[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[Arsenal]

Interesting that you keep in FoW postboard vs. fair stuff like Stoneblade. As a general rule, I dislike having FoW postboard vs. grindy, fair stuff (unless there absolutely isn't anything better in the SB) as the card disadvantage in a grinder can be a death sentence.

[ironclad8690]

Interesting that you keep in FoW postboard vs. fair stuff like Stoneblade. As a general rule, I dislike having FoW postboard vs. grindy, fair stuff (unless there absolutely isn't anything better in the SB) as the card disadvantage in a grinder can be a death sentence.

Playing with most decks I agree, but Shardless has the unique advantage of being so much better at drawing cards than other decks. Our FoW doesn't hurt nearly as bad as Delver or something that has no way to get ahead on cards. Bant is also unique in that things can spiral out of control much faster than most stoneblade decks. For this reason I approach it like a tempo deck, trying to answer every threat it presents on board or on the stack.

It could just be my playstyle, but dealing with their threats on the stack or with removal feels so much better than discard. The discard has a smaller window than FoW to be effective.

[Arsenal]

Playing with most decks I agree, but Shardless has the unique advantage of being so much better at drawing cards than other decks. Our FoW doesn't hurt nearly as bad as Delver or something that has no way to get ahead on cards. Bant is also unique in that things can spiral out of control much faster than most stoneblade decks. For this reason I approach it like a tempo deck, trying to answer every threat it presents on board or on the stack.

It could just be my playstyle, but dealing with their threats on the stack or with removal feels so much better than discard. The discard has a smaller window than FoW to be effective.

In the long, grindy matchups that primarily revolve around dudes, I tend to eschew discard and counters (in that order) in favor of overloading on removal. Spot and mass (disfigure, deluge, night of soul betrayal, m pulse, etc) is what I'm generally looking to board in. If I don't have anything else, I'll leave in 2 FoW, then work backwards depending on how much removal I'm boarding in.

[surface33]

In the long, grindy matchups that primarily revolve around dudes, I tend to eschew discard and counters (in that order) in favor of overloading on removal. Spot and mass (disfigure, deluge, night of soul betrayal, m pulse, etc) is what I'm generally looking to board in. If I don't have anything else, I'll leave in 2 FoW, then work backwards depending on how much removal I'm boarding in.

If you side out discard and counters how do you deal with cards like jtms or other similar threats that dont die to removal? I wouldnt side out hymns against blades lists, the amount of games where casting two hymns wins you this matches is enough in y opinion.

[btm10]

In the long, grindy matchups that primarily revolve around dudes, I tend to eschew discard and counters (in that order) in favor of overloading on removal. Spot and mass (disfigure, deluge, night of soul betrayal, m pulse, etc) is what I'm generally looking to board in. If I don't have anything else, I'll leave in 2 FoW, then work backwards depending on how much removal I'm boarding in.

I definitely subscribe to the same general school, but I prefer to leave in discard rather than Force against Blade decks. I definitely want to be as proactive and efficient (in terms of mana and cards) as possible, and holding up 3UU or not playing another spell is almost always worse than whatever you'd be using Force to stop. The discard is only dead the opponent is topdecking, and we're favored from that point anyway.

[ironclad8690]

This is an argument as old as time itself. All I know is that since I started cutting Hymns and leaving Thoughtseize in the board vs SFM decks I have been winning most if not all of my matches against them.

In fact, I think Lejay's version has the best game against blade decks in general because it is basically pre-boarded (0 strixes/discard, more planeswalkers/sweepers).

I am not sure who is "right", all I can speak from is personal results against who I consider to be talented opponents.

[LarsLeif]

I definitely subscribe to the same general school, but I prefer to leave in discard rather than Force against Blade decks. I definitely want to be as proactive and efficient (in terms of mana and cards) as possible, and holding up 3UU or not playing another spell is almost always worse than whatever you'd be using Force to stop. The discard is only dead the opponent is topdecking, and we're favored from that point anyway.

I agree with this mostly, Jace isn't as bad for us coming from blade decks as we don't have to play around terminus and can flood the board with critters, making the impact of a Jace-bounce less troublesome. I also like some amount (not too much) discard against blade as it neatly answers SfM. I would definitely rethink force if the style of blade deck is a more U/W-oriented one with sweepers like verdict.

I don't like siding in that much spot-removal against blade decks though as most (or all) of their creature are 2-for-1s (SfM, Snappy, Clique) or just doesn't care like TNN. More general answers like Liliana, Toxic Deluge and NoSB are better.

That is how I approach the matchup anyway, I play the Lejay version and yes, the matchup is very favorable. :)

[ironclad8690]

4-1 in a league today with Lejay build.

Death and Taxes: 2-1
Death and Taxes: 2-0
Mirror: 2-0
Maverick: 1-2 (won g1 because I saw a Deluge, lost the next 2 because I couldn't find deluge and he had mom openings followed by Thalias).
Grixis Delver: 2-0

I am really feeling this version much more than the previous builds with Hymns and such. The 5 planeswalkers make it feel impossible to lose to slow decks, and the sideboarding is easier in general. The only thing I am iffy on is the Swords to Plowshares in the sideboard, it just feels a bit too greedy. I might replace with a Dismember or Disfigure.

[btm10]

4-1 in a league today with Lejay build.

Death and Taxes: 2-1
Death and Taxes: 2-0
Mirror: 2-0
Maverick: 1-2 (won g1 because I saw a Deluge, lost the next 2 because I couldn't find deluge and he had mom openings followed by Thalias).
Grixis Delver: 2-0

I am really feeling this version much more than the previous builds with Hymns and such. The 5 planeswalkers make it feel impossible to lose to slow decks, and the sideboarding is easier in general. The only thing I am iffy on is the Swords to Plowshares in the sideboard, it just feels a bit too greedy. I might replace with a Dismember or Disfigure.

I think that Swords is definitely greedy right now, and it's a one CMC spell to boot. Disfigure or Go for the Throat seems better. I'm hesitant to go Strixless since there's still lots of Eldrazi around and it's the best card against basically all Delver variants. I wouldn't turn up my nose at extra Planeswalkers, but I'm hesitant to cut discard because I think that Sneak and Show is probably being underplayed relative to how good "combo deck that can minimize Chalice and Counterbalance and run Blood Moon" looks against the field.

[ironclad8690]

Yeah, I have actaully been losing to Eldrazi now that I am Strixless and Hymnless. One thing I didn't really think about before switching versions is that Goyf is usually a 5/6 because there is a sorcery in addition to artifact. Without the discard you lose your sorcery for the gy to make goyf big enough to stop their dudes. Also Toxic Deluge gets blown out by Warping Wail, which feels REALLY bad after paying 5 life.

[CutthroatCasual]

Strix is the best answer to Eldrazi, though. Draws you 2 in addition to killing a TKS or eats a 6/6 Endless One.

[MorphBerlin]

4-1 in a league today with Lejay build.

Death and Taxes: 2-1
Death and Taxes: 2-0
Mirror: 2-0
Maverick: 1-2 (won g1 because I saw a Deluge, lost the next 2 because I couldn't find deluge and he had mom openings followed by Thalias).
Grixis Delver: 2-0

I am really feeling this version much more than the previous builds with Hymns and such. The 5 planeswalkers make it feel impossible to lose to slow decks, and the sideboarding is easier in general. The only thing I am iffy on is the Swords to Plowshares in the sideboard, it just feels a bit too greedy. I might replace with a Dismember or Disfigure.

Well when saying you feel this version, you should take into account that you went against decks that this version is build for (exept G Delver maybe). What about Eladrazi, ANT and so on. This deck seems to be positioned worse to me than a version with discard main.

The one StoP seems really greedy. Against delver or DnT you want to fetch a Savannah just to cast your 1 SB card? Either there should be more then 1 or none in my opinion.

[btm10]

Yeah, I have actaully been losing to Eldrazi now that I am Strixless and Hymnless. One thing I didn't really think about before switching versions is that Goyf is usually a 5/6 because there is a sorcery in addition to artifact. Without the discard you lose your sorcery for the gy to make goyf big enough to stop their dudes. Also Toxic Deluge gets blown out by Warping Wail, which feels REALLY bad after paying 5 life.

Yeah, the thing that pushed me over the edge on MD discard (rather than Lejay + Strix) for my last tournament was that I wanted more Sorceries. The 5/6 body has become a lot more relevant (which also lends additional attraction to Sylvan Library and Bitterblossom). Getting Deluge countered is the actual worst.

[grahilah]

Went 2-3 again in yesterday's league.

2-1 in a close, grindy match versus the mirror.
0-2 to Goblins. Difficult matchup, didn't see sideboard cards that may have helped. Was ahead on board game 2, but Krenko took over in the late game.
0-2 to Doomsday. Lost a close game 1 after he found a Doomsday off the top when I had him dead on board the next turn. Game two he had zero cards by the third turn due to my discard, but never found a threat until turn 12.
2-1 versus Stoneblade. Lost to T2 SFM, T3 Batterskull in game 1. I double Wastelanded him out of the game in the second game. Third game saw me with T2 Goyf, T3 True-Name Nemesis, and he couldn't race me with Lingering Souls tokens and Snapcaster Mage.
1-2 in a close, grindy match versus the mirror.

Been playing the deck for four months and I still make a lot of mistakes. Not always clear about trying to jam Deathrite Shaman into 3-drop or leading with discard and playing Hymn or Goyf on turn 2. Lost a couple games due to fetching the wrong sources. Versus decks with Wastelands it's always a difficult choice to make whether to fetch basics and risk not being able to cast your double-black or double-blue spells, or just getting Wastelanded out of the game.

[btm10]

Went 2-3 again in yesterday's league.

2-1 in a close, grindy match versus the mirror.
0-2 to Goblins. Difficult matchup, didn't see sideboard cards that may have helped. Was ahead on board game 2, but Krenko took over in the late game.
0-2 to Doomsday. Lost a close game 1 after he found a Doomsday off the top when I had him dead on board the next turn. Game two he had zero cards by the third turn due to my discard, but never found a threat until turn 12.
2-1 versus Stoneblade. Lost to T2 SFM, T3 Batterskull in game 1. I double Wastelanded him out of the game in the second game. Third game saw me with T2 Goyf, T3 True-Name Nemesis, and he couldn't race me with Lingering Souls tokens and Snapcaster Mage.
1-2 in a close, grindy match versus the mirror.

Been playing the deck for four months and I still make a lot of mistakes. Not always clear about trying to jam Deathrite Shaman into 3-drop or leading with discard and playing Hymn or Goyf on turn 2. Lost a couple games due to fetching the wrong sources. Versus decks with Wastelands it's always a difficult choice to make whether to fetch basics and risk not being able to cast your double-black or double-blue spells, or just getting Wastelanded out of the game.

I generally like to clear the way with discard or have Force backup for high-impact spells like Liliana, assuming I'm playing against counter magic out of a non-combo deck. Otherwise it's board-state dependent. Fetching is going to take practice, but make sure that your fetches are optimally configured to accommodate your manabase. I've bit by my 4/4/1 Catacombs/Delta/Misty split more than once, so I've made a conscious effort to play the second Misty over the fourth Delta. The judgement call on basics vs. duals is very dependent on the board state and your hand. You want to sit on fetches as long as possible, obviously, but you also want to be able to play your spells on time. There's no hard and fast rule, but I'd err toward fetching duals whenever possible. We aren't splashing a third color like Miracles and Esper do - this is a real 3 color deck, and you need them all most of the time. I tend to fetch Sea, Bayou, Trop in that order and sometimes a second Sea before finding the Swamp and Forest. If you're on a list like Lejay's you can operate pretty well off of Sea, Forest, Swamp since the colored requirements aren't quite as stringent.

[grahilah]

I generally like to clear the way with discard or have Force backup for high-impact spells like Liliana, assuming I'm playing against counter magic out of a non-combo deck. Otherwise it's board-state dependent. Fetching is going to take practice, but make sure that your fetches are optimally configured to accommodate your manabase. I've bit by my 4/4/1 Catacombs/Delta/Misty split more than once, so I've made a conscious effort to play the second Misty over the fourth Delta. The judgement call on basics vs. duals is very dependent on the board state and your hand. You want to sit on fetches as long as possible, obviously, but you also want to be able to play your spells on time. There's no hard and fast rule, but I'd err toward fetching duals whenever possible. We aren't splashing a third color like Miracles and Esper do - this is a real 3 color deck, and you need them all most of the time. I tend to fetch Sea, Bayou, Trop in that order and sometimes a second Sea before finding the Swamp and Forest. If you're on a list like Lejay's you can operate pretty well off of Sea, Forest, Swamp since the colored requirements aren't quite as stringent.

Thanks, I appreciate the advice. I do tend to fetch in the order you suggest, but occasionally just get blown out by double wasteland. Sometimes it can't be helped. Wasteland is a good Magic card!

[ironclad8690]

Some hands force you to get nonbasics early and you can get wrecked that way for sure.

I played in 3 leagues today (I am rallying because I am moving soon and probably wont be able to play at all for a while).

First league results: 2-3

ANT: 2-0
Miracles: 2-1
Eldrazi: 0-2
Shardless: 1-2
Eldrazi: 1-2

At this point I was really missing Strix and really hating Swords to Plowshares in the sideboard, so I moved 2 Baleful main instead of Sylvan and Ponder, cut Duress and STP from sideboard, and replaced with Disfigure and Sylvan Library

Second league results: 1-4

Shardless: 1-2
ANT: 1-2
Miracles: 2-1
Miracles: 1-2
Infect: 1-2

Third league results: 4-1

Grixis Delver: 2-0
TES: 0-2
Grixis Delver: 2-0
Food Griffin: 2-1
Miracles: 2-1

I have a question for you guys, vs Storm how many outs to Empty the Warrens do you guys have? I usually board out 1 Toxic Deluge leaving me with 2 outs, but I don't know if that is correct.

[btm10]

I have a question for you guys, vs Storm how many outs to Empty the Warrens do you guys have? I usually board out 1 Toxic Deluge leaving me with 2 outs, but I don't know if that is correct.

It depends on what they show you game 1. I always have some answers to Empty (oher than blocking), but when I see clear signs that they're likely to have it g2 I tend to pack lots of answers to it. So typically it's:

-4 Decay
-2 Strix
-1 Goyf
-1 Forest
-1 Tar Pit

+2 Grave hate
+2 Duress
+2 Deluge (or 1 Deluge, 1 Golgari Charm)
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Null Rod
+1 Flex (might be 3rd piece of GY hate, might be additional discard, might be Clique)

note that Maelstrom Pulse stays in.

Good luck with the move. What are you moving for?

[ironclad8690]

To be close to my wife's family, and to get a change of pace/cheaper housing. It doesn't hurt that the legacy scene is thriving XD

[funkymankevx]

I've seen a sideboard guide for the Meddling Mage sideboard previously, but for some reason can't seem to find it now. Does anyone happen to have a link for this?

I'm pretty new to the deck coming from BUG Delver and have been trying the BoM winning list http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19740&iddeck=150305. Recently I've found I've been having trouble with infect and lands locally. If anyone as suggestions here they would be appreciated.

Next week I'm planning on changing my sideboard as so:
- 1 Baleful Strix
- 1 Dismember

+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Submerge.

[ironclad8690]

2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ancestral Vision

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disfigure
1 Submerge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Scrubland
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique


Here is how I would board vs some popular decks (in order of popularity on MTGGoldfish):

Miracles:

IN: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 1 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Deathrite Shaman

Eldrazi:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle
OUT: 4 Force of Will

Shardless Mirror

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Submerge
OUT: 4 Force of Will

Grixis Delver:

IN: 1 Goglari Charm, 1 Disfigure, 1 Scrubland, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 3 Hymn to Tourach

BUG Delver (Hymn version):

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Submerge, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 4 Force of Will

BUG Delver (Stifle):

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Submerge, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Golgari Charm (if Dark Confidant/TNN), 1 Scrubland, 1 Vendilion Clique
Out: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2 Ancestral Vision

Burn:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 1 Toxic Deluge

Death and Taxes:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Scrubland, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod, 2 Thoughtseize
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 4 Force of Will, 1 Tarmogoyf

Lands (RG Combo):

IN: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Submerge, 3 Meddling Mage, 1 Scrubland, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 2 Abrupt Decay, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Maelstrom Pulse

Bant Stoneblade:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Submerge, 1 Sylvan Library
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Tarmogoyf, 1 Ancestral Vision

Deathblade:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Sylvan Library
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Tarmogoyf

ANT:

IN: 1 Scrubland, 3 Meddling Mage, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Null Rod, 2 Thoughtseize
OUT: 1 Creeping Tar Pit, 4 Tarmogoyf, 2 Baleful Strix, 4 Abrupt Decay

Dredge:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Null Rod, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Surgical Extraction
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Reanimator:

IN: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Scrubland, 3 Meddling Mage, 1 Surgical Extraction, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 2 Tarmogoyf, 4 Abrupt Decay, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Creeping Tar Pit

Infect:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Submerge, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 2 Tarmogoyf, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Ancestral Vision

Elves:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Submerge, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Scrubland, 3 Meddling Mage
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2 Tarmogoyf, 1 Creeping Tar Pit

Let me know if you are interested in any other matchups. Some people prefer to leave Hymn to Tourachs in the fair matchups like Blade/Bant and instead board out some number of Force of Will. Also, some people like Meddling Mage vs Dredge, but I think naming Cabal Therapy or Dread Return is too cute. Also, some people leave some number of Hymn to Tourach in vs Reanimator, but I am not a fan.

At the end of the day, trust your intuition. This is how I would board, but there are actually many different ways of sideboarding with this deck and as long as you have a good reason to leave in/take out/board in a card go with your gut.

[funkymankevx]

2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ancestral Vision

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disfigure
1 Submerge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Scrubland
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique


Here is how I would board vs some popular decks (in order of popularity on MTGGoldfish):

Miracles:

IN: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 1 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Deathrite Shaman

Eldrazi:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle
OUT: 4 Force of Will

Shardless Mirror

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Submerge
OUT: 4 Force of Will

Grixis Delver:

IN: 1 Goglari Charm, 1 Disfigure, 1 Scrubland, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 3 Hymn to Tourach

BUG Delver (Hymn version):

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Submerge, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 4 Force of Will

BUG Delver (Stifle):

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Submerge, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Golgari Charm (if Dark Confidant/TNN), 1 Scrubland, 1 Vendilion Clique
Out: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2 Ancestral Vision

Burn:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 1 Toxic Deluge

Death and Taxes:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Scrubland, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod, 2 Thoughtseize
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 4 Force of Will, 1 Tarmogoyf

Lands (RG Combo):

IN: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Submerge, 3 Meddling Mage, 1 Scrubland, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 2 Abrupt Decay, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Maelstrom Pulse

Bant Stoneblade:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Submerge, 1 Sylvan Library
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Tarmogoyf, 1 Ancestral Vision

Deathblade:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Sylvan Library
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Tarmogoyf

ANT:

IN: 1 Scrubland, 3 Meddling Mage, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Null Rod, 2 Thoughtseize
OUT: 1 Creeping Tar Pit, 4 Tarmogoyf, 2 Baleful Strix, 4 Abrupt Decay

Dredge:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Null Rod, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Surgical Extraction
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Reanimator:

IN: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Scrubland, 3 Meddling Mage, 1 Surgical Extraction, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 2 Tarmogoyf, 4 Abrupt Decay, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Creeping Tar Pit

Infect:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Submerge, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 2 Tarmogoyf, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Ancestral Vision

Elves:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Submerge, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Scrubland, 3 Meddling Mage
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2 Tarmogoyf, 1 Creeping Tar Pit

Let me know if you are interested in any other matchups. Some people prefer to leave Hymn to Tourachs in the fair matchups like Blade/Bant and instead board out some number of Force of Will instead. Also, some people like Meddling Mage vs Dredge, but I think naming Cabal Therapy or Dread Return is too cute. Also, some people leave some number of Hymn to Tourach in vs Reanimator, but I am not a fan.

At the end of the day, trust your intuition. This is how I would board, but there are actually many different ways of sideboarding with this deck and as long as you have a good reason to leave in/take out/board in a card go with your gut.


Oh wow, thank you very much. That was a lot more in depth than I was expecting and better than the previous guide I had seen.

[ironclad8690]

You're welcome! Gotta look out for our own ;)

[Jaytron]

Does anyone else board out decays vs Reanimator? Are we concerned if our DRS gets needled? DRS feels like such a silver bullet, that you want to keep it working.

[ironclad8690]

Does anyone else board out decays vs Reanimator? Are we concerned if our DRS gets needled? DRS feels like such a silver bullet, that you want to keep it working.

You could leave 2 decays for the last 2 goyfs

[Whit3boy316]

You're welcome! Gotta look out for our own ;)

I noticed you board out a couple goyfs in certain matches ex. Infect. Why is it you board out your strongest beater?

[ironclad8690]

I noticed you board out a couple goyfs in certain matches ex. Infect. Why is it you board out your strongest beater?

The matches I bring it out in are less about establishing a strong board presence and more about controlling the stack/the opponent's hand/the opponents creatures. Playing 4 Tarmogoyf is unnecessary if you don't think any of them will die.

Gerry Thompson goes as far as board all 4 out in some matchups, and he doesn't even play the Meddling Mage sideboard (MM sideboard is important for keeping threat density and FoW blue count high enough in post board games).

[MorphBerlin]

How do you like the idea of boarding in Meddling Mages against Decks that have exclusivly StoP as a removal spell? Like Bant or Esper Stonblade maybe? I have tried it a couple of times in MU where I thought Strix was bad and I still wanted to keep the blue count up. Depending on your build I can also see it against Miracles and name Terminus, so that they have to use 2 cards to wipe your board.

[ironclad8690]

How do you like the idea of boarding in Meddling Mages against Decks that have exclusivly StoP as a removal spell? Like Bant or Esper Stonblade maybe? I have tried it a couple of times in MU where I thought Strix was bad and I still wanted to keep the blue count up. Depending on your build I can also see it against Miracles and name Terminus, so that they have to use 2 cards to wipe your board.

I could totally see doing that. I sometimes worry about adding the 4th color vs Miracles because of their Blood Moon plan, but maybe it isn't so bad after all.

[btm10]

I could totally see doing that. I sometimes worry about adding the 4th color vs Miracles because of their Blood Moon plan, but maybe it isn't so bad after all.

I board out a Wasteland and a Trop against them, so I did this sometimes when I was on the Meddling Mage plan. Terminus is the better name since you want to be running creatures out anyway, and then they're forced to either use Snapcaster Mage inside of combat (when he's least effective), or 1-for-1 you when you have multiple creatures out. I think it's strongest if you're willing to take a fairly aggressive stance, so boarding -1 Trop (or Bayou), -1 Wasteland, -2 Strix, +3 Meddling Mage, +1 Savannah/Scrubland (in addition to your other sideboarding).


To be close to my wife's family, and to get a change of pace/cheaper housing. It doesn't hurt that the legacy scene is thriving XD

That's how I ended up in Philly. Good luck with the move!

[funkymankevx]

When I'm bringing in Meddling Mage against elves what are my priority cards to name? I'm guessing my order of priority would be something like Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature, GSZ? Or am I not that worried about Glimpse?

[surface33]

Just wanted t make some comments on @ironclad advice regarding side boarding, the main reason I disagree is on leaving AV in most of the combo or aggro MUs:

- Against miracles I would leave all the hyms, its one of the best cards we have against them and can win you games. I used to play miracles and is with disadvantage how you lose.

-Eldrazi, im not sure if jitte is enough to justify the null rod inclusion.

-Against BUG delver siding out fow is the most common approach. However, @Goddik, a good player (top 16 at gp and 2 at bom) mentions in the bug delver thread that he would rather leave fows to counter deathrite if he played shardless so I will take his advice seriously.

-Against D&t I would rather leave jtms and not bring vendilion, jace helps against the only card in the deck that can win the game on its own and playing with vendilion against a deck that plays 4-3 karakas main can be tricky.

-ANT, i like what you bring in but I dont think siding out tarmo is a good idea, its the best way to close the game, I would rather side out AV. Do you really get to cast AV against all this combo MU? I think they are too slow.

-Reanimator and elves,the same as before, they are combo decks and AV is probably too slow against them, specially elves where hymn can be a really powerfull card.

-infect, despite being to slow maelstrom is a removal and in my opinion should stay main over the AV


Overall I think AV is a great card but is just justified against grinding decks. Against fast aggro and fast combo decks it can only be good cascaded with shardless. This is my opinion and if people leave is probably because they have good results.

[MorphBerlin]

[cards]

Miracles:

IN: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 1 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Deathrite Shaman

Eldrazi:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle
OUT: 4 Force of Will



I am also sceptical of taking out hymn and DRS against Miracles, DRS is so good versus their Snapcaster plan and Hymn is often really devastating if they don't have Spell pierce or are tapped out. Unfortunately I don't have any other recommendations in your list :) Maybe 1 Lili, 1 Wasteland

What do you need the Null Rod for against Eldrazi? Taking out Force seems risky to me as a well timed force on TKS, Smasher on Endbringer can win the game.

[Whit3boy316]

Went to a local even with about 18 people.
Had my worst showing ever (getting over head cold may also contribute)
Went 1-2-1
Round 1: high tide - I've never played against it but both games I get him to about 6 then he combos off during my combat. 0-2
Round 2: miracles - head cold went into over drive and couldn't think. Eventually went to tI me in game 3. 0-0-1
Round 3: bye -finally got my win haha
Round 4: ANT - game one I Humm him to 1 card. He play sensies top and eventually gets what he needs. Game 2 I had turn 1 pithing on LED didn't matter. He still got me. 0-2

All in all I was very sad. I haven't been having the best of luck lately which has caused me to ponder the idea of going to punching jund. Then at least I can beat the infect guy I play with

[MorphBerlin]

Went to a local even with about 18 people.
Had my worst showing ever (getting over head cold may also contribute)
Went 1-2-1
Round 1: high tide - I've never played against it but both games I get him to about 6 then he combos off during my combat. 0-2
Round 2: miracles - head cold went into over drive and couldn't think. Eventually went to tI me in game 3. 0-0-1
Round 3: bye -finally got my win haha
Round 4: ANT - game one I Humm him to 1 card. He play sensies top and eventually gets what he needs. Game 2 I had turn 1 pithing on LED didn't matter. He still got me. 0-2

All in all I was very sad. I haven't been having the best of luck lately which has caused me to ponder the idea of going to punching jund. Then at least I can beat the infect guy I play with

Needle on LED does indeed not matter at any time as he can still use it to create mana (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/289928-does-pithing-needle-lock-led).

[ironclad8690]

When I'm bringing in Meddling Mage against elves what are my priority cards to name? I'm guessing my order of priority would be something like Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature, GSZ? Or am I not that worried about Glimpse?

If you have him low on creatures (especially if you have a Liliana with counters), name Glimpse of Nature. If he has a couple of creatures on board and you are lacking countermagic, name Natural Order. If you have a Grafdigger's Cage it can be worth it to name Abrupt Decay or Craterhoof Behemoth (depending on how much mana they have).


Just wanted t make some comments on @ironclad advice regarding side boarding, the main reason I disagree is on leaving AV in most of the combo or aggro MUs:

- Against miracles I would leave all the hyms, its one of the best cards we have against them and can win you games. I used to play miracles and is with disadvantage how you lose.

-Eldrazi, im not sure if jitte is enough to justify the null rod inclusion.

-Against BUG delver siding out fow is the most common approach. However, @Goddik, a good player (top 16 at gp and 2 at bom) mentions in the bug delver thread that he would rather leave fows to counter deathrite if he played shardless so I will take his advice seriously.

-Against D&t I would rather leave jtms and not bring vendilion, jace helps against the only card in the deck that can win the game on its own and playing with vendilion against a deck that plays 4-3 karakas main can be tricky.

-ANT, i like what you bring in but I dont think siding out tarmo is a good idea, its the best way to close the game, I would rather side out AV. Do you really get to cast AV against all this combo MU? I think they are too slow.

-Reanimator and elves,the same as before, they are combo decks and AV is probably too slow against them, specially elves where hymn can be a really powerfull card.

-infect, despite being to slow maelstrom is a removal and in my opinion should stay main over the AV


Overall I think AV is a great card but is just justified against grinding decks. Against fast aggro and fast combo decks it can only be good cascaded with shardless. This is my opinion and if people leave is probably because they have good results.

The main reason I leave Ancestral Vision in is to keep my blue count as high as possible for FoW. I will often not even suspend them in case I draw into a Force of Will. Having less than 18 U cards is super less than ideal, and I try to even increase from that number (that is why I cut things that aren't blue in combo matchups).

I board out 1 Hymn to Tourach vs Miracles because 3 feels too high to me, Hymn is very good but there are times when you will draw it and they are playing off the top and it is just dead. That is just my personal choice, it doesn't work for everyone.

Eldrazi lists have been popping up with Jitte, Ratchet Bomb, Basilisk Collar, Helm+Leyline combo in sideboard. I would rather have a card that proactively answers Jitte than a FoW because it seems like they always have Cavern and you want to use wastelands on Eye and Temple.

BUG Delver I could see leaving FOW, in fact against any deck "faster" than us I could see it. The way I see it tough, all the blue cards in the deck that aren't FOW I would rather cast than exile. This is oddly not true for me in the blade matchups.

Yeah, Clique might not be worth it vs D&T, it has been good for me as a flier that can trade with a Serra Avenger & Flickerwisp or in response to Stoneforge activation, but the Karakas do sort of make it suck. Usually they don't leave up Karakas for combat phase vs us.

I think tapping out for Tarmogoyfs is not something you want to be doing more than 1 time in any given ANT game, and Meddling Mage doubles as a threat AND disruption in this style of list. Just my opinion. ANT and Reanimator I leave AV to keep U count high.

Maelstrom Pulse might be worth it to leave in against Infect, 3 mana sorcery speed can be too slow though.


I am also sceptical of taking out hymn and DRS against Miracles, DRS is so good versus their Snapcaster plan and Hymn is often really devastating if they don't have Spell pierce or are tapped out. Unfortunately I don't have any other recommendations in your list :) Maybe 1 Lili, 1 Wasteland

What do you need the Null Rod for against Eldrazi? Taking out Force seems risky to me as a well timed force on TKS, Smasher on Endbringer can win the game.

They usually bring in Ratchet Bomb, between that and Jitte I like to turn them off. I find they have Cavern pretty reliably, but siding out Force may be incorrect. You definitely want the Hymns though, they don't get to cast Reality Smasher before you Hymn them in most cases. Everytime a Reality Smasher gets Hymned out of an Eldrazi player's hand, an angel gets it's wings.

[surface33]

The main reason I leave Ancestral Vision in is to keep my blue count as high as possible for FoW. I will often not even suspend them in case I draw into a Force of Will. Having less than 18 U cards is super less than ideal, and I try to even increase from that number (that is why I cut things that aren't blue in combo matchups).

I board out 1 Hymn to Tourach vs Miracles because 3 feels too high to me, Hymn is very good but there are times when you will draw it and they are playing off the top and it is just dead. That is just my personal choice, it doesn't work for everyone.

Eldrazi lists have been popping up with Jitte, Ratchet Bomb, Basilisk Collar, Helm+Leyline combo in sideboard. I would rather have a card that proactively answers Jitte than a FoW because it seems like they always have Cavern and you want to use wastelands on Eye and Temple.

BUG Delver I could see leaving FOW, in fact against any deck "faster" than us I could see it. The way I see it tough, all the blue cards in the deck that aren't FOW I would rather cast than exile. This is oddly not true for me in the blade matchups.

Yeah, Clique might not be worth it vs D&T, it has been good for me as a flier that can trade with a Serra Avenger & Flickerwisp or in response to Stoneforge activation, but the Karakas do sort of make it suck. Usually they don't leave up Karakas for combat phase vs us.

I think tapping out for Tarmogoyfs is not something you want to be doing more than 1 time in any given ANT game, and Meddling Mage doubles as a threat AND disruption in this style of list. Just my opinion. ANT and Reanimator I leave AV to keep U count high.

Maelstrom Pulse might be worth it to leave in against Infect, 3 mana sorcery speed can be too slow though.





I think you make valid points, I just wanted to give another angle on sideboarding. I would strongly recommend leaving all the hymns against miracles tho

Also what do you guys think of dead weight? I am 99% sure its worst than desfigure in general, but it seems much better when you cascade into it, it increases goyf account by two and its not a a dead card when the opponent has creatures with +2 resistance. The instant speed might be too important, I dont know.

[ironclad8690]

I like your angles too :)

Went 5-0 last night!

UR Painter 2-0
Belcher 2-0
BUG Control (TNN Strix) 2-0
Eldrazi 2-0 (stabilized at 4 life g1 and 3 life g2)
Deadguy Ale 2-1 (was sweating after g1 loss but 5 for 1 toxic deluge in g3 was the turning point)

[CutthroatCasual]

The most expensive deck in Legacy just got more expensive. Congrats!

[surface33]

The most expensive deck in Legacy just got more expensive. Congrats!

I was so lucky finally picking up my foil AVs last week, now i have 8 of them

Any thoughts on dead weight?

[Whitefaces]

Any thoughts on dead weight?

Don't play it? I realise it grows goyf, but just play Disfigure instead if you want this effect, being an instant is leagues ahead of +1+1 for the goofs.

[MorphBerlin]

I was so lucky finally picking up my foil AVs last week, now i have 8 of them

Any thoughts on dead weight?

I passed on an eng foil for 50$ and jap foil for 95$ in the last weeks, that would have been number 3 and 4. Pretty dissapointed now :(

But lets see where the price will settle after the hype, funny how many people were obviously holding back their visions when you look at the mcm offerings

[funkymankevx]

2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ancestral Vision

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disfigure
1 Submerge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Scrubland
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique


Here is how I would board vs some popular decks (in order of popularity on MTGGoldfish):

Miracles:

IN: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 1 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Deathrite Shaman

Eldrazi:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle
OUT: 4 Force of Will

Shardless Mirror

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Submerge
OUT: 4 Force of Will

Grixis Delver:

IN: 1 Goglari Charm, 1 Disfigure, 1 Scrubland, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 3 Hymn to Tourach

BUG Delver (Hymn version):

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Submerge, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 4 Force of Will

BUG Delver (Stifle):

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Submerge, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Golgari Charm (if Dark Confidant/TNN), 1 Scrubland, 1 Vendilion Clique
Out: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2 Ancestral Vision

Burn:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 1 Toxic Deluge

Death and Taxes:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Scrubland, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod, 2 Thoughtseize
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 4 Force of Will, 1 Tarmogoyf

Lands (RG Combo):

IN: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Submerge, 3 Meddling Mage, 1 Scrubland, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 2 Abrupt Decay, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Maelstrom Pulse

Bant Stoneblade:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Submerge, 1 Sylvan Library
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Tarmogoyf, 1 Ancestral Vision

Deathblade:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Sylvan Library
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Tarmogoyf

ANT:

IN: 1 Scrubland, 3 Meddling Mage, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Null Rod, 2 Thoughtseize
OUT: 1 Creeping Tar Pit, 4 Tarmogoyf, 2 Baleful Strix, 4 Abrupt Decay

Dredge:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Null Rod, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Surgical Extraction
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Reanimator:

IN: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Scrubland, 3 Meddling Mage, 1 Surgical Extraction, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 2 Tarmogoyf, 4 Abrupt Decay, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Creeping Tar Pit

Infect:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Submerge, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Vendilion Clique
OUT: 2 Tarmogoyf, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Ancestral Vision

Elves:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Submerge, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Scrubland, 3 Meddling Mage
OUT: 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2 Tarmogoyf, 1 Creeping Tar Pit

Let me know if you are interested in any other matchups. Some people prefer to leave Hymn to Tourachs in the fair matchups like Blade/Bant and instead board out some number of Force of Will. Also, some people like Meddling Mage vs Dredge, but I think naming Cabal Therapy or Dread Return is too cute. Also, some people leave some number of Hymn to Tourach in vs Reanimator, but I am not a fan.

At the end of the day, trust your intuition. This is how I would board, but there are actually many different ways of sideboarding with this deck and as long as you have a good reason to leave in/take out/board in a card go with your gut.

What would you suggest for the Maverick match up? Would it be similar to D & T?

[ironclad8690]

What would you suggest for the Maverick match up? Would it be similar to D & T?

Here is what I would do:

IN: 1 Disfigure, 1 Submerge, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle
OUT: 4 Force of Will, 1 Hymn to Tourach

They don't have Wilt-Leaf usually, so Hymn is less likely to blow you out.

[Ephemeron]

Why Submerge? That card seems terrible in Shardless. Non-BUG delver only plays it because they need an answer to Goyf but Shardless is chock full of cards that kill Goyf.

[dsck]

Why Submerge? That card seems terrible in Shardless. Non-BUG delver only plays it because they need an answer to Goyf but Shardless is chock full of cards that kill Goyf.

Against lands I would assume.

[Ephemeron]

Against lands I would assume.

Ah yeah, that's a good point. God that seems drastic though. I'd like to hear from ironclad about how its been then (assuming you've actually had a chance to use it). Specifically, did Submerging Marit Lage directly win you the game, as opposed to buying you a turn while the lands player Loams and replays the sacrificed lands.

[Serapha]

Yeah it buys you a turn unless you have a DRS up and running which is taking care of Life from the Loam. If that happens to be the case, it could very well buy you the game.

[ironclad8690]

Funkmankevx wanted to played the submerge. I personally play the 2nd disfigure in that slot. I have never tried submerge before, but I have to imagine it's better than some of the stuff you are taking out. If you have a drs that hasnt bit the dust it could be game breaking.

[btm10]

Set Adrift is at least worth considering if you're interested in the Submerge effect. It's castable off of DRS if you don't have an Island (this is relevant against good Lands players) or castable against decks like Grixis where it's a good out to Angler if they Delve away their Sorceries to protect it from Goyf and usually won't have Trop in play to make Submerge castable.

[funkymankevx]

Submerge was just something I was trying for lands, I'm coming from playing Delver so maybe that's why. Maybe an edict card would be better?

[MorphBerlin]

I think set adrift or diabloic Edict are beter in our Deck, because Submerge takes the spot of the second Disfigure in ironclad's list. And there are alot of MU where I bring in both Disfigures where Submerge is useless (Grixis Delver, GW stuff, DnT) and i definitly don't want to miss the removal there. I think I will try set adrift, since we can Easily afford the delve and the Tempo it can provide sounds really interesting to me.

[funkymankevx]

I think I'll try the edict this week and see how it goes.

[btm10]

If you look at my sideboard a few pages back, there's a Dismember slot that might work as Diabolic Edict.

[kingtk3]

Moreover, set adrift is a sorcery so it doesn't deal with marit lage token which submerge was meant to be. Diabolic edict seems the more appealing of the three.

[movingtonewao]

diabolic edict can be an awkward shardless cascade against a clean board

[kingtk3]

diabolic edict can be an awkward shardless cascade against a clean board

So can be if you cascade into abrupt decay or disfigure, but still those cards are needed and thus played: think of them as a necessary evil.

[grahilah]

3-2 in today's league online.

Lost 0-2 against Miracles. Made a pretty big mistake activating Liliana, discarding Maelstrom Pulse, and him next turn jamming Jace.
Won 2-0 versus Show + Tell. Discard is pretty good, especially bringing in 2+2 Duress / Thoughtseize out of the board.
Lost 1-2 versus Eldrazi. Won the first game, then lost the second due to double Wasteland into Reality Smasher, and then game 3 double, uncounterable Reality Smasher.
Won 2-0 versus Junk Depths. He had a slow start and my Hymns into 5/6 and larger Goyf both games really set him back.
Won 2-0 versus UWR Delver with Stoneforge Mystic. Long, grindy game one, but Toxic Deluge to wipe his board put me ahead after his Stoneforge into Batterskull. I kept him off 5 mana with wastelands and then cast True-Name Nemesis on an empty board and opponent scooped. Second game my Thoughtseize got his Batterskull and the only other threat he found was True-Name Nemesis into my board of Shardless and Lilly with 4 counters.

I'm really liking main-deck Toxic Deluge, I only recently started running it, but it's been pretty key in the fair matchups. True-Name Nemesis has been real great out of the sideboard against the fair decks.

Have a Star City Games Invitational in town next weekend, so I'll probably hit up the Classic on Sunday, and then a GPT the following weekend, so lots of Legacy to be played.

[ironclad8690]

Nice! Let us know how it goes. I have loved Toxic Deluge so much that I settled on 2, especially with all these stoneforge/tnn decks that have become more popular.

[ironclad8690]

Went 4-1 again today, beating Belcher, Mirror, Burn, and 4c Nic Fit, losing to Eldrazi that played Obligator/Displacer.

[grahilah]

Went 4-1 again today, beating Belcher, Mirror, Burn, and 4c Nic Fit, losing to Eldrazi that played Obligator/Displacer.

I've found that Eldrazi deck variant to be the most tricky. I've even seen a few with maindeck Containment Priests, and if they are able to get that online, they can really take over the game, making our slower threats much worse. I bring in Pithing Needle for Displacer and Disfigure for Containment Priests.

[ironclad8690]

How does containment priest hurt us? All of our cards are "cast".

[Ephemeron]

How does containment priest hurt us? All of our cards are "cast".

If containment priest is in play, Eldrazi Displacer just exiles creatures permanently.

[grahilah]

If containment priest is in play, Eldrazi Displacer just exiles creatures permanently.

Correct, and that very thing happened to me on a stalled board state. Displacer took over the game, exiling my entire board.

[ironclad8690]

Oh jeez that hasn't happened to me yet. Sounds like a disaster

[surface33]

D&t played mangara some time ago, if they got the vial on 3 a mangara and a karakas it was almost game over. However, I think it was difficult for them to get to that point. Is it easier for eldrazi to get that synergy rolling?

[grahilah]

D&t played mangara some time ago, if they got the vial on 3 a mangara and a karakas it was almost game over. However, I think it was difficult for them to get to that point. Is it easier for eldrazi to get that synergy rolling?

Yeah, the combo is much easier with Displacer plus Containment Priest. Displacer has an activation cost of 2C, and it's repeatable, not necessary to tap. Much easier to enable and repeat than Mangara + Karakas. Not to mention that both Displacer and Priest are much better threats on their own and are relevant even if they aren't on the field together.

[funkymankevx]

Went 2-1 with Shardless BUG tonight.

Beating Grixis Delver, and Mavrick. I lost to infect again, I seem to have a lot of trouble with this match up. I think I just need more practice with the sideboarding and match up in general though.

[grahilah]

Little report of my results for last night's local Legacy event.

Round 1 versus Jund

Normally a pretty tough matchup, this was a serious grind-fest. Game one I started on Thoughtseize, catching an Abrupt Decay out of his hand to protect my Tarmogoyf. He also had Kolagahns Command and Punishing Fire, which got my turn 2 Deathrite Shaman, but my Ancestral Vision, suspended on the second turn, came off on the sixth turn as we were both playing off the top of our library, and I was able to kill his threat with a Liliana and land another Tarmogoyf to replace the one killed earlier, and ride those and a follow-up Sylvan Library to victory. He never found a Grove to go with his Punishing Fire.

Game two I got hit with Hymn to Tourach in turns 2 and 3, putting him way ahead, and he got there with random beaters.

In game three, we both played the attrition game, but I landed an early Sylvan Library, drawing two extra cards to put me way ahead. Highlight of this game was when we were both on an empty board in the middle of the game, he tried to make me discard my one card in hand and rebuy Dark Confidant with his Kolagahn's Command, but I used the Surgical Extraction in my hand to exile all his Dark Confidants, breaking up his 2-for-1, letting my Sylvan Library dig for answers. I was able to kill his double Tarmogoyf with Maelstrom Pulse, found second card down with Sylvan Library, and then take over the game with Liliana, and he never found Punishing Fire to go with his double Grove of the Burnwillows.


Sylvan Library was a huge all-star this game. Very happy to have it in my main deck.


Round 2 versus Dredge

Luckily we have some main-deck interactions in the main deck, with Deathrite Shaman and counterspells on Careful Study/Faithless looting. Unluckily, I didn't know he was playing Dredge, so I kept a great hand of two land, Goyf, Abrupt Decay, and double Shardless Agent. So I got beat down hard by Ichorids and many zombie friends.

Game two we both mulliganed to 5, and I see a hand that contains Baleful Strix and Umezawa's Jitte, which might be enough to get there. Fortunately for me, my opponent only saw one dredger the entire game, which was too slow, as my Strix into Jitte was shortly joined by a 6/7 Tarmogoyf, and he wasn't able to get things going in time.

Game three I had an opener with Deathrite Shaman, and he only found one dredger by the time Deathrite came online, so I won that game pretty handily, especially since I made a 6/7 Goyf on turn 3.


Round 3 versus Elves

Another pretty tough matchup. The little green men are explosive, and our spot removal isn't at its best. Game one I keep an opener with Toxic Deluge, wiping his board of about six guys on turn 3, but he's able to reload and hit me for 19 with only two creatures with a Craterhoof Behemoth and one other pumped guy for lethal damage.

Game two I get to bring in all kinds of hate, like Engineered Plague, Engineered Explosived, and some things that aren't engineered, such as Pithing Needle, Damnation, and Umezawa's Jitte. In the second game, I get a quicker start, with Deathrite on turn 1, a couple pieces of removal to get his early guys, and then land an Engineered Explosives with sunburst 1 and Pithing Needle to name Wirewood Symbiote, a key piece of his combo. A followup True-Name Nemesis shows up to start attacking past his team, and when he tries to Abrupt Decay my Pithing Needle, I bust the Engineered Explosives, setting him back to an empty board. True-Name Nemesis finishes him off.

Game three he has a very slow start, and my Thoughtseize reveals double Sylvan Library, Worldspine Wurm, land, and Glimpse of Nature. I take the Glimpse, figuring taking one Library won't do much. He draws a couple extra cards off Sylvan, uses Green Sun's Zenith to find Scavenging Ooze, but my third-turn play of Wasteland his Dryad Arbor, Disfigure his other Dryad Arbor, and Abrupt Decay on Scavenging Ooze sets him way back, and finding Umezawa's Jitte on Baleful Strix let me keep his little guys off the board for a couple turns, letting me strike through with a big Tarmogoyf.


So some pretty tight games. Stars of the show were certainly Umezawa's Jitte and Sylvan Library, really extending the interactions I am able to have with my opponent and letting me find the threats and answers I need. Again very happy with Toxic Deluge in the main deck, even if I didn't win the game against Elves where I cast it, it was great to buy me time. My single Gurmag Angler in the main was pretty good as well, only saw it one game, but it was a great threat.

I dropped one Wasteland and put back in a Creeping Tar Pit. Didn't really do much work in any of the games. Might go back to Wasteland.


My current list:
Creatures (15)
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
1x Gurmag Angler
2x Baleful Strix

Spells (22)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Ancestral Vision
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Sylvan Library
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

Lands (20)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
2x Wasteland

Sideboard:
1x Duress
1x Damnation
2x Pithing Needle
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Engineered Plague
2x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x True-Name Nemesis

[James718]

People are saying that THing In the Ice goes well in here. I just don't see what you would cut for it. We are already weak to combo and this is also too slow for that.

[CutthroatCasual]

Don't listen to Modern and Standard players. They're just desperate to believe that they own Legacy-playable "staples".

[btm10]

People are saying that Thing In the Ice goes well in here. I just don't see what you would cut for it. We are already weak to combo and this is also too slow for that.

I don't think that's the main problem with Thing in this deck. It doesn't hurt the combo matchup - if anything it probably improves it - but transforming it at instant speed (which is usually going to be when you want to trigger it) is tough since we don't have many unconditional instants. It's probably good in fair matchups, but I'm not sure it will be reliably better than Goyf.


Little report of my results for last night's local Legacy event.

My current list:
Creatures (15)
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
1x Gurmag Angler
2x Baleful Strix

Spells (22)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Ancestral Vision
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Sylvan Library
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

Lands (20)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
2x Wasteland

Sideboard:
1x Duress
1x Damnation
2x Pithing Needle
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Engineered Plague
2x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x True-Name Nemesis

EE seems pretty medium in Shardless unless you expect a lot of tokens. I'm usually open to having conditional Cascades, but EE might be a bridge too far since it's at its absolute worst when you Cascade into it unless you're specifically afraid of tokens, in which case it's just really narrow.

[ironclad8690]

Just lost to grixis delver (0-2) and thopter miracles (1-2) T_T

I have been doing well recently but I think I am burning out on this deck. Anyone have any suggestions for a backup deck? (waterfalls began to feel too similar to this).

[btm10]

What do you have access to? You could always switch to BUG Delver. Jund and 4c Loam are pretty good right now, Enchantress is something I'd almost always recommend for both fun and winning...I've even flirted with playing a Blade deck recently, and I really dislike Stoneforge Mystic under normal circumstances.

[ironclad8690]

Whelp, the world was against me today...

Finished out the league.

Miracles: 0-2

Shardless mirror: 1-2 (lost g2 and g3 to Notion Thief)

Miracles: 1-2 (lucky bastard finds 2 mentor 1 entreat 1 council's judgment 1 jace after landing blood moon while I find only fetches for 6 turns in a row g3).

Yep, the elusive 0-5. I hate Miracles so much. They can play so sloppily and still win with 50 seconds on the clock... it makes me sick.

[surface33]

Whelp, the world was against me today...

Finished out the league.

Miracles: 0-2

Shardless mirror: 1-2 (lost g2 and g3 to Notion Thief)

Miracles: 1-2 (lucky bastard finds 2 mentor 1 entreat 1 council's judgment 1 jace after landing blood moon while I find only fetches for 6 turns in a row g3).

Yep, the elusive 0-5. I hate Miracles so much. They can play so sloppily and still win with 50 seconds on the clock... it makes me sick.

When i start getting bored of the deck i play reanimator. Its super fun, you play cool creatures, its cheap having shardless and is good. However I only play in paper and is hard for me to get tired.

[grahilah]

EE seems pretty medium in Shardless unless you expect a lot of tokens. I'm usually open to having conditional Cascades, but EE might be a bridge too far since it's at its absolute worst when you Cascade into it unless you're specifically afraid of tokens, in which case it's just really narrow.

Yeah that's an excellent point. In the games where I brought in EE against Elves, I did sideboard out two Shardless Agent. But it's still a pretty poor cascade.

[grahilah]

Just lost to grixis delver (0-2) and thopter miracles (1-2) T_T

I have been doing well recently but I think I am burning out on this deck. Anyone have any suggestions for a backup deck? (waterfalls began to feel too similar to this).

If I didn't play Shardless, I'd probably move to Grixis or 4c Delver, with or without Stoneforge Mystic.

[grahilah]

3-2 again in today's league.

2-0 versus some kind of Zoo deck. Game one I saw two Wild Nacatl off Tropical Island and Plateau, which after I removed with Decay and Liliana, he scooped. Game two he scooped after I Thoughtseized his Brainstorm, seeing no land other than his Tundra on board and hand of Clique, Pithing Needle, Bolt, and Red Elemental Blast, and cast second-turn Hymn. Still not sure what the deck was!
1-2 versus Storm. Game one I Wastelanded him twice and got way ahead, and he never found anything. Game two I mulliganed to five, seeing no lands in the 7 and 6, and my hand of Deathrite, Vision, and three lands didn't do much. Killed me turn 4. Game three I kept a hand of Force + blue card and Deathrite, but he found discard for my spell and killed me turn 2.
0-2 versus the mirror. Game one I got Wastelanded and Hymned out of the game. Game two was a lot of back and forth but he drew more business spells and was able to get value with Tasigur.
2-1 versus the mirror. Game one was a crazy grindfest that saw me hold off his Tarmogoyf with Baleful Strix, then watch him cast four Shardless Agent, after which I Maelstrom Pulsed them away, but with him drawing nine extra cards, I got valued out, mostly due to his three Deathrite Shamans by the end of the game. Game two my turn one Ancestral Vision came online just after a serious attrition war following my turn 4 Hymn to Tourach, and I was able to play True-Name Nemesis on turn 5 after my Vision came off, and rode TNN followed by Liliana and Goyf to victory. Last game he got an early Tarmogoyf, but my turn 1 Duress and turn 2 Hymn set him back, and I got rid of his Goyf with Maelstrom Pulse. Followed that up with Sylvan Library and my own Goyf, and found Dead Weight and Disfigure to beat his next two Goyfs.
2-0 versus Storm. Turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Strix + Deathrite, Turn 4 Goyf and drain him with Deathrite put him very far behind, and he was unable to assemble a critical mass of cards before I killed him. Game two I kept a hand of Force + blue card and Deathrite, and my Thoughtseize grabbed his Ad Nauseaum out of hand, and he never found another tutor. A second Deathrite kept his graveyard clear, constraining his mana, making the double Cabal Rituals in his hand less effective, and put him on a serious clock.

True-Name Nemesis continues to be great for me out of the sideboard. Wins games against the fair decks. Overloading on discard versus the unfair decks is the best strategy I have found, usually taking out Strix, Jace, and Deluge.

[ironclad8690]

Started a new league finally (Lejay's list card for card again), and got off to a poor start by losing to lands (1-2). Curse my luck!

How would you guys board against the molten vortex abrupt decay with Lejay's sideboard? I can't remember exactly what I did, but I think it was something to the tune of

-1 Decay, -1 Tarmogoyf, -2 Toxic Deluge, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Ancestral Vision, -1 Sylvan Library

For

1 Savannah, 1 Pithing Needle, 4 Meddling Mage, 1 Leyline of the Void

Or something like that.

[Whitefaces]

Started a new league finally (Lejay's list card for card again), and got off to a poor start by losing to lands (1-2). Curse my luck!

How would you guys board against the molten vortex abrupt decay with Lejay's sideboard? I can't remember exactly what I did, but I think it was something to the tune of

-1 Decay, -1 Tarmogoyf, -2 Toxic Deluge, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Ancestral Vision, -1 Sylvan Library

For

1 Savannah, 1 Pithing Needle, 4 Meddling Mage, 1 Leyline of the Void

Or something like that.

I wouldn't take out Decay or Goyf. We are the aggressor in the MU and Goyf is the quickest threat. If you're playing against Vortex you want Decay for it, they have plenty of targets too.

I take out all Ancestral Vision vs lands, card advantage isn't worth anything when they're loaming.

Discard is reasonable too.

I'd go

-4 Ancestral Vision
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Sylvan Library
-3 Liliana of the Veil

+4 Meddling Mage
+1 Savannah
+1 Leyline of the Void
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Duress
+1 Pithing Needle

I realise Lili is an answer to Marit Lage but she's a lot worse here than vs normal RG lands as they have decays. She can only gobble the witch if we've gone above 20 with DRS (not that likely) or forced the action with Wasteland.

[btm10]

I wouldn't take out Decay or Goyf. We are the aggressor in the MU and Goyf is the quickest threat. If you're playing against Vortex you want Decay for it, they have plenty of targets too.

I take out all Ancestral Vision vs lands, card advantage isn't worth anything when they're loaming.

Discard is reasonable too.

I'd go

-4 Ancestral Vision
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Sylvan Library
-3 Liliana of the Veil

+4 Meddling Mage
+1 Savannah
+1 Leyline of the Void
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Duress
+1 Pithing Needle

I realise Lili is an answer to Marit Lage but she's a lot worse here than vs normal RG lands as they have decays. She can only gobble the witch if we've gone above 20 with DRS (not that likely) or forced the action with Wasteland.

Liliana can contort their combo turns and discard is pretty marginal, so I'd board as:

-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Deluge
-2 Ancestral Vision

+4 Meddling Mage
+1 Leyline of the Void
+1 Savannah
+1 Pithing Needle

That being said, I'd make significant changes to Lejay's sideboard even if I wanted to run Meddling Mage. We aren't in that metagame anymore. Graveyard hate is much more important, as is killing big creatures, and there's less combo around.

[Ephemeron]

Just lost to grixis delver (0-2) and thopter miracles (1-2) T_T

I have been doing well recently but I think I am burning out on this deck. Anyone have any suggestions for a backup deck? (waterfalls began to feel too similar to this).

You should try a combo deck. I like playing reanimator when I'm not playing shardless because it's a completely different experience. I tried storm for a while but it's such a struggle to slog through rounds with it. Nothing but respect for the people who storm it up but it just wasn't my style of deck. Beating people over the head with Griselbrand is always a delight. It's also nice because decks that shardless can usually struggle with like lands/burn/elves are some of the easiest matchups for reanimator. It also probably wouldn't be too expensive to build, you've already got the mana and the FoW and that's the worst part of Reanimator.

[grahilah]

Looks like a Shardless deck took first place at this weekend's StarCityGames Legacy Classic!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=04/08/2016&end_date=04/10/2016&city=Baltimore&start_num=0

Pretty standard list, but notably no Toxic Deluge or Sylvan Library main deck.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100743

[Whitefaces]

Liliana can contort their combo turns and discard is pretty marginal, so I'd board as:

-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Deluge
-2 Ancestral Vision

+4 Meddling Mage
+1 Leyline of the Void
+1 Savannah
+1 Pithing Needle

That being said, I'd make significant changes to Lejay's sideboard even if I wanted to run Meddling Mage. We aren't in that metagame anymore. Graveyard hate is much more important, as is killing big creatures, and there's less combo around.

I don't agree on discard being marginal, especially the Jund builds. Keep in mind they're boarding into more non-lands too, and forcing the action with Crop Rotation is important. Jace contorts their combo turns as well but isn't decayable.

And what's the reasoning on keeping two Ancestral Vision in? They're really poor in the matchup. It's about card quality, not quantity.

I agree with you on the list though, this is outdated.

[surface33]

Looks like a Shardless deck took first place at this weekend's StarCityGames Legacy Classic!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=04/08/2016&end_date=04/10/2016&city=Baltimore&start_num=0

Pretty standard list, but notably no Toxic Deluge or Sylvan Library main deck.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100743

I wouldnt say not running sylvan maindeck is a surprise, I would say the major trend is not tu run it. On the other hand not running toxic is a personal decision, personally I would rather cut maelstrom, my worst MU are cards that overwhelm you with creatures.

[Arsenal]

Agreed, we run 4 Decay which takes care of a lot of stuff in the format ourside of JtMS, but it's the decks that do wide that cause headaches are our Baleful Strix isn't quite equipped to handle onslaught of tokens. 1 maindeck Toxic Deluge is a must, imo. I usually run 2nd in the sb along with other sweeper type effects.

[btm10]

Agreed, we run 4 Decay which takes care of a lot of stuff in the format ourside of JtMS, but it's the decks that do wide that cause headaches are our Baleful Strix isn't quite equipped to handle onslaught of tokens. 1 maindeck Toxic Deluge is a must, imo. I usually run 2nd in the sb along with other sweeper type effects.

This is another thing that I disagree with. I'd rather have Pulse than Deluge main (though a 1/1 split is what I'd run if I weren't running Tombstalker) - Pulse answers a horde of tokens just fine, but Deluge can't remove Jace, Batterskull, or any of the format's seemingly endless supply of bizarre noncreature annoyances. It's also far better to get Pulse countered than it is to have even a Deluge for 2 countered, and trying to Deluge away something like Reality Smasher is miserable. I haven't found decks that try to go wide around Goyf to be a significant problem unless they're simultaneously able to go bigger or have evasion. Two unchecked Pyromancers lead to board stalls at leasr as often as they become scary, and board stalls favor us.


I don't agree on discard being marginal, especially the Jund builds. Keep in mind they're boarding into more non-lands too, and forcing the action with Crop Rotation is important. Jace contorts their combo turns as well but isn't decayable.

I'm fine with them spending a turn Decaying Liliana since that means they aren't Decaying Deathrite, which is the actual threat in the matchup, and her ultimate is your best out to their Prison elements if they shut down the combat step with Stage copying Mazes. The Jund build is way easier than RG in my experience since Decay has more high-impact targets (like Vortex) and their Loam plan is weaker since they can't use Loam to find removal. I don't like targeted discard like Thoughtseize because it has a high chance of either missing outright or only hitting Punishing Fire or Loam, and outside of the Christmasland scenario where you have B and an untapped Deathrite and they can't bring the card back binning Loam is a potential disaster. Hymn is probably fine against the Jund build, but I'd have to test more to be sure. I'd rather have Clique than any other ways of attacking their hand.



And what's the reasoning on keeping two Ancestral Vision in? They're really poor in the matchup. It's about card quality, not quantity.

I agree with you on the list though, this is outdated.

Visions stays in because it's a blue card as well as because you just don't have that many card quality tools so you need to compensate with CA. The games you win are likely to take awhile and involve a lot of positional play with DRS, so waiting for a Visions to come off Suspend isn't unrealistic, and Visions dramatically increases the odds that you find your best cards like Loam or Graveyard hate.

[Zombie]

You should try a combo deck. I like playing reanimator when I'm not playing shardless because it's a completely different experience. I tried storm for a while but it's such a struggle to slog through rounds with it. Nothing but respect for the people who storm it up but it just wasn't my style of deck. Beating people over the head with Griselbrand is always a delight. It's also nice because decks that shardless can usually struggle with like lands/burn/elves are some of the easiest matchups for reanimator. It also probably wouldn't be too expensive to build, you've already got the mana and the FoW and that's the worst part of Reanimator.

I have a hard time imagining a combo deck that didn't involve a bunch of moving pieces. I just need that engine deck feel of a bunch of pieces clicking together.

[surface33]

This is another thing that I disagree with. I'd rather have Pulse than Deluge main (though a 1/1 split is what I'd run if I weren't running Tombstalker) - Pulse answers a horde of tokens just fine, but Deluge can't remove Jace, Batterskull, or any of the format's seemingly endless supply of bizarre noncreature annoyances. It's also far better to get Pulse countered than it is to have even a Deluge for 2 countered, and trying to Deluge away something like Reality Smasher is miserable. I haven't found decks that try to go wide around Goyf to be a significant problem unless they're simultaneously able to go bigger or have evasion. Two unchecked Pyromancers lead to board stalls at leasr as often as they become scary, and board stalls favor us.





We already have good MU against decks that run jace or tokens like miracles. Against other decks like grixis where the MU is bad toxic is better imo. Also D&t ad elves. I run both but toxic is the only card in our deck that answers board advantage and yoy can even chose to save your creatures, in my opinion its a really good card.

[btm10]

I thought I said this before, but apparently I didn't: I think that you want at least 1 Deluge in the 75, and if you're running just 1 then you probably want both a Golgari Charm and an Engineered Plague/Night of Souls' Betrayal in the board as well as that 1 Deluge. I don't think that Grixis is a particularly bad matchup: I'd put it at 55/45 in our favor, but with close games, unlike BUG Delver, which is also 55/45 but with much more polarized games. The extra sweeper is better against Elves and D&T, but I'd rather have the more versatile card preboard and then bring in the haymakers for g2 and g3.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Has anyone ever tried a 4 - Wasteland build with Sinkholes in place of Hymns?

[Ephemeron]

Has anyone ever tried a 4 - Wasteland build with Sinkholes in place of Hymns?

That seems more like a BUG Delver thing. With the rise of lands and eldrazi, Shardless has had to move to more Wastelands but in general I don't think land destruction is where this deck wants to be. Even late in the game it's easy to use all your mana in a turn, especially if a visions has resolved. I've been thinking about the viability of a BUG Delver deck with Wastelands plus Stifles and Sinkholes recently though.

I'm shocked anyone wouldn't play at least one deluge in their 75. I play one main and one sideboard, card has been insane for me for as long as I've played the deck. Very few cards have just outright won me the game by turning a bad situation into a great one as much as deluge has.

[ironclad8690]

Ended up 2-3 in my league with lejay list.

Lands: 1-2
Doomsday: 1-2
Sneak and Show: 1-2
Esper Stoneblade: 2-0
MUD Post: 2-0

I tried the lejay list again because he top 8ed the legacy challenge with it.

[minyafriend]

for the love of kruphix can someone please explain why there is not a competitive legacy league on mtgo!!!!!!!!!!!!????????? its freaking ridiculous.

[Ephemeron]

Is Eldrazi still like 20% of the online meta or has the hype cooled down now that SCG Philly is well past and people got their fill of trying to break it? Haven't had the time to play online in a few weeks.

[nossirag]

Hi Im gonna face a meta like this:

4 grixis
4 burn
3 shardless
3 d&t
3 elves
3 miracles
3 reanimator
3 rug
3 eldrazi
3 storm
2 ur burn
2 lands
1 Turbo depths
1 omni Show
1 merfolk
1 esper blade
1 bant

and more random stuff...

thought about going back to Leejays list, but I was happy in recent time to have switched to a non white SB. Kind of unsure in such a diverse meta.

I thought about going back to a White Sideboard and adding 1-2 Containment priests. Any suggestions?

[btm10]

That looks like a meta that's close to favoring BUG Delver over Shardless, but it's close. I'd probably run something close to my last 75:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit


Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Planar Void
1 Sylvan Library

But with the following changes:

Main
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard
-1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Disfigure, Loam, or Duress, probably Duress

Edit: I'd also change the main as:
-1 Polluted Delta
-1 Tropical Island
+2 Misty Rainforest

[James718]

That looks like a meta that's close to favoring BUG Delver over Shardless, but it's close. I'd probably run something close to my last 75:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit


Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Planar Void
1 Sylvan Library

But with the following changes:

Main
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard
-1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Disfigure, Loam, or Duress, probably Duress

Edit: I'd also change the main as:
-1 Polluted Delta
-1 Tropical Island
+2 Misty Rainforest

How do you determine which meta favors shard less or BUG?

[Quasim0ff]

Has anyone ever tried a 4 - Wasteland build with Sinkholes in place of Hymns?

A player locally plays 4 sinkholes in his board. He likes them, but yeah... They've been really useless imo :D

[Ephemeron]

How do you determine which meta favors shard less or BUG?

Lots of burn and a fair amount of combo along with miracles well under 10% of the overall meta could be rough for shardless (although the Eldrazi helps make that up a bit).

[btm10]

Lots of burn and a fair amount of combo along with miracles well under 10% of the overall meta could be rough for shardless (although the Eldrazi helps make that up a bit).

I'd generalize a bit and say that the biggest issue is the lack of "fair" midrange and control decks coupled with Burn being popular. Our Burn matchup is truly miserable, whereas Delver can usually eke out wins. Shardless is only slightly better against Miracles and D&T (I'd say it's 55/45 for Shardless and just barely worse than 50/50 for Delver against both), but Delver is substantially favored against non-Elves combo (60%+) as opposed to Shardless being slightly disfavored (45/55). Both struggle against Elves, but I'd rather have Delver to limit the combo options rather than Shardless which loses to the combo finishes while also struggling to outgrind them.

[grahilah]

Went 3-2 in my most recent online league. Lost to Lands round 1, a miserable matchup for us of course, and then played Miracles four times in a row, beating 3 out of the 4. Lost one match with my opponent at 1 life and Jace took over the game both times. Frustrating.

[btm10]

Went 3-2 in my most recent online league. Lost to Lands round 1, a miserable matchup for us of course, and then played Miracles four times in a row, beating 3 out of the 4. Lost one match with my opponent at 1 life and Jace took over the game both times. Frustrating.

What sort of Graveyard hate are you running? I've spent a lot of time playing against them recently and while the matchup isn't good by any means, it's pretty fixable with sideboarding.

Also, I'm increasingly convinced that Tombstalker is the right call in the main. Goddik's BUG Delver list was even running two copies; there are just so many decks out there (UR and Grixis Delver are the big ones) that just can't beat him. If Grixis is bringing in Baleful Strix to fight our value plan, then they're even better as they're just another creature that gets over token hordes and trades with Angler, but Stalker survives Bolt (and Decay and Ancient Grudge) while also eating Delver rather than trading.

[nossirag]

thanks for your reply. Your list seems pretty reasonable. Im not sure about the Tombstalker tho. While I get your argument vs grixis and ur, it feels clunky to me in other matchups.

[grahilah]

Got to play in the Legacy Classic at this past weekend's StarCityGames events in Columbus. I wrote up a little tournament report!


Round 1 versus Eldrazi

Game one I keep a hand with lands, Goyf, and Abrupt Decay. My opponent opens on Eldrazi Temple and Mimic. He doesn't have a second creature, but does find Umezawa's Jitte. I Decay his Mimic, Waste one of his lands, follow up with Goyf and second Wasteland, and he isn't able to recover.

Game two he gets a quicker start, making a 4/4 Endless One on turn 2. I get hit twice before I find Decay, and have to chump his follow-up Oblivion Sower with Shardless Agent, protecting my Liliana of the Veil, but the Shardless also hit Brainstorm, which allows me to find a second Liliana for his Olivion Sower. He follows up with two Dismember to wipe my board. He top-decks a few lands, I find Baleful Strix, but nothing else, and five turns more of top-decks, I fail to put it away before he finds Reality Smasher.

Game three I have a very disruptive start, with turn 1 Deathrite into turn 2 Liliana, killing his Mimic. I follow up with a Shardless Agent into Hymn to Tourach and Wasteland, and a second Wasteland puts the game out of reach, and I beat him to death with Baleful Strix and Shardless Agent.

(matches 1-0, games 2-1)
Round 2 versus Eldrazi

Game one he curves out quickly, finding turn 1 Mimic, turn 2 Matter Reshaper, and turn 3 Reality Smasher, which I completely fail to Force of Will, even though I had it in hand with blue card, and I get bashed out, losing on turn 3.

Game two his two only two lands are Ancient Tomb, and he does two damage to himself to cast Mimic, which I Decay, and then four to cast Thought-Knot Seer, which gets my Garruk Relentless in hand the turn before I can cast it. However, my follow-up Tarmogoyf is bigger than his creatures, and he, at 11, has to hold back to block my Goyf as a second Goyf hits the table, and my bigger creatures take over.

Game three I draw a few too many lands, and my business spells, Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana of the Veil, are stolen courtesy of two Thought-Knot Seers. I have a serious board, but my Goyfs are only 3/4, so I double-block on Thought-Knot Seer to kill one, and he also has Matter Reshaper and Mimic to my Goyf and Deathrite. I find a Jitte and, with my choose not to attack with my 4/5 Goyf and Jitte, and he is able to activate Eye of Ugin and attack for lethal. I maybe should have attacked to get the counters on Jitte, but I thought I didn't have enough mana to move the Jitte to my Deathrite, allowing me to block the Reality Smasher with a 5/6 Deathrite, but I still would have died to 7 damage off Matter Reshaper and Thought-Knot Seer, since I was at 3.

So a pretty serious punt in game one cost me the match. This player eventually would end up in third place at the end of the tournament.

(matches 1-1, games 3-3)
Round 3 versus Death and Taxes

Game one he started off with Mother of Runes, and my troubles only began. I had Baleful Strix, but the Mom blanked my Goyf, and he found Stoneforge into Sword of Fire and Ice into Batterskull.

Game two I Decayed his turn 1 Mother of Runes, and then cast a turn 3 Engineered Plague on Human, followed up by turn 4 Garruk Relentless. My wolves took over the game, allowing me to punch through even though he had Rest in Peace to blank my Tarmogoyfs. Eventually he cast Mirran Crusader, but I had three wolves to attack and he was low on life, and I had Abrupt Decay for the Jitte he found.

Game three was a very aggressive start for him, turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Stoneforge, turn three Batterskull. I didn't have any plays other than a Deathrite, and on his turn before my fifth turn when my suspended Ancestral Vision would come off suspend he cast Spirit of the Labyrinth. Ouch.

A good match overall, my opponent was excellent. Mother of Runes and Batterskull are very good against my deck.

(matches 1-2, games 3-4)
Round 4 versus Shardless

So the mirror is always an interesting matchup. I think it mostly comes down to who draws the right mix of lands, threats, and disruption, and then choosing your sideboard plan.

Game one was a slow start for both of us, although he had a turn 1 suspended Ancestral Vision. I committed Baleful Strix to the board, had removal for his Tarmogoyf, and then Force of Will for the Ancestral Vision. I found my own Goyf, and he drew too many lands and no answer.

For game two, I took out all my Force of Wills, bringing in Sylvan Library, Umezawa's Jitte, Garruk Relentless, and True-name Nemesis. My very aggressive start of Deathrite into Liliana to kill his turn 2 Goyf really set him back, and I followed up with Sylvan Library, allowing me to find answers to his follow-up Goyf, and Baleful strix carried Umezawa's Jitte, which killed his Shardless into Deathrite Shaman, and he conceded the game.

The key in this match was really just drawing more business spells than my opponent. He had too many lands both games, and Sylvan Library let me find all the spells I needed to answer his threats.

(matches 2-2, games 5-4)
Round 5 versus Aluren

What happens when you play a combo deck, cast four Brainstorms in one game, and never find your combo pieces? You're just a beatdown deck. That's what happened in game 1 to my very unlucky opponent, and my card quality was just higher. He never found Aluren at all in game 1, and I beat him down with Goyf and Shardless Agent into Ancestral, and I had all the removal for his creatures.

Game two I bring in Thoughtseize out of the board, but it turns out it wasn't ever needed, because he never saw Aluren this game either, or I put the game away before he could cast it. I answered his turn 1 Deathrite by not putting a land in the graveyard, and he had none either, so he couldn't accelerate. On my turn 2, I was able to Abrupt Decay his Deathrite and Wasteland his Bayou, leaving him only Swamp on board. A follow-up Deathrite of my own, and then Tarmogoyf, got his life total low, and a timely Shardless Agent into Abrupt Decay for a blocker finished him off.

(matches 3-2, games 7-4)
Round 6 versus Shardless

In game one, he started off with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and I couldn't deal with it in time, was able to flip it, keep my threats small, and his Baleful Strix was able to keep my Goyf from killing his Jace, and he was able to take over the game.

Game two I boarded out my Force of Wills and a couple Baleful Strix. I had a blistering start with Deathrite into Tarmogoyf, followed by a second Tarmogoyf, and I rode those to victory, although I feared a Maelstrom Pulse for a couple turns.

Game three we killed each other's early Deathrite Shaman, but I was able to resolve a second-turn Sylvan Library, and I was able to use it to take over. I drew an extra card to be able to play both Tarmogoyf and Abrupt Decay on his Tarmogoyf on turn 4. Followed that up with a Shardless Agent and Ancestral Vision, and then the follow-up turn was Shardless Agent into Disfigure for his Deathrite Shaman, and I was just able to value him out. The interactions between Sylvan Library and Shardless Agent are just so powerful, feels great to get to abuse that.

(matches 4-2, games 9-5)
Round 7 versus Death and Taxes

A second Death and Taxes matchup. Game 1 he gets a commanding start, finding Mother of Runes into Phyrexian Revoker on my Deathrite Shaman, finds Stoneforge Mystic and Sword of Fire and Ice, and then puts the nail in the coffin by countering my Jace, the Mind Sculptor with Mana Tithe. Ouch.

Game two I take out Force of Wills and Baleful Strix, bringing in all my fair-deck bullets like Garruk, Disfigure, plus Engineered Plague. I decay his turn 1 Mother of Runes, then cast Liliana of the Veil, followed up by Garruk Relentless. He finds Pithing Needle for my Liliana and Phyrexian Revoker for Garruk, but I used Engineered Plague on Horror to kill his Revoker. Although he played Rest in Peace, Garruk took over the game with an army of Wolves.

Game three was more of the same featuring my all-star Garruk Relentless. I found a second-turn Null Rod to blank his second-turn Stoneforge Mystic that fetched Sword of Fire and Ice, on his third turn he left up mana for the Sword, maybe not knowing what Null Rod did. When he went to equip on his fourth turn, I instructed that he could not, and he was pretty bummed. A lack of follow-up on his part saw me cast Garruk Relentless on my fourth turn, killing his Stoneforge, and transforming Garruk. My opponent found Rest in Peace, but an army of 1/1 wolves and my sacrificing my useless Tarmogoyf to find Shardless Agent into Abrupt Decay on Serra Avenger put the game away.

(matches 5-2, games 11-6)
Round 8 versus Sneak and Show

Game one I didn't know what my opponent was on, so I kept a solid value hand of Ancestral Vision, Hymn, Decay, a couple threats, and two lands. Unfortunately, none of that really interacts with Sneak and Show, so after my opponent Spell Pierces my turn 2 Hymn to Tourach, his Griselbrand off Show and Tell was much better than my Baleful Strix. I held him off a couple turns, but he drew 14 cards and found Sneak Attack into Emrakul.

Game two I sent back my hand that had no Force or discard, keeping a one-land hand of six cards with Force of Will. I tanked on lands for two turns, when he cast Show and Tell, which I Forced. I finally found a land, casting one then a second Tarmogoyf, and he never found anything else to help him in two turns.

Game three I had to mulligan to five, seeing no lands in my first two hands. I never managed to interact with him, my Abrupt Decay not relevant and Liliana too slow. He played Sneak Attack on turn 4, wiping my board with Emrakul. Fair magic is fair.

I managed to dodge variance, and combo, until the final round. I finished just out of the top 32 due to the last round loss, my tie breaks about .01 off.

Final record matches 5-3, games 12-8.

Still pretty happy with the day over all. Had great games, win or lose, and all my opponents were cool human beings. Also, the event was super well run by StarCityGames, as always.

Some thoughts about card choices. Highlights were sideboard cards like Garruk Relentless, Null Rod, Umezawa's Jitte, and Sylvan Library. They were all-stars, letting you multiply your card advantage in different ways. In the main, I'm glad to be up to four Ancestral Vision again, I think there are more fair decks in the format, and after early attrition wars, it's nice to have those come off suspend and let you get ahead. Unless your opponent is smart, and plays Spirit of the Labyrinth! Creeping Tar Pit never did anything for me the entire tournament. I didn't ever actually activate it. I almost always found better ways to use my mana. But I didn't see it very often. The rest of the main is pretty solid. I'm happy not having Thoughtseize in the main. Again, with fair decks, one for ones are pretty poor. They're fine in the sideboard. I might try to go up a couple discard in the sideboard, I would have liked more against Sneak and Show.


My current list:

Creatures (15)
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
3x Baleful Strix

Spells (20)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Hymn to Tourach

Planeswalkers (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Watery Grave
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sylvan Library
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Thoughtseize
1x Engineered Plague
2x Disfigure
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x True-Name Nemesis

[grahilah]

What sort of Graveyard hate are you running? I've spent a lot of time playing against them recently and while the matchup isn't good by any means, it's pretty fixable with sideboarding.

In my online version, I'm only running one each of Grafdigger's Cage and Nihil Spellbomb. Probably not enough! In paper I've trimmed down on graveyard hate as well. People in my local meta just don't play graveyard based decks, and anything like Relic hurts us pretty bad, too.

[btm10]

thanks for your reply. Your list seems pretty reasonable. Im not sure about the Tombstalker tho. While I get your argument vs grixis and ur, it feels clunky to me in other matchups.

Outside of most combo matchups it's not clunky at all. It's huge in BGx pseudo-mirrors since it doesn't die to Decay, and is similarly hard to burn out against people with Bolt. Taking to the air is one of the best ways to beat D&T game 1, and it's occasionally hardcastable under RiP, giving you back some closing speed.


Got to play in the Legacy Classic at this past weekend's StarCityGames events in Columbus. I wrote up a little tournament report!


Round 1 versus Eldrazi

Game one I keep a hand with lands, Goyf, and Abrupt Decay. My opponent opens on Eldrazi Temple and Mimic. He doesn't have a second creature, but does find Umezawa's Jitte. I Decay his Mimic, Waste one of his lands, follow up with Goyf and second Wasteland, and he isn't able to recover.

Game two he gets a quicker start, making a 4/4 Endless One on turn 2. I get hit twice before I find Decay, and have to chump his follow-up Oblivion Sower with Shardless Agent, protecting my Liliana of the Veil, but the Shardless also hit Brainstorm, which allows me to find a second Liliana for his Olivion Sower. He follows up with two Dismember to wipe my board. He top-decks a few lands, I find Baleful Strix, but nothing else, and five turns more of top-decks, I fail to put it away before he finds Reality Smasher.

Game three I have a very disruptive start, with turn 1 Deathrite into turn 2 Liliana, killing his Mimic. I follow up with a Shardless Agent into Hymn to Tourach and Wasteland, and a second Wasteland puts the game out of reach, and I beat him to death with Baleful Strix and Shardless Agent.

(matches 1-0, games 2-1)
Round 2 versus Eldrazi

Game one he curves out quickly, finding turn 1 Mimic, turn 2 Matter Reshaper, and turn 3 Reality Smasher, which I completely fail to Force of Will, even though I had it in hand with blue card, and I get bashed out, losing on turn 3.

Game two his two only two lands are Ancient Tomb, and he does two damage to himself to cast Mimic, which I Decay, and then four to cast Thought-Knot Seer, which gets my Garruk Relentless in hand the turn before I can cast it. However, my follow-up Tarmogoyf is bigger than his creatures, and he, at 11, has to hold back to block my Goyf as a second Goyf hits the table, and my bigger creatures take over.

Game three I draw a few too many lands, and my business spells, Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana of the Veil, are stolen courtesy of two Thought-Knot Seers. I have a serious board, but my Goyfs are only 3/4, so I double-block on Thought-Knot Seer to kill one, and he also has Matter Reshaper and Mimic to my Goyf and Deathrite. I find a Jitte and, with my choose not to attack with my 4/5 Goyf and Jitte, and he is able to activate Eye of Ugin and attack for lethal. I maybe should have attacked to get the counters on Jitte, but I thought I didn't have enough mana to move the Jitte to my Deathrite, allowing me to block the Reality Smasher with a 5/6 Deathrite, but I still would have died to 7 damage off Matter Reshaper and Thought-Knot Seer, since I was at 3.

So a pretty serious punt in game one cost me the match. This player eventually would end up in third place at the end of the tournament.

(matches 1-1, games 3-3)
Round 3 versus Death and Taxes

Game one he started off with Mother of Runes, and my troubles only began. I had Baleful Strix, but the Mom blanked my Goyf, and he found Stoneforge into Sword of Fire and Ice into Batterskull.

Game two I Decayed his turn 1 Mother of Runes, and then cast a turn 3 Engineered Plague on Human, followed up by turn 4 Garruk Relentless. My wolves took over the game, allowing me to punch through even though he had Rest in Peace to blank my Tarmogoyfs. Eventually he cast Mirran Crusader, but I had three wolves to attack and he was low on life, and I had Abrupt Decay for the Jitte he found.

Game three was a very aggressive start for him, turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Stoneforge, turn three Batterskull. I didn't have any plays other than a Deathrite, and on his turn before my fifth turn when my suspended Ancestral Vision would come off suspend he cast Spirit of the Labyrinth. Ouch.

A good match overall, my opponent was excellent. Mother of Runes and Batterskull are very good against my deck.

(matches 1-2, games 3-4)
Round 4 versus Shardless

So the mirror is always an interesting matchup. I think it mostly comes down to who draws the right mix of lands, threats, and disruption, and then choosing your sideboard plan.

Game one was a slow start for both of us, although he had a turn 1 suspended Ancestral Vision. I committed Baleful Strix to the board, had removal for his Tarmogoyf, and then Force of Will for the Ancestral Vision. I found my own Goyf, and he drew too many lands and no answer.

For game two, I took out all my Force of Wills, bringing in Sylvan Library, Umezawa's Jitte, Garruk Relentless, and True-name Nemesis. My very aggressive start of Deathrite into Liliana to kill his turn 2 Goyf really set him back, and I followed up with Sylvan Library, allowing me to find answers to his follow-up Goyf, and Baleful strix carried Umezawa's Jitte, which killed his Shardless into Deathrite Shaman, and he conceded the game.

The key in this match was really just drawing more business spells than my opponent. He had too many lands both games, and Sylvan Library let me find all the spells I needed to answer his threats.

(matches 2-2, games 5-4)
Round 5 versus Aluren

What happens when you play a combo deck, cast four Brainstorms in one game, and never find your combo pieces? You're just a beatdown deck. That's what happened in game 1 to my very unlucky opponent, and my card quality was just higher. He never found Aluren at all in game 1, and I beat him down with Goyf and Shardless Agent into Ancestral, and I had all the removal for his creatures.

Game two I bring in Thoughtseize out of the board, but it turns out it wasn't ever needed, because he never saw Aluren this game either, or I put the game away before he could cast it. I answered his turn 1 Deathrite by not putting a land in the graveyard, and he had none either, so he couldn't accelerate. On my turn 2, I was able to Abrupt Decay his Deathrite and Wasteland his Bayou, leaving him only Swamp on board. A follow-up Deathrite of my own, and then Tarmogoyf, got his life total low, and a timely Shardless Agent into Abrupt Decay for a blocker finished him off.

(matches 3-2, games 7-4)
Round 6 versus Shardless

In game one, he started off with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and I couldn't deal with it in time, was able to flip it, keep my threats small, and his Baleful Strix was able to keep my Goyf from killing his Jace, and he was able to take over the game.

Game two I boarded out my Force of Wills and a couple Baleful Strix. I had a blistering start with Deathrite into Tarmogoyf, followed by a second Tarmogoyf, and I rode those to victory, although I feared a Maelstrom Pulse for a couple turns.

Game three we killed each other's early Deathrite Shaman, but I was able to resolve a second-turn Sylvan Library, and I was able to use it to take over. I drew an extra card to be able to play both Tarmogoyf and Abrupt Decay on his Tarmogoyf on turn 4. Followed that up with a Shardless Agent and Ancestral Vision, and then the follow-up turn was Shardless Agent into Disfigure for his Deathrite Shaman, and I was just able to value him out. The interactions between Sylvan Library and Shardless Agent are just so powerful, feels great to get to abuse that.

(matches 4-2, games 9-5)
Round 7 versus Death and Taxes

A second Death and Taxes matchup. Game 1 he gets a commanding start, finding Mother of Runes into Phyrexian Revoker on my Deathrite Shaman, finds Stoneforge Mystic and Sword of Fire and Ice, and then puts the nail in the coffin by countering my Jace, the Mind Sculptor with Mana Tithe. Ouch.

Game two I take out Force of Wills and Baleful Strix, bringing in all my fair-deck bullets like Garruk, Disfigure, plus Engineered Plague. I decay his turn 1 Mother of Runes, then cast Liliana of the Veil, followed up by Garruk Relentless. He finds Pithing Needle for my Liliana and Phyrexian Revoker for Garruk, but I used Engineered Plague on Horror to kill his Revoker. Although he played Rest in Peace, Garruk took over the game with an army of Wolves.

Game three was more of the same featuring my all-star Garruk Relentless. I found a second-turn Null Rod to blank his second-turn Stoneforge Mystic that fetched Sword of Fire and Ice, on his third turn he left up mana for the Sword, maybe not knowing what Null Rod did. When he went to equip on his fourth turn, I instructed that he could not, and he was pretty bummed. A lack of follow-up on his part saw me cast Garruk Relentless on my fourth turn, killing his Stoneforge, and transforming Garruk. My opponent found Rest in Peace, but an army of 1/1 wolves and my sacrificing my useless Tarmogoyf to find Shardless Agent into Abrupt Decay on Serra Avenger put the game away.

(matches 5-2, games 11-6)
Round 8 versus Sneak and Show

Game one I didn't know what my opponent was on, so I kept a solid value hand of Ancestral Vision, Hymn, Decay, a couple threats, and two lands. Unfortunately, none of that really interacts with Sneak and Show, so after my opponent Spell Pierces my turn 2 Hymn to Tourach, his Griselbrand off Show and Tell was much better than my Baleful Strix. I held him off a couple turns, but he drew 14 cards and found Sneak Attack into Emrakul.

Game two I sent back my hand that had no Force or discard, keeping a one-land hand of six cards with Force of Will. I tanked on lands for two turns, when he cast Show and Tell, which I Forced. I finally found a land, casting one then a second Tarmogoyf, and he never found anything else to help him in two turns.

Game three I had to mulligan to five, seeing no lands in my first two hands. I never managed to interact with him, my Abrupt Decay not relevant and Liliana too slow. He played Sneak Attack on turn 4, wiping my board with Emrakul. Fair magic is fair.

I managed to dodge variance, and combo, until the final round. I finished just out of the top 32 due to the last round loss, my tie breaks about .01 off.

Final record matches 5-3, games 12-8.

Still pretty happy with the day over all. Had great games, win or lose, and all my opponents were cool human beings. Also, the event was super well run by StarCityGames, as always.

Some thoughts about card choices. Highlights were sideboard cards like Garruk Relentless, Null Rod, Umezawa's Jitte, and Sylvan Library. They were all-stars, letting you multiply your card advantage in different ways. In the main, I'm glad to be up to four Ancestral Vision again, I think there are more fair decks in the format, and after early attrition wars, it's nice to have those come off suspend and let you get ahead. Unless your opponent is smart, and plays Spirit of the Labyrinth! Creeping Tar Pit never did anything for me the entire tournament. I didn't ever actually activate it. I almost always found better ways to use my mana. But I didn't see it very often. The rest of the main is pretty solid. I'm happy not having Thoughtseize in the main. Again, with fair decks, one for ones are pretty poor. They're fine in the sideboard. I might try to go up a couple discard in the sideboard, I would have liked more against Sneak and Show.


My current list:

Creatures (15)
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
3x Baleful Strix

Spells (20)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Hymn to Tourach

Planeswalkers (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Watery Grave
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sylvan Library
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Thoughtseize
1x Engineered Plague
2x Disfigure
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x True-Name Nemesis


In my online version, I'm only running one each of Grafdigger's Cage and Nihil Spellbomb. Probably not enough! In paper I've trimmed down on graveyard hate as well. People in my local meta just don't play graveyard based decks, and anything like Relic hurts us pretty bad, too.

Congrats on your result. I've been looking for a place to add Garruk and will have to try him for sure now. I'm similarly unimpressed with Tar Pit and will probably test a 9th-10th fetch in that slot (I go back and forth on the second Trop as well).

[MorphBerlin]

Thanks for the Report grahilah,

why are you running a watery grave? Running 4 Seas is not necessary, and having 8 Fetches Seems low anyway. I would much rather run a Misty then a Grave (or even 4th Sea)

Garruk seems great, have to try him. How good is he against Eldrazi?

What do you think of Plague vs Deluge - how often is one better than the other?

[grahilah]

Thanks for the Report grahilah,

why are you running a watery grave? Running 4 Seas is not necessary, and having 8 Fetches Seems low anyway. I would much rather run a Misty then a Grave (or even 4th Sea)

Garruk seems great, have to try him. How good is he against Eldrazi?

What do you think of Plague vs Deluge - how often is one better than the other?

Running Watery Grave solely due to card availability issues. I used Tyler Bailey's manabase, his deck from the last SCG Legacy Classic : http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100743

I have run a fetch in that slot before, but was trying another real land, since I felt like I found fetches too often. Maybe it should be a fetch!

Garruk is the real deal. I split the finals of a Legacy GPT this weekend running the exact 75 above, and again Garruk was key in several matches. Against Miracles he's a very difficult to deal with threat. Very good against Eldrazi, stopping anything short of Reality Smasher. And won me a game against R/G Lands, getting around his Maze of Ith.

I like Engineered Plague much more against Elves and Goblins, which is why I have it in there, since there are several players in the local meta on those decks. It's also great against Death and Taxes naming Humans, solves the Mother of Runes problem definitively.

Deluge is better against Grixis and the mirror, letting you walk them into a board state where they are getting ahead, and then you can catch them getting greedy in a 3-for-1. I won a game against Grixis by casting Toxic Deluge on the third turn, killing my own Deathrite Shaman, but getting his Shaman and Delver, plus Wastelanding his only land. He wasn't able to recover, and I won the game, and the match.

So, both cards are good in different circumstances.

[nantukoavatar]

Hey Guys, new to the Source and the thread. I spent the last few days reading up on the thread to get up to speed with what you guys have been talking about so as not to rehash recent topics. Ironclad thanks a lot for the deck list and side boarding tips it really helped me get my head around it. side boarding being my weakest aspect of magic imo.

Tomorrow I am taking the deck to a local turny, I will post my results. Planning on taking a version pretty close to the ironclad talked about in his post. With a few changes that I want to try out

Main
-1 tar pit
+1 waste

Side Board
-1 submerge
-1 medding mage

+1 edict
+1 garruk relentless

As I am expecting more eldrazi/fair decks and less control, and I think that garruk relentless is just a bomb card.

[btm10]

The more creature decks (especially Eldrazi) you expect, the better Tombstalker becomes. I'd make room for a singleton.

[ironclad8690]

Hey Guys, new to the Source and the thread. I spent the last few days reading up on the thread to get up to speed with what you guys have been talking about so as not to rehash recent topics. Ironclad thanks a lot for the deck list and side boarding tips it really helped me get my head around it. side boarding being my weakest aspect of magic imo.

Tomorrow I am taking the deck to a local turny, I will post my results. Planning on taking a version pretty close to the ironclad talked about in his post. With a few changes that I want to try out

Main
-1 tar pit
+1 waste

Side Board
-1 submerge
-1 medding mage

+1 edict
+1 garruk relentless

As I am expecting more eldrazi/fair decks and less control, and I think that garruk relentless is just a bomb card.

No problem! I love riffing about magic, and I have come to love this deck.

I play a slightly different version which is a cross between Lejay's list and the BoM list.

[MorphBerlin]

Running Watery Grave solely due to card availability issues. I used Tyler Bailey's manabase, his deck from the last SCG Legacy Classic : http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100743

I have run a fetch in that slot before, but was trying another real land, since I felt like I found fetches too often. Maybe it should be a fetch!

Garruk is the real deal. I split the finals of a Legacy GPT this weekend running the exact 75 above, and again Garruk was key in several matches. Against Miracles he's a very difficult to deal with threat. Very good against Eldrazi, stopping anything short of Reality Smasher. And won me a game against R/G Lands, getting around his Maze of Ith.

I like Engineered Plague much more against Elves and Goblins, which is why I have it in there, since there are several players in the local meta on those decks. It's also great against Death and Taxes naming Humans, solves the Mother of Runes problem definitively.

Deluge is better against Grixis and the mirror, letting you walk them into a board state where they are getting ahead, and then you can catch them getting greedy in a 3-for-1. I won a game against Grixis by casting Toxic Deluge on the third turn, killing my own Deathrite Shaman, but getting his Shaman and Delver, plus Wastelanding his only land. He wasn't able to recover, and I won the game, and the match.

So, both cards are good in different circumstances.

Thanks for the Reply, I will try Garruk definitely and maybe Plague. I have not been to happy with my 1 Deluge MB and 1 Sb + NoSB, it seems to be kind of overkill and not needed in the current meta.

As for the Grave:

I honestly think it doesn't matter if you play 4th Sea or 9th Fetch. I never wished for a Fetch to be a Sea but sometimes a Sea would have been worse than a fetch because you want to have green mana or want to get a Basic. So I think running 9-10 Fetches is better but that is only my opinion and if you want to run Tylers Mana base its fine.

But, Watery Grave vs 9th Fetch I would definitely go with the Fetch as I don"t want to loose an additional life. Seems to me like fetch is strictly better here.

[matunos]

I took a hiatus from this deck for a while, but I've been playing some pickup games online and I must say that I still like Volrath's Stronghold. Everyone should give it a try. With Shardless and Strix, the card should just be called Value Town. Seems good with Garruk too.

[nantukoavatar]

Report from the first turny with the deck. Ended up 0-3 :( I still have a lot to learn with this deck for sure as I made many mistakes, and a few that cost me the game.

Round 1 - Grixis delver, mulled every game
Game 1 it was close and grindy, he was a head on board most of the game and I started to stabilize, but I scoped when I was at 3 life and he had two death rites, but only one black. (I thought he had two black) I was dead to about half his deck, and he had a ponder. So I was likely dead but I need to make him show it.
Game 2 - Charm was a champ and killed 5 of his creatures
Game 3 - very grindy after a mull to 5 but a turn two hymm helped me stay close. The critical turn I went for Jace he dazed it which was his only card in hand and top decked his last turn.

Round 2 -High Tide
Both Game 1 and 2 didn't see a single hymm and only one thought seize game 2. Lost both games a turn short of lethal

Round 3 - Eldrazi
Game 1 - made a huge misplay by blocking bad lossing my 4/5 goyf rather than taking the hit. I also had a shardless agent which died blocking a 7/7 endless one. It dieing would have made my goyf a 5/6. Lesson learned Eldrazi has no reach being at 2 life is fine
Game 2 - garruk relentless closed out the game in quick order
Game 3 - This was really interesting early game. I was on the draw kept a of 2 waste, fetch, bayou, library, goyf, toxic. He goes tomb pass. I waste it. He goes tomb pass. My draw for turn 2 was a third waste. First was it right to waste on turn 1 and should I have wasted on turn 2?
I went bayou, pass. He went eye, 2 matter reshapers. I went waste library. This was a very greedy line looking back but my plan was to toxic away the board on my next turn. He went temple, mimic and 2 TKS. taking my toxic and the game

Thoughts on High Tide, it seems like a way much match up than ANT as we have no great interaction other than FoW and discard. Against ANT we can use things like null rod and attack their mana with waste. Or is it just such a small % of something like a GP that it is not worth planning for?

Thoughts with the changes I made to the list ironclad posted
I used a piece of paper to track the extra wastes vs a tar pit. In the 8 games I played it only came up once and I was happy it came into play untapped. It was game 2 round 1 and I had been wasted 3 times so I only had a bayou in play. So being able to cast goyf off of the untapped land was a big deal. I will continue to track in my testing.

Garruk Relentless is real and I really like having him in the side. However not sure if lossing the meddling mage is worth it as he may just make good matchups better.

Edict was sided in rounds 1 and 3 but never came up.

Overall I learned a lot with the deck and had a good time. I am excited to get better as I prepare for GP Columbus.

[ironclad8690]

After another mediocre 2-3 finish losing to deathblade, miracles and I cant even remember what else, I am moving to jund for a while. Better blade and miracles matchup and combo isn't much worse. I will continue playing this in paper though, be back after a while.

[James718]

Is the reason we don't run stronghold because it makes colorless mana? Would you have to take out a wasteland for it?

[Whitefaces]

After another mediocre 2-3 finish losing to deathblade, miracles and I cant even remember what else, I am moving to jund for a while. Better blade and miracles matchup and combo isn't much worse. I will continue playing this in paper though, be back after a while.

Can I recommend this list, and see how you fare with it? A lot of similarities to a Lejay list, preboarded for fair decks and vs combo you bring in 13-15 cards. It's treated me very well.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Scrubland
4 Meddling Made
1 Containment Priest
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Road
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
X – I’ve always had a 15th slot in flux, usually an E Plague or Notion Thief.

Liliana is meta depentant. She’s good vs Eldrazi and other fair decks, but not vs Miracles or swarms (elves etc). Could be switched to a third Deluge and Jace. These cards have such high impact in the matchups they’re good in you generally just need to find one on time.

The Loam is slightly unorthodox, but has outperformed again and again. I really urge people to try it. It takes the slot of the Ponder that Lejay was playing as land 21.5.

Typically vs combo decks you have an easy switch of Goyfs (replaced on curve my MM), Decay, Pulse, Deluges, Loam, Swamp (replaced by Scrubland) vs 13 relevant SB options. Can shave Visions or Strix too, depending on the matchup if you want 14 or 15.

[btm10]

Edict was sided in rounds 1 and 3 but never came up.

Overall I learned a lot with the deck and had a good time. I am excited to get better as I prepare for GP Columbus.

The deck does require some practice (more than most people admit), but you've got plenty of time to learn it before the GP. Of the two High Tide decks (Solidarity and Spiral Tide), Solidarity is pretty easy to beat since they have to go off like a normal Storm deck (which they essentially are) and are vulnerable to the same sort of disruption as ANT, TNT, or TES while being about 2 full turns slower. Spiral Tide can go off from very little, runs Top to fight discard, and gets to use offensive countermagic to fight Force while being a turn faster than Solidarity, so it's not a great matchup (I'd say it's about as hard as ANT, maybe a little harder). Neither deck is particularly common though, and people who play either well are even rarer.


Is the reason we don't run stronghold because it makes colorless mana? Would you have to take out a wasteland for it?

That's part of it, but the bigger issue is that it's just very slow and win more. It effectively costs 2B to draw a specific card or set up a Cascade, and that's just not a good enough rate. If I wanted a card that cost at least 4 mana and took two turns to accomplish anything, I'd run Jitte.


Can I recommend this list, and see how you fare with it? A lot of similarities to a Lejay list, preboarded for fair decks and vs combo you bring in 13-15 cards. It's treated me very well.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Scrubland
4 Meddling Made
1 Containment Priest
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Road
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
X – I’ve always had a 15th slot in flux, usually an E Plague or Notion Thief.

Liliana is meta depentant. She’s good vs Eldrazi and other fair decks, but not vs Miracles or swarms (elves etc). Could be switched to a third Deluge and Jace. These cards have such high impact in the matchups they’re good in you generally just need to find one on time.

The Loam is slightly unorthodox, but has outperformed again and again. I really urge people to try it. It takes the slot of the Ponder that Lejay was playing as land 21.5.

Typically vs combo decks you have an easy switch of Goyfs (replaced on curve my MM), Decay, Pulse, Deluges, Loam, Swamp (replaced by Scrubland) vs 13 relevant SB options. Can shave Visions or Strix too, depending on the matchup if you want 14 or 15.

I've tried Loam SB and found that while it's great in some matchups it's decidedly less than great in others. There are absolutely metagames where it seems like a maindeckable card, though I'm skeptical of it for the large summer tournaments (GPs, Eternal Extravaganza, etc.) since the matchups where I want it won't be a large enough chunk of the meta for me to give it a maindeck slot. I've been harping on Tombstalker lately, but that slot was a third Strix before it was Tombstalker and Stalker was just better. Not being Bolt- or Decay-able is huge against Delver and it dominates the board in any matchup as soon as it resolves. I've commented in detail on Meddling Mage before, but but briefly: with the decline in Storm combo as a result of Chalice decks becoming more popular, Meddling Mage has lost a lot of utility. He's marginal at best against Sneak and Show while being much too slow against the glass cannon decks and Reanimator. He's useful against Lands, but so are Vendilion Clique, Loam, Pithing Needle, and additional graveyard hate.

[btm10]

Had a small FNM last night, went 3-0, beating UWr Blade, Miracles, and the mirror. I dropped game one against the mirror to being on the draw (we mirrored each others plays turns 1 and 2, but his turn 1 Visions came off first and he got too far ahead as a result), but that was the only game loss I took. I got some games in against Wg Eldrazi after the event and that seemed fine too. I ran 74/75 from the last list I posted and moved the second Deluge back to the board for an MD Sylvan Library. I didn't find Library in any game 1s, so it didn't make a difference. Deck still felt great.

[ironclad8690]

The switch to Jund didn't go at all how I had hoped it would. I beat miracles and blade decks, but couldn't really beat anything else so I am back to Shardless.

I went 1-4 in a league using the Bazaar of Moxen winning decklist:

Manaless Dredge: 1-2
ANT: 1-2
Deathblade: 1-2
Miracles: 0-2
BUG Delver: 2-0

I revised my list to be better again miracles (list in sig), and took it into another league and went 2-0 vs Death and Taxes.

Match win % at 56.48 after 301 matches, so not too shabby I guess. Really trying to improve vs Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Grixis Delver, Deathblade/Esper Stoneblade/Bant Stoneblade, Miracles, and Lands.

[alasfrica]

Went 3-1 at today's weekly & placed 4th. Split top 4

Round 1: 1-2 v. Burning Reanimator
This match up is miserable. I answered his reanimation spells but the deck is so redundant it just draws more the next turn

Round 2: 2-0 v. Goblins
Game 1 I turn hit 2 Aether Vials with a Maelstrom Pulse on turn 2 and drew 3/4 abrupt decays to take care of everything while having Gofys for blockers. Game 2 I played Null Rod on turn 2 to shut off his Aether Vial and drew Golgari Charm to wipe most of his board. Goyfs took over

Round 3: 2-0 v. BUG Walkers?
He has planeswalkers and Intuitions in his deck along with Loam and Raven's Crime. It was sort of like the modern Gifts deck. I didn't see much of it since he got Brainstorm locked both games early on.

Round 4: 2-0 v. Reanimator
Game 1 I had a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman and game 2 a turn one Nihil Spellbomb and kept on stacking sideboard hate on the board as the game went on.


I hadn't played at this LGS in a couple weeks-months and I had no idea what to expect for the meta. I went in blind with this as my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland

SB
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdiffer's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Force of Will
1 Notion Thief
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Toxic Deluge

[ironclad8690]

Went 3-1 at today's weekly & placed 4th. Split top 4

Round 1: 1-2 v. Burning Reanimator
This match up is miserable. I answered his reanimation spells but the deck is so redundant it just draws more the next turn

Round 2: 2-0 v. Goblins
Game 1 I turn hit 2 Aether Vials with a Maelstrom Pulse on turn 2 and drew 3/4 abrupt decays to take care of everything while having Gofys for blockers. Game 2 I played Null Rod on turn 2 to shut off his Aether Vial and drew Golgari Charm to wipe most of his board. Goyfs took over

Round 3: 2-0 v. BUG Walkers?
He has planeswalkers and Intuitions in his deck along with Loam and Raven's Crime. It was sort of like the modern Gifts deck. I didn't see much of it since he got Brainstorm locked both games early on.

Round 4: 2-0 v. Reanimator
Game 1 I had a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman and game 2 a turn one Nihil Spellbomb and kept on stacking sideboard hate on the board as the game went on.


I hadn't played at this LGS in a couple weeks-months and I had no idea what to expect for the meta. I went in blind with this as my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland

SB
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdiffer's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Force of Will
1 Notion Thief
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Toxic Deluge

Going to change your list or sideboard now that you know what to expect? Maybe more grave hate?

[alasfrica]

Going to change your list or sideboard now that you know what to expect? Maybe more grave hate?

Yeah, I'll have to give it some thought. I think I might drop the Hymns from the 75, but I never know if that's correct.

I think the sideboard needs some changes for sure. I'm thinking of running a second Nihil Spellbomb over the True-Name and maybe a second Surgical Extraction? Surgical seems worse as it isn't a permanent and every time I'm holding onto it I get Duressed/Thoughtseized/Unmasked before they bin their targets.

[btm10]

I definitely prefer permanent-based Graveyard hate in the current meta. As for Hymn, how much Reanimator is normal for you? If you're seeing 2 people out of 10 or so week in, week out, then I'd definitely cut them for Thoughtseize and Duress.

[ironclad8690]

1-4 in another league.

UWR Vial (Meddling Mage, Mother of Runes, TNN, Clique, Stoneforge, Grim Lavamancer, etc): 0-2
UR Delver: 2-1
Zombardment: 0-2
ANT: 0-2
BW Pox: 0-2

Previous league was 3-2

Grixis Control: 2-1
Miracles: 2-0
Death and Taxes: 1-2
Grixis Delver: 1-2
Death and Taxes: 2-0

I continue to be on one of the worst league-streaks of my life, with the last 7 leagues yielding either break even or less in terms of value.

[btm10]

The 1-4 has to be at least somewhat attributable to dropping games to decks that I have to assume you've never seen before, so your opponent's had at least some edge in being able to recognize what you were doing while you quite possibly misassigned them as something else and couldn't play optimally since you didn't know what to play around. As for the 3-2, it doesn't seem that bad (though I get that it's not great in terms of value), but splitting in games with Grixis isn't far from the overall matchup % (I think it's maybe slightly better than 55-45 in out favor, but I'd have to look at my notes when I get home) and D&T isn't exactly a great matchup. So while having bad runs sucks, I suspect it's more about vairance than it is about you or the deck.

[alasfrica]

I definitely prefer permanent-based Graveyard hate in the current meta. As for Hymn, how much Reanimator is normal for you? If you're seeing 2 people out of 10 or so week in, week out, then I'd definitely cut them for Thoughtseize and Duress.

It was a small event this week, I believe 13 people. In the 13 there were 2 Reanimator and 1 Lands. Hymn doesn't seem great, but I already have 2 Thoughtseize main. I don't know what I would put in the slot.

[Jaytron]

Looking to switch to Shardless for a bit, because my local meta is pretty bad for Delver.

This is what I'm starting with: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/391110#paper

I don't have a 4th visions handy, but I think that maybe 4 hymns is a bit too much? Any suggestions for the main/sb to start with?

[ironclad8690]

Looking to switch to Shardless for a bit, because my local meta is pretty bad for Delver.

This is what I'm starting with: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/391110#paper

I don't have a 4th visions handy, but I think that maybe 4 hymns is a bit too much? Any suggestions for the main/sb to start with?

Some people love 4 Hymns, but I do not prefer it. If I were you I would cut them for either thoughtseizes, extra strix, extra jace, extra toxic deluge, extra creeping tar pit, md sylvan library, or extra lili (depending on what you have and what you want to be good against).

Thoughtseizes make you better vs combo, Jace/Tar Pit/Sylvan make you better against Miracles, Sylvan/Deluge/Lili/Strix/Jace make you better against other fair/midrange decks.

[btm10]

I agree that 4 Hymns seems like a lot, especially if Delver isn't great for your meta. I'd cut 1-2 for any of the options that ironclad suggested, depending on your playstyle. I've loved 1-of Tombstalker, but others' results haven't been as good. If you want to try it, I'd pair it with a 4th Visions, a second Jace, a second Deluge, a Thoughtseize, or an extra MD removal spell.

I have much larger issues with the sideboard. Notion Theif is probably the single worst card that's widely played in Shardless. It's only good in the mirror and against Miracles, and that's at least as much because it costs four and has Flash as because of the card drawing ability. Getting someone with it in response to Brainstorm, a Top flip, or Visions is great, but the floor on the card is being a strictly worse Vendilion Clique. I also think that Surgical Extraction is the worst Graveyard hate available to the deck.

[Jaytron]

Some people love 4 Hymns, but I do not prefer it. If I were you I would cut them for either thoughtseizes, extra strix, extra jace, extra toxic deluge, extra creeping tar pit, md sylvan library, or extra lili (depending on what you have and what you want to be good against).

Thoughtseizes make you better vs combo, Jace/Tar Pit/Sylvan make you better against Miracles, Sylvan/Deluge/Lili/Strix/Jace make you better against other fair/midrange decks.

Cool, thanks! I'll post a new list soon


I agree that 4 Hymns seems like a lot, especially if Delver isn't great for your meta. I'd cut 1-2 for any of the options that ironclad suggested, depending on your playstyle. I've loved 1-of Tombstalker, but others' results haven't been as good. If you want to try it, I'd pair it with a 4th Visions, a second Jace, a second Deluge, a Thoughtseize, or an extra MD removal spell.

I have much larger issues with the sideboard. Notion Theif is probably the single worst card that's widely played in Shardless. It's only good in the mirror and against Miracles, and that's at least as much because it costs four and has Flash as because of the card drawing ability. Getting someone with it in response to Brainstorm, a Top flip, or Visions is great, but the floor on the card is being a strictly worse Vendilion Clique. I also think that Surgical Extraction is the worst Graveyard hate available to the deck.

Notion Thief is kind of a pet card. Hahaha. I want to slam it once in response to a brainstorm effect before I die, so I can say that I've truly lived.

What would you recommend for SB options in place for the 3?

I like Surgical because honestly, I've had success with it in Delver. I didn't really think to try anything else... Maybe go with Cage instead?

[ironclad8690]

I have actually really enjoyed Notion Thief vs not only Miracles and Shardless, but also against UW/x Blade, the Hymn version of BUG Delver, Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Storm, Elves, Omnitell, Nic Fit, and even others.

Vs the fair blue decks, especially Miracles, the difference between drawing a card and not drawing a card is so great that I often win almost immediately after casting Notion. It certainly has upped my Deathblade %.

Against the combo decks, it pitches to force and is better to Show and Tell in than Tarmogoyf. I could see not bringing it in vs Storm, but I like upping the blue count, and if they go for the grind plan it can be quite good. Elves I can often survive the first couple turns but then get ground out by their superior card draw (unless I just get the sweeper.dec draw). Thief prevents a Glimpse comeback from an empty board at least.

[btm10]

What would you recommend for SB options in place for the 3?

I like Surgical because honestly, I've had success with it in Delver. I didn't really think to try anything else... Maybe go with Cage instead?

I run a 1/1/1 split of Leyline of the Void/Planar Void/Nihil Spellbomb as my Graveyard hate since you really need those slots to pull their weight against Storm and Lands as well as against Dredge and Reanimator. You lose a bit of utility against Elves, but our other SB options are so good in that matchup that I don't think Cage is a dealbreaker. The reason I don't like Surgical I'm Shardless is that it's a terrible Cascade since you generally want to hit whatever you're Extracting while something is on the stack or your opponent is tapped out. Leyline is generally going to be hardcastable in games you can win, and having it in an opener is great since you already have a strong incentive to mulligan to specific cards in the matchups where you want it.

[ironclad8690]

Looks like my luck is turning around:

5-0

Eldrazi: 2-0
Belcher: 2-0
Sultai Turbo Depths: 2-0
Deathblade: 2-1 (thanks to Notion Thief here)
Miracles: 2-1 (another shout out to Notion Thief)

List in sig is updated. Toxic Deluge #2 has been over-performing. I have also started a new league and am 2-1 (Burn 1-2, Grixis Delver 2-0, Grixis Delver 2-0). I think with my list Grixis is about as good as it can be, they just shit everything onto the board and it just takes 1 Toxic Deluge to turn it around. Having 2 means you find one when you need it.

[Jaytron]

Looks like my luck is turning around:

5-0

Eldrazi: 2-0
Belcher: 2-0
Sultai Turbo Depths: 2-0
Deathblade: 2-1 (thanks to Notion Thief here)
Miracles: 2-1 (another shout out to Notion Thief)

List in sig is updated. Toxic Deluge #2 has been over-performing. I have also started a new league and am 2-1 (Burn 1-2, Grixis Delver 2-0, Grixis Delver 2-0). I think with my list Grixis is about as good as it can be, they just shit everything onto the board and it just takes 1 Toxic Deluge to turn it around. Having 2 means you find one when you need it.

Nice job! I'm really far from making the deck on MTGO myself lol. I only have Grixis Delver on MTGO unfortunately.

Taking into consideration all the recommendations here, this is what I've come up with:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/03-05-16-jQX-shardless-bug/

Moved it over to Tapped out, because mtggoldfish apparently doesn't let you edit or search for your own decks lol. I ended going with Sylvan and Deluge main because my meta is really heavy on the fair decks. Lots of DnT and Delver decks running around.

I have one last slot open in the board. Debating on a TNN to hold that spicy Jitte (my meta is extremely fair) or a Clique to help a bit vs combo? I've really liked EE in Grixis Delver, but it seems like a terrible cascade.

General question for you all:

Vs Combo Vs Fair Decks Vs Miracles... what are your general cuts/bring ins?

I feel like Vs Fair Decks, you just drop forces, and possibly Jace to bring in more removal
-4 FoW -1 Jace,
+ 1 Disfigure +1 Dismember +1 Jitte +2 Golgari Charm..
I want Null Rod/Needle vs SFM decks.. but not sure what else I can drop. Maybe I drop 2 Baleful Strix vs SFM decks to bring in Needle/Null Rod?
Notion Thief would be nice vs blue decks, but I don't think there's room or a need.

Vs Combo

Unsure? Hymn seems bad vs Reanimator/Storm but okay vs other combo decks.

So vs Reanimator:
-2 Baleful Strix -2 Toxic Deluge -1 Maelstrom Pulse -2 Hymn -1 Goyf
+1 Nihil Spellbomb +3 Thoughtseize +1 Notion Thief +1 Null Rod +1 Leyline of the Void +1 Grafdigger's Cage
vs Storm feels like it would be pretty similar. Vs something like Sneak/show favor the hymns and goyf.. drop the grave hate.

Vs Miracles
-4 FoW -1 WL
+2 Golgari Charm +1 Notion Thief +1 Null Rod +1 Pithing Needle

Let me know what you guys think! Also still looking for the last SB card. Maybe more fair deck hate like NoSB or Engineered Plague? Also could be Loam with WL being pretty common in my local meta?

[ironclad8690]

Nice job! I'm really far from making the deck on MTGO myself lol. I only have Grixis Delver on MTGO unfortunately.

Taking into consideration all the recommendations here, this is what I've come up with:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/03-05-16-jQX-shardless-bug/

Moved it over to Tapped out, because mtggoldfish apparently doesn't let you edit or search for your own decks lol. I ended going with Sylvan and Deluge main because my meta is really heavy on the fair decks. Lots of DnT and Delver decks running around.

I have one last slot open in the board. Debating on a TNN to hold that spicy Jitte (my meta is extremely fair) or a Clique to help a bit vs combo? I've really liked EE in Grixis Delver, but it seems like a terrible cascade.

General question for you all:

Vs Combo Vs Fair Decks Vs Miracles... what are your general cuts/bring ins?

I feel like Vs Fair Decks, you just drop forces, and possibly Jace to bring in more removal
-4 FoW -1 Jace,
+ 1 Disfigure +1 Dismember +1 Jitte +2 Golgari Charm..
I want Null Rod/Needle vs SFM decks.. but not sure what else I can drop. Maybe I drop 2 Baleful Strix vs SFM decks to bring in Needle/Null Rod?
Notion Thief would be nice vs blue decks, but I don't think there's room or a need.

Vs Combo

Unsure? Hymn seems bad vs Reanimator/Storm but okay vs other combo decks.

So vs Reanimator:
-2 Baleful Strix -2 Toxic Deluge -1 Maelstrom Pulse -2 Hymn -1 Goyf
+1 Nihil Spellbomb +3 Thoughtseize +1 Notion Thief +1 Null Rod +1 Leyline of the Void +1 Grafdigger's Cage
vs Storm feels like it would be pretty similar. Vs something like Sneak/show favor the hymns and goyf.. drop the grave hate.

Vs Miracles
-4 FoW -1 WL
+2 Golgari Charm +1 Notion Thief +1 Null Rod +1 Pithing Needle

Let me know what you guys think! Also still looking for the last SB card. Maybe more fair deck hate like NoSB or Engineered Plague? Also could be Loam with WL being pretty common in my local meta?

Jace goes vs Delver, but stays in against slower decks/bug Delver with Hymns. Too good of a topdeck and if it survives for longer than a turn you pull so far ahead.

I like Hymn vs Storm, but I usually cut vs Reanimator.

I leave in FOW and Waste vs Miracles, I cut 2 Strixes, 1 Goyf, 1 Deathrite, 1 Ancestral vs Miracles for 1 Sylvan, 1 Vendilion , 1 Notion Thief, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod. I have no idea if this is correct, but it has been working pretty well for me.

[Jaytron]

Jace goes vs Delver, but stays in against slower decks/bug Delver with Hymns. Too good of a topdeck and if it survives for longer than a turn you pull so far ahead.

I like Hymn vs Storm, but I usually cut vs Reanimator.

I leave in FOW and Waste vs Miracles, I cut 2 Strixes, 1 Goyf, 1 Deathrite, 1 Ancestral vs Miracles for 1 Sylvan, 1 Vendilion , 1 Notion Thief, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod. I have no idea if this is correct, but it has been working pretty well for me.

Intteresting on keeping the FoW and WL. I've taken WL out all the time in Delver because they can easily play around it. I don't like FoW because of the card disadvantage. Maybe Shardless doesn't care because it gets so much value otherwise? Do you not bring in Golgari charms in case there's a RiP or Blood Moon? Or just rely on your Decays for those?

[btm10]

I board pretty fluidly based on what my opponent does. Against Miracles I assume they're on the "overload Decay" plan and bring in Golgari Charm to supplement my Decays and MD Maelstrom Pulse, then cut them for game 3 if I didn't see any hateful permanents (though not seeing Blood Moon or RiP usually indicates that something like Ruination is lurking).

But as general guidelines with your 75:

Against Grixis, RUG, or BUG Delver:

-2 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
(-1 Sylvan Library)
+1 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Jitte
(+1 Golgari Charm)

Against BUG Delver with Hymn or Grixis Delver if they try to board into a midrange deck:
-2 Force
-1 Hymn
+1 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Jitte

Against midrange decks:
-4 Force
+1 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Jitte
+1 X (as appropriate; Golgari Charm if you see TNN, Needle/Null Rod/Thoughtseize against Stoneforge Mystic decks, etc.)

Against Death and Taxes

-4 Force
-2 Strix
-1 Vision
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Jitte
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle

against ANT:
-4 Decay
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Strix
-1 Goyf
-1 Forest
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Cage
+1 Leyline
+1 Spellbomb
+1 Null Rod
+1 Golgari Charm

Reanimator is similar, except you cut Hymns and Deluges and leave the Decays and Strix in, and don't bring in Null Rod or Golgari Charm.

Against Sneak and Show:
-2 Decay
-1 Goyf
-1 Tar Pit
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Golgari Charm
+3 Thoughtseize

Against Miracles:
-1 Hymn
-2 Deluge
-1 Bayou
-1 Tropical Island
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Notion Thief
+1 Golgari Charm

Switch the Hymn/Deluge cuts if they have Monastery Mentor.

ironclad - I have to say that I'm surprised that we've come to such different conclusions on basically all of the flex slots.

[Jaytron]

Thanks a bunch for those guidelines! Any reason why you only bring singleton Golgari Charms in some matchups? Just lack of space?

Any recommendations for my last SB slot?

[btm10]

Mostly a lack of space. In most matchups where you want a second Golgari Charm cutting a Visions isn't an issue. As for your last slot, I'd probably go with a Clique, Engineered Plague, Disfigure, Diabolic Edict, or Duress depending on your meta.

Edit: I've been meaning to test a 1-of Hindering Touch somewhere in the 75 since I love squeezing miser's counterspells into Shardless. Forbid and Dissipate were subpar, even though buyback is randomly awesome. Dimir Charm was reliably great when it killed basically every non-Goyf creature in Legacy in addition to being a hard counter for 2/3 of the things you wanted non-Force countermagic for. I had forgotten about the OG Flusterstorm until I found it in a stack of old cards over the weekend. You could always run that as your 15th SB card.

[Jaytron]

Mostly a lack of space. In most matchups where you want a second Golgari Charm cutting a Visions isn't an issue. As for your last slot, I'd probably go with a Clique, Engineered Plague, Disfigure, Diabolic Edict, or Duress depending on your meta.

Edit: I've been meaning to test a 1-of Hindering Touch somewhere in the 75 since I love squeezing miser's counterspells into Shardless. Forbid and Dissipate were subpar, even though buyback is randomly awesome. Dimir Charm was reliably great when it killed basically every non-Goyf creature in Legacy in addition to being a hard counter for 2/3 of the things you wanted non-Force countermagic for. I had forgotten about the OG Flusterstorm until I found it in a stack of old cards over the weekend. You could always run that as your 15th SB card.
Oh man, that card looks sweet. Hahahha

My meta is super fair (lots of dnt and delver), so I was thinking of Engineered Plague or NoSB. There are maybe one or two lands players. Not much combo.

Then again, my mainboard is already pretty biased vs fair decks already. Should I not dedicate more SB slots for it? Maybe a Clique would be nice to help vs combo and Miracles. Maybe just a random flusterstorm? I see Loam played in a lot of sideboards. WL is fairly prevalent in my meta, could be useful?

[ironclad8690]

My meta is super fair (lots of dnt and delver), so I was thinking of Engineered Plague or NoSB. There are maybe one or two lands players. Not much combo.

I might even go with another disfigure, it is very helpful as a 1 mana answer to most things that they play (they will be denying your mana too, so the cost is very important).


Then again, my mainboard is already pretty biased vs fair decks already. Should I not dedicate more SB slots for it? Maybe a Clique would be nice to help vs combo and Miracles. Maybe just a random flusterstorm? I see Loam played in a lot of sideboards. WL is fairly prevalent in my meta, could be useful?

You would think that, but since this is a midrange deck with disruption there are more effective ways of answering your opponents creatures, and as such usually about 1/3 of most Shardless sideboards are for fair decks and the other 2/3 are for Miracles/unfair decks.

I do love Clique, but then again I play online where you are basically guaranteed to play against Miracles 1-3 times in 5 matches.

Flustertorm could be useful, but If you don't have much combo I don't see the point in wasting a slot on a bad cascade. Loam is only really good when you are aheadd/even on board, and vs most decks you will be struggling to come back from behind. I mostly use loam for the midrange mirrors, slower delver decks, and above all else Lands.

[Jaytron]

Thanks for the insight Ironclad!

Yeah, there are a few local miracles players, and one guy that almost always runs lands. Maybe it does just need to be Disfigure for now.

At both btm10 and Ironclad

Vs Miracles, what's the argument against cutting WL?

With Delver, it feels like a pretty dead draw a lot of the time since they'll play around it fairly easily.

btm, I noticed you cut colored sources anyways, why not cut WL instead?

[ironclad8690]

I actually end up winning a lot of games by keeping them off of 4-5 mana so they can't land AND protect Jace with an STP. They can sometimes play around Wasteland, but it's not actually as easy for them to do as you might think. Once they get to 6 mana they can just do a couple high impact things per turn.

If cutting Waste works for you then by all means go for it though.

[btm10]

You can't go wrong with more spot removal in the board, especially if it's turn 1 removal like Disfigure or Dismember.

I cut (nonbasic) colored sources against Miracles because they don't run Wasteland to punish me for it and I plan to fetch Forest early to play around Blood Moon anyway. In addition to ironclad's point about keeping them off of 5+ mana, many Miracles players also don't run basic Mountain (and only 1-2 Volcs) despite many of their best cards in the matchup being Red, which makes the Wastelands that connect better than they otherwise would be. Another use is Wasting their uncracked fetches after a Brainstorm or Ponder, or to making sure you don't get hit by a floating Terminus/Entreat when they flip the Top or even before running out a second/third creature. Most people won't let you just get fetches with Wasteland, and if they do, you know to not run out a creature or hold up Force.

Ultimately Shardless is a deck that you need to find your own approach to. I value mana efficiecy, tempo, and flexibility very highly, which is why I like cards like Dimir Charm, Tombstalker, Force of Will, and Maelstrom Pulse and dislike Notion Theif, Loam, and Jitte, despite lots of people having success with those cards.

[ironclad8690]

Very well said BTM. One of the coolest things about Shardless is that, as a midrange deck, you can pick an approach that works for you/pick the tools that best accomplish that goal.

[Jaytron]

BTM, can I see your list?

[btm10]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Planar Void
1 Sylvan Library

[grahilah]

3-2 in today's league. Beat two reanimator and one storm player, losing to big zoo and miracles. Still very happy with the deck, no changes I've made recently.

[ironclad8690]

So somehow I can't beat Eldrazi all in the sudden. I think I am just having terrible luck, but I am 2-6 vs them in games today, 0-3 in matches. Two versions were Displacer/Reshaper builds, one of which was splashing blue for Eldrazi Skyspawner and Drowner of Hope. The other one was just the usual Eldrazis which I normally stomp. I am now 23-9 vs them, hopefully I start drawing my goyfs soon.

[btm10]

I've actually found the White version, especially Barook's list, significantly harder than the stock colorless versions. I haven't seen blue yet. I think White Eldrazi is still a favorable matchup, it's just not a walkover like the colorless version is. The 3rd piece of SB removal is great, but the ones I've played against bring in Spatial Contortion which can make it somewhat more difficult. Jace is crazy good against them, even better than against colorless. You have to lose your 70/30 matchups 30% of the time, right?

[Jaytron]

Played some games in an 'impromptu legacy night' 15 people turned up, which is actually pretty insane.


R1 vs Grixis Delver
Don't really remember this series, as he just didn't really pressure me hard and early enough and I eventually won through better creatures.
I won G1, off of my T1 ancestral resolving and maybe cascading into another visions at some point. I had so many cards it was insane.

-2 Force -2 Hymn
+2 Disfigure +1 Dismember +1 Jitte

G2 goes sort of long, he eventually lands a Gurmag Angler exiling the only sorcery that's been played shrinking my goyf down to a 4/5. I play shardless on my turn before attacks, cascading blind into Visions. (lol)

R2 vs Reanimator
G1, a T1 DRS basically just locks him out of the game, he dies to a goyf.

-1 Forest -1 Goyf -2 Hymn -2 Toxic Deluge
+3 Thoughtseize +1 Cage +1 Leyline +1 Spellbomb

G2 I get Leyline in my opening hand and open with a Thoughtseize after he thoughtseizes me for my FoW He's left with 3 entombs and something else. I play a cage T2. I play a Shardless T3 cascading into another Thoughtseize. I think I took FoW? AT this point he's drawn 4 Entombs. I cast a Lili and he concedes.

What do you guys think about Lili in the matchup? I feel like it's pretty dangerous unless you just hold it until after they reanimate, or you have active grave hate.

R3 vs Miracles (fastest miracle player I've had the pleasure of playing against)
G1 Grindy game, I got him down to 1 and he entreats for lethal on my turn. Sylvan Library main was an allstar.

-2 Decay -1 Deluge (In hindsight, maybe should have left in decays, dropped hymns as cascading into them twice was lame)
+ Needle +Null Rod +Notion Theif

G2
Won off the back of a large goyf and Tar pit beats.

G3
It felt like he had answers for everything, I don't really remember doing a whole lot that was impactful.

We played a few more post SB games, and so far I don't like siding out colored sources. Multiple times I had to mull because WL was my only land in hand with a DRS and a brainstorm.

[Ephemeron]

What do you guys think about Lili in the matchup? I feel like it's pretty dangerous unless you just hold it until after they reanimate, or you have active grave hate.



You've got exactly the right idea, although I don't think I'd even bother with liliana in the first place against reanimator. The +1 ability is obviously a no-go against them and the creatures they're most likely to reanimate against you are Grave Titan/Griselbrand/Iona naming black, depending on the board state. You'd basically have to play liliana and then just let it sit there as a deterrent for everything except Grave Titan. It's better than Hymn and most of the Abrupt Decays though I guess (I'd keep maybe 2 decay in as a hedge for Animate Dead and JVP post-board).

[ironclad8690]

I am not sure if it is correct to play this way, but against reanimator I usually try to fight their ability to get a creature in the yard with discard/countermagic and then ill play lili on an empty board and just leave her as a proactive diabolic edict. I am usually able to pressure them into having to grave titan or bust.

I leave her in post board because I think there are other marginal cards to take out first, and I play 2 deluge so grave titan zombies are a little less scary to me.

[Jaytron]

You've got exactly the right idea, although I don't think I'd even bother with liliana in the first place against reanimator. The +1 ability is obviously a no-go against them and the creatures they're most likely to reanimate against you are Grave Titan/Griselbrand/Iona naming black, depending on the board state. You'd basically have to play liliana and then just let it sit there as a deterrent for everything except Grave Titan. It's better than Hymn and most of the Abrupt Decays though I guess (I'd keep maybe 2 decay in as a hedge for Animate Dead and JVP post-board).

Decays are also good at hitting the needles they bring in for our DRS. I'm inclined to keep in more Decays than Lilis.


I am not sure if it is correct to play this way, but against reanimator I usually try to fight their ability to get a creature in the yard with discard/countermagic and then ill play lili on an empty board and just leave her as a proactive diabolic edict. I am usually able to pressure them into having to grave titan or bust.

I leave her in post board because I think there are other marginal cards to take out first, and I play 2 deluge so grave titan zombies are a little less scary to me.

Yeah That's all I was really thinking too. You can keep Lili around as an edict, but other than that she doesn't do too much.

[ironclad8690]

4-1 in today's league.

Mud Post: 2-0
Miracles: 0-2
Junk Nic Fit: 2-0
Maverick: 2-0
Junk Nic Fit: 2-1

Some theoretically tough matchups, but somehow I just stomped them. Ancestral Visions MVP in Nic Fit matchups, they have no way to stop the draw 3 and our deck is just more consistent than theirs. My only sideboarding vs Nic Fit is -1 Abrupt Decay +1 Dismember (also answers Siege Rhino and Meren). Maverick was easy, I had decent hands and more than 1 Deluge just swings the matchup so heavily in our favor.

[alasfrica]

2-1 in today's weekly event. It was only an 8 man this week though.

Round 1: Reanimator (4c Variant) 2-0
Turn 1 Deathrite Shaman usually gets there game 1
+1 Force, +1 Cage, +2 Spellbomb, +1 Needle, +1 Surgical, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Clique: -2 Hymn, -2 Liliana, -2 Abrupt Decay, -1 Deluge, -1 Vision
Turn 1 Deathrite controlled for a bit until he got Izzet Charmed, Surgical on his Elesh Norn to finish the game

Round 2: Miracles 1-2
Game 2 was the only game I got. It was really long and he was top-decking while I still had 2-3 cards in hand each turn. He finally draws a Jace and I got to Notion Thief the activation. I think it's the first time that's happened for me. I've only ever got to use Thief against Griselbrands.
+1 G Charm, +1 Notion Thief, +1 Null Rod, +1 Needle, +1 Library, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Deluge, +1 Clique: -2 Hymn, -2 Strix, -2 Tarmogoyf, -2 Force
The games were just your typical grind fests. Monastery Mentor got there the most though

Round 3: Sneak and Show 2-0
This match up is awful and I'm still surprised I didn't drop a game. Early Thoughtseizes took care of his hands and Jace bounced an Emrakul.
+1 Force, +1 Notion Thief, +1 Needle, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Clique: -2 Hymn, -1 Deluge, -2 Decay
I would keep in Hymn but I was on the draw. If I was on the play I would have kept in Hymn and cut Visions. I would rather keep in Visions on the draw because I feel I rely more on Force than Hymn when I'm behind on 1 mana.

SB:
2 Disfigure
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Notion Thief
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique

I didn't notice that the last few posts have discussed Renimator sideboarding. I took out my Lilianas and kept in 2 Abrupt Decays for the matchup. I feel Liliana isn't too great when she's a 3 mana edict effect, especially when my opponent was playing Hapless Researcher. Abrupt Decay is a great answer to Animate Dead as well as Pithing Needles post board.

[ironclad8690]

Back after a jaunt with Miracles.

I learned that Thoughtseize is better against Miracles than I thought, and it is worth it to bring in Meddling Mages naming Terminus. I am not sure exactly what the cuts are, but it was an eye opening experience playing with "the bad guy".

Anyways, is anyone here playing in the legacy challenge? I need to build up my bankroll again, so I will have to skip it unfortunately.

I am going to a Card Kingdom 1k in a week, so I will let you guys know how it goes. Playing the list in my sig, as it seems Miracles is quite present there.

[btm10]

I lost my first two matches to Eldrazi last night, but they were back to back and both were pretty miserable. Their new sideboard plan seems to be to cut Chalices for things that can't be Decayed, which meant stuff like Oblivion Sower, World Breaker, and From Beyond. The games I lost all involved me stumbling on either mana or business, but the lists I saw seem to be much more capable of punishing that than the more aggressive lists. I may move off of my MD Hymns in favor of a second Thoughtseize and a third Liliana.

[ironclad8690]

I lost my first two matches to Eldrazi last night, but they were back to back and both were pretty miserable. Their new sideboard plan seems to be to cut Chalices for things that can't be Decayed, which meant stuff like Oblivion Sower, World Breaker, and From Beyond. The games I lost all involved me stumbling on either mana or business, but the lists I saw seem to be much more capable of punishing that than the more aggressive lists. I may move off of my MD Hymns in favor of a second Thoughtseize and a third Liliana.

Yep, they're finding ways to beat us as time goes on. I was talking with twilder3 on mtgo and he was saying maybe more Pulses would be a good way to go if you experience a lot of Eldrazi and Miracles.

[btm10]

Yep, they're finding ways to beat us as time goes on. I was talking with twilder3 on mtgo and he was saying maybe more Pulses would be a good way to go if you experience a lot of Eldrazi and Miracles.

It's entirely possible that it's the right call now - Eldrazi has driven a lot of combo out of the format, so maybe we should be taking a route similar to the one Lejay proposed, except cutting discard for removal instead of Planeswalkers.

[ironclad8690]

Yes, this might be the best call right now.

It is also always possible for us to play Ensnaring Bridge. Great vs Eldrazi, Reanimator, and Sneak and Show as well. I know Caleb Durward has played it in this deck's sideboard in the past.

Also worth exploring is more Baleful Strixs and possibly Glissa, the Traitor (sick value with Strix/Shardless), and Volrath's Stronghold in place of 1 Wasteland. We have the tools to grind these guys out, it is just whether the meta % increases to that or not.

I went 4-1 in my league today:

Maverick: 1-2

Game 1: I get behind on board and never really do anything because his Knights waste me away while Thalia taxes me.

Game 2: Multiple Deluges get there.

Game 3: Very close game where I am sure I made 1 small mistake that cost me. I let a sylvan library live for the whole game because I had to worry about what was on board, but I think there was at least 1 point where I could have decayed that instead of a DRS that didn't matter. I Had a Goyf on board so I tunneled on removing his creatures and getting there, but that line lost to removal. He also had only 20 seconds on the clock towards the end of the game so I got cocky.

Manaless Dredge w/ Prized Amalgam: 2-1

Game 1: This deck is actually pretty scary. Lost to prized amalgam and ichorid beats into flayer prized amalgam eot triggers.

Game 2: I win with a timely nihil spellbomb into grafdiggers

Game 3: He counters my t1 grafdigger's with disrupting shoal, and I feel like it will be a longshot to win. He doesn't dredge into anymore dredgers though, and this gives me infinite time to exile his yard with DRS.

UWR Vial: 2-0

Game 1: I toxic deluge him multiples times and he can't come back from goyf beats.

Game 2: Pretty much the same as game 1, but with Golgari Charms too.

Ad Nauseam Tendrils: 2-0

Game 1: I leave up DRS on his turns and it forces him to play into FOW, which I protected from cabal therapy with another FOW pitching Shardless.

Game 2: I thoughtseize him multiples times in the opening curve into null rod close game with DRS activations and clique beats.

Miracles: 2-0 (YaTree)

Game 1: Not much of a game, he mulls to 3 and I hymn him. He actually almost comes back with Terminus on DRS DRS Shardless Agent, but I get there after an AV resolves.

Game 2: Very close game, but he gets a mentor and makes a bajillion tokens. I shardless from hellbent into brainstorm into maelstrom pulse while he is tapped out, I pulse his tokens and make him sac mentor with lili. I beat in with Goyf, he terminuses I cast another, he terminuses, I cast another, he terminuses again. I play my last one (lol) and he plays mentor. I attack with a Tarpit cause he is tapped out and the goyf, I decay his mentor in response to him cracking a fetch and he is at 3 so that's game.

I love my current list.

[Jaytron]

Back to shardless again already? Didn't like Miracles?

[ironclad8690]

Back to shardless again already? Didn't like Miracles?

I wanted to have my best/favorite deck for competitive leagues and such coming up. Miracles was fun, but it isn't as good as I thought. A lot of people are gunning for it in ways I didn't understand until I played it.

Also I am too much of a Sol Malka fanboy at this point to give up BG/x

[btm10]

I love my current list.

I'm going to give your maindeck a try for a bit and see how it goes. I'm nervous about floodng on Visions and losing the third MD discard spell, but the second Deluge is very attractive. The alternative may be a 2 Maelstrom Pulse/ 1 Deluge split, which I'll also be testing.

[ironclad8690]

3-2 in today's league.

Miracles: 2-0
Grixis Control: 2-0
Shardless: 2-1
4c Loam: 0-2
Jeskai Moon (Lejay:rolleyes:): 1-2

[MorphBerlin]

So I hope this threat gets some revival back in the DTB section.

I want to rebuild my Sideboeard by also cutting the Meddling mages, because I think even though they are good, they don't justify 4 SB slots anymore because Strom is pushed down by eldrazi.


@ironclad: I looked at your SB but it seems really light vs combo now!?

[ironclad8690]

So I hope this threat gets some revival back in the DTB section.

I want to rebuild my Sideboeard by also cutting the Meddling mages, because I think even though they are good, they don't justify 4 SB slots anymore because Strom is pushed down by eldrazi.


@ironclad: I looked at your SB but it seems really light vs combo now!?

I haven't been having issues. I have a great win % vs storm, I don't face sneak and show often (admittedly a bad matchup), and reanimator/dredge I can beat half the time or so. Belcher is an autowin.

[Whitefaces]

So I hope this threat gets some revival back in the DTB section.

I want to rebuild my Sideboeard by also cutting the Meddling mages, because I think even though they are good, they don't justify 4 SB slots anymore because Storm is pushed down by eldrazi.


@ironclad: I looked at your SB but it seems really light vs combo now!?

Meddling Mages aren't just for Storm, it's any combo. If you're running discard in the maindeck then you may not need them, but if you're not then you need very high impact cascades.

Storm is absolutely still about too, at least here in Europe. There's consistently been a copy in almost every top 8 at the major events, usually more.

Here's my current list with some SBing notes if anyone is interested, it's most likely what I take to GP Prague.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
1 Life from the Loam
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Scrubland
4 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

Miracles
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Wasteland

If on Mentor/heavy Snaps and Cliques additionally
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
-1 Wasteland

Lands
+1 Scrubland
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Leyline of the Void
+2 Duress
+1 Pithing Needle
-4 Ancestral Vision
-2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Baleful Strix
-2 Abrupt Decay

Grixis Delver
+1 Scrubland
+2 Duress
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

RUG Delver
+1 Scrubland
+2 Duress
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

BUG Delver
+2 Duress
-2 Force of Will

Storm
+1 Scrubland
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Leyline of the Void
+2 Duress
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Null Rod
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
-1 Swamp
-4 Tarmogoyf
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Life from the Loam
-4 Abrupt Decay

Mirror
No changes

Elves
+1 Scrubland
+4 Meddling Mage
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Duress
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
-1 Swamp
-2 Deathrite Shaman
-4 Tarmogoyf
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Life from the Loam

Death and Taxes
+1 Scrubland
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
-4 Force of Will

Eldrazi
No changes

[James718]

I am new to this deck, the lists vary greatly and it's a little confusing. SOme lists run Hymns, some use thoughtseizes some don't even run discard. I see lists with no jaces, no lillis, both of them, some lists have a garruk. Im a little confused here and looking for direction. how do i decide on what to play? Is this just preference?

[ironclad8690]

It is pretty much just preference. Some people like that have the greatest chance vs combo, so their lists contain more discard, whereas others prefer to try to beat up on fair decks, so they run more planeswalkers and sweepers. It is really up to you.

[MorphBerlin]

Meddling Mages aren't just for Storm, it's any combo. If you're running discard in the maindeck then you may not need them, but if you're not then you need very high impact cascades.

Storm is absolutely still about too, at least here in Europe. There's consistently been a copy in almost every top 8 at the major events, usually more.

Here's my current list with some SBing notes if anyone is interested, it's most likely what I take to GP Prague.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
1 Life from the Loam
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Scrubland
4 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Ror

Elves
+1 Scrubland
+4 Meddling Mage
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Duress
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
-1 Swamp
-2 Deathrite Shaman
-4 Tarmogoyf
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Life from the Loam

Eldrazi
No changes

I have been playing the deck for months now but thank you for explaining to me again that Meddling mage is not just for storm and how MD discard works. Obviously you need them because this list is what 5-95 G1 vs storm? NOSB seems like a wasted slot in the MU because when they empty they empty on the first or second turn to overun you in my experience. And with 2 Deluge and 1 NOSB this seems really overkill. I would much rather fight their ability to storm of. And i would never take out all Tarmos, because representing a significant clock is really important

Your list seems really weak against miracles without hymns,sylvan library or Tar pit. You are leaning heavily on the 2 Jaces vs them right?

Dures vs lands seems skethy. It is only good turn 1 or 2 I would imagine, and is really a bad draw after that.

Against all delver decks the lack of additional spot removal in the SB seems like a liability, you cant lean on resolving Deluge and NoSB in my experience in this MUs especially with running only 1 Basic (which is also bad vs Blood Moon and Lands)

Against elves the Duress seems bad, most of them are taking out NO or are allready on a grindy plan (chaos elves) and then you have only GSZ as a target. I dont like boarding out all goys or even DRS here too, because while it is true that it can be easily be chumped/blanked, you need something to finish the game? Or are you trying to strictly go for the Jace ultimate?

[ironclad8690]

I dont like bearding out all goys

http://i.imgur.com/yhtcms3.jpg

I, personally, am a fan of bearding out all goyfs

[MorphBerlin]

http://i.imgur.com/yhtcms3.jpg

I, personally, am a fan of bearding out all goyfs

:tongue::tongue::tongue:

[Whitefaces]

I have been playing the deck for months now but thank you for explaining to me again that Meddling mage is not just for storm and how MD discard works. Obviously you need them because this list is what 5-95 G1 vs storm? NOSB seems like a wasted slot in the MU because when they empty they empty on the first or second turn to overun you in my experience. And with 2 Deluge and 1 NOSB this seems really overkill. I would much rather fight their ability to storm of. And i would never take out all Tarmos, because representing a significant clock is really important

Your list seems really weak against miracles without hymns,sylvan library or Tar pit. You are leaning heavily on the 2 Jaces vs them right?

Duress vs lands seems sketchy. It is only good turn 1 or 2 I would imagine, and is really a bad draw after that.

Against all delver decks the lack of additional spot removal in the SB seems like a liability, you cant lean on resolving Deluge and NoSB in my experience in this MUs especially with running only 1 Basic (which is also bad vs Blood Moon and Lands)

Against elves the Duress seems bad, most of them are taking out NO or are allready on a grindy plan (chaos elves) and then you have only GSZ as a target. I dont like boarding out all goys or even DRS here too, because while it is true that it can be easily be chumped/blanked, you need something to finish the game? Or are you trying to strictly go for the Jace ultimate?

Apologies, that came across more condescending than I realised! Didn't mean to state the obvious so...well, obviously :tongue:

IMO boarding for combo is about maximising cascades. While NosB isn't ideal, it is still another 'answer' to Empty, Dark Confidant and Xantid Swarm (though I doubt this comes in vs us) and can't be cascaded into. This is the reason to take out Tarmogoyf (straight swap for Meddling Mage) as you want that dice to roll in your favour. Cascading into Goyf is just miserable as it doesn't disrupt them at all and you're still adding some pressure to the board in the form of Agent.

After board vs storm this is the curve under 3 for agent to hit.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Meddling Mage
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod

I've not had a problem with Miracles using this list, you can out grind them without Hymn and Library just by playing patiently.

Discard vs lands on the draw is a lot worse than on the play, granted, but they're always siding into more non-land cards (Molten Vortex, Krosan Grip, Choke, Abrupt Decay possibly) and forcing a Crop Rotation is pretty big. I didn't used to bring discard in vs lands but was surprised how effective it is.

The deck is pretty well set up to beat delver already, you think there should be more removal? 4 Decay, 3 Strix, 1 Pulse, 2 Liliana and 2 Deluge seems like a lot.

The one basic is a concern, I may add a forest. That skews the mana quite a lot though, would have to be something like.

4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

And the Scrubland in the SB becomes a Savannah.

Does Elves side out Natural Order vs Shardless? We only have Force of Will to counter it, seems great vs us. In my experience they side out some number of Heritage Druids, Nettle Sentinels, Birchlore Rangers etc.

DRS looks ridiculous vs theirs and goyf is blanked by Symbiote or Ranger + Dryad Arbor. Scooze + cradle even more so.

[halahel]

I am new to this deck, the lists vary greatly and it's a little confusing. SOme lists run Hymns, some use thoughtseizes some don't even run discard. I see lists with no jaces, no lillis, both of them, some lists have a garruk. Im a little confused here and looking for direction. how do i decide on what to play? Is this just preference?

It depends on your meta and/or what you expect to play against. It also depends on the match-ups you fear/struggle with. I've played Shardless since 2014, and I've gone through a few different permutations. I now lean toward a more discard-heavy build, as I want the deck to have a fighting chance Game 1 against Combo. You'll often see builds constructed to beat Miracles (main-deck Sylvan, 2 Jace), or "fair" creature decks (one or more main-deck toxic deluge), etc.

What's great about Shardless is that, unlike a lot of tiered Legacy decks, you can very much customize it to your personal taste and play-style.

[MorphBerlin]

Apologies, that came across more condescending than I realised! Didn't mean to state the obvious so...well, obviously :tongue:

The deck is pretty well set up to beat delver already, you think there should be more removal? 4 Decay, 3 Strix, 1 Pulse, 2 Liliana and 2 Deluge seems like a lot.

The one basic is a concern, I may add a forest. That skews the mana quite a lot though, would have to be something like.

4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland


No offense taken :)

Vs delver (and DnT): The only reliable removal of this list is Decay, because I feel it can be difficult to get to 3 Mana for 5 of the removal spells (actually even 4 because of Daze). Strix can be boltet. Lili can be blacked by YP, so they is not that reliable. And decaying will expose you to wasteland without a forest (for strix you need 1 dual at least also), wich seems to make it hard to get to the follow up 3cmc removal.

Disfigure or Dismember is just so good vs them, answering their first threat or Angler and being hard to daze it buys a lot of time for the bigger removal spells.

So I am curious how you typically win vs elves, Jace? Tarmo is also good on defense because you dont have to worry about Nettle slowly pickung you life total.

What do you dislike of the "normal' Manabase?:

3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Delta
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

+Scrub from SB

[ironclad8690]

2-3 in another league.

Grixis Delver: 2-0
BUG Delver: 2-1
Eldrazi: 1-2
Manaless Dredge: 1-2
Burn: 0-2

[ironclad8690]

2-3 again

RW Stax: 1-2
Grixis Delver: 2-0
BUG Delver: 0-2
ANT: 2-1
ANT: 0-2

[ironclad8690]

Put Thoughtseizes back in the maindeck just to get a change of pace. Went 3-2

Miracles: 0-2 (Nahiri version, couldn't pressure Nahiri fast enough)
Miracles: 2-0 (regular version)
Miracles: 2-0 (regular version)
Dragon Stompy: 2-0
Sneak and Show: 1-2

I did enjoy Thoughtseizes a couple times vs Miracles, opening on t1 taking a Top 1 game and clearing the way for Jace in the 2nd game

[ironclad8690]

So I tried doing things that I didn't understand/hated that other people do (moved Toxic Deluge to the sideboard etc) and ended up with this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge

Maybe it's a coincidence, but I am now 4-0 with this list vs Eldrazi, Miracles (AnziD, who said I broke his 13 match winning streak against shardless. They were a very close 3 games!), Grixis Delver, and UR Delver. I hope I win that last one and get the elusive 5-0!

[btm10]

Sweet, good luck finishing up. Have the MD changes come up at all?

Also, I'm increasingly convinced that the Liliana slots are better as Maelstrom Pulse and Thoughtseize postboard against Miracles.
Those cards just do the things I'm hoping that Liliana will accomplish - removing random permanents and forcing key spells like Jace through - and aren't nearly as susceptible to bad interactions with Flash creatures, nor do they fight with our core game plan of never running out of gas while holding up Force for Ruination/Entreat/From the Ashes. The discard spells are bad late game topdecks, but we want to hit at least 6 land drops against Miracles, so Brainstorming excess discard away in the mid-to-late game is a completely reasonable line and has the added benefit of letting us play out our lands, which is especially important if you're running Tar Pits.

[ironclad8690]

Sweet, good luck finishing up. Have the MD changes come up at all?

Also, I'm increasingly convinced that the Liliana slots are better as Maelstrom Pulse and Thoughtseize postboard against Miracles.
Those cards just do the things I'm hoping that Liliana will accomplish - removing random permanents and forcing key spells like Jace through - and aren't nearly as susceptible to bad interactions with Flash creatures, nor do they fight with our core game plan of never running out of gas while holding up Force for Ruination/Entreat/From the Ashes. The discard spells are bad late game topdecks, but we want to hit at least 6 land drops against Miracles, so Brainstorming excess discard away in the mid-to-late game is a completely reasonable line and has the added benefit of letting us play out our lands, which is especially important if you're running Tar Pits.

Thanks!

The maindeck changes have come up, having 2 Tar Pit and 2 Wasteland feels like a nice balance. I know people, myself included, have been on the 3 wasteland 1-2 tar pit split, but 2 and 2 feels the smoothest.

I have really enjoyed Jace 2 given the amount of Miracles I face. He definitely eats a REB postboard vs Miracles, but through AV, Force, Tar Pit, AND Jace, we spread those REBs quite a bit. Heck sometimes they even have to REB a shardless to keep a jace alive/not take lethal.

You know, Gerry T played a Liliana-less list in the MOCS and I am wondering if it is the way to go right now.

Here is his list for reference:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
1 Baleful Strix
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Disfigure
2 Pithing Needle
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sylvan Library
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm

[ironclad8690]

Woohoo! 5-0 after beating Storm in 2 games :)

There is a matchup where having a Thoughtseize game 1 to Brainstorm into is really good. Also the more I play that matchup the more I realize just having a DRS up with a black mana on their turn makes it super awkward for them to try to go off.

I think I might try this list in the upcoming Card Kingdom tourney this weekend :) Feels super consistent and hits all the right spots (Miracles, Grixis Delver g2 & g3 feel decent 55% while g1 still feels 45%, Eldrazi is nice, etc). I am really liking 4 Thoughtseize g2-3 vs combo decks as well.

[Ephemeron]

Woohoo! 5-0 after beating Storm in 2 games :)

There is a matchup where having a Thoughtseize game 1 to Brainstorm into is really good. Also the more I play that matchup the more I realize just having a DRS up with a black mana on their turn makes it super awkward for them to try to go off.

I think I might try this list in the upcoming Card Kingdom tourney this weekend :) Feels super consistent and hits all the right spots (Miracles, Grixis Delver g2 & g3 feel decent 55% while g1 still feels 45%, Eldrazi is nice, etc). I am really liking 4 Thoughtseize g2-3 vs combo decks as well.

Nice! Congrats on the 5-0. List looks pretty close to mine except I'm still having to use Life from the Loam in the board because here on the east coast Lands (and to a lesser extent Aggro Loam) is everywhere. If I were to do an online league though I'd drop it for sure though.

I don't get the 1 basic land in GerryT's list. Having a single basic swamp isn't going to do shit to keep you from losing to Blood Moon or Wasteland except in magical christmas land where Miracles has no way of dealing with your DRS before they Moon you. I'm sure Gerry has forgotten more about Shardless than I've ever known, but I'm just kinda missing the deckbuliding philosophy there. I think the deck either needs Forest and Swamp or no basics at all.

[ironclad8690]

Nice! Congrats on the 5-0. List looks pretty close to mine except I'm still having to use Life from the Loam in the board because here on the east coast Lands (and to a lesser extent Aggro Loam) is everywhere. If I were to do an online league though I'd drop it for sure though.

I don't get the 1 basic land in GerryT's list. Having a single basic swamp isn't going to do shit to keep you from losing to Blood Moon or Wasteland except in magical christmas land where Miracles has no way of dealing with your DRS before they Moon you. I'm sure Gerry has forgotten more about Shardless than I've ever known, but I'm just kinda missing the deckbuliding philosophy there. I think the deck either needs Forest and Swamp or no basics at all.

Yeah, it is even more interesting to me that he decided to cut liliana, one of the reasons to even play a swamp in the first place because of BB (also Hymn), and then cuts the forest. I have found that forest is way more important than swamp, but swamp at least lets you fetch into un-wastelandable decay mana.

[nantukoavatar]

Hey guys it has been a few weeks, work has been crazy but tonight I had a play testing party with 5 other guys. I was talking about Meddling Mage, I like what it does in theory but I was screwed a few times by not naming the right card, or by the mana. Having a trop, scrub, and waste means you can't cast shardless.

With that in mind a friend suggested Arcane Laboratory. Has anyone tested with this? It seems like it would be just better than Mage in a lot of causes. I get that coming down a turn slower is a real cost against combo, but getting to open up a slot in your board to not play a land is a real benefit.

Without any testing, it seems like it would be better against decks like elves, storm, and tin fins to name a few. The nice thing is that it shuts down cantrips, and makes our force uncounterable. It is also more forgiving when you might not know which sideboard tech they have.

Anyway wondering what the groups thought is.

[Ephemeron]

Arcane Lab is legit, I used to play it when storm was one of the most popular decks in legacy. Eldrazi's uprising has kinda kept Storm in check recently though so I've dropped it. If you're expecting to face a lot of those decks you mentioned though, it's a great card for sure since it's impossible for them to win if you have it in play. If you didn't totally hate the white splash you could also try Ethersworn canonist since you can actually cascade into that and it doesn't stop Shardless cascade.

[surface33]

@morphberling
I would say against D&t toxic is your best card. The MU comes up to mirran crussader, if they manage to play its your only chance to win, and if you resolve it, chances are you will win. It is true is hard to reach 4-5 mana in these games but in my experience if you get to them you have a favorable mu. This is one of the reasons why i like the meddling mage SB, people tend to underestimate the possibility of siding in the scrubland against mana denial decks when it can be game changing. I didn't do it against d&t at the start but came to the conclusion(after a lot of testing) that is the best idea.

Recently I have been playing the following list but was considering taking one hymn to the side and bringing sykvan ibrary to the main deck. I think sylvan is a card that wins games on its own while being good against almost any deck, hymn despite improving our best MU can be hard to cast against delver decks. What do you think? also has anyone tried jitte as well?

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

3 Ancestral Vision
4 hymn to tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 misty rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 creeping tar pit
1 hissing quagmire

SB:
1 Scrubland
2 Meddling Mage
1 vendilion clique
1 thoughtseize
1 toxic deludge
1 golgari charm
1 umezawas jitte
1 desfigure
1 sylvn library
1 surgical extraction
1 gravediggers cage
1 baleful strix
1 primordial seal
1 Null Rod

[ironclad8690]

So I registered this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor <---hedge against miracles
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit <---hedge against miracles

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
1 Sylvan Library

Shardless: 1-2 (he had Volrath's Stronghold which is the most insane card in the mirror ever, even better than Notion Thief. My wasteland-light approach couldn't handle it. He also found it every game)
UR Delver: 2-0
Angry Loam: 2-1
Infect: 2-1
Sneak and Show (Chris VanMeter): 1-2
Angry Loam: 2-0

I ended up 9th on breakers :(, 2 12 pointers made it in but not me. I had fun though, and I got to meet some really cool people (like lordofthepit). I also got to crush Aggro Loam and lucksack against infect on camera :)

I was really expecting a lot of Miracles, but next time I think I will play 3 wastelands 1 tar pit because it was not as present as I thought it would be. Only 2 in the whole room. Also 2 Jace was too many, I think either a 3rd baleful strix or maybe some maindeck thoughtseizes may have been better.

[ironclad8690]

Guys Volrath's Stronghold is awesome!

I have been testing it since I lost to it yesterday and it makes pyroblast so bad for Miracles. You just keep putting Shardless on top, and they can't REB it profitably. Only STP or Terminus "deal" with it. Also it makes Counterspell bad vs Goyf and DRS

[btm10]

Guys Volrath's Stronghold is awesome!

I have been testing it since I lost to it yesterday and it makes pyroblast so bad for Miracles. You just keep putting Shardless on top, and they can't REB it profitably. Only STP or Terminus "deal" with it. Also it makes Counterspell bad vs Goyf and DRS

It's been great in slow matchups when I tried it, but I've reliably hated it against Delver and Death and Taxes. It's like Jitte in that I think it's both very slow and very polarized.

[kentheide]

So I registered this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor <---hedge against miracles
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit <---hedge against miracles

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
1 Sylvan Library

Shardless: 1-2 (he had Volrath's Stronghold which is the most insane card in the mirror ever, even better than Notion Thief. My wasteland-light approach couldn't handle it. He also found it every game)
UR Delver: 2-0
Angry Loam: 2-1
Infect: 2-1
Sneak and Show (Chris VanMeter): 1-2
Angry Loam: 2-0

I ended up 9th on breakers :(, 2 12 pointers made it in but not me. I had fun though, and I got to meet some really cool people (like lordofthepit). I also got to crush Aggro Loam and lucksack against infect on camera :)

I was really expecting a lot of Miracles, but next time I think I will play 3 wastelands 1 tar pit because it was not as present as I thought it would be. Only 2 in the whole room. Also 2 Jace was too many, I think either a 3rd baleful strix or maybe some maindeck thoughtseizes may have been better.

How many players? Only 2 miracles, but how many Eldrazi?

[ironclad8690]

37 People I think, only 2 Eldrazi

[matunos]

Hi,

I was the round 1 opponent ironclad8690 played at CK, and I've advocated for Volrath's Stronghold on here before.

I will be the first to admit, it's not always great. While I did get lucky to draw it pretty early on in my games against ironclad, where it's pretty good, I also drew it early on in other matches where it was no better than a basic Wastes.

That being said, I still like it over a third Wasteland (or 2nd Tar Pit). I just don't like playing the mana denial game in most cases with Wasteland, so having three or more seems unnecessary to me. As already stated, Stronghold is good in grindy matchups, including the mirror. It's occasionally good against Miracles, but not particularly- sometimes you get to recycle a Baleful Strix that they countered or destroyed but your guys aren't typically hitting the yard very much; on the other hand your Wastelands generally aren't going to be doing much against them either. I've only played it against RUG once, and in that case it was just fantastic because my opponent couldn't find a Wasteland for it; it also helped that he was a little slow on the uptake and kept swinging into my Shardless Agent to let me recycle it more. Currently I have a Life from the Loam in the sideboard, so a Wasteland isn't necessarily the end of the the Stronghold fun.

On Saturday I played Eldrazi in the semis, only maybe the 2nd time I've played Eldrazi with Shardless (the first being online), and Stronghold was magical there. They really have few ways to deal with it. Obviously, they can kill you before it's a factor, but if you can stay alive long enough, it can really pay dividends.

The MVP of the day for me was Sylvan Library, though. I think it's gonna be a mainstay in my main deck for a long time.

Anyway, here was my 75:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Sylvan Library

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Life from the Loam


I don't have a full tournament report but here's how my day went:

Round 1: vs Shardless (see ironclad8690's post above) - Win
Round 2: vs Bant Post Ramp (you can see this deck at work in Round 1 of the coverage, at https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/67783020) - Win
Round 3: vs Miracles (on coverage) - Win
Round 4: vs Miracles - Loss
Round 5: vs Enchantress - Win
Round 6: Draw into Top 8

Quarters: vs Eldrazi - Win
Semis: vs Miracles (same opponent as round 4) - Loss

[JohnBell]

Hi,

I was the round 1 opponent ironclad8690 played at CK, and I've advocated for Volrath's Stronghold on here before.

I will be the first to admit, it's not always great. While I did get lucky to draw it pretty early on in my games against ironclad, where it's pretty good, I also drew it early on in other matches where it was no better than a basic Wastes.

That being said, I still like it over a third Wasteland (or 2nd Tar Pit). I just don't like playing the mana denial game in most cases with Wasteland, so having three or more seems unnecessary to me. As already stated, Stronghold is good in grindy matchups, including the mirror. It's occasionally good against Miracles, but not particularly- sometimes you get to recycle a Baleful Strix that they countered or destroyed but your guys aren't typically hitting the yard very much; on the other hand your Wastelands generally aren't going to be doing much against them either. I've only played it against RUG once, and in that case it was just fantastic because my opponent couldn't find a Wasteland for it; it also helped that he was a little slow on the uptake and kept swinging into my Shardless Agent to let me recycle it more. Currently I have a Life from the Loam in the sideboard, so a Wasteland isn't necessarily the end of the the Stronghold fun.

On Saturday I played Eldrazi in the semis, only maybe the 2nd time I've played Eldrazi with Shardless (the first being online), and Stronghold was magical there. They really have few ways to deal with it. Obviously, they can kill you before it's a factor, but if you can stay alive long enough, it can really pay dividends.

The MVP of the day for me was Sylvan Library, though. I think it's gonna be a mainstay in my main deck for a long time.

Anyway, here was my 75:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Sylvan Library

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Life from the Loam


I don't have a full tournament report but here's how my day went:

Round 1: vs Shardless (see ironclad8690's post above) - Win
Round 2: vs Bant Post Ramp (you can see this deck at work in Round 1 of the coverage, at https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/67783020) - Win
Round 3: vs Miracles (on coverage) - Win
Round 4: vs Miracles - Loss
Round 5: vs Enchantress - Win
Round 6: Draw into Top 8

Quarters: vs Eldrazi - Win
Semis: vs Miracles (same opponent as round 4) - Loss

How is it best way to win against Miracles?
I've some problem with this MU...:frown:

[ironclad8690]

There are some very delicate gamestates that you want to get into:

1) Where you are pressuring them enough to make them not have enough mana each turn to do everything they want

2) Hymning them down backed up by pressure so they have to dig with top every turn and you tempo them out that way

3) Not overcomitting too many creatures to the board. If you already have a Shardless Agent and a Deathrite Shaman do not cast another deathrite or shardless given the chance (for example).

4) Don't waste Shardless Agents. If there is nothing Abrupt Decayable on board maybe think twice about casting that Shardless Agent (unless you need the pressure right away).

5) Gain small advantages and never leave yourself open to missing out on incremental damage. On of the hardest parts of this matchup is using DRS correcctly. Do not try to exile STP from their yard if they are representing Snap -> STP mana, you will get blown out. Instead aim for something they can't cast (whether that is because they don't have enough mana or it is a sorcery out of main phase). That being said, if they don't have snap mana up exile that STP so they can't use it in the future!

6) Try not to activate creeping tar pit into open mana unless it is your only attacker and you have to.

7) Get a feel for when you really need to use your abrupt decays. If you are too frivolous and use it on a Snapcaster or something you might get locked by countertop.


I know these are kind of abstract, but do your best to finish them before the game goes too long. Don't board out Force of Will, it leads to very good tempo plays, and we have to assume that role in this matchup.

Make sure you have enough cards to board in. Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Library, Flash creatures, planeswalkers, etc.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

There are some very delicate gamestates that you want to get into:

1) Where you are pressuring them enough to make them not have enough mana each turn to do everything they want

2) Hymning them down backed up by pressure so they have to dig with top every turn and you tempo them out that way

3) Not overcomitting too many creatures to the board. If you already have a Shardless Agent and a Deathrite Shaman do not cast another deathrite or shardless given the chance (for example).

4) Don't waste Shardless Agents. If there is nothing Abrupt Decayable on board maybe think twice about casting that Shardless Agent (unless you need the pressure right away).

5) Gain small advantages and never leave yourself open to missing out on incremental damage. On of the hardest parts of this matchup is using DRS correcctly. Do not try to exile STP from their yard if they are representing Snap -> STP mana, you will get blown out. Instead aim for something they can't cast (whether that is because they don't have enough mana or it is a sorcery out of main phase). That being said, if they don't have snap mana up exile that STP so they can't use it in the future!

6) Try not to activate creeping tar pit into open mana unless it is your only attacker and you have to.

7) Get a feel for when you really need to use your abrupt decays. If you are too frivolous and use it on a Snapcaster or something you might get locked by countertop.


I know these are kind of abstract, but do your best to finish them before the game goes too long. Don't board out Force of Will, it leads to very good tempo plays, and we have to assume that role in this matchup.

Make sure you have enough cards to board in. Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Library, Flash creatures, planeswalkers, etc.

This is something I will try. I've been having a little trouble, as well. I'm taking this to a monthly win-a-box on Saturday, and I'm playing it because there are a couple eldrazi players and a bunch of fair stuff and basically no combo besides dredge and a modern-esque version of elves with Collected Company. There are also a couple of Infect lists, but I was wondering if you could give me tips on the Merfolk matchup, there are 3 lists at the shop I go to, and it could be a bad matchup for me as far as I can tell. Boarding advice and strategy would be helpful if you have a little time. Maybe I will make room for Clique in my board, though, unless Jitte is better for some reason for my meta.

Thanks in advance. I'm slowly reading the thread, so if this is in here somewhere, sorry, but I haven't had time to get through the whole thing.

[MorphBerlin]

This is something I will try. I've been having a little trouble, as well. I'm taking this to a monthly win-a-box on Saturday, and I'm playing it because there are a couple eldrazi players and a bunch of fair stuff and basically no combo besides dredge and a modern-esque version of elves with Collected Company. There are also a couple of Infect lists, but I was wondering if you could give me tips on the Merfolk matchup, there are 3 lists at the shop I go to, and it could be a bad matchup for me as far as I can tell. Boarding advice and strategy would be helpful if you have a little time. Maybe I will make room for Clique in my board, though, unless Jitte is better for some reason for my meta.

Thanks in advance. I'm slowly reading the thread, so if this is in here somewhere, sorry, but I haven't had time to get through the whole thing.

What helped me is to be really patient with my FOW. I think you should only use it to force Jace or Entreat. Maybe Mentor?Blood Moon if you do not have an answer. Also Forcing through a Jace you slam on T3 or 4 is really good (They should not have UU or R up in a perfect world in that scenario).

[btm10]

The only thing I'd add is to acoid needlessly throwing stuff away to Liliana if you don't board them out. I've gone to cutting Liliana completely postboard and just leaving my MD discard in. We want to be using it strategically, either to tempo them out like ironclad said, or to force key spells through countermagic, or to sequence our other plays properly. More and more people are running Predict lately, which keeps our Hymns and Thoughtseizes productive longer. We just don't care about most of their cards. Mentor isn't scary without multiple Tops or a substantial grip on their side. Snapcaster is similarly unimpressive as a 3-drop Baleful Strix variant and can typically be safely ignored/eaten with Goyf rather than Decayed in most situations. I'm up to 2 Pulses postboard, and I keep a Deluge in the main as a hedge against Mentor.

[ironclad8690]

Merfolk is tough to give advice for. You will either get removal + pressure or you will just keep drawing ancestral visions or FOW when you need removal.

Definitely board out FoW, Null Rod is worth it because they bring in Jitte and Chalice, you want as much extra removal as possible from your board. If they have misdirection there will be many opportunities for them to screw you, and I don't think I have ever won after having an Ancestral Vision or Hymn misdirected.

Try to capitalize on their creature light draws is the best I can say. Sometimes they will just keep drawing gas/lords/TNN/phantasmal, their deck is sort of made to do this as consistently as possible. If you have an opportunity to Thoughtseize a Silvergill out of their hand, take it. The CA they get from Silvergill is often how they overwhelm our removal heavy draws. Try to save wasteland for manlands unless you get a really good opportunity like no vial and missed land drop or something.

Don't decay Chalice on 1 or 0 unless you REALLY need to, like when you have an Ancestral Vision on 1 counter.

Don't forget that in dire times you can wasteland your own island if you only have 1 to block their lords.

In my experience this matchup is maybe 45/55, but it could be 50/50.

[btm10]

I've also found Merfolk to be close most of the time, but I think it's slightly in our favor. Try as hard as possible to operate off of just Swamp, Forest, Bayou, Bayou so the fish have to rumble with your Goyfs. They usually don't have removal so DRS will typically be enough to support your Blue cards. This obviously also makes Tar Pit excellent as a non-island Blue source. Toxic Deluge is great, as is anything that shuts down their artifacts. Liliana also shines.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Merfolk is tough to give advice for. You will either get removal + pressure or you will just keep drawing ancestral visions or FOW when you need removal.

Definitely board out FoW, Null Rod is worth it because they bring in Jitte and Chalice, you want as much extra removal as possible from your board. If they have misdirection there will be many opportunities for them to screw you, and I don't think I have ever won after having an Ancestral Vision or Hymn misdirected.

Try to capitalize on their creature light draws is the best I can say. Sometimes they will just keep drawing gas/lords/TNN/phantasmal, their deck is sort of made to do this as consistently as possible. If you have an opportunity to Thoughtseize a Silvergill out of their hand, take it. The CA they get from Silvergill is often how they overwhelm our removal heavy draws. Try to save wasteland for manlands unless you get a really good opportunity like no vial and missed land drop or something.

Don't decay Chalice on 1 or 0 unless you REALLY need to, like when you have an Ancestral Vision on 1 counter.

Don't forget that in dire times you can wasteland your own island if you only have 1 to block their lords.

In my experience this matchup is maybe 45/55, but it could be 50/50.

Thanks, all of you, I suppose I should have posted what I'm working with.

4 DRS
2 Strix
4 Goyf
4 Agent
1 'Stalker

3 Vision
4 BS
4 FoW
2 T-Seize/Hymn (Not sure which for my meta, currently on the seizes, as I prefer the choice, plus I'm not very lucky)
1 Library
4 Decay
1 Pulse
1 Deluge
1 Liliana (Not 100% sure I want it main, but if it's good against fair decks and merfolk, I think it has to stay)
2 Jace

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 CTP
2 Wastes
1 Trop
2 Bayou
3 Sea
2 Misty
4 Verdant
4 Delta

And my sideboard I'm still unsure of:

1 TNN
1 Clique
1 Needle
1 N. S-Bomb
1 G. Cage
1 DoN
1 N. Rod
1 Jitte
1 Library
1 G. Charm
1 Deluge
1 N. Thief
2 Leyline
1 Flex - Suggestions would be great but right now I've got a Duress here.

If there is something you would do different, I'm interested. This is what I've been testing for almost a month now, and I've been playing Junk previous to this. There are some similarities but other things still feel a bit foreign. I often feel light on removal, but as far as I can tell I'm not being choosy enough with it, and same goes for my Forces, I think. With a meta like mine, lots of creature-based decks and fair strategies, do you think something like Propaganda is a decent strategy, just to slow their clock down and give you time to stabilize/race?

[ironclad8690]

In a creature meta I would probably look to some sort of recurring removal engine, such as Volrath's Stronghold/Baleful Strix or Darkblast. Pernicious Deed is awesome in the sideboard too. Trying Garruk Relentless more lately, he can be great vs creature decks and Miracles especially.

I would probably play the Hymns over the Seizes in a creature meta. More chance of hitting high impact 3 drops.

Jitte is great in that sort of meta too. Takes over the game completely even with no way to tutor.

[JohnBell]

Isn't Invasive Surgery better Vs ANT/TES then Surgical Extraction?
If the opponent resolve a Infernal Tutor could be too late but if we counter it and exile all the copy for he/she is more difficult win. I'm getting this all wrong?:confused:

[H]

Isn't Invasive Surgery better Vs ANT/TES then Surgical Extraction?
If the opponent resolve a Infernal Tutor could be too late but if we counter it and exile all the copy for he/she is more difficult win. I'm getting this all wrong?:confused:

Well, that would sort of depend on a number of things:

First, how quickly and reliably you are getting Delirium.

Second, in this deck, are you willing to take the risk of Cascading into this?

Third, are you willing to sacrifice the versatility of Surgical Extraction, since it can hit any Type card, to be brought in versus something like Dredge?

Fourth, Surgical can be cast for free where Surgery costs mana always.

I'm not saying you want either card, but indeed, versus a Storm deck, I think Surgery is better than Surgical, however, I long ago gave up on trying to bring in Surgical versus a Storm deck, so YRMV.

[Serch]

Hello there,

Recently I made two playmats for my this deck, feel free to use/print it if u like it :tongue:

(Vintage playmat with Ancestral Pyramid + Jester Mask)

http://i.imgur.com/syHVq2f.jpg

(Landscape with Liliana, Jace, Tarmogoyf, ancestral pyramid, baleful strix and jester mask)

http://i.imgur.com/p1s1mLC.jpg

I hope you like it, cheers.

[matunos]

Isn't Invasive Surgery better Vs ANT/TES then Surgical Extraction?
If the opponent resolve a Infernal Tutor could be too late but if we counter it and exile all the copy for he/she is more difficult win. I'm getting this all wrong?:confused:

More likely you'll just end up exiling all copies of Cabal Therapy or Duress instead.

[Whit3boy316]

So I registered this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor <---hedge against miracles
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit <---hedge against miracles

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
1 Sylvan Library

Shardless: 1-2 (he had Volrath's Stronghold which is the most insane card in the mirror ever, even better than Notion Thief. My wasteland-light approach couldn't handle it. He also found it every game)
UR Delver: 2-0
Angry Loam: 2-1
Infect: 2-1
Sneak and Show (Chris VanMeter): 1-2
Angry Loam: 2-0

I ended up 9th on breakers :(, 2 12 pointers made it in but not me. I had fun though, and I got to meet some really cool people (like lordofthepit). I also got to crush Aggro Loam and lucksack against infect on camera :)

I was really expecting a lot of Miracles, but next time I think I will play 3 wastelands 1 tar pit because it was not as present as I thought it would be. Only 2 in the whole room. Also 2 Jace was too many, I think either a 3rd baleful strix or maybe some maindeck thoughtseizes may have been better.

How did you beat infect?

[surface33]

Hey guys, just wanted to talk about the land problems this deck may have. Today i just top8'ed a 76 man tournament with the following results(I posted the list on page 98):
affinity(2-0)
Team america(1-2)
jund(2-0)
Elves(2-0)
Reanimator(2-1)
Miracles(2-0)
grixis delver(1-1)(I would have won the third game but i didn't have enough time

In the top8 i lost against grixis delver drawing only one land on each game(which were wasted) despite doing 2 mulligans. The question is the following, are you having mana issues with the deck? It happens really often to me, I get hands with 2 lands that cannot survive two wastelands and have issues against one. Same goes for stifle.
Not sure if its just me or if thats the price we pay for playing this deck. I played deathblade a couple of years ago and i dont recall having this mana problems despite being a 4 color deck. The only solution i can thinkof is going up to 23 lands or adding one ponder instead of a hymn to tourach

[Whit3boy316]

Does anyone know of any type of "guide to sideboarding" i actually have a really hard sideblarding with this deck

[Whit3boy316]

Hey guys, just wanted to talk about the land problems this deck may have. Today i just top8'ed a 76 man tournament with the following results(I posted the list on page 98):
affinity(2-0)
Team america(1-2)
jund(2-0)
Elves(2-0)
Reanimator(2-1)
Miracles(2-0)
grixis delver(1-1)(I would have won the third game but i didn't have enough time

In the top8 i lost against grixis delver drawing only one land on each game(which were wasted) despite doing 2 mulligans. The question is the following, are you having mana issues with the deck? It happens really often to me, I get hands with 2 lands that cannot survive two wastelands and have issues against one. Same goes for stifle.
Not sure if its just me or if thats the price we pay for playing this deck. I played deathblade a couple of years ago and i dont recall having this mana problems despite being a 4 color deck. The only solution i can thinkof is going up to 23 lands or adding one ponder instead of a hymn to tourach

I actaully jusy went to 21 lands......have yet to test it. I have a pretty high wasteland meta so i hate it

[ironclad8690]

How did you beat infect?

I drew the good half of my deck and he didn't have quite enough to fight through it. 1 Daze and I would have been done for.

As far as grixis I get these problems a lot too. I am just thankful most lists have moved away from Stifle because that wrecks us (Lili -2 your Gurmag, Stifle gg).

You just have to fetch basics when you can and try to crack fetches on their upkeep to make them "waste a turn" (only works sometimes but better than on your turn).

I can certainly see why some people have moved to 23 lands, I personally have not because I hate flooding out against miracles.

A ton of match ups are feeling incredibly close right now, all the other tier 1s are giving me a run for my money. I think maybe now is a good time to try some extreme innovations. Something similar to what lejay did but in a different direction.

[surface33]

I actually feel quite comfortable against the majority of the field. The only issue is the ands, i see a lot of wastelands right now and im siding in the scrubland in all thus mu

[Whit3boy316]

I drew the good half of my deck and he didn't have quite enough to fight through it. 1 Daze and I would have been done for.

As far as grixis I get these problems a lot too. I am just thankful most lists have moved away from Stifle because that wrecks us (Lili -2 your Gurmag, Stifle gg).

You just have to fetch basics when you can and try to crack fetches on their upkeep to make them "waste a turn" (only works sometimes but better than on your turn).

I can certainly see why some people have moved to 23 lands, I personally have not because I hate flooding out against miracles.

A ton of match ups are feeling incredibly close right now, all the other tier 1s are giving me a run for my money. I think maybe now is a good time to try some extreme innovations. Something similar to what lejay did but in a different direction.

Go old school.....0 FOW
I kinda like the thought of being able to add maybe a jitte, disfigure, and 2nd jace to the deck over my 3 fow

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I got 4th today, with my only two losses (2-1-1 in swiss, won first round of top 8, but lost in top 4) being to Dredge (Same player). I'll post more detailed posts in a day or two. Thanks for your help, I'll be playing this list with a slightly edited sideboard at a PPTQ in Denver next month, so I'll be on here with questions. I played against Burning Reanimator, a rogue MBC list with Sinkholes, wastelands, Hymns, Chains of Mephist., lili, Chalice, Bridge, you get the drift, Dredge, the draw was an intentional one for 4th round to get into top 8. BG NicFit is what he called it, it was. It's not as good without blue... We played for fun, 2-0'd him. Top 8...paired up against him. Beat him again, 2-1. For Semi-Finals? Dredge. Oh well, 8 packs I pulled Nahiri and Jace, so, I didn't win a box, but I think I'll be okay.

The showing was low, probably due to the weekend holiday, it will be more competitive in Denver, hope I can get adequately prepared. I misplayed a couple times today, but not bad enough that I think it really mattered. Nothing I lost was ever close enough to have mattered as far as I can tell.

[ironclad8690]

Dredge is a very weird matchup. Sometimes they will uust get the nut that only Grafdigger's can beat, but you can't really mull a DRS hand.

Remember, you can stop them in their upkeep/draw step with triggers on the stack to DRS their shit. I have eaten many a Narcomoeba that way (many Dredge players will try to play fast so that you miss crucial opportunities).

Magic online really helped my dredge matchup by visually picturing the triggers going on the stack, I always imagine the interface when I play in paper now.

[MorphBerlin]

Dredge is a very weird matchup. Sometimes they will uust get the nut that only Grafdigger's can beat, but you can't really mull a DRS hand.

Remember, you can stop them in their upkeep/draw step with triggers on the stack to DRS their shit. I have eaten many a Narcomoeba that way (many Dredge players will try to play fast so that you miss crucial opportunities).

Magic online really helped my dredge matchup by visually picturing the triggers going on the stack, I always imagine the interface when I play in paper now.

Dredge is just an annoying deck, it will never be a good deck because it folds so easy to hate. It's performance just goes and up and down depending on how much hate people pack... If somebody plays it a your LGS regulary you have to use more sb than in usual and then hope on your luck to draw DRS and SB-Hate...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Dredge is a very weird matchup. Sometimes they will uust get the nut that only Grafdigger's can beat, but you can't really mull a DRS hand.

Remember, you can stop them in their upkeep/draw step with triggers on the stack to DRS their shit. I have eaten many a Narcomoeba that way (many Dredge players will try to play fast so that you miss crucial opportunities).

Magic online really helped my dredge matchup by visually picturing the triggers going on the stack, I always imagine the interface when I play in paper now.

What sideboard slots do you dedicate to it? What do you target with DRS, and when? I tried to think critically and I almost got there, and I misplayed once, playing a Golgari Charm in his upkeep instead of in his drawstep, allowing 2x Narcomoeba to ETB and win the game. I messed up, and it lost me a game. It's a demoralizing deck to play against twice in 6 rounds. I'd have to mess with my sideboard, and maybe I will, but I don't really know if it pays to board that way against it.

[MorphBerlin]

any combination of: Cage, Spellbomb, Leyline, Planar void, Surgical

Be patient with spellbomb and don"t fire it of too fast.

G. Charm doesnt seem too good, because it cant kill the Zombies, but still gets Narco and Ichorid. I would also board in sweepers if you have more in the SB. You can kill your own guys to get rid of bridge. Without it I think you can mostly handle their stuff.

[Krimson Viper]

Been on hiatus for a long time, this was the deck I came back to(I'll still always love Burn). I did fairly well with it today at a small ten man tournament going undefeated taking first. I beat an old Standard Kamigawa block deck, a mono red aggro deck that was piloted very well and constructed very well, Miracles, and Grixis Delver. Don't really have a tournament report, but I do have questions about side boarding options against Miracles and Grixis Delver. My deck list:

4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Strix
4 Agent
1 Clique

2 LotV
1 JtMS

1 Sylvan Library

4 Ancestral Visions
4 BS
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn
1 Deluge
1 Pulse
3 FoW

3 U. Sea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
1 Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland

SB
1 Needle
2 Spellbomb
1 Extraction
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Jitte
1 G. Charm
1 Arcane Lab
1 Deluge
1 FoW

Against Miracles, I sided like this:

Out 2 Goyf, Clique, 1 Visions, 1 LotV
In Needle, Rod, Deluge, (i think charm if not, Extraction) and FoW

My thinking was Lili isn't that great it feels as they play off the top of their deck fairly well, but I want force him to sac something and lower his hand count because his hand is still relevant. Goyf is a beater, but there's no real value behind him and removal a plenty from Miracles. Out a visions because Counter-Top land reveal is a SoB, and Clique gets bounced all day long not closing out the game. I was thinking about using Extraction to help lower the stressing of my removal. Extract Mentor, Top, or Balance, and my game gets easier.

Against Delver, I sided like this:

Out FoW, Jace, 1 Lili, 1 Visions
In 2 Disfigure, 1 Jitte, 1 Charm, 1 Deluge, 1 Extraction

I'm going to grind them out, so FoW isn't good here. I'll never get to Jace, Lili may or may not be good here, I wasn't sure, and visions because I wanted business instead of just durdles. I think I would have been fine leaving it in and not bringing in Extraction. I thought about Extraction to snap Angler out of here and not have to worry about something outgoyfing my goys.

Please, comment about my deck list and on my side boarding strategies. I can really use help in that area. Thank you!

[JohnBell]

Been on hiatus for a long time, this was the deck I came back to(I'll still always love Burn). I did fairly well with it today at a small ten man tournament going undefeated taking first. I beat an old Standard Kamigawa block deck, a mono red aggro deck that was piloted very well and constructed very well, Miracles, and Grixis Delver. Don't really have a tournament report, but I do have questions about side boarding options against Miracles and Grixis Delver. My deck list:

4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Strix
4 Agent
1 Clique

2 LotV
1 JtMS

1 Sylvan Library

4 Ancestral Visions
4 BS
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn
1 Deluge
1 Pulse
3 FoW

3 U. Sea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
1 Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland

SB
1 Needle
2 Spellbomb
1 Extraction
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Jitte
1 G. Charm
1 Arcane Lab
1 Deluge
1 FoW

Against Miracles, I sided like this:

Out 2 Goyf, Clique, 1 Visions, 1 LotV
In Needle, Rod, Deluge, (i think charm if not, Extraction) and FoW

My thinking was Lili isn't that great it feels as they play off the top of their deck fairly well, but I want force him to sac something and lower his hand count because his hand is still relevant. Goyf is a beater, but there's no real value behind him and removal a plenty from Miracles. Out a visions because Counter-Top land reveal is a SoB, and Clique gets bounced all day long not closing out the game. I was thinking about using Extraction to help lower the stressing of my removal. Extract Mentor, Top, or Balance, and my game gets easier.

Against Delver, I sided like this:

Out FoW, Jace, 1 Lili, 1 Visions
In 2 Disfigure, 1 Jitte, 1 Charm, 1 Deluge, 1 Extraction

I'm going to grind them out, so FoW isn't good here. I'll never get to Jace, Lili may or may not be good here, I wasn't sure, and visions because I wanted business instead of just durdles. I think I would have been fine leaving it in and not bringing in Extraction. I thought about Extraction to snap Angler out of here and not have to worry about something outgoyfing my goys.

Please, comment about my deck list and on my side boarding strategies. I can really use help in that area. Thank you!

Interesting...
Can you do an analysis of the MU (decks to beat)? In more difficult beat Miracles or Grixis?

[Krimson Viper]

Interesting...
Can you do an analysis of the MU (decks to beat)? In more difficult beat Miracles or Grixis?

I'm not quite sure I understand your question? Not trying to be an anus here, but I'm genuinely unsure what you're asking.

[Jaytron]

I'm not quite sure I understand your question? Not trying to be an anus here, but I'm genuinely unsure what you're asking.

I think he wants your SB plans vs Miracles, Grixis, Mirror, DnT, Eldrazi.

Then he wants to know which is more difficult, Miracles or Grixis.

I feel like Shardless is favored vs both.

[surface33]

I think he wants your SB plans vs Miracles, Grixis, Mirror, DnT, Eldrazi.

Then he wants to know which is more difficult, Miracles or Grixis.

I feel like Shardless is favored vs both.

I think is favored against miracles but if grixis plays stifle and wasteland it can be a really tough MU. Bringing the scrubland from the side if you have it can help a lot.

[surface33]

Against Miracles, I sided like this:

Out 2 Goyf, Clique, 1 Visions, 1 LotV
In Needle, Rod, Deluge, (i think charm if not, Extraction) and FoW

My thinking was Lili isn't that great it feels as they play off the top of their deck fairly well, but I want force him to sac something and lower his hand count because his hand is still relevant. Goyf is a beater, but there's no real value behind him and removal a plenty from Miracles. Out a visions because Counter-Top land reveal is a SoB, and Clique gets bounced all day long not closing out the game. I was thinking about using Extraction to help lower the stressing of my removal. Extract Mentor, Top, or Balance, and my game gets easier.

Against Delver, I sided like this:

Out FoW, Jace, 1 Lili, 1 Visions
In 2 Disfigure, 1 Jitte, 1 Charm, 1 Deluge, 1 Extraction

I'm going to grind them out, so FoW isn't good here. I'll never get to Jace, Lili may or may not be good here, I wasn't sure, and visions because I wanted business instead of just durdles. I think I would have been fine leaving it in and not bringing in Extraction. I thought about Extraction to snap Angler out of here and not have to worry about something outgoyfing my goys.

Please, comment about my deck list and on my side boarding strategies. I can really use help in that area. Thank you!

Against miracles if any I side out one goyf, the pressure it make is more important. I usually side out 2 baleful, 2 liliana and maybe toxic deludge. Toxic I am not sure if its the correct decision but generally with abrupt decay I have enough. Regarding Vendilion i actually bring her in, its one of our answers to jace, not just because you can put it back into the library but because it can be cast when they tap out for jace and kill it.

Against delver strategies I think your strategy is good. One interesting thing to try is siding out hymns instead of fows. Before I always liked leaving hymns like you, however reading through the TA thread I came across some arguments from a guy who won several big tournaments that he recommends shardless players to leave in fow, the reason for this is drs. In his opinion, which I agree, drs is the card that wins this MU. the mana advantage and being able to respond to our shaman activations makes them a valid fow target. I feel more comfortable agaisnt TA with this strategy, it is 0 mana cost answer that can save you from threats. I would leave lili against TA and side it out against grixis.


A part from that as personal preference I would play 3 AV and 4 fows.

[Krimson Viper]

I think he wants your SB plans vs Miracles, Grixis, Mirror, DnT, Eldrazi.

Then he wants to know which is more difficult, Miracles or Grixis.

I feel like Shardless is favored vs both.
Ah! Ok. Well, I'm kind of winging it as I go. I did a little bit of thinking, a lot reading, and now I'm putting things into practice. My sideboard strategies against Grixis and Miracles have already been revealed.

Against Mirror, I simply take out Forces and bring in two Disfigure and the Jitte. The reasoning behind FoW out is that I know this deck will grind people out, card advantage is the real issue here, so two for one against yourself is something I seriously feel bad doing. The Disfigure kills DRS and opposing Goyfs and since this is a creature battle, Jitte does this repeatedly while closing the game out quickly. Maybe out Clique for another Deluge if the opponent likes to really aggro out, maybe?

For DnT, this is definitely in our favor, but D&T players that are actually good play extremely tightly. One false move on your part and it will be all over. I've thought about keeping FoW in for Vials, but that's feels like a bad idea, so they come out along with Jace and one Visions. Tons of card draw already, and it might be hit with Spirit of the Labyrinth if it's ran. Jace and Lili will be hit with Needle effects, but Lili is cheaper through taxing and kills things. Disfigure is brought in as cheap removal, Rod to blank all of their artifacts, Charm for mass removal and an answer to RIP, along with regeneration if Cataclysm is cast(total blowout). Deluge is brought in because Crusader is such a beast, especially with a weapon attached. I also think another card should be taken out to bring in Krosan Grip, but I'm not entirely sure what card. Clique, maybe? I haven't really found a use for Clique outside of combo match ups. I'm probably playing her wrong. Grip seems amazing here though, so I would probably side out Clique for it. Kills all equipment, stops Jitte, Vial and Skull by surprise, kills RIP, Revoker, it just seems to do a lot now that I think about it.

Don't know about Eldrazi. This wasn't a deck when I stepped away and I haven't read anything about this match up other than we are favored. Deck construction seems to be a factor in that running three Wastes instead of two can mean a world of difference. I would definitely bring Clique out here and bring in Deluge. I feel like they want to flood the board and our smaller creatures are outclassed. Go Goyf or go home. Except for Strix. Go Goyf/Strix or go home. :P

Out of all of my match ups, I feel like Miracles is the hardest. So many mind games, so many guesses, so many big events to overcome just to try and stay in the game, not just to win. Delver is just a swingy match up and it's over quickly. I much prefer quick deaths than slow ones. I almost never quit though.
Against miracles if any I side out one goyf, the pressure it make is more important. I usually side out 2 baleful, 2 liliana and maybe toxic deludge. Toxic I am not sure if its the correct decision but generally with abrupt decay I have enough. Regarding Vendilion i actually bring her in, its one of our answers to jace, not just because you can put it back into the library but because it can be cast when they tap out for jace and kill it.

Against delver strategies I think your strategy is good. One interesting thing to try is siding out hymns instead of fows. Before I always liked leaving hymns like you, however reading through the TA thread I came across some arguments from a guy who won several big tournaments that he recommends shardless players to leave in fow, the reason for this is drs. In his opinion, which I agree, drs is the card that wins this MU. the mana advantage and being able to respond to our shaman activations makes them a valid fow target. I feel more comfortable agaisnt TA with this strategy, it is 0 mana cost answer that can save you from threats. I would leave lili against TA and side it out against grixis.


A part from that as personal preference I would play 3 AV and 4 fows.
Wouldn't keeping Strix in be ok due to being a roadblock? I could be over thinking that, however. As I'm typing this, I'm realizing that I will probably die in one shot. I agree about Lili. She seems underwhelming whenever I draw her, especially on a board where Mentor is already out. She seems less impactful these days. I honestly feel like Goyf can be a detriment here though. One landed RIP and Goyf AND DRS are useless. DRS feels like the better of the two because of his uses. I will try out your strategy though. I'm arguing to better understand the ideas behind the decisions.

I have to disagree completely with siding out Deluge. I've played against Mentor centric Miracles and there's just too many things to kill and four Decays aren't enough. Wiping the board is usually what one deck doesn't want the other to do, but doing it when we want helps. It's also why I bring Grip in in this match up. I want to kill all of their things. Not just because I hate their deck. No... No, it's because I hate their deck. >:D I'll try Clique out against Miracles. I haven't ever, yet.

I don't understand the acronym use of "TA," and why four FoW and less Visions?

[ironclad8690]

TA is Team America, or BUG Delver w/Hymn to Tourach.

Clique is very good against Miracles because you can also play it in response to the Miracle trigger. They have to reveal the card before they can play it, and while that is on the stack you can Clique and put that card on the bottom of their library. Can lead to a blowout when you have a large goyf on the board or stop them from making some angels.

[surface33]

Ah! Ok. Well, I'm kind of winging it as I go. I did a little bit of thinking, a lot reading, and now I'm putting things into practice. My sideboard strategies against Grixis and Miracles have already been revealed.

Against Mirror, I simply take out Forces and bring in two Disfigure and the Jitte. The reasoning behind FoW out is that I know this deck will grind people out, card advantage is the real issue here, so two for one against yourself is something I seriously feel bad doing. The Disfigure kills DRS and opposing Goyfs and since this is a creature battle, Jitte does this repeatedly while closing the game out quickly. Maybe out Clique for another Deluge if the opponent likes to really aggro out, maybe?

For DnT, this is definitely in our favor, but D&T players that are actually good play extremely tightly. One false move on your part and it will be all over. I've thought about keeping FoW in for Vials, but that's feels like a bad idea, so they come out along with Jace and one Visions. Tons of card draw already, and it might be hit with Spirit of the Labyrinth if it's ran. Jace and Lili will be hit with Needle effects, but Lili is cheaper through taxing and kills things. Disfigure is brought in as cheap removal, Rod to blank all of their artifacts, Charm for mass removal and an answer to RIP, along with regeneration if Cataclysm is cast(total blowout). Deluge is brought in because Crusader is such a beast, especially with a weapon attached. I also think another card should be taken out to bring in Krosan Grip, but I'm not entirely sure what card. Clique, maybe? I haven't really found a use for Clique outside of combo match ups. I'm probably playing her wrong. Grip seems amazing here though, so I would probably side out Clique for it. Kills all equipment, stops Jitte, Vial and Skull by surprise, kills RIP, Revoker, it just seems to do a lot now that I think about it.

Don't know about Eldrazi. This wasn't a deck when I stepped away and I haven't read anything about this match up other than we are favored. Deck construction seems to be a factor in that running three Wastes instead of two can mean a world of difference. I would definitely bring Clique out here and bring in Deluge. I feel like they want to flood the board and our smaller creatures are outclassed. Go Goyf or go home. Except for Strix. Go Goyf/Strix or go home. :P

Out of all of my match ups, I feel like Miracles is the hardest. So many mind games, so many guesses, so many big events to overcome just to try and stay in the game, not just to win. Delver is just a swingy match up and it's over quickly. I much prefer quick deaths than slow ones. I almost never quit though.
Wouldn't keeping Strix in be ok due to being a roadblock? I could be over thinking that, however. As I'm typing this, I'm realizing that I will probably die in one shot. I agree about Lili. She seems underwhelming whenever I draw her, especially on a board where Mentor is already out. She seems less impactful these days. I honestly feel like Goyf can be a detriment here though. One landed RIP and Goyf AND DRS are useless. DRS feels like the better of the two because of his uses. I will try out your strategy though. I'm arguing to better understand the ideas behind the decisions.

I have to disagree completely with siding out Deluge. I've played against Mentor centric Miracles and there's just too many things to kill and four Decays aren't enough. Wiping the board is usually what one deck doesn't want the other to do, but doing it when we want helps. It's also why I bring Grip in in this match up. I want to kill all of their things. Not just because I hate their deck. No... No, it's because I hate their deck. >:D I'll try Clique out against Miracles. I haven't ever, yet.

I don't understand the acronym use of "TA," and why four FoW and less Visions?
The toxic decision is complcated. If they play the heavy mentor version I could see it staying, however it is dead card in many situatiob
ns against miracles and i really dont want that.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

any combination of: Cage, Spellbomb, Leyline, Planar void, Surgical

Be patient with spellbomb and don"t fire it of too fast.

G. Charm doesnt seem too good, because it cant kill the Zombies, but still gets Narco and Ichorid. I would also board in sweepers if you have more in the SB. You can kill your own guys to get rid of bridge. Without it I think you can mostly handle their stuff.

This is simply too vague of an answer.

The question again,


What sideboard slots do you dedicate to it (and I suppose I should have been more specific; How many, and why also)? What do you target with DRS, and when? I tried to think critically and I almost got there, and I misplayed once, playing a Golgari Charm in his upkeep instead of in his draw step, allowing 2x Narcomoeba to ETB and win the game. I messed up, and it lost me a game. It's a demoralizing deck to play against twice in 6 rounds. I'd have to mess with my sideboard, and maybe I will, but I don't really know if it pays to board that way against it.

The G. Charm isn't there to be used against Zombies unless it's to give yourself one more turn. If they have enough zombies to worry about, you use it to regen your guys after blocks. If you are -1/-1ing everything, shouldn't it be during their draw step after Narcomoeba and Ichorid are both in play before they can flashback their Dread Return profitably, or to kill Strix to exile their bridges. It has more uses than some of the cards in the deck for the match-up. Grafdigger's had an active role in me losing a game, as it made Shardless useless, which is more than a little irritating. Also, unfortunately, I never saw Spellbomb, so that's not even an issue, but I've been playing Tormod's Crypt for around 16 years, and I assume since it's the same basic function, it plays the same. I tried to surgical his only dredger on turn 1 after he plays a Faithless Looting, but he just played LED and popped it the next turn and flashback'ed the Faithless Looting and it didn't matter.

Is Leyline of the Void really playable as a 2-of? Is it effective often enough on turn 4? I know you can use DRS to accelerate into it, but should you tap it against Dredge?

Thanks

[MorphBerlin]

This is simply too vague of an answer.

The question again,

The G. Charm isn't there to be used against Zombies unless it's to give yourself one more turn. If they have enough zombies to worry about, you use it to regen your guys after blocks. If you are -1/-1ing everything, shouldn't it be during their draw step after Narcomoeba and Ichorid are both in play before they can flashback their Dread Return profitably, or to kill Strix to exile their bridges. It has more uses than some of the cards in the deck for the match-up. Grafdigger's had an active role in me losing a game, as it made Shardless useless, which is more than a little irritating. Also, unfortunately, I never saw Spellbomb, so that's not even an issue, but I've been playing Tormod's Crypt for around 16 years, and I assume since it's the same basic function, it plays the same. I tried to surgical his only dredger on turn 1 after he plays a Faithless Looting, but he just played LED and popped it the next turn and flashback'ed the Faithless Looting and it didn't matter.

Is Leyline of the Void really playable as a 2-of? Is it effective often enough on turn 4? I know you can use DRS to accelerate into it, but should you tap it against Dredge?

Thanks

1) Sure I would bring in g. charm too, I was just saying it is not a total bomb. It has enough applications to board it in especially as we have so much dead stuff.

2) I don't know what you mean but cascade and cage don't get each other's way as the card is cast from exile. Why would we play it in the SB if it was activily hurting us?

3) spellbomb and crypt are besically the same yes, one is free, the other let's you replace itself.

4) Why would you surgical a dredger? they have so many different types of them and so many ways to get them in the GY, I allways aim for the bridges, because I feel I can handle their shenenigans without the endless stream of Zombies. There can be scenarios where I would get other stuff like Ichorid, Narco. But Bridge should be#1

[ironclad8690]

Shardless casts from exile so Grafdigger's doesn't stop it.

Leyline is fine because it is basically a 5th/6th card to mulligan into along with Deathrite and whatever other hate, and has the bonus of winning on the spot on most occasions. Nihil/Surgical don't always win on the spot. You can always cast it on turn 3 with a DRS too, which is still fine if you have slowed them down a little.

Grave hate in SeaTac was at an all time low, with most people playing Meddling Mage instead and just relying on DRS and 1 Grafdigger's, which is too low for general meta but a good metagame call if you only expect Storm and Show and Tell, which apparently worked for Andres Prost.

I prefer to supplement Grafdigger's with 2 of either Surgical (because of punishing fire/lands/Loam), Nihil (for when you really want to exile the whole yard, like Dredge or Zombardment), or Leyline (because it wins on the spot usually).

Along with DRS, that should give you enough to fight through most GY matchups. Unfortunately space is tight enough to have to cut the Meddling Mage sideboard if you want good grave hate.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hmm, I didn't ever seem to read it that way, weird. Well, that will make things a bit easier. I wondered why no one else had a problem with it, I just couldn't see the forest for the trees. Thanks, that helps.

[surface33]

This is simply too vague of an answer.

The question again,



The G. Charm isn't there to be used against Zombies unless it's to give yourself one more turn. If they have enough zombies to worry about, you use it to regen your guys after blocks. If you are -1/-1ing everything, shouldn't it be during their draw step after Narcomoeba and Ichorid are both in play before they can flashback their Dread Return profitably, or to kill Strix to exile their bridges. It has more uses than some of the cards in the deck for the match-up. Grafdigger's had an active role in me losing a game, as it made Shardless useless, which is more than a little irritating. Also, unfortunately, I never saw Spellbomb, so that's not even an issue, but I've been playing Tormod's Crypt for around 16 years, and I assume since it's the same basic function, it plays the same. I tried to surgical his only dredger on turn 1 after he plays a Faithless Looting, but he just played LED and popped it the next turn and flashback'ed the Faithless Looting and it didn't matter.

Is Leyline of the Void really playable as a 2-of? Is it effective often enough on turn 4? I know you can use DRS to accelerate into it, but should you tap it against Dredge?

Thanks

Why would you surgical a dredger n turn 1? Sorry but I find it hard to understand since we have plenty of additional targets that actually win games. If you wasted a surgical extraction and they manage to get another dredger there, which they probably will you will have a hard time.Also golgari charm seems almost useless in the mu.

[H]

I would certainly use Deathrite to eat a Turn 1 Dredger, if I was on the play and that was the only one they had put in the 'yard.

Indeed, I have to agree that the priority in Surgical targets would be Bridge, then Narcomeba, perhaps Therapy (very situational, but it does come up). I wouldn't Surgical a dredger simply because (as others have pointed out), they are very redundant and so taking out one will rarely do much. I also, in general wouldn't Surgical a Inchorid, or a Bloodghast, because those cards are extremely slow. If they can beat me with just those two cards, well, they got me because my draw must have been awful besides the Surgical.

Between Spellbomb and Crypt, I would lean toward Spellbomb, because in Legacy Dredge is not as fast as it is in Vintage. In Vintage, I like Crypt because, one, it's zero CMC doodges Mental Misstep, can come down faster in case I need to Demonic Tutor for it, allows me to be more mana efficient in case I mull to a low-mana hand. Now, in Legacy, things are different since there is no Mental Misstep or Demonic Tutor. Dredge is also slower, unless they just flat-out nut-draw you. Another factor in Legacy, as opposed to Vintage, is that you will probably only have ~3 'yard hate cards in your board, where in Vintage you would have ~7, so mulliganing to hate is much harder in Legacy.

Therefor, considering this, I would rate Spellbomb much higher here than Crypt. The ability to get a card back from Spellbomb can be a difference maker, in my mind, since you might have had to mull pretty low to get there. The chances that they kill you turn 2 are pretty small, so I feel it is worth the risk. That said, as others have stated, Cage is likely better anyway, since it works against Elves too and has no bearing on your Cascades.

I don't think Leyline is good enough as a 2-of and possibly not even as a 3-of, because in this deck, especially, you are low on ways to protect it. Unless they are playing Manaless, it is the easier of the hate-cards often played for them to plan around and beat, since they know about it as the game starts.

[btm10]

I don't think Leyline is good enough as a 2-of and possibly not even as a 3-of, because in this deck, especially, you are low on ways to protect it. Unless they are playing Manaless, it is the easier of the hate-cards often played for them to plan around and beat, since they know about it as the game starts.

I really like Cage in a world without Lands, but I want my graveyard hate to work against them as well as Storm, Dredge, and Reanimator. As one of the people running 1-of Leyline, I chose it as my last piece of grave hate specifically because it can't be cascaded into while also providing a significant upside if I happen to have it in my opener. At the same time, the other two cards in my graveyard package are Spellbomb and Planar Void, so any of the three is live in my opener, but awkward 4 mana topdecks are minimized.

[surface33]

I really like Cage in a world without Lands, but I want my graveyard hate to work against them as well as Storm, Dredge, and Reanimator. As one of the people running 1-of Leyline, I chose it as my last piece of grave hate specifically because it can't be cascaded into while also providing a significant upside if I happen to have it in my opener. At the same time, the other two cards in my graveyard package are Spellbomb and Planar Void, so any of the three is live in my opener, but awkward 4 mana topdecks are minimized.

I have to say that playing a 1-of leyline seems like a bad decision. It is a 4cmc card that you side in against some of the fastest decks in the format,storm reanimator and dredge.And not just that, if you get to turn 4 without dying and you cast it, it doesnt even affect the cards that are already on the gy. You just said it, the best part of the card is the fact that it can start in the board, then you should try to maximize this going to 3-4 copies if any.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So why do we not play Ravenous Trap? It costs 4 so you can avoid cascading into it, it seems pretty good. I mean, I guess it can be discarded before you can cast it sometimes, but overall I can't see it being worse than Leyline of the Void.

About Crypt Vs. Spellbomb: I didn't mean why not Crypt over Bomb, I just meant it's essentially the same card, and I've been playing Crypt a long time, so I am pretty sure I play them correctly most of the time. It just never showed up. Ever.

Denver can be fairly combo-y as far as the local meta is concerned. You lose your graveyard hate if you do the white splash, right? It's possible that it's worth it, but what's the minimum number of Mages you play? 2? 4 seems like too many slots.

[btm10]

I have to say that playing a 1-of leyline seems like a bad decision. It is a 4cmc card that you side in against some of the fastest decks in the format,storm reanimator and dredge.And not just that, if you get to turn 4 without dying and you cast it, it doesnt even affect the cards that are already on the gy. You just said it, the best part of the card is the fact that it can start in the board, then you should try to maximize this going to 3-4 copies if any.

You aren't keeping hands without meaningful interaction in the matchups where you're boarding in graveyard hate, and its a much better card to open on than Planar Void or Spellbomb while also being a superior topdeck in the midgame (you've likely either held down the fort with Deathrites or Spellbombed your opponent once if you've lasted that long) that doesn't get cast off of Agent when you need to hit discard or a draw spell. I didn't just make my sideboard up based on what I had lying around the last time I played.

EDIT: What sort of combo do you typically see in Denver? I've always been a fan of Phyrexian Revoker against Sneak and Show, and it's not a problem to run 2 and still keep your graveyard hate. It's quite good against ANT as well.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Storm, Painter, Tin Fins, Imperial Bomberman and Lands are all present in Denver, but no real SnS as far as I know. I'm sure it's played, I've just never seen it.

[btm10]

Storm, Painter, Tin Fins, Imperial Bomberman and Lands are all present in Denver, but no real SnS as far as I know. I'm sure it's played, I've just never seen it.

Null Rod seems better in those slots, then.

[MorphBerlin]

You aren't keeping hands without meaningful interaction in the matchups where you're boarding in graveyard hate, and its a much better card to open on than Planar Void or Spellbomb while also being a superior topdeck in the midgame (you've likely either held down the fort with Deathrites or Spellbombed your opponent once if you've lasted that long) that doesn't get cast off of Agent when you need to hit discard or a draw spell. I didn't just make my sideboard up based on what I had lying around the last time I played.

EDIT: What sort of combo do you typically see in Denver? I've always been a fan of Phyrexian Revoker against Sneak and Show, and it's not a problem to run 2 and still keep your graveyard hate. It's quite good against ANT as well.

I am not really sold on the advantages of the 1-of leyline yet tbh. But I would like to look into the idea more deeply.

So Leyline is obviously the best in your opening hand. Planar Void acts as Leyline for 1 in Turn 2-4 (even tough it kills our goys and DRS, and P.Fire can be saved with immediate groove), Spell bomb is good Turn 2-4 as well because it is castable as a Topdeck.

I see 3 scenarios:

If I have leyline in my opener the other 2 Hatpieces are bad topdecks and bad cascades. If I was playing 3 Leylines I would not cascade into them at least.

If I have no hate pieces in my hand, I can find 2/3 of them in the first couple of rounds and still cast them.

If I have 1 of the 1 cmc pieces in my opener I can't cascade into the leyline.

Wouldn't it be better to go for 3 Leylines then? It optimizes 2 of 3 scenarios in my Opinion.

[surface33]

You aren't keeping hands without meaningful interaction in the matchups where you're boarding in graveyard hate, and its a much better card to open on than Planar Void or Spellbomb while also being a superior topdeck in the midgame (you've likely either held down the fort with Deathrites or Spellbombed your opponent once if you've lasted that long) that doesn't get cast off of Agent when you need to hit discard or a draw spell. I didn't just make my sideboard up based on what I had lying around the last time I played.

EDIT: What sort of combo do you typically see in Denver? I've always been a fan of Phyrexian Revoker against Sneak and Show, and it's not a problem to run 2 and still keep your graveyard hate. It's quite good against ANT as well.


I have the same opinion as @morphBerlin,also if you are going to mull for the card then just play 3 of them. Also the issue isn't just the mana, which is too much for a hate card against fast decks, but the fact that is not even that good late in the game. Any of those decks can get a creature, rituals or bridges to the graveyard before and then the card is almost useless.

This whole thing has kept me thinking on my sideboard against GY and I think we can agree that the best Gy hate is RIP,so would it be to greedy if we run a copy or 2? i play the meddling mage side and would be able to cast it, it can also be cascaded into and is game winning against dredge and reanimator, it destroys you shamans and specially your tarmos but with manlands, shardless, vendilion, shamans, and meddlings you might be able to kill them anyway. Also being able to side out goyfs in this MU would be nice. Of course this is only viable if your meta is full of GY strategies.

[btm10]

I am not really sold on the advantages of the 1-of leyline yet tbh. But I would like to look into the idea more deeply.

So Leyline is obviously the best in your opening hand. Planar Void acts as Leyline for 1 in Turn 2-4 (even tough it kills our goys and DRS, and P.Fire can be saved with immediate groove), Spell bomb is good Turn 2-4 as well because it is castable as a Topdeck.



One of the nice things about Planar Void is that it doesn't exile everything the way RiP does, so it doesn't completely blank Goyfs and DRS. But your point is taken.




I see 3 scenarios:

If I have leyline in my opener the other 2 Hatpieces are bad topdecks and bad cascades. If I was playing 3 Leylines I would not cascade into them at least.


This is definitely true. An advantage of Nihil Spellbomb is that it always at least cycles so it's never totally dead, but it can be a nuisance if you need to cascade into something specific and are mana-constrained. That being said, the second hate piece is seldom totally dead: Dredge, Reanimator, and Lands all dedicate sideboard slots to anti-hate that's almost always boarded in. With turn 0 Leyline the other two pieces of graveyard hate can lower the impact of your Cascades, but they aren't total bricks.



If I have no hate pieces in my hand, I can find 2/3 of them in the first couple of rounds and still cast them.


This is obviously a benefit of the 1 cmc graveyard hate.



If I have 1 of the 1 cmc pieces in my opener I can't cascade into the leyline.

Wouldn't it be better to go for 3 Leylines then? It optimizes 2 of 3 scenarios in my Opinion.

The problem with this reasoning is that the degree of optimization on these scenarios is small (where it applies at all) and more importantly, it doesn't take into consideration the fact that you're keeping a lot of hands without any of the three cards in them. Fetch, Fetch, Agent, Force, Duress is a snap keep on 5 cards against Storm or Reanimator; add almost anything to it and it's keepable at 6 as well. You might mulligan for graveyard hate with those being 5/7, but the other two cards would have to be either very slow or junk that you couldn't quite board out (e.g., Deluge against Storm). Deathrite, Sea, Fetch, Wasteland, Goyf, Force, Vision is typically keepable against Lands. In short, you're going to be naturally drawing your graveyard hate a significant portion of the time, and having at least some of it be castable is really important. The fact that Spellbomb in particular is one-sided and helps clean up after your initial wave of disruption is extremely helpful, while Planar Void gives you something much harder to play around than Spellbomb.

[Whit3boy316]

Has anyone been running the "no hand disruption" version of the deck lately? Ive never tried it but andding a 2nd jace and 3rd lily seems kewl

[SilkyPimP]

Had a few questions. Going to playtest for Columbus later on, what is the usual sideboard plan against Eldrazi/Infect?
The Infect matchup seems so bad, Infect is one of the only reasons I am still using NOSB.

Also going to test against Lands and a few other bad matchups like storm and SnT. I want to try Leyline vs the usual graveyard hate package.
On the fence about meddling mage as well, I love it for combo heavy environments.

I will post up my list later tonight, I am still on 1 Jace Vryn atm.

[Whit3boy316]

Had a few questions. Going to playtest for Columbus later on, what is the usual sideboard plan against Eldrazi/Infect?
The Infect matchup seems so bad, Infect is one of the only reasons I am still using NOSB.

Also going to test against Lands and a few other bad matchups like storm and SnT. I want to try Leyline vs the usual graveyard hate package.
On the fence about meddling mage as well, I love it for combo heavy environments.

I will post up my list later tonight, I am still on 1 Jace Vryn atm.

I took out NOSB because you will hardly get to 4 mana against infect, i play it a lot as my buddy plays it. I cant recall a time ive ever won

[btm10]

Had a few questions. Going to playtest for Columbus later on, what is the usual sideboard plan against Eldrazi/Infect?
The Infect matchup seems so bad, Infect is one of the only reasons I am still using NOSB.

Also going to test against Lands and a few other bad matchups like storm and SnT. I want to try Leyline vs the usual graveyard hate package.
On the fence about meddling mage as well, I love it for combo heavy environments.

I will post up my list later tonight, I am still on 1 Jace Vryn atm.

I think Infect is a pretty positive matchup. Discard (especially Hymn) is great. Baleful Strix is great. Just don't get greedy, kill their stuff on your turn, and save your Wastelands for Inkmoth and you'll be fine more often than not.