[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[LarsLeif]

Granted, my board is a bit different, but I would never board out both Deluges against Miracles. It's your best out to a resolved Mentor, even better than Decay as it wipes the slate clean and lets you save the Decays for the RIP and Counterbalance (which they'll try to bait out beforehand, if they're anything like my opponents). And CMC3 is more awkward for them to try and Counterbalance. I can see cutting one, but I'd rather have one than the fourth discard spell for sure.

I've actually started to cut Force of Wills instead, since they have a much smaller number of must-counter threats now that some don't run Entreat at all.

It's probably more correct to bring in NoSB (if you play that card) over any deluges. NoSB can be played proactively, and deals with all snappys, cliques and mentors at once. I wouldn't cut forces even if some lists plays 1 instead of 2 entreats, there are still plenty of cards that might require a force.

[Homason]

Hey Guys,
I actually wrote the article. I want to explain the RUG Sb:

The first Version of the Deck had 2x Duress and 2x Thoughtseize in the Board. I brought in 2x Duress, Savannah and StoP. In the current version I would bring in 2-4 Discard Spells depending on how agressiv my Opponent is playing. Jace and Deluge can be countered to easy (Pierce esp.) .
Btw. a proactive Thoughtseize can save a big amount of damage by taking a counter (to resolve Lili) or Dude.

To Miracle:
Deluge is really bad in this mu. Remember: You are the Beatdown! Deluge is only good in one situation....
NoSB would be the better card because it shuts down Clique and Snappy. But I want bring it in. Decay is good enough most of the time. They need to cast MM mostly to protect their own life-total. I dont't think he is such a big problem at all.

[screallix]

Hey Guys,
I actually wrote the article. I want to explain the RUG Sb:

The first Version of the Deck had 2x Duress and 2x Thoughtseize in the Board. I brought in 2x Duress, Savannah and StoP. In the current version I would bring in 2-4 Discard Spells depending on how agressiv my Opponent is playing. Jace and Deluge can be countered to easy (Pierce esp.) .
Btw. a proactive Thoughtseize can save a big amount of damage by taking a counter (to resolve Lili) or Dude.

To Miracle:
Deluge is really bad in this mu. Remember: You are the Beatdown! Deluge is only good in one situation....
NoSB would be the better card because it shuts down Clique and Snappy. But I want bring it in. Decay is good enough most of the time. They need to cast MM mostly to protect their own life-total. I dont't think he is such a big problem at all.

I think Homason is right in both match ups. I always feel like you need to push through the important spells in the RUG match up and without additional discards it's almost impossible. Thoughtseize also protects your Manabase by taking Stifle if you need to fetch.

Against Miracles I think leaving in one Toxic is okay but I can also understand cutting both, since they are sorcery speed and only good against Mentor. As a Miracles player I always feel like if I'm able to stick a Monastery Mentor longer than two turns I'm 80% to win. Toxic might be only good in that spot and as he said Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse is fine, too. I think this tech needs to be thoroughly tested, as I've heard from a few players they also board out Monastery Mentor since they're expecting cards like NoSb, Dread of Night, Toxic Deluge, etc.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

If my opponent board out their Mentors and tries to lean even heavier on the Jace plan post-board, I am totally fine with that. NoSB still shuts down Cliques and Snapcasters, and I'm a lot more scared of a field of Monks than a single Jace.

What would they bring in Meddling Mage for? Abrupt Decay? Not all Miracles players run MM at all, and among those who do, I can't imagine that's a common SB plan against Shardless.

[Homason]

If my opponent board out their Mentors and tries to lean even heavier on the Jace plan post-board, I am totally fine with that. NoSB still shuts down Cliques and Snapcasters, and I'm a lot more scared of a field of Monks than a single Jace.

What would they bring in Meddling Mage for? Abrupt Decay? Not all Miracles players run MM at all, and among those who do, I can't imagine that's a common SB plan against Shardless.

I ment MM = Monastery mentor. They don't run Meddling Mages, I agree :-)

[ironclad8690]

So I will be playing in the Legacy 5k this weekend in Vegas. I am a little nervous because the Invi will bring some top quality players, but I am feeling confident in the deck and my abilities.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland (more lands.dec lately)
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
1 Scrubland
2 Meddling Mage
1 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

This list feels pretty good, and it is easy to play.

I am debating the 3rd Baleful Strix, thinking about putting a Sylvan Library instead, but I like to default to being good against creature decks as opposed to slower strategies.

Sideboard I am trying to find a way to fit in Night of Souls Betrayal as a more permanent answer to small creatures, but I think the Charms might just be better in that they only cost 2.

I will let you guys know how it goes.

[Vandalize]

So I will be playing in the Legacy 5k this weekend in Vegas. I am a little nervous because the Invi will bring some top quality players, but I am feeling confident in the deck and my abilities.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland (more lands.dec lately)
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
1 Scrubland
2 Meddling Mage
1 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

This list feels pretty good, and it is easy to play.

I am debating the 3rd Baleful Strix, thinking about putting a Sylvan Library instead, but I like to default to being good against creature decks as opposed to slower strategies.

Sideboard I am trying to find a way to fit in Night of Souls Betrayal as a more permanent answer to small creatures, but I think the Charms might just be better in that they only cost 2.

I will let you guys know how it goes.

Maybe -1 Strix +1 Deluge? Deluge is pretty important in this deck to have only 1.

[ironclad8690]

Maybe -1 Strix +1 Deluge? Deluge is pretty important in this deck to have only 1.

Hm, yes, I might do that. My list is a little hybridy between the American and European versions in that I play more wastelands, so another Deluge might be quite good, at least in the 75 if not the 60. Thanks!

[Kyle]

Primer update time.

I've been AFD (Away From Deck) for a while, but seeing that it's DTB I should get my ass in gear and update the primer. Anything in particular I should add?

[ironclad8690]

Primer update time.

I've been AFD (Away From Deck) for a while, but seeing that it's DTB I should get my ass in gear and update the primer. Anything in particular I should add?

White splash out of sb for Meddling Mage probably deserves a mention, as does Jace, Vryn's Prodigy as a 1 or 2 of. Neither are really universal, but both are common.

Oh, and maybe put something in about Toxic Deluge in either MD and/or sideboard section, everybody at least plays 1 maindeck now.

As far as the matchup section maybe add something about Monastery Mentor to the Miracles section, I feel as though our sideboard plan has changed vs that deck since the printing of that card.

[wcm8]

White splash out of sb for Meddling Mage probably deserves a mention, as does Jace, Vryn's Prodigy as a 1 or 2 of. Neither are really universal, but both are common.

Oh, and maybe put something in about Toxic Deluge in either MD and/or sideboard section, everybody at least plays 1 maindeck now.

As far as the matchup section maybe add something about Monastery Mentor to the Miracles section, I feel as though our sideboard plan has changed vs that deck since the printing of that card.

The White splash also offers access to other great sideboard cards, especially Ethersworn Canonist.

If I were writing a new primer for the deck, I would also include a section on deciding whether to run discard spells main deck ("American" lists), or drop discard from the main entirely and shift it to the sideboard along with a white splash for combo matches (lists typically attributed to Lejay). Both approaches are valid.

[Weatherman]

So I will be playing in the Legacy 5k this weekend in Vegas. I am a little nervous because the Invi will bring some top quality players, but I am feeling confident in the deck and my abilities.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland (more lands.dec lately)
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
1 Scrubland
2 Meddling Mage
1 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

This list feels pretty good, and it is easy to play.

I am debating the 3rd Baleful Strix, thinking about putting a Sylvan Library instead, but I like to default to being good against creature decks as opposed to slower strategies.

Sideboard I am trying to find a way to fit in Night of Souls Betrayal as a more permanent answer to small creatures, but I think the Charms might just be better in that they only cost 2.

I will let you guys know how it goes.

I played Shardless in the Denver 5k last weekend. Just wanted to give you a heads up that mono-R and R/W Painter was all over the place - I played that matchup 3 rounds in a row and most other rounds had a Painter player sitting near me. Only one of the Painter players made top 16 so it might not be apparent from the published results how big a share of the meta that deck was.

Not sure if this was an anomaly for Denver or if that's normal for the SCG meta but you should have a plan for that matchup this weekend.

[ironclad8690]

I played Shardless in the Denver 5k last weekend. Just wanted to give you a heads up that mono-R and R/W Painter was all over the place - I played that matchup 3 rounds in a row and most other rounds had a Painter player sitting near me. Only one of the Painter players made top 16 so it might not be apparent from the published results how big a share of the meta that deck was.

Not sure if this was an anomaly for Denver or if that's normal for the SCG meta but you should have a plan for that matchup this weekend.

Hm thanks for the heads up. I haven't tested that matchup very much, but I did have pretty good results against painter with Jund.

[btm10]

Hm thanks for the heads up. I haven't tested that matchup very much, but I did have pretty good results against painter with Jund.

I've been very pleased with 1-2 Dimir Charm in the main over the past month or so. As RUG and BUG Delver are becoming less popular relative to Grixis the main arguments against it (not killing Goose and Goyf) have gottrn weaker. It kills Pyromancer, Mentor (which in turn makes Liliana much better), Deathrite, every creature in Infect, Painter, Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confidant, Thalia, and I'm sure I'm forgetting more. The counter half is especially relevant because people aren't playing around it. It's easily +5% to your Miracles matchup by itself, since it answers both Terminus and Entreat for 2 mana, and ia surprisingly good against Show and Tell and Storm variants.

[ironclad8690]

Went 3-1in the grinder losing the first round to storm but then winning the following 3 against death and taxes, uw blade, and uwr delver.

Deck feels solid for tomorrow (list is the same as above).

[btm10]

Good luck!

[ironclad8690]

Ended up 3rd in the whole thing (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=96373). Was pretty stoked!

Miracles (Jarvis Yu): 2-0
Infect: 2-1
Sneak and Show: 0-2
Reanimator: 2-1
Infect: 2-1
BUG Delver (Rory Drexler): 2-1
Sneak and Show (Will Craddock): 2-1

Top 8:
Storm (Micah Greenbaum): 2-0 (though he basically just scooped to me as prizes were the same and he was already qualified)
Grixis Delver: 0-2

Total match record between the challenge and the classic event: 10-3

All in all it was an awesome tournament. Props to my friends for travelling with me, to my opponents for all being chill and reasonable people, and to the people at my LGS (Plus Ev Games, Santa Barbara) for being good testing partners!

[wcm8]

Congrats on the finish.

The only thing about your list I'm a bit iffy on is the White splash. You are only running 2 copies Meddling Mage, and no other White cards. Yet you are still spending a sideboard slot for Scrubland. It just seems to me that the White splash only justifies itself if you are running 4-6+ White cards, as otherwise there are probably other cards in Sultai-colors that can achieve a similar effect.

Don't get me wrong; MMage is an amazing SB card and especially great in Shardless since you can cascade into it, it pitches to FoW, and doubles as a clock + disruption... but I feel like the White splash is sort of 'all or nothing' and Meddling Mage tends to be better in multiples in case the opponent can deal with the first copy.

Then again, Shardless BUG is already so good against certain decks that it doesn't really even need to go overboard with sideboarding, so perhaps "burning" a slot on Scrubland is okay even if it's only being utilized for a couple of cards.

[btm10]

Congrats on your finish!

I've been lukewarm on Meddling Mage for a while, and I increasingly don't see what Mage does that Phyrexian Revoker doesn't. If anything, handles Sneak and Show better (since even if they get Sneak Attack into play via Show and Tell they still can't activate it) and Storm a little worse (I usually find myself naming LED, which works pretty well). The extra SB slot can go to something fairly versatile too, so I increasingly think that Revoker is the better option.

[ironclad8690]

Hm, I will say that Revoker would have been better against Sneak and Show that is for sure.

Meddling Mage did help me vs Reanimator where my opponent was at a low life total and I was able to name Exhume, limiting my opponent to needing to use Reanimate on something of mine or his Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (neither of which were scary compared to what he could get).

Meddling Mage is a very skill-testing card to play, and I think people over sideboard with it. I only bring it in vs combo decks and Lands because at least I know what to name a good portion of the time.

It might be nice to cut white and see what happens, or maybe put a Containment Priest in there instead. If I were to cut white, I think I would put 2 Thoughtseizes in the maindeck and play some actual graveyard hate like Spellbomb or Surgical Extraction.

[Whitefaces]

Meddling Mage did help me vs Reanimator where my opponent was at a low life total and I was able to name Exhume, limiting my opponent to needing to use Reanimate on something of mine or his Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (neither of which were scary compared to what he could get).

Meddling Mage is a very skill-testing card to play, and I think people over sideboard with it. I only bring it in vs combo decks and Lands because at least I know what to name a good portion of the time.

It might be nice to cut white and see what happens, or maybe put a Containment Priest in there instead. If I were to cut white, I think I would put 2 Thoughtseizes in the maindeck and play some actual graveyard hate like Spellbomb or Surgical Extraction.

Congrats on the result!

On MM, I agree, people overboard with it. I think its purpose is actually quite misunderstood. It's a high impact card specifically for combo matchups that allows you to attack on multiple angles for the builds with no discard MD since you're sacrificing G1 for better fair matchups.

The distribution of two drops (and their inclusion) is actually quite complex that ties into the manabase a lot. It's so important to be able to sequence T1 discard into either Hymn or MM postboard (if you run both. If there are no Hymns you want a Savannah in the board to fetch Sea > Sav and have all 4 colours). In your build you have a Misty Rainforest that doesn't fetch the Scrubland, which probably should be a Flooded Strand as it fetches Sea and Scrub to cast MM as well as discard. The Forest also looks super awkward as you can't cast Hymn or Strix off it G1, I assume it's then sided out vs all combo decks?

I also really don't understand not running a full set of MM, when did people start doing this? Unless there is something funky going on with SB tables I've missed, MM is a straight swap for goyfs vs combo. You can't afford to leave them in as you need to maximize your cascades off agents.

[ironclad8690]

Hm, interesting, I usually leave 3-4 goyfs in vs combo because they are the fastest clock that we have, but I could certainly be wrong.

As for the 2 Meddling, I could see going up to 3 or 4 if you don't have any discard maindeck.

Basic forest stays in vs Blood Moon combo decks but comes out vs others for the Scrubland. Vs blood moon combo I board out the Tropical.

[Prestonian]

Hi all:

Just started playing Shardless in the last week and love it! I use to play RW Painter but ended up getting pretty bored with it.

I went 3-0-1 tonight in a 12 man tourney. Highlight of the night was when on turn 2 opponent casts Show and Tell, he reveals Emrakul, I reveal Shardless Agent. Cascade goes, Land and then Toxic Deluge where I hit him for 15 and kill Emrakul. I proceed to land a Sylvan library and Goyf and beat face for the win.

Anyways, I have been running 2 Sylvin Libraries and really love it. The CA is excellent and it sets up Shardless quite nicely as well.

Any thoughts on running 2 SL maindeck?

[LarsLeif]

Hi all:

Just started playing Shardless in the last week and love it! I use to play RW Painter but ended up getting pretty bored with it.

I went 3-0-1 tonight in a 12 man tourney. Highlight of the night was when on turn 2 opponent casts Show and Tell, he reveals Emrakul, I reveal Shardless Agent. Cascade goes, Land and then Toxic Deluge where I hit him for 15 and kill Emrakul. I proceed to land a Sylvan library and Goyf and beat face for the win.

Anyways, I have been running 2 Sylvin Libraries and really love it. The CA is excellent and it sets up Shardless quite nicely as well.

Any thoughts on running 2 SL maindeck?

How do you mean "reveal Shardless agent"? You know the cascade only triggers when you cast the spell? If you put it in with SnT there is no cascade, but maybe you mean that you cast it on your turn. Also, what do you mean with "Cascade goes, Land and then Toxic Deluge"? Deluge costs 3 so it is not a valid cascade target, only spells with converted mana cost 2 or less (in the case of Shardless Agent) works.

Sylvan is very good, but poor in multiples and the cost of 4 life for an extra card is sometimes too much in some matchups. I recommend one.

Anyways, welcome to the deck! :)

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Hi all:

Just started playing Shardless in the last week and love it! I use to play RW Painter but ended up getting pretty bored with it.

I went 3-0-1 tonight in a 12 man tourney. Highlight of the night was when on turn 2 opponent casts Show and Tell, he reveals Emrakul, I reveal Shardless Agent. Cascade goes, Land and then Toxic Deluge where I hit him for 15 and kill Emrakul. I proceed to land a Sylvan library and Goyf and beat face for the win.

Anyways, I have been running 2 Sylvin Libraries and really love it. The CA is excellent and it sets up Shardless quite nicely as well.

Any thoughts on running 2 SL maindeck?

Yeah... you lost that game, sorry. Cascade only triggers on casting, not entering the battlefield, so it doesn't work with S&T. And even if it did, you can't cascade into Deluge because it's not CMC < 3.

[hobart]

Hi all:

Just started playing Shardless in the last week and love it! I use to play RW Painter but ended up getting pretty bored with it.

I went 3-0-1 tonight in a 12 man tourney. Highlight of the night was when on turn 2 opponent casts Show and Tell, he reveals Emrakul, I reveal Shardless Agent. Cascade goes, Land and then Toxic Deluge where I hit him for 15 and kill Emrakul. I proceed to land a Sylvan library and Goyf and beat face for the win.

Anyways, I have been running 2 Sylvin Libraries and really love it. The CA is excellent and it sets up Shardless quite nicely as well.

Any thoughts on running 2 SL maindeck?

I'd also like to add, if "revealing from show and tell" actually cast anything your opponent would get a time walk trigger, which he definitely should not. Also, in the case of Toxic deluge, even it did have cmc < 3 the life paid is part of the cost which you cannot pay off of a cascade, so you'd only be able to cast deluge for 0.

[Prestonian]

How do you mean "reveal Shardless agent"? You know the cascade only triggers when you cast the spell? If you put it in with SnT there is no cascade, but maybe you mean that you cast it on your turn. Also, what do you mean with "Cascade goes, Land and then Toxic Deluge"? Deluge costs 3 so it is not a valid cascade target, only spells with converted mana cost 2 or less (in the case of Shardless Agent) works.

Sylvan is very good, but poor in multiples and the cost of 4 life for an extra card is sometimes too much in some matchups. I recommend one.

Anyways, welcome to the deck! :)

Sorry for the amateur hour!

Luckily the guy I was playing is a buddy of mine.

[Kamus]

What's the best number of wastelands? I usually see 2 or 3, not sure what's best

[ironclad8690]

I think the general consensus is that 2 is the "right" number, but having 3 has saved my butt countless times vs infect and lands. Some people are even playing 4 in the discardless lists, and I think that is fine too, I just like the discard.

[btm10]

I'm pretty happy with 3 as well. I'd have to cut my Creeping Tar Pit for the 4th, and I think the first Tar Pit is better than the 4th Wasteland.

[NipyN]

I just began playing Shardless a couple of weeks ago, and I've played it at a couple of weeklies so far.

How do you guys feel about a Sylvan Library in the mainboard? Personally I love this card, and in my meta it's probably better than elsewhere because there's a ton of grindy matchups to have. I'm just unsure if I should cut it for a third Baleful Strix instead.

Also, opinions on 2 Jace over 1? It would be taking the same slot up as the Strix/Library I'm pretty sure, but I could be wrong.

I'm just trying to see the reasons to play which cards over what. Pretty new to the deck, I'm usually on BUG Delver or Food Chain.

[Ephemeron]

Does anyone have advice for beating Grixis Delver? I've been getting my teeth kicked in by that deck recently (while beating just about everything else) and it's starting to frustrate me a bit. The combo of being able to go wide with pyromancer plus huge with gurmag angler all while fucking with your mana base is pretty irritating. This is my list:

1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Wasteland

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
2x Baleful Strix
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace the Mind Sculptor

3x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
1x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
4x Force of Will

SB: 15 singletons!

1x Notion Theif
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Arcane Laboratory
1x Golgari Charm
1x Duress (would be a Thoughtseize if I went to something like an SCG open but I've never ever ever seen Sneak and Show in my meta and I feel like Duress is superior in all other matchups)
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Pithing Needle
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Night of Soul's Betrayal
1x Disfigure
1x Sylvan Library
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Null Rod

Changes I'm considering is cutting the JVP main deck for a 3rd Strix and the Clique in the board for another Disfigure or a Toxic Deluge. Strix is such a hit or miss card though I dunno if I want to go up to 3.

[Draggo]

Does anyone have advice for beating Grixis Delver?

Playing Grixis Delver for a long time, I can tell that the most annoying card Shardless brings from the sideboard is Golgari charm. They remove the army of tokens and the Pyromancers at the same time. Also killing the Clique/True-name that will be brought in from the board if possible.
I think you should try to up the count to 2 of the charms and perhaps add something like Go for the Throat or Murderous Cut (obviously you can't cascade into the second one, having it's up and downside right there).
Personally I'm not a fan of the Disfigure and would proberly run something stronger instead, like the GftT. But not being able to run Lightning Bolt maens you go to the next best thing availeble I suppose.
Night of Soul's Betrayal and Seal of Primordium would proberly the first on the list to ditch for better cards like the Golgari Charm. But then again, you are the Shardless player and proberly have good reason to play those cards.

Basicly what you want to do vs Grixis Delver is go fot the long run. Since Shardless is the card advantage machine of legacy, you should be able to grind out games having more value later in the game. Grixis can play fast-hitting with the Anglers and a small army of tokens. Sweep it and you'll be fine. Removal is key to beating Grixis.

[btm10]

Disfigure is way too good to cut. The first thing I'd do is cut Notion Theif. The card is hot garbage and a giant trap. I'd also cut JVP for either the 4th Visions or Sylvan Library. Not the biggest fan of Deed either, since it's mana intensive and you want to be playing to the board; another Deluge or Disfigure is probably better. Otherwise, your list looks fine for beating Grixis Delver, and I think it's by far the easiest Delver variant to beat. Recognize that they're the beatdown and hunker down on defense. Goyf is fantastic against them as they're usually bigger than Anglers and make most of their Pyromancer attacks awkward. How are you boarding for the matchup?

Edit: The biggest thing to do is maintain Deathrite superiority. If they can't mess with your goyfs effectively, you'll win in tje lomg run.

[MorphBerlin]

Does anyone have advice for beating Grixis Delver? I've been getting my teeth kicked in by that deck recently (while beating just about everything else) and it's starting to frustrate me a bit. The combo of being able to go wide with pyromancer plus huge with gurmag angler all while fucking with your mana base is pretty irritating. This is my list:


SB: 15 singletons!

1x Notion Theif
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Arcane Laboratory
1x Golgari Charm
1x Duress (would be a Thoughtseize if I went to something like an SCG open but I've never ever ever seen Sneak and Show in my meta and I feel like Duress is superior in all other matchups)
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Pithing Needle
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Night of Soul's Betrayal
1x Disfigure
1x Sylvan Library
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Null Rod

Changes I'm considering is cutting the JVP main deck for a 3rd Strix and the Clique in the board for another Disfigure or a Toxic Deluge. Strix is such a hit or miss card though I dunno if I want to go up to 3.

Hey,

I currently play mostly BUG but also Grixis Delver from time to time and I was highly surprised to hear that you are having problems with beating that deck. Normaly I would say, that you are a favorite in this MU. Your mainboard is well equipped, even though I recently started running a basic island (you could cut either the 2nd Tropical or the Tar Pit) for the Delver-Decks which makes it much more unlikely for them to manascrew you, which is normaly one of their best ways to win. Just fetch for basics as much as you can even if you have to play slightly of curve or wait a turn. Same goes for stifle, just fetch when they make their play. Disfigure is a great card in this MU, I have 2 in my SB and never thought about cutting it. How are you sideboarding?

[Ephemeron]

Against grixis delver I board out the FoW's and the Thoughtseize and bring in Golgari Charm, P Deed, Sylvan Library, Disfigure, Night of Soul's Betrayal. On the draw I also usually board out a Hymn and bring in Spellbomb just so I can keep the graveyard under control from a quick gurmag angler.

For what it's worth, I've always thought BUG is the easiest delver to beat. They're basically playing all of our good cards but without any of the card advantage and less of the mana denial and reach cards like bolt that make Grixis/RUG tricky.

[btm10]

I leave all of my Forces in in the matchup so I can fight over their offensive counters (particularly Stifle) while cutting discard for removal. Looking at your manabase again I'd cut a Tar Pit for an additional Dual or fetch as that will give you more consistent access to your mana early in the game. I don't like Deed since it's symmetrical and we're playing to the board in Delver matchups. Another Disfigure would be great.

[Ephemeron]

Hrmm, I'll try leaving the Forces in for sideboarded games, since a couple people in my usual play group play grixis. Do you ever cut any of your planeswalkers in boarded games? They usually seem a bit slow, especially on the draw. Liliana is either really good or a complete joke depending on their draw.

[btm10]

I board Jace out first in that matchup since getting him Dazed, Pierced, or Blasted is usually a disaster, but always leave Liliana in. If you run out of slots to cut I start by adding Thoughtseize back in since you can use it early to make sure they don't have whatever your hand is weak to and aren't glutted at 2 mana. I probably find this matchup easier than most because I run 2 Dimir Charm and only 1 Thoughtseize main as ways to interact with combo, so I have 4 Decay, 2 Liliana, 2 Strix, 2 Charm, and a Toxic Deluge preboard...when I bring in Golgari Charm, Maelstrom Pulse, Night of Souls' Betrayal, and Disfigure.

[TheHeff]

Hey all, returning Shardless player after messing around with ANT for a few months, and I'm looking to update my list. I was running almost an exact 75 from Lejay a few months ago, and really enjoy the discardless main feel.

My main question is about manabase, more specifically how viable it is to run a basic forest if I swap in some Baleful Strix at the 2-drop spot. I need to grind out some games to test it but was wondering if anyone can lend some insight into the mana situation. Here's the list as it stands right now:

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Baleful Strix
4x Shardless Agent

4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Sylvan Library
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge

3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1x Scrubland
4x Meddling Mage
3x Thoughtseize
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Leyline of the Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Disfigure
1x Golgari Charm

All comments and critiques welcome, taking this to three tourneys over the next 2 months and expecting a little bit of everything.

[btm10]

I run Forest (over your 4th Wasteland) and Strix, and have no problems. Other than that, my list is yours -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Liliana, +2 Dimir Charm in the main (and +1 Misty, -1 Marsh Flats). Our boards are quite different since I'm not running Meddling Mage, though.

[TheHeff]

I really like the 4x wasteland plan, I'm very hesitant to cut it to three for a basic forest. I see the need to have one to Decay a Blood Moon, but I'd rather cut a Trop for it instead, doesn't hurt as much since we don't run Daze. Thoughts?

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

How do you guys feel about a Sylvan Library in the mainboard? Personally I love this card, and in my meta it's probably better than elsewhere because there's a ton of grindy matchups to have. I'm just unsure if I should cut it for a third Baleful Strix instead.

Also, opinions on 2 Jace over 1? It would be taking the same slot up as the Strix/Library I'm pretty sure, but I could be wrong.

I'm just trying to see the reasons to play which cards over what. Pretty new to the deck, I'm usually on BUG Delver or Food Chain.

I run 1 Sylvan Library and 2 Jace, and I personally love both of them, especially Library! Sets up your cascades (and Bob triggers if you're running them), lets you shuffle away useless stuff, it's like a little Top except it doesn't make judges mad. You have to time it right to make your opponent use up all their counters on your Deathrites & Lilianas and other threats, but the look on your opponent's face when it lands is great.

I made the room by cutting the Hymn to Tourachs from the maindeck. Hymn is too swingy between great in some matchups and terrible in others, and it's rarely a spell I would want to cascade into. I think it fits better with a Delver-style plan where you stick a Delver or Goyf and then counter & discard them down to an empty hand. In my experience, that's rarely how this deck plays.

[btm10]

I really like the 4x wasteland plan, I'm very hesitant to cut it to three for a basic forest. I see the need to have one to Decay a Blood Moon, but I'd rather cut a Trop for it instead, doesn't hurt as much since we don't run Daze. Thoughts?

I'm always scared to go down to just 4 blue sources, though I definitely see the appeal in 4 Wastelands. I think this is a personal preference thing.


I run 1 Sylvan Library and 2 Jace, and I personally love both of them, especially Library! Sets up your cascades (and Bob triggers if you're running them), lets you shuffle away useless stuff, it's like a little Top except it doesn't make judges mad. You have to time it right to make your opponent use up all their counters on your Deathrites & Lilianas and other threats, but the look on your opponent's face when it lands is great.

I made the room by cutting the Hymn to Tourachs from the maindeck. Hymn is too swingy between great in some matchups and terrible in others, and it's rarely a spell I would want to cascade into. I think it fits better with a Delver-style plan where you stick a Delver or Goyf and then counter & discard them down to an empty hand. In my experience, that's rarely how this deck plays.

100% With you on Library. The card is fantastic. I'm not a fan of Bob in this deck - he hurts our velocity and is often just a 1-for-1 by eating removal. That's fine, but I'd rather have stronger lategame cards and fewer low-impact hits off of Agent.

I'll make my obligatory plug for Dimir Charm main again. It counters most business spells out of combo (and people don't play around non-Force countermagic out of Shardless preboard, which has netted me more than one Show and Tell and a Past in Flames) and is removal in fair matchups, including being able to kill things like Inkmoth Nexus and Mishra's Factory that Decay can't touch. And I won't even start on relevant sorceries out of fair decks. It feels like cheating in the mirror.

[TheHeff]

I'll make my obligatory plug for Dimir Charm main again. It counters most business spells out of combo (and people don't play around non-Force countermagic out of Shardless preboard, which has netted me more than one Show and Tell and a Past in Flames) and is removal in fair matchups, including being able to kill things like Inkmoth Nexus and Mishra's Factory that Decay can't touch. And I won't even start on relevant sorceries out of fair decks. It feels like cheating in the mirror.

My only problem with Dimir Charm is it requires holding mana open, whereas Shardless tends to be a "tap out" control deck. The only time I leave mana open is for a DRS activation or if I'm trying to hard cast FoW.

Also, because I tend to blind cascade more often than I probably should, I don't like being forced to use the third mode if there are no creature targets. Or waste a cascade by not casting it. Just my two cents

[btm10]

My only problem with Dimir Charm is it requires holding mana open, whereas Shardless tends to be a "tap out" control deck. The only time I leave mana open is for a DRS activation or if I'm trying to hard cast FoW.

Also, because I tend to blind cascade more often than I probably should, I don't like being forced to use the third mode if there are no creature targets. Or waste a cascade by not casting it. Just my two cents

The thing that takes some practice with Charm is realizing that it's almost never something you want to hold up intentionally as a counter. 99% of the time it's removal, and you're fine tapping out for it on your turn to keep your velocity up. I'm essentially on the "wreck fair decks and lose to combo game 1" plan, but with two basically free ways to interact with combo that have additional value in fair matchups even if they can't kill things. I also think that setting Agent up is overrated. The game state dictates when you should just jam him and when you should be spending cards to set it up.

On a totally unrelated note, has anyone playtested against Aluren or Food Chain? The former seems completely unwinnable to me, while the latter seems to be basically doing what we're doing, but better.

[Ephemeron]

I've never played against Aluren but I've found the Food Chain matchup to be pretty awful. Misthollow Griffin is basically impossible to deal with in longer games. The games I've won have involved a pretty quick Goyf/DRS beatdown while keeping opposing DRS and Food Chain off the table. Obviously that's easier said than done since shardless isn't a deck set up to kill fast, and they can outgrind you pretty well. Just be thankful it's not a popular deck haha.

[Lejay]

I've never played against Aluren but I've found the Food Chain matchup to be pretty awful. Misthollow Griffin is basically impossible to deal with in longer games. The games I've won have involved a pretty quick Goyf/DRS beatdown while keeping opposing DRS and Food Chain off the table. Obviously that's easier said than done since shardless isn't a deck set up to kill fast, and they can outgrind you pretty well. Just be thankful it's not a popular deck haha.

Once you realize food chain is a misthollow Griffin deck and not a food chain deck, and play accordingly, it will go much better.

[JPTyson]

This is the list I'm currently running -

Creature: 14
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix

Instants: 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will

Sorceries: 6
2 Thought seize
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Hymn to Tourach

Planeswalkers:
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifact/Enchantment: 3
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Land: 22
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard: (still playing with the sideboard, these are the definites)
1 Baleful Strix
1 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Meddling Mage
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle

What do you think? Yes, I know I'm not playing wastelands. The deck doesn't want them or need them to be effective. Wasteland ultimately slows down this mana hungry deck. Jitte was added as it can be hit off shardless and can give that extra power or to stabilize stabilize. Top and Library were added as one ofs because they both can be hit off shardless and interact very well to make sure your shardless hits what you want. The basics allow you to abrupt decay around things like blood moon. Thanks in advance for the input. Hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, and Lili are the best way to combat combo. T1 thoughtseize, t2 hymn, and t3 lili pretty much wins, which is why I left one hymn in the main. I think wasteland in the deck does help but it isn't that useful against enough things.

[Einherjer]

Hey,

Just posting your list without any other information doesn't do a lot. It doesn't really incentivice people to reply, nor does it give points of further discussion. Why don't you try to give us a couple of explanations of why you play this deck the way you do? (You already mention Wasteland, but why don't you go in depth here - why doesn't Shardless need Wasteland? What about your 1ofs or the basic lands? What are you currently working on in your sideboard? What makes your list better than others? What are you having troubles with?)

Generally speaking, the more time you invest in your post the more likely other players are to respond. This in turn might cultivate a good climate of discussion, which is what we ultimately want. (especially in the DtB section)

So do yourself and others a favor and extend and upgrade your post.

Thank you.

Greetings

[wcm8]

Wasteland is too good to not play. Yes, the deck is mana hungry, but it also runs Deathrite Shaman to assist with casting spells. Additionally since the games tend to go long, you want Wasteland to help keep you ahead of your opponent's curve. Finally, there are mana problematic utility lands in Legacy that can be dealt with via Wasteland and *can't* be hit by your alternative removal spells (e.g. man-lands such as inkmoth nexus). Not running Wasteland is simply inferior, and it's a necessary component of this deck in the current metagame.

[btm10]

What do you think? Yes, I know I'm not playing wastelands. The deck doesn't want them or need them to be effective. Wasteland ultimately slows down this mana hungry deck. Jitte was added as it can be hit off shardless and can give that extra power or to stabilize stabilize. Top and Library were added as one ofs because they both can be hit off shardless and interact very well to make sure your shardless hits what you want. The basics allow you to abrupt decay around things like blood moon. Thanks in advance for the input. Hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, and Lili are the best way to combat combo. T1 thoughtseize, t2 hymn, and t3 lili pretty much wins, which is why I left one hymn in the main. I think wasteland in the deck does help but it isn't that useful against enough things.

Wasteland is absolutely essential in the current meta. You can't really beat Lands without it, and it does so much to help in other matchups. I don't like Top or MD Jitte at all. They're low impact hits off of Shardless Agent and neither does anything immediately other than consume mana, and in the case of Top you're already running Sylvan Library which is just better when you aren't running non-Force counterspells. The first Hymn just seems like it introduces variance and is worse than the fourth Force of Will.

[Ephemeron]

Does anyone have any thoughts on Scavenging Ooze as a sideboard card? A friend suggested it to me last night as he was bludgeoning me with his burn deck and I kinda liked the idea. Now I don't think a single Ooze in the board would really make too much of a difference in a match but it got me thinking on the value of the card overall to the deck.

Pros are it can be cascasded into and is a reasonable graveyard hate card that plays nice with Goyf while still being versatile. I can envision a lot of matches where an Ooze might be better than your worst card (it seems fine in grindier matchups and as a way to mess with opposing Snapcaster mages and Deathrite Shamans)

Cons are that it's kinda a jack of all trades, master of none. Also maybe a potential lack of green mana sources (I play with 2 Trop, 2 Bayou, 1 Forest as G producing lands).

I think I'm gonna at least give it a spin for a couple weeks in my playgroup but I was wondering what kind of experiences others have had with it.

[btm10]

I really don't like additional creatures as something that can be cascaded into. I'm also not aure what Ooze accomplishes against Burn, as it's very slow. If Burn is a problem in your meta, I'd say to just run Nourish or Feed the Clan in the board. They get your life total into a safe range much more quickly than Scavenging Ooze, have a smaller green mana requirement. I'm alao not sure how often it'd better in Deathrite standoffs than Disfigure or even Go for the Throat. If you want another beater then I think Tombstalker is the best option, and if you want another lifegain or value creature there's always Courser of Kruphix.

[minyafriend]

hi all, first post but ive followed this thread for a while now trying to learn as much about this deck as possible but still i have so many questions.
first off heres my list, its inspired by bahra with some tweaks of my own.

1 bayou
1 tropical island
4 underground sea
1 forest
1 swamp
4 wasteland
1 marsh flats
1 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs

4 ancestral vision
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
2 hymn to tourach
4 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 maelstrom pulse
4 force of will

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
1 baleful strix
4 shardless agents

1 sylvan library
2 liliana of the veil
1 jace the mind sculptor

sideboard
pithing needle
null rod
grafdigger's cage
disfigure
golgari charm (have been trying this recently in place of night of souls' betrayal and have been liking its modal qualities! and its not the worst to cascade into really since you dont have to cast it...)
duress
3 thoughtseize
scrubland
ethersworn canonist
3 meddling mage
my flex spot in sideboard has been: nihil spell bomb, vendilion clique, life from the loam
what do you guys think about those three cards? ive been happy with nihil spellbomb against rug delver, the mirror, dredge and storm but sometimes nonbos with null rod so have been playing around without it because null rod is obviously a lock in board.

so far ive tried versions without md discard and i loved it but recently have been trying the two hymns main to shore up game one combo win percentage and also i love hymn to tourach so why not play it yknow!? i was tired of fighting my love for the card, although i basically am removing my 3rd liliana and 2nd jace to do so.
also sylvan library is amazing obviously.

sideboard plans
miracles
+1 golgari charm, +1 pithing needle (usually on top or jace but can shut them down off of fetches if necessary), +1 null rod, +1 vendilion clique, +1 duress.
-2 liliana of the veil, -1 baleful strix, -1 ancestral vision, -1 force of will.
agressively try to keep them off top whether it mean force it or abrupt decay top in response to a fetch. although resource heavy sometimes you can force them to fetch in response to tops activated draw: if they have unpopped fetch and you have waste and abrupt decay up, abrupt top they will try to tuck top waste fetch in response either they lose their land or their top. neither is good for them if you maintain a resource advantage it seems to go in your favor. any more advice?

storm combo
+1 scrubland, +3 meddling mage, +1 ethersworn canonist, +1 duress, +3 thoughtseize, +1 null rod, +1 pithing needle, +1 grafdigger's cage
-4 abrupt decay, -4 tarmogoyf, -1 sylvan library, -2 liliana of the veil, -1 swamp
usually name infernal tutor with mm first then tendrils, but if ethersworn canonist is out you can name abrupt decay and sometimes ride it out, but its safer to just name tutor and their win con. pithing needle can name fetch or top i can go either way on this one. remember to eat tutors then rituals with deathrite.

death and taxes
+1 golgari charm, +1 disfigure, +1 pithing needle, +1 null rod, +3 thoughtseize
-4 force of will, -2 hymn to tourach, -1 baleful strix
pithing needle on vial, equipment, stoneforge, wasteland, or port are my usual targets. the first 3 being in an emergency since we have so many other answers to vial swords of x and stoneforge. even though needling a wasteland will stop yours, you have less targets than they do to waste.

grixis tempo
+1 golgari charm, +1 disfigure, +1 life from the loam
-2 hymn to tourach -1 force of will (if on the play will sometimes bring +3 thoughtseize and -2 force of will and -1 vision, not sure if this is correct though)
try to survive into late game, play around stifle and daze always play your uncounterable spells last. gurmag is bad but not unstoppable with pulse lili or jace.

elves
+1 golgari charm, +1 disfigure, +1 scrubland, +3 meddling mage, +1 ethersworn canonist, +1 pithing needle, +1 grafdigger's cage, +3 thoughtseize, +1 duress basically all your cards haha
-1 jace the mind sculptor, -2 liliana of the veil, - 4 ancestral vision, -1 swamp, -4 tarmogoyf, -1 sylvan library
mm names natural order then glimpse of nature then gsz unless you have more info. dont force early glimpses when it seems like they wont be able to go off with what they have but if it seems like they could possibly then yea force the glimpse but usually save fow for natural order. kill all creatures, especially wirewood, unless pithing needle has shut it off, dont get into deathrite battles with them they will untap you into oblivion and almost always win. also save wastes for cradle unless theres no way they can save their dryad. elves have so many shenanigans that you might not notice. pay attention to the board. quirion untaps things and saves "forests" very easily, wirewood saves elves, crop rotation nulls your wastes. watch out for choke after sideboard. its a difficult matchup but golgari and toxic deluge will win you the game, gl though getting through nettle sentinel with your shardless and meddling mages haha. dont forget charm can regenerate creatures to null their abrupt decays.

dredge
+1 grafdiggers cage, +1 pithing needle (on cephalid coliseum), +1 scrubland, +3 meddling mage, +1 ethersworn canonist, +1 null rod (if you see leds), +1 nihil (if ya got it) +3 thoughtseize, +1 duress
-2 liliana of the veil, -4 abrupt decay, -2 hymn to tourach, -1 sylvan library, -4 tarmogoyf
meddling mage names cabal therapy first, then dread return. watch out for the 2 mana imp that allows them to discard, also breakthrough is breakbroken in their deck, otherwise force dread returns. deathrite is your allstar, eat ichorid and narcomebas in response to their triggers to enter the battlefield. if nothing else eat the nephilim or the flayer of the hatebound.

burn
i hate this matchup and have never won a game.
+1 disfigure +1 scrubland, +3 meddling mage, +1 ethersworn canonist, +1 pithing needle (on lavamancer or barbarian ring), +1 duress, +3 thoughtseize +1 golgari charm
-1 jace the mindsculptor, -1 sylvan library, -4 tarmogoyf, -1 baleful strix, - 2 liliana of the veil, -1 wasteland, -2 ancestral vision
stay off non basics if possible or keep wastelands open to waste your own non basic in response to price of progress. mm names price of progress. remember to get value off of brainstorms by stacking land on top if theres a goblin guide out. protect your deathrites, they will win you the game.

lets talk other matchups some other time let me know if you have any other troublesome matchups!

recently ive been trying something new. if im searching for something important ill brainstorm with a fetch backup to shuffle away nonsense. but if im just sitting pretty ill fetch first then brainstorm to set up shardless. wether or not i have a shardless this has been working fairly well. by running 10 fetches i almost never get brainstorm locked. any feedback there?

what do you guys think about hymn to tourach? when does it stay in when does it come out?
what matchups is jace necessary in? miracles for sure but what else i feel like he comes out alot.
what about liliana i love her to death but i lose alot of games where i fire her ultimate off.
usually i try to establish board presence with deathrite, then goyf then shardless. then get planeswalkers out and then modify my hand or theirs and set up shardless. do you think its better if given the choice to fire off hymn turn 2 before playing goyf? you have the chance that goyf sticks then your grow goyf with hymn and attack for a million.

ok hopefully this is a nice place to start thanks for any feedback you have for me! :cool:

[Ephemeron]

I'll share my thoughts on some of your questions in no particular order:


I dig Nihil Spellbomb. In addition to being solid graveyard hate, the fact that it cantrips means it can never be that bad, and being an artifact that can just sit around until you find a good spot for it means it's a reasonable cascade. I've also been coming around to Clique - it's solid against combo and Stoneforge Mystic decks and isn't the worst against Delver just to see their hand and trade with a delver. Haven't tried Loam but in your deck with so many Wastelands I can see it being good as another way to grind people out while helping you from getting wasteland locked out of the game.

Burn is an awful matchup and unless you're willing to donate SB slots to incredibly narrow cards like Chill, I think the best thing is just to accept that you'll probably lose and hope to dodge it. If Burn is big in your meta then Chill could be fine, especially if there's also other mono red decks like Imperial Painter and Blood Moon/Chalice Stompy.

In general I find the D&T matchup to be super fun and extremely interactive. Definitely bring in Disfigure in that matchup, and I wouldn't cut Strix since they've got a good deal of flyers in Serra Avenger, Flickerwhisp, and Vryn Wingmare

Hymn is a great card overall and one of my favorites. It's obviously great against most combo (not Reanimator or Dredge tho). I've found it's not at it's best against Delver decks though, especially on the draw where it's just too slow.

It obviously depends on the matchup (are they a spell pierce deck and have a blue open?) but I'd probably rather play Hymn before Goyf, especially if Goyf is just gonna be puny when you play him. Turn 2 Hymn also gives you a better chance to mana screw your opponent if you happen to get their lands. Shardless isn't gonna win any games quickly so give your Hymn the chance to do the maximum amount of damage.

Pithing Needle is not good against Storm, I wouldn't even bother.

Liliana is great against Miracles, please don't sideboard her out. She's very hard for them to get off the board (especially post board when they usually cut FoW).

[LarsLeif]

Liliana isn't that good against Miracles actually. Usually a good miracles pilot will just let you throw away your hand (while they throw blanks they find with top) and then before the ultimate they will play a snapcaster/clique and attack her down to non-ultimate range, continue the game and slam something you will struggle to beat like Jace/entreat/mentor. If you think about it, Top is a very good card against Liliana and that makes keeping her in against a deck designed to abuse (and find) that card a poor strategy. Yes, sometimes she just runs away with the game but you don't have to go for that all-in approach. Just play conservatively and keep your counters for the few key spells that matter (don't force top).

[minyafriend]

So what spells matter other than entreat, jace, mentor and terminus? Do you mean like counter only the spells you can't get rid of otherwise like we can deal with top with decay, null rod, pithing needle but entreat and terminus must be countered? What about rest in peace how much do we care about this card is it a card worth fighting over? It seems pretty bad shutting off goyf and deathrite but should we just try to get it with decay/ golgari/ maelstrom? Thought seize seems pretty bad against miracles is that true? Clique, Duress, and hymn seem good though, does that make sense? I've heard of us described as the beatdown in this match up but it seems as if I do better if i just play as another controlish deck. Has anyone tried bringing meddling mage in naming terminus? I have and it ended up becoming a huge lightning rod, I couldn't tell if it was worth it... Pretty sure Liliana isn't good in this match up.

[LarsLeif]

So what spells matter other than entreat, jace, mentor and terminus? Do you mean like counter only the spells you can't get rid of otherwise like we can deal with top with decay, null rod, pithing needle but entreat and terminus must be countered? What about rest in peace how much do we care about this card is it a card worth fighting over? It seems pretty bad shutting off goyf and deathrite but should we just try to get it with decay/ golgari/ maelstrom? Thought seize seems pretty bad against miracles is that true? Clique, Duress, and hymn seem good though, does that make sense? I've heard of us described as the beatdown in this match up but it seems as if I do better if i just play as another controlish deck. Has anyone tried bringing meddling mage in naming terminus? I have and it ended up becoming a huge lightning rod, I couldn't tell if it was worth it... Pretty sure Liliana isn't good in this match up.

We are sort of the beat-down, but not in the traditional sense that we need to aggro them out our just lose after they stabilize. Usually the games go long and are extremely interactive but because we have more CA we can win longer games a lot of the time anyway. That means we don't have to force Top, play a fast Liliana and go for her ultimate, we can drag the game out and just grind them down.

What exactly you force depends very much on how the game is going and what's in play/in your hand. If you can't beat RiP, then yes, force it. But usually you can just decay RiP and move on with the game. If you can't beat a terminus (because you have overextended, which you should not) then yes, force terminus. But usually the only cards that you really want to force are Jace and Entreat, those cards are very tough to deal with otherwise, although Jace is sometimes possible to just beat down.

Thoughtseize is pretty poor game 1, but if they bring in a lot of reactive spells like REB/Pyroblast post-board (they will), discard becomes more potent as they will allow you to push trough visions/Jace more easily. Usually they also bring in Cliques and mentors, which also makes seize a better card than Liliana. Always evaluate sideboard-cards based on how the opponent will sideboard against you, the impact of certain cards can really change from pre- to postboard.

Meddling Mage is really poor, they have StP, Terminus, REB, Pyroblast and maybe EE/Verdict which makes it impossible to make the right decision in naming.

[minyafriend]

sideboard plans
miracles
+1 golgari charm, +1 pithing needle (usually on top or jace but can shut them down off of fetches if necessary), +1 null rod, +1 vendilion clique, +1 duress.
-2 liliana of the veil, -1 baleful strix, -1 ancestral vision, -1 force of will.
agressively try to keep them off top whether it mean force it or abrupt decay top in response to a fetch. although resource heavy sometimes you can force them to fetch in response to tops activated draw: if they have unpopped fetch and you have waste and abrupt decay up, abrupt top they will try to tuck top waste fetch in response either they lose their land or their top. neither is good for them if you maintain a resource advantage it seems to go in your favor. any more advice?


So a modified sb would be
+Golgari, null rod, pithing needle, duress, thoughtseize and clique
-2 Liliana, baleful strix, toxic deluge(good against mentor and the x/1s but doesn't seem as good as my other cards?) 1 ancestral and 1 force? Taking an ancestral out feels wrong I'm struggling here haha.

[TheHeff]

My list is below in my sig, I play the discardless MD as well. Essentially, your deck is already very well set up for the miracles matchup- resist the urge to over sideboard. I usually do:

-3 Liliana
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle

[LarsLeif]

My list is below in my sig, I play the discardless MD as well. Essentially, your deck is already very well set up for the miracles matchup- resist the urge to over sideboard. I usually do:

-3 Liliana
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle


I also cut both deluges and a DRS for needle/rod and 4 discard. If you want -1/-1 effects (vs legends-miracles etc) then NoSB is better I think.

EDIT: But of course, always adapt.

[Whitefaces]

Why do people bring in Golgari Charm? I'm not a fan of it in the 75 anyway as it's a reactive card, not something you want when playing Shardless Agent. It's not an answer to CB and the regen mode is almost irrelevant. I guess it kills Cliques/Snaps? As LarsLeif says, NosB does that better.

Spot on SBing advice from Mr Leif too, listen to him!

As he says, games will go long, FoW is very important for the late game to stop a Jace or Entreat. Good reasoning for why Liliana isn't as good as people think either, getting caught by an Entreat with your pants down is GG. A good approach for the matchup I find is basically 'connecting the dots'. Decay answers CB (if they leave them in)/RiP, needle/rod answers SDT, not overextending 'answers' Terminus (it's quite easy to play through all four in long games, just be patient). But these cards do require an answer though so don't burn Brainstorms early to curve out.

[btm10]

Why do people bring in Golgari Charm? I'm not a fan of it in the 75 anyway as it's a reactive card, not something you want when playing Shardless Agent. It's not an answer to CB and the regen mode is almost irrelevant. I guess it kills Cliques/Snaps? As LarsLeif says, NosB does that better.

Spot on SBing advice from Mr Leif too, listen to him!

As he says, games will go long, FoW is very important for the late game to stop a Jace or Entreat. Good reasoning for why Liliana isn't as good as people think either, getting caught by an Entreat with your pants down is GG. A good approach for the matchup I find is basically 'connecting the dots'. Decay answers CB (if they leave them in)/RiP, needle/rod answers SDT, not overextending 'answers' Terminus (it's quite easy to play through all four in long games, just be patient). Because these cards do require an answers though so don't burn Brainstorms early to curve out.

This is all good advice for the Miracles matchup. Exactly how good/bad Liliana is depends a lot on how you're both configured, with Liliana tending to get worse the more creatures they're running postboard because they all either have Flash (Clique, Snapcaster, Venser) or make extra bodies to sac (Mentor). With the Stoneforge version of Miracles basically dead Liliana usually doesn't pull her weight unless they're on the Reid Duke creatureless version. While her ultimate is great, the other two abilities are only ok, and ticking her up is usually so slow that it ultimately becomes not worth it - you have too many cards that are worth more than +1 loyalty in the matchup.

As for Golgari Charm, I don't think it's a reactive card at all and while it's no substitute for NoSB, it is useful as a bridge to NoSB in matchups where the gap between 2 and 4 mana can be yawning like Elves, D&T, and Infect. Even when it's just an untargeted Doom Blade in those matchups it often pulls its weight by taking out something like Mother of Runes or Inkmoth Nexus that can't be Abrupt Decayed. The fact that it has a Demystify mode is relevant against Show and Tell decks both because it destroys Sneak Attack and serves as a hedge against Leyline of Sanctity. I'm not a huge fan of it against Miracles unless you expect them to be heavy on enchantments like Rest in Peace and Blood Moon postboard (which invariably means that they're leaving Counterbalance in) but running a copy in the board isn't crazy.

[TheHeff]

Keep the sideboard advice coming! I've been away from the deck for awhile, so I'm still in the process of tweaking my deck/sideboarding strategy to current trends. In other news, two Shardless decks in the top 16 of Atlanta this past weekend:

12th - C. Mullins (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=98016)
16th - M. Mahaffer (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=97990)

Pretty standard stuff for the most part, although Mullins runs 4 Hymns MD along with 2 Thoughtseize, trimming some walkers, force, and a visions. I'm seeing this trend more and more- decks going down to a 2/1 Lili/Jace split and adding more discard main. I very much like the feel of the discardless main so I'll probably stick to that, but how do people feel about trimming down the walkers? 2 Jace has always felt good to me, it's a huge bomb if you can stick it in addition to a wincon. Lili I'm never unhappy to see, although it seems like it's losing a bit of its luster recently- maybe cutting it down to 2 would be okay for an additional Deluge, but that's probably pretty meta-dependent. It's still a house against combo and even delver, to an extent. Anyone have thoughts?

[btm10]

There are a lot of successful ways to play Shardless right now and I think most are represented in this thread, though I think you're moving in the direction of my list. The MD discard builds are clearly more popular in the US though I think you really don't lose that much against combo by cutting the discard, and tend to gain a lot against fair decks by having everything you draw play to the board in game 1.

This is the 75 I'm currently on:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ponder

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Disfigure
2 Leyline of the Void/Nihil Spellbomb - I go back and forth a lot on these
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Null Rod

The 2/2 Planeswalker split has treated me very well. Liliana isn't quite as good as she was when we could beat up on against Stoneforge Mystic decks frequently, but she still takes over games against Delver and in midrange mirrors while being a good top end against combo. I'm torn between the 23rd land and the second Strix - the mirror is popular enough here that I want the board-relevant 2-for-1, 22 feels a right on the land count. At the same time, I've considered cutting Strix entirely for the fourth Wasteland and either a second MD Deluge, a second Ponder, or another creature - Courser of Kruphix and TNN are a bit too slow for what they do, Clique is a bit too fragile, and I'd rather not run Angler or Tombstalker right now since having Goyf be big enough to eat Anglers is relevant. On the sideboard - I've alluded to being picky about what I can hit off of Cascades before, and that's the main factor behind the Leyline/Spellbomb uncertainty. If I could get a third graveyard hate slot I'd run 3 Leylines, but on 2 I increasingly want to have something that isn't middling when I topdeck it midgame and didn't have it in my opener. Leyline being bypassed by Agent is huge in a lot of matchups where you want both though, and likely wins out for that. Finally, I'm running Phyrexian Revoker in the slots where most people run Meddling Mage. I've tested Mage a bunch and keep coming back to finding it to be no better than Revoker in the grand scheme of things and Revoker doesn't make you run a white fetch in the main and spend a sideboard slot on a land. Mage is very slightly better against various forms of Storm combo since you aren't locked into naming LED, Petal, or Top but Revoker is much better against Sneak and Show because it forces them to go off either through Through the Breach or Show and Tell and both of those are easier to disrupt than Sneak Attack. I also bring Revoker in against Miracles, where it's consistently great. It's a creature, but unlike Meddling Mage it stops their whole engine rather than a single card that they haven't played yet. The one deck where I think Meddling Mage is much better than Revoker is Elves, but that has more to do with Revoker being easier for them to kill than Mage because they can GSZ for Reclamation Sage.

[MorphBerlin]

Hi Guys,

I found your sideboarding discussion against Miracles very interesting and would like to debate my SB-Plan, because I now think it could be better. This is the List I am currently running:

2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island

2 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Hymn to Tourach

SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Scrubland
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach

Currently my boarding Plan against Miracles is (Let's assume they run something like 2 Mentors and 2-3 Snap, because this seems to be the most common Build):

- 2 Strix - 1 Wasteland - 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Hymn +1 Thief +1 Sylvan +1 Needle

I don't think Wasteland does very much at any point and I'm not in fear of getting screwed. The Strix is free Cardwise, but doesn't put much pressure on the board. The thoughtseize is debateble but often I found that they could just hide their high impact cards with BS and the rest is very redundant, so it doen't do much then. Now taking out Liliana is interesting, I found her to be good midgame, If you empty your Hand and this way try to empty theirs. But it is true that Top and a late Topdeck of Jace/Entreat is really bad then...

Whats your opinon on sideboeading here? Are Meddling mages interesting? It seems hard what to name though, Terminus would be my first guess, because then they have to kill it first before they sweep, but with StP, Snap, Blats it seems that it will likely die quick after boarding.

[minyafriend]

Finally, I'm running Phyrexian Revoker in the slots where most people run Meddling Mage. I've tested Mage a bunch and keep coming back to finding it to be no better than Revoker in the grand scheme of things and Revoker doesn't make you run a white fetch in the main and spend a sideboard slot on a land. Mage is very slightly better against various forms of Storm combo since you aren't locked into naming LED, Petal, or Top but Revoker is much better against Sneak and Show because it forces them to go off either through Through the Breach or Show and Tell and both of those are easier to disrupt than Sneak Attack. I also bring Revoker in against Miracles, where it's consistently great. It's a creature, but unlike Meddling Mage it stops their whole engine rather than a single card that they haven't played yet. The one deck where I think Meddling Mage is much better than Revoker is Elves, but that has more to do with Revoker being easier for them to kill than Mage because they can GSZ for Reclamation Sage.

Doesn't revoker nonbo with night of souls betrayal and golgari charm pretty seriously?

[minyafriend]

Also taking out a wasteland seems like it makes your manabase even worse at 21 lands... Am I wrong?

[btm10]

Doesn't revoker nonbo with night of souls betrayal and golgari charm pretty seriously?

Elves is the only matchup where you definitely want both, and Night is all but game-ending there. You're fine with killing a Revoker to Wrath them and make most of their draws blanks. Night is ok against Miracles, but it's pretty narrow and Revoker turning off Top is more important than killing X/1s.


Also taking out a wasteland seems like it makes your manabase even worse at 21 lands... Am I wrong?

I'm considering cutting one Strix for the 4th Wasteland (which makes 23 Lands), not going to 2 Wastelands. 22 Lands have been fine though.

[LarsLeif]

Revoker is a fine card but I struggle to see how it's overall better than Mage. It is better in the miracle matchup yes, but it's not that exciting even there. Also, being worse against both Elves, lands and reanimator seems pretty rough. And finally it doesn't increase the blue-count like cutting Tarmos for mages does. I'm not convinced.

[MorphBerlin]

This is the 75 I'm currently on:

...

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Disfigure
2 Leyline of the Void/Nihil Spellbomb - I go back and forth a lot on these
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Null Rod

The 2/2 Planeswalker split has treated me very well. Liliana isn't quite as good as she was when we could beat up on against Stoneforge Mystic decks frequently, but she still takes over games against Delver and in midrange mirrors while being a good top end against combo. I'm torn between the 23rd land and the second Strix - the mirror is popular enough here that I want the board-relevant 2-for-1, 22 feels a right on the land count. At the same time, I've considered cutting Strix entirely for the fourth Wasteland and either a second MD Deluge, a second Ponder, or another creature - Courser of Kruphix and TNN are a bit too slow for what they do, Clique is a bit too fragile, and I'd rather not run Angler or Tombstalker right now since having Goyf be big enough to eat Anglers is relevant. On the sideboard - I've alluded to being picky about what I can hit off of Cascades before, and that's the main factor behind the Leyline/Spellbomb uncertainty. If I could get a third graveyard hate slot I'd run 3 Leylines, but on 2 I increasingly want to have something that isn't middling when I topdeck it midgame and didn't have it in my opener. Leyline being bypassed by Agent is huge in a lot of matchups where you want both though, and likely wins out for that. Finally, I'm running Phyrexian Revoker in the slots where most people run Meddling Mage. I've tested Mage a bunch and keep coming back to finding it to be no better than Revoker in the grand scheme of things and Revoker doesn't make you run a white fetch in the main and spend a sideboard slot on a land. Mage is very slightly better against various forms of Storm combo since you aren't locked into naming LED, Petal, or Top but Revoker is much better against Sneak and Show because it forces them to go off either through Through the Breach or Show and Tell and both of those are easier to disrupt than Sneak Attack. I also bring Revoker in against Miracles, where it's consistently great. It's a creature, but unlike Meddling Mage it stops their whole engine rather than a single card that they haven't played yet. The one deck where I think Meddling Mage is much better than Revoker is Elves, but that has more to do with Revoker being easier for them to kill than Mage because they can GSZ for Reclamation Sage.

I am courios why you feel the need for a MD Ponder. I like Sylvan sure but why Ponder, it is another bad flip from a blind shardless and it is not like BS where you can put back cards from your Hand to cascade into.
Plus your list seems like you are pretty much conceding G1 against Storm. I see exactly 4 FoW as interaction game 1 and no good storm player should be stopped by that. I think even though we bring in a lot of hate it is tought to win 2 games in a row especially the one where we are on the play.

[minyafriend]

Elves is the only matchup where you definitely want both, and Night is all but game-ending there. You're fine with killing a Revoker to Wrath them and make most of their draws blanks. Night is ok against Miracles, but it's pretty narrow and Revoker turning off Top is more important than killing X/1s.



I'm considering cutting one Strix for the 4th Wasteland (which makes 23 Lands), not going to 2 Wastelands. 22 Lands have been fine though.

Sorry dude I was referencing morphberlins list

[minyafriend]

Elves is the only matchup where you definitely want both, and Night is all but game-ending there. You're fine with killing a Revoker to Wrath them and make most of their draws blanks. Night is ok against Miracles, but it's pretty narrow and Revoker turning off Top is more important than killing X/1s.



I'm considering cutting one Strix for the 4th Wasteland (which makes 23 Lands), not going to 2 Wastelands. 22 Lands have been fine though.

I've been finding that night of souls betrayal has been very good against miracles. Mentor can just win the game very very quickly and it is one of their only win cons (and there's a couple in the deck) so negating that seems pretty important. A good miracle player is probably not going to play a mentor without a way to get some sort of value immediately from it so even if you're able to abrupt decay it theyll probably leave a prowessing 1/1 behind... This week I've been having better success against miracles thanks to yalls advice. Take it slow grind them down one creature at a time, prepare your agents make sure you're getting as many two for ones as possible. I've been playing it super safe around successfully sticking pithing needle/ null rod/ NoS'B and saving forces also for entreat and jace. The match up is alot better for me now thanks. One thing I'm worried about is in person the games can go so long what are some tactics to play faster so you don't get a draw? Online I'm usually faster but its a chess clock so it doesn't matter...

[btm10]

I am courios why you feel the need for a MD Ponder. I like Sylvan sure but why Ponder, it is another bad flip from a blind shardless and it is not like BS where you can put back cards from your Hand to cascade into.
Plus your list seems like you are pretty much conceding G1 against Storm. I see exactly 4 FoW as interaction game 1 and no good storm player should be stopped by that. I think even though we bring in a lot of hate it is tought to win 2 games in a row especially the one where we are on the play.

These are both cribbing the Accart/Polzl maindeck and the merits of going to 0 discard MD have been discussed at length in this thread. I don't think it moves the needle appreciably in either case, and was against cutting the discard until I tested it myself. You're absolutely conceding game 1 to most combo decks, but it's not like you had this fantastic game 1 plan unless you were packing a lot of discard, and that weakens you more against fair decks than it strengthens you against unfair ones. Conversely, going to more generically good cards game 1 means that your fair matchups - which make up the majority of matches you're going to play in most events - are stronger since your Cascades are going to generate value no matter what in most cases. The worst blind hit is Decay when your opponent has no legal targets for it, and if your opponent has no legal Decay targets and they're playing a fair deck, you're probably winning. Ponder is a card that Lejay has argued is needed in 22 land lists like his. I think it definitely helps those lists get mana screwed less often but that it isn't necessary, but what ultimately pushed me to include Ponder is that I wanted another Sorcery in the deck that could be cast early so I could be sure my Goyfs were always maximum size. It was almost Thoughtseize, but I cut Dimir Charm to free up the slot so I wanted to keep the blue count unchanged for Force of Will.


Revoker is a fine card but I struggle to see how it's overall better than Mage. It is better in the miracle matchup yes, but it's not that exciting even there. Also, being worse against both Elves, lands and reanimator seems pretty rough. And finally it doesn't increase the blue-count like cutting Tarmos for mages does. I'm not convinced.

Blue count isn't something I'm terribly concerned with - I have 21 blue spells preboard and 1-2 come out; if I were concerned about it I'd go for Clique rather than add Meddling Mage. Revoker works as a reasonable mana denial piece against Lands, but I'll admit to basically conceding that matchup. From my testing it's still a wretched matchup even with Meddling Mage (which is admittedly the best card against them), so going from 35/65 to 40/60 dogs doesn't convince me at all. As for Storm and Elves - GSZ for Rec. Sage is the only thing that makes Revoker worse than Meddling Mage in the matchup, and you're priced in to stopping most GSZs anyway assuming the first Mage is on Natural Order. The increasing number of people I see cutting to 2 Meddling Mage in the board suggests that at least some of them share my concern that dedicating a third of the sideboard just to combo, including running only 14 actual SB cards, is a real cost. And having MD cards that explicitly divulge your sideboard plan has small costs both to your manabase and in how your opponent will board against you. I haven't found Meddling Mage to be particularly effective against Reanimator, especially the lists that incorporate MD Izzet Charms on top of their SB Decays. They're already slowing down to fight DRS postboard, and while Revoker isn't particularly good, additional graveyard hate and Duresses or Cliques are better than Meddling Mage. Against Storm, Mage's abillty to name Tendrils rather than Petal or LED is, in my experience, not worth as much as simply having more cards to bring in against them. Revoker naming LED hurts both Past in Flames lines as well as natural Storm lines by reducing the effective number of tutors in their deck and their ability to float mana through their big spells and again, more is more in this matchup. In an amusing addendum, I recently beat a storm player who had simply assumed that I'd be on Meddling Mage and brought in Massacre to answer them, and then ended up with a 4 mana sorcery in his hand that didn't do anything. Ultimately though, I've convinced myself through testing that Revokers pull their weight over the Mages. Revoker is a little less powerful, but the full cost-benefit tradeoff for Revoker is more favorable than it is for Mage in my experience.


I've been finding that night of souls betrayal has been very good against miracles. Mentor can just win the game very very quickly and it is one of their only win cons (and there's a couple in the deck) so negating that seems pretty important. A good miracle player is probably not going to play a mentor without a way to get some sort of value immediately from it so even if you're able to abrupt decay it theyll probably leave a prowessing 1/1 behind... This week I've been having better success against miracles thanks to yalls advice. Take it slow grind them down one creature at a time, prepare your agents make sure you're getting as many two for ones as possible. I've been playing it super safe around successfully sticking pithing needle/ null rod/ NoS'B and saving forces also for entreat and jace. The match up is alot better for me now thanks. One thing I'm worried about is in person the games can go so long what are some tactics to play faster so you don't get a draw? Online I'm usually faster but its a chess clock so it doesn't matter...

NoSB is really good against them if they're on the most common configuration, which is 2/2/2 Mentor/Snap/Clique postboard and 0-1 Entreats. Maybe it's just me, but I haven't found that version to be extremely threatening. I'm usually fine slogging through Mentor + a few tokens so long as they don't have access to their Tops, though I usually swap Night in for Deluge against them. If this is alluding to the unfavorable interaction between Revoker and NoSB, that's true, but in comparing deck construction I'm essentially free rolling the Revokers in the matchup and am fine killing one to shut down their offense.

[minyafriend]

so talking to a miracles player today who was on mentor, venser, clique miracles was under the impression that liliana was really good against him because he didnt have many ways to deal with lili and thought that the ultimate was really backbreaking against them. he thought it was wrong to side her out. ive heard other pros say liliana is good against miracles but am starting to really wonder! i have been siding +null rod +pithing needle +night of souls betrayal and +duress -2 liliana -baleful strix -1 tarmogoyf does this make sense to everyone? would it make less sense to keep lili and say side, null needle NoSB duress and take out strix -3 goyf?

[janchu88]

hi,

how do you guys beat Sneak Show?

I mean seriously, I play 3 FoW and 6 Main Discard Spells (3Hymn, 3 Thoughtseize). Preboard as well as postboard it just feels utterly bad. Preboard no need to say its tough and Postboard the Discard does close to nothing, they either have leyline or Misdirection, which feels especially great when you try to hymn them. The Force of Will competes with their Forces, Spell Pierces, Pyroblasts.... more or less senseless. Any suggestions?

PS: I dont run meddling mage, but anyway meddling mage feels bad against them too because they have too many options how they can go off + pyroblast to get rid of it EoT.

[minyafriend]

hi,

how do you guys beat Sneak Show?

I mean seriously, I play 3 FoW and 6 Main Discard Spells (3Hymn, 3 Thoughtseize). Preboard as well as postboard it just feels utterly bad. Preboard no need to say its tough and Postboard the Discard does close to nothing, they either have leyline or Misdirection, which feels especially great when you try to hymn them. The Force of Will competes with their Forces, Spell Pierces, Pyroblasts.... more or less senseless. Any suggestions?

PS: I dont run meddling mage, but anyway meddling mage feels bad against them too because they have too many options how they can go off + pyroblast to get rid of it EoT.

What's in your sideboard?

[janchu88]

What's in your sideboard?

pretty much average stuff,

Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Nihil Spellbomb, Surgical Extraction, Grafdiggers Cage, NoSB, Disfigure, the 4th FoW and so on.... nothing that really shines in this matchup. Still tinkering with the SB - I bring in Pithing Needle, 4th FoW and Surgical - in Case my discard should ever hit. But still no way.

[surface33]

I was wondering what do you guys think of jace vryns prodigy in the maindeck. I have been considering cutting one ancestral vision and was thinking on him as a replacement.

[minyafriend]

hey yall heres my tournament report for the channel fireball 2.5k legacy tournament today in san jose.
good turn out of people with many familiar faces from gp sea tac, gp oakland and the bay area magic scene in general.
seven total rounds.
i was pretty excited to play in this tournament as i have been focusing on legacy and the shardless deck pretty intensely for the past 6 months. although i worked super late saturday night i was able to make it from the east bay to san jose with enough time in the morning to eat and write out my deck list unrushed.

round 1 - jund 1-2
lose game 1 to punishing fire, and my own over agressive attacks. at one point im able to wipe his board of 2 dark confidants a deathrite and a bloodbraid with toxic deluge on 2, leaving both him and i with a tarmogoyf he bloodbraids into liliana and she takes over from there.
game 2 side in disfigure, life from the loam, night of souls betrayal
side out 2 hymn 1 fow
start with mulligan, we have a sylvan library war until im able to find abrupt decay. liliana and jace take over
game 3 mulligan starting hand has no fetch but a swamp, underground sea deathrite brainstorm ancestral vision force of will i get wasted off underground brainstorm finds no land and by the time ancestral goes off im too far behind.
i think i was being too aggressive not thinking about bloodbraid elf... definitely couldve sat back and tried to grind out the games a little bit more. i still feel good about this matchup but definitely was not playing correctly.

round 2 - shardless bug mirror 0-2
start with mulligan, play error when i lose maelstrom pulse and liliana to a hymn when i couldve brainstormed and tucked away the goods. his shardless hits another hymn he resolves jace and i fateseals me into only lands :) a bitter taste of my own medicine!
game 2 side in pithing needle, disfigure, life from the loam
side out 2 hymn, 1 fow
start with mulligan, he hymns my pulse and an abrupt decay then he shardless into ancestral, as his suspended ancestral is about to go off i still feel like were trading pretty equally and i have board control with two 5/6 tarmogoyfs. he maelstrom pulses them and im forced to name creeping tar pit with pithing needle (which im ok with since i dont run tar pit) then he resolves jace and the game is o.
he drew an absurd amount more cards than me in game game 2 but if i had been paying attention game 1 wouldve been alot different

round 3 - goblins 0-2
game 1 i was able to control his lackey and instigator, im able to protect my board from being wiped from a pyrokenisis with fow but after a while his chieftan ringleader and matrons just accumulate quite the board presence and then he resolves kiki jiki and i fold.
game 2 side in null rod, pithing needle, disfigure, life from the loam, night of souls betrayal
side out 2 hymn, 2 fow, baleful strix
game 2 start with mulligan resolve turn 2 sylvan library and my following top 3s are fetch, land, shardless. shardless into brainstorm see land fetch land. next land land shardless. fetch away lands, shardless into null rod (worst cascade possible especially with no vial out). next is fetch land land. by now hes been able to kiki jiki his siege gang a few times get a krenko and a cheiftan out (icing on the cake) and i have done absolutely nothing.
pretty sure null rod was wrong to side in in this mu being too narrow just shutting off vial but i think i want to be able to name krenko, seige gang or kiki jiki with pithing needle and control port, cavern, waste with my own wastelands. what do yall think.

at this point i was pretty disappointed in my play and the outcome of the day and kind of on tilt so i dropped.
any suggestions on sideboarding are welcome. i usually side hymns out in fair matchups (bringing thoughtseize in instead in the stoneforge matchups) but i noticed other shardless players keeping them in. although its a two for one it doesnt seem as good as the rest of the deck and your sideboard cards can be.

[Ephemeron]

I was wondering what do you guys think of jace vryns prodigy in the maindeck. I have been considering cutting one ancestral vision and was thinking on him as a replacement.

I've been playing with 1 JVP maindeck for a couple months now to test him (and 3 Visions) and overall he's been... fine. Obviously as a 1-of, you're not gonna see him most of the time, and a lot of times when I've played him, he immediately eats removal. Which is fine, if you're bolting or StP'ing JVP, that's one less removal spell for Goyf or DRS, but people seem unnaturally afraid of him, and he dies on the spot a lot more often than DRS in my experience. Not even getting a single life from STP is a minor feels bad man moment.

Obviously, if you get him to flip (i.e., you get to untap with him), he's pretty awesome. I've had a couple games where being able to flash back a Maelstrom Pulse or Toxic Deluge was 100% the reason I ended up winning that game (a game against Miracles where I used Maelstrom Pulse to clean up an Entreat earlier, and later in the game a Monastery Mentor was getting out of hand, I was able to flash back Pulse to get the tokens and play a Liliana -2 to get the Mentor). He also won me a game against D&T where he was the only card in my deck that could hold off a Mirran Crusader for a turn so I could finish him with DRS. JVP, chump blocker extraordinaire.

There have also been a non-zero amount of times where the card was awful because I had a JTMS already in play, so that's something to watch out for.

Overall, it's a fun card and does a lot of things that Shardless wants to do, but I'd have to imagine JTMS is just the better card in most situations (I know, what a shocker).

[surface33]

I've been playing with 1 JVP maindeck for a couple months now to test him (and 3 Visions) and overall he's been... fine. Obviously as a 1-of, you're not gonna see him most of the time, and a lot of times when I've played him, he immediately eats removal. Which is fine, if you're bolting or StP'ing JVP, that's one less removal spell for Goyf or DRS, but people seem unnaturally afraid of him, and he dies on the spot a lot more often than DRS in my experience. Not even getting a single life from STP is a minor feels bad man moment.

Obviously, if you get him to flip (i.e., you get to untap with him), he's pretty awesome. I've had a couple games where being able to flash back a Maelstrom Pulse or Toxic Deluge was 100% the reason I ended up winning that game (a game against Miracles where I used Maelstrom Pulse to clean up an Entreat earlier, and later in the game a Monastery Mentor was getting out of hand, I was able to flash back Pulse to get the tokens and play a Liliana -2 to get the Mentor). He also won me a game against D&T where he was the only card in my deck that could hold off a Mirran Crusader for a turn so I could finish him with DRS. JVP, chump blocker extraordinaire.

There have also been a non-zero amount of times where the card was awful because I had a JTMS already in play, so that's something to watch out for.

Overall, it's a fun card and does a lot of things that Shardless wants to do, but I'd have to imagine JTMS is just the better card in most situations (I know, what a shocker).

Thanks for the info, its good that you have already playtested it. I currently run only one JTMS, and the fact that little jace can come in with cascade seems relevant. He is a two mana cost that comes in from vision, you wouldnt in general replace a copy of AV with JTMS so its not a fair comparison. What made me consider him is the amount of value you get for 2 mana, of course if you compare it with a 4 cmc planeswalker is going to lose but if you compare it with other 2-drops its not that clear.

[Ephemeron]

Thanks for the info, its good that you have already playtested it. I currently run only one JTMS, and the fact that little jace can come in with cascade seems relevant. He is a two mana cost that comes in from vision, you wouldnt in general replace a copy of AV with JTMS so its not a fair comparison. What made me consider him is the amount of value you get for 2 mana, of course if you compare it with a 4 cmc planeswalker is going to lose but if you compare it with other 2-drops its not that clear.

The two mana thing is fair, but it's not like Shardless is a deck lacking powerful two drops/cascade targets. I've had plenty of games where I could've played JVP on turn 2 but didn't because I had something "better" to do (abrupt decay something, use DRS to ramp into a 3 drop, etc). Of course, then, the longer you wait to cast JVP, the less the 2 CMC matters. Plus, Shardless is basically gonna grind the opponent every game, and in longer games, JTMS is absolutely a better topdeck than JVP, which matters a lot (obvious statement is obvious).

I *do* really like how JVP allows utilization of the graveyard in a way that Shardless typically doesn't have. It's certainly nice to be able to pick from all the powerful spells in your graveyard, even if you can only sorcery speed them. But silver bullets aside, most of the time you're gonna be flashing back abrupt decays and brainstorms from your yard with JVP (since discard tends to be awful late in the game) and JTMS will give you all the brainstorms you could ever want.

[fluuu]

The two mana thing is fair, but it's not like Shardless is a deck lacking powerful two drops/cascade targets. I've had plenty of games where I could've played JVP on turn 2 but didn't because I had something "better" to do (abrupt decay something, use DRS to ramp into a 3 drop, etc). Of course, then, the longer you wait to cast JVP, the less the 2 CMC matters. Plus, Shardless is basically gonna grind the opponent every game, and in longer games, JTMS is absolutely a better topdeck than JVP, which matters a lot (obvious statement is obvious).

I *do* really like how JVP allows utilization of the graveyard in a way that Shardless typically doesn't have. It's certainly nice to be able to pick from all the powerful spells in your graveyard, even if you can only sorcery speed them. But silver bullets aside, most of the time you're gonna be flashing back abrupt decays and brainstorms from your yard with JVP (since discard tends to be awful late in the game) and JTMS will give you all the brainstorms you could ever want.

Good point and good discusion.

[surface33]

The two mana thing is fair, but it's not like Shardless is a deck lacking powerful two drops/cascade targets. I've had plenty of games where I could've played JVP on turn 2 but didn't because I had something "better" to do (abrupt decay something, use DRS to ramp into a 3 drop, etc). Of course, then, the longer you wait to cast JVP, the less the 2 CMC matters. Plus, Shardless is basically gonna grind the opponent every game, and in longer games, JTMS is absolutely a better topdeck than JVP, which matters a lot (obvious statement is obvious).

I *do* really like how JVP allows utilization of the graveyard in a way that Shardless typically doesn't have. It's certainly nice to be able to pick from all the powerful spells in your graveyard, even if you can only sorcery speed them. But silver bullets aside, most of the time you're gonna be flashing back abrupt decays and brainstorms from your yard with JVP (since discard tends to be awful late in the game) and JTMS will give you all the brainstorms you could ever want.

Yes you are right, jace is a better card in those situations, but i usually win longer games. The MU i tend to have more problems are against aggressive decks like grixisor other delver variants or decks that play a lot of creatures, in this scenario little jace looks better as having your jtms dazed is too bad. Thanks for the info, I will try it and if I come to a conclusion I will post it here.

[LarsLeif]

Blue count isn't something I'm terribly concerned with - I have 21 blue spells preboard and 1-2 come out; if I were concerned about it I'd go for Clique rather than add Meddling Mage. Revoker works as a reasonable mana denial piece against Lands, but I'll admit to basically conceding that matchup. From my testing it's still a wretched matchup even with Meddling Mage (which is admittedly the best card against them), so going from 35/65 to 40/60 dogs doesn't convince me at all. As for Storm and Elves - GSZ for Rec. Sage is the only thing that makes Revoker worse than Meddling Mage in the matchup, and you're priced in to stopping most GSZs anyway assuming the first Mage is on Natural Order. The increasing number of people I see cutting to 2 Meddling Mage in the board suggests that at least some of them share my concern that dedicating a third of the sideboard just to combo, including running only 14 actual SB cards, is a real cost. And having MD cards that explicitly divulge your sideboard plan has small costs both to your manabase and in how your opponent will board against you. I haven't found Meddling Mage to be particularly effective against Reanimator, especially the lists that incorporate MD Izzet Charms on top of their SB Decays. They're already slowing down to fight DRS postboard, and while Revoker isn't particularly good, additional graveyard hate and Duresses or Cliques are better than Meddling Mage. Against Storm, Mage's abillty to name Tendrils rather than Petal or LED is, in my experience, not worth as much as simply having more cards to bring in against them. Revoker naming LED hurts both Past in Flames lines as well as natural Storm lines by reducing the effective number of tutors in their deck and their ability to float mana through their big spells and again, more is more in this matchup. In an amusing addendum, I recently beat a storm player who had simply assumed that I'd be on Meddling Mage and brought in Massacre to answer them, and then ended up with a 4 mana sorcery in his hand that didn't do anything. Ultimately though, I've convinced myself through testing that Revokers pull their weight over the Mages. Revoker is a little less powerful, but the full cost-benefit tradeoff for Revoker is more favorable than it is for Mage in my experience.

Sorry for my late reply. I'm not going to quote everything in segments, I'll just go from top to bottom and comment on things I don't agree with.

Blue-count is always good to increase, even if it is at an ok level already. I've won a lot of games with double force, pitching mage. Clique is a subpar option because we like to tap out main phase, and it can't be cascaded.

I would say that having an extra land and 4 meddling mage in the board certainly increases the matchup vs lands with more than 5%. I feel like it at least becomes 50/50, if not more. I also run 4 wastelands though.

Vs Elves, there a lot more than rec sage that makes MM better. The body is better, drawing multiples is better and stopping stuff like NO,GSZ and glimpse while also stopping Visionary/Symbiote-action while also providing lines like t1 Cage, t2 mage naming decay is very much more powerful than revoker can ever be.

In a format defined by wasteland and with Lands getting more popular, saying that running a Savannah in the sideboard is like running only 14 cards isn't a correct assessment. Being able to up the land-count in wasteland matchups is definitely not like giving up a sideboard slot.

Not all reanimator lists run MD Charms, and if they want to bring go up to 3-4 colors vs a wasteland deck to just trade 1-for-1 for your hate that's mostly nice for you.

Vs Storm, Mage can also name tutor and Ad Nauseam, which is very important. It also pitches on turn 0. You can also easily play around massacre with DRS/Cascade. Basically it does all that revoker does but also does more. And again, drawing multiple mages is so much better here.

There is a reason that you have to pay UW for Mage but only 2 generic for revoker. Meddling Mage is the more powerful card, and if you can run it without compromising your list (you can, and that's a huge draw to the discardless lists imo) then I think that you should.

[JPTyson]

For the sake of JVP, I think he is a better option than Lili in the main. I think 2 JVP in the main with 2 Lili, OTV for the combo matchup is the way to go.

[Whitefaces]

For the sake of JVP, I think he is a better option than Lili in the main. I think 2 JVP in the main with 2 Lili, OTV for the combo matchup is the way to go.

In what sense is he a better option than Lili? Apart from being PWers they both do quite different things. Please elaborate.

Lili is best vs other midrange matchups too, not combo. While being quite potent vs combo, she needs to be backed up by additional discard and another angle of disruption.

[hobart]

hey yall heres my tournament report for the channel fireball 2.5k legacy tournament today in san jose.
good turn out of people with many familiar faces from gp sea tac, gp oakland and the bay area magic scene in general.
seven total rounds.
i was pretty excited to play in this tournament as i have been focusing on legacy and the shardless deck pretty intensely for the past 6 months. although i worked super late saturday night i was able to make it from the east bay to san jose with enough time in the morning to eat and write out my deck list unrushed.

round 1 - jund 1-2
lose game 1 to punishing fire, and my own over agressive attacks. at one point im able to wipe his board of 2 dark confidants a deathrite and a bloodbraid with toxic deluge on 2, leaving both him and i with a tarmogoyf he bloodbraids into liliana and she takes over from there.
game 2 side in disfigure, life from the loam, night of souls betrayal
side out 2 hymn 1 fow
start with mulligan, we have a sylvan library war until im able to find abrupt decay. liliana and jace take over
game 3 mulligan starting hand has no fetch but a swamp, underground sea deathrite brainstorm ancestral vision force of will i get wasted off underground brainstorm finds no land and by the time ancestral goes off im too far behind.
i think i was being too aggressive not thinking about bloodbraid elf... definitely couldve sat back and tried to grind out the games a little bit more. i still feel good about this matchup but definitely was not playing correctly.

round 2 - shardless bug mirror 0-2
start with mulligan, play error when i lose maelstrom pulse and liliana to a hymn when i couldve brainstormed and tucked away the goods. his shardless hits another hymn he resolves jace and i fateseals me into only lands :) a bitter taste of my own medicine!
game 2 side in pithing needle, disfigure, life from the loam
side out 2 hymn, 1 fow
start with mulligan, he hymns my pulse and an abrupt decay then he shardless into ancestral, as his suspended ancestral is about to go off i still feel like were trading pretty equally and i have board control with two 5/6 tarmogoyfs. he maelstrom pulses them and im forced to name creeping tar pit with pithing needle (which im ok with since i dont run tar pit) then he resolves jace and the game is o.
he drew an absurd amount more cards than me in game game 2 but if i had been paying attention game 1 wouldve been alot different

round 3 - goblins 0-2
game 1 i was able to control his lackey and instigator, im able to protect my board from being wiped from a pyrokenisis with fow but after a while his chieftan ringleader and matrons just accumulate quite the board presence and then he resolves kiki jiki and i fold.
game 2 side in null rod, pithing needle, disfigure, life from the loam, night of souls betrayal
side out 2 hymn, 2 fow, baleful strix
game 2 start with mulligan resolve turn 2 sylvan library and my following top 3s are fetch, land, shardless. shardless into brainstorm see land fetch land. next land land shardless. fetch away lands, shardless into null rod (worst cascade possible especially with no vial out). next is fetch land land. by now hes been able to kiki jiki his siege gang a few times get a krenko and a cheiftan out (icing on the cake) and i have done absolutely nothing.
pretty sure null rod was wrong to side in in this mu being too narrow just shutting off vial but i think i want to be able to name krenko, seige gang or kiki jiki with pithing needle and control port, cavern, waste with my own wastelands. what do yall think.

at this point i was pretty disappointed in my play and the outcome of the day and kind of on tilt so i dropped.
any suggestions on sideboarding are welcome. i usually side hymns out in fair matchups (bringing thoughtseize in instead in the stoneforge matchups) but i noticed other shardless players keeping them in. although its a two for one it doesnt seem as good as the rest of the deck and your sideboard cards can be.

Thanks for the report.

I disagree with your sideboard choices. I don't even know what your maindeck and sideboard were, but I think I can still comment. I see you sideboarded out Hymns in all 3 matches. I've gotta say if you don't like hymn vs these grindy decks then why is it even in you deck?

Against:

Jund - FOW is terrible, they are trying to grind you and CA you, and they play Hymn. Board FOW out, leave hymn in, I like the Life from the Loam, but NOSB really? I can only think of one creature they even have that it kills, but I guess there it's possibly worth it.

Shardless - another grindy CA deck that plays Hymn (sometimes), FOW is shit, Hymn is GOOD. And pithing needle I just don't get. They are the mirror, any possible card you could name with Pithing needle also hits you. Doesn't seem worth it to me. There's other ways to deal with creatures and planeswalkers that don't kill your shit.

Goblins - Now this one is a bit trickier. Aggro deck for sure, but also likes to play long games with CA. FOW is shit yet again. You don't want to be trading 2 of your cards on a cheap ass goblin, you want to be killing multiple goblins with a single card. That's how you win this matchup. Also, they have vial, so unless you FoW the vial you won't have anything else to force for the rest of the game. Hymn, however, is actually really good against vial decks. Let them have their acceleration and punish their business. To answer your question, Null Rod is not worth bringing in. Pithing needle, as you mentioned, does have more applications and could possibly come in if there's nothing better to play.

Your other sideboard decisions seem fine, I really just wanted to convey some concepts about FoW and Hymn specifically to help you in the future.

[minyafriend]

Thanks for the report.

I disagree with your sideboard choices. I don't even know what your maindeck and sideboard were, but I think I can still comment. I see you sideboarded out Hymns in all 3 matches. I've gotta say if you don't like hymn vs these grindy decks then why is it even in you deck?

Against:

Jund - FOW is terrible, they are trying to grind you and CA you, and they play Hymn. Board FOW out, leave hymn in, I like the Life from the Loam, but NOSB really? I can only think of one creature they even have that it kills, but I guess there it's possibly worth it.

Shardless - another grindy CA deck that plays Hymn (sometimes), FOW is shit, Hymn is GOOD. And pithing needle I just don't get. They are the mirror, any possible card you could name with Pithing needle also hits you. Doesn't seem worth it to me. There's other ways to deal with creatures and planeswalkers that don't kill your shit.

Goblins - Now this one is a bit trickier. Aggro deck for sure, but also likes to play long games with CA. FOW is shit yet again. You don't want to be trading 2 of your cards on a cheap ass goblin, you want to be killing multiple goblins with a single card. That's how you win this matchup. Also, they have vial, so unless you FoW the vial you won't have anything else to force for the rest of the game. Hymn, however, is actually really good against vial decks. Let them have their acceleration and punish their business. To answer your question, Null Rod is not worth bringing in. Pithing needle, as you mentioned, does have more applications and could possibly come in if there's nothing better to play.

Your other sideboard decisions seem fine, I really just wanted to convey some concepts about FoW and Hymn specifically to help you in the future.

Against fair decks I understand that force usually comes out but sometimes (unless its against combo) I don't have much to take out. Like against jund I want to bring in loam and disfigure for sure but I took hymn out thinking I wanted more chances to hit cards that affected the board better than something say late game is horrible like hymn. other than that everything looks pretty good and i run sylvan in the main so maybe just take two fow out instead of the hymns

Against the mirror I bring in pithing needle because most people run tar pit and I don't. Or maybe it all goes to shit and i have to name the last jace... Maybe it's too narrow I'm open to the suggestion. Also I like some forces to try to force my visions through or stop their own visions.

I guess my problem is understanding which matchups when hymn really shines. I like the card alot thats why im playing it but maybe im missing when its best. Like I know I want my duress and thoughtseize when I want to be sure I get certain things and I think I lumped hymn into the same style of tool (not really to be used against fair decks) but maybe it's just more card advantage being a two for one..
Is it okay for me to run two hymn and meddling mage sb with this mana base? Maybe I should go back to the discardless main route.
Thanks for the discussion!
1 bayou
1 tropical island
4 underground sea
1 forest
1 swamp
4 wasteland
1 marsh flats
1 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs

4 ancestral vision
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
2 hymn to tourach
4 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 maelstrom pulse
4 force of will

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
1 baleful strix
4 shardless agent

1 sylvan library
2 liliana of the veil
1 jace the mind sculptor

sideboard
pithing needle
null rod
grafdigger's cage
disfigure
Night of souls' betrayal
duress
3 thoughtseize
scrubland
ethersworn canonist
3 meddling mage
life from the loam

[ironclad8690]

2 for 1's are amazing vs Jund. I bring in my 3rd Hymn from the sideboard actually. Force of will isn't that good, best case scenario it counters a non-Bloodbraid Elf creature and you are down 2 cards for 1 of theirs. Disfigure answers DRS & Bob, so disfigure is a more efficient answer. Notion Thief/Vendilion Clique is an added threat vs Liliana and a flash one at that, so flashing one in response to her +1 is great (often she is unprotected and just keeping your hand low). Jund is a quasi-mirror, so whoever draws better will usually win (same is true for Junk/Deadguy). Library should be amazing.

Hymn is good against most fair decks, but it is very defensible to trim them on the draw vs Stifle decks. They also shine against Storm (they need a critical mass of cards in hand, save for the times they just Past in flames randomly late in the game), Show and Tell, can be good vs Miracles but I could also see trimming them, one of the best cards vs Burn, great in the mirror etc.

[Demonic_Attorney]

2 for 1's are amazing vs Jund. I bring in my 3rd Hymn from the sideboard actually. Force of will isn't that good, best case scenario it counters a non-Bloodbraid Elf creature and you are down 2 cards for 1 of theirs. Disfigure answers DRS & Bob, so disfigure is a more efficient answer. Notion Thief/Vendilion Clique is an added threat vs Liliana and a flash one at that, so flashing one in response to her +1 is great (often she is unprotected and just keeping your hand low). Jund is a quasi-mirror, so whoever draws better will usually win (same is true for Junk/Deadguy). Library should be amazing.

Hymn is good against most fair decks, but it is very defensible to trim them on the draw vs Stifle decks. They also shine against Storm (they need a critical mass of cards in hand, save for the times they just Past in flames randomly late in the game), Show and Tell, can be good vs Miracles but I could also see trimming them, one of the best cards vs Burn, great in the mirror etc.

I would respectfully submit to you that Hymm is the best card in the deck against burn! One of the primary reaosns to play 4x instead of 3x. Just saying............

[btm10]

I would respectfully submit to you that Hymm is the best card in the deck against burn! One of the primary reaosns to play 4x instead of 3x. Just saying............

It's not as good as DRS. And if we're considering how good a card is against Burn then we have to discuss sideboarding Nourish or Feed the Clan. I for one prefer to just admit that fixing the Burn matchup comes at much higher costs than not fixing it does.



Hymn is good against most fair decks, but it is very defensible to trim them on the draw vs Stifle decks. They also shine against Storm (they need a critical mass of cards in hand, save for the times they just Past in flames randomly late in the game), Show and Tell, can be good vs Miracles but I could also see trimming them, one of the best cards vs Burn, great in the mirror etc.

I actually hate Hymn in the mirror and think it's pretty meh against Jund. While it's randomly good early or after a Vision/Painful Truths, it's dead any other time and those matchups are about playing to the board more than they are about holding cards in hand. I'd rather just have extra removal, creatures, Sylvan Library, or Planeswalkers


Sorry for my late reply. I'm not going to quote everything in segments, I'll just go from top to bottom and comment on things I don't agree with.

Blue-count is always good to increase, even if it is at an ok level already. I've won a lot of games with double force, pitching mage. Clique is a subpar option because we like to tap out main phase, and it can't be cascaded.

I would say that having an extra land and 4 meddling mage in the board certainly increases the matchup vs lands with more than 5%. I feel like it at least becomes 50/50, if not more. I also run 4 wastelands though.

Vs Elves, there a lot more than rec sage that makes MM better. The body is better, drawing multiples is better and stopping stuff like NO,GSZ and glimpse while also stopping Visionary/Symbiote-action while also providing lines like t1 Cage, t2 mage naming decay is very much more powerful than revoker can ever be.

In a format defined by wasteland and with Lands getting more popular, saying that running a Savannah in the sideboard is like running only 14 cards isn't a correct assessment. Being able to up the land-count in wasteland matchups is definitely not like giving up a sideboard slot.

Not all reanimator lists run MD Charms, and if they want to bring go up to 3-4 colors vs a wasteland deck to just trade 1-for-1 for your hate that's mostly nice for you.

Vs Storm, Mage can also name tutor and Ad Nauseam, which is very important. It also pitches on turn 0. You can also easily play around massacre with DRS/Cascade. Basically it does all that revoker does but also does more. And again, drawing multiple mages is so much better here.

There is a reason that you have to pay UW for Mage but only 2 generic for revoker. Meddling Mage is the more powerful card, and if you can run it without compromising your list (you can, and that's a huge draw to the discardless lists imo) then I think that you should.

I'm just going to answer this in broad strokes - I disagree with a lot of the specifics, but this discussion has been had to death. I don't think of this as a "Wasteland Deck" in the same sense as something like a Delver deck, and if I'm boarding a land in against D&T or Delver I absolutely want it to be better than (at best) a Wastelandable Swamp. Revoker is less powerful than Meddling Mage, but I don't think I'm giving back all that much in order to be able to just cast it off of any two lands and still have the ability to have BBUG off of those same lands. And while Clique encourages you to run additional reactive cards, I'm already on the record saying that Dimir Charm is a totally acceptable MD card and is very good against combo. Flusterstorm is also a card with at least some record of tournament success in Shardless.

[Demonic_Attorney]

It's not as good as DRS. And if we're considering how good a card is against Burn then we have to discuss sideboarding Nourish or Feed the Clan. I for one prefer to just admit that fixing the Burn matchup comes at much higher costs than not fixing it does.

With respect, you could not be anymore erroneous!

Indeed, Deathrite Shaman is never on the table against burn for more then a single turn before he is killed as every single burn spell in the burn player's deck kills him handily! Therefore, it is rather asinine to suggest that DRS is better than Hymm against burn. Two for one discard against burn is absolutely devastating for them to have to sustain and is often backbreaking.

In case you were unable to discern the basis of the underlying conversation on point, we were discussing viable maindeck options against burn, not sideboard tech like your suggestions of Nourish or Feed the Clan.

[LarsLeif]

I'm just going to answer this in broad strokes - I disagree with a lot of the specifics, but this discussion has been had to death. I don't think of this as a "Wasteland Deck" in the same sense as something like a Delver deck, and if I'm boarding a land in against D&T or Delver I absolutely want it to be better than (at best) a Wastelandable Swamp. Revoker is less powerful than Meddling Mage, but I don't think I'm giving back all that much in order to be able to just cast it off of any two lands and still have the ability to have BBUG off of those same lands. And while Clique encourages you to run additional reactive cards, I'm already on the record saying that Dimir Charm is a totally acceptable MD card and is very good against combo. Flusterstorm is also a card with at least some record of tournament success in Shardless.

The discussion keeps happening because people keep advocating for subpar alternatives :p

I see all decks that run 4 DRS + 4 Wastelands as wasteland decks.

Usually you only want to make you land-drops against delver/D&T/lands and thus even a wastelandable savannah (scrubland is worse) is valuable.

You can cast all your spells 1-2cmc spells with UG + Savannah, and all your 3cmc-spells with 2 UG sea + Savannah, and so forth, and you can still get to play meddling mage (unless you run strix/hymn).

Please don't argue for subpar card choices like Clique and Flusterstorm because we can play Dimir Charm. That card wasn't good in standard, isn't good in modern and is not good in legacy. How is it even "very good" against combo? It's a horrible cascade vs combo and it's basically an Envelop for 2 mana. It does have some versatility yes, but we're talking about a charm with basically only 2 modes (unless you want to argue for that the "mill"-part sometimes comes up against Sensei's Top). Just play Thoughtseize or Hymn or Strix instead, those cards are much more versatile (or just play the discardless version).

But yes, lets put the discussion to rest for a while, I don't think we can successfully convince each other anyway.

I'm taking a break from the deck a while now to test some other stuff, happy cascades people! :)

[ironclad8690]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief


So I have been playing some matches on Magic Online, and I have been keeping track of my results. 40 matches so far

Decks that I am <50% vs:

Aggro Loam
Maverick
Death and Taxes
Dragon Stompy
Reset High Tide
Sneak and Show
Zombardment
Grixis Delver

Decks that I am ~50% vs:

Reanimator
UWR Delver
Lands

Decks that I am >50% vs:

Eldrazi Stompy
4c Delver (Goyf/bolt splash)
4c Nic Fit
Affinity
All Spells
Bant
Belcher
BR Reanimator
Burn
Cheerios
Miracles
RUG Delver
Shardless BUG
UR Delver
Ad Nauseum Tendrils
Elves
Infect

I got off the Meddling Mage plan when it started to feel like my opponents were just playing "the other card". Name Show and Tell? They just play Sneak Attack. Name Exhume? They just Reanimate. etc. Perhaps this would be mitigated if I played all 4 Meddling Mages in the board, but I am really leaning towards the discard as I have been having better results with that.

Does anyone have any ideas about cards that might be more impactful vs the decks I am losing to? Seems to be trending towards spell-based combo and non blue fair decks.

[Ephemeron]

^^^

I had the same issue with Meddling Mage that you did and our 75 is kinda close. The problem is that the decks you're losing to are a wide variety of strategies, and there's obviously not one card that's gonna solve everything. Nihil spellbomb is fine as a one of, I've been playtesting a Surgical Extraction recently and I feel like it would be better than the second spellbomb. It's a lot better against Aggro Loam. If you can snipe a Loam or PFire or even something as simple as a Knight or Wasteland their deck becomes a lot more manageable. Another bigger sweeper, something like Toxic Deluge or Pernicious Deed might help you out against Grixis/D&T/Maverick as well. I think Deluge is probably the best after playing P Deed a lot, but if you expect a lot of D&T (I don't think that's really a thing on MTGO due to the prohibitive cost of Port) then Deed might be better.

Having said that, I feel like D&T is very close to a 50/50 matchup and you're usually gonna be a dog to Loam just cuz they can grind harder than you.

[btm10]

Decks that I am <50% vs:

Aggro Loam
Maverick
Grixis Delver

Decks that I am ~50% vs:

Reanimator
UWR Delver
Lands

Decks that I am >50% vs:

Elves

I got off the Meddling Mage plan when it started to feel like my opponents were just playing "the other card". Name Show and Tell? They just play Sneak Attack. Name Exhume? They just Reanimate. etc. Perhaps this would be mitigated if I played all 4 Meddling Mages in the board, but I am really leaning towards the discard as I have been having better results with that.

Does anyone have any ideas about cards that might be more impactful vs the decks I am losing to? Seems to be trending towards spell-based combo and non blue fair decks.

I'm surprised by the results that I left in your list. I've always experienced UWR Delver as almost a bye and haven't seen it at all since Treasure Cruise got banned. On the flip side, you're doing far better against Lands and Reanimator than I would've expected. Maverick and Aggro Loam are both even in my experience unless Loam gets the Wasteland lock going, so that matchup is mostly about aggressively using and protecting your Deathrites. My only advice against Grixis is to play more removal main. The ability of Pyromancer to get out of hand was a major factor pushing me toward playing Dimir Charm over Hymn in a very similar list right after Dig was banned. It's good against all the decks you're struggling against just because all of those decks are full of creatures or high-impact Sorceries, and the counter mode plays well with Clique against combo and Miracles. It's also one of the best cards in the mirror because instead of something high-variance like Hymn you either just have more 1-for-1 removal for their creatures (and Deathrite supremacy is huge) or you get to counter Vision without Force. Dismember and Go for the Throat are reasonable sideboard (or even 1-of MD) cards that give you added insurance against Angler. I'd never run Surgical in this deck. I don't know how many matches you've played against Loam, but I've been working basically the entire BGx spectrum quite hard lately and the matchup feels very even from both sides unless, like I said before, someone gets Wasteland/Loam going or the Loam player is running Stage/Depths. How are you more than 50/50 against Burn?

[halahel]

Can someone with experience in the Eldrazi Stompy match-up give some insight into how it plays out? I expect that Eternal Masters will lead new people into the format, many of whom will choose an accessible deck like Eldrazi. Any suggestions for taking it down? SB tech? Thanks!

[ironclad8690]

Can someone with experience in the Eldrazi Stompy match-up give some insight into how it plays out? I expect that Eternal Masters will lead new people into the format, many of whom will choose an accessible deck like Eldrazi. Any suggestions for taking it down? SB tech? Thanks!

I have played against it several times online, and it is actually a very close matchup. They can get some really scary draws involving Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Mimics. I have been able to beat them using these tools:

1) Maindeck Maelstrom Pulse/Toxic Deluge/Liliana of the Veil

This is how you beat their nut draws. Usually they shit out their hand as fast as possible, and usually they get completely blown out by Toxic Deluge. Maelstrom Pulse can often be a 2-for-1, but I usually just take out whatever fatty I can (but not Endless One, because Abrupt Decay puts a quick end to him). Liliana is great at 2 things, cleaning up whatever Abrupt Decay can't nab and going to the graveyard to let our Goyfs tango with their Reality Smahsers/Engbringers. Once goyf is a 5/6 this matchup gets so much less stressful.

2) Baleful Strix

Funny how otherwordly, semi-omnipotent beings can be fazed by a small metal bird. Usually this guy forces them to just not attack, and I am happy to trade with any of their fatties (even if it means taking 4 from a Reality Smasher). If the eldrazi deck picks up in popularity in legacy (which I don't think it will because of the "police" cards FOW Daze Wasteland Brainstorm) then Baleful Strix might be worth going up to 3-4 copies.

3) FOW

Yes, Force of Will. Even though you 2-for-1 yourself, it is often worth it because their cards outclass ours significantly. I have countered everything from Endbringer to even just a simple Trinisphere, you have to pick a plan and stick to completing your plan. Mine is often just resolving an Ancestral Visions without Trinisphere/Chalice harassment. We are the tempo deck in this matchup, and free spells/2-3 spells in one turn are the main reason we win.

Other than that, just play tight and be glad our deck has a natural resiliency to Stompy decks. Hymn to Tourach has been awesome for me, but I don't go up to all 3 of them post board. If the deck really stars giving you trouble, just upgrade to BUG Pod, Eldrazi can't beat that deck.

[halahel]

I have played against it several times online, and it is actually a very close matchup. They can get some really scary draws involving Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Mimics. I have been able to beat them using these tools:

1) Maindeck Maelstrom Pulse/Toxic Deluge/Liliana of the Veil

This is how you beat their nut draws. Usually they shit out their hand as fast as possible, and usually they get completely blown out by Toxic Deluge. Maelstrom Pulse can often be a 2-for-1, but I usually just take out whatever fatty I can (but not Endless One, because Abrupt Decay puts a quick end to him). Liliana is great at 2 things, cleaning up whatever Abrupt Decay can't nab and going to the graveyard to let our Goyfs tango with their Reality Smahsers/Engbringers. Once goyf is a 5/6 this matchup gets so much less stressful.

2) Baleful Strix

Funny how otherwordly, semi-omnipotent beings can be fazed by a small metal bird. Usually this guy forces them to just not attack, and I am happy to trade with any of their fatties (even if it means taking 4 from a Reality Smasher). If the eldrazi deck picks up in popularity in legacy (which I don't think it will because of the "police" cards FOW Daze Wasteland Brainstorm) then Baleful Strix might be worth going up to 3-4 copies.

3) FOW

Yes, Force of Will. Even though you 2-for-1 yourself, it is often worth it because their cards outclass ours significantly. I have countered everything from Endbringer to even just a simple Trinisphere, you have to pick a plan and stick to completing your plan. Mine is often just resolving an Ancestral Visions without Trinisphere/Chalice harassment. We are the tempo deck in this matchup, and free spells/2-3 spells in one turn are the main reason we win.

Other than that, just play tight and be glad our deck has a natural resiliency to Stompy decks. Hymn to Tourach has been awesome for me, but I don't go up to all 3 of them post board. If the deck really stars giving you trouble, just upgrade to BUG Pod, Eldrazi can't beat that deck.

This is all fantastic information and exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much.

[Ephemeron]

My playtesting against Eldrazi pretty much lines up with what ironclad8690 said. I'll add a few more observations:

1. Not surprisingly, Wasteland is great against their clunky manabase. I only play 2 and I've been perfectly happy with that but if Eldrazi because a reasonable share of the meta, I'd go up to 3. I won a game where my opponent cast a Reality Smasher with Eye of Ugin, Eldrazi Temple, and Wasteland in play. I FoW'ed the Reality Smasher, untapped and wasted his Temple, and he didn't cast a single card the rest of the game.

2. Abrupt Decay was great. Between Chalice, Mimic, and Endless One, you're almost always gonna have a great target for it.

3. Getting Goyf up to a 5/6 is huuuuuuge since they have a hard time removing creatures and it instantly bricks all their threats. It's also rather easy in this matchup to get an artifact in the graveyard so that's good news for us.

[ironclad8690]

Here is a video (http://www.twitch.tv/sunyveil/v/46712955?t=4h4m26s) of a match I won just yesterday vs Eldrazi (from the opponent's point of view). This matchup has pretty much played out similarly to this for me each time.

[ironclad8690]

So I have been playing A LOT of modo lately and I managed to 3-1 several daily events. Everything was going well until the league started, at which point I have only been able to 3-2 twice and 2-3 twice.

My losses have come from Lands, Grixis Delver, Miracles packing Stoneforge Mystics maindeck and sideboard, and 1 loss to sneak and show (good buddy JPA who wrote the sneak primer).

I have victories against pretty much every other deck out there, and i am just letting you guys know that Miracles players are gunning for us with those Stoneforges. 1 Null Rod postboard is no longer enough, the tech has to evolve to include some number of k grip or seal of primordium. Also there has been quite a bit of Lands online, so i am thinking of switching my 2 Nihil Spellbomb for 2 Extirpate (there is lots of ad naseam storm and reanimator on there too).

I have really liked 2 thoughtseize maindeck except for the geixis delver matchup.

I lose only to blood moon and stoneforge/batterskull when ot comes to miracles, and I am 80% win rate vs them otherwise. I would love to know if anyone has any tech to deal with the miracle blade phenomenon.

[btm10]

So I have been playing A LOT of modo lately and I managed to 3-1 several daily events. Everything was going well until the league started, at which point I have only been able to 3-2 twice and 2-3 twice.

My losses have come from Lands, Grixis Delver, Miracles packing Stoneforge Mystics maindeck and sideboard, and 1 loss to sneak and show (good buddy JPA who wrote the sneak primer).

I have victories against pretty much every other deck out there, and i am just letting you guys know that Miracles players are gunning for us with those Stoneforges. 1 Null Rod postboard is no longer enough, the tech has to evolve to include some number of k grip or seal of primordium. Also there has been quite a bit of Lands online, so i am thinking of switching my 2 Nihil Spellbomb for 2 Extirpate (there is lots of ad naseam storm and reanimator on there too).

I have really liked 2 thoughtseize maindeck except for the geixis delver matchup.

I lose only to blood moon and stoneforge/batterskull when ot comes to miracles, and I am 80% win rate vs them otherwise. I would love to know if anyone has any tech to deal with the miracle blade phenomenon.

If you're going to add Disenchant effects I think Grip is the way to go. It's better against Counterbalance (since SFM adds to their two-drop count, which gives them 10+ 2s postboard assuming 4 CB, 4 SFM, x Snapcaster, xRiP, 1-2 Wear/Tear) and doesn't advertise its presence too early. What would you be cutting to make room? I assume you're on the same list you posted recectly, but how have you been boarding in the matchup? I'd probably cut a Wasteland, a Goyf or a Strix, and Deluge for a third Thoughtseize, Null Rod, and Clique assuming they aren't running Mentor as well. I'm not in love with Hymn in the matchup, but it's good early so there's an argument for holding on to them. Otherwise I'd cut them for Duress or Golgari Charm and Grip.

On Graveyard hate - I really like Leyline of the Void against Storm and Lands. Obviously this means cutting Cage too, but I think it might be worth it. Extirpate seems strong against Reanimator and Lands but those effects have always been pretty meh against Storm variants im my experience.

[ironclad8690]

Updated list with K Grip:


Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

Cantrips/Draw:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision

Countermagic:
3 Force of Will

Discard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

Removal:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Planeswalkers:
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands:
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Goglari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Extirpate
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Force of Will


Still messing around with the configuration of fetches/duals/tar pit/wasteland. I have been leaning more towards fetchlands lately as most of the Miracles deck online go really hard for the blood moon plan g2/3 and it is super crucial to establish GB for the rest of the game. 2 Tar Pits was fine, but I had to cut something to try 3 Wastelands (because of an increase in the presence of Lands online, which also accounts for the Extirpates). Extirpate is kind of crappy in that you still have to use it like Surgical vs Punishing Fire but at least it nabs Loam/Lands 100% of the time, and that is good enough for me. So many people carelessly throw away Dark Depths to Lili +1 I am hoping this works out. Also an out to Maze of Ith in the right conditions/when you draw Wasteland.

I am trying to make room for a Life from the Loam but I am pretty attached to everything in the board. I do think that we need at least 1 more removal spell that can take out things bigger than X/2, Knight decks + Edlrazi can get board supremacy. Maybe -1 Goglari Charm +1 Toxic Deluge/Maelstorm Pulse/Dismember

[btm10]

Those are all reasonable calls. Have you tested this list at all? And on the removal spell question, I think Dismember or Murderous Cut if you want Cascades to go past the spell, and Go for the Throat is best if you want to be able to hit it off of Agent.

[ironclad8690]

Yes, this is the list I have been continually playing. After the SCG I got tired of being as much of a dog to combo so I took a closer approach to GerryT's original lists, but with more room for Strixes. Things definitely improved vs combo decks and didnt decline in the fair matchups. Just lose to stuff like Lands a lot, still can't quite figure that one out. The combo version is just too consistent.

[btm10]

Yes, this is the list I have been continually playing. After the SCG I got tired of being as much of a dog to combo so I took a closer approach to GerryT's original lists, but with more room for Strixes. Things definitely improved vs combo decks and didnt decline in the fair matchups. Just lose to stuff like Lands a lot, still can't quite figure that one out. The combo version is just too consistent.

Yeah, I think that Lands is just a structurally bad matchup. There's really very little we can do to make it better short of running our own Loams for Wasteland alongside narrow sideboard cards like Yixlid Jailer.

[ironclad8690]

Funny enough I just won my first match vs RG combo lands since I started playing the leagues. Game 1 I curved Goyf into Wasteland (which I held up because his turn 2 land was Thespian's) into Liliana, and he just never commited Dark Depths and couldn't find a Maze of Ith in time. He had a very slow start as well involving no Mox Diamond.

In: 2 Extirpate, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Force of Will, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Notion Thief (Tranquil Thicket, another threat to get past a Maze in a stalemate)
Out: 1 Abrupt Decay, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Maelstorm Pulse

Game 2 I had DRS t1 Liliana t2 vs his turn 1 Grove Manabond (doesn't use it) t2 Bojuka Bog (again doesn't use manabond), then he just scoops. It wasn't pretty, but I'll take what I can get vs that deck. I wonder if Lejay's 4 Wasteland version is that much better or if it still feels terrible.

[btm10]

It had to happen eventually, right? Good that you finally beat them, though.

I think 4 Wastelands will help the Lands matchup, but I'm less sure that the damage to the manabase is worth it in the grand scheme of things.

[Ricardio]

Wasteland the dark depths and surgical/extirpate it. Makes the game a walk over, especially when you snap/find 2nd surgical for fires.

Also why do you run extirpate over surgical? Not costing mana is better than SS in my experience. Specifically when you can t1 seize and extract or pass tapped out and catch them with their pants down.

[ironclad8690]

Wasteland the dark depths and surgical/extirpate it. Makes the game a walk over, especially when you snap/find 2nd surgical for fires.

Also why do you run extirpate over surgical? Not costing mana is better than SS in my experience. Specifically when you can t1 seize and extract or pass tapped out and catch them with their pants down.

I was also running into reanimator a fair bit

[Ricardio]

I was also running into reanimator a fair bit

If its dredge and reanimator, you want nihil spellbomb but for most other things, surgical or extirpate are good. I just find free is for me.

[btm10]

Split Second getting around Tranquil Thicket to save Loam makes Extirpate better enough against Lands that if Lands is his main concern it's the right call.

[ironclad8690]

Had a real bad run in today's league.

Bant: 0-2
BURG Guided Passage: 1-2
Elves: 1-2
Elves: 1-2
infect: 0-2

My draws were particularly bad, but in the case of Bant and Infect theirs were particuarly nutty. g2 bant is hellbent and sequences rest in peace into knight of the reliquary into sword of fire ice into more knights and true-name nemesis. Infect just goes become immense + berserk to lethal past a Strix block.

I streamed it twitch.tv/adelorenzi past broadcasts.

[MorphBerlin]

Had a real bad run in today's league.

Bant: 0-2
BURG Guided Passage: 1-2
Elves: 1-2
Elves: 1-2
infect: 0-2

My draws were particularly bad, but in the case of Bant and Infect theirs were particuarly nutty. g2 bant is hellbent and sequences rest in peace into knight of the reliquary into sword of fire ice into more knights and true-name nemesis. Infect just goes become immense + berserk to lethal past a Strix block.

I streamed it twitch.tv/adelorenzi past broadcasts.

I'm courious about your thinking on Decay on the Hierarch G1M1. You had no info about your opponents deck (right?) and Trop into Hierarch would put him on infect (at least for me). And in that MU I would not want to waste my Decay on Hierarchs. Basicly any creature deck has more valuable Targets in my opinion. You got punished by not being able to handle the Jitte

[ironclad8690]

Good catch. That is a bad habit left over from when I played jund, because you could just use your removal without much deliberation. I definitely should have thought about the possible outcomes, because no matter what hierarch is probably not decay worthy (whether it is Bant or infect).

I am curious though, if you hold decay and opponent's turn 2 land is inkmoth nexus, would you use the decay on the hierarch the following turn?

[ironclad8690]

Streamed a 4-0 this morning: http://www.twitch.tv/adelorenzi/v/49517936

Storm: 2-0
Eldrazi: 2-0
Eldrazi(Jim Davis): 2-1 (I accidentally f6 turn 2 first game and still win)
Goblins: 2-0

Much better than yesterday's 0-5 :laugh:

Got crushed round 1 by a Miracles player who had it all. That's the previous "Past Broadcast" before today's if anyone wants to watch.

Also, went 3-1 in my weekly local legacy tournament last night.

R1: 2-0 Some janky deck I have to assume had battle of wits in it somewhere.
R2: 2-0 Bant Stoneblade above average draws both games, g2 loam lock
R3: 1-2 Merfolk G3 kept a two lander with Brainstorm never found land 3 to cast my Maelstrom Pulse or Toxic Deluge. DRS got warping wailed. Had to abrupt decay a Lord and a Back to Basics, but succumbed to Master + Phantasmal copying Master.
R4: 2-0 Miracles Guy was undefeated but I had pretty insane draws both games (he Cliqued a Shardless Agent out of my hand, I draw Force of Will, he Entreats on his Draw Step for 3 Angels but Force pitching Brainstorm stopped it). If he had gotten away with the Entreat I would have lost because I topdecked only lands and a couple Deathrite Shamans after that, 1 of which sticks for infinite turns and drains him to 0.

[ironclad8690]

Awful league today (╥﹏╥)

Reanimator: 0-2
Grixis Delver: 0-2
Miracles: 2-0
4 Color Delver: 0-2
Miracles: 0-2

Both delver variants seemed particularly well poised against Shardless. 2nd one was 4 color with Goyfs and True-Name postboard, which I died to.

[ironclad8690]

Another poor league result:

Lands: 0-2
Zombardment: 2-1
Pack Rat Landstill Delver: 1-2 (g1 I did not play around daze because I saw basic swamp and got punished hard for it)
Miracles: 0-2 (Couldn't answer Entreat g1, couldn't answer Mentor #2 g2)
BUG Delver w/ Stifle: 1-2

MTGO metagame feeling increasingly hostile to Shardless BUG.

Here's my list, let me know if you see any glaring weaknesses:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
1 Force of Will
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

Added 23rd land for all the Stifle decks and added Night of Souls' Betrayal to sideboard in place of 1 G Charm

[btm10]

Another poor league result:

Lands: 0-2
Zombardment: 2-1
Pack Rat Landstill Delver: 1-2 (g1 I did not play around daze because I saw basic swamp and got punished hard for it)
Miracles: 0-2 (Couldn't answer Entreat g1, couldn't answer Mentor #2 g2)
BUG Delver w/ Stifle: 1-2

MTGO metagame feeling increasingly hostile to Shardless BUG.


Have the Delver decks been packing extra grinding tools (Planeswalkers, Painful Truths, etc.) to fight you, or have you just been gettimg Tempoed out? The only thing in your list that I think is worth changing is Notion Theif, which I think is horrible and better as nearly anything else.

[ironclad8690]

Have the Delver decks been packing extra grinding tools (Planeswalkers, Painful Truths, etc.) to fight you, or have you just been gettimg Tempoed out? The only thing in your list that I think is worth changing is Notion Theif, which I think is horrible and better as nearly anything else.

The standstill pack rat deck was playing Jace, but more often than not it feels like a Gurmag Angler/Young Pyromancer will get there before i can find one of the narrow answers to such cards. I punted away a game against BUG because I didn't realize Deluge was like burn where it counts it's own card type for state based effects, so i did throw away that match essentially.

Gurmag/Goyf based decks at least you have strix, but many Delvers are playing red for bolt and pyroblast, and Snapcaster mage has been doing work as well.

[Ephemeron]

4-1'ed my first league of the year.

W: 2-1 vs Eldrazi
W: 2-1 vs Shardless Mirror (should've been 2-0 but I thought it would be fun to misclick and kill myself with Sylvan Library)
W: 2-1 vs Eldrazi
L: 1-2 vs Lands
W: 2-1 vs Eldrazi


I've been loathe to go up to 3 wastelands but if all I'm gonna do is play against that stupid eldrazi deck then I think I have to. Good thing getting Goyf to a 5-6 is comically easy against that deck and then they can just never beat it. Other all-star votes go to robot owl and abrupt decay (nice 8/8 endless one).

ironclad, our lists are almost the same except maindeck I'm -1 Polluted Delta -1 Thoughtseize +1 FoW +1 Sylvan Library and sideboard I'm -1 Nihil Spellbomb -1 FoW -1 Disfigure +1 Surgical Extraction +1 Toxic Deluge +1 Arcane Laboratory

[btm10]

The standstill pack rat deck was playing Jace, but more often than not it feels like a Gurmag Angler/Young Pyromancer will get there before i can find one of the narrow answers to such cards. I punted away a game against BUG because I didn't realize Deluge was like burn where it counts it's own card type for state based effects, so i did throw away that match essentially.

Gurmag/Goyf based decks at least you have strix, but many Delvers are playing red for bolt and pyroblast, and Snapcaster mage has been doing work as well.

Short of shaving some of your MD discard for removal I'm not sure if there's a whole lot you can do. Grixis Delver is unfortunately about 50/50 in my experience, and while there are cards you can add to improve Delver matchups, but you hurt your matchups against combo somewhat to do that.

If you want to try it, I think -2 Hymn, +1-2 Dimir Charm, +0-1 Baleful Strix will improve the matchup. I can't guarantee success, and moving the second Deluge to the main is also arguably correct, but short of some really strange changes like MD'ing Golgari Charm or Go for the Throat there isn't much you can do to change the dynamics of that matchup in my experience.

[ironclad8690]

Finally got the elusive 5-0

Merfolk: 2-1
Eldrazi: 2-0
Eldrazi: 2-1
Miracles: 2-0
Elves: 2-0

Only streamed the last 4 though.

List was same list I played at the SCG Classic in Vegas. I went back to MM sideboard, but didn't bring em in ever. Most boarded cards remain Disfigure and Golgari Charm.

[minyafriend]

Finally got the elusive 5-0

Merfolk: 2-1
Eldrazi: 2-0
Eldrazi: 2-1
Miracles: 2-0
Elves: 2-0

Only streamed the last 4 though.

List was same list I played at the SCG Classic in Vegas. I went back to MM sideboard, but didn't bring em in ever. Most boarded cards remain Disfigure and Golgari Charm.

Curious why you wouldn't bring meddling mage in against elves.

[ironclad8690]

Postboard they cut some cards from both of the combo plans to try to grind instead, I find that even when you name natural order/glimpse/abrupt decay MM just doesn't do enough in the matchup. Very possible I could be wrong.

[ironclad8690]

Congratulations to Alain Martin for winning the Bazaar of Moxen with BUG Cascade!

Beat the mirror, eldrazi, and team america in the top 8 dodging two lands decks :laugh:

[razvan]

Am I horribly incompetent and cannot find the decklists or are they not up yet?

[CutthroatCasual]

Am I horribly incompetent and cannot find the decklists or are they not up yet?

Decklists not up, but Top 8 profile is.

[janchu88]

played at BoM Madrid as well with Shardless, finally went 5-3 and placed 33rd. My Matchups were as following

#1: Food Chain 2-1
#2: Death´n´Taxes 2-0 (Cant remember his name for sure, but he looks like the Top 8 guy in the image)
#3: Lands 0-2 (against Tom Kellocks who went Top 8)
#4: TES 0-2
#5: Eldrazi 2-0
#6: TES 2-1
#7: BUG Delver 1-2
#8: ANT 2-1

This was my list: http://deckstats.net/deck-9279481-e0cb32125b57dc81ba39f6f14465ee46.html

Not going to do a full report, but some comments:

Food Chain - Round 1 Game 2 against Food Chain: Arcane Laboratory ran away with the game, i found 2 Goyfs while i was far behind on hand cards cause i got hit by a misdirected Hymn and my Opponent had a Sylvan library + Food Chain in play - Anyway the Cardadvantage came down to nothing because the laboratory Shut down slamming his hand and denied his combo

Death´n´Taxes - Round 2 Game 1: My Opponent had a rather weird draw. I suspended Vision T1 on the play, he started with Mother of runes which got decayed. His T2 Followup was a Stoneforge Mystic which got forced pitching Strix, because i had no anwser either for Stoneforge or Batterskull. From this Point on he drew the full playset Mother of runes, 3 Thalias and some Swords to plowshares. My Goyfs decided to work in the fields, but DRS Activations pinged him to death. Game 2 was pure annihalation, T1 DRS into T2 Hymn To Tourach and Dread of Night against his mother of runes he played on T2 alongside his second vial - he never found a way back into the game.

Lands - Round 3: Yeah, Lands happening - do i have to say more? I honestly gave up upon the Matchup because even with a ton of hate it wont become good. I tried my best but it wasnt meant to be. At least it helped raising my Opp Score :laugh:

TES - Round 4: I lose the dice Roll and get Rekt Turn 2 without any Force. Game 2 I couldnt find Force as well, but stick to thoughtseize plus arcane laboratory. Brainstorm hides the relevant Cards, he goes off on Turn 2 again => Rekt

Eldrazi - Round 5: G1 was superclose, i managed to handle 3 Smashers and 1 Thoughtknot-Seer otd with Discard, Goyf and lili, he followed up with Dismember Goyf and Endbringer, but luckily i was able to find a maelstrom Pulse of the Top to take care of it. G2 He Opened up with City of Traitors and Chaliced for 1, which was annoying but anything but the end. Playing Strix, Decaying his Chalice and brainstorming into all the other Pieces he soon concedes.

TES - round 6: I win the Dice Roll, Thoghtseize, Force and finally a Jace Lock take G1. G2 I Hymn my Opponent, Force his BS and Surgical his Burning Wish. Looking at his library i am assured there is no tendrils main, only empty the warrens. I kept in Deluge, Pulse and added the engineered Plague as well. I started digging for an anwser for the Goblins while a Shardless Agent hits him. Just in time he manages to provide 12 Goblins and i never manage to find an anwser. Game 3 he went all in on Turn 1 but i have the Force of will and he can never recover.

BUG Delver - Round 7: Game 1 i went through a Delver of Secrets and the whole playset of Tarmogoyf, Mealstrom Pulse taking down 2 of them i stabilize at 3 Life and run away with the game. G2 he opens op with DRS into Turn 2 Hymn plus Wasteland and its over pretty quick. G3 i am able to decay his first Shaman, Engineered Plague naming Mage shuts down Delver and Dark confidant but sadly he drew just goyfs plus Liliana and i cant stabilize. Plague Looks narrow but it served me well against BUG delver in other tournaments and can anwser TNN if neccesary.

ANT - Round 8: He quickly wins Game 1 and Postboard i drown him in hate. Chill won me game 2 because he was on the past in flames plan, but he crippled on mana. G3 he opens up with Duress, duress, therapy and eats my whole hand away which consisted of Double Force, Agent, Lili, Strix, Hymn and one land. I forced the first Duress but it was just too much disruption. On the other hand he doesnt get anything going for several turns as well. Playing more or less of the Top i draw a Brainstorm, find 2 more lands a Surgical Extraction. I wait for possible Action on his Turn holding the Surgical, but he just passes. EoT i feel like i have to use the surgical on myself to break the BS lock and get rewarded by drawing shardless Agent, which cascades into Null Rod, shutting down half of his hand. From there on i put more and more lock pieces together and finally he concedes to Null Rod, Nihil Spellbomb and 3 hand cards inlcuding force of will plus Pitchcard while the Agent keeps hitting.

Yeah, and here i am not 100% happy with the result, but didnt feel like like losing due to major punts so im ok with it. Yeah, so far my 2 cents

[TheHeff]

@janchu88: Not a bad result, congrats!

Just finished up my first legacy league 4-1, wanted to give a quick write-up and get some sideboarding advice since you guys have lots of great opinions! Full list in my sig, but it's a fairly stock discardless MD list with Meddling Mage/discard SB plan.

Round 1: BUG Control (2-1)
Not 100% sure what this guy's list was, it was a standard BUG list with Shaman, Goyf, TS/Duress, but I never saw a Delver or Shardless Agent. No PW's either. It had Daze though, so I figure it was some tempo-ish list. Maybe just didn't find any delvers? Either way, it was exactly like you'd expect it to go. Disadvantaged early, but CA from Visions and Toxic Deluge pulled it out in the long game. Fetched out the two basics early to play around wastelands.
>>Sideboard: +2 Disfigure, +3 Thoughtseize, -4 Force, -1 Jace

Round 2: Mentor Miracles (0-2)
I'm usually pretty confident in this matchup, but this guy had some really nutty draws. Game one he found 4 Swords and a Snapcaster in his first 12 cards along with a T1 top. So much for running out one Goyf at a time. He eventually gets a Mentor on board and has the countermagic for the Maelstrom Pulse and the Deluge. Game 2 was a little closer, an early Null Rod shut down his top and he struggled to get any deck manipulation. Didn't matter...hit a Terminus the turn after I ran out a DRS and a Goyf (he had 2 cards in hand) and the Entreat the turn after with Force backup for 5 angels. Not reading too much into it, the deck is very well set up to handle Miracles and sometimes you just get a little unlucky with the draws.
>>Sideboard: +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, -3 Baleful Strix

Round 3: Grixis Delver (2-1)
Some good games here but I don't have a lot of notes on the games, a lot of people are saying this matchup is 50/50 but with the "fair" (discardless) MD setup it feels 55/45ish. Toxic Deluge and Maelstrom Pulse are houses here, just be sure to run out as many cards as you can as fast as you can- Cabal Therapy is a ridiculous card, especially in this deck. Just overload on removal and you'll be fine.
>>Sideboard: +2 Disfigure, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Leyline of the Void, -4 Force (I could also see cutting a Jace or two and leaving some number of Force in, but haven't test it enough. Any opinions here?)

Round 4: Reanimator Storm (2-1)
This deck is still, at it's core, a reanimator deck- the Storm package just allows it to win without combat steps. Lost G1 to a T2 Griselbrand -> draw 14 and tendrils for lethal. G2 I had the T1 Grafdigger's into Meddling Mage on Tendrils. The deck packs Firestorm for removal, so be careful about overextending multiple Mages into it. Null Rod may be a bit narrow, but it still shuts down Petals. Pulse and Deluge are also still fine for picking off a Griselbrand. G3 I had the T0 Leyline of the Void with 2 Mages on Firestorm -> Tendrils. Because this deck still operates around one big creature, Lili and Jace still seem fine for sac/bounce capabilities.
>>Sideboard: +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Leyline of the Void, +4 Meddling Mage, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Savannah, +3 Thoughtseize, -4 Tarmogoyf, -4 Abrupt Decay, -3 Ancestral Vision, -1 Forest

Round 5: Enchantress (2-1)
I haven't played too many games against this deck, but it doesn't seem impossible. Deluge still allows you to kill off their shrouded Enchantress and Maelstrom Pulse can lead to some big plays because of the number of 4-ofs in their lists. Won a fairly easy G1 due to his flooding out without a card draw source. G2 he got an early RiP out and slammed the Helm the next turn, which I was able to Force. He eventually got a big turn which ended up flooding the field with pillow fort enchants and then hardcast an Emrakul off a Serra Sanctum. G3 was closer, but he committed to an early Elephant Grass which ended up taxing him more than me, since I had the mana to pay for Agent beats and used DRS to ping him. I think the trick with this matchup is to shut down the card draw, waste the Sanctums, and avoid losing to the Helm/RiP combo. Meddling Mage was decent here, but they run a lot of O-Ring type enchants. They were good in a pinch, but I'm not 100% sure they're right. I ended up cutting Goyfs because I saw 3 RiPs G2. At worst, Mage is a 2/2 that ignores GYs, so it seemed ok.
>>Sideboard: +1 Golgari Charm, +4 Meddling Mage, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Savannah, +3 Thoughtseize, -3 Baleful Strix, -1 Forest, -4 Tarmogoyf, -2 Visions

Any comments/feedback/questions welcome! I plan on playing in the leagues fairly regularly, so I can keep doing these write-ups every week(ish) or so, if there's interest. Overall I like this setup a lot, I might trade one Strix for a Sylvan Library- it's too good not to play. Strix is a fine card, but 3 seems maybe 1 too many.

[zhandro]

I've been wanting to build Shardless Bug and am in the process of obtaining most of the pieces, but in terms of duals, I only have 4 Tropicals, 2 Bayous and 2 Underground Seas. Could I compromise and run 2 Undergrounds and raise the number of Tropicals, or is the third Underground Sea absolutely imperative?

I want to focus on getting Goyfs and stuff first before the 3rd Underground Sea, as then I can at least play with the deck before I get the third Underground. Is this wise?

[ironclad8690]

I've been wanting to build Shardless Bug and am in the process of obtaining most of the pieces, but in terms of duals, I only have 4 Tropicals, 2 Bayous and 2 Underground Seas. Could I compromise and run 2 Undergrounds and raise the number of Tropicals, or is the third Underground Sea absolutely imperative?

I want to focus on getting Goyfs and stuff first before the 3rd Underground Sea, as then I can at least play with the deck before I get the third Underground. Is this wise?

You can play a split like this:

2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
9-10 Fethclands
X Wasteland
X Creeping Tar Pit

And you should be fine. You might end up with some uncastable Hymns occasionally, but I wouldn't let that stop you from playing the deck. Also, if you have 1 Watery Grave that would probably be fine in the meantime.

In other news, I 5-0'd a league run this morning with this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scrubland
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Force of Will


BUG Delver: 2-0
In: 2 Disfigure, 1 Sylvan Library
Out: 3 Force of Will

Elves: 2-0
In: 2 Disfigure, 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Grafdigger's Cage
Out: 1 Liliana of the Veil, 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Tarmogoyf, 1 Baleful Strix

Tezzerator: 2-0
In: 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Sylvan Library
Out: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Force of Will

Eldrazi: 2-0 (G1 stabilized at 3, had to deluge for 2 down to 1, then Lili and Creeping Tar Pit get there, thank goodness he doesn't topdeck a Reality Smasher)
In: 2 Disfigure, 1 Sylvan Library
Out: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Force of Will

Eldrazi: 2-1 (Game 2 lost to Reality Smasher on last possible turn before I attack for lethal)
In: 2 Disfigure, 1 Sylvan Library
Out: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Force of Will

I am boarding out Thoughtseize a lot, but it is just because SB cards are specifically better, not that Thoughtseize is bad. I still love Thoughtseize game 1 against most decks.

[minyafriend]

You can play a split like this:

In other news, I 5-0'd a league run this morning with this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scrubland
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Force of Will


Elves: 2-0
In: 2 Disfigure, 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Grafdigger's Cage
Out: 1 Liliana of the Veil, 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Tarmogoyf, 1 Baleful Strix


it looks like your plans to defeat elves are more based on your removal suite, and to some success it seems, but im wondering why not treat it like a full combo match and go full forces and discard. just for the sake of discussion what do you think of this sideboard using your decklist.
in: 2 disfigure 2 golgari 1 nosb 1 grafdiggers 1 fow 1 scrubland 3 meddling mage (no, glimpse, gsz, abrupt)
out: 2 jace 3 ancestral 1 swamp 2 baleful strix 1 liliana 2 tarmogoyf

jace and ancestral seem too slow as is nosb but night is back breaking if were able to make it that far so i back it. baleful strix doesnt seem to do anything except get in the way of your cascades, especially lackluster if youre trying to stick a nosb. pithing needle doesnt affect the board in a way that advances our board position although i do think its helpful to shut off symbiote or ranger i guess i could go either way. liliana seems bad since if you want to minus her they probably have a ton of elves and plusing her doesnt seem better than just being able to thoughtseize or hymn, i might take her completely out and add the last thoughtseize. meddling mage interrupts their plan and gives you a body, seems pretty good. 4th fow against combo seems important.

if you disagree please tell me why!

[janchu88]

if you treat them like a combo deck, they grind you out with ease, thats the problem

depending on how much hate you have, boarding out some tarmogoyfs is ok, cause it is anything but good in the matchup. They have DRS they can activate multiple times per turn and many lists have Scavenging Ooze. And even if they dont, Tarmogoyf gets chump blocked to Oblivion. Testing Team America right now, i realized how important some Evasion is in this Matchup. If You play Jitte, definetely keep in Strix for example, except for Decay and Reclamation Sage, which are already having a hard time, they dont handle it very well

[ironclad8690]

Janchu is correct, my reasoning is that Elves usually boards out some of their combo (to try and blank the extra discard and forces). Force of Will is great when it hits Natural Order, but terrible when you have to use it on a Deathrite Shaman or pretty much any other creature besides Craterhoof Behemoth. Same goes for Discard, which Hymn can be fine if it hits two elves, but thoughtseize is mostly terrible. If they go on the "aggro" or "midrange" rout postboard you definitely just want to play to the board, and the easiest way to win is by playing a million removal spells. Eventually you will set up Grafdigger's/Goyf/Night of Souls' and then just go to town with your remaining creatures.

I leave Strix in to deal with Scavenging Ooze and sometimes Nettle Sentinel (if they are on the attack for 2 plan), which I have definitely lost to before postboard from Elves simply because I had boarded more answers for the combo side of their deck. Postboard you want to be able to handle Ooze, a million 1/1s, still have a little countermagic and discard for the combo just in case, and at least a few bombs that put them on the back foot (Night of Souls' Betrayal, Tarmogoyf, Grafdigger's Cage, Liliana is good once they have been swept because it usually keeps their hand and board low when we put them in topdeck mode). Jace however is too slow.

As far as Ancestral Vision, I just want to draw more removal if things have gone my way early.

I will also add that my sideboarding plan changes pretty frequently and I am almost never sure if what I am doing is "right", it is one of the most challenging aspects of the game.

[janchu88]

You cand try clique in your sb, its not Bad against elves either though its a nonbo with nosb

[tescrin]

#1 Does anyone here ever run Cabal Therapy instead of Hymn? I was thinking of toying with Shardless a bit and I feel like with all the garbage Shardless leaves behind getting a second cast on Therapy is sufficiently "free", while giving you more interaction with combo. It could be supported by Probes if necessary (though I don't know what you'd swap) and Therapy can generate CA on it's own anyway with double hits.

I feel like being able to double cast Therapy (in other decks) has really been good against combo, being lower to the ground and mana-light (not BB) can also make the mana a bit more managable.


#2 I'm also debating whether or not basic Forest or basic Island make more sense. I tend to play conservatively with basics in my 3-color decks by fetching a basic T1 (swamp for DRS, or here, I'd assume Island for prepping a Brainstorm or dropping a visions.) I fully understand the idea behind Forest; but I usually fetch to play safe around Wasteland and make my 2-3 drops, but Blood Moon is often something that you're either screwed against anyway or you have the answer in hand (force, untapped lands->float for decay, DRS + swamp-> decay.)



#3 I noticed a Top 8 recently with quad wasteland (22 lands) which I thought was interesting as I always see the deck having only about 2 wastes (which I see on this page as well.) Thoughts?

[janchu88]

Therapy out of the Board against combo might be ok, if you are confident at blind naming cards. There are some scenarios wehre it might be really good. But shardless doesnt really Support Probe cause it is literally one of the worst cascades possible

[Rwr]

Streamed a 4-0 this morning: http://www.twitch.tv/adelorenzi/v/49517936

Storm: 2-0
Eldrazi: 2-0
Eldrazi(Jim Davis): 2-1 (I accidentally f6 turn 2 first game and still win)
Goblins: 2-0

Much better than yesterday's 0-5 :laugh:

Got crushed round 1 by a Miracles player who had it all. That's the previous "Past Broadcast" before today's if anyone wants to watch.

Also, went 3-1 in my weekly local legacy tournament last night.

R1: 2-0 Some janky deck I have to assume had battle of wits in it somewhere.
R2: 2-0 Bant Stoneblade above average draws both games, g2 loam lock
R3: 1-2 Merfolk G3 kept a two lander with Brainstorm never found land 3 to cast my Maelstrom Pulse or Toxic Deluge. DRS got warping wailed. Had to abrupt decay a Lord and a Back to Basics, but succumbed to Master + Phantasmal copying Master.
R4: 2-0 Miracles Guy was undefeated but I had pretty insane draws both games (he Cliqued a Shardless Agent out of my hand, I draw Force of Will, he Entreats on his Draw Step for 3 Angels but Force pitching Brainstorm stopped it). If he had gotten away with the Entreat I would have lost because I topdecked only lands and a couple Deathrite Shamans after that, 1 of which sticks for infinite turns and drains him to 0.

What does your decklist look like?

[Ephemeron]

I don't think I'd bother with Cabal Therapy out of the board - I'd rather have the 4th Hymn in my and some Thougthseize before the first Therapy. It doesn't really fit into the infrastructure of our deck. Storm wants it because there's only a certain number of cards at a given time they actually care about. Grixis wants it because Pyromancer wants you to play with cantrips and "free" spells and the synergy between Pyromancer/Probe/Therapy is extremely strong. We don't really have that here. The only creature we play worth sacrificing on a flashback is Shardless Agent, but a 2/2 is a lot more potent than a 1/1 (thanks captain obvious). The guaranteed 2-for-1 of Hymn is so crippling against critical mass combo decks like Storm and Elves that I think it's better even if Cabal Therapy could theoretically have higher upside (discounting the small percentage of time your Hymn leaves your opponent mana screwed).

As for the basic land issue, I'd definitely play forest over island. The obvious answer is so you can guarantee you can cast Abrupt Decay/Golgari Charm under a blood moon but in generally the deck is a lot more black/green centric post-board. Miracles is probably the most common deck that plays blood moon, and they're not really gonna punish you for searching up basics early and not suspending that Visions on turn 1

[ironclad8690]

I have definitely wanted to get a basic island in here, but the opportunity cost of missing out on Hymn is just too great. Maybe in paper you could try stretching the manabase, but modo testing against most of the best decks leads me to believe that either 0 basics or forest swamp are correct. Forest swamp at least can cast goyf decay deathrite most of the time without sacrificing much flexibility in the midgame.

[MorphBerlin]

Cabal Therapy is a great card overall but not in this deck, as mentionied, we dion"t care about specific cards that much, have litte ways to get information [probe is just bad here], we allways want to tade 1+ for 1 so a miss is really bad and the Agent is there to beat down so sacraficing your clock seems bad too.

The Island is more interesting, I played it for a while because there where a lot of delver pilots at my LGS and I felt that one of the few ways to loose to them was getting hit by 2+ Wastelands. I was on the 2 Wasteland, 6 Dual, 10 Fetch, 3 Basics, 1 Tar Pit mana base than and I must say even though you have to sequence your first turns carfully it is absolutly doable. Hymn can be hard if you dont have DRS. But This manabase cannot support 3 Wastes in my opinion so you'd have to up the land count if you want to play more wastes (probalby good now with eldrazi). I switched back to 3 Wastes no islands because of that now. Plus i found that you only want the island for T1 Visions mostly and if your opp wastes you then it is not soo bad I gueee (they took one counter of the visions for you for free)

[ironclad8690]

Played in a league this morning and went 3-2 using Alain Martin's list. (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19740&iddeck=150305)

Shardless: 1-2

Bant: 2-0

Bant: 2-1

Imperial Painter: 0-2

Elves: 2-1

Elves was almost a 2-0. I had him at 12, only a 4/4 craterhoof behemoth in play and a known dryad arbor in hand, me with 3 4/5 tarmogoyfs and at 1. I had just deluged away his board, but he saved his arbor with a quirion ranger, and it was the only card in his hand. I attack, he blocks 1 to prevent lethal, and next turn plays arbor natural order into the remaining craterhoof for the win. It was impressive I must say.

[ironclad8690]

So tomorrow I am going to the Fire and Dice tournament for duals/reserved list cards, and I am considering the best options for my flex slots:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2-3 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3-4 Ancestral Vision
3-4 Force of Will
0-2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1-2 Toxic Deluge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard

Fair Cards:
1-2 Disfigure
0-1 Dismember
1-2 Golgari Charm
0-1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
0-1 Toxic Deluge
0-1 Engineered Plague
0-1 Dread of Night
0-1 Baleful Strix (depending on maindeck)
0-1 Notion Thief
0-1 Sylvan Library
0-1 Umezawa's Jitte
0-1 Life from the Loam

Unfair Cards:
0-1 Force of Will (depending on maindeck)
1-3 Thoughtseize (depending on maindeck)
0-1 Scrubland
0-3 Meddling Mage
1-2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
0-1 Vendilion Clique
0-2 Nihil Spellbomb (only if no Meddling Mage
0-2 Surgical Extraction (only if no Meddling Mage)
0-1 Chill


I am not sure if the metagame is combo heavy enough to necessitate the 2-2-3 as far as Thoughtseize, Hymn, and Force of Will or if it would just be better to go 2 Hymn 4 Force.

I am also not sure exactly how much Eldrazi to expect, so either 2-3 Baleful Strix, possibly 1 in the side.

I could really go either way on the Meddling Mage sideboard.

Judging by past events, metagame will look something like this (not sure if anyone will be on the Eldrazi hype-train):

Combo:
Elves x3
ANT x2
Reanimator
Hive Mind

Fair:
Death and Taxes x3
BUG Delver x2
Jund
Miracles
UR Delver
Deathblade

If this is the expected metagame, then I think my maindeck would forgo Thoughtseize, would probably contain either the extra Baleful Strix (hedge against BUG Delver/Jund) or possibly 1 extra Toxic Deluge (hedge against Elves, Death and Taxes, UR Delver, and Deathblade) in the flex (with 2 Baleful, 4 Ancestral, 4 Force config) and my sideboard would probably look something like this:

2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
1 Scrubland
3 Meddling Mage

What do you guys think?

EDIT: According to my friend, the meta will be Eldrazi and people trying to beat Eldrazi, with Lands and Delver sprinkled in. If this is the case, I am thinking about registering this:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3-4 Wasteland (<------Full Greed)
0-1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
1 Scrubland
3 Meddling Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Force of Will


Even stock lists rarely lose to Eldrazi (I have played 13 matches against the deck and lost 0), but this list doesn't seem like it could possibly lose to Eldrazi at all. 3 Baleful Strix, 2 Deluge and a Library in the maindeck flex slots guarantee you will be trading up, sweeping the board more often (goodbye Mimics + Endless Ones), and drawing more gas.

This comes at a cost, the combo matchups (besides Elves) get pretty bad g1 (if they could be worse than the 4 Force 2 Hymn config), but Meddling Mage comes in to hopefully provide some alternate hate vs combo and should be decent enough vs Lands. The Night of Souls' Betrayal (which really compliments the 2 Deluge MD) is a nod to the Elves/Death and Taxes/True-Name players. Main weaknesses appear to be Reanimator strategies (with no dedicated yard hate besides Grafdigger's), Dredge, and Blood Moon strategies (but when aren't they) ;)

[TheHeff]

I happen to be very partial to the discardless main lists (full list in sig) with the Meddling Mage sideboard plan, but it really comes down to playstyle. Here's how I have my flex spots:

2x Baleful Strix
4x Force
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Sylvan Library
4x Wasteland
0x Creeping Tar Pit


With the following sideboard:

2x Disfigure
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Leyline of the Void
4x Meddling Mage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Savannah
3x Thoughtseize

[Patrunkenphat7]

Not sure if this goes here, but the deck is indeed BUG Shardless Control. Check out what my friend and I have been playing online:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/384010#online

Overall I love the deck, and I don't feel like it's any worse than regular Shardless. It feels better in the mirror and against Miracles and a little worse against combo.

[janchu88]

ok, but the point is, the miracles matchup is okay and combo matchups are the tough ones anyway. So which is the point in amplifying the strengths and weaknesses further?

[Patrunkenphat7]

ok, but the point is, the miracles matchup is okay and combo are matchups are the tough ones anyway. So which is the point in amplifying the strengths and weaknesses further?

I don't know, it's just fun to attack with manlands.

But in reality my answer would be that the 4 Medling Mage package with 2 V Clique main help the combo matchup a lot in SB games, and it is significant that this deck is better against most fair decks in the format. I've found it's also better against Elves thanks to our friend, Dr. Jitte. This list is definitely worse against combo than the Shardless lists I usually play with 3 Tseize, 2 Hymn, and 1 Dimir Charm main, but I don't think it's worse than a lot of the planeswalker/maindeck Deluge-heavy lists I see floating around.

The manlands are SICK, gentlemen.

[janchu88]

ok point taken. Though i think the regular Shardless builds still might be better overall, i suggest adding Pernicious Deed + some planeswalker if you go the Landstill Route - the synergy is brutal

[ironclad8690]

That list is really cool Patrunkenphat7, I will definitely try it out! A very different take but I am in need of something different for modo (way too many 1-4s with this deck).

I ended up getting 2nd at that tournament for duals I was talking about, I will post a tournament report later and let you guys know.

[btm10]

That list looks really sweet, I'll take it for a spin. I've actually been playing around with Standstill in a BUG Delver shell with some decent playtesting results since SCG Philly. Fair decks really struggle with Delver into Standstill, and both DRS and Goyf have naturally favorable interactions with Standstill. I've been saying that (traditional) Shardless is the best Goyf deck in the format (because of its large number of artifacts and Planeswalkers) for several months now, but your list seems even better in that regard.

[weaselface]

I guess the problem is you really don't want to hit Standstill off Agent while behind on board.

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[Patrunkenphat7]

I guess the problem is you really don't want to hit Standstill off Agent while behind on board.

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I absolutely agree that cascading into Visions is stronger than cascading into Standstill, but the real draw for me to try the Standstills was the fact that it's a better naturally-played card the vast majority of the time. It requires more deckbuilding synergies and also requires you to pay closer attention to some of your sequencing, but once you get used to playing the deck you will find that you almost always want to cascade into the Standstill.

Also just a heads up to everyone that I am still working on my SB, and this list isn't tuned to completion yet. I do feel great about the maindeck though. Keep me posted about what you guys think after testing; I want to continue to improve the deck and would love feedback.

[ironclad8690]

I may be going to deep, but I kind of want to work in some ideas I have had about Shardless but never really had the space, for example Academy Ruins/Life from the Loam/Crucible of Worlds. Naturally great synergy with the manlands. I might also try to work in a basic island and forest due to the amount of blood moon I experience online.

[ironclad8690]

Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30470-2nd-at-Fire-and-Dice-Tournament-for-Staples-with-Shardless-BUG) is my report y'all!

[btm10]

I absolutely agree that cascading into Visions is stronger than cascading into Standstill, but the real draw for me to try the Standstills was the fact that it's a better naturally-played card the vast majority of the time. It requires more deckbuilding synergies and also requires you to pay closer attention to some of your sequencing, but once you get used to playing the deck you will find that you almost always want to cascade into the Standstill.

Also just a heads up to everyone that I am still working on my SB, and this list isn't tuned to completion yet. I do feel great about the maindeck though. Keep me posted about what you guys think after testing; I want to continue to improve the deck and would love feedback.

Some (very) preliminary thoughts (based on 11 games against Grixis Delver 5/6 pre/post board and my recent experience with Standstill in Delver):

1. Scrubland main is definitely the way to support the Meddling Mages, but with 2 EtB tapped lands and 5 colorless lands the mana can be rough. Being as close to mono blue as possible definitely helps, but Mutavault seems suboptimal even then. It obviously interacts well with Standstill, but with 6 creature lands already and way more creatures than traditional Landstill, I'm going to try cutting Mutavault for a Wasteland.

2. Relatedly, not having Wasteland just seems worse than having Wasteland. I realize that those would go in the Factory/Mutavault slots, but there are a lot of matchups where answering utility lands like Port, Maze of Ith, and Karakas is more important than having access to a creature land.

3. Vendillion Clique is awesome, as is the full set of Strixes.

4. Jitte is a very polarized card, but I've never been in love with it in this deck because of how it ties up your mana andhow fragile most of your Jitte-carriers are. The extra creatures and creature lands help, but I'd rather have something else in those slots.

5. Cutting Vision deals a real blow to the number of available turn 1 plays, and lowering the curve by cutting the Planeswalkers doesn't solve that problem. Thoughtseize (or Inquisition) into Standstill is a great opening, especially off of a Factory. Similarly, DRS into Thoughtseize+Standstill is brutal. I know that this isn't how you always want (or get) to play Standstill, but passing 60+% of your turn 1s is a high cost, even if you use turn 1 to play a tapped Tar Pit.. I'd at least explore some amount of Thoughtseizes or Inquisitions..

6. I assume that the Murderous Cuts in the board are mainly for Eldrazi or Gurmag Angler. This deck is so good at growing Tarmogoyf that I don't think that either is a major problem, especially since Strix also beats those as well. I really missed Liliana of the Veil, so I'll be trying her in those slots. Dismember and Golgari Charm are also appealing as removal.


Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30470-2nd-at-Fire-and-Dice-Tournament-for-Staples-with-Shardless-BUG) is my report y'all!

Congrats! Against Grixis Delver I don't have a ton of advice. Strix is great, as are sweepers, so maybe you want more of those. Deed is quite good there, even if it's ordinarily a nonbo.

[Patrunkenphat7]

^ Sweet thanks for the feedback! Let us know how it goes with your changes.

@ironclad - great report!

[wweenieking]

@ironclad

I've been having success vs Grixis, with 1 loss in the last roughly 10 times I've played it in tournaments. One reason is I have a 3rd Disfigure. The card is great in many matchups (D&T, Elves, any Delver deck, Mirror, Infect, the list goes on..). Vs Grixis in particular, I see you have a G Charm instead of the 3rd Disfigure, but it can be way too slow, esp on the draw. It doesn't kill a flipped Delver or Deathrite either. You want to kill Pyromancer and Deathrite as soon as they are played, which Disfigure allows you to do, while also being able to make other plays.

Another reason is I play 23 land and board in the Scrubland vs them (I do this alot vs mana denial decks like D&T). Every card we play is so much more powerful, so we just want to be able to cast them, so having 24 lands post board helps that.

A 3rd reason is I board out Force. I used to keep it in, or board out just 1, but I realized I don't like Force. Once again, our deck is so powerful vs them that we have no cards we want to pitch to Force besides another Force. I'd rather be drawing any creature in our deck or removal instead of Forces. Feels like a brick to me vs them.

I also don't like the Hymns because it's tough on the mana base and is once again, a bad draw just like Force and also Visions if you can't set it up and are behind on board.

There are so many cards that do nothing if you are behind on the board, so post board I try to eliminate that as much as possible because they can't deal with the rest of our deck.

The last reason is I'm not afraid to mulligan. If I know I'm playing vs Grixis I will try my best to keep a mana heavy hand. We mulligan very well and can rebuild the cards back up quickly and easily. As long as we can cast our spells it's hard to lose.

Hope this helps!

[MorphBerlin]

Against Grixis in the Finals:

My boarding plan would be:

OTD:
+2 Disfigure
+1 G.Charm
+1 Pithing Needle (Naming Wasteland)
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Scrubland
-2 Hymn
-1 Jace
-1 Wasteland
-1 AV
-1 FOW

Not sure about the last 2, could also see cutting Lili or Pulse since they are really slow. NOSB is just to clunky. If I get to 4/5 Mana the game should be won anyway. Also I could see leaving the Wasteland in to up the land count.

OTP:
+2 Disfigure
+1 G.Charm
+1 Pithing Needle (Naming Wasteland)
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Scrubland
-1 Jace
-1 Wasteland
-4 FOW

Again maybe Wasteland in, out another spell

[insnebob1889]

So how does everyone feel about thing in the ice? Better than goyf?

[Quasim0ff]

So how does everyone feel about on thin ice? Better than goyf?

No.

[Ephemeron]

So how does everyone feel about thing in the ice? Better than goyf?

God no. Shardless is the best Goyf deck in Legacy. At best this could be played alongside Goyf in some small number. Shardless doesn't spam instants and sorceries like other blue decks can so it's not gonna flip as fast as delver could do it. TITI is also a godawful topdeck whereas Goyf is typically a godly one.

[Di]

So how does everyone feel about thing in the ice? Better than goyf?

Better than Tarmogoyf, not by a mile. But by no means does that mean it doesn't have a place in the deck. Considering the synergy with Baleful Strix and Shardless Agent, Thing in the Ice could be a fantastic addition.

However, the current designs of Shardless BUG really don't mesh well with abusing the power of the card. As is, there aren't enough cheap spells to chain, so you get bottle-necked into casting them at a slower rate compared to decks utilizing more cantrips. That, and the higher creature-to-spell ratio also doesn't help it much. So it will likely spawn a separate version of the deck, whether with Therapy/Probe and Ponder or some other combination of that while sacrificing something else. Question is if Thing in the Ice ends up as a strong enough card to warrant such a drastic shift.

[surface33]

what do you guys think of meddling mage in the sideboard? is it that good that makes it worth using a sideboard slot with a scrubland? I always feel combo MU to be too close and I cant play them comfortably but do 3 meddling mages give a better result than 3 vendilions? Also, I am considering running one hissing quagmire instead of the second creeping, I think it helps against eldrazi, fixes mana in a better way and can help in the mirror. Recently im not finding the creeping utility enough to justify two copies.

[TheHeff]

what do you guys think of meddling mage in the sideboard? is it that good that makes it worth using a sideboard slot with a scrubland? I always feel combo MU to be too close and I cant play them comfortably but do 3 meddling mages give a better result than 3 vendilions? Also, I am considering running one hissing quagmire instead of the second creeping, I think it helps against eldrazi, fixes mana in a better way and can help in the mirror. Recently im not finding the creeping utility enough to justify two copies.

I'm personally very happy with 4 Mages sideboard with a Savannah (I use a Lejay-style list with no hymns). The mages are great against combo decks and lands, our worst matchups. Not to mention they're super versatile since they can prevent casting any card. The extra land I actually bring in against delver/DnT decks that try to attack your mana.

I don't run any cliques in my list and while it is a great card, shardless is very much a tap-out style control deck. If we're holding up mana, it's a huge signal for our opponent- very dissimilar from a reactionary deck.

I can't comment too much on the hissing quagmire, I run no tar pits and 4 wastelands. The etb tapped on the tar pits is the big breaker for me. It's also a liability against decks running bolt/swords/disfigure and can turn into almost a time walk since it "uses" 4 mana to attack. Wasteland, even though it doesn't tap for color, gives the deck another plan of attack and could lead to some easy game wins. Its also very good against eldrazi stompy- thats how they get all of their acceleration. It's all personal choice, of course- jam some games and see how it feels for you!

[Ephemeron]

Have any of you guys running 3-4 Wasteland ever played Life from the Loam in your sideboard? Seems like it would be able to give you another angle of attack in grindy matchups and big mana decks where you can do the aggro loam wasteland you out of the game thing, while giving you a bit of protection from delver decks completely blowing you out. Dunno if it's any good or not but just wanted to hear some thoughts.

[ironclad8690]

Have any of you guys running 3-4 Wasteland ever played Life from the Loam in your sideboard? Seems like it would be able to give you another angle of attack in grindy matchups and big mana decks where you can do the aggro loam wasteland you out of the game thing, while giving you a bit of protection from delver decks completely blowing you out. Dunno if it's any good or not but just wanted to hear some thoughts.

I actually tried this just this morning, with 2 Surgical Extractions in the sideboard as well (had to cut the Mages for this). I ended up going 4-1 in the league (thanks to 2 pairings against BUG Delver), also beating Infect and Dredge but losing a close game to Elves.

I tried boarding out all Goyfs vs elves a la Gerry Thompson, but he had a double glimpse turn and a single glimpse turn and even though every time I passed back to him he had absolutely no creatures he still managed to get enough of them in 1 turn to make a lethal Crater. I must have gone through 3/4 of my deck and removal spell after removal spell, but never got the Night of Souls' Betrayal.

The surgicals were of course amazing vs Dredge, but I am really wanting to see how the Loam + Surgical plan affects the Lands matchup.

As far as Thing in the Ice, I have to imagine maybe people play 1 in the slot that is sometimes occupied by the 13th creature (baby Jace, 3rd Baleful, Tasigur etc). It will be great in some deck, that's for sure, but I don't know if Shardless will be the one.

I will try cutting the top-heavy cards in the Grixis matchup, I have been leaving Jace in because he can bounce Angler but I don't think it is enough.

Something else funny, my local store has been having 15 proxy vintage night and I have been playing Shardless with a couple lands taken out for proxied moxen and the brainstorms 2-4 replaced with Timewalk/Ancestral Recall and a single Trygon Predator instead of Baleful Strix 3. I have gotten 2nd the past couple of times (the Merfolk guy always gets 1st), beating mostly Oath/Storm/Mentor and a couple close calls against shops. The "true" vintage players get so pissed losing to a legacy deck XD

[minyafriend]

Have any of you guys running 3-4 Wasteland ever played Life from the Loam in your sideboard? Seems like it would be able to give you another angle of attack in grindy matchups and big mana decks where you can do the aggro loam wasteland you out of the game thing, while giving you a bit of protection from delver decks completely blowing you out. Dunno if it's any good or not but just wanted to hear some thoughts.

i play with loam in the sideboard. would only reccommend it if youre running 4 wasteland. its great against the other wasteland decks and has won lands matchups for me... its good against eldrazi if you survive long enough to lock them... problems: most of the time i feel like im already winning if i have enough time to waste lock them out. if im topdecking and i draw loam its terrible. im really trying to make my sideboard nuts and bolts strong tools right now, no nonbos and no cute tricks.
im currently playing discardless version with md sylvan and 3 lili/2 jace and a ponder... ive actually been thinking about dropping the ponder for a second strix....

sideboard is:
1 scrub
4 meddling
3 thoughtseize
1 duress
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 grafdiggers cage
1 disfigure
1 night of souls
1 life from the loam

i want to fit in more pointed removal like a second disfigure.... today ill try the second disfigure instead of loam and the second strix.

[Ephemeron]

Tried Loam in my playgroup tonight. Only played one matchup where I really wanted to board it in (BUG Delver) but it straight up won me a game I might not have won otherwise. Still, I'm kinda with you minyafriend that it might be more of a cute trick than legit staple. Although if it actually gives me a fighting chance against lands (I don't play mages) then it might be worth testing further.

I'd definitely try and find room for the 2nd Strix. It's been one of my favorite cards recently (Delver and Eldrazi is everywhere). When Strix is good, it's so good, and replacing itself and pitching to FoW helps minimize the downside.

[ironclad8690]

Went 4-1 again in today's league.

Burning Reanimator: 0-2 (I misplayed, in short I thought he was tin fins because I saw Children of Korlis, so I kept up a DRS for instant speed reanimation g2 but he only had sorcery speed. THis allowed him enough time to get a pyroclasm and reanimate a Grave Titan which created tokens that killed me after GT traded with a Strix. Live and learn I guess)
Tin Fins: 2-1
Eldrazi: 2-0
Shardless Mirror: 2-0
Legend Miracles: 2-0

I am really liking the Life from the Loam and the 2 Surgical Extractions so far. Yet to play lands with them, but I am thinking they will be really good in tandem with the 3 Wastelands and 3 Baleful Strix (actually being able to block Marit for a turn can be so crucial)

[minyafriend]

Went 4-1 again in today's league.

Burning Reanimator: 0-2 (I misplayed, in short I thought he was tin fins because I saw Children of Korlis, so I kept up a DRS for instant speed reanimation g2 but he only had sorcery speed. THis allowed him enough time to get a pyroclasm and reanimate a Grave Titan which created tokens that killed me after GT traded with a Strix. Live and learn I guess)
Tin Fins: 2-1
Eldrazi: 2-0
Shardless Mirror: 2-0
Legend Miracles: 2-0

I am really liking the Life from the Loam and the 2 Surgical Extractions so far. Yet to play lands with them, but I am thinking they will be really good in tandem with the 3 Wastelands and 3 Baleful Strix (actually being able to block Marit for a turn can be so crucial)

I know these interactions have been explored before on this thread but I couldn't help but bring up that surgical is a very bad cascade flip. Although great cards, Loam/ waste/ surgical seems like more of a bug delver thing and less synergistic with shardless.
I was watching the fire and dice matchup of you vs goblins and the first thing I noticed was that after your first Liliana you make him sac his only creature and then you aggressively +1 a brainstorm and then an ancestral visions. I notice you have no blue but you do have a deathrite. I also understand our deck performs well in topdeck mode but sometimes I'm scared to go all in on my lili plus one until I've gotten all the value I can out of my current hand. Is this matchup a good example of how you typically use lili or just how you use her against decks like goblins.

[ironclad8690]

I went 4-1 in another league this morning with this list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Life from the Loam


Miracles: 2-0
Infect: 1-2
Aggro Loam: 2-1
Miracles: 2-0
Oops All Spells: 2-0

This list feels so consistent and powerful. Surgicals were very key in the Aggro Loam and Oops all Spells matchups. I could have even gone 2-0 vs Aggro Loam, but I sideboarded incorrectly thinking he was Lands g1 (cut 2 Abrupt Decay which would have been nice vs Chalice @ 1).

Infect just had the turn 2 invig + berserk g1 and the infinite creature draw game 3.


I know these interactions have been explored before on this thread but I couldn't help but bring up that surgical is a very bad cascade flip. Although great cards, Loam/ waste/ surgical seems like more of a bug delver thing and less synergistic with shardless.
I was watching the fire and dice matchup of you vs goblins and the first thing I noticed was that after your first Liliana you make him sac his only creature and then you aggressively +1 a brainstorm and then an ancestral visions. I notice you have no blue but you do have a deathrite. I also understand our deck performs well in topdeck mode but sometimes I'm scared to go all in on my lili plus one until I've gotten all the value I can out of my current hand. Is this matchup a good example of how you typically use lili or just how you use her against decks like goblins.

Surgical can be a crappy cascade, but it is almost never dead vs the decks we want it vs (as opposed to something like Flusterstorm which is a completely dead cascade). If you hit it off a cascade vs something like Reanimator when they don't have a good target you can just not cast it, and then it can be found with Brainstorm/Ancestral after a shuffle. I am fine with the % of the time I cascade into it and it is dead, it is just such a valuable card vs bad matchups like Loam and Lands (not to mention often winning on the spot against Reanimator, Tin Fins, Oops all Spells, Zombardment, ANT etc).

I use Lili pretty aggressively most of the time. I felt pretty confident that as long as I can keep lili alive he couldn't win. To do that, I had to leave DRS back on defense against a haste threat, and I definitely wanted to attack his hand and also be able to -2 if he got a good creature. It could be those were not correct, I just usually err on the side of aggression due to my nature and deck history. I try to play Shardless like a zoo deck, if that makes any sense (it's a stretch of a comparison I know).

[surface33]

@ironclad8690
Ill recommend you trying the 4 hymn version, im having a really good win% and has a lot of synergy with SE

[ironclad8690]

@ironclad8690
Ill recommend you trying the 4 hymn version, im having a really good win% and has a lot of synergy with SE

Cool! What do you cut for the 2 extra hymns?

[surface33]

Cool! What do you cut for the 2 extra hymns?

I play your exact same list except for 2 baleful main 1 side and 3 AV in the 75. I started running 4 AV but lost a couple of games where I draw 2 or 3.

[Dutch253]

Hey guys! Is this the same deck as BUG Delver or is that a different deck? If so is there a separate thread for BUG Delver? I'm a bit confused because I thought BUG Delver didn't play Shardless Agent. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grizzle_grizzle]

Dutch here is the link to the Team America (BUG Delver) thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27874-DTB-Team-America-(BUG-Delver)&p=937580#post937580

[Dutch253]

Dutch here is the link to the Team America (BUG Delver) thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27874-DTB-Team-America-(BUG-Delver)&p=937580#post937580

Ahh there we go! Thank you!


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[SilkyPimP]

Hey everyone. Have not played in a few months, How are we sideboarding against eldrazi?

I am on 3 Strix 4 Fow 2 hymn 1 disfigure 1 pulse 1 deluge
Currently only 2 Lily otv and 1 Jace Vryn.

1 Pulse main and one in the board against eldrazi/mentor/mud

Lands has been big so I am leaning more of a 3-4 Leyline side vs the white splash (not much combo, meddling mage was amazing against lands when I played in in Seattle but I am sure I sided wrong and Dont want to lose like 6 sideboard spots to the white splash

[Ephemeron]

I managed to beat lands at a legacy challenge at GP:DC yesterday. I feel like that should entitle me to an extra 100 prize wall points or so...

[ironclad8690]

Hey everyone. Have not played in a few months, How are we sideboarding against eldrazi?

I am on 3 Strix 4 Fow 2 hymn 1 disfigure 1 pulse 1 deluge
Currently only 2 Lily otv and 1 Jace Vryn.

1 Pulse main and one in the board against eldrazi/mentor/mud

Lands has been big so I am leaning more of a 3-4 Leyline side vs the white splash (not much combo, meddling mage was amazing against lands when I played in in Seattle but I am sure I sided wrong and Dont want to lose like 6 sideboard spots to the white splash

I usually just bring in disfigures and a sylvan library (or life from the loam) taking out 1 Ancestral Vision, 1 Force of Will, and 1 Hymn to Tourach. I am not sure if this is correct, but I am 16-0 in matches against them so I figure I'm doing something right.

[btm10]

Hey everyone. Have not played in a few months, How are we sideboarding against eldrazi?

I am on 3 Strix 4 Fow 2 hymn 1 disfigure 1 pulse 1 deluge
Currently only 2 Lily otv and 1 Jace Vryn.

1 Pulse main and one in the board against eldrazi/mentor/mud

Lands has been big so I am leaning more of a 3-4 Leyline side vs the white splash (not much combo, meddling mage was amazing against lands when I played in in Seattle but I am sure I sided wrong and Dont want to lose like 6 sideboard spots to the white splash

So you're MD'ing the Disfigure? If that's the case, I'd go -1 Disfigure, +1 Pulse. It's hard to offer advice without the full 75



I managed to beat lands at a legacy challenge at GP:DC yesterday. I feel like that should entitle me to an extra 100 prize wall points or so...

Sweet.

[SilkyPimP]

Played in a IQ this saturday, Showed up late (been dealing with a ton of family issues/depression so super hyped to play some Legacy so dragged myself there just in time and scribbled down my decklist)

Lost round 1 to Aaron Barich playing infect, I feel like our cards pair well with theres on paper but I get destroyed most of the time I play this matchup against a good pilot. I had pithing needle/deluge/Golgari charm/Disfigure/Pulse to bring in, I took out 2 Ancestrall/1 Agent/2Creeping tarpit. Pretty sure this is wrong lol. How do you all Side against Infect?

Round 2. 2-1 vs Storm

Round 3. 2-0 vs WU stoneblade/delver

Round 4. 2-0 vs Miracles

Round 5. ID with a buddy

top 8 I get deck checked and yup....scribbled down my deck wrong 1 card off I changed a few cards from my list so I messed up. Killer get a game loss in top 8 now lol.

Top 8 play against ur STORMCHASER mage/delver/swiftspear with price of progress. I lost a boring game where I live way too long and cant find any pressure and he finally plays a 2nd stormchaser and does ponder/bolt/ price.
O well, I feel like I would of stomped him in 3 games :tongue:





4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Shardless
3 Strix
1 Jace, Vryn Prodigy

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral visions
4 Force of will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom pulse
2 Hymn
1 Disfigure
1 Toxic deluge
2 Lily of the Veil


1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical
2 Creeping tarpit
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted delta
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest

[ironclad8690]

Lost round 1 to Aaron Barich playing infect, I feel like our cards pair well with theres on paper but I get destroyed most of the time I play this matchup against a good pilot. I had pithing needle/deluge/Golgari charm/Disfigure/Pulse to bring in, I took out 2 Ancestrall/1 Agent/2 Shardless/Creeping tarpit. Pretty sure this is wrong lol. How do you all Side against Infect?

Not sure what you mean by 2 Shardless/1 Agent, but I would try cutting a couple of Tarmogoyf. We don't really need more than 1 beefy ground dude. Shardless Agents are great post board because we have more live cards to cascade in to. I trim an Ancestral too. Baleful strix is MVP, sometimes they will just have trample and kill you, but being able to hold off an inkmoth nexus is great. I cut 1 Hymn too, because you want to answer the board, but it can be good in the right circumstances.

[SilkyPimP]

Not sure what you mean by 2 Shardless/1 Agent, but I would try cutting a couple of Tarmogoyf. We don't really need more than 1 beefy ground dude. Shardless Agents are great post board because we have more live cards to cascade in to. I trim an Ancestral too. Baleful strix is MVP, sometimes they will just have trample and kill you, but being able to hold off an inkmoth nexus is great. I cut 1 Hymn too, because you want to answer the board, but it can be good in the right circumstances.


Oops. Meant I cut 2 tarpit/2 visions/1 Agent.

[o_boogie]

Greetings. I played Shardless at the GP DC legacy challenges. The deck performed great. I entered two challenges and finished 3-0-1 in both.

Main:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Visions
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

Board:
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scrubland
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

Matchups:

Challenge #1:

Beat Miracles 2-0 (Board strategy: -1 Baleful Strix, -3 Wasteland [did not see Karakas]; +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle)

Beat Merfolk 2-1 (-4 Force of Will; +2 Disfigure, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Null Rod)

Beat Dark Maverick 2-1 (Did not see any discard after a long and grindy game 1 and opponent ran at least two copies of Mirran Crusader so I opted to keep in some Force of Will; -1 Force of Will, -3 Hymn to Tourach; +2 Disfigure, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Null Rod)

ID

Challenge #2:

Beat Miracles 2-0 (Same as above)

Beat Burn 2-1 (-1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Toxic Deluge, -2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor; +2 Disfigure, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Hymn to Tourach);

Beat Elves 2-1 (-2 Baleful Strix, -3 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Forest, -1 Swamp; +2 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm; +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Pithing Needle)

ID

There isn't really anything to fancy about this list other than a few small tweaks.

I opted to run 21 lands instead of the customary 22. I found more often than not I would flood out on mana. Throughout the challenges I never had any sort of mana problems, so that is encouraging despite the small sample size. Cutting the land allowed me to add a second Jace main.

I cut the fourth Ancestral Visions for a Sylvan Library. Ancestral is a pretty bad late game topdeck. Sylvan at least provides value the turn after it resolves. Of course it is a great cascade target and also helps set up some nice cascades.

I played no copies of Thoughtseize/Duress in the 75 in order to support four Hymn to Tourach. In the matchups where one mana discard spells are relevant (i.e., combo), those decks run enough card selection to recoup the lost card. Since our clock is not the best, the one mana discard spells are rarely high enough impact and function more like treading water in my experience.

I look forward to any feedback. Cheers.

[MorphBerlin]

Lost round 1 to Aaron Barich playing infect, I feel like our cards pair well with theres on paper but I get destroyed most of the time I play this matchup against a good pilot. I had pithing needle/deluge/Golgari charm/Disfigure/Pulse to bring in, I took out 2 Ancestrall/1 Agent/2Creeping tarpit. Pretty sure this is wrong lol. How do you all Side against Infect?

Top 8 play against ur STORMCHASER mage/delver/swiftspear with price of progress. I lost a boring game where I live way too long and cant find any pressure and he finally plays a 2nd stormchaser and does ponder/bolt/ price.
O well, I feel like I would of stomped him in 3 games :tongue:



Infect is 50/50 I would say. We have great answers but they have to allign to their draw too. Their abillity to counter decay with Vines and Inkmoth is crucial.

I would like to give you SB advice but you didnt list your SB ;)

Winners are: Disfigure, NOSB, Deluge, Needle, Thoughtseize, FOW, Sylvan
Dont like: Jace, lilli (fetch for Dryad), Pulse (slow), Hymn, 4th goyf

[MorphBerlin]

Greetings. I played Shardless at the GP DC legacy challenges. The deck performed great. I entered two challenges and finished 3-0-1 in both.

Main:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Visions
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

Board:
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scrubland
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

Matchups:

Challenge #1:

Beat Miracles 2-0 (Board strategy: -1 Baleful Strix, -3 Wasteland [did not see Karakas]; +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle)

Beat Merfolk 2-1 (-4 Force of Will; +2 Disfigure, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Null Rod)

Beat Dark Maverick 2-1 (Did not see any discard after a long and grindy game 1 and opponent ran at least two copies of Mirran Crusader so I opted to keep in some Force of Will; -1 Force of Will, -3 Hymn to Tourach; +2 Disfigure, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Null Rod)

ID

Challenge #2:

Beat Miracles 2-0 (Same as above)

Beat Burn 2-1 (-1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Toxic Deluge, -2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor; +2 Disfigure, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Hymn to Tourach);

Beat Elves 2-1 (-2 Baleful Strix, -3 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Forest, -1 Swamp; +2 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm; +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Pithing Needle)

ID

There isn't really anything to fancy about this list other than a few small tweaks.

I opted to run 21 lands instead of the customary 22. I found more often than not I would flood out on mana. Throughout the challenges I never had any sort of mana problems, so that is encouraging despite the small sample size. Cutting the land allowed me to add a second Jace main.

I cut the fourth Ancestral Visions for a Sylvan Library. Ancestral is a pretty bad late game topdeck. Sylvan at least provides value the turn after it resolves. Of course it is a great cascade target and also helps set up some nice cascades.

I played no copies of Thoughtseize/Duress in the 75 in order to support four Hymn to Tourach. In the matchups where one mana discard spells are relevant (i.e., combo), those decks run enough card selection to recoup the lost card. Since our clock is not the best, the one mana discard spells are rarely high enough impact and function more like treading water in my experience.

I look forward to any feedback. Cheers.

Cutting a land and playing 21 Lands with 3 Wastelands and putting in Jace really seems greedy to me. You dodged Delver in both challenges but I wouldn"t feel comfortable against Grixis Delver with Deck.

Against Miracles the golgari charm is against mentor tokens and cb? I like Deluge+maybe Hymn better here, because one spell counters charm and cb also can counter it (they may even board it out).

You Cut 2 Lands against Elves? So you are going down to 16 Lands+3 Wastelands? Seems really risky to me, especially since you have to expect your DRS to be unusable.


For your Point of going to 3+1 Hymns no Seize: It is right what you say about them replacing the piece. Hitting with hymn is so big, but first of all it takes time, which is really crucial against ANT (I feel like surviving the first 3 Turns is half way to winning.) And if You are on the draw and you have your interaction on T2 rather than T1 it can easily be game. And since we are already very likely to loose G1 I want to have the lower mana curve on disruption.

[o_boogie]

Cutting a land and playing 21 Lands with 3 Wastelands and putting in Jace really seems greedy to me. You dodged Delver in both challenges but I wouldn"t feel comfortable against Grixis Delver with Deck.

Against Miracles the golgari charm is against mentor tokens and cb? I like Deluge+maybe Hymn better here, because one spell counters charm and cb also can counter it (they may even board it out).

You Cut 2 Lands against Elves? So you are going down to 16 Lands+3 Wastelands? Seems really risky to me, especially since you have to expect your DRS to be unusable.


For your Point of going to 3+1 Hymns no Seize: It is right what you say about them replacing the piece. Hitting with hymn is so big, but first of all it takes time, which is really crucial against ANT (I feel like surviving the first 3 Turns is half way to winning.) And if You are on the draw and you have your interaction on T2 rather than T1 it can easily be game. And since we are already very likely to loose G1 I want to have the lower mana curve on disruption.

Twenty one lands may very well be greedy. However, there really is not much Delver in my meta. If I brought this to a large tournament I would probably cut one Hymn for a Creeping Tar Pit. I figured the challenges would be a good place to test it.

I like Golgari Charm a lot in the Miracles matchup. Both Miracles opponents seemed like beginners so I expected them to keep in some number of Counterbalance postboard. It also is a nice answer to RIP, Blood Moon, Mentor monk spam, Clique, Snapcaster, etc. I did keep in a singleton copy of Deluge postboard. I also like Hymn a lot in the matchup, but four seemed excessive. I was content with three.

The Elves player is a good friend of mine. I know his exact 75. He was not running Choke. For that reason I decided to be greedy and take out the basics.

You raise a valid point about Thoughtseize and the ANT matchup. However, I am not really sure what to cut in order to make room for them.

[Svyelunite]

Hey there everyone! If you ever wanted to learn about the history of Shardless Sultai and how it was developed, we have quite the treat for you. Gerry Thompson features on MTG Training Grounds' latest episode to tell the tale of Legacy's grindiest powerhouse.

YouTube: https://youtu.be/5X4uCPLvPb8
Podcast: https://archive.org/details/LegacysAllureShardlessSultaiWithGerryThompson

This is obviously geared towards newer players of the deck, but there is always valuable info when getting direct from the source :wink:

[grim confident]

Maelstrom Pulse is really necessary in BUG "Shardless" Control？
I think it is bad in lots of match up and i don't want to see it when begin.:mad:

[btm10]

Hey there everyone! If you ever wanted to learn about the history of Shardless Sultai and how it was developed, we have quite the treat for you. Gerry Thompson features on MTG Training Grounds' latest episode to tell the tale of Legacy's grindiest powerhouse.

YouTube: https://youtu.be/5X4uCPLvPb8
Podcast: https://archive.org/details/LegacysAllureShardlessSultaiWithGerryThompson

This is obviously geared towards newer players of the deck, but there is always valuable info when getting direct from the source :wink:

It was a good conversation, though I think it could've benefitted from more depth on some points, particularly where you were contrasting conventional and unconventional decks. I felt like the issue of the deck's simplicity was left somewhat unresolved at the end (unless "it plays a lot like a Standard/Modern midrange deck" was the point of that segment). Also, I would've liked to hear Gerry's thoughts on how well the deck is positioned now, especially in light of his recent statements about trying to win more and play the best deck.


Maelstrom Pulse is really necessary in BUG "Shardless" Control？
I think it is bad in lots of match up and i don't want to see it when begin.:mad:

It would take a huge meta shift to make me go below one copy in the 75. There are times when I want a second. You can cut it, but if your meta has lots of Grixis or BUG Delver, the mirror, Miracles, Loam, or Eldrazi, I woud advise against cutting it.

[btm10]

I won the Tales of Adventure 5K Satellite for Eternal Extravaganza today, going 5-0-1 (ID) in the strangest Swiss of my life, where I played Eldrazi three times (2-0, 2-0, 2-1) and Lands twice (2-1, 2-0) before drawing into Top 8. In Top 8 I played against Grixis Delver (2-1), UR Delver (with Set Adrift, 2-1), and TES (2-1). I'll post a list sometime tomorrow.

[surface33]

I won the Tales of Adventure 5K Satellite for Eternal Extravaganza today, going 5-0-1 (ID) in the strangest Swiss of my life, where I played Eldrazi three times (2-0, 2-0, 2-1) and Lands twice (2-1, 2-0) before drawing into Top 8. In Top 8 I played against Grixis Delver (2-1), UR Delver (with Set Adrift, 2-1), and TES (2-1). I'll post a list sometime tomorrow.

Congrats on the win. You faced tough MU and managed to win them. It would be nice if a part from your list you post a quick summary of the lands games.

[btm10]

Congrats on the win. You faced tough MU and managed to win them. It would be nice if a part from your list you post a quick summary of the lands games.

Thanks!

The list was:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit


Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Planar Void
1 Sylvan Library


My first Lands opponent was on the traditional RG list, while the second was on a Jund list similar to the one David Long used to top 8 SCG Philly. I wasn't sure what the RG player was on, but we were next to the Jund player, so the next round I had relevant information for mulliganing game 1. I incidentally kept a hand with DRS and Force against RG in game 1, and aggressively used Force to stop Gamble when he cast it, then Brainstormed into a Decay for his Exploration. He can't find a Punishing Fire to kill my Deathrite before I find a second one, and I draw all 4 Wastelands in a long, grindy game 1. Goyf and Agent close it out. I lose a close game 2 where I try to play around Punishing Fire + Marit Lage hit (he has the combo on board but can't go off through my Wasteland) by going to 23 life with a Deathrite activation, but this line leaves me a damage short of lethal when he finds Port and a Punishing Fire off of his next Loam and my Agent can't get through Marit Lage. I get a fast start with Deathrite and Force for his Gamble in game 3, but I break up the combo with Wasteland and force him to make the token in combat while I have Liliana and Planar Void in hand with DRS on board, stopping him from using Loam to re-assemble the combo. He kills the DRS with a topdecked Punishing Fire, then turtles up behind Maze of Ith and Stage copying Maze to hold off my Tombstalker and Goyf, but I continue to get through with a Shardless Agent. I ultimate Liliana at 7, split his colored sources against his Mazes, and he scoops. I basically got a free win against the Jund player in game 1 when he punts by comboing into my untapped Wasteland. He realizes his error when I waste the Stage with its Depths trigger on the stack, leaving him with a Wasteland and a Mox Diamond. He Decays a Deathrite at one point, but never really recovers. In Game 2 I mulligan to Force, 3 lands, Agent, Clique, scry Decay to the top, and he starts with Gamble that I Force pitching Clique. I play fetch, pass, and he plays Exploration into Grove and a Wasteland. I fetch basics, Decay Exploration, and pass again. I find Deathrite at about the same time he finds Loam, and he meticulously plays around me eating Loam by holding up Tranquil Thicket mana after Loaming it back to his hand, so I fight it by eating his lands to advance my board instead. Tombstalker shows up and starts taking big chunks of his life total and is joined by a Goyf soon afterward. Cutting Punishing Fire for Molten Vortex bites him here as it not only puts in Enchantment in the bin for Goyf, but also means that he can't use Loam to find his removal. He finds a Maze and then Crop Rotates for Glacial Chasm when he's at 9. He combos on my endstep at 3 life before sacrificing Glacial Chasm in his upkeep. He swings, I chump with Tombstalker, and he scoops to lethal on board.

I boarded as:

-2 Hymn
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Thoughtseize (this is arguably incorrect on the play since turn 1 Thoughtseize lets you take something like Vortex, Decay, or Gamble)

+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Planar Void
+1 Vendillion Clique
+1 Sylvan Library

in both Lands matchups.

EDIT: My notes as a whole aren't great, and the wins against TES and Lands obviously involved a measure of luck (I blind hit a Hymn that I absolutely needed off of a Shardless Agent in game 1 against TES and drew running hardcastable Forces to beat his running bombs in game 3). If any of my opponents read this and I got something wrong, feel free to correct the record.

[ironclad8690]

Nice job! Planar Void is sick tech. I am going to give that card a try. I love how much Eldrazi is everywhere right now, makes a Shardless player's life pretty easy.

[ironclad8690]

Went 4-1 again twice. Lost to BUG Delver in the first league (bad luck), and then to Sneak and Show in the second. Beat the mirror a ton, UR Delver, Dragon Stompy, Eldrazi x3, Aggro Loam, and something else which I can't remember. List is in sig.

[btm10]

Nice job! Planar Void is sick tech. I am going to give that card a try. I love how much Eldrazi is everywhere right now, makes a Shardless player's life pretty easy.

Thanks. I wouldn't mind a third Liliana for that matchup, but it's probably not needed. Tombstalker was fantastic all day though, not just against Lands. He stabilized boards against Delvers and Stormchaser Mages, traded with Reality Smashers, ate a Thought-Knot, and provided real closing speed. He did get Set Adrift twice against UR Delver, but recasting him wasn't awful. Dismember was a great SB call, both for Eldrazi and as a way to kill Gurmag Angler and Prowess creatures.


Went 4-1 again twice. Lost to BUG Delver in the first league (bad luck), and then to Sneak and Show in the second. Beat the mirror a ton, UR Delver, Dragon Stompy, Eldrazi x3, Aggro Loam, and something else which I can't remember. List is in sig.

How have you felt about the third Strix? You've got it in what I consider my second Jace slot, but I've boarded Jace out a lot lately which might be telling.

[ironclad8690]

I can't 5-0 for the life of me. 4-0 again and then fucking tribal flames delver zoo who draws 4 Wild Nacatls, 2 Tarmogoyfs, 2 Delvers, 2 Tribal Flames and a Snapcaster game 1 (I almost won but drew 1 too many lands), beat him game 2, game 3 never draw a third land and his 2 delvers flip naturally on turn 3. He tells me after the match that he plays 13 creatures, which made the game 1 loss very frustrating, he just drew running creatures with no manipulation at all. Oh well, I can't complain about beating Miracles, Eldrazi, BUG Delver, and Oops all spells...

[ironclad8690]

Thanks. I wouldn't mind a third Liliana for that matchup, but it's probably not needed. Tombstalker was fantastic all day though, not just against Lands. He stabilized boards against Delvers and Stormchaser Mages, traded with Reality Smashers, ate a Thought-Knot, and provided real closing speed. He did get Set Adrift twice against UR Delver, but recasting him wasn't awful. Dismember was a great SB call, both for Eldrazi and as a way to kill Gurmag Angler and Prowess creatures.

Nice, I might switch a disfigure to a dismember.


How have you felt about the third Strix? You've got it in what I consider my second Jace slot, but I've boarded Jace out a lot lately which might be telling.

I swear by it, there are so many matchups where he shines. Jace 2 is nice, but I have found that sticking to less powerful but more consistent plays to be better for my playstyle (I was playing 2 Jace but found myself boarding him/them out a lot and Strix is just so good vs any deck with large creatures).

[Jaytron]

Ironclad, I'm thinking of taking something very similar to your list (1 less sea, 1 more WL) to my local meta. The meta is overly fair with not much combo around. The largest part of the meta seems to be Grixis Delver (4 last week, I would have been the 5th as I normally play Delver as well). What is your SB strategy against them?

I'd assume:
-4 FoW
+1 NoSB
+2 Disfigure (or Dismember, I may run a few for Gurmag)
+1 Loam

I feel like you'd also want to bring in Golgari Charm, but I'm not sure what you'd drop for this. Baleful feels really good in the matchup, trading with any of their threats. Surgical too cute for the matchup? I feel like WL'ing and locking them out of a color, or even just taking their WLs could be backbreaking.

[surface33]

Guys looks like you dont face a lot of combo. For example ironclad list is only running 4 fow and 2 hymn main deck, i think that if you go to a big tournament and with 7+ rounds it is going to be hard to beat combo 3-4 times with that list(in y experience people tend to play combo in large tournaments). Wouldnt you prefer cutting the 4th AV and move 1 baleful to the side and add two more discard spells(thoughtseize or hymn) to the main? Is just a suggestion but I think it would make the deck more consistent. also planar void looks like an incredible card, I didnt even know it existed.

[ironclad8690]

Ironclad, I'm thinking of taking something very similar to your list (1 less sea, 1 more WL) to my local meta. The meta is overly fair with not much combo around. The largest part of the meta seems to be Grixis Delver (4 last week, I would have been the 5th as I normally play Delver as well). What is your SB strategy against them?

I'd assume:
-4 FoW
+1 NoSB
+2 Disfigure (or Dismember, I may run a few for Gurmag)
+1 Loam

I feel like you'd also want to bring in Golgari Charm, but I'm not sure what you'd drop for this. Baleful feels really good in the matchup, trading with any of their threats. Surgical too cute for the matchup? I feel like WL'ing and locking them out of a color, or even just taking their WLs could be backbreaking.

Grixis is actually pretty tough. Usually I go:

-2 Hymn, -2 Force of Will, -1 Jace
+2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure, +1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

My reasoning is that you still want some number of FOW to be able to interact with Young P. and Gurmag on the stack. Should they resolve, you want all of your lilys for Gurmag and plenty of sweepers for Young Pyro (but don't be afraid to use a Disfigure or Decay on him pronto, you do not want those tokens getting out of control).

Loam is actually too slow vs them, I bring in Loam vs pretty much all midrangey-er delver variants though.


Guys looks like you dont face a lot of combo. For example ironclad list is only running 4 fow and 2 hymn main deck, i think that if you go to a big tournament and with 7+ rounds it is going to be hard to beat combo 3-4 times with that list(in y experience people tend to play combo in large tournaments). Wouldnt you prefer cutting the 4th AV and move 1 baleful to the side and add two more discard spells(thoughtseize or hymn) to the main? Is just a suggestion but I think it would make the deck more consistent. also planar void looks like an incredible card, I didnt even know it existed.

I have tried this, and it is possible it is the better way to go. I am trying to play the least amount of 1 drops possible to combat the rise of Chalice of the Void decks lately. I have not experienced that much of an issue not running it though, and Surgical postboard really helps the combo matchups.

[Jaytron]

Grixis is actually pretty tough. Usually I go:

-2 Hymn, -2 Force of Will, -1 Jace
+2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure, +1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

My reasoning is that you still want some number of FOW to be able to interact with Young P. and Gurmag on the stack. Should they resolve, you want all of your lilys for Gurmag and plenty of sweepers for Young Pyro (but don't be afraid to use a Disfigure or Decay on him pronto, you do not want those tokens getting out of control).

Loam is actually too slow vs them, I bring in Loam vs pretty much all midrangey-er delver variants though.



I have tried this, and it is possible it is the better way to go. I am trying to play the least amount of 1 drops possible to combat the rise of Chalice of the Void decks lately. I have not experienced that much of an issue not running it though, and Surgical postboard really helps the combo matchups.
Interesting, I felt that Grixis can grind games out (The 2x cabal main, no stifle version, Noahs list). Or do you mean even grindier Delver decks like BUG (Hymn/Lili).

[ironclad8690]

Grixis certainly can grind, but in my opinion they can get out of hand too quickly to be durdling with Loam. I bring it in vs RUG though, because RUG has a slower rate.

[Jaytron]

Grixis certainly can grind, but in my opinion they can get out of hand too quickly to be durdling with Loam. I bring it in vs RUG though, because RUG has a slower rate.

Yeah, YP can get out of control pretty fast.

I assume you mean BUG, not RUG though. :P RUG is insanely fast.

[ironclad8690]

Nope, RUG Delver I will bring in Loam against. They are fast, but at least their creatures don't multiply while they durdle. I feel confident in my ability to go behind a little bit vs RUG to Loam stuff, but Grixis punishes you with Deathrite and Young Pyro for doing that.

[Jaytron]

Nope, RUG Delver I will bring in Loam against. They are fast, but at least their creatures don't multiply while they durdle. I feel confident in my ability to go behind a little bit vs RUG to Loam stuff, but Grixis punishes you with Deathrite and Young Pyro for doing that.

Interesting, thanks!

[ironclad8690]

Finally lost my first match to eldrazi.

He had to draw 3 Reality Smashers + Jitte and a Thought-Knot Seer as well as hitting every land drop. I couldn't find a 3rd land in 7 draw steps.

Edit: He also found Cavern of Souls exactly when he needed to to play all around Force, which I had in hand.

[btm10]

Guys looks like you dont face a lot of combo. For example ironclad list is only running 4 fow and 2 hymn main deck, i think that if you go to a big tournament and with 7+ rounds it is going to be hard to beat combo 3-4 times with that list(in y experience people tend to play combo in large tournaments). Wouldnt you prefer cutting the 4th AV and move 1 baleful to the side and add two more discard spells(thoughtseize or hymn) to the main? Is just a suggestion but I think it would make the deck more consistent. also planar void looks like an incredible card, I didnt even know it existed.

Planar Void has some real downsides too: unlike Leyline, it's symmetric and unlike Rest in Peace it doesn't deal with cards that are already in the graveyard, so you do have to split it with Spellbomb or Surgical Extraction or have a Deathrite ready to clean up.

As for combo - I think any more than 4 discard spells main is really pushing it right now. Eldrazi and Delver decks are both still around, and both demand a certian level of playing to the board. Discard is great in both matchups when you're on the play, but it's mediocre at best on the draw since both decks force you to answer their threats quickly. Shardless gets a significant boost to its combo matchups simply by being blue, as they won't know that we don't have Daze or Spell Pierce until we reveal Agent or Visions. I'm not saying that this makes those matchups favorable, but I've always been of the opinion that the weakness in those matchups has less to do with a lack of relevant disruption than it does the lack of a fast clock.


Ironclad, I'm thinking of taking something very similar to your list (1 less sea, 1 more WL) to my local meta. The meta is overly fair with not much combo around. The largest part of the meta seems to be Grixis Delver (4 last week, I would have been the 5th as I normally play Delver as well). What is your SB strategy against them?

I'd assume:
-4 FoW
+1 NoSB
+2 Disfigure (or Dismember, I may run a few for Gurmag)
+1 Loam

I feel like you'd also want to bring in Golgari Charm, but I'm not sure what you'd drop for this. Baleful feels really good in the matchup, trading with any of their threats. Surgical too cute for the matchup? I feel like WL'ing and locking them out of a color, or even just taking their WLs could be backbreaking.

For another perspective, my plan against Grixis Delver is:

-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-2 Hymn
-1 Thoughtseize (if they have Therapy but not Stifle)

+2 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Sylvan Library (if they have Therapy but not Stifle)

On the play I sometimes shave 2 Forces on the play instead of the Thoughtseize, in which case the second Seize comes in and the Sylvan remains in the board. My postboard plan is to just kill everything they play, and Force is either a removal spell that lets me play my threats, or the most effective way to force haymakers like Liliana or Goyf through. I prioroitize killing Delvers very highly and prefer to let my ground creatures handle Pyromancer and his tokens, ao Golgari Charm is mostly insurance against him getting out of hand rather than my plan A against the deck. I agree with Ironclad that Loam is too slow against them.

[surface33]

Planar Void has some real downsides too: unlike Leyline, it's symmetric and unlike Rest in Peace it doesn't deal with cards that are already in the graveyard, so you do have to split it with Spellbomb or Surgical Extraction or have a Deathrite ready to clean up.

As for combo - I think any more than 4 discard spells main is really pushing it right now. Eldrazi and Delver decks are both still around, and both demand a certian level of playing to the board. Discard is great in both matchups when you're on the play, but it's mediocre at best on the draw since both decks force you to answer their threats quickly. Shardless gets a significant boost to its combo matchups simply by being blue, as they won't know that we don't have Daze or Spell Pierce until we reveal Agent or Visions. I'm not saying that this makes those matchups favorable, but I've always been of the opinion that the weakness in those matchups has less to do with a lack of relevant disruption than it does the lack of a fast clock.



I was suggesting 4 discards main, not more. The list I was referring to only runs 2 main. I agree when you say the clock is important and thats why i run 3 meddling mage and 1 vendilion in the side, the provide both, disruption and clock. However, if you choose clock over disruption I think you will have a bad time beating combo consistently.

[ironclad8690]

The 2 thoughtseize main are nice. Both of my 5-0s happened to be with the 2 thoughtseize 2 jace 3 ancestral 3 fow configuration, but ipretty much only played against fair decks anyways.

[Barook]

I'm looking for advice how Eldrazi can fight Shardless more effectively. Lately, I get crushed by Shardless with my GW list, no matter what. One thing I hate the most is probably Baleful Strix since it can stop my onslaught while drawing more cards.

I've tried many things, including Rest In Peace, All is Dust, SB equipment plan with Stoneforge and Sword of Feast and Famine, Displacer + Containment Priest combo, yet Shardless still overwhelms me. I'm starting to run out of ideas.

[ironclad8690]

Outside of luck, I am not sure if Eldrazi has the tools to beat Shardless. The only match I lost against Eldrazi I got stuck on 2 lands and he drew multiple reality smashers and connected with a Jitte early. I just think you have to accept that it is a bad matchup.

Things you could try that I haven't seen: Swords of Feast and Famine and Fire and Ice. Feast and Famine makes it so we can't block at all, and Fire and Ice solves the strix problem. The issue with Jitte is that you usually have to throw away a creature to get it active, the swords at least protect your guys. I don't think you need Stoneforge, just multiples maybe?

[btm10]

I'm looking for advice how Eldrazi can fight Shardless more effectively. Lately, I get crushed by Shardless with my GW list, no matter what. One thing I hate the most is probably Baleful Strix since it can stop my onslaught while drawing more cards.

I've tried many things, including Rest In Peace, All is Dust, SB equipment plan with Stoneforge and Sword of Feast and Famine, Displacer + Containment Priest combo, yet Shardless still overwhelms me. I'm starting to run out of ideas.

Your best cards in the matchup are Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Displacer, and Endbringer. Thought-Knot is pretty meh unless it's part of an explosive start or Shardless kept on the strength of a single card like Liliana or Strix. Reality Smasher is similarly only good as part of an explosive start because it's so easily outclassed in combat by Goyf. The best way to fight Shardless is probably either to go W/R or U/R to get access to Drowner of Hope and Eldrazi Obligator. Obligator in particular is scary because it forces the Shardless player to rely on things other than big creatures to stabilize the board, lest they be killed in an alpha strike when they thought they were ahead. I haven't analyzed all that many options in Black, but Bearer of Silence seems reasonable in the matchup given how much Shardless loves to chump block.

If you're set on G/W, the best options are Blight Herder to minimize Liliana or to take a note from 12Post and board out Chalices and Smashers for an anti-Wasteland card and huge bombs like Ulamog and Bane of Bala Ged.

Edit: Ironclad raises good points, but I do feel like you need 3+ pieces of equipment before that plan really comes online. Eldrazi is light on relevant Decay targets as it is (both because of its low card velocity and a low number of actual targets). Equipment does play well with Blight Herder, though.

[Ephemeron]

I'm looking for advice how Eldrazi can fight Shardless more effectively. Lately, I get crushed by Shardless with my GW list, no matter what. One thing I hate the most is probably Baleful Strix since it can stop my onslaught while drawing more cards.

I've tried many things, including Rest In Peace, All is Dust, SB equipment plan with Stoneforge and Sword of Feast and Famine, Displacer + Containment Priest combo, yet Shardless still overwhelms me. I'm starting to run out of ideas.

Play MUD.

That's obviously glib, but I think the difference between MUD and Eldrazi helps to show why Shardless is a fundamentally bad matchup for Eldrazi. One of your main weapons is Chalice, but out of all the blue decks in Legacy, Shardless cares about Chalice the least. The other problem is that all of your low-end threats die to Abrupt Decay and all of your high-end threats look pathetic attacking into Baleful Strix and get roadblocked and eventually outclassed by Tarmogoyf.

Eldrazi has been successful because it's a riff on the normal stompy class of decks but gets to play the most sol lands and is overall the least clunky because there's a nice curve of 2-6 mana threats. However, since shardless isn't going to kill you quickly, clunkiness matters less than overall threat quality. MUD is a crappy matchup for Shardless because the threats are so over the top: Wurmcoil and Ugin and stuff like that are just in another stratosphere from goyf. TKS and Reality Smasher are awesome and efficient, but cant get over the top of Goyf or Strix like that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that big stupid creatures that don't get outclassed by Tarmogyf and Strix are probably what you need. Stuff like Endbringer and Worldbreaker would be the best threats against Shardless. Does this make your deck too clunky against faster delver strategies? I dunno, maybe, but I think that's a price you'll have to pay if you want to do better against Shardless. You could also try Swords to Plowshares I guess since the cards you're having trouble with are creatures. I dunno how consistently your deck is able to produce white mana though.

[btm10]

Play MUD.

That's obviously glib, but I think the difference between MUD and Eldrazi helps to show why Shardless is a fundamentally bad matchup for Eldrazi. One of your main weapons is Chalice, but out of all the blue decks in Legacy, Shardless cares about Chalice the least. The other problem is that all of your low-end threats die to Abrupt Decay and all of your high-end threats look pathetic attacking into Baleful Strix and get roadblocked and eventually outclassed by Tarmogoyf.

Eldrazi has been successful because it's a riff on the normal stompy class of decks but gets to play the most sol lands and is overall the least clunky because there's a nice curve of 2-6 mana threats. However, since shardless isn't going to kill you quickly, clunkiness matters less than overall threat quality. MUD is a crappy matchup for Shardless because the threats are so over the top: Wurmcoil and Ugin and stuff like that are just in another stratosphere from goyf. TKS and Reality Smasher are awesome and efficient, but cant get over the top of Goyf or Strix like that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that big stupid creatures that don't get outclassed by Tarmogyf and Strix are probably what you need. Stuff like Endbringer and Worldbreaker would be the best threats against Shardless. Does this make your deck too clunky against faster delver strategies? I dunno, maybe, but I think that's a price you'll have to pay if you want to do better against Shardless. You could also try Swords to Plowshares I guess since the cards you're having trouble with are creatures. I dunno how consistently your deck is able to produce white mana though.

I'm surprised you feel this way - I think MUD is actually a slightly better matchup than Eldrazi since their threats are more expensive and their fast hands are far more vulnerable to our interaction. Wurmcoil is scary but still pretty beatable, while Ugin is usually embarrassing against decks with Hymn, Wasteland, Liliana, Jace, and Force. They have to get to 8 mana, which only the Post versions can do reliably without Metalworker, and not only are those versions about a turn slower than the regular Sol Land versions, and then they have to draw it in a window where you aren't Fatesealing them (or runner-runnering things that you can't beat with a Jace out), can't make them discard it, can't Force it, and aren't beating them to death with giant Goyfs.

[Ephemeron]

I'm surprised you feel this way - I think MUD is actually a slightly better matchup than Eldrazi since their threats are more expensive and their fast hands are far more vulnerable to our interaction. Wurmcoil is scary but still pretty beatable, while Ugin is usually embarrassing against decks with Hymn, Wasteland, Liliana, Jace, and Force. They have to get to 8 mana, which only the Post versions can do reliably without Metalworker, and not only are those versions about a turn slower than the regular Sol Land versions, and then they have to draw it in a window where you aren't Fatesealing them (or runner-runnering things that you can't beat with a Jace out), can't make them discard it, can't Force it, and aren't beating them to death with giant Goyfs.

I'll concede I haven't played a ton against the matchup (no one in my group plays it so I don't have a lot of control over that) but the few times I have, it felt fairly miserable. It reminded me a bit of the old modern Jund vs Tron matchup, where it didn't matter how efficient you were, eventually they'll just slam a giant threat and it will be really hard to deal with and even if you manage to get past the first one, the second one will finish you off. Unless I could totally stunt their mana, I'll admit will be easier now that I've upped the wasteland count, it just felt like any of their threats was absurdly hard to beat (not just wurmcoil, but platinum angel/emperion and random expensive powerful jank like that). The fact that Eldrazi threats are way scaled down to the point where Tarmogoyf is a comprable card is one of the biggest differences in the matchup I think.

[Barook]

Everybody thanks for the feedback.


Outside of luck, I am not sure if Eldrazi has the tools to beat Shardless. The only match I lost against Eldrazi I got stuck on 2 lands and he drew multiple reality smashers and connected with a Jitte early. I just think you have to accept that it is a bad matchup.

Things you could try that I haven't seen: Swords of Feast and Famine and Fire and Ice. Feast and Famine makes it so we can't block at all, and Fire and Ice solves the strix problem. The issue with Jitte is that you usually have to throw away a creature to get it active, the swords at least protect your guys. I don't think you need Stoneforge, just multiples maybe?
I run a 2 SFM in the board alongside SoFaI, SoFaF and SoWaP to get the full protection suit in various match-up. For Shardless, SoFaI and SoFaF come in. SFMs depend on the rest of the board I would bring in if there are slots left.

And no, just saying a "it's bad match-up" just doesn't cut it when I run into it 3x in a 5 round league and get rekt regularly (4% league representation my ass when the MTGO matchmaking algorithm is a PoS that pairs you against the same opponent multiple times during the same league run for both). My older list had more game against it (around 40-45% range). But that list had MD 2 All is Dust, 3 Warping Wails and 4 instead of 3 Mishra's Factories.


Your best cards in the matchup are Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Displacer, and Endbringer. Thought-Knot is pretty meh unless it's part of an explosive start or Shardless kept on the strength of a single card like Liliana or Strix. Reality Smasher is similarly only good as part of an explosive start because it's so easily outclassed in combat by Goyf. The best way to fight Shardless is probably either to go W/R or U/R to get access to Drowner of Hope and Eldrazi Obligator. Obligator in particular is scary because it forces the Shardless player to rely on things other than big creatures to stabilize the board, lest they be killed in an alpha strike when they thought they were ahead. I haven't analyzed all that many options in Black, but Bearer of Silence seems reasonable in the matchup given how much Shardless loves to chump block.

If you're set on G/W, the best options are Blight Herder to minimize Liliana or to take a note from 12Post and board out Chalices and Smashers for an anti-Wasteland card and huge bombs like Ulamog and Bane of Bala Ged.

Edit: Ironclad raises good points, but I do feel like you need 3+ pieces of equipment before that plan really comes online. Eldrazi is light on relevant Decay targets as it is (both because of its low card velocity and a low number of actual targets). Equipment does play well with Blight Herder, though.
I don't run Matter Reshaper since it's mainly a filler creature for most Eldrazi decks. Endbringer is also a card that is too slow in most match-ups for its little impact. I prefer running World Breaker over it. Displacer is an all-star against alot of creatures, but fails miserably when it comes to Strix.

Blight Herder needs fodder to be effective (not always guaranteed) and is just a terrible in many other match-ups.

As for Decay targets, I'll definitely bring in my 3 SB RiPs to prevent DRS shenanigans and to shrink Goyfs into irrelevancy. So there's that, but that alone isn't enough.

I wonder how many, if any, Thorns or Chalices I should leave in the MD against Shardless. CotV is way less effective than against e.g. Delver decks.

I'll probaby start with adding back some Warping Wails since extra removal against Strix is good and it can counter problematic sorceries in a pinch, namely Hymn or Ancestral, or random Toxic Deluges/Maelstrom Pulses.

[btm10]

Everybody thanks for the feedback.


I run a 2 SFM in the board alongside SoFaI, SoFaF and SoWaP to get the full protection suit in various match-up. For Shardless, SoFaI and SoFaF come in. SFMs depend on the rest of the board I would bring in if there are slots left.

And no, just saying a "it's bad match-up" just doesn't cut it when I run into it 3x in a 5 round league and get rekt regularly (4% league representation my ass when the MTGO matchmaking algorithm is a PoS that pairs you against the same opponent multiple times during the same league run for both). My older list had more game against it (around 40-45% range). But that list had MD 2 All is Dust, 3 Warping Wails and 4 instead of 3 Mishra's Factories.


I don't run Matter Reshaper since it's mainly a filler creature for most Eldrazi decks. Endbringer is also a card that is too slow in most match-ups for its little impact. I prefer running World Breaker over it. Displacer is an all-star against alot of creatures, but fails miserably when it comes to Strix.

Blight Herder needs fodder to be effective (not always guaranteed) and is just a terrible in many other match-ups.

As for Decay targets, I'll definitely bring in my 3 SB RiPs to prevent DRS shenanigans and to shrink Goyfs into irrelevancy. So there's that, but that alone isn't enough.

I wonder how many, if any, Thorns or Chalices I should leave in the MD against Shardless. CotV is way less effective than against e.g. Delver decks.

I'll probaby start with adding back some Warping Wails since extra removal against Strix is good and it can counter problematic sorceries in a pinch, namely Hymn or Ancestral, or random Toxic Deluges/Maelstrom Pulses.

The RiPs sound like a good plan. Chalice and Thorn are ok on the play, but I probably wouldn't have either in on the draw. Removal, equipment, and RiP are all better than Chalice or Thorn once Shardless is already playing to the board.

[ironclad8690]

I think Eldrazi needs to use Wails on Baleful Strix and Dismember goyf early. Sometimes a well placed Chalice on 1 or 0 can stop us too. Especially Chalice 0 if there is a Visions ticking down, I have a surprising amount of people Chalice @ 1 when 0 is clearly better to choose.

[fluuu]

I went 4-0 in a local tour store being first drawing with the second one who was playing shardless too.

The matches were:

NicFit 2:0
Jund with blood moon main 2:0
Jund punishing fire version 2:0 (second game opponent lost being at 1 life because of revealing bolt with dark confidant, i had too much luck this game)
Some sort of burn with scepter isochron+orim's chant 2:0

The list is the standard one. This deck look like a killing machine, its insane.

Sorry for my bad english.

[btm10]

There are several lists that are "stock" at this point. Do you have MD discard? SB Meddling/Mage? How many Strix?

[ironclad8690]

I am assuming he is using either the BoM winning list with 3 Hymn or the "discardless" Lejay style list, since most people who use Thoughtseize MD never apologize for their English (usually only Americans). I would wager he has a Meddling Mage board as well. Your English is fine by the way :)

[btm10]

I am assuming he is using either the BoM winning list with 3 Hymn or the "discardless" Lejay style list, since most people who use Thoughtseize MD never apologize for their English (usually only Americans). I would wager he has a Meddling Mage board as well. Your English is fine by the way :)

That's fair. We love our Thoughtseizes over here, but you're probably right that it tends to be a NA-only deckbuilding choice.

And yeah, your English is fine fluuu.

Unrelated, but I want to try out a Liliting Refrain in the board as an extra generic, proactive answer in grindy fair matchups like Miracles and Stoneblade. Has anyone else tried something like that?

[fluuu]

There are several lists that are "stock" at this point. Do you have MD discard? SB Meddling/Mage? How many Strix?

I played 3 hymn main and 2 Tsz side, 3meddling sb and 2 strix main. I played just 1 creeping tar with 3 wastelands.

[ironclad8690]

Lilting Refrain is very interesting. The first thing that comes to my mind when I see it is actually the combo matchups rather than the grindy ones. Against combo I find not having insurance for a topdecked spell to be pretty bad: here is an example of a time when I would have liked it (https://www.twitch.tv/adelorenzi/v/56172187?t=1h0m0s).

For those who don't want to watch, I was feeling pretty ahead against Rakdos Reanimator after spellbombing away his GY. I had a 5/6 Goyf on the field, and a Liliana with 3 counters. Aside from this we were in "topdeck mode" and he faithless looting'ed a Grave Titan into his yard and Animated Dead it and stole the game. I would have loved to have a counter effect like Lilting Refrain early to start building up counters so at least I could pre-emptively answers something like that.

Just an anecdote, but I could see something along those lines being pretty good.

[Whit3boy316]

New member here!
Just learned about this site, hope to use it as a resource for years to come.

Been playing shardless for a bit now but don't get enough reps with it as I would like. Dumb questions. Is jace really worth it? Most the time I have him I wish he was a 3rd lilly. What's the most common list floating out there now?

[ironclad8690]

New member here!
Just learned about this site, hope to use it as a resource for years to come.

Been playing shardless for a bit now but don't get enough reps with it as I would like. Dumb questions. Is jace really worth it? Most the time I have him I wish he was a 3rd lilly. What's the most common list floating out there now?

Jace is really good. He is one of the "power" cards in the deck, and removing him lowers the overall power level of the deck. I would never cut the last one, and much of the time I play 2. If your metagame has a lot of faster decks you can maybe put him in the sideboard instead, but I wouldn't recommend it.

He is at his best vs Miracles and other midrangey decks where each brainstorm you use past the first one puts you 1 card ahead of your opponent (and the CA matters, as opposed to combo or fast tempo where they don't really care about the grind), not to mention that he sets up cascades (which you really want in the lategame).

[Whit3boy316]

Jace is really good. He is one of the "power" cards in the deck, and removing him lowers the overall power level of the deck. I would never cut the last one, and much of the time I play 2. If your metagame has a lot of faster decks you can maybe put him in the sideboard instead, but I wouldn't recommend it.

He is at his best vs Miracles and other midrangey decks where each brainstorm you use past the first one puts you 1 card ahead of your opponent (and the CA matters, as opposed to combo or fast tempo where they don't really care about the grind), not to mention that he sets up cascades (which you really want in the lategame).

Here's is what I typically play against in my meta:
Goblins
Grixis delver
D&T
Infect
Miracles
ANT
Eldrazi

1 of's:
Lands
Dredge
Burn
Sneak and show

My list is what I would consider "the norm" with these exceptions:
0 thoughtseize main
1 toxic deluge main
1 jace main
4 hymn main
3 fow main
4 Ancestral main

I like 4 hymns but I truthfully have no idea if it's good. I debate about -1 ancestral a lot.

[ironclad8690]

Here's is what I typically play against in my meta:
Goblins
Grixis delver
D&T
Infect
Miracles
ANT
Eldrazi

1 of's:
Lands
Dredge
Burn
Sneak and show

My list is what I would consider "the norm" with these exceptions:
0 thoughtseize main
1 toxic deluge main
1 jace main
4 hymn main
3 fow main
4 Ancestral main

I like 4 hymns but I truthfully have no idea if it's good. I debate about -1 ancestral a lot.

4 Hymns does seem high, but with that many Aether Vial decks in your meta it might be worth. Your meta doesn't actually seem that Jace-friendly, aside from Miracles. I might even go up to 2 Toxic Deluge or a maindeck Jitte/Dismember/Disfigure in your meta.

[Whit3boy316]

4 Hymns does seem high, but with that many Aether Vial decks in your meta it might be worth. Your meta doesn't actually seem that Jace-friendly, aside from Miracles. I might even go up to 2 Toxic Deluge or a maindeck Jitte/Dismember/Disfigure in your meta.
I almost always side jace out for more removal or hand hate. Also run a 2nd deluge dB. Dismember intrigues me. Jitte is cool but I'd have to toy with it

[ironclad8690]

I have been getting crushed by blade decks you guys. Bant, Deathblade, Esper Stoneblade, it doesn't matter. They are all beating me way more often than not, with basically any version of this deck (2 thoughtseize, 0 thoughtseize, discardless).

How do you sideboard vs them? In particular:

1) how much discard do you leave in

2) How much hate do you have for the equips?

3) Do you bring in more removal?

4) Do you board out FoW?

I have been bringing out FOW, but I think stopping stoneforge is important enough to leave them in now. plz halp

[MorphBerlin]

@ironclad do you means Esper Deathblad or what deck are you specifically talking about?

[ironclad8690]

@ironclad do you means Esper Deathblad or what deck are you specifically talking about?

All stoneforge mystic decks.

When I leave discard in, it seems like I never have the luxury of having it for the 1 turn SFM allows you to "get" the equipment, or if it is Hymn I never hit the Batterskull.

When I board discard out and play to the board, I draw the wrong narrow answers at the wrong times. They have Deathrite Shaman? I get Golgari Charm. They have TNN? I draw Abrupt Decay.

I have not yet tried leaving Force of Will in the deck. Maybe that is the key? Just Force the SFM/Jace?

I don't know, I have never played Krosan Grip or artifact hate beyond just Pithing Needle and Null Rod, but maybe it is time. Whatever I am doing now just isn't working, blade decks are getting really popular online and I am losing a lot now.

Edit: Most recently I am using the Bazaar of Moxen winning decklist.

[MorphBerlin]

I am not sure I would bring in GCharm here, it seems very narrow unless you saw a lot of TNNs game one. Maybe switch it for another Deluge? Deluge really shined for me in this MU because you can let them spend 2+ turns doing their stuff and then whipe their board clean. The first hit from Battleskull doesn't bother me since we gain life from their StoPs too. Between Hymn,Thoughtseize and FoW I am a litte uncetrain. They all have their merits.

With the BOM winning list I would board like:

+1 S.Library + 1 Clique + 1 Null Rod + 2 Dismember/Disfigure

- 4 FOW -1 Strix (not sure here)

Maybe switch 1-2 Hym for TS?

How are your boarding plans?

[Whit3boy316]

All stoneforge mystic decks.

When I leave discard in, it seems like I never have the luxury of having it for the 1 turn SFM allows you to "get" the equipment, or if it is Hymn I never hit the Batterskull.

When I board discard out and play to the board, I draw the wrong narrow answers at the wrong times. They have Deathrite Shaman? I get Golgari Charm. They have TNN? I draw Abrupt Decay.

I have not yet tried leaving Force of Will in the deck. Maybe that is the key? Just Force the SFM/Jace?

I don't know, I have never played Krosan Grip or artifact hate beyond just Pithing Needle and Null Rod, but maybe it is time. Whatever I am doing now just isn't working, blade decks are getting really popular online and I am losing a lot now.

Edit: Most recently I am using the Bazaar of Moxen winning decklist.
Have you recently changed your beainstorms? I changed arts on mine, now I feel like I lose all the time

[alasfrica]

I have been getting crushed by blade decks you guys. Bant, Deathblade, Esper Stoneblade, it doesn't matter. They are all beating me way more often than not, with basically any version of this deck (2 thoughtseize, 0 thoughtseize, discardless).

How do you sideboard vs them? In particular:

1) how much discard do you leave in

2) How much hate do you have for the equips?

3) Do you bring in more removal?

4) Do you board out FoW?

I have been bringing out FOW, but I think stopping stoneforge is important enough to leave them in now. plz halp
There are a ton of Stoneforge decks in my meta including Death & Taxes, Bant, Maverick, Deadguy and UWR Stoneblade. These are the cards I use in my sideboard for the match ups:

+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Disfigure
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Null Rod
+1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
+1 Sylvan Library

This is what I'll take out
-3 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Baleful Strix
-1 Force of Will
-2 Tarmogoyf

1. I take out Hymns, leave in thoughtseize. Hymn just always feels bad against these decks, but Thoughtseize always seems to pull its weight and let me take a key card. I don't always hold it for the fetched equipment either.

2. I only bring in Null Rod for the equipment. I rely on discarding it if it's a Batterskull but I also have Abrupt Decay to deal with Swords/Jitte.

3. I bring in Disfigure for Stoneforge and whatever other creatures they have based on the build. If they have True-Name I bring in the Golgari Charm+Night of Souls' Betrayal. These also come in against less blue versions since it'll get Mother of Runes and Thalias.

4. I try to never board out all my Forces unless I know they'll be completely useless. Being able to Force a Stoneforge or Jace or anything else when you have no other answer can turn the game around

Sometimes I'll board out more Forces and keep in Hymns on the play.

[ironclad8690]

There are a ton of Stoneforge decks in my meta including Death & Taxes, Bant, Maverick, Deadguy and UWR Stoneblade. These are the cards I use in my sideboard for the match ups:

+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Disfigure
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Null Rod
+1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
+1 Sylvan Library

This is what I'll take out
-3 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Baleful Strix
-1 Force of Will
-2 Tarmogoyf

1. I take out Hymns, leave in thoughtseize. Hymn just always feels bad against these decks, but Thoughtseize always seems to pull its weight and let me take a key card. I don't always hold it for the fetched equipment either.

2. I only bring in Null Rod for the equipment. I rely on discarding it if it's a Batterskull but I also have Abrupt Decay to deal with Swords/Jitte.

3. I bring in Disfigure for Stoneforge and whatever other creatures they have based on the build. If they have True-Name I bring in the Golgari Charm+Night of Souls' Betrayal. These also come in against less blue versions since it'll get Mother of Runes and Thalias.

4. I try to never board out all my Forces unless I know they'll be completely useless. Being able to Force a Stoneforge or Jace or anything else when you have no other answer can turn the game around

Sometimes I'll board out more Forces and keep in Hymns on the play.

Thanks! This is very helpful. I actually just played a very tight match against Webb who was playing an Esper Standstill blade variant, and I realized just how crucial force of will is in the matchup, especially on the draw. I took game 1 to tight play and lucky draws, lost game 2 to an Elspeth which I lost a counter war to (also forgot about the regenerate mode in response to a supreme verdict to protect clique to kill elspeth), but then boarded out the FoW for 2 Hymns and more removal g3 and got there.

I think I will experiment with being the "control deck" more in these matchups, boarding in all answers and cutting some threats.

[Whit3boy316]

There are a ton of Stoneforge decks in my meta including Death & Taxes, Bant, Maverick, Deadguy and UWR Stoneblade. These are the cards I use in my sideboard for the match ups:

+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Disfigure
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Null Rod
+1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
+1 Sylvan Library

This is what I'll take out
-3 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Baleful Strix
-1 Force of Will
-2 Tarmogoyf

1. I take out Hymns, leave in thoughtseize. Hymn just always feels bad against these decks, but Thoughtseize always seems to pull its weight and let me take a key card. I don't always hold it for the fetched equipment either.

2. I only bring in Null Rod for the equipment. I rely on discarding it if it's a Batterskull but I also have Abrupt Decay to deal with Swords/Jitte.

3. I bring in Disfigure for Stoneforge and whatever other creatures they have based on the build. If they have True-Name I bring in the Golgari Charm+Night of Souls' Betrayal. These also come in against less blue versions since it'll get Mother of Runes and Thalias.

4. I try to never board out all my Forces unless I know they'll be completely useless. Being able to Force a Stoneforge or Jace or anything else when you have no other answer can turn the game around

Sometimes I'll board out more Forces and keep in Hymns on the play.
Do you like night of souls betrayal? I love it in modern jund but in legacy I've noticed 4 mana can be a lot against wasteland/Rishadan port decks. I've thought about engineered plague though

[alasfrica]

Thanks! This is very helpful. I actually just played a very tight match against Webb who was playing an Esper Standstill blade variant, and I realized just how crucial force of will is in the matchup, especially on the draw. I took game 1 to tight play and lucky draws, lost game 2 to an Elspeth which I lost a counter war to (also forgot about the regenerate mode in response to a supreme verdict to protect clique to kill elspeth), but then boarded out the FoW for 2 Hymns and more removal g3 and got there.

I think I will experiment with being the "control deck" more in these matchups, boarding in all answers and cutting some threats.

I should have also mentioned that I take out Tarmogoyfs because of Rest in Peace. I feel I'm holding my Abrupt Decays and Maelstrom Pulse for Stoneforges and the equipment that I can't really worry about killing the RiPs. Like you said, you want to become more controlling. You can grind out better than most decks and the long game is where you want to be.

[alasfrica]

Do you like night of souls betrayal? I love it in modern jund but in legacy I've noticed 4 mana can be a lot against wasteland/Rishadan port decks. I've thought about engineered plague though

I've tried Engineered Plague, and sometimes I still run it in BUG Delver. I just think it's too narrow to play. I like Night of Souls' Betrayal because it's hard to remove since it can't be abrupt decayed. For the True-Name matchups its great since they don't usually have many Wastelands or Ports. It seems like a lot against Death and Taxes and Maverick but those matchups should get grindy enough where you'll end up with access to 4 mana. Deathrite Shaman also helps a lot with it costing 4 mana.

[surface33]

@ironclad According to your examples you are just having bad luck. The friend i live with plays D&t and deathblade(i have also played this deck a lot) and I have a lot of experience in the MU. Hymn to tourach is a card you should leave in against this decks like deathblade or stoneblade, also fows are really good, using a fow on a sfm can win you games against this decks, sfm is their main win condition and they can only play 4 so countering 1 gives you the time to build a board presence and once you solve a lili or a good shardless you almost won. Against D&t and maverick is different, vial and wll are enough to justify sidding out fow and hyms, against them i bring:
null rod
desfigure
engineered plague
toxic deludge
golgari charm
sylvan library
thoughtseize
seal of primordium(this card is so good against decks like this or jund that is crazy)

@alasafrica

I am not sure cutting tarmogoyf i s a good idea even agaisnt rip. This decks dont run a lot of removal and you have many ways of destroying rip(in my case 4 abrupt, 1 maelstrom, 1 golgari charm, 1 seal of primordium). Once you get a tarmo 4/5 they have a hard time dealing with. How do you close out a game against d&t without tarmos? manlands, baleful, and shardless agent cant go over their cards and die yo your deludge. Shaman has the same problem to rip.

[grahilah]

Hey all. Wanted to post my current list and results of some recent events. Here's what I'm running currently:

15 Creatures
4x Deathrite
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
3x Baleful Strix

24 Spells
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Brainstorm
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Force of Will

3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtseize

1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Sylvan Library

21 Lands
3x Wasteland
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta

Current sideboard looks like this:

2x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
2x Engineered Plague
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Nature's Claim
1x Garruk Relentless
1x True-Name Nemesis

I recently went 3-1-1 at a Legacy challenge at GP Detroit. I posted a write-up here if anyone is interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/49g7c0/legacy_at_gp_detroit_report_and_match_results/.

Last week, March 24, I played in a local Legacy GPT for GP Columbus and lost three straight matches. Faced against R/G Lands, Aluren combo, and Elves.

Have been playing online with a very similar list, just minus one Liliana, plus one basic swamp, card availability issue. Went 2-3 in my most recent league, beating Burn and Eldrazi, losing to Goblins, Eldrazi, and the mirror.

[ironclad8690]

Hey all. Wanted to post my current list and results of some recent events. Here's what I'm running currently:

15 Creatures
4x Deathrite
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
3x Baleful Strix

24 Spells
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Brainstorm
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Force of Will

3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtseize

1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Sylvan Library

21 Lands
3x Wasteland
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta

Current sideboard looks like this:

2x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
2x Engineered Plague
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Nature's Claim
1x Garruk Relentless
1x True-Name Nemesis

I recently went 3-1-1 at a Legacy challenge at GP Detroit. I posted a write-up here if anyone is interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/49g7c0/legacy_at_gp_detroit_report_and_match_results/.

Last week, March 24, I played in a local Legacy GPT for GP Columbus and lost three straight matches. Faced against R/G Lands, Aluren combo, and Elves.

Have been playing online with a very similar list, just minus one Liliana, plus one basic swamp, card availability issue. Went 2-3 in my most recent league, beating Burn and Eldrazi, losing to Goblins, Eldrazi, and the mirror.

Welcome to the forums! Yes I think I play against you a lot (the mirror). I am Adelorenzi on there.

Nice write up too

[ironclad8690]

I went 4-0 in my weekly local last night, which felt good because it is the last legacy tournament I will have in California before I move to Washington in a couple of weeks.

Round 1: Bye

Round 2: Miracles (2-1)

G1 - I get ahead on both cards and the board as my Shardless Agent cascades into an Ancestral Vision. He tries to Misdirect it to himself, but I have a FoW and another Vision in hand to pitch. After that I landed Liliana or something and cleaned up from there.

G2 - I keep a hand with turn 1 Pithing Needle, but all nonbasics. I have to leave Abrupt Decay mana up in case of Blood Moon, and he lands a 2nd Jace that I cannot deal with (1st was Pulsed). He brainstorms every turn while I draw do nothings and lands, he wins with an entreat.

G3 - I take a somewhat risk line of playing out my Goyf and then playing a Shardless Agent which cascades into another Goyf, then playing a 2nd Shardless Agent which cascades into Hymn. He misdirects that back to me, it hits my last 2 cards in hand: 2 lands. Goyfs are at least 3/4s now, I swing in putting him to 11 or something. He plays a Monastery Mentor and makes a token with SDT, I attack again after drawing a land and he chumps with the token. He lands Jace on his turn and brainstorms, doesn't find the 5th land he needed to Terminus away my over-extended board, and concedes when I attack.

Round 3: Bant Stoneblade (2-1)

I have to say, my results have really improved thanks to your guys' tips in the SFM matchups.

G1 - It is a very back and forth game where we each just win on the spot if we draw the right cards. I don't end up finding the cards I need with him at 1 (1 turn I attack with baleful strix for lethal, he Cliques and blocks, if I draw a land 1 turn while his wasteland is tapped I can swing in with the Tar Pit, etc). And his True-Name puts me to 6, then 3, then dead.

G2 - I mull to 6, keep a good hand of disfigure, lands, shardless agent and brainstorm, scry shardless agent to the top. I disfigure his turn 1 dork, and that throws him off for a while while I cascade into decay and then golgari charm on an empty board, FeelsBadMan. It turns into a little bit of a grind, but eventually an Ancestral Vision resolves and I find pretty much everything I need to deal with his board.

G3 - My turn 1 dismember on the draw gets dazed. I feel pretty behind after this, but I am able to resolve a visions eventually after FoWing a Knight and a Clique. FoW did some serious work in these post board games, I am glad I cut Hymn and the Strixes instead. I have some really good cascades, get a Liliana on the board, and overwhlem him with Tarmobeats.

Round 4: Zombardment (2-0)

G1 - These games are kind of fuzzy, but I basically felt like I was playing circles around his clunky draws with Brainstorm and Jace. I got so ahead on cards it wasn't even funny, and my Deathrite Shamans did what I needed them to do. I FoW basically all the important stuff like Goblin Bombardment and draw decays at all the right times, Tidehollow Sculler doesn't really have an impact.

G2 - Mull to 5, but I curve Vision suspend into DRS into turn 3 Jace (can't complain about that one), and I basically win from there with massive card advantage from Shardless Agents and Jace Brainstorms to find all the removal I need for Pithing Needle naming Jace and his small zombie army.


I went back to my old list of 3 Strix 2 Hymn 0 Thoughtseize 3 Wasteland 1 Creeping Tar pit for this tournament, and the only thing I really missed was Tar Pit #2. I think 2 Tar Pit 3 Wasteland is kind of greedy, but I might switch to that for extra help in the race matchups.