy. This way of thinking is probably what very often puts me on the combo side.
I feel my approach is more mature. I think so because like many players still do, I used to think the way Gerry does, but years taught me to better consider the differences between metagames. Maybe not playing standard and focusing on legacy also helped realizing that. In such a small format it's far easier to define a best deck.

Edit : ah didn't read everything from your post (edited it ?). Your supposition is good.
I don't think there is a match-up switching from bad to good or the other way around between versions. But there can be some significant changes in terms of percentages.

When most decks are 2% of the metagame, it's like a metagame doesn't exist which is basically what Legacy is. Sure, there are the top three decks that comprise 20-40% of the field, but that's still not a large number. For example, last weekend I played against Belcher, Burn, Mono-Blue, and Aggro Loam. There are times when whatever prep you do to beat RUG, Show and Tell, Deathblade, etc is going to be worthless.

If I'm playing a durdle-y midrange deck, I want to have a shot against everything. Shardless BUG is a natural favorite against most decks, and with a little tuning, you can be prepared for basically any deck in the tournament. Why would you skew it away from beating combo if you didn't have to? So your RUG matchup can go from 65% to 75%?

[Korvo]

@GerryT: so whats your SB when you say you are prepaired for everything?

[catmint]

Do you really side in Golgari Charm against a supreme verdict deck?

Supreme Verdict Deck aka Esper usually plays lingering souls and/or dark confidant. "countering" a verdict will often seal a game since they rightfully rely on it to resolve.
So, yes if you play it you side it in.

[Cire_dk]

@GerryT: so whats your SB when you say you are prepaired for everything?

@ GerryT Maybe you can post your current MB as well?

Being prepared for everything is interesting. The end of the day I personally think the pilot of a deck is the most important factor. You can copy any TOP 8 deck but fail every time. Understanding why you play certain cards works best. This seems obvious but it is still overlooked. Especially Side boarding is a skill that tests you everytime. Having a perfect sideboard is useless unless you board well. Of course this is what makes magic and especially Legacy so much fun :smile:

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Supreme Verdict Deck aka Esper usually plays lingering souls and/or dark confidant. "countering" a verdict will often seal a game since they rightfully rely on it to resolve.
So, yes if you play it you side it in.

Thnaks for pointing this out. I do side them in against Miracles, which happen to have 1-2 Verdicts around but mostly to kill Leyline/CB/RIP. It's just a more versatile card than Dread of Night with some additional applications against a vast majority of the field. You don't want to lose against T0 Leyline against Omnitell (thanks Lejay).

[catmint]

If you want to "prepare for everythign" golgari charm is a pretty good example of how to achieve that. Look at elves which is very troublesome. Dread of night, Krosan grip - not so hot.

[sakimmd]

Supreme Verdict Deck aka Esper usually plays lingering souls and/or dark confidant. "countering" a verdict will often seal a game since they rightfully rely on it to resolve.
So, yes if you play it you side it in.

I meant Miracles actually. But I agree, verdict is more played in esperblade (because Miracles already have terminus I guess). And Golgari Charm is a tool versus Souls/verdict deck.



Thnaks for pointing this out. I do side them in against Miracles, which happen to have 1-2 Verdicts around but mostly to kill Leyline/CB/RIP. It's just a more versatile card than Dread of Night with some additional applications against a vast majority of the field. You don't want to lose against T0 Leyline against Omnitell (thanks Lejay).

Here I disagree^^ Just about Miracles in fact. I don't plan to deal with rest in peace anyway and rely on Decay to destroy Counterbalance.

And Leyline in Miracles? It's possible, but I would not side in Golgari Charm to deal with a potential Leyline from Miracles. If I see a leyline post side okay but I would not bring in in the dark.

I like Golgari Charm. I actually play it. I just wanted to point out how it can be a false good versatile card sometimes.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

[...]

I like Golgari Charm. I actually play it. I just wanted to point out how it can be a false good versatile card sometimes.

I would not generally, but 2 people locally do play 4 Leylines and they bring them against Liliana decks just to avoid the ultimate, so i bring the charms. ;)

This was more to point out how versatile the card can be, even the Regenerate is relevant. If people play Nic Fit a lot it works pretty well. It kills Moat and Humility and i already killed a Sneak attack with it so i'm sold that this card deserves 2 slots ind the Sideboard.

[Viridia]

I've been testing this deck a little bit for a while and reading up on stuff and have to start by saying that 1. I have a deep hate for Tarmogoyf, but he's probably needed in the deck and 2. I really like Glissa :)

So here's the list that i want to continue testing with and hopefully performing at tournaments:

Mainboard (61)

21 Lands
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

17 Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Glissa, the Traitor
4 Shardless Agent
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique


20 Other spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize

3 Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor



Sideboard (15)

3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Whipflare
2 Liliana of the Veil


It's 61 cards atm, but i'm not sure what to cut. I do however really love the little red splash for EE and Whipflare :)

[sakimmd]

It's 61 cards atm, but i'm not sure what to cut. I do however really love the little red splash for EE and Whipflare :)

you cant' play EE and Shardless in the same deck.

[luckme10]

you cant' play EE and Shardless in the same deck.

I don't know, with glissa, EE becomes a repeatable spell. Sounds pretty nasty to me.

[Korvo]

First of all i think its better to play with 1 basic Swamp when you play Glissa (or Lili). It stabilises your mana base and lets you play a Shaman even if a Blood Moon is on the field. Second: i dont think that Force is SO good in main. Im sharing my opinion with Brian Braun-Duin (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26337_BBD-vs-Kenny-Shardless-BUG-vs-RUG-Delver.html). I tested a lot of times the last few weeks with and without Force and i never had the feeling i need it against any deck except combo.

Heres my Playlist:

Land (22)
2xBayou
1xCreeping Tar Pit
2xMisty Rainforest
4xPolluted Delta
1xSwamp
2xTropical Island
3xUnderground Sea
4xVerdant Catacombs
3xWasteland


Creature (17)
3xBaleful Strix
4xDeathrite Shaman
2xGlissa, the Traitor
4xShardless Agent
4xTarmogoyf

Artifact (1)
1xUmezawa's Jitte


Sorcery (9)
4xAncestral Vision
3xHymn to Tourach
2xThoughtseize

Instant (8)
4xAbrupt Decay
4xBrainstorm

Planeswalker (3)
3xJace, the Mind Sculptor

This version of BUG is very stable. It feels awesome to have a Glissa equipped with a Jitte. Im not pretty sure if 2 Glissa are better to play than 2 Lilis, but when you cant get rid of her she is incredible. With all the Strix and Agents in this deck Glissa may be the right choice. Ok Lili has a better impact but she can more easy be countered (f.e. Spell Pierce) and also dies to a Bolt or Decay.

For the EE discussion: i prefer playing a Jitte but with Glissa i think the idea is no so bad. Should try it out.

[catmint]

I don't get the logic behind playing more late game stuff in favour of Force of Will if we have so much card advantage and late game bombs already. Force is of course only "needed" against combo (which you can expect 20%+ of the meta btw), but it is also a very good card to not fall back too much in tempo against fast fair decks. You don't want to die with 7 cards in hand. The card disadvantage is not a problem in this deck - beeing "overwhelmed" early is, so for me Force maindeck is set.

[Einherjer]

Cutting Force of Wills is probably just making us clearly inferior to Jund. Midrangecascade-deck? I'd play Jund any moment of the week over your list.
And I agree with everything catmint said, about this point.


Additionally - I really just don't get the hype behind Glissa. It's a if-if/win-more/-card if you ask me. Her manacost make it harder to play utilitylands like Wasteland / Ruins, her abilities are very conditional, and even then don't end the game. Her body/combatstats are probalby okay - though not as aggressive as Goyf.

EE and Agent? *sighs* Just like playing Crucible and RIP in the same deck. There could be a timeframe where it can work... could.

Greetings

[Korvo]

I was sure you disagree Phillip. But does Force make the MU against Jund so much better? And why is everyone talking about Jund? Aren't there other decks to deal with?

For ex. look at the video i posted before. BBD had no Force in his MB and goes against RUG. (he only lost one game) The first thing BBD had done if he played Force main, is to board it out.
And in my opinion Glissa is a threat you have to deal with and fits great into the deck. As is Lili.

Nevertheless it is not quite like me to play without Force. But the last few playtesting felt not bad without it. (against Jund!) In our metagame (Austria) Force surely would be better main. Cause our players really like playing Combo. But i'm sure thats not the case all over the world.

[Einherjer]

Force is not for the Jund-matchup. What I was saying, is that Jund is the better Shaman-Cascadedeck if there are no Forces mainboard. Despite the fact that Force produces carddisadvantages, it produces, as catmint pointed out, both, "tempo" and an answer to any spell, which is important in some MUs, probably most. In addition to this it gains quite some strength in the lategame because you can easily afford 1-2ing the opponent if you drew 3 right before. Still a good trade.

Greetings

[rancOr_]

I would never drop FoW completely( atleast not in any competitive setting). I can see going down do 3,but how u expect to win from combo without any counters md and 4-6cards max that can interact? The deck is really good as it is-don't get too greedy by giving up fows just for some extra value against midrange decks(which u have more then enough already). Even saying u bring in X cards post sb against combo doesn't justify that.

[Darkness]

These lists with 21 lands are shocking to me. I just upped my land count to 23 lands, I feel like the only times I lose is when I fall behind on mana.

[Lejay]

When most decks are 2% of the metagame, it's like a metagame doesn't exist which is basically what Legacy is. Sure, there are the top three decks that comprise 20-40% of the field, but that's still not a large number. For example, last weekend I played against Belcher, Burn, Mono-Blue, and Aggro Loam. There are times when whatever prep you do to beat RUG, Show and Tell, Deathblade, etc is going to be worthless.

If I'm playing a durdle-y midrange deck, I want to have a shot against everything. Shardless BUG is a natural favorite against most decks, and with a little tuning, you can be prepared for basically any deck in the tournament. Why would you skew it away from beating combo if you didn't have to? So your RUG matchup can go from 65% to 75%?

Yes Legacy’s range is very wide. Yes it’s hard to prepare specifically for the metagame of next week-end. But that’s why for years I have built my legacy sideboards according to game plans rather than for specific match-ups. That doesn’t have a lot to do with our discussion about preparing for combo main deck or not. In that case the only metagame consideration to figure out is “what is the percentage of combo decks in general”. Will it be 10, 20 or more than 30% ? It’s when you answer that question that you can take a good decision. And that has nothing to do with considering precise decks that represent 2% of a field, which is indeed very hard and useless to figure out.

In your sample example from last week-end you name “Belcher, Burn, Mono-Blue, and Aggro Loam”. I don’t think for example that you should feel much more prepared than I am with my list against belcher. You can argue that my list will be less good presideboard indeed. Taking your invitational list I concede that 2 seize and 1 pulse (and less important 3 htt) are better than 4th fow alone (unless we consider the combo player always wins the die roll). But if we look at post sb you bring in :
SB: 2 [6E] Chill
SB: 1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
Whereas I bring in 3 whipflare, 2 revokers, 2 cliques (even if for this card the clock counts more than the diruption in the match-up), 1 pulse and 4 discards at 1cc. I feel much more favored after G1 and there are several reasons to consider post sb games as the main focus.

The first consideration is that against combo you won’t be able to know what your opponent is on for first game quite often (at least in SCG opens). This is obviously a bigger problem against the belcher you faced, but even if that is less of an issue against high tide or show and tell, I think you will agree with me that it is still quite often significant.
That’s one of the reasons I accept to lose game ones more often. I’ll focus on the second and main reason after the paragraph on discard..

Considering precisely shardless and our deckbuilding philosophies another major difference in that you are very focused on discard to disrupt the opponent. I can’t fault you much on precisely the main deck card choices because that is linked to the basic philosophy. Once you want to beat combo main deck in a shardless build, you have to run discard which is the most versatile disrupt available. Since you cascade you also want to lean more on htt which are also better as a whole against fair decks (whereas targeted discard is better against combo).
Problem is that you need more targeted discard post sb for combo because two copies aren’t enough against the fastest combo decks. In the end with the sb htt (which maybe should be a duress, but I didn't calculated your sideboard tables) you play 8 sorcery discards post sb which is a lot and is a problem on several points :
-You end up being pretty weak to people prepared for discard, which mostly means running leyline of sanctity. This is up to the point that you decided in the finals (maybe semi-finals not sure) of the invitational to side out all of your discard out except the two lilianas. For someone that wants to be prepared for combo this isn’t very convincing.
There are other considerations like misdirection and people keeping flust/divert but leyline is the main one by far and is played enough for it to matter alone.
-You will more often play games against combo opponents where you draw too many discards and not enough threats. Letting them rebuild at one point in which they’ll probably have a window to win.
-Sometimes the opponent will be on a plan that specifically dodges discard. This can be playing sneak attack and waiting for cantrip into a creature, or a storm player laying his mana artefacts until he can draw a tutor/business spell. If you don’t draw a tarmogoyf or pulse these situations are a problem when you are too focused on one kind of disruption.

Now that I gave all these elements I’ll focus on the second main reason that we should favor post sb games.
When Magic authors talk about sideboards in their articles they often point out how important post board games are since they are often 2/3 of the games and generally at least ½. They don’t remind it often outside of these dedicated articles, but this is something I always keep in mind.
Let’s look at some basic stats :

50% G1 win / 50% SB win -> 50% Match win
If you win game one 50% of the time and post sb games 50% of the time, you’ll win the match 50% of the time. That was just to be sure everyone could read the next lines :
60% G1 win / 60% SB win -> 64.8% Match win
70% G1 win / 70% SB win -> 78.4% Match win
50% G1 win / 60% SB win -> 60% Match win
60% G1 win / 50% SB win -> 55% Match win
30% G1 win / 70% SB win -> 61.6% Match win !

These stats not only show that a game % advantage will be even stronger as a match win % (compare 60%/60% with 70%/70%), they also show with ones in bold the weight of post sb games.
These two statistical “evidences” (I wanted to use the word evidence because in French that means “obvious thing”^^) show the prevalence of having a good post-sb match-up.

While I’m at it and because I was curious about this for myself I’ll try to do a “perilous” statistical comparison between our lists against a combo match-up.
Since I want to mainly focus on the overall impact of preparing main deck versus preparing in particular the sideboard, I’ll give you a favor and exclude combo decks that could be weak to whipflare (EtW storm variants, elves…) as well as combo decks that run leyline of sanctity (S&T decks mainly). The most played combo deck if I use these requirements is clearly UB ANT/PIF, let’s say the cantrip version that doesn’t run burning wish for EtW.

Because these storm builds don’t differ a lot and because I now have plenty of experience with the deck, I think I can give pretty accurate estimations on the match-up percentages. I also used to run a lot of discard at the beginning like you do.
Because I didn’t want to be too far from reality I also asked his estimations to my friend Tristan Polzl who played the deck a ton and is currently running 73 of my 75 after playing as much discard as you did for a while. I did the average of our two estimations. Difference was either 0 or 5% (Note that I was always kinder to your list and less to mine than Tristan).

To simplify let’s say we have the same clock even if I run revoker and clique for that reason too (and liliana is some kind of a clock). This way we can focus on the disruption to give estimations.
When I say « about » before the % it’s because I had to make an average between our estimations.


Versus UB ANT (pre sb)

Lejay’s list : 4 fow 4 Lili– 4 DRS – 4 wasteland -> about 27,5% to win
Gerry’s list : 3 fow 3 htt – 2 thoughtseize – 4 DRS – 2 wasteland -> about 42.5% to win

So I give you a 15 percentage points advantage.


Versus UB ANT (post sb)

Lejay’s list : 4 fow 4 lili – 2 thoughtseize – 2 duress – 2 V.clique – 2 P.revoker – 2 LlotV – 1 G.cage – 4 DRS – 4 Wasteland -> 65% to win
Gerry’s list : 3 fow – 2 lili – 4 htt – 4 thoughtseize – 3 Nihil S. 4 DRS 2 wasteland - >60% to win
To simplify again let’s consider equal the relevance of the cycling ability of Nihil Spellbomb and the relevance of a tempo free definitive turn 0 leyline + 2 life saved with duress. Differences end up being that where you have 4 HTT I have 2 revokers, 2 cliques, 4th fow, 3th and 4th waste and 3th/4th liliana
Having 5 more percentage points seems pretty fair to me and Tristan when comparing both.

Keep in mind these percentages are evaluated as if no player makes a mistake. If unfortunately you disagree with one or several estimation, please note it now and consider also if I was too kind on the removal of some factors from the equation.

If these data are accurate then overall % to win the match is :

Lejay’s list : (0.275*0.65) + (0.275*0.35*0.65) + (0.725*0.65*0.65) = 0.17875 + 0.0625625 + 0.3063125 = 0.547625 so 54,76% of winning the match against UB ANT

% to lose is 1- 0.547625 or (0.275*0.35*0.35) + (0.725*0.65*0.35) + (0.725*0.35) = 0.0336875 + 0.1649375 + 0.25375 = 0.452375 so 45.24% of losing the match.

Gerry’s list : (0.425*0.6) + (0.425*0.4*0.6) + (0.575*0.6*0.6) = 0.255 + 0.102 + 0.207 = 0.564 so 56,4% of winning the match against UB ANT

% to lose is 1-0.564 or (0.425*0.4*0.4) + (0.575*0.6*0.4) + (0.575*0.4) = 0.068 + 0.138 + 0.23 = 0.436 so 43.6% of losing the match.

So hoping you won’t disagree on the first evaluations overall, your philosophy of preparing the combo match-up for game one as opposed to my philosophy of bringing the more targeted weapons post sb, gives you 1.64 percentage points more of winning a match versus the UB ANT example. That is not significant at all, especially considering the variance of a tournament and that I saved you from some considerations (post-sb clock, EtW plan against other versions).


From what I know fair decks are still widely the most represented decks in legacy and in SCG opens in particular. So now compare what you gained to what you lose against fair decks in all your game ones by running discard instead of, basically, liliana. Not only the times the game is in topdeck mode and you draw or cascade discard. But also the times where you have it in hand and need a board presence/removal to keep up with the game pace. This isn’t about getting the rug match-up from 65 to 75 %. This is about improving almost ALL the fair match-ups.
Playing this deck a lot I think you know very well that the main way to lose with it against fair decks is to be behind on the board so that your very strong late game doesn’t ever goes into the equation.

The last element I’ll remind is that I don’t completely disregard combo game one. I’m not running URG cascade. It’s just that I limit the disruption to cards that are good at helping the deck reaching the late game and winning the late game. Which is, even if the deck can switch roles sometimes, by far the main game plan.

[Cire_dk]

Fantastic post. I love to read about the philosophy behind the deck and why people make certain choices.
Keep them coming :smile:

[Adryan]

Despite i've stopped playing Shardless BUG in favor of BUGstill because it's better, I'm still tinkering.

Has anyone tried a similar SB?:

4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Duress
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 general cards like Jitte/ Liliana/ Garruk etc.

I've done very well at tournaments with Shardless BUG. I was only disappointed when i was playing against too much Combodecks, so i think I'm going to try a SB where almost all Cards are dedicated to Combo. Obviously i side Shardless Agent out, which is really bad against combo sometimes. T3 tap out and cascade into..... Deathrite Shaman. Oh wow. I'm dead.

I hope you all do know how powerful Flusterstorm is against Combo ;)

[yaWgnorW]

Despite i've stopped playing Shardless BUG in favor of BUGstill because it's better, I'm still tinkering.

Has anyone tried a similar SB?:

4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Duress
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 general cards like Jitte/ Liliana/ Garruk etc.

I've done very well at tournaments with Shardless BUG. I was only disappointed when i was playing against too much Combodecks, so i think I'm going to try a SB where almost all Cards are dedicated to Combo. Obviously i side Shardless Agent out, which is really bad against combo sometimes. T3 tap out and cascade into..... Deathrite Shaman. Oh wow. I'm dead.

I hope you all do know how powerful Flusterstorm is against Combo ;)

I prefer Shardless BUG to BUG Still, why do you think BUG Still is better? I like the addition of Flusterstorm. Siding out Shardless Agent against combo isn't something I've tried to be honest. I usually drop Abrupt Decay and maybe Baleful Strix.

[catmint]

Baleful Strix goes out of course. Against many combo decks abrupt decay has its uses and should stay in as a 2-3of.
Show variants have defense grid.
Storm has confidant/carpet of flowers/xantid swarm or LEDs they want to protect from discard.
Reanimate has animate dead

Vs. combo tapping out for shardless agent is only viable if you set-it up to hit discard. But then again you could just cast this discard and kill without a 2/2.... Random cascades gets worse of the hate sided in like surgical, flusterstorm, golgari charm,... Best plan vs. combo is to
side out agent.

[Gruel]

Has anyone tried Academy Ruins in place of a Wasteland? I haven't... but just thinking about it. Mid-game becomes better with brainstorms becoming stronger with access to Shardless Agent in graveyard - brainstorm into an Ancestral Visions and a couple lands? - Agent on top seems pretty strong.... and baleful strix is sometimes a good target as well. Post Sideboard you also have access to P.Revoker and/or Nihil Spellbomb depending what your board looks like. Wondering about other opinions.

[Darkness]

Baleful Strix goes out of course. Against many combo decks abrupt decay has its uses and should stay in as a 2-3of.
Show variants have defense grid.
Storm has confidant/carpet of flowers/xantid swarm or LEDs they want to protect from discard.
Reanimate has animate dead

Vs. combo tapping out for shardless agent is only viable if you set-it up to hit discard. But then again you could just cast this discard and kill without a 2/2.... Random cascades gets worse of the hate sided in like surgical, flusterstorm, golgari charm,... Best plan vs. combo is to
side out agent.

The problem with siding out Shardless Agent is you're lowering you threat density. Baleful Strix is only useful against SnS combo, assuming thats not the deck you're facing and you take out Agent and Strix, you're left with only DRS and Goyfs (unless you have some SB hate to bring in i.e. V. Clique). Against faster combo decks, Storm Combo, Elves, SnS esc, I take out Decays, A Vision, and possibly Jaces. Visions, as powerful as it is, is too slow. I'd rather have a card that is good against said fast opponent, than drawing three and hoping to hit something I need. Against slower combo decks, High Tide, 12 Post, Enchantress, I try to leave it in due to the natural grind of the games and the additional cards I need. I've lived through the scenarios of having a DRS as my sole clock against a combo deck due to our naturally low threat count, and it keeps you on edge. The thought of boarding out Agent for combo seems very poor. I do respect the points brought up on why you don't want it due to random cascades, I just don't think the deck can clock a fast combo deck properly without them.

[Adryan]

The problem with siding out Shardless Agent is you're lowering you threat density. Baleful Strix is only useful against SnS combo, assuming thats not the deck you're facing and you take out Agent and Strix, you're left with only DRS and Goyfs (unless you have some SB hate to bring in i.e. V. Clique). Against faster combo decks, Storm Combo, Elves, SnS esc, I take out Decays, A Vision, and possibly Jaces. Visions, as powerful as it is, is too slow. I'd rather have a card that is good against said fast opponent, than drawing three and hoping to hit something I need. Against slower combo decks, High Tide, 12 Post, Enchantress, I try to leave it in due to the natural grind of the games and the additional cards I need. I've lived through the scenarios of having a DRS as my sole clock against a combo deck due to our naturally low threat count, and it keeps you on edge. The thought of boarding out Agent for combo seems very poor. I do respect the points brought up on why you don't want it due to random cascades, I just don't think the deck can clock a fast combo deck properly without them.

Let's not forget that T1 Ancestral Vision is a brutal clock when we have Flusterstorm/Discard etc. and with 2 Vendillion Clique in the SB our creature count is 12, which is high enough. I wouldn't consider Baleful Strix as a good or useful card against SnS because the majority of the time it does nothing. Blocking Griselbrand or Emrakul is not that nice, because they still draw a bunch of cards or destroy almost everything.

[yaWgnorW]

Has anyone tried Academy Ruins in place of a Wasteland? I haven't... but just thinking about it. Mid-game becomes better with brainstorms becoming stronger with access to Shardless Agent in graveyard - brainstorm into an Ancestral Visions and a couple lands? - Agent on top seems pretty strong.... and baleful strix is sometimes a good target as well. Post Sideboard you also have access to P.Revoker and/or Nihil Spellbomb depending what your board looks like. Wondering about other opinions.

This is actually an interesting idea. It would of course have to be a 1 of, so I'm assuming as you said, -1 Wasteland from the normal 2 would be the best. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? I think at the end of an opponents turn, you make yourself top deck an answer, cascading into something else, has great potential.


Let's not forget that T1 Ancestral Vision is a brutal clock when we have Flusterstorm/Discard etc. and with 2 Vendillion Clique in the SB our creature count is 12, which is high enough. I wouldn't consider Baleful Strix as a good or useful card against SnS because the majority of the time it does nothing. Blocking Griselbrand or Emrakul is not that nice, because they still draw a bunch of cards or destroy almost everything.

Of the last few posts regarding sideboarding vs combo I agree with this the most. Baleful Strix at best only stops an attack from Griselbrand. It does not stop Emrakul post annihilator, and I know if I had Gbrand on the field, I would just use his card advantage before attacking. Personally, I'd drop Jace for Sower of Temptation, Abrupt Decay for the additional hand disruption, and whatever else may be neccesary. Basically, I take the slowest thing, or the most pointless thing. I agree with keeping Avision, disagree with keep Strix, 1 card, 1 turn, will likely not save us.

[Ennel_Pat]

This is actually an interesting idea. It would of course have to be a 1 of, so I'm assuming as you said, -1 Wasteland from the normal 2 would be the best. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? I think at the end of an opponents turn, you make yourself top deck an answer, cascading into something else, has great potential

I started playing a 1-off Academy Ruins since I started playing 3x Baleful Strix. I also want to test this and compare it to volrath stronghold.

[Valarne]

I haven't been reading the thread I will admit, and actually find Shardless BUG to be a bit too clunky and unimpressive. Nevertheless, I wanted to try it out for myself - better than to rely on prejudice. With that info, you can consider whatever else I have to say in that regard - from an outsider to the deck.

My first thought was that planeswalkers are overkill, when Agent, Visions and Strix already deliver plenty of CA. Seeing that one of my prime critiques of the deck is clunkyness, I feel fine cutting Jace and Lili.

Yesterday I put together a list and ran it at the local legacy tournament - 35 people in average. The durdleness of the deck was quite awesome against other durdle.decks - I met two loam decks and a pox variant. That aside, my few thought that you might be interested in:

Academy Ruins was the mvp "luxury" slot in the deck, no question. If I run BUG again, I would try 2 (23 land). Lategame it's almost unbeatable against fair decks. I played 1 Explosives, 3 Strix and 4 Agents main. SB Nihil Spellbomb.
4 Force is a must - we draw so many cards, so who cares about carddisadvantage!
I did'nt miss planeswalkers against the fair decks, and were happy not to draw them against unfair. I sideboarded Lili, and when I had it against OmniTell it dawned on me, that it is pretty bad even in this matchup. Explanation: If we build our deck heavily skewed towards discard, then their potential Leyline wreck us. If we mix Pierces, FoW and discard, then Lili +1 is actively bad for us pretty often.

Cheers, Tue

[Adryan]

My first thought was that planeswalkers are overkill, when Agent, Visions and Strix already deliver plenty of CA. Seeing that one of my prime critiques of the deck is clunkyness, I feel fine cutting Jace and Lili.

Cheers, Tue

Sorry but that's just stupid. Jace is necessary against Esper, Miracles, the mirror etc. to provide a different angle of attack.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Sorry but that's just stupid. Jace is necessary against Esper, Miracles, the mirror etc. to provide a different angle of attack.

I concur with Adryan. Jace and Liliana go a long way against other grindy fair decks. For example, yesterday I was testing with one of my Magic Buddies, who plays UWr Miracles. He was able to land his Jace first, but then I drew into a Liliana and played it. (Note: We were playing with the new Legend Rules since we were testing for the next SCG Invitational.) In that game I'd say Liliana (more than Jace, which I got play a few turns after playing Liliana) really overperformed. My buddy ended up winning the game, but it wasn't until he was able to shut down my Liliana a second time (first time was with a D-Sphere but I Abrupt Decayed it) with Pithing Needle that he was able to close out the game. He also had to sacrifice a Clique basically to prevent my Liliana from ultimating.

The other thing that makes Jace particularly good in this deck is how he can help you set up Cascades with his brainstorm ability. In general, I often find myself sandbagging my Shardless Agent until I can setup a cascade. I only play into blind cascades in specific situations, like if I'm getting to behind on board presence.

With all that said though, the planeswalkers can be clunky in certain MU's so I do side them out on occasion. However, I feel Jace and (maybe) Liliana are to important for what the deck is trying to do to completely cut them from the MD.

[yaWgnorW]

I started playing a 1-off Academy Ruins since I started playing 3x Baleful Strix. I also want to test this and compare it to volrath stronghold.

For some reason I hadn't thought about Volrath Stronghold compared to Academy Ruins. I mean, ruins targets Strix and Agent, whereas Stronghold targets everything, for the same cost. The HUGE bonus target with Stronghold would be Goyf. What have you found in testing either so far?


I haven't been reading the thread I will admit, and actually find Shardless BUG to be a bit too clunky and unimpressive. Nevertheless, I wanted to try it out for myself - better than to rely on prejudice. With that info, you can consider whatever else I have to say in that regard - from an outsider to the deck.

My first thought was that planeswalkers are overkill, when Agent, Visions and Strix already deliver plenty of CA. Seeing that one of my prime critiques of the deck is clunkyness, I feel fine cutting Jace and Lili.

Yesterday I put together a list and ran it at the local legacy tournament - 35 people in average. The durdleness of the deck was quite awesome against other durdle.decks - I met two loam decks and a pox variant. That aside, my few thought that you might be interested in:

Academy Ruins was the mvp "luxury" slot in the deck, no question. If I run BUG again, I would try 2 (23 land). Lategame it's almost unbeatable against fair decks. I played 1 Explosives, 3 Strix and 4 Agents main. SB Nihil Spellbomb.
4 Force is a must - we draw so many cards, so who cares about carddisadvantage!
I did'nt miss planeswalkers against the fair decks, and were happy not to draw them against unfair. I sideboarded Lili, and when I had it against OmniTell it dawned on me, that it is pretty bad even in this matchup. Explanation: If we build our deck heavily skewed towards discard, then their potential Leyline wreck us. If we mix Pierces, FoW and discard, then Lili +1 is actively bad for us pretty often.

Cheers, Tue

I appreciate the more 3rd party look to be honest. I'm a bit surprised that you say Jace isn't needed...but I see where your coming from. I think 3x Jace is ideal, however I do NOT run Lilanna in my main deck (2 in the side). I don't like having to many 3cc+ cards other than Agent, and with 3x Jace and 3x FoW (1 in the side) I found that to be enough. I'm glad your positive on the Academy Ruins part. Would you suggest Volrath's Stronghold is superior to Academy Ruin's or not?

[mike1987]

What do you guys think of this list? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11115&iddeck=81208

Playing 21 lands with 2 basics seems a bit too little for me. But I kinda dig their mainboard with 2 Jace and 2 Lilianas

[yaWgnorW]

What do you guys think of this list? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11115&iddeck=81208

Playing 21 lands with 2 basics seems a bit too little for me. But I kinda dig their mainboard with 2 Jace and 2 Lilianas

Ya...this is my list for the most part. The difference, I run 3 Jaces and no Liliannas in the main, and it has 21 lands. I'm set on 22 lands.

[Valarne]

@Yawgnor: Yeah Volraths Stronghold resurrect Goyf, so unless the pilot is running Explosives, it should be strictly better considering the mainboard. It changes considering the sideboard however. Maybe recurring Nihil Spellbomb and Explosives is unnecessary, but it sure sounds nice. Besides that, Goyf is often plowed, while Agent and Strix often die in combat or to Bolts.

[yaWgnorW]

@Yawgnor: Yeah Volraths Stronghold resurrect Goyf, so unless the pilot is running Explosives, it should be strictly better considering the mainboard. It changes considering the sideboard however. Maybe recurring Nihil Spellbomb and Explosives is unnecessary, but it sure sounds nice. Besides that, Goyf is often plowed, while Agent and Strix often die in combat or to Bolts.

Yes well said. I mean, the 3 options with Academy Ruins is setup the blind cascade, put something their to cascade into, or just put some body there for whatever you need (strix). Stronghold does all that, but it is the sideboard that I think puts this card (Academy Ruins) over the top. While I don't think I like Engineered Explosives in our deck, its quite nice having access to it again and again.

[StefN]

To be honest. All this AcademyR. / Stronghold debate. I'm not sure if this deck really needs one of these cards. I mean I tried it for about 40 games (not that much I know).
The first point is that the mana base is allready so greedy that we only can switch Wastelands for one of these lands, and this is basically the point. How often is Ruins/Stronghold better then a Wasteland?? Of cource we can have absurd games in theory with Agent and Strix if we can recur them, but in my opinion most of the times a Wasteland is better. We have so much card advantage and such a high card quality in this deck, that I'm not concerned about the late game (where Ruins/Strongh. gets strong), but I'm more concerned about the first turns (Where these two lands basically does nothing).

[yaWgnorW]

To be honest. All this AcademyR. / Stronghold debate. I'm not sure if this deck really needs one of these cards. I mean I tried it for about 40 games (not that much I know).
The first point is that the mana base is allready so greedy that we only can switch Wastelands for one of these lands, and this is basically the point. How often is Ruins/Stronghold better then a Wasteland?? Of cource we can have absurd games in theory with Agent and Strix if we can recur them, but in my opinion most of the times a Wasteland is better. We have so much card advantage and such a high card quality in this deck, that I'm not concerned about the late game (where Ruins/Strongh. gets strong), but I'm more concerned about the first turns (Where these two lands basically does nothing).

Still 40 games is significant, not enough but significant. How often did you find that the Ruin/stronghold hurt you vs having Wasteland early? And how often did the land actually change the course of a game with grabbing that Shardless or Strix?

I've had about 20 games, so much less. Nothing really relevant to support anything, other than that of course there are times where I wish that Wasteland was Ruins or Ruins was Wasteland.

[Ennel_Pat]

The first point is that the mana base is allready so greedy that we only can switch Wastelands for one of these lands, and this is basically the point.

I think there is enough space for utility lands like volrath's stronghold or academy ruins. I think 23 lands is a more solid manabase when playing 3 or more Mind Sculptor's.

My manabase is:
7 Duals (4x Underground Sea, 2x Tropical Island, 1x Bayou)
9 Fetch (4x Misty Rainforest, 4x Verdant Catacombs, 1x Polluted Delta)
6 Utility (4x Wasteland, 1x Creeping Tar Pit, 1x Academy Ruins)
1 Basic (Swamp)

Maybe the swamp could be an Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth as well.

[somethingdotdotdot]

So I just split top 4 at the mtgdeals open earlier today with a bit of an unorthodox list. I started with lejay's list, but I felt that the strix's were just underwhelming and a bit durdily versus all of the midrange and combo decks floating around. This is the list that I ended up playing:

14 Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
2x Tombstalker

16 Instants/Sorceries:
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay

7 Planeswalkers:
3x Jace, the Mindsculptor
4x Liliana of the Veil

23 Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
1x Badlands
3x Wasteland
1x Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
3x Whipflare
2x Golgari Charm
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Vendiliion Clique
3x Thoughtseize
2x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce

As you can see, I ended up cutting the three strix's for 2 tombstalkers and the fourth underground sea. My reasoning behind this was that stalker basically did everything I wanted strix to do, but it also provided a very quick and hard to deal with clock. Versus delver decks, its better than strix (from goldfishing, didn't face any delver all day) since it provides a 5/5 flying wall that delver can't get through. A strix will just trade with 1 delver and the second one will continue to reek havoc on you; with stalker, they need to have the 2x delvers and a burn spell to do that. Vs the BUG version, they have no maindeck outs to stalker other than their own stalker (which is conveniently handled by the 4 lilianas).

In mid-range matchups such as jund or the mirror, the opponent is hard pressed to find an answer to stalker since most decks only run 2-3 lilis, 1pulse, and 2-3 jaces. Versus decks like deathblade or miracles, its a threat that demands that they have the removal, while they can just let strix swing in unharassed until they stabilize.

The other unusual part of my list are the 1 mana counters in the board. After trading the strix's for stalkers,I found that the deck's worst card versus non-creature based combo (snt, storm, etc) was shardless agent. Its a 3 mana 2/2 that often grabs a deathrite or brainstorm at sorcery speed. I found that the card advantage she provided in these matchups was not worth the variance. By siding out 4 shardlesses, along with 1-2 visions I found that i needed to cut discard for blue spells to keep my blue count high enough for fow. I cut revoker since I thought I would face more omni decks throughout the day (where revoker would've been completely useless). After playing the event, I think cutting the revokers was the correct move since its only really good in the sneak and show matchup, and only some of the time. I think the flusterstorms and spell pierces were better in those slots. Furthermore, the format is so heavily saturated with discard spells that decks like sneak and omni are running their own leylines to completely shut down opposing discard; this diversification in combo hate made my combo matchups a lot better.

I ended up playing against 2 sneak show decks (1 loss, 1 win), 1 elves (win) and tes (win) over the course of the day. Despite my many blunders (first time piloting shardless bug in a tournament) the deck was able to give me enough raw power to get through.

[Dragonslayer_90]

So I just split top 4 at the mtgdeals open earlier today with a bit of an unorthodox list. I started with lejay's list, but I felt that the strix's were just underwhelming and a bit durdily versus all of the midrange and combo decks floating around. This is the list that I ended up playing:

14 Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
2x Tombstalker

16 Instants/Sorceries:
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay

7 Planeswalkers:
3x Jace, the Mindsculptor
4x Liliana of the Veil

23 Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
1x Badlands
3x Wasteland
1x Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
3x Whipflare
2x Golgari Charm
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Vendiliion Clique
3x Thoughtseize
2x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce

As you can see, I ended up cutting the three strix's for 2 tombstalkers and the fourth underground sea. My reasoning behind this was that stalker basically did everything I wanted strix to do, but it also provided a very quick and hard to deal with clock. Versus delver decks, its better than strix (from goldfishing, didn't face any delver all day) since it provides a 5/5 flying wall that delver can't get through. A strix will just trade with 1 delver and the second one will continue to reek havoc on you; with stalker, they need to have the 2x delvers and a burn spell to do that. Vs the BUG version, they have no maindeck outs to stalker other than their own stalker (which is conveniently handled by the 4 lilianas).

In mid-range matchups such as jund or the mirror, the opponent is hard pressed to find an answer to stalker since most decks only run 2-3 lilis, 1pulse, and 2-3 jaces. Versus decks like deathblade or miracles, its a threat that demands that they have the removal, while they can just let strix swing in unharassed until they stabilize.

The other unusual part of my list are the 1 mana counters in the board. After trading the strix's for stalkers,I found that the deck's worst card versus non-creature based combo (snt, storm, etc) was shardless agent. Its a 3 mana 2/2 that often grabs a deathrite or brainstorm at sorcery speed. I found that the card advantage she provided in these matchups was not worth the variance. By siding out 4 shardlesses, along with 1-2 visions I found that i needed to cut discard for blue spells to keep my blue count high enough for fow. I cut revoker since I thought I would face more omni decks throughout the day (where revoker would've been completely useless). After playing the event, I think cutting the revokers was the correct move since its only really good in the sneak and show matchup, and only some of the time. I think the flusterstorms and spell pierces were better in those slots. Furthermore, the format is so heavily saturated with discard spells that decks like sneak and omni are running their own leylines to completely shut down opposing discard; this diversification in combo hate made my combo matchups a lot better.

I ended up playing against 2 sneak show decks (1 loss, 1 win), 1 elves (win) and tes (win) over the course of the day. Despite my many blunders (first time piloting shardless bug in a tournament) the deck was able to give me enough raw power to get through.

THANK YOU FOR POSTING. I was kind of at a loss with the deck this weekend. Enough at least to switch to BUG Delver last minute yesterday to try that instead at my LGS's Legacy Tournament. A problem I noticed with Shardless BUG is sometimes is you really have to lean on Tarmogoyf to close out the game, and I'm sure you know that doesn't always work.

With all that said, I was toying around with playing Tombstalker in my mind in Shardless BUG yesterday. I thought to myself if BUG Delver isn't worried about playing Tombstalker with Tarmogoyf and Deathrite, why aren't we playing some? I like how he adds another quick clock and can't be shrinked like Goyf.

I will definitely have to test this, and get my hands on another Tombstalker.

[_Fortune_]

So I just split top 4 at the mtgdeals open earlier today with a bit of an unorthodox list. I started with lejay's list, but I felt that the strix's were just underwhelming and a bit durdily versus all of the midrange and combo decks floating around.
As you can see, I ended up cutting the three strix's for 2 tombstalkers and the fourth underground sea. My reasoning behind this was that stalker basically did everything I wanted strix to do, but it also provided a very quick and hard to deal with clock. Versus delver decks, its better than strix (from goldfishing, didn't face any delver all day) since it provides a 5/5 flying wall that delver can't get through. A strix will just trade with 1 delver and the second one will continue to reek havoc on you; with stalker, they need to have the 2x delvers and a burn spell to do that. Vs the BUG version, they have no maindeck outs to stalker other than their own stalker (which is conveniently handled by the 4 lilianas).

In mid-range matchups such as jund or the mirror, the opponent is hard pressed to find an answer to stalker since most decks only run 2-3 lilis, 1pulse, and 2-3 jaces. Versus decks like deathblade or miracles, its a threat that demands that they have the removal, while they can just let strix swing in unharassed until they stabilize.

The other unusual part of my list are the 1 mana counters in the board. After trading the strix's for stalkers,I found that the deck's worst card versus non-creature based combo (snt, storm, etc) was shardless agent. Its a 3 mana 2/2 that often grabs a deathrite or brainstorm at sorcery speed. I found that the card advantage she provided in these matchups was not worth the variance. By siding out 4 shardlesses, along with 1-2 visions I found that i needed to cut discard for blue spells to keep my blue count high enough for fow. I cut revoker since I thought I would face more omni decks throughout the day (where revoker would've been completely useless). After playing the event, I think cutting the revokers was the correct move since its only really good in the sneak and show matchup, and only some of the time. I think the flusterstorms and spell pierces were better in those slots. Furthermore, the format is so heavily saturated with discard spells that decks like sneak and omni are running their own leylines to completely shut down opposing discard; this diversification in combo hate made my combo matchups a lot better.

I ended up playing against 2 sneak show decks (1 loss, 1 win), 1 elves (win) and tes (win) over the course of the day. Despite my many blunders (first time piloting shardless bug in a tournament) the deck was able to give me enough raw power to get through.

Congrats on the finish. I like the changes you made to the list, and am currently testing with your list with the following changes:

Maindeck:
-1 Tropical Island
+1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
-1 Spell Pierce
+1 Ancient Grudge

I've been loving grudge out of the board against Stone/Deathblade, and I wanted to cram one more shuffle effect into the deck (hitting mana-producing lands never seems to be a problem with 23 lands).

Thanks for posting and congrats again on the finish.

[lochlan]

Kevin Jennings 6th-place Shardless BUG list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57053) from today had a really, er, "interesting" addition to the sideboard: In the Eye of Chaos.

It doesn't look like this has been discussed in this thread or at MTGSalvation, so I think this is original tech. Does anybody have a clue what this is for? To fight storm very slowly? To get an edge against control match-ups? The only decks I'm aware of that ever ran this card were old Vintage Stax lists. It seems like a really weird choice to me in Legacy, but obviously the list was good enough to get a T8 finish in MA--maybe there's something to it?

[StefN]

In the Eye of Chaos seems nice in a storm heavy meta. A lot of ANT/TES or SpiralTide, Belcher maybe, but unfortunately bad against Show&Tell decks wich would be more important for me (My meta).

About the Tombstalker. To be honest, I absolutely don't like him in this build. Why? He is clunky and we don't need more clunky stuff in this deck (And to cut the strix?!?! Strix is a solid 2 mana drop, perfect blocker, pitch card, cantrip, does a better job then the Stalker in this deck.) The second more relevant point is that he removes the whole GY. Bad for the shaman and Goyf. I really don't understand why we need this fat faerie!?! I mean the stalker is nice and he is a fast clock, but why do we need him?? Wich matchup gets better because of him??

About the other utility stuff. Glissa and Ruins/Stronghold. In theory very nice, and a quite good synergy with the other cards. The problem is that they are too situational. Glissa is most of the time just a 3/3 with FirstS and DeathT and in a lot of games you better want your Wasteland then the Ruins/Str.

Don't misunderstand me. I allways like to add/test new cards, but for Shardl.BUG the card quality is so high atm that it's hard to cut or switch something.
I played at a small tournament at saturday and went 4-2 (Not impressive I know). Won against 2x Goblins, PunishLands, TinFins, Lost against RUG and Burn ;). Burn is maybe not the best matchup for us (chill did basically nothing), but overall I really like this deck (Main) and I thinck depending on the meta you are expecting, that we only should change the number (up/down) of lands, discard, planeswalker, strix. Everything else is fine. So all the new and fancy cards/techs that people are thincking of atm are not necessary or not strong enough in my opinion. The only card that I don't understand why people don't play it is SenseisDiviningTop. It's "cheap" and awesome with the agent, but maybe fighting for a slot with Jace not sure(played Top before I played Planeswalker). Maybe someone else has experience with the Top too.

[Lejay]

Tombstalker is a card that will do well when things go right. When you need to hit land drops or find solutions I'd much rather have the strix. Same when I want a blue card or get the advantage after an early attrition game. If a strix is stuck in your hand, tombstalker will be 99% of the time too. The reverse isn't true at all.

About In the eye of chaos I don't see the point especially when you are running fow. I wouldn't think too much about techs from people who want to cascade into snapcaster mages.

[Cire_dk]

Kevin Jennings 6th-place Shardless BUG list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57053) from today had a really, er, "interesting" addition to the sideboard: In the Eye of Chaos.

It doesn't look like this has been discussed in this thread or at MTGSalvation, so I think this is original tech. Does anybody have a clue what this is for? To fight storm very slowly? To get an edge against control match-ups? The only decks I'm aware of that ever ran this card were old Vintage Stax lists. It seems like a really weird choice to me in Legacy, but obviously the list was good enough to get a T8 finish in MA--maybe there's something to it?

I played a similar list this weekend in a small (34 people) tournament yesterday. I lost to Goblins and RUG.
General ideas: Boros charm was underwhelming. Snapcaster was great because it just gave a little bit of extra reach. I used it a few times to use my abrupt decay again. 2 Jace seemed fine. In several cases I would have liked Whipflare but still not sure about the mana base.
I tried Ratched bomb but never really got any use out of it.

I love the deck and will try another version next time.

[StefN]

Boros charm was underwhelming. Snapcaster was great because it just gave a little bit of extra reach. I used it a few times to use my abrupt decay again.
I love the deck and will try another version next time.
Boros? I guess you meant Golgari. I had the exact opposite experience this weekend. GolgariCharm was awesome. Not only Against LeylineofS. but this spell won both games Against Goblins.
The Point about Snappy........:wink:......ehh.....oh Never mind. I just read again what Lejay wrote last :tongue:

[yaWgnorW]

Boros? I guess you meant Golgari. I had the exact opposite experience this weekend. GolgariCharm was awesome. Not only Against LeylineofS. but this spell won both games Against Goblins.
The Point about Snappy........:wink:......ehh.....oh Never mind. I just read again what Lejay wrote last :tongue:

Do you have the link to Lejays list / explanation or whatever of his list? Cant find it

[Dragonslayer_90]

Do you have the link to Lejays list / explanation or whatever of his list? Cant find it

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-DTB-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control&p=731403#post731403

That was the last time I saw Lejay's list posted here. I suspect it hasn't changed much, if at all, from this configuration.

Question to other Shardless BUG players: How many basics can this deck afford in fighting against Mana denial decks like RUG, Maverick, D&T, Goblins, etc.? Reason I ask is because I often face at least one of those decks at the stores I go to for Legacy. So far I only have one swamp (trying out Lejay's list). Sometimes these decks just run me over though.

[Lejay]

I have been testing several things online lately and was satisfied by two of them.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5625472

However if I would play in a meta without many show and tells I would definitely play the list linked by Dragonslayer_90. Explanations are disseminated, but I wonder if you really searched for them since I summarized the general philosophy on page 14 and page 16, and the decklist given by Dragonslayer_90 was page 15.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Okay, so I think I should explain why I believe tombstalker is better than strix in this deck in more detail; in particular why he is neither clunky nor win-more. I will preface this by saying that I have only been playing and tinkering with this deck for about 1-2 months and there are many here who have had more experience. I should also say that my current meta lacks true aggro decks (decks that aim to kill you by turn 3-4 with redundant creatures and burn). Thats not to say there aren't aggro-control decks such as delver, but those are fundamentally different because they win with card quality rather than sheer redundancy.

So let me begin by examining how tombstalker fares versus strix against the midrange decks that I am typically facing.

Jund: This is basically the red version of this deck, trading visions for confidant and adding in an extra punishing fires engine. In my experience, the board usually comes down to a stall of my goyf vs his goyf with a couple of drs's on each side of the table. In these stalls, he usually has the advantage since he has a recurring burn engine that he will eventually assemble to both win goyf wars and kill off all of my shamans. From my experience, this win the top-deck situation is common versus not only Jund, but the mirror and virtually all other GBx decks. In this case top-decking a strix is fine--it'll draw you an extra card and give you an extra blocker (if he doesn't already have the punishing engine assembled), but it really doesn't impact the board. Stalker, on the other hand, comes down and applies immediate pressure. In doing so, I make both sylvan and confidant a lot worse for him because his life is no longer an expendable resource.

The other complaint is that I remove my own graveyard making goyf smaller and taking away shaman food. In these GBx matchups, I believe that this is a good thing. Due to the critical mass of removal from the opponent (swords +decay from GBW and bolt+decay from GBR), we tend to have less goyfs and shamans than our opponents. The result is that they need the fuel more than we do; by depriving them, we can starve their shamans and goyfs while the stalker flies over and pressures their life total.

Deathblade: This deck also relies heavily on confidant for card advantage, but it has far more ways to remove stalker than other decks so its a less attractive options. Instead of punishing fires, deathblade uses umezawa's jitte to grind out card advantage versus the smaller creatures in the format. There are definitely ways to deal with jitte in this deck (4x decays), but there are often more imminent threats than the jitte such as confidant that we want to decay first. Once a jitte has 1-2 counters on it (shitty situation, but not completely uncommon), our strixs become UB: draw a card. Stalker, on the other hand, is in fine shape and requires 5 counters to kill (since they dont actually play any fliers to equip to now).

As for removing my graveyard versus deathblade, again I think this is often an advantage. Deathblade runs snapcaster mages, so they want to hit your graveyard with drs saving juicy targets like brainstorm and stp to snap back later on in the game. Once you don't have targets, they will either need to remove their chaffe (fow, thoughtseize) or hold back their drs's drain. I will admit that delver does often make goyf 1 or 2 power smaller, but since the deck wants to make land drops (opposed to delver), you do not need to delve 6 (I often delve 3-4 if I have nothing else to do with the mana to keep an artifact in the graveyard).

As for why I don't think a stall is in our favor versus other midrange decks: In my understanding, the deck's strength lies in its burst card advantage--by this I mean that around turn 4-5 you tend to suddenly draw 3 extra cards out of nowhere. This is opposed to the incremental card advantage that the other midrange decks are currently running: resolving confidant and continually drawing 1 extra card a turn. This isn't to say that the deck cannot grind people out with lilianas, jaces, and shardless agents, but most opposing midrange decks run cards that are the exact same or functionally the same (bloodbraid vs agent; deathblade runs the jaces and snapcasters instead of lilianas). Due to this burst advantage, this deck has the most advantage right after a vision resolves and that advantage will often get worn down as the turns go by. Given enough time, both jund and deathblade will have better outs to a board stall than this deck does: fires recursion to kill walkers+small dudes from Jund and jitte+skull equipped to anything to outclass all of our creatures. The only advantage BUG has over these decks is that all of our threats cost less: goyf is a 1G and stalker is XBB; after the 5th or 6th land, jund and deathblade can utilize the mana better than we can.

The final point I want to make is that we should consider the threat density of the deck versus removal density of most mid-range decks. Most typical midrange decks run about 6-7 hard removal spells to deal with must kill-now creatures (4 stps + 2 snap from blade, 4 decay + 3 liliana from jund along with 7 burn spells, 4 decay+ 3-4 wishes for pulse + 3 fires from aggro loam, 4 stp + 3 decay from junk). Correspondingly, looking at how many "must-kill creatures" (creatures that will often take over the game if not dealt with) other decks play is around 10-12 (4 goyf/drs/confidant from jund, 4 goyf/confidant+3 kotr from junk, 3 kotr + 2-3 goyf + 4 confidant from aggro loam, 4 goyf/drs/delver + 2 stalker from bug delver, 4confidant/drs/mystic from blade). Our deck, with strix, runs less than any of these; our "must-kill" threat density with strix is only 8: 4drs/4goyf.

[Adryan]

Thats not to say there aren't aggro-control decks such as delver, but those are fundamentally different because they win with card quality rather than sheer redundancy.



I stopped reading at this point because i realized there can be no valuable information due to inexperience. You know Control doesn't mean Force of Will plus Brainstorm?

Aggro-control decks are capable of performing well at every single stage—you can play the early game, the mid-game, or the late game. RUG Delver can't play the midgame or lategame. Caw Blade in Standard could, so it was defined as Aggro Control.

[somethingdotdotdot]

That was poor word choice on my part. I meant to say aggro-control decks that are on the more aggro part of the spectrum, ie delver decks. These tend to follow an earlier game plan that is more in line with pure aggro decks, ie trying to kill you as soon as possible rather than gain enough incremental card and board advantage that your opponent cannot come back from. As such, they do not have very many ways to gain card quantity over the course of the game and rely on both tempo (amount of mana they spend vs what you spend) and by getting to the mid-late game, you are often able to out advantage them with cards such as jace, liliana, and visions.

As for brainstorm+force of will, this combination is present in pretty much any blue deck that has enough blue cards to support them. Having counters as a way to interact with the stack is a fundamental part of control. I would say that any deck having a way to interact with the opponent (discard, counters, silence) has an element of control. I know that strictly speaking, this would make Show and Tell and Storm decks a control/combo deck, but I believe that is what they are. They sacrifice sheer speed for more control of the game state (as opposed to decks like charbelcher and SI which are pure combo).

[Lejay]

Okay, so I think I should explain why I believe tombstalker is better than strix in this deck in more detail; in particular why he is neither clunky nor win-more. I will preface this by saying that I have only been playing and tinkering with this deck for about 1-2 months and there are many here who have had more experience. I should also say that my current meta lacks true aggro decks (decks that aim to kill you by turn 3-4 with redundant creatures and burn). Thats not to say there aren't aggro-control decks such as delver, but those are fundamentally different because they win with card quality rather than sheer redundancy.

So let me begin by examining how tombstalker fares versus strix against the midrange decks that I am typically facing.

Jund: This is basically the red version of this deck, trading visions for confidant and adding in an extra punishing fires engine. In my experience, the board usually comes down to a stall of my goyf vs his goyf with a couple of drs's on each side of the table. In these stalls, he usually has the advantage since he has a recurring burn engine that he will eventually assemble to both win goyf wars and kill off all of my shamans. From my experience, this win the top-deck situation is common versus not only Jund, but the mirror and virtually all other GBx decks. In this case top-decking a strix is fine--it'll draw you an extra card and give you an extra blocker (if he doesn't already have the punishing engine assembled), but it really doesn't impact the board. Stalker, on the other hand, comes down and applies immediate pressure. In doing so, I make both sylvan and confidant a lot worse for him because his life is no longer an expendable resource.

The other complaint is that I remove my own graveyard making goyf smaller and taking away shaman food. In these GBx matchups, I believe that this is a good thing. Due to the critical mass of removal from the opponent (swords +decay from GBW and bolt+decay from GBR), we tend to have less goyfs and shamans than our opponents. The result is that they need the fuel more than we do; by depriving them, we can starve their shamans and goyfs while the stalker flies over and pressures their life total.

Deathblade: This deck also relies heavily on confidant for card advantage, but it has far more ways to remove stalker than other decks so its a less attractive options. Instead of punishing fires, deathblade uses umezawa's jitte to grind out card advantage versus the smaller creatures in the format. There are definitely ways to deal with jitte in this deck (4x decays), but there are often more imminent threats than the jitte such as confidant that we want to decay first. Once a jitte has 1-2 counters on it (shitty situation, but not completely uncommon), our strixs become UB: draw a card. Stalker, on the other hand, is in fine shape and requires 5 counters to kill (since they dont actually play any fliers to equip to now).

As for removing my graveyard versus deathblade, again I think this is often an advantage. Deathblade runs snapcaster mages, so they want to hit your graveyard with drs saving juicy targets like brainstorm and stp to snap back later on in the game. Once you don't have targets, they will either need to remove their chaffe (fow, thoughtseize) or hold back their drs's drain. I will admit that delver does often make goyf 1 or 2 power smaller, but since the deck wants to make land drops (opposed to delver), you do not need to delve 6 (I often delve 3-4 if I have nothing else to do with the mana to keep an artifact in the graveyard).

As for why I don't think a stall is in our favor versus other midrange decks: In my understanding, the deck's strength lies in its burst card advantage--by this I mean that around turn 4-5 you tend to suddenly draw 3 extra cards out of nowhere. This is opposed to the incremental card advantage that the other midrange decks are currently running: resolving confidant and continually drawing 1 extra card a turn. This isn't to say that the deck cannot grind people out with lilianas, jaces, and shardless agents, but most opposing midrange decks run cards that are the exact same or functionally the same (bloodbraid vs agent; deathblade runs the jaces and snapcasters instead of lilianas). Due to this burst advantage, this deck has the most advantage right after a vision resolves and that advantage will often get worn down as the turns go by. Given enough time, both jund and deathblade will have better outs to a board stall than this deck does: fires recursion to kill walkers+small dudes from Jund and jitte+skull equipped to anything to outclass all of our creatures. The only advantage BUG has over these decks is that all of our threats cost less: goyf is a 1G and stalker is XBB; after the 5th or 6th land, jund and deathblade can utilize the mana better than we can.

The final point I want to make is that we should consider the threat density of the deck versus removal density of most mid-range decks. Most typical midrange decks run about 6-7 hard removal spells to deal with must kill-now creatures (4 stps + 2 snap from blade, 4 decay + 3 liliana from jund along with 7 burn spells, 4 decay+ 3-4 wishes for pulse + 3 fires from aggro loam, 4 stp + 3 decay from junk). Correspondingly, looking at how many "must-kill creatures" (creatures that will often take over the game if not dealt with) other decks play is around 10-12 (4 goyf/drs/confidant from jund, 4 goyf/confidant+3 kotr from junk, 3 kotr + 2-3 goyf + 4 confidant from aggro loam, 4 goyf/drs/delver + 2 stalker from bug delver, 4confidant/drs/mystic from blade). Our deck, with strix, runs less than any of these; our "must-kill" threat density with strix is only 8: 4drs/4goyf.

I don't mind longer posts, but here it was quite unnecessary. Instead of taking examples (2 decks, even if they are popular, isn't much in legacy) you should reason more in terms of game plans and roles. You'll also notice this way of thinking will stay coherent with your post about Jund and blade.
I didn't say tombstalker was bad. I only talked about how often stalker will be weaker than strix in a general way (ability to cast it, topdeck wars, is blue and artifact) in this deck. You answered with examples of it being good. That isn't a wrong example, but I would criticize relying on specific match-ups. I can sell just about any card with examples. The more specific an example can be, the more I can sell you a weak card.

Let's reason in terms of roles. Fundamentally strix is a control card. It's supposed to make 2 for 1s. Tombstalker can have a control role as well, although weaker. A 5/5 flying is definitely good at attacking and it isn't a sure blocker for goyfs or equipped creature (by the way the jitte with counters you talk about will probably just boost the equipped creature and win the race in a way or another).

So now is BUG shardless more of a control deck or an aggro deck ? I definitely experimented both roles since I played 4 goyfs from the beginning so that an aggro/tempo plan is available (4DRS, 4 Goyfs, 4 wasteland, 4 fow). But in the huge majority of the matches I play I am the control deck. That is because I have amazing card advantage tools.

Like I said a few pages back, when talking about fair match-ups the deck will have a very strong late game. That's why you want to be a control deck. And that's why your flex slots' goal should be to survive the early game. Tombstalker doesn't help a lot in doing that. If everything is perfect, it's a 4th turn creature in this deck. A 3rd turn creature in a ponder/daze deck. Once cast it trades with less removal but still trades 1 for 1. If things go wrong it sits in hand. The fact you are so often in control is the reason why I compared strix and stalker in early games situations, and in situations where you have to reverse the flow of the game.
You are using the punishing jund example to demonstrate stalker's value. The precise reason of why it's good in this match-up is because this is a game where you will most of the time be the aggro deck. Going into the late game isn't that good against it when your opponent has recurring removals for most of your creatures and card advantage with confidant, BBelf and liliana. The same is true for the deathblade deck. This one has a very good late game against almost all decks and a ton of control elements.
If you think about all decks where you need to be the aggressor (mainly against control decks and "slow" combo decks) you'll notice that strix is always inferior to the stalker. However those aren't the majority of the format. So I play the strix, and my sideboard is designed to replace those in these match-ups (except Jund, but that's because thanks to the 2 leylines, 4 wasteland, 4 liliana, and 3 whipflare I can be a fine control deck and fow and 4 mana drops are too weak to stay post board).
If you play stalker, even if it isn't stuck in our hand I'm afraid it won't help a lot our unreliable aggressive game plan, and will be pretty poor at reaching the late game or winning the attrition wars.

About your final point, only focusing on numbers for what you qualify of "must kill creatures" is a mistake. One of the reasons I play this deck is that it has the biggest goyfs in the format AND it's the deck with the most goyfs in it. From what I know nobody currently uses goyf + GSZ (NO RUG isn't played) so with shardless agent and all your draw spells you will find several goyfs much more than your opponents in a goyf mirror. You dig a lot and you can consider shardless a 3 mana goyf (+ a 2/2) a decent percentage of the time.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Perhaps its my metagame that is filled with more of the grindy matchups, but I do expect about 50% of my matchups to be against decks that can grind the late game as well, if not better than this deck. Punishing Jund, miracles, deathblade, aggro loam and the mirror are very common for me to face. The two examples I posed are extremely common for me (ground stalls) and extra goyfs to clog up the board does occasionally help, but not always.

I will admit that strix is better than stalker on turn 2 versus delver decks, but I don't believe stalker is as bad as you make him out to be in this matchup. He typically comes down turn 3-4, which is a slower, but he is always a wall that is extremely difficult to deal with. As a 5/5 flying, RUG needs to trade delver+burn or 2 burn spells to kill him; BUG needs to trade a stalker for him. Even with all of Rug's burn, the first 1-2 tend to hit your drs's and they will be hard pressed to have 2 in hand when the stalker resolves. All of this being said, I do believe that strix is better against delver, but stalker is about as good. In testing, I found that the stalker hasn't hurt my delver matchup too much while improving all of the midrange matchups greatly.

As for having more and bigger goyfs, the size doesn't matter if goyf is on both sides and you have a stall. Having more doesn't help if they can block+burn yours and come out on top.

[Dragonslayer_90]

@somethingdotdotdot: Is there a chance that Mtgdeals is going to post your list and the rest of the top 8 or 16 list of the legacy portion? I'm interested to see the kind of decks that were in the field you were battling with your list, partly to see if adding Tombstalker may have helped more than it hurt you.

[Koby]

@somethingdotdotdot: Is there a chance that Mtgdeals is going to post your list and the rest of the top 8 or 16 list of the legacy portion? I'm interested to see the kind of decks that were in the field you were battling with your list, partly to see if adding Tombstalker may have helped more than it hurt you.

Lots of grindy decks, a good mix of Vials, some fast combo, some S&T decks. Not very many red decks outside of a pair of goblins and A few Jund decks. I think there were less RUG decks in the top tables than BUG.

[Lejay]

Perhaps its my metagame that is filled with more of the grindy matchups, but I do expect about 50% of my matchups to be against decks that can grind the late game as well, if not better than this deck.

In that case you are right to prefer Tombstalker, 50% is a lot.

Once again I didn't say stalker was bad, but agaisnt delver + mana denial strategy I'd much rather have strix even if stalker does some job. Delver also isn't the only deck where I prefer baleful.

[Adryan]

Perhaps its my metagame that is filled with more of the grindy matchups, but I do expect about 50% of my matchups to be against decks that can grind the late game as well, if not better than this deck. Punishing Jund, miracles, deathblade, aggro loam and the mirror are very common for me to face. all.

Jace is still the best card in a grindy matchup, so i prefer playing cards that support Jace. From my experience Tombstalker is very underwhelming against every white deck

[Kyle]

In case anyone is interested, I just updated the primer with a new list and some additional notes (taking into account DrShaman and Abrupt Decay). Anyone want to add anything?

[Dragonslayer_90]

In case anyone is interested, I just updated the primer with a new list and some additional notes (taking into account DrShaman and Abrupt Decay). Anyone want to add anything?

I feel like it's almost criminal not to give Liliana of the Veil a mention in the sb options section. There should be something that says what she does for the deck (More Removal and discard in one essentially), how most lists run at least 2 in the sb, and how some lists even md her because she's that good.

[dunk]

In case anyone is interested, I just updated the primer with a new list and some additional notes (taking into account DrShaman and Abrupt Decay). Anyone want to add anything?

You should add Lejay's list - seems to be the best build currently.

[SansSerif]

I went 3-2 in a local tournament playing a list similar to Gerry T, losing to Jund and a mirror running Lejay's list. Overall I was happy with the deck's preformance, though I would have liked 3-4 Lilianas MD.

I wanted to ask what we need to do to beat Jund - What are our best cards and how do we win this matchup?
Looking back I should have muligined into safer hands, and I wished I was running more wastelands.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I went 3-2 in a local tournament playing a list similar to Gerry T, losing to Jund and a mirror running Lejay's list. Overall I was happy with the deck's preformance, though I would have liked 3-4 Lilianas MD.

I wanted to ask what we need to do to beat Jund - What are our best cards and how do we win this matchup?
Looking back I should have muligined into safer hands, and I wished I was running more wastelands.

I haven't tested the Jund MU from the Shardless side yet, but I did play a lot of Jund before moving on to this deck. The Jund MU is tough since they're threat density is higher and their cards are, for most part, more efficient than yours. However, it's not impossible. From my experience playing Jund, if my opponent is not playing combo and is able to answer all my threats, disable my PF engine, and get me top-decking, I'm in a pretty bad spot since Jund has fewer ways to dig (usually only 1 or 2 Sylvan Libraries or Tops) for more action than blue decks in general. Since you cannot out aggro them you have to play the control role and just grind them out. Your best tools against them are discard, removal, planeswalkers, and some sort of GY hate for PF and/or wasteland for grove. Also, always side out FOWs if you have any MD since the MU is always a grindy one.

[SansSerif]

I haven't tested the Jund MU from the Shardless side yet, but I did play a lot of Jund before moving on to this deck. The Jund MU is tough since they're threat density is higher and their cards are, for most part, more efficient than yours. However, it's not impossible. From my experience playing Jund, if my opponent is not playing combo and is able to answer all my threats, disable my PF engine, and get me top-decking, I'm in a pretty bad spot since Jund has fewer ways to dig (usually only 1 or 2 Sylvan Libraries or Tops) for more action than blue decks in general. Since you cannot out aggro them you have to play the control role and just grind them out. Your best tools against them are discard, removal, planeswalkers, and some sort of GY hate for PF and/or wasteland for grove. Also, always side out FOWs if you have any MD since the MU is always a grindy one.

This is generally what I was thinking. I lost game 1 because of removal taking out my shaman and 2 wastelands taking out my lands. I lost game 2 because he was able to play a turn two Dark Confidant and I didn't find any removal for several turns.

If I were playing Lejay's list I'm guessing I would side out Strix and FOW for 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 2 Vendillion Clique, 2 Leyline, and 2 Duress. But is Thoughtseize a good card against Jund? The lifeloss isn't irrelavent, but it can grab those pesky Confidants.

If I were running Hymn would that be better than Duress/Thoughtseize in the Jund matchup?

[Dragonslayer_90]

This is generally what I was thinking. I lost game 1 because of removal taking out my shaman and 2 wastelands taking out my lands. I lost game 2 because he was able to play a turn two Dark Confidant and I didn't find any removal for several turns.

If I were playing Lejay's list I'm guessing I would side out Strix and FOW for 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 2 Vendillion Clique, 2 Leyline, and 2 Duress. But is Thoughtseize a good card against Jund? The lifeloss isn't irrelavent, but it can grab those pesky Confidants.

If I were running Hymn would that be better than Duress/Thoughtseize in the Jund matchup?

Board plan you gave seems fine, though I'm not sure if you want to side out Strix. It's like another piece of removal if they don't kill it, in which case you still get a 3-for-1 since your strix drew a card and ate 1 of your opponent's cards. Not sure if Clique is much better since Jund has red cards. I generally don't side in Clique against Fair decks with red. You could test it out and see though.

If you have access to Hymn, it's always usually better than targeted discard against fair decks. You want the latter for combo MU's really, though it's not terrible to have them on the play against fair decks. You have to be careful about playing too much discard though because you don't want to be topdecking discard spells against other fair decks.

[SansSerif]

Board plan you gave seems fine, though I'm not sure if you want to side out Strix. It's like another piece of removal if they don't kill it, in which case you still get a 3-for-1 since your strix drew a card and ate 1 of your opponent's cards.

You are probably right with this point. I didn't have much problem with the goyf' or any other attacking creature in my match against jund, but that probably isn't the normal case. I was siding out strix to make room for Vendillion Clique.


Not sure if Clique is much better since Jund has red cards. I generally don't side in Clique against Fair decks with red. You could test it out and see though.

I didn't have clique in my deck for the match-up, but I was thinking it would help get ride of Punishing Fire, and as a way to fly over their board and hit Liliana. This might not be the correct strategy though.

[Lejay]

-3 jace/thief -4 fow + 3 whipflare + 2 llotv + 1 seize + 1 pulse/2nd seize

[Koby]

-3 jace/thief -4 fow + 3 whipflare + 2 llotv + 1 seize + 1 pulse/2nd seize

So basically remove all the reactive cards for removal? Become a quasi-Jund deck?

[Lejay]

So basically remove all the reactive cards for removal? Become a quasi-Jund deck?
Close to a jund deck yes. But to summarize he has blasts where you have whipflare, and where he has discard you have vision and strix. Keep the wastelands for grove, leyline dodges decay, and if despite that he still has the pfire combo online a goyf plan can be enough.

[SansSerif]

@Lejay

Why do you choose Leyline off the Void for your sideboard? Have you found the running 2 is enough to find them when you need to? Do you tend to mull. till you find one in your opening hand, or plan to hard cast them?

[Lejay]

Why ?

I play leyline of the void because the kind of grave decks I want some improvements against are either violent ones (dredge, a bit reanimator, tin fins, and oops all spells) or punishing fire decks. I am also very happy for the occasionnal slow loam deck. I don't really want improvement against TT, with my list it's one of my best match-ups with just the maindeck.
Leyline being easy to hardcast with DRS is also nice.
The grafdigger's cage is an additional slot I added when I started to cut some discards. I didn't feel like 3 leylines would come in against punishing fire and I was happy to have one more slot against elfball/maverick.

2 enough ?
I don't run 4 leylines because I don't need to find one desperately. It's a complement to the 4 DRS or 4 fows according to the match-ups (oops, tin fins, reanimator etc...). Loam decks aren't played currently and I wouldn't side in more than 2 against punishing fire.
Mull or hardcast ?
Depends on the match-up and the starting hands obviously.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Why ?

2 enough ?
I don't run 4 leylines because I don't need to find one desperately. It's a complement to the 4 DRS or 4 fows according to the match-ups (oops, tin fins, reanimator etc...). Loam decks aren't played currently and I wouldn't side in more than 2 against punishing fire.
Mull or hardcast ?
Depends on the match-up and the starting hands obviously.

Would you aggressively mull to leyline and/or grafdigger's cage post-board against dredge? I ask because there is a dredge player at an LGS I go to, which is going to start Legacy tournaments soon. I have play-tested against him before and it was really rough pre-board. Post-board it was still kind of bad, but I'm thinking I didn't mulligan aggressively enough to get Turn 0 Leyline or Turn 1 grafdigger's cage.

Question for other Shardless BUG players: How necessary are MD Force of Wills? I'm sure it's meta dependent, but I guess I'm wondering if for a big tournament like an SCG Open it's better to have them MD or leave them in the SB for Combo MU's so as to optimize the MD for Fair MU's. I was prompted to ask this question because I saw a Shardless BUG list without MD Force of Wills here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26365-EUDEMONIA-TOP-8-DECKLISTS-Berkeley-California-July-7th

[SansSerif]

Question for other Shardless BUG players: How necessary are MD Force of Wills? I'm sure it's meta dependent, but I guess I'm wondering if for a big tournament like an SCG Open it's better to have them MD or leave them in the SB for Combo MU's so as to optimize the MD for Fair MU's. I was prompted to ask this question because I saw a Shardless BUG list without MD Force of Wills here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26365-EUDEMONIA-TOP-8-DECKLISTS-Berkeley-California-July-7th

I played in this tournament - my two loses were the Jund deck that placed 2nd and the Shardless BUG deck that placed 3rd. I had the chance to talk with the Jasper, the BUG player, about his deck after the match and he said he left FOW out of the main deck as a meta call. Apparently Bay Area Legacy players tend to avoid combo. You will also notice that he is running a Jitte MD, clearly he was building to win againt fair decks.

[Koby]

I played in this tournament - my two loses were the Jund deck that placed 2nd and the Shardless BUG deck that placed 3rd. I had the chance to talk with the Jasper, the BUG player, about his deck after the match and he said he left FOW out of the main deck as a meta call. Apparently Bay Area Legacy players tend to avoid combo. You will also notice that he is running a Jitte MD, clearly he was building to win againt fair decks.

Hot diggity I need to drive up and upset the balance with some degenerate combo deck. Shots have been fired!

Ontopic, I playtested BUG vs my friend's Maverick deck yesterday for about 15-20 games. I must be a bad pilot because I keep some loose hands and proceed to trounced by Wasteland. Mother of Runes is also a big issue for this deck. I can't imagine it's a wholly positive matchup for BUG without some factor of luck. Disfigure and Golgari Charm out of the SB definitely help, but there needs to be something more powerful to do. I enjoy the deck when it gets to cascade into creatures. Cascading into Brainstorm is pretty awful tho...

[Dragonslayer_90]

Hot diggity I need to drive up and upset the balance with some degenerate combo deck. Shots have been fired!

Ontopic, I playtested BUG vs my friend's Maverick deck yesterday for about 15-20 games. I must be a bad pilot because I keep some loose hands and proceed to trounced by Wasteland. Mother of Runes is also a big issue for this deck. I can't imagine it's a wholly positive matchup for BUG without some factor of luck. Disfigure and Golgari Charm out of the SB definitely help, but there needs to be something more powerful to do. I enjoy the deck when it gets to cascade into creatures. Cascading into Brainstorm is pretty awful tho...

I've found that any deck that counts as 'aggro' in legacy (more like midrange decks that accel at beating fair blue decks) usually gives Shardless BUG huge problems since their threat density is just too high for just for the typical MD removal suite we have at our disposal. Lejay's whipflare tech is probably the best choice in terms of sweepers since it has the added benefit of not killing our Strixes and Agents. The only issue is if you're meta is has a lot of mana denial decks (Maverick, Goblins, D&T, etc.), it can be hard to be able to hold on to whipflare and wait for the best time to hard cast it since you would need a red source to do so, assuming your not able to set up a cascade. Other cards to consider that come to mind are "Golgari Charm" as Koby mentioned and "Infest", which I currently testing in my SB as a 2 of for the anti-blue aggro decks alongside 2 Golgari Charm. I'm trying out Infest because it's an on-color sweeper that's relatively cheap. Some Team America SB's have been running it so I thought I'd give it a try.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

I'm trying out Infest because it's an on-color sweeper that's relatively cheap. Some Team America SB's have been running it so I thought I'd give it a try.

Massacre might be a good metagame choice sometimes. We had 2 DNT, 2 Mav, 1 UWR Geist and 2 Rw Goblins yesterday with 12 people playing and i must say that i did not regret playing it as a 2 of in the board ;)

Mother of runes is sometimes problematic, but mostly while being on the draw against Maverick, not so much against DNT i feel.

[yaWgnorW]

Massacre might be a good metagame choice sometimes. We had 2 DNT, 2 Mav, 1 UWR Geist and 2 Rw Goblins yesterday with 12 people playing and i must say that i did not regret playing it as a 2 of in the board ;)

Mother of runes is sometimes problematic, but mostly while being on the draw against Maverick, not so much against DNT i feel.

I too have been utilizing Massacre, its a great meta call. I say that because if your not up against someone not running a white source its nearly a dead card.

[jarvisyu]

I too have been utilizing Massacre, its a great meta call. I say that because if your not up against someone not running a white source its nearly a dead card.

Massacre is a mostly worse Engineered Plague, IMHO.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Massacre is a mostly worse Engineered Plague, IMHO.

Well for small local metagames it can be better by a whole lot, it is strictly worse against Goblins and Elves, that is true.

If you local meta is 50% white based creature decks Massacre is probably better than plague.

[yaWgnorW]

Well for small local metagames it can be better by a whole lot, it is strictly worse against Goblins and Elves, that is true.

If you local meta is 50% white based creature decks Massacre is probably better than plague.

Agreed. Key point here being a meta call.

[jarvisyu]

Agreed. Key point here being a meta call.

Gaddock Teeg shuts down Massacre which is a big deal, IMO.

the fact that massacre also kills your own deathrites, etc, is also a big deal

[yaWgnorW]

Gaddock Teeg shuts down Massacre which is a big deal, IMO.

the fact that massacre also kills your own deathrites, etc, is also a big deal

Not arguing that. But the big deal isn't losing your own creatures, its stopping the decks that have some annoying things to get around, Geist, Mother, etc.

[Endir]

How about Virtue's Ruin if strictly against white? Gaddock doesn't stop it, also dealable with Thalia in. Doesn't kill our creatures and kills the Knights. I mean strictly against maverick or d&t.

[yaWgnorW]

How about Virtue's Ruin if strictly against white? Gaddock doesn't stop it, also dealable with Thalia in. Doesn't kill our creatures and kills the Knights. I mean strictly against maverick or d&t.

Massacre was a huge stretch. It can be used in any 3 color deck that runs white, whereas this will only stop white. Even if 50% of a meta runs white, it isn't worth it the other half. I used Massacre as a temporary solution for Geist if he resolves. I think this card does okay probably due to its lack of use and expectancy. Does it have a lot of interesting uses? Yes. Would I run it outside of a local meta? No.

[emidln]

Massacre was a huge stretch. It can be used in any 3 color deck that runs white, whereas this will only stop white. Even if 50% of a meta runs white, it isn't worth it the other half. I used Massacre as a temporary solution for Geist if he resolves. I think this card does okay probably due to its lack of use and expectancy. Does it have a lot of interesting uses? Yes. Would I run it outside of a local meta? No.

Looks like someone has discovered sideboard cards. Flusterstorm isn't very useful against Elves or Goblins, but you still might play it in your sideboard to deal with Show and Tell or Storm. Leyline of the Void is pretty much dead against Jund, which is why you side it in against Reanimator instead of Jund.

[yaWgnorW]

Looks like someone has discovered sideboard cards. Flusterstorm isn't very useful against Elves or Goblins, but you still might play it in your sideboard to deal with Show and Tell or Storm. Leyline of the Void is pretty much dead against Jund, which is why you side it in against Reanimator instead of Jund.

Looks like someone doesn't realize a sideboard can be utilized universally. Meaning, while you will have some cards dedicated to some match ups (it cant be helped) but there are plenty of cards that can be used in a variety of match ups, almost doubling up on their effectiveness and saving spots in the side for those more specific targets. This is what I was referring too. I don't like having sideboards that are 3 cards for Show and Tell, 3 cards for Storm, 3 cards for Deathblade, etc. All I was saying above is that one card (Virtue's Ruin) may have been a weaker choice compared to other more flexible choices. Also, random thought, I like sideboarding in Leyline of the Void vs. Punishing Jund. I don't see how it hurts...when they have Drite, Goyf, Punishing Fire, etc. It's done work for me.

[Kyle]

@Dragonslayer_90 and @dunkle_stille: thanks for the requests: I've updated the primer (with more emphasis on Liliana).

[catmint]

Looks like someone has discovered sideboard cards. Flusterstorm isn't very useful against Elves or Goblins, but you still might play it in your sideboard to deal with Show and Tell or Storm. Leyline of the Void is pretty much dead against Jund, which is why you side it in against Reanimator instead of Jund.

If you board against elves like against other combo decks removing shardles, Flusterstorm is very good against them. It reads "hit all business": GSZ, NO, Glimpse

[emidln]

If you board against elves like against other combo decks removing shardles, Flusterstorm is very good against them. It reads "hit all business": GSZ, NO, Glimpse

Them: play a bunch of elves the first 2-3 turns.
You: durdle because you boarded into an anti-combo plan.
Them: cast Natural Order as spell #1.
You: Brainstorm (I'm being generous here), Flusterstorm to make them pay three.
Them: "still got all this mana" (when they're done tapping elves)

[Koby]

Them: play a bunch of elves the first 2-3 turns.
You: durdle because you boarded into an anti-combo plan.
Them: cast Natural Order as spell #1.
You: Brainstorm (I'm being generous here), Flusterstorm to make them pay three.
Them: "still got all this mana" (when they're done tapping elves)

You: *sigh* resolves
Them: Attack with Hoof for 9?
You: "Man I wish I could play with Perish"

gg?

[rnightingale]

I think Golgari Charm solves the problem. :) plus it protects your creature from Abrupt and breaks Leyline of Sanctity.

[jtos84]

I was trying to think of new strategies for legacy, and I remembered some card combinations that we used to play. This deck Has performed relatively strong in the six matches I have played with it. It generates some serious card advantage. Let me know what you think of it.

// Lands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Dark Confidant
3 Baleful Strix
3 Coiling Oracle
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Engineered Plague

[yaWgnorW]

I was trying to think of new strategies for legacy, and I remembered some card combinations that we used to play. This deck Has performed relatively strong in the six matches I have played with it. It generates some serious card advantage. Let me know what you think of it.

// Lands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Dark Confidant
3 Baleful Strix
3 Coiling Oracle
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Engineered Plague

I like the creativity, so not trying to take away from that...but of course the first thing I see is 20 land. I barely like running anything less than 22 in a typical Shardless BUG list. How does 20 land work with three 4cc cards at double U (Jace) and multiple 3cc cards, in additional to an overall 4 double Black? Your also running Creeping Tar Pit in that 20 land count, seems greedy/sketchy. Assuming the remaining numbers are correct, I'd probably drop 1x Jace, and the 2x Hymn to Tourach in favor of 2 lands and a free spot.
It took a second to realize what was missing that is typically critical, that was Deathrite Shaman. I'd probably use that free spot and switch out Dark Confidant or Coiling Oracle. I know I know, it takes away from your deck completely...but we can't disregard Deathrite in this deck/meta. This card enables + disables to many things. With no way to gain life, Bob seems odd. The deck has enough card advantage if you ask me. Plus, no one likes losing 1/4 your starting life to a Jace that you can't drop yet.

[jtos84]

Right now I am testing it with 2 jaces, 3 lilianas, a jitte, 3 deathrite shamans, and no confidants. It performed fairly well the other way, but like you say, it was getting tight on mana to cast a jace when I needed to. Originally I had a gaes cradle also.

[yaWgnorW]

Right now I am testing it with 2 jaces, 3 lilianas, a jitte, 3 deathrite shamans, and no confidants. It performed fairly well the other way, but like you say, it was getting tight on mana to cast a jace when I needed to. Originally I had a gaes cradle also.

Gaea's Cradle likely would not serve you like you want it to, glad you dropped that. No Confidants is the way to go if you want to run this stuff honestly. I'm running 4 Lili's, 2 Jace, no Confidants, but also I'm not running Coiling Oracle...which is what I want to ask, how is that working? I mean I thought about it..its nice but is it worth it so far?

[StefN]

This deck Has performed relatively strong in the six matches I have played with it. It generates some serious card advantage. Let me know what you thinck.

Nothing more to say ;).

[yaWgnorW]

Nothing more to say ;).

I didn't want to say it :P. On that note, its probably good to have 40 or more matches with a good field (ideally 60+) before really posting that something works great.

[jtos84]

Nothing more to say ;).

You never said anything. Are you commenting on the typo? I never said it works great. I said it performed strongly in the games I have played. I ran it in a small tournament, and it performed well. I have probably played about twenty five matches many of which were basically the mirror. I was looking for deck advise, not claiming this deck is finished work.

[Linqed]

Cutting Deathrite Shaman is amateur-hour.

I've been playing this list for a while now and took it to some strong finishes. Not 100% about all the cards. Here's the list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
1 Thoughtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
2 Dismember
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Plague
2 Force of Will

I don't like the Life from the Loam, it seemed good in theory, but I never was impressed by it. Also, I think 2 Deed and 2 Plague's might be a bit much. Might want to cut 1 of those cards for some other things. Maybe Mindbreak Trap for Storm, or something for Show & Tell decks... Not sure, I'd like a blue card to be able to board in against decks where you want the 4 Force of Will. A sideboard Jitte might be fine?

Also, no Baleful Strix, seemed too low impact. This might be wrong, but haven't wanted it in a match yet.. And yes, 23 lands, I think that's the way to go.

What do you guys think about playing basic Forest & Swamp? I guess it doesn't hurt too much when you play 23 land and I hate losing to blood moon...

Edit; I would probably go with a sideboard somewhere along the lines of:
1 Thoughtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte (Would make Baleful Strix a better choice)
2 Dismember
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Pernicious Deed (Better than Engineered Plague?)
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Force of Will

Thoughts?

[yaWgnorW]

Cutting Deathrite Shaman is amateur-hour.

I've been playing this list for a while now and took it to some strong finishes. Not 100% about all the cards. Here's the list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
1 Thoughtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
2 Dismember
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Plague
2 Force of Will

I don't like the Life from the Loam, it seemed good in theory, but I never was impressed by it. Also, I think 2 Deed and 2 Plague's might be a bit much. Might want to cut 1 of those cards for some other things. Maybe Mindbreak Trap for Storm, or something for Show & Tell decks... Not sure, I'd like a blue card to be able to board in against decks where you want the 4 Force of Will. A sideboard Jitte might be fine?

Also, no Baleful Strix, seemed too low impact. This might be wrong, but haven't wanted it in a match yet.. And yes, 23 lands, I think that's the way to go.

What do you guys think about playing basic Forest & Swamp? I guess it doesn't hurt too much when you play 23 land and I hate losing to blood moon...

Edit; I would probably go with a sideboard somewhere along the lines of:
1 Thoughtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte (Would make Baleful Strix a better choice)
2 Dismember
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Pernicious Deed (Better than Engineered Plague?)
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Force of Will

Thoughts?

If I ran 3x Jace in addition to 2 Lilanna I'd probably run 23 lands too, but I'm sticking with my 22 right now...Never had an issue. It seems like your missing a card if you prefer 23 lands? Or perhaps I did my math wrong. If your going with the discard package I'm surprised you don't prefer the 3 Hymn and 2 Thoughtseize, rather than the opposite. I've had more success with that. I also never ran LftL in Shardless, not that I didn't think it was good, just didn't view it as necessary. Engineered Plague is really for tribal things...Goblins, Elves, Merfolk I suppose...yadayada. It's instant and continual support, whereas Deed could take 2 turns and can be played around easier. Its really your call, both are good options.

[StefN]

Another Saturday, another 6 round Tournament. Played again 4-2 :(. Lost against MUD and Jund. Won against Burn ^^.
Again Golgari Charm was a blast. In One round my Opponent had 2 YoungPyromancer + 6 Token + played a Delver the Turn before I could clean the board.
In another Game I could destroy SneakAttack in my Second Turn (Pulse would had been too Slow in this Situation ). This Card is a must Play at the Moment in my opinion.

@Linqed: The List Looks Not Bad. I wouldnt Play only 2 Force, maybe 3, but they are just too important for the First rounds.
3 Thoughtseize are 1 too much for my Taste. I tried 3 for a while. 1 Thoughtseize per Game is nice (especially because its an additional First Turn Play), but normally you dont wanna Play more than 1 (Life loss is very important here).
Also Strix is very important against Fast Decks / Tempo. Against Delver you only Play Decays wich is Not enough (Pulse and Lili is often Not fast enough).
I would change the 2 plagues for two GolgCharms. They do the Same Job + are more flexible.

[Linqed]

Another Saturday, another 6 round Tournament. Played again 4-2 :(. Lost against MUD and Jund. Won against Burn ^^.
Again Golgari Charm was a blast. In One round my Opponent had 2 YoungPyromancer + 6 Token + played a Delver the Turn before I could clean the board.
In another Game I could destroy SneakAttack in my Second Turn (Pulse would had been too Slow in this Situation ). This Card is a must Play at the Moment in my opinion.

@Linqed: The List Looks Not Bad. I wouldnt Play only 2 Force, maybe 3, but they are just too important for the First rounds.
3 Thoughtseize are 1 too much for my Taste. I tried 3 for a while. 1 Thoughtseize per Game is nice (especially because its an additional First Turn Play), but normally you dont wanna Play more than 1 (Life loss is very important here).
Also Strix is very important against Fast Decks / Tempo. Against Delver you only Play Decays wich is Not enough (Pulse and Lili is often Not fast enough).
I would change the 2 plagues for two GolgCharms. They do the Same Job + are more flexible.

Haha, a friend of mine also plays MUD, always lose to him 2. I actually decided to just play 4 Force side lol. I added the Strixes instead, I think I'll try out Golgari Charms, they seem interesting.

About Delver decks, I finished second at the Legacy Championships @ GP Utrecht 2013 and won the warmup (4 rounds for 1 bye) with this deck, playing against Delver 3 times and won a GPT for Strasbourgh and played Delver again, I actually felt the matchup was very good and that I didn't need the Strixes... That said, I am trying them out because I feel if so many people are a fan, there's possibly something there :laugh:

[Kyle]

Deck Tech Discussion, on the topic of JTMS:

I personally have never had success with Jace in this deck. This is an extremely weak Jace deck and I have always felt he's "in there because he's Jace." Often, he's a 4-mana Brainstorm. That sucks.

Before people say I'm hating on Jace, I want to dispel that notion. Jace is amazing, in the decks he belongs in. He doesn't belong here. I want to have value cascade-able cards in his place or easier-to-cast 3-mana spells (Liliana, Maelstrom Pulse, Vendilion Clique). You have very little protection for JTMS and your card advantage engine alone doesn't make him better.

This is a 3-active-mana deck. Your spells shouldn't cost more than that.

What are you Cascade Players' experiences running him?

[Linqed]

Personally, I love him. His Unsummon gives you an out to Emrakul and pushes through that last damage, the brainstorming sets up Shardless Agents and generates CA (which is the point of the deck) and he's an alternate win-con when you can't win on damage or want to close out the game. I could see playing 2 instead of 3, but I would never cut him entirely. He does too much for that, but we already knew that.

If you're playing Tarmogoyf's, Shardless Agents and the occasional Baleful Strix, that's all the protection you need. It's not less than the Deathblade decks.

[StefN]

"in there because he's Jace."

Yep that's it. He's just too powerfull to Not Play him in this Deck. Especially since we have shaman, we can at least Support this cc4 Card.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DgnYhG_ekoH8. ;)

[Ashahura]

@Linqed

I don't like the Life from the Loam, it seemed good in theory, but I never was impressed by it. Also, I think 2 Deed and 2 Plague's might be a bit much. Might want to cut 1 of those cards for some other things. Maybe Mindbreak Trap for Storm, or something for Show & Tell decks... Not sure, I'd like a blue card to be able to board in against decks where you want the 4 Force of Will. A sideboard Jitte might be fine?


Have you thought about Venser, Shaper Savant? I've seen a few lists around having it for the S&T match.

[yaWgnorW]

@Linqed

Have you thought about Venser, Shaper Savant? I've seen a few lists around having it for the S&T match.

I've seen Venser used for the match up, however here is a question. How does it differ or compare to that of Sower of Temptation?

[The Treefolk Master]

I've seen Venser used for the match up, however here is a question. How does it differ or compare to that of Sower of Temptation?

Sower is obviously a greater blow out against Emrakul and/or Griselbrand.

However, its dead versus Omniscience, where Venser shines.

[Linqed]

Sower is obviously a greater blow out against Emrakul and/or Griselbrand.

However, its dead versus Omniscience, where Venser shines.

Wow... That's an awesome idea! Will definitely try Venser. I top 4'ed a legacy event with Shardless BUG today. This was the list I ran:



Maindeck
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Dismember
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will

Match 1: 0 - 2 Sam Black'esque BRW deck with Young Pyromancer. Game 1 too much land, game 2 too little land.
Match 2: 1 - 1 BG Nic Fit. Won game 1, he managed to pull a draw 1,5 minutes before time. He was pretty slow...
Match 3: 2 - 1 UB Reanimator. Got me pants down game 1, then, according to plan, it was smooth sailing game 2 and 3. He was almost all foiled out, so I casually asked if he was bummed he foiled his Reanimator deck and WotC prints DRS. He couldn't appreciate that.
Match 4: 2 - 1 UR Hivemind. Won game 1 on the back of some discard, game 2 no FoW/Lili for his turn 2 Emrakul and game 3 I FoW'ed his S&T, he played a Pact, I let it resolve and FoW'ed again.
Match 5: 2 - 1 Junk Midrange. Mostly cardadvantage and 1 for 1's took over.

Top 8: 2 - 1 Merfolk. game 1 he hits me for 18, game 2 I hit him for 16, game 3 I grind it out.
Top 4: 1 - 2 Goblins. Won game 1, lost game 2, played poorly game 3.

Took home an Arid Mesa and a signed Jit, which was cool.

I really didn't like the Hymns again to be honest and I'm not sold on no FoW's main. Might wanna cut the Hymns for at least 2 FoW's main again, maybe 3 somewhere. I can probably fit 2 Hymn's in the side for combo matchups. I also didn't like Pernicious Deed, think I liked Engineered Plague more.

That said, I really liked the 2 maindeck Liliana's I put in to fight Deathblade and I was pleasantly surprised with the Strixes, I'll probably keep those, even though I boarded them out a lot. The sideboard Jit was fantastic.

Moving on, I'll definitively try Venser and probably Golgari Charm in the board because Leyline was annoying as **** I still like the 1 Krosan Grip though...

[StefN]

Gratz for the finish. Goblins and Zomb. would had been easier for you if you had Golg.Charm or Plague in your board, but despite that I like your MD. I play the same 60 / +3 Force of Will, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Creeping Tar Pit.
My SB if someone is interested looks like that:

1x Pernicious Deed
2x Golgari Charm
1x Vendillion Clique
1x Sower of temptation
1x Force of Will
2x Thoughtseize
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Baleful Strix
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Umezawas Jitte

Sower so far has really done a great job, but I also ordered a Venser a few days ago so I will give it a try.

[Linqed]

Yeah, Pernicious Deed seemed sweet, but it's really too slow and 0 impact when it hits the board. Why do you prefer Charm of Plague? You value the versatility over the lasting effect? I might just cut the Maelstrom Pulse for a Golgari Charm though... Current sideboard looks like this:

1 Thoughtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dismember
2 Engineered Plague
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
2 Force of Will

Cut the 2 MD Hymn's for 2 FoW's.

[spg]

Gratz for the finish. Goblins and Zomb. would had been easier for you if you had Golg.Charm or Plague in your board, but despite that I like your MD. I play the same 60 / +3 Force of Will, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Creeping Tar Pit.
My SB if someone is interested looks like that:

1x Pernicious Deed
2x Golgari Charm
1x Vendillion Clique
1x Sower of temptation
1x Force of Will
2x Thoughtseize
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Baleful Strix
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Umezawas Jitte

Sower so far has really done a great job, but I also ordered a Venser a few days ago so I will give it a try.

Does anyone have enough experience testing to comment on the Golgari Charm vs. Engineered Plague selection?

This is the sideboard I have been using:

2x Thoughtseize
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Force of Will
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Mindbreak Trap
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Engineered Plague
2x Chill
1x Baleful Strix
1x Umezawa's Jitte

In my testing I've run into a decent number of Zombie decks, which has proven to be a terrible matchup for me. My discard spells are poor, but more importantly my spot removal just gets overwhelmed by their recurring threats. Game one has been pretty much impossible for me to win, but in games two and three Engineered Plague gives me a fighting chance. I still wouldn't say it's a good matchup, but it's winnable and at least I have a gameplan. Engineered Plague is also the main card I feel gives me an advantage in the Goblins matchup.

Do people feel the flexibility of Golgari Charm tips the scale against the lasting -1/-1 of Engineered Plague in matchups like Zombies/Goblins? Personally I haven't run into Leyline too much in my testing, so maybe if I had I would value Golgari Charm more highly.

[Korvo]

I used Golgari Charm the last 10 Games and it feels awesome. I won the last 2 games against Maverick only cause i got Golgari Charm and it helped me against Goblins and was great against Miracle (Counterbalance, Humility) and one game it killed 2 Mungos and 1 unflipped Delver against RUG.
I mostly always boarded Charm because of testing. I really would suggest you to try this nice card.

[jamis]

Yeah, Golgari Charm is awesome. Goblins is completely absent from my local meta, though, so in a different meta, I might go Plague over Charm or even run both.

Speaking of sideboarding, how do people normally board against Esper Stoneblade? I played against it twice yesterday, and wasn't really positive on what I wanted to take out. I ended up taking out:

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Baelful Strix

for

2 Life from the Loam
2 Extirpate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana

I also wanted to board in 2 Surgical Extraction and 2 Golgari Charm, but couldn't think of anything I wanted to take out for them.

[Adryan]

Deck Tech Discussion, on the topic of JTMS:

I personally have never had success with Jace in this deck. This is an extremely weak Jace deck and I have always felt he's "in there because he's Jace." Often, he's a 4-mana Brainstorm. That sucks.

Before people say I'm hating on Jace, I want to dispel that notion. Jace is amazing, in the decks he belongs in. He doesn't belong here. I want to have value cascade-able cards in his place or easier-to-cast 3-mana spells (Liliana, Maelstrom Pulse, Vendilion Clique). You have very little protection for JTMS and your card advantage engine alone doesn't make him better.

This is a 3-active-mana deck. Your spells shouldn't cost more than that.

What are you Cascade Players' experiences running him?

My experience with him because i play Shardless BUG, BUG Standstill, UWr Miracle and Esperdeathblade: He's a must in Shardless BUG. Jace wins games against Control and when you cut him some of your opponents will get free wins from you.

If your local meta doesn't have other Shardless BUG players or other blue based decks with Jace, sure you can cut him.

What do you guys do against Entreat the Angels? When i play with my Miracle list (2-3 Entreat), the Shardless BUG player will lose to it, if they don't have the nuts (ton of pressure, Wasteland, early Jace and FoW). The longer the game goes the more Miracle pilot is favored.

[Koby]

What do you guys do against Entreat the Angels? When i play with my Miracle list (2-3 Entreat), the Shardless BUG player will lose to it, if they don't have the nuts (ton of pressure, Wasteland, early Jace and FoW). The longer the game goes the more Miracle pilot is favored.

Ratchet Bomb / Powder Keg.
They provide nearly the same effect as Engineered Explosives but are not worthless of a Cascade target as EE.

[Linqed]

Ratchet Bomb / Powder Keg.
They provide nearly the same effect as Engineered Explosives but are not worthless of a Cascade target as EE.

Or Maelstrom Pulse


Yeah, Golgari Charm is awesome. Goblins is completely absent from my local meta, though, so in a different meta, I might go Plague over Charm or even run both.

Speaking of sideboarding, how do people normally board against Esper Stoneblade? I played against it twice yesterday, and wasn't really positive on what I wanted to take out. I ended up taking out:

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Baelful Strix

for

2 Life from the Loam
2 Extirpate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana

I also wanted to board in 2 Surgical Extraction and 2 Golgari Charm, but couldn't think of anything I wanted to take out for them.

Why would you want all that GY hate...? And Loam's seem bad. Also, taking out Ancestral in a match that'll go very long seems wrong to me as well. I just took out my FoW's and Hymn's first when sideboarding.

[jamis]

Why would you want all that GY hate...? And Loam's seem bad. Also, taking out Ancestral in a match that'll go very long seems wrong to me as well. I just took out my FoW's and Hymn's first when sideboarding.

Extirpate was to take out Lingering Souls. Also if I could hit an early Brainstorm or take out all the Jaces, I figured that'd be worth a card. I thought taking out Ancestral was correct to not open myself to Notion Thief, and because I thought I'd get enough value from Shardless Agent that I'd rather be cascading into threats to keep on pressure the Esper players. I may be wrong here, though, that's why I'm asking. I will admit Ancestral was absolute gold both game 1s. I wanted loam as a replacement card advantage engine. I figured it could also give me mana advantage to keep me ahead on board. I only saw it against one of the two decks, but during that game, I found out he only had 2 islands, 1 swamp, and 0 plains, so when I was able to re-cur wastelands, he scooped. I'm not sure how many basics the other player was playing, it may have been less useful there if he had a plains, but the situation didn't come up. I wanted my forces for Jace, Notion Theif, and any other possible bombs that could be put on the other side of the table.

[Linqed]

Problem is though that most of their threats are on bomb level, because that's what the entire deck is. It's mono-bombs, it's Esper Jund. The matchup is too grindy to 2 for 1 yourself on 1 card, they'll end up with 4-5 cards when you're with a single card in hand and they'll land their other Jace/Stoneforge/Dark Confidant/Geist/etc. Forces got nothing to do in this matchup. They usually only run 1 Notion Thief and if you see it, I would then start shaving an Ancestral or 2, though you'll be wanting to cascade in it anyway, not let them set it up when you're ticking it off. I run Dismembers in the board, to take out Notion Thiefs (though I can assure you, NT is not a legacy playable card), but also early Deathrites (on the draw), Stoneforges, etc. Don't dilute your entire gameplan because of a 1-off sideboard card.

The graveyard stuff is cute, but it seems terrible to be completely fair. Your Deathrites also take out their Lingering Souls if Surgical could, but it's just not worth it. Run Golgari Charm, Maelstrom Pulse or w/e if that's what's bothering you. Also, looking to extract Brainstorms or Jaces seems like the wrong thing to be setting up. Loaming your 2-off Wasteland fits better in your decks strategy than trying to get cute.

[Darkness]

I'm going to try Leejay's Whipflare tech for SCG Somerville. It seems that all the decks that I'm bringing in the awkward cards to serve two purposes, Nihil Spellbomb for example to use against Punishing Jund and Esper Stoneblade, are strictly worse than bringing in the correct forms of hate to beat both GY and Weenies for example, Whipflare and Leyline of the Void. Both cards do their jobs better than a hybrid like spell bomb. Also, I have cut down JtMS to a 2 of. You really only want it in the Jace Mirror War, Some Combo, and random Fringe decks like Lands, or MUD.

[Linqed]

Really? I want to see a Jace basically every time I reach 4 mana to be completely honest

[Darkness]

Really? I want to see a Jace basically every time I reach 4 mana to be completely honest

I am not trying to argue that Jace is not good, but when you're at 10 life facing down two goblin guides or there is a Thalia, Kotr, and MoM in play or a horde of goblins, Jace is not really the card I'm looking to play. In those MUs where I said he was good, yes I do want him every time, but when were playing the control roll that needs to take care of multiple creatures putting pressure on us, I prefer to see better cards.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Yeah, Jace is only good in the MU's about board control when you've stabilized the board and want to start getting ahead. If you play him without doing that he's often just a 4 mana Brainstorm, which is not terrible but still kind of bad.

[Linqed]

Well ofcourse, against decks like Goblin's Jace isn't the your best draw, but it can still be very powerful. Goblins doesn't always gum up the board as much. I feel that you want Jace against most matchup's though, and that he's very good there. It's just some matchup's where he's pretty poor. Goblins is certainly 1. I guess it's preference and meta if you wanna play 2 or 3, but I certainly wouldn't cut him entirely. The alternate wincon he provides is so valuable.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Well ofcourse, against decks like Goblin's Jace isn't the your best draw, but it can still be very powerful. Goblins doesn't always gum up the board as much. I feel that you want Jace against most matchup's though, and that he's very good there. It's just some matchup's where he's pretty poor. Goblins is certainly 1. I guess it's preference and meta if you wanna play 2 or 3, but I certainly wouldn't cut him entirely. The alternate wincon he provides is so valuable.

Yeah, I believe Jace is at least a MD 2-of in any Shardless BUG build. I think if you cut him completely, you really have to wonder why are we playing blue instead of red? He's definitely one of the reasons to play blue in the GBx Shell.

[Darkness]

Yeah, I believe Jace is at least a MD 2-of in any Shardless BUG build. I think if you cut him completely, you really have to wonder why are we playing blue instead of red? He's definitely one of the reasons to play blue in the GBx Shell.

Agent ---> Visions is why I am playing blue :laugh::tongue:

[StefN]

Question: Force of Will MD yes or no?!?!?!?

The last 6-7 month I allways played Forces Main. Switched between 3-4 copies. Now we all know that the European and the American Meta is sometimes different. The americans tend to play the version without Forces main atm. I allways had the opinion that Forces is a must play; early rounds, cards you definately want to counter, card disadvantage is easy to compensate with this deck, you want at least Forces against Combo for the first game, and so on.
Then a few days ago I thought, ok give it a try. I only switched a few cards from the sideboard with the Forces (Thoughtseize, Hymn, Strix and Jitte). I tested a few games (maybe 40-50 games) against Deathblade and Jund. I really have to say that the deck now is even more consistend and has even more card advantage then before. Before I lost more often against these Confi style decks. The long term power of the deck has definately risen now, the drawback is obviously that game 1 aginst Combo is even more worse then before.
There is not a lot of combo around here (in a 6 round tournament I maybe play 1-2 times max against combo). So is it worth the change or what do you guys thinck? Is Force still a must play? I mean the combo matchup preboard was allways hard (I even played a version with 4 Force, 2 Thoughtseize, 4-5 Hymn-Liliana split before and this wasn't enough before boarding).

Any experience with the Force-less version??

[rnightingale]

I've been using FOW-version ever since, Some problems i encountered where i can't just pitch any blue cards because most of them are value cards. Pitching them to FOW will only put me in a disadvantageous position. Though there's one time when my opponent went all-in casting Ad Nauseaum... golden moment where FOW really shines. :laugh:

Well i'm going to try the FOWless version this week. :D

[lordofthepit]

Question: Force of Will MD yes or no?!?!?!?

In my opinion, if you're not running Force of Will (and you're clearly not running other counterspells because they are terrible cards to cascade into), then you need to ask yourself why you're playing BUG instead of Jund or Junk.

[StefN]

In my opinion, if you're not running Force of Will (and you're clearly not running other counterspells because they are terrible cards to cascade into), then you need to ask yourself why you're playing BUG instead of Jund or Junk.

Main reason why I play BUG over Jund/Junk.

- Jace
- If not main then at least Force in the SB
- Blue in gerneral
- Brainstorm
- Jace
- Personal preferences. I like the BUG colours.
- Ancestral Vision
- Jace

:tongue:.

And now back to my question. Is Force main necessary??

[Korvo]

I don't like BUG lists without Force. It depends on the current Meta and in my Meta (Austria) there are a lot of combo decks. So i would never play without at least 3 Forces main.

[Linqed]

Main reason why I play BUG over Jund/Junk.

- Jace
- If not main then at least Force in the SB
- Blue in gerneral
- Brainstorm
- Jace
- Personal preferences. I like the BUG colours.
- Ancestral Vision
- Jace

:tongue:.

And now back to my question. Is Force main necessary??

Personally, I don't play it main. It's a toss up, though. If I expect more combo, I switch the 2 maindeck Hymn to Tourach for 2 FoW's and keep the other 2 FoW sideboard plus the 2 Hymns.

[Darkness]

In my opinion, if you're not running Force of Will (and you're clearly not running other counterspells because they are terrible cards to cascade into), then you need to ask yourself why you're playing BUG instead of Jund or Junk.

Agreed. I actually switched to 4 FoW MD to improve my combo match up. I feel pretty comfortable with my fair deck match ups. Another point to playing force in Shardless BUG is the that we can afford to put ourselves in a card disadvantage situation and because of Visions we are not punished as harshly compared to Deathblade, Esper or Miracles. I think that in itself is worth the FoW. Also more FoW vs let's say Hymn means higher probability into blind Agent into visions.

[Linqed]

Agreed. I actually switched to 4 FoW MD to improve my combo match up. I feel pretty comfortable with my fair deck match ups. Another point to playing force in Shardless BUG is the that we can afford to put ourselves in a card disadvantage situation and because of Visions we are not punished as harshly compared to Deathblade, Esper or Miracles. I think that in itself is worth the FoW. Also more FoW vs let's say Hymn means higher probability into blind Agent into visions.

You play very few blue cards for Force though. 4 maindeck seems like a clear mistake. I would say 3 is the max.

[yaWgnorW]

My thing with FoW in the main is, I'd rather have it MD and have option to side it out, versus being weaker game 1 to a deck that we need to run FoW against; and then having to side it in and already being a game down.

I also agree that the advantage with blue is the FoW. While I think the FoWless version is fine, I just think going into game 1 is stronger, regardless of the matchup, with FoW.

[GrugalM]

I have been testing several things online lately and was satisfied by two of them.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5625472

However if I would play in a meta without many show and tells I would definitely play the list linked by Dragonslayer_90. Explanations are disseminated, but I wonder if you really searched for them since I summarized the general philosophy on page 14 and page 16, and the decklist given by Dragonslayer_90 was page 15.

Lejay thanks for all of your help in this thread.

I only have 1 question and its about having 61 cards in the deck. Any particular reason?

[Linqed]

You guys just watched Gerry Thompson crush Chris VanMeter at the Invitational just now? He went back to the CawBlade mirror principle, going for all out boardpresence, not cardadvantage per se. He sided out his Hymn's/Thoughtseizes. VanMeter Hymned Gerry twice and he still got crushed because he ended up with some awkward useless discard in hand. I really like the approach.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

You guys just watched Gerry Thompson crush Chris VanMeter at the Invitational just now? He went back to the CawBlade mirror principle, going for all out boardpresence, not cardadvantage per se. He sided out his Hymn's/Thoughtseizes. VanMeter Hymned Gerry twice and he still got crushed because he ended up with some awkward useless discard in hand. I really like the approach.

Why would you keep them in? Deathblade has an equally good lategame as we do, maybe even better, so you should try to be te agressor in that match and Shardless is very capable of doing this.

If i remember correctly he made some plays in the feature match yesterday that i'd have done different and which might have won, but i will review the footage before commenting further on this.

[Linqed]

Why would you keep them in? Deathblade has an equally good lategame as we do, maybe even better, so you should try to be te agressor in that match and Shardless is very capable of doing this.

If i remember correctly he made some plays in the feature match yesterday that i'd have done different and which might have won, but i will review the footage before commenting further on this.

I was pointing out a clear example, but whatever dude. Worst and most pretentious comment ever. Also, lol @ the last part. Everything is pretty easy standing on the side, but you're not there so don't go saying you would've won this and that. It's pretty easy to play around every card in your opponents hand when you can actually see it on camera.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

I was pointing out a clear example, but whatever dude. Worst and most pretentious comment ever. Also, lol @ the last part. Everything is pretty easy standing on the side, but you're not there so don't go saying you would've won this and that. It's pretty easy to play around every card in your opponents hand when you can actually see it on camera.

No need to get condescending. If i missed you point i apologize as english is not my native language and i might have misunderstood what you wanted to point out.

[...]

I did not even say you were wrong with what you said, i just wondered if anybody actually keeps discard against Deathblade, while you did not actually say anything relevant regarding the tpic besides that you like it.

Edit: Forget what i said about the plays, i missed a point during the match and succesfully look like an idiot now ;) Earned it. Apologies especially to GerryT, rooting for you.

Linqed, nothing personal, i don't even know you, i probably just get mad at the commentators at the Invitational.


Edit 2:

4 Shardless among the Legacy part of the Top8 competitors is pretty amazing. Unluckily we will see a standart Top8 :(

[StefN]

@ No Force discussion.

Seems that everyone is playing 3-4 Forces Main at the invitational :).

[yaWgnorW]

No need to get condescending. If i missed you point i apologize as english is not my native language and i might have misunderstood what you wanted to point out.

[...]

I did not even say you were wrong with what you said, i just wondered if anybody actually keeps discard against Deathblade, while you did not actually say anything relevant regarding the tpic besides that you like it.

Edit: Forget what i said about the plays, i missed a point during the match and succesfully look like an idiot now ;) Earned it. Apologies especially to GerryT, rooting for you.

Linqed, nothing personal, i don't even know you, i probably just get mad at the commentators at the Invitational.


Edit 2:

4 Shardless among the Legacy part of the Top8 competitors is pretty amazing. Unluckily we will see a standart Top8 :(

The most interesting list I've seen is Andrew Tenjum, which is running 2 FoW in the main, and 2 copies of Massacre in the side...a card I've been favoring a lot for the last 2 months or so.

[Lejay]

Lejay thanks for all of your help in this thread.

I only have 1 question and its about having 61 cards in the deck. Any particular reason?


I play 61 cards to adjust the lands to spells ratio.

[Linqed]

Massacre seems very mediocre. It gets shut down by Teeg and it kills you own Agents, Deathrites and Strixes too. Against Maverick for instance, if they have a Knight and you have a Goyf, even when all the little stuff dies you're still probably going to lose to the Knight getting bigger than Goyf.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Massacre seems very mediocre. It gets shut down by Teeg and it kills you own Agents, Deathrites and Strixes too. Against Maverick for instance, if they have a Knight and you have a Goyf, even when all the little stuff dies you're still probably going to lose to the Knight getting bigger than Goyf.

Teeg on the other hand i pretty bad against us postboard, most player i knwo will board them out, as they are not really afraid of force nor Jace when the want to resolve their Zeniths and keep playing Elspeth and co.

It is a total metagame call, like Chill. Massacre is bad when you can not really cast it, but it is insane when your opponent doesn't expect it.

Last tourney i killed Grim Lavamancer + Geist + Delver with a Massacre that could not get Spell Pierced and that singlehandedly won the game. I prefer Golgari Charm or Deed mostly though.

Knight is the only card you need to Decay when you hold Massacre, so i'm fine with that.

[Adryan]

Asking GT about Flusterstorm:


Flusterstorm is obviously good vs combo, but I probably wouldn't side out Shardless Agent unless you didn't have any discard. Buuuut at that point you're a BUG deck with no discard and just trying to beat them with Flusterstorm and FOW probably isn't going to work.




A few months later when he realizes that Shardless Agent is not good against Combo: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57839

I had to laugh a lot ^^- and i know other people who will laugh more^^


Today i played with a Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce etc SB at a small local tournament. I was paired 4 times against Combo and lost only one match, so the best approach to beat combo decks is to side Shardless Agent out for Counterspells. Shardless BUG is favored against allmost all fair decks (except Jund and a few fringe decks like BUG Standstill etc.), so you should definetely play some cards that are only really good against Combo.

[GerryT]

Asking GT about Flusterstorm:





A few months later when he realizes that Shardless Agent is not good against Combo: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57839

I had to laugh a lot ^^- and i know other people who will laugh more^^


Today i played with a Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce etc SB at a small local tournament. I was paired 4 times against Combo and lost only one match, so the best approach to beat combo decks is to side Shardless Agent out for Counterspells. Shardless BUG is favored against allmost all fair decks (except Jund and a few fringe decks like BUG Standstill etc.), so you should definetely play some cards that are only really good against Combo.

Did I ever say Flusterstorm was bad? Your reading comprehension needs work.

[Lennard]

To all those who are playing Gerry´s List. How do you handle a resolved Mirran Crusader?
DnT and some Maverick are playing him at least in the SB. Unfortunately Lilli isnt often an answer due to small pets around him. In addition often Maverick can Fetch into Dryad Arbor or DnT can vial into anything else.

This guy is one of the reasons I am thinking to siwtch to Lejay´s list! In Europe a lot of players are on DnT or Maverick. Maybe at states there is a different Meta but at the moment I cant imagine to not have anythig against this badass....

[GerryT]

To all those who are playing Gerry´s List. How do you handle a resolved Mirran Crusader?
DnT and some Maverick are playing him at least in the SB. Unfortunately Lilli isnt often an answer due to small pets around him. In addition often Maverick can Fetch into Dryad Arbor or DnT can vial into anything else.

This guy is one of the reasons I am thinking to siwtch to Lejay´s list! In Europe a lot of players are on DnT or Maverick. Maybe at states there is a different Meta but at the moment I cant imagine to not have anythig against this badass....

Golgari Charm + Liliana, Jace, and discard are the only real answers. I had Sower of Temptation in my sideboard for a little bit also. Obviously it can be difficult to deal with, but you also have some lines you can take to kill it. Red for Whipflare is reasonable if you expect lots of little white creatures.

[Finn]

D+T can pretty effectively make you pay for going to four colors though. Mana denial, yeah, but also it has a lot of ways to handle DRS (STP and Revoker plus incidental stuff like Mangara, Jitte, etc, and then the SB stuff like Sunlance and RiP - it's a lot). Generally, if you can gain card advantage of any sort without spending too many resources it works out. G1 Snapcaster is good, but bad g2. Confidant. Mystic, all good. D+T players hate to see Dread of Night most, though it is pretty darned narrow, and not a guarantee. But that is the kind of hate you are going to need. I think I like Golgari Charm best if you can reasonably cast it, but there is a reason D+T likes to face this deck.

[GrugalM]

I see that Leejay is splashing Red in his list, do you think we are stretching ourselves to far if we start to explore a 4th color?

Deathblade is doing it.

Anyone have experience with that type of build?

[luckme10]

Anyone else who's currently running a red splash tired of seeing it wasted? I'd like to mull over an idea regarding the red splash manabase:


Top Decks
Play Blue
Play Wasteland
Does access to red sideboard cards provide utility against this matchup?


Canadian Thresh
x
x
REB


BUG Control
x
x
REB


Jund

x
Yes, firesprout or whipflare


Maverick

x
firesprout whipflare


Elves


firesprout


Miracle Control
x

REB


Sneak Attack
x

REB


OmniTell
x

REB


Team America
x
x
Yes


ANT
x

REB


Death and Taxes

x
Firesprout


Blade control
x
x
REB


Deathblade
x
x
Yes


Patriot
x
x
Yes






So these were the point leaders on the council. Of the 10 decks that play blue, 6 play wasteland. The others 3, Maverick, D&T, and Jund are all vulnerable to red's board sweepers.
In fact, I may go as far as to say decks that run wasteland are generally the most vulnerable against a red splash! How many decks can you think of that run wasteland where this isn't the case?



Think about it... Does Patriot, deathblade, blade control, bug control, canadian thresh or team america want to see a REB? Does Death and Taxes, Jund or maverick actually want to see a firesprout?

Having said this, when we're trying to splash a color to help up these matches, why are we relying on a dual like volcanic island? A card that is vulnerable to wasteland, and yet is the only access to the color splash we need?

The most commonly card hit by wasteland is usually your volcanic island. And if you're playing a deck that's going to need REB or Firesprout or whipflare, that red mana source is pretty important.


Considering this, how about a manabase that consists of all red fetchlands and one basic in the sideboard instead of a deck that runs one volcanic island and mainly blue fetches? Since over half the blue decks you're playing against will try to cut you off red when you actually would need it and most of the aggro decks will try to cut you off your sweepers. If you run all red fetchlands, you won't be reducing the chances of actually grabbing the card. And your manabase will always be allowed to pick up what ever color you want should you run multiple bayous. For this reason, I think it's worth considering a manabase like the one below.


Main Deck
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Mountain

Summary:
If all Decks that run Wasteland Don't Like Red Sideboard Cards.
And all Decks that run wasteland will try to use wasteland to keep you off of your Red Splash.
Therefore, Run red source that is immune to wasteland.

[Cire_dk]

@luckme10 Great analysis. You convinced me! But I am not the most experienced Shardless Player around :smile: I am looking forward to what the 'pro's 'have to say.

[Water_Wizard]

vs. MonoU OmniTell, using Gerry T's most-recent list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57839), how do we sideboard?

- 2 Baleful Strix
- 4 Abrupt Decay
- 2 Creeping Tar Pit

+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Liliana of the Viel
+1 Hymn to Tourach
+2 Thoughtseize

Tar Pit seems bad as we need a quick clock vs. MonoU OmniTell and we don't need to worry about land destruction. Liliana seems kind of bad, as it conflicts with holding counterspells (especially FOW), but Liliana is good because she gets around Leyline of Sanctity. Golgari Charm is good as it destroys Dream Halls and Omniscience before any sorceries can be cast, but Abrupt Decay is good because it destroys Defense Grid (but is otherwise a dead card). Maelstrom Pulse seems like a must, as it hits LoS and Defense Grid.

[Lennard]

At least for Lejay´s list REB doesnt fit the gameplan well. It is everything about boardpresence and card advantage.
Where Whipflare often trade 1:2 and can change the board presence to our favor it is also something you like to cascade into. REB trade 1:1 and is mostly worse if cascaded.

I don´t think that one Badlands makes our Landbase drasticly more fragile. Be aware that there is also no need for more red sided duals because we have also DRS and the Agent for Whipflare.

[StefN]

Main Deck
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Mountain

Summary:
If all Decks that run Wasteland Don't Like Red Sideboard Cards.
And all Decks that run wasteland will try to use wasteland to keep you off of your Red Splash.
Therefore, Run red source that is immune to wasteland.

In my opinion, the only option you have when you try to splash red is to play a single Badland or Volcanic. First of all, a Mountain in the SB is an absolutely waste of a sideboard slot. Secondly the manabase you posted sux (don't take it personal). With all these red fetchies, you can't allways fetch the duals you want, and this is bad.

[Adryan]

vs. MonoU OmniTell, using Gerry T's most-recent list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57839), how do we sideboard?

- 2 Baleful Strix
- 4 Abrupt Decay
- 2 Creeping Tar Pit

+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Liliana of the Viel
+1 Hymn to Tourach
+2 Thoughtseize

Tar Pit seems bad as we need a quick clock vs. MonoU OmniTell and we don't need to worry about land destruction. Liliana seems kind of bad, as it conflicts with holding counterspells (especially FOW), but Liliana is good because she gets around Leyline of Sanctity. Golgari Charm is good as it destroys Dream Halls and Omniscience before any sorceries can be cast, but Abrupt Decay is good because it destroys Defense Grid (but is otherwise a dead card). Maelstrom Pulse seems like a must, as it hits LoS and Defense Grid.

I wouldn't cut all 4 Decays because of Defense Grid. Keeping Shardless Agent postboard sounds like a lot of fun. Revealing all these Golgari Charms and Flusterstorms with no targets on board.... I never tried Shardless Agent and Flusterstorm together because it sounds really bad.

I'm really interested why he only played two copies of Flusterstorm, maybe i can learn something.

[demonlord340]

Gerry, how would you change your list if you were to splash red for whip flare?

[Water_Wizard]

I wouldn't cut all 4 Decays because of Defense Grid. Keeping Shardless Agent postboard sounds like a lot of fun. Revealing all these Golgari Charms and Flusterstorms with no targets on board.... I never tried Shardless Agent and Flusterstorm together because it sounds really bad.

I'm really interested why he only played two copies of Flusterstorm, maybe i can learn something.

Good point about Shardless and Golgari/Flusterstorm/Abrupt Decay. However, Shardless helps with the U count for FOW. 4 Ancestral, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Flusterstorm, 3 Jace, 3 FOW = 16 U cards. Keeping the Shardless ups the count to 20, granting a better chance of having a U card in your hand to pitch to FOW. I'm not sure that this is the right answer, but it's a tough question and that's why I'm asking here.

[luckme10]

In my opinion, the only option you have when you try to splash red is to play a single Badland or Volcanic. First of all, a Mountain in the SB is an absolutely waste of a sideboard slot. Secondly the manabase you posted sux (don't take it personal). With all these red fetchies, you can't allways fetch the duals you want, and this is bad.


With this dual mana base, these red fetchlands will always be able to get you access to the 3 colors that you need, regardless of which one you pull. While the vulnerability may be more prevalent against decks able to draw multiple wastelands, if I'm playing against a deck with multiple wastelands, I think I'd rather be protected against the red splash because those red sideboard cards are exactly the cards I would want against wasteland based decks.

[Pherion]

Hello Everyone!

I've been playing RUG, Stoneblade, TES, Elves and Junk a lot lately, and I've decided to try something different. I took apart all my decks (except TES - it's just too fun), and built this one. Here's my current list and my ideas below.

Lands (22)
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

Spells
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Force of Will
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Baleful Strix

So far I am liking the deck - though I've only goldfished some. I do have a few questions for those who have more experience with the deck (mostly with regards to sideboard):

VS. Combo - I have designed the board so that Shardless Agent is still useful after boarding. My current combo hate is Force, Hymn, Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique. Only the Clique and Force can't be cascaded into, and all but Force are proactive. My gameplan is to take their hand apart and kill them before they can recover. I'm curious if this is a viable strategy, or if the use of more reactionary cards like Flusterstorm is required.
VS. Tribal/Aggro - I have included two Jitte and two Golgari Charm primarily for tribal match-ups. I suspect the Strix would be useful for more aggro oriented tribal (not Elves). I am enjoying the discussion of Whipflare, but I'm not sure I really like it that much. It seems this deck is relatively dependent upon Deathrite Shaman for a long term clock and both Whipflare and Firespout kill him.
Other Sideboard Choices - I included Sower of Temptation for bomb decks like Jund and Maverick, and I guess if I run into an actual show and tell deck he she could come in. Spellbombs I like a lot because they continue the theme of the deck (physical card advantage) while providing effective and early graveyard disruption (in addition to Shaman). And the only thing I haven't mentioned is Lilly... I think she's pretty obvious - also for bomb decks.


I'm looking forward to playing this deck more and there should be some fun discussions here! Please feel free to dissect my build as much as you like!

[yaWgnorW]

Hello Everyone!

I've been playing RUG, Stoneblade, TES, Elves and Junk a lot lately, and I've decided to try something different. I took apart all my decks (except TES - it's just too fun), and built this one. Here's my current list and my ideas below.

Lands (22)
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

Spells
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Force of Will
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Baleful Strix

So far I am liking the deck - though I've only goldfished some. I do have a few questions for those who have more experience with the deck (mostly with regards to sideboard):

VS. Combo - I have designed the board so that Shardless Agent is still useful after boarding. My current combo hate is Force, Hymn, Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique. Only the Clique and Force can't be cascaded into, and all but Force are proactive. My gameplan is to take their hand apart and kill them before they can recover. I'm curious if this is a viable strategy, or if the use of more reactionary cards like Flusterstorm is required.
VS. Tribal/Aggro - I have included two Jitte and two Golgari Charm primarily for tribal match-ups. I suspect the Strix would be useful for more aggro oriented tribal (not Elves). I am enjoying the discussion of Whipflare, but I'm not sure I really like it that much. It seems this deck is relatively dependent upon Deathrite Shaman for a long term clock and both Whipflare and Firespout kill him.
Other Sideboard Choices - I included Sower of Temptation for bomb decks like Jund and Maverick, and I guess if I run into an actual show and tell deck he she could come in. Spellbombs I like a lot because they continue the theme of the deck (physical card advantage) while providing effective and early graveyard disruption (in addition to Shaman). And the only thing I haven't mentioned is Lilly... I think she's pretty obvious - also for bomb decks.


I'm looking forward to playing this deck more and there should be some fun discussions here! Please feel free to dissect my build as much as you like!

Glad you decided to try this deck out.
Anyway...you mentioned how you designed your sideboard to work with Agent, but with the exception of a few cards, between that and your already present main deck strategy it doesn't seem like you changed much from lists a few weeks back. I'm with the idea that Agent hurts the combo game. Sure you can rely on taking their hand apart, but it takes a few of those spells to really be effective. Its more of a 'slow down a second'. Leylines are a thing, and that stops your discard. You have 2 Golgari Charm, but thats 2 more spots in the deck your trying to fit in there with Agent. I'd still just drop the Agent and run with Flusterstorm and whatever other combo hate thats applicable for that deck. The more things you add that the Shardless Agent cannot cascade into, the worse the deck becomes.

[Pherion]

Glad you decided to try this deck out.
Anyway...you mentioned how you designed your sideboard to work with Agent, but with the exception of a few cards, between that and your already present main deck strategy it doesn't seem like you changed much from lists a few weeks back. I'm with the idea that Agent hurts the combo game. Sure you can rely on taking their hand apart, but it takes a few of those spells to really be effective. Its more of a 'slow down a second'. Leylines are a thing, and that stops your discard. You have 2 Golgari Charm, but thats 2 more spots in the deck your trying to fit in there with Agent. I'd still just drop the Agent and run with Flusterstorm and whatever other combo hate thats applicable for that deck. The more things you add that the Shardless Agent cannot cascade into, the worse the deck becomes.

Wow, I completely forgot about Leyline of Sanctity. You're absolutely right though, I can't rely on the discard with that out there in the meta. I guess I'll have to take a second look at the board. Thanks!

[Dzra]

I wouldn't cut all 4 Decays because of Defense Grid. Keeping Shardless Agent postboard sounds like a lot of fun. Revealing all these Golgari Charms and Flusterstorms with no targets on board.... I never tried Shardless Agent and Flusterstorm together because it sounds really bad.

I don't think I'd expect combo decks to bring in Defense Grid if they have access to Leyline. BUG runs anywhere between 3-6 pieces of counter magic, but runs a solid 7-8 discard guaranteed. Perhaps after they see Flusterstorm g3, they might decide to bring in Defense Grid, but I don't think they can dilute their deck enough to run both.

You are trying to bring in 2 Flusterstorms, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Hymn, and possibly 2 Golgari Charms. Strix can go, but that still leaves you 3-5 slots you need to find. Abrupt Decay just makes the most sense. That doesn't even include if you have the 4th FoW, Clique, or GY hate that you might be trying to bring in.

Even if you decided to cut the Shardless Agents, you'd likely have to leave some Strix in for the :u: count, meaning Abrupt Decay still gets the axe.

[GerryT]

Gerry, how would you change your list if you were to splash red for whip flare?

Depends what you are trying to beat. You could run my shell (which aims to be solid against everything) or you play Lejay's list with no discard which is better against fair decks.

[Kyle]

Major primer overhaul folks. Would love some feedback if y'all can provide.

[Blitzbold]

Major primer overhaul folks. Would love some feedback if y'all can provide.

Great work so far. Some points catched my eye, though - here's the feedback you asked for.

- Some of your tags are broken.

- The 'core deck' doesn't necessarily contain that many cards. Baleful Strix for example will only be there if a diverse meta is expected. No reason to take them if a control / combo heavy field lies ahead of you. Same is true for Liliana, although you mention her possible absence in the SB section.

- When describing some of the good matchups you call Deed the reason for them being good, but you mentioned before that it's one of the cards prominently missing from the usual lists. It isn't even on the list for sideboard cards.

- Greedy, but nevertheless viable splashes like 1 Badlands main, 3 Whipflare SB are missing. This is quite nice when a lot of swarm decks are expected.

[Water_Wizard]

GerryT - how do you side against the MonoU Omnitell match up?

Thanks in advance,

W_W

[Kyle]

Great work so far. Some points catched my eye, though - here's the feedback you asked for.

Hey Blitzbold, thanks for the feedback. I fixed the tags that were obviously wrong and put a "coming soon" under the Matchups section (I didn't remove it thinking there'd still be valuable info, but forgot it was incredibly dated).

I also included Whipflare in the SB section, and am looking for more cards that should go in the SB section. Flusterstorm comes to mind.

Also, I think the core list was pretty close. For example, I've noticed Baleful Strix turning up in almost every list I've seen in the past two months, but you're right that it's in there due to meta shifts. Liliana, on the other hand, I agree is not necessarily part of "the core," though more and more lists are running her. Updated!

I really appreciate the input, when you type that much stuff your eyes start to bleed after a while.

[GerryT]

GerryT - how do you side against the MonoU Omnitell match up?

Thanks in advance,

W_W

From my Somerset list:

+ 2 Golgari Charm, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Liliana of the Veil
- 4 Abrupt Decay, 1 Ancestral Vision, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Shardless Agent

I think the ideal sideboard plan would be +2 Arcane Laboratory (maybe Mana Maze, but Lab seems better) and cutting all the Shardless Agents.

[Blitzbold]

From my Somerset list:

+ 2 Golgari Charm, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Liliana of the Veil
- 4 Abrupt Decay, 1 Ancestral Vision, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Shardless Agent

I think the ideal sideboard plan would be +2 Arcane Laboratory (maybe Mana Maze, but Lab seems better) and cutting all the Shardless Agents.

Arcane Lab sounds nice. I have to reconsider my SB to fit 2 of them, though, this won't be easy.

Regarding the boarding question - wouldn't it be reasonable to leave 1-2 Decay in the Deck for cards like Defense Grid and such?

[Pherion]

Arcane Lab sounds nice. I have to reconsider my SB to fit 2 of them, though, this won't be easy.

Regarding the boarding question - wouldn't it be reasonable to leave 1-2 Decay in the Deck for cards like Defense Grid and such?

I feel like Arcane Laboratory is counterproductive. We want to resolve an visions and be able to generate tempo from it. Once we have a lab in play, our only real card advantage engine becomes Shardless Agent (which probably comes out in the match-ups we want lab). We lose physical card advantage by only being able to play one spell per turn, and are reduced to card quality (by nature of having so many cards in hand).

It might be good in a storm match-up, but I think I'd still stick with Flusterstorm.

Just my two cents :)

[Madmankevinx]

Are there any SB options to deal with Blood Moon aside from ratchet bomb/powers keg? Assume we have no Deathrite out and no basic swamp in the deck to cast him if we find him.

[jarvisyu]

Depends what you are trying to beat. You could run my shell (which aims to be solid against everything) or you play Lejay's list with no discard which is better against fair decks.

I ran the 'no discard' plan in Somerset.

Wasn't really where I wanted to be, I think.

[Darkness]

I ran the 'no discard' plan in Somerset.

Wasn't really where I wanted to be, I think.

Agreed, I'm going back to a list with more discard, hymn is a card I'm liking more and more against all types of decks.

[Darkness]

Tested against a new UWR Delver player and went 4-1 all pre board games. I was playing with Gerry T's NJ Invitational List. Interesting points to point out.

-Visions, though not the best card, is better in this matchup compared to RUG Delver due to their much slower clock.
-Strix is Slightly worse when they land a Lavamancer but is still a great card.
-Their ability to lay a turn one threat and attack your mana is much less potent than RUG, thus why I think the matchup pre board is heavily in our favor.

Anyone else have input on this matchup post board? I'm sure REBs are annoying.

[Kyle]

I ran the 'no discard' plan in Somerset.

Wasn't really where I wanted to be, I think.

I think the discard shell is definitely the way to go, but I like the inclusion of a couple FoWs MD for the unexpected "fuck I need to counter that topdecked hate".

[SansSerif]

Agreed, I'm going back to a list with more discard, hymn is a card I'm liking more and more against all types of decks.


I think the key choice when building this deck is to decide how much (if any) discard to run. There has been some discussion on this thread on targeted discard (Thoughtseize, Duress, ect) and on Hymn, but these conversations usually boil down to one of the following points:
- I like Hymn for the card advantage.
- I do not like the randomness of Hymn.
- Hymn does not help with tempo.
- Discard is a bad top deck late game.

I understand how discard works against unfair decks, but I wonder how effective it is against fair decks. Our problem against fair decks is tempo, especially in the early turns. With discard, we are investing our resources to take our opponent's potential threat(s) while having no direct impact on the board state. This is fine if our opponent has only 1 threat in hand, but if he has multiple threats in hand, or already has a strong board presence, our discard is lackluster.

My questions: Is discard good enough in fair match-ups to include it in our Maindeck? If we don't have discard MD, is FOW + Liliana good enough game 1 against combo decks?

EDIT: I forgot to mention Lejay's post a little while back. He goes into great detail comparing GerryT's build against his own build vs. ANT. He concludes that this build (with no discard MD) still leaves us with a favorable match up. I am wondering how things would look against the other combo decks.

[demonlord340]

I can only speak of my own experience but after playing lejay's list and Gerry's I greatly prefer Gerry's. I am running 3x whip flare in the board which really helps against the fair decks that might lead somebody to play lejay's list. As far as hymn being random, I never felt bad blindly cascading into one and in some cases it led to a complete blow out. On the other hand, with lejay's list I was very underwhelmed with the 4x Lilliana's which you can't cascade into. There were a number of games where I would have rather just played hymn than dropping Lilly. I guess my feeling is that the advantage you get against fair decks by running less discard isn't significant enough to not run Gerry's far more versatile list.

[GerryT]

Arcane Lab sounds nice. I have to reconsider my SB to fit 2 of them, though, this won't be easy.

Regarding the boarding question - wouldn't it be reasonable to leave 1-2 Decay in the Deck for cards like Defense Grid and such?

I do not expect them to board in Defense Grid against my 3-4 FOWs. If they do, I'm fine with them having more semi-dead cards like Leyline of Sanctity that they can cantrip into.


I feel like Arcane Laboratory is counterproductive. We want to resolve an visions and be able to generate tempo from it. Once we have a lab in play, our only real card advantage engine becomes Shardless Agent (which probably comes out in the match-ups we want lab). We lose physical card advantage by only being able to play one spell per turn, and are reduced to card quality (by nature of having so many cards in hand).

It might be good in a storm match-up, but I think I'd still stick with Flusterstorm.

Just my two cents :)

I would not be worried about gaining card advantage against a combo deck.


Are there any SB options to deal with Blood Moon aside from ratchet bomb/powers keg? Assume we have no Deathrite out and no basic swamp in the deck to cast him if we find him.

If you are worried about Blood Moon, you should play a different deck.

[phazonmutant]

I've played a 2-2-2 split of Thoughtseize, Hymn, and Liliana before, and it was pretty excellent. Lately lists have been cutting down on discard a little bit, so you may not be able to fit in all 6 pieces of discard, but having a split of similar effects prevents you from being flooded on one when others might be better. 4 Liliana is strong against Leyline of Sanctity, but it can be too slow in the combo matchup, so I prefer to run some number of cheaper effects.

SansSerif - a lot of time discard serves as removal in the fair matchups. The biggest problem with it is that it sets us back on tempo, but in the creature matchups that's usually fine since the bottleneck is enough removal. Most non-tempo fair decks don't kill quickly enough that being a little behind on tempo is a big deal, and the tempo decks are threat-light so you can sometimes catch their only man. If you can cast her, Liliana is usually very good because she's tempo-positive.

[Dragonslayer_90]

@ GerryT: So Darkness and I were playtesting a mirror the other day. We got into a discussion about siding out FoW in the mirror. He kept in two for our post-board games while I had mine sided out for most of them. He was able to either tempo me out or at least stop me from getting to far ahead in many games. I tried keeping two in at some point. It seemed to work out pretty good for me sometimes, but I just still wasn't sure whether it was good enough to keep MD since they seem like terrible top decks late game. I know your known for having a different opinion on when or when not side FoW out whereas many others just seem to side all of them out when playing against non-combo decks. I guess my question is do you keep any FoWs in the mirror or against any Jace deck? Also, is Maelstrom Pulse worth having in the deck for Jace mirrors despite the potential draw back post-board?

[jarvisyu]

@ GerryT: So Darkness and I were playtesting a mirror the other day. We got into a discussion about siding out FoW in the mirror. He kept in two for our post-board games while I had mine sided out for most of them. He was able to either tempo me out or at least stop me from getting to far ahead in many games. I tried keeping two in at some point. It seemed to work out pretty good for me sometimes, but I just still wasn't sure whether it was good enough to keep MD since they seem like terrible top decks late game. I know your known for having a different opinion on when or when not side FoW out whereas many others just seem to side all of them out when playing against non-combo decks. I guess my question is do you keep any FoWs in the mirror or against any Jace deck? Also, is Maelstrom Pulse worth having in the deck for Jace mirrors despite the potential draw back post-board?

I like leaving in 1-2 nowadays for postboard games because of Notion Thief (to a lesser degree) and getting ahead on board is a very real thing. Sometimes Ancestral Vision is too slow to catch you up if you get too far behind on board.

[Darkness]

I like leaving in 1-2 nowadays for postboard games because of Notion Thief (to a lesser degree) and getting ahead on board is a very real thing. Sometimes Ancestral Vision is too slow to catch you up if you get too far behind on board.

This was my line of thinking when I put them in. The matchup has small pieces of card advantage, and then someone usually has a blow out spell, which unless you stop it or have a follow up blow out spell, that determines the winner of the match. 1-2 FoW allows you to stop that one key spell, a Resolving Visions/Hymn/Thief/JtMS, without sacrificing to much card disadvantage. When we tested, which was my first time with the mirror, I felt like all I wanted were spells that would generate as much as possible. The matchup was usually very slow until a big spell hit and then that player just took over the game. I think 1-2 FoW is correct to keep in.

[GerryT]

@ GerryT: So Darkness and I were playtesting a mirror the other day. We got into a discussion about siding out FoW in the mirror. He kept in two for our post-board games while I had mine sided out for most of them. He was able to either tempo me out or at least stop me from getting to far ahead in many games. I tried keeping two in at some point. It seemed to work out pretty good for me sometimes, but I just still wasn't sure whether it was good enough to keep MD since they seem like terrible top decks late game. I know your known for having a different opinion on when or when not side FoW out whereas many others just seem to side all of them out when playing against non-combo decks. I guess my question is do you keep any FoWs in the mirror or against any Jace deck? Also, is Maelstrom Pulse worth having in the deck for Jace mirrors despite the potential draw back post-board?

I typically don't keep in Force of Wills in the mirror and instead prioritize being ahead on board in order to attack their planeswalkers. I like Pulse because it's something you can dig for if you're very far behind. If you both have Jace, I don't think I'm concerned with Pulse being symmetrical. The only place I like FOW where others don't (I think) is against RUG.

[Kyle]

Not much of a tournament report, but two guys played discard-heavy Shardless BUG builds at our local last night and got 1st and 2nd. Meta included 12-Post, UWR Stoneblade (me), Esper Stoneblade, 12-Post, Zoo, and two players playing Affinity. Not all top-tier decks, but I think it says something about this archetype: it's got a lot of business spells to handle a lot of different competitors.

[Kyle]

I typically don't keep in Force of Wills in the mirror and instead prioritize being ahead on board in order to attack their planeswalkers. I like Pulse because it's something you can dig for if you're very far behind. If you both have Jace, I don't think I'm concerned with Pulse being symmetrical. The only place I like FOW where others don't (I think) is against RUG.

Sorry for the double-post, but wanted to comment on this. We had this same discussion last night and came to a similar conclusion - FoW just isn't good in the mirror, whereas pointed discard (i.e. loading up on Thoughtseizes) is so much more imperative.

[GerryT]

Sorry for the double-post, but wanted to comment on this. We had this same discussion last night and came to a similar conclusion - FoW just isn't good in the mirror, whereas pointed discard (i.e. loading up on Thoughtseizes) is so much more imperative.

FOW is likely better in the mirror than Thoughtseize, but both are poor. The matchup between any midrange blue deck is about board presence and being able to grind out long games. Both FOW and Thoughtseize are inefficient answers against a deck with redundant threats, and both are bad topdecks later. You are better off loading up on trumps and/or one-for-one answers.

[Dzra]

You are better off loading up on trumps and/or one-for-one answers.

I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen anyone try this yet, but as far as trumps for the Blue midranged and control MUs go, Vraska can be a serious house.

[Linqed]

Casting a 5 mana planeswalker is pretty hard in a 22-land deck though.

[Kyle]

Okay, I finally got around to "completing" the primer with up-to-date info on match-up strategy and some successful lists. If you are interested, I would love some constructive criticism on the Match-ups part. I know it's my personal strategy, but I think it's pretty good and I have had personal success with it. I went through the last 12 pages of posts to use as reference for the section. I'm hoping that now, instead of people saying "go read through the last few pages of the thread to read more on..." in answer to certain questions people can just say "read the primer."

And I'm very happy with making revisions and pulling strategies out of my suggestions if people want to input their 2 cents or think my advice just sucks. :tongue:

[Dzra]

Casting a 5 mana planeswalker is pretty hard in a 22-land deck though.

It's not so hard when you're running 4 Deathrites and get into a grindy MU.

[kingsey]

So I played Gerry's list last night for the first time against jund & stoneblade. All preboard. The deck is fun and draws a ton of cards, but I felt my only threats were goyf.

Are these bad match ups pre board?

I'm finally coming over from team America, but I felt underwhelmed. I really wanted to love this deck.

I loved the fact your brainstorms really count and you can set up some obnoxious stuff, but I wanted others input.

[Kyle]

So I played Gerry's list last night for the first time against jund & stoneblade. All preboard. The deck is fun and draws a ton of cards, but I felt my only threats were goyf.

Are these bad match ups pre board?

I'm finally coming over from team America, but I felt underwhelmed. I really wanted to love this deck.

I loved the fact your brainstorms really count and you can set up some obnoxious stuff, but I wanted others input.

Though 'goyf is your main beater, it's hardly your only threat. Specifically, Deathrite Shaman unanswered will deal 2 lifeloss to your opponent every turn, which, when combined with Hymning and Thoughtseizing them will add synergy to your graveyard dependent strategy.

Jund and Stoneblade aren't bad matchups preboard at all. Any match-up can be tough, but these two are very manageable.

Against Jund you want to prevent Punishing Fire or Dark Confidant getting online, save your Wastelands for Grove of the Burnwillows and Abrupt Decay for Bob. If they get a Sylvan Library out, get rid of it as soon as possible. This innocuous enchantment will allow them to tear you to ribbons. Their main disruption is discard, so use your Brainstorms reactively to save or set up your threats, and lastly, don't overvalue Jace.

I have regular success against Stoneblade, as they have no answers to Abrupt Decay and don't run enough counters to prevent your cascades. Proactive removal of Stoneforge Mystic is your primary goal, since Batterskull is public enemy #1. Then, Jace is your next big annoyance, which can be dealt with using Creeping Tar Pit.

Coming from Team America I can understand that you feel underwhelmed at first, as you're playing a more tempo-style deck and a lot of interaction, probably with Delver and Daze. You're used to a full disruption package in the form of Force of Will, Daze, Hymn, and Thoughtseize, and you're now mostly relying on discard. This deck's strategy is proactive hand control and reactive board control that is good mid- to late-game. But the sheer difficulty many decks have handling cascade is what makes this deck so powerful, not to mention the ability to "play Ancestral Recall" in Legacy. Drawing bajillions of cards is stupid good. Cascade is stupid good in a deck where you really don't mind casting your spells for free. Ancestral Vision, Hymn, Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay, Baleful Strix. Yeah, this deck plays difficult to counter high value 2-drops you get for 3 mana, and a 2/2 body alongside it.

[ShiftyKapree]

Okay, I finally got around to "completing" the primer with up-to-date info on match-up strategy and some successful lists. If you are interested, I would love some constructive criticism on the Match-ups part. I know it's my personal strategy, but I think it's pretty good and I have had personal success with it. I went through the last 12 pages of posts to use as reference for the section. I'm hoping that now, instead of people saying "go read through the last few pages of the thread to read more on..." in answer to certain questions people can just say "read the primer."

And I'm very happy with making revisions and pulling strategies out of my suggestions if people want to input their 2 cents or think my advice just sucks. :tongue:

Hey do you think for the matchups can you add what you board in and out against each matchup please. I just started playing the deck and would appreciate if you can give me advice on boarding for every matchup

[GrugalM]

I have been running GerryT's list for while now and have had decent success at a local level and his list did well for me at GP Vegas at both Side Events. (1st and 7th)


I am currently running this and loving it. This is basically based off of Leejay's spicy recommendation with Whipflares. Don't look too much into the sideboard besides the Whipflares.

I have been playtesting against Deathblade, UWR Delver, RUG Delver, Dark Maverick, and D&T for the pass 2 weeks and it has been wrecking.

Basically all fair decks....I know, I will expand the playtesting into Show and Tell, UW Miracales and TES in the next coming weeks.

Baleful Strix is such an incredible card, its weird I feel like I see the 2 Mainboard FoW more often now than from before when I ran 3. And I feel more comfortable using them in this build than the previous build.

Strix just gets there pinging for 1 and being able to kill anything.

And the deck is all in on the 4 Hymn to Tourach plan which is the one card that gets sided out the most but its still great mainboard because it puts your opponent in this awkward positioning of trying be more proactive with their board state instead of reactive and then it makes them more sensitive to being mana screwed because of the 4 wasteland package and Hymn hitting lands out of their hand.

Oh and did I mention how POWERFUL Whipflare is?! I'm loving it.


Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent

Spells:22
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Force of Will

Lands:22
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Whipflare
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Force of Will

[SansSerif]

Has anyone considered 2-3 copies of Ponder in our list? I have been testing it with mixed results - the additional caltrips help bring consistency to our deck and allow us to save brainstorm so we can setup a cascade into Visions. Ponder is also a great topdeck late game and has often helped me to find whichever card i need to closeout a match. The downsides are the occasional blind cascade into ponder and the slight loss in tempo in early turns while i am spending mana on caltrips instead of developing a board.

I have fit Ponders in by trimming single copies of some situational cards (Decay, Strix, planes walker) with the assumption that less copies are needed with the added searching power.

[Kyle]

Hey do you think for the matchups can you add what you board in and out against each matchup please. I just started playing the deck and would appreciate if you can give me advice on boarding for every matchup

@Shifty: I don't like giving card-per-card boarding strategy as it can sometimes mire you in a particular way of thinking, and your game situation will dictate what you actually need to board. Read the Sideboard Cards section in the primer, it's as descriptive as possible and and will tell you what sideboard cards to run. The match-up section will tell you what sideboard cards are helpful in particular situations.

As a general strategy, however, Force of Will is probably the first card to cut/board out against aggro or aggro-midrange decks, such as Maverick and Death & Taxes and for the most part any heavy control deck, in order to bring in discard and more spot removal.

Against non-permanent-based combo (ANT, High Tide) you probably don't need your Abrupt Decays, but to load up on Force of Wills and discard spells.

@SansSerif: Though cantrips/filtering is helpful, I just about never want to cascade into a Brainstorm, so adding more "Brainstorms" is definitely not the way I want to go. I will sometimes board out some Brainstorms (heresy, I know), against aggro and midrange decks, since I'd rather just load up on more business spells. Blind cascading into a filter spell like this (especially when tapped out), can spell your own doom.

[Wurst2000]

whats you're impression on liliana? i always found it rather underwhelming and it seemed to me that it was just not strong enough most of the time. i mean, sometimes you play it on turn 2 and it just dominates the game right from this spot but most of the time it plays right into that spell pierce that they have been holding forever or you just kill there worst creature you are outtempo'ed anyway. I think liliana is either extremly good or pretty bad and i actually want a card in that spot that is either good against combo or good against creature-based decks, depending on your local metagame, and not a card like liliana that tries to be both, but doesn't get the job done.

[Darkness]

whats you're impression on liliana? i always found it rather underwhelming and it seemed to me that it was just not strong enough most of the time. i mean, sometimes you play it on turn 2 and it just dominates the game right from this spot but most of the time it plays right into that spell pierce that they have been holding forever or you just kill there worst creature you are outtempo'ed anyway. I think liliana is either extremly good or pretty bad and i actually want a card in that spot that is either good against combo or good against creature-based decks, depending on your local metagame, and not a card like liliana that tries to be both, but doesn't get the job done.

I feel that Liliana Shines against heavy control, Fringe decks ( such as enchantress ) and slower Midrange Blue decks, that don't play L Souls. She is optimal when you have a relevant threat presences. Just like the article that GerryT wrote this week, when he was facing CVM and CVM was throwing all this discard without a threat, it was inevitable that GerryT would pull ahead because of the lack of pressure. Liliana is no different, you need a threat, or at least something to get in front of things attacking her, for her to work at her best.

[Kyle]

whats you're impression on liliana? i always found it rather underwhelming and it seemed to me that it was just not strong enough most of the time. i mean, sometimes you play it on turn 2 and it just dominates the game right from this spot but most of the time it plays right into that spell pierce that they have been holding forever or you just kill there worst creature you are outtempo'ed anyway. I think liliana is either extremly good or pretty bad and i actually want a card in that spot that is either good against combo or good against creature-based decks, depending on your local metagame, and not a card like liliana that tries to be both, but doesn't get the job done.

At first I wasn't the biggest fan of Liliana, and then I realized how much power she brings to the table as a 2-of in your 75. Simply put, she can establish a board control that can rocket you ahead. Your card advantage is so good that you're not afraid of discarding off her +1, not to mention her +1 doesn't target, so it can help in your combo match-ups where Leyline of Sanctity is in play.

She's particularly good against Miracles, ANT, Maverick (even though they swarm), and Sneak Attack/OmniTell, but is very vulnerable without protection.

[Wurst2000]

that's exactly what i was thinking, she is good when you are already ahead on board and this deck is really good at staying ahead even without liliana and she is good against decks like sneak'n'show, miracles which aren't tier 1 decks right now. I really like liliana as a card but i think that against the decks that are heavly played right not there are better cards to have!