[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[Erdvermampfa]

I have to say that I'm pretty comfortable with this deck being so popular because I find it quite shitty and enjoy every win I get from being paired against it. First of all, this deck lacks a sufficient amount of counter magic. It's really nice knowing that almost all of your spells will resolve because FoW is their only counter. Secondly, I feel that people overestimate Shardless Agent. With he exception of cascading into Ancestral Vision, he's basically a imaginary Trinisphere to all of your spells which would usually cost less (BS, TS, Hymn etc.). His 2/2-body is barely relevant which you should have noticed by now. These rare Ancestral Recalls you'll get from him aren't a justification to run him in my opinion.

[Lans89]

I have to say that I'm pretty comfortable with this deck being so popular because I find it quite shitty and enjoy every win I get from being paired against it. First of all, this deck lacks a sufficient amount of counter magic. It's really nice knowing that almost all of your spells will resolve because FoW is their only counter. Secondly, I feel that people overestimate Shardless Agent. With he exception of cascading into Ancestral Vision, he's basically a imaginary Trinisphere to all of your spells which would usually cost less (BS, TS, Hymn etc.). His 2/2-body is barely relevant which you should have noticed by now. These rare Ancestral Recalls you'll get from him aren't a justification to run him in my opinion.

These Ancestral Recalls are not 'rare' and the deck shows enough good performance!

[StefN]

I have to say that I'm pretty comfortable with this deck being so popular because I find it quite shitty and enjoy every win I get from being paired against it. First of all, this deck lacks a sufficient amount of counter magic. It's really nice knowing that almost all of your spells will resolve because FoW is their only counter. Secondly, I feel that people overestimate Shardless Agent. With he exception of cascading into Ancestral Vision, he's basically a imaginary Trinisphere to all of your spells which would usually cost less (BS, TS, Hymn etc.). His 2/2-body is barely relevant which you should have noticed by now. These rare Ancestral Recalls you'll get from him aren't a justification to run him in my opinion.


I'm speechless. Thx for the advice buddy, seems like we all have to change our Deck now. Also the comparison with the Trinisphere. I have Never seen it like that........
May I ask you One Last question before this thread get closed. Have you ever played One single Game with this Deck?

[Barbed Blightning]

I have to say that I'm pretty comfortable with this deck being so popular because I find it quite shitty and enjoy every win I get from being paired against it. First of all, this deck lacks a sufficient amount of counter magic. It's really nice knowing that almost all of your spells will resolve because FoW is their only counter. Secondly, I feel that people overestimate Shardless Agent. With he exception of cascading into Ancestral Vision, he's basically a imaginary Trinisphere to all of your spells which would usually cost less (BS, TS, Hymn etc.). His 2/2-body is barely relevant which you should have noticed by now. These rare Ancestral Recalls you'll get from him aren't a justification to run him in my opinion.

While there is something to be said for the variance that agent creates it's not much different than goblin ringleader or bbe, both of which are powerful engines in other decks. I don't play the deck for this reason (a semi-random chance for profit on a mana-ineffecient body) but I cannot deny it's good performance.

That said, let's avoid feeding the troll.

[Linqed]

that's exactly what i was thinking, she is good when you are already ahead on board and this deck is really good at staying ahead even without liliana and she is good against decks like sneak'n'show, miracles which aren't tier 1 decks right now. I really like liliana as a card but i think that against the decks that are heavly played right not there are better cards to have!

I don't think you understand. Having something to protect Liliana is not the same as being ahead on board. You can have a Goyf and not be ahead on board. Playing Liliana can turn the tide in your favour greatly. So no, she's not a winmore card as you describe it, but she's also not something you play and it'll automatically win you the game.

Having Liliana gives you outs to decks you normally wouldn't have and she's VERY good against most decks actually. The Edict she provides is an angle you normally don't have. Also, if Liliana is not good against the decks that are heavily played atm, what decks do you consider heavily played?

[Pherion]

Ok everyone, I'm really enjoying this list, but I can't quite decide on the best sideboard choice for SCG Baltimore this weekend. My big decision is between Umezawa's Jitte and Whipflare. Let's start with the main deck list, and then discuss!

Lands (22)
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

Spells (23)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
2 Whipflare
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Force of Will
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Baleful Strix
3 Flusterstorm

The changes from my last list are:

One Liliana of the Veil to the main, and one less Jace, the Mind Sculptor over all. I feel like 4 plansewalkers total is the number, any more and you draw them too early.
Moved 1 more Force of Will to the sideboard. They are just bad in fair match-ups, and there's so much in the board for combo, I feel game 1 is more of a discard reliant "kill-them-fast" kind of game anyway.
Added 3 Flusterstorm to the board. As was pointed out, we can't rely on discard with things like Leyline of Sanctity hanging around.

Ok, so it's either this list, or one with two Umezawa's Jitte in the board. In the other list I also remove the Badlands and replace it with the fourth Baleful Strix. This reduces the land count to 21, and frees up a slot in the board. I put in a Vendilion Clique to help sure up the combo match.

I'm leaning towards the Umezawa's Jittes because they:

Are a constant threat that hangs around
Force the opponent to answer them.
Shore up tough match-ups like mono-red burn, or anything else attacking your life total aggressively.

Finally, I like reducing the land count to 21. At 22 I was consistently Ancestral Visioning into two or three lands when I needed answers. I've never been at a loss for lands at 21, so I really don't see the need for 22.

Anyone have any comments on the land count, the sideboard, or anything else?

[Einherjer]

21 lands sounds very very suicidal to me! Though it is a Midrange(and probably no Controldeck) it plays a rather high curve, and no cascade-deck could ever win when being low on lands, while playing a fair game. You might get away with playing 21 lands against various combodecks (with get away I am talking about NOT getting screwd) but you cannot be seroius if you are telling me that you plan on winning against any ressource-attacking-strategies aka RUG / BUG / BURG / UWR? 21 Lands +4 Shaman might be manageable at some point, but it surely is not, when you are playing 2 of each, Wasteland AND Tar Pit. If you decide to play as few lands as 21 I'd cut 2 Tar Pit or 2 Wasteland for some stable manasources. Or just add a 22nd land in the end.

2 FoW MB / 2 FoW SB... hmm this sounds alright as long as FoW is only used to answer otherwise unanswerable cards. Two Force of Will won't really help for the combo-MU. I'd either play 3-4 MB and really have them in your opening when the opponent is going to kill you as soon as T1/2/3 or you play them all sideboard, accepting a bad MU g1 and letting your sideboard take the bloody revenge. A 2/2 split does nothing, if you ask me - or is at least inferior to both, 4/0 - 0/4.

Greetings

[Pherion]

You know, I didn't even realize it, but of all the match-ups I tested, none directly attacked my manabase. That's probably why I felt I was OK dropping a land. I've added it back in (a single swamp this time for the Jitte build). I also updated the list to put all 4 FOW back into the main deck. Does this look better? Do you have any opinion on Whipflare vs. Umezawa's Jitte?

Lands (22)
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

Spells (24)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Baleful Strix
3 Flusterstorm

[somethingdotdotdot]

Ive been running a 3/1 split of whipflare and jitte in the board for a while. From experience, whipflare is a much better answer versus all of he quicker swarm decks that quickly gain an insurmountable board advantage (goblins, maverick, elves) because it comes down turn 2-3 and just wrecks them in the developmental stages. The decks that have the small swarms tend to either be hate bears, where they want to get to a crucible of hate that you can't overcome; or ramp into something huge, sigarda or craterhoof. In either case, jitte is simply too slow to stop them before they develop their board and you have to hope that you dropped a goyf turn 2/3, mana to equip and they don't have a combat trick to simply negate jitte. Instead, jitte is better when he ground is stalled and you need to break the symmetry.

[Kyle]

...opinion on Whipflare vs. Umezawa's Jitte?


Hey Pherion, it's tough to compare Whipflare and Umezawa's Jitte because they provide very different functions.

Particularly, Whipflare is an awesome sweeper that is awesome to cascade into (most of the time). It is a very tempo-oriented card that's designed for quick and dirty mass removal. It can be absolutely devastating. Once it's cast, it's done and there is no staying power. Although that may not matter because it will clear the opponent's board allowing you an alpha strike.

Jitte, on the other hand is a great all-around tool with some great sustainability, providing lifegain, spot removal, and decent game closing capabilities. On the negative side, Jitte is a big waste when cascaded into when you're hoping for spot removal or discard, and there is no way to tutor for it. Not to mention it requires equipping it, and since this deck often taps out every turn, it devalues cascading into it even more. Jitte is very slow, unless you cast and equip in on turn 4, and is better for loooong games (or sometimes short games if you have such a good board state that your opponent concedes when Jitte hits the table).

Old Shardless BUG lists ran 2 in the SB and I found in my extensive early testing that they provided very little help, since the deck does very well on its own and already has a good consistency. Don't get me wrong, I think Jitte's awesomesauce, I just don't like it in this deck in my playstyle. I want instant gratification in the form of cascadable business spells, and I think Whipflare is the clear winner there.

Getting back to comparing the two: they provide completely different functions so it probably comes down to your playstyle. Do you like a early-mid length games with a tempo-based strategy? Go with Whipflare. Do you prefer a longer grindy match and have a utility spot to fill? Go with Jitte. I personally play more of a quick n' dirty gameplay style, so I like cards like Whipflare, Disfigure, and Massacre.

Then again, I did finally come around to fully appreciating Jace in the deck after lambasting him previously, so like anything I just had to use "card X" more to find out how good it is.

[Pherion]

somethingdotdotdot & Kyle, Thanks!

I'll have to do some more playtesting this week, but I see your point about Jitte being slow. In the games I've played, decay + discard + Lilly has usually been enough to keep the board under control till a Jitte could get online.

If I switch to Whipflare, is 2 enough? I don't really see a card I can pull from my board to fit in a 3rd one.

Thanks,
Frank

[Linqed]

2 FoW MB / 2 FoW SB... hmm this sounds alright as long as FoW is only used to answer otherwise unanswerable cards. Two Force of Will won't really help for the combo-MU. I'd either play 3-4 MB and really have them in your opening when the opponent is going to kill you as soon as T1/2/3 or you play them all sideboard, accepting a bad MU g1 and letting your sideboard take the bloody revenge. A 2/2 split does nothing, if you ask me - or is at least inferior to both, 4/0 - 0/4.


I 100% agree with this. I used to run 2 main 2 side but the matchup you want them is mostly against Combo, and 2 wasn't doing anything for me. They usually just cluttered my hand when I didn't need them and didn't show up when I did. I went for 3 main deck, as I feel they more reliably show up in your openers or drawing 1 lategame to hardcast isn't bad either.

Also, about Whipflare, it's not really a very good answer to Maverick, it doesn't really kill Mother of Runes or Knight of the Reliquary, or any other valuable creature they have when they have a Mom (giving it pro red prevents the damage).

[Pherion]

Also, about Whipflare, it's not really a very good answer to Maverick, it doesn't really kill Mother of Runes or Knight of the Reliquary, or any other valuable creature they have when they have a Mom (giving it pro red prevents the damage).

This is exactly why I included Golgari Charm in my sideboard as a 2 of. The -1/-1 mode is devastating for Maverick and Death & Taxes. It kills Mother of Runes, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Mangara of Corondor, Phyrexian Revoker, and Noble Hierarch (I'm sure there's more!). I feel like it's almost on par with Whipflare for whipping boards.

[Linqed]

This is exactly why I included Golgari Charm in my sideboard as a 2 of. The -1/-1 mode is devastating for Maverick and Death & Taxes. It kills Mother of Runes, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Mangara of Corondor, Phyrexian Revoker, and Noble Hierarch (I'm sure there's more!). I feel like it's almost on par with Whipflare for whipping boards.

I agree, I also don't like the fourth colour, but that's a personal preference.

[Pherion]

The card that scares me, and makes me think Whipflare might be worth taking is Mirran Crusader. We have no outs to this guy except Liliana of the Veil (and that only works if he's their only creature) or Jace, the Mind Sculptor (temporary solution)! Of course we can make them discard him before they get to 3 mana, but if a deck plays him they probably play 4 - he's just that good against us.

Unfortunately, this is one creature that Golgari Charm doesn't kill. It really depends on how many aggressive decks we think are going to show up with access to double white on turn 3...

[kangaxxpk]

hi,
i'm a newbie with this deck. In my meta there are a lot of S&T based decks, which are the best SB cards can i add? G2 and G3 there is Leyline of Sanctity as an addiction problem. Thanks!

Currently i would run:
2 FoW
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Leyline of the Void / Nihil SpellBomb
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 ThoughtSeize
2 Golgari Charm
2 free slots

any changes?

[BlackStarDeceiver]

hi,
i'm a newbie with this deck. In my meta there are a lot of S&T based decks, which are the best SB cards can i add? G2 and G3 there is Leyline of Sanctity as an addiction problem. Thanks!

Currently i would run:
2 FoW
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Leyline of the Void / Nihil SpellBomb
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 ThoughtSeize
2 Golgari Charm
2 free slots

any changes?

I am currently running nearly the same board, though i do have more Burn/fast Aggro, hence the Jittes.

2 Jitte
2 FoW
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil


Dedicated SnT Hate will be very narrow i guess, so you can eiter use Trinissphere/Ensnaring Bridge or Venser, which i do like quite a lot. This doesn't help against Omnitell in case they are holding Cunning Wish for Trickbind though.

Hilarious option -> Take Possession

[Pherion]

hi,
i'm a newbie with this deck. In my meta there are a lot of S&T based decks, which are the best SB cards can i add? G2 and G3 there is Leyline of Sanctity as an addiction problem. Thanks!

Currently i would run:
2 FoW
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Leyline of the Void / Nihil SpellBomb
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 ThoughtSeize
2 Golgari Charm
2 free slots

any changes?

Have you considered Flusterstorm? If they are on the Omniscience/Enter the Infinite plan, a single Flusterstorm can ruin their day!

Obviously bring in your forces, and your discard. Golgari Charm is nice as well. Responding to an Enter the Infinite by blowing up their Omniscience is a pretty beastly play.

For straight up SnT trying to put an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Griselbrand into play, you want your Lillianas as well. Their edict effect is your only way to get rid of these creatures should a SnT resolve. Also, Golgari Charm hits Sneak Attack.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

I have been following this deck for some time and finally managed to get my hands on all of the necessary cards. Earlier this week, I ran my list (posted below) at my local game store. I managed to go 2-0-1 splitting 1st and 2nd in the last round.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Disfigure
2 Baleful Strix
2 Golgari Charm
1 Force of Will


Round 1: Tom playing Jund Aggro Loam: 2-0

Game 1: I won the die roll and chose to go first. My opener felt solid against Aggro Loam... it had 3 lands, Deathrite, Visions, Agent, and FoW. I led of with fetch into Underground Sea into Deathrite. My opponent fetched out a Badlands and cast Raven's Crime. I discarded the FoW. I wanted access to the Agent and the Vision. On turn two I drew a second Agent, played a land, and suspended the Vision. I also attacked for 1 with Deathrite. My opponent's next turn was land into Double retrace Raven's Crime. I discarded the third land and an Agent, leaving my hand at only Agent. My turn three was tap Deathrite to remove one of his lands, tap my two lands and cast Agent. The cascade hit a Goyf. I had drawn another Agent. For some reason on my opponent's next turn he did not retrace the discard spell... choosing instead to tutor for Life from the Loam. I untapped drew a land, attacked for 8 (5 power Goyf, 2 off of Agent, and 1 with Deathrite) and then second main phased my land and Agent #2. This cascade hit a second Deathrite. My opponent was able to cast LftL and Abrupt Decay a Goyf... he still took 4 in the next combat and DRS activations sealed the deal.

Sideboarding: -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Liliana of the Veil; +3 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Force of Will; my thinking here was that discard is actively bad... although Hymn retains some value as my opponent was trying to empty my hand before getting any business rolling. This would mean Hymn could still hit win cons. Lili felt weak so I brought in grave hate to deal with LftL and Raven's Crime nonsense. I also brought in the 4th Force in effort to stop Burning Wishes for board wipes. It is possible the Flusterstorm may be a better choice.

game 2: I was on he draw with a pretty awesome opener. I had double Deathrite, Spellbomb, 3 lands, and a Decay. My opponent opened with Raven's Crime. I pitched a land. I drew a Vision for turn, cracked a fetch, found USea, and cast a Deathrite. My opponent played a land, bolted Deathrite, and retraced Raven's Crime. I discarded the Decay as it seemed the least relevant. I drew an Agent. I play my second land, cast Deathrite and Spellbomb. Leaving my hand as Agent and Vision. His next turn involved a Burning wish for a Perish. Knowing this I just suspended my Vision and removed his Raven's Crime with Deathrite, protecting my lone remaining card in hand, Agent. He sandbags the Perish as he wants to get more value than just a Deathrite, which I am totally fine with... as it allowed me to untap only facing down another land. I drew another land. Played land just passed back. After a turn or two of draw, land go, with Deathrite dealing some damage here and there. I refill my hand with Vision and have enough gas to just bury him.


Round 2: Paul playing Lands (2-1)

Game 1: I make an overly aggressive play Wastelanding his Tabernacle and then immeadiately remove it with Deathrite. He in response Intuitions finding LftL, Stage, and Dark Depths... I would have been able to come back from this had I put a Jace on top rather than second from the top of my Library. he had just enough time to make his GerryT token and kill me.

Sideboarding: -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Hymn, -1 Maelstrom Pulse; +3 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 FoW; My thought process here was to have grave hate to break up the LftL engine while also having a few more pieces of reactive magic to take out Intuition. I don't think any of the other spells really matter.

Game 2: I open with fetch, USea, Deathrite. He opens on a Tranquil Thicket. I am able to cast a turn 2 Agent, which hit an Abrupt Decay, which I choose not to cast. He plays his second land and casts LftL with no targets.... just getting it into the graveyard. I am able to snap of the LftL with Deathrite, after playing a Spellbomb. His next turn was Exploration into two lands. My next turn was land, Jace, Fateseal, attack for 3. Probably 10 or so turns later my opponent is facing down a Goyf, 2 Deathrites, Agent, and a Jace threatening to ultimate. He scoops.

Game 3: This one played out a little differently. I was able to take advantage of a land-light draw out of the lands deck using an Abrupt Decay on a Mox Diamond after wasting him on turn 2. This was after another turn 1 Deathrite. I got in a Goyf beat or two but he was able to tutor out a Maze of Ith and then a Glacial Chasm. After this I just began doming him with Deathrite and this was enough to get there.


Round 3: PJ with BUG Tempo (1-1-1)

We intentionally drew but played a few games as I wanted the practice. The match up seemed pretty even if we could get out of the early game. Getting to Deathrite +2 lands or 3 lands seemed to be the trick. I would say it might be wroth considering some specific sideboard cards if you think you are going to see this deck around your LGS.


Overall the deck felt great. I think there is some tweaking to be done to my sideboard for my local meta but otherwise I was very happy. I think with the prevalence of graveyard based decks (1 Aggro Loam, 1 Lands, 1 Reanimator, and 1 Jund [okay not really gy based but does have Punishing Fire]), a Surgical or two might be worth trying out. The main seemed very strong. I was able to walk away with $30 in store credit for my trouble which was combined with some previous credit to get a 2nd Liliana of the Veil. I think to fully optimize the list I will need to transition the two Marsh Flats to Verdant Catacombs 3-4. This was not an issue, but there is no reason to have a suboptimal fetching plan. Anyway thanks for reading and let me know what you guys think of the deck, sideboard, sideboarding... etc. I really would like to hear opinions of sideboard tech and specific substitutions... that is where I felt the least confident. Thanks again!

[Kyle]

hi,
i'm a newbie with this deck. In my meta there are a lot of S&T based decks, which are the best SB cards can i add? G2 and G3 there is Leyline of Sanctity as an addiction problem. Thanks!


In my experience, the two SB cards I think that are vital for SnT matchups are Venser, Shaper Savant and Notion Thief. Many times you have to be able to get a really bomb card out off their own SnT and those two can be blowouts. As much as I love Golgari Charm, it is often too late if they SnTed their Omniscience and they will have counters to prevent you from destroying it. At least they can't counter the Venser or Notion Thief off their own SnT.

[Pherion]

Greetings All!

I have been following this deck for some time and finally managed to get my hands on all of the necessary cards. Earlier this week, I ran my list (posted below) at my local game store. I managed to go 2-0-1 splitting 1st and 2nd in the last round.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Disfigure
2 Baleful Strix
2 Golgari Charm
1 Force of Will


Great report, was fun to read :)

You definitely want to maximize your black fetches. Full set of Polluted Delta and Verdant Catacombs is important if you ever want to run a singleton Swamp, or Badlands.

I'm curious why you chose Inquisition of Kozilek for your sideboard. I'm assuming these go in for the combo match, but the life from Thoughtseize doesn't matter in those games and you often want to hit something bigger than 3CMC. In addition, I usually put in a 3rd Thoughtseize for Stoneforge Mystic decks since it hits equipment after they tutor. Inquisition won't be able to hit Batterskull.

Did you find any uses for the Engineered Explosives? I feel like Whipflare, Golgari Charm and Disfigure are just better cards. Thoughts?

Cheers,
Frank

[Sturtzilla]

You definitely want to maximize your black fetches. Full set of Polluted Delta and Verdant Catacombs is important if you ever want to run a singleton Swamp, or Badlands.

That seems like a fair point. I do think the suite of Delta, Misty, and Verdant are where you want to be as they each can hit all of your duals and thereby fix your mana. I want to convert the Flats to Catacombs. Either when I get paid or rack up some more store credit it will happen.



I'm curious why you chose Inquisition of Kozilek for your sideboard. I'm assuming these go in for the combo match, but the life from Thoughtseize doesn't matter in those games and you often want to hit something bigger than 3CMC. In addition, I usually put in a 3rd Thoughtseize for Stoneforge Mystic decks since it hits equipment after they tutor. Inquisition won't be able to hit Batterskull.

I chose Inquisition of Kozilek as I only own 2 Thoughtseize. At ~$60-65 a piece I will probably back burner them unless my LGS meta shifts dramatically toward the combo end of the meta spectrum. Eventually they will become Thoughseizes. Using Thoughtseize to turn a SFM into a Squire does seem pretty good. I haven't yet had the chance to do that but will be trying it out next Blade mu I get.



Did you find any uses for the Engineered Explosives? I feel like Whipflare, Golgari Charm and Disfigure are just better cards. Thoughts?

Well it was a place holder as I only had one Liliana of the Veil. I have now corrected that portion of the deck's problems. I actually did not side it in at all... although I think it would have been pretty nice versus Affinity of which my meta has 1-2 pilots. Being able to answer Etched Champion is a pretty big deal. Liliana also can get that job done if you can pop off the rest of their guys. I guess I wanted a different sweeper type effect.

[Kyle]

@Sturtzilla: great performance, and good pile you put together.

I have found my favorite sweeper available to this deck to be Massacre, as it doesn't target and can be a blowout, particularly when you have Goyfs and/or Planeswalkers in play. It hits every other creature in your deck, but honestly I've found it to be a great insurance policy against Aggro and swarm, and particularly against anything white--Maverick, D&T, even Stoneblade. And it can't be cascaded into, so you don't run the risk of a crappy blind cascade.

Lastly, I like it more because it is a damn good answer to Mirran Crusader, which is starting to pop up a lot more.

I will concede that Golgari Charm has more overall utility, plus it won't kill your own DrShamans or Agents. It's a damn fine card.

And as for some sideboard tech I'm testing against Affinity (I have two players in my local meta). The cascadeable Hurkyl's recall. I mean, ouch. Hits almost every permanent they run.

[Tombstalker]

Greetings, I recently came into a set of natural order and ive been brainstorming where to best utilize them. This archtype is one of the better candidates that came to mind. Heres what im testing today, all thoughts welcome:

Shardless NO Pro

4 shardless agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 ancestral vision

4 Force of Will
3 thoughtseize

4 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Abrupt Decay

9 fetches
3 Trops
3 Sea
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest


2 dryad arbors makes cascading into GSZ actually desirable due to enabling the combo with protection from liliana effects. 4 FoW, 3 seize, 3 clique is damn decent protection for the combo, from verdict/terminus, and not to mention vs combo.

Im basically replacing JTMS and baleful strix with NO package including GSZ, clique in place of hymn and maxing the FoW count. Meanwhile the deck retains the majority of good cascade targets only missing hymn/strix but in return gets a 10/10 pro everything. Thoughts?

[Linqed]

Greetings, I recently came into a set of natural order and ive been brainstorming where to best utilize them. This archtype is one of the better candidates that came to mind. Heres what im testing today, all thoughts welcome:

Shardless NO Pro

4 shardless agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 ancestral vision

4 Force of Will
3 thoughtseize

4 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Abrupt Decay

9 fetches
3 Trops
3 Sea
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest


2 dryad arbors makes cascading into GSZ actually desirable due to enabling the combo with protection from liliana effects. 4 FoW, 3 seize, 3 clique is damn decent protection for the combo, from verdict/terminus, and not to mention vs combo.

Im basically replacing JTMS and baleful strix with NO package including GSZ, clique in place of hymn and maxing the FoW count. Meanwhile the deck retains the majority of good cascade targets only missing hymn/strix but in return gets a 10/10 pro everything. Thoughts?

This list seems atrocious, sorry. Only 2 Goyfs, why would you want 3 Clique? GSZ seems like an aweful card to play, even when 'you can cascade in it'. Dryad Arbor does nothing worthwhile. Strix and Agent already gave you Liliana protection. And the NO combo, I guess you can play it, but you probably shouldn't. You've taken too many elements from the deck and made them MUCH worse, for a yanky combo. Also the manabase is poor. No Tar Pit, no Wasteland, basics, only 9 fetch with DRS, too few duals to protect against Wasteland.

This deck lacks power and more importantly velocity and a consistent gameplan.

[Tombstalker]

This list seems atrocious, sorry. Only 2 Goyfs, why would you want 3 Clique? GSZ seems like an aweful card to play, even when 'you can cascade in it'. Dryad Arbor does nothing worthwhile. Strix and Agent already gave you Liliana protection. And the NO combo, I guess you can play it, but you probably shouldn't. You've taken too many elements from the deck and made them MUCH worse, for a yanky combo. Also the manabase is poor. No Tar Pit, no Wasteland, basics, only 9 fetch with DRS, too few duals to protect against Wasteland.

This deck lacks power and more importantly velocity and a consistent gameplan.
The list might need some tweaking, I noticed this in the last 30ish test games but it doesnt lack in power. Actually it lacks cantrips, or even a jace or two brought back.

Goyf count might need to go up to 3 but probably not 4, not with GSZ.

Speaking of zenith it finds DRS and goyf and arbor so the deck is always ramping. Always. Its the worst cascade target, cant help that, but dropping shardless t2 into GSZ-> arbor still enables a turn 3 combo with sac protection on board. And thats worst case.

3 clique because they are flying evasive beaters with instant speed disruption, shuffle progenitus back into the deck and together with thoughtseize makes 6 ways to disrupt my opponents hand.

Please elaborate how the manabase is poor. Also no wastelands is not an accident or a budget thing.

This deck wants to hit 4 mana by turn 3 all the time. Packing wasteland and manlands isnt what I wanted because Progenitus doesnt care about opposing jaces like the current iteration, neither does clique. Seriously if someone wants to try and waste this deck out its not going to be easy. It packs 27 ways to get mana including 2 basics.

[Asthereal]

This list seems atrocious, sorry. Only 2 Goyfs, why would you want 3 Clique? GSZ seems like an aweful card to play, even when 'you can cascade in it'. Dryad Arbor does nothing worthwhile. Strix and Agent already gave you Liliana protection. And the NO combo, I guess you can play it, but you probably shouldn't. You've taken too many elements from the deck and made them MUCH worse, for a yanky combo. Also the manabase is poor. No Tar Pit, no Wasteland, basics, only 9 fetch with DRS, too few duals to protect against Wasteland.

This deck lacks power and more importantly velocity and a consistent gameplan.
It is true that the list lacks focus. Where NO RUG and it's splash brothers are all UGx midrange decks that just have the additional NOPRO button, this deck seems to be all over the place. Pure control action with Agent into Vision for value but no other good control cards (planeswalkers, sweepers). Fast disruption but almost no fast clock to supplement it. I feel that it's probably suboptimal to play the Natural Order package AND the cascade plan in one list.

[Tombstalker]

It is true that the list lacks focus. Where NO RUG and it's splash brothers are all UGx midrange decks that just have the additional NOPRO button, this deck seems to be all over the place. Pure control action with Agent into Vision for value but no other good control cards planeswalkers, sweepers). Fast disruption but almost no fast clock to supplement it. I feel that it's probably suboptimal to play the Natural Order package AND the cascade plan in one list.
I can see that its unfocused, although the different packages were kinda what appealed to me. Maybe it can be focused with a little help?

The clock is actually on par with tempo strategies Ive used without quite the same level of disruption. It can consistently find goyfs DRS and clique. Thing is ive never piloted the original NO RUG, just played against it, so I dont have a good baseline of what the original felt like. Honestly I was actually expecting people to feel like clique + progenitus increased the decks clock, say as opposed to jace and strix.

In all my test games so far ive noted a few things that might shed some insight:

-it has great acceleration and good disruption.
-wasteland is not an issue. Ive been playing against reoccuring wastes without any sweat.
-progenitus ignores so many creature based plans and even overturns a losing board state against non combo.
-shardless brings quite a bit of value due to being UG for NO and if necessary FoW while also being a 2/2 bear.

-the deck stalls in its draws at times wishing for more cantrips or more jace (ive since added 2 jace back).
-only 4 abrupt decay are at times not quite enough making the deck want to resolve NO to recover rather than having NO as an option. If progenitus lands removal is not really an issue since the deck can protect itself with chump blockers via arbors/shardless while progenitus wins. Jace might help with the removal thing too, not enough games to know for sure yet.

So with that said, any ideas? idk maybe I should just go for more of an aggro strategy? It would involve dropping shardless and visions for something green including full goyfs, and likely some ponders. Just doesnt feel as powerful though.



Another idea is just a little less focus on the cascade mechanic but keeping it intact since shardless does bring quite a bit of value to the deck. This would allow for a little more removal more disruption and more goyf. Thoughts?

[Pherion]

So with that said, any ideas? idk maybe I should just go for more of an aggro strategy? It would involve dropping shardless and visions for something green including full goyfs, and likely some ponders. Just doesnt feel as powerful though.
You might as well play play BUG Delver at that point and throw in Tombstalker.

For SCG Baltimore this Sunday, I think I've settled on this list. But who knows I might change it tomorrow again LOL!

Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Disfigure
2 Baleful Strix
2 Golgari Charm
2 Whipflare
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
3 Flusterstorm

I've removed one of the Creeping Tar Pits for a Swamp, this stabilizes the mana base after the addition of the Badlands for the red splash. Only other changes are in the sideboard. I've settled on Whipflare and Golgari Charm for swarms. Disfigure is additional removal for mirror or agro. Also, no graveyard hate, as I've found Deathrite Shaman is more than enough if you resolve him T1.

I put together a brief sideboard plan just to give myself an idea if the sideboard was effective, and I like how it looks so far. I'll attach the spreadsheet since I don't feel like posting it all here. http://www.arolkay.com/MrAvengerPimpPics/Shardless%20BUG%2008-19-13%20(whipflare).xlsx

Comments and crit welcome!

[somethingdotdotdot]

So I thought the NO idea was interesting and I've been wanting to brew a NO Bug deck for a while. I threw together this list and started a lil bit of testing:

Creatures (13)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Progenitus

Spells (25)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Ancestral Vision
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Natural Order
3x Green Sun's Zenith

Lands (22)
2x Dryad Arbor
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
3x Wasteland

The deck is obviously super soft to combo game 1. I'm not really sure how well the deck can protect the NO, which poses a bit of a problem at times, but I think you only really want to be casting it versus the non-tempo matchups anyways.

I dont think visions or shardless can really come out because it gives the deck enough card advantage to negate the fundamental card disadvantage of both FOW and NO while also fueling both. I'm not sure about the mana base as I've sometimes been flooded while completely land screwed at other times. Regardless, this is an interesting way to take the deck and NO certainly makes some rough game 1's (Maverick, Jund) easier.

[Pherion]

So I thought the NO idea was interesting and I've been wanting to brew a NO Bug deck for a while. I threw together this list and started a lil bit of testing:

Creatures (13)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Progenitus

Spells (25)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Ancestral Vision
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Natural Order
3x Green Sun's Zenith

Lands (22)
2x Dryad Arbor
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
3x Wasteland

The deck is obviously super soft to combo game 1. I'm not really sure how well the deck can protect the NO, which poses a bit of a problem at times, but I think you only really want to be casting it versus the non-tempo match-ups anyways.

I don't think visions or shardless can really come out because it gives the deck enough card advantage to negate the fundamental card disadvantage of both FOW and NO while also fueling both. I'm not sure about the mana base as I've sometimes been flooded while completely land screwed at other times. Regardless, this is an interesting way to take the deck and NO certainly makes some rough game 1's (Maverick, Jund) easier.

I feel like if you want to run Natural Order and Green Sun's Zenith, then you need to be running the hate-bears (Gaddok Teeg, Scavenging Ooze, etc.) and you might as well run a better threat. Tarmogoyf off of a GSZ. At that point you've completely changed the nature of the deck. Shardless BUG is a control/mid-range deck. You've removed all of the control (counters/discard), and made it into a bad mid-range/agro/combo mash-up deck.

The inability to protect a Natural Order is really bad. Especially since the creature sac is part of the cost. Elves has this problem too, and sides into discard in order to ensure their important spells resolve. I'm not sure this deck can create an effective sideboard plan. What would you remove in a combo/control game for discard? How about FOW? Just looking at the list, the first thing I'd remove are the GSZs. They don't have any good targets, and are just there to enable NO.

Sorry guys, I just feel that the NO version your toying with is a completely differnt deck, and has lost the control concept that makes Shardless BUG so powerful

[Tombstalker]

I still feel BUG is the correct color choices and DRS/GSZ-> arbor is a powerful strategy for consistantly dropping bombs like liliana/clique/shardless turn 2 and jace/NO turn 3. Unfortunately there are a few problems with the supportive cast which I havent been able to work out yet. idk maybe its just because im used to tempo and combo so the deck doesnt feel as fluid by comparison.

Anyway thanks for the input guys, ill be moving on to continue testing NO elsewhere.

[Asthereal]

I still feel BUG is the correct color choices and DRS/GSZ-> arbor is a powerful strategy for consistantly dropping bombs like liliana/clique/shardless turn 2 and jace/NO turn 3. Unfortunately there are a few problems with the supportive cast which I havent been able to work out yet. idk maybe its just because im used to tempo and combo so the deck doesnt feel as fluid by comparison.

Anyway thanks for the input guys, ill be moving on to continue testing NO elsewhere.
The thing is NOPRO requires so many slots to work well, adding Agent+Vision just doesn't fit.
I've tried to make a list, but the least cards I got was 64 in the main...
Let's continue the discussion in the NO RUG thread and figure out a sort of optimal configuration there.

[lordofthepit]

I still feel BUG is the correct color choices and DRS/GSZ-> arbor is a powerful strategy for consistantly dropping bombs like liliana/clique/shardless turn 2 and jace/NO turn 3.

You may be aware of this, but I wanted to point out that Shardless cascading into GSZ is awful (X = 0) and GSZ for Shardless is just as bad (no Cascade trigger). If you're going to go NO BUG, I would just axe the Shardless Agents and play something with higher impact.

[mike1987]

Any advice on how to fight the mirror? I played 2 matches and lost both as the opponent is the first guy who resolved a suspended vision. I sided out all FOW for more discard like thoughtseize but I think a timely FOW to stop a vision might be very important as well.

[Zombie]

Round 5 out of 9, poor Marius loses Game 1 to not exiling the Infernal Brian Braun-Duin was forced to cast a turn early. Remember folks, an exiled Tutor a turn keeps the Tendrils away.

[Cire_dk]

Gratz to Timur finishing 4th in Baltimor. Is he on this forum as well? I would be interested to see his report.
I like the inclusion of 1 Top even though it means dropping a ancestral vision. . I wonder if 3 Lili and 3 Jace has been to much? I prefer 2/2 split myself.

[Pherion]

Any advice on how to fight the mirror? I played 2 matches and lost both as the opponent is the first guy who resolved a suspended vision. I sided out all FOW for more discard like thoughtseize but I think a timely FOW to stop a vision might be very important as well.

I've got some for you in this post :)

SCG Baltimore Tournament Report 34th / 284 players, 6/3 (26/16 in games)

This is my best finish at an open. Last time in DC I placed 36th with Esper Stoneblade. Here's the list I took this time around:

Lands (22)
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Creatures (14)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

Spells (24)
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Disfigure
2 Baleful Strix
2 Golgari Charm
2 Whipflare
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
3 Flusterstorm

Round 1 TES 2/0
G1: Opponent keeps a 0 lander with Gitaxian Probe and Lotus Petal into Ponder. He hits a land, but doesn't find enough gas. I Wasteland him once, and get a Tarmogoyf on board strengthened by his artifacts. Goyf beets for the win.

G2: I sided in 1x Liliana of the Veil, 1x Golgari Charm, 2x Thoguhtseize, 3x Flusterstorm, and 1x Hymn to Tourach. I took out 2x Baleful Strix, 4x Shardless Agent, and 2x Abrupt Decay. My opener saw Force of Will and Flusterstorm with a Deathrite Shaman, so I kept. I drew into a few discard spells while slowly eating at his life with Shaman. It comes down to him with 4 cards in hand, a Lotus Petal and Lion's Eye Diamond in play, and he casts a non-hellbent Infernal Tutor. I have two counters in hand, and figure that if he's going for protection it doesn't matter anyway, so I let it resolve. He get's a 2nd Rite of Flame. He then casts a 2nd Infernal Tutor, still no hellbent. At this point his hand is 2x Ritual, and an unknown card. I think for a bit and realize it has to be Empty the Warrens because he knows I have a Force that would stop any tutors. I let the tutor resolve, and he plays three rites into empty. I Flusterstorm, and he sacks all his artifact mana to pay for copies. Now the fun part: Golgari Charm! He scoops to that.

Round 2 Tezzerator 2/0
G1: I drop an Ancestral Vision on turn 1 and on turn 2, and his only real action is casting a Chalice of the Void on 1 and a chalice on 0. I think a lot of people have overestimated the effect of Chalice on this deck... it doesn't really do anything unless you hit it for 2. I had an abrupt decay in my opener, and EOT before my first Visions goes off I kill the Chalice on 0. After that he's just drown in Tarmogoyfs and Cascades.

G2: I swapped the main-deck Hymn to Tourachs for Thoughtseizes since I figured targeted discard is better to his his planeswalkers. He drops a Chalice of the Void off of Ancient Tomb on turn 1, and I Force of Will. My T1 is Deathrite Shaman, he drops another Chalice on 1 T2, and I don't care anymore! I Wasteland his Tomb, and he never gets past 1 mana >< ... not really a game of Magic: The Gathering unfortunately.

Round 3 12/14 Post 2/1
G1: I have no hope after Maelstrom Pulseing two Primeval Titans. With all his land, I'm just dead to any fatty top deck, and he's got a Sensei's Divining Top. Finally he finds Crop Rotation for Eye of Ugin and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn eats my head.

G2: I side in 2x Baleful Strix, 2x Thoughtseize, 1x Hymn to Tourach, 1x Liliana of the Veil. I took out 4x Abrupt Decay, 2x Shardless Agent. He t2's Show and Tell and I Force of Will. From there I drop some Tarmogoyfs with Force backup and he dies quickly with only a few lands in play.

G3: I keep my sideboard. I start out with t1 Thoughtseize, t2 Hymn to Tourach (which hits lands), t3 Liliana of the Veil to edict his Deathrite Shaman. He's stuck with 3 lands, and Thragtusk and Primeval Titan in hand. I find both of my Wastelands to keep him off mana, and a single Tarmogoyf wins it.

Round 4 Shardless BUG - Mirror 2/1
G1: We both suspend Ancestral Vision early, and the board gets stalled. He Force of Wills both of my Visions, and I can't stop his, so the game is over.

G2: I side in 1x Liliana of the Veil, 2x Baleful Strix, 2x Disfigure. I take out 2x Force of Will (because I like to be able to stop a visions), 2x Hymn to Tourach, 1x Thoughtseize. I start with a fetch, and he starts with a Deathrite Shaman. I crack EOT and Disfigure. I hit a t3 Liliana of the Veil, and he can't recover from there.

G3: Here's the important Mirror information This game was amazing. I had a slightly superior board with a Shardless Agent into Tarmogoyf. He has an Ancestral Vision suspended, a lonely Shardless Agent and a Creeping Tar Pit. I slam my Jace, the Mind Sculptor and fateseal myself. My goal here is to keep him attacking with Creeping Tar Pit while I expand my board state. Instead, he passes with four mana open. I brainstorm with my Jace, and he slams a Notion Thief. In my humble opinion, this card is bad in legacy... but hey. I respond and use the one card in my hand to Abrupt Decay his Agent. He draws 3 cards, and has a visions set to go off next turn. I realize that I have to kill him, and I have to do it fast. I play another Agent, and hit another Tarmogoyf. I swing in with my two available creatures, and of course he doesn't block (since i have two visions suspended as well and he wants to draw those too!). He spends his turn drawing more cards, then attacking with theif and tar pit to kill my jace. I swing the beats back at his face. And he drops to very low life. His turn, he plays two creatures and passes. I swing team, and he has to block with everything... Theif dies the turn before my visions goes off. From there he can't jam enough onto the board to make up for how far behind he is - even though he drew 7 cards in one turn.

Moral of the story - board state wins the mirror! Someone on Cockatrice told me this, and I can't agree more! It doesn't matter how many cards are in your hand, or how many you make your opponent discard. What matters is what's on the board. So for those looking for mirror advice - take out all your discard for more creatures and removal. You're going to attack your opponent to death, and that means you need more creatures than they have.

Round 5 RUG Delver 1/2 (Mark Rankin who placed 6th)
G1: A very close game with us both at very low life at the end. He eventually gets there with Delver of Secrets.

G2: I get an Ancestral Vision suspended on t1, and another on t3. He doesn't see enough creatures to deal with my removal, and I hit a Tarmogoyf to block Nimble Mongoose. After the two visions resolve, he can't handle the card advantage!

G3: Another very close game (hell I think these games, and the mirror games were the absolute best of the day). We end up in a dead board, we both are on 2-3 lands, and have both Wastelanded each other. We're sitting on removal/control and are waiting for top-deck threats. The game was very intense, and he finally draws a Life from the Loam. I thank god for my singleton Swamp which is in play, and being to plan my turns based on one less mana each turn. I manage to waste his Tropical Island to keep him off Loam for a turn or two. At the end he has a Goyf and a Delver. I have Baleful Strix and Disfigure with two lands out. All I need is for him to expand his board state instead of wastelanding me, and I'm in the game. He takes a fetch from his hand and hovers it over his discard pile (go! do it!), then think better and Wastelands my Underground Sea. I shake his hand, and we chat for a while. Great game, and my first loss of the day.

Round 6 Reanimator 0/2
G1: This is the match-up I didn't want to see. It's not that huge a portion of the metta, and I was hoping to doge it all day - so much for luck! G1, he has a t1 Grisslebrand to my perfectly reasonable - and fair - hand. I try to rush to a Liliana of the Veil, but he has a Force of Will.

G2: in - 3x Flusterstorm, 1x Liliana of the Veil, 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Baleful Strix. Out - 4x Shardless Agent, 2x Hymn to Tourach, 2x Abrupt Decay. My t1, he forces my Thoughtseize, which gets me really scared. He pitches an Iona, Shield of Emeria, and passes the turn. Draw a force, and have a Liliana of the Veil in hand. I know he's already pitched one force, and am hoping he either doesn't have the reanimate spell, or counter backup. On his turn, he Exhumes, and I force. He has a Misdirection, and the game is over (he named black).....

Round 7 Merfolk 2/0
G1: I can tell my opponent is inexperienced, and I feel bad when I see him cast a t3 Standstill while he has no Lords and I have a Tarmogoyf. I respond to the standstill by Abrupt Decaying one of his two dudes. He does draw go for a while, until he eventually has to break the Standstill. I draw the cards, and resolve an Ancestral Vision the next turn. He can't win from there.

G2: in - all my removal, - out planeswalkers and discard. He plays standstill much better this time, but this deck is just nuts. He gets to draw off of two standstills (both of which I break immediately because it's NEVER worth while sitting there when they have better board state.) Between Golgari Charm, Disfigure, Abrupt Decay, and Whipflare - it didn't matter how many cards he drew, and I won on the back of a single 7/8 Tarmogoyf.... biggest one I've ever had!

Round 8 Patriot Delver 1/2
G1: I kill off two Stoneforge Mystics, and he slams a third... I can't beat a Batterskull.

G2: all the removal comes in again, plansewalkers and discard out. I resolve an early Liliana of the Veil and then two Ancestral Visions. He can't keep up, and I grind him out.

G3: I played well this game, but he ends up with Delver, SFM and Geist of Saint Taft... I'm at 9, and have to clear his board or I'm dead. I Brainstorm into nothing, fetch and Brainstorm again - still nothing. Here's where Whipflare would have shined :(

Round 9 RUG Pyromancer 2/0
G1: This deck was funny... It played every cantrip available, and Young Pyromancer. I wasn't sure if I should laugh or not when my opponnent ragged when I Abrupt Decayed his Tarmogoyf to swing in lethal.

G2: He got a Young Pyromancer out and made a dude. Then I cascaded into Whipflare. He raged again .... Fun magic!


Conclusions
My MVPs for the day were Disfigure and Tarmogoyf. Disfigure kills EVERYTHING, so glad I fit it into the board. And of course Goyf beats for the win. My opponents were consistently amazed at how big he is - it's the artifact creatures that do it, make him a 5/6 on the regular.

The only card I'm not sure about is Whipflare, it seemed good when I got to use it, but I wonder if other cards wouldn't be better. Just have to test more!

I also didn't get to see the one match I was really scared of - Death and Taxes. I guess I was justified in being scared since it had two showings in the top 8! That's what the Whipflares were really for. Wish I'd have fought them - think I would have done OK :)

Over all it was a great day of Magic, and I had loads of fun making opponents salty when cascading into crazyness!

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Gratz to Timur finishing 4th in Baltimor. Is he on this forum as well? I would be interested to see his report.
I like the inclusion of 1 Top even though it means dropping a ancestral vision. . I wonder if 3 Lili and 3 Jace has been to much? I prefer 2/2 split myself.

Timur should be Zirath here on the Source, i think he wrote an TA/River Rock report when he Top 8'ed with it some time ago.

[jarvisyu]

Started 0-2 then won 7 in a row yesterday.

Got 17th (with Shardless).

I was going to board 2x Venser, Shaper Savant, but Venser was ($20) in the dealer booth, so I didn't feel like buying a second one. Due to the generosity of people, I managed to find one.

Amusing tidbits: losing r1 to Kenny Mayer (of Virginia) playing Zoo-Battle of Wits in 3 games.

Also went 7-2-1 in the Standard portion (losing r9 for my 2nd loss, basically my lose and out).

I plan on playing Shardless in DC again, with some minor changes, but a few notes: I do not understand lists with less than 22 lands. I think 22 is the bare minimum given your deck is fine with flooding to a certain degree, and I don't mind 23.

Gerry convinced me to cut my sideboarded Loam at the last minute, which I think he is right about.

[Cire_dk]

Well done Pherion and thanks for your great report.
Also gratz to jarvisyu on great result.

[jarvisyu]

minireport:
r1: lost to zoo battle of wits (1-2)
r2: lost to b/w with kjeldoran outpost/lingering souls/stoneforge mystic (0-2)
r3: won vs u/w/b fae-mystic (bitterblossom/sprite/stoneforge) (2-1)
r4: won vs b/g nic fit with natural order (he NOed into Terastodon g1 which i easily beat) (2-0)
r5: won vs a friend playing ANT with lim-dul's vault (he killed himself with ad nauseum in g2, and i sacked out g1 by drawing 3 wastelands) (2-0)
r6: won vs b/g discard deck (deathrite/goyf/heavy on the discard. Ancestral Vision obviously a MVP here) (2-0)
r7: won vs another friend playing ANT in 3 games (2-1)
r8: won vs a friend in the shardless mirror. Similarly to the old Caw-Blade mirrors in standard, board position matters a lot, since both of you have so much action vis Jaces / Ancestrals. Tar Pit is an all-star here if you can set up situations where you can attack with it safely. (2-1)
r9: won vs u/w/r miracles in 3 games. lost g1 probably due to a punt, g2 he mulled to 4, g3 my hand was absurdly good with not much time left on the clock, but i managed to ult lili, play a 2nd one, play venser and notion thief to earn the win. (2-1)

[Sturtzilla]

I have found my favorite sweeper available to this deck to be Massacre, as it doesn't target and can be a blowout, particularly when you have Goyfs and/or Planeswalkers in play. It hits every other creature in your deck, but honestly I've found it to be a great insurance policy against Aggro and swarm, and particularly against anything white--Maverick, D&T, even Stoneblade. And it can't be cascaded into, so you don't run the risk of a crappy blind cascade. Lastly, I like it more because it is a damn good answer to Mirran Crusader, which is starting to pop up a lot more.

I think you logic here is pretty solid. I have been siding with Golgari Charm as it kill fewer of our guys. However I can see the situations where the free cast and/or the extra -1/-1 would be awesome. I will have to think about it a little more paired with more testing. I think extra Lilianas can help versus the Mirran Crusader decks as well. I played a Zoo/Naya deck that played him post board at SCG Baltimore. I was able to just kill of his dudes and make him sac the Crusader with Lili. This is of course a lot more situational as it has to be their only dude. But at any rate that was the out I had to play to and it worked.



I will concede that Golgari Charm has more overall utility, plus it won't kill your own DrShamans or Agents. It's a damn fine card.

I was playing is SCG Baltimore and it served me very well. I got to 3-for-1 a NO Bant player (Joseph Herrera, the guy who won the Standard Open). Taking out 2 Noble Hierarchs and a Dryad Arbor leaving him stranded on two mana sources. That got me back into the game which I was about to turn around for the match win. It also let me clean up some Empty the Warrens tokens on an occasion or two.



And as for some sideboard tech I'm testing against Affinity (I have two players in my local meta). The cascadeable Hurkyl's recall. I mean, ouch. Hits almost every permanent they run.

I am a little curious about this. I am not totally sold on this. Affinity can essentially just redrop their hand aside from their bigger guys on the following turn. I do like the idea of EoTing it to make them discard things and leave the board clear for an attack. Wouldn't Pernicious Deed just be better? Sure we may lose a some guys and it might take an extra turn, but we can plan for it and X-for-1 them. This would essentially leave them in dopdeck mode. It also gets Etched Champion which is a big deal.


So I will write up a tournament report for the 9 rounds I played this past Sunday in Baltimore tonight or tomorrow. I ended up 6-3 (52nd overall out of a starting 298) losing in the last round to Nick Patnode, who ended up 16th overall (a little heartbreaking... not gonna lie). I lost to UR Delver, Hypergenesis, and TES. I was able to beat ANT, Mono Blue Tempo, NO Bant, Jund, Goblins, and Zoo/Naya Aggro. What I will say after playing a larger field with some higher level players, is that this deck is insane. I think it is favored against just about every fair match up, especially post board. I think the deck is lacking a little in the combo match up end of the spectrum. I think we need a more impactful plan for fighting the Storm and Show and Tell decks. I am interested to hear what you guys think on these topics. I have a few ideas which I will discuss in the report I will write.

[Pherion]

So I will write up a tournament report for the 9 rounds I played this past Sunday in Baltimore tonight or tomorrow. I ended up 6-3 (52nd overall out of a starting 298) losing in the last round to Nick Patnode, who ended up 16th overall (a little heartbreaking... not gonna lie). I lost to UR Delver, Hypergenesis, and TES. I was able to beat ANT, Mono Blue Tempo, NO Bant, Jund, Goblins, and Zoo/Naya Aggro. What I will say after playing a larger field with some higher level players, is that this deck is insane. I think it is favored against just about every fair match up, especially post board. I think the deck is lacking a little in the combo match up end of the spectrum. I think we need a more impactful plan for fighting the Storm and Show and Tell decks. I am interested to hear what you guys think on these topics. I have a few ideas which I will discuss in the report I will write.

I feel like the storm match is OK after sideboard, but I think I need to find a slot or two for graveyard hate. Reanimator is just bad! My build has to start w/ a T1 Deathrite and have Force back-up for their potential T1 reanimate. Then they can still have a counter of their own - and I'm still dead :(

I look forward to the discussion.

[Sturtzilla]

r9: won vs u/w/r miracles in 3 games. lost g1 probably due to a punt, g2 he mulled to 4, g3 my hand was absurdly good with not much time left on the clock, but i managed to ult lili, play a 2nd one, play venser and notion thief to earn the win. (2-1)

I was watching the end of your game three here and asked to see your board afterwards. You played very tight and the Venser bounce land, plus Lili, play after the Lili ultimate was sick! So brutal! Well played, sir.



I feel like the storm match is OK after sideboard, but I think I need to find a slot or two for graveyard hate. Reanimator is just bad! My build has to start w/ a T1 Deathrite and have Force back-up for their potential T1 reanimate. Then they can still have a counter of their own - and I'm still dead :(

Okay how do you sideboard for Storm games 2-3? I just feel like my plan isn't working. I was 1-1 versus Storm decks in the Open and 1-0 versus them in the Challenge the day prior. I would like to get more input to potentially tighten this up though.

I feel like reanimator should be fine. We have Deathrite, FoW, and Removal (assuming they don't get Inkwell or Sphinx). Post board Spellbomb does a lot to sure up the match. I have only played versus it once or twice but easily took the matches.

[Zirath]

Gratz to Timur finishing 4th in Baltimor. Is he on this forum as well? I would be interested to see his report.
I like the inclusion of 1 Top even though it means dropping a ancestral vision. . I wonder if 3 Lili and 3 Jace has been to much? I prefer 2/2 split myself.

Yes I'm Timur Babakol. I wrote a report for BUG Delver/TA/River Rock when I topped at SCG Philly. I'm planning on writing a tournament report at some point but I'll give some info about my deck real quick.

First off, I loved my list. Every card perform exquisitely. I started from Lejay's list, which is very planeswalker heavy and tweaked some numbers here and there.

First, the heavy number of walkers was great. This is not a blue deck, it is a rock deck. It plays blue cards but it is heavily a Rock style strategy. In addition, the spot removal you have access to is either overpriced (Pulse) or too narrow (Dismember). This makes Liliana a very good choice because of how flexible she is in usage and the many facets in which she can operate. 3 Jace may have been too much but I'm not sure. Jace was very good all day, either buying me time or getting me miles ahead.

The Top was awesome. The decision came about in this way: during the drive down, we were discussing Sylvan Library and what decks use it well. I personally dislike Library because it is a winmore card in many decks. There are a few decks where it is good but those are primarily Loam decks. In almost any other deck, it is a horrible top deck. Jund is an example of this for me: most games with Jund get kind of grindy and you have a lot of unused mana. This is where Sensei's Divining Top becomes very important. My driver posited that Library is really good against combo decks where your life total doesn't matter but honestly if you spend turn 2 casting a Library, you probably aren't going to be doing much. If you cast it after that it loses its impact. He saw my reasoning for this. He made a realization: I should be playing 1 Top instead of the 4th Ancestral Visions. Visions can be insane but there are many games where you spend turns suspending it and then do nothing for quite a while (I won a mirror because this is what my opponent did). Even against the combo deck, Ancestral tend to not be a card you want in your hand. So we decided that slot should be Top to help with manipulation but also smooth out early game plays.

I was not disappointed by it. The one match where my top shined was against Storm where I used it to fix my draws on a 1 lander so I could lead with Hymn into Liliana of the Veil to shut him down. Otherwise, I don't particularly remember Top doing much or even really drawing it. It was never an issue and I am very happy I ran it.

The last piece is the discard spells. A lot of people commented about me playing no Thoughtseize main. I'm not sure if that was right or wrong, but Hymn was perfectly fine for me all day. With the extra walkers, I feel that I didn't as badly need the targeted discard.

[Pherion]

Okay how do you sideboard for Storm games 2-3? I just feel like my plan isn't working. I was 1-1 versus Storm decks in the Open and 1-0 versus them in the Challenge the day prior. I would like to get more input to potentially tighten this up though.

I feel like reanimator should be fine. We have Deathrite, FoW, and Removal (assuming they don't get Inkwell or Sphinx). Post board Spellbomb does a lot to sure up the match. I have only played versus it once or twice but easily took the matches.

For my list posted earlyier:

Out
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
2 Abrupt Decay

In
3 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Golgari Charm

I could argue to take out the Jace, the Mind Scuptors as well, but I feel the plansewalkers are just a fantastic way to lock down TES or ANT after you've ripped their hand apart. The biggest thing that ensured my victory to TES was Deathrite Shaman though. In game 1, my deathrite ate all of the tutors he cast or got discarded/countered. I've played TES enough to know that during that game he had a clear shot at Past in Flames, but without access to another Tutor in the graveyard, the plan was shot.


With regards to reanimator. The only removal we really have is Liliana of the Veil and Maelstrom Pulse. Abrupt Decay only hits Animate Dead, so we're better off trying to stop the combo in the first place. They just have a better counter suite than we do.


The Top was awesome.

....

The last piece is the discard spells. A lot of people commented about me playing no Thoughtseize main. I'm not sure if that was right or wrong, but Hymn was perfectly fine for me all day. With the extra walkers, I feel that I didn't as badly need the targeted discard.

I'd really like to try out the Sensei's Divining Top, and probably will add it to my list in upcoming testing. On discard spell. I feel that having access to 4 Thoughtseize postboard was a key factor in some of my match-ups. Though I did miss sideboard a bit in my Patriot Delver match. I took them out because I thought it would be a problem with the 2 life, but then got beat down by Stoneforge Mystics and could have discarded their equipment.

[Kyle]

Yes I'm Timur Babakol. I wrote a report for BUG Delver/TA/River Rock when I topped at SCG Philly. I'm planning on writing a tournament report at some point but I'll give some info about my deck real quick.


Great performance Timur, I'm really looking forward to seeing your tourney report!

I'm not personally a fan of Top in this deck as it taps out a lot each turn, but I can see where it can be valuable. I think that lists that choose to play Top should play 2 of them to capitalize on its ability to smooth out draws and improve card quality. Of course you run into the possibility of cascading into one when you really don't want it, but it's marginally better than blind cascading into Brainstorm because it sticks around and can be the "gift that keeps on giving."

In regards to over-suspending Ancestral Vision, I agree it can really bite you in the ass.

I'm going to be playing in SCG Los Angeles in November, so I have much more testing to do if imma play Shardless BUG, but it's competing heavily with Miracles as my deck choice. I'll try your approach with Top; see how it works out.

[Zirath]

Great performance Timur, I'm really looking forward to seeing your tourney report!

I'm not personally a fan of Top in this deck as it taps out a lot each turn, but I can see where it can be valuable. I think that lists that choose to play Top should play 2 of them to capitalize on its ability to smooth out draws and improve card quality. Of course you run into the possibility of cascading into one when you really don't want it, but it's marginally better than blind cascading into Brainstorm because it sticks around and can be the "gift that keeps on giving."

In regards to over-suspending Ancestral Vision, I agree it can really bite you in the ass.

I'm going to be playing in SCG Los Angeles in November, so I have much more testing to do if imma play Shardless BUG, but it's competing heavily with Miracles as my deck choice. I'll try your approach with Top; see how it works out.

Top worked well for me. Because there was only 1, it was pretty easy for me to get rid of it with Brainstorm and Jace. It always was the same as Ancestral Vision for me except there were a few games where I won because I got to manipulate my deck for 2 turns. It also increases the amount of things to do in the first few turns of the game.

[Sturtzilla]

SCG Baltimore Tournament Report 8/24-25/2013

As usual I played only the Legacy Challenge which SCG has renamed the “Legacy Open Trial.” They had also restructured the prize payout as follows:

4-0-0: SCG Open Trial Play Mat and choice of 10 Boosters or Free Entry to an Open
3-0-1: SCG Open Trial Play Mat and 8 Boosters
3-1-0: 6 Boosters
2-2-0: 1 Booster

I guess this incentivizes more playing and less splitting. So I signed up for the Open Trial which cost me $10. I was feeling pretty good after testing my Shardless BUG build at locals for a few weeks. After watching the other guys in my group play Standard for hours and hours the pairings for the Trial went up. And wouldn’t you know it, I was the lucky guy who got the round 1 Bye… definition of irony.

The Deck
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Baleful Strix
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Force of Will

Round 1: Bye

Round 2: Omniscience Combo: (2-1-0)

Round 3: ANT (2-1-0); in game one dude killed me before I even played a land. Had I known he was on storm, I would have shipped the opener. But with no info on the opposing deck my hand was solid. I managed to beat him in game three on the following mulligan to 4 cards: Fetchland, Deathrite, Flusterstorm, and FoW. My draw steps were Brainstorm, Land, Shardless Agent. He was pretty salty... like Lot's wife from the Bible salty.

Round 4 Dredge: (2-1-0); This guy mulliganed to 4 in game one and conceded to a turn two Hymn to Tourach. He got me in game two as I wasn’t sure how to sideboard going into game two (he scooped without showing me what the Hymn had hit). But in game three I had double Deathrite and Spellbomb to keep his graveyard in check... he actually just started casting his creatures.

So I 4-0ed the Open Trial and chose to take the Play Mat and the Free Entry to the Open. What am I going to do with 10 packs of Gatecrash or M14 anyway? Open them? Seems like bad value when you could just save actual $40.

After seeing so much combo in the side event, I decided to add a 3rd Flusterstorm to my sideboard over an Inqusition of Kozilek. It probably turns out that both of those cards should be in the sideboard to fight combo but we can discuss that later. And yes, the IoK should probably be a Thoughtseize… I have remedied that problem along with the two Marsh Flats and they are now Catacombs.

So with only that one tweak, I was ready for the 284 player, 9 round Legacy Open.


Round 1: Lucas Adams with UR Delver; (0-2-0)

Game 1: I succumb to a draw of Goblin Guide, into naturally flipping delver and Grim Lavamancer. I feel that this is an easy draw to beat if you can draw removal. My Abrupt Decays had forsaken me for this game and as I would soon find out the next game as well.

Sideboarding: -1 Ancestral Vision, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Hymn to Tourach, -2 Shardless Agent, -3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor; +3 Flusterstorm, +2 Disfigure; +2 Baleful Strix; +2 Golgari Charm +1 Liliana. Here I am overloading on removal for all of his guys and counter magic to stop the potential Price of Progress.

Game 2: My turn 1 Deathrite get countered by a FoW. I am okay with this as I have a few more lands. My opponent casts a Delver which I let resolve. I Brainstorm on my turn, shuffle away some lands with a fetch, and suspend an Ancestral Vision. I feel decent about my position although my only removal in had at this point is a Pulse. His next turn is cantrip and Grim. I manage to survive a few turn Brainstorming and Resolving an Ancestral… I was not able to find removal to take out either guy. I ended up dying to Grim activations. I think this one should have been winnable but the cards didn’t come together well.


Round 2: Matt Szabo with ANT; (2-0-0)

Game 1: I wasn’t sure what my opponent was on… I have the decision to turn one Thoughtseize or suspend Ancestral. I chose the former and was able to take his tutor… leaving him with rituals and cantrips but no business. He spends the next few turns cantripping, while I make a Deathrite and Baleful Strix. He on turn 3, goes off Empty the Warrens route for 10 goblins. I have two blockers and a Shardless Agent in my hand, as well as a Brainstorm and fetchland, while still at 17 life. I Brainstorm and my second card off of the Brainstorm was the 1-of Maelstrom Pulse. I play a fetch, crack it, pulse his dudes, and attack for 2. The following turn I Shardless into a Goyf and that was about all she wrote.

Sideboarding: -1 Ancestral Vision, -4 Shardless Agent, -2 Abrupt Decay, -3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor; +2 Nihil Spellbomb, +3 Flusterstorm, +1 Hymn to Tourach, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Lilana, +1 FoW. My logic here was to load up on discard and counter magic. Also I changed some of the removal package to take out Goblin tokens and/or Xantid Swarm if he decided to bring those it. Finally, there are some Spellbombs as a way to turn off the Past in Flames combo route. Deathrite already makes this pretty hard for them, but having a little more insurance can help.

Game 2: My opener has Flusterstorm, Deathrite, and Double Hymn with 3 lands. He either goes off on turn one-two with Silence or is just going to get torn apart. He probes me and then tanks for about 5 minutes. He then passes to me. I play a fetch and pass back to him. He cantrips and must not have hit business so he plays out a few mana artifact but cannot combo right into the Flusterstorm. I fetch and play a second land. Hymning away a cantrip and a tutor. He draws for turn, cantrips and plays land. I cast Hymn leaving him with not hand and cast Deathrite. It felt safe to tappout with him having no cards in hand. He finds no gas and I am able to add a Goyf to the board and begin the beats and Deathrite exiling. He succumbs to this a few turns later.


Round 3: Jim Scharr with Hypergenesis; (1-2-0)
Game 1: I knew what Jim was playing as he is a friend of a friend and we had compared decks and sideboards earlier that day. He won the die roll and was able to completely combo out on the second turn with Misdirection back up for my FoW. It is worth mentioning that his list is a hybrid of a traditional Hypergenesis list with the Omni Show combo built in as well.

Sideboarding: +3 Flusterstorm, +1 Hymn, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Lilana of the Veil, +1 FoW; --4 Abrupt Decay, -4 Shardless Agent. By removing the slow threat of Shardless Agent and Decay (which hit nothing in his deck) we are able to add more discard and counters to favorably interact with his combo.
Game 2: I am on the play this game and have a decent hand with Flusterstorm, Deathrite, and FoW. That all turns out to be awesome, but it was the Wasteland taking out his turn one dual land that really won the game. I played fetch go. He played a dual and passed. I wasted him off of the dual and cast the Deathrite, assuming that since he couldn’t go off the previous turn that would still be the case (plus we still have FoW and blue card). He played an island and passed back. He didn’t hit a land for a number turns… during which I was able to cast a Goyf with Flusterstorm and FoW back up. Deathrite removed some spells and attacked alongside the Lhurgoyf. These guys killed him before he could find enough land to assemble the combo.

Game 3: My hand at 7-5 cards have no discard and not counter magic. My 4 card hand is Fetch Deathrite, Flusterstorm, and FoW, which at 4 against combo is about as good as it is going to get. He doesn’t go for it on turn one and I draw a Brainstorm. I lead Fetch and pass. He attempts to go off on turn two, playing a second land, removing a spirit guide, and casting Violent Outburst. As expected he cascades into [/cards]Hypergenesis[/cards]. This cards earns a FoW and Brainstorm from my already taxed hand. He Misdirected the FoW to his Misdirection, removing a Shardless Agent. I let the stack clear down to the Hypergenesis, then Flusterstormed the Hypergenesis. This resolves, temporarily giving me a reprieve. I draw a Brainstorm for turn and pass back. He must have hit something because his next turn was Show and Tell into Omniscience followed by Shardless Agent. We were fairly close on 4 cards but couldn’t quite seal the deal. I guess it could have been correct to cast the Brainstorm, but then I would have needed to hit land plus Flusterstorm or FoW plus blue card. Neither of which turn out to be on top of my deck.


Round 4: Manny Naputi with Zoo/Naya Aggro; (2-0-0)

Game 1: Manny was on the Naya/Zoo Blitz deck that uses Burning-Tree Emissary to generate an overwhelming board very quickly. I won the die roll, chose to play first, fetched and cast a Deathrite. He led with fetch, into Taiga, into Goblin Guide, which for those of you that have forgotten about this card, enters the battlefield attacking. I took the two dropping to 17. I fetched again (16) and cast a Hymn, knowing that I could Braintorm during his turn to get some value off of the Goblin Guide. I hit Burning-Tree Emisary and a Lightning Bolt. I passed back. He played a fetch, attacked with the Guide, I Brainstormed putting back land, and drawing it due to the trigger. I took the 2, now down to 14. I had found an Decay on the Brainstorm which would easily dispatch the Goyf. I played my bonus land, cast a Goyf, and passed back with fetch + Deathrite for the upcoming combat blowout. My opponent played a land and attacked. I blocked the Goblin with my Goyf, unfortunately not drawing another land, and Decayed the Goyf before it could get at my quickly dwindling life total. The Decay cost me another point of life with the fetch, now at 13. He had no following play and passed. I attacked with the Goyf leaving the Deathrite up for life gain/loss purposes. I then Shardless Agented into another Deathrite. My opponent drew his card, thought for a minute or two, and then scooped up his cards.

Sideboarding: -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Jace, -3 FoW; +2 Disfigure, +2 Baleful Strix, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Lilana. We are just loading up on removal here… also the regenerate mode of charm could be useful

Game 2: I don’t remember specifically what this hand consisted of… but it was 3 lands, a Liliana, three additional pieces of removal. So I kept. I guess my opponent kept a weak hand as well… because he had no play until turn 3, which set essentially the tone for the rest of the game, as he cast a Mirran Crusader. This, as you can guess, is comically bad. My turn three is Lili, forcing him to sacrifice the very nearly Pro-Sharless BUG dude. He then has a Tarmogoyf which he must have either drawn that turn or the turn before. I have the Decay for it on my turn and a forced discard from Lili begins the hand attrition game. A few turns later he only has lands to a Lili at 6+, a Goyf, and Deathrite. I manage to win the game with the only damage dealt to me being from two of my own fetch land activations, almost a flawless victory.


Round 5: Robert Buceteri (this last name may be misspelled; my apologies my notes for this round were a little messy) with Mono Blue Tempo; (2-0-0)

Game 1: I mulligan to 6 as my 7 was 5 lands… keep a reasonable hand with Deathrite and some removal. When my opponent goes, Island, go, I am a little confused. I am not sure what I am playing against, so we without a better option fetch into Underground Sea to cast Deathrite. On his next turn, he plays another land and a lotus petal… and I am pretty sure that I am just going to be dead to some sort of Storm. He then casts Could of Faeries and untaps his lands and passes back to me. At this point I am super confused as to what is happening. So I play a land and pass back with the ability to Decay or Deathrite if necessary. He attacks with the Faeries, unable to block I concede that I am likely taking 1 damage (oh no!), he then Ninjitsus in a Mistblade Shinobi. Are you fucking kidding me? A Mistblade Shinobi? Ninjitsu? Is this even really happening? I consider my options for a minute, I have access to more land so the tempo advantage doesn’t seem too terrible, so I take the 1 damage and allow the bounce to occur. He replays the Cloud, untapping his lands, presumably to be able to counter things. I play a land, and recast Deathrite. It resolved and would now be able to block the pesky Shinobi (still… Mistblade Fucking Shinobi, really?). I still have mana up to Decay if necessary. He attacks again with the Cloud… now knowing where this might be going, I Decay those silly Faeries, cutting off his ability to cheat another guy into play on the cheap. My next turn involved Shardless Agent into Goyf… this pretty much ended the game.

Sideboarding: -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -3 FoW, -3 Jace; +2 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Baleful Strix, +1 Lili. More removal… at lower converted mana costs to be able to stop the ninjitsu shenanigans.

Game 2: My opener is double Deathrite, 3 lands, Disfigure, and Decay. He leads off with Island into Ornithopter. I draw a Deathrite for turn… triple Deathrite is a pretty fast clock, presuming that there are enough spells to fuel all three. I lead with fetch, Underground Sea, Deathrite Shaman. The Deathrite earns a FoW and an exiled Snapcaster Mage. Well knowing the rest of my hand that is pretty awesome. My opponent draws and must have kept a one lander as he doesn’t play a land or attack. I untap, play a fetch, cast Deathrite #2, which my opponent looks less than thrilled about and pass leaving the fetch up for a potential Disfigure. My opponent plays a second land but still does not attack, I decide here that is it time to get more aggressive and Disfigure his Thopter at EOT. I then play the third land cast a Deathrite, leaving Deathrite up for life loss purposes. I drain my opponent by removing his FoW at the EOT. Shardless Agent joins the party bringing along his good old buddy Tarmogoyf. My opponent now on the back foot begins casting Ninjitsu guys just block and stay alive. This lasts a turn or two before the inevitable occurs.


Round 6: Joseph Herrera with NO Bant; (2-1-0)

Game 1: This was easily the best match of the day. Games 1 and 2 were absolutely awesome as were each came back from an almost unwinnable position to win the game. I win the die roll and choose to play. I Thoughseize him on turn one seeing the following six cards: Forest, Noble Hierarch, Green Sun’s Zenith, Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, and Natural Order. There are two ways to play this and with the removal in my hand and lack of counter magic I think the right play is to try to keep him off of mana. I take the Noble banking on being able to kill all of his creatures. He plays Forest and cast the GSZ for a Dryad Arbor. Little did I know he just drew a land and would draw another. This game ends very quickly as he is still able to cast Natural Order on turn 3 or 4 for Progenitus.

Sideboarding: -3 Jace, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Hymn -2 Shardless Agent; +2 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Lili, +3 Flusterstorm, +1 FoW. Here we want ways to kill his dudes to make Natural Order dead in addition to counters to keep it from resolving.

Game 2: My opener has one fetchland, but has Brainstorm, Ancestral, Golgari Charm. I keep, hoping to dodge a Wasteland for a turn or two. I play the fetch and pass. He plays a fetch and passes. I crack my fetch, find USea and Brainstorm. I find no land… now I am just dead. I untap, draw my first of two Brainstorm-locked cards, and suspend Ancestral. My opponent draws, fetches a Trop, casts Brainstorm (which I could have FoWed) but chose not to, as I want to keep this for Natural Order if possible. He finds the Wasteland on the Brainstorm and wastes me off lands with at least one dead draw to come. I tick down my Visions, draw my dead card, and pass back. He plays a Fetch and casts a Noble, and passes. I remove another counter from Visions, draw a fetch, play it and pass. My opponent fetches EOT for a Dryad Arbor. He untaps, draws, plays a fetch, plays a second Noble and attacks me for 3. I take the hit am hoping that I hit a land to be able to cast the Charm to level the playing field. I tick down the Visions, now at one counter. Can we survive for another turn? I draw a second fetch land. I double fetch, finding USea and Bayou on as to ensure being able to cast Lili if I draw her off of the Visions. I cast the Charm for the -1/-1 mode. Joe is without counters and I get to three of his guys… essentially resetting the game. He plays land go. I am able to draw my 3 cards and my normal draw which finds me a third land and a Lili. I play the Lili and begin ticking her up to his empty board and nearly empty hand. I manage to tick Lili up and down for the rest of the game to keep him off the board.

Game 3: I opener is solid with 3 land, Deathrite, Flusterstorm, Lili, and a Decay. I play a Deathrite to match his Noble. I think he Brainstormed and fetched on his next turn. I make a turn two Lili and force him to sacrifice his Noble. He then casts a Goyf. I untap, tick Lili up, discard , land, Decay the Goyf and attack with the Noble for one. I am not sure the exact order of the next few turns but I cast a Goyf which got StPed, continued to tick Lili up and down just wrecking his hand and board, until finally an Agent shows up convincing a Goyf to join the fray (or lack thereof). The game ended a combat or two later. Overall awesome match! Thanks for the great games Joe.


Round 7: Danny Goldstein with Goblins; (2-0-0)

Game 1: My opponent showed up to the match 3 minutes late without a judge’s approval. So he was given a game loss. We went into game 2 with no board and him on the play. He played a mountain and a turn 1 Aether Vial. I guess that I am playing against Goblins. I fetch and play a Deathrite to have a blocker for the inevitable Goblin Lackey. My opponent ticks up his Vial, plays Mountain number two and cast Goblin Piledriver. I consider casting a FoW but I have a Goyf in hand, so I let it resolve. I now realize that to play around a cycled Gempalm Incinerator on my opponent’s next turn, I need more card types in the yards. So I make the concession of taking some damage and cast a Hymn which hit Ringleader and a Siege-Gang. He vials in a Goblin Lackey at EOT, ticks up his vial to 2, draws, misses a land drop, plays a second Piledriver, I counter this as I want my next turn of Goyf and Strix to essentially seal the deal. I cast both guys. Now with 2 blockers and some interaction in hand I feel pretty safe. He vials in a Piledriver which makes me a bit nervous. He misses on land again and casts Stingscourger, bouncing my Goyf. This presents an attack for 10 with the drawback of losing the Lackey, which isn’t too bad as he is Hellbent. He attacks; I block the Lackey and trade with the Strix and take 10 going down to a single digit life total. I am a little nervous but am confident that I can still recover as he is not going to be able to keep the Stingscourger around when only on 2 land. I find and abrupt Decay and am able to play my fourth land, Tarmogoyf with enough to kill a Piledriver pre-attackers. He loses his Scourger, draws and plays a land and passes. I Decay a Piledriver at EOT. I am not in a pretty solid place as I can attack with the Goyf, gain life with the Shaman, and still cast the Shardless Agent in my hand. This hits a Strix, which draws me a Goyf. The next dead draw followed by the second Goyf earns a match concession.


Round 8: Justin Parnell with Jund; (2-0-0)

Game 1: Coming from a background in RUG Delver I was a little nervous once I figured out what my opponent was playing this round. However, I was able to kill his Deathrites and slow him down with a Hymn to the point where I was casting Agent into Goyf facing no pressure. He was just trying to keep up. Eventually in game one I just loaded up the board and ground him out.

Sideboarding: -3 Jace, -3 FoW, -2 Thoughtseize; +2 Disfigure, +3 Nihil Spellbomb, +2 Strix, +1 Lili. There is probably some legitimacy to taking out the Hymns for the Charms as they kill Confidants but all of our guys trade with him… so I stuck with the for sure 2-for-1.[/I]

Game 2: I kept a mediocre hand with double Hymn in it, lands and Goyf, and Agent. Justin opened with fetch into Thoughtseize. He chooses a Hymn. I am not sure I feel that is the correct choice but it may be right. I play fetch and pass. He follows suit. I play my second land and Hymn him. I think I hit land and Bloodbraid. His next turn was land and Chains of Mephistopheles. This is pretty rough, but he is not pressuring me and I can choose to not cast draw spells, or Decay it. I play my third land and cast Agent with my fingers crossed that we will hit a creature. I hit a Goyf. His next turn is Bloodbraid into Confidant. I counter with land number four Decay targeting Bob and attacking into the Elf. He chooses not to block. I cast the Goyf from hand in the second main phase. At this point he needs some big plays or it is going to be a short one. He top decks a land and concedes shakes my hand on the match.


Round 9: Nicholas Patnode with TES; (0-2-0)

Game 1: I knew Nick was on TES as I had been talking to Him and Royce the previous day. I mulligan a 7 card hand of dudes and lands in hopes of finding a 6-card hand with FoW and/or discard (ways to interact with TES). My 6 card hand was 2 land, Deathrite, Thoughtseize, and Brainstorm. I guess it could be better but this is reasonable. I fetch a USea and take an Infernal Tutor with Thoughtseize, leaving him with a lot of mana spells but no tutor. He casts a cantrip trying to sculpt the lost ground. I untap and draw the other Thoughtseize. I cast Deathrite and Fetch for the second Thoughtseize. I believe I took a Silence on the second Seize to force him to either go off blind or dig more for another one. He Probes me seeing the rest of my hand is interaction free. He combos off for 8 Goblins. I take my third turn Brainstorming finding Agent Goyf and third land. I Stack so that the following turn I can essentially stabilize the board a bit. He attack with the guys I block one, and passes. I cast the Agent cascading into a Goyf. I have stabilized but at the very low life total of 7. I have now effectively stabilized but at exceeding low life. He chooses not to attack. I hit another Agent which flips Nick the Bird (Strix that is) and give me a card. Now I have a stable board I may be able to get him… well he was able to find the right combination of cards to cantrip, ritual, burning wish, Tendrils me for 8.

Sideboarding: -3 Jace, -4 Shardless Agent, -2 Abrupt Decay, -2 Strix; +3 Nihil Spellbomb, +3 Flusterstorm, +1 Hymn, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Lili, +1 FoW

Game 2: I had a FoW Duressed out of my hand on turn 1. I draw and played a land. He went off after I Flusterstormed a Silence in an attempt to scare him off of comboing. Well he knew all but one of my cards… pretty low odds. He got there.


Overall the deck played pretty well. I think that another piece of disruption in the board would be helpful. I had some matchups where I drew a bit weak and lost and some where I lucked out and managed to scrap together a win. I ended 52nd out of the starting 284. If I had won the last round I would have likely been 16th, I was seated just under Nick by hundredths of a % point going into the last round. I will get 'em next time. I think the deck needs a little help with combo... so a third Thoughtseize and Hymn may be Necessary in addition to the Flusterstorms and fourth FoW. What do you guys think? As usual thanks for the read!

Overall Record for the Weekend Matches: 10-3-0
Overall Record for the Weekend Games: 21-10-0

[Zirath]

Here's my report:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26624-4th-at-SCG-Baltimore-with-Shardless&p=746802#post746802

Sorry for nested threads.

[Pherion]

Here's my report:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26624-4th-at-SCG-Baltimore-with-Shardless&p=746802#post746802

Sorry for nested threads.

Great report! Would you mind explaining your reasoning for not taking out Agents in combo match-ups? This thread seems to have come to the consensus that they are generally bad in combo matches. I'm very curious as to your take.

I also like the Garruk in the board. It seems a very fair play, as it kills almost all of the relevant creatures in the meta. Then it produces a horde of 1/1 deathtouchers! Very nice.

[Zirath]

Great report! Would you mind explaining your reasoning for not taking out Agents in combo match-ups? This thread seems to have come to the consensus that they are generally bad in combo matches. I'm very curious as to your take.

I also like the Garruk in the board. It seems a very fair play, as it kills almost all of the relevant creatures in the meta. Then it produces a horde of 1/1 deathtouchers! Very nice.

My reason is this: combo match ups are all about speed. As a result, you need to generate as much board presence as possible with each turn. For me, this makes Ancestral Visions and Baleful Strix way too slow. In the case of Abrupt Decay, it depends on the specific deck. Sometimes you still need the Decay but not always. This is a Rock deck and reducing the number of creatures is dangerous. I think with Phyrexian Revoker boarding out Agent is better, but if you cut Agent why is Vision still in your deck? It doesn't do anything until turn 5 while Agent could have found you a Goyf, Hymn or Thoughtseize. There is a corner case with Flusterstorm but generally I play Agent last when I have nothing else to do.

Garruk was spectacular the one time I did cast him.

[Kyle]

Garruk was spectacular the one time I did cast him.

I love Garruk, but wouldn't you say he's rather "win-more?" I'm trying to think of where he's really valuable.

[Korvo]

Against wich MUs do you board Garruk?

[Linqed]

Garruk Relentless is strong against Jace, tMS. He's also good at punching the variety of Squire's in the face

[Zirath]

Garruk could easily be win more. I pretty much boarded him in for grindy match ups; Goblins, Stoneblade, the mirror.

Goblins and Maverick are match ups where I see him shining.

[Korvo]

I understand Maverick but isn't he a bit slow against Goblins?

[Zirath]

I understand Maverick but isn't he a bit slow against Goblins?

You are boarding out Jace in that match up (or at least I do) so your curve goes down.

[Cire_dk]

Another nice finish for shardless at latest SCG open. Congratz to Matt Hoey.

[matunos]

I've been playing a relatively stock list, except that I've replaced a Creeping Tar Pit with a basic swamp as a concession to Blood Moon (and to a lesser extent Wasteland). I hate the idea of just conceding to a Blood Moon if I don't have an immediate answer, and a Swamp can theoretically give me outs.

Also, I've come to the conclusion that Flusterstorm is not great against combo. Realistically, it only stops Enter the Infinite (which sometimes plays its own Flusterstorms), because storm decks either Silence you (TES) or strip your hand (ANT) before going off, especially once they know you're playing blue. I think I'd rather just play Mindbreak Trap if I wanted more spells as it's an alternative to FoW (so it might survive a Cabal Therapy and/or slow storm down), you can't accidentally cascade into it (although I usually side my Agents out, especially if I'm bringing in Arcane Laboratory), and it has some marginal utility even if hard-cast.

I'm playing the Arcane Laboratory as I like the idea of them as something to slow the game down against almost all combo out there; but I haven't gotten much of a chance to try them out (I played one against a Food Chain player, but he Abrupt Decayed it a turn or two later). If I decide I want to be able to play Shardless against combo, I'll probably go with just the Mindbreak Traps.

I'm also trying one Scavenging Ooze in the board in place of one of my Nihil Spellbomb as I want to see if he's better against certain decks (including rival Deathrite decks) than just the Spellbombs.

I don't have much real-world tournament output to report as I'm still trying out this particular build, but any constructive comments are welcome.

[Linqed]

As someone who has actually played the deck, I can't say agree with you... But you'll probably find out once you've played the deck.

[matunos]

As someone who has actually played the deck, I can't say agree with you... But you'll probably find out once you've played the deck.

If you're responding to me, it'd be helpful to know exactly what you're not agreeing with. And I've played the deck, just not enough with the current configuration to report much on.

If its the Flusterstorm part, I've tried Flusterstorm in decks (Stoneblade, Miracles, etc.) for quite a while now. I can count on zero hands the number of times I've Flusterstormed a storm finisher. Mostly it's helped win counter wars against RUG Delver and Sneak and Show. This deck crushes RUG, and with 2-3 FoW, no Pierces or Counterspells, it's not really in a position to win counterwars and 2-3 Flusterstorms don't look to change that.

But if you have experience to the contrary, I'm all ears.

[Pherion]

I've been playing a relatively stock list, except that I've replaced a Creeping Tar Pit with a basic swamp as a concession to Blood Moon (and to a lesser extent Wasteland). I hate the idea of just conceding to a Blood Moon if I don't have an immediate answer, and a Swamp can theoretically give me outs.

Also, I've come to the conclusion that Flusterstorm is not great against combo. Realistically, it only stops Enter the Infinite (which sometimes plays its own Flusterstorms), because storm decks either Silence you (TES) or strip your hand (ANT) before going off, especially once they know you're playing blue. I think I'd rather just play Mindbreak Trap if I wanted more spells as it's an alternative to FoW (so it might survive a Cabal Therapy and/or slow storm down), you can't accidentally cascade into it (although I usually side my Agents out, especially if I'm bringing in Arcane Laboratory), and it has some marginal utility even if hard-cast.

I'm playing the Arcane Laboratory as I like the idea of them as something to slow the game down against almost all combo out there; but I haven't gotten much of a chance to try them out (I played one against a Food Chain player, but he Abrupt Decayed it a turn or two later). If I decide I want to be able to play Shardless against combo, I'll probably go with just the Mindbreak Traps.

I'm also trying one Scavenging Ooze in the board in place of one of my Nihil Spellbomb as I want to see if he's better against certain decks (including rival Deathrite decks) than just the Spellbombs.

I don't have much real-world tournament output to report as I'm still trying out this particular build, but any constructive comments are welcome.

I'm going to give a bit of critical analysis of these choices, so don't get mad at me if I disagree with you :)

Swamp over Creeping Tar Pit - I feel that you should find another land to drop. My list a few pages back (34th at SCB Balt) ran both a swamp and a tar pit. The reason tar pit is good: It kills Planeswalkers, deals damage in a stalled board, can only be interacted with at instant speed (baring Wasteland), doesn't die to Abrupt Decay. A single Creeping Tar Pit is often worth digging for if your opponent manages to resolve a planeswalker. It just eats them alive.

Flusterstorm/Mindbreak Trap/Arcane Lab - I still feel that Flusterstorm is too good to drop. It hits any relevant target a combo player (other than Belcher or Painted Servent) is going to try and resolve, and most combo players cast a few spells before they get to their big one. In addition, when fighting an opponent playing counterspells you have to make sure to save the Flusterstorm until last unless you absolutely have to counter something. If you end up in a counter war you'll have the advantage of a large storm count to fuel the flusterstorm. In addition, remember that flusterstorm can target multiple things on the stack. You can force your opponent to build a convoluted stack, then pop a flusterstorm and put a few copies on each important spell. This opens up all kinds of doors for them to make mistakes. It's a card that often requires finess, so don't just slam it if you have other counters in hand - think about the order.

With reference to getting your hand ripped apart. If you really afraid of that, keep Ancestral Vision in the deck. I've been testing with Zirath's plan of retaining Shardless Agent and pitching Ancestral Vision in these match-ups, and I am liking the results so far. There is the possibility of cascading into Flusterstorm, but all of the other options are fantastic.

As to Arcane Laboratory - you have to side out both Ancestral Vision and Shardless Agent for this card to be worthwhile. Visions feeds on your ability to expand your board state immensely in a single turn - if you cant cast 2 spells, this won't work. And of course, Agent doesn't play will with lab. I still like the idea of the card - I'm just not sure if it's the right fit.

That brings me to Mindbreak Trap. This card is OK... but it suffers from some serrious drawbacks. The match-up you cited for Flusterstorm being bad was Show and Tell. Where in a standard SnT deck, they are only casting one important spell per turn - the namesake of the deck. If you don't get into very big counter war, you're likely to not even be able to cast Mindbreak Trap for it's alternative cost. In other match-ups, it's pretty much just like Flusterstorm. ANT will make you discard it, TES will silence you, and so on. I feel that Mindbreak Trap should only be played in decks that do not have access to more powerful counterspells (Goblins, Burn, etc.). These decks have to have an answer, we have many tactics.

Finally: Scavenging Ooze. I don't like this at all. The one match where we really need graveyard hate is Reanimator, and we need that hate on turn 1. Ooze isn't going to be able to eat anything until turn 3 at the earliest (t2 with a Deathrite Shaman). I think that Nihil Spellbomb or even Tormod's Crypt are better options. They come down early and answer the immediate threat.

I'm going to try and brew a bit when I get home to see if I can find a way to work with Arcane Laboratory because I like it - but I'm doubtful :(

Cheers,
Pherion

[martijnend]

I'm going to give a bit of critical analysis of these choices, so don't get mad at me if I disagree with you :)

Swamp over Creeping Tar Pit - I feel that you should find another land to drop. My list a few pages back (34th at SCB Balt) ran both a swamp and a tar pit. The reason tar pit is good: It kills Planeswalkers, deals damage in a stalled board, can only be interacted with at instant speed (baring Wasteland), doesn't die to Abrupt Decay. A single Creeping Tar Pit is often worth digging for if your opponent manages to resolve a planeswalker. It just eats them alive.

Flusterstorm/Mindbreak Trap/Arcane Lab - I still feel that Flusterstorm is too good to drop. It hits any relevant target a combo player (other than Belcher or Painted Servent) is going to try and resolve, and most combo players cast a few spells before they get to their big one. In addition, when fighting an opponent playing counterspells you have to make sure to save the Flusterstorm until last unless you absolutely have to counter something. If you end up in a counter war you'll have the advantage of a large storm count to fuel the flusterstorm. In addition, remember that flusterstorm can target multiple things on the stack. You can force your opponent to build a convoluted stack, then pop a flusterstorm and put a few copies on each important spell. This opens up all kinds of doors for them to make mistakes. It's a card that often requires finess, so don't just slam it if you have other counters in hand - think about the order.

With reference to getting your hand ripped apart. If you really afraid of that, keep Ancestral Vision in the deck. I've been testing with Zirath's plan of retaining Shardless Agent and pitching Ancestral Vision in these match-ups, and I am liking the results so far. There is the possibility of cascading into Flusterstorm, but all of the other options are fantastic.

As to Arcane Laboratory - you have to side out both Ancestral Vision and Shardless Agent for this card to be worthwhile. Visions feeds on your ability to expand your board state immensely in a single turn - if you cant cast 2 spells, this won't work. And of course, Agent doesn't play will with lab. I still like the idea of the card - I'm just not sure if it's the right fit.

That brings me to Mindbreak Trap. This card is OK... but it suffers from some serrious drawbacks. The match-up you cited for Flusterstorm being bad was Show and Tell. Where in a standard SnT deck, they are only casting one important spell per turn - the namesake of the deck. If you don't get into very big counter war, you're likely to not even be able to cast Mindbreak Trap for it's alternative cost. In other match-ups, it's pretty much just like Flusterstorm. ANT will make you discard it, TES will silence you, and so on. I feel that Mindbreak Trap should only be played in decks that do not have access to more powerful counterspells (Goblins, Burn, etc.). These decks have to have an answer, we have many tactics.

Finally: Scavenging Ooze. I don't like this at all. The one match where we really need graveyard hate is Reanimator, and we need that hate on turn 1. Ooze isn't going to be able to eat anything until turn 3 at the earliest (t2 with a Deathrite Shaman). I think that Nihil Spellbomb or even Tormod's Crypt are better options. They come down early and answer the immediate threat.

I'm going to try and brew a bit when I get home to see if I can find a way to work with Arcane Laboratory because I like it - but I'm doubtful :(

Cheers,
Pherion


It seems to me that matunos was playing two Tar Pits and decided to cut one of them for a swamp. In that case I agree with that decision. If Pherion is correct and it's the last Creeping Tar Pit that's going out I believe it's the wrong choice for the reasons Pherion gave earlier. I'm currently at the point where I'm thinking of playing the single swamp, but it's difficult to know what to cut for it. My mana base right now is:
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
At the moment I think that cutting the 4th Misty Rainforest for a swamp is the correct thing to do. Blood Moon seems to be seeing a bit more play.

As for the counterspell discussion: I am no fan of additional counters next to FoW. I play 2 main and 1 in the sb and that seems fine. Against combo this deck is far better in actively disrupting their hand then trying to win through counters.
Combo package: Main - 3 Hymn, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Liliana, 2 FoW with SB - 1 Hymn, 1 FoW, 2 Liliana, 2 Spellbomb and 2 Revoker.
So I'd say that you shouldn't play either Flusterstorm or Mindbreak Trap.

Arcane Laboratory seems to me to be something this deck absolutely doesn't want. There are some extremely good plays with this deck if you can just play two cards in a turn.

I agree with Pherion that Scavenging Ooze probably isn't the correct choice. Ooze doesn't do anything that our deck doesn't already do. And if you want gy hate you want something that's fast. Spellbomb and Crypt are masters and if you want targeted hate I'd suggest Extirpate over Extraction, because of TinFins.

I'm still curious to find out what you think of your inclusions when you've played with them.

Martijnend

[Kirika]

I been testing this deck a bit at smaller local tournaments and its been pretty good making top 4 both times I played it and winning once. I still prefer to play combo over control for large 9 round events because I just don't like going to time and grinding for 9 rounds.

Artifact (1)
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Black (5)
2 Hymm to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize

Blue (13+6 multi)
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Jace the Mindsculptor

Gold/Multi (16)
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Baleful Strix
1 Glissa the Traitor
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Green (4)
4 Tarmogoyf

Land (22)
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard (15)
2 Baleful Strix (creature and fair match ups)
2 Disfigure (kill small creatures like Lackey, Stoneforge etc)
1 Force of Will (combo)
2 Flusterstorm (combo)
2 Golgari Charm (answers x/1s, enchantments (leyline of santity) and supreme verdict)
1 Life from the Loam (control match ups to get ahead on land or recur wastelands)
3 Nihil Spellbomb (graveyard hate for dredge, reanimator, lands, snapcaster, knight of reliquary etc)
2 Thoughtseize (combo)

I'm not sure why more people aren't running some number of basic lands. I can't see not running at least 2 or 3 basic lands. Dislike losing to Bloodmoon, Price of Progress or recuring wastelands. Swamp seems good to fetch out turn 1 to thoughtseize or play a shaman if you are unsure of wasteland threat and you can play a turn 2 Liliana or glissa with deathrite.

I don't like having more then 1 tar pit its really bad to have both of them in your opening hand.

Top is just awesome for improving card quality and setting up cascades. I like it better then Sylvan Library even though you have to sink mana into it because it doesn't require green mana and you can get it down turn 1.

Glissa the traitor is pretty amazing in fair match ups as she just walls most creatures as a first strike death touch and you can get your baleful strix and shardless agents back when you kill their creatures.

Considering adding a 3rd fluster storm as my local meta game is pretty combo heavy and the show and tell and reanimator match ups aren't that great. Not sure what to cut from the board though.

Last local event I played in
R1 Mono red burn 2-0. G1 Hymm got 2 burn spells and I fetched for basics. G2 he had to mulligan and I fetched for basics. He boarded in Guerilla tactics but I boarded out my discard for Flusterstorms and disfigures.
R2 Show and Tell 1-2 One game he had the turn 1 show and tell. another game I had thoughtseize and force and got there. game 3 I had the thought seize and clock but he top decked and got me.
R3 Reanimator 2-0 Strix held him off his Grisel till I could get Lili. G2 turn 1 thoughtseize followed by deathrite with a counter in hand and a goyf gets there.
Top 4 Dredge 2-1 G1: he kills me quick. G2 and 3 I have the Spell bomb and deathrites.
Top 2 RUW delver 2-0 G1: he has a turn 1 delver but no more land and it doesn't flip for awhile so I win. G2: I have the early deathrite+ creatures with enough mana to get around his tax spells. Spell peirce isn't very good vs creatures.

@Zirath
Congrats on your finish

Infest/Massacre actually sounds like a good idea as you want some answer to Mirran Crusader. Not sure what to cut for those from my board though.

Will have to try out Garruk as well.

matunos
Not sure I like Arcane lab either. Discard/counters seems like the better option as they can just abrupt decay your Arcane Lab and you have to board out all your shardless agents.

[matunos]

I certainly appreciate the feedback. To clarify my comments above, I had 2 Tar Pits and went down to one to fit a swamp. I'm even thinking of fitting in a Forest but I wouldn't take the 2nd Tar Pit for it.

About Mindbreak Trap, I don't think I'd bring that in against Sneak Show, as they don't need to cast three spells to go off so it's pretty marginal. My only point there was that I don't think Flusterstorm is that great against them. It marginally better though, as backup for a Force. Mostly I want to disrupt their hand, as they often need to dig for their combo (especially when they're on the Sneak Attack plan) and aren't as reliably fast as storm.

The only benefit I see to Trap against storm is that it's a non-FoW card that's a free counterspell they need to answer. So, against ANT, for instance, it's likely to survive a blind Cabal Therapy.

I think I agree with Arcane Laboratory. The problem I did experience a bit of with the Food Chain deck I played (actually the only combo I've played with my current configuration) is that it slows both of you down and then they remove it and still go off. I certainly want to compare the combo matchups with vs without Agent and I wouldn't leave Agent in with Laboratory (it also impacts suspended Visions too, as you can't cast anything else that turn, including
to protect the Vision).

[DurdleKing]

Hey guys, I'm planning on attending my first legacy tournament on Sunday and I want to play this deck. After reading every article and watching every video I could I decided I like this list by Justin Uppal from the SCG Open in New Jersey on 7/28:

Creatures (14)
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Planeswalkers (4)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Spells (20)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Baleful Strix
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

Any thoughts on this list? I'm thinking of cutting a fetch for a 3rd Wasteland in the main. For the side I'd like to add 2 Massacre and a 4th FOW for 1 Spellbomb, 1 Liliana, and 1 Pulse, or possibly going with the red splash and using 2 Whipflare instead of Massacre. Other than those little tweaks I think the deck looks really solid.

[Pherion]

Hey guys, I'm planning on attending my first legacy tournament on Sunday and I want to play this deck. After reading every article and watching every video I could I decided I like this list by Justin Uppal from the SCG Open in New Jersey on 7/28:

Creatures (14)
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Planeswalkers (4)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Spells (20)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Baleful Strix
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

Any thoughts on this list? I'm thinking of cutting a fetch for a 3rd Wasteland in the main. For the side I'd like to add 2 Massacre and a 4th FOW for 1 Spellbomb, 1 Liliana, and 1 Pulse, or possibly going with the red splash and using 2 Whipflare instead of Massacre. Other than those little tweaks I think the deck looks really solid.

This list is pretty similar to mine right now (mine still has Whipflares). I like a 2/2 split on Planeswalkers. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a powerhouse, but so is Liliana of the Veil. Lilly is better against combo, and that is my primary reason for suggesting a 2nd one.

I would suggest not cutting a fetch for a 3rd Wasteland. This isn't a tempo deck, and it doesn't attack the opponent's mana base. The Wastelands are there to hit Cavern of Souls, Rishadan Port, Maze of Ith, Gaea's Cradle, and so on. In addition, this deck is very mana hungry with many spell containing two colored mana. Adding a 3rd wasteland reduces your access to colored mana.

In addition, do not underestimate the power of a fetch. This deck plays 5-7 Brainstorm effects, and the ability to shuffle away cards is very important. I would suggest keeping a fetch available at all times - you never know when you'll draw a Brainstorm. I'd even go so far as to suggest cutting the fourth Underground Sea for an additional fetch! Oh and did I mention that fetches fuel Deathrite Shaman :eek:!

Solid list :) Have fun tweeking it, and good luck at your tournament.

[DurdleKing]

Ended up going 3-2-1 at my tournament, losing in the last round to miss top 8. Played basically the same list as I posted above, except with the changes suggested by Pherion.

R1 L, URW Miracles: G1 he got out a SDT and a Jace and I couldn't keep up. G2 the game was basically over when he Misdirectioned my Ancestral Visions. He eventually resolved a Blood Moon to finish me off.
R2 W, Dredge: G1 he mulliganed into a hand with no land and I had a Deathrite on turn 1. G2 I landed a turn 1 Nihil Spellbomb. I waited til he had a bunch of goodies in the yard and he couldn't recover after I popped the bomb.
R3 W, URW Delver: I got paired down against a friend who was 0-2 so he gave me the win. I beat him 2-1 in some friendly games.
R4 ID, URW Delver: Got paired against the guy I drove to the tournament with. We were both 2-1 and decided to ID so that we both still had a chance. Also won 2-1 in friendly games.
R5 W, 4-Color Zoo: He had a strange list with typical zoo creatures + Stifle and Spell Snare. Both games I killed his first couple of creatures and then his hand was clogged with reactionary spells, he seemed light on actual threats.
R6 L, Death and Taxes: G1 he had a Thalia and a Mirran Crusader that none of my creatures could block effectively. G2 I Maelstrom Pulsed his Sword of Light and Shadow and in response he used Aether Vial to play Leonin Relic-Warder targeting the Sword. Eventually I had to use my Massacre and he killed me with Serra Avenger wearing the Sword and EOT Aven Mindcensor.

I felt like I was getting pretty comfortable with the deck around the 3rd round. I liked the maindeck and I used every card in my SB except the Flusterstorms as I didn't play against combo. Any suggestions on how to improve the matchup against Miracles, it seems pretty rough. Misdirection is really good against us and a resolved Blood Moon is game over.

[Kyle]

Any suggestions on how to improve the matchup against Miracles, it seems pretty rough. Misdirection is really good against us and a resolved Blood Moon is game over.


Liliana is the best possible card against Miracles as they have no easy way to remove it (unless they counter it, of course), as you want to grind their hand down and put them in topdeck mode.


On the play you want to Thoughtseize them to get rid of Top and against a resolved Top you want to look for opportunities to Abrupt Decay the Top when they fetch. An active Top even with only one or two lands can help them stay in the game. Knowing what they have in their early on can really help to prevent running headlong into a Misdirection or RIP


It is very easy to overextend into Terminus, so your priority is to gain control of their hand and try to get rid of their damn Top before you establish your board presence.


Deathrite Shaman is also an all-star against them (unless they have a RIP out, of course), as it can be your only way to stay alive against Blood Moon.


And lastly, it may not be a bad idea to consider one or two basics (or 3 *gasp* by cutting a fetch) if you have a Miracles-heavy meta and the possible threat of Blood Moon.

[DragoFireheart]

I've looked over the deck list and read some posts and I'm still horribly confused why we have Wasteland when our manabase is extremely fragile. Wouldn't it be better to strength the manabase considering that a Blood Moon dec. just won recently? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Pherion]

I've looked over the deck list and read some posts and I'm still horribly confused why we have Wasteland when our manabase is extremely fragile. Wouldn't it be better to strength the manabase considering that a Blood Moon dec. just won recently? Correct me if I'm wrong.

In my last post I gave a list of troublesome lands that can shut down some of our strategies. That said, we can't use Wasteland to intentionally mana screw our opponents, unless the situation is perfect (turn three, and they've missed 2 land drops). The wastelands are there to provide reach into disrupting an opponents silver bullets. Without them, we risk losing to some of these very obnoxious lands.

If you are facing a very non-basic hating metta, then I can see dropping them for more basics. Still, a single swamp into Deathrite Shaman will take care of any mana setting you need. I was very disappointing in the Cincinnati match where the Shardless BUG player had to scoop to Blood Moon even though he had a Deathrite Shaman.

So we should be playing at least one basic (IMHO), more if you feel it's necessary - but I'm happy with just one right now.

[Wurst2000]

i've been testing the single swamp against painter and it didn't seem to have that much impact. I'm not that sure if these games i played reflect the matchup that well but most of the time i had the choice to fetch the swamp early and leave up the shaman for the most of the game to preserve my fetchlands which ended up loosing to much tempo or use my mana as effective as possible to get maximum pressure which seemed to be the better option most of the time. The matchup is pretty bad and i guess you won't make it as much better as you might think it would by playing the single swamp.

[DragoFireheart]

i've been testing the single swamp against painter and it didn't seem to have that much impact. I'm not that sure if these games i played reflect the matchup that well but most of the time i had the choice to fetch the swamp early and leave up the shaman for the most of the game to preserve my fetchlands which ended up loosing to much tempo or use my mana as effective as possible to get maximum pressure which seemed to be the better option most of the time. The matchup is pretty bad and i guess you won't make it as much better as you might think it would by playing the single swamp.

These were my thoughts as well. Do you think having more basics would help against Bloodmoon.dec or is it just a blow out against us?

[lemariont]

My first two wins vs Painters. Try with a forest and a swamp. I tried with only one swamp and it's very very different.

With the two basics you can use the deathrite for Blue easily, and decay the blood moon.

[DragoFireheart]

My first two wins vs Painters. Try with a forest and a swamp. I tried with only one swamp and it's very very different.

With the two basics you can use the deathrite for Blue easily, and decay the blood moon.

Just curious: have you ever wanted a Island as one of your basics?

[lemariont]

Just curious: have you ever wanted a Island as one of your basics?

A forest and a swamp allow you the minimum required for abrupt decay, malestrom pulse and deathrite. I think more basics can backfire against other decks. My actual land configuration is....

2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

It also allow you to take advantage against mana denial decks, nic fit (veteran explorer) and maybe vs cards like path to exile.

[Wurst2000]

i'm actually not a big fan of basiclands in this list beyond the single swamp. When painter resolves a bloodmoon against you in the first few turns, there still are a lot of things that have to go right for you to be able to make it out if it alive. Against other decks like stifle/wastelands decks your basiclands aren't doing a lot of work anyway because you need to get 4-5 lands into play to take full advantage of all your carddraw any bury your oponent in cardadvantage, which is pretty much your gameplan. i actually think that the basiclands can keep you off from casting crucial spells like a jace, a hymn or whatever else. if your oponent draws loads of wastelands/stifle against you, you'll likely loose, no matter how many basiclands you got in your list.

[DragoFireheart]

For Shardless BUG players:

I'm looking at the core-lists for Shardless BUG and Jund and they look very similar (Goyf, Decay, DRS, etc). Why would I play one deck over the other (pros and cons of each)? BUG seems more explosive, but Jund looks to have a superior later-game plan ala Punishing Fire. I'm interested in both but I don't have any of the duals for making Jund colors while I already have Trops and Seas.

[Sturtzilla]

For Shardless BUG players:

I'm looking at the core-lists for Shardless BUG and Jund and they look very similar (Goyf, Decay, DRS, etc). Why would I play one deck over the other (pros and cons of each)? BUG seems more explosive, but Jund looks to have a superior later-game plan ala Punishing Fire. I'm interested in both but I don't have any of the duals for making Jund colors while I already have Trops and Seas.

Jund gets Lightning Bolt, Punishing Fire, and Bloodbraid Elf. Shardless gets Ancestral Vision, Brainstorm, Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and Force of Will. These are typically the differences in the main deck. I guess it is also worth noting that Shardless gets Creeping Tar Pit, which is great for applying a clock and also murders planeswalkers. You are correct in your analysis that both decks are very similar at the core as far as creatures, disruption, and removal go. Shardless can really negate the effectiveness of opposing discard due to Vision. Jund's removal also doubles as reach which is a nice advantage for them. I think it comes down to personal preference. Are you a Punishing Fire/Lightning Bolt player or a Brainstorm/FoW player?

[DragoFireheart]

I just realized that Mirran Crusader is a big problem for this deck. And he's used in Maverick and DnT.

Just Lilly, Jace bounce + discard, and possibly main-deck Jitte help enough for me to not worry about it?

[razvan]

I went to a small tournament yesterday running Shardless BUG, and a D&T player cut through a swat of us with trivial ease.

That match-up is a nightmare to begin with, and the crusader cuts down the game time in a hurry.

I used 1 Massacre and 1 Infest SB, and both carry their weight. Jitte is good, but how many can the deck conceivably run?

Just try to counter it, hope to discard it, is what I think. It's luckily not popular enough to have anything specific dedicated to it.

[Pherion]

I went to a small tournament yesterday running Shardless BUG, and a D&T player cut through a swat of us with trivial ease.

That match-up is a nightmare to begin with, and the crusader cuts down the game time in a hurry.

I used 1 Massacre and 1 Infest SB, and both carry their weight. Jitte is good, but how many can the deck conceivably run?

Just try to counter it, hope to discard it, is what I think. It's luckily not popular enough to have anything specific dedicated to it.

DnT made 2 slots in top 8 at SCG Baltimore. I think it's worth worrying about.

I used two Whipflare in the board, and in testing it was amazing. Multiple times I've forced DnT to vial in Mirran Crusader to block a Tarmogoyf, and Main Phase 2 case Whipflare. It's a beating for them. If you keep mom off of the board, they can't beat it.

Also important is Golgari Charm and Disfigure. You want all your removal in for game 2 and 3. I think that discard is completely overrated in an agro match-up. It's entirely dependent on who has a superior board state. So I also side in my Baleful Strixes (Stirges?).

Cheers.

[Barbed Blightning]

DnT made 2 slots in top 8 at SCG Baltimore. I think it's worth worrying about.

I used two Whipflare in the board, and in testing it was amazing. Multiple times I've forced DnT to vial in Mirran Crusader to block a Tarmogoyf, and Main Phase 2 case Whipflare. It's a beating for them. If you keep mom off of the board, they can't beat it.

Also important is Golgari Charm and Disfigure. You want all your removal in for game 2 and 3. I think that discard is completely overrated in an agro match-up. It's entirely dependent on who has a superior board state. So I also side in my Baleful Strixes (Stirges?).

Cheers.

As a former D&T player, I cannot stress the importance of removal in this matchup, esp sweepers. Discard is terrible and counter magic barely better, so mass removal is a must to drag them down and let your card advantage drown them.

[Nocley]

I agree with Massacre being the card I'm least happy to see running DnT. I'd ideally want something that works as well against elves - like golgari charm, but that's no where as good against DnT. Don't really like Whipflare - I just don't like needing another card to get the red to play it. The closest thing to the exact 75 I want to play is the list from Atlanta at the last SCG, but I think that the hymm needs to be a massacre, as well as possibly one of the boarded strix's.

Also, what should be our first target against Elves? When they start going they usually get 3+ cards off in that turn and honestly I have no idea what I should be countering/killing with highest priority.

[Wurst2000]

i'm currently testing massacre as a one of. with 2 charms and 1 massacre i'm actually feeling quite confident against maverick and d'n't decks in adition to my spotremoval. I've tested a single swamp for quiet some time and beside the matchups against burn and painter it's a card that actually hurts your manabase. i've missed the second manland more than once and even against those matchups were it should shine, it wasn't nearly good enough. This is my current decklist:
4x deathrite shaman
4x tarmogoyf
4x shardless agent
2x balefulstrix
4x brainstorm
4x ancestral vision
3x hymn to tourach
2x thoughtseize
4x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse
1x dismember
3x jace
2x liliana
4x polluted delta
4x verdant catacombs
2x misty rainforest
3x underground sea
3x bayou
2x tropical island
2x creeping tarpit
2x wasteland

Sideboard
3x force of will
2x flusterstorm
2x thoughtseize
2x nihil spellbomb
2x golgari charm
1x maelstrom pulse
1x baleful strix
1x massacre
1x scavenging ooze

[BigPoppa]

Hey folks,

First post here.

I deciced on the following list;


Creatures (14)
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Planeswalkers (4)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Spells (20)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Baleful Strix
3 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Massacre
1 Thoughtseize

I know the meta at my LGS has high tide, dredge, meathooks and jund. I took it to a tournament this weekend been. This was my first time shuffling up BUG as I'm usually an Enchantress player.

R1 - vs Spanish Inquistion
I was saddened I had this matchup - this was against a friend of mine from out of town who had come to play. He's a high tide regular and was the best player at the tournament. He decided to sleeve up this deck as a recommendation from one of his friends. I had no idea what he was playing and figured it was maybe dredge, as I know thats his vintage deck of choice. As a result, I made a blind sideboard choice of bringing in Nihil Spellbomb G2.

G1 - My opponent mulls to 4. I play fetch, DRS and pass. He untaps, draws, plays LED and passes. I decay the LED and play land, thoughtseize. My opponent scoops.
G2 - My opponent mulls to 5. Plays LED and passes. I play fetch, DRS and pass. He plays another LED and passes. I untap, play Goyf, pass. Opponent draws and passes. I slam another goyf, decay a LED and pass. Opponent plays another LED and passes. I smack him with my dudes and double decay his LED. Opponent continues to do nothing and scoops to a second goyf the following turn.

2-0

R2 - vs MeatHooks
Another disappointing pairing for me, this was from one of my flatmates. I knew what he was playing and thought this was a hard matchup.

G1) Win the roll. Play fetch, DRS, pass. Opponent plays T1 Winged Sliver. I untap and play Hymn hitting shroud sliver and mutavault and follow it up with a thoughtseize hitting vial. Opponent untaps, plays a first strike sliver and passes. I untip and play double goyf. Opponent scoops.
G2) Opponent plays shroud sliver early and proceeds to play a muscle sliver and FS sliver. I wipe the board with massacre, but he refuels with another shroud sliver andmuscle sliver and beats face. I cant keep up.
G3) Game is a bit more grindy, I get a 3 for 1 from Golgari Charm. His vial gets decayed on 0 counters, Massacre gets him again after he plays shroud sliver. I end up getting there.

4-1

R3 - vs Jund
I dislike this matchup.

G1) Good start to the game where I tear his hand up a bit. I made a terrible error where I thoughtseize my opponent, grab liliana, see he has nothing relavent left in his hand and play Jace without onboard defender. He top decks BBE and cascade's to Goyf, blows up Jace and I flood out.
G2) Sided out FoW and hymn, brought in more strix and liliana. Keep triple goyf, pulse, double fetch and DRS. For some reason, get the idea that slow-rolling the Goyfs was a good idea. My hand gets torn apart by hymn to tourach's. BBE into some timely cascades was pretty sweet for him.

4-3

R4 - vs Jund
Again, yaaaay! I got paired up vs the only 3-0 player.
G1) Grindy. Can't remember what happened, but I remember having triple decay for his double liliana and Jace.
G2) He drew better than me and I couldn't keep up with resolve Liliana and double BBE.
G3) This game was insanely grindy. Almost went to time. Highlights include; Blowing up 4 DRS with Pulse (one of em was mine.. :( ). Resolving suspended visions to draw brainstorm, agent and visions, then draw land off the top. A total of 3 visions resolved this game. A turn that involved casting liliana, forcing him to sac a creature. casting another liliana on the same turn, forcing him to sac another, leaving only his goyf, which got decayed and then I swung for lethal.

Overall; 6-4

I think I played poorly at points and very well in others. I ended up coming second as there were a couple of us at 3-1. My opponent in R4 won despite losing to me.

All in all I think BUG is really run. I need to speed up my plays some as I sit in the tank too much and have slow games as a result. I'm looking forward to more events with this deck :)

[DragoFireheart]

If you know your meta is extremely light or has no combo decks, is it worth dropping the FoW maindeck for other things?

[Dragonslayer_90]

If you know your meta is extremely light or has no combo decks, is it worth dropping the FoW maindeck for other things?
Probably. Force of Will is pretty terrible in most fair MU's. Depending on what fair decks are played in a given meta I might even consider playing another deck though. For instance, my meta's full of Thalia decks and Burn seems like. Basically a host of bad MU's for Shardless so I'm probably going to switch to my other deck, ANT, for a while when I get to play at my LGS. If you have more fair blue decks Shardless actually thrives in that kind of environment since it's the best deck for fair blue mirrors IMO.

[DragoFireheart]

For instance, my meta's full of Thalia decks and Burn seems like. Basically a host of bad MU's for Shardless so I'm probably going to switch to my other deck, ANT, for a while

Isn't DnT really good against ANT?

[Dragonslayer_90]

They slow ANT down pretty well but I've combo'ed thru Thalia before. You just have to use your cantrips to sculpt a hand that can do that.

EDIT: I'm going to be playing ANT only because it's better against the decks in my meta than my other decks, which are Shardless BUG and BUG Delver. Were card availability not an issue I'd probably play Omnitell, but I don't have Show and Tells or Sol Lands.


Isn't DnT really good against ANT?

[BigPoppa]

How do we fare against SNT? What's the usual sideboarding practise?

[Grand Superior]

I play both Shardless and Sneak and Show/Omnitell but I've admittedly played this matchup much more from the Show and Tell side. In my experience:

Preboard isn't so bad if you haven't been skimping on disruption in favour of the midrange matchups. We can't afford to run Daze or Spell Pierce like tempo decks, but targeted discard is golden against Show and Tell, you have answers to Emrakul in Jace, Liliana, and Baleful Strix, and you more or less have enough pressure with Tarmogoyf. Abrupt Decay doesn't deal with Sneak Attack/Dream Halls, though, and watch out for Misdirection on Ancestral Vision.

Postboard becomes way more of a challenge thanks to 4x Leyline of Sanctity, which blanks targeted discard and Liliana, again can't be Abrupt Decay'd, and leaves you with only countermagic as defense. Sneak and Show has also started running Blood Moon and we all know how good that card is against Shardless. It's quite unfavourable postboard IMO.

I find the Show and Tell matchup is the one I actually have to prepare for. It's important enough that most players run Flusterstorm in the sideboard despite its disynergy with Shardless Agent. I also side in the extra Maelstrom Pulse, and any discard, enchantment removal, and Lilianas I have. Out comes all Abrupt Decays and maybe 1-2 Ancestral Visions (can be too slow).

[Wurst2000]

i'm playing in a pretty combo-light area too, and i actually really like my list against whitebased thalia/mother of runes decks. I've never lost a tournament-match against these kind of decks. I decided to cut the forces from my maindeck too and really never missed them. The Problem against combodecks that play counters themselve, your force of will will pretty much never stop them from comboing and decks like ant don't really have a problem to win through a single force. This is why i like Discard against them in game 1 a lot more than counters. This is my List:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
2x Baleful Strix
4x ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtseize
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Dismember
3x Jace, the Mindsculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Underground Sea
3x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
2x Creeping Tarpit
2x Wasteland

Sideboard:
3x Force of Will
2x Flusterstorm
2x Thoughtseize
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Golgari Charm
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Baleful Strix
1x Massacre
1x Scavenging Ooze

[Dragonslayer_90]

Went to a Legacy format GP DC Trial today at Empire Cards Game Center in Streetsboro, OH. Ran Shardless BUG to a 3-1 record in the swiss and made the Top 4. Beat my semi-finals opponent and split with my finals opponent to get the 2 byes for GP DC. I'm really happy with how the deck ran today, especially since I was at a loss with it last weekend after scrubbing out at SCG Cleveland. Will post some sort of report with a list when I'm not so tired.

[Pherion]

Went to a Legacy format GP DC Trial today at Empire Cards Game Center in Streetsboro, OH. Ran Shardless BUG to a 3-1 record in the swiss and made the Top 4. Beat my semi-finals opponent and split with my finals opponent to get the 2 byes for GP DC. I'm really happy with how the deck ran today, especially since I was at a loss with it last weekend after scrubbing out at SCG Cleveland. Will post some sort of report with a list when I'm not so tired.

Awesome! I did the same thing today! Except I split and took the money :) I went 3-1 in matches, and 2-0 in top 8 (scooping in finals to give the other guy the byes.) It's a great deck, love it :)

[Dragonslayer_90]

Awesome! I did the same thing today! Except I split and took the money :) I went 3-1 in matches, and 2-0 in top 8 (scooping in finals to give the other guy the byes.) It's a great deck, love it :)

Nice man. Congrats! :)

I just posted my Tournament Report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26893-GP-Washington-DC-Trial-%96-Top-4-with-Shardless-BUG&p=758264#post758264). My two biggest takeaways were the following: 1. I am definitely more comfortable running 23 lands as opposed to 22. Yes, it increases the tendency of getting flooded, but this deck is pretty mana hungry. Besides, playing Brainstorm and Jace also helps mitigate against flooding 2. I used to side out Jace in just about almost every nonblue fair MU. However, I'm not so sure if that is right considering how I kept him in against my Goblins opponent the second time around. In both games of my semifinals round, Jace was the reason I was able to grind my opponent out. Thoughts?

[BigPoppa]

So, I have a small tournament in a couple of days, maybe 12 people. The two matchups I know are going to be hard are;

Godo MUD and SNT.

For the SNT deck,I know he plans on bringing in leyline of sanctity in G2/G3 to stop my targetted discard. Is it worthwhile bringing in Golgari charm to blow up his leyline(s)?

Otherwise I figure it's something like;

+1 FoW
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Hymn
+1 Thoughtseize
+2 Baleful Strix
-4 Shardless Agent
-4 Ancestral Visions

My thoughts are Agent and Visions are just too slow.

[baptist]

So, I have a small tournament in a couple of days, maybe 12 people. The two matchups I know are going to be hard are;

Godo MUD and SNT.

For the SNT deck,I know he plans on bringing in leyline of sanctity in G2/G3 to stop my targetted discard. Is it worthwhile bringing in Golgari charm to blow up his leyline(s)?

Otherwise I figure it's something like;

+1 FoW
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Hymn
+1 Thoughtseize
+2 Baleful Strix
-4 Shardless Agent
-4 Ancestral Visions

My thoughts are Agent and Visions are just too slow.

If that is your meta, I would consider putting the 4th FOW MD.
You should board in Golgari Charm against SNT.
What are the other cards on your sideboard?

[psu42]

Hi, kind of new to the deck. I've seen some lists that eschew all Forces in the main and run them solely in the side. Do you do this for a local meta, or all you comfortable at a larger venue like this as well; ie scg open. Also, is 2 Strix enough main board? It seems pretty standard anymore.

[thefreakaccident]

I would really like to play 2x standstill in here. Bump goyf a bit, and have a second way to combo off of agent. Maybe stop with the wastelands and go for Mishra's factory? Could be cool. I don't know if anyone has ever played hymm with standstill in the same deck. It might be really bad though.

[Tombstalker]

thefreakaccident
I would really like to play 2x standstill in here.
Hey man thats a really cool idea as a cascade target. The only problem I see is there are currently quite a few archtypes that revolve around aether vial atm.

[Pherion]

I would really like to play 2x standstill in here. Bump goyf a bit, and have a second way to combo off of agent. Maybe stop with the wastelands and go for Mishra's factory? Could be cool. I don't know if anyone has ever played hymm with standstill in the same deck. It might be really bad though.

The problem with Standstill is that you have to have a superior board state. BUG can sometimes have trouble with this early on, and also likes to slam an Agent turn 3 blindly. Imagine cascading on turn three against goblins and hitting Standstill while they have 4-5 goblins out. You're going to have to break it, because even if they don't have an Aether Vial they won't break it until they run out of goblins to throw at your 2/2.

On another note, there are so many decks where you want to flip removal from your Agent, and hitting a Standstill would just be bad.

This is not to say it's not worth testing. I just don't see it generating the kind of board state we are looking for.

[somethingdotdotdot]

So what do you guys think about the new cards in the commander set? In particular, do you see true-name nemesis having a slot in the md and/or toxic deluge as a catch-all sweeper in the board?

[Grand Superior]

So what do you guys think about the new cards in the commander set? In particular, do you see true-name nemesis having a slot in the md and/or toxic deluge as a catch-all sweeper in the board?

I'm not sure if True-Name Nemesis does anything that our deck doesn't already have covered. We already have our impacting three-drop in Shardless Agent (and in some cases Liliana of the Veil and even Maelstrom Pulse), clock+defensive creature in Tarmogoyf, and control and planeswalker-assassin in Creeping Tar Pit. It also requires :u::u:, which subtly strains the mana a bit more because this deck is really a :b::g: deck with :u: as a support colour.

I agree with wcm8 on the SCD discussion thread. I think the card is great in Team America because it has a much greater impact on that deck and fills more roles (essentially replaces Tombstalker). If it shifts to a more True-Name Nemesis-centered metagame, then I can see changing the deck around to fit it. In my opinion, True-Name Nemesis isn't something that just fits right into the Shardless BUG deck - it requires that the deck be changed up to accommodate it.

Toxic Deluge is another card that I think fits better in the tempo BUG decks, but it can find space in sideboards. It might be a reason not to run Whipflare in the sideboard, but then I have no experience with Shardless BUG with the red splash so I can't comment on that.

[Dragonslayer_90]

As a card, I like Toxic Deluge a lot. Going to test 1 or 2 in my sb when I get the time. I like how it gives me a little more versatility than Infest, the card it may end up replacing in my sb.

Anyways, so one of my buddies who is going to GP DC with me is trying to learn how to play Shardless BUG before then. He played against an Elves player in the swiss at my LGS yesterday. After the match we talked about his sb'ing, which went like the following: -3 Jace, -3 Force of Will, +2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure. I didn't necessarily say he was wrong for sb'ing like that, but I'm not sure about taking out Force of Will against Elves. This is a MU I'm still trying to figure out. Thoughts? What are your plans when you get paired against Elves? What do you side in and out?

[Sturtzilla]

As a card, I like Toxic Deluge a lot. Going to test 1 or 2 in my sb when I get the time. I like how it gives me a little more versatility than Infest, the card it may end up replacing in my sb.

I am intrigued by this as well. The card would make for a solid and more easily castable sweeper for match ups like Goblins, Merfolk, Affinity, and Elves. I am sure there are other applications as well. Seems like this could be a great sideboard card.



Anyways, so one of my buddies who is going to GP DC with me is trying to learn how to play Shardless BUG before then. He played against an Elves player in the swiss at my LGS yesterday. After the match we talked about his sb'ing, which went like the following: -3 Jace, -3 Force of Will, +2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure. I didn't necessarily say he was wrong for sb'ing like that, but I'm not sure about taking out Force of Will against Elves. This is a MU I'm still trying to figure out. Thoughts? What are your plans when you get paired against Elves? What do you side in and out?

I am not sure that taking out the Force of Will is correct. I assume that his opponent was playing combo elves. If that is the case, you really need to make sure that they do not resolve a Glimpse of Nature. If you can either Thoughtseize or Force the Glimpses they are playing worse creatures than we are which should allow for your Deathrites and Goyfs to take over the game. I think the exact sideboarding plan depends if you are on the play and how you mean to interact. Thoughtseize and FoW are both really awesome. Hymn isn't bad but isn't the greatest. It is a nice two for one which cuts down on their resources but it is slow by comparison to FoW being able to counter Glimpse on the draw or Thoughtseize (possibly with FoW back up) on the play. Those are my thoughts. I would probably Leave the FoW in and take out 2 Hymn and maybe an Agent or Visions.

[kingtk3]

You need FoW for Natural Order most of all: with your discard and the fact that he plays many low CC cards, is plausible that opponent will remain with few cards in hand soon, which is a situation where glimpse can fizzle (unless he chains into the right creatures like a champ).

However a topdecked Natural Order can end the game even with only three creatures in play.

I would surely side out visions and some number of shardless before FoW.

[Water_Wizard]

Against Elves, Jace needs to come out (I think that we all agree on this).

Hymn should definitely come out on the draw. It's questionable on the play, as it is a dead draw later in the game.

Force is good. However, watch your blue count. If you cut Jace, Visions, and Shardless, then you are only running a handful of blue cards to pitch to Force.

I would also consider cutting Creeping Tar Pit. Cutting a few Wasteland is also an option, as Elves usually has mega-mana and doesn't attack ours.

[somethingdotdotdot]

If you're really afraid of the elves matchup, just put 3 grafdigger's cages in the board. Its a card that they NEED to answer to go off and it shuts off one of their main ways to find removal for it as well (gsz). I've found cage+sweeper effect (whipflare in my case) is really quite good at shutting down their game plan.

[DragoFireheart]

Toxic Delgue is exactly what this deck wanted. I love it, love it, love it. It even answers the infamous True-Name Nemesis!

[th3 w1z4rd]

If you're really afraid of the elves matchup, just put 3 grafdigger's cages in the board. Its a card that they NEED to answer to go off and it shuts off one of their main ways to find removal for it as well (gsz). I've found cage+sweeper effect (whipflare in my case) is really quite good at shutting down their game plan.

Elves doesn't need to answer Cage. They just play Glimpse and Cage is useless.

[Zirath]

Elves doesn't need to answer Cage. They just play Glimpse and Cage is useless.

They don't need to but it severely limits their lines.

[Julian23]

As an Elves player, Cage is a real pain in the ass. Much more than most other non-sweeper hate card.

[Goosen]

What do you guys think about the UWR Delver match up? I am interested to hear your views.

[wcm8]

Everyone needs to start playing Leyjay's version of the deck (minor red splash, 4 Liliana of the Veil maindeck, no discard except 1cmc targeted in the sideboard, Whipflare, etc.). I was able to split for 1st/2nd at a GPT this past weekend with it.

Here's a link to the most recent version: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/205957

Hymn just isn't the right card for this deck. Hymn is a better card in a faster, more aggressive deck (e.g. Team America). Yes, there are the occasional turn 2 Hymn blowouts, but I think with how durdly BUG Cascade is, you don't want too many cards that have such a low impact late game. Force of Will on the other hand is nice, because you need *some* counter spells, and you recoup the disadvantage eventually via Vision, Cascade, and Jace.

I could see 1-2 TNN making it into this deck, perhaps cutting a Goyf or Strix or two. It'd be nice to have the insurance against control and midrange, since aside from Goyf, our creatures are pretty pathetic in terms of fighting.

Standstill is bad here, and I think kinda bad in general in Legacy right now.

Toxic Deluge is interesting, but Whipflare still has several advantages over it: less mana, doesn't cost life, won't kill anything on your own board aside from DRS. I don't think fitting a single Badlands into your manabase is that much of a sacrifice.

With Lejay's version, UWR isn't too problematic as long as you can develop your board/ Try to not run yourself into Stifle or Daze needlessly. Kill their threats as they come out, and that way if they try to land a Geist (the only REALLY problematic card), Lili will be able to take care of him. Then you bring in more Whipflare from the sideboard, which kills pretty much every creature in their deck.

The only 'auto-lose' matchups this deck seems to have is UR/Mono-Red Burn, and Painter (Bloodmoon.dec). Otherwise, even combo decks can be handled with the proper sideboarding and a little luck. I was actually able to defeat Reanimator twice this weekend (in the swiss and again in the top 8).

[DragoFireheart]

Four colours? No Hymn?

No.

I really really really dislike FoW in this deck and would rather regulate it to the sideboard.

[Pherion]

Everyone needs to start playing Leyjay's version of the deck (minor red splash, 4 Liliana of the Veil maindeck, no discard except 1cmc targeted in the sideboard, Whipflare, etc.). I was able to split for 1st/2nd at a GPT this past weekend with it.

Here's a link to the most recent version: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/205957

Hymn just isn't the right card for this deck. Hymn is a better card in a faster, more aggressive deck (e.g. Team America). Yes, there are the occasional turn 2 Hymn blowouts, but I think with how durdly BUG Cascade is, you don't want too many cards that have such a low impact late game. Force of Will on the other hand is nice, because you need *some* counter spells, and you recoup the disadvantage eventually via Vision, Cascade, and Jace.

I could see 1-2 TNN making it into this deck, perhaps cutting a Goyf or Strix or two. It'd be nice to have the insurance against control and midrange, since aside from Goyf, our creatures are pretty pathetic in terms of fighting.

Standstill is bad here, and I think kinda bad in general in Legacy right now.

Toxic Deluge is interesting, but Whipflare still has several advantages over it: less mana, doesn't cost life, won't kill anything on your own board aside from DRS. I don't think fitting a single Badlands into your manabase is that much of a sacrifice.

With Lejay's version, UWR isn't too problematic as long as you can develop your board/ Try to not run yourself into Stifle or Daze needlessly. Kill their threats as they come out, and that way if they try to land a Geist (the only REALLY problematic card), Lili will be able to take care of him. Then you bring in more Whipflare from the sideboard, which kills pretty much every creature in their deck.

The only 'auto-lose' matchups this deck seems to have is UR/Mono-Red Burn, and Painter (Bloodmoon.dec). Otherwise, even combo decks can be handled with the proper sideboarding and a little luck. I was actually able to defeat Reanimator twice this weekend (in the swiss and again in the top 8).

This deck looks interesting. A few things:

I'm not sure I like the Forest in the sideboard. I understand where it would be good to have, but it just feels like a waste of space.
I also think that at least for GP DC, and other upcoming events, Golgari Charm, Infest, and Toxic Deluge might need to replace Whipflare. I expect that at least URW Delver will be using True-Name Nemesis, and an influx of Merfolk enthusiasts might also show up. Killing him is going to be important, and Whipflare doesn't do it.
I'm also still of the opinion that Notion Thief is just not a good card. It's most certainly a win-more. You have to leave mana open to cast him to the greatest effect, and if your opponent doesn't brainstorm or something, you're pretty much forced to cast him anyway - otherwise you're just loosing ground by not expanding your board state for a turn.

I'm interesting if this is the direction the deck is going to take in the near future. It's almost a super-friends deck with six planeswalkers!

P.S. ...

Everyone needs to start playing Leyjay's version of the deck
I wouldn't make the assumption that this version of the deck works for everyone. Also, one success is far from sufficient proof that "everyone" should be playing this version of the deck. We need further testing and conversation before we can verify that one build is the best.

[Julian23]

Notion Thief doesn't die to Abrupt Decay. It's the uncontested king of all mirror matches and a great card to drop off Show and Tell. I agree that 4 mana is a bit rough at times but it's got Flash for a reason. You never want to, but having access to a single one is incredibly good.

[Pherion]

Notion Thief doesn't die to Abrupt Decay. It's the uncontested king of all mirror matches and a great card to drop off Show and Tell. I agree that 4 mana is a bit rough at times but it's got Flash for a reason. You never want to, but having access to a single one is incredibly good.

I would have to contend that it does not in fact win mirror matches. I have had multiple mirrors where an opponent has dropped Thief in response to a Jace brainstorm, or a resolving Vision. I have won all of these matches. The simple fact that cards in hand do not directly equate to board state is the key concept here. In both situations, I had a superior board state, and the opponent was quickly forced to block with their thief in order to remain alive. If you are in a behind position, Thief does little to bring you forward. It's itty-bitty butt does nothing for blocking, and it's a bad attacker (no evasion). Drawing all of the cards is amazing, but if you can't bring them onto the table before you die, it's irreverent.

That said, the situations where I would want to draw all these cards, are ones where I already had a good board state, or was at least in parity with the other side. In these situations, you want to be expanding your board state consistently. Holding up 4 mana for durdly 3/1 when you could be playing Agent, or attacking with Tar Pit is just bad...

[wcm8]

On the other hand, having a Strix on board, and dropping Thief from a Reanimator opponent's Show and Tell (to the opponent's Griselbrand) was enough to buy me time to take over the game with Planeswalkers. Narrow case, but happened this past weekend.

I agree Notion Thief is kinda narrow, but isn't that what sideboard cards are there for? It seems to provide an elegant answer to Jace and any deck that abuses draw mechanics.

[Pherion]

On the other hand, having a Strix on board, and dropping Thief from a Reanimator opponent's Show and Tell (to the opponent's Griselbrand) was enough to buy me time to take over the game with Planeswalkers. Narrow case, but happened this past weekend.

I agree Notion Thief is kinda narrow, but isn't that what sideboard cards are there for? It seems to provide an elegant answer to Jace and any deck that abuses draw mechanics.

I normally build my sideboard with the exact opposite mindset. I want cards that will shore up my worst match-ups, but still be applicable for other situations. Having a card that only affects fringe situations to me is a waste, because those situations aren't going to come up often enough for the card to prove itself. Cards like Disfigure, Golgari Charm, Thoughtseize, and so on, that often show up in my board, have numerous uses in addition to being very good in particularly tough match-ups.

It may be that we have different sideboard philosophy. You are looking for cards that specifically fix a narrow set of problems, while I'm looking for generalized answer that increase the odds of fixing a variety of situations. It's hard to say which strategy is ultimately correct, and it probably just comes down to play style.

[Topazwarrior]

Been working a new build of Shardless for awhile now, and I've been pretty happy with the results (finished 10th at Legacy Champs today). I cut Hymns completely, which freed up the mana base enough to run basics (seriously, who else is sick of losing to blood moon?), and allowed me to run Scavenging Ooze in the board for RUG Delver and graveyard decks. In addition to freeing up the mana base, cutting hymn to run the full 4 Thoughtseize main makes you more mana efficient, gives you information on their hand, and guarantees you will take the card you want. The loss of card advantage is more than compensated by the rest of the deck. Here's the list I ran today:

Main deck:
Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Baleful Strix
4x Shardless Agent

Sorceries:
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Force of Will

Planeswalkers:
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands:
4x Verdant Catacomb
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Wasteland
2x Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard;
2x Flusterstorm
2x Disfigure
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Baleful Strix
2x Golgari Charm
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Dismember
1x Force of Will

Some notes about the list:
The list should probably have more Polluted Deltas, but I only own one so that's how I ran it :)
The third Tropical Island is to help support Scavenging Ooze in the board. The third Underground Sea isn't necessary without Hymn or Liliana.
I cut down to 1 Wasteland because whenever I would open with one in my opening (before and after cutting hymn), it seriously disrupted my development. I like having one to dig into for problem lands, but rarely want to see more.
The Toxic Deluge was very underwhelming. For the time being will be replaced by the 3rd Golgari Charm


As for the rounds, a more detailed description of the rounds can be found in my tournament report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26986-Legacy-Champs-10th-with-Shardless-BUG)):

Round 1 - Esper Stoneblade 2-0
Round 2 - Reanimator 2-0
Round 3 - Sneak and Show 2-1
Round 4 - Bant 1-1-1
Round 5 - Merfolk w/ True Name Nemesis 1-2
Round 6 - Esper Stoneblade 2-0
Round 7 - Rug Delver 2-0
Round 8 - Jund Nic Fit Scapeshift 2-0
Round 9 - Rug Delver 2-1

End result - 7-1-1 in matches, 16-5-1 in games (Bad breakers put me in 10th)


Interested to hear what you guys think of the build, as well as any feedback on what could be done with it!

[DragoFireheart]

Interested to hear what you guys think of the build, as well as any feedback on what could be done with it!

Did you ever miss the Hymns/Lilly?

[Topazwarrior]

Did you ever miss the Hymns/Lilly?

Honestly, I cannot think of a time where I wanted either of them. I was always happy with being able to choose with Thoughtseize, and the 2 life never mattered. As far as Liliana, against combo I never had spare cards that I wanted to pitch; everything was either a threat or reactive cards that I wanted to hold. Against fair decks, the boards were either too cluttered (Bant, Nic Fit), or I never had the chance to safely cast it (RUG Delver). The only matchups it may have helped were Reanimator and Sneak and Show, but even in these matchups it would have been a glorified 3 mana Cruel Edict.

There were a number of times, though, where if my Thoughtseize had been a hymn I could have lost, especially against Reanimator and Sneak and Show. The information and the choice helps the matchups a lot.

[ziggy_stardust]

My buddy played this deck at the only grinder for the Legacy Champs at Eternal Weekend and took the whole thing down (the grinder, not the main event). He was on a Lejay-esque version (quad Lilys), but he replaced 2 goyfs and 2 something else with 4 True Name Nemesis and loved it. Said he might consider cutting the goyfs all together, though I don't think it's correct to not have a sweet beater that you can cascade into. In the finals of the grinder, I believe he was playing against a blade deck, and Nemesis blocked all day until he could find action and kept opposing Jaces off the board. I think if you really want to play 4, 2/2 md/sb split seems better than all 4 in the main, but I don't really play this deck, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[DragoFireheart]

My buddy played this deck at the only grinder for the Legacy Champs at Eternal Weekend and took the whole thing down (the grinder, not the main event). He was on a Lejay-esque version (quad Lilys), but he replaced 2 goyfs and 2 something else with 4 True Name Nemesis and loved it. Said he might consider cutting the goyfs all together, though I don't think it's correct to not have a sweet beater that you can cascade into. In the finals of the grinder, I believe he was playing against a blade deck, and Nemesis blocked all day until he could find action and kept opposing Jaces off the board. I think if you really want to play 4, 2/2 md/sb split seems better than all 4 in the main, but I don't really play this deck, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I think going less than 4 Goyfs is a mistake. He's a dirt cheap beater that plays nice with all of the discard and hit-anything removal that is AD. Getting multiple card types is easy and I find he's almost always a 4/5 in this deck.

2 TNN in the main and 2 in the side seems like the correct choice. We don't want to drop Shardless Agent either.

[martijnend]

I've been playing this deck for about six months now and last weekend I've been to the Bazaar of Moxen in Paris with 690 players in the main event.
This is the list I played.

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrum Pulse
2 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

SB:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Golgari Charm
1 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Baleful Strix

The Venser is in the SB, because I saw a lot of Show and Tell decks during the trials. Life from the Loam has been very impressive for me in earlier tournaments. It wasn't during this weekend.

R1-3: byes (3-0)
R4: Mirror 1-1-1 (3-0-1)
R5: Cloudpost 2-0 (4-0-1)
R6: UWR Delver 2-0 (5-0-1)
R7: UW Miracles 0-2 (5-1-1)
R8: Elves 2-1 (6-1-1)
R9: Esper 2-1 (7-1-1)
R10: BUG Delver 2-0 (8-1-1)
R11: ANT 1-2 (8-2-1)
R12: Death's Shadow 0-2 (8-3-1)
R13: BUG 2-0 (9-3-1)
R14: RUG Delver 1-2 (9-4-1)
R15: Reanimator 2-0 (10-4-1)

My final ranking was 28.
The great performers were Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay, Liliana of the Veil and Golgari Charm. The underperformers were Force of Will (though ofcourse sometimes amazing) and Life from the Loam.
The one thing that I'm certain about is that I want a second Liliana in the main.

About True-Name Nemesis: I was never really impressed when my opponent played it. I won every single round against a Nemesis deck during the weekend. Liliana and Charm are hammering them.

[Topazwarrior]

Congrats on the finish! How were the Phyrexian Revokers in the sideboard? I'm guessing they were there to help out with the Sneak and Show matchup, but are there any other times you brought them in? How did they perform? I'm curious because I've ran 1 in the past to moderate success, and am debating bringing one back

[martijnend]

The Revokers are indeed mainly for the Sneak and Show matchup though there are other decks against which it does some work. I decided to bring them in against the following decks:
1. ANT - Name Lion's Eye Diamond with them and it gets much harder to go hellbent.
2. Elves - depending on the board you can name Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger and Heritage Druid.
3. UW Miracles - Mainly for Sensei's Divining Top, but it would be good to name Jace or Elspeth as well.
4. Reanimator - this was just because there are a lot of dead cards against reanimator in the board. I brought them in to name Griselbrand and have two little extra beaters.

I would probably board them in against a few other decks as well though they are not seen very much, such as high tide with candelabra's.

[Topazwarrior]

The Revokers are indeed mainly for the Sneak and Show matchup though there are other decks against which it does some work. I decided to bring them in against the following decks:
1. ANT - Name Lion's Eye Diamond with them and it gets much harder to go hellbent.
2. Elves - depending on the board you can name Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger and Heritage Druid.
3. UW Miracles - Mainly for Sensei's Divining Top, but it would be good to name Jace or Elspeth as well.
4. Reanimator - this was just because there are a lot of dead cards against reanimator in the board. I brought them in to name Griselbrand and have two little extra beaters.

I would probably board them in against a few other decks as well though they are not seen very much, such as high tide with candelabra's.

Very cool. I'll have to see if I can find room for 1-2. The other card I've been debating is Pernicious Deed, but it seems to do as much damage to us as it may an opponent. My concern is Merfolk. In my testing, it is a very tough matchup. The addition of TNN gives them a way to beat us even if we kill all their lords. Maybe Engineed Plague is good? Anyone have any thoughts/experience with Deed?

[martijnend]

Yeah, Merfolk might become a problem now they have the Nemesis as well. I haven't tested much against the deck much but I assume that we have to go as much BG boardcontrol as possible. With 4 Decay, 2 Pulse, 2 Disfigure, 3 Liliana, 2 Golgari Charm and 3 Strix (yes, blue, I know, but we have ways of making blue mana without giving them islandwalk) we might have a good chance against them.
I've tried Deed in the past, but it didn't work out. It is just too mana intensive and the deck against which you want it are better are rebuilding their boards then we are.

[Topazwarrior]

Yeah, Merfolk might become a problem now they have the Nemesis as well. I haven't tested much against the deck much but I assume that we have to go as much BG boardcontrol as possible. With 4 Decay, 2 Pulse, 2 Disfigure, 3 Liliana, 2 Golgari Charm and 3 Strix (yes, blue, I know, but we have ways of making blue mana without giving them islandwalk) we might have a good chance against them.
I've tried Deed in the past, but it didn't work out. It is just too mana intensive and the deck against which you want it are better are rebuilding their boards then we are.

Yea I always board into the BG Rock deck with tons of removal against Merfolk. It looks like I may have to put a Liliana or 2 in my sideboard to help with this matchup. Just kill everything then edict TNN. Not the best, but its a shot

[martijnend]

Yeah, we'll just have to try a few games against the deck and see how it goes. I see Liliana as pretty much an auto-include. Try her out.
By the way, I only just noticed the Jitte in your sideboard. How does it work for you? I've been thinking of creating a spot for it.

[Topazwarrior]

Jitte is very good against pretty much every fair deck. If you can resolve it against RUG Delver, Death and Taxes, Merfolk, etc and not just die the next turn, you usually end up winning. It buys you time while shredding their board. I definitely recommend one, as its usually ends the game against those decks.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So, if True-Name Nemesis becomes extremely popular, I'm guessing Liliana will go up in numbers? Iirc, this deck has a pretty good matchup against Esperblade. Why is that? Just more card advantage? How would Esperblade go about beating you? Sorry, just looking for matchup analyses and discussion.

-ABC

[Patrunkenphat7]

I've noticed that this deck has gone way down in popularity. Is that because of the Death and Taxes + Show and Tell combo surge?

[Topazwarrior]

So, if True-Name Nemesis becomes extremely popular, I'm guessing Liliana will go up in numbers? Iirc, this deck has a pretty good matchup against Esperblade. Why is that? Just more card advantage? How would Esperblade go about beating you? Sorry, just looking for matchup analyses and discussion.

-ABC

It's possible that Liliana goes up in numbers, but if they're a heavy creature deck it's not even a guarantee solution. As long as they aren't Merfolk with a lord in play, Golgari Charm is a pretty good answer that has other uses.

As far as Esperblade, essentially we are trying to do the same thing; make the game go long and win with card advantage. On the whole, though, we can draw more cards and impact the board better. Also, our cards randomly just are better than theirs (DRS vs Snapcaster, Goyf/Strix against Batterskull, Tar Pit against Jace, etc.). The way we lose is if they are sideboarding a card we have trouble dealing with, like Elspeth Knight Errant, or we draw poor (hit lots/few lands, don't draw decay for Jitte).


I've noticed that this deck has gone way down in popularity. Is that because of the Death and Taxes + Show and Tell combo surge?

I'm not sure why the deck has dropped off in popularity, but I think it may be a combination of factors. I first noticed the decline when Painted Stone, and other blood moon decks, won some tournaments. Around the same time, a lot of the other fair decks (Miracles, Maverick, Stoneblade, Jund) which we have decent/good matchups against disappeared. I don't think Show and Tell is a horrible match up, as long as you come prepared. Same with Death and Taxes, although it is an uphill battle. Golgari Charm helps out a lot in both these match ups, as well as others. I think somewhere between 2-3 is the sweet spot for charm, because it just does so much in so many matchups.

[Final Fortune]

I don't think U/g/b aggro-control or control decks want True Name Nemesis because it has G, which gives it access to Tarmogoyf, and B which gives it access to Golgari Charm and perhaps more importantly Engineered Plague so the deck can essentially establish a beater bigger than Batterskull and keep the board cleared of Spirit Tokens or mini Progenitus.

[infiniteJ]

Has anyone tested a Shardless-less Bug list with Nemesis? I have played Team america with Nemesis a little but Delver/Daze feel like the worst cards sometimes.
I was thinking that if you slot the nemesis in the shardless position and cut the visions.

The basic shell would be:
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Strix
4 Nemesis
4 thoughtseize
4 force
4 brainstorm
4 abrupt decay
4 lilliana
2 jace
22 land

But you probably want to cut some strix for more anticombo measures like hymn, depending on the meta...but then you need more blue cards. Any thoughts on this shuffle?

I'm fairly certain Pierre Sommen had success with a similar shell in teh main event of BoM.

Another interesting idea is to keep the shardless agent, cut the visions, and some of the plainswalkers, add some jittes and discard adn play more of a fish style:

4 DRS
4 Strix
4 Goyf
4 TNN
4 Shardless
4 brainstorm
4 force
4 decay
2 hymn/lilliana
4 thoughtseize
1 jitte

This is kind of appealing to me.

-IJ

[somethingdotdotdot]

The problem that you run into when you take out shardless and visions is that the deck no longer has any true card advantage outside of strix/jace. Liliana becomes way worse due to the inability to discard extra cards that you dont need. If you want to do nemesis instead of shardless, I think you need to load up on snapcasters and loam as another way of card advantage. Problem then is that rip just COMPLETELY hoses your deck.

[martijnend]

The problem that you run into when you take out shardless and visions is that the deck no longer has any true card advantage outside of strix/jace. Liliana becomes way worse due to the inability to discard extra cards that you dont need. If you want to do nemesis instead of shardless, I think you need to load up on snapcasters and loam as another way of card advantage. Problem then is that rip just COMPLETELY hoses your deck.

I agree. The whole point of the deck is to abuse Shardless as much as possible.
Pierre Sommen did indeed play BUG with Nemesis at the BoM (I was his opponent in round 13), but Shardless BUG generally just beats other BUG strategies. For me this is another reason to stick to the Shardless version without the Nemesis. I think people will expect Nemesis in BUG lists so they might sideboard against even if they do not see the card in the first game. Another slight advantage.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I agree. The whole point of the deck is to abuse Shardless as much as possible.
Pierre Sommen did indeed play BUG with Nemesis at the BoM (I was his opponent in round 13), but Shardless BUG generally just beats other BUG strategies. For me this is another reason to stick to the Shardless version without the Nemesis. I think people will expect Nemesis in BUG lists so they might sideboard against even if they do not see the card in the first game. Another slight advantage.

I concur as well.

I am not sure if Nemesis belongs in either of the BUG decks (Shardless or BUG Delver). I think he's more suited for Stoneblade and UR Delver. There are two problems I see with Nemesis in Shardless BUG: 1. He's a 3-drop. We already play at least 4 three-drops with Shadless Agent. Usually we play a few more with main deck lilis or pulse. Sure, we have Deathrite Shaman to make three drops less clunky, but you can't always rely on him sticking. Overall, I think for a secondary three drop Liliana is better for what the deck is trying to do than nemesis. 2. He nonbos with Golgari Charm and Toxic Deluge, which are among the best sb options for us.

Also, people often say that Shardless BUG doesn't have enough threats so I can see why you might want to try out Nemesis. But I've never had trouble closing out games with this deck. You draw so many cards that you will see more Goyfs than any other Goyf deck.

[infiniteJ]

The problem that you run into when you take out shardless and visions is that the deck no longer has any true card advantage outside of strix/jace. Liliana becomes way worse due to the inability to discard extra cards that you dont need. If you want to do nemesis instead of shardless, I think you need to load up on snapcasters and loam as another way of card advantage. Problem then is that rip just COMPLETELY hoses your deck.

I agree to some extent and that's why I was wondering if it had been tested. The shardless plan is tried and tested but the deck hasn't been performing that great for me. Honestly though, Lilliana is a house in jund and they don't have a draw 3. Most of the time I find myself discarding av early or hymn in the late game. Strix and jace are significant card advantage and there is substantial advantage to an invincible blocker for your plainswalkers. Often the best part about the agent is he chumps for jace and then pumps goyf.

The second idea would be to keep agent. A deck w agent strix goyf and nemesis would clog the board extremely well.

I'm finalizing plans for gp dc and I'll prob run midrange if I think delver and stoneforge will be prominent, and team America if there is a lot of sneak show. My testing w nemesis has been that he is the single most important card in non combo matchups as he is functionally removal and action, so I'd like to fit him in one of these shells.

-ij

[order]

Here is my strategy the most popular decks. What do you think?

My list

22 lands
2 creeping tar pit
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
3 misty rainforest
3 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
2 wasteland

2 Jace TMS
2 Liliana of the veil

4 tarmogoy
4 deathrite shaman
4 shardless agent
2 baleful strix

4 brainstorm
4 ancestral vision
3 force of will
2 hymn to tourach
2 toughtseize
1 maelstrom pulse
4 abrupt decay


Side
2 baleful strix
2 desfigure
2 golgari charm
2 thoughtseize
1 fow
2 spell pierce
2 nihil spellbomb
1 notion thief
1 umezawa's jitte


RUG/
+ 2 baleful strix +2 desfigure -3fow -1jace
-> The match is very very grind. They
->For me Baleful Strix is insane against them.We need to reach the late game and she is perfect for that.
-> Stifle is insane agains us. Sometimes we need to force them in our fetch lands because we have ancestral vision ticking or shardless/liliana in hand.
-> Fow will be dazed or pierced
-> Jace costs 4 mana. Bleh.
->

UWR
+ 2 baleful strix +2 desfigure -3fow -1jace
-> I prefer keep my thoughtseizes and use after an stoneforge. Batterskull is gg agains us.
-> Baleful strix again shines. But we need to keep them of lavamancers.

Sneak and Show
+2 thoughtseize +2spell pierce +1fow +1notion thief +2 golgari charm
-4 abrupt decay -4ancestral visions: visions as too slow and abrupt blank
-> I dont cut shardless because they are clock!! And we have only 2 pierces to being hit.
-> golgari charm enters agains blood moon, sneak atack and leiline.
-> We need to have a fast clock (read tarmogoyf) as soon as possible. Because of that i prefer goyf rather then hymn on turn 2.

Shardless (Mirror)
+2 baleful strix +2desfigure +1notion thief + 1jitte
-3fow -2seize -1hymn to tourach

-> creeping tar pit our mvp and thats why i'm using 2 of them
-> notion thief is a huge blow out, oponents card advantage and cannot be killed with abrupt decay
-> i don't like discarts because the game tend to be very grind.

Reanimator
+2 thoughtseize +1fow +1pierce +2nihil
-2 abrupt -2baleful -2hymn
-> I like to keep some abrupt agains the ever present pithing needle

[matunos]

Honestly though, Lilliana is a house in jund and they don't have a draw 3.

Jund gets its card advantage from Punishing Fire recursion (which also combos with Liliana), Bloodbraid Elf, Sylvan Library, and Loam.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[martijnend]

@topazwarrior: I tried the Jitte a few times. It is really good, so it has earned the spot in de sb :)

I made a few adjustments to my list. Currently running these 75.

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Force of Will
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Baleful Strix
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[skaterajfst]

A quick question about the sideboard.
What's better?
Surgical Extraction or Extripate?

And is really good trade the nihil spellbombs for those?

[martijnend]

A quick question about the sideboard.
What's better?
Surgical Extraction or Extripate?

And is really good trade the nihil spellbombs for those?

Well, I don't think either Surgical Extraction or Extirpate are in the same league as Nihil Spellbomb in this deck. There are three main reasons for this. One is that in the current metagame it is usually better to exile a whole graveyard, which both instants can't do. The second reason is that Extirpate and Extraction are pretty afwul to cascade into. You usually want to use those cards in response to something. Nihil Spellbomb is pretty good to cascade into. Third and very important, Spellbomb draws you a card and that is what this deck is all about.
So, unless you have a very specific local meta, use Spellbombs.

[Trentianoo]

Tournament Report
sdematt's Vancouver Legacy Fall Classic

As a new Legacy player this event was a lot of fun and any comments/suggestions are greatly appreciated to help up my game!
I started off with the list from the latest GP top 8 and made a couple of adjustments. My final list looked like this:

4 - Misty Rainforest
4 - Verdant Catacombs
2 - Polluted Delta
3 - Underground Sea
2 - Bayou
2 - Tropical Island
2 - Creeping Tar Pit
1 - Island
1 - Forest
1 - Swamp
4 - Shardless Agent
4 - Tarmogoyf
4 - Deathrite Shaman
1 - Baleful Strix
4 - Brainstorm
4 - Ancestral Vision
4 - Abrupt Decay
4 - Force of Will
2 - Hymn to Tourach
2 - Thoughtseize
1 - Maelstrom Pulse
3 - Liliana of the Veil
1 - Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard

3 - Golgari Charm
2 - Thoughtseize
2 - Baleful Strix
2 - Flusterstorm
1 - Nihil Spellbomb
1 - Grafdigger’s Cage
1 - Massacre
1 - Toxic Deluge
1 - Disfigure
1 - Duress

I opted to have the 3rd Liliana instead of the 2nd Jace, because I wanted more ways to kill True-Name Nemesis in game 1 that were still effective in other match-ups. It’s worth noting that if I had the mana base I would probably have played Polluted Delta over Misty Rainforest as a 4 of because having double black is essential. Also I would play a Nihil Spellbomb over the Grafdigger's Cage.
I liked having basic lands in my deck as opposed to 2 copies of Wasteland. With basic’s the deck isn’t entirely cold to Blood Moon if you can cast an early Deathrite and cast Abrupt Decay through the Blood Moon. That being said I would consider taking the Island out all together. More often than not if I naturally drew the Island it was hindering my ability to cast my double black spells.

Round 1

Marcel on U/W/R Delver
Game 1 - Marcel leads off with an early Stoneforge getting Jitte as I’m playing some Tarmogoyf’s with Daze protection from my Deathrite’s. Marcel removes 2 Goyf’s with some Swords to Plowshares, but then makes the fatal mistake of playing a second Stoneforge instead of putting his Batterskull into play. I play a Jace while Marcel has no pressure and it puts the game away.
SB: -2 Thoughtseize - 4 Force of Will, +1 Massacre +1 Disfigure +2 Baleful Strix +1 Golgari Charm +1 Toxic Deluge
Game 2 - Marcel has an early Delver and I suspend Ancestral and pass the turn. Delver flips, he hits me and plays Stoneforge getting Batterskull. I Abrupt Decay the Delver on his turn, then play Tarmogoyf on my turn. He Plows Goyf and hits me with Batterskull and plays a True-Name Nemesis. I Brainstorm on my turn revealing another Goyf and a Massacre. I Massacre his board, play my Goyf. He follows with another True-Name but I have the Liliana for it and my Goyf takes me to 1-0. Good Games Marcel! ( Ayyyyaaaaaaa )

1-0

Round 2

Brendan on Imperial Painter
Game 1 - I don’t know what he’s on but he plays Ancient Tomb then passes. At this point I put him on Sneak and Show so I Thoughtseize instead of playing Ancestral Vision. I see that he’s on Imperial Painter and I take Blood Moon. We grind for a little while with some Tarmogoyfs and a suspended Ancestral on my side and Chandra Pyromaster and Sensei’s Divining Top on his. He taps out with 2 cards in hand and passes the turn. I draw 3 off of Ancestral and play a Shardless Agent with 2 mana up for Abrupt Decay, and I Cascade into Hymn to Tourach taking his Imperial Painter and Grindstone in hand. After that I hold up mana for Abrupt Decay and win with Tarmogoyf and Shardless Agent.
SB: -1 Baleful Strix -1 Jace, +2 Thoughtseize
Game 2 - Brendan mulligans to 6 and tries to cast turn 1 Blood Moon but I have the Force of Will. I thoughtseize him to reveal 3 lands and I play a Tarmogoyf next turn to put him on a clock. He plays Ensnaring Bridge after I’ve hit him a couple of times but a pair of Deathrite’s seal the deal.
Good Games Brendan!

2-0

Round 3

James on BANT
Game 1 - James plays turn one GSZ getting Dryad Arbor and I play turn 1 Deathrite. He plays Stoneforge getting Sword of Feast and Famine and the grind has begun. I Thoughtseize getting Batterskull and I have Abrupt Decay’s for his SOFAF and his Jitte, so I play Tarmogoyf and pass. We go through removal left and right and get to a point in the game where a True-Name is beating me down when I’m at 6 but I have a Deathrite Shaman in play. He has Sylvan library but he whiffs for a couple of turns while I play Tarmogoyfs that will kill him so that he’s forced to leave True-Name back. Eventually I have a removal spell for his Stoneforge and the Liliana for his True-Name and a pair of Goyf’s take me there.
SB: -4 Force of Will -2 Thoughtseize, +1 Toxic Deluge +1 Massacre +2 Baleful Strix +2 Golgari Charm
Game 2 - James casts Sylvan Library turn 2 and passes, I play a Baleful Strix. He plays a Loxodon Smiter and passes. I cast Baleful Strix and he follows up with Master of the Wild Hunt. I cast a Toxic Deluge for 4 and hope he doesn’t have a Daze. He doesn’t! We grind out again but I’m too far ahead on cards. Good Games James!

3-0

Round 4

Chad on ANT
Game 1 - Chad knows what I’m on but I have little idea what he’s on so I keep a Deathrite hand with some Goyf’s and Abrupt Decay. I play turn 1 Deathrite and pass and he casts Preordain and passes. I’m thinking he’s on ANT so I hit him for one and play a Goyf. He cantrips some more and passes. I hit him with Goyf for 4 down to 13 ( he’s taken some Fetchland damage ) leaving up Deathrite Shaman. He goes for an Ad Nauseum with 0 in his mana pool and whiffs on rituals until he hits 2 life and then concedes.
SB: -1 Baleful Strix -1 Jace -1 Maelstrom Pulse -4 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thoughtseize + 2 Flusterstorm + 1 Nihil Spellbomb +2 Golgari Charm

Game 2 - I play a turn 1 Deathrite and Chad Cabal Therapy’s my FOW. I don’t have much left so I play a Tarmogoyf and pass. Chad starts can tripping and I start draining his life with Deathrite. He has Carpet of Flowers, hits me with a Xantid Swarm and then tries to go off with Ad Nauseum. He misses again and I go to 4-0. Good Games Chad!
4-0

Round 5

Doug on Affinity
Game 1 - He has a fast Arcbound Ravager and a Cranial Plating to follow up but I have Abrupt Decay and he makes his Ravager bigger by sacrificing Plating and some lands and hits me low. I play a Tarmogoyf and he switches all of his counters to an Ornithopter to get me dead.
SB: -1 Jace -2 Thoughtseize -2 Hymn to Tourach , + 1 Disfigure +1 Golgari Charm +1 Toxic Deluge +2 Baleful Strix

Game 2 - He plays Ancient Tomb into double Vault Skirge turn 1 and I play Deathrite with Maelstrom Pulse in hand. He attacks for 2 and plays Ravager and Ornithoper and passes. I cast Maelstrom Pulse and pass and he plays Cranial Plating and attacks. I Abrupt Decay the Cranial Plating and start removing his other creatures. He starts to draw more lands and soon a Tarmogoyf takes the game for me.

Game 3 - He starts of with some ornithopters and then a Ravager on turn 2 which I Abrupt Decay, so he moves the counters to an Ornithopter and I Abrupt Decay that as well. He gets a Cranial Plating on his last Ornithopter and hits me a couple of times but I’m hitting him right back with a Tarmogoyf. He draws a second plating to put me down to 1 and I draw a Liliana and make him sacrifice his Ornithopter. He bricks on a couple of draw steps and I take the game away. Good Games Doug!

5-0

Round 6 - Top 8

Brett on THE EPIC STORM

Game 1 - I mulligan to 6 with no Discard spell. Risky Business. Brett makes 14 Goblins on turn 1 and kills me that way.
SB: -1 Baleful Strix -1 Jace -2 Abrupt Decay -1 Maelstrom Pulse - 2 Ancestral Vision, +2 Thoughtseize +2 Flusterstorm +1 Nihil Spellbomb +2 Golgari Charm

Game 2 - I mulliganed to 6 again keeping a hand with a FOW but no blue card. Brett casts Probe revealing no disruption and he makes 16 Goblins turn 1 and gets me! Good Games Brett!

Sidenote: I should have sideboarded my Abrupt Decay’s out in favour of keeping an Ancestral Vision and putting another Golgari Charm in. I had Abrupt Decay in my hand in the second game so if it had been a Vision or a Charm I might have had a better chance at winning.

I’m really happy with how the tournament turned out and I had a lot of fun playing Legacy. I really like Shardless BUG because I don’t feel like I have any 100% unwinnable match-ups and I feel I get rewarded for playing tight. I do feel like the 3rd Golgari Charm was unnecessary as I never boarded it in. Maybe 2 is just the right number. I also really like Baleful Strix and would move up to a 2nd in the main if the metagame is full of fair decks. Anyways, thanks for reading and if you have any suggestions I’d love to hear them as I’m new to the format!

[martijnend]

Congrats on your performance, Trentianoo! Well done.
A few questions on your list: you seem to be playing a lot of sweepers. You already mentioned that the third Golgari Charm was extensive. I'm currently at 3 in the sideboard. How do you feel about Massacre? Did it perform ok? Secondly, you have a lot of discard. I'm curious why you brought the single Duress, since you didn't bring it in.

You board pretty much like I'd do against most of the decks. In your R1 I would side out the Jace as well since the chance of it ever hitting the table is pretty low. And even if it hits they probably boarded in REB or Pyroblasts. Perhaps for a second Golgari Charm, because Nemesis is their most difficult to deal with card.
In your R3 I'd want to keep as many Thoughtseizes as I can. Two reasons: Nemesis en Stoneforge. It is always good value when you opponent goes turn 2 Mystic into Batterskull and you play Thoughtseize in your turn to snatch it away. You only get to do this postboard against midrange Stoneforge decks though, because UWR delver is too fast of a clock to consider taking damage yourself as well.
Why didn't you side in Duress in Rounds 4 and 6? Against storm you really want to maximize your counters and discard.

Well, that's all I got. Again, well played and keep it up.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I'm currently trying out tnn in this deck. I've cut a couple of shardless agents because of their competing converted mana costs. Furthermore, shardless agent has been underperforming lately--it often flips over irrelevant cards w/o setup and even if it cascades into a creature, it doesn't really protect your jace/life total as well as it used to given how many tnn's there are running around. On the other hand, tnn just completely blanks most ground assaults by himself and lets you potentially race if they don't have equipment attached to theirs. Here's my current list:

Creatures (15)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
3x True-name Nemesis
2x Baleful Strix
2x Shardless Agent

Spells (23)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
3x Thoughtseize
3x Force of Will
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (23)
4x Underground Sea
3x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Sunken Ruins

No more wastelands because I felt like they were really weakening my manabase with very little profit. I think having more colored lands and a volrath's stronghold is superior most of the time. I was considering changing the tar pit into another stronghold, letting you recur your creatures. 4 of them basically are an engine w/ stronghold (strix/shardless) and tnn's usually ends up going to the gy (countered, discarded, swept)

SB:
1x Force of Will
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Flusterstorm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Pithing Needle

Considering dropping the 2 cages for 1 surgical and 1 golgari charm/toxic deluge.

[Looooooooo]

Right now i'm toying with a list with 4x Probe paired with 2/3 C-Therapy. Maybe is my bias of ANT player but is doing well, and catch off guard most of the time.
As a side note: i play no JTMS nor Tarmo.

- L

[Darkness]

Went Undefeated at my LGS today, details tomorrow 4-0 split in finals, here is list.


1 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Baleful Strix
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Swan Song
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique

[martijnend]

Done two tournaments in the last couple of weeks. One was the Dutch Open Championchips where I went 4-2-1 after a 0-1-1 start (Punishing Fire decks... bleegh).
R1: Punishing Jund 1-1-1 (0-0-1)
R2: Grixis Pyromancer control 1-2 (0-1-1)
R3: UW Miracles 2-0 (1-1-1)
R4: Tezzerator 2-0 (2-1-1)
R5: Goblins 2-1 (3-1-1)
R6: BUG Delver 1-2 (3-2-1)
R7: Team America 2-1 (4-2-1)

The other tournament was a GPT for Paris where I went top 8, but failed against Patriot.
R1: MUD 2-0 (1-0)
R2: BURG Delver 2-1 (2-0)
R3: Tezzerator 2-0 (3-0)
R4: MUD ID (3-0-1) we played for fun and I won this one 2-0.
R5: RUG Delver ID (3-0-2)

Top 8: Patriot Delver 1-2. I lost due to a screw in the second game where I never found a second land after mulliganing to six. The third game I find altogether too much land without cantrips.

My list is simmilar to Darkness's list except that I play 2 Strixes main and 3 Fow's. In the manabase in play 3 waste and 1 Pit and I cut a fetch for a Swamp.
The SB is currently:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Force of Will
1 Disfigure
1 Baleful Strix
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Thoughtseize

[Looooooooo]

I'm a little concern with the manabase:
1) two wasteland seem a little bit random, to be relevant and not dies to variance wastes needs to be 3 at least IMO
2) 2 tar pit are debatable, i love the card and i play as a one-of, just because in the first 4 turns without a DRS a tapped land is very relevant in a fast-paced format
3) no basics, i always played at least 2 swamp, 1 forest and 1-2 island just because i hate to lose to wasteland, seeing how much is popular right now, so i'm genuinely curious on how it goes.

- L

[martijnend]

I'm a little concern with the manabase:
1) two wasteland seem a little bit random, to be relevant and not dies to variance wastes needs to be 3 at least IMO
2) 2 tar pit are debatable, i love the card and i play as a one-of, just because in the first 4 turns without a DRS a tapped land is very relevant in a fast-paced format
3) no basics, i always played at least 2 swamp, 1 forest and 1-2 island just because i hate to lose to wasteland, seeing how much is popular right now, so i'm genuinely curious on how it goes.

- L

I agree about the manabase. After the first tournament I played with the deck I switched one Tar Pit for a Wasteland en never went back. Two wastelands is, as you rightfully say, insufficient. And I had a Tar Pit in my opener way too often.
The deck doesn't easily lose to wasteland. The deck usually recovers pretty well from being land light in the first turns. The real trouble when you're not playing basics is Blood Moon! I play a single Swamp in my 75 because of Blood Moon. That gives you an out with Deathrite Shaman (either as a wincon or to cast Decay). I can't really afford to play more basics because it is a very greedy deck.

[matunos]

I was playing with a basic Forest and a basic Swamp. These let you Decay a Blood Moon, and/or cast a Deathrite under one, and offer some resilience to Wasteland. I dropped one of the Tar Pits and either a fetch or an Underground to support this (I've since broken the deck apart to play Esperblade).

Maybe sticking an Island in is possible but I'm doubtful, unless you're willing to drop the Wastelands. The Wastelands are useful though, especially against matchups with Maze of Ith or Dark Depths, and with all the filtering and card advantage you get, not at all random.

With Deathrites, I don't think you need the same basic land count as say for Esperblade (which is typically 4), and given the variety of colors in your spells, I think you'll suffer a lot of color choking if you go much beyond 2-3.

[Looooooooo]

Basic would choke the mana base a lot less than wastes.
I'm on the basic side (w/o Wastes) because i think that running basics, with the pros numbered before, in the long term would win you far more matches than wastelands.
We have ton of card advantage that could end in removals/disruption/threats/counters and i would count on this much more than a random land denial (i cut blackhole for the same reason after some testing).

- L

[Darkness]

Personally, I do not run any basics and am running 2 Wastelands and 2 CTP. My reasons are as such,

1. My meta game sees little to no Blood Moon effects: I understand that people are afraid of this deck and rightfully so, it's probably one of our worst match ups. A combo deck that attacks our greed mana base sounds scary but the truth is that even in a big SCG Open or GP, you're not going to see many of these decks. Sure you may see one or 2 in 16 rounds, considering you would make it to day 2 in a GP, however the pay off for playing the greedy mana base to verse decks that you will be seeing more than once. The pay off for having a greedy mana base to versus Delver decks, TNN decks, Jace decks, and Combo decks infinitely out ways trying to play around the boogie man for our precious BUG deck. Also, even if a Blood Moon effect is cast you still have Force or counter magic, targeted discard, Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman all for games 2 and 3. Seems like a lot of work to protect for a bad matchup when we do have some answers.
2. My meta sees little Wasteland Stifle decks: With the rise of UWR Delver and decline of RUG Delver, people are starting to move away from the Stifle//Wasteland package to disrupt mana bases. It is more important for UWR to progress towards using their mana to impact the board than to reactively play a 1CC threat and tempo you out. Sure they will have wasteland every now and then but even against RUG Delver I would rather be cut off of 1 color than two on turn 2-3. IE you have Underground Sea and Bayou vs either of those lands in combination with a swamp or forest. I used to play one swamp in my main for the RUG Delver match up, but with the decline I do not feel it's necessary.
3. My Meta has a decent amount of Stoneblade Variants: I LOVE VERSING THIS DECK! Regardless of TNN printing, I feel this is still our best matchup. There's nothing busted that they are doing that we don't do better. The card advantage that we have pulls ahead of them as quickly as a TNN does for them against other decks. My last LGS I faced 4 Stoneblade variants and went undefeated. A basic in this matchup is virtually worthless since-----
A: Most don't play Wasteland.
B: If they do, they will not usually try to mana screw you since they are trying to progress their board state to using SFM activations, casting Jace or TNN and equipping.
C: We need as many colors to fight against them due to the heavy color usage of our deck.

With that said I do like having the extra Tar Pit and the 2 Wastelands here for the following.
A: I can afford to play a turn 1 tap land since the match is generally slower than a delver matchup and the need to use your mana every turn is not a necessary, though important.
B: Tar Pit kills Jace and TNN cannot block it.
C: An opponent with wasteland will usually waste a Tar Pit rather than color screwing us due to the threat of Tar Pit.
D: Using wasteland to color screw them is more valuable then them us due to the importance of casting Jace.
E: Cutting them off of of Batterskull casting mana after the game has gone long. I cannot emphasize the relevance of this enough. By far a real reason to play wasteland!

4: My meta has a health amount of Combo in it: I wouldn't say any more than normal, however it does have it's Sneak and Show, Storm, Elves, Reanimator amongst others. As mentioned before, having access to as mana colors here as possible is important and drawing a basic man not be horrible but not having basics makes your mulligans so much better. The Tar Pit is not the best having two but I like it in all other match ups. Also color screwing them early on, especially games 2 and 3 when you have the proper tools to battle them, is much effective than against fair decks since stripping them of their resources is our best method of success. I don't feel I want 3 Wastelands since it does mess with the mana a little too much for my taste. Two has seemed worked very well for me against fair and unfair decks with my results.

Lastly, I would like to conclude the following: I am basing my arguments on my personal meta as well as the SCG Open series. I understand that different metas call for different choices and respect that. If my meta moved back to Delver Stifle strategies I would probably consider the basic Swamp I once used and possibly another basic. I understand that a lot of success not only has to do with a winning formula but confidence. I have played a lot of tournament magic in the last two years and can honestly say that any successes I had all involved me being conformable with my deck list. The lists may not have been optimal, but I knew it that what I had could get me there with what I would be expecting to face. Finally I would say take your experience and use it to evolve a list you know. My opinions on this debate come from knowledge, preference, data, and my experiencing piloting my favorite legacy deck of all time. I have played a lot of games with this deck and understand what I need to win, use the information, including your loses to make a judgement call. I would advise anyone with a similar metagame as mine, to try the configuration of 2 CPT 2 WL and no basics, if it doesn't work tweak as such.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Everything Darkness has said is spot on. I used to play this deck a lot and eventually realized that if you're worried about Blood Moon or stifle/wasteland strategies you're playing the wrong deck. Blood Moon decks like painter are a such a small percentage of the general meta that you don't have to really worry about them, especially since Shardless BUG doesn't have a target on its head anymore like it did over the summer. If you guys must play basics I would play no more than two (usually a swamp and forest).

[Looooooooo]

I love discussing about mana base, IMO is the most difficult and also important key to success for a deck, rather than minor change in well-oiled decklists :smile:
I agree on the meta call for basics while not completely sold on the wastes side i'd like to dig into the CTP argument:
-How many one drop do you have and how much important is to play them on the first turn?
-Do you keep hand with 2 land, one being the Tar pit? on the draw or on the play? with BS or DRS?
-How much do you activate conservatively the CTP? Does it eat lot of removals/wastes?
-How much do you regret to have/not have drawn it, respectively, during the most common MU?

- L

[Darkness]

Here are the results I have had since I started playing this deck in April of 2013. These results are my from my LGS, an SCG event and from a few other random tournaments.

49-26-2

2-1 TES
2-0 Mono White Human ( Not DnT )
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
2-1 MUD
2-0 Enchantress
2-0 MUD
2-0 Reanimator
2-0 Goblins
1-2 RUG Delver
2-1 BUG Death's Shadow
1-2 Death and Taxes
0-2 Manaless Dredge
2-0 Punishing Maverick
2-0 UWb Miracles
0-2 UR Delver
2-0 Jund
0-2 Waterfall Cascade
2-0 Deathblade
2-1 UR Delver
0-2 Affinity
2-0 UR Delver
1-0-1 UWr Miracles
1-2 Omniscience
2-0 Reanimator
1-2 Goblins
0-2 Dark Depths
2-1 Goblins
1-2 Jund
2-1 ANT
2-0 Esper Blade TNN
2-0 Patriot no TNN
1-0-1 Esper Blade TNN
2-0 Patriot no TNN

[Looooooooo]

Here are the results I have had since I started playing this deck in April of 2013. These results are my from my LGS, an SCG event and from a few other random tournaments.

49-26-2

2-1 TES
2-0 Mono White Human ( Not DnT )
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
2-1 MUD
2-0 Enchantress
2-0 MUD
2-0 Reanimator
2-0 Goblins
1-2 RUG Delver
2-1 BUG Death's Shadow
1-2 Death and Taxes
0-2 Manaless Dredge
2-0 Punishing Maverick
2-0 UWb Miracles
0-2 UR Delver
2-0 Jund
0-2 Waterfall Cascade
2-0 Deathblade
2-1 UR Delver
0-2 Affinity
2-0 UR Delver
1-0-1 UWr Miracles
1-2 Omniscience
2-0 Reanimator
1-2 Goblins
0-2 Dark Depths
2-1 Goblins
1-2 Jund
2-1 ANT
2-0 Esper Blade TNN
2-0 Patriot no TNN
1-0-1 Esper Blade TNN
2-0 Patriot no TNN

No Sneak&Tell, only Omni? Strange, i wish i could play in this meta, apart from Dredge which require a specific SB, an expert storm player and S&T are still my worst MU with D&T and find an adequate room in the SB to for all this MU isn't easy.
At this moment what is you sideboard? Some smart thoughts on a particular MU?

- L

[DragoFireheart]

I have the urge to try and shove the CounterTop combination into this deck. More card advantage seems fun, but it has no impact on the board.

[Megadeus]

I have the urge to try and shove the CounterTop combination into this deck. More card advantage seems fun, but it has no impact on the board.

I got beaten up on by a guy playing counter balance. I think he was more in a control deck with walkers and no goyfs.

[Looooooooo]

I have the urge to try and shove the CounterTop combination into this deck. More card advantage seems fun, but it has no impact on the board.

How many spots are you willing to give to this strategy 6, 7 or 8? Hard choices ahead...

You want to keep the Agents? Here are the cons IMO:
- SDT seems cool for preparing the cascade but playing 4x (which is the right number in CounterTop decks) and cascading into it seems just bad: is just like casting a stix and draw it, not much CA
- cascading in balance is just plain bad, i want to cascade into something that affects the board right now or that gives me insane CA.

Not to mentions that 1cmc cards count is too low in the typical lists.

I would to in a hard control route: no agents and goys --> countertop, spell pierce/snare and IoK/T-seize. But this seems just underwhelming compared to miracles or just esper CounterTop...

- L

[mishima_kazuya]

I have no idea where to post this, so I'll start here I guess. :confused:

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculpter

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Daze

Sideboard:
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's JItte
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Duress


From a few suggestions, I took the list that Gerrard Fabiano and Reid Duke brewed up and upped the TNN count to 4 in the 75. I also replaced some of the sweepers with Marsh Casualties, since Toxic Deluge and the like seem like a nonbo in a deck with a bunch of X/1s.
So I took the above list and made top 4 of a local 64 person tournament.
Round 1: Mono white Solider Tribal
Win match
Round 2: Deathblade
Draw match
Round 3: Punishing Jund
Win match
Round 4: Omnitell
Win match
Round 5: Goblins
Win match
Round 6: ID
Quarterfinals: Jund
Win match

MVP: Marsh Casualties and Spell Pierce
LVP: Daze

Notes: I had to mulligan a lot of 1 landers, so it may help to add a 23rd land. Perhaps a Creeping Tar Pit? Despite Daze usually being the worst card in the deck, it feels like a nessicity (sp?) to make up for the lack of cheap interactive spells(StP, Lightning Bolt, Force of Will, etc). One could argue for Spell Pierce instead of Daze, which may be worth trying.

[Razorwynd]

Certainly not here in "Shardless BUG." I believe there is a midrange BUG thread in "Established Decks" that is much more appropriate. Glad the deck worked out well for you though.

EDIT:

Here is a link
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)

[DragoFireheart]

I don't like removing Shardless Agent. I think for this deck it's vastly superior to TNN. If we were running white for SFM then I'd reconsider but in that case I'd just play Deathblade.

Plus our anti-TNN cards wouldn't play well if we also played TNN. A 3/1 isn't scary when we have Lilly/Golgari Charm/Toxic Deluge. I'd rather get a 2/2 and draw three cards and drown the SFM/TNN player in card advantage.

[Darkness]

Thinking about Meta gaming with all the hype for TNN and Spirit of the Lab by running a MD 1 of Night of Soul's Betrayal? Thoughts?

[Razorwynd]

Thinking about Meta gaming with all the hype for TNN and Spirit of the Lab by running a MD 1 of Night of Soul's Betrayal? Thoughts?

that is probably better in other non-shardless versions of the deck… perhaps the more traditional BUG control decks

[Darkness]

that is probably better in other non-shardless versions of the deck… perhaps the more traditional BUG control decks

I do agreed that it is better in a control BUG deck, I'm just looking for a meta game call first couple of weeks after TNN and Spirit of the Lab are legal. I don't wanna play a slow variant of BUG control against the combo decks in the field, I like the pressure Shardless BuG puts against non Spirit of the Lab decks. My logic is it kills most creatures in which both decks have homes for, specifically DnT which has a lot of hype with the printing of SotL. Here is a list of creatures it kills.

True Name Nemesis
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Snapcaster Mage
Dark Confidant
Thailia, Guardian of Thraben
Mother of Runes
Flickerwhisp
Phyrexian Revoker
Mangara of Corondor
Lingering Soul Tokens
Aven Mind Censor
Delver of Secrets (Unflipped)
Grim Lavamancer
Birchlore Ranger
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elf
Dryad Arbor
Heritage Druid
Elvish Visionary
Quirion Ranger
Wirewood Symbiote
Nimble Mongoose (No Threshold)
Noble Hierarch
Scryab Ranger

I have a feeling the card is going to go over the top against some bad matchup and solidify even to good match ups game one. AS I stated before, I don't expect this to be a permanent choice, just a meta call to blindside people. Obviously this card is trash against combo, however I did remove my 1 of MD Baleful Strix to put this card in, which was a virtual dead card against combo anyways.

[Chaam]

So I am picking up this deck and should have it completed by Monday. I was wondering if anyone knows of any good "How to play" the deck videos/articles. I have been searching the net for SCG/GP games and have played a budget version a couple of times and I get the overall game plan but probably not some of the other common/intricate lines. I have seen many of the SCG Legacy matches featuring Shardless BUG.

My list:

Creatures (15)
3x Baleful Strix
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman

Sorceries (8)
2x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ancestral Vision

Instants (12)
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will

Planeswalkers (3)
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Wasteland
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
2x Flusterstorm
2x Thoughtseize
1x Hymn to Tourach
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Golgari Charm
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Massacre
1x Engineered Plague


Does the decklist/sideboard seem fine?

MB, I added a strix over jace since there are so many delver/spell pierce/daze decks running around. I also added a 4th FoW so I can have a better g1 vs combo. How good is mb pulse?

I may want to find room in the sb for Vendilion Clique and/or Pernicious Deed (most likely removing both edicts).

I am really excited to finish this deck.

Thanks.

[rancOr_]

My thoughts:(not playing shardless bug,but esper/IP)Blood moon is indeed the worst case scenario, and there is little u can do about it. However I think that if u were to run 2wastelands...Why not replace them with 2basics?(island/swamp probably). I think it has a lot more value then those 2wastelands will ever provide. Just being able to go swamp/drs is alrdy so huge vs these decks since that means u get to decay moon etc.. There are numerous other situations vs different decks but I think u get it. You just gotta ask urself if I'd rather have 2wastelands or 2basics.. I'd know the answer;) greetings

[martijnend]

So I am picking up this deck and should have it completed by Monday. I was wondering if anyone knows of any good "How to play" the deck videos/articles. I have been searching the net for SCG/GP games and have played a budget version a couple of times and I get the overall game plan but probably not some of the other common/intricate lines. I have seen many of the SCG Legacy matches featuring Shardless BUG.

My list:

Creatures (15)
3x Baleful Strix
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman

Sorceries (8)
2x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ancestral Vision

Instants (12)
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will

Planeswalkers (3)
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Wasteland
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
2x Flusterstorm
2x Thoughtseize
1x Hymn to Tourach
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Golgari Charm
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Massacre
1x Engineered Plague


Does the decklist/sideboard seem fine?

MB, I added a strix over jace since there are so many delver/spell pierce/daze decks running around. I also added a 4th FoW so I can have a better g1 vs combo. How good is mb pulse?

I may want to find room in the sb for Vendilion Clique and/or Pernicious Deed (most likely removing both edicts).

I am really excited to finish this deck.

Thanks.

First of all about the list. It seems pretty solid. However, I think Pulse is needed mb. It is your one and only out against random cards such as Elspeth and Karn. They will tear us apart, so having something to answer them is essential.
In the sb I question two cards: Massacre and Loam (though I was a great fan of Loam in this deck before). The last few tournaments I played with Loam it hasn't been useful and has been dead in hand a few times. The massacre seems too much when you already have two Golgari Charms and a Plague. What mu do you want it in that isn't already covered by those spells? I'd probably cut those for Clique and Deed if you want them. I'm no fan of either in this deck.
You've got the standard manabase, which is fine but can be tweaked. I found the second Tar Pit extremely annoying. It was in my opener far too often and you really don't want it before the midgame. I cut one for the third Wasteland. Don't be fooled into believing that Wasteland is subpar in this deck. In the current meta with all those tempo decks it is very efficient. As RancOr_ rightly says Blood Moon is a bomb against your manabase, so you really want a Swamp. I decided to cut a Sea for it since you don't really need four. This means you must ofcourse maximize on your black fetches. Be sure to fetch for your Swamp if you suspect Blood Moon might make an appearance. Keep in mind that a few decks sideboard it as well.

As for strategies, it is really difficult to give good advice since our deck offers so many choices that in every game you might want a different approach to the game. I will give it a try though.
Aggro: survive the first turns with Strix and Decay. Then stabilize and take control. DRS is golden vs goblins.
Tempo: vitally important to make your land drops. Be sure to stabilize before running into double bolt range when playing UWR or RUG. BUG is easily our best mu in this department.
Control: Keep making them answer your threats. Since you have the same amount (if not more) card advantege than them you will eventually win this race. Play as many Liliana's as you can after sb.
Midrange: This depends completely on your hand and the board state, so no global thinking here. Anything with the punishing grove combo is a bad mu.
Combo: Disrupt them as much as you while providing a clock. Pretty straightforward here.
Prison: You will be the aggressor in this mu so try to beat them to pulp before long. In general we have too diverse an arsenal to answer (Jace, Goyf, DRS are three different wincons).

That's pretty much it. Hope you'll do well with it.

[Mortox]

@martijnend, just keep in mind the lack of synergy between Shardless Agent + Flusterstorm. I believe most lists forgo the cheap counterspells as to not waste cascades, instead opting for more discard (or if absolutely necessary, something like Mindbreak Trap) although I haven't been staying very current with Shardless BUG lists as of late.

[martijnend]

@Mortox: agreed about the Shardless into Flusterstorm possibility. It is a possibility, but most of the time you'll set up your cascades with bs or jace. It comes up very few times that you'll blindly cascade into Flusterstorm.
In the current meta the power of FS is far greater than MBT for it has a wider range of targets. It's especially noticable against S&T decks, Reanimator and some tempo strategies. MBT would be a pure anticombo piece.

[goblinroughtider]

I am new to playing Shardless BUG, looking for advise on Sideboard for going into a unknown meta.

[Lejay]

You have 34 pages of information.

[Holly]

You have 34 pages of information.

But..but.. then he'd have to read them all of them..or at least skim through till he finds something about boarding. Don't you think thats to much? Thats at least as bad as reading the primer in some threads.

[goblinroughtider]

But..but.. then he'd have to read them all of them..or at least skim through till he finds something about boarding. Don't you think thats to much? Thats at least as bad as reading the primer in some threads.

Sweet, thanks for the advise.

[Holly]

Sweet, thanks for the advise.

I apoligize I was a bit snappy about it. Though it does help reading between and asking concrete questions and not just "built me a sideboard" specially if one doesn't even know the maindeck.

[ivanpei]

I'm new to this deck but I have a fair idea of how it works. One question, does Shardless Agent get boarded out against combo? The first to come out is obviously the 4 Decays, then it's either the Agent or The Strix.

So do you -4 Shardless Agents and + XX Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce. Or do you keep the Shardless Agents in and board is XX Thoughtseize/Hymn. I feel that Upping the discard count and cascading into them is pretty strong. Baleful strix is a poor clock for 2 mana, so it seems likely to get cut. However With so much discard, if your hand is Force-less, you are dead to a topdecked combo piece.

Thoughts?

[Valtrix]

Due to the increase of SFM decks and True-Name Nemesis, I'm not sure that Baleful Strix is very good anymore unfortunately. I probably wouldn't even run any right now. That said, he can be a meta call if you have a lot of decks where he might still be good against. You can also note this trend from the Shardless BUG deck which got 8th at the SCG open yesterday which contains no baleful strixes: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63429 .

Shardless agent isn't great vs. combo but I think you need to keep enough blue cards in to consistently be able to cast force of will. So the question isn't really do you want Shardless Agent, it's more "How many blue cards do I want for force?"

[DragoFireheart]

I'm new to this deck but I have a fair idea of how it works. One question, does Shardless Agent get boarded out against combo? The first to come out is obviously the 4 Decays, then it's either the Agent or The Strix.

So do you -4 Shardless Agents and + XX Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce. Or do you keep the Shardless Agents in and board is XX Thoughtseize/Hymn. I feel that Upping the discard count and cascading into them is pretty strong. Baleful strix is a poor clock for 2 mana, so it seems likely to get cut. However With so much discard, if your hand is Force-less, you are dead to a topdecked combo piece.

Thoughts?

I assume that Agent always gets boarded out for Combo so you can shove massive amounts of cheap counters and discard into the deck.

Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Hymn, Turn 3 Lilly or Goyf w/Flusterstorm with FoW backup is pretty nasty for any combo deck. Top-decked combo piece is meaningless if their hand was empty to begin with.


Due to the increase of SFM decks and True-Name Nemesis, I'm not sure that Baleful Strix is very good anymore unfortunately. I probably wouldn't even run any right now. That said, he can be a meta call if you have a lot of decks where he might still be good against. You can also note this trend from the Shardless BUG deck which got 8th at the SCG open yesterday which contains no baleful strixes: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63429 .

Wonder why Jace got dropped. He can't touch TNN, but he's still card advantage and can bounce Germ tokens/Delvers.

[ivanpei]

The way I see it, that new list on scg only has 18 blue cards main which is a really low number. Also the curve is quite high with Shardless, Cliques and Lilies. There seems to be a clog at the 3 drop slot. It also runs 1 more land than normal which is 23 and that seems reasonable given zero Baleful Strix and the higher curve.

My opinion is that even though Baleful Strix isn't great against TNN, it still does alot of little things like upping the blue count, without clogging your high drop slots (like Jace and Clique). It also cantrips, allowing you to play less land (22) and when drawn I always find it useful because it replaces itself and has a meaningful body against Delvers.

It's never great, but it's never terrible as well. I think I'll keep running them to smooth the curve and keep the blue count high as well as for the cantripping effect and aggro busting abilities.

As for Shardless Agent going out, then I guess Flusterstorms and Cliques will come in to keep the Blue Count high enough.

[martijnend]

The first cards to drop against decks like ANT would be Decay and Strix. The next one would be Jace, since 4 mana is quite a lot against any combo deck. Shardless is not exactly insane against combo mu's, but it still provides a clock and card advantage and the only card you don't want to cascade into is flusterstorm.
I've never been surprised by the performance of clique in this deck. It just doesn't seem to work for me. Strix on the other hand is beyond good, even with Nemesis and Mystic. As said it replaces itself and blocks Delvers, Goyfs, Tombstalkers or the odd Emrakul (yes, I've won more than a few rounds against Emrakul decks because of Strix blocking).

[j-flo]

I played with a standard Shardless BUG list at a local tournament this past Sunday.
Round 1: W 2-1 vs Merfolk
Round 2: W 2-1 vs Sneak and Show
Round 3: W 2-0 vs BUG Delver
Round 4: W 2-0 vs UWR Delver
Round 5: ID into top 4
In the end top 4 just decided to split all of the store credit.
Despite my success in the tournament, I felt that Jace and Hymn were kind of bad all day long. I never even attempted to cast a Jace, and only resolved a Hymn once. With all of these blue decks running around loading up on Spell Pierce and Daze, I am honestly considering running 4 Thoughtseize and 0 Hymn in the main. Liliana won me every game I casted her in, and Baleful Strix seemed pretty solid for me throughout the day. I feel a minimum of 2 Baleful Strix is still needed because of how it can help us in the Delver match ups. If we don't draw an Abrupt Decay, we have no fliers to stop a flipped Delver. Combine that with how easily Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana can be countered and it is hard to recover without those Strixes.

[ATenjum]

Also the curve is quite high with Shardless, Cliques and Lilies.
No 4 drops means the curve is lower than the stock list.

[o_boogie]

@ATenjum

I was intrigued by your list from Nashville, but I have a few questions:

How did you find the combo matchup going more all-in on the discard plan?
Did you miss having Flusterstorm?
Is a turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity game over?

Thanks.

[ivanpei]

@ATenjum

I was intrigued by your list from Nashville, but I have a few questions:

How did you find the combo matchup going more all-in on the discard plan?
Did you miss having Flusterstorm?
Is a turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity game over?

Thanks.

This. I see you are on the cascade plan post-board against combo. Let us know your thoughts. I'm deciding on what type of board to run right now as well. A tap out/discard/cascade anti combo type or a mana open for flusterstorm and no cascade type.

Yea I feel strix does alot of little things and that's great. The 1 power against combo is not too hot though.

[ATenjum]

@ATenjum

I was intrigued by your list from Nashville, but I have a few questions:

How did you find the combo matchup going more all-in on the discard plan?
Did you miss having Flusterstorm?
Is a turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity game over?

Thanks.
I like being proactive and mana efficient against combo. Holding up counterspells such as Flusterstorm stymies your board development, where as the discard + dudes plan allows you to use all of your mana every turn. Shardless Agent becomes actively good, and allows you to board out your bad cards instead like Abrupt Decay and Ancestral Vision.

In my experiences, Leyline is not very common out of combo sideboards anymore. However, even they do have it, I still have the full playset of Force of Wills, Phyrexian Revokers to name Sneak Attack/Griselbrand/LED, Liliana's +1, and Wasteland to disrupt them, backed up by pressure.

I do regret not playing Baleful Strix in some quantity, and will probably play 2 in the maindeck, moving the Cliques to the sideboard, or vice-versa.

[martijnend]

Hey all,

Just returned from Paris. Played this deck ofcourse.
Result: 33rd place with an 11-3-1 record. I will be posting a report some time this week, but this is the overview.

The list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
===============
3 Disfigure
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Force of Will

I decided to go with 3 Baleful Strixes because that card is always good. I dropped the second Jace for it. During the trials I tried to go without Hymns, but that didn't work out so they came back in. And I dropped the stock list Spellbombs (which are very good) for Cages to improve the matchup against Elves, which consequently I didn't see all weekend.

The rounds:
R1: bye 2-0 (1-0)
R2: Mono-R Sneak Attack 2-0 (2-0)
R3: Punishing Jund 2-0 (3-0)
R4: Junk 2-0 (4-0)
R5: Death & Taxes 2-1 (5-0)
R6: BUG Delver 2-0 (6-0)
R7: Punishing Jund 1-1-1 (6-0-1)
R8: Esper Miracles 2-0 (7-0-1)
R9: Sneak & Show: 0-2 (7-1-1)
=============
R10: BURG Delver 0-2 (7-2-1)
R11: UW Miracles 2-1 (8-2-1)
R12: BUG Delver 2-0 (9-2-1)
R13: Esper Stoneblade 2-1 (10-2-1)
R14: UWR Delver 1-2 (10-3-1)
R15: UWR Delver 2-0 (11-3-1)

The deck is far from dead. Any questions about the list or mu's, feel free to ask.

[ivanpei]

I like thay list, I'll be playing something similar. A few questions, why md Pulse? Seems like another Liliana would be better against TNN? Or was it a meta call as another out to Jace/Entreat from Miracles? Looking at the GP trials winners, there were alot of miracles.

And the 1 swamp instead of a 2nd Tarpit? How did that work out? I can see its value by being able to go fetch, swamp DRS against a Blood Moon deck, then being able to cast everything in the deck. But seems narrow Imo. I like the board, but would swap the SB liliana with the MD pulse as I feel liliana is more versatile since she destroys combo, control and aggro.

I see you played against UWR delver in the final rounds. How did that match up feel? Also congrats on your finish! 33 is something to be proud of!

Sent from my C6802 using Tapatalk

[martijnend]

I like thay list, I'll be playing something similar. A few questions, why md Pulse? Seems like another Liliana would be better against TNN? Or was it a meta call as another out to Jace/Entreat from Miracles? Looking at the GP trials winners, there were alot of miracles.

And the 1 swamp instead of a 2nd Tarpit? How did that work out? I can see its value by being able to go fetch, swamp DRS against a Blood Moon deck, then being able to cast everything in the deck. But seems narrow Imo. I like the board, but would swap the SB liliana with the MD pulse as I feel liliana is more versatile since she destroys combo, control and aggro.

I see you played against UWR delver in the final rounds. How did that match up feel? Also congrats on your finish! 33 is something to be proud of!

Sent from my C6802 using Tapatalk

Thanks.
You are quite right to question the md Pulse. Liliana is a far better card and has won me a lot of matches. However, miracles and stoneblade are decks and Pulse is the easiest out against Batterskull, the angels and some other troublesome permanents. Sunday it destroyed a Moat for me, for example.
The Swamp is concession to Blood Moon. I never liked the second Tar Pit and it was the first card I dropped when I picked up the deck a year ago. It became the fourth Sea at first, but this is far better. That's the reason that the list is maximalised on the black fetches.

The Delver mu's are pretty good with the BUG version being very, very positive. The other Delver decks are harder because of Lightning Bolt. You have to work harder to stabilize before you are in double bolt range. I'd say that the first match is slightly in their favour and after boarding we turn it around. However, if during any game they can't put you under early pressure you'll easily win that one.

[ivanpei]

Cheers for the answers. I agree in general I feel UWR delver is a more powerful deck than BUG delver and a harder matchup.

Bug delver has too many spells that cost 2 mana or more. Imo abrupt decay should not belong in a delver deck because it's not efficient. Same thing for discard, by running discard, it's a tempo loss compared to counters like spell pierce which is tempo gain.

I feel in general UWR delver is a purer tempo delver deck with a good midrange plan with equipment while bug delver is a meta deck that's good against UWR delver and Combo.

My 2 cents.

[infiniteJ]

Sad to see this deck go from DTB to the third page. I started legacy playing RUG and then switched to Team America after deathrite/decay were printed. The problem was I would have trouble closing without lightning bolts vs stoneblade and miracles. Delver just felt very inconsistent and a way worse play than turn 1 deathrite. Also, the games would go on a bit longer and there were no random stifle blowouts so daze become less consistent. For those reasons, I switched to Shardless.

I played it yesterday in SCG Atl to a top 8. Here's the list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=64130
Even though I have loved hymning people since when I first started playing magic 17 yrs ago, the deck felt glutted on two drops. Thoughtseize was ok but cascading into it was the worst. I saw Lejay advocating and doing well with a build without any discard and gave it a go. I also adopted the sideboard spice of meddling mage/scrubland from a daily list of his.

I didn't take many detailed notes but I'll give you the run down. Some of the later rounds are much clearer to me. I likely will mix up some of the earlier rounds. I was sideboarding on the fly so am open to suggestions.

R1 Vs UWR Delver

This matchup has always felt very good. The life gained from STP helps mitigate their bolts and them not having stifle also helps. Goyf being bigger than batterskull makes a big difference. Just hit land drops to avoid giving their dazes and spell pierces value. Watch out for the rare sword of feast and famine post board. I played around spell pierce with lilliana and rode her home in one game. Forced a swords on goyf and rode that home in another. I believe I had a deluge blow out here as well. SB +Golgari Charm, +scrubland +Notion theif +2 thoughtseize; -2 jace -2 force of will -1 AV.

R2 Vs UW RIP Miracles

G1 Another excellent matchup. After playing it twice vs alphastryk on Wednesday, I felt very comfortable with my list and game decisions. I kept a double abrupt decay deahtrite brainstorm hand (not knowing he was on miracles) which happened to be very good vs his double top double counterbalance hand. He enlightened tutored for a rest in peace to slow down my offense and I was able to find a third decay. This was very very lucky in that he had Helm floating on top. G2 I don't remember much but I don't remember it being close. I think I had lilliana and multiple visions resolve. He was a very nice opponent. He even was optimistic about having time to grab food which is so rare when playing miracles. SB +Golgari Charm +pithing Needle +notion theif +1 duress +1 meddling mage; -2 deluge -2 baleful strix -1 goyf. I opted to swap a goyf for a mage to maybe help close a game under rest in peace and shut off a card he tutors for since I knew he was running multiples. Maybe wrong. I may have sided out a land here too.

R3 Vs Reanimator

A local friend who always plays combo at the weekly events. I wasn't sure what variety though (lately belcher and ANT have been his favorites I think). I mulled a decent opener w/ no force no clock into a deathrite/lilliana based hand. He led on island ponder, so I put him on ANT. Unfortunately, when I tapped out for lilliana t2, he forced it, then proceeded to careful study/reanimate a griselbrand. Fortunately, I followed up with Baleful Strix. There was a trade, and then he exhumed both back. I followed up with a second Baleful strix. Deathrite removed his elesh norn from the gy and then his Ashen rider. And he quickly realized he was hardlocked out of the game no matter how many cards he drew. G2 He went all in show and telling elesh norn-I put in Strix again. I then played lilliana and meddling mage and rode them home vs his empty grip. SB YARDSALE SWAP -4 vision -4 decay -2 jace -Deluge -wasteland; +everything

R4 Vs Jund.

My opponent was a 5min late and received a game loss. He was very apologetic about it, and I assured him he was punished more than enough for it by the judges. He opened on deathrite into lilliana. I opened on deathrite as well. I was able to force his lilliana and play my own. He was stalled on a mana with only wastelands to support his overgrown tomb. I kept my deathrite up to block his. He played multiple goyfs but I was able to tick up lilliiana for another sacrifice, then play a second for a third sacrifice. At this point, he was loathe to wasteland me as he was likely holding multiple bloodbraids. This allowed me to play jace and take it home. He did not complain once during this match about his mana screw or not getting to play g3. Hats off.

R5 Vs Sneak and Show

I almost managed to steal g1 with NO disruption. He led island ponder. Second Island Ponder. Misty fetch. He git probed me and brainstormed a bunch. At this point, I figured he was on Monoblue. He forced a lilliana, then show and telled an emrakul. I followed up with a Deluge for 15. He then played a bare sneak attack with no cards. My Tarpit went to work putting him to a low life but I never found a goyf to close things out. Cardless, he pondered, shuffled, then hit the griselbrand-Which I should emphasize is not really very lucky considering the high density of cantrips he could also hit. He played well this game but was clearly under the weather which I think affected his game play in g2. G2 My thoughtseize is pierced. My t2 deathrite+ duress snags his sneak attack. He probes me and sees my notion thief. The following turn he brainstorms into my 4 open mana, realizes his mistake, and has to fetch/spell pierce his own brainstorm. This rattled him a bit. I play lilliana and meddling mage I think and he quickly scoops with no way to dig for answers. G3 I see him swap 2 more cards which I assume are pyroclasms. He forces my t1 thoughtseize. He show and tells t2. I have to think do I put in deathrite so I can play t2 lilliana. At this point, I'm hoping for an emrakul. It's actually just a sneak attack. He has two cards. I untap, play needle on sneak attack. I think land a lilliana. to go w/ double deathrite. I soon draw a mage and name pyroclasm to represent lethal on board. He has monsters in hand still and is drawing for echoing truth but I have force backup. SB -4 decay -tarpit -deluges -2 goyf -2 jace -2 visions +everything but the graveyard hate.

R6 Vs Rug Eventual winner and my quarterfinals opponent.

G1 I mull to five and get wastelanded. I play a goyf to stare down his but he has dismember. G2 I mull to 6 and keep a land heavy deathrite hand. I proceed to have my deathrite submerged and draw it again and draw more lands and a goyf. He opens on delver goyf goyf mongoose or something. I have my lone goyf dismembered again. Afterwards, we discussed the matchup a bit since I used to play RUG. He shows me he sideboarded out stifles which I advised him not to do for good reasons. This would have the opportunity to haunt me as I commented it might to him at the time. +scrubland charm spellbomb and theif -2 force, -2 jace.

R7 Vs Esper Deathblade A good matchup vs a tough opponent.
G1 T1 I was knocked down to two by a double thoughtsezie stoneforge lilliana aggressive draw. Fortunately, he had to search up underground to play lilliana which I was able to waste and keep him off blue for a long time. Goyf sat on defense and my two visions went off and gave me the tools to come back. This showcased the grindy nature of the matchup and the resiliency of shardless bug in any game that goes past the first few turns. G2 he had another aggressive start and was able to land batterskull/sword of feast or famine. I had the answer to the sword but couldnt find an answer to the follow up true name digging for deluge. This only left us with like 10min for g3. I was trying to play very quickly as I felt the matchup was favorable. For some reason, even though we both play at the same local store, my opponent distrusted me and kept repeatedly asking how many cards were in my hand and for me to shuffle his deck more after shuffling it as my cut after his fetch. While I understand his paranoia because of how rampant cheating can be, this did not help our clock situation even in G3. G3 was grindy. I landed jace first on an empty board and was pressuring his jace with agent into strix. Unfortunately my brainstorms yielded only deluges and charm and lands and visions and I couldn't find a goyf to save my life. I didn't suspend the first vision because I was hoping to brainstorm into an agent. With less than a minute on the clock, I opted not to suspend any of my 3 visions because maybe I'd draw forces and they would never resolve. My opponent picked up his pace of play some but I suspect made sure I had turn 0 and he had t1. At this point, I calculated I couldn't kill him from 12 even if I found goyfs so I merely bounced his fresh stoneforge w/ jace. The game ended with me having answers in hand and jace vs his threats and jace. He then made a snarky comment about how of course I'm not the kind of person to concede even in the face of his overwhelming advantage. I regret wasting a little breath showing him my hand and explaining the situation. I think he felt the esper-shardless matchup was way better than it is for him and probably rightly felt himself a better player (although maybe a lot closer in legacy than he thinks). Unfortunately for him, he was paired down and missed top8 on breakers.

R8 Vs Elves

My opponent I recognized as a very good elves player whom I had played in a past open. Fortunately I was able to lead deathrite into lilliana into double goyf. He had to use his natural ordered behemoth to kill lilliana and then was forced to oplay defense vs 5/6 goyfs which closed out the game. A radically different game if I lose the die roll. G2 I have the cage which locks him out of two green suns in hand which I see when I thoughtseize the behemoth in hand. I make my one punt of the day when I draw meddling mage. I snap play it going to name abrupt decay...then I think well I saw viridian shaman g1 and maybe he didn't sb in decays...then i name shaman...then I remember I have force of will in hand. I lucksack out and kill him the turn b4 he would draw it. He then explains he only saw BUG delver cards g1 and I had played BUG delver vs him in previous open so he definitely boarded in decays.

R9 vs esperdeathblade. One of Shardless Bug's best matchups. My opponent was Alex Bertoncini. He was very nice and pleasant to play against (and also was when I played near him in earlier rounds). I was anxious to win to try to top 8 but even more so because of an earlier round situation vs my friend at x-1. During that round, after drawing their opening hands, my friend asked how many cards Alex was holding. He responded 7. My friend asked him to count twice and 7 was the answer. Then my friend asked him to lay them flat and found 8 cards. The judges ruled it a warning and a forced mulligan. G1 He was in a tight spot after I decayed his Vclique with Jitte equipped leaving him with an empty board, 8 life vs my goyf. He landed a deathrite then a true name to turn the game around quick. He then punted on the critical turn at 2 life vs my goyf. He attacked with nemesis for 2 jitte counters, then played a jace into my one card and 5 mana tapping his deathrite and fetching down to 1 in the process. My last card was force of will. My goyf was a 5/6 and attacked for the win. He beat himself up pretty bad about this punt and has publicly posted on facebook about it. I was relieved and lucky and admitted so. G2 was not close with multiple visions going off into a double shardless turn. He was very gracious in defeat.

Top 8: Can be found in the coverage. My opponent agonized over his keep and led tarn pass. This let me know he had stifles and wastelands and no threats. I had a great hand with goyfs and strix. Fortunately, he fetched on his turn before playing his second land allowing me to fetch out my swamp. Unfortunately, he had double stifle double waste daze goyf hand and an answer to my t2 deathrite. On the last turn before lethal, I found a second land to try to land one of my two drops, but his last card was the daze. I died with goyfs and strix aplenty in hand. Another game radically decided by play/draw. G2 I couldn't mulligan a force vision deathrite 4 land hand, as I felt any hand with a deathrite and lands was favored over his average hand. I force his t1 delver (which I know force sucks in this matchup). I suspend a vision and play deathrite and pray. He continually submerged my deathrite without me fetching which I found strange, but it worked for him as I never drew enough gas to keep up with threats. At two, in top deck mode, I couldn't draw an answer to his new drawn lavaman.

Wow-I remembered more than I thought. Props to friends for lending me a few cards and for sticking around to watch. Also, thanks to all my opponents who really were very nice to play against. Making top 8 was cool, but I was excited just to play a full day of Legacy. I feel that RUG is a tough but maybe slightly favorable matchup, especially with my md configuration so it sucked to lose twice to it, but we all can't run hot all the time.

Thanks for reading.

[Etched]

Sad to see this deck go from DTB to the third page. I started legacy playing RUG and then switched to Team America after deathrite/decay were printed. The problem was I would have trouble closing without lightning bolts vs stoneblade and miracles. Delver just felt very inconsistent and a way worse play than turn 1 deathrite. Also, the games would go on a bit longer and there were no random stifle blowouts so daze become less consistent. For those reasons, I switched to Shardless.

I played it yesterday in SCG Atl to a top 8. Here's the list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=64130
Even though I have loved hymning people since when I first started playing magic 17 yrs ago, the deck felt glutted on two drops. Thoughtseize was ok but cascading into it was the worst. I saw Lejay advocating and doing well with a build without any discard and gave it a go. I also adopted the sideboard spice of meddling mage/scrubland from a daily list of his.

I didn't take many detailed notes but I'll give you the run down. Some of the later rounds are much clearer to me. I likely will mix up some of the earlier rounds. I was sideboarding on the fly so am open to suggestions.

R1 Vs UWR Delver

This matchup has always felt very good. The life gained from STP helps mitigate their bolts and them not having stifle also helps. Goyf being bigger than batterskull makes a big difference. Just hit land drops to avoid giving their dazes and spell pierces value. Watch out for the rare sword of feast and famine post board. I played around spell pierce with lilliana and rode her home in one game. Forced a swords on goyf and rode that home in another. I believe I had a deluge blow out here as well. SB +Golgari Charm, +scrubland +Notion theif +2 thoughtseize; -2 jace -2 force of will -1 AV.

R2 Vs UW RIP Miracles

G1 Another excellent matchup. After playing it twice vs alphastryk on Wednesday, I felt very comfortable with my list and game decisions. I kept a double abrupt decay deahtrite brainstorm hand (not knowing he was on miracles) which happened to be very good vs his double top double counterbalance hand. He enlightened tutored for a rest in peace to slow down my offense and I was able to find a third decay. This was very very lucky in that he had Helm floating on top. G2 I don't remember much but I don't remember it being close. I think I had lilliana and multiple visions resolve. He was a very nice opponent. He even was optimistic about having time to grab food which is so rare when playing miracles. SB +Golgari Charm +pithing Needle +notion theif +1 duress +1 meddling mage; -2 deluge -2 baleful strix -1 goyf. I opted to swap a goyf for a mage to maybe help close a game under rest in peace and shut off a card he tutors for since I knew he was running multiples. Maybe wrong. I may have sided out a land here too.

R3 Vs Reanimator

A local friend who always plays combo at the weekly events. I wasn't sure what variety though (lately belcher and ANT have been his favorites I think). I mulled a decent opener w/ no force no clock into a deathrite/lilliana based hand. He led on island ponder, so I put him on ANT. Unfortunately, when I tapped out for lilliana t2, he forced it, then proceeded to careful study/reanimate a griselbrand. Fortunately, I followed up with Baleful Strix. There was a trade, and then he exhumed both back. I followed up with a second Baleful strix. Deathrite removed his elesh norn from the gy and then his Ashen rider. And he quickly realized he was hardlocked out of the game no matter how many cards he drew. G2 He went all in show and telling elesh norn-I put in Strix again. I then played lilliana and meddling mage and rode them home vs his empty grip. SB YARDSALE SWAP -4 vision -4 decay -2 jace -Deluge -wasteland; +everything

R4 Vs Jund.

My opponent was a 5min late and received a game loss. He was very apologetic about it, and I assured him he was punished more than enough for it by the judges. He opened on deathrite into lilliana. I opened on deathrite as well. I was able to force his lilliana and play my own. He was stalled on a mana with only wastelands to support his overgrown tomb. I kept my deathrite up to block his. He played multiple goyfs but I was able to tick up lilliiana for another sacrifice, then play a second for a third sacrifice. At this point, he was loathe to wasteland me as he was likely holding multiple bloodbraids. This allowed me to play jace and take it home. He did not complain once during this match about his mana screw or not getting to play g3. Hats off.

R5 Vs Sneak and Show

I almost managed to steal g1 with NO disruption. He led island ponder. Second Island Ponder. Misty fetch. He git probed me and brainstormed a bunch. At this point, I figured he was on Monoblue. He forced a lilliana, then show and telled an emrakul. I followed up with a Deluge for 15. He then played a bare sneak attack with no cards. My Tarpit went to work putting him to a low life but I never found a goyf to close things out. Cardless, he pondered, shuffled, then hit the griselbrand-Which I should emphasize is not really very lucky considering the high density of cantrips he could also hit. He played well this game but was clearly under the weather which I think affected his game play in g2. G2 My thoughtseize is pierced. My t2 deathrite+ duress snags his sneak attack. He probes me and sees my notion thief. The following turn he brainstorms into my 4 open mana, realizes his mistake, and has to fetch/spell pierce his own brainstorm. This rattled him a bit. I play lilliana and meddling mage I think and he quickly scoops with no way to dig for answers. G3 I see him swap 2 more cards which I assume are pyroclasms. He forces my t1 thoughtseize. He show and tells t2. I have to think do I put in deathrite so I can play t2 lilliana. At this point, I'm hoping for an emrakul. It's actually just a sneak attack. He has two cards. I untap, play needle on sneak attack. I think land a lilliana. to go w/ double deathrite. I soon draw a mage and name pyroclasm to represent lethal on board. He has monsters in hand still and is drawing for echoing truth but I have force backup. SB -4 decay -tarpit -deluges -2 goyf -2 jace -2 visions +everything but the graveyard hate.

R6 Vs Rug Eventual winner and my quarterfinals opponent.

G1 I mull to five and get wastelanded. I play a goyf to stare down his but he has dismember. G2 I mull to 6 and keep a land heavy deathrite hand. I proceed to have my deathrite submerged and draw it again and draw more lands and a goyf. He opens on delver goyf goyf mongoose or something. I have my lone goyf dismembered again. Afterwards, we discussed the matchup a bit since I used to play RUG. He shows me he sideboarded out stifles which I advised him not to do for good reasons. This would have the opportunity to haunt me as I commented it might to him at the time. +scrubland charm spellbomb and theif -2 force, -2 jace.

R7 Vs Esper Deathblade A good matchup vs a tough opponent.
G1 T1 I was knocked down to two by a double thoughtsezie stoneforge lilliana aggressive draw. Fortunately, he had to search up underground to play lilliana which I was able to waste and keep him off blue for a long time. Goyf sat on defense and my two visions went off and gave me the tools to come back. This showcased the grindy nature of the matchup and the resiliency of shardless bug in any game that goes past the first few turns. G2 he had another aggressive start and was able to land batterskull/sword of feast or famine. I had the answer to the sword but couldnt find an answer to the follow up true name digging for deluge. This only left us with like 10min for g3. I was trying to play very quickly as I felt the matchup was favorable. For some reason, even though we both play at the same local store, my opponent distrusted me and kept repeatedly asking how many cards were in my hand and for me to shuffle his deck more after shuffling it as my cut after his fetch. While I understand his paranoia because of how rampant cheating can be, this did not help our clock situation even in G3. G3 was grindy. I landed jace first on an empty board and was pressuring his jace with agent into strix. Unfortunately my brainstorms yielded only deluges and charm and lands and visions and I couldn't find a goyf to save my life. I didn't suspend the first vision because I was hoping to brainstorm into an agent. With less than a minute on the clock, I opted not to suspend any of my 3 visions because maybe I'd draw forces and they would never resolve. My opponent picked up his pace of play some but I suspect made sure I had turn 0 and he had t1. At this point, I calculated I couldn't kill him from 12 even if I found goyfs so I merely bounced his fresh stoneforge w/ jace. The game ended with me having answers in hand and jace vs his threats and jace. He then made a snarky comment about how of course I'm not the kind of person to concede even in the face of his overwhelming advantage. I regret wasting a little breath showing him my hand and explaining the situation. I think he felt the esper-shardless matchup was way better than it is for him and probably rightly felt himself a better player (although maybe a lot closer in legacy than he thinks). Unfortunately for him, he was paired down and missed top8 on breakers.

R8 Vs Elves

My opponent I recognized as a very good elves player whom I had played in a past open. Fortunately I was able to lead deathrite into lilliana into double goyf. He had to use his natural ordered behemoth to kill lilliana and then was forced to oplay defense vs 5/6 goyfs which closed out the game. A radically different game if I lose the die roll. G2 I have the cage which locks him out of two green suns in hand which I see when I thoughtseize the behemoth in hand. I make my one punt of the day when I draw meddling mage. I snap play it going to name abrupt decay...then I think well I saw viridian shaman g1 and maybe he didn't sb in decays...then i name shaman...then I remember I have force of will in hand. I lucksack out and kill him the turn b4 he would draw it. He then explains he only saw BUG delver cards g1 and I had played BUG delver vs him in previous open so he definitely boarded in decays.

R9 vs esperdeathblade. One of Shardless Bug's best matchups. My opponent was Alex Bertoncini. He was very nice and pleasant to play against (and also was when I played near him in earlier rounds). I was anxious to win to try to top 8 but even more so because of an earlier round situation vs my friend at x-1. During that round, after drawing their opening hands, my friend asked how many cards Alex was holding. He responded 7. My friend asked him to count twice and 7 was the answer. Then my friend asked him to lay them flat and found 8 cards. The judges ruled it a warning and a forced mulligan. G1 He was in a tight spot after I decayed his Vclique with Jitte equipped leaving him with an empty board, 8 life vs my goyf. He landed a deathrite then a true name to turn the game around quick. He then punted on the critical turn at 2 life vs my goyf. He attacked with nemesis for 2 jitte counters, then played a jace into my one card and 5 mana tapping his deathrite and fetching down to 1 in the process. My last card was force of will. My goyf was a 5/6 and attacked for the win. He beat himself up pretty bad about this punt and has publicly posted on facebook about it. I was relieved and lucky and admitted so. G2 was not close with multiple visions going off into a double shardless turn. He was very gracious in defeat.

Top 8: Can be found in the coverage. My opponent agonized over his keep and led tarn pass. This let me know he had stifles and wastelands and no threats. I had a great hand with goyfs and strix. Fortunately, he fetched on his turn before playing his second land allowing me to fetch out my swamp. Unfortunately, he had double stifle double waste daze goyf hand and an answer to my t2 deathrite. On the last turn before lethal, I found a second land to try to land one of my two drops, but his last card was the daze. I died with goyfs and strix aplenty in hand. Another game radically decided by play/draw. G2 I couldn't mulligan a force vision deathrite 4 land hand, as I felt any hand with a deathrite and lands was favored over his average hand. I force his t1 delver (which I know force sucks in this matchup). I suspend a vision and play deathrite and pray. He continually submerged my deathrite without me fetching which I found strange, but it worked for him as I never drew enough gas to keep up with threats. At two, in top deck mode, I couldn't draw an answer to his new drawn lavaman.

Wow-I remembered more than I thought. Props to friends for lending me a few cards and for sticking around to watch. Also, thanks to all my opponents who really were very nice to play against. Making top 8 was cool, but I was excited just to play a full day of Legacy. I feel that RUG is a tough but maybe slightly favorable matchup, especially with my md configuration so it sucked to lose twice to it, but we all can't run hot all the time.

Thanks for reading.

I'm sorry, but I'm not at all surprised that Alex tried cheating you. Anyways, congratulations on your finish.

[Razorwynd]

Wow-I remembered more than I thought. Props to friends for lending me a few cards and for sticking around to watch. Also, thanks to all my opponents who really were very nice to play against. Making top 8 was cool, but I was excited just to play a full day of Legacy. I feel that RUG is a tough but maybe slightly favorable matchup, especially with my md configuration so it sucked to lose twice to it, but we all can't run hot all the time.

Thanks for reading.

Thanks for the Report. I am looking to switch back to the Shardless BUG from Delver, for the same reasons you mention. I am curious about the main deck Toxic Deluge that you (and Lejay) have been running. In reading your report it only came up a few times, do you feel that the card is really main deck worthy? Did you just for get to mention its impact in the games that you played? Also could you comment on the lack of main board discard (hymn or thoughtseize)? What would you change about the deck?

I do agree that the RUG matchup is favorable but again it is always close, especially when they are running 3x submerge. It seemed that was also very favorable in the finals matchup.

[Kayradis]

R9 vs esperdeathblade. One of Shardless Bug's best matchups. My opponent was Alex Bertoncini. He was very nice and pleasant to play against (and also was when I played near him in earlier rounds). I was anxious to win to try to top 8 but even more so because of an earlier round situation vs my friend at x-1. During that round, after drawing their opening hands, my friend asked how many cards Alex was holding. He responded 7. My friend asked him to count twice and 7 was the answer. Then my friend asked him to lay them flat and found 8 cards. The judges ruled it a warning and a forced mulligan. G1 He was in a tight spot after I decayed his Vclique with Jitte equipped leaving him with an empty board, 8 life vs my goyf. He landed a deathrite then a true name to turn the game around quick. He then punted on the critical turn at 2 life vs my goyf. He attacked with nemesis for 2 jitte counters, then played a jace into my one card and 5 mana tapping his deathrite and fetching down to 1 in the process. My last card was force of will. My goyf was a 5/6 and attacked for the win. He beat himself up pretty bad about this punt and has publicly posted on facebook about it. I was relieved and lucky and admitted so. G2 was not close with multiple visions going off into a double shardless turn. He was very gracious in defeat.



Good Report.

Also.
You know the whole Bertoncini cheats is kind of a big deal right?

[infiniteJ]

Good Report.

Also.
You know the whole Bertoncini cheats is kind of a big deal right?

Sure. I don't live in a cave. I merely presented my perspective. I am not a judge and I am sure they ruled carefully on the earlier round situation. A known pro/pt competitor did the same thing to a friend at the legacy gp Atlanta a few yrs ago. Same exact ploy and lies. Same ruling. I found both situations upsetting.

[infiniteJ]

Thanks for the Report. I am looking to switch back to the Shardless BUG from Delver, for the same reasons you mention. I am curious about the main deck Toxic Deluge that you (and Lejay) have been running. In reading your report it only came up a few times, do you feel that the card is really main deck worthy? Did you just for get to mention its impact in the games that you played? Also could you comment on the lack of main board discard (hymn or thoughtseize)? What would you change about the deck?

I do agree that the RUG matchup is favorable but again it is always close, especially when they are running 3x submerge. It seemed that was also very favorable in the finals matchup.


The Deluge's were good vs the true-name/stoneblade decks I expected to be popular. There were at least two blow-outs. There was at least one game where I was desperately trying to find one. There also seemed to be a couple goblins/merfolk floating around which I dodged but would have been good there. They are easy to side out when bad and easy to pitch to lilliana when you have board control. There are so many decks out there that have difficulty contributing enough dudes to the board to beat a lilliana now so they have to over-commit into a deluge (at least in theory). If someone argued for a better card or a different list, I wouldn't fight for the deluge spot at all. Same with the pulse which felt like a bad decay and a nice oh-shit policy but honestly, batterskull/jace never feel like hard cards to beat. You can pressure jace better than any control deck and goyf can stare down a batterskull.

The discard I briefly mentioned in my post (glut on twos for hymn, ts being meh cascade). The arguments against it can be found in Lejay's posts as well as in Gerry's article's thoughts on post-sb games vs esperblade (although he does have them MB to hedge against combo). I had one mirror opponent one time board in more discard. During the match he cascaded into useless cards, thoughtseized redundant ones in a game that was going long, and hymned a stranded force or an in response abrupt decay, all while I flooded the board with dudes and plainswalkers. Afterwards, he asked my how I sideboarded and was shocked that I boarded out all the discard. Even after seeing how bad it was in the match, he still stuck to his guns and argued with me. I think it's easier to remember the games you blow someone out with double hymn or double thoughtseize than the ones you draw them late in the game. Also, legacy decks are so resilient and cantrip heavy that opening on discard can be underwhelming. Lastly, so many matches vs the bolt based tempo decks come down to them digging for bolts that I'd hate to start out bolting myself on t1 to take a card I can usually play around. That said, the 1 mana discards felt like a critical tool to fight combo post board as my md is VERY soft to combo. If you have a heavy combo meta, then maybe you have to play the 4 discard main and a more balanced sideboard. I just guessed some of the better players (many who don't play a ton of legacy) in the southeast would gravitate towards UWR delver/esperblade/miracles (I also suspected BUG delver would be popular).

As to what I'd change? I'd have to play more with this configuration to know for sure. I think cutting the pithing needle or a duress for a disfigure or 2 might help vs delver/deathrite openers as mentioned in my top8 profile. Unless the mirror becomes more popular, notion thief is probably unnecessary although I did board it in a lot. Maybe the pulse or a deluge could become a 23 land but 22 felt fine. Jace was underwhelming...maybe go to 1. I expected strix to be mediocre but it was solid. Three is excessive though. I think Jitte is unnecessary and possibly actively bad in these decks. A 4th Lilliana would never be an unwelcome sight and is perhaps the best addition. Honestly, I think the creature/spell core is excellent. I don't I want to mess with the cascade mix by adding much.

-IJ

[btm10]

I've only recently started playing the deck, but my preliminary results also seem like the 1-of Jace is the right call. Other than that, I've found myself boarding out Hymn in "fair" matchups, but I have also felt like Thoughtsieze was still pulling it's weight, especially against decks with specific problem cards. This may also be due to (what I think is) the abnormally high level of non-Abrupt Decay-able threads in my LGS meta, which contains multiple people who play 12-post and Lands variants as well as more normal things like Reanimator and Sneak and Show, so I frequently want instant speed removal for something like Emrakul, Griselbrand, or Marit Lage. I've been running 1 Diabolic Edict in the main and 1 in the board for this. I had intially taken the advice of a friend playing BUG Delver and tried Sapphire Charm as an answer to Lage and Batterskull, but I was already running Krosan Grip for Miracles, and that seems to work way better, so I might go to 2 SB Edicts, and with those Edicts, the additional Thoughtsiezes will be weaker. That being said, it's still not great to cascade into unless you're really far behind.

The other thing I've been toying with is a singleton non-cascadeable, non-Force counter in the main. I've done some preliminary testing with Complicate (not good enough) and Dissolve (meh), but preliminary results have been pretty favorable to Forbid. It's castable turn 2 off of Deathrite, and actually improves as the game goes on and you start resolving Visions and filling your hand. The Buyback doesn't play well with late-game Brainstorms, but it does give you something else to do with dead Lands/Hymns/Thoughtsiezes besides shuffle them away. The only other real condender for the slot is Voidslime (or I guess Undermine). I'm mostly interested in getting other thoughts on this. It's been good so far, but I'm not totally sold.

[drocker23]

The Deluge's were good vs the true-name/stoneblade decks I expected to be popular. There were at least two blow-outs. There was at least one game where I was desperately trying to find one. There also seemed to be a couple goblins/merfolk floating around which I dodged but would have been good there. They are easy to side out when bad and easy to pitch to lilliana when you have board control. There are so many decks out there that have difficulty contributing enough dudes to the board to beat a lilliana now so they have to over-commit into a deluge (at least in theory). If someone argued for a better card or a different list, I wouldn't fight for the deluge spot at all. Same with the pulse which felt like a bad decay and a nice oh-shit policy but honestly, batterskull/jace never feel like hard cards to beat. You can pressure jace better than any control deck and goyf can stare down a batterskull.

The discard I briefly mentioned in my post (glut on twos for hymn, ts being meh cascade). The arguments against it can be found in Lejay's posts as well as in Gerry's article's thoughts on post-sb games vs esperblade (although he does have them MB to hedge against combo). I had one mirror opponent one time board in more discard. During the match he cascaded into useless cards, thoughtseized redundant ones in a game that was going long, and hymned a stranded force or an in response abrupt decay, all while I flooded the board with dudes and plainswalkers. Afterwards, he asked my how I sideboarded and was shocked that I boarded out all the discard. Even after seeing how bad it was in the match, he still stuck to his guns and argued with me. I think it's easier to remember the games you blow someone out with double hymn or double thoughtseize than the ones you draw them late in the game. Also, legacy decks are so resilient and cantrip heavy that opening on discard can be underwhelming. Lastly, so many matches vs the bolt based tempo decks come down to them digging for bolts that I'd hate to start out bolting myself on t1 to take a card I can usually play around. That said, the 1 mana discards felt like a critical tool to fight combo post board as my md is VERY soft to combo. If you have a heavy combo meta, then maybe you have to play the 4 discard main and a more balanced sideboard. I just guessed some of the better players (many who don't play a ton of legacy) in the southeast would gravitate towards UWR delver/esperblade/miracles (I also suspected BUG delver would be popular).

As to what I'd change? I'd have to play more with this configuration to know for sure. I think cutting the pithing needle or a duress for a disfigure or 2 might help vs delver/deathrite openers as mentioned in my top8 profile. Unless the mirror becomes more popular, notion thief is probably unnecessary although I did board it in a lot. Maybe the pulse or a deluge could become a 23 land but 22 felt fine. Jace was underwhelming...maybe go to 1. I expected strix to be mediocre but it was solid. Three is excessive though. I think Jitte is unnecessary and possibly actively bad in these decks. A 4th Lilliana would never be an unwelcome sight and is perhaps the best addition. Honestly, I think the creature/spell core is excellent. I don't I want to mess with the cascade mix by adding much.

-IJ

i was thinking about the changes you suggested, weren't really all that clear to be honest. This is the first time I've picked up shardless bug since it took me forever to get the lands necessary to play the deck.

so i would like to discuss my personal dilemma regarding taking your decklist forward. what it mainly comes down to is, whether or not to play Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize, or Toxic Deluge and Force of Will. I like 14 creatures, and 22 lands. i think cutting jace down to 1 is so bad it shouldn't even be considered. especially because you're running a board wipe in the main, so anytime you have planeswalkers out and an empty board you pretty much auto win. I've seen the decklists where the person is running Force of Wills and no hand hate main. and I've seen decklists with hand hate main and no force of wills at all. for example the guy who got 2nd place at the recent scg open series.

so basically a shardless bug should have at least this in it in my opinion:

4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
4 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
1 creeping tar pit
3 wasteland

2 baleful strix
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
4 shardless agent

4 brainstorm
4 ancestral vision
4 abrupt decay

3 liliana of the veil
2 jace, the mind sculptor

So this leaves 7 open spots in the decklist. the way you went with these 7 spots are 4 force of will 2 toxic deluge and 1 maelstrom pulse. i've seen other decks that do something like 3 hymn to tourach, 2 thoughtseize, 1 maelstrom pulse and then perhaps a 23 land or another strix. i've even seen some people who found some room for force, hymn, and thoughtseize. but these people have usually cut out liliana.

so what's the best cards to fill in these 7 spots going forward?

[infiniteJ]

i was thinking about the changes you suggested, weren't really all that clear to be honest. This is the first time I've picked up shardless bug since it took me forever to get the lands necessary to play the deck.

so i would like to discuss my personal dilemma regarding taking your decklist forward. what it mainly comes down to is, whether or not to play Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize, or Toxic Deluge and Force of Will. I like 14 creatures, and 22 lands. i think cutting jace down to 1 is so bad it shouldn't even be considered. especially because you're running a board wipe in the main, so anytime you have planeswalkers out and an empty board you pretty much auto win. I've seen the decklists where the person is running Force of Wills and no hand hate main. and I've seen decklists with hand hate main and no force of wills at all. for example the guy who got 2nd place at the recent scg open series.

so basically a shardless bug should have at least this in it in my opinion:

4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
4 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
1 creeping tar pit
3 wasteland

2 baleful strix
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
4 shardless agent

4 brainstorm
4 ancestral vision
4 abrupt decay

3 liliana of the veil
2 jace, the mind sculptor

So this leaves 7 open spots in the decklist. the way you went with these 7 spots are 4 force of will 2 toxic deluge and 1 maelstrom pulse. i've seen other decks that do something like 3 hymn to tourach, 2 thoughtseize, 1 maelstrom pulse and then perhaps a 23 land or another strix. i've even seen some people who found some room for force, hymn, and thoughtseize. but these people have usually cut out liliana.

so what's the best cards to fill in these 7 spots going forward?

I think force of will is a great card in this deck. You can pitch spare visions drawn early, have a robust late game card advantage engine, and will often hard cast them late game vs miracles. I can understand the no force argument but I disagree with it. So that's 4 cards. I almost never board out all the force of wills. You keep them vs miracles where they are awesome. You keep a few to keep up with delver as well.

The last three are usually discard cards since they are flexible and strong vs combo, a weaker matchup. I expected the meta at my open to have a lot of stoneforge decks and a lot of nemesis so I used the pulse and deluges which are strong there. That said, if your meta is all delver, storm, and miracles, then those cards are bad bad and I'd use maybe some thoughtsiezes or a 4th Lilliana. If it's very heavy delver, another strix. I've seen others run true name or v clique to up the blue count. Really there are many options.

[Razorwynd]

Good Luck Lejay!!!!!!!
I hope you take it down. You are the shardless master!

[Razorwynd]

Good Luck Lejay!!!!!!!
I hope you take it down. You are the shardless master!

Bummer… that damn 4c loam deck killed you and Pierre. I can not wait to hear about how it went!

[drocker23]

Good Luck Lejay!!!!!!!
I hope you take it down. You are the shardless master!

Thoughts on Tombstalker, Baleful Strix, and Sylvan Library.


1) Tombstalker - interesting late game card. Flies over TNN, can end a game fairly quickly. Random as hell though....

2) Sylvan Library - Now THIS is a card i've considered looking at as a potential cascade target, as well as just a good turn 2 play to make filtering out the top of our deck better for shardless agents. Helping us dig harder for our removal or counterspells seems pretty solid. I never got around to trying it out, and now that the guy got 2nd place with it in his list at the BOM, it may actually be worth taking another look at and testing, rather than viewing it as a "cute" card. although to be honest, i'm not sure what I would want to cut for it. Maybe the main deck maelstrom pulse or start cutting some number of baleful strix's. i'm maxed out on everything else. But in a European meta vs. a USA meta....library definitely takes the cake because personally I would expect more people to be play decks like Miracles and combo decks where Library is very very good. In the USA however, players sure do love their Delver of Secrets. So does the choice have to be Library or Strix? is it reasonable to run both?

3) Baleful Strix - I love playing this guy on turn 2 if I don't have a deathrite shaman or my opponent has an aggressive start. I understand the idea of not wanting to play them when you are playing MD toxic deluge, but they stall the early game so well and drawing a card doesn't hurt either. Plus, they're fantastic blockers against Delver of Secrets and Tarmogoyf, which are probably the two most commonly played creatures in a USA meta outside of Stoneforge Mystic and True-Name Nemesis.

So what is the correct call here? Blockers vs. Delver/Goyf? or top deck manipulation and a 5/5 flying beatstick?

[Lejay]

Placed second in a small tournament in Annecy with this list :

1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Ancestral Vision
SB: 1 Savannah
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 4 Meddling Mage

I'll explain just the changes from my previous list. For other choices please refer to my previous posts in the thread.
It all started with my friend Tristan Polzl saying he had good results with 3x toxic deluge main deck. It seemed interesting to have more ways to kill nemesis and ways that are more reliable than liliana to do so. Toxic deluge is a flexible card that can get rid of just about any creature. It can kill goyfs if the situation asks for it and it is even good against show and tell emrakul as an extreme example. If I can deal with swarm decks with powerful main deck hosers, the sideboard could be almost completely dedicated to combo.
Combo seemed really well kept in check by the decks to beat after GP Paris. Since combo is shardless' main weakness and N°1 DTB Miracles had always been a good match-up for me it seemed like a good time to test shardless again for BoM.

With deluge main deck we deal very well with swarm so I could finally cut the red splash for whipflare which didn't feel so good against TNN. That let me finally test the white splash for meddling mage sideboard I had been interested in testing for a long time. Meddling is always relevant agaisnt the wide range of combo decks that exist in legacy if you can cast it (or even to pitch it to fow). It is another angle of attack they don't often expect (permanent hate whereas shardless traditionnally counts more on discard and forces) and is great to be cascaded.

With deluge the list was more controllish (my previous build tried to maximize the number of tempoish openings) so we tried to play a third jace. It was good but I had too many cards to side out against tempo with 3 jaces and it was a bit slow on curve. I tried the sylvan library instead for these reasons and to give more 2 drops to cascade into and it went pretty well.
Without strixes (which don't fit very well with deluge) we were cascading more into ancestral, but also more into brainstorms and drs. Having an additionnal powerful 2 drop was very welcomed.

With 3 deluge the list was a bit too heavy on answers which isn't good when you run several lilianas. Also there were only 12 creatures without the strixes. After a lot of different cards tested for 60th slot tombstalker was the best we could find. It's nice to have another big creature that almost always survives our own deluges even facing batterskull. It's also the only flyer which can be a big deal (I don't run clique because of the mana base and to avoid being hosed too much by leyline of sanctity).

I added the forest in addition to the swamp I had. Without strix it isn't a problem to run it. Fetches are optimized to fetch the basic forest mainly which works pretty well with having 4 underground seas. With two basics I don't have to worry anymore for the most part about moons (painter has been on the rise), B2B or waste lock (like I could have in the finals). By playing the two basics that can cast removal and the biggest threats (goyf), I got rid of shardless' biggest weakness for the most part. Against combo decks forest is replaced by savannah.

In the sideboard, after removing 3rd deluge I still felt I needed one brutal additionnal card against swarm decks (especially elves). It could have been 3rd deluge but if it was a sideboard card it could be something more targeted if necessary. I didn't like golgari charm because we would often cascade it when we don't want to which is much worse than cascading whipflare. NoSB seemed like the most powerful and it didn't eat decay from elves. Since I generally side out jace against these kind of decks it's not really upping the curve.

With meddling mage to deal with slow loam decks or some punishing fire lists and ichorid, I cut one leyline of the void, keeping just the last one. I want two fast sideboard grave hate cards to complement either drs or fow according to the match-ups and don't think I need another cage against elves. If you think leyline is only good in your starting hand you should watch game 2 of the finals. Also even if I draw it early running DRS helps casting it.

I try to prepare PT Atlanta, leaving in ten days only so I may not answer quickly to questions. Please try finding my other posts in the thread for other choices.
If any of you has tested block constructed and is proud of his list I am very interested.

[Jessenator]

Congrats on your finish on this small tournament Lejay! Anyhow, I was just wondering why you chose this deck in essence over anything else in the format?

I always liked your mentality of forfeiting discard / dead draws late game in the MB in favor of beating fair decks game 1. I"m trying to prepare for the invitation in Columbus next month and I think this deck has the best chance against the fair decks in the American Mid-west meta. Or am I wrong here?

[Lejay]

Shardless bug is excellent at beating most fair decks and poor at beating most combo decks. All current DTBs seem to handle quite well combo decks. In Annecy the most represented decks were Miracle, BUG Tempo and D&T which are all favourable with my list. I only faced one combo deck : elves (about 50/50 considering the whole match) and lost to it in a tight g3. That was my only loss before the final match.

I don't know particularly mid-west meta but as long as combo isn't big shardless should be a top choice.

[Jessenator]

Shardless bug is excellent at beating most fair decks and poor at beating most combo decks. All current DTBs seem to handle quite well combo decks. In Annecy the most represented decks were Miracle, BUG Tempo and D&T which are all favourable with my list. I only faced one combo deck : elves (about 50/50 considering the whole match) and lost to it in a tight g3. That was my only loss before the final match.

I don't know particularly mid-west meta but as long as combo isn't big shardless should be a top choice.

I think the meta in the US has a lot of combo but the invitational legacy meta features a lot more fair decks. Is there a reason why you didn't play a Scrubland over the Savannah? Better fetchland synergy w/ the basics I'm assuming? And how was Meddling Mage working for you the whole day? And against which decks was it best vs?

Thanks for the reply!

[Lejay]

My fetchlands base is optimized to fetch the forest and I generally want (and am likely) to have a sea turn 1.
Meddling is mainly for combo so I didn't side it in outside of elves.

[Griselpuff]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28184_No-Shards-No-Problem.html

Lejay, what do you think of franks sb plans? He says he usually keeps in 1-2 visions vs combo and almost always keeps in at least 3 fow against any deck with TNN delver or sfm. I think he's wrong but I would like to hear your thoughts.

[Lejay]

I remember I didn't agree with several things when I read that.
With my prenemesis build I was cutting all visions. Now with meddling I can keep them and cut the goyfs.
I keep all fows against delver decks. Without delver I will generally side them out versus SFM/TNN decks.

[Griselpuff]

Cool, good to see we agree.

Did you consider Tar Pit or Clique? I think Clique is fine even if we run Deluge.

[Lejay]

There isn't just deluge, it's also a problem with the manabase as it is to cast clique.
I already gave my opinion on CTP. I don't want to slow myself down and I want to play 4 wastelands. It's mostly a sb card versus miracles so I don't want it.

[Jessenator]

How would you board against Deathblade decks? Cards I see potential in are Null Rod, Maelstrom Pulse, Notion Thief? Of course Force of Will isn't very good here. But is discard good against Deathblade decks?

And against Elves I like to leave in the Tarmogoyfs because many of their creatures disable your ground attacks, and I think having as many beaters as possible is optimal here to get in damage. I'm also unsure about discard against Elves. I think it's not very good since they can play multiple spells per turn. Is this the right mindset?

[ivanpei]

Was just wondering about the manabase. Is it better to run Misty or Marsh Flats/Black fetch.

The black fetch can grab the all important basic swamp while Misty can grab a Trop. Thoughts? Being able to get the swamp consistently let's you cast abrupt decay with a swamp and a Deathrite. Fetch, Swamp into Deathrite means you can cast Decay in case you get bloodmooned.

[Bonk]

Hi,

I worked on the sideboard table with Last Lejay's list. Here his list for remaining.

MD
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Ancestral Vision

SB
1 Savannah
1 Null Rod
1 Notion Thief
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Meddling Mage



UWr Delver
-4 Force
+1 Rod, +1 Pulse, +1 NoSB, +1 Thief

ANT
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -2 Deluge, -2 Jace
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +2 Duress, +2 Seize

BUG Shardless
-2 Force
+1 Thief, +1 Pulse

BUG Tempo
-3 Force
+1 Thief, +1 Pulse, +1 NoSB

Dredge
-3 Decay
+1 Cage, +1 LoTV, +1 Pulse

Elfes
-3 Liliana, -1 Library
+1 NoSB, +1 Cage, +2 Seize

Jund
-4 Force
+1 LoTV, +1 Pulse, +2 Seize

Miracle
-2 Deluge, -2 Decay
+1 Pulse, +1 Thief, +1 NoSB, +1 Rod

Omni-Tell
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -4 Decay, -1 Deluge
+1 Savannah, +4 Mage, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +1 Thief

Sneak-Show
-1 Waste, -4 Decay, -4 Tarmo
+1 Savannah, +4 Mage, +2 Duress, +2 Seize

Esper-Blade
-4 Force
+1 Rod, +1 Thief, +1 Pulse, +1 NoSB

Spiral Tide
-2 Deluge, -2 Decay, -2 Jace,
-1 Forest, -3 Liliana
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +1 Thief, +2 Duress, +2 Seize

Reanimator
-1 Forest, -2 Deluge, -4 Decay, -4 Tarmo
+1 Savannah, +4 Mage, +1 Cage, +1 LoTV
+2 Duress, +2 Seize

Merfolks
-1 Library
+1 Pulse

Painter
-1 Waste, -2 Deluge, -2 Jace, -4 Tarmo,
-1 Stalker
+4 Mage, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +1 Rod,
+1 Savannah

MUD
-2 Vision
+1 Rod, +1 Pulse

What are your feelings about this table ? Lejay said that he'd keep fows against delver.decks... but I don't see what to side out. Problem is to keep the count of blue cards for Fow.
do you see Mistakes or changes I'should do ? Lejay can we have your advice (if you have time, I know you're preparing a tournament) ?

[dionykos]

I'm trying to figure these out as well. I'm not finished, but here are a few comments in what you suggest:
- ANT: you probably want Null Rod against storm, and you can safely cut stalker
- BUG: I wouldn't side Nosb in against BUG, unless they run TNN
- Dredge: I suggest cutting the Liliana first. Decay is an answer to needle on DRS.
- Miracle: Nosb is quite bad here.
- Omnitell: I would cut the second Deluge. Pulse isn't bad here.
- SneakShow: cut Deluge, keep a couple of decay for Moon, and bring in Pulse.

[Bonk]

thanks. I've notioced your advices.

Against BUG Tempo, I prefer side in the NoSB, because of TNN and BOB, often played now. one of my big problems is Jace. I oftenly pwant to side it out, but it's impossible if I want to keep fows...

[Barbed Blightning]

I think JTMS is good vs BUG tempo, since he wrecks Tombstalker and makes our long game better, and is Decay-proof

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Jessenator]

After a week of testing (against BUG Delver and Deathblade vs friends), I've found that BUG Delver is a very favorable matchup and Deathblade is still not where I want to be.

Toxic Deluge does a TON of work in this deck, it feels almost a staple in the maindeck at the moment. A lot of games I was a million miles behind and once that card resolved I instantly won the game.

I understand the Deathblade is just a very solid deck. But them having up to 4 True-Name Nemesis is still a huge problem against this deck and I cannot justify putting Night of Soul's Betrayal against them for just that card. Or maybe I should because that's how I end up losing to most of the time? And what is the general consensus of discard spells against Stoneblade vs keeping in a number of Force of Wills? This deck has proven to be one of the best decks in the current meta at the moment with favorable matchups across the board except for Sneak Show / Painter. But with a deck that can quickly accelerate in to a True-Name Nemsis and attacks you from the Stoneforge Mystic angle is quite problematic, anyone has any insight on how to improve this matchup? I feel if this deck cannot have a favorable matchup against Deathblade then there's almost no reason in playing this deck in the North American meta.

Thanks all!

[Jessenator]

thanks. I've notioced your advices.

Against BUG Tempo, I prefer side in the NoSB, because of TNN and BOB, often played now. one of my big problems is Jace. I oftenly pwant to side it out, but it's impossible if I want to keep fows...

It's okay to keep in a few Forces against BUG Delver because you don't have many removal spells and you may need to gain tempo since you're suspending Ancestral Visions. I would not want NoSB unless they're playing both Dark Confidants + TNN (unlikely). I think resolving a JTMS is almost always better against BUG Delver compared to the other 4CMC enchantment. Does that help? If you're seeing those style of decks a lot you can also try Disfigures in the Sideboard.

[Goosen]

Hi Guys

Maybe I can answer some question now when Lejay is away. I have been playing this list over a month, with only one change in the sb -1 Leyline + 1 Cage. I feel that 1 Leyline is to random and like that I could cascade into Cage. Have discussed but Lejay likes one offs. :-) It is a really good deck, had difficult choice between this deck and another for BOM but last hour I decided to go with the other one. Went 8-2 so cant be unhappy about that but top 8 would be nice, I played against 3 combo decks at BOM (no elfs, which is the only DTB combo I have found this Shardless have atleast 50% against) so dont think Shardless would be a better choose for me.

@ivanpei Often you wanna pick up forest and 1-2 UGS and forest with DRS work aswell to cast Decay. I fetch more times for forest then swamp.

Here are some sb changes for Bonk list "sb guide". Dont have the time look on every deck. Remember I have 2 Cage and no Leyline. And as allways you have to change depends how their list is and how they sb.

UWr Delver
-2 Jace
+1 Rod, +1 Pulse

ANT
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -2 Jace, -1 swamp, -1 Liliana, -1 Stacker - 4 Abrupt Decay
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +2 Cage, +1 Pulse, +1 Thief +1 Null Rod

BUG Tempo
-2 Jace - 1 Force
+1 Pulse, +2 Thoughtseize

Elfes
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -2 Jace, -1 swamp (draw), -1 Stacker - 4 AV
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +1 Duress(draw), +2 Seize, +2 Cage, +1 Pulse, +1 Thief + 1 NoSB

Jund
-3 Force
+1 Pulse, +2 Seize

Miracle
-2 Deluge, -3 Liliana, -1 Swamp - 1 Tombs.
+1 Pulse, +1 Thief, , +1 Rod, +2 Duress, +2 Seize

Sneak-Show
-2 Toxic D. -4 Decay, -1 Tombst. , -4 Tarmogoyf -1 Forest
+1 Savannah, +4 Mage, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +1 Notion Thief +1 Pulse

Esper-Blade
-4 Force
+1 Rod, +1 Thief, +1 Pulse, +1 NoSB

Reanimator
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -4 Av, -1 swamp, -1 Stacker -1 Abrupt Decay
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +2 Cage, +1 Thief

RUG Delver
-2 Jace
+ 1 Savannah +1 Maelstrom Pulse

Cheers!

[ORDAL]

Why side out liliana vs miracle? i think is so good vs miracle,I always won against miracle when I casted liliana early. And i tested so much vs miracle, because in my team there are many miracles player. When she is on the board the dont have easy way to destroy her and many times we can solve his final in three or four rounds. IMHO

[Goosen]

I like Liliana against Miracles aswell but all other cards are great too. Sometimes it is not specielly good specielly on draw and your opponent have a Vendilion the same can happen late game. But it is much better if you play with more discard like Hymn because then you can make your way for the Liliana. Both removing instant Creatures, Counters or just striping down there hand so when you use Liliana's discard ability it's matter more. If I would have Baleful Strix in the main it would makes more seens aswell keep Liliana because it blocks Vendilion or Snapcaster.

But now without either of them more often they can just discard something random and play jace next turn or like I meantion just play Vendilion.

If I wanna keep it I will have more problems when Jace hit the table because some of the cards I would sb out is creatures.

[Barbed Blightning]

Hi Guys

Maybe I can answer some question now when Lejay is away. I have been playing this list over a month, with only one change in the sb -1 Leyline + 1 Cage. I feel that 1 Leyline is to random and like that I could cascade into Cage. Have discussed but Lejay likes one offs. :-) It is a really good deck, had difficult choice between this deck and another for BOM but last hour I decided to go with the other one. Went 8-2 so cant be unhappy about that but top 8 would be nice, I played against 3 combo decks at BOM (no elfs, which is the only DTB combo I have found this Shardless have atleast 50% against) so dont think Shardless would be a better choose for me.

@ivanpei Often you wanna pick up forest and 1-2 UGS and forest with DRS work aswell to cast Decay. I fetch more times for forest then swamp.

Here are some sb changes for Bonk list "sb guide". Dont have the time look on every deck. Remember I have 2 Cage and no Leyline. And as allways you have to change depends how their list is and how they sb.

UWr Delver
-2 Jace
+1 Rod, +1 Pulse

ANT
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -2 Jace, -1 swamp, -1 Liliana, -1 Stacker - 4 Abrupt Decay
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +2 Cage, +1 Pulse, +1 Thief +1 Null Rod

BUG Tempo
-2 Jace - 1 Force
+1 Pulse, +2 Thoughtseize

Elfes
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -2 Jace, -1 swamp (draw), -1 Stacker - 4 AV
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +1 Duress(draw), +2 Seize, +2 Cage, +1 Pulse, +1 Thief + 1 NoSB

Jund
-3 Force
+1 Pulse, +2 Seize

Miracle
-2 Deluge, -3 Liliana, -1 Swamp - 1 Tombs.
+1 Pulse, +1 Thief, , +1 Rod, +2 Duress, +2 Seize

Sneak-Show
-2 Toxic D. -4 Decay, -1 Tombst. , -4 Tarmogoyf -1 Forest
+1 Savannah, +4 Mage, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +1 Notion Thief +1 Pulse

Esper-Blade
-4 Force
+1 Rod, +1 Thief, +1 Pulse, +1 NoSB

Reanimator
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -4 Av, -1 swamp, -1 Stacker -1 Abrupt Decay
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +2 Cage, +1 Thief

RUG Delver
-2 Jace
+ 1 Savannah +1 Maelstrom Pulse

Cheers!

Against miracles, I'd sooner go:
-2 Waste, -2 Deluge, -1 Stalker
+1 Thief, +1 Rod, +1 Pulse, +2 Duress (golgari charm in my list)

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[wcm8]

Has anyone (besides me) ever tested dropping Ancestral Vision for Ponder?

Vision is a great card and obviously can be taken advantage of in a deck that can set up a cascade trigger. It's great as a turn 1 play if you don't have a DRS, and against many decks that are slower the card advantage can be the key to winning.

However, in almost every other instance the immediate card selection and filter provided by Ponder is better. Beyond turns 1-3, (against just about anything that isn't UWr Miracles) suspending a Vision is pretty mediocre compared to just being able to immediately draw into a threat/answer/land/counterspell/etc. Also consider how sometimes your Vision just draws into 3 Lands or otherwise useless cards for a given matchup. Overall I'd say that Vision is a pretty clunky, random card.

I think BUG Cascade already has a fantastic game against non-combo decks, just by the nature of playing a bunch of blowout cards like Toxic Deluge, Liliana, Jace, DRS, Tarmogoyf, and Shardless Agent. You can generally just plow through a lot of decks regardless of whether or not you ever resolved a Vision. Often, cascading into Vision is 'win-more', since the deck has plenty of card advantage as it is. Ponder is also often a better topdeck when you're behind on the board state.

Playing Ponder over Vision drops a few points against control and midrange, but gives the deck more power in the early turns against Combo and Tempo decks. In these matchups, you need to be proactive in disruption and/or building a board state, and twiddling your thumbs while a Vision ticks down leaves you extremely vulnerable to these decks enacting their own game-plan. Against RUG or UWR Delver, suspending Vision often grants them enough time to find a timely Pyroblast or Stifle. Against BUG or DnT, perhaps you've given them enough time to find a Notion Thief or a Spirit of the Labyrinth. Against SNT, you just die to their combo on turn 2 or 3. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if you have 7 cards in hand if you end up losing.

Ponder smoothes out how the deck operates. In game 1 it allows you to adjust your strategy against the matchup at hand in the early turns. In sideboard games it increases the likelihood of finding your sideboard cards in a reasonable timeframe. I don't deny that Ancestral Vision is a powerful card, but given how fast the format is right now I think that Shardless BUG would fair somewhat better against the format as a whole by running Ponder.

In testing I haven't noticed any significant drawbacks with the change, while I *have* noticed the aforementioned advantages.

I'd be curious to hear what you all think, but it's worth testing a bit for yourself prior to any speculation in the abstract.

[Jessenator]

Has anyone (besides me) ever tested dropping Ancestral Vision for Ponder?

Vision is a great card and obviously can be taken advantage of in a deck that can set up a cascade trigger. It's great as a turn 1 play if you don't have a DRS, and against many decks that are slower the card advantage can be the key to winning.

However, in almost every other instance the immediate card selection and filter provided by Ponder is better. Beyond turns 1-3, (against just about anything that isn't UWr Miracles) suspending a Vision is pretty mediocre compared to just being able to immediately draw into a threat/answer/land/counterspell/etc. Also consider how sometimes your Vision just draws into 3 Lands or otherwise useless cards for a given matchup. Overall I'd say that Vision is a pretty clunky, random card.

I think BUG Cascade already has a fantastic game against non-combo decks, just by the nature of playing a bunch of blowout cards like Toxic Deluge, Liliana, Jace, DRS, Tarmogoyf, and Shardless Agent. You can generally just plow through a lot of decks regardless of whether or not you ever resolved a Vision. Often, cascading into Vision is 'win-more', since the deck has plenty of card advantage as it is.

Admittedly, playing Ponder over Vision drops a few points against control and midrange, but gives the deck quite a bit more power in the early turns against Combo and Tempo decks. In these matchups, you need to be proactive in disruption and/or building a board state, and twiddling your thumbs while a Vision ticks down leaves you extremely vulnerable to these decks enacting their own game-plan. Against RUG or UWR Delver, suspending Vision often grants them enough time to find a timely Pyroblast or Stifle. Against BUG or DnT, perhaps you've given them enough time to find a Notion Thief or a Spirit of the Labyrinth. Against SNT, you just die to their combo on turn 2 or 3. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if you have 7 cards in hand if you end up losing.

Ponder smoothes out how the deck operates. In game 1 it allows you to adjust your strategy against the matchup at hand in the early turns. In sideboard games it increases the likelihood of finding your sideboard cards in a reasonable timeframe. I don't deny that Ancestral Vision is a powerful card, but given how fast the format is right now I think that Shardless BUG would fair somewhat better against the format as a whole by running Ponder.

In testing I haven't noticed any significant drawbacks with the change, while I *have* noticed the aforementioned advantages.

I'd be curious to hear what you all think, but it's worth testing a bit for yourself prior to any speculation in the abstract.

Hey buddy! It's been a while and I hope all is going well with you lately. You planning to make it down here for Columbus SCG at all next month? Would love to theory-craft/test with you in before then.

Anyways, I think the point of running Toxic Deluge in a deck like this is to off-set the tempo loss caused by suspending an AV. Ponder allows you to find certain cards at certain times much easier (best in Delver decks because it's an early game focused deck and card quality is more important here). In a deck like Shardless you don't exactly care about the quality of cards, quantity is often always better. You do make a point of Ponder being very smooth early game, so it's not unrealistic that could be a replacement.

But in a deck that bases itself on turn 3+, with higher mana cost, Ponder isn't the best since you cannot use many of the cards you look through immediately to great effect the turn after or the same turn. (like Delver can find Stifle/Pierce/Daze/Hymn and cast them almost immediately). Cards like Sylvan Library are great in this deck because they serve similar effects, but in a way more powerful form, as the game drags on, Library filters through more cards and results in greater value.

TL;DR I think Ponder is sub-optimal due to the fact that cards in this deck have a higher mana cost, and those cards have greater/similar effects during mid/late game than early game. Once you have the mana for mid/late game, you just want to have a bunch of cards to cast turn after turn.

[Metaldream]

Hello guys,
what are your in/out versus D&T?
I know it's a positive matchup but close to be difficult.

[dionykos]

Hello guys,
what are your in/out versus D&T?
I know it's a positive matchup but close to be difficult.

I have been trying the following:
+ 1 Pulse
+ 1 Rod
+ 1 Nosb
+ 2 Seize
- 4 Fow
-1 Jace

And I'm seriously considering cutting the 2nd Jace for the Savannah.

[Goosen]

I have been trying the following:
+ 1 Pulse
+ 1 Rod
+ 1 Nosb
+ 2 Seize
- 4 Fow
-1 Jace

And I'm seriously considering cutting the 2nd Jace for the Savannah.

Agree with this against DnT and I am sb in the extra land. But instead of removing the 2nd Jace I cut Tombstalker, almost allways sb it out against RIP decks. With Tarmogoyf you can allways just decay rip and Tarmo starts growing again, but it is very hard to play Tombstalker if they have at any pooint played RIP.

[Barbed Blightning]

Agree with this against DnT and I am sb in the extra land. But instead of removing the 2nd Jace I cut Tombstalker, almost allways sb it out against RIP decks. With Tarmogoyf you can allways just decay rip and Tarmo starts growing again, but it is very hard to play Tombstalker if they have at any pooint played RIP.

He's also complete garbage if it's UW with JTMS.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[Jessenator]

What's the general consensus against Deathblade? Do we want discard or Force? Has anyone had good experience with Forces?

Right now I've been doing

+1 Null Rod
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Notion Thief

-2 Force of Will
-1 Tombstalker

-----
Or do we want?
+1 Null Rod
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Notion Thief
+2 Thoughtseize

-4 Force of Will
-1 Tombstalker

Thanks all.

[Barbed Blightning]

What's the general consensus against Deathblade? Do we want discard or Force? Has anyone had good experience with Forces?

Right now I've been doing

+1 Null Rod
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Notion Thief

-2 Force of Will
-1 Tombstalker

-----
Or do we want?
+1 Null Rod
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Notion Thief
+2 Thoughtseize

-4 Force of Will
-1 Tombstalker

Thanks all.

It's a question of play style, I think. Personally I find the prospect of 1-for-1 discard more attractive than 2-for-1 countermagic--but, then again, I'm an aggressive player. If you are more conservative, keeping a FoW up for their Jace/SFM/bomb is good, too--if they don't have Pierce or some other nastiness.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[Goosen]

I prefer Thoughseize over FOW and I allways sb in NoSB aswell.

[infiniteJ]

I do not like too much spot discard vs deathblade. A few thoughtseizes are fine but don't over do it. It's a grindy matchup which makes them dead late draws and terrible cascades. I do not mind force of will that much and leave a few in to answer key cards in the mid to late game (hardcasting is fine or pitching after a resolved AV).

[infiniteJ]

Also, I find Lilliana to be the strongest card in the deck in most matchups and rarely side her out.

I think the suggestion to side her out in favor of spot discard vs miracles is wrong. I'm open to debating the issue but I won't likely change my own strategy. Spot discard is at it's worst against miracles, doubly so on the draw. Miracles is a deck that plays off the top. Sure only a few cards matter- Top and Entreat. But you will almost never catch those with discard. Instead, you need force of will. Yes, i understand V clique is a fine answer vs lilliana, but they have to find it, resolve it, and have it live before your lilliana gets up to a decent loyalty.

-IJ

[Jessenator]

Okay I will try that SB option with -2 FoW and +2 Thoughtseize vs Deathblade. I don't know if I would side Night of Sou's Betrayal against only (average) 3 cards in their deck. Especially with 3 Liliana / Deluge in the mainboard.

And when I play Miracles I usually like to use the opponent's Liliana against them. You do this by floating an Entreat with SDT and making the Liliana's controller go into Hellbend. Since discard spells isn't that good against Miracles the instant they put a top onto the board. Be careful going to hellbend vs Miracles.

[Goosen]

Okay I will try that SB option with -2 FoW and +2 Thoughtseize vs Deathblade. I don't know if I would side Night of Sou's Betrayal against only (average) 3 cards in their deck. Especially with 3 Liliana / Deluge in the mainboard.

Only 3? They have 3-4 TNN and then 3-4 Snapcaster/Vendilion. Sure they still get value of Snapcaster but a 2/1 should not be ignored and it makes your Liliana even better. More answer is better and often when you lose is because of TNN. They have discards and counter(atleast preboard) so you cant be sure Toxic Deluge will resolv and Liliana is not a reliable answer.

[wcm8]

Hey buddy! It's been a while and I hope all is going well with you lately. You planning to make it down here for Columbus SCG at all next month? Would love to theory-craft/test with you in before then.

Anyways, I think the point of running Toxic Deluge in a deck like this is to off-set the tempo loss caused by suspending an AV. Ponder allows you to find certain cards at certain times much easier (best in Delver decks because it's an early game focused deck and card quality is more important here). In a deck like Shardless you don't exactly care about the quality of cards, quantity is often always better. You do make a point of Ponder being very smooth early game, so it's not unrealistic that could be a replacement.

But in a deck that bases itself on turn 3+, with higher mana cost, Ponder isn't the best since you cannot use many of the cards you look through immediately to great effect the turn after or the same turn. (like Delver can find Stifle/Pierce/Daze/Hymn and cast them almost immediately). Cards like Sylvan Library are great in this deck because they serve similar effects, but in a way more powerful form, as the game drags on, Library filters through more cards and results in greater value.

TL;DR I think Ponder is sub-optimal due to the fact that cards in this deck have a higher mana cost, and those cards have greater/similar effects during mid/late game than early game. Once you have the mana for mid/late game, you just want to have a bunch of cards to cast turn after turn.


Yeah, Columbus SCG might work, get in touch with me and we can figure out specifics. :cool:

I understand how Vision offsets the card disadvantage from playing Force of Will, and also that Toxic Deluge can buy you enough time to fire it off. I also see the validity in the argument that the deck takes better advantage of card quantity over card-selection since the curve is higher. But these aspects of AV are mainly applicable against midrange decks, which is where BUG Cascade doesn't have too much trouble to begin with.

Running Ponder simply makes the deck better against combo and tempo, which is where I think BUG Cascade can struggle. I'd rather keep a middling opening-7 with a Ponder in it than be forced to mulligan down to worthwhile hate. I'd also much rather topdeck a Ponder if I am behind on board state.

To use a nerdy metaphor, think about Speed Runs of popular video games, let's use Super Metroid for example. Running Ancestral Vision is kind of like stopping to pick up additional Missiles and Energy Tanks, getting the Grappling Hook and Screw Attack etc., which all makes for a 'safer' run but adds unnecessary time. Ponder is like skipping out on every optional item, breaking the sequence by doing wall jumps and other exploits, but still ultimately finishing the game albeit with only 3 energy tanks and 25 missiles (or whatever it is). The point I'm trying to make is, it doesn't matter if you win with 7 cards in hand or zero, the point is that the opponent is dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liGge39QoxM

This entire argument/comparison might be more applicable to differences between BUG Cascade and BUG Delver, but I think that BUG Cascade simply becomes a stronger deck against most of the field if its able to accelerate into its threats/answers/bombs. Ponder is restricted in Vintage for a reason.

Perhaps 2/2 or 3/1 split is worth testing. This way you keep up the Blue count for FoW, but can selectively side out whichever one happens to be weaker in a given matchup.

[Jessenator]

Yeah, Columbus SCG might work, get in touch with me and we can figure out specifics. :cool:

I understand how Vision offsets the card disadvantage from playing Force of Will, and also that Toxic Deluge can buy you enough time to fire it off. I also see the validity in the argument that the deck takes better advantage of card quantity over card-selection since the curve is higher. But these aspects of AV are mainly applicable against midrange decks, which is where BUG Cascade doesn't have too much trouble to begin with.

Running Ponder simply makes the deck better against combo and tempo, which is where I think BUG Cascade can struggle. I'd rather keep a middling opening-7 with a Ponder in it than be forced to mulligan down to worthwhile hate. I'd also much rather topdeck a Ponder if I am behind on board state.

To use a nerdy metaphor, think about Speed Runs of popular video games, let's use Super Metroid for example. Running Ancestral Vision is kind of like stopping to pick up additional Missiles and Energy Tanks, getting the Grappling Hook and Screw Attack etc., which all makes for a 'safer' run but adds unnecessary time. Ponder is like skipping out on every optional item, breaking the sequence by doing wall jumps and other exploits, but still ultimately finishing the game albeit with only 3 energy tanks and 25 missiles (or whatever it is). The point I'm trying to make is, it doesn't matter if you win with 7 cards in hand or zero, the point is that the opponent is dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liGge39QoxM

This entire argument/comparison might be more applicable to differences between BUG Cascade and BUG Delver, but I think that BUG Cascade simply becomes a stronger deck against most of the field if its able to accelerate into its threats/answers/bombs. Ponder is restricted in Vintage for a reason.

Perhaps 2/2 or 3/1 split is worth testing. This way you keep up the Blue count for FoW, but can selectively side out whichever one happens to be weaker in a given matchup.

Well don't forget Ancestral Visions is banned in Modern. :tongue: I guess we just have different philsophies on deck building and playstyle. I respect your judgment on Ponder, it's obviously a powerful card. I wouldn't mind playing cantrips but Sylvan Library is probably the best card to do that in a mid range deck, far out valuing Ponder in my opinion.

I also would be very reluctant about keeping a no-hate hand w/ a Ponder, obviously the match up is dependent but I have no problem mulliganing a mediocore / slow 7 card hand when a deck like this gives you effects that draws you 3 cards. I can definitely see adding a Ponder, maybe taking out the Tombstalker for it, but I just don't see going down below 4 Ancestral Visions. Probably just going back and forth between arguments.

I'm in China at the moment visiting family, I'll be back around the 7-8th of June! Message me on FB if you want to discuss this further, living arrangements, etc.

[DarkKeeper]

Any thoughts about James Rynkiewicz's list?! discard is back into MD, and also does Strix... its pretty interesting... what do you ppl think about this?!

[Jessenator]

Any thoughts about James Rynkiewicz's list?! discard is back into MD, and also does Strix... its pretty interesting... what do you ppl think about this?!

seems like another fine list to me. It's basically your read on the meta and how you want to configure your deck to it. If your meta is a ton of combo, don't play Shardless or play Shardless with lots of discard. Lejay's list is focused on sacrificing combo matchups game 1, which means discard has to go and that gives a higher probability of cascading into Ancestral Visions. Sylvan Library is another form of card advantage as well for 2 mana. The Deluge also answers Elves game 1 and True-Name Nemesis. And gives a timely reset into a turn 4 Ancestral Visions after suspend.

There's nothing wrong with the other guy's list. Just meta/deck building preferences.

[defector]

I really like the two strix now that RUG seems to be coming back into fashion.

[btm10]

I've been on the non-Shardless BUG control lists recently, and I feel the same way. I briefly dropped Strix for 2 MD Deluge, but Strix is better against RUG because it allows them to misplay by attacking incorrectly, costs less, dodges Spell Pierce, and at worst eats a Bolt that would otherwise kill DRS.