[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[tons of fun]

Charm is also maindeckable and has other modes that do relevant things. Brain Freeze is good in no other matchups (aside from High Tide, I guess) and is pretty marginal against Miracles. And Counterbalance? Seriously? That's what you're worried about?



This is basically my argument for Nourish from above; I think the real question at this point is "is it even worth boarding for Burn?" rather than "what's the best sideboard card for Burn?".

i agree chill hurts burn way too much i have shut a burn deck down with the turn 2 chill allow for the draw into the turn 5 chill im am in a extremely heavy burn played area out of 16 players in the area 9 of them play burn

[ChildofKorlis]

charms other modes are just not as good as they should be and 2 it keeps the top draws off line so they cant end of the turn top draw entreat for the win see the point of a sideboard is to have cards that help specific match ups and guess what it helps against not only mircles it does wonders against show and tell decks especialy the brainstorm that responds to the thoughts seize i mean it works for what i want it for it does wonders its a bigger impact then u think cuz u mill and hit one maybe 2 entreats is huge against them cuz u can beat them in the grind match with miracles easily its the entreat u dont want to happen at the end of ur turn

Dimir charm's other modes are more useful than most people think. Kills so many creatures, and can kill Bob in storm without be dead against the rest of the deck like most removal spells. Also, if you're worried about an Entreat on your end step via SDT, then counterbalance will have a 1 on top. I don't see the scenario that they could have 2 tops in play or 1 top and a brainstorm in hand as well as Entreat on top and counterbalance in play is likely enough to warrant using a bad card in place of a good card. Brainfreeze off of cascade is worse than useless, as it could fuel dig/snapcaster shenanigans for them later on.

[tons of fun]

Dimir charm's other modes are more useful than most people think. Kills so many creatures, and can kill Bob in storm without be dead against the rest of the deck like most removal spells. Also, if you're worried about an Entreat on your end step via SDT, then counterbalance will have a 1 on top. I don't see the scenario that they could have 2 tops in play or 1 top and a brainstorm in hand as well as Entreat on top and counterbalance in play is likely enough to warrant using a bad card in place of a good card. Brainfreeze off of cascade is worse than useless, as it could fuel dig/snapcaster shenanigans for them later on.

let see i beat miracles omnitell and due to this card u love it off the cascade because of it mills 6 cards and miracles can only for or counter only one while they try tin in reponse draw. i swept 2 legacy tournements now with this deck and the freezes have ruin sneak and oni and miracles every time i have used it
dimir charm is useless in the current meta to man creatures that power are out of it range that this deck cares about

[tons of fun]

if u question the brain freeze go try it out ull see were it can be very good in the match ups that i board it in against

[Thorhammer]

Dimir Charm kills every creature in the format except goyf and "I wins" (Griselbrand/emrakul/hoof). Oh and flickerwisp/brimaz I guess... It also counters the following: Nat order, green sun, glimpse of nature, show n tell, entreat, terminus, past in flames, infernal tutor, ancestral vision, lava spike, rift bolt, chain lightning, flame rift, life from the loam, ponder... the list goes on. I have cast the card in all three modes in a single match before. Overall a pretty useful card. I don't know if it's as good in a post cruise world but we will see. It is also a blue card which can be relevant.

[tons of fun]

Dimir Charm kills every creature in the format except goyf and "I wins" (Griselbrand/emrakul/hoof). Oh and flickerwisp/brimaz I guess... It also counters the following: Nat order, green sun, glimpse of nature, show n tell, entreat, terminus, past in flames, infernal tutor, ancestral vision, lava spike, rift bolt, chain lightning, flame rift, life from the loam, ponder... the list goes on. I have cast the card in all three modes in a single match before. Overall a pretty useful card. I don't know if it's as good in a post cruise world but we will see. It is also a blue card which can be relevant.

so clique,truename, batter skull,

[TheHeff]

I had a question about sb, my old list had 2 nihil spell bomb and 1 grafdigger's cage in the gy hate spot and am thinking about making it just 2 cage. What mu's was spellbomb good in that cage wasnt? Lands? I never remember bringing it in against RUG to cut down Goose. Maybe if Dig Through Time gets more play spellbomb could be better? Here's my SB for an unknown meta:

2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique

Thoughts? Full list in sig

[drocker23]

I had a question about sb, my old list had 2 nihil spell bomb and 1 grafdigger's cage in the gy hate spot and am thinking about making it just 2 cage. What mu's was spellbomb good in that cage wasnt? Lands? I never remember bringing it in against RUG to cut down Goose. Maybe if Dig Through Time gets more play spellbomb could be better? Here's my SB for an unknown meta:

2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique

Thoughts? Full list in sig

The thing that keeps turning me away from Shardless BUG is how difficult combo matchups can be. Thoughtseize/Hymn to Tourach/Liliana of the Veil do go a long way with dealing with these decks but sometimes it just isn't enough. I feel like Shardless BUG is basically like a Blue Jund. Great against fair decks. It can be tailored even more in the main to beat aggressive creature decks, but the combo matchups are still pretty loose. Force of Will does help, but sometimes the deck can take a pretty long time to win a game unless it has hit its Tarmogoyfs. Trying to beat combo with 1/1's and 2/2's can give them enough time to draw out of the disruption. I know it's not very popular, but I feel like there is a lot of merit to running Meddling Mage in the sideboard. Maybe even a 2/2 split of Meddling Mage and Containment Priest. I think the format is really all about what's on the table, not necessarily about what's in their hand. Of course there are a few exceptions to this, but in general I think tailoring your sideboard to beating combo is a very real thing. Shardless BUG is not really a control deck even though sometimes it feels like it. The deck is designed to bury your opponent in card advantage and take over the game with attrition. But having a big STOP sign against decks like Sneak and Show or ANT can really buy the deck a lot of time to put the game away.

[pocari79]

Played shardless bug in a small tournament this weekend and made top 4. Played this list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tarpit
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Visions
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Meddling Mage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Savannah
1 Duress
1 Nights of Souls' Betrayal
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Notion Thief

Round 1 - Forgemaster MUD, Loss(0-2)
This was totally miserable, I was able to wasteland a couple of times and counter a trinisphere but he ended up getting enough mana to cast Sundering Titan to armageddon me and then played Platinum Angel. Game 2 was pretty similar. It feels like this is just a totally miserable matchup that can't be won unless you just keep on wastelanding the opponent?

Round 2 - 5C Slivers, Win(2-1)
This was not the classic slivers deck. It played all the mana slivers, had Training Grounds and maindeck Natural Orders into the 5c slivers. Game 2 I got Blood Mooned and then he Natural Ordered into Sliver Queen and he was able to make infinite tokens since he had Training Grounds and Heart Sliver in play. Sad times!

Round 3 - Shardless Nic Fit, Win(2-0)
Nothing much to say about this matchup except that I knew beforehand what he was playing and game 1 I kept a one land hand with Deathrite Shaman and hoped that he would sac Veteran Explorer to get me out of land screw and he did. I kept a similar hand game 2 and he ended up not giving me the lands from Veteran Explorer but then I eventually drew out of my mana screw and then rolled over him.

Round 4 - UWR Stoneblade, Win(2-0)
This was a crazy grindy matchup which was pretty fun to play. Game 2 actually ended with me having 6 cards in my library and he had 7 cards left. Won this match by resolving an early Night of Souls' Betrayal which blanked all of his threats.

Made Top 4 and then we just split. Top 4 consisted of 2 Deadguy Ales, Shardless Nic Fit and Shardless BUG.

- This was the first time I tried out the Meddling Mage sideboard package. I didn't play against any combo decks so I didn't have a chance to board it in.
- The Leyline of the Void should probably be something else like Surgical Extraction or Nihil Spellbomb. I'm actually not sure why Lejay selected a leyline for graveyard hate when there's so many other cards to choose from?
- I wanted to try out Tasigur just for the hell of it and it actually did pretty well in the grindy matchups. Just make sure that when you delve, remove all the non-land cards you don't want to get back in your graveyard and then you should be good to go.
- The next day I was testing this deck against the Tezzerator deck and wow, I have no idea how to beat that matchup either. They have so many ways to attack you and once a Tezzeret resolves it seems like the game is over.

[TheHeff]

- The Leyline of the Void should probably be something else like Surgical Extraction or Nihil Spellbomb. I'm actually not sure why Lejay selected a leyline for graveyard hate when there's so many other cards to choose from?
Leyline comes down turn 0 and is uncounterable (so plays around countermagic in Reanimator) for 0 mana, so it's pretty good. Like you pointed out though, there are tons of good GY hate cards. Lejay obviously felt he needed the upside and was willing to live with the downside, I guess.

- I wanted to try out Tasigur just for the hell of it and it actually did pretty well in the grindy matchups. Just make sure that when you delve, remove all the non-land cards you don't want to get back in your graveyard and then you should be good to go.
I saw him pop up as a 1-of in the SCG Legacy event this past weekend. Worth a MB spot or better SB, you think?

- The next day I was testing this deck against the Tezzerator deck and wow, I have no idea how to beat that matchup either. They have so many ways to attack you and once a Tezzeret resolves it seems like the game is over.
Tezzerator has really good game against control decks, so it's not supposed to be a terribly good matchup. It's why I play things like Maelstrom Pulse, Pithing Needle, and Null Rod in the sideboard- they're really versatile cards that give you a chance against decks like Tezz.

On a side note, SCG posted the results from the Legacy Premier IQ this past weekend here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=01/25/2015&end_date=01/25/2015&start=1&finish=32&city=Washington&state=DC&limit=50). 5 Shardless BUG in the top 32, nice showing! If any of you guys are here on source, I'd love to pick your brain a little bit about card choices! Anyone can feel free to chime in, but here's what I have:

I had forgotten when KTK first came out, a lot of Shardless decks went to 3 Visions / 2 DTT and that trend re-emerged this past weekend. I've not tested with DTT in this deck, is it worth it?
A couple pilots opted for less planeswalkers (1 Jace, 2 Lili) in favor of more discard, is this just trying to keep the deck as flexible as possible for a more unknown meta? I personally loved the 2/3 split I was playing before KTK... :P
Baleful Strix falling a bit out of favor in those lists, do the Delver/creature matchups suffer without them?
With Containment Priest out, is the SB white splash worth the 5-6 cards (Scrubland + x Meddling Mage/Containment Priest) against the combo matchups?

[James_Nguyen]

The deck is designed to bury your opponent in card advantage and take over the game with attrition.

That sounds like a control deck to me...

[pocari79]

@TheHeff

I actually think that the one Tasigur is all right in the maindeck since I feel that the deck is a bit threat light. I initially thought it would just be a bad 5th goyf but if you think about it, it can't be decayed, doesn't die from a bolt, can block a bunch of threats while staying alive, and has a chance to give you card advantage. If you ever manage to cast Tasigur and have 4 mana open to activate the ability, it feels like you are just going to drown them in card quality.

Also, if the meta shifts back to being a bunch of delver decks and less combo, Tasigur will be a good maindeck card for the mid/late game.

[nossirag]

@TheHeff

I actually think that the one Tasigur is all right in the maindeck since I feel that the deck is a bit threat light. I initially thought it would just be a bad 5th goyf but if you think about it, it can't be decayed, doesn't die from a bolt, can block a bunch of threats while staying alive, and has a chance to give you card advantage. If you ever manage to cast Tasigur and have 4 mana open to activate the ability, it feels like you are just going to drown them in card quality.

Also, if the meta shifts back to being a bunch of delver decks and less combo, Tasigur will be a good maindeck card for the mid/late game.

I played an almost similar list to yours at a 60 people tournament, with some good players like Mark Koenig participating.
Had to drop when I was 4 - 2 - 0 due to a private thing.
The only difference was that I played a TNN instead of Trasigur and I added a sylvan Library for one discard spell.
TNN was okay, especially when I boarded the Jitte in, I think he won me one game, I will definitely try out Traisugr in this spot. Sylvan Library was doing so much work though, it won me at least one game vs UWR bladecontrol and made several other matches way easier(arranging top cards for an incoming cascade is beyond good).
Having 1 or 2 Krosan Grip in the Sideboard makes alot of sense and it helped me alot.
My main problem in most matches is getting to 3 mana, when they play a lot of disruption.

[LarsLeif]

The thing that keeps turning me away from Shardless BUG is how difficult combo matchups can be. Thoughtseize/Hymn to Tourach/Liliana of the Veil do go a long way with dealing with these decks but sometimes it just isn't enough. I feel like Shardless BUG is basically like a Blue Jund. Great against fair decks. It can be tailored even more in the main to beat aggressive creature decks, but the combo matchups are still pretty loose. Force of Will does help, but sometimes the deck can take a pretty long time to win a game unless it has hit its Tarmogoyfs. Trying to beat combo with 1/1's and 2/2's can give them enough time to draw out of the disruption. I know it's not very popular, but I feel like there is a lot of merit to running Meddling Mage in the sideboard. Maybe even a 2/2 split of Meddling Mage and Containment Priest. I think the format is really all about what's on the table, not necessarily about what's in their hand. Of course there are a few exceptions to this, but in general I think tailoring your sideboard to beating combo is a very real thing. Shardless BUG is not really a control deck even though sometimes it feels like it. The deck is designed to bury your opponent in card advantage and take over the game with attrition. But having a big STOP sign against decks like Sneak and Show or ANT can really buy the deck a lot of time to put the game away.


I've been running MM since Lejay Top8ed BoM with this list and my post-board win% is almost absurd. Almost the entire combo-suite struggles against the 4 discard, 4 MM, 4 Fow and 3 lili.dec you become after board, so adding them is certainly something I recommend. Playing an additional land in the SB is also welcome now as the format is rotating back to wasteland and mana denial strategies like RUG.

Regarding C-Priest vs MM I favor MM. It's a less impactful card against some combo decks, but the fact that they are live against all combo decks (boarding C-Priest against Storm is pretty miserable) makes the choice easy for me. MM also gets better in multiples so 4 of them I believe is the right number.

[LarsLeif]

- This was the first time I tried out the Meddling Mage sideboard package. I didn't play against any combo decks so I didn't have a chance to board it in.
- The Leyline of the Void should probably be something else like Surgical Extraction or Nihil Spellbomb. I'm actually not sure why Lejay selected a leyline for graveyard hate when there's so many other cards to choose from?
- I wanted to try out Tasigur just for the hell of it and it actually did pretty well in the grindy matchups. Just make sure that when you delve, remove all the non-land cards you don't want to get back in your graveyard and then you should be good to go.
- The next day I was testing this deck against the Tezzerator deck and wow, I have no idea how to beat that matchup either. They have so many ways to attack you and once a Tezzeret resolves it seems like the game is over.

MM is fantastic, I recommend them warmly.

Tasigur is certainly interesting, might try him as well.

The Leyline is for punishing fire decks mainly. Remember that 4 mana is not Emrakul-much, it's definitely hardcastable in all matchups. It's also much more impactful than a spellbomb would be against for example dredge or lands.

I've faced Tezzerator with Shardless numerous times and I have about an 80% win rate. Attack their clunky manabase. Decay all signets and talismans and try to keep them off colored mana. Tez is a nutty deck though, and sometimes they "just have it" but try using the fact that the deck is pretty clunky and you will probably have a good chance of beating it.

[pocari79]

I've faced Tezzerator with Shardless numerous times and I have about an 80% win rate. Attack their clunky manabase. Decay all signets and talismans and try to keep them off colored mana. Tez is a nutty deck though, and sometimes they "just have it" but try using the fact that the deck is pretty clunky and you will probably have a good chance of beating it.

Maybe the build of Tezzerator you've playing against is different than the one I was playing against? Post board, I was facing a lot of Trinispheres and Lodestone Golems making all my cards more expensive and turning off cascade at the same time. And they can cast those from colorless mana sources.

Also, I was probably boarding incorrectly as I tried siding in the Meddling Mages along with the few artifact/permanent hate I had but then after a few games I realized that they have just so many different ways to find the cards that they need that Meddling Mages don't do enough. I then tried boarding in the discard spells instead of the Mages and they were a bit better but it was still an uphill battle.

[LarsLeif]

Maybe the build of Tezzerator you've playing against is different than the one I was playing against? Post board, I was facing a lot of Trinispheres and Lodestone Golems making all my cards more expensive and turning off cascade at the same time. And they can cast those from colorless mana sources.

Also, I was probably boarding incorrectly as I tried siding in the Meddling Mages along with the few artifact/permanent hate I had but then after a few games I realized that they have just so many different ways to find the cards that they need that Meddling Mages don't do enough. I then tried boarding in the discard spells instead of the Mages and they were a bit better but it was still an uphill battle.

Yeah I would not board the mages, Lodestone is a beating, but it's smaller than goyf so i haven't found it to be that much of a problem, it depends on their draws of course. I usually board discard if i suspect they board out chalice of the void. Null Rod and Pithing Needle are both fantastic in the matchup naturally.

[TheHeff]

Interesting, I might have to give the MM sb package a try. Here's my current board and how I think I can change it, anyone have any thoughts?

Current:
2x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Vendilion Clique

Proposed MM sb
1x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Meddling Mage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Scrubland
2x Thoughtseize
2x Toxic Deluge

Thoughts? My maindeck setup is 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn, 3 Lili, 2 Jace, 4 FoW, 22 Land

[Vandalize]

So, with TC banned, UR Delver is as powerful anymore. That opens space for BUG decks to shine again, and Shardless BUG is my favorite one.

My latest list is:

Lands [22]
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

Creatures [13]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
1 Tombstalker

Spells [25]
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dig Through Time

Sideboard [15]
2 Disfigure
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Duress
2 Hydroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will

I've been searching for a black 1CMC removal, and Vendetta seemd pretty flashy in my eyes. Lifeloss can be rough, but since I've dropped the Thoughtseizes, this can be recovered. I don't know if it's better than Disfigure, but sometimes Toxic Deluge is too slow. It may be worth testing.

Also, I needed another blue spell to keep the blue count up for Force of Will. Dig Through Time seems fine, as late game gas... Too bad it works poorly with Tombstalker.

Have you guys been rocking Hymns as well? Or just sticking with target discard like Thoughtseize and IoK?

[LarsLeif]

Interesting, I might have to give the MM sb package a try. Here's my current board and how I think I can change it, anyone have any thoughts?

Current:
2x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Vendilion Clique

Proposed MM sb
1x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Meddling Mage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Scrubland
2x Thoughtseize
2x Toxic Deluge

Thoughts? My maindeck setup is 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn, 3 Lili, 2 Jace, 4 FoW, 22 Land

Seems pretty good. I would certainly recommend Night of Souls' Betrayal, that card is insane. I don't know if you have a Sylvan Library somewhere in your MD but that card is similarly insane in this deck, especially against miracles.

[LarsLeif]

So, with TC banned, UR Delver is as powerful anymore. That opens space for BUG decks to shine again, and Shardless BUG is my favorite one.

My latest list is:

Lands [22]
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

Creatures [13]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
1 Tombstalker

Spells [25]
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dig Through Time

Sideboard [15]
2 Disfigure
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Duress
2 Hydroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will

I've been searching for a black 1CMC removal, and Vendetta seemd pretty flashy in my eyes. Lifeloss can be rough, but since I've dropped the Thoughtseizes, this can be recovered. I don't know if it's better than Disfigure, but sometimes Toxic Deluge is too slow. It may be worth testing.

Also, I needed another blue spell to keep the blue count up for Force of Will. Dig Through Time seems fine, as late game gas... Too bad it works poorly with Tombstalker.

Have you guys been rocking Hymns as well? Or just sticking with target discard like Thoughtseize and IoK?

It bothers me a bit that Vendetta does not kill DRS, and if you bring it in against RUG Delver the lifeloss might be pretty bad. Disfigure is not very good either though but I think it's overall a bit better.

I run 0 discard main and 3 seize, 1 duress SB. Targeted discard is nice together with meddling mage.

If you want another blue card for FoW but are unsure about DTT, then maybe the 4th FoW is better?

[wcm8]

If you're dipping into White for Meddling Mage in the SB, you might also want to run a couple copies of Containment Priest. She solves quite a few problems this deck has as a form of cascade-able anti-combo permanent.

Personally I think Lejay's list is close to optimal. There are probably a few slots that can be swapped around for your local meta. I think if Miracles comes back in a big way, this is the deck configuration to run.

[SilkyPimP]

I have not really played since the invitational in Seattle. Been suuuuuper busy.
I went X-0 until the finals of a IQ with this build. Lost to elves in the finals because I got greedy and wanted to put him on a 1 turn clock.
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15483&iddeck=115114

Cant wait to add the hymns back in because of TC banning. I will also be running a 1 of Dig in the spot for testing. The sideboard i ran should be ignored, made for my local meta.

I played 3 Lily/3 thoughtseize/2hymn Pre khans. I might go to 2/2/2 with duressx1 and thoughtseizex2 out the board if combo starts being big in my area/opens.

The Dig Through Time is WAY harder to cast with its double blue cc,and most of the time I am chasing for a goyf/jace to finish them after locking the board up. I Like it so far but can see cutting it.

I still don't like 4 Ancestral (drawing multiple early always felt bad for me when I had zero fetchlands/ways to get rid of them and they are crushing me with threats.)

Glad to see this deck is hot again.

[edahl]

If you're dipping into White for Meddling Mage in the SB, you might also want to run a couple copies of Containment Priest. She solves quite a few problems this deck has as a form of cascade-able anti-combo permanent.

Personally I think Lejay's list is close to optimal. There are probably a few slots that can be swapped around for your local meta. I think if Miracles comes back in a big way, this is the deck configuration to run.

This thing?
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/247720#online

[wcm8]

This thing?
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/247720#online

Yes. That's the one. Basically he drops all discard from the main deck, in an effort to make the main 60 as good against 'fair' decks as possible. And then the sideboard is designed to address combo.

[LarsLeif]

Yes. That's the one. Basically he drops all discard from the main deck, in an effort to make the main 60 as good against 'fair' decks as possible. And then the sideboard is designed to address combo.

I run that deck as well and it's very good, definitely the correct way to build this deck.

[Thorhammer]

Took down the local last night with good ol shardless. Love Love the deck. I'm a BUG Delver (Team America) player by trade but I switched to this after TCruise showed up and I ain't going back.

Round 1 Miracles
BUG Delver always felt miserable against Miracles but Shardless feels much better. Game one I ride a loner goyf against his lifetotal for a while till he ends up at 2. He should have been at one but I missed a point when I didn't crack my fetch. He finally terminuses but by then I have a fistful of dudes that i just deploy one at a time. I played Tasigur as a one of and he is great but he can never be more than a one of because of that one stupid card --Karakas. But he did get me back a force with his ability which allowed me to protect my final win con. Game 2 I get the nuts of deathrite into Double hymn to tourach. He slumps in his chair and I grind his face into the dust.

Round 2: Tezzerator
I noticed people saying this one is difficult to beat. All I can say is Abrupt decay is king. Kills all their win cons and problematic permanents. Thoughtseize is also excellent since you just take whatever spell in their hand you can't deal with any other way. Pretty much just walkers and Lodestone golem. I swept him 2-0 on the back of Thoughtseize and decay. Night of Souls betrayal is also good cuz it shuts off foundry. Board in discard but not Hymn cuz Hymn has the tendency to hit irrelevant cards like signets and extra chalices. You want your discard to be precise and nab those tezzerets. Watch out for ensnaring bridge. Make sure you save a decay for it (or a lili ultimate). I also found that chalice on one isnt as bad as it sounds. Sure it shuts off deathrite, Brainstorm, and thoughtseize but your other cards are usually more important. Don't decay it unless you have to. Trinishpere is a must kill/counter. I find this similar to the other types of prison decks; basically a yatzee deck where if they don't have relevance in their opener they are pretty dead. As an added bonus, they don't play blood moon. Take one piece with a thoughtseize and it sets them back a long way.

Round 3: Esper Deathblade
This was a grind fest as you can imagine. He gets stuck on lands game one one and I get going with a lili and some decays and he scoops quickly. Game 2 we trade back and forth for a while but he eventually lands double true-name. We trade life totals for a turn and I do some math and realize i can win if I deploy enough threats. I drop a goyf and a Deathrite and swing in for a chunk while he's tapped out, thinking that he will hold back now that I have a lethal swing. He smirks and shows me the zealous persecution in his hand that adds up to lethal true names. Bah! Game three is quite epic. I struggle with lands for bit and I am behind the whole game. He lands batterskull and jitte and kills my tasigur and strix. He gets me to two and drops true name. Jitte has 3 counters. Not good. I cast dig through time hoping for a miracle. Boom! Night of Soul's Betrayal and Seal of Primordium! The game changes so fast it unbelievable. Jace joins the party and fate seals away any outs and I drop an army of goyfs. Night of souls betrayal is a nasty beating for that deck as they basically have to win with Jace and/or zero power stoneforges and deathrites.

Love me this deck. Seal of Primordium is a pretty decent spell against batterskull decks and MUD stuff. I like it as a one off. I am also on the white splash with 2 Mages and 2 containment priests. Priest is super good against matchups that can be annoying. Elves fold over and dies, show and tell can't win, and reanimator has to kill it or get to eight mana to cast griselbrand. Night of Soul's Betrayal is still good even without young pyromancer shenanigans. Tasigur is definitely good but terrible vs Karakas. You have been warned.

[edahl]

Yes. That's the one. Basically he drops all discard from the main deck, in an effort to make the main 60 as good against 'fair' decks as possible. And then the sideboard is designed to address combo.

Yeah looks good! Like the idea, might build this one.

[Dirk Mantooth]

On a side note, SCG posted the results from the Legacy Premier IQ this past weekend here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=01/25/2015&end_date=01/25/2015&start=1&finish=32&city=Washington&state=DC&limit=50). 5 Shardless BUG in the top 32, nice showing! If any of you guys are here on source, I'd love to pick your brain a little bit about card choices! Anyone can feel free to chime in, but here's what I have:

I had forgotten when KTK first came out, a lot of Shardless decks went to 3 Visions / 2 DTT and that trend re-emerged this past weekend. I've not tested with DTT in this deck, is it worth it?
A couple pilots opted for less planeswalkers (1 Jace, 2 Lili) in favor of more discard, is this just trying to keep the deck as flexible as possible for a more unknown meta? I personally loved the 2/3 split I was playing before KTK... :P
Baleful Strix falling a bit out of favor in those lists, do the Delver/creature matchups suffer without them?
With Containment Priest out, is the SB white splash worth the 5-6 cards (Scrubland + x Meddling Mage/Containment Priest) against the combo matchups?


I'm the guy that finished 19th. Honestly, a lot of my maindeck decisions were just netdecked from a list from the Philly Open. 10 minutes before the tournament started, the guy whose list I copied walked up and told me to play a Tasigur, and I was looking for a good reason to board a Force, so I did. It was really mediocre. Not terrible, but there are other cards that are better. If you have the time to pay 4 mana to do something that doesn't impact the board, you're probably winning anyway (see: The Mind Sculptor, Jace). So while it may feel good, it's kind of win more. But when you can't activate it, it's a Goyf you can't cast until turn 4 (blegh). I'll either play a Baleful Strix, Force, or Planeswalker next time, depending on what meta I'm expecting.

1. Dig is certainly good, and I don't regret playing it, but I'm not sure if this is the deck for it. The graveyard does not fill up that quickly since you're playing permanents instead of Ponders. And since the deck does not want to leave up mana for things like Counterspell, it's usually cast at sorcery speed and when you have nothing else to cast. I'll be playing 4 Visions from here on out, but I'll keep 1 Dig since it is really powerful and my impression could be wrong.
2. The lategame of this deck is pretty much unmatched for a fair blue deck. Thus, I really don't feel like the deck needs 5-ish big bombs like planeswalkers to win those matchups. Also, I've lost too many games to just not having enough lands and time to cast 3-4 mana spells. However I did board a Jace since I needed one more card to board in when I didn't want the Forces.
3. I'd love to jam 4 Strix in the deck, but there really isn't enough room. Again, you smash all of the fair blue decks, so I don't really care about making the deck better against them. If you want to make the Delver matchup better, add a land. The main way you can lose to them is if you can't cast your spells. I actually boarded in the Scrubland when I played against Stifle/Wasteland Delver (and still lost due to mana screw :rolleyes:).
4. The white splash was AMAZING. I would not have done well without it. The deck can't clock combo decks quick enough after you disrupt them, so having a permanent (that attacks too!) to deal with their combo is ideal. Meddling Mage almost single handedly beat ANT for me. No one is going to bring Chain of Vapor/Abrupt Decay in against Shardless, so my opponent was just cold to Pikula.

[Arksz]

This thing?
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/247720#online

Hmm why does it have a leyline of the void over say another grafdiggers cage?

[LarsLeif]

I'm the guy that finished 19th. Honestly, a lot of my maindeck decisions were just netdecked a list from the Philly Open. 10 minutes before the tournament started, the guy whose list I copied walked up and told me to play a Tasigur, and I was looking for a good reason to board a Force, so I did. It was really mediocre. Not terrible, but there are other cards that are better. If you have the time to pay 4 mana to do something that doesn't impact the board, you're probably winning anyway (see: The Mind Sculptor, Jace). So while it may feel good, it's kind of win more. But when you can't activate it, it's a Goyf you can't cast until turn 4 (blegh). I'll either play a Baleful Strix, Force, or Planeswalker next time, depending on what meta I'm expecting.

1. Dig is certainly good, and I don't regret playing it, but I'm not sure if this is the deck for it. The graveyard does not fill up that quickly since you're playing permanents instead of Ponders. And since the deck does not want to leave up mana for things like Counterspell, it's usually cast at sorcery speed and when you have nothing else to cast. I'll be playing 4 Visions from here on out, but I'll keep 1 Dig since it is really powerful and my impression could be wrong.
2. The lategame of this deck is pretty much unmatched for a fair blue deck. Thus, I really don't feel like the deck needs 5-ish big bombs like planeswalkers to win those matchups. Also, I've lost too many games to just not having enough lands and time to cast 3-4 mana spells. However I did board a Jace since I needed one more card to board in when I didn't want the Forces.
3. I'd love to jam 4 Strix in the deck, but there really isn't enough room. Again, you smash all of the fair blue decks, so I don't really care about making the deck better against them. If you want to make the Delver matchup better, add a land. The main way you can lose to them is if you can't cast your spells. I actually boarded in the Scrubland when I played against Stifle/Wasteland Delver (and still lost due to mana screw :rolleyes:).
4. The white splash was AMAZING. I would not have done well without it. The deck can't clock combo decks quick enough after you disrupt them, so having a permanent (that attacks too!) to deal with their combo is ideal. Meddling Mage almost single handedly beat ANT for me. No one is going to bring Chain of Vapor/Abrupt Decay in against Shardless, so my opponent was just cold to Pikula.

1. I think that 1 Delve-spell is about enough in this deck, more than that and we start to get really clunky and become affected by RiP, which is not a good place to be.

2. Miracles have a slight favour endgame against us as entreat just wins. So I recommend 2 MD jace for that matchup to be fair. You can always pitch Jace to FoW (more on that later).

3. Yeah strix is nice but I find it too defensive, this is a usually aggressive midrange deck (depends on the matchup of course). Strix is also bad with deluge, and deluge is more important.

4. It's super good.

On another note, the amount of people not playing 4 Visions and 4 FoW MD is uncomfortably high. If you are to play with such suboptimal cards like Shardless Agent, maximizing your good cascades is really important, as we would not play agent if visions didn't exist. Related to that is force of will. Playing 4 Visions MD means that the deck is a very good home for FoW because:

a. We draw tons of cards so we can recoup the card disadvantage easily.
b. We sometimes end up with one or several visions in our hand and FoW turns these dead cards into gas.
c. FoW gives the deck a mana and tempo-efficient way to interact in the early game before our deck is really comfortable to interact otherwise, which is really important against delver, combo or other strategies.

So in regards to the above stated things I would very much recommend playing 4 Visions and 4 FoW maindeck, that way you can free up a slot in your SB as well for a card more impactful than the 4th fow, like the 4th meddling mage for example.

[Lejay]

Punishing fire and the occasionnal loam deck.

[Arksz]

Punishing fire and the occasionnal loam deck.

Makes sense!
Thanks for the quick reply

How is your infect and elves matchup? Trying to race to a souls betrayal seems kind of slow.

[Lejay]

Makes sense!
Thanks for the quick reply

How is your infect and elves matchup? Trying to race to a souls betrayal seems kind of slow.
Infect was difficult. Sb stp helped and that match-up alone had me chosing sb needle as the sb flex slot. NoSB is à real thing.
Elves match-up was one of the best match-ups once i had enough experience with the build.

I haven't played Magic in a while until today, and didn't play shardless in 5 months. So reading through the thread should answer all questions. My list didn't move in between because i haven't tested.

[Dirk Mantooth]

2. Miracles have a slight favour endgame against us as entreat just wins. So I recommend 2 MD jace for that matchup to be fair. You can always pitch Jace to FoW (more on that later).

When I play against Miracles, they almost never have the ability to hit enough land drops to make Entreat a big issue. They usually need to use their top/cantrips to find enough spells to avoid death since we can just keep throwing permanents at them that need to be answered. Not to mention, Hymn and Wasteland lower the amount of lands they have directly. I easily beat an Entreat for 3 once with a Decay, Planeswalker minus, and a Goyf that was simply bigger than their 4/4. I honestly feel that the matchup is so lopsided in favor of Shardless, we don't need to make concessions to them.

[TheHeff]

Awesome to have Lejay in the thread, thanks for stopping in! Thanks to edahl for posting that list, I had forgotten completely the whole argument about building the maindeck strong against fair decks instead of diluting it down to a "catch-all" list that's just ok against fair decks and slightly less horrible against combo G1. A lot of people have been raving about the MM sideboard package so if it's as good as everyone says, I don't mind letting my G1% against combo slide a bit for that configuration. Quick question about manabase (directed at Lejay but if anyone has experience running his list, I'd love your thoughts too!):

Lejay, your list runs the Savannah board instead of the Scrubland in a lot of people's lists. Is that so that you can fetch a USea and have the complete manabase? Also, are both the basic Forest and Swamp necessary? I get that it allows for Abrupt Decay against Blood Moon, but do you ever find it clunky at times? Also, is the lack of Creeping Tar Pit a nod to how strong the MD configuration is against fair decks? And adding 4 Wasteland gives you another avenue to victory by attacking greedy manabases? Also, how on earth did you come up with the fetch configuration for that list? It's impressive :)

[Lejay]

Lejay, your list runs the Savannah board instead of the Scrubland in a lot of people's lists. Is that so that you can fetch a USea and have the complete manabase? Also, are both the basic Forest and Swamp necessary? I get that it allows for Abrupt Decay against Blood Moon, but do you ever find it clunky at times? Also, is the lack of Creeping Tar Pit a nod to how strong the MD configuration is against fair decks? And adding 4 Wasteland gives you another avenue to victory by attacking greedy manabases? Also, how on earth did you come up with the fetch configuration for that list? It's impressive :)
My list runs savannah because the fetchbase was optimized to search for forest. That arrangement also explains why I have 4 underground seas. To guarantee your color requirements you can fetch the forest next to an underground sea. Since your green can't be wastelanded you can fetch/play underground seas one after another while they are wastelanded, without being screwed for liliana or jace colors. You don't give your opponent the possibility of a very good choice in wastelanding bilands.
Similarly, in post board games where you side in savannah without mana denial possibilities, Usea+Usea+ Savannah means you will be able to cas anything. Turn 2 Sea+Savannah is nice.
Of course that doesn't automatically mean you should fetch a third Usea when you have the forest in play. You may want to cast two green spells in the same turn or gain 2 life + cast a green spell.
All that is true because I don't run baleful strix which would be nonbo both with the forest/savannah and toxic deluge. Hymn and forest have the same issue, but without those two, forest+ swamp advantages clearly overcome potential issues.

Like someone said earlier miracles is a good match-up without adding specific weapons for it. Tar pit has a huge drawback with the CIP effect, your deck wants to curve and smash threats one after the other. Tar pit is good versus miracles but there isn't many more match-ups where I would want to have it. Probably versus deathblade which is 50/50 or slightly favourable. But that alone doesn't make me want CTP into the deck or in SB.
Wasteland is played as a 4-of because the card is very good with DRS, without discard it helps preventing planeswalkers to land, and it is a great help versus Pfire. Your removal suite (Deluge, liliana, decay) also doesn't hit manlands at all. Finally it's the card in legacy that steals the most games, and the win percentage increase on that point alone overweight the drawbacks.

[tons of fun]

Main Deck -

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Baleful Strix
4x Shardless Agent
2x True-Name Nemesis

2x Ancestral Vision
3x Thoughtseize
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Thopter Foundry
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Force of Will
2x Dig Through Time
1x Sword of the Meek

1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Forest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
3x Tropical Island
4x Underground

Sideboard -

1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x flusterstorm
3x Chill 6th Edition
2x Leyline of the Void
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Brain Freeze
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Golgari Charm


ill be running this list again ofr a legacy monthy and a 40 duals

[Thorhammer]

Main Deck -

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Baleful Strix
4x Shardless Agent
2x True-Name Nemesis

2x Ancestral Vision
3x Thoughtseize
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Thopter Foundry
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Force of Will
2x Dig Through Time
1x Sword of the Meek

1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Forest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
3x Tropical Island
4x Underground

Sideboard -

1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x flusterstorm
3x Chill 6th Edition
2x Leyline of the Void
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Brain Freeze
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Golgari Charm


ill be running this list again ofr a legacy monthy and a 40 duals


You really hate burn don't ya...

[Dirk Mantooth]

It is one of the deck's worst matchups...

[tons of fun]

You really hate burn don't ya...

that is the bored before dig was band so i may change it up now that broken shot is done

[kingtk3]

that is the bored before dig was band so i may change it up now that broken shot is done

How do you manage to play 1x of sword of the meek without a way to tutor it? Is the power of foundry alone (even without the sword) worth the card?

[tons of fun]

How do you manage to play 1x of sword of the meek without a way to tutor it? Is the power of foundry alone (even without the sword) worth the card?

the one of sword has doone work without the foundry and the foundry has done work with out the sword the sword has won me alot lust being on a true name making a 4/3 plus i with this build i can usually get through like 60 -80 % of the deck and its greats for the long grind fest of a game that some decks especial late game and its on stand still u get the thopter sword on line and it shuts then out pretty fast

[Lim-Dul]

i am playing a rather standard version, tuned to beat fair decks (stoneblade, deathblade, lands, Gold-digger, miracle and some delver-builds). My meta is allmost combo-free!! :-) great time to play my pet-deck!!


my deck:
4 goyf
4 DRS
4 Agent
1 Tasigur

2 Jace
2 Liliana

4 Visions
4 BS
1 DTT
3 FoW
2 TS
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Pulse
1 Deluge
1 Sylavn Lybrary

4 Delta
4 Rainforest
2 Catacombs
4 US
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Tar-pit
2 Wasteland

SB
2 Clique
1 Fow
2 Ts
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Cage
1 Jitte
2 Disfigure
1 Gorgary charm
1 Deluge
1 Krosan Grip


Things i liket hear some thought:

1. what form of disruption (fow or discard) is better suited for a fair meta? i used to play a version w/o Fow and 6 discard (3TS/3Hymn). or is a mix like 3 Fow and 2 TS optimal. let me know your thoughts on the disruption package..

2. The distribution of vision/DTT: i am unwilling to cut visions, cause as long as i am playing (rather cluncky) agents i like to maximise thire output. on the other hand a one-off DTT is super random and could be cuted. what split would you run and why in my meta?

3. tasigur is a strong card!! it is not just one more threat, but also a CA engine in the late game. together with DRS/DTT and his own delve it is easy to clear the grave form weak cards to get strong cards back from him. from turn 5 on, he is just a must-answer-card! have onyone made comparable observations? or is not sold on him...

4. the SB is a mess!! anything is wellcom!

i hope you can read my english
Tom from switzerland

[Thorhammer]

i am playing a rather standard version, tuned to beat fair decks (stoneblade, deathblade, lands, Gold-digger, miracle and some delver-builds). My meta is allmost combo-free!! :-) great time to play my pet-deck!!


my deck:
4 goyf
4 DRS
4 Agent
1 Tasigur

2 Jace
2 Liliana

4 Visions
4 BS
1 DTT
3 FoW
2 TS
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Pulse
1 Deluge
1 Sylavn Lybrary

4 Delta
4 Rainforest
2 Catacombs
4 US
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Tar-pit
2 Wasteland

SB
2 Clique
1 Fow
2 Ts
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Cage
1 Jitte
2 Disfigure
1 Gorgary charm
1 Deluge
1 Krosan Grip


Things i liket hear some thought:

1. what form of disruption (fow or discard) is better suited for a fair meta? i used to play a version w/o Fow and 6 discard (3TS/3Hymn). or is a mix like 3 Fow and 2 TS optimal. let me know your thoughts on the disruption package..

2. The distribution of vision/DTT: i am unwilling to cut visions, cause as long as i am playing (rather cluncky) agents i like to maximise thire output. on the other hand a one-off DTT is super random and could be cuted. what split would you run and why in my meta?

3. tasigur is a strong card!! it is not just one more threat, but also a CA engine in the late game. together with DRS/DTT and his own delve it is easy to clear the grave form weak cards to get strong cards back from him. from turn 5 on, he is just a must-answer-card! have onyone made comparable observations? or is not sold on him...

4. the SB is a mess!! anything is wellcom!

i hope you can read my english
Tom from switzerland

Tasigur is indeed strong I have found in my testings. Immune to bolt and abrupt decay is good. Unfortunately Karakas and Jace bounce are hard removal for him so don't just jam 4 of..

[matunos]

that is the bored before dig was band so i may change it up now that broken shot is done

Dig was banned? What is this nonsense?

[DOM]

He must have had Treasure Cruise in mind.

[Dirk Mantooth]

1. what form of disruption (fow or discard) is better suited for a fair meta? i used to play a version w/o Fow and 6 discard (3TS/3Hymn). or is a mix like 3 Fow and 2 TS optimal. let me know your thoughts on the disruption package..

If no one is playing combo, sideboard all of the Forces. Assuming youre right about your meta, you're going to be boarding them out anyway, so you might as well preboard for the matchups you say youll have.

Or you could just play combo yourself and slay everyone that's preparing for all of the fair decks...

[jim111589]

i would assume this question would fall more into this thread then team americas, but has anyone put anymore thought into running the counter top engine? i have been testing it and it seems to work relativly well with a 2 top/3 cb split.

[Dirk Mantooth]

I've seen people discuss it in person before, but I haven't seen anyone try. My thinking is, what's the point? What matchup/matchups does it help with that wouldn't be more efficiently dealt with by other cards?

[jim111589]

well im just testing it right now. i currently play elves and i want to move to a bug variant. my friend used to play bug delver and says this version with counter top looks better and from personal experience the burn match up seems so be a very bad match up for bug decks but with counter/top its much easier. it just seems like a good idea to have counter/top lock with a goyf/drs beat down. if decay is the main fear of running it that is just another decay not at goyf/drs/lili

now again, i do not play this deck (yet) and i want to build the best version i can so i am trying to get all the info/opinions on the deck i can

[LarsLeif]

I would advise against CB/Top in Shardless BUG for a number of reasons:

1. The CB/Top engine is slightly clunky and shardless is already pretty clunky and durdly, and adding more of that will create some issues, ranging from manabase to bad cascades etc.

2. There is no good Miracle spells in the BUG colours, and frankly, Miracles.dec is just a better CB/Top deck.

3. Top and CB are CA engines that likes a deck to be reactive and spend as much mana as possible on the opponents turn. The reverse is true for shardless as we want to tap out for stuff almost every turn. We also cannot play any counterspells other than FoW due to Agent.

4. CB/Top is actually a little weaker now post Treasure Cruise as Abrupt Decay sees more play now.

This is how I think about it anyway. You can definetely play CB/Top in BUG but I don't think that shardless bug is the right home for it.

[jim111589]

well thats why i said i dont know if this was the right thread or if delver would be the better conversion since the version with counter top doesnt run shardless/strix/av but since this is the only bug "control" thread i figured id start here

[LarsLeif]

well thats why i said i dont know if this was the right thread or if delver would be the better conversion since the version with counter top doesnt run shardless/strix/av but since this is the only bug "control" thread i figured id start here

Isn't there a real BUG Control thread out there somewhere? I remember lurking there about a year ago, but maybe it's no longer there? There is a bug landstill thread, but there really should be one for bug control.

[Kyle]

the one of sword has doone work without the foundry and the foundry has done work with out the sword the sword has won me alot lust being on a true name making a 4/3 plus i with this build i can usually get through like 60 -80 % of the deck and its greats for the long grind fest of a game that some decks especial late game and its on stand still u get the thopter sword on line and it shuts then out pretty fast


well thats why i said i dont know if this was the right thread or if delver would be the better conversion since the version with counter top doesnt run shardless/strix/av but since this is the only bug "control" thread i figured id start here

I hate to be a dick, @tons of fun and @jim111589, since you are actively contributing some innovative thoughts and good questions to the thread, but would you please clean up your grammar and capitalization? It makes it easier to read your posts. Thank you.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Grammar is a thing.... :-)

A woman, without her man, is nothing.

A woman: without her, man is nothing.

[TheHeff]

So I'm taking Shardless to a weekly legacy night at my lgs tomorrow for the first time (unknown meta) and since I haven't tested with the MM SB package, I'm taking a 75 very close to Lejay's old list with a few minor changes. I'm trying one DTT in the ponder slot (which might be a Tasigur, but I like the extra blue card) and 4 TS side instead of the one Duress. Wish me luck! Will be back with a short write-up if anyone wants it!

[LarsLeif]

So I'm taking Shardless to a weekly legacy night at my lgs tomorrow for the first time (unknown meta) and since I haven't tested with the MM SB package, I'm taking a 75 very close to Lejay's old list with a few minor changes. I'm trying one DTT in the ponder slot (which might be a Tasigur, but I like the extra blue card) and 4 TS side instead of the one Duress. Wish me luck! Will be back with a short write-up if anyone wants it!

GLHF!

Write-ups are nice, always nice to hear other peoples thoughts about things.

[Lejay]

So I'm taking Shardless to a weekly legacy night at my lgs tomorrow for the first time (unknown meta) and since I haven't tested with the MM SB package, I'm taking a 75 very close to Lejay's old list with a few minor changes. I'm trying one DTT in the ponder slot (which might be a Tasigur, but I like the extra blue card) and 4 TS side instead of the one Duress. Wish me luck! Will be back with a short write-up if anyone wants it!

I wouldn't cut ponder for dtt. Ponder was a land originally.
Duress is meant to be sided in vs tempo thresh (and burn but that's less important) and seize will be worse.
If you really want to test dtt and 4 seize then cut a jace or sylvan library and it won't affect the sb tables.

[tons of fun]

I hate to be a dick, @tons of fun and @jim111589, since you are actively contributing some innovative thoughts and good questions to the thread, but would you please clean up your grammar and capitalization? It makes it easier to read your posts. Thank you.

i is are not the best typer but i is will try. lol no but serious i am not the best typist but ill try to clean it up

[Kyle]

i is are not the best typer but i is will try. lol no but serious i am not the best typist but ill try to clean it up

Sweet, thanks.

[TheHeff]

I wouldn't cut ponder for dtt. Ponder was a land originally.
Duress is meant to be sided in vs tempo thresh (and burn but that's less important) and seize will be worse.
If you really want to test dtt and 4 seize then cut a jace. Or sylvam library and it won't affect the sb tables.

Ah that makes sense about the duress, I'll have to give that a try. How many of those effects do you bring in against SFM decks? Seems like it would be nice to snipe equipment as a 2-of, or something. I'm still undecided about the DTT, I need more testing. I like that spot for more of a late game bomb, I considered Tasigar or even a Tombstalker for that spot. When do you bring that Swords in? Creature match ups and reanimator?

Legacy went well Wed night, ended up going 1-1 drop for personal stuff but the deck felt super solid. First round was against D&T, lost G1 by flooding out and G3 to waste and port even after fetching basics. G2 I won mostly thanks to 3 running wastelands and a deluge that cleared a Mom, Thalia, and Spirit of the Lab.

Round 2 was against jund, and man were these fun games. Won both G1/G2 but they were both really long and grindy. In the end, they can't compete with a resolved visions or two. P-fire was the scariest card since it picks off 2/3 of your creatures and can kill goyfs in a goyf war, as well as sniping pwalkers. Having 4 wastes though helps keep their Groves down, so it's not totally miserable.

Overall I love the configuration of the MD, it hoses fair decks and isn't completely horrible against combo. I played some games for fun in between rounds against TES, a well timed force and waste pressure made the MU not quite so bad. I showed him my SB and he was scared. It's def the list I'll be using and tuning from now on, thanks for all the hard work with it Lejay!

[LarsLeif]

Ah that makes sense about the duress, I'll have to give that a try. How many of those effects do you bring in against SFM decks? Seems like it would be nice to snipe equipment as a 2-of, or something. I'm still undecided about the DTT, I need more testing. I like that spot for more of a late game bomb, I considered Tasigar or even a Tombstalker for that spot. When do you bring that Swords in? Creature match ups and reanimator?


Nice to hear that you like the deck, it's a shame that so few has picked up this version as Lejay has tested it so extensively. I'm sure that Lejay has things to add here but you usually bring in all the seizes (usually not the duress) vs Esper Stoneblade/Deathblade, and you might even bring in 1-2 against UWR Delver on the play I guess, though I usually don't.

You're right about StP, I don't usually side it against slower blade decks, but against most other creature matchups. It's very potent against RUG Delver for example because you get an extra land (the Savannah) and also a super-charged disfigure. As you can cast StP with either Deathrite or cascade as well you usually don't even have to fetch the Savannah for it.

I also bring it in against reanimator. Once I had a reanimator opponent go t1 Tidespout Tyrant, and at his EoT i fetched and plowed it. The look on his face. :)

This version played a Tombstalker in the deck initially but it was switched to a Maelstrom Pulse to free up an SB-slot and give us a MD answer to Batterskull etc.

[DOM]

This might have been discussed before but against what matchups in particular do you, who pack the white package in sideboard, side the white cards in and what cards you then name with Meddling Mage? Also, maybe there are more white cards that are worth sideboarding?

[LarsLeif]

This might have been discussed before but against what matchups in particular do you, who pack the white package in sideboard, side the white cards in and what cards you then name with Meddling Mage? Also, maybe there are more white cards that are worth sideboarding?

If you by "the white package" refer to Meddling Mage the answer is in short that you bring those in against combo. You can also bring them in against weird things like Lands (naming Punishing Fire/Loam for example).

In regards to what to name the answer is: It depends. Meddling Mage is an interesting skill intensive card that really rewards a deep knowledge of how Legacy combo decks operate. But one strength of bringing in 4 discard and 4 MM is that you can often go t1 discard and see their hand, t2 MM and name something that you left there. But it all depends on the situation, matchup, version of the deck you face etc. A very loose guideline (ALWAYS ADAPT) I guess would be:

Vs Sneak & Show you name Show and Tell or Sneak Attack.

Vs ANT you name either Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish (if they play it, pay attention), Lion's Eye Diamond or Ad Nauseam.

Against TES it's about the same but going blind BW might be better to name, it all depends.

Against Elves you usually name Natural Order or Glimpse of Nature, but secondary targets like GSZ or Elvish Visionary are also possible.

Against OmniTell you name Show and tell or Enter the Infinite if they play it.

But these guidelines are not fixed at all, you have to adapt constantly to how the game shapes out, to what your opponent has in his/her hand etc etc etc. Etc.


Regarding more white cards I play a Containment Priest in the Grafdigger's Cage slot nowadays. Other than that, the 4 MM and the 1 StP I'm not sure if any other white card is necessary. Is there something you have in mind?

[Kirika]

Ran the following at my local weekly legacy event because I really wanted to try out Tasigur in it. Based on Lejay's list but I went down to 2 Liliana and added Tasigur. Also added 2 Containment Priests to the board (I don't like Leylines because hate mulliganing for them) which were good versus Elves and these is a decent amount of Show and Tell and Reanimator in my meta.

Went 3-0-1 and split top 4. Beat Stasis 2-0 (Deluge was key in killing his Quiron and Scrybe Sprites) Death and Taxes 2-0 (deluge was pretty big here as was Tasigur) Elves 2-0 and IDed with Jund. Split top 4. Managed to dodge Storm despite we have several Storm players.

Tasigur is pretty awesome although I only used his ability once. A 4/5 for 1 or 2 mana on turn 3 is pretty nice.

Not sure if I want Dig Through Time because Rest in Peace already nerfs your Tarmogoyfs and Tasigur. Also is the issue of what to cut for it. I like Ponder because it helps dig.

Black (5)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Tasigur the Golden Fang
2 Toxic Deluge

Blue (15+4 multi)
4 Ancestral Visions.
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Ponder

Multi Color (13)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Shardless Agent

Green (5)
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf

Land (22)
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Meddling Mage
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Null Rod
1 Savannah
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

@DOM
White Package really is for Combo. Containment Priest is good versus Dredge, Elves, Reanimator, Sneak and Show.

What you name with Meddling Mage really depends on the combo you are playing against what the board position is and if you saw their hand with Duress/Thoughtseize and if they played some number of X card you will be less likely to name it.

ANT you name infernal tutor.
Elves depends, if you have a Containment priest or Grafdigger's Cage you name Abrupt Decay. Otherwise Natural Order if they have enough elves for a lethal Craterhoof. Second one usually names Abrupt Decay. They tend to board out some number of Glimpse.
High Tide you name Cunning Wish since they usually have to wish for their brainfreeze and wish for their bounce. Second one names high tide.
Omni Tell - Show and Tell since Dream Halls is more expensive and not all are running it.
Sneak and Show - Show and Tell blind. If you have Containment Priest out you name Pyroclasm.
TES you name Burning Wish since they can wish for outs and their tendrils is in the board. Second one names Infernal Tutor.

[LarsLeif]

Nice to see that the deck performs.

Having 2 Containment Priest and the Cage seems a bit excessive, I would replace the cage before I replace the Leyline with priest.

Regarding the Leyline, and this has been stated before: you don't mulligan for it. If you have it in your starting hand it's great but what that card is in the SB for is not stuff like reanimator but actually for decks like Lands and other aggressive Loam/Punishing Fire decks. I feel that too many people forget that the cost of Leyline isn't GGBBWWRRUU but just 2BB, which is easy to hardcast if drawn later in a game. You can watch Lejays final from the last Bazaar of Moxen if they are still available where he faces Aggro Loam. The card really shines although he does not have it in his opener.

That being said, if there isn't any Punishing Fire/Loam strategies in you meta it's totally fine to replace the card, but it is important to remember what the Leyline is there to do when you think about replacing it.

[starfox444]

Cheers for the list Lejay, played it a bit locally and felt super good.

[Kirika]

@LarsLeif
Containment Priest is good against Aether Vial, Sneak and Show and Elves in addition to graveyard strategies. You do have to mulligan for graveyard hate against Dredge and sometimes Reanimator where you need it early. Leyline is not very good in those situations unless in your opening hand. 2BB is too slow vs Dredge or Reanimator.

May consider Leyline for a Star City larger event but in my local meta there is Burn and combo which hates out lands and loam.

[LarsLeif]

@LarsLeif
Containment Priest is good against Aether Vial, Sneak and Show and Elves in addition to graveyard strategies. You do have to mulligan for graveyard hate against Dredge and sometimes Reanimator where you need it early. Leyline is not very good in those situations unless in your opening hand. 2BB is too slow vs Dredge or Reanimator.

May consider Leyline for a Star City larger event but in my local meta there is Burn and combo which hates out lands and loam.

I would certainly recommend Leyline in an open metagame. My point was mostly concerning that you can probably cut Cage for the Leyline with 2 Containment Pries in the SB as Dredge and Reanimator are pretty good matchups regardless with 4 MM, 4 FoW, 4DRS and 4 Discard amongst other cards.

On another note how do you usually board against Vial decks? I would not board Priest against any vial decks, it just does too little to warrant a weak 2/2 body, especially since Vial decks tend to run Wasteland.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I have been testing this deck, and I have no clue how it beats Burn. The deck feels pretty good against most things except Burn and Lands though.

[janluis1]

I have been testing this deck, and I have no clue how it beats Burn. The deck feels pretty good against most things except Burn and Lands though.

Simple. It looses unless you make room for at least 4 slots in the sb for chills which is preatty much devastating against them.

[Jsang]

I have been testing this deck, and I have no clue how it beats Burn. The deck feels pretty good against most things except Burn and Lands though.

I think this matchup the most important card is tarmogoyf and g1 is all about luck.

I sb in this way, lejay s list

+
savannah 1
meddling mage 4
duress 1
swords to plowshares 1

-
liliana of the viel 3
toxic deluge 2
maestrom pulse 1
wasteland 1

[LarsLeif]

Yeah, the Burn matchup is very rough, it is actually the worst matchup for this deck. Meddling Mage is fine but not amazing, goyf is good, and DRS is ok.

But overall this version of the deck is not adapted to beating that deck, so try dodging it! :P

[Patrunkenphat7]

I think this matchup the most important card is tarmogoyf and g1 is all about luck.

I sb in this way, lejay s list

+
savannah 1
meddling mage 4
duress 1
swords to plowshares 1

-
liliana of the viel 3
toxic deluge 2
maestrom pulse 1
wasteland 1

What do you guys name with Meddling Mage against Burn? Price of Progress?

[say no to scurvy]

Ideally after they've laid down 2 rift bolts and they have no answer...I've lived the dream.

[janluis1]

What do you guys name with Meddling Mage against Burn? Price of Progress?

If burn is very popular in your meta I would rather switch to a stoneforge deck

[LarsLeif]

What do you guys name with Meddling Mage against Burn? Price of Progress?

As usual it depends. I usually keep my wastelands in so that you can waste yourself in response to pop. Usually, name the cards that you can't beat. If you've played multiple nonbasics, then name PoP. Other targets are Fireblast, Rift Bolt on suspend etc, it really depends. But yes, Pop is fine to name.

Caution: if you have a MM out naming PoP then for gods sake don't play all your nonbasic lands. Then they will just bolt the mage and kill you.

[Jsang]

What do you guys name with Meddling Mage against Burn? Price of Progress?

Apart from those obvious; i have learnt searing blaze is not a bad call.

[DOM]

Also, you might as well name whatever you saw in your opponent's hand with the discard spell you cast earlier.

So, I was browsing through a crap pile of booster material and Monastery Siege caught my attention. In Dragon mode it is a Chill with a slightly bigger mana cost and a broader usage as it affects spells of all colours. In Khans mode Siege cantrips during your draw step. It would be fun to have it in Khans mode alongside Sylvan Library. I'm just not quite sure whether you draw this additional card prior or after your normal draw, as it would be rather weak while hellbent. Anyway, it is solely a crappy sideboard material, definitely no competitor for a MB Sylavn Library, but it seemed interesting.

[kingtk3]

Also, you might as well name whatever you saw in your opponent's hand with the discard spell you cast earlier.

So, I was browsing through a crap pile of booster material and Monastery Siege caught my attention. In Dragon mode it is a Chill with a slightly bigger mana cost and a broader usage as it affects spells of all colours. In Khans mode Siege cantrips during your draw step. It would be fun to have it in Khans mode alongside Sylvan Library. I'm just not quite sure whether you draw this additional card prior or after your normal draw, as it would be rather weak while hellbent. Anyway, it is solely a crappy sideboard material, definitely no competitor for a MB Sylavn Library, but it seemed interesting.

The interaction between library and siege is nice though, because if you are going to draw cards due to triggered abilities during your draw step, your regular draw resolves first, but you can choose the order of all the triggered abilities. So if you resolve siege before library you can chose the cards to put back among 4-5 cards (depending on what you discard to siege) instead of the usual 3:

first is your regular draw
then the 2 cards from monastery siege
then the 2 cards from sylvan library


Not bad at all if you ask me

[FoolofaTook]

The interaction between library and siege is nice though, because if you are going to draw cards due to triggered abilities during your draw step, your regular draw resolves first, but you can choose the order of all the triggered abilities. So if you resolve siege before library you can chose the cards to put back among 4-5 cards (depending on what you discard to siege) instead of the usual 3:

first is your regular draw
then the 2 cards from monastery siege
then the 2 cards from sylvan library


Not bad at all if you ask me

You only draw 1 additional card with Monastery Siege.

[LarsLeif]

Can we please not discuss questionable sideboard cards against burn and motivate why they should be there with synergies between that and a 1-off card in our maindeck that we also usually side out in the Burn-MU? If you wish to discuss it at least read the oracle text on library. :P

[LarsLeif]

If you want good cards against burn I recommend Warmth, CoP: Red, Chill or Sphere of Law, but usually that deck isn't worth spending SB-slots on as you will not encounter it that often past round 3 I tournaments.

[kingtk3]

You only draw 1 additional card with Monastery Siege.

That's true, I'm sorry: I fumbled during my ruminations and I "counted" the normal draw two times. That means that with sylvan library we can choose among a max of 4 cards instead of 3, which is admittedly less exciting: my bad.

[kingtk3]

If you want good cards against burn I recommend Warmth, CoP: Red, Chill or Sphere of Law, but usually that deck isn't worth spending SB-slots on as you will not encounter it that often past round 3 I tournaments.

I think that the best sideboard card against burn is Warmth because it's cheap and basically invalidates most of their spell; however it's narrow as hell.
Chill seems to have more applications since you may think to board it against decks playing red, but there aren't really many decks that want to chain red spells aside burn, belcher and big red, and they aren't much played (burn apart).

I think that the best way that this deck has to beat burn is to disrupt its game while presenting a clock, so cards like counters (including blue elemental blast), duress, medling mage and goyfs are your friends: you'll have to play tight but you'll have a shot.

I don't think this deck can afford to devote 3-4 sideboard slots in warmth/chill unless your meta is filled with burn.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Well I won a 36-man IQ yesterday with this deck splashing white for Meddling Mage in the SB, yay! Didn't play against Burn...

[sdematt]

Post list plox.

-Matt

[LarsLeif]

Well I won a 36-man IQ yesterday with this deck splashing white for Meddling Mage in the SB, yay! Didn't play against Burn...

Great stuff!

[Kirika]

@LarsLeif
Versus Death and Taxes I board
-4 Force of Will,
+1 Containment Priest, +1 Night of Soul's Betrayal, +1 Null Rod, +1 Savannah, +1 Swords to Plowshares,

You can cast Priest with Deathrite Shaman or off a cascade. It is important to nerf vial so they actually have to cast threats instead of porting you off colors or getting too far ahead on board although Toxic Deluge helps with that.

@Patrunkenphat7
Congrats on winning the IQ. What does your list look like?

Your burn match up plan to hopefully dogdge burn but if you have to play agaisnt burn hope you draw lots of tarmogoyfs and fetch your forest and swamp, try to only have 1 or two duals and have a wasteland at the ready to kill your dual if they price. Meddling Mage on Searing Blaze if your not forced to play too many non basics otherwise Price of Progress. That forces them to spend good burn that could have went at your face to kill Mage and not get max value out of Blaze. Second Mage on Price or Vortex depending if you have Decay for it.

I board versus burn with Lejay's list -1 Liliana +1 Tasigur
+2 Duress, +4 Meddling Mage +1 Savannah, +1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Ancestral Visions, -2 Jace the Mindsculptor, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -2 Toxic Deluge, -1 Wasteland

Liliana actually isn't that bad vs burn she does get rid of a creature which frees up your Decays for their Vortex/Ensnaring Bridge. Pitching extra lands you don't want to put out for fear of price to make them discard a burn spell also isn't too shabby.

@Kingtk3
Kor Firewalker is the MVP versus burn but Shardless can't run it because its double white. Kor Firewalker is also awesome against RU Delver. Treasure Burn actually ran sideboard Threads of Disloyalty to deal with Kor FIrewalker.

[James_Nguyen]

Has anybody played extensively with Tasigur, the Golden Fang? Is it good, bad, neither? Should i add it to the deck?

[Kirika]

I have added Tasigur in place of the 3rd Liliana from Lejay's build.

Tasigur is Tamogoyf #5 most of the time. Activating the 4 mana ability to draw a nonland card is amazing if you have the chance to do so but does not come up all that often.

[LarsLeif]

@LarsLeif
Versus Death and Taxes I board
-4 Force of Will,
+1 Containment Priest, +1 Night of Soul's Betrayal, +1 Null Rod, +1 Savannah, +1 Swords to Plowshares,

You can cast Priest with Deathrite Shaman or off a cascade. It is important to nerf vial so they actually have to cast threats instead of porting you off colors or getting too far ahead on board although Toxic Deluge helps with that.


Your boarding is quite ok but I think there is things that can be improved even so. First off, keeping Jace in against D&T is bad for several reasons:

1. Resolving a 4 mana noncreature spell against a deck with waste, port and Thalia is not an easy task and it will often just clunk up your draws, especially since we board out force.

2. Jace, as good as he is, usually does not accomplish a whole lot against D&T since they usually have a large board presence and are able to flash stuff in and kill him.

3. Their deck is well equipped to deal with Planeswalkers as they have access to revoker, flash creatures, SoFaI and mom, amongst the mana denial.


These points together means it is usually better to just board him out as he is definitely much less bang for your buck compared to for example NoSB.

I would also strongly advise against boarding in C-Priest because there is so much that has to go right for it to be good:

1. You need to draw it, and draw it in the early game for it to have any meaningful impact and with only 1 of them that is not going to happen often enough.

2. They need to have vial. Even if you draw it early it won't do anything 50% of the time as they might not have any vials in their hand.

3. It must live. Being a 2/2 with no way of protecting itself means that there is a small chance that it actually lives to do what it is supposed to do.

All this together means that it most of the time will be a very narrow, low upside card that you most of the time will not see, or you draw it late-game and wish you hadn't seen it.

You can sort of see it as a revoker with flash and a worse mana cost that can only name vial.

But ok, so with Jace going out alongside fow and priest not coming in, what do I suggest? Thoughtseize. Against D&T it's especially good as it lets you proactively fight vial (either seize it t1 on the play or just discard the creatures they want to play with it), let's you answer stoneforge mystic (discard the equipment) and it also conveniently answers their trump card Cataclysm some of the time.

So my board plan would be:

-4 Force -2 Jace
+2 Seize
+1 Rod
+1 NoSB
+1 Savannah
+1 Plow/3rd Seize

[DOM]

Here's my current 60 and both versions of sideboards:

Mainboard:

Creatures - 14
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent

Instants - 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time

Sorceries - 7
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Hymn To Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ancestral Vision

Planeswalkers - 4
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Enchantments - 1
1 Sylvan Library

Lands - 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp

Sideboard No.1 BUG Colours

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Baleful Strix
1 Dismember
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Force of Will

(Thinking about replacing Dismember and Null Rod with a couple of Pithing Needles)

Sideboard No.2 With white

1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Baleful Strix
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Force of Will
2 Containment Priest
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scrubland

Against Death and Taxes with the first sideboard I would do this:

-3 Force of Will
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Hymn to Tourach

+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Baleful Strix
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Dismember or Vendilion Clique

And with the second:

-3 Force of Will
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Hymn to Tourach

+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Baleful Strix
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Scrubland (just to have more lands)

After reading your suggestions I might consider cutting Jace instead of TS, but with all the sweepers I board in the changes for Jace to stick on the board increase significantly and it is quite good to have a Brainstorm each turn (to get more hate, beaters, lands, etc.). Also, I might as well add a Containment Priest or two since I board a Scrubland anyway, but it might not work with two Toxic Deluges. My current tournament record versus D&T is 2 victories and one 1-2 loss which happened when I was unable to find a third land even with Sylvan Library on board for quite a few turns. Usually I lose the first game and then win two others.

As always, any advises regarding my 75 (or 90) are appreciated.

[LarsLeif]

I like the white sideboard. I would as I've stated before like to see a 4-1 split (or 4-2) between MM and C-Priest as MM are live in all combo-MU's and fantastic in multiples. C-priest is a bit worse in multiples and useless against both storm and OmniTell.

"But with all the sweepers I board in the changes for Jace to stick on the board increase significantly and it is quite good to have a Brainstorm each turn (to get more hate, beaters, lands, etc.)"

Thanks for letting us know what Brainstorming each turn leads to, I literally had no idea that's what happens when you get to do that! =)

Haha, no but jokes aside with that many sweepers you can probably keep Jace in yes, but it might not be necessary either as the game us usually over if you resolve a deluge anyways, they have few ways of regaining the CA. I would probably try to board it out to lower the curve but it's more of a minor thing.

I can definitely recommend cutting discard (at least hymns) and strixes from the main deck for another deluge. That way you can run a basic forest and cast all your 2-cmc spells with Swamp & Forest which is nice! :)

[Islandswamp]

Here's my current 60 and both versions of sideboards:

Mainboard:

Creatures - 14
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent

Instants - 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time

Sorceries - 7
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Hymn To Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ancestral Vision

Planeswalkers - 4
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Enchantments - 1
1 Sylvan Library

Lands - 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp

Sideboard No.1 BUG Colours

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Baleful Strix
1 Dismember
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Force of Will

(Thinking about replacing Dismember and Null Rod with a couple of Pithing Needles)

Sideboard No.2 With white

1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Baleful Strix
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Force of Will
2 Containment Priest
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scrubland

Against Death and Taxes with the first sideboard I would do this:

-3 Force of Will
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Hymn to Tourach

+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Baleful Strix
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Dismember or Vendilion Clique

And with the second:

-3 Force of Will
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Hymn to Tourach

+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Baleful Strix
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Scrubland (just to have more lands)

After reading your suggestions I might consider cutting Jace instead of TS, but with all the sweepers I board in the changes for Jace to stick on the board increase significantly and it is quite good to have a Brainstorm each turn (to get more hate, beaters, lands, etc.). Also, I might as well add a Containment Priest or two since I board a Scrubland anyway, but it might not work with two Toxic Deluges. My current tournament record versus D&T is 2 victories and one 1-2 loss which happened when I was unable to find a third land even with Sylvan Library on board for quite a few turns. Usually I lose the first game and then win two others.

As always, any advises regarding my 75 (or 90) are appreciated.

That's pretty close to my list.

[Islandswamp]

I've nearly finished my copy of Shardless Bug on MTGO. I write a weekly article on puremtgo.com, and I've been writing about Legacy for a few weeks, as that is all I play anymore. I submitted my article last night, and it's about my Shardless Bug deck. Here's the list I've been playing with:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dig Through Time
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Baleful Strix

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Golgari Charm
1 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Baleful Strix
1 Massacre

There are a few changes that I'd like to make, I'm going to swap the fetches around for two more Verdant Catacombs as soon as I get some. Having two Jace and two Lilianas has been awesome. I managed to beat a Griselbrand played by a show and tell, and in game two, I beat a Griselbrand that was cheated in with Sneak Attack. Both times, Liliana took it out.

I run into a lot of blood moon decks and combo decks, so I kept the Force of Will count at four.

[firebadmattgood]

How did lilliana beat a sneaked Gris?

[Krimson Viper]

I'm thinking about building this deck, but I would need to take apart my other deck to do so. How many Liliis and Bobs should I keep?

[DOM]

1-3 Lilianas and 0 Bobs.

[Kirika]

@LarsLeif
I do take out 1 Jace forgot to type that boarding out 5 and putting in 5. 4 Force is only 4.

Containment priest is a 2/2 body and serves as an ambush viper for their Revoker or Spirit of the Labrynth if they do not have a Mother of Runes out. Spirit of the Labrynth is pretty annoying because it turns off your Brainstorms and Ancestral Visions.

I like 2 containment priest in the board because my local environment has Elves, Dredge, Reanimator and Sneak Attack.

Thoughtseize is good if they have a card for you to take. Death and Taxes if they have a vial can empty their hand pretty quickly. Although this is playing into Toxic Deluge you have to draw the Toxic Deluge which also costs life so not so sure about Thoughtseize. Games against Death and Taxes are also a grind where the D+T player is top decking before too long and Thoughtseize really doesn't do much because they vial in their creature or Swords something in response to it if they even have a hand.

I find games I lose to Death and Taxes usually involve vial where they can develop their board while attacking your mana and you don't get that Toxic Deluge or Equipment I can't deal with.

@Dom
I don't like Strix because it is a nombo with Toxic Deluge. Main deck discard I am not a fan of because it is bad against the grindy decks. 4 Force of Will is great because you have so much card advantage and you can pitch Ancestral Visions you drew. Should be running 4 Ancestral Visions as well.

@Islandswamp
Congratulations on finishing Shardless on MTGO. I will be waiting for Tempest Remastered to pick up Wastelands for less money and then maybe looking at the Tarmogoyfs.

How has Dig Through time been for you? Not sure what to cut for it so have not tried it.

You have enough card advantage through Ancestral Visions, Cascade and Jace that you can keep the Force of Will count at 4. Your Ancestral Visions count should also be at 4 to maximize getting one turn 1 or cascading into it. Drawing 3 is always good. If you draw one you can pitch it to Force of Will or Brainstorm it back.

@Krimson Viper
2 Liliana is a good number, maybe 3 but I cut the 3rd one for Tasigur and really like Tasigur.

[SilkyPimP]

I kind of like the 3 discard main now that TC is not around. I would rather have hymn main and seize in the board. Also I love strix but can see cutting to 1 main 1 board.

Whats everyone feeling on creeping tarpit? I see a lot of list running 1 of or none. Also the Dig has been great, I will leave it in as a singleton. Ill test with The golden fang tonight.

[DOM]

Hooray, thread is live again!


I like the white sideboard. I would as I've stated before like to see a 4-1 split (or 4-2) between MM and C-Priest as MM are live in all combo-MU's and fantastic in multiples. C-priest is a bit worse in multiples and useless against both storm and OmniTell.

I have tried the white sideboard but only found myself boarding in a Scrubland against Death and Taxes. The combo matchups in my meta feature Elves, Dredge, Reanimator, Tin Fins, Rw Imperial Painter, Dark Depths something and that is more or less it, thus Meddling Mages do not seem that good. Containment Priest is okay, but she does nothing against Lands where I certainly need normal gy hate and I prefer casting a Surgical or Grafdigger's Cage against Tin Fins and Reanimator because Reanimator has multiple ways to reanimate and Tin Fins can just storm you to death, whereas Dredge is easy with either sideboard. MM and CP are decent versus elves but I tend to board a 2nd Deluge and it is not fun to blow up my mages... Also, Blood Moon is a thing in my metagame. In a nutshell, whichever split I would choose, white splash seems unnecessary in my metagame.


I can definitely recommend cutting discard (at least hymns) and strixes from the main deck for another deluge. That way you can run a basic forest and cast all your 2-cmc spells with Swamp & Forest which is nice! :)

As stated below, Strix has been great for me, though Hymn might get cut after a while. I am not so sure if I want a Forest, though.


@Dom
I don't like Strix because it is a nombo with Toxic Deluge. Main deck discard I am not a fan of because it is bad against the grindy decks. 4 Force of Will is great because you have so much card advantage and you can pitch Ancestral Visions you drew. Should be running 4 Ancestral Visions as well.

Losing Strix to Deluge after cantriping and having a wall/beater is not really that bad, in my opinion. In fact, I have boarded the third one in 75% of my games, usually accompanied with a 2nd Deluge. Strix can also be fed to FoW, which is nice.

I have enjoyed G1 discard as it improves my chances to win pre-board and also provides information of what my opponent has in hand and what is s/he playing. Although I have always sided it out, Hymn has won me some games. Hymn always left my MB because of Obstinate Baloth/Loxodon Smiter/Wilt-Leaf Liege that often appear in my playground, as well as grave-based strategies and Blood Moon seeing enough play.

FoW currently has a 55% rate in favour of being sided in (the fourth one) and 45% of being sided out completely, so far I have been pleased with 3/1 split.

I have tried running the fourth AV but was not entirely pleased with that, thus added a Sylvan Library instead, which is awesome as it helps to set Cascades or just filters my top decks. I also have a DTT for more digging.


How has Dig Through time been for you? Not sure what to cut for it so have not tried it.

Dig Through Time has helped me find answers in some situations by providing a FoW with fodder, AD, creatures, Jace, etc. Being a blue instant also makes it worth trying out.


I kind of like the 3 discard main now that TC is not around. I would rather have hymn main and seize in the board. Also I love strix but can see cutting to 1 main 1 board.

I have been more pleased with TS. Despite Hymn has been good a few times, I am thinking about cutting it entirely. Also, I have had two Hymns in side but replaced with Duresses as I have never sided them in, whereas Duress has already proven itself after packing it in two tournaments. It costs B, gets rid of Blood Moon, Reanimator thingies, etc.


Whats everyone feeling on creeping tarpit? I see a lot of list running 1 of or none. Also the Dig has been great, I will leave it in as a singleton. Ill test with The golden fang tonight.

It has been great as a 2-off for me so far and I am unwilling to go down to one.

[LarsLeif]

@LarsLeif
I do take out 1 Jace forgot to type that boarding out 5 and putting in 5. 4 Force is only 4.

Containment priest is a 2/2 body and serves as an ambush viper for their Revoker or Spirit of the Labrynth if they do not have a Mother of Runes out. Spirit of the Labrynth is pretty annoying because it turns off your Brainstorms and Ancestral Visions.

I like 2 containment priest in the board because my local environment has Elves, Dredge, Reanimator and Sneak Attack.

Thoughtseize is good if they have a card for you to take. Death and Taxes if they have a vial can empty their hand pretty quickly. Although this is playing into Toxic Deluge you have to draw the Toxic Deluge which also costs life so not so sure about Thoughtseize. Games against Death and Taxes are also a grind where the D+T player is top decking before too long and Thoughtseize really doesn't do much because they vial in their creature or Swords something in response to it if they even have a hand.

I find games I lose to Death and Taxes usually involve vial where they can develop their board while attacking your mana and you don't get that Toxic Deluge or Equipment I can't deal with.

I would not board in a card because it's occasionally an Ambush Viper against a 1-2-off in their deck if they don't have Mom (of which they run 4). It is just diluting your decks game-plan.

Thoughtseize usually always have targets, especially against a stoneforge-deck. Sure, it's dead beyond turn seven or so but you run several sweepers, 4 visions and 4 brainstorm so you should just be able to either get rid of it or just win if the game goes that long. Before they run out of cards it's super good however. It lets you interact with their SfM, Vials and also deal with things such as Cataclysm and hard-to-deal with permanents like Mirran Crusader before they come down which is pretty huge. I definitely recommend it. And I've tested the matchup a lot.

[LarsLeif]

There's too many things to start quoting everything but I have some general comments:

1. First of, nice to see the thread live again, we had a dark time during TC, but now we are back, lets aim to take the deck back to DTB! :)

2. Strix is a super nice card, but has some drawbacks: You have to fetch more nonbasics to cast it, it's worse with deluge and nowadays most tempo-decks are playing more removal for it such as Patriot with their 7 removal, rug with forked bolts or TA with disfigures. I feel it's worse in the meta than it was a couple of years ago. Strix is also quite slow I feel.

3. Creeping Tar Pit is good in our good matchups such as slow blade decks and miracles, but bad against faster decks or decks with wasteland. Both me and Lejay felt is was too slow and clunky because it enters the battlefield tapped.

4. I agree with Kirika here. 4 Visions is almost always the correct number, it's why we play Shardless Agent after all. It's a real cost for us not being able to play any reactive spells with CMC 2 or less so we better make up for that drawback by maximizing our cascades.

5. Again like Kirika says, 4 force is also the correct number.

6. Discard in the main deck is also something that is up for debate. I don't think they are necessary main as this is a deck meant to beat mainly other fair decks, and you can play better cards in those discard spells in the main deck and dedicate the board to combo instead and have access to the discard in the fair matchups they are relevant in. But if you expect a lot of blade and a lot of combo/control but not so many delver decks I guess some MD discard is ok.

But with all this said, the deck is pretty nice however you construct it as long as you can motivate your inclusions.

[Islandswamp]

@LarsLeif
I do take out 1 Jace forgot to type that boarding out 5 and putting in 5. 4 Force is only 4.

Containment priest is a 2/2 body and serves as an ambush viper for their Revoker or Spirit of the Labrynth if they do not have a Mother of Runes out. Spirit of the Labrynth is pretty annoying because it turns off your Brainstorms and Ancestral Visions.

I like 2 containment priest in the board because my local environment has Elves, Dredge, Reanimator and Sneak Attack.

Thoughtseize is good if they have a card for you to take. Death and Taxes if they have a vial can empty their hand pretty quickly. Although this is playing into Toxic Deluge you have to draw the Toxic Deluge which also costs life so not so sure about Thoughtseize. Games against Death and Taxes are also a grind where the D+T player is top decking before too long and Thoughtseize really doesn't do much because they vial in their creature or Swords something in response to it if they even have a hand.

I find games I lose to Death and Taxes usually involve vial where they can develop their board while attacking your mana and you don't get that Toxic Deluge or Equipment I can't deal with.

@Dom
I don't like Strix because it is a nombo with Toxic Deluge. Main deck discard I am not a fan of because it is bad against the grindy decks. 4 Force of Will is great because you have so much card advantage and you can pitch Ancestral Visions you drew. Should be running 4 Ancestral Visions as well.

@Islandswamp
Congratulations on finishing Shardless on MTGO. I will be waiting for Tempest Remastered to pick up Wastelands for less money and then maybe looking at the Tarmogoyfs.

How has Dig Through time been for you? Not sure what to cut for it so have not tried it.

You have enough card advantage through Ancestral Visions, Cascade and Jace that you can keep the Force of Will count at 4. Your Ancestral Visions count should also be at 4 to maximize getting one turn 1 or cascading into it. Drawing 3 is always good. If you draw one you can pitch it to Force of Will or Brainstorm it back.

@Krimson Viper
2 Liliana is a good number, maybe 3 but I cut the 3rd one for Tasigur and really like Tasigur.

Dig Through Time is a card I end up sideboarding out a lot. I played four ancestral vision for quite a while, but most lists only run three nowadays, so I tried cutting it for more room for other cards.

I picked up a tasigur today, and I'm giving him another shot. I had one once, but I never had it when I would have wanted it, and like DTT, I always wanted to take it out games 2/3.

I don't know what everyone's opinion is on basics in the deck, but I'm going with a swamp and forest to hopefully be able to abrupt decay a blood moon some day.

I played a few games just now, went 2-0 against Miracles, lost 0-2 to bug delver (I think it was a couple of weak hands, I usually do well in that match up), then won against T.E.S. 2-1. I've done a lot better against combo that I expected lately.
I play Team America as well, both decks are fun for me. I feel like Sultai is the best wedge in Legacy.

[Islandswamp]

There's too many things to start quoting everything but I have some general comments:

1. First of, nice to see the thread live again, we had a dark time during TC, but now we are back, lets aim to take the deck back to DTB! :)

2. Strix is a super nice card, but has some drawbacks: You have to fetch more nonbasics to cast it, it's worse with deluge and nowadays most tempo-decks are playing more removal for it such as Patriot with their 7 removal, rug with forked bolts or TA with disfigures. I feel it's worse in the meta than it was a couple of years ago. Strix is also quite slow I feel.

3. Creeping Tar Pit is good in our good matchups such as slow blade decks and miracles, but bad against faster decks or decks with wasteland. Both me and Lejay felt is was too slow and clunky because it enters the battlefield tapped.

4. I agree with Kirika here. 4 Visions is almost always the correct number, it's why we play Shardless Agent after all. It's a real cost for us not being able to play any reactive spells with CMC 2 or less so we better make up for that drawback by maximizing our cascades.

5. Again like Kirika says, 4 force is also the correct number.

6. Discard in the main deck is also something that is up for debate. I don't think they are necessary main as this is a deck meant to beat mainly other fair decks, and you can play better cards in those discard spells in the main deck and dedicate the board to combo instead and have access to the discard in the fair matchups they are relevant in. But if you expect a lot of blade and a lot of combo/control but not so many delver decks I guess some MD discard is ok.

But with all this said, the deck is pretty nice however you construct it as long as you can motivate your inclusions.

I just started playing legacy like a month ago, although I've read about it a lot in the past, and I played magic since before it was even called Legacy (t 1.5)

I write articles for puremtgo.com, I just did one on Shardless BUG. I mentioned in my article that it seemed like treasure cruise being so easy to cast seemed to overshadow this deck and ancestral vision. If anyone wants to read it, and critique it, please feel free. http://puremtgo.com/articles/legacy-lessons-cascades-value

Also, I'm always looking for more players to test with on MTGO, Islandswamp is my user name.

[James_Nguyen]

I would not play 4 visions because they are dead in the mid/late game so adding a dig helps with that problem. And 4 forces is too many imo because the deck is already short on blue cards

[LarsLeif]

I would not play 4 visions because they are dead in the mid/late game so adding a dig helps with that problem. And 4 forces is too many imo because the deck is already short on blue cards

If built correctly the deck has a healthy blue-count, especially post board against combo. Force is also very important for us to be able to react to what our opponent is doing early-game, whether it's forcing a delver, entomb or goblin lackey.

Regarding the number of visions it's not dead later in the game at all, you can still cascade it, suspend it, pitch it to fow or shuffle it away with brainstorm. Playing fewer than 4 does not make it better in the late-game, you're only less likely to see it overall, including when you play a blind agent. Again, playing shardless is a drawback, and if we start cutting visions for DTT we should probably consider playing another deck that can play a more reactive game where DTT can be a key player. If you really don't want to be clunky you can board a few visions out.

You can of course play a DTT alongside the visions, but cutting our deck's most important card for DTT is not a good way to build the deck.

[James_Nguyen]

If built correctly the deck has a healthy blue-count, especially post board against combo. Force is also very important for us to be able to react to what our opponent is doing early-game, whether it's forcing a delver, entomb or goblin lackey.

Regarding the number of visions it's not dead later in the game at all, you can still cascade it, suspend it, pitch it to fow or shuffle it away with brainstorm. Playing fewer than 4 does not make it better in the late-game, you're only less likely to see it overall, including when you play a blind agent. Again, playing shardless is a drawback, and if we start cutting visions for DTT we should probably consider playing another deck that can play a more reactive game where DTT can be a key player. If you really don't want to be clunky you can board a few visions out.

You can of course play a DTT alongside the visions, but cutting our deck's most important card for DTT is not a good way to build the deck.

What do you mean by built correctly? I'm I misbuilding my deck? How many blue cards should one have in their deck if they choice to play with 4 force of wills?

[Krimson Viper]

I've seen a list or two with Snapcaster Mage, but no talk about it. How is it in this deck and should I keep my set?

[DOM]

I've seen a list or two with Snapcaster Mage, but no talk about it. How is it in this deck and should I keep my set?

If I recall correctly, Snapcaster Mage had appeared in a few lists when Shardless BUG was a new archetype. He failed to become an auto-include because he is a terrible cascade and Shardless is lacking targets for Snapcaster. Nevertheless, you might consider keeping a few because he can be used in BUG Control, thus you would expand your deck assortment.

[Cambriel]

Hold onto em. They're outside the reprint range for MM2 and highly sought after. A year from now they'll be at Dark Confidant prices.

I just got around to building this deck over the weekend and I really enjoy it. Looking forward to reading back through this thread and getting a better understanding of how it all works. :)

[Krimson Viper]

If I recall correctly, Snapcaster Mage had appeared in a few lists when Shardless BUG was a new archetype. He failed to become an auto-include because he is a terrible cascade and Shardless is lacking targets for Snapcaster. Nevertheless, you might consider keeping a few because he can be used in BUG Control, thus you would expand your deck assortment.

BUG Control? I thought there was only one BUG colored control deck: Shardless BUG?

[rickster]

Man Lejay's deck is great. I don't know how people can play only 2 wasteland and baleful stinks. I've been very content with zero discard main deck. Currently 6-1 in DEs with the deck (I got dropped playing for 4-0 since modo is a piece of garbage), and I’ve had no prior experience with this archetype. My only loss was to the mirror. So I’m really impressed. But I've beaten a lot of combo, so I’m probably lucky (tin fins, 3x storm, 1x omnitell)

I updated it a little bit with the new cards.

-1 goyf || +1 tasigur
-1 force || +1 dig through time

I keep the blue count the same, weakening myself to combo by losing a force. And I replaced goyf with another goyf like card. This changes the numbers a bit on shardless agent's cascade, I’m not sure if it's a good or bad change.

I also didn't like the plow in the sideboard. You want to bring it in vs wasteland decks and having a wastable white source is a liability, so I just cut it for a containment priest for sneak and show/reanimator hate. I also cut a duress, to put the 4th force in the board, that hurts the burn % but I think I'm fine with that.

I know Lejay has a tuned sideboard where he has the right amount of bad cards in his main deck to replace with his good sideboard cards. These changes could be wrong, but they haven't been completely terrible yet.


http://i.imgur.com/TzIJCPT.jpg

[Jsang]

-1 goyf || +1 tasigur


Please don't do that, I would rather cut a toxic deluge. Goyf is too important to be cut, and it is the best cascade target behind av.

[LarsLeif]

What do you mean by built correctly? I'm I misbuilding my deck? How many blue cards should one have in their deck if they choice to play with 4 force of wills?

If you start with:

4 Vision
4 Shardless Agent
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace

Then your blue-count is already at a pretty healthy 18. That is not counting things like a possible DTT or Ponder (Lejay's list runs 1 Ponder instead of the 23:rd land, and I do that as well). In this deck with 4 visions you are also very likely to have a few extra blue-cards to pitch if necessary.

[LarsLeif]

-1 goyf || +1 tasigur
-1 force || +1 dig through time

I also didn't like the plow in the sideboard. You want to bring it in vs wasteland decks and having a wastable white source is a liability, so I just cut it for a containment priest for sneak and show/reanimator hate. I also cut a duress, to put the 4th force in the board, that hurts the burn % but I think I'm fine with that.



Don't cut goyf. Other than for budget-reasons you don't cut that card.

Replacing force with dig is interesting but I don't like it, if you really want to play DTT you can replace a Jace or the sylvan with it, not our combo-protection.

Replacing the Plow with something else is interesting but you should at least consider the following:

1. You can cast plow without fetching the Savannah with DRS, or cascade it. Even if they waste your Savannah it is usually fine as you don't have any other white spells and they're basically wasting a forest.

2. The plow is for Delver and other fair creature-based decks, so keep in mind that replacing it with priest that doesn't do anything against those decks weakens your fair matchups a bit. Not by a lot but it is important to keep in mind why the plow is there in the first place.

[SilkyPimP]

Local IQ next week where Delver/S&T/Jund are heavily played. (Possibly infect, Tom Ross plays here so a lot of our locals play infect last 2 events.)
I have not played since the invitational so I am tweaking to play some Legacy :cool:

I am running 2 thoughtseize main this time. with 2 hymn/1 duress/1 thoughtseize in the board. I know a lot of us have been playing 0 discard main, which I have had a lot of good results with myself. I just want to be "pre boarded" a little when I play the combo decks this time.
Its either going to be 2 hymn or 2 seize main, a few people are going to be running S&T and storm because of my deck/elves doing well last few events. Maybe I should just jump on the meddling mage board tech? I have yet to try it.


Dropping to 1 strix/1 deluge (hard to cut them because we have such a heavy delver meta)

4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Baleful Strix
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dig Through Time
2 Thoughtseize
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

I really like the Sylvan Library/DTT but I can see cutting them. The Library/Strix make the goyfs massive in all my games.

I will have to playtest this week with our group and see what the board should be. I have even run chill last IQ because they had so much UR Delver/Jund/Burn going around, I really enjoyed chill against Jund, lol watching them squirm under it when they have a handful of punishing fires/bloodbraid/bolts it nice. its probably not needed :tongue:

[Kirika]

Went 2-2 this past weekend at my local legacy event.

Beat Elves and High Tide, and lost to Infect and Storm.

Main deck toxic deluge is just so good against elves winning me game 1. Game 2 he was never in it since I had containment priest, meddling mage followed by a Night of Souls Betrayal.

vs Elves board
+2 Containment Priest, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +4 Meddling Mage +1 Night of Souls Betrayal, +1 Savannah, +1 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Thoughtseize
-4 Ancestral Visions, -1 Forest, -2 Jace, -1 Sylvan Library, -4 Tarmogoyf

high tide he got me game 1 though 1 force and I drew a force off the spiral but he had a counter for that too. Games 2 and 3 Meddling Mage on High Tide takes it with some help from Discard to take wipe away that he wished or merchant scrolled for.

vs High Tide board
+2 Duress, +4 Meddling Mage, +1 Savannah, +2 Thoughtseize
-4 Ancestral Visions, -1 Wasteland, -2 Tarmogoyf, -2 Toxic Deludge

Game 1 Infect had the nuts turn 2 kill and I did not have the force or decay. Won game 2. Game 3 he had an inkmoth kill while I was holding Decay and Liliana :(

Infect I board
+1 Night of Soul's Betrayl, +1 Savannah, +1 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Thoughtseize
-4 Ancestral Visions, -1 Underground Sea

Storm got me game 1 didn't draw any forces. Game 2 I had the force for his turn 1 ad nausuem and had a turn 2 mage on Infernal Tutor. Game 3 I duressed him took his ad nasuem but he braintormed into gas and made 16 goblins turn 2 and I could not find my one of Maelstrom Pulse. I boarded out both Toxic Deluge maybe should keep those in.

Board plan versus storm is
+2 Duress, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +4 Meddling Mage, +1 Null Rod, +2 Thoughtseize
-4 Abrupt Decay, -2 Toxic Deluge, -4 Ancestral Visions
Maybe I should keep a Deluge or two and take out Shardless Agent since its pretty slow. Shardless can cascade into discard or Meddling Mage, or Null Rod though.


@Lars Leif
I find that active vial is pretty bad news because they can swarm you or attack your mana while still developing their board. Didn't play against Death and Taxes this week so did not get to try the Thoughtseize plan.

I've had using Containment Priest to nerf vial be game winning where they had a handful of creatures that were able to be dealt with one at a time or they didn't have double white or had even no colored lands. The Ambush viper on Spirit of the Labrynth came up at least twice so it does work.

@Island Swamp
Not sure how I would fit in a Dig through Time but Tasigur is awesome.

I think you need Forest and Swamp so you can abrupt decay bloodmoon. I typically fetch for forest and then just get Underground Seas after that unless I know I am playing Bloodmoon and then I get the Swamp.

I been playing since 94 myself. I would play MTGO but its so expensive. Wastelands cost alot although Tempest Remaster helps that. Dunno if I want to buy Goyfs again either.

@James_Nguyen
4 Visions is necessary so you have max chance to cascade into them or draw them turn 1. Late game you can Brainstorm them back or pitch them to Force.

@Krimson Viper
Snapcaster is not very good in Shardless because it is bad to cascade into since you might not have mana to use the flashback ability.

@rickster
Cutting force just seems bad. You have enough card advantage that pitching a card to force is not a huge deal and you really need the full 4 versus combo.

I cut the 3rd Liliana for Tasigur and have not missed it.

I like the Plowshares since it kills things that disfigure and abrupt decay do not. Would not cut Plowshares for Containment Priest. You should cut the Leyline or Cage for Priest depending if you face things like Loam or Punishing Fire. I ended up cutting Needle for a second Priest since Elves and Show and Tell are popular in my meta. There are match ups like Delver, Stoneblade decks, Infect that you want extra removal.

[LarsLeif]

I realize that shutting vial down is good, it's just that boarding a priest to do it feels really weak for all the reasons mentioned earlier (+ that it makes their Flickerwisps into Swords to Plowshares on a winged body). Compare it with a card such as Null Rod that shuts down all vials and all their equipment as well while being much harder for them to get rid off.

Regarding boarding against combo (with the MM-board), what you usually do is board out all goyfs. Your gameplan after board should not be racing but making the opponent unable to go off almost completely, which is not that difficult when you have access to 4 hatebears, 4 fow and 3-4 discard post board. I can give some basic examples of boarding but as always, adapt to what you see from your opponent, there are many ways to board.

Versus Elves I usually board:

On the Play:

-4 Tarmo
-4 Visions
-2 Jace
-1 Library
-1 Forest

+4 MM
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 NoSB
+1 Thief
+1 C-Priest
+1 Savannah
+1 Plow

On the draw:
-4 DRS
-3 Liliana
-2 Jace
-1 Goyf
-1 Visions
-1 Library

+4 MM
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 NoSB
+1 Plow
+1 CPriest
+1 Savannah
+1 Thief

The Elves board plan might seem weird, but Lejay assured me it was good and now that I've tested the matchup a lot I agree. DRS is really bad on the draw vs elves and Liliana is as well, so it's just better to cut them. The rest should be pretty self explanatory.

Versus infect I usually board:

-4 Goyf
-2 Jace
-2 Visions
-1 Liliana
-1 Forest

+4 MM (Invigorate is usually a good name when going blind)
+4 Discard
+1 NoSB
+1 Swords
+1 Savannah

This config has worked well for me and I've played the matchup pretty much. Not to say that we are super-favoured post board but I would say it's about 40/60 in their favour pre-board and around 60/40 for us post board.

Versus Storm I usually board:

-4 Goyf
-4 Decay
-2 Deluge
-1 Forest

+4 MM
+4 Discard
+1 Thief
+1 Rod
+1 Savannah


If you play 4 MM and 4 Discard in the SB I recommend the discard spells to be 1-cmc ones so that you can see the opponents hand before you slam MM turn 2.

On a final note, Tasigur seems cute but I worry a bit about going down to only 4 cards MD that deals with a resolved TNN.

[Kirika]

@LarsLeif
Thanks for the advice.

The elves board on the draw does look weird but you Deathrite is less good if they go first and get one out first. I rather keep Liliana as an answer to lone Progenitus and to attack their hand

How effective do you find Notion Thief I tried it iand found 4 mana for Notion Thief in legacy is a lot. I liked it better in my Vintage Bomberman deck with moxes to get it down faster and Cavern of Souls on Human.

What does your board look like?

My board is (just swaped out the needle and the Leyline from Lejay's board for 2 containment priest)
2 Containment Priest
2 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Meddling Mage
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Null Rod
1 Savannah
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

I was on 2 Jace, 2 Liliana before I moved to Lejay's build. There seems to be less True Names at least locally I know two RUW Delver players who switched to BUG Delver and Storm since the Treasure Cruise ban and the RUW Stoneblade player went to Miracles.

[LarsLeif]

@LarsLeif
Thanks for the advice.

The elves board on the draw does look weird but you Deathrite is less good if they go first and get one out first. I rather keep Liliana as an answer to lone Progenitus and to attack their hand

How effective do you find Notion Thief I tried it iand found 4 mana for Notion Thief in legacy is a lot. I liked it better in my Vintage Bomberman deck with moxes to get it down faster and Cavern of Souls on Human.

What does your board look like?

My board is (just swaped out the needle and the Leyline from Lejay's board for 2 containment priest)
2 Containment Priest
2 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Meddling Mage
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Null Rod
1 Savannah
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

I was on 2 Jace, 2 Liliana before I moved to Lejay's build. There seems to be less True Names at least locally I know two RUW Delver players who switched to BUG Delver and Storm since the Treasure Cruise ban and the RUW Stoneblade player went to Miracles.

My list is:

Creatures (12):
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent

Enchantments (1):
1 Sylvan Library

Sorceries (8):
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ponder

Instants (12):
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

Planeswalkers (5):
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22):
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15):
1 Savannah
4 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Null Rod
1 Notion Thief

The problem with Liliana on the draw against elves is two-fold:

1. Deathrite is bad on the draw, which means that Liliana gets worse because we cannot do our signature [T1 DRS into T2 Liliana of the Veil]™ due to them hosing our DRS with their own.

2. Liliana does simply not do enough against their board when she comes down as they will likely have assembled a substantial board presence and making them sacrifice their worst creature is usually pretty bad. That she might deal with a resolved Proggi-Boi (in the very specific case when they have Progenitus as their only creature on the battlefield and no fetches to get a Dryad) is not enough to justify her either as our main plan for Big P. is making sure we never see the Hydra Syndicate in play.

So actually its just better to cut her (not physically but you know, sideboard her out) on the draw and switch into a more grindy deck with most of the goyfs and visions still in the deck.


Notion Thief has been pretty awesome for me actually, sure sometimes it's expensive but it pitches for FoW in those situations so it sort of makes up for it's clunkiness. Having Flash is also huge ofc. For me it has been really good against all cantrip-combo, control decks like miracles and slower blade decks and of course in the mirror. It's also pretty sweet against elves as it turns of glimpse and visionary while being immune to decay.

That being said Notion Thief is sort of the flex-slot in the board and you can run a lot of different cards there I feel.

[SilkyPimP]

How is the NOSB over the E plague?
I have only run Engineered plague which is sweet on the play if you can ramp it out turn 2 against them, and it also ruined D&T on humans and UR delver as well. So I can imagine just playing NOSB and cleaning there board. against elves it seems brutal

[LarsLeif]

How is the NOSB over the E plague?
I have only run Engineered plague which is sweet on the play if you can ramp it out turn 2 against them, and it also ruined D&T on humans and UR delver as well. So I can imagine just playing NOSB and cleaning there board. against elves it seems brutal

Short answer: Better

Long answer: Becasue NoSB deals with multiple creature types it is a lot better vs D&T and Elves, and also very good to slam against deathblade/esper blade as it shuts down all their cliques, snappys and TNN. Being outside decay range is also very relevant. The only matchups where it's worse is Goblins and Merfolks where it's a slower E-plague, but its strengths more than weighs up for its weaknesses.

[Lejay]

@LarsLeif : This thread really feels like someone casted clone on me.

[LarsLeif]

@LarsLeif : This thread really feels like someone casted clone on me.

Haha if someone did it was most likely me :)

No but really, you are the undisputed master of the deck and I hope that you can add stuff that I miss/don't know about or frankly just correct me if I'm wrong. :P

[dionykos]

@LarsLeif/Lejay: I've played the same list quite a bit, and I don't understand the following SB tables

Infect:

-4 Goyf
-2 Jace
-2 Visions
-1 Liliana
-1 Forest

+4 MM
+4 Discard
+1 NoSB
+1 Swords
+1 Savannah

-> This MU I haven't tested much, but isn't Liliana better than, for instance, MM in this MU? Infect weakness it being a bit light in threats so Liliana doesn't look like a cut to me.


Storm :

-4 Goyf
-4 Decay
-2 Deluge
-1 Forest

+4 MM
+4 Discard
+1 Thief
+1 Rod
+1 Savannah

-> Here I don't understand keeping all visions vs cutting all goyfs. I understand visions is ok to pitch or cascade into here, but putting pressure is probably more important. A 2/2 split seems more appropriate to me: what's your logic behind this? Also, why not side in LotV?

EDIT: Thanks for posting these btw, discussing SB tables is always very useful.

[LarsLeif]

@LarsLeif/Lejay: I've played the same list quite a bit, and I don't understand the following SB tables

Infect:

-4 Goyf
-2 Jace
-2 Visions
-1 Liliana
-1 Forest

+4 MM
+4 Discard
+1 NoSB
+1 Swords
+1 Savannah

-> This MU I haven't tested much, but isn't Liliana better than, for instance, MM in this MU? Infect weakness it being a bit light in threats so Liliana doesn't look like a cut to me.


Storm :

-4 Goyf
-4 Decay
-2 Deluge
-1 Forest

+4 MM
+4 Discard
+1 Thief
+1 Rod
+1 Savannah

-> Here I don't understand keeping all visions vs cutting all goyfs. I understand visions is ok to pitch or cascade into here, but putting pressure is probably more important. A 2/2 split seems more appropriate to me: what's your logic behind this? Also, why not side in LotV?

EDIT: Thanks for posting these btw, discussing SB tables is always very useful.

The infect SB-table is my own so maybe Lejay does something different here. I also think Liliana is fine so that's why I only SB out 1, you can surely keep all of them on the play if you want, on the draw I find her a little too slow sometimes to make me run all three though. MM has been good as their gameplan is to win pretty fast, and MM stops that from happening. Infect also traditionally lack removal so if you stick an MM they will have a hard time dealing with it.

Regarding Storm:
It's a common misconception that goyf is a fast clock, but it's actually pretty slow against decks that kills you on turn 2-3, so MM is just better as they usually cannot win through it and need to spend time and resources to deal with it, and with the time you gain you can deploy more threats, discard or draw more counters. Vision is ok to keep as you want a high blue-count and it's a very nice cascade, especially since they run discard. You can side in the LotV if you want, I usually don't like it very much as it needs to come down very fast for it to be effective, unlike vs decks with Loam/PF where you can play it a bit whenever and still break up what they are doing.

[dionykos]

Regarding Storm:
It's a common misconception that goyf is a fast clock, but it's actually pretty slow against decks that kills you on turn 2-3, so MM is just better as they usually cannot win through it and need to spend time and resources to deal with it, and with the time you gain you can deploy more threats, discard or draw more counters. Vision is ok to keep as you want a high blue-count and it's a very nice cascade, especially since they run discard. You can side in the LotV if you want, I usually don't like it very much as it needs to come down very fast for it to be effective, unlike vs decks with Loam/PF where you can play it a bit whenever and still break up what they are doing.

I am not comparing Goyf to MM, but to the 3rd and 4th visions. I do think that keeping a couple of 3/4 is better than the 3rd and 4th visions. Goyf can be the reason you keep a hand you wouldn't have kept if it was a vision: for instance a hand discard + goyf is acceptable even if the rest is average, whereas the same hand with vision instead of goyf can be a mulligan, and I don't see the opposite being true in this MU.

[LarsLeif]

I am not comparing Goyf to MM, but to the 3rd and 4th visions. I do think that keeping a couple of 3/4 is better than the 3rd and 4th visions. Goyf can be the reason you keep a hand you wouldn't have kept if it was a vision: for instance a hand discard + goyf is acceptable even if the rest is average, whereas the same hand with vision instead of goyf can be a mulligan, and I don't see the opposite being true in this MU.


Basically it comes down to three hings:

1. Keeping two goyfs in is not speeding up the clock that much since you will probably meet see them early/reliably enough. If your game plan is going to revolve around fast Goyf beats, you should keep in 3 or even 4. And that is not even considering how much slower goyf is compared to delver for example. I've never missed them post board.

2. Vision is a much better cascade, and in this matchup you can't afford to hit a goyf when you cast Shardless. The same principle as when we talk about how many visions to play maindeck holds true here as well, maximize the cascades.

3. Visions pitch to fow and is a good trump to their slower draws where they play a lot of cantrips and discard.

[James_Nguyen]

So is everybody on the white sb plan now?

[dionykos]

Basically it comes down to three hings:

1. Keeping two goyfs in is not speeding up the clock that much since you will probably meet see them early/reliably enough. If your game plan is going to revolve around fast Goyf beats, you should keep in 3 or even 4. And that is not even considering how much slower goyf is compared to delver for example. I've never missed them post board.

2. Vision is a much better cascade, and in this matchup you can't afford to hit a goyf when you cast Shardless. The same principle as when we talk about how many visions to play maindeck holds true here as well, maximize the cascades.

3. Visions pitch to fow and is a good trump to their slower draws where they play a lot of cantrips and discard.

1. I don't buy that argument. It's not like goyf is your only beater. And again I compare it to vision, nothing else.

2. That's a good argument, makes your cascade more reliable.

3. If they have slower draws, goyf is good as well.

So it all comes down to cascade (vision better) vs drawing it naturally (where I think goyf is better in almost all situations but the ones where you need a blue card to pitch). I will keep that in mind in my testing, thanks.

[SilkyPimP]

So is everybody on the white sb plan now?

Did you play Elves in the Seattle invitational? I think I played you 2nd round.

I plan on testing the white splash tonight/this weekend. I want MM and priest but debating the singleton spt. I want to run MM since it seems to help the s&t matchup which is dismal. I am just so spoiled on how the deck thrashes "fair decks" in my meta ( funny how I am only worried about what 5 players are bringing (s&t, storm,infect,elves are the decks they play)

[James_Nguyen]

Did you play Elves in the Seattle invitational? I think I played you 2nd round.

I plan on testing the white splash tonight/this weekend. I want MM and priest but debating the singleton spt. I want to run MM since it seems to help the s&t matchup which is dismal. I am just so spoiled on how the deck thrashes "fair decks" in my meta ( funny how I am only worried about what 5 players are bringing (s&t, storm,infect,elves are the decks they play)

I played UR delver 3 times and 1 miracles day one. But is did play elves 4 times when i won and easily 4-0 so i think the match up a good one. I dont think sneak and show is a bad match up and if people are moving more to the mono blue version then it becomes even better for shardless.

[btm10]

So is everybody on the white sb plan now?

I've tried it, it's fine, but it's not my first choice. I haven't played much Shardless lately, but I'm sort of ambivalent toward the no MD discard/white SB build. I like 0 Strix, 2 Deluge main, but I'm really not down with almost fully ceding game 1 to combo. I also don't like that adding a color postboard opens us up to Blood Moon decks even more. It's not like Painter is a good matchup to begin with, and I've found that Sneak and Show invariably brings in Moon postboard. I've also seen lots of Miracles lists with Moon in the board, and that's a matchup where I've really liked Meddling Mage.


1. I don't buy that argument. It's not like goyf is your only beater. And again I compare it to vision, nothing else.

2. That's a good argument, makes your cascade more reliable.

3. If they have slower draws, goyf is good as well.

So it all comes down to cascade (vision better) vs drawing it naturally (where I think goyf is better in almost all situations but the ones where you need a blue card to pitch). I will keep that in mind in my testing, thanks.

I also disagree that Goyf is too slow against combo. Meddling Mage can be bounced, Decayed, REB'ed, Massacred, or just played around by almost any combo deck and when you lose it you lose both a piece of disruption and your clock. Don't get me wrong - when I've played the white splash I've liked Mage against combo, but he's no substitute for Goyf as a beater and Goyf is your best clock by far.

[SilkyPimP]

I have seen a friend of mine get a Blood Moon slammed on him after he named show and tell. Then got sneak attacked lol.
I am sleeving up my MM now for testing. Excited :tongue:

[LarsLeif]

I sort of feel I need to expand my argument a bit concerning Goyf versus Visions: Yes mistah' T is a solid card and usually putting the combo opponent under the fastest clock possible is preferable but our game plan after board is more of a lockdown plan with hate-bear beatdown than the more TA-y approach of disruption + big beats.

When we combine all our disruption post board, the opponents generally don't break out of it. It is very hard for a normal combo deck to adjust to all those angels, as they essentially have to dilute their main gameplan to deal with them more or less. I'm not saying that it can't happen. Sometimes they are able to deal with MM, plus possess the necessary means to push their combo through discard and FoW, but that isn't usually the case, we just draw into more disruption due to our deck being packed with draw spells and disruption post board. It's not that we don't have a clock either as DRS + MM and a random Shardless for example kill someone pretty quick. A Visions that's ticking down is also a fast clock as it will be difficult for the combo deck when we draw into even more disruption. All this combined with the already mentioned cascade maximizing and that visions pitch to force leads me to cut the goyfs instad of visions. You are of course free to do as you wish here and if you don't agree with these arguments then that's your prerogative.

Regarding Blood Moon I've faced that card a ton and I don't view it as a huge problem. Just fetch a basic swamp and cast Deathrite, then decay/pulse it, or just float mana and decay, or fetch both your basics, or force it (since they are holding blood moon instead of the combo/protection hoping for an easy win that usually isn't there) or discard it or whatever. It's of course an annoying card but if you know that they are likely bringing it in (which is usually the case) then playing around it isn't that hard.

I hope this made things more clear.

[DOM]

I usually board AV out in the fast matchups like Combo, Elves, Affinity. I reduce the number of Tarmogoyfs versus Combo and Elves too, though.

[LarsLeif]

I think it's ok to board out some visions in the matchups where you board MM and decay is live, like elves on the play and vs infect.

[dionykos]

I sort of feel I need to expand my argument a bit concerning Goyf versus Visions: Yes mistah' T is a solid card and usually putting the combo opponent under the fastest clock possible is preferable but our game plan after board is more of a lockdown plan with hate-bear beatdown than the more TA-y approach of disruption + big beats.

When we combine all our disruption post board, the opponents generally don't break out of it. It is very hard for a normal combo deck to adjust to all those angels, as they essentially have to dilute their main gameplan to deal with them more or less. I'm not saying that it can't happen. Sometimes they are able to deal with MM, plus possess the necessary means to push their combo through discard and FoW, but that isn't usually the case, we just draw into more disruption due to our deck being packed with draw spells and disruption post board. It's not that we don't have a clock either as DRS + MM and a random Shardless for example kill someone pretty quick. A Visions that's ticking down is also a fast clock as it will be difficult for the combo deck when we draw into even more disruption. All this combined with the already mentioned cascade maximizing and that visions pitch to force leads me to cut the goyfs instad of visions. You are of course free to do as you wish here and if you don't agree with these arguments then that's your prerogative.


Your point is well taken, don't worry, and it may well be the correct way to approach these MUs. I was really just looking for a debate/discussion around this point, and you answered it clearly, so thanks for that. We now got the arguments stated properly, just need to try it out - that's why I find these SB table discussions very valuable, they really force us to get a deeper understanding of the deck.

[LarsLeif]

No offence taken, I usually question a lot of things myself, and it has served me well :)

I am a little concerned about the new DTT-Omnishow decks as they now have a good way of fighting through discard and card disadvantage. I feel that if they stay monoblue we are really favoured post board since they have few ways to deal with MM, especially if we get 2 of those online quickly and name S&T and C-Wish. Some of the versions don't even run the backup Dream Halls plan anymore. The worries comes from the version that splash for red, which is sort of worse overall I feel, but better against specifically shardless BUGw as they play a lot of flusterstorms, reb-effects and DTT while being less clunky than Sneak & Show. At least they don't play Blood Moon :P

My concerns might be entirely unjustified as I've only played to matches against them so far, and they have both been tight.

[dionykos]

I am a little concerned about the new DTT-Omnishow decks as they now have a good way of fighting through discard and card disadvantage. I feel that if they stay monoblue we are really favoured post board since they have few ways to deal with MM, especially if we get 2 of those online quickly and name S&T and C-Wish. Some of the versions don't even run the backup Dream Halls plan anymore. The worries comes from the version that splash for red, which is sort of worse overall I feel, but better against specifically shardless BUGw as they play a lot of flusterstorms, reb-effects and DTT while being less clunky than Sneak & Show. At least they don't play Blood Moon :P

My concerns might be entirely unjustified as I've only played to matches against them so far, and they have both been tight.

I agree with that. Also in several MUs, Liliana got worse since DTT as it gives the opp a way of getting two cards from hellbent (which is the reason why they were playing sensei top sometimes). As much as I love this planeswalker, I think the meta is not great for her and I'm testing with less Lilianas atm.

[LarsLeif]

I'm unsure about cutting Liliana, or more precisely, concerned with what we should replace her with in that case. Liliana is in the deck for mainly three reasons: being a midgame threat/2for1/removal that doesn't die most removal (in order to attack from different angels), answering TNN and simultaneously pressures combo/control opponents hands. That she also forces creature decks to overextend into Deluge is also nice.

I am not saying that Liliana has no weaknesses, and I am definitely all ears about ideas but if she should be replaced then the replacement should ideally fulfill almost the same role but have other advantages. What have you replaced her with in your decks?

[btm10]

I agree with that. Also in several MUs, Liliana got worse since DTT as it gives the opp a way of getting two cards from hellbent (which is the reason why they were playing sensei top sometimes). As much as I love this planeswalker, I think the meta is not great for her and I'm testing with less Lilianas atm.

I get where you're coming from, though I wouldn't say the meta is bad for Liliana right now. I already run just 3 Walkers (2 Lili, 1 Jace) and it's been fine. If you're looking for an extra MD-able piece of disruption, I continue to find Dimir Charm pretty solid.

[dionykos]

I'm unsure about cutting Liliana, or more precisely, concerned with what we should replace her with in that case. Liliana is in the deck for mainly three reasons: being a midgame threat/2for1/removal that doesn't die most removal (in order to attack from different angels), answering TNN and simultaneously pressures combo/control opponents hands. That she also forces creature decks to overextend into Deluge is also nice.

I am not saying that Liliana has no weaknesses, and I am definitely all ears about ideas but if she should be replaced then the replacement should ideally fulfill almost the same role but have other advantages. What have you replaced her with in your decks?

I'm trying with a 3rd Jace (Thief slot) and a 3rd Deluge (Nosb slot) MD instead of 2 Lilianas. The interaction between Jace and Deluge is quite nice too.

The problem is that it triggers quite a lot of changes:
- First it puts more pressure on life total, making library a bit weaker and at the same time less needed as there is a 3rd Jace. It makes me consider Strix again as a way of preserving life total and curving to Deluge and Jace, which in turns makes the forest undesirable, etc.
- It strenghten the Elves and DnT tough MUs pre-board, but probably weakens control MUs (need to test that more), even though as I said I think Liliana is a bit weaker now because of DTT. Non graveyard based combo are slightly worse too preboard but they were very bad already anyway.
- The slots of the 2 Lilianas, now in SB, can also change. I found at least one clique being good here for the combo and control MUs.
- Overall it makes the deck even more controlly and less midrange.

[LarsLeif]

NoSB MD is certainly an option of there is a lot of TNN, tribal and elves in your meta-game. A third jace main deck is actually very decent in control matchups.

I worry however that those changes leaves you a bit weaker to combo and also against tempo thresh and the other delver decks as you increase the curve and cut Lilianas. If you are ok with those matchups being worse I guess your changes are fine. One thing to keep in mind though that while Liliana is a bit worse than usual vs DTT-decks she is still good. I never SB out any Lilianas against DTT-Combo decks for example.

Running Strixes and NoSB MD might be not be the best fit, but it depends on how many strixes and deluges you run.

[deucegg]

hey guys, this is my current list:

Creatures (13)

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
1x Tombstalker

Instants (12)

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay

Sorceries (8)

2x Toxic Deluge
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Ponder

Other (5)

1x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace TMS

Lands (22)

3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
1x Polluted Delta

Sideboard (15)

4x Meddling Mage
2x Containment Priest
2x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
1x Savannah
1x Null Rod
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Chill

I really like that 1-off Ponder instead of a land, I'm not too sure if cutting 1 Underground Sea (leaving me with 3 as a result) is the right choice, I didn't have problems using it so far though. Any suggestions which land I should possibly cut instead? I personally don't like dropping to either 1 Bayou or Tropical..
My current 'testing' spot is my one-off Tombstalker: I've been testing Dig, Tasigur, Strix, 3rd Lili but came to the conclusion that Tombstalker is the right choice for me.
I've been testing maindeck discard a lot (3 hymn / 3 Thoughtseize/ mixture) but don't really like it so I'll play without it. Sylvan Library and 2 Deluges have been huge for me.
ATM I'm thinking about cutting 1 Jace TMS for DTT, I h aven't been too satisfied with Jace in this particular list, most likely because of the shere enormity of red delver decks in my local meta.
Suggestions?

[LarsLeif]

I've been running 4 seas, 1 trop and 1 bayou (+ 1 forest and 1 swamp) for a long time now and it's the correct choice for your list as you never need double black or double green turn 2. I have never experienced needing several trops or bayous. 4 Wasteland is also the right number in this deck I feel.

The deck played Tombstalker before in the pulse-slot (with pulse in the SB) but we cut the Tombstalker for pulse and also replaced a land with ponder to make up for the one less threat in the deck. Tombstalker is nice but I'm not sure I want it over Liliana.

It's unclear whether it's worth dedicating SB-slots on the Burn matchup but it's a meta thing so I wont judge.

[dionykos]

Running Strixes and NoSB MD might be not be the best fit, but it depends on how many strixes and deluges you run.

I wouldn't run NoSB and Strix in the same 60, but I found running Deluge and Strix together not being a problem as you don't really need Strix when you cast Deluge, and Strix gives you enough time to cast Deluge safely. The problem with Strix is that you cannot run a forest, so the manabase works in a completely different way (can't do forest/sea/sea/sea anymore).

With this config (Strix and Deluge instead of Liliana), Delver isn't an issue, but we are weaker to control/combo. Really I'm only trying this because I feel that Liliana may become weaker and weaker as everyone starts playing DTT in control and combo. But I may just be overreacting to DTT.

@Lejay: any view on shardless position in a DTT meta and how we should adapt the build?

[Kirika]

Went 3-0-1 at the weekly local legacy event with basically Lejay's list with some minor tweaks

Black (5)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Tasigur
2 Toxic Deluge

Blue (15+4 multi = 19)
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

Green (5)
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf

Multicolor (13)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Shardless Agent

Lands (22)
1 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Meddling Mage
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Null Rod
1 Savannah
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

Might try out Notion Thief in the Cage slot but there is Dredge, Elves and Storm in my Meta.

Beat Painter 2-1, MUD 2-0, and Sneak and Show 2-1. IDed with Death and Taxes. Split Top 4.

Painter
Game 1 he comboed me out turn 4 or so. Don't have a force or decay.
Game 2 he had the turn 1 moon but I had the force. Had answers for magus of the moon and a Null rod and beat him down with a Goyf.
Game 2 he mulligans a couple times and has a three moons but I have the basic lands and answers and beat him down with a Tasigur.

Boarding vs Painter
-2 Ancestral Visions, -1 Jace, -1 Underground Sea
+1 Night of Soul's Betrayal (kills Goblin Welder and Phyrexian Revoker), +1 Nullf Rod (turns of Grindstone and Sensei's Top), +1 Savannah, +1 Swords to Plowshares.

I don't think Meddling Mage is worth it here with all their Red Blasts and the possibilty of Fire Bolts from the board. Ancestral Visions and Jace get hit by Red Blast so take them out.

MUD
Game 1 he mulls into oblivion and I easily win.
Game 2 I have a double wasteland hand with force and force his metal worker off monolith keep him off getting mana to do much of anything + get Jace in play and start fate sealing him off any lands.

Mud sideboarding
-2 Ancestral Visions, -1 Underground Sea
+ Null Rod, +1 Savannah, +1 Swords to Plowshares

Haven't played this match up much. Swords does get hit by Chalice but having more answers to metal worker or large artifact fatties is important.

Sneak and Show
Game 1 I do have a Force for his Show and Tell by the time he finds it but he forces back. I try to kill Griselbrand with Maelstrom pulse but he draws into force off the draw 7. Griselbrand beats me down.
Game 2 I duress him take bloodmoon get a mage on sneak attack which is joined by a deathrite and a Liliana and win off that.
Game 3. Have a turn 2 Mage on Show and Tell with a force in hand. Wasteland a sol land and a volcanic + decay a petal to keep him low on mana and Mage + Tasigur take it.

Sneak and Show side boarding
-4 Ancestral Visions, -4 Tarmogoyf, -2 Toxic Deluge, -1 Underground SEa
+2 Containment Priest, +2 Duress, +4 Meddling Mage, +1 Savannah, +2 Thoughtseize

Keep Abrupt Decay/ for Bloodmoon/Defense Grids. Keep Maelstrom Pulse in case they have Jace. Maybe should keep some number of Goyf because of Pyroclasm?

@LarsLeif
Thanks for your list, seems we both are a few cards different from Lejay's original. Might go up to 3 Thoughtseize and 1 Duress but been running 2 Thoughtseize 2 Duress. Have to try out Notion Thief again. It was underwhelming when I was trying it in Deathblade often coming down too late but I had some ridiculous blow outs with it.

@SilkyPimP
NOSB is just better then Engineered Plague because it just kills all X/1s and does not die to Abrupt Decay. Death and Taxes it kills Mother of Runes, Revoker, Spirit of the Labrynth, Thalia. Elves it kills all their Symbiotes and Dryad Arbors in addition to elves which leaves only Deathrite and Setinel for Natural Order food. It does not die to their Abrupt Decay either. Painter it kills Revoker and Welder.

Containment Priest is what you want vs Show and Tell decks. Some have moved to OmniTell

@dionykos
I think Liliana is necessary as an answer to Progenitus and True-Name Nemesis. The discard is also good to pressure combo decks. I sometimes take out Goyfs against combo as well. Goyf really isn't that fast a clock against combo cause typically there is only Land, Instant, maybe Sorcery in the yard. You also don't want your blue count too low for Force.

Shardless is still good even with Dig Through Time in the meta. I been playing against Jeskai Delver/COntrol with Digs, High Tide with Digs and winning.

@Deuegg
I rather have Tasigur then Tombstalker. Tasigur can give you more card advantage through his ability.

Is there alot of burn in your Meta that Chills are worth it? Lately there is not much burn in my meta as most of the former burn players bought another deck or don't come anymore to local events. We still have a couple though. Not enough to warrant side board space though.

[LarsLeif]

Nice showing, seems that you didn't exactly face our most desirable matchups but you came out on top regardless which is nice! Gratz! :)

[L105]

@LarsLeif
Hi, I'm playing shardless with the same 75 cards of your list and I'd like to know how do you board in / board out against Miracles, Lands, 12Post ;)
Thanks in advance^^

[dysent]

I'm a non-white-splash 4waste build similar to Lejay's MD (but without the postboard splash).
Had a few q's for some of the experts:
Misdirection - I wanted to test 1x misdirection, but it seems like it's only good against a few decks these days. Anyone have insight on misdirection's value post-khans in legacy? Seems way better against us than for us... Before dropping 100$ on modo on one card just to see if it's good - it's not good enough anymore, yeh? More for pure control than us.

I'm looking to pick up % vs mono-island and mono-mountain postboard. I've been very happy with my results against every other deck but omni-show, merfolk and burn. Merfolk doesn't seem fixable without distorting the deck, but omni-show and burn might be. Is there a card that does work against both those decks that's maindeckable? I'm leaning towards -1 deluge +1 _something_ to shore up both matches. (in terms of deck comp, I'm 4 vision 4 waste 2 lili 2 jtms 2 deluge 1 ponder 1 DTT 1 tasigur, 0 maindeck discard).

Fwiw - I am a big fan of the 1DTT 1 Tasigur split. Felt like the right number of both after about 20 matches with this exact 75. Karakas can be a bit annoying, but only wastelandable fair decks run karakas, and this build is so good in those matchups that it's just not super relevant. I've done 0 DTT 0 tasi, and 2 DTT 1 Tasi, and 3 DTT 0 tasi + more ponder. This felt the best out of all those sets.

[btm10]

I'm a non-white-splash 4waste build similar to Lejay's MD (but without the postboard splash).
Had a few q's for some of the experts:
Misdirection - I wanted to test 1x misdirection, but it seems like it's only good against a few decks these days. Anyone have insight on misdirection's value post-khans in legacy? Seems way better against us than for us... Before dropping 100$ on modo on one card just to see if it's good - it's not good enough anymore, yeh? More for pure control than us.

I really like MisD. It's a 5th Force against Miracles and combo (you do have to have an initial counter, but once the war begins, they do the same thing), it's good against Burn, it's absurd in the mirror or against BUG Delver, and it can kill opposing TNNs. I've been running Divert in my BUG Delver board as tech for the mirror and it's been great.



I'm looking to pick up % vs mono-island and mono-mountain postboard. I've been very happy with my results against every other deck but omni-show, merfolk and burn. Merfolk doesn't seem fixable without distorting the deck, but omni-show and burn might be. Is there a card that does work against both those decks that's maindeckable? I'm leaning towards -1 deluge +1 _something_ to shore up both matches. (in terms of deck comp, I'm 4 vision 4 waste 2 lili 2 jtms 2 deluge 1 ponder 1 DTT 1 tasigur, 0 maindeck discard).

The only maindeckable card I can think of with utility against both Omni and Burn is Dimir Charm.

[dysent]

I really like MisD. It's a 5th Force against Miracles and combo (you do have to have an initial counter, but once the war begins, they do the same thing), it's good against Burn, it's absurd in the mirror or against BUG Delver, and it can kill opposing TNNs. I've been running Divert in my BUG Delver board as tech for the mirror and it's been great.



The only maindeckable card I can think of with utility against both Omni and Burn is Dimir Charm.

I think I'd prefer to run Hymn or Ponder over Dimir Charm, since it's a pretty bad flip with shardless agent.

These things actually maybe go together... I can try replacing 1x deluge (mainly for TNN, elves, delver/thresh)
with Misdirection (good vs burn, reasonable vs combo, acceptable vs some TNN decks, acceptable vs miracles, great vs mirror)

I worry that it won't pan out because we run no countermagic other than FoW... and too many white decks are on Will of the Council - but we'll see how it plays.

[LarsLeif]

@LarsLeif
Hi, I'm playing shardless with the same 75 cards of your list and I'd like to know how do you board in / board out against Miracles, Lands, 12Post ;)
Thanks in advance^^

Ok, here it goes, I will try to explain a bit as just presenting the +/- will probably only confuse people:

How to board against miracles really depends on their build and their SB-strategy but usually what happens is that they board in a lot of reactive spells like Blasts, CS, Cliques, Misdirection, and answer-cards like EE and Council's Judgement, and also more hard to deal with threats like Keranos, the 3rd EtA etc. But you have to pay attention to what you see: Do they keep CB in? Do they board RiP or Blood Moon? Multiple misdirection effects?

So, against a standard list we can examine some cards from the sideboard that might be interesting first:

Null Rod: Shuts off top while being hard for them to deal with - auto-include
Notion Thief: In addition to being a flash-creature that interacts with draw spells (in other words excellent vs control) it can also stop top-activations etc which can be pretty huge - comes in
Discard spells: If they board reactive spells (which they probably will) these become very good, as resolving our key spells is very important and it gets harder for them to resolve EtA if we have stripped their own countermagic - i usually bring those in. That they sometimes deal with supreme verdict or keranos is nice as well.

When looking at cards to take out some are more obvious than others. Deluge is obviously bad against sweeper.dec, but other cards are not obviously bad. What I usually do is board out Liliana, as she is definitely ok, but becomes worse after board as they board more answers for her, and them going up to 3 EtA means that they also can do their classic “Entreat after Liliana-ultimate ftw” easier than pre-board games. In addition to that ticking Liliana up isn't that exciting against a deck that plays from the top and it also conflicts with us wanting to hold force of will + blue for EtA/Keranos.

The last card that needs to go is even harder but I usually cut 1 DRS if I cut Liliana.
But if you notice that they board out all CBs and don't bring in any RiPs, then you can cut a decay instead.

So a basic table:
+1 Rod
+1 Thief
+4 Discard
-3 Liliana
-2 Deluge
-1 DRS/Decay

Hope that this clears some question marks for that MU. As always, adapt to what you see, don’t overextend into Terminus and make sure they don’t resolve EtA for a large amount. Your trumps in the matchups is Library and Null Rod, and of course all our CA engines, so try to construct your game plan around resolving those.


Jumping to Lands I actually discussed this with a good friend of mine a week ago, Dosferra here on thesource, as he happens to be one of the absolute best lands players in Sweden. This matchup is more straightforward to SB against as Lands is a pretty linear deck.

We are definitely the aggressor in this MU so our aim should just be to attack their manabase (yes their mana) and hopefully win pretty quickly. Looking at the SB we have some instant slams: Null Rod (shuts of all their moxen and also EE) and Leyline of the Void (as it shuts of both their Loam Engine and their PF-engine). We also definitely want to bring in the Savannah so that we go up to 23 lands. And we want to bring in MM as it beats and shuts off Punishing Fire and Loam.

When it comes to what to cut some cards are easy. Deluge does nothing, and neither does Liliana, so they are both gone. The next cuts are more difficult, but I can see cutting the Pulse (as it's a slower decay with few upsides in this MU) and 1 Jace/visions depending on play/draw.

So:
+4 MM
+1 Rod
+1 LotV
+1 Savannah
-3 Liliana
-2 Deluge
-1 Pulse
-1 Jace/Visions

Ok, that's mostly it. When playing the matchup keep in mind: Exploration must never resolve, and if it does, make sure it's decayed ASAP. Otherwise they just win. Other than that, plan 1 is to attack their mana if possible and lock out their ability to loam and play punishing fire with MM and leyline. And preferably kill them.


Against 12post it's sort of the same game plan, but I haven’t tested the matchup enough to present exact board plans. That being said my thoughts are something like: +3 Thoughtseize +1 Priest +1 Null Rod +1 Savannah -1 Forest -2 deluge -2 visions -1 decay but maybe MM can be good here as well, it depends a lot on whether they run Repeal i think. A lot of cards seem ok but not great in the matchup, including our walker-suite. I could see boarding pretty radically with all the discard and all the MM’s coming in while cutting decays, walkers, deluges etc. Only testing can say for sure.

[LarsLeif]

I don't think misdirection is that exciting in this deck, I can't say I feel like cutting anything for it as it's overall a bit weaker than FoW. But if you want to test it you can ofc buy it and try it out.

Mono-red = Burn and Mono-blue = S&T/High Tide combo decks?

There are few cards that are good against both Burn and MonoUCombo as they are exact opposites. Dimir Charm as stated has uses but the card is really weak, especially as a cascade. I have dropped the Burn matchup in a sense that I know it's unfavourable but I'm fine with that and wont waste space trying to beat it. If you want you can play Jitte, Warmth of even Sphere of Law. Against Mono-blue combo MM is great, and if you want to run Lejays MD then you should definitely run the SB white-splash, as the MD is constructed with that in mind. If you want to improve the merfolk matchup you should probably go up to 3 Liliana as she is obviously better than Banana-Boi against them.

[L105]

@LarsLeif
Ok thank you so much for your advices, I'll make sure to test against 12 post and I promise that I'll attack their mana base very well^^
PS. I recently tested against MUD and I totally destroyed it just by using Wasteland (3 in the first 3 turns) :cool:

[LarsLeif]

Haha yeah Wasteland is such an overpowered card. The amount of free wins it provides is insane.

[dysent]

@LarsLeif
Ok thank you so much for your advices, I'll make sure to test against 12 post and I promise that I'll attack their mana base very well^^
PS. I recently tested against MUD and I totally destroyed it just by using Wasteland (3 in the first 3 turns) :cool:

Just be very careful about wastelanding into Crop Rotation. It's one of the ways they can beat piles of wastelands. Try to clock them or PW pressure them - make them act and waste in response, rather than wasting into open mana if you haven't seen their hand or put an MM naming crop rotation.

Also - Tested misdirectionx1. Was unimpressed. Highly situational of a situation we're not crafting very often. Gonna try hymnx1 in that slot, see if the mana is workable with a 4waste build.

[deucegg]

do you guys board meddling mage against miracles? Has worked out quite well for me, but I'm not too sure as they're running swords, blasts and snapcaster mages and terminus (unless you name it) ? I'd rather run them instead of forces

[LarsLeif]

I don't board MM against Miracles. They have too many ways of getting rid of them, and we haven't got that many dead cards to take out either.

[tons of fun]

ashiok has been hitting the mark against miracles

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Relatively new to the deck so, rather than read everything from page 1, could someone give me a TL;DR synopsis about why the title of this thread is "BUG Shardless Control" but the MTGTop8 lists all the Shardless BUG decks as Aggro/Midrange? Question to all: do you consider this to be a control deck or an aggro deck?

[testing32]

Relatively new to the deck so, rather than read everything from page 1, could someone give me a TL;DR synopsis about why the title of this thread is "BUG Shardless Control" but the MTGTop8 lists all the Shardless BUG decks as Aggro/Midrange? Question to all: do you consider this to be a control deck or an aggro deck?

Depends on the match up and what you draw.

[LarsLeif]

I would say that the title here on thesource is slightly misleading, I always think of this deck as Aggro-Control (or Midrange, although that is a troublesome category to define). As stated above, depending on our draw, we either assume control (like in Mass Effect! :P ) or we play out more aggressive.

[DOM]

I am inclined to call Shardless BUG aggro-control with the emphasis on control side. The usual development features slowing down your opponent's progress with discard, removal and Force of Wills to survive until a point when you have plenty of mana (3+) and can start casting threats thus making it more difficult for your opponent to recover. CA helps to ensure that both parts of the plan can happen. At least that is how I usually operate with this deck and it sounds fairly Control to me. Midrange is probably a good definition for Shardless as well, but it means aggro-control, as far as I know.

Actually, this deck is rather similar to Punishing Jund in terms of playstyle and I for one consider Jund to be a control deck before aggro.

[Krimson Viper]

ashiok has been hitting the mark against miracles
Could you expand on this please?

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Could you expand on this please?

Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

I guess he means so that you can screw up their top deck manipulation, if they're trying to Entreat? Seems a bit situational though, as they could still do this EoT, no?

[janchu88]

hi,

just registered cause i found the best input for shardless bug across the net in this topic. Really like the ideas spreading over here and testing a lot of them. The only point i dont really get, how the **** can you guys afford playing 4 wastelands + basics in the same 60? Everytime i tried basics maindeck or raising the wasteland count, i felt like i remarkebly screwed much more often. Right now the losses due to screw tend towards zero, which im perfectly fine with. But with the slightest changes i regularly see unplayable hands, especially with 4 wastelands

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

hi,

just registered cause i found the best input for shardless bug across the net in this topic. Really like the ideas spreading over here and testing a lot of them. The only point i dont really get, how the **** can you guys afford playing 4 wastelands + basics in the same 60? Everytime i tried basics maindeck or raising the wasteland count, i felt like i remarkebly screwed much more often. Right now the losses due to screw tend towards zero, which im perfectly fine with. But with the slightest changes i regularly see unplayable hands, especially with 4 wastelands

Could you post your decklist? It would help to know how many wastes/lands you run?

[deucegg]

looking for some md/sideboard cards that actually do well vs Burn but aren't too narrow. Im currently running 2 Chill in my board which are awesome, but only against Burn.. So I Was thinking about Scavenging Ooze (maybe 1 maindeck 1 sideboard?). Don't really know if he's worth it as he just dies to a Lightning Bolt unless you get to remove 2 creatures and use 2 green mana which makes him rather slow in this scenario, but he can gain you some crucial life later on giving you some extra time which is huge as well. Furthermore he helps against ANT, Dredge, Reanimator, RUG and other graveyard heavy decks, too.. I'm currently running 3 green sources (1 Forest/Bayou/Trop) +4 DRS. Are 3 enough if im playing 1 main 1 side?
and are there any other suggestions?
SB Stuff im bringing in vs burn atm:
MM, 2 duress, 1 stp, (Chill)

[janchu88]

Beforce i came here my list looked like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Force of Will
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Scrubland
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Forest
SB: 1 Swamp

already approved changes from my original list are going to be:

Maindeck:
- 2 strix + 2 deluge
- 1 Hymn + 1 Sylvan Library

SB
- 1 Cage + 1 Containment Priest
- 1 E Plague + 1 NoSB

Those were the results of my last tests so far, but the main number of games i made with the list above

[LarsLeif]

hi,

just registered cause i found the best input for shardless bug across the net in this topic. Really like the ideas spreading over here and testing a lot of them. The only point i dont really get, how the **** can you guys afford playing 4 wastelands + basics in the same 60? Everytime i tried basics maindeck or raising the wasteland count, i felt like i remarkebly screwed much more often. Right now the losses due to screw tend towards zero, which im perfectly fine with. But with the slightest changes i regularly see unplayable hands, especially with 4 wastelands

It really depends on you maindeck configuration, i.e how many difficult mana-requirements like strix, hymn etc you run. The version with 4 wastes generally play without these and can use the wasteland for mana if need be. Generally speaking as a person that's played both the versions with few wastelands and 4 wastes I can say that yes, playing 4 wasteland will give a small % more screw, but that is outweighed by a much higher % of free game wins that playing quad waste provides. And that's not even considering going up against the mirror and punishing fire decks, where wasteland is super good even if it doesn't win by itself.

[LarsLeif]

looking for some md/sideboard cards that actually do well vs Burn but aren't too narrow. Im currently running 2 Chill in my board which are awesome, but only against Burn.. So I Was thinking about Scavenging Ooze (maybe 1 maindeck 1 sideboard?). Don't really know if he's worth it as he just dies to a Lightning Bolt unless you get to remove 2 creatures and use 2 green mana which makes him rather slow in this scenario, but he can gain you some crucial life later on giving you some extra time which is huge as well. Furthermore he helps against ANT, Dredge, Reanimator, RUG and other graveyard heavy decks, too.. I'm currently running 3 green sources (1 Forest/Bayou/Trop) +4 DRS. Are 3 enough if im playing 1 main 1 side?
and are there any other suggestions?
SB Stuff im bringing in vs burn atm:
MM, 2 duress, 1 stp, (Chill)

I think that the green sources for ooze are at a dangerous low. I discussed Ooze with Lejay before during the TC era but we dismissed it then for that reason. If you get to untap with it it's pretty good, but keep in mind that there usually isn't that many creatures in graveyards when you face burn and eating them with Ooze only gains 1 life while eating them with DRS gains 2.

I think that the best card against burn (that is also viable vs other decks) is Jitte, even though it is slow it sort of forces your Burn opponent to kill all your creatures, if they didn't bring in smash to smithereens or something.

[janchu88]

Ok, so i guess it is Kind of a meta decision as well. I will stick with 2 wastelands since biggest Part of the played Decks over here are elves, miracles, dnt and all sorts of blade builds. Maybe i will try a third wasteland, i will See... Thanks anyway!

[Whitefaces]

It really depends on you maindeck configuration, i.e how many difficult mana-requirements like strix, hymn etc you run. The version with 4 wastes generally play without these and can use the wasteland for mana if need be. Generally speaking as a person that's played both the versions with few wastelands and 4 wastes I can say that yes, playing 4 wasteland will give a small % more screw, but that is outweighed by a much higher % of free game wins that playing quad waste provides. And that's not even considering going up against the mirror and punishing fire decks, where wasteland is super good even if it doesn't win by itself.

I'll second this. I was always playing 2 or 3 Wastes (depending on build), but decided to up it to 4 and accept the awkward games. Playing a T1 Shaman followed by waste + 2 drop is so powerful.

How has Liliana been for everyone? She's been incredibly underwhelming for me recently and will be cutting her to try other options.

[LarsLeif]

I'll second this. I was always playing 2 or 3 Wastes (depending on build), but decided to up it to 4 and accept the awkward games. Playing a T1 Shaman followed by waste + 2 drop is so powerful.

How has Liliana been for everyone? She's been incredibly underwhelming for me recently and will be cutting her to try other options.

Yeah, DRS into wasteland is the best of the best, the tempo-swing is so huge. Liliana has been an ok (just ok) but necessary card for me. So she remains but if you find a nice replacement that does most of what she does but better I'm all ears.

[Whitefaces]

Yeah, DRS into wasteland is the best of the best, the tempo-swing is so huge. Liliana has been an ok (just ok) but necessary card for me. So she remains but if you find a nice replacement that does most of what she does but better I'm all ears.

What is the necessary role that she is playing? Deluge cleans up TNN easily, and I don't think she is very good outside of midrange mirrors that we are already geared to beat. I'm trying out Clique in her place. It provides more disruption for combo decks G1, and pressures PWers enough to be able to cut Malestrom Pulse (which I've always found horribly clunky, but necessary).

[LarsLeif]

Leaving only deluge to deal with TNN feels very risky, even with 2 Deluge and 3 Lilianas I still get games where a turn 3 TNN just goes the distance. The roles Liliana fills for me is:

1. Deals with problematic creatures that decay cant kill (TNN mainly).

2. Provides other angels of attack/pressure vs control decks.

3. Makes the deck the beast it is against blade decks.

4. Pressures combo.

5. Kills creatures and forces decks playing creatures to overextend into deluge.

I like clique but I don't see that it can fill all these roles, (or perform just some of them but better) and it's also problematic to cast on time vs wasteland decks as it requires double blue. Playing cliques and deluge and NoSB also feels a bit subpar but that can be addressed by maybe playing other cards in those slots but I don't know.

[deucegg]

I think that the best card against burn (that is also viable vs other decks) is Jitte, even though it is slow it sort of forces your Burn opponent to kill all your creatures, if they didn't bring in smash to smithereens or something.

Yeah, Jitte seems reasonable. I'll test it as a 2 off in my board, thanks!

Regarding the Liliana debate:
I personally don't like playing her, but I just don't think theres a better alternative here. I'm playing 2 atm which is okay for me, imo 3 is 1 too much, but i also see that there are good reasons for playing more than 2. Ive tried 3 deluges as I really love this card, but the lifeloss is just too much to justify 3, especially vs tempo.
I'd rather have some cheap removal spell that still gives you some utility when cascaded into an empty board (dimir charm w a more usefull 3rd ability maybe:) )

[deucegg]

Also:
http://mtgpulse.com/event/19562#275838

Dont really like bobs but w/e looks interesting

[janchu88]

anybody got some advice for the Reanimator MU? Got no one here playing it and online i played only a few times against it and did miserable, simply cause i was lacking any plan... which are the critical things i should know about the MU? ok, DRS is nice otp, thats obvious. Do u board in meddling magE? and if so what do u name? i am always having trouble cause there are so many different reanimate spells around.

[LarsLeif]

I usually board MM, naming stuff is always depending on the situation but Exhume is a pretty nice name as the lifeloss from reanimate is relevant and reanimate targets a specific creature which means that DRS can exile in response. I keep in Liliana and Jace usually as they can deal with resolved fatties, and I usually also board the plow for that same reason. Cpriest, LotV and the discard spells are of course slam-dunks as well.

[janchu88]

ok thanks for the feedback! :)

that was exactly what i did for example last time. DRS was Laying, Meddling Mage played naming exhume and he went off with double entomb into double reanimate :laugh:

next time i meet reanimator I´ll be recording as well like in this match yesterday evening and we can analyze further what went wrong ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaPCeatmi3Y

PS: Sorry for the german comment, if u feel annoyed, just mute it ^^

[TLK]

I usually board MM, naming stuff is always depending on the situation but Exhume is a pretty nice name as the lifeloss from reanimate is relevant and reanimate targets a specific creature which means that DRS can exile in response. I keep in Liliana and Jace usually as they can deal with resolved fatties, and I usually also board the plow for that same reason. Cpriest, LotV and the discard spells are of course slam-dunks as well.

Mind posting your list that splashes white?

[LarsLeif]

I posted it a page back or so, I think you'll find it.

[TLK]

Great, thanks! Looking to finally break into this deck.

[janchu88]

did tons of games today with the list i had posted the page before, including the changes.... and to be honest it just felt awesome to play, i really underestimated the main deluge, but it can win out of such epic situations. And here comes liliana into consideration. Lili forces your enemy to extend a little bit to protect their value creatures, which makes deluging just way more fun, even if lili on her own doesnt perform that great. And usually ur goyfs still are big enough to survive the deluge

[DOM]

While having three is probably too much, a couple of Lilies is good even without Toxic Deluge. She is fairly versatile, thus decent in most matchups. Also, you often get to edict and then have her killed by an opposing creature, which saves you some lives.

On a slightly different matter, despite the popular opinion, I have been pleased with having Strixes and Deluges in my 75. You may not play Strix prior to casting Deluge and even if you do, you get a card, which could be Toxic Deluge that you needed in that matchup since you kept it in. Also, owl can keep some opposing creatures from attacking or be a beater. I have won some games while beating with Strixes thanks to their evasion. Lastly, having more blue cards for FoW is also good.

[LarsLeif]

Yeah, I mean strix is a nice card and that it replaces itself is definitely valuable if you have to pull the trigger on deluge. My main concern for strix (other than deluge/NoSB-dissonance) is mostly the manabase issue and that they are a bit weak in the metagame right now. There was definetely a time where 4 strix in the 75 was the right number (Maverick and Zoo still well represented, delver everywhere etc), but sadly that isn't the reality anymore I feel. If we look at the DTB-section here on thesource:

D&T: Here strix is very mediocre, their main threats are Thailia, Mirran Crusader and Mangara, and strix can't deal with them, and they also have SoFaI and Mom.

Elves: Strix does very little here.

Omnitell: Strix pitches to force/does nothing.

ANT: Strix does nothing.

Miracles: Strix is poor.

Blade Control: Strix trades with clique and snappy, which is sort of actually trading 1-for-1 at best as snappy and clique effectively also draws cards. It does not block TNN which is their main beatstick.

RUG and TA: Here strix is fine, but they play wasteland which makes the UB-cost a bit risky.


Adding cards to the deck that are only good in a very limited amount of matchups I feel is not worth it sadly. I can still of course see playing strix if you really want to or if you expect very many delver decks but looking at my list I see no cards that I would like to replace with strix right now.

[Whitefaces]

My main concern for strix (other than deluge/NoSB-dissonance) is mostly the manabase issue and that they are a bit weak in the metagame right now.

This is my manabase at the moment to be able to cast Strix (running 3) reliably, it's working well.

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

1 Scrubland in the board, and a Life from the Loam MD.

I think Strix works incredibly well with Deluge. It forces your opponent to overextend into it. I've cut the NoSB for Engineered Plague too.

Sure, it'd not good in the MUs you mentioned, but it's outweighed by the MUs where it shines IMO.

[LarsLeif]

I mean, sure it's easy to cast it, you just fetch 2 lands, the problem usually revolves around the lands you have to fetch being nonbasics which opens you up to wasteland.

"Sure, it'd not good in the MUs you mentioned, but it's outweighed by the MUs where it shines IMO. "

That is a meta-call and a subjective opinion in that case. Strix is bad against almost all the top decks, (and against TA we are already favoured anyway) and that fact remains even if you think that it is worth playing because of other matchups. I personally want the deck to be good against the top-decks specifically, because generally speaking those are the decks you face the most, especially during later stages of a tournament.

My point again is that it feels hard to justify playing strix right now in place of anything else. The list is super tight and pressing in strix is just very hard, not because the card is bad (it's not, just a bit off in the metagame) but because other cards are more important.

[SilkyPimP]

I love strix, he is so good in my meta with delver and other fair decks. That said he is horrible in the bad matchups. He makes your goyf bigger and blocks for walkers but at the end of the day my deck is already a good matchup against the decks he is good against.

I am thinking of adding the 2/3 hymn back main and 2 Lotv. 2 thoughtseize 1 duress board.

[Ricflairwoo]

looking for some md/sideboard cards that actually do well vs Burn but aren't too narrow. Im currently running 2 Chill in my board which are awesome, but only against Burn.. So I Was thinking about Scavenging Ooze (maybe 1 maindeck 1 sideboard?). Don't really know if he's worth it as he just dies to a Lightning Bolt unless you get to remove 2 creatures and use 2 green mana which makes him rather slow in this scenario, but he can gain you some crucial life later on giving you some extra time which is huge as well. Furthermore he helps against ANT, Dredge, Reanimator, RUG and other graveyard heavy decks, too.. I'm currently running 3 green sources (1 Forest/Bayou/Trop) +4 DRS. Are 3 enough if im playing 1 main 1 side?
and are there any other suggestions?
SB Stuff im bringing in vs burn atm:
MM, 2 duress, 1 stp, (Chill)

Feed the clan. But I'm crazy.

[LarsLeif]

No posts in almost a week? What is up guys? Talk to us, what are you playing, nice card choices, difficult plays?

I'm still on my usual list and it's been really great for me, so I recommend it as usual. Jace especially has been really good.

[DOM]

Same old, same old.

Kept the same MB and will probably keep it that way until some new good card comes around. Sideboard was often-changing, but the current version is more or less stagnant.

Deck:

Creatures - 14
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent

Instants - 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time

Sorceries - 7
1 Hymn To Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ancestral Vision

Planeswalkers - 4
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Enchantments - 1
1 Sylvan Library

Lands - 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp

Side:

2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Baleful Strix
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Force of Will

Road so far:

Tournament results:

29-01-2015 4th place, 9pts. (3-1)
08-02-2015 5th place, 9pts. (3-2)
12-02-2015 2nd place, 9pts. (2-1; Bye)
26-02-2015 1st place, 12 pts. (4-0)
12-03-2015 2nd place, 9pts. (3-1)

Matchup | Result (Win-Loss) | Win % | Times faced (l.u. 27-03-2015)

GBRw Midrange 1-0 100% (1)
Affinity 1-0 100% (1)
Death and Taxes 2-1 66.66% (3)
Dredge 1-0 100% (1)
GB Nic Fit 2-0 100% (2)
GBW Nic Fit 1-0 100% (1)
Goblin Stompy 0-1 0% (1)
Punishing Jund 3-0 100% (3)
Reanimator 1-0 100% (1)
Rw Imperial Painter 2-1 66.66% (3)
Tin Fins 0-2 0% (2)
Uw Martyr 1-0 100% (1)
Bye (1)

Deck's win %

85%

Missed this week's tournament as I had to prepare for a big bad Biochemistry quiz :(

Anyway, the results are quite pleasing so far (people with 9+ points always get prizes), the only seriously bad matchup is Goblin Stompy. Tin Fins is tough but I have almost had it the second time I faced it, so I might win another time.

[LarsLeif]

Seems sweet, nice to see that you are winning a lot! :)

I'm wondering about something strix-related. Have you tried Tombstalker in that slot? I really liked Tombstalker in my/Lejays build (before it was replaced with Pulse). It sort of fills the same role as strix (2-mana blocker for delvers etc) while it at the same time can add a lot to the decks more aggressive nature, while it's also a mirror-breaker in the BUG Delver/Shardless matchup.

I think that it's definitely something that I recommend testing. Tasigur sort of reminds but the lower manacost and the not so relevant ability I think isn't as good as flying and more power.

[DOM]

Well, I do my best to not to lose.

I would say that Strix and Stalker operate on different axes.

In adition to being a good blocker and an okay attacker Baleful Strix is a blue cantrip that can be cast as early as the second turn and is also cascade-able. Tombstalker is mainly a beatstick with evasion that is cast later, is harder to remove, costs two black mana and interferes with other delve cards (from my experience even a singleton Dig Through Time is often a dead card in hand). Basically, owl helps to elaborate deck's Control nature while the demon provides a more aggro approach. I for one consider Shardless BUG to be a Control-Aggro deck prior to being Aggro-Control, so it seems more reasonable to strengthen its Control side as it is the primary route, but Tombstalker may be a good inclusion as well.

I personally am not that exited about trying Tombstalker out as it does not seem to improve any bad matchups and I prefer Baleful Strix. Moreover, Stalker is rather similar to Tasigur, which has been very under-performing for me. Still, I may try it out on Cockatrice.

And how things are going for you? :)

[Dat_Gentleman]

I just started looking at specific deck lists for this archetype, could you guys help me understand when a certain build is more desirable?

I'm specifically looking at the white splash versus a straight BUG core, as well as when you'd want a heavy 4-of build for the most part, versus a build with a bunch of 1-of's and 2's and 3's of certain cards.

I'm completely inexperienced with how the builds look, so any help would be great!

[Lejay]

I just started looking at specific deck lists for this archetype, could you guys help me understand when a certain build is more desirable?

I'm specifically looking at the white splash versus a straight BUG core, as well as when you'd want a heavy 4-of build for the most part, versus a build with a bunch of 1-of's and 2's and 3's of certain cards.

I'm completely inexperienced with how the builds look, so any help would be great!
The deck has a quite high velocity so you prefer having different bombs in 1-2 ofs.
White splash generally skips on discard (and combo match-up) main while hymn based lists generally don't splash. I've seen people mix things though.

[DOM]

Hello, gentleman.

There are few ways to build this deck and the variant you want should be the one you fancy first and the one that suits your meta after. Some players like to have a significant amount of similarly functioning one-offs, others like to maximize the amount of same cards and so on.

As for the versions themselves, currently there is a version with discard spells main board and another version without them. The first one is built to have a decent pre-board game versus a huge variety of decks while the later is focused on beating any fair deck since game one and beat other archetypes post-sideboard. Understandably, "Anti-Fair" version has a much better game versus the fair decks than the discard version, while the later is a little more flexible.

Usually, white sideboard is used to compensate the lack of answers to non-fair decks main board while the version with discard settles with BUG colours.

I have tried the white sideboard once but none of the white cards were used, so I went back to the regular one. Nevertheless, if meta calls for it, white splash can be worth it. Anyway, LarsLeif and LeJay should elaborate on this one.

As for the regular side, it is a good way to re-configure your deck post board when discard is quite often less necessary (usually, discard gets cut in addition to FoW's). Since you do not need Meddling Mages as much when you have discard, there is less reason to run white. Also, despite I have sided the lonesome Hymn to Touarch out every time so far, it has won me some game ones, thus I have decided to keep it, but I might replace it with a third Thoughtseize if I went to an unknown meta, though.

[Dat_Gentleman]

There are few ways to build this deck and the variant you want should be the one you fancy first and the one that suits your meta after. Some players like to have a significant amount of similarly functioning one-offs, others like to maximize the amount of same cards and so on.

I am not planning on building the deck in the near future (unfortunately, as Shardless is sweet). I was mainly curious as to what metas favor which builds, what unique effects are common in each, and when I should expect a given deck/how to recognize differences. So, mainly from an opposing standpoint. Thanks for all the info! That was very detailed and helpful.

[nossirag]

Hey played a 80 man turnament with shardless, went 4-2(officially 3-3) before I dropped because I lost the first round vs burn, so there was no chance left for top 8 sadly.
1 round 1-2 vs burn
2 round 2-0 vs Bug delver
3 round 2-1 vs DnT
4 round 1-0 vs DnT
5 round 0-2 vs Elves
6 round 2-1 vs DnT

My list
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Spells:24
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time

Lands:22
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Scrubland
2 Thoughtseize
2 Containment Priest
3 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Massacre
1 Force of Will

The Dtts were super strong, also tasigur and the deluge.
Im not fully convinced about the TNN main, thinking about adding a ooze instead.
This best thing about this list is it ability to find answers for almost everything once you get into the midgame, even the 1offs are pretty easy to find and bring a lot of value. I'm also thinking about adding a flusterstorm and a karakas to the board.

[Whitefaces]

I'm surprised people are only playing one Jace, has it been under performing? I currently only own two, but would go to three if I had the third. DTT replaces the third nicely at the moment, though.

I'm also surprised people are playing three Visions. I can see it being tempting to cut as you generally don't want to see one later in the game, but it's so integral to the decks plan.

[DOM]

@Dissection

Jace is good as a two-off, but three is one too many. Jace is rather slow and you do not want to have multiples in your hand.

Usually the lists with less than two Jaces run more than one Dig Through Time, so basically you either have 2 Jaces and 0-1 DTT or 2 DTTs and 0-1 Jace. I personally am not fond of many delve cards in this deck, thus I have settled with 2 Jace - 1 DTT split (list in the previous page), though both options seem valid. More DTTs is probably a better pick whilst fighting Young Pyromancer decks, so it is meta dependent.

Ancestral Vision is integral to the deck's plan indeed, but you do not want to have multiples early in the game either. Sure, you can just suspend them all but such investment gives nothing until they can be cast. For this reason I have settled with a 3 AV / 1 Sylvan Library split. Sylvan Library is not a bad top-deck, is a decent cascade and helps to set cascades or just filters your draws, pretty solid if you ask me. I am also keeping a 2nd Library in side for the slower grindy matchups, i.e. Lands, Jund, Death and Taxes, Miracles, Mirror, etc. It is so much fun to have 3 Strixes, 2 Libraries, 2 Jaces and 2 Nihil Spellbombs in addition to all the usual suspects post-board. Now that is a grind fest!

@nossirag

I am not sure about TNN, but Scooze is unsuitable for this deck, in my opinion. You do not have a lot of green mana and usually need all the mana you can get anyway. DRS is better than Scooze in most cases as it nets you 2 lives, not just 1, and is more versatile overall (mana, damage, life gain).

Toxic Deluge is legit indeed, but is Tasigur really worth a slot?

What happened while you played against Death and Taxes and Elves? D&T should be fairly favorable post sideboard and Elves are not that bad either, I would say.

[nossirag]

@nossirag

I am not sure about TNN, but Scooze is unsuitable for this deck, in my opinion. You do not have a lot of green mana and usually need all the mana you can get anyway. DRS is better than Scooze in most cases as it nets you 2 lives, not just 1, and is more versatile overall (mana, damage, life gain).

Toxic Deluge is legit indeed, but is Tasigur really worth a slot?

What happened while you played against Death and Taxes and Elves? D&T should be fairly favorable post sideboard and Elves are not that bad either, I would say.

Thanks for pointing out the flaws with playing ooze, Ive never tried it, maybe the burn loss still gets me ^^. Im still on the fence what to play in this slot, maybe I move back to Strix ...trial and error.

Tasigur was so awesome, useful every time. Often I had something like 3 mana and was able to cast a "tasigoyf" and an abrupt decay for example. If I would play less than 2 DTT, which I wouldnt because its so awesome, I would probably play 2 Tasigurs, but 3 delve spells feels about right for me at the moment.

What do you mean by what happened against DnT?... won all 3 DnT matchups, just lost vs Burn and Elves.
vs Elves, yes, but if they are able to finish you turn 3 (vs Hymn taking Glimpse + Elf) and turn 4/5 (vs Hymn taking glimpse + Elf and a Force) there is not much one can do, I also did not find any containment priest...

This deck feels very hard to beat by "fair decks" once you stabilize on 3 mana. The DnT player (top8 in the previous 2 tournaments) I played in round 4 couldnt believe how much card draw/selection for finding answers this deck has to offer, its ridicilous.

[DOM]

Pardon, I saw 1-0 and my brain stopped working for a while...

And do you use Tasigur's ability often?

[nossirag]

Pardon, I saw 1-0 and my brain stopped working for a while...

And do you use Tasigur's ability often?

no worries :)
Not often, but in the stuations I used the abilitiy I was pretty glad that I had it for extra value and it won me at least 1 game. It feels to me similar to other cards in legacy were you could settle for another card, but the particular card is overall, looking at all possible situations one can run in, just better. ( in this case for example gurmag angler or to some extend Tombstalker) The few situations were you can draw value out of it is worth having it, especially in this midrangy deck - you win the topdeck wars just because you have the ability to topdeck more cards and select more stuff.
If that makes sense to you.

[Kirika]

Michael Raverman made top 8 at the SCG Invitational with Shardless his list is below. Couple things I do not like about it like no basic lands for blood moon or burn match ups and no 4th Ancestral Visions. It does have the white splash for Meddling Mage though.

Dig Through Time instead of the 2nd Jace seems interesting.

Disfigure seems like it would pretty good for Delver match ups where you need to kill Delver and Stoneforge or Dark Confidant.

Shardless Sultai
Michael Braverman
5th Place at StarCityGames.com Invitational on 3/27/2015
Legacy
Creatures (14)
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (3)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (22)
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
Spells (21)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Meddling Mage
3 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Still on the Lejay build since it is good for my local meta. Haven't run it in a big event yet but that might change this weekend.

@Burn
Been relying fetching for basics and drawing Tarmogoyf/Tasigur to win this one since there are less burn decks in my local meta but back when there was 5 or 6 burn decks in my local meta I ran 1-2 Jitte in the sideboard. Burn can't let you connect with a Jitte equiped creature unless they have Vortex out. Jitte is good in other creature match ups like Elves and against Delver decks.


@Lands
If you really really want to beat lands there is Telmin Performance for the instant win against Lands if you can get to 5 lands resolve it and don't get waste locked. Not useful outside of the lands match up unfortunately. Leyline of the Void might be a better bet since it is useful in other match ups.

@Liliana
Necessary as an answer to creatures like True-Name and Tasigur. Also pressures combo decks with the discard.

@Post
You want meddling mage to name Primeval Titan. Most builds of post have Cavern of Souls to push their Titan through against counter spells. Null Rod is great against their Expedition Maps and Sensei's Tops. Thoughtseize is good to bring in because it can take Prime Time, Wurmcoil or Eldrazi. You need to beat them down quickly before they can get an Eldrazi. You want to keep some decays to destroy needle on wasteland or their top in response to their fetch.

@Tasigur
I like Tasigur the 4 mana ability came up a few times to generate advantage in longer games.

@4 Wasteland
Turn 1 Deathrite followed by wasteland is nice and wastelands are actually good versus burn to wasteland yourself vs Price but 4 wasteland is not very good against Delver decks with Wasteland Stifle where more colored sources would be better.

[Kirika]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30617_The-Ultimate-Shardless-Sultai-Reference.html

Gerry Thompson's take on Shardless unfortunately a premium article. He doesn't think a white splash like Lejay is doing is worth it.

Didn't do so well last weekend lost to Storm, Death and Taxes and Esper Control. Beat dark maverick and BUG Delver.

With the white splash do you play Null Rod or Meddling Mage on turn 2 against storm with Force of Will in hand?

I played the Meddling Mage naming Infernal Tutor and my opponent ritualed into adnausuem which I forced and he had enough mana and a petal to play past in flames after that flashing back all rituals and playing Adnausuem and drawing into the tendrils since I had the mage on infernal tutor.

Versus Death and Taxes Brimaz is quite the annoyance with Karakas. Tasigur is pretty bad versus Karakas. Lost me the game twice once against Death and Taxes and again against Esper Control with Karakas bouncing Tasigur. Dunno if I want to try Tombstalker or go back to the 3rd Lili.

[DOM]

Vulnerability to Karakas plus field of expertize being a mere beatstick, that is already fulfilled by Tarmogoyf, make me think twice before adding Tasi to the deck each time such idea occurs to me. Consequently, I have never had him in sleeves, but nossirag, on the other hand, did and was pleased with the card.

[LarsLeif]

With the white splash do you play Null Rod or Meddling Mage on turn 2 against storm with Force of Will in hand?

I played the Meddling Mage naming Infernal Tutor and my opponent ritualed into adnausuem which I forced and he had enough mana and a petal to play past in flames after that flashing back all rituals and playing Adnausuem and drawing into the tendrils since I had the mage on infernal tutor.

Regarding Rod vs MM, did you know your opponents hand? If not, I would probably lead with Rod (because it hits slightly more cards in the dark), although it's a pretty marginal difference between the two I think. In your specific case it sounds like you where just unlucky, usually the storm player don't have AN, PiF and mana to cast all of them without tutoring for LED or C.Ritual or something.

[Kirika]

@DOM
Tasigur has been good in 3 long games so far where I was able to activate his ability at least once. Tasigur got bounced by Karakas 4 times so far and 3 times it was game losing. Probably cutting him though.

@LarsLeif
Did not know my storm opponents hand. Played Shaman turn 1. His turn 1 he cracked a fetch got island played Ponder. Turn 2 played the mage on infernal tutor his turn 2 he cracked another fetch and went nuts with rituals into ad nasuem which I forced and he played petal past in flames into replay rituals + ad nausuem.

[ORDAL]

Lejay make top 4 in MkM series Rome yesterday, with shardless bug. I followed him later in the tournament.

GG Lejay (that first round vs Lands :eek:)

[Ancestral]

Lejay make top 4 in MkM series Rome yesterday, with shardless bug. I followed him later in the tournament.

GG Lejay (that first round vs Lands :eek:)

there are any coverage of MKM series legacy ?

[Anen]

there are any coverage of MKM series legacy ?

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/MKMSeries/main.php?tag=20

or

http://www.twitch.tv/mtgquality

[DOM]

I just hope LeJay's adventures will not be untold.

On a slightly unrelated topic, to those who attended this MCM event: were there any side events? What was the overall tournament experience like? I intend to attend the tournament in London on summer, but I would very much prefer the possibility to play Legacy each day (side events) to playing Standard, Modern and skipping Vintage day entirely (I could borrow stuff for Standard and Modern, but Vintage sees no play in my area and country, actually).

Anyway, I 3-1'd a tournament again, losing to Tin Fins (0-2) and beating Mono Red Emrakul Stompy (2-0), Affinity (2-1) and GB Nic Fit (2-0). So far I have lost three times to Tin Fins and only won one game (not a whole round). Any advises for taming this beast?

Here's my 75 prior sideboarding:

Main board:

Creatures - 14
4 Deathrite Shaman 
2 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf 
4 Shardless Agent

Instants - 12
4 Brainstorm 
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will 
1 Dig Through Time 

Sorceries - 7
1 Hymn To Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ancestral Vision

Planeswalkers - 4
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Enchantments - 1
1 Sylvan Library

Lands - 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta 
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island 
2 Bayou
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit 
1 Swamp

Sideboard - 15

2x Pithing Needle
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Duress
2x Golgari Charm
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sylvan Library
1x Baleful Strix 
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Force of Will 

And that is how MB looks post-board:

Creatures - 14
4 Deathrite Shaman 
3 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent 

Instants - 11
2 Surgical Extraction 
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will 
1 Dig Through Time 

Sorceries - 5
1 Hymn To Tourach 
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers - 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 

Enchantments - 2
2 Sylvan Library

Artifacts - 4
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb

Lands - 22
~

Seems legit on paper but my opponent manages to win nonetheless. Post-board he usually goes for the Doomsday finish, but Surgical Extraction is decent even then and Nihil Spellbomb works as a cantrip at worst and negates his reanimation route if he happens to leave that package in.

This and Goblin Stompy are my worst matchups so far and I would really like to improve my odds versus Tin Fins.

I have considered In the Eye of Chaos, but I realised that it does not go well with Force of Wills. On the other hand, it does its job quite well and I can just keep my FoW's in hand until this enchantment gets bounced with Chain of Vapor :/

[Kirika]

Went 3-1 this past weekend.

Tried out the Gerry T list but cut 3 badseize for the 4th Force and 4th Visions and cut Dig for Sylvan Library. Kept the board the same.

Don't really like thoughtseize outside of the combo match up.

Beat Storm, MUD and BUG Delver and lost to Slivers.

Slivers if they open with Vial just comes out too quick to deal with unless you have Deluge. Crystaline turns off your targeted removal and Galerider makes them fly over your blockers. They have enough lords they get too big to block quickly unless you have a big goyf. Not to many people play slivers though.

Disfigure was nice to have in the BUG Delver match and turn 2 Arcane Lab of deathrite shaman was pretty awesome versus Storm but I think I might go back to the white splash for board. Hymm to Torach main deck has been pretty good in both the BUG Delver and Mud matches.

[Krimson Viper]

I overheard a conversation last night about this deck having a bad match up against Death and Taxes. Is that true?

[DOM]

We need our mana and D&T is known for taxing it, so it is a problem game one but can be quite favorable post-board, if you have decent answers in the sideboard to replace Force of Wills especially as they usually do not work well in this matchup, at least in my experience.

[wcm8]

I overheard a conversation last night about this deck having a bad match up against Death and Taxes. Is that true?

This is a mana-hungry deck.

Sometimes you can curve perfectly into DRS -> Goyf -> [bombs, etc.] and cast a very timely Toxic Deluge.

Other times, you stumble on mana and they lock you out with a turn 1 Mom/Aether Vial, Thalia/Port/Wasteland, Phyrexian Revokers on your over-costed Plansewalkers while resolving bombs like Mirran Crusader.

So I'd say it is partially draw dependent, and can be further effected by specific card choices (e.g. number of Mirran Crusaders, Gilt-Leaf Liege, etc.). In generally, yes, DnT is favored here. Though amongst Blue-based midrange decks, BUG Cascade probably has slightly better matchup than some other options.

If you see a lot of this in your metagame, you can make the matchup a complete joke by running a few Dread of Night. Otherwise, banking on getting lucky with your Toxic Deluge and Night of Souls Betrayal is not the best bet.

[DOM]

Quick question: choosing between these two, would you rather have Duress or Thoughtseize in your sideboard? I have been keeping a Duress couple but, aside from Burn matchup, life loss does not seem that relevant while the lack of restrictions Thoughtseize provides allows to discard Painter's Servant, Magus of the Moon and alike. Thoughts?

[rickster]

Go with thoughtseize. You should give up the burn match up. Thoughtseize is also better than duress vs the show and tell decks.

[James_Nguyen]

Quick question: choosing between these two, would you rather have Duress or Thoughtseize in your sideboard? I have been keeping a Duress couple but, aside from Burn matchup, life loss does not seem that relevant while the lack of restrictions Thoughtseize provides allows to discard Painter's Servant, Magus of the Moon and alike. Thoughts?

I agree with rickster but i think you want more hymns vs combo decks and dont think you want too many thoguhtseizes vs most decks after board.

[DOM]

I often sideboard all the discard from MB, but in matchups were discard matters I am more inclined to use targeted discard instead of Hymn to Tourach. 1 MB - 2 SB split of Hymns was my first configuration, but after a few tournaments I cut sideboard Hymns for Duress because they cost less mana, thus can be cast on turn one. Mostly, BB cost and inability to be cast on the first turn makes Hymn less favorable versus Combo or Moon decks, in my opinion.

[LarsLeif]

Thoughtseize is the better card (over Duress) for sure. I keep the 3-1 split seize-duress because it gives us another card to sideboard against RUG Delver (and Burn) and that's it really. Not to say that the life-loss from seize is irrelevant, but as stated earlier, being able to hit creatures is important. Regarding Hymn vs Thoughtseize it mostly comes down to the build. With a Meddling Mage sideboard it's nice to be able to see the opponents hand with seize/duress etc.

[DOM]

3-1 Thoughtseize and Duress split seems fairly reasonable. As for the Meddling Mage, as far as I have seen, she usually appears in lists without MB discard and I am not too keen on giving it up. I have tried the white splash and it was not as good as regular alternative in my metagame. As for an open meta, I would feel safer with MB discard as well.

1-off Hymn to Tourach has led to some blowouts game one, but I side it out in ~90% of games which also indicates that any additional sideboard copies would be unused (which actually happened on the first few tournaments I ran a 1-2 MB-SB split).

[Whitefaces]

Have any of you guys tried Mana Maze? I'm looking for a 1 or 2 cmc permanent we can cascade into for combo MUs, more specifically Omnitell and storm. MM is great and I have a playset, but the more I play discard the more I don't like it.

[Mkr]

T4'd the Super Sunday Series Legacy Event on GP Kyoto last weekend using the latest Lejay build except for -1 Leyline +1 Nihil Spellbomb. (After scrubbing out in the main event with Deathblade lol)

W Dark Maverick 2-1
W Big Red 2-1
W Belcher 2-1
L Reanimator/Painter Hybrid 1-2
W Infect 2-1
W Bant Miracles 2-1
D Infect 1-1
W Omnitell 2-1
W Esperblade 2-1

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Lejay make top 4 in MkM series Rome yesterday, with shardless bug. I followed him later in the tournament.

GG Lejay (that first round vs Lands :eek:)


Does anyone know why Lejay doesn't have a Creeping Tar Pit in his MKM deck? LarsLeif?

[LarsLeif]

I'll quote one of Lejays earlier posts: "I don't want to slow myself down". And that's basically it. For a pretty aggresive deck that wants to ideally go 1-drop into 2-drop into 3-drop or something along those lines, tap-lands are a poor fit. It's also mostly good in our already good matchups like miracles and blade.

[Krimson Viper]

Is this deck a control deck or an aggressive deck?

[LarsLeif]

Both ;-)

Also known as "Aggro-Control" or "Midrange".

[Manipulato]

Is this deck a control deck or an aggressive deck?

It's definitly a control deck! It has just the option to close games quite quick with Tarmogoyf against unfair decks. The deck is designed to get into the lategame and win with high impact cards like Jace, Lili, Agent, Visions, Toxic Deluge etc.

[LarsLeif]

It's definitly a control deck! It has just the option to close games quite quick with Tarmogoyf against unfair decks. The deck is designed to get into the lategame and win with high impact cards like Jace, Lili, Agent, Visions, Toxic Deluge etc.

Just because a deck doesn't fold in a grindy game doesn't make it into a control deck. Is 12-post a control deck? Jund? I personally think that there is more to be lost than gained by putting this deck into a fixed category like control or aggro, it is really a combination and can switch roles depending on match-up and the contents of your hand.

[Manipulato]

Just because a deck doesn't fold in a grindy game doesn't make it into a control deck. Is 12-post a control deck? Jund? I personally think that there is more to be lost than gained by putting this deck into a fixed category like control or aggro, it is really a combination and can switch roles depending on match-up and the contents of your hand.

For me its a Control deck with Tarmogoyf because everything else is just super slow & grindy.

By the way, this deck sections name is "BUG "Shardless" Control :tongue:

[DOM]

Just because a deck doesn't fold in a grindy game doesn't make it into a control deck. Is 12-post a control deck? Jund? I personally think that there is more to be lost than gained by putting this deck into a fixed category like control or aggro, it is really a combination and can switch roles depending on match-up and the contents of your hand.

Jund is a control deck, Shardless even more so. Tarmogoyf is arguably the main Aggro element in the deck and one rarely casts it early in the game. Discard, Brainstorm comes before Tarmogoyf versus combo, discard and removal - against fair decks.

[LarsLeif]

If you want to call this deck a control deck you can absolutely do that.

I personally don't like calling decks that wastelands and beats face with goyfs and bears control, for me a control deck is more a deck like Miracles, Lands and BUG Landstill for example. Nor do I want to call this deck an aggro deck since it has a lot of planeswalkers and removal. Aggro decks are mostly linear archetypes like Zoo, Merfolks etc.

So with those thoughts in my head I prefer to describe the deck as Aggro-Control, not one or the other, but both.

[Crazy88]

Aggro-Midrange-Control is a spectrum and, imho, this deck is positioned between Midrange and Control.

It's not classic Control because it just doesn't sit there playing draw go (think Miracles), it's not aggro because it's not aggressive enough (that's pretty clear) and it's a bit threat light to be "classic" midrange. The difference I see between Shardless and pure Control is that you're more aggressively using your resources (lands, graveyard with DRS) instead of just sitting back. There are lots of games in which you'll try to resolve spells on curve (1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop, even 4 in the case of Jace) instead of just waiting (hence the Tar Pit argument raised earlier).

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Doesn't it depend on the cards you see on the other side of the table? Larsleif mentioned earlier that the deck can adapt to be either control or aggro, as needed. The strength of the deck is that you can play it differently according to the situation you're facing. My guess is that other people have the same problem that I have; I can't adapt!

[DOM]

This problem kind of disappears post-board, though my SB is not built in a manner which allows me to go full on Aggro on my foes. It is quite the contrary, actually. However, what are the matchups were you would rather be Aggro instead of Control? I mean, sure, sometimes you just slip a Tarmogoyf to the battlefield early on the game if there are no things to toy with on your opponent's side of the field and you have no discard available, but still Shardless BUG is much stronger on the late game, thus controlling your opponent until you can sink him or her in your CA is the go-to strategy.

[Crazy88]

The first parameter I use to identify my role is the archetype I'm playing against. That's pretty simple: if you're up against a deck that can go "bigger" than you (i.e. has the better late game), you're the beatdown. It doesn't mean you're going to cast all your guys non-stop and play like Zoo, but you can't afford to sit back on removal and counters. These are represented by two archetypes: superior Control decks (closer to the control end of the spectrum) and combo decks (their late game is better because it short circuits the game from early stages to "I win" before you're able to develop your game plan).

Against assorted aggro decks you're obviously taking the Control role. The blurry lines start when you face midrange decks (think Stoneblade, some slower Delver variants). In these games it will all depend on your hand, draws and the board state. It's not so easy to define a role before a game starts in these matchups - you and your opponent may have control-ish starts or aggressive starts. Skill and practice with the deck are a decisive factor here.

Of course, MtG is a nuanced game and these definitions are simplified. You'll have to adapt to what your starting hand and draws present to you. Sometimes against Combo you won't be able to be aggressive, but rather play like a classic Control deck and sit back on discard and counters because you can't afford to kill your opponent fast enough and (almost) tapping out for a Goyf is suicide.

Here are some good articles on the topic:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/3692_Whos_The_Beatdown.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/23775-Eight-Core-Principles-Of-Whos-The-Beatdown.html

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=2754

[Holiday]

Have any of you guys tried Mana Maze? I'm looking for a 1 or 2 cmc permanent we can cascade into for combo MUs, more specifically Omnitell and storm. MM is great and I have a playset, but the more I play discard the more I don't like it.

This comment got overlooked but I think it's worth discussing. I have not considered playing Mana Maze in the sideboard. I could see having at least one copy against combo. I would run it over Arcane Laboratory because it costs 2. The guys splashing W for MM probably wouldn't bother with this.

I guess the question to consider is: How much does it really hurt combo?
Mono-U Omni-tell was a big presence at a few recent events. Mana Maze would slow them down but not stop them from wishing for a Wipe Away.
ANT/TES would probably also have to bounce or AD it before they could go off with all their black spells.
It could stop Elves from having a big turn with Glimpse.
Burn could probably play around it by casting instants during your turn.

[DOM]

Cascade Mana Maze and your Shardless Agent gets countered (?).

[Dziga Murnau]

Cascade Mana Maze and your Shardless Agent gets countered (?).

No, it will resolve. Maze prohibits casting of spell, it does not counter them.

[SFL-Brainstorm]

Just played Shardless BUG for the first time at a larger tournament. As a long time BUG Delver player I wanted to try something new but still a bit familiar. The results were encouraging to say the least, as I won the 31 person event and didn't drop a match. I played the following list:

"Shardless Bug"
Creatures (14)

4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (24)

1 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Visions
4 Abrupt Decay

Lands (22)

2 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 SWamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bayou


Sideboard (15)

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Sylvan Library
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod

Played the following matchups:

Rd.1 (W 2-1)- Parfait:
One of our local players dredged up a sweet old list with some cool new updates. Game two he played a turn two Blood Moon, but discard combined with a loose keep by him in G3 was enough.

Rd.2 (W 2-1)- Death and Taxes
Game one feels close or slightly negative, but post board this felt great. I lost G1 to Mirran Crusader beats, but G2 and 3 were a breeze with disfigure, toxic deluge and golgari charm.

Rd 3 (W 2-0)- BUG Delver
He was on the Stifle variation, but overall this MU felt amazing. We just go bigger and have a way better late game.

Rd 4 and 5 (ID)-
It was a 31 person event, so I was able to double draw and make top 8 as the 3rd seed.

I will post the details of the Top 8 later, as well as changes I'm going to test going forward. If you have any suggestions on the list I would be most appreciative!

[LarsLeif]

Congratz on your results and welcome to the deck! :)

I don't really have time to discuss your specific list much, but my advise is to read the thread, even posts pretty far back, good things have been posted there.

[SFL-Brainstorm]

Thanks LarsLeif! I definitely checked out the thread to come to this list, but will continue to read back on old posts. As promised here are the Top 8 results as well as proposed changes:

Top 8 (W 2-1)- RUG Delver
The Stifle/Wasteland pressure feel very good against us, but I made sure to keep land heavy hands when given the option. Liliana of the Veil was amazing in this matchup, as RUG is very threat light. I left in the Hymns on the play, and swapped them for Thoughtseizes on the draw (a pattern I repeated often over the course of the tournament).

Top 4 (W 2-1)- RUG Midrange
A RUG deck with more of a treasure cruise era feel. He was playing Young Pyromancer and Dig Through Time. I lost game one to a True Name Nemesis, but overall this felt great. We were both trying to play a card advantage game, and Shardless just does that better than anything else. Deluge and Golgari Charm postboard were huge.

Finals (W 2-1)- Omnitell
Hymn to Tourach did serious work. Truth be told I felt fortunate to win this matchup as my board was not well suited for it. I really only had the Thoughtseizes to bring in. An awesome curve of Deathrite Shaman into Lily, into Hymn, into Jace with Force backup was enough to take down G3 and the win!

Maindeck Changes:
I want to cut one FOW from the main deck and move it to the board, thinking of playing a singleton Ponder here. Keeps my blue card count up while helping me filter cards.

Sideboard Changes:
Cut two Blue Blasts, one Maelstrom Pulse, and one Nihil Spellbomb.
Add one Seal of Primordium, one Force of Will, and two Flusterstorms.