[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

@SFL-Brainstorm, congrats on the result and props for the reports! Do you know if SouthFloridaMagic will be posting videos of all your matches?

A few questions:

What was your decision process not to include Sylvan Library in the main deck? Did you sideboard it in for any games?
Was Baleful Strix used/useful?
Any problems with your mana-base? Only one basic? All good?
Did you find yourself needing a 3rd Wasteland?
Why Seal of P. rather than Krosan Grip?
Why no love for Maelstrom Pulse? ;-)

[SFL-Brainstorm]

1. I didn't include Sylvan Library or Toxic Deluge in the main so that I would have room for the third Hymn to Tourach and the one of Thoughtseize to better improve my combo matchup. I boarded in Library in all of my fair/grindy matchups.
2. Baleful Strix was awesome and I only ever boarded it out in the finals. It is absolutely amazing against any Delver deck as it is always a two for one and matches up great against Goyf.
3. The mana base was good in testing and all tournament. I honestly don't think the deck can afford a second basic, and the Swamp was important to reliably cast Hymn on turn two.
4. The two Wastelands were good. I wish I could support a third but I think it would strain the mana base too much.
5. Seal of Primordium was suggested to me and it sounded great. Being able to cascade into it and play it even when we don't have a target is nice. It is also sweet to put into play against Omnitell off of their Show and Tell. I don't like having to hold up mana every turn with this deck.
6. The Maelstrom Pulse was a clunky catch all answer in a deck with a lot of clunky pieces already. The fair matchups were great post-board already, so it doesn't seem necessary. If I wasn't playing Tar-Pit I would include it for killing Jace.

[eatbasics]

Is anyone else feeling that Tarmogoyf is the worst card in the deck?
Sure he is beast in some matchups but in others he is just too clunky, fragile or useless. I've been realising last week, that one of our main ways to win, creature beatdown most of the time led by goyf, is a pretty frail plan. Other than that we have Jace(,DRS, Agent), and maybe Tarpit.
That's when I started thinking how are we gonna win, if we don't have a safe and/or robust way to win matches to begin with?
We don't have Entreat like Miracles or many high impact treats like aggressive style decks.
What does all our cardadvantage and adaptive play uses us, if we can't win for sure?
Maybe I am completly wrong or maybe some people are feeling the same way. Let me know it ;)

I have been toying with Thopter Foundry Combo lately to tackle that problem but haven't come to a conclusion yet. Maindeck could look like this:
4 Shardless Agent
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Baleful Strix
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Abrupt Decay

SB:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Meddling Mage
4 Duress
1 Savannah
1 Engineered Plague
1 Force of Will
2 Pithing Needle

Here I want to discuss mainly the swap Goyf for Thopter but I am also open for critisism on anything else in that list :)
I'm looking forward to hear your opinion on that.

[DOM]

No... I have not noticed that Tarmogoyf became inferior out of the sudden. It is our main beater for a reason.

Anyway, there was a user, Tons of Fun, who had included the Thopter Sword package instead of Tarmogoyfs as well a while back. After a while he stopped posting but you could dig his comments for more input regarding the matter.

I personally think that Tarmogoyf is enough.

[Julian23]

On a slightly unrelated topic, to those who attended this MCM event: were there any side events? What was the overall tournament experience like?

I just came across your post and would like to direct you to my MKM Rome Review on my website. It has pretty much info on everything you asked for

http://itsjulian.com/?p=1383

[Varal]

This comment got overlooked but I think it's worth discussing. I have not considered playing Mana Maze in the sideboard. I could see having at least one copy against combo. I would run it over Arcane Laboratory because it costs 2. The guys splashing W for MM probably wouldn't bother with this.

I guess the question to consider is: How much does it really hurt combo?
Mono-U Omni-tell was a big presence at a few recent events. Mana Maze would slow them down but not stop them from wishing for a Wipe Away.
ANT/TES would probably also have to bounce or AD it before they could go off with all their black spells.
It could stop Elves from having a big turn with Glimpse.
Burn could probably play around it by casting instants during your turn.

I think it could be problematic against Storm since they can play blue spells, artifact spells and even green spells between their black spells. Against Omni Tell it can slow down their development but it opens line such as Show and Tell, you can't counter it, into Omniscience cast Emrakul or cast sideboarded Pyroblast, Cunning Wish, Eladamri's Call, Emrakul.

[Whitefaces]

I think it could be problematic against Storm since they can play blue spells, artifact spells and even green spells between their black spells. Against Omni Tell it can slow down their development but it opens line such as Show and Tell, you can't counter it, into Omniscience cast Emrakul or cast sideboarded Pyroblast, Cunning Wish, Eladamri's Call, Emrakul.

Exactly. Unfortunately this is the line I got to as well...it's a cute little card, but isn't what we're looking for. I've trawled through Gatherer a few times with no luck. Can't there just be a 2CMC permanent in our colours that says 'You opponent can't go to school' :(

I had a nice little 4-0 at my LGS on Tuesday, playing against Necrotic Ooze reanimator, Dredge, DnT and RUG Delver. I didn't take notes I'm afraid and my memory is a little hazy, but I wanted to try a bunch of 1-ofs.

The Loam maindeck is in the 23rd land/Ponder slot and has really over-performed. The Tasigur, Clique and DTT I rarely drew, but I'm not particularly convinced. While his ability may be nice in the late game, Tasigur is just a worse goyf as Shardless usually make goyfs 5/6 or higher due to the multiple card types. Clique has been alright in the past, and it's nice to have a bit more stack interaction but ultimately it might not be needed. DTT...well, it can be backbreaking, but this probably isn't the deck for it.

I've moved away from MD discard a long time ago and not looked back, but I'm wondering with the rise of Omni Hymn could make a return. Strix has usually been in these slots but I'm unsure on how good it is currently, probably not very.

Apart from the Lotion Thief which is a bit of fun the SB was fantastic.

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Agent
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur

3 Liliana
2 Jace

4 Brainstorm
4 Vision
4 Decay
4 FoW
1 DTT
1 Loam

1 Sylvan Library

4 Delta
4 Verdant
1 Misty
1 Strand
3 Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
4 Waste
1 Swamp

SB
1 Scrubland
4 Meddling Mage
2 Leyline otV
1 Pithing Needle
1 Lotion Thief
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Night of Souls Betrayal

[btm10]

I've had a lot of success with this recently, and will likely play something similar at SCG Worcester:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Dig Through Time OR 1 Sylvan Library
1 Ponder

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Duress
3 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Force of Will
1 Krosan Grip

I'm considering cutting the second Tar Pit for a second Trop or mixing up the Bayou/Trop numbers to better accommodate Dig. Ponder is the very definition of average, but it does smooth things out; Sylvan has worked fine in that slot in almost all circumstances as well. These changes, along with the Meddling Mage sideboard package, have all seemed pretty equivalent in terms of performance. Honestly, the deck just feels very well positioned right now and has game against everything you need to have game against. I'm especially happy because of how much Grixis Pyromancer nonsense I've run into and how often people board in conditional cards like REB against me.

[DOM]

I would cut a Ponder for DTT/Sylvan Library.

Were there any problems in running three Wastelands and a Forest alongside 2 Hymn to Tourachs and other colourful spells? Cutting one of them for a 2nd Tropical Island seems like a safer approach.

[btm10]

I would cut a Ponder for DTT/Sylvan Library.

I've run that way and it doesn't make a huge difference. Ponder does help hold the manabase together in a way that Dig can't though.



Were there any problems in running three Wastelands and a Forest alongside 2 Hymn to Tourachs and other colourful spells? Cutting one of them for a 2nd Tropical Island seems like a safer approach.

Again, no. I board Hymn out in most non-combo matchups, so I'm seldom in need of thr most color intensive spells and extreme BG stability at the same time. The third Wasteland is invaluable against stuff like 12Post, MUD, and Lands while being a solid utility player against just about everything else.

[Mkr]

First time playing Legacy since I T4'd Super Sunday Legacy at GP Kyoto - got myself a nice Tundra by taking down a local tourney last weekend. Still using Lejay build; thought about replacing Leyline with a Containment Priest, but stuck with the basic list. Shardless is really strong right now multiple tops in 100+ attendance tournaments recently (but just not a FotM deck atm for some reason haha).

Round 1 vs Chalice Affinity (W 2-0)
First game Decays made sure that he was not able to get Ravager and Plating online which resulted in my Goyfs taking over. Post board Null Rod gave me a pseudo turn 2 win.

Round 2 vs Miracles (W 2-0)
I had all the answers (and then some) due to my insane CA. Second game I had a disruption heavy hand of two discards and a Needle. Stopping Top that early plus some Shardless Agents appearing equals an easy win.

Round 3 vs BUG Gro (L 1-2)
This is basically BUG Delver except using old school Gro star Quirion Dryad instead of Tarmogoyf, trading consistency/immunity to bolts for potential (Also had a pair of Lorescale Coatls - I would have liked to see some Chasm Skulkers though!). All three games I was down on lands due to timely Wastes. I made a mistake in life calculation during the third game which cost me the match. For some reason I thought I still had two more turns if I take 4 from Sylvan. Dumb haha.

Round 4 vs UWR Blade (W 2-1)
Two wins was due to Visions just ramping me way ahead. Lost a game to TNN going all the way and Library not being able to find me an answer.

Round 5 vs BUG Delver (W 2-1)
Unable to draw in, had to play this one out. First game he wins the Wasteland battle and I am unable to find a Decay to stabilize. Next two I basically Visioned him out of the game. I actually was able to cast 4 Visions on the third game (thought one was Forced and another one was on garbage time)!

Qf vs RUG Delver (W 2-1)
First game I took some early Delver beats but he didn't have a bolt so Deathrite went to work. Second game was classic RUG - I never even got to two mana. Third game he had a lot of disruption but no early clock - once I got to three mana safely it was all but over.

Sf vs BUG Gro (W 2-0)
Rematch! First game Quirion Dryad quickly grew bigger than my Goyf to 6/6 but got decayed. My Goyf got decayed too but I was able to CA him out. Second game was epic. I was able to snipe his tech Kira using Thoughtseize and he sniped back my Maelstrom Pulse - which was extremely relevant as he had 3 DRS out by the third turn! By the time he ran out of DRS damage fodder I was down to 8 life with my Goyf just dancing between 1/2 and 2/3. I wasn't able to do much due to Wastelands stranding walkers in my hand. I decay one DRS which brings me down to 6. Another blue cantrip was used and now I'm at 4. I had a decay in my hand but it was not yet time to use it. Luckily we both drew lands for two turns. Still not enough black mana for Lily but I was able to cast Jace. Did some bouncing around to make sure one DRS is summoning sick (if he topdecks a cantrip at that point I am likely dead). I decay the other DRS. With Jace now down his last loyalty counter I was finally ably to topdeck a fetch for the second black mana. Lily kills the last DRS and then Jace (fate)seals me the game.

F vs Elves (W 2-1)
First game I made a game ending misplay by being a zombie and suspending a Visions which made my Force impotent. Died to Natural Order two turns after. Second game Meddling Mage was able to stop Natural Order then NoSB + Toxic cleans it up. Third game I had a facepalm moment - my T2 he has Forest, Cradle, DRS, Heritage. My plan: Waste his Cradle, Needle the DRS. I play my land. Look down and see a fetchland instead. Wtf. Good thing I had a Force for his T3 NO kill. I waste his Cradle afterwards and then Goyf stomps.

[Whitefaces]

I've run that way and it doesn't make a huge difference. Ponder does help hold the manabase together in a way that Dig can't though.

Ponder is taking the place of the 23rd land, which Shardless does want (especially if you're running 4 waste), I wouldn't consider library or DTT to take that slot. I mentioned it earlier in the thread but I'll say it again, I've put Life from the Loam in this spot maindeck and it's worked wonders.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Does anyone know Tristan Polzl? Depending on which website you go to, his winning deck at Ovino had either 21 lands and a 13th creature (Moroii) or a 22nd land (Swamp) and the 12 usual suspects.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9680&d=255646&f=LE (without Moroii)

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/232473 (with)

21 lands seems a little risky/greedy?

[Baum]

It's a swamp. AFAIK he wrote is deck list in French. Swamp means marais in French and weird typos happened.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

An essay on Baleful Strix.... http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/372pob/to_strix_or_not_to_strix_in_shardless_bug/

A friend of ours?

[Whitefaces]

I don't agree with the article, Strix has great synergy with Toxic Deluge. Assuming we are only talking about creature matchups here it makes your opponent use a removal spell or try and go around it by overextending. It's also lovely curving Strix > Deluge > Jace.

The reason Strix isn't seeing much play at the moment is because the top decks are (arguably) Omni, Miracles and Storm, which it's pretty awful against. If I was playing at an SCG open I'd happily play 2-3 as I'd expect a lot of Delver decks, but in Europe or Japan it's a coin flip on whether you'll face one of those decks or Delver/Infect (which it's great against, obviously).

On another note I came 9th on breakers at the UK Eternal Legacy Championship (roughly 100 players), slightly annoying but it was a fun tournament. A friend came first with Infect. I'll try and find time to write up a small report and decklist.

[dionykos]

I'm surprised to see no mention of True-Name Nemesis in this article. Before the rise of TC/DTT and Omni, the merfolk was the reason why Strix started to see less play.

[kiad]

Hi guys, I'm new enough to Legacy but I've been playing variations of Shardless for about the last 6 months or so. I'm loving reading back through this threads to see all the different lines of play. I would however like to throw out one card I have been playing in this deck recently enough that has been working quite well for me and that's Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. It's quite a troublesome card against multiple types of decks. First off it comes out as early as turn 2 and immediately goes to 5 loyalty, which is no joke. Secondly her mill ability, while great against creature decks, can also severely disrupt combo decks by taking their win-cons or by negating their Brainstorms. As a 1 of in the Ponder/Library slot this little planeswalker has never not swung games in my favor and while I've not been able to use her to cast an Emrakul yet....it is a very real possibility.

[hobart]

I played in one Legacy side event at GP Las Vegas. I decided on Shardless. Tinkered a bunch with the list in the weeks leading up, and ended up making a last minute change of removing Tasigur and adding a Sylvan Library. It's not that Tasigur was terrible in testing, it just hardly seemed better than any other gas I could draw, and did sometimes either be uncastable or get bounced by a Karakas. A while ago I moved the Baleful Strixes to be board and I'm liking them there. They are great against delver, and pretty good against midrange mirrors, but I'm seeing less and less of those lately, and more combo and Miracles, so I ditched them to make room for some thoughtseizes.

Creatures: 12

4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman

Spells: 22

4x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will
3x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Dig Through Time
1x Sylvan Library

PlanesWalkers: 4

2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Lands: 22

4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
3x Wasteland
1x Swamp
1x Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard: 15

2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Golgari Charm
2x Chill
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Submerge
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Baleful Strix
1x Toxic Deluge

Round 1 vs Burn: 2-1
Super lucky here, between both game wins he only drew one PoP and it got forced. Super low both games, and had to fade a draw step at 2 life to win one of them. I lose this 80% of the time at least.

Round 2 vs DnT: 1-1-1
He had all the right lock pieces, including his singleton Spirit of the Labryinth which happened to shut off about half the cards I saw game 1. At the start of game 2 I thought we were falling behind on time and I told him we should pick up the pace. He disagreed and continued to play game 2 and 3 slow as balls, leading to the draw. I despise draws, and with BUG I'm always in a dominating board state when they happen.

Round 3 vs BUG delver: 2-0
He gets off to a quick delver + confidant start, but can't keep me that backed up on mana and I stabilize at 2 life with a Toxic Deluge and a winning counter war. Roll over him game 2. This matchup is cake.

Round 4 vs Merfolk: 2-0
Another easy matchup, plus he had slower than average starts for his deck. I never really felt threatened in either game.

Round 5 vs Omnitell: 2-1
Game 1 he gets a turn 3 Show and Tell for Emrykul with force backup, gg. Game 2 I land a hymn that gets Show and Tell, then I surgical it, then he concedes. Game 3 I land another hymn that gets a critical land of his, mana screwing him such that a goyf is able to get there.

So, I pretty much crushed this event going 4-0-1 and I was damn pleased. 3 out of 5 decks I played being fair is way enough to justify playing this "king" of fair decks. I got real lucky against burn and combo, but really any deck I was even considering to play would have gotten crushed by burn just as bad. I think I settled on the right build for me.

[Kirika]

Ran this at my local event this past weekend going 3-0-1 split top 4. Beat High Tide, Mono Red Sneak and Reanimator and IDed with Jeskai Delver.

Trying Thoughtseize instead of the 4th Force and 4th Visions which was a good decision this week as played all combo.
Run Basics because of mono red sneak and painter with bloodmoon and burn decks.
Might add Dig through Time back instead of Sylvan to raise blue count but I really didn't like it shrinking my Tarmogoyfs and eating my Deathrite food when Sylvan Library has better synergy with the deck with the ability to set up cascades and improve card quality.
Dunno if I like 2 Tar pits might make the second one another Fetch since opening with 2 tar pits is pretty terrible but they are good alternate threats and help out if choke resolves.

Black (7)
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Blue (12+5 multi color)
3 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Green (5)
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf

Multicolor (14)
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Shardless Agent

Lands (22)
1 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Chill
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

[Krimson Viper]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar-Pit
2 Wasteland

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
2 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Force of Will
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

This is what I plan on running for my next deck. My stores are filled with Infect, Miracles using Stoneforge Mystic, version(s) of Storm(usually one player with different builds), Esper Stoneblade, Tezz Control, and BUG Delver decks. I'm not sure how to build my deck or its sideboard, so I went with a very basic build. Any and all help will be appreciated.

*made some changes since last night

[jim111589]

So I just switched to this from jund and I'm about ready to try it in a local tournament. Which version of this would do well against a field of omni, miricles and bug delver?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Holiday]

@krimson the list looks solid. Aside from the Storm deck, your meta looks like a bunch of "fair" decks which should be good for you. I would probably want a second Liliana in my maindeck.

I like the double Null Rod in your SB. Having a Pithing Needle might also help your SB. I would bring it out against the Stoneblade, Miracles, and Tezz control.
What decks do you board in the TNNs and Jitte against? What do you take out?

[Krimson Viper]

@krimson the list looks solid. Aside from the Storm deck, your meta looks like a bunch of "fair" decks which should be good for you. I would probably want a second Liliana in my maindeck.

I like the double Null Rod in your SB. Having a Pithing Needle might also help your SB. I would bring it out against the Stoneblade, Miracles, and Tezz control.
What decks do you board in the TNNs and Jitte against? What do you take out?
Jitte would be for the random Burn deck that shows up every now and again. He switches between Junk, Esper Stoneblade, and Burn. There's a random Jund deck there as well, which is what TNN would come in against, but TNN was just a random thought. I saw Jund shred Shardless BUG in a match because Punishing Fire and Abrupt Decay kept the board clear.

I saw some talk about Tasigur being used, but I don't see the conclusion? Maybe I'm blind, but it seems OK-great against fellow control decks. I could drop it for a Needle or additional Storm hate.

[Holiday]

I tested Tasigur in Shardless. The problem with him is his delve cost competes with Goyf and DS for graveyard resources. On paper it looks like it wouldn't be a big deal but in practice he ended up shrinking goyf and DS fuel.

Jund is a pain in the butt. Bring in Surgical Extraction and target their Punishing Fire when they can't respond. Burn is another pain in the butt. You can try to run Chill but personally I rather have the SB slots devoted to other more winable macthups.

[Whitefaces]

The biggest problem I found with Tasigur is he's pretty bad vs goyfs. Because we have agents goyfs are usually 5/6 or bigger which he doesn't stack very well up against.

[Kirika]

Past weekend went 2-0-2 split top 4 with the same list I posted earlier.
1-1-1 Draw vs Death and Taxes
Don't like death and taxes the match up can be pretty grindy and can be just annoying with them locking you out on mana or mother of runes blanking your removal and you dying in short order. Disfigure and Golgari charm help but is pretty grindy all around. Mirran Crusaders are a problem. Might want a second Deluge.

Win 2-1 vs Infect
Needle really helped against Inkmoth after board. Games went longer and no turn 2 kills. One game he got me with an Inkmoth the turn before I had lethal. Gets much better after board with Disfigure and Needle for Inkmoth.

Win 2-0 vs BG loam Pox
Was able to keep hitting lands, drawing cards and win eventually. 3 basics plus 2 Spell bomb were MVP. Although cursed scroll almost got me one game.

ID with Grixis Delver.
We played for fun and I won game 1 and he won game 2 burning me out. seems pretty even with edge going to who ever got first turn. He has a problem killing Goyfs while we have issues killing Angler/Tasigur. Extra Pulse in board is good here but isn't the easiest to resolve.

Split Top 4.


I tested Tasigur in Shardless. The problem with him is his delve cost competes with Goyf and DS for graveyard resources. On paper it looks like it wouldn't be a big deal but in practice he ended up shrinking goyf and DS fuel.

Jund is a pain in the butt. Bring in Surgical Extraction and target their Punishing Fire when they can't respond. Burn is another pain in the butt. You can try to run Chill but personally I rather have the SB slots devoted to other more winable macthups.

I found I did not like Delve spells in Shardless at all be it Tasigur or Dig Through Time. If your opponent is using delve spells as well this leads to some small goyfs and limited deathrite food. Tasigur's ability can be good in long drawn out games though. Tasigur is pretty embarrassing against any decks running Karakas where you delve to play Tasigur and he just get bounced.


So I just switched to this from jund and I'm about ready to try it in a local tournament. Which version of this would do well against a field of omni, miricles and bug delver?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Versus Omni you want maindeck discard like Thoughtseize/Hymm to Torach with more discard and Arcane Lab or the white splash for Meddling Mage on Show and Tell in the board.

Miracles you want Sylvan Library, Creeping Tar Pit (kills Jace) and Maelstrom Pulse (kills jace and their angels) main deck and both Null Rod and Pithing Needle side board (stops Sensei's Divining Top) . Deck is pretty good against miracles with abrupt decay to kill counter balance and so much card advantage.

BUG Delver you really want disfigures in the board to kill Delver and Dark confidant and having the full 4 Ancestral Visions and Sylvan library for more card advantage is good. Creeping Tar Pits are kinda bad here so if you see lots of bug delver might want to run no Tar Pits but if you see Miracles Tar pit is good so maybe run just one. I been running 2 and might go back to just one.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar-Pit
2 Wasteland

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
2 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Force of Will
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

This is what I plan on running for my next deck. My stores are filled with Infect, Miracles using Stoneforge Mystic, version(s) of Storm(usually one player with different builds), Esper Stoneblade, Tezz Control, and BUG Delver decks. I'm not sure how to build my deck or its sideboard, so I went with a very basic build. Any and all help will be appreciated.

*made some changes since last night

Your list seems pretty solid. Looks like someone else likes basic lands other then me.

I would run a Pithing Needle instead of a second Null Rod or Tasigur. Pithing Needle stops planeswalkers and Inkmoth Nexus and is playable turn 1 versus Miracles turn 1 top.

Skeptical about True-Name Nemesis in the board. True-Name is fairly underwhelming without Equipment or Lords. Don't think it is particularly good against Jund because they run Liliana and Golgari Charm in the board. What other match up would you board in True-name?

I found Chill to work better then Jitte against the burn match up since the burn player can burn the creature you equip Jitte to unless it is Goyf. Also some burn players bring in Smash to Smitherings to hit your Shardless Agents which also hits Jitte. Burn is very winable with Chill and you have 3 Basics to fetch and get early Goyf really helps. Chill also is good versus Mono Red Sneak Attack.

Nihil Spellbomb is good versus Punishing Fire while also hampering Delve spell playing opponents and dredge. Surgical is better against Punishing Fire specifically since it gets rid of all of them but is less good against other decks.

[Krimson Viper]

I have been looking at DTT and questioning whether I should be running it or having the fourth Force MD instead of the board to combat combo some more. Even running just a singleton, I already have so much card advantage from Ancestral and Brainstorm. Maybe that DDT slot can be a second Jace or Lili? What do you guys think?

I see your point about TNN not being great against Jund. I don't know what else to use it against, so I guess ill take him out for two Chill? Doesn't Arcane Lab sort of replace Chill though? I kind of want to keep the Null Rod at two because there's two Tezz and an occasional Affinity player. It also helps battle against Storm by stopping LED, Petal, Belcher and acts as a catch all for them. TNN removal for Pithing?

I like the thought of Jitte in the deck. It can come in against D&T to kill any creature with an active Mom if there's counters on it. It helps my Goyf eat other Goyfs, closes out the games faster when attached to Agent. Am I wanting to live a dream here?

I also like the thought of Tasigur. Against other grinding games, he produces more CA, and can bring back miser copies. Against control, I feel as though it also allows me to stay as the aggressor. I think I will keep Tasigur and Jitte in and make the rest of your suggestions and see how the deck performs so I can have a feel for it. Thank you guys!

[Fox]

Given ETB of Stryx and cascade of Shardless, isn't Rite of Undoing a better fit than DTT? Doubles as Murderous Cut (hitting any nonland perm) with any discard effect as well.

[ironclad8690]

DTT finds things you need. The only condition is that you must have some cards in your yard. Rites of Undoing usually only helps when you are ahead anyways (with a Shardess on board, for example). Returning a Goyf or DRS to your hand isn't backbreaking or anything like that, but Rites isn't quite on the same level of power that DTT is.

[Whitefaces]

Given ETB of Stryx and cascade of Shardless, isn't Rite of Undoing a better fit than DTT? Doubles as Murderous Cut (hitting any nonland perm) with any discard effect as well.

If you have to pair it with a Thoughtseize it's not really doubling as a Murderous Cut, is it? And if you mean Liliana then that's negated if they have any other cards in hand. Rite seems completely different to DTT.

I've found the delve cards (Tasi and DTT) unnecessary. Obviously they're powerful, but they don't really bring anything needed to the deck - we have so much CA already. And unlike tempo decks we're not wanting to burn through cantrips and fill the GY, the best Brainstorm is the one not played in Shardless. I'd prefer to have a streamlined deck where I can cast my cards on time.

This is what I have together at the moment. Clique, Hymns and SB K Grip are concessions to Omni.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Ancestral Vision
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB
1 Scrubland
4 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls Betrayal
1 Krosan Grip

[RiverBoa]

I only picked this deck up about 3 months ago, but agree that the delve spells aren't worth it. this list I've been finding to be the most successful over the past few weeks. my local meta is lots of delver mostly grixis but we have all flavors, miracles, few snt decks, few blade lists, then random stuff

4 drs
4 goyf
4 agent
2 strix

4 bstorm
4 vision
4 decay
3 force
2 thoughtsieze
2 hymn
2 lili
2 jace
1 deluge

4 catacombs
3 misty
2 delta
3 sea
2 trop
2 waste
2 creepypit
1 bayou
1 savannah
1 forest
1 swamp

sb:
4 mage
2 thoughtseize
2 disfigure
2 charm
1 sylvan
1 rod
1 needle
1 pulse
1 cage/spellbomb

sb mileage may vary but I can see argument for loam/clique/nosb/grip

I personally like the cheap action

[janchu88]

hey folks,

been testing a lot in the past few weeks and here is my current state of development... and below some thoughts and explanations.

Creatures

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix

Instant and Sorceries

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Ancestral Vision

Planeswalker

3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands

2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard

3 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Iona, Shield of Emeria

I played some Leejay build before and did pretty average with it. First of all i felt pretty weak in all tempo Matchups due to having wastelands and an overload for Decay Targets. Even if u dont play strix and hymn, adding wastelands makes it even easier to cut u off from certain colors, whereas wastelands do miserable against all those daze decks. Who am I to judge Leejay, absolutely no one, im just speaking about my personal experiences! Additionally I felt like there wasnt enough cardadvantage going on anymore, without strix, without hymn, etc it all comes down to visions only. So I went a more traditional Route and brought Strixes and Hymn back, which aligns perfectly with the changed manabase. Additionally Strix is Great against all kind of Delver decks. At this point it was a pretty classic list, only the 2 deluges Main were some kind of novelty towards the older Lists. I really feel very comfortable in the "fair" matchups with this Setup. Even after Game 1 there is not much boarding required. People may argue that strix and deluge isnt great in the same 60, but in my experience there is no problem at all. Strix ofter buys time in early game stages, gives a suitable anwser to fatties and Delver, and even if u have to deluge it to death, it replaced itself. And i love seeing my Strix being decayed or bolted, which happens really often, thats one more goyf surviving or 3 damage less to the face.

After that i went full retard on the sideboard, No, i am not talking about Iona...yet... First of all I was testing a full playset of Leyline of the Void. I felt like Reanimator and especially Lands (which really seems to be thing right now) are close to unwinnable Matchups. Well, with the Playset of Lotv this changed. Colleteral damage was done to the obvious, even if not that relevant Matchup Dredge, but nethertheless i didnt lose against ANT Storm since then. If you shut down their Graveyard and bring in the Full Discard Package, plus the 4 forces that already are in the Mainboard, ANT is having a really hard time to get anything going. So Through 4 SB Slots i could massively improve 4 pretty bad Matchups. The only problem i had, Playing Leyline and Tarmogoyf really eats up some velocity. Since there are close to 0 Karakas in the current Meta, i added two copies of tasigur to the maindeck and cut one goyf. So far im really happy about that change, having a more graveyard independent clock is awesome and he can generate some lategame value as well. Especially as 95%of the Meta seem to play DTT and leave no fuel for Goyf regularly. Most of the times i can cast Tasigur for one Mana anyway - and hes Decay proof which is nice in the BUG Matchup as well.

As i said before, i was fine with the fair Matchups so far, through the Leylines 3 Combo Matchups + Lands significantly improved. So i had 11 SB Slots left, i dedicated three of them to Thoughtseize, just to be able to board in that more precise discard if neccesary. The Hymns in the maindeck are good against combo as well to a certain degree, but they are primarily in the maindeck to generate card advantage.

8 SB Slots left. I needed some Silver bullet against elves, even though i have 2 main deluges thats not enough since they are able to recover too damn quick. So i added 2 Engineered Plagues, which are obviously great against any kind of tribal deck, but i also board it in regularly against all kind of Pyromancer abusing decks. Depending of the board state u can either name human, which turns down Pyromancer and unflipped delvers as well, if the army already arised you can name elemental, and many of those decks do play some TNN as well. Having more anwsers for TNN then 2 Deluges is always great. At this point there are 6 Slots left.

The rational way to approach this now, would be adding meddling mages + scrubland, which looks great against Omnitell for example. But after some testing i discovered pretty quickly that they have tons of ways to play around Meddling Mage and the Matchup still sucks even if you bring in all the possible hate. Either way u do it, naming cunning wish or SnT, they always find a way to play around... At this point i really went full retard and i am testing Iona right now. Most Omnitell Players expect cards like meddling mage and board hate against it, Iona naming blue on the other hand can just win u games straight away. It isnt a free win this way neither, and sometimes they see it in time through their Probes, but it is by far the best possibilty to improve this Matchup i found so far. Sure, they can Still SnT into Emrakul, but this doesnt neccesarily mean a loss, u still have liliana´s -2 or if u have enough permanents even a strix can block Emrakul to death... Even in case they saw Iona before, as long as it means that they wont go off SnT cause they dont have Emrakul im fine with that anyway. I know, this choice looks completely stupid, but Omnitell is a big thing right now, and simply by hoping to avoid it aint the best plan. If you have any opinions on this, even i u think this is completely stupid, feel free to share them.

So there were 2 Slots left, i thought Krosan Grip might be a useful addition against Miracles and all kind of Equipment decks. Maybe a split with Null rod would be doing great in this slot, would help against MUD as well. Anyway i feel pretty confident against mud anyway.

Its late, ive been playing magic all day long, if my text is hard to read im sorry, im just tired and wanted to share my 0,02$ ;)

PS: just a random thought at the end, the increased Creature Count also feels great against all kind of control decks like miracles cause u dont run out of creatures so quickly

[Holiday]

Anyone going to GP Lille?

In a sick way I'm hoping all the top 8 are running DTT.
This causes Wizards to ban it.

Don't get me wrong I do like playing DTT, just not in this deck or against a deck running it.

[Ancestral]

Anyone going to GP Lille?

In a sick way I'm hoping all the top 8 are running DTT.
This causes Wizards to ban it.

Don't get me wrong I do like playing DTT, just not in this deck or against a deck running it.

exactly my thougts! i play DTT mysefl and find it very unbalanced! hope the ban happen soon!

[DOM]

I do not mind DTT being available, though its ban would bring the power back to Chains of Mephistopheles (and discard), thus making my another deck Jund more powerful, so I will be happy either way. Anyway, when the next B&R announcement is going to happen?

[LarsLeif]

I do not mind DTT being available, though its ban would bring the power back to Chains of Mephistopheles (and discard), thus making my another deck Jund more powerful, so I will be happy either way. Anyway, when the next B&R announcement is going to happen?

Each B&R announcement happens in concert with new sets being released, so next announcement will be on July 13.

[wnorris]

So are many people back on Shardless right now? It seems decent time post TC. Our combo game is weak but not unwinnable, and we have a great miracles match up. I've been having pretty good success lately.

[janchu88]

so, finally returned from GP Lille, was some kind of journey cause we drove by car (approx 900km one direction).

Anyway... Played Shardless and went 7-0-2 Day 1 and 10-0-5 Overall resulting in Place 107 out of 1573.

This was was the list i finally settled for the evening before the main Event. Tried different completely different things at the Trials, but none of them worked out as they should.

Maindeck:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
1 Disfigure

3 Ancestral Vision
4 Thoughtseize

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:

1 Surgical Extraction
4 Meddling Mage
1 Scrubland
1 Null Rod
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague

Those were the Matchups i played, wrote them down after each match:

Round 1: ANT - Won 2:1
Round 2: ANT - Won 2:1
Round 3: BUG Delver - Won 2:0
Round 4: Miracles - Lost 1:2
Round 5: ANT - Won 2:1
Round 6: Miracles - Lost 0:2
Round 7: Grixis Delver - Won 2:1
Round 8: Omnitell - Won 2:1
Round 9: Omnitell - Won 2:1

Ended day 1 with 7-0-2

Round 10: Burg Delver - Lost 0:2
Round 11: Infect - Lost 0:2
Round 12: Sneak Show - Lost 1:2
Round 13: Goblins - Won 2:1
Round 14: Elves - Won 2:0
Round 15: BUG Delver - Won 2:1

Ended with 10-0-5 on 107th.

Could tell stories about nearly every Round, but im too tired and going to bed soon... 2 Things I´d like to add anyway. Day 2 I lost every single dice roll, which definetely isnt the best way to get through the rounds , but thats just more a nice to know information then whining :D

Having lost twice to miracles simply was my fault, i wasnt sure how to board and piloted it straight against the wall. One specific Game ended up with some bad luck as i cascaded 3 times into abrupt decay onto an empty Board, even my opponent admitted that he won that game by luck only since he even was in topdeck mode, but anyway - All in all it was a major piloting error by me, cause i boarded wrong and didnt have enough experience in the specific Matchup. Learn to recognize weak spots and deal with them, i need more training in that specific Matchup...

having no Wasteland, but only 21 lands including basics felt very smooth. The only Matchup where i was missing the wastelands was Infect, but the Strix is super strong in this Matchup as well - if u find any... ;)

The Combo Matchups were pretty solid as well, playing 4 Hymns, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Mages and a surgical postboard... who wouldve guessed. In fact i was on the road to victory Round 12, Game 3 against Sneak Show as well (Which wouldve resulted in all combo Matchups Won), but sometimes ur simply not meant to win. I kept a hand of double thoughtseize double Mage, thoughtseized him twice, played the Mages on Sneak Attack and Show and Tell, Found even a third one and played it on Pyroblast cause i saw some Game 2, and on his last turn before the mages woudl have pinged him to death, after he had been idling for several turns (not even cantripping, he had only dead handcards) he topdecked through the breach and emrakul knocked me to death. Well, thats Magic i guess :laugh:

Against all the Tempo decks, i went straight for the basics first to deny Wastelands, and dodged all bloodmoons possible from red decks - it worked out 95% of the time and they ended up with dead handcards, cause especially BUG Delver Decks like to keep Wasteland heavy hands and ends up with more or less dead handcards, at least it heavily disturbs their game plan and if u have DRS its even better. From that point of view i was really doing fine.

The Jitte in the Main simply won me some games on its own, even if its only a random one off, against all kind of aggro, delver, pyromancer stuff it is simply a bomb if it connects once. And it even gives u a slight - even if not big - chance to stand a chance even against burn (Beaten Burn in the trials). Really loved the Jitte! The library as well allowed me to go over the top in some games, sadly i couldnt get it online in the most important matchups like miracles. But anyway, its an absolutely great card in this 60 i think. Abuse it to setup cascades, find pieces and if u want to steamroll ur opponent draw some cards as well.

as i said the list felt really smooth and ill have further tries on it and focus a little on training the miracles Matchup. My intention was to improve my maindeck configuration against all kind of Tempo decks, that used to steamroll me with the usual jace, Deluge, wasteland builts, before i could stabilize the game. This all came at the price of sacrificing some lategamepower, which nevertheless still is quite awesome. If there was one card i really feared and lost againt the most times, it was Dig Through Time. I had several games where i brought my enemy into the sweet spot (Topdeck mode, no relevant boardstate and Liliana on my Side) and a single DTT from the Top simply changed gears, its just annoying, but there is nothing u can really do about it. You either have the Force or u just dont... sadly enough.

So far the short resume of my GP impressions!

[hobart]

Last weekend I participated in a 32 person SCG IQ and Shardless came through again.

The Deck:

Creatures: 12

4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman

Spells: 21

4x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will
3x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Sylvan Library

PlanesWalkers: 5

3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Lands: 22

4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
3x Wasteland
1x Swamp
1x Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard: 15

2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Golgari Charm
2x Chill
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Submerge
2x Baleful Strix
1x Toxic Deluge


My most recent builds had a single Tasigur and a single Dig Through Time, both of which have been dropped. I think a lot of people around here are realizing the same thing I did that delving just for some card quality or a beatstick just isn't worth it. We've got better card quality, better beatsticks, and better card advantage tools. Besides, we want to keep our deck as business dense as possible. I'm a bit scared of ANT and Show and Tell, so I found it necessary to make room for 3 whole Thoughtseizes on top of the standard 4 Force of Wills. As a result the great Baleful Strix shows up only in the sideboard, as it's too good against the ever-present delver decks to leave home without.

0-0
Round 1 vs Burn: Game 1 turn 1 I get Lavaspiked ouch. Pretty hopeless matchup right from the start and ofcourse I've got the double Thoughtseize draw. I use one on my turn 1 to maybe save a point or two of damage. It reveals a bunch of lands with fireblast and a lightning bolt, so I'm lucky he got a bad hand. I take the blast and he can't draw enough gas to kill me. Game 2 I drop a Chill turn 2 and he get's stalled on 2 lands the whole game, never casting another spell, GG. I know I'm running good when I beat burn first round of my last two sactioned events . 2-0

1-0
Round 2 vs Esper Control brew: This guy's deck is interesting, as it is playing counterbalance, top, jace, Phyrexian dreadnaught, Stifle, and Hushwing Gryff. Turns out abrupt decay is a beating against this deck, especailly when you hit the gryff with it in response to Dreadnaught on the stack. 2-0

2-0
Round 3 vs 4 Color Delver w/ stifles: Game 1 seems easy, as he's forced to use his Stifles on my Ancestral Visions and I get to fetch my lands freely. I one for one all his threats and then my Planeswalkers take over. Game 2 I have not much action, but he drops no threats turn 1 and I force of will his turn 2 Young Pyromancer, then resolve my turn 2 Sylvan Library. The game was still close, but it came down to me using Golgari Charm (only card in hand) to regenerate my Tarmogoyf in response to Murderous Cut (his only card in hand after a brainstorm). He was stunned and then goyf beat face for the win. 2-0

3-0
Round 4 vs Mud: ID. We play 2 games for fun and I get crushed.

3-0-1
Round 5 vs Elves: ID. We play 2 games for fun and I get crushed.

3-0-2
Good enough for 3rd place in the final standings, on to Top 8. I make it known that I have no intention of prize splitting at any point during the elimination rounds.

Round 1 vs Elves: Same guy I drew with earlier. Game 1 I can't keep up with the threats and he Natural Order's turn 3 for a Ruric Thar that I cannot answer. This time I get to sideboard though, and after sideboard I'm basically wrath.dec with 2x Golgari Charm, 2x Toxic Deluge, 3x Liliana, 4x Abrupt decay. In each of the next two games I wrath his board a few times, and drop the Grafdigger's cage to seal the deal.

Round 2 vs Death and Taxes: Game 1 he's on the play and gets the Vial, Wasteland, Thalia draw and just runs me over. After Sideboard I once again transform into wrath.dec and the matchup becomes much harder for him. In game 2 it was like turn 1 Mother of Runes, Turn 2 Thalia, Turn 3 Mangara of Condor right into my EOT Golgari charm then drop Jace into empty board, so sick. Game 3 more of the same slaughtering of small white creatures.

Round 3 vs Mud: Same guy I drew with earlier. Game 1 I'm developing a pretty sweet board with DRS, Lili, and Jace, but then Ugin comes down and totally turns the game around with a wipe of my board. I realized at this point that my sideboard is not equipped for this matchup, and I don't really have any good options (Nullrod, maybe Hymn, maybe maybe Pithing Needle), and I really don't want take anything out. I end up taking out some thoughtseizes and the Toxic Deluge which ends up being a mistake, as game 2 is long and drawn out with him having a bunch of threats that I can only really deal with one at a time. I maybe could've won the game if I had toxic deluge still in the deck.

So, 2nd place overall, and I was pretty dissapointed. I came in expecting to win, and I had convinced myself I was going to, but MUD was the best deck in the room, and he knew how to play it. The thoughtseizes seem to be the weak link this time around, and they were sideboarded out every match, but it's not like I knew I wouldn't be facing any combo decks this tourney. Maybe if I went to another event at this location I'd jam those strixes back in and move the discard to the sideboard. Live and learn.

[btm10]

I've been back and forth between Shardless and various Delver decks recently, but I think I've found a very robust sideboard plan for the combo matchup. Let me know what you guys think.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard

3 Leyline of the Void
2 Duress
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Disfigure
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

The typical sideboard plan for Omni and Storm is:

-4 Tarmogoyf
-4 Abrupt Decay
-1 Baleful Strix
-1 Toxic Deluge
-1 Maelstrom Pulse

+2 Duress
+2 Hymn to Tourach
+2 Sphere of Resistance
+1 In the Eye of Chaos (Omni)/Null Rod (Storm)
+1 Golgari Charm
+3 Leyline of the Void

The Leyline count is flexible- against Omni you definitely want all three, but for ANT/TES I prefer 1-2 since they usually go for a Past in Flames kill, but it's a terrible topdeck before you've gotten into grinding mode if you don't open on it. If I'm bringing fewer Leylines in, I start by bringing in In the Eye of Chaos instead, then I add Strix back, and finally a Goyf if zero Leylines seems right. The basic idea is that you want all of your cascades in postboard games to either be disruption (Hymn, Thoughtseize, Duress, Sphere, Null Rod) or draw you into disruption (Vision, Brainstorm). You can still hit Deathrite, and while it's a suboptimal hit in most cases, you need the acceleration, he's a clock, and he provides additional disruption by picking at their yard. Golgari Charm is also an optional inclusion, but it handles the various sideboard man plans while killing Xantid Swarm and blowing up Omniscience.

[LarsLeif]

Why not meddling mage? It just seems more powerful across more matchups. Leylines are sweet, but agaisnt omni specifically you almost need to have them in your opening hand for them to be good. I think.

[btm10]

Why not meddling mage? It just seems more powerful across more matchups. Leylines are sweet, but agaisnt omni specifically you almost need to have them in your opening hand for them to be good. I think.

Spreading the five SB slots taken by Meddling Mages + Savannah (and I've seen some lists with seven white slots, adding Swords and Ethersworn Cannonist as singletons) out covers more matchups more fully and does so without giving up a sideboard slot for a Land, supporting a fourth color postboard, or making your sideboard cards vulnerable to creature removal. The only matchup where I've ever thought Meddling Mage was the bee's knees is Miracles, and I have no interest in effectively dedicating five sideboard slots to that matchup, even if those slots have acceptable utility in other matchups. Sphere and Mage have exactly the same effect against Omni - each forces them to go off in a roundabout way - but In the Eye of Chaos has a similar effect while also being an asymmetric bomb against other blue decks. As for Leyline - it's true that it's a lousy topdeck against Omni, but so are Planar Void and Nihil Spellbomb after turn 2-3 (when they cast their first Dig). So you end up trading the ability to cycle and extract marginal midgame value by maybe slowing down a second pre-combo Dig for random blowouts (Leyline is extremely powerful in an opening hand) and raising the probability that your Cascades find the real business.

[Lifeloss]

Hello ya'll with not a shard to call your own! This is the list I have been running with very good success in both 2-mans on MODO as well as (very competitive) FNMs:

* Some interesting notes!: 23 lands due to a lot of land destruction in meta (local meta has 8 or 9 top 8-scg open players, pretty great scene to level-up in!). One Jace is due to REB being so prevalent and is a decision that has really performed. Hitting your land drops cannot be overstated. If you lose with this deck, you lost with five cards in your hand and an Ancestral suspended.

Lands: (23)
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest

Creatures: (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

Non-Creature Spells: (23)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of t he Veil
2 Thoughtseize
3 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard: (15)
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Disfigure
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night (complete swing slot)

*** Sideboard Notes ***
Leyline of the Void has been a complete all-star lately. You don't bring it in against decks that have only two digs, but you bring it in against the heavy delvers. It also obviously pulls duty against Storm, Lands, Aggro Loam, Re-Animator, Dredge, etc.

the Dread of Night is a swing slot, it's been good against DnT, Maverick and the Mentor Control lists popping up.

the Pithing needle can be a second Null Rod if you find yourself playing against a lot of Storm (or not Knight of Reliquary/ Mom/ Wasteland decks)

*** ***

Really performed for me going 16-2 (matches) in the last two days on MODO as well as 4-0, 3-1, 2-2 (extreme pilot error 'ok' (spell resolved), and a combo loss [imo virtual 3-1]) in the last 3 local events.

[jim111589]

Hey all. I have the stuff to build this and the delver version but I'm torn on which I should play. We only get one legacy tourny a month here so I can't get consistent practice. My meta is pretty all over the place now. 2-4 miricles, 2-3 omni, American delver, 4 color delver, 2-3 dnt 3-4 merfolk, esper deathblade bug delver, shardless, 2 jund and others I can't remember off the top.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[LarsLeif]

Spreading the five SB slots taken by Meddling Mages + Savannah (and I've seen some lists with seven white slots, adding Swords and Ethersworn Cannonist as singletons) out covers more matchups more fully and does so without giving up a sideboard slot for a Land, supporting a fourth color postboard, or making your sideboard cards vulnerable to creature removal. The only matchup where I've ever thought Meddling Mage was the bee's knees is Miracles, and I have no interest in effectively dedicating five sideboard slots to that matchup, even if those slots have acceptable utility in other matchups. Sphere and Mage have exactly the same effect against Omni - each forces them to go off in a roundabout way - but In the Eye of Chaos has a similar effect while also being an asymmetric bomb against other blue decks. As for Leyline - it's true that it's a lousy topdeck against Omni, but so are Planar Void and Nihil Spellbomb after turn 2-3 (when they cast their first Dig). So you end up trading the ability to cycle and extract marginal midgame value by maybe slowing down a second pre-combo Dig for random blowouts (Leyline is extremely powerful in an opening hand) and raising the probability that your Cascades find the real business.

I won't say that you are wrong in your assessments, but some notes on what you wrote:

1. Meddling Mage being vulnerable to creature removal is often a moot point as most combo list pack very few cards with that type of effect and meddling mage isn't meant to be an unanswerable threat/lockpeice, but is there to slow the opposing deck down enough for you to get your game going.

2. I think meddling mage has a lot of "bees-nees matchups", but I have never boarded it against miracles and probably never will. It surprises me that you think it is a good card against a deck with terminus, plows, REBs and monastery mentor/snapcaster mage. Haven't tested them though, so that is only my on paper-impression. An important factor overall with the MM-package is that you diversify your hate. Running too much discard makes combo-decks that can topdeck their way out of situations a bad matchup for example.

3. The extra land is pretty useful against decks that attack the manabase like D&T, Delver and Lands/4c Loam, so I wouldn't call it a wasted slot exactly.

[Lifeloss]

Hey ya'll. Just picked up top 8 in a ~60 person legacy tournament with Shardless. A pretty good possibility for an even stronger finish but first match in the top 8 I gave myself a game loss for having golgari charm maindeck against DnT. I'll post a deck list as well as mini-tourney report. 23 lands including 3 basics was amazing all day, tombstalker was amazing all day. Rational is if I'm going to take power away from the tarmogoyfs, I'm going to at least have a flying goyf out of the deal (as opposed to dig). He's also bad against white like Tarmo, so he goes out for the second clique in a lot of those match ups. We don't want to be graveyard-centric in Rest in Peace matchups.

Main:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Wll
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Baleful Strix
1 Dig Through Time
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Tombstalker
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Disfigure
2 Night of Soul’s Betrayal
2 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

===============

Round 1: vs Miracles on the draw

My opponent has top 8'd multiple SCG Opens. Solid player, good guy. I was pleased to see Miracles as I think it's a good matchup.

Game One, I had no lands and shipped to 6. Two lands, Deathrite, Shardless, Brainstorm, Ancestral.
Turn 1 deathrite got plowed. turn 2 he put a top out I suspended visions. turn 3 I played a shardless into a brainstorm, my opponent plowed away my agent. Turn 4 Opponent throws down a Jace, I do not draw an answer. A few more turns roll by and I'm just further under Jace, so I decide to take it to game 2 and 3.

Game Two, was over quickly. Long story short Opponent played 3 swords, council's judgement snap council's judgement, and jace into entreat the angels. (I even clique'd away two terminus)

Not the best start to say the least 0-1.
=======================
Round 2: vs Affinity on the draw

Game One was over quickly on the back of an abrupt decay, ravager blowout. Turn 1 I suspended visions, turn 4 played shardless into visions, turn 5 visions pops. Oh my... #livingthedream

Game Two, took a while as I had an enormous board presence but couldn't find the Decays for Ensnaring Bridge.

1-1
=========================
Round 3: vs RUG Delver on the play

We got deck checked because I had only written in 13 sideboard cards! Oops. I received a game loss which is just, but again, not where you want to be.

Game Two (One) I played around my opponent's soft permission well and got there fairly quickly with a couple of tarmogoyfs.

Game Three, Opening grip I drew my Leyline to shut off his mongeese. I played around stifle and wasteland (he had two of each it turned out) fetching out my basic swamp and forest. I held the second fetch for a turn trying to induce him to tap out which he obliged when he pondered. After that Tarmogoyfs held the ground while Tombstalker pounded from the skies.

Got there! 2-1
=================
Round 4: vs Burn on the draw

Game One, my rolls have just been trash today! Turn 1 my opponent cracked a fetch and played a basic mountain and I knew it was gonna be a tough round. I was able to fetch out my basics, throw down a few goyfs and hymn my opponent. Putting him into top deck mode with nothing but basics out put him down a game early. Stole it!

Game Two, I mull to six and my opponent burns me out in four turns.

Game Three, I stabilize extremely early and take it to him. There's a standoff for a bit on the ground, but Tombstalker closes the game out. Phew!

3-1
==================
Round 5: vs Infect on the draw

Game One, my hand is decent but I draw into 3 tarmogoyfs and 2 jaces... which are pretty much the worst cards in this matchup. By Turn 5 I think it's over.

Game Two, I had all the removal a boy could want and 3 Ancestral Visions popped off for me. Landed Night of Souls' Betrayal and won with beaters. Never toxic Deluged for 9 before this.

Game Three, More Removal, More hand disruption. Lookin good! Ended the game by forcing his berserk and with deathrite activations and Tombstalker in the air combining for 9.

4-1
==================
Round 6: vs Esper Delver/Deathrite on the draw (rolled snake eyes against a roll of 3 lol, not my day)

Game One, I never saw a delver put him on an esper mentor deck. Felt like round 1 as my opponent really had it all. Turn 1 my deathrite got dazed. turn 2 my hymn got dazed. turn 3 I managed to get a vital third land stifled. He played two more force of will stopping a Tombstalker and a Jace, then plowed my lone Strix for good measure. Ouch. It was a beating.

Game Two, justice was served quickly. I drew three shardless agents and a clique.

Game Three, I was very mentally exhausted at this point and managed to punt the game away by not wasting his only black source (didn't even kind of see it till later), and a pretty gross misuse of Maelstrom Pulse on my part. I deff did not deserve this one.

4-2
==================
I think the day is over but as it turns out my breakers are absolutely *insane*. Made top 8 with a loss? I'll take that. Who needs X-1-1? Let this be a lesson to all! Always, Always de-board. Always.

Top 8 Match 1: vs Death and Taxes on the draw

Game One, I play around wasteland and get a solid manabase out. My opponent amasses his small army, and I allow it with some goyfs on defense. I await him to overextend even more into my golgari charm in hand... wait... my golgari... charm... in hand.... dammnit. I call the judge and give myself a game loss.

Game Two, I make sure my mana is solid once again keeping a hand of 4 lands, an abrupt decay and two brainstorms. I allow my opponent to overextend into a night of souls' betrayal. Took it down.

Game Three, shaping up like game 2 with a little less mana. He's on a plains and a port, although he has vial out. I was just about to turn the corner and stabilize but managed to try to decay a Thalia with mom out instead of hitting the obvious vial. I just shake my head as he takes it down. He thanked me for my honesty in game 1. It helps a little.
===================

All in all, the deck is a monster. 23 lands with basics was clutch. Tombstalker was king for a day. So many times I would tap for double black and start to exile cards to have my opponent declare i couldn't cast Dig :)

The only change to the list above I would make is -1 Dig Through Time, +1 Baleful Strix. This deck could have easily taken this event. How many game losses does a guy have to accumulate in one REL? My second, to be fair, and I learned a lot. Thanks for reading.

[Krimson Viper]

Just to clear up his ^ deck list a little for myself and maybe for others.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tombstalker

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Force of Wll
1 Dig Through Time

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Null Rod
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Night of Soul’s Betrayal
3 Leyline of the Void

[Miscanthus]

.......All in all, the deck is a monster. 23 lands with basics was clutch. Tombstalker was king for a day. So many times I would tap for double black and start to exile cards to have my opponent declare i couldn't cast Dig :)

The only change to the list above I would make is -1 Dig Through Time, +1 Baleful Strix. This deck could have easily taken this event. How many game losses does a guy have to accumulate in one REL? My second, to be fair, and I learned a lot. Thanks for reading.

Great report!

Out of curiosity, have you ever missed having Liliana of the Veil in your deck?
I have been considering cutting her lately, resulting in a build similar to yours, so it's good to see a successful result.

[Lifeloss]

Great report!

Out of curiosity, have you ever missed having Liliana of the Veil in your deck?
I have been considering cutting her lately, resulting in a build similar to yours, so it's good to see a successful result.

I have not missed Liliana even a little. I am not high on her right now due to mentors and pyromancers floating around (by the way to kill mentor tokens with engineered plague, name monk not human).

Even in matchups where, in theory, she should be good... I find she's mediocre.

When constructing the deck I thought about how players attack Shardless. You can attack Shardless' mana base, and you can get under it. Those are the two best ways to blow us out, and with that in mind I came up with:

1. Solid consistent mana base. Hell, by game 3 even the burn player sided out Price of Progress against me. That's pretty awesome. I can't stress how happy I was with 23 instead of 22.

2. Lots and Lots and Lots of removal. We will win the late game. That's going to happen. This helps us get there.

[Krimson Viper]

Took the deck to a four round tournament tonight and went 1-1-2. The last round we went to game three with ten minutes left so I had a lot of misplays. A lot. And it was against a Junk colored deck with no Stoneforge Mystic and running Lingering Souls. First time piloting the deck, and I am not entirely sure i should be running twenty two lands, but the color sensitivity is crucial so I think I'll leave it alone until I get more in tune with how the deck goes. I am coming from Burn, sweet, sweet Burn. I beat Reanimator(home brew for the most part), draw against the mirror, lost to Dredge and that Junk deck.

My list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
1 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar-Pit
2 Wasteland

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Vendilion Clique

First change I want to make is have a second Jace and maybe move Lili to the side replacing either Thoughtseize or Hymn, or just take Lili out completely. Not sure yet, but I feel like discard isn't the greatest right now with all the DTT running around. I also want Krosan Grip in the side and take out a Needle. Could you guys give me sideboard suggestions? Here's what I did against my opponents:
Dredge - Out Hymn
In Nihil Spellbomb

Mirror - Out two Force, Jace, Toxic, Thoughtseize
In Decay, Charm, Library, Jitte, and Clique
Game three I switched Lili for Jace. I did this for another win con and since I'm not longer on the play, tempo was no longer in my side.

Reanimator - Out Hymn, Disfigure, one Decay, Toxic
In Spellbomb, one Needle, Arcane Laboratory, Clique

Junk - Out Lili, Hymn, two Force
In Decay, Charm, Library, Rod and Clique
Game three I dropped Clique for the second Deluge. After my opening seven, I realized Clique is really bad in a game full of Souls.

Also, yay! We are in DTB!

[LarsLeif]

Nice to be back in DtB, let's hope DTT gets the axe as well as icing on the BG/x Cake :)

I don't play the same list as you so I don't have a clear side-board table, but you should never cut Jace in the mirror. It's probably the best card in a match that will likely stall out and go long.

[danpo]

Hi. I’ve been playing this deck at my weekly lately and have wound up 2-1-1 (ID) both times.

--

This owes a tremendous amount to this list (1/47) from Stephane Soubrier:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10125&f=LE

4 Deathrite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge

4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB:

1 Savannah
4 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal

--

Last week:

Round 1 I lost to Lands, partly because I forgot Thespian’s Stage keeps the ability to turn into something else again and missed a key chance to Waste him before Marit Lage happened. In general it’s a hard deck for us to interact with though, no?

I then got paired against a kid I knew to be on Belcher, mulled to a six with FOW, which I used T1 before he got to four mana, then ground out his remaining hand with Liliana. In game two he brought it like six Pyroblasts which made short work of Meddling Mage but Null Rod is awesome against Lion’s Eye Diamond so I got there anyway.

I then lost game one against Omnishow but rolled him in games two and three bc hand-hate and Meddling Mage.

Being 2-1 I then gamely ID’d with my last opponent, who it turned out was on Merfolk. We played just to see what would happen and I rolled him 2-0.

All very nice opponents btw.

--

This week:

Mulled to six, kept a hand with fetch, Deathrite, Brainstorm, 3x Shardless Agent. Proceed to brick on lands until about turn 5, Deathrite gets killed, scoop to Jace.

G2 I teased out a FOW with T2 Sylvan, then started applying pressure with Goyf, DRS and Liliana. He’s hellbent when he miraculously Entreats for 3 Angels off the top and turns the game around. Life sux.

R2 I get paired against Miracles again, this time with Back to Basics, but G1 it’s him who gets locked on land and I step all over him with guys and Jace.

G2 Null Rod baits out the Force and then a Shardless makes my hand real big and I play planeswalkers and Needle on Divining Top and his deck hates him and he dies. Not sure how much credit my deck and I can take for that.

Round three I am paired against Death-n-Taxes which apparently just has a really hard time with maindeck Toxic Deluge. G2 is seriously inconvenient because he lands a Rest In Peace which makes my Goyfs and Deathrites shitty (and by extension also Shardless into them is unimpressive, that happened twice) but he always has something else I’d rather be Abrupt Decaying (like Needle on Liliana) so he dies a slow miserable death as much to meh topdecks and my planeswalker activations as to actual things that kill him, like Deathrites attacking for 1 each. Sorry dude.

Round four I am paired against the same Merfolk played and we ID once again, which is good because in playing random games for fun this was not the same thrashing I handed him last week.

--

Potential tweaks:

The MB Vendilion Clique feels kinda random and I’m not sure if I’m playing it correctly. Not sure if Baleful Stryx is what I want there instead. Have thought about other MB handhate like Hymn or Thoughtseize, as exemplified by Michael Braverman and others, but part of me just hates on Dig Through Time. I know, it’s unprofessional.

Think there’s an argument to cut a Vision as well but actually just playing it on T2, it tends to resolve right as we’re both stalling and makes my life awesome.

Night of Soul’s Betrayal costs a lot. It’s possible it should just be Golgari Charm or Engineered Plague.

--

Sideboarding:

Against Miracles I take out all three FOW and I can’t remember what else. My logic is FOW is not where the profit happens. Bring in Needle, Null Rod and I think hand hate. Recommendations?

Anyway looking forward to getting y’all’s input. I like this deck a lot lately.

And yes, I can see the argument for putting Liliana in the sideboard and mainboarding stuff like Hymn/Thoughtseize.

Yep.

[LarsLeif]

I don't board out Fow against Miracles. You will just die instantly to entreat otherwise.

[Whitefaces]

I don't board out Fow against Miracles. You will just die instantly to entreat otherwise.

Likewise. You get so much CA from things like Visions, Agents etc that the card you pitch is acceptable.

SBing is quite dependent on what versions of miracles you're playing against.

[Lejay]

The MB Vendilion Clique feels kinda random and I’m not sure if I’m playing it correctly.

Stéphane was planning to play my decklist (the 75 I played from summer 2014 to treasure cruise release). He just didn't have the 4th fow because the lender didn't come and he replaced it with what he had.

[danpo]

This isn't exactly "Shardless," but after trying this style out and doing some tweaking I went 5-2 with a variant somewhat along these lines, essentially with Dark Confidant and Baleful Stryx in lieu of Shardless Agent and Ancestral Vision.

Tournament report here, if this is interesting or gives you ideas:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29910-5-2-with-BUG-Value-friends-at-a-GPT-in-California&p=903969#post903969

(cross posting to BUG Delver thread as well)

[Krimson Viper]

What's the game plan against Infect and Merfolk? I feel like they are winnable match ups if I can play better instead of the deck pretty much piloting itself.

[Lifeloss]

What's the game plan against Infect and Merfolk? I feel like they are winnable match ups if I can play better instead of the deck pretty much piloting itself.

Infect is very beatable.

Merfolk is not a great match-up. Your game plan is to cast goyfs and turn them sideways. If you have the ability to turn your deck into B/G removal you should do so.

Infect you attack their hand and kill everything they play. Tarmogoyf and JTMS are really bad and you don't want to draw them. Do not race them. You will lose. Just kill everything they put out, and strip their hand into oblivion.

[firebadmattgood]

Cast your instant speed removal against infect on your own turn, so that their vines just trade card for card, rather than trading plus pumping on the swing.

[Krimson Viper]

Infect is very beatable.

Merfolk is not a great match-up. Your game plan is to cast goyfs and turn them sideways. If you have the ability to turn your deck into B/G removal you should do so.

Infect you attack their hand and kill everything they play. Tarmogoyf and JTMS are really bad and you don't want to draw them. Do not race them. You will lose. Just kill everything they put out, and strip their hand into oblivion.

So I was correct with boarding out Jace. I'm surprised about Goyf though? He's our finisher. I'm guessing we just disintegrate their hand and beat face with Agent and drain with Shaman?

Is there ever a time we side Agent out?

[janluis1]

Is this deck getting better or worse with dig ban? opinions ?

[H]

Is this deck getting better or worse with dig ban? opinions ?

Although I don't usually play Shardless, Dig being gone is a major boost to attrition strategies. This will most certainly help Shardless, even if you weren't playing Hymn.

[order]

DTT is gone and the format will look like to mid 2014.

Top 3 decks
Bug delver
Miracles (for me, the best deck)
Sneak show

Decks that will see more play
Tempo decks with stile/wasteland
Death and taxes (punish sneak/show)
Elves (grixis crushed it)
Infect (grixis crushed it)
Stoneblade with true-name
Punishing Jund

Decks that leave
Omnitell
Grixis Control
Grixis Delver

My feelings
- Stilfe/wasteland is dangerous for us. We should run basics and strix becomes better.
- Liliana is way better whitout Dig and pyromancer.
- Hymn is better as well
- We will see much more bg decks. Notion thief makes a come back?
- Shardless like to play against miracles.
- We will see less reb effect main decks. Visions and Jace becomes better.

I was confortable playing shardless in the DTT era because the format was slower, with less mana denial. As a shardless player, I prefer playing agains grixis decks all day instead of bug delver, infect and death and taxes.

[Krimson Viper]

Yeah, BG decks will be coming back in full force due to grinding opponent's down is viable again. Jund should be coming back, so Surgical Extraction might be something we want in our boards to help against Punishing Fire. Miracles will be a deck, RUG Delver should be coming back. I'm not expecting Sneak & Show though. Death & Taxes stomps that deck out and D&T was pretty popular before Khans was legal.

[janluis1]

Yeah, BG decks will be coming back in full force due to grinding opponent's down is viable again. Jund should be coming back, so Surgical Extraction might be something we want in our boards to help against Punishing Fire. Miracles will be a deck, RUG Delver should be coming back. I'm not expecting Sneak & Show though. Death & Taxes stomps that deck out and D&T was pretty popular before Khans was legal.

sneak and show has to beat containment priest out of the boards now and I doubt it will make a reappearance unless people will find out some new idea such as boarding omniscience in order to fight match ups where karakas and priest are a problem

[jim111589]

So with the anti discard spells out of the picture what is the downside of maxing out on hymns mb?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Swizzie2000]

So with the anti discard spells out of the picture what is the downside of maxing out on hymns mb?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

This is an interesting question. I don't think its appropriate to play more than 3 hymns for a couple reasons.

1. Card draw. With this deck we see a lot of cards. I like having a variety of cards so having one ofs like toxic deluge take slots from the 4th hymn.

2. Hymn is on the radar. People will be ready for hymn to make a huge comeback. Decks will be ready to combat this card with cards like misdirection. Also, hymn isn't great vs decks like Deach and Taxes which are likely to be popular.

3. Force of Will requires a lot of blue sources. If you're overloaded on black spells it reduces the potency of FoW.

4. It's a one mana format. I have a hard time playing 4 2 mana cost discard spells. I think thoughtseize should take up at least one main deck discard slot.

I've been playing 3 hymn main with one side, and I've been happy with that configuration.

[weiuweiu]

Hello!
I just completed this Deck in paper. Played it online for like 2 months. First time for me going into legacy seriously. Playing jund i modern for some years but since starting to try out legacy i have found a new favorite format.

I would really like to hear what you think of my list as you been playing this deck for a longer time then me. I have done 80 games on mtgo tournament practice and is currently 50/30 in wins and losses.

As you can see i have the discard package in the board, have been for the dtts running around but might change it now after the Ban. I do however like running cards like Sylvan in the mainboard.

/weiuweiu




4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Thoughtseize
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Disfigure

Skickat från min E6553 via Tapatalk

[Daban]

Hello!
I have a Maverick deck, but I've been looking to upgrade to some other legacy deck and Shardless BUG had caught my eye.
How has the recent Dig ban effected the deck? Has it made the deck itself much worse? Has any bad/good matchups changed (because they don't have dig anymore)?

Edit: I'm thinking about running 3 planeswalkers MB. Though I'm not sure on the split, currently thinking about 2 Lily 1 Jace, what do you guys find is the best?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The main reason to play this deck is its good Miracles matchup. The banning of DTT is great for this deck, as now Liliana and Hymn are both very good again.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Krimson Viper]

I feel as if Shardless BUG got a big upgrade, and will be extremely popular. I can't picture any current match ups getting worse, but some have definitely gotten a lot better. Aside from the mirror, Burn, Jund, and Lands, I can't picture a fair deck giving this deck problems. Of course, this is coming from an inexperienced Shardless BUG player, feel free to correct if I'm wrong because I can use that information as well. I also prefer to have two Jaces to give the deck more win conditions instead of just having Goyf.

My current list.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (I want two, can't figure out what to switch)
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar-Pit

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Vendilion Clique

[jim111589]

So I'm not 100% on the meddling magen in the board. Does it take the place of hymn/seize in the board? Does it only come in against combo? What land usually comes out for the scrub/Savanah?

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[Secretly.A.Bee]

Drop a Visions for Jace #2. I'm pretty sure a wasteland comes out for the in-board land and I'm fairly certain that you swap out the Strix for the mages, at least in the storm matchup.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[btm10]

Drop a Visions for Jace #2. I'm pretty sure a wasteland comes out for the in-board land and I'm fairly certain that you swap out the Strix for the mages, at least in the storm matchup.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Drop Forest or Swamp for the SB dual (cut the basic that makes the nonwhite color of the dual) if you want to go on the Meddling Mage plan. Wasteland is a card you want
to use against combo if at all possible, so don't board one out.

I'd also be more inclined to trim something for the second Liliana than for the second Jace. The 2/1 split has always treated me very well.

[jim111589]

So what would the other 10 sb cards look like aside from land+4 mages

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[btm10]

So what would the other 10 sb cards look like aside from land+4 mages

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It depends on your list and what you expect to play against. I can't find a list you've posted in the last few pages, so I can't really comment on how I would board in a given matchup. I've said this like five times now - I haven't found Meddling Mage to be markedly better than more discard or cards like Thorn of Amethyst. But if you're boarding hatebears in, I'd probably cut Goyfs for them against combo.

[weiuweiu]

What do we do against lands?

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[Krimson Viper]

My only thought on Lands is Surgical Extraction and Nihil Spellbomb.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Leyline of the Void is an option.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Jo4source]

Hey guys I have seen this list on the mother ship any thoughts of the list


STICKY53'S FOUR-COLOR SHARDLESS—1ST PLACE, MAGIC ONLINE DAILY EVENT

DECKLIST
STATS
SAMPLE HAND
SORT BY:
Planeswalker (5)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
Creature (15)
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (4)
4 Ancestral Vision
Instant (14)
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
Land (22)
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Force of Will
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Baleful Strix
1 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize

[Lord_Cyrus]

Hey guys I have seen this list on the mother ship any thoughts of the list


STICKY53'S FOUR-COLOR SHARDLESS—1ST PLACE, MAGIC ONLINE DAILY EVENT

DECKLIST
STATS
SAMPLE HAND
SORT BY:
Planeswalker (5)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
Creature (15)
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (4)
4 Ancestral Vision
Instant (14)
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
Land (22)
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Force of Will
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Baleful Strix
1 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize

Yiiikes. That manabase. :cry: It hurts just to look at it. Honestly I feel like the deck is trying to Shardless-Jund and loses too much focus to be any good. Shardless is already strong against "fair" decks, so I don't think losing the discard can be a good thing. What do you have to fight combo with this list? 3 FoW? That is not enough, and unlike Delver, the clock is going to be too slow to be relevant. Obviously you pick it up Postboard, but I feel like the game 1 sacrifices being made here are too great.

[Jo4source]

Yiiikes. That manabase. :cry: It hurts just to look at it. Honestly I feel like the deck is trying to Shardless-Jund and loses too much focus to be any good. Shardless is already strong against "fair" decks, so I don't think losing the discard can be a good thing. What do you have to fight combo with this list? 3 FoW? That is not enough, and unlike Delver, the clock is going to be too slow to be relevant. Obviously you pick it up Postboard, but I feel like the game 1 sacrifices being made here are too great.


I just found the list on magics main site. I noticed the mana seemed to be BOAB.

I have never played shard less bug before. What are shard less bugs good and poor match ups.

Also his dose the Normal shard less fight combo the deck plays no counter magic.

[Lord_Cyrus]

I just found the list on magics main site. I noticed the mana seemed to be BOAB.

I have never played shard less bug before. What are shard less bugs good and poor match ups.

Also his dose the Normal shard less fight combo the deck plays no counter magic.

I don't think the budget is the problem. It's just... 4 colors and still trying to play Creeping Tar Pit and basic Mountain? I can't stand losing to color screw, personally.

"Normal" Shardless has the following cards against Combo in the maindeck:

3 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2-3 Hymn to Tourach

So that is 8-9 relevant pieces of disruption. And the discard has good synergy with Lilliana to keep their hand empty. Preventing ANT from being able to achieve critical mass is a realistic goal given that you can disrupt their GY tricks with DrShaman. I would NOT say it is a good matchup, but I would say it is at least 40% winnable game one, and that is saying something given that Shardless is easily favored, 55-60% against a lot of "fair" decks like Death and Taxes, Delver, etc. The Miracles matchup is quite strong too. I couldn't give you a percentage, but the versions playing Null Rod out of the SB look like a nightmare for Miracles. You can jump over to their thread and witness the agitation for yourself. :tongue:

[Lord_Cyrus]

1st Place at SCG Indy:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58122

Maindeck:

Artifact Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Null Rod
3 Meddling Mage
2 Disfigure
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Scrubland

I have to say, I really, really like this list. The only thing that strikes me as a possible mistake is the lack of Thoughtseize in the mainboard. But it could be a meta call. Obviously it was right for the tournament. I like the consistent plan and numbers. I also think 2 basics and one Tar Pit are the correct numbers for the manabase.

[weiuweiu]

Trying to fit in 1 Creeping Tar Pit. What land do you recommend do remove to make space?

4Verdant Catacombs
2Misty Rainforest
3Underground Sea
4Wasteland
2Bayou
4Polluted Delta
1Tropical Island
1Swamp
1Forest

[Krimson Viper]

I'be been told that Wasteland isn't there to mans screw people, but to destroy key lands. With wasteland becoming a thing in opposing decks, I'm not entirely sure what else you'll need four for, other than to target Tar Pit and Inkmoth. I think cutting one for a Tar Pit is the appropriate move.

My two cents.

[janluis1]

I'be been told that Wasteland isn't there to mans screw people, but to destroy key lands. With wasteland becoming a thing in opposing decks, I'm not entirely sure what else you'll need four for, other than to target Tar Pit and Inkmoth. I think cutting one for a Tar Pit is the appropriate move.

My two cents.


a lot of players don't play wasteland properly in this deck. our goal is to win the late game and if you go for the mana screw plan you are screwing yourself instead. When I play shardless I play maximum 2 wastelands. They are there mostly for dark depths

[VsTheWorld]

I'm a fan of 3 Wastes in the deck. The previous two posts are correct, you aren't playing them for the "mana screw your opponent" plan because you don't have the clock to back that up usually. You almost never want to see multiples early unless you open with Deathrite so you still have the mana to develop your threats while slowing them down. Wastes in Shardless are there for the utility lands you otherwise struggle with. Karakas, Dark Depths, Port, and all the manlands. That being said, you pretty much always want to see one in the matchups you need them in. Three feels like the correct number to me in that situation.

[weiuweiu]

Thanks for the help! 3 Wastelands and one tar pit it is!

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[btm10]

I think anywhere from 2-4 is defensible, but 3 is the easiest fit. I'd always play 4 if I could because the randomly blow people out, but the deck is susceptible to flooding already and is also color intensive, so the Wastelands aren't free like they are in Delver.

[Krimson Viper]

With Miracles turning into Mentor Miracles, I think Massacre isn't such a bad choice and I'd be willing to try it as a replacing one copy of Toxic Deluge. I think that if I'm going to keep discard main, I either have to keep it at four, or eliminate it. I will try four Hymn at my next event and see how that goes, but I think I will change it over to Liliana increased numbers. Liliana just has more modes and isn't as bad of a top deck as any discard.

Today was three rounds and it just wasn't a good day for me. I mulled nearly every game, probably because I just didn't see a hand I could work with and I lost every die roll, but the first. First match was against a midrange Affinity list utilizing Black Vise. Definitely an interesting deck. I lost game one by Ethersworn Canonist keeping my hand from emptying fast enough, and Vise killing me fast after Days Undoikg being cast. I definitely wasn't prepared for something like that as a pilot, but it felt very winnable. In this, I took out Forces and brought in Spellbomb, Extraction, Jitte, Nullrod. I've always felt like bringing Rod in with artifact cards was a bad choice, and it certainly was. After hitting Rod off of a Cascade, I promptly drew Spellbomb and Jitte. Any help with this would be much appreciated.

Second match was lost by at least three misplays against Infect. Game one I mana screwed myself by fetching a Sea instead of Bayou. As a result, I couldn't cast any of the four green cards in my hand that would have given me a fighting chance. Game two was one on the back of Goyf beats with Deathrite activations. Game three I mulled to five and lost on turn three. In this match up, I brought out Jace, a Goyf, a Vision for Jitte, Clique, Hymn, Thoughtseize.

Third match was against Mentor Miracles. This match up has changed I feel from your traditional Miracles. I lost game one after a good long grind and Mentor going nuts with Top activations. Game two I destroyed him after Goyf beats and eventual Shaman activations. This match came to a draw. I feel that if it were to keep playing out, I would have beaten him, but we were both just slow pilots.

My list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
1 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar-Pit
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Vendilion Clique

Right now, I am changing Thoughtseize from the main to the side and moving Hymn from the board to main. I think this will be proper now that Dig is gone. I think I will be taking Clique out from the side and possibly putting a second Disfigure in. Not entirely sure why, but I know I'm not entirely happy with Clique. I have only castes it once though, so I could be wrong. Might actually put Massacre in in Clique's place. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Swizzie2000]

To previous poster, you brought up a lot of questions, but I'd just point out you seem very light on turn one creature interaction. I wouldn't suit up this deck without 2 disfigure, but I'm currently playing 3.

We really want to drag out games, and turn one plays can be dangerous. Mom, elves, delver, infect, all these decks require quick efficient interaction. I'm not sure how competitive you can be with only 1 disfigure.

Also notion theif is on the uptick, so I think disfigure is a reasonable answer to that card.

[wnorris]

For you all playing the white splash in the side, what is the benefit of meddling Mage versus containment priest?

[hibachi777]

I'd play Dread of Night out of the board before Massacre. You can cascade into it or just drop it on turn one if it's in your hand. Miracles might also have a difficult time removing an enchantment as well.

[Quasim0ff]

For you all playing the white splash in the side, what is the benefit of meddling Mage versus containment priest?
meddling mage is also playable against stuff like storm?

[H]

For you all playing the white splash in the side, what is the benefit of meddling Mage versus containment priest?

Containment Priest is pretty much only good versus Reanimator, Dredge, Elves, and Sneak and Show.

Meddling Mage is good (or at least useful) versus Reanimator, Dredge, Elves, Sneak and Show, Miracles, Storm, Jund (P. Fire), and all sorts of janky combo decks.

So, why play the more narrow card?

[wnorris]

Containment Priest is pretty much only good versus Reanimator, Dredge, Elves, and Sneak and Show.

Meddling Mage is good (or at least useful) versus Reanimator, Dredge, Elves, Sneak and Show, Miracles, Storm, Jund (P. Fire), and all sorts of janky combo decks.

So, why play the more narrow card?

Thanks for your input. I don't have much experience with meddling Mage, and i wasn't sure if it was too narrow for matchups like miracles and elves. But the more I think about it it seems pretty good there.

Do you normally board it in in all of those matchups? I feel like Jund, and maybe miracles, would just have lots of ways to remove it.

[H]

I honestly I don't play Shardless, but I do believe that they board it in versus Miracles. Versus Jund, well, I guess it depends on how much discard you have to take to out and how many other things you have in your board. Lands would probably have been a better example of a Punishing Fire deck though, plus Mage can stop them from Loaming as well.

In the end, Meddling Mage can be a hard card to play optimally. It is a powerful weapon and a big part of why this deck, in the hands of a highly skilled player like Lejay is a very formidable opponent. I, for one, often cannot wield it as well as it should be. If you are a beginner, or unsure, I would not play it, because then it is definitely the worst card in the list. As you learn the deck and the meta, it is a good thing you can turn to though.

[btm10]

I board Dread of Night for the same reason. It's just better than Massacre in all the matchups where you want Massacre and both are bad against Elves. As for Disfigure, I'll take my chances with Elves and Mom. D&T's average hand is obnoxious to us but not debilitating, and we're favored in the long game because of Jace, Liliana, and Deluge. Against Elves, we don't have much interaction game 1, and a 1-2 Disfigure isn't going to change that. It's a terrible cascade hit in matchups that aren't D&T, Elves, and Delver, and it's marginal even against Delver, where Strix is all but strictly better. In a world where it's correct to run even singleton MD Disfigure, I'd rather play Jund.

[weiuweiu]

Have u seen this list http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/328096#online it includes the new jace. What do people think of it? I rather just run Sylvan Library i think.

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[hibachi777]

Have u seen this list http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/328096#online it includes the new jace. What do people think of it? I rather just run Sylvan Library i think.

I wouldn't want to just completely rule out baby Jace since after playing with him (and against him) in modern, I've learned that it's a pretty damn good card in grindy matchups. Having said that, I have a hard time believing that a second JTMS or a Sylvan Library wouldn't just be better. It would be one thing if baby Jace let you cast Ancestral for free or something gross like that. I'll probably test it out though just to get a better feel before I totally dismiss the idea because like I said, Jace is the real deal in modern.

[Krimson Viper]

To previous poster, you brought up a lot of questions, but I'd just point out you seem very light on turn one creature interaction. I wouldn't suit up this deck without 2 disfigure, but I'm currently playing 3.

We really want to drag out games, and turn one plays can be dangerous. Mom, elves, delver, infect, all these decks require quick efficient interaction. I'm not sure how competitive you can be with only 1 disfigure.

Also notion theif is on the uptick, so I think disfigure is a reasonable answer to that card.
Yeah, I noticed I'm lacking in that interaction as well. What would you suggest I take out for a Disfigure in the main? I'm leaning towards the miser Pulse and moving it into the bored, replacing Clique. It will hurt my control match up, but I feel like D&T will be making a come back, and Infect is getting more popular by the day. Maybe dropping Vision down to three?

How does everyone feel about Jitte? I noticed I'm the only one running it. It helped me to close out a few games in fair match ups. It's just an absolute beating, not to mention it helps out in Burn just a little. However a smart Burn player will bring in artifact hate for Agent and Strix. Or do smart Shardless players remove Strix? I know Strix is an excellent blocker against Swiftspear.

[Nocley]

I played with baby Jace last night. Was not impressed by it at all. In theory I thought it would be good to recur removal/etc but usually if we can get it to flip we're usually just winning the game anyways. Our spells are a bit too low impact outside of Vision, and since we can't Jace it back, usually I'm hitting an Abrupt Decay maybe? I didn't have times where it was good to flashback a Hymm or Thoughtseize, as I was ahead on cards and just needed a clock to finish them off. Because of that, I feel big Jace is much better suited (I was running 2 in place of that and the 4th FoW) for this list. Plus big Jace would never get Sword/Karakas'd out, while baby did multiple times.

[ironclad8690]

I have been playing this recently and winning almost every match, but there is one guy online who plays Junk Stoneblade with Hymn and Gerrard's Verdict, as well as Lingering Souls and Bob, STP Decay etc.

I don't think I have ever played a more slanted matchup in my entire life. I board out forces and board in disfigures and artifact hate, but he just gets seemingly the nut draw every single game.

Anyone else having a similar experience?

[Whitefaces]

I have been playing this recently and winning almost every match, but there is one guy online who plays Junk Stoneblade with Hymn and Gerrard's Verdict, as well as Lingering Souls and Bob, STP Decay etc.

I don't think I have ever played a more slanted matchup in my entire life. I board out forces and board in disfigures and artifact hate, but he just gets seemingly the nut draw every single game.

Anyone else having a similar experience?

I've not played this matchup, but try a Night of Souls Betrayal in the SB. Seems like it'd do some work.

[AustinP]

Split the finals of my local legacy tonight playing the list that won a couple weeks ago.

dragon stompy 2-0 win
rug delver 2-1 win
reanimator 2-0 win

top 4:

rug delver 2-1 win

Finals:

split with reanimator

really liked the deck! here is my sideboard

1x scrubland
3x meddling mage
1x golgari charm
3x thoughtseize
1x surgical extraction
1x grafdiggers cage
2x disfigure
1x sylvan library
1x pithing needle
1x toxic deluge

[Krimson Viper]

Split the finals of my local legacy tonight playing the list that won a couple weeks ago.

dragon stompy 2-0 win
rug delver 2-1 win
reanimator 2-0 win

top 4:

rug delver 2-1 win

Finals:

split with reanimator

really liked the deck! here is my sideboard

1x scrubland
3x meddling mage
1x golgari charm
3x thoughtseize
1x surgical extraction
1x grafdiggers cage
2x disfigure
1x sylvan library
1x pithing needle
1x toxic deluge

Could you post your list again, please and thank you?

[Swizzie2000]

Yeah, I noticed I'm lacking in that interaction as well. What would you suggest I take out for a Disfigure in the main? I'm leaning towards the miser Pulse and moving it into the bored, replacing Clique. It will hurt my control match up, but I feel like D&T will be making a come back, and Infect is getting more popular by the day. Maybe dropping Vision down to three?

How does everyone feel about Jitte? I noticed I'm the only one running it. It helped me to close out a few games in fair match ups. It's just an absolute beating, not to mention it helps out in Burn just a little. However a smart Burn player will bring in artifact hate for Agent and Strix. Or do smart Shardless players remove Strix? I know Strix is an excellent blocker against Swiftspear.

I don't think you want to put disfigure in the main, but you definately want multiples in the sideboard. 2 arcane laboratory is probably more than you will want/need vs storm.

If you really want more creature kill in the main, I'd recommend toxic deluge or maelstrom pulse.

[AustinP]

Could you post your list again, please and thank you?



3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil


4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

honestly never played the jace and ended up sided him out alot.

[ironclad8690]

Would you guys say that the white splash sb for meddling mage is basically stock now?

[AustinP]

Would you guys say that the white splash sb for meddling mage is basically stock now?

it is for me, considering meddling mage is one of my favorite sideboard cards in legacy.

[Whitefaces]

it is for me, considering meddling mage is one of my favorite sideboard cards in legacy.

I wouldn't call it stock as there are still a lot of players that don't run MM, but I wouldn't leave the house without them in the SB now. Builds with discard MD can get away without them better as they have a shot at beating combo G1. But the 'European' build (no discard MD) submits G1 to combo in favour of having a great matchup vs fair decks, so having discard, counters and hateful permanents G2 and G3 is vital to attack on multiple angles as we have no space for a mistake.

[ironclad8690]

I don't remember ever seeing a Shardless list without discard in the MD, can you post an example list please?

[order]

Hey guys, what do think about my current my sideboard strategy:


Miracles - I like keeping fow to stop entreat/jace
-3x baleful -1x tropical -1x toxic deluge
+1x needle +1xnull rod + 2x meddling mage + 1x scrubland

Mirror
-3x force of will
+ 2x desfigure +1x notion tief

Storm
-4x abrupt -1x toxic -1x maelstrom -3x baleful strix -1x forest
+ 3xmeddling mage +2x thoughtseize +1x notion thief +1 scrubland +1x null rod +1x fow +1x golgari charm

Bug Delver
(Without Stifle) -2x fow +2x desfigure
(With Stifle) -2x hymn -1seize +2x desfigure +1scrubland

Rug Delver
-2x hymn -1jace +2x desfigure +1 scrubland

Elves
+1x graffdigger cage +3x meddling mage +1x scrubland +2x thoughtseize +2x desfigure +1x night of soul betrayal +1x golgari charm
-3x baleful -1pulse -4x ancestral vision -1x wasteland -1x jace -1goyf

Infect
+2x thoughtseize +1x needle +2x desfigure +1x night of soul betrayal +1golgari charm
-4x ancestral vision -1x jace,tms -1x tarmogoyf -1maelstrom pulse(too slow)

Deathblade
+2x desfigure +1x golgari charm 1x notion thief 1x pithing needle +1seize
-1 fow -3xbaleful strix -2hymn

Sneak Attack
+2x thoughtseize +1x notion thief +1x golgari charm +3x meddling mage +1 scrubland +1 fow +1 needle
-3x baleful -4x abrupt decay -1x pulse -1x toxic deluge -1x tropical

Grixis Delver (with grumag + young pyromancer)
-2x hymn -1xfow -1x thoughtseize
+2x desfigure +1 night of the soul's betrayal +1x golgari charm

Burn
-1x thoughtseize -1x maelstrom pulse -1x toxic deluge
+2x desfigure +1x fow

RG Lands:
+3x meddling mage +1x scrubland(stop p.fire) +1x pithing needle +1x fow +2x thoughtseize
-3xbaleful -1x toxic deluge -1x pulse -2x hymn -1liliana

Jund with p.fire
+2 desfigure +1golgari(regenerate goyf + kill bob)
-3x fow (play) -3xdiscart(draw)


----------------

My current list
4x polluted delta
4x verdant catacombs
2x misty rainforest
3x underground sea
1x bayou
2x tropical island
1x swamp
1x forest
3x wasteland
1x tar pit

4x tarmogoyf
4x deathrite shaman
4x shardless agent
3x baleful strix

1x jace, the mind sculptor
2x liliana of the veil
4x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse (not in love with it)
1x toxic deluge

4x ancestral visions
4x brainstorm

3x force of will
2x hymn to tourach
1x toughtseize

SIDE
3x meddling mage
1x scrubland
1x force of will
2x toughtseize
1x notion thief
1x pithing needle
1x null rod
1x grafdigger cage
1x golgari charm
1x night of the soul's betrayal
2x desfigure

[Tantarus]

So I am just getting into this deck after finally trading into some goyfs. I am about to play it for the first time in a weekly event. I was curious, How important are the Meddling Mages in a post omnitell world? I see alot of decklists with them but I am not sure if that is carry over from preban world. I am not a big fan of a 4th color splash, and am wondering how needed it really is in the new metagame.

Also Thoughtseize, main or sideboard? I see it alot both ways, I kinda want to run them main myself.

[order]

So I am just getting into this deck after finally trading into some goyfs. I am about to play it for the first time in a weekly event. I was curious, How important are the Meddling Mages in a post omnitell world? I see alot of decklists with them but I am not sure if that is carry over from preban world. I am not a big fan of a 4th color splash, and am wondering how needed it really is in the new metagame.

Also Thoughtseize, main or sideboard? I see it alot both ways, I kinda want to run them main myself.

Think meddling Mage is important in our side. He is very good against any combo and useful against miracles.
Thoughtseize depends on your meta. In my build I replace one for for seize and it is working great

[AustinP]

split finals again in my normal wednesday night legacy tournament running same list as last week except i replaced sylvan library out of the side with another surgical extraction

miracles 2-0 win
nicfit 2-0 win
reanimator draw

miracles 2-0 win
split finals with reanimator

loving the deck right now!

[Krimson Viper]

Hey guys, what do think about my current my sideboard strategy:


Miracles - I like keeping fow to stop entreat/jace
-3x baleful -1x bayou -1x abrupt decay -1x toxic deluge
+2x needle +1x golgari charm + 2x meddling mage + 1x scrubland

Mirror
-3x force of will
+ 2x desfigure +1x hymn to tourach

Bug Delver
(With hymn+lili version) -3x fow +2x desfigure +1x golgari charm
(Stifle version) -2x hymn +2x desfigure

Elves
+1x graffdigger cage +2x meddling mage +1x scrubland +2x thoughtseize +2x desfigure +1x night of soul betrayal +1x golgari charm
-3x baleful -2x tarmogoyf -2x ancestral vision -1x forest -1x jace, tms -2x shardless (or liliana - not sure)

Infect (discart is better then fow here)
+2x thoughtseize +1x hymn to tourach +2x needle +2x desfigure +1x night of soul betrayal
-4x ancestral vision -1x jace,tms -1x toxic deluge(baleful is better) -2x tarmogoyf -1x fow(low-blue-count. Maybe cut 100%?)

Sneak Attack
+2x thoughtseize +1x hymn +1x golgari charm +3x meddling mage +1 scrubland +1 fow +2 needle
-3x baleful -4x abrupt decay -1x pulse -1x toxic deluge -1x bayou -1x tarmogoyf

Grixis Delver (with grumag + young pyromancer)
-3x fow -1x thoughtseize
+2x desfigure +1 night of the soul's betrayal +1x golgari charm

Burn
-1x jace, tms -1x thoughtseize -1x maelstrom pulse -1x toxic deluge
+2x desfigure +1x fow +1x hymn to tourach

BR Lands: ( Never played against. Do not know how to side)
+3x meddling mage +1x scrubland(stop p.fire) +2x pithing needle +1x fow +2x thoughtseize
-1x toxic deluge -1x bayou -1x maelstrom -2x hymn -4x ?????



----------------

My current list
4x polluted delta
4x verdant catacombs
2x misty rainforest
3x underground sea
2x bayou
2x tropical island
1x swamp
1x forest
2x wasteland
1x tar pit

4x tarmogoyf
4x deathrite shaman
4x shardless agent
3x baleful strix

1x jace, the mind sculptor
2x liliana of the veil
4x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse (not in love with it)
1x toxic deluge

4x ancestral visions
4x brainstorm

3x force of will
2x hymn to tourach
1x toughtseize

SIDE
3x meddling mage
1x scrubland
1x force of will
2x toughtseize
1x hymn to tourach
2x pithing needle
1x grafdigger cage
1x golgari charm
1x night of the soul's betrayal
2x desfigure

Against Miracles, I'm not sure you want the Mage package here. They have plenty of removal and I'm not sure what you would name? Even if you were to bring it in, the deck is base BG, so remove a Tropical Island for the Scrubland. Some Miracle decks are running Blood Moon, so keeping your two basics might be a good move. I think Charm is a good card to bring in too. Kills Rest In Peace, which I'm expecting to come back.

Same advice I've been given with the deck, when in the Mirror.

I forgot that BUG Delver has two variants, but I would probably take Force out against both versions. Not much you want to counter that you couldn't take care of most of the time. Again, I could be wrong, I'm still fairly new to the deck.

Elves seems pretty abismal. I would keep agree on most of what you've said, except for siding out Jace. However, I lean on Jace as another win condition. I would probably toss out Forces since you already have the Mages in, keeping in Jace and the two Agents.

Dragging this out, like most of our matches, seems to be where we're at. Getting to Jace is a game breaker, since you bounce everything or keeps them off pumps and Inkmoth off the top. I have been trying the Force approach, but I don't like that angle, so next time I play against it I'll take it out. I am using Charm, but it hurts you too if Strix is out, but I think if you pull the trigger on Charm you're in a bad spot any way. Take Pulse out. It's likely to get countered and not enough targets to really warrant it. Keep Goyf in, because t's our finisher.

I agree with everything but cutting Goyf and Bayou. Leave a Needle in the board and take out the Tropical. Beware of Blood Moon of course.

Definitely Forces and Lili out and Night and Disfigures in for sure. Charm in, maybe Hymn and maybe keeping in Thoughtseize, while bringing in another Thoughtseize? So: out Two Lili, three Forces and in Night, two Disfigures, Charm, and Hymn. Depending on if you want Jace out or not, then replace him with the a Thoughtseize.

Definitely a hard deck for this deck. I would probably take Strix out before I take Jace out though. Searing Blaze and Blood are cards, as is Smash to Smithereens. Strix probably won't last long and won't do anything on the board really, but this decision probably depends on on the play or draw. So: out three Strix and Deluge with Hymn, two Disfigure, and Force coming in.

Against any Lands deck I definitely would bring in graveyard hate that actually removes the grave. I've never really like Cage, I would probably out that card for Nihil Spellbomb. Mage would probably be best here naming Punishing Fire and Life From the Loam. Lots of dead cards here. I would probably keep that fourth Force in the board. It's not going to do much. I don't see Thoughtseize helping much either. I would rather hit lands to go to the bin with Hymn have them work for their lands. So: out Pulse, Deluge, Thoughtseize, two Abrupt Decay, and Tropical Island for three Mages, Scrubland, and two Needle.

My two, mostly untested, cents.

By the way, thank you for inspiring me to actually critically think side board strategies. I'll post mine in a few days. Still thinking of a proper fifteenth card for my board in my build.

[Svyelunite]

Elves seems pretty abismal.

Against any Lands deck I definitely would bring in graveyard hate that actually removes the grave. I've never really like Cage, I would probably out that card for Nihil Spellbomb.

Cage is great against Elves however. Mixing up your yard hate is always a safer bet. 4x DRS in the MD helps a bunch against Reanimator decks. MM helps with the Punishing Fire issue because cards like RiP aren't an option with how heavily Shardless relies on its GY. Cage is a good catchall vs Reanimating decks (Reanimator, Oops all Spells, Dredge) while also helping soften up Elves and Maverick (Basically anything that uses GSZ).

[AustinP]

just wanted to say, toxic deluge is mvp vs mentor miracles... won an almost unwinnable game because of it!

[Whitefaces]

I don't remember ever seeing a Shardless list without discard in the MD, can you post an example list please?

Like this one - http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16933&iddeck=126969 - winner of Ovino.

It sacrifices G1 vs combo for a great matchup vs fair decks.

[Sigi85]

Hi to everyone! i'm new in the forum.
It is already a couple of years that i'm playing Bug Shardless, apart from the period of treasure cruise. Until the last Ovino i played it without the White spalsh,ending with a
7-2 score, finishing 21st , loosing only from Jund and Burn; but now that dig is gone, i see that there are a lot of Sneak and Show and Elves in my meta.
I'd like to know from the forum why Containment Priest isn't played in this deck, in my opinion seems perfect for the SB plane against this type of deck
(Dredge, Reanimato too) and i'd like to play it ,over 2 copies of Meddling Mage, that is strong too, but more difficoult to play against this type of deck,where they have a lot of out and closer!
Thanks for your opinions guys!:smile:

[Whitefaces]

Hi to everyone! i'm new in the forum.
It is already a couple of years that i'm playing Bug Shardless, apart from the period of treasure cruise. Until the last Ovino i played it without the White spalsh,ending with a
7-2 score, finishing 21st , loosing only from Jund and Burn; but now that dig is gone, i see that there are a lot of Sneak and Show and Elves in my meta.
I'd like to know from the forum why Containment Priest isn't played in this deck, in my opinion seems perfect for the SB plane against this type of deck
(Dredge, Reanimato too) and i'd like to play it ,over 2 copies of Meddling Mage, that is strong too, but more difficoult to play against this type of deck,where they have a lot of out and closer!
Thanks for your opinions guys!:smile:

I have a Containment Priest in my SB at the moment, and had two for a short period of time before DTT. As you say, it's fantastic vs elves and Sneak and Show and nice vs Dredge too. It may go back to two copies if the meta progresses in the same direction it's going in now.

This is what I'm playing currently. As I mentioned a few posts ago, no discard MD as the SB is strong enough vs combo to sacrifice G1 (that's the plan anyway!)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Visions
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest

SB
4 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
1 Scrubland
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Notion Thief

[wcm8]

I think Lumbering Falls is worth considering as a singleton. Like Creeping Tar Pit, it provides a method of late-game inevitability against grindy control decks. I think this would further help shore up the Miracles matchup, as Hexproof reduces the options they have to deal with it. People in the Team America thread were not enthusiastic about LFalls, but I think that's because the mana cost is more prohibitive there. BUG Control is more capable of establishing a board state to take advantage of it. The Miracles matchup tends to end up in topdeck wars, and a manland can take advantage of this scenario.

That said, I still think CTarpit is a worthwhile consideration, especially as it can deal with Planeswalkers through a wall of blockers.

Blood Moon is still a problem of course, but that's why I run a couple basics and try to hold up mana for ADecay and GCharm against decks running it.

[Whitefaces]

I think Lumbering Falls is worth considering as a singleton. Like Creeping Tar Pit, it provides a method of late-game inevitability against grindy control decks. I think this would further help shore up the Miracles matchup, as Hexproof reduces the options they have to deal with it. People in the Team America thread were not enthusiastic about LFalls, but I think that's because the mana cost is more prohibitive there. BUG Control is more capable of establishing a board state to take advantage of it. The Miracles matchup tends to end up in topdeck wars, and a manland can take advantage of this scenario.

That said, I still think CTarpit is a worthwhile consideration, especially as it can deal with Planeswalkers through a wall of blockers.

Blood Moon is still a problem of course, but that's why I run a couple basics and try to hold up mana for ADecay and GCharm against decks running it.

That was me in the TA thread, and while there is more merit to consider it in Shardless, the power level just isn't here imo. One of the biggest powers of tar pit is it threatens to deal with an opposing jace on curve, forcing them to play something different or +2 off the bat. Falls doesn't achieve this, the body is outmatched by most things and Hexproof is only relevant vs miracles as pretty much every other midrange/control deck will be running Wasteland (which Hexproof obviously does nothing against). The Miracles matchup is already fine, so the risk of a cipt land vs tempo decks for such a small return isn't worth it.

But that's just my opinion, maybe you've tried it with good results? I've not even played a tar pit for about 2 years as I hate losing tempo with land drops. When the decks lategame is as strong as Shardless', risking not getting to that stage isn't worth it to me.

[wcm8]

But that's just my opinion, maybe you've tried it with good results? I've not even played a tar pit for about 2 years as I hate losing tempo with land drops. When the decks lategame is as strong as Shardless', risking not getting that stage isn't worth it to me.

Yeah, Tar Pit has actually been quite stellar for me, especially against Miracles. With how common UWx Miracles is currently, and seeing as it may end up being among the most commonly played Tier 1 Decks going forward, having a card with low investment cost to shore it up seems fine.

I feel that BUG sometimes struggles to land the last few points of damage against some midrange and control decks due to its lack of Burn and Nimble Mongoose. This is where having a rugged threat that dodges both being countered *and* targeted/sorcery-speed removal is good (and also isn't reliant on the graveyard). LFalls is almost as good as Thrun in this regard, minus taking up valuable sideboard or maindeck slots. It's not difficult to cut the 10th fetchland (in a Lejay-esque build) for this land.

I realize coming into play tapped is a problem, but we have plenty of alternative mana sources. BUG Control naturally tends to skew towards the late game, so the downside is mitigated. Obviously this card is not being considered for being useful against decks running Wasteland. But there are a number of plodding control and midrange decks where this could help swing for the last few bits of damage, whereas any other threat would get killed on-sight by various forms of removal or an active Liliana. I've had plenty of games against Jund and Miracles end up in the sort of gamestate where having a LFalls would be ideal, and yet a Tar Pit would just die right away to a PFire or StP. There are even some games where the same thing happens against decks like RUG Delver -- they don't *always* have Wasteland, and the winner often comes down to who can resolve and maintain a threat first. LFalls can't even be countered in case they've been sandbagging a FoW for your threat.

Ultimately, this is just one slot I am talking about here. I don't think it would work all that well in multiples. But as a singleton it could prove to be quite useful. Perhaps even moreso if there's a Life from the Loam somewhere in the 75.

[ironclad8690]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
1 Scrubland
2 Meddling Mage
2 Disfigure
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Thoughtseize
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Notion Thief
1 Vendilion Clique

Recorded a couple of matches today. I think I misplayed in the 2 that I lost, but I would appreciate comments on either gameplay or decklist (no sound unfortunately):

VS Elves (2-1) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbBo3PDGtNU&list=UU4bFitJpqGJ_tjE3tG_PKpQ&index=4)

VS Storm (2-0) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F37X_O3gzDE&list=UU4bFitJpqGJ_tjE3tG_PKpQ&index=3)

VS Nic Fit (1-2) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfefbJedE38&list=UU4bFitJpqGJ_tjE3tG_PKpQ&index=2)

VS Elves (1-2) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xDj6_FPZiU&list=UU4bFitJpqGJ_tjE3tG_PKpQ&index=1)

[ironclad8690]

Bahra was just streaming some Euroshard: http://www.twitch.tv/bahra_/v/22125388

[matunos]

Hexproof is only relevant vs miracles as pretty much every other midrange/control deck will be running Wasteland (which Hexproof obviously does nothing against).

Say what? They can't wasteland it once it's active and has hexproof.

Lumbering Falls is a lot less susceptible to Wasteland than Creeping Tar Pit.

[Whitefaces]

Say what? They can't wasteland it once it's active and has hexproof.

Lumbering Falls is a lot less susceptible to Wasteland than Creeping Tar Pit.

So they just waste in response to the activation. If you want to hold up 4 mana to play around their waste, sure...but you'll lose the game.

[matunos]

So they just waste in response to the activation. If you want to hold up 4 mana to play around their waste, sure...but you'll lose the game.

Well clearly you don't bother activating it with a live wasteland unless you have a ton of mana. As long as you do have 4 mana up, they can't really go for the wasteland. It's awkward for sure, but again, it's a little less vulnerable than CTP.

[ironclad8690]

Well clearly you don't bother activating it with a live wasteland unless you have a ton of mana. As long as you do have 4 mana up, they can't really go for the wasteland. It's awkward for sure, but again, it's a little less vulnerable than CTP.

Not trying to stifle creativity, but 1 more mana + can be blocked just doesn't feel good enough.

In other news, looks like many people defaulted to this deck for the legacy open, and it looks like it performed pretty well (Pendelhavens aside).

Put 4 people into the top 32 of the SCG open, and 14 people into day 2, more than any other archetype.

[btm10]

Not trying to stifle creativity, but 1 more mana + can be blocked just doesn't feel good enough.

In other news, looks like many people defaulted to this deck for the legacy open, and it looks like it performed pretty well (Pendelhavens aside).

Put 4 people into the top 32 of the SCG open, and 14 people into day 2, more than any other archetype.

I'm not sure what day 1 looked like for Shardless, but day 2 wasn't that good - it put 4 players into the top 32, which basically matches its metagame penetration. Three of those four were in the top 16, and two of the three were in the Top 8, but apparently there were some odd breakers going into the last round of Swiss, so I'm going to refrain from commenting on its enrichment in the Top 8/Top 16.

I still think the deck is very well positioned, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. And I'd definitely expect more Blood Moons soon.

[matunos]

Not trying to stifle creativity, but 1 more mana + can be blocked just doesn't feel good enough.

I agree, although it is probably better against (non-Mentor) Miracles.

[Whitefaces]

I'm not sure what day 1 looked like for Shardless, but day 2 wasn't that good - it put 4 players into the top 32, which basically matches its metagame penetration. Three of those four were in the top 16, and two of the three were in the Top 8, but apparently there were some odd breakers going into the last round of Swiss, so I'm going to refrain from commenting on its enrichment in the Top 8/Top 16.

I still think the deck is very well positioned, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. And I'd definitely expect more Blood Moons soon.

14 copies for day two with 8 copies being the second highest archetype is a good showing, the deck is very well positioned.

[matunos]

FWIW, I've just started testing with Volrath's Stronghold and it seems promising so far for those grindy matchups. I extracted value even against Miracles tonight when my opponent did things like red blast or block my attacking agent with a Snapcaster Mage.

Recycling Strixes and Agents is just so much value.

[Whitefaces]

FWIW, I've just started testing with Volrath's Stronghold and it seems promising so far for those grindy matchups. I extracted value even against Miracles tonight when my opponent did things like red blast or block my attacking agent with a Snapcaster Mage.

Recycling Strixes and Agents is just so much value.

It's certainly a strong card, but have you had much of a problem with it only producing colourless mana? Not casting Strix or Hymn on curve is a problem.

[wnorris]

Hey guys, I had a local tournament yesterday and did pretty well. I really love this deck right now, it feels really capable; coming from BUG Delver I never feel the deck peter out like delver can.

Heres the list I played:

Creatures: 14
2x Strix
4x Goyf
4x DRS
4x Agent

I/S: 20
4x Brainstorm
3x Ancestral Vision
2x Hymn
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
2x thoughtseize
4x Decay
3x Force of will

Walkers: 4
2x Liliana of the veil
2x Jace the mind sculptor

Land: 22
1x Bayou
2x Tar-Pit
1x forest
1x swamp
2x tropical island
3x underground sea
4x polluted delta
4x verdant catacombs
2x misty rainforest
2x wasteland

Side:
1x Scrubland
3x Meddling mage
1x nihil spellbomb
2x disfigure
1x thoughtseize
1x pithing needle
1x null rod
2x golgari charm
1x sylvan library
1x force
1x grafs cage

R1: Grixis Delver (0-2)
- I really think I could have won this game. They were super grindy and I mulliganed both games to still not awesome hands.Stifle hit me hard once or twice, and was great against agent. Overall I think this mathcup should be a win.

R2: UR Delver (2-0)
- I played a lot of big tarmogoyfs and he just couldn't deal with them. Toxic deluge was a house here.

R3: Shardless BUG (1-1)
- I'm bummed we went to time before the end of the third game, because this was a great match. We both suspended at least 2 visions in each game and cast them both. He forced one of my visions in game 1 right after his own had popped and I couldn't catch up. Game 2 was a grind fest, but both jace and liliana were amazing!!

R4: Nic Fit (2-1)
- These were very grindy games. He ultimately has better bombs in the late game, so I tried to keep his resources low with Hymn, wasteland, and decay. Ancestral visions is what separates these 2 decks, it is so good.

[Ralf]

How do you guys board against Jund ?

[Whitefaces]

How do you guys board against Jund ?

Depends on the SB.

Mine is simply (list below)
-2 FoW
+2 Leyline of the Void

Shardless generally needs to be the aggressor here as Punishing Fire is a trump in the MU. I have a Loam in the MD that mitigates this though as I can waste them off Groves.

If you don't have access to this plan then I'd remove any discard and try and win with tempo. Keeping FoW in vs Jund is wrong for every other U deck, but in this case the CA from visions, agent, strix etc makes up for it and FoWing an early DRS, goyf, bob or lili can set you up nicely.

But as I said, it's really dependent on the build. I also don't play discard MD for example.

----------------------------------

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Visions
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest

SB
4 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
1 Scrubland
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Notion Thief

[btm10]

14 copies for day two with 8 copies being the second highest archetype is a good showing, the deck is very well positioned.

I said that it was well positioned, and its my primary deck right now. But it only did as well as expected on day 2 (it was about an eigth of the field and took an eigth of the Top 32) and we can't say anything about how Shardless did on day one to put 14 people into day 2. Just trying to properly assess the data.


How do you guys board against Jund ?

It varies a lot build to build. Obviously Force comes out. I tend to leave somed iscard in on the play, bring in whatever removal I have in the board, Golgari Charm, and some graveyard hate to deal with Punishing Fire. If you're running Loam in the board, this is a good matchup for it.

[tescrin]

Well clearly you don't bother activating it with a live wasteland unless you have a ton of mana. As long as you do have 4 mana up, they can't really go for the wasteland. It's awkward for sure, but again, it's a little less vulnerable than CTP.

Please no. Lumbering falls is a garbage pile of garbage by comparison to CTP. They have a goyf/goose/TNN etc..? You can't attack. Tapping for black/blue is also more important for a deck running UU and BB spells. Your green spells are all single green.

[AustinP]

how did this deck drop from DTB? the decks in there are whack right now....

[Fox]

Lumbering Falls is a lot less susceptible to Wasteland than Creeping Tar Pit.
I think lumbering falls is probably better used coming in from the sideboard, to supplement CTP against miracles (only?). Might be too narrow outside a small, miracles-heavy meta.

[matunos]

It's certainly a strong card, but have you had much of a problem with it only producing colourless mana? Not casting Strix or Hymn on curve is a problem.

Only when I go a stretch of drawing it and only one other land in my opener and first few draws.

It hasn't been any worse really than having a third Wasteland or for that matter much worse than a Creeping Tar Pit (which sure you can play tapped T1, but then you're off curve for Deathrite or Visions).

[matunos]

It varies a lot build to build. Obviously Force comes out. I tend to leave somed iscard in on the play, bring in whatever removal I have in the board, Golgari Charm, and some graveyard hate to deal with Punishing Fire. If you're running Loam in the board, this is a good matchup for it.

JTMS is also terrible against Jund. I'm not even sure about Liliana, they seem to like discarding to her more than we do.

[matunos]

Please no. Lumbering falls is a garbage pile of garbage by comparison to CTP. They have a goyf/goose/TNN etc..? You can't attack. Tapping for black/blue is also more important for a deck running UU and BB spells. Your green spells are all single green.

I didn't say it was good, just less susceptible to Wasteland.

[matunos]

I think lumbering falls is probably better used coming in from the sideboard, to supplement CTP against miracles (only?). Might be too narrow outside a small, miracles-heavy meta.

My favorite SB cards for Miracles are Pithing Needle and Null Rod. That's probably enough SB hate for them, but I do bring in Golgari Charm too (Blood Moon or sometimes Counterbalance, the occasional Supreme Verdict, or maybe once in a while clear out their wizards), and if you have a Maelstrom Pulse in the board, might as bring that in.

[Tantarus]

how did this deck drop from DTB? the decks in there are whack right now....

No doubt, Omnitell is still there...

[Ephemeron]

how did this deck drop from DTB? the decks in there are whack right now....

They have some sort of algorithm that looks at deck performance over a certain time period. It's not accounting for what the meta is now now that DTT has been banned. So for the past X months (whatever it is), Shardless WASN'T a deck to beat and Omni was. It's obviously reversed now but it'll stay like this on the forum for a few months until the next update.

[wnorris]

How do you all feel about tasabo's web in the side at big events? Is it enough to improve the lands matchup?

[Whitefaces]

How do you all feel about tasabo's web in the side at big events? Is it enough to improve the lands matchup?

Waste of a SB slot in my opinion. If you have Meddling Mages in your SB then you have all the tools to win. Plan is to get one down on Fire and any following that on Loam or Gamble, control their GY with DRS and then using the rest of the disruption in the deck you should be able to win easily enough.

[order]

Regarding RG lands matchup. I have been crushed really hard in my trainnings. Played s lot of times and the match seems to be 70-30 in their favor.

This is my current strategy. Do you guys have a better plan?
+3x meddling mage +1x scrubland(stop p.fire) +1x pithing needle +1x fow +2x thoughtseize
-3xbaleful -1x toxic deluge -1x maelstrom -2x hymn -1liliana

I play with thoughtseize to know their hand and play meddling mage according.

My current list is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-DTB-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control&p=910787&viewfull=1#post910787

[btm10]

Regarding RG lands matchup. I have been crushed really hard in my trainnings. Played s lot of times and the match seems to be 70-30 in their favor.

This is my current strategy. Do you guys have a better plan?
+3x meddling mage +1x scrubland(stop p.fire) +1x pithing needle +1x fow +2x thoughtseize
-3xbaleful -1x toxic deluge -1x maelstrom -2x hymn -1liliana

I play with thoughtseize to know their hand and play meddling mage according.

My current list is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-DTB-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control&p=910787&viewfull=1#post910787

You absolutely need graveyard hate, and Hymn is better than Thoughtseize because it can hit lands. If you bring in Meddling Mage you need the first to name Punishing Fire and the second to name Loam. It doesn't matter what's in their hand, because you aren't going to beat them with active Loam or Punishing Fire. Your own Loam is worth bringing in if you have it. If you expect to see a lot of Lands, Tsabo's Web is an option, but more graveyard hate is probably both better and more flexible.

[kingtk3]

I currently have 2 surgical extraction in my side but I'm wondering if Extirpate would be better: what do you guys think?

[order]

I currently have 2 surgical extraction in my side but I'm wondering if Extirpate would be better: what do you guys think?

I am planning to add it as well. I think surgical is better because it is a cost-zero graveyard answer. You are adding it aggainst loam decks, graveyard combo and p.fire decks. Any of them (regarding reanimator) cares about split second.

[Fox]

I currently have 2 surgical extraction in my side but I'm wondering if Extirpate would be better: what do you guys think?
The important thing is that you don't try to extirpate a p-fire vs an untapped grove; split second means nothing to mana abilities. As far as mana cost goes; having phyrexian mana cost (surgical in hand) makes a turn 2-3 shardless a much safer play vs combo.

[infiniteJ]

Planning on playing shardless this weekend. I expect miracles and shardless to be everywhere. Anyone have any good tech for the grindy mirrors? I prefer the maindeck popularized by Lejay without discard and without baleful strix and the sideboard with meddling mages.

[westcoasthorus]

Planning on playing shardless this weekend. I expect miracles and shardless to be everywhere. Anyone have any good tech for the grindy mirrors? I prefer the maindeck popularized by Lejay without discard and without baleful strix and the sideboard with meddling mages.

In my LGS there's 2 other potential Shardless players, so a singleton Notion Thief seems appropriate. Being able to steal Ancestrals is huge.

[wizard_of_gore]

Planning on playing shardless this weekend. I expect miracles and shardless to be everywhere. Anyone have any good tech for the grindy mirrors? I prefer the maindeck popularized by Lejay without discard and without baleful strix and the sideboard with meddling mages.

if you expect mirror, player with more value will win, so:

- leave some number of strixes in mainboard - they are 2 for 1 and they are good at blocking their goyfs
- side out FOWs in g2 and/or g3, and maybe thoughtseize if you play it. Leave hymn in mainboard

good sb choices are
- misdirection because it can redirect hymn and ancestral vision
- notion thief
- sylvan library
- some number of removals, extra creatures like v. clique and planeswalkers.

Against miracles, it can be really tricky. They tend to side out cbalances, so you may sit with decay as dead card, but anyway it can hit snapcasters and cliques (or mentors).
Side out toxic deluge, strixes, and some number of wastelands, and bring in combination of cliques, sylvan library, pithing needle, krosan grip, pernicious deed (against angels), maelstrom pulse (against jaces), notion thief and so on.

[sleeper]

I'm running Meddling Mages in the side and since I'm farily new to Legacy, what matches do you bring it in against and what cards do you name? I know they come in for combo matches, but what are the key pieces?

[order]

I'm running Meddling Mages in the side and since I'm farily new to Legacy, what matches do you bring it in against and what cards do you name? I know they come in for combo matches, but what are the key pieces?

You are bringing mages mostly agains combo. Naming will change a lot according each game state but generally speaking:

Storm:
1st Infernal tutor
2nd Tendrils
3rd LED

Sneak Show
1st SnT
2st Sneak Attack
3rd Pyroclasm

Elves (they usually side out glipmse agains us)
1st Natural Order
2nd Green Sun

Loam Decks
1st Punishing Fire
2nd Life from the loam/Croping Rotation

Dredge/Oops all spells
1st Dread return
2st Dread return
3st Dread return

Belcher
1st Belcher
2nd Empty the warrens

Reanimator
1nd Reanimate
2rd Exume

[infiniteJ]

You are bringing mages mostly agains combo. Naming will change a lot according each game state but generally speaking:

Storm:
1st Infernal tutor
2nd Tendrils
3rd LED

Sneak Show
1st SnT
2st Sneak Attack
3rd Pyroclasm

Elves (they usually side out glipmse agains us)
1st Natural Order
2nd Green Sun

Loam Decks
1st Punishing Fire
2nd Life from the loam/Croping Rotation

Dredge/Oops all spells
1st Dread return
2st Dread return
3st Dread return

Belcher
1st Belcher
2nd Empty the warrens

Reanimator
1nd Reanimate
2rd Exume

This is a great response. It's unfortunate that the meddling mage plan is so well known now. I'm debating not using it in seattle. That way if combo brings in decay or pyroclasm itll be mostly dead.

I will add:

If they already passed with 3 mana and/or you can play lilliana, the first can name sneak attack. If you don't think they knew to bring in pyroclasm, the 3rd can name Pyroblast/REB but that's a crap shoot.
Against manaless dredge, the second can name cabal therapy to cut off another sac outlet.
Against storm, if they don't have access to green mana or you don't think they brought in decay, you can often just name Tendrils and win. Unless it's TES, in which case you should prob name burning wish. Nice thing is vs TES you have deluge and pulse to hit their tokens.
Against reanimator, if you have a deathrite active, you could consider naming show and tell.
Against Elves, if they have the symbiote/visionary engine active, I've had to name visionary before.

Don't overthink it though. Name what beats you.

[rkho]

I'm trying to finalize a sideboard for the GP this weekend. I don't have any byes, I'll be playing in LCQs on Friday and am looking to improve my matchups against Burn, D&T, and Sneak and Show. Here's what I'm working with so far:


MD:
1 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Jace, Vryn's PRodigy
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

SB:
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
3 Meddling Mage
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Notion Thief
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scrubland
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique

I have the following cards to pick and choose from for tweaking:


Options:
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Chill
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Disfigure
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Engineered Plague
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Life from the Loam
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Massacre
1 Meddling Mage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fant
2 Thougthseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsabo's Web
2 Unearth
2 Wasteland
1 Zuran Orb

I think ideally, I'd like to have a little more discard and removal, but I'm finding it a little difficult to shave things from my current board.

[SilkyPimP]

Playing Shardless in Seattle this weekend. On the fence about running leyline for lands and punishing fire as well as dredge and reanimator. I already have 6 spots taken up with 3 mage 2 priest and 1 scrubland. Leyline is great in multiple when I played it when cruise/dtt /lands were a big thing, But now that I have been testing against combo more I really want the mages and discard.

All opinions and comments are appreciated. Thanks!

Sideboard looks like
3 meddling mage
2 priest
1 scrubland
2 disfigure
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
2 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 seal of primordial
1 surgical

Also thinking of maybe some of these.

Nihil spellbomb
Chill
Leyline
V clique
Massacre
Night of souls betrayal
Engineered plague

[Sigi85]

Playing Shardless in Seattle this weekend. On the fence about running leyline for lands and punishing fire as well as dredge and reanimator. I already have 6 spots taken up with 3 mage 2 priest and 1 scrubland. Leyline is great in multiple when I played it when cruise/dtt /lands were a big thing, But now that I have been testing against combo more I really want the mages and discard.

All opinions and comments are appreciated. Thanks!

Sideboard looks like
3 meddling mage
2 priest
1 scrubland
2 disfigure
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
2 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 seal of primordial
1 surgical

Also thinking of maybe some of these.

Nihil spellbomb
Chill
Leyline
V clique
Massacre
Night of souls betrayal
Engineered plague

Hi!
I think depends from your main, how many discrds do you play?
Of your side i like really the 2 priest and 3 meddling (i'm playing this configuration) but maybe you need more discards effect (i'm running 3 tourach in main and 2 thoughtseize and 1 duress in side).
2 null rod 1 pithing needle and a seal for me are too much, are versatile cards but they go in the same match, you could cut a null rod and a seal for some discards effect!

I take the opportunity to ask something else about the deck:
- i see some list that run 21 lands(+1 scrubland in side), what do you think? i try this configuration, cutting a Creeping tar pit for a Tasigur, and for me is working really good!
- someone try the new Jace ?and what's the result?
- one things that i note is that we are very vulnerable to jace tms especially against miracle( maybe the second tar pit could help me)
- Notion Thief is so strong? every time i play in resp to jace effect or a Brainstorm he take or a Reb or a Swords.

Thanks for yours opinion!

[infiniteJ]

Hi!
I think depends from your main, how many discrds do you play?
Of your side i like really the 2 priest and 3 meddling (i'm playing this configuration) but maybe you need more discards effect (i'm running 3 tourach in main and 2 thoughtseize and 1 duress in side).
2 null rod 1 pithing needle and a seal for me are too much, are versatile cards but they go in the same match, you could cut a null rod and a seal for some discards effect!

I take the opportunity to ask something else about the deck:
- i see some list that run 21 lands(+1 scrubland in side), what do you think? i try this configuration, cutting a Creeping tar pit for a Tasigur, and for me is working really good!
- someone try the new Jace ?and what's the result?
- one things that i note is that we are very vulnerable to jace tms especially against miracle( maybe the second tar pit could help me)
- Notion Thief is so strong? every time i play in resp to jace effect or a Brainstorm he take or a Reb or a Swords.

Thanks for yours opinion!

I haven't tested some of things, but these would be my bs theories:

21 lands seems too low to me but I see some decks having success. I think it's prob ok if you're at 1 jace tms and only 2 wasteland. I like 4 wasteland.
New jace is something I want to try but I really don't think Shardless is optimized for him. I haven't tested him at all. In theory all you're flashing back is brainstorm and decay, and -2-0 is not that impactful. Lastly, it dies to everything and get's karakas bounced so...
Jace TMS is a big threat vs us but pulse and tarpit do help. I've cut tarpit recently though. Kind of want to slot him in as a 23rd land.
Notion thief looks great on paper but I've always had it die or get countered or Ive drawn it when it doesnt do anything. Im exploring other options in the slot like v clique, a third jace, or some non-blue source of control hate (like garruk above, but I don't love garruk).

-IJ

[infiniteJ]

Playing Shardless in Seattle this weekend. On the fence about running leyline for lands and punishing fire as well as dredge and reanimator. I already have 6 spots taken up with 3 mage 2 priest and 1 scrubland. Leyline is great in multiple when I played it when cruise/dtt /lands were a big thing, But now that I have been testing against combo more I really want the mages and discard.

All opinions and comments are appreciated. Thanks!

Sideboard looks like
3 meddling mage
2 priest
1 scrubland
2 disfigure
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
2 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 seal of primordial
1 surgical

Also thinking of maybe some of these.

Nihil spellbomb
Chill
Leyline
V clique
Massacre
Night of souls betrayal
Engineered plague

I agree 2 null rods is excessive w/ pithing needle.
I like spellbomb over surgical bc you can cascade into it and you can board it in vs miracles. Others like leyline.
Night of souls betrayal has been a beating and one of my favorite board cards. It's not great if you're running baleful strix though.
Engineered plague has always been a disappointment.
V clique is always a fine magic card.
Chill is great if you expect Burn, TES, and Sneak and show to some extent. If you expect more ANT than TES and not a lot of burn, then chill is a waste. Chill doesn't even single handedly win the burn match, and I've won several times without it as well. I think it's probably unnecessary.

[LarsLeif]

Nice to see so many people playing Meddling Mage, been a long time fan myself. Some general thoughts on them though:

Firstly, I see a lot of people running only 3 mages, which I don't like. Meddling Mage is fantastic in multiples and many games against combo are decided on drawing more than one, or at least drawing one early. It is also important to diversify your hate, and thus the 4th mage is a better call than the 5:th discard etc.

Secondly, because they are live vs all combo decks (and against lands, burn etc) I very much prefer to max out on them before I add priests, which are better vs some combo decks, but do nothing against ANT/TES and lands etc.

Lastly, the argument that people nowadays pack more answers to MM (thus making them a worse option than usual) is slightly flawed. While it is true that most combo decks are equipped to deal with them post-board, doing so isn't that favourable for the combo deck. Each time combo decks have to devote a card to deal with one of your answers, that's one less card for them to actually employ their main game plan of going off. This makes mages a good way of not locking down, but slowing down combo decks just enough for you to find the next piece of disruption, and then the next, and after a while, your CA will make this 1-for-1 trade between your hate and the combo decks countermeasures very favourable for you. Sort of the like the deck operates against fair decks as well: trade 1-for-1 and then pull ahead with visions/jace. Apart from Elves, no combo deck can generate any meaningful CA over the course of a long game (unless they go off that is).

Right, good luck at the GP and may the cascades be ever in your favour! :)

[Whitefaces]

Nice to see so many people playing Meddling Mage, been a long time fan myself. Some general thoughts on them though:

Firstly, I see a lot of people running only 3 mages, which I don't like. Meddling Mage is fantastic in multiples and many games against combo are decided on drawing more than one, or at least drawing one early. It is also important to diversify your hate, and thus the 4th mage is a better call than the 5:th discard etc.

Secondly, because they are live vs all combo decks (and against lands, burn etc) I very much prefer to max out on them before I add priests, which are better vs some combo decks, but do nothing against ANT/TES and lands etc.

Lastly, the argument that people nowadays pack more answers to MM (thus making them a worse option than usual) is slightly flawed. While it is true that most combo decks are equipped to deal with them post-board, doing so isn't that favourable for the combo deck. Each time combo decks have to devote a card to deal with one of your answers, that's one less card for them to actually employ their main game plan of going off. This makes mages a good way of not locking down, but slowing down combo decks just enough for you to find the next piece of disruption, and then the next, and after a while, your CA will make this 1-for-1 trade between your hate and the combo decks countermeasures very favourable for you. Sort of the like the deck operates against fair decks as well: trade 1-for-1 and then pull ahead with visions/jace. Apart from Elves, no combo deck can generate any meaningful CA over the course of long game (unless they go off that is).

Right, good luck at the GP and may the cascades be ever in your favour! :)

Great post, I totally agree! 4 MM in 4 Goyf out makes SB tables nice and clean and keeps your curve in check.

[TLK]

Loaning this deck out to a friend for the GP this weekend and he needs some sideboarding advice against the top decks. His current list is the following:


1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil


S/B:


1 Disfigure
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
2 Meddling Mage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Notion Thief
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scrubland
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wasteland


Any help is greatly appreciated.

[order]

What do you guys think about jace vryn? Is it worthy? We do not have a lot of grave targets..

[ironclad8690]

What do you guys think about jace vryn? Is it worthy? We do not have a lot of grave targets..

Meh, I'd rather play another Baleful Strix.

[tescrin]

To the guys talking about grave hate:
* Please don't run Leyline of the Void. It's terrible unless you're gonna run 4; because you basically have to mull for it.
* Nihil Spellbomb is a beast for the Exile type (which you should always have 1-2 of.) Lands Turn 1 and is good enough to stop dredge if you're patient as they have a lot to play around when you have it. The cantrip is useful for finding more gravehate (or w/e) and it just works as a nice safety valve.

The reason it works so well is because as a DRS deck it buys you time so that their second attempt to get things going with the grave is likely to be stymied as well. Yeah, RiP or Cage are better when you get them against Dredge/Storm, but Spellbomb does 90% of the work IME anyway.

Used in conjunction with countermagic, discard, and other stuff, Spellbomb has treated me very well over the couple years of legacy I've done, and I can't recommend it enough.

[ironclad8690]

Sideboarding tips:

Board out discard vs tempo/control strategies, but not blade decks necessarily and keep hymn vs other midrange BG/x decks.

Board in removal vs other midrange and tempo and board out FOW and thoughtseize in some combination. Death and taxes boards in Wilt-Leaf Liege so be careful with Hymns and Liliana.

Board in meddling mages, artifact based hate, and discard against the spell based combo decks for the abrupt decay/deluge/pulse slots, possibly with an out to Empty the Warrens.

Vs loam based decks, board in meddling mages and grave hate, board out discard.

This is not hard and fast, and many people will disagree about the effectiveness of discard/countermagic in certain situations. Sideboarding with this deck is actually pretty intuitive because usually half of your cards will be dead or bad.

[LarsLeif]

To the guys talking about grave hate:
* Please don't run Leyline of the Void. It's terrible unless you're gonna run 4; because you basically have to mull for it.
* Nihil Spellbomb is a beast for the Exile type (which you should always have 1-2 of.) Lands Turn 1 and is good enough to stop dredge if you're patient as they have a lot to play around when you have it. The cantrip is useful for finding more gravehate (or w/e) and it just works as a nice safety valve.

The reason it works so well is because as a DRS deck it buys you time so that their second attempt to get things going with the grave is likely to be stymied as well. Yeah, RiP or Cage are better when you get them against Dredge/Storm, but Spellbomb does 90% of the work IME anyway.

Used in conjunction with countermagic, discard, and other stuff, Spellbomb has treated me very well over the couple years of legacy I've done, and I can't recommend it enough.

The 1-off leyline of the void is not there to empty graveyards, it's there to break up loam/PF-synergies, something that spellbomb does poorly. You also don't have to mull to it at all since it has a mana cost that is very castable later in a game (if you have it early you can often start the game with it anyway). Not to say spellbomb is bad but please read the thread and understand why people advocate certain cards before dismissing them and offer other alternatives that doesn't do the same thing.

[tescrin]

The 1-off leyline of the void is not there to empty graveyards, it's there to break up loam/PF-synergies, something that spellbomb does poorly. You also don't have to mull to it at all since it has a mana cost that is very castable later in a game (if you have it early you can often start the game with it anyway). Not to say spellbomb is bad but please read the thread and understand why people advocate certain cards before dismissing them and offer other alternatives that doesn't do the same thing.
Against a deck with 8 tutors for 4 Wastelands, 3-4 Loams, and 4 tutors for loam, and sometimes Ghost Quarters and basically semi-ancestral recalls (sometimes multiple) every turn starting Turn 2 or so... you're going to reliably hit 4 mana in a deck that has 4 DRS and 2 basics?

Why do you even need an answer at that point? You made it to T3/T4 with a perfect manabase and are hardcasting 4-drops. You could just win instead if we're in magical christmas land.

That's why 1 mana answers that tempo your opponent out are good; because you actually aren't locked out on T3/T4 because you messed with them. Exiling the grave in response to Loam is fine; because it takes them a long time to get going after a reset unless you've allowed them to stock their hand with Thickets and stuff.


Now.. I'll admit that Void is better if you can get it down; hard to remove, permanent, etc.. but.. I mean.. you're stretching it here. If you're splashing white; just swap in Meddling Mages and RIP. Fuck the Void. RiP is castable and good and if you board into Mages to screw with their Pfire/Loams, it seems fine.

Even at that; if you're expecting to cast it and don't need the exiling thing; you could run Planar Void (which can be worked around) but at least you can make it to 1 mana reliably.

[kingtk3]

...If you're splashing white; just swap in Meddling Mages and RIP. Fuck the Void. RiP is castable and good and if you board into Mages to screw with their Pfire/Loams, it seems fine.

Even at that; if you're expecting to cast it and don't need the exiling thing; you could run Planar Void (which can be worked around) but at least you can make it to 1 mana reliably.

Except that RIP and planar void work on your grave too, thus disabling your DRS. I prefer a couple of Surgical extraction instead: it's not a permanent but it is a permanent solution to what I need to remove.

[LarsLeif]

Against a deck with 8 tutors for 4 Wastelands, 3-4 Loams, and 4 tutors for loam, and sometimes Ghost Quarters and basically semi-ancestral recalls (sometimes multiple) every turn starting Turn 2 or so... you're going to reliably hit 4 mana in a deck that has 4 DRS and 2 basics?

Why do you even need an answer at that point? You made it to T3/T4 with a perfect manabase and are hardcasting 4-drops. You could just win instead if we're in magical christmas land.

That's why 1 mana answers that tempo your opponent out are good; because you actually aren't locked out on T3/T4 because you messed with them. Exiling the grave in response to Loam is fine; because it takes them a long time to get going after a reset unless you've allowed them to stock their hand with Thickets and stuff.

Usually that's not excatly how it plays out. For Lands to be able to deal with both your pretty expansive board and your manabase they need to have a combination of Loam, PF, Exporation and Moxen and usually they don't have access to those perfect draws, and when they do, Nihil Spellbomb is pretty dead anyways as it doesn't deal with all loams, nor PF. I have had a lot of games where I've hardcasted Leyline against lands, and 11% of the time it's in my starting hand. And this is just Lands, what is important to keep in mind is that both Jund and Aggro Loam are decks that employ PF, but don't assault your manabase in quite the same fashion as lands. But I would be very unexcited about bringing in spellbombs against those decks (as it doesn't interact well with PF), but leyline just stops everything (and is outside of decay range, which is very relevant).


Now.. I'll admit that Void is better if you can get it down; hard to remove, permanent, etc.. but.. I mean.. you're stretching it here. If you're splashing white; just swap in Meddling Mages and RIP. Fuck the Void. RiP is castable and good and if you board into Mages to screw with their Pfire/Loams, it seems fine.
RiP is pretty bad in a deck with Goyfs and DRS, remember: not only lands run the Loam/PF engine.


Even at that; if you're expecting to cast it and don't need the exiling thing; you could run Planar Void (which can be worked around) but at least you can make it to 1 mana reliably. It's ok, but it really falls on being a decayable answer. And it's unplayable through chalice, which is another bad thing it shares with Spellbomb actually.

[order]

Went 6-3 in GP seatle. Lost to lands, burn and rug delver.

g1 Burn 2-0
g2 Lands 2-0
g3 rug delver 0-2
g4 miracles 2-0
g5 grixis delver 2-0
g6 lands 0-2
g7 burn 2-1
g8 burn 1-2
g9 rug delver 2-0

I was unlucky to be paired against 2xlands 3xburn. They are bad matchups and I have only managed to win 3x because of oponents mistakes. If would play another big tournament, I would use 3x leyline on side. We need extra help against lands, matchup is really poor.

[screallix]

I'd like to share this article about Shardless BUG (http://bordifies.com/articles/an-eye-on-legacy-1-shardless-bug/) in the current meta which one of my teammates wrote.
http://bordifies.com/articles/an-eye-on-legacy-1-shardless-bug/

regarding the latest GP it seems like Shardless BUG is here to stay for a while.

[LarsLeif]

I'd like to share this article about Shardless BUG (http://bordifies.com/articles/an-eye-on-legacy-1-shardless-bug/) in the current meta which one of my teammates wrote.
http://bordifies.com/articles/an-eye-on-legacy-1-shardless-bug/

regarding the latest GP it seems like Shardless BUG is here to stay for a while.

I approve of this message :)

[Whitefaces]

Fantastic (beginning?) to hopefully more articles on the deck.

My current list is a bit different as it has three Strix in the MD with YP leaving the format (to an extent) and so Scrubland in the SB and Strand over the flats, but similar in principal. No Hymns, discard and MM package etc in the SB. Looping forward to hearing more from you.

[infiniteJ]

Planning on playing shardless this weekend. I expect miracles and shardless to be everywhere. Anyone have any good tech for the grindy mirrors? I prefer the maindeck popularized by Lejay without discard and without baleful strix and the sideboard with meddling mages.

Mini GP Report:

Night before, I started to get the fear of combo and sleeved up grixis delver (2 sideboard cards off list that got second in GP). But I managed to talk myself into staying faithful to Shardless. Played the Lejay version -1 null rod, +1 v clique. You know, the forest fetching no discard deck w savannah and quad meddling mages. Null rod is good to have vs storm but does nothing in the mirror. I also find that while it shuts down top, having too many cards that don't pressure miracles can be troublesome. Walking them into a v clique on their entreat or taking out a jace can be game winning.

No byes.

R1. 2-0 miracles. First time legacy player. Picking up miracles. For the GP. What a brave soul. Thankfully he played at a reasonable pace. I coached him through several practice games after.
R2. UR hivemind. G1 he got to 7 mana, cast 3 brainstorms with shuffles, and scooped. I wasn't even sure what he was playing but it was definitely combo. G2 he kept a perfect 6 with no land. I duressed him, saw ponder, hive mind, pact of the titan, show and tell, ponder, and monolith. I took his ponder and went on to win.
R3. Death and Taxes. I think this was 2-0 but I'm not sure. It was definitely grindy. G2 he had a large board with all the lock pieces and a crusader. I was using deathrite to keep my lifetotal high and forcing chumps with a goyf since he refused to activate mother. Eventually I whittled him down to mom and crusader, drew lilliana, -2, then swords to plowshared the crusader. Next turn, swung for lethal in turns. This was not the only time STP over disfigure was relevant.
R4. Reanimator. 0-2. G1 I mull to a 6 card hand that would crush delver and died on turn 2. G2 I have a fast deathrite. I thoughtseize and see Jace show and tell entomb reanimate. I take the jace and meddling mage show and tell. He then brainstorms into another entomb and exhume to beat my deathrite.
R5. Miracles 2-1. He kept in CB vs me and that crushed me g2 since I couldn't find an abrupt decay.
R6. Maverick 2-0. I drew relevant cards in order like a quick liliana and a toxic deluge.
R7. 2-1 Chalice merfolk- He crushes me g1. In G2 I stick a NOSB then pulse 2 for one his lords and wipe the rest of the board. In G3 he draws all artifacts like cursed totem and chalices and vials and not enough dudes to beat a plainswalker.
R8. 1-2 vs Shardless. I know I mulled to 5 g1 on the play and was hymned off from almost winning. In a close G3 I have a lethal goyf facing his strix and both of us empty handed. I draw blanks. He suspends visions. I draw and play deathrite and pass. He backs me up and wants to clique my draw. Judge rules in his favor and I don't appeal (I guess I thought that if I just draw removal I win?) Anyways, I go on to draw more lands. There was also a sequence in G2 or 3 where I have a visions at 1 and he draws and plays a meddling mage on my visions. That was a kick in the teeth and wholly unexpected.
R9. Wasteland Merfolk 2-1. G1 I mull to 4 or 5 and get double wastelanded. G2 and 3 lilly and deluge do their thing.

D2.
R10 0-2 vs Tenjum playing Shardless. Again mull a bunch G1. G2 He telegraphs thief for a while so I play jace and fateseal. Eventually he taps out to play a bunch of stuff. I dig 13 cards in one turn (sylvan for full, ponder, double brainstorm with fetches) looking for a deluge that would wipe his board and allow my goyf to kill his jace and whiff. Then notion thief comes down and ends my jace/library fun.
R11 2-0 Maverick. Close G1 with his ooze, scryb ranger, and noble fighting off 3 goyfs and a deathrite. Eventually, he can't develop his mana enough and loses. G2 I have a big deluge to wipe a giant knight and his board, then waste him off the rest of his mana and leave him with a plains. Kinda felt bad.
R12 2-1 Rug Delver. My opponent was flooded in G1. G2 he had all the stifles and dazes at the right time to allow his mongeese to win while I have decays in hand as Rug can do. G3 He opened on Ponder and I had all the cards/mana I needed to develop goyfs to brick his goyfs and a mini deluge to take out his TNN. I win without any pressure from him.
R13 1-2 Loose Mirror...AGAIN. I get a little unlucky in one game (not sure which) where I have a visions going down early. He plays his second land untapped and passes with no play so I fire a wasteland off at him. He then draws and plays a tarpit for the turn (which I reasoned he didn't have on t2). I end up losing two plainswalkers and my life to that tarpit without finding a second wasteland. Maybe that was aggressive of me but I think keeping him off shardless agent is best. Mull to 5 again. Made a mistake in G3 (and this might not be exactly the right sequence but it's close)- Had lilly at 1, 3 mana, decay/goyf/night of souls betrayal in hand. He has a goyf and 4 cards, non of which are lands. I tick up lilly pitching night of souls betrayal and then decay his goyf. He decays my lilly. Turns out two of the last cards in his hand are notion thiefs and v clique and I never find a deluge or pulse to come back.
R14 2-0 Stifle BUG delver. No notes.
R15 Opponent no shows...I take my top 100 250$

Summary:
0-3 in mirror
1-1 vs combo
2-0 miracles
x-0 vs all the delver, vial, mom, tribal types.

Decklist was great, would play again. Other than 2 rounds, I felt like I was essentially preboard for every matchup, which is an awesome edge. 4 wasteland was sweet. Didn't miss Tarpit as I needed to curve out aggressively and rarely felt I could activate it. Not sure about that ponder but it's fine I guess. Not sure I really want a notion thief for the mirror since it's literally never worked for me but it sure was a thorn all tournament. I think 0-3 the mirror is mostly variance as I mulled a lot of no landers and was on the receiving end of some blowouts and never could land one of my own.
1-1 vs combo. I didn't miss discard main. I think reanimator is a fine matchup even with the MD config.
All my opponents were pretty cool and just excited to play legacy.
Seattle was beautiful. Tacoma was whatever.

[rei-vax]

I'd like to share this article about Shardless BUG (http://bordifies.com/articles/an-eye-on-legacy-1-shardless-bug/) in the current meta which one of my teammates wrote.
http://bordifies.com/articles/an-eye-on-legacy-1-shardless-bug/

regarding the latest GP it seems like Shardless BUG is here to stay for a while.

Nice job! We heve the same point of view. (just not sure about the duress against RUG, i don't like discard in this MU)
I'm waiting for sideboarding plans and match-ups in your next article:laugh:

[LarsLeif]

Nice report infiniteJ! Did you confirm if your shardless opponent that sided in MM was aware that the card is symmetrical? Feels like a very tilting way to lose a game regardless :P

[infiniteJ]

Nice report infiniteJ! Did you confirm if your shardless opponent that sided in MM was aware that the card is symmetrical? Feels like a very tilting way to lose a game regardless :P

He was well aware that he sided in a grizzly bears. He just kind of shrugged. It must have been G2 because now I remember almost siding in a meddling mage G3 since I don't have baleful strix, hymn, or notion thief. Thankfully, I left him in the board.

Here's roughly how I was boarding:

For the mirror, I was boarding -4 force +1 stp, +1 Savannah, +1 v clique, +1 nosb (if they had thief/strix) or +1 nihil spellbomb if they don't. On the draw I boarded out a forest for the spellbomb either way. Spellbomb allows you to potentially counter a deathrite activation, shrink a goyf, and more crucially to start a turn up a card after a hymn or lilliana makes you empty handed. It's not great but it's better than force of will imo.

For Miracles I was boarding -1 deluge, -1 marsh flats, -1 force, +1 needle, +1 v clique +1 thoughtsieze. If they have 3 v clique, scm, and mentor, I would consider leaving in the second deluge or boarding in NOSB but never boarded it in. Not sure if the 1 thoughtseize is better than force, probably not.

For the thalia/merfolk type matchups, +1 savannah, +1 swords, +1 needle (often) +1 nosb. -4 force. For DNT, I board in 2 thoughtsieze on the draw to deal with SFM.

For the delver matchups, it depends if they have stifle or young pyro or what. it's also play/draw dependant. In general:
RUG -2 jace, -2 force +1 swords + 1 spellbomb +1 duress +1 savannah
Grixis replace the spellbomb with a nosb.
BUG leave in jaces and board out more forces. No need for duress/spellbomb.

Combo: -decays and goyfs and land + savannah mages and duresses. Occasionally leaving in some decay if they have new jace or are elves and instead boarding out some number of visions or a jace. I actually like sylvan in the combo matchups.

[btm10]

I've found the mirror to be incredibility high-variace unless one or both of you has serious mirror-breakers like additional Tar Pits, unusual Planeswalkers like Garruk Relentless, Loam, Tombstalker, or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and lots of interactive cards to rebuy. Beyond that it's mostly about who can hit the right cards off of Agents or who can hold on to Sylvan Library longer in my experience. I don't think Notion Theif is worth the slot since he's worse than Clique or Meddling Mage against everything but the mirror.

[Sigi85]

Good morning Guys

Finally we are back on the deck to beat!
I have some general question:
1) What do you think about list that run only 3 Ancestral Vision?
In my opinion is not a bad idea; yes is the core of the deck, but you don't want to see it, in multiple copies in your start hand,not to mention that in late game is a really bad top deck.
2) I went back to play a standard list (4 discard ,4 planswalker ,2 strix, maindeck) without White splash in sideboard; i feel a bit safe playing this list(probably i'm not so good to play Meddling Mage), that is a bit worse against combo, but in my opinion is more solid in other MU like tempo deck or BG based.
3) For the most experts:
Sylvan Librabry, is a Must in this deck? with my conformation i haven't space for it,maybe i can replace the 4th Vsion with It!
What do you think about Tasigur,the Golden fang? i try it and i think that need space in our 75s , is not only strong against BG or Tempo, but i found it strong also vs Combo, where you need to put pression, at low mana cost
(Always play it at least on the 4th turn).
4) I see that the meta is shifting to Punishing Fire (see also miracle list with it), i will not explain how bad this card is for us...i don't find in Nihil spellbomb and Leyline valid answers (1 is not defenitive and one is too slow)... i read about RIP, but in my opinion is the worse choose...I'd like to test Reliq of Progenitus, yes could damage our tarmo and shaman, but you are not obbligated to target our grave!

Bye!!

[H]

I am by no means an expert of Shardless BUG, I usually play Delver or Control, but last Friday I decided I wanted to try something different, so I made Shardless. I figured my Visions and Agents should probably get played at least once, I've owned them since they came out.

I played a pretty stock list, slightly tuned for my local meta (I knew combo was going to be low, mid-range high) with no discard main, a couple extra bodies to swing the mid-range removal wars. I ended up 4-0 with a little luck, beating a White-Stax with no Stax hot mess (basically Sol lands and lots of Batterskulls), Burn, Dredge, UG Turbo Eldrazi.

In the White Stax matchup I win game one on an odd draw where I have just enough Watelands to keep him from bring about to cast everything he needs to stave off the flood of Goyf's. Second game I am super flooded on lands, but it works out, because he plays Thalia, into Lodestone, into Lodestone, but I have just enough removal (and a timely Vendilion Clique to take his Cataclysm and block down a Golem) in order to stabilize. Jace fatesteal finished the job.

I was very lucky versus Burn, in each game I draw enough Bolts to Deathrites that I win at 1 life in games one and three. In the last one, I finally find a Goyf and he fires off a bevy of burn at me, to which I have to force a lethal Price of Progress putting me to 1. I fire up my Tarpit and attack with a big Goyf putting him on one turn. He top decks a fetch and I win. Very lucky.

I beat Dredge, game one he has to mull and the top decks three LEDs in a row with no Dredgers. By the time he finds them, I have 2 Deathrites. Game 2 he starts well, Looting Trolls into the yard. I play a Deathrite. He dredges into Narco and two Therapies with two Bridges, which is unfortunate because it allows him to hit the Spellbomb in my hand. I end up Brainstorming into my Cage though and get one of my creatures to die ripping his Bridges and he scoops.

I could have just given him the win here, but I don't get to play versus Turbo Eldrazi often. Game one I am fuzzy on, I know he had a ton of mana, I Force of Will something and he wiffs on more action. Game two I side in some discard and two Hymns later he has no lands left in hand and is facing 13 points of damage on the next swing. I give him the win after though, since I was the only 3-0 and I'm in top 4 anyway.


Good morning Guys

Finally we are back on the deck to beat!
I have some general question:
1) What do you think about list that run only 3 Ancestral Vision?
In my opinion is not a bad idea; yes is the core of the deck, but you don't want to see it, in multiple copies in your start hand,not to mention that in late game is a really bad top deck.

I played 3 Visions and one Library and I think it ended up pretty well. Library did a lot of worth, since it usually sat on the table for 4-5+ turns. I never cascaded into Visions and only suspended one once, the game was over by then. I pitched it for Force three times though.


2) I went back to play a standard list (4 discard ,4 planswalker ,2 strix, maindeck) without White splash in sideboard; i feel a bit safe playing this list(probably i'm not so good to play Meddling Mage), that is a bit worse against combo, but in my opinion is more solid in other MU like tempo deck or BG based.

Meddling Mage was good to me, but often it is hard to use effectively if you re unsure of certain match-ups and decks. It is definitely a card that scales to you skill level. You've got to tailor the list to you meta, sometimes discard main will be good, sometimes not.


3) For the most experts:
Sylvan Librabry, is a Must in this deck? with my conformation i haven't space for it,maybe i can replace the 4th Vsion with It!
What do you think about Tasigur,the Golden fang? i try it and i think that need space in our 75s , is not only strong against BG or Tempo, but i found it strong also vs Combo, where you need to put pression, at low mana cost
(Always play it at least on the 4th turn).

I think Library should absolutely be in the 75. Any grindy matchup is absolutely in your favor if you have and resolve Library.

I tried a Tasigur, but never drew him, so I can't really say.


4) I see that the meta is shifting to Punishing Fire (see also miracle list with it), i will not explain how bad this card is for us...i don't find in Nihil spellbomb and Leyline valid answers (1 is not defenitive and one is too slow)... i read about RIP, but in my opinion is the worse choose...I'd like to test Reliq of Progenitus, yes could damage our tarmo and shaman, but you are not obbligated to target our grave!

I think Relic is too easy for them to play around if you aren't going to pop it and too much harm to our own yard if you do. I agree the Spellbomb isn't a great tool to defeat Fire, but I fail to see how Leyline is too slow. Of the decks the run it, only Jund is really going to pressure you, Lands and Miracles really isn't. If I run this again, I'll try 3 Leyline in the board.

[Sigi85]

Really thanks for the replay man.

Yes probably i haven't much experience on the called, of meddling mage; sure in some MU there are 1 or 2 call (ANT) where meddling shine, but in an unknow meta i prefere discard effects combined with Flusterstorm.
About Leyline i speak about the list that run only 1 of it, in my opinion 1 isn't enough to beat a deck with punishing...in the Dig era, i try the configuration with 3 of them in SB, this is the only way(as you write) to see it quickly, but now i really don't know if i want to use 3 slot of my side for it...
About library i will try the configuration with 3 Vision and one of it.

Bye! :)

[H]

Yes probably i haven't much experience on the called, of meddling mage; sure in some MU there are 1 or 2 call (ANT) where meddling shine, but in an unknow meta i prefere discard effects combined with Flusterstorm.

I don't know how great Flusterstorm would be, considering Cascade.


About Leyline i speak about the list that run only 1 of it, in my opinion 1 isn't enough to beat a deck with punishing...in the Dig era, i try the configuration with 3 of them in SB, this is the only way(as you write) to see it quickly, but now i really don't know if i want to use 3 slot of my side for it...

Well, my small local meta often has a bunch of Lands decks, along with Dredge. I was playing three Graveyard hate pieces before (2 Spellbomb, 1 Cage), so I don't feel like 3 Leylines would be too outlandish.

[Sigi85]

I usually side out shardless when i side in flusterstorm.

[btm10]

I don't know how great Flusterstorm would be, considering Cascade.


I agree with this assessment. If you want countermagic, Dimir Charm is the best choice because it's not dead when you cascade into it and has a bunch of utility against BUG and Grixis Delver, the mirror, Miracles, and Infect.



Well, my small local meta often has a bunch of Lands decks, along with Dredge. I was playing three Graveyard hate pieces before (2 Spellbomb, 1 Cage), so I don't feel like 3 Leylines would be too outlandish.

I think 3 Leylines are fine, too. That being said, if you're seeing a lot of Dredge and Lands and not much in the way of Reanimator, there's an argument for Yixlid Jailer since it shuts down all the P. Fire recursion and Dredging forever. Those decks don't usually have extra creature removal postboard, so at worst Jailer eats a Punishing Fire for a Deathrite, and Forcing Fire isn't nearly as bad as it is when they can rebuy it easily.

[cheerios]

Would you guys MD a Jitte in place of a walker if you were expecting elves? I'm currently testing the lejay build.

Cheers

[infiniteJ]

Would you guys MD a Jitte in place of a walker if you were expecting elves? I'm currently testing the lejay build.

Cheers

I don't love jitte. It's slow and Elves can work around Jitte pretty easily these days through ranger and symbiote. NOSB, Deluge, and FOW are your path. Maybe try a containment priest?

[ironclad8690]

Went 3-1 in my local last night using a list similar to Andres Prost's from the GP.

GB Midrange: 2-0 Not really sure if I can count this as a real deck, it didn't seem to do anything. A competitive standard deck would have fared better.

Infect: 2-1 This was a lucky match, game 1 I lost quickly to all the pump. Game 2 I kept him off of creatures for the entire game meanwhile I am shardlessing into stuff. Game 3 He gets a quick 2 invigorate start on an inkmoth nexus, but the following turn he has no pump and my Golgari Charm takes out his lone threat. He tries to stick creatures, but my card advantage does its thing and I win eventually.

Burn: 2-1 I happened to be able to play around PoP and get my Goyfs + Hymns + FoW in the games I won. Got the other half of the deck in the game I lost.

Sneak and Show: 0-2 Game 1 went poorly when my only disruption was FoW which was met with a FoW of his own. Game 2 I brought in 11 cards from my sideboard, but my opening 7 was a 1 lander with 2 thoughtseize. I tanked for a little while then shipped it because I felt as though it would be safer to go to a good 6 with a mix of lands and spells. My 6 was 5 lands + Ancestral Vision, so I sent that back, 5 had no lands, 4 was DRS, Fetch, Brainstorm, Maelstrom Pulse (I know my opponent plays Jace& Blood Moon), so I keep it. I draw some good cards, but he has countermagic for my Hymn and I get to a point where I only have FoW in hand but no blue card to go with it. He resolves Sneak Attack after I had Maelstromed away a Jace, and it all goes downhill from there.

Aside from the crappy draws in match 4, I felt great with the deck and my choices. Only difference between what I played and what Prost played was he had 23rd land and I cut that for Sylvan Library. Also my split was 3 Wasteland/1 Creeping, his was 2/3 I think.

Thanks for reading!

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

It seems like a lot of people here are moving to the Lejay version (0 Strix, 0 Vryn's Prodigy, 0 maindeck discard) of the deck. I'm curious to hear from someone who's been happy with their Strix'd version and what they like about it and what advantages/disadvantages they feel the different build gives.

[fluuu]

It seems like a lot of people here are moving to the Lejay version (0 Strix, 0 Vryn's Prodigy, 0 maindeck discard) of the deck. I'm curious to hear from someone who's been happy with their Strix'd version and what they like about it and what advantages/disadvantages they feel the different build gives.

Can u post lejay version? Thanks

[Spaker71]

It seems like a lot of people here are moving to the Lejay version (0 Strix, 0 Vryn's Prodigy, 0 maindeck discard) of the deck. I'm curious to hear from someone who's been happy with their Strix'd version and what they like about it and what advantages/disadvantages they feel the different build gives.

Hi,

For what it is worth, here is some feelings I had with the deck at the GP Lyon last month. I picked up the deck 3 months ago, so I'm also discovering the archetype. I made a good run with it, felt great, very powerfull against fair-decks but pretty close when it comes to the combo decks.

Deck-list :

- 2 Baleful Strix
- 4 DRS
- 4 Tarmo
- 4 Shardless

- 2 Jace the mind sculptor
- 2 Liliana

- 4 Ancestral vision
- 4 Abrupt Decay
- 4 Brainstorm
- 4 Force of will
- 1 Toxic deluge
- 1 Maelstro pulse
- 2 Hymn to Tourach

- 4 Underground sea
- 2 Bayou
- 1 Tropical island
- 3 Wasteland
- 1 Creeping Tar Pit
- 4 Verdant Catacomb
- 4 Polluted delta
- 1 Misty Rainforest
- 1 Swamp
- 1 Forest

SIDEBOARD

- 1 Scrubland
- 2 Disfigure
- 2 Hymn to tourach
- 3 Thought seize
- 2 Meddling mage
- 1 Notion Thief
- 1 Golgari charm
- 1 Toxic deluge
- 1 Pithing needle
- 1 Grafdigger's cage

Straight list, no surprise. The strix never really had the opportunity to shine since I faced match-up like Sneak and Show, Dredge, Miracles, Jund, TES. It's "ok" against Reanimator and good versus Delver decks but that was pretty much it for me during this particular tournament. I know it's a great card in this deck since it pumps tarmo, can be pitched with fow and defends Jace or Liliana perfectly, I guess it depends on your metagame. When it's more filled with tempo and grindy match-up, it is a his best I think.

Hymn to tourach was great 4 times out of 5. With Fow, it's the best (and pretty much only thing) you have against combo in G1. And against fair-decks, it plays it's purpose of CA perfectly. Against Miracles, it's a huge weapon in early game, and delver variant are not happy to see their own hand shrinking that fast. (BONUS : it's always nice to see the face of your opponent when he knows he can't hide his spells with brainstorm or counter the Hymn. Fear of the Dice).
On the other hand, Hymn was very bad against Reanimator for some obvious reasons.

I think that the Lejay version can be a interesting other path. I witnessed the power of Sylvan Library in so many decks (Elves, Bug delver, Jund, 4 Colors Delver etc) that I'm very eager to test it in Shardless BUG. I also like the control-orientation of the Lejay version with the 2 toxic deluge and the 3rd liliana. Not having Hymn makes the G1 against combo even more difficult, but I don't think it was enough in the first place so... I think the 4th card included was a Ponder ? I don't know about that.

I guess this classic version is great in an unknown metagame since you can deal with most threats, but it's not fantastic either. It depends if your want to cover most MU in G1 but not being great against neither of them (ok, POX might be the exception), or if you want to prey on some grindy MU and leave the Combo-fight later with G2 and hopefully G3.

Greetings,

Spaker

[guybrush3]

What do u suggest to play instead of 4 force of wills? Wanted to swap them for something else. Extirpate? Ensnaring bridge? dunno just thinking.
PS: I'LL test the classic list tonight but with 1 jace and 3 liliana and 2 dark confidant instead of strix

[Whitefaces]

What do u suggest to play instead of 4 force of wills? Wanted to swap them for something else. Extirpate? Ensnaring bridge? dunno just thinking

I would suggest Hidden Gibbons.

[guybrush3]

i would suggest hidden gibbons.

haha u serious? If yes i love u.

[Whitefaces]

haha u serious? If yes i love u.

Totally. Force of Will counters a spell. If you play Hidden Gibbons your opponent won't want to cast that spell you would counter anyway.

[Sibelius]

Totally. Force of Will counters a spell. If you play Hidden Gibbons your opponent won't want to cast that spell you would counter anyway.

Standstill. Think of the card advantage ..........

[Whitefaces]

Standstill. Think of the card advantage ..........

Sickening. Truly sickening.

[guybrush3]

Totally. Force of Will counters a spell. If you play Hidden Gibbons your opponent won't want to cast that spell you would counter anyway.
used to play gibbons in a zoo like 10 years ago. they were so fun to play. However it limits the opponent from casting instants a not sorceries... however i will try 4 of them tonight, they are a sort of x8 tarmos in the deck. However to stop the opponent from playing crucial cards(what FoW does) i would add x4 duress or x4 editcs ,stuff like that.

[ironclad8690]

I had a good run last night:

UWr Blade 2-0

Mirror 2-0

Gw Cloudpost: 2-1

Dredge 2-0

I felt bad because my opponents missed some crucial triggers, but you gotta play tight if you want that skrilla.

[kingtk3]

I'm currently playing this list:

Creatures [14]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix

Instants [12]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [7]
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [5]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [22]
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
1 Savannah
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Notion Thief (but I'm contemplating playing a Golgari Charm instead)
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction

How would you side against D&T and Lands (both the RG combo and the one with Reliquary)? I'm interested in the reasons behind the choices too.

Thanks in andvance.

[hobart]

I'm currently playing this list:

Creatures [14]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix

Instants [12]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [7]
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [5]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [22]
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
1 Savannah
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Notion Thief (but I'm contemplating playing a Golgari Charm instead)
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction

How would you side against D&T and Lands (both the RG combo and the one with Reliquary)? I'm interested in the reasons behind the choices too.

Thanks in andvance.


I have a lot of experience with shardless, and your maindeck is almost identical to mine. The only difference is I move one of the deluges to the sideboard and I have a 3rd Lili, and for the record I think either configuration is fantastic in a creature meta.

First off, I would take out the Notion Thief for a Golgari charm, so let's assume that you have.
against DnT: Turn your 2 for 1's into 1 for 2's.
-4 FoW
+1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
+1 Golgari Charm
+2 Pithing Needle
The only spell in their deck FoW will most likely do anything against is Aether Vial, and I'd rather just let them use the card, then kill everything they put in play with it. If you live long enough to resolve NOSB you will win the game. Toxic Deluge will win the game. Golgari charm will almost win the game by itself. Take over the game with Goyfs and Planeswalkers.

Lands is much harder, and unlike DnT you will still be unfavored even after sideboard, but you could improve the matchup. I have less experience with this matchup but I still have some theories, and I still don't like Fow here:
-2 Toxic Deluge
-4 Fow
-2 Baleful Strix
-1 Sylvan Library (this card is fine but we need more room)
+2 Surgical Extractions
+4 Meddling Mage (should probably name Punishing fire then Loam)
+1 Savannah
+2 Pithing needle (almost always naming Thespian's Stage or whatever it's copying)

[Ephemeron]

Against RG combo lands with your board I'd probably go:

+1 Savannah
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pithing Needle

-1 Forest
-4 FoW
-2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Baleful Strix
-1 Maelstrom Pulse

Surgical is obviously awesome, Pikula is sweet if you can get two since the first can name Punishing Fire and the Second can get Loam. Needle can name Thespian Stage. FoW seems pointless against them unless you can snipe a turn 1 Gamble/Exploration, Pulse seems bad because they don't have a ton of non-land permanents and Decay can hit everything they do have, Strix is too slow to be a clock and only buys you a turn against Marit Lage, Deluge is just not a card since you're not gonna pay 20 life to kill a Marit Lage. I could see Duress on the play also being ok.

Against D&T, I'd go:

+1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Golgari Charm (if you have it)

-4 FoW

Force isn't good against D&T and those are basically the only 4 cards in your sideboard that I can see making a real impact. I suppose Thoughtseize is fine as well as a way to get equipment or Mirran Crusader out of their hand if you want it

Not sure about the 4c Loam matchup, I haven't played against it a ton. Seems tough though since that deck kinda plays like a hybrid of jund/maverick/lands. I'd probably want all the same cards that I have against lands but use Pithing Needle for Knight of the Reliquary or Wasteland if they're on the recurring Wasteland plan against you. Also, if you can kill a Knight early on it might be worth it to Surgical it out of the deck. I normally hate that play against "fair" decks but in this case, that deck is usually pretty low on actual win conditions and if you get rid of all their Knights they lose a lot of tricks against you and might not have a card that can actually kill you quickly.

[mrschro]

As a former Esper Deathblade player, I found the transition into Shardless BUG to be a comfortable shift after the cleansing of legacy (aka purging the format of Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time). The first four round event at a LGS was a bit rough, but I got over it. At GP Atlanta, I played it in most of the legacy challenge events to a weekend record of 10-3-3. My losses were twice to the same Miracles player though they were very tight and I beat other Miracles pilots as well as a round to Infect. All draws were intentional so I could go eat food. I felt like the deck was well positioned against everything and always had lines open up.

Based on some previous comments, I wanted to highlight a line to beat Lands. I played a very skilled player twice in the weekend. I cannot understate how good Deathrite Shaman is in this match up, he is the route to victory. I stick it on turn one and counter a Punishing Fire with Force of Will in order to eat the Punishing Fire. Twice I regenerated my Deathrite Shaman in response to a Punishing Fires via Golgari Charm (this card was an all-star!). In two of our six games, I won because I would Force of Will a turn one Exploration or Crop Rotation cast off his Mox Diamond and follow up with destroying his land with Wasteland and/or Abrupt Decay his Mox Diamond or drop the Null Rod to turn it off. I really did mana deny the lands player long enough to stick Shardless Agent and Tarmogoyf for additional card advantage. Pithing Needing would name Thespian Stage, and if I got two I put them both out with the same name to hedge against Krosan Grip if available.

Creatures [15]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

Instants [11]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will

Sorceries [9]
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Planeswalkers [3]
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [22]
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
2 Duress
1 Engineered Plaque
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Notion Thief
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize

My questions are aside from Liliana of the Veil, how have people beat Miracles consistently? Is there a modification that would help for that match up?

I have not found Jace, Vryn's Prodigy too good in the main and was considering dropping it. I would shift Jace, the Mind Sculptor in from the board and have a free sideboard slot.

Any suggestions on the sideboard? I may have an open slot or two if I drop the Notion Thief (it is fun to catch a JMS activation, but people do catch on). I like the idea of Sylvan Library but am open to hearing recommendations.

[cheerios]

Is null rod really helpful in shutting down RG lands? I don't think we hit a lot of cards in that deck. I'm pretty inexperienced in this match up as well. Would appreciate your inputs.

Cheers

[kingtk3]

Against RG combo lands with your board I'd probably go:

+1 Savannah
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pithing Needle

-1 Forest
-4 FoW
-2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Baleful Strix
-1 Maelstrom Pulse

Surgical is obviously awesome, Pikula is sweet if you can get two since the first can name Punishing Fire and the Second can get Loam. Needle can name Thespian Stage. FoW seems pointless against them unless you can snipe a turn 1 Gamble/Exploration, Pulse seems bad because they don't have a ton of non-land permanents and Decay can hit everything they do have, Strix is too slow to be a clock and only buys you a turn against Marit Lage, Deluge is just not a card since you're not gonna pay 20 life to kill a Marit Lage. I could see Duress on the play also being ok.

Against D&T, I'd go:

+1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Golgari Charm (if you have it)

-4 FoW

Force isn't good against D&T and those are basically the only 4 cards in your sideboard that I can see making a real impact. I suppose Thoughtseize is fine as well as a way to get equipment or Mirran Crusader out of their hand if you want it

Not sure about the 4c Loam matchup, I haven't played against it a ton. Seems tough though since that deck kinda plays like a hybrid of jund/maverick/lands. I'd probably want all the same cards that I have against lands but use Pithing Needle for Knight of the Reliquary or Wasteland if they're on the recurring Wasteland plan against you. Also, if you can kill a Knight early on it might be worth it to Surgical it out of the deck. I normally hate that play against "fair" decks but in this case, that deck is usually pretty low on actual win conditions and if you get rid of all their Knights they lose a lot of tricks against you and might not have a card that can actually kill you quickly.

Thank you.

For the RG Lands MU I think that meddling mages for punishing and loam are right, but one of my friends told me that it's risky to side in another color against a deck with waste recursion. In a sense he is right because many things can go wrong (punishing killing DRS, waste on savannah), but the mages can effectively shut down the Lands' engines.
However I don't understand why we should keep the decays in: they basically hit only sideboard cards like spheres and choke (maindeck targets are only exploration and mox), and I don't even know if they will side them all (choke obviously yes). Wouldn't FoW be better because it can hit crop rotations and gamble too?

What about this?
+4 Meddling mage
+1 Savannah
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pithing needle

-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-2 Toxic Deluge
-2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Bayou
-1 Force of Will
-2 Tarmogoyf

I like that Strix can block Marit lage for an attack, giving time to Lili or Jace to take care of him.


Against D&T I would like to side in all the cards that you mentioned plus 2 Thoughtseize because, as you said, they are good against stoneforge and crusader; what other 2 cards could I side out alongside the Fows? I'm thinking at a combination of Jace, Ancestral and Sylvan, but since I haven't played against D&T very much I don't know what are the best cards against them.

[Whitefaces]

Thank you.

For the RG Lands MU I think that meddling mages for punishing and loam are right, but one of my friends told me that it's risky to side in another color against a deck with waste recursion. In a sense he is right because many things can go wrong (punishing killing DRS, waste on savannah), but the mages can effectively shut down the Lands' engines.
However I don't understand why we should keep the decays in: they basically hit only sideboard cards like spheres and choke (maindeck targets are only exploration and mox), and I don't even know if they will side them all (choke obviously yes). Wouldn't FoW be better because it can hit crop rotations and gamble too?

What about this?
+4 Meddling mage
+1 Savannah
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pithing needle

-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-2 Toxic Deluge
-2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Bayou
-1 Force of Will
-2 Tarmogoyf

I like that Strix can block Marit lage for an attack, giving time to Lili or Jace to take care of him.


Against D&T I would like to side in all the cards that you mentioned plus 2 Thoughtseize because, as you said, they are good against stoneforge and crusader; what other 2 cards could I side out alongside the Fows? I'm thinking at a combination of Jace, Ancestral and Sylvan, but since I haven't played against D&T very much I don't know what are the best cards against them.

Your friend is very, very wrong. You sideboard in Meddling Mages. First one names Punishing Fire 99% of the time, then the second should be Loam, Gamble or potentially Crop Rotation. Kind of dependent on what's going on in the game. If you've got it under control with a DRS and access to Waste for a naturally drawn combo Gamble is probably correct.

You sideboard out goyf as you want to maximize your cascades from shardless into disruption pieces, you need to treat this like a combo matchup.

Don't side out Force of Will, you need it for T1 Exploration/Manabond, a tempo counter on p fire/loam to eat it with shaman or a late game gamble/crop rotation for combo.

Don't side out a Bayou either, they're trying to manascrew you.

Side out all Visions, this matchup isn't about card advantage. Thoughtseize/Duress, while not ideal on the draw, are much better. Especially as post board you can expect them to cut Manabonds and bring in hateful permanents like Spheres, Choke, Trini etc. Whether that's correct from their side or not, people generally do it against me. This is another reason to keep decays in, but you need them for Exploration too.

[kingtk3]

Your friend is very, very wrong. You sideboard in Meddling Mages. First one names Punishing Fire 99% of the time, then the second should be Loam, Gamble or potentially Crop Rotation. Kind of dependent on what's going on in the game. If you've got it under control with a DRS and access to Waste for a naturally drawn combo Gamble is probably correct.

You sideboard out goyf as you want to maximize your cascades from shardless into disruption pieces, you need to treat this like a combo matchup.

Don't side out Force of Will, you need it for T1 Exploration/Manabond, a tempo counter on p fire/loam to eat it with shaman or a late game gamble/crop rotation for combo.

Don't side out a Bayou either, they're trying to manascrew you.

Side out all Visions, this matchup isn't about card advantage. Thoughtseize/Duress, while not ideal on the draw, are much better. Especially as post board you can expect them to cut Manabonds and bring in hateful permanents like Spheres, Choke, Trini etc. Whether that's correct from their side or not, people generally do it against me. This is another reason to keep decays in, but you need them for Exploration too.

So, if I understand correctly, the sideboard plan should be:

+4 meddling mage
+1 savannah
+2 surgical extraction
+2 pithing needle
+1 duress

-4 tarmogoyf
-4 ancestral vision
-2 toxic deluge

right?

[Whitefaces]

So, if I understand correctly, the sideboard plan should be:

+4 meddling mage
+1 savannah
+2 surgical extraction
+2 pithing needle
+1 duress

-4 tarmogoyf
-4 ancestral vision
-2 toxic deluge

right?

In my opinion, yes. I would cut the Pulse for the second Duress too.

Discard isn't ideal in the matchup, but it's better than the alternatives.

[kingtk3]

In my opinion, yes. I would cut the Pulse for the second Duress too.

Discard isn't ideal in the matchup, but it's better than the alternatives.

I would rather drop a decay than the pulse, since I saw some lists that play one or two planeswalker in the side. And anyway pulse can deal with multiple spheres/explorations...


Anyway I don't play the MU often so it's only speculation from the part of mine.

[Whitefaces]

I would rather drop a decay than the pulse, since I saw some lists that play one or two planeswalker in the side. And anyway pulse can deal with multiple spheres/explorations...


Anyway I don't play the MU often so it's only speculation from the part of mine.

I've not seen any lands deck run PWers in the side, or at least one that's done well.

The one mana difference between Decay and Pulse is bigger than you think. You have two basics, that means you can drop a dual and cast decay on a Sphere, the Pulse would need a DRS or a turn not being Wastelanded (I know not every game goes this route, but it's fairly common). Decay is also better vs Port for obvious Reasons.

[btm10]

My questions are aside from Liliana of the Veil, how have people beat Miracles consistently? Is there a modification that would help for that match up?

I have not found Jace, Vryn's Prodigy too good in the main and was considering dropping it. I would shift Jace, the Mind Sculptor in from the board and have a free sideboard slot.

Any suggestions on the sideboard? I may have an open slot or two if I drop the Notion Thief (it is fun to catch a JMS activation, but people do catch on). I like the idea of Sylvan Library but am open to hearing recommendations.

Miracles is basically the only matchup where I've found JVP to be worth it, as he's very good there. But more generally, when you beat Miracles it's because you succeeded at Plan A - generate a ton of card advantage. Liliana is one way of doing that and helps hold your slower starts together, but any way that you can generate card advantage improves that matchup. I've won with Baleful Strix beats more than once, though Hymn is arguably only a conditional 2-for-1 (they need to have at least 2 cards in hand) and so I'm less keen on it when the goal isn't to stop them from ever getting their feet on the ground like it is with Delver. Similarly, you need Force and shouldn't board Decay out even if they're cutting Counterbalance since it's the best way to break up early Entreats for 2-3 Angels.


So, if I understand correctly, the sideboard plan should be:

+4 meddling mage
+1 savannah
+2 surgical extraction
+2 pithing needle
+1 duress

-4 tarmogoyf
-4 ancestral vision
-2 toxic deluge

right?

Based on your board, yes. FWIW, I prefer Nihil Spellbomb to Surgical in this deck. I think Pulse and Duress are both pretty marginal, so it's mostly a wash. I've never seen Lands board in Planeswalkers.

[Whitefaces]

FWIW, I prefer Nihil Spellbomb to Surgical in this deck. I think Pulse and Duress are both pretty marginal, so it's mostly a wash. I've never seen Lands board in Planeswalkers.

I'll second this. I have two leylines in these spots, though they have been a Nihil Spellbomb and something else in the past. Point is, Extraction is a reactive card, Leyline and Spellbomb are proactive which work better with Shardless. While Surgical may be better than Spellbomb in this specific matchup, you're running the risk of bad cascades off agents.

On discard. Like I said, it's not ideal, but better than Pulse. And if you were to only bring in three, cut a thoughtseize as the 2 life might be relevant and they do the same thing.

[Talonhunter3]

Hey all,

First time poster so please bear with me for formatting errors and the like. I've been working on building this deck for approximately six months now and will be going to an event this evening. At this point I am missing the majority of the duals and wasteland from the deck. My list at the current moment is

Land (20)

1x Bayou
2x Breeding Pool
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave

Planeswalker (5)

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery (8)

4x Ancestral Vision
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge

Creature (14)

2x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf

Instant (12)

4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will

Enchantment (1)

1x Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)

2x Arcane Laboratory
1x Baleful Strix
1x Chill
1x Disfigure
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hymn to Tourach
2x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Toxic Deluge

I cut down two lands on the recommendation of a friend of mine who frequently plays legacy. He said that wasteland is not a mana source most of the time anyway so if I did not have it it would be better to run more spells. My only dual at the moment is the bayou so I subbed out duals for shocks. Asking the obvious questions I suppose, is the list playable in this state, what changes could I make to make it more playable (aside from purchasing the remaining pieces) and what nuances should I pay particular attention too? I play GBx in modern so I'm hoping those skills translate somewhat.

Cheers,

Talon

[btm10]

With Shocks instead of Duals you're probably better off playing Delver since it doesn't use its life total as a resource as much as Shardless. If you're sold on Shardless I think a Fetch/Tango/Shock/Basic manabase is better that all Shocks. 4 Liliana is a lot - they're pretty hideous in multiples except against D&T, so I'd cut 2 for Wastelands if you have them. The Darkslick Shores is definitely better as basic Island, and I'd try to work a U/B Tango Land in somewhere. Wasteland IS a mana source in this deck a lot of the time, and I'd want it to deal with problematic nonbasics like Karakas and Grove of the Burnwillows. I'm not a fan of the Strix in the board, and Arcane Lab is bad if you aren't running more countermagic. What's your expected meta?

[Talonhunter3]

With Shocks instead of Duals you're probably better off playing Delver since it doesn't use its life total as a resource as much as Shardless. If you're sold on Shardless I think a Fetch/Tango/Shock/Basic manabase is better that all Shocks. 4 Liliana is a lot - they're pretty hideous in multiples except against D&T, so I'd cut 2 for Wastelands if you have them. The Darkslick Shores is definitely better as basic Island, and I'd try to work a U/B Tango Land in somewhere. Wasteland IS a mana source in this deck a lot of the time, and I'd want it to deal with problematic nonbasics like Karakas and Grove of the Burnwillows. I'm not a fan of the Strix in the board, and Arcane Lab is bad if you aren't running more countermagic. What's your expected meta?

I was told that Delver required wastelands (which I don't yet have) so I should play a midrange variant. The argument as I recall was mana denial was really important to Team America Delver decks.

If I were to cut Liliana's without being able to replace them with wastelands what would the optimal replacement be?

I'll look into rebuilding the manabase for sure. Is running a budget wasteland such as ghost quarter viable given that it is used to remove specific lands rather than mana screw your opponent?

The board is a disaster, I'm really new to legacy so I looked at winning lists and cobbled it together. :frown:

Metawise I know there is: Tin fins, UB reanimator w/ show and tell, Deathblade and a Jund player. That is by no means an exhaustive list as the turnout is usually around 15 people.

Thanks for your help so far :).

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

What's the logic behind running a Savannah over a Scrubland? Fetch-wise it doesn't matter, as you'll only have one fetch that can't get it either way. Is the additional green source for Decay that much more important in the matchups you'd bring in Mages against? I feel like I'd much rather have more black for discard if the Mages are coming in already.

[btm10]

What's the logic behind running a Savannah over a Scrubland? Fetch-wise it doesn't matter, as you'll only have one fetch that can't get it either way. Is the additional green source for Decay that much more important in the matchups you'd bring in Mages against? I feel like I'd much rather have more black for discard if the Mages are coming in already.

Scrubland pairs with Windswept Heath as the last fetchland, and Bayou is the only black source Heath can find in games where you don't board the Scrubland in. The only lands Marsh Flats can't find are basic Forest and Trop, which are the least important lands in the deck.


I was told that Delver required wastelands (which I don't yet have) so I should play a midrange variant. The argument as I recall was mana denial was really important to Team America Delver decks.

If I were to cut Liliana's without being able to replace them with wastelands what would the optimal replacement be?

I'll look into rebuilding the manabase for sure. Is running a budget wasteland such as ghost quarter viable given that it is used to remove specific lands rather than mana screw your opponent?

The board is a disaster, I'm really new to legacy so I looked at winning lists and cobbled it together. :frown:

Metawise I know there is: Tin fins, UB reanimator w/ show and tell, Deathblade and a Jund player. That is by no means an exhaustive list as the turnout is usually around 15 people.

Thanks for your help so far :).

Your friend is right that you really can't play BUG Delver without Wasteland. With that meta I'd do something like:

-2 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Thoughtseize

and try this as a sideboard:

3 Graveyard hate (Probably 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 2 Nihil Spellbomb or 1 Cage, 1 Spellbomb, 1 Leyline of the Void)
3 Duress
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge OR 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal OR 1 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique OR Phyrexian Revoker

Alternatively, if you have a Temple Garden or Godless Shrine (and the appropriate fetches) you can try the Meddling Mage plan. In the combo matchups where you want Meddling Mage, the life lost from Shocks won't matter.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Scrubland pairs with Windswept Heath as the last fetchland, and Bayou is the only black source Heath can find in games where you don't board the Scrubland in. The only lands Marsh Flats can't find are basic Forest and Trop, which are the least important lands in the deck.

I don't follow that Scrubland pairs with Heath just because Savannah pairs with Flats.

Mana base: 4 Underground Sea, 1 Tropical Island, 1 Bayou, 1 Swamp, 1 Forest

Fetches with Savannah in the sideboard:
- 4 Verdant Catacombs - can get everything
- 4 Misty Rainforest - can't get Swamp
- 1 Polluted Delta - can't get Forest or Savannah
- 1 Marsh Flats - can't get Forest or Tropical Island

Fetches with Scrubland in the sideboard:
- 4 Verdant Catacombs - can get everything
- 4 Polluted Delta - can't get Forest
- 1 Misty Rainforest - can't get Swamp or Scrubland
- 1 Marsh Flats - can't get Forest or Tropical

So in both situations you have only one fetch land that can't fetch your white source. It feels like there's a real trade off here between accessing green vs. black, and if you're already bringing in combo hate, I'd much rather have easier access to black.

Am I missing something here?

[btm10]

You're cutting the Forest for the white source either way, and are probably leading on Sea (or fetch into Sea) in almost all of your keepable hands. I don't think you're making some huge concession by running Scrubland. I avoid this issue entirely by not running Meddling Mage, but when I ran Mage neither Savannah nor Scrubland posed a problem. Either way, you really want to be able to cast Agent on turn 3 off of any land, so you can't just ignore green mana. Scrubland forces you to open by fetching out Trop (or playing Trop) to have access to UBGW on turn 2, and lets you fetch Sea, Savannah, Sea rather than Trop, Scrubland, Sea, so your 3 land mana is just better with Savannah.

[kingtk3]

@Ephemeron, Dissection and btm10: thank you for your advices!

@PhyrexianLibrarian: since the first land you will fetch will almost always be Underground sea, having Savannah instead of Scrubland lets you have all four colors with two lands. Also mind that in a deck without many double Black casting costs (ie, no Hymn, only 2-3 Lilies) it is not so much imperative to get double black asap.

[LarsLeif]

The 4 Sea, 1 Trop, 1 Bayou + Forest/Swamp setup favors the Savannah much more as the point of that build is to fetch out a forest and then just keep fetching up underground seas vs wasteland. Thus you want to max out on fetches that get Forest and underground sea. Keep in mind however that one of the concessions Lejay and myself did with that manabase is not running any strixes or hymns, as they are uncastable with a basic forest.

Furthermore, I don't agree that Liliana is bad in multiples. If you have a manabase without wasteland i think it's perfectly reasonable to max out on that type of card. The new legend rule + that you can discard liliana to liliana +1 makes running 3-4 pretty unproblematic.

[btm10]

Furthermore, I don't agree that Liliana is bad in multiples. If you have a manabase without wasteland i think it's perfectly reasonable to max out on that type of card. The new legend rule + that you can discard liliana to liliana +1 makes running 3-4 pretty unproblematic.

I overstated how bad 4 Lilianas is in general - she's great in midrange mirrors as well, though a touch expensive to go all-in on in Delver matchups - but with Talonhunter's expected meta I don't think 4 is correct. There's too much fast combo for her to be much good and the early interaction Thoughtseize provides is especially important. That being said, I'm on a heavy Planeswalker list right now (3 Liliana/2 Jace) since my local is amenable to it, but it's not suitable everywhere all the time.

[mrschro]

Is null rod really helpful in shutting down RG lands? I don't think we hit a lot of cards in that deck. I'm pretty inexperienced in this match up as well. Would appreciate your inputs.

Cheers

You may be right about not getting too much value out of the Null Rod but it went the extra distance. Shutting down the Mox Diamond set him back quite a bit. If you don't have something to take out for this or if you're on the draw it may be a back card to bring in.

[Talonhunter3]

Hey all,
Thanks to your guys input and the info available from this thread I went 2-1 at the first event I've played with the deck. I beat tin fins, UW Show and Tell and lost to Alluren combo. My list that I settled on was:
Land (22)
1x Bayou
1x Breeding Pool
1x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Lumbering Falls
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Tainted Wood
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
Sorcery (9)
4x Ancestral Vision
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
Creature (14)
2x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
Instant (12)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
Planeswalker (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
1x Disfigure
1x Dismember
3x Duress
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Krosan Grip
1x Leyline of the Void
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvan Library
1x Toxic Deluge

Just wanted to sincerely thank you guys for being patient with a new player with a budget deck variant. After tonight, I'll be prioritizing Wastelands as my next purchase. Ghost quarters felt really bad :X.

[janluis1]

How can I compete against lands?
Whats our main strategy?
What do you board in and board out?

Im on discardless list

[Whitefaces]

How can I compete against lands?
Whats our main strategy?
What do you board in and board out?

Im on discardless list

This was discussed on the last page.

Basically board goyfs and visions out, MMs and GY hate etc in.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

OK I'm going from memory here because my notes are at home, but I went 4-3-1 at SCG Jersey with a MD discard version:

2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

3 Meddling Mage
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Ob Nixilis, Re-ignited
1 Scrubland

R1: 1-1-1 against Shardless. What a way to start the day, all three games ended up in a draw-go battle and despite drawing a LOT more cards than him, I couldn't close the games out fast enough and neither could he.

In: 1 Ob Nixilis, 2 Disfigure, 1 Nihil Spellbomb
Out: 4 Force of Will

R2: 2-0 against Miracles. I think this is a good matchup for us by a very thin margin, but I think my opponent was new to the deck and made a few big mistakes. The biggest being stacking a Top wrong and attempting to stop a lethal attack by drawing a Mentor instead of the Terminus that was the next card down!

In: 1 Ob Nixilis, 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Thoughtseize
Out: 4 Force of Will, 2 Jace

R3: 2-0 against MUD. Piece of cake, I did what Shardless does (Goyf + Deathrite him to death) and he did what MUD does (draw lots of ramp and no gas and lose to his own deck :tongue: ). A friend of mine plays MUD and said I didn't need to prepare against this matchup because my odds of encountering it were so low.

In: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 1 Ancestral, 1 Tarmogoyf, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 I can't remember. This board plan is wrong, I probably should cut some number of Decays instead.

R4: 2-0 against BUG Delver. I can't remember this match too well but I don't recall feeling threatened at any point. They can't come back from a resolved Vision.

In: 2 Disfigure
Out: 2 Hymn to Tourach

Interesting plays:

- With a Goyf on board, I attacking into a Gurmag Angler with a Shardless Agent. It immediately put his suspicions up and he lets it through. The next turn I draw & cast a Strix and attack with the Goyf (currently a 4/5). He blocks with the Angler, and I Abrupt Decay the Strix to turn the Goyf into a 6/7 and kill the Angler. It was game over after that.

R5: 2-1 against Grixis Delver. I think I got a bit next levelled here, as I was very careful to play around Stifle and Wasteland, but never saw either of those cards so maybe he wasn't running them. Game 1 I got run over by Bolts and Elementals, but post-board the deck runs so many sweepers that Young Pyromancer was useless and I could save all my removal for Anglers.

In: 2 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
Out: 2 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Force of Will

R6: 1-2 against Grixis Painter. I had NO idea what to do against this deck, as he fetched some blue and red sources (OK so maybe Omni or Sneak or Delver), then a bunch of un-identifying artifacts, then Tezzeret out of nowhere? It wasn't until I saw the Painter that I realized what was happening. This guy ended up in 11th place so he clearly knew the matchup more than I did. Game 1 I managed to beat him down with a fast Goyf as he failed to draw into his combo parts or Bridge until it was too late, but Game 2 I couldn't get a threat to stick and he Tezzerated me out, then Game 3 he milled me

Interesting plays:

- Game 2, I had an opening hand with both Null Rod and Meddling Mage on the play, and had to decide which to cast first. I opted for the Null Rod, and the next turn he drops an Ancient Tomb, Painters for blue, and Pyroblasts it. He told me it wouldn't have mattered, as if I'd cast the Mage naming a combo piece he'd have just discarded it and brought it back with a Welder. In retrospect, I could've cast the Mage for Pyroblast, then cast Null Rod on T3. Not a perfect solution, but definitely better.

- Game 3, he has an Ancient Tomb in play. I Thoughtseize him on Turn 2 and see Great Furnace, Blood Moon, Painter, and Grindstone. I picked the Painter and he drew into a Welder to turn his two artifact lands into his combo anyways. He never even cast the Blood Moon, but considering how easy it is for him to get artifacts out of his GY, it should've been the pick anyways.

R7: 0-2 against Elves. He turn 3'd me the first game and turn 4'd me the second. Both games I had the opportunity to Deluge two creatures away (or two + a Dryad), but I thought he'd be able to come back from that so I held off to get more the next turn. Big mistake: this matchup is bad enough that any 2-for-1 is worth it, just to slow them down a bit and increase your chances of drawing another sweeper.

In: 2 Disfigure, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal, 1 Golgari Charm
Out: 2 Jace, 2 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Ancestral Vision, 1 Sylvan Library

R8: 1-2 scoop against Miracles. We ended up going to turns and I conceded to avoid spite-drawing us both out of day 2 contention.

In: Same as Round 2

Highlights:
- Night of Souls' Betrayal and Toxic Deluge are great cards against any decks trying to go wide (Mentor Miracles, Young Peezy).
- Sylvan Library was excellent, it has great synergy with Shardless/Strix and you can usually afford the 4 life at least once.
- Ob Nixilis, Re-ignited is THE NUTS. Seeing your opponent go :eyebrow:, read the card, then go :cry: is amazing. Can't be Decayed, can't be Pyroblasted, draws you cards with a +1, ultimates 3 turns after you cast him, and the emblem shuts down any deck you'd bring it in against. It's perfect and has earned a permanent slot. Ultimate it right away when you can, an extra

Lowlights:
- Myself missing a LOT of Ancestral triggers over the course of the day.
- Hymn to Tourach underperformed, it was never what I wanted to cast on turn 2 and almost never what I wanted to Cascade into.
- I don't like Disfigure but I feel like the board needs more spot removal and there's no great option. Dismember? Murderous Cut? Swords? I'd like to try Dead Weight because the permanence is relevant against decks running Angler and opposing Goyfs. And it's another enchantment to feed your own Goyfs.
- Getting lost on the drive back and the 9 hour drive turning into 12 hours.

Changes I'm going to make:
Maindeck: -2 Hymn, +1 Ancestral Vision, +1 Painful Truths. One of my travel group was on a BUG Delver list running 4x Truths and he said it was by FAR the best card in his deck. I think it's worth trying.
Sideboard: -1 Scrubland, +1 Savannah (with the corresponding fetch changes between Mistys and Deltas). You were all correct about the fetch order, and without main deck Hymns I don't need more black), -2 Disfigure, +2 Dead Weight, and I'd love to find room for a 2nd Toxic Deluge but I'm not sure what to cut.

[weiuweiu]

What do you think about a oneoff Tasigur in a leejay build? Is it not worth it as he cant be cascaded into?


Skickat från min iPad med Tapatalk

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

What do you think about a oneoff Tasigur in a leejay build? Is it not worth it as he cant be cascaded into?


Skickat från min iPad med Tapatalk

I'd definitely consider it in the sideboard in the Notion Thief/mirror-breaker slot, in a long game you shouldn't have any problem casting him and you'll be able to take full advantage of the milling. It's in line with the deck's game plan, but I wouldn't main deck it. I feel like in Game 1 you want to maximize your potential cascades, imagine how bad it'd feel to send Tasigur to the bottom.

[guybrush3]

I have to say it:
x2 dark confidant much better than x2 b strix .
Test them.

[Quasim0ff]

I have to say it:
x2 dark confidant much better than x2 b strix .
Test them.

Confidant doesn't trade with Delver.

[Ephemeron]

I have to say it:
x2 dark confidant much better than x2 b strix .
Test them.

Or hold back Goyf/Angler

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Pros of Strix:
- flies
- better at blocking
- draws you a card right away
- artifact for Goyf

Pros of Bob:
- draws removal away from DRS/Goyf
- draws you more cards than Strix IF it survives two turns

I know cards are better than life, but I think Bob's draws costing you an average of 2.25 life per card could actually make a difference over a long game. Between Strix, Jace, Shardless, Ancestral, and whatever else you're running, not having enough cards doesn't seem like a problem.

[ironclad8690]

Has anyone else felt a really steep increase in bad matchups lately? Like, everyone is metagaming against us and we are way easier to metagame against than Miracles. Examples: Lands, Burn, Storm (not the worst but certainly not "happy" to face it), UR Price of Progress Snapcaster Mage.dec

I have actually been having a pretty hard time vs the Grixis stifle variants too, they just get so far ahead and go so wide. In the good old days we could just play a liliana eventually and she would at least kill a good creature. These new grixis decks can just laugh at liliana but she is still a necessity because of Angler.

[wcm8]

Has anyone else felt a really steep increase in bad matchups lately? Like, everyone is metagaming against us and we are way easier to metagame against than Miracles. Examples: Lands, Burn, Storm (not the worst but certainly not "happy" to face it), UR Price of Progress Snapcaster Mage.dec

I have actually been having a pretty hard time vs the Grixis stifle variants too, they just get so far ahead and go so wide. In the good old days we could just play a liliana eventually and she would at least kill a good creature. These new grixis decks can just laugh at liliana but she is still a necessity because of Angler.

That's where innovation comes in. The thing about BUG ('Sultai'), is that it grants access to pretty much any tool needed to handle a particular problem. I'm not sure that you'd necessarily want to gear your sideboard too much to beat any one particular matchup that you mentioned, but the tools are there:

-Burn and UR Delver struggles against Chill. One copy should slow them down enough to get ahead with the help of DRS + Goyf, and multiples might just shut them off of playing spells. Try to avoid getting blown out by PoP by fetching your Basic lands when possible, or at least leave up a Wasteland to go after your own lands if necessary. Tarmogoyf outsizes most removal spells these decks run and is especially important in these matches.
-Lands requires some amount of graveyard hate to deal with Loam + (to a somewhat lesser extent) Punishing Fire. You also want to play carefully so as to avoid a blowout against Marit Lage (leave your Wastelands up, consider running some number of Submerge. Pithing Needle is a catch-all answer available to BUG, but you can also consider running a Tsabo's Web if Lands becomes especially prevalent. Some games you can just land a couple Goyfs, Force their relevant spells and race them.
-Storm: are you playing SB discard spells? Meddling Mage? Ethersworn Canonist? Even if you don't want to splash white, there's the option of Arcane Laboratory. Deathrite also does a good job of cutting off Past in Flames.
-Grixis/Mentor -- ok, tokens do invalidate Liliana, but BUG has access to plenty of options of wiping out 1/1s -- Golgari Charm, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague, Night of Soul's Betrayal, Darkblast (to an extent), Illness in the Ranks, Toxic Deluge, etc. You want some sweepers in the SB for sure. Goyf is still problematic for decks who run Red for their primary removal spells.

If it's to the extent that BUG is just being hated on super-hard in your local, perhaps its time to put it away for a while and run a different deck. You also can shift from running the midrange version and instead go tempo as BUG Delver -- a stronger deck against some of the archetypes you mentioned and can play a similar midrange strategy with the right sideboard configuration.

[btm10]

-Storm: are you playing SB discard spells? Meddling Mage? Ethersworn Canonist? Even if you don't want to splash white, there's the option of Arcane Laboratory. Deathrite also does a good job of cutting off Past in Flames.
-Grixis/Mentor -- ok, tokens do invalidate Liliana, but BUG has access to plenty of options of wiping out 1/1s -- Golgari Charm, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague, Night of Soul's Betrayal, Darkblast (to an extent), Illness in the Ranks, Toxic Deluge, etc. You want some sweepers in the SB for sure. Goyf is still problematic for decks who run Red for their primary removal spells.


Just wanted to add to these two points:

Against Storm, Phyrexian Revoker (generally naming LED) is amazing, especially when coupled with your discard and Graveyard hate. Alternatively, I had a fair bit of success with Thorn of Amethyst against Omnitell, TES, and ANT during the Dig Through Time era.

I really haven't had a problem against the Pyromancer and Mentor decks. They can make a ton of creatures, but Liliana's +1 is still relevant game 1 (since it effectively consumes a token-making opportunity) and it takes a whole lot of tokens to attack into even a pretty anemic board presence of DRS+Agent. I feel reliably favored against them, even if the Liliana lock isn't quite as hard as it is against something like RUG. This may also be because I'm running additional MD removal (2 Dimir Charm, 2 Strix, 2 Liliana, 4 Decay) so Pyromancer and Mentor tend to not survive as long as they might against someone who has less spot removal or is running more discard (I'm running none), and therefore get out of hand less often for me.

[screallix]

Nice job! We heve the same point of view. (just not sure about the duress against RUG, i don't like discard in this MU)
I'm waiting for sideboarding plans and match-ups in your next article:laugh:

So, my team mate continued his "An Eye on Legacy: Shardless" series and wrote some sideboard plans and matchup analysis.

You can find it at: https://bordifies.com/articles/an-eye-on-legacy-2-shardless-bug-matchups-and-sideboarding/

Kind regards,
screallix

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

So, my team mate continued his "An Eye on Legacy: Shardless" series and wrote some sideboard plans and matchup analysis.

You can find it at: https://bordifies.com/articles/an-eye-on-legacy-2-shardless-bug-matchups-and-sideboarding/

Kind regards,
screallix

Granted, my board is a bit different, but I would never board out both Deluges against Miracles. It's your best out to a resolved Mentor, even better than Decay as it wipes the slate clean and lets you save the Decays for the RIP and Counterbalance (which they'll try to bait out beforehand, if they're anything like my opponents). And CMC3 is more awkward for them to try and Counterbalance. I can see cutting one, but I'd rather have one than the fourth discard spell for sure.

I've actually started to cut Force of Wills instead, since they have a much smaller number of must-counter threats now that some don't run Entreat at all.

Edit: Cutting both Deluges against RUG Delver because life points matter, but bringing in 3 Thoughtseizes? :eyebrow:

[fluuu]

Granted, my board is a bit different, but I would never board out both Deluges against Miracles. It's your best out to a resolved Mentor, even better than Decay as it wipes the slate clean and lets you save the Decays for the RIP and Counterbalance (which they'll try to bait out beforehand, if they're anything like my opponents). And CMC3 is more awkward for them to try and Counterbalance. I can see cutting one, but I'd rather have one than the fourth discard spell for sure.

I've actually started to cut Force of Wills instead, since they have a much smaller number of must-counter threats now that some don't run Entreat at all.

Edit: Cutting both Deluges against RUG Delver because life points matter, but bringing in 3 Thoughtseizes? :eyebrow:

Can u post ur list please?

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Can u post ur list please?

It's on the last page, the big difference is that I'm running less explicit combo hate (3 Mages, 2 Thoughtseize) in exchange for better game against what I expected to face at Jersey (Ob Nixilis, Golgari Charm, etc). In my local shop I don't see a whole lot of combo players, maybe one Elves guy and the occasional Reanimator but that's about it. On the other hand I see a LOT of Delvers, Miracles, Lands, D&T, and mirrors (and one guy on Enchantress). It's a pretty spiky crowd.