[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[Ephemeron]

I think Infect is a pretty positive matchup. Discard (especially Hymn) is great. Baleful Strix is great. Just don't get greedy, kill their stuff on your turn, and save your Wastelands for Inkmoth and you'll be fine more often than not.

This is great advice. Game one the matchup can definitely be tricky if you don't draw enough removal. But after boarding, you should have disfigures and deluges and pithing needle and more discard. I think the worst card is definitely Jace, followed up by probably Tarmogoyf. He's just a dumb beater and you're not gonna be able to race them, so just OD on removal and discard and keep their board clear (even Noble Hierarch). Beats from Shardless and DRS should be enough.

[halahel]

Apologies if someone asked this recently: what's the plan for 4c Delver? I struggle with this match-up, and the whole "just counter everything the first three turns" approach makes me want to reach across the table and render violence. If anyone has general strategies and SB tips, I'd appreciate it.

[btm10]

Apologies if someone asked this recently: what's the plan for 4c Delver? I struggle with this match-up, and the whole "just counter everything the first three turns" approach makes me want to reach across the table and render violence. If anyone has general strategies and SB tips, I'd appreciate it.

Don't walk into their soft counters, but don't let them scare you into not playing spells. If they aren't applying pressure, you don't have to actually do anything, just make your land drops and trade cards with them. Delver and Deathrite are their main threats since you can't just stall out the board and make them bad. That means prioritizing killing Delvers with Decay and let your Deathrites check theirs, especially in game 1. Obviously don't let a lone Deathrite live since turning yours on is relevant, but if you're forced to choose, the Delver is the bigger issue. Liliana is good both preboard and post since she contributes to the grinding plan. Make sure you keep sorceries in the graveyard and try to limit their ability to eat dead Agents and Strixes since Goyf sizing matters, especially if they're on Anglers. Discard is fine g1 to help push your stuff through, but I don't like anything that costs mana and doesn't play to the board games 2 and 3, so I cut Hymns and Thoughtseizes for removal. Jace is probably too slow. Keep Forces in no matter what so you don't get tempoed out. Cards like Painful Truths and Baleful Strix from their side can be obnoxious, but if they have it you should be happy because now they're trying to play our game, and we're way better at doing that.

[halahel]

Don't walk into their soft counters, but don't let them scare you into not playing spells.

Awesome! Great information. Thanks for the tips.

[MorphBerlin]

So I just lost to an Esper Control deck on cockatrice. I was very unsure how to board.

Here is what I saw Game 1:

Stoneforge+Jitte+B.Skull, Lingering Souls, Snapcaster, Diabolic Edict, Baleful Strix

Game 2: I lost to a Vindicate+JTMS+Sorin, Lord of innistrad

Game 3: Mull to 5 and lost to JMTS


It is kind of difficult to focus on creatures and PW... I took out forces and Discard but maybe that was wrang in retrospective

[ironclad8690]

Vs blade decks I really like leaving in Force of Will. Even though the games are grindy, FOW only truly sets you back if your Ancestral Visions never resolve.

[Whit3boy316]

Vs blade decks I really like leaving in Force of Will. Even though the games are grindy, FOW only truly sets you back if your Ancestral Visions never resolve.

Recent update on my miracles matchup (convo we had in another thread....that i cant find). Sideboarding, -2 hymn -2 baleful, -2 thoughtseize....+1 pithing needle, +2 golgari charm, +1 vclique, +2 pernicious deed.....felt great!

[Nimfa]

I've been lurking around for quite a while and finally gathered my courage to ask for some advice.
I'm going to Prague with my Shardless, that I've been playing for about 2-3 years now, but I'm awful at sideboarding :frown:
I usually just get a friend to go through the list with me and make me a list of what to take out and what to board, but this time i was advised to search for wisdom here :)
Here's the list with sideboard:

4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Baleful Strix
2x True-Name Nemesis

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Brainstorm
4x AbruptDecay
3x Force of Will
3x Ancestral Vision
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse

2x Polluted delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacomb
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Wasteland
1x Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Golgari Charm
1x Baleful Strix
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Submerge
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Extirpate
1x Dismember

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[grahilah]

I'm also struggling with sideboarding. Trying to firm up plans for GP Columbus. This is where I'm at so far:

1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Disfigure
1 Darkblast
1 Notion Thief

Other possibilities are Pithing Needle and Null Rod, both good against equipment-based strategies, Miracles, Sneak + Show, and other problematic permanents.

Notes:

Life from the Loam is an all-star. It gets me way ahead against the fair decks, letting me grind/value out in the mirror, and other fair decks like Esperblade and Jund. Also good versus Eldrazi.

Garruk and Sylvan Library are great against Miracles and other "fair" decks.

Discard for combo. Effective against Storm, Sneak/Show, kind of Reanimator and High Tide.

Various removal and -1 effects for Young Pyromancer, tribal decks, Death&Taxes, and Infect.

Notion Thief vs. Miracles and Shardless mirror

Eldrazi
-4 FoW, -1 Clique
+1 LftL, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Garruk Relentless, +1 Toxic Deluge

Death&Taxes
-4 FoW, -1 JtmS, -1 Hymn to Tourach
+1 Disfigure, +1 Darkblast, +1 Engineered Plague, +1 Garruk Relentless, +1 Toxic Deluge

Delver
-4 FoW, -1 JtmS, -1 Hymn
+1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Darkblast, +1 Disfigure, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 LftL, +1 Sylvan Library

Shardless Mirror
-4 FoW
+1 Garruk, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Notion Thief

Miracles
-2 Liliana of the Veil, -1 FoW
+1 Sylvan Library, +1 Garruk Relentless, +1 Notion Thief

Storm / Sneak+Show
-4 Abrupt Decay, -1 Jace
+2 Duress, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Golgari Charm

Elves / Goblins / Infect
-1 JtmS, -1 Force, -1 Clique, -1 Ancestral, -1 Goyf
+1 Engineered Plague, +1 Darkblast, +1 Disfigure, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Golgari Charm

Graveyard Decks (Reanimator, Dredge, Lands, Punishing Fire decks)
8% of the field. Is it worth dedicating sideboard slots? You require a critical mass, at least 4, to find them reliably. And they're dead cards against other decks.

Appreciate any thoughts.

*Edit, should post my main I suppose:

Creatures (16)
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
3x Baleful Strix
1x Vendilion Clique
Spells (20)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Hymn to Tourach
Planeswalkers (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
Lands (21)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
3x Wasteland

[Ephemeron]

@grahilah: I wouldn't leave home without a Null Rod in my board. That card is just too good against so many matchups (Miracles, D&T, stoneblade decks, Storm, even rogue stuff like Tezzerator). I also wouldn't totally punt graveyard hate, I'd recommend grafdiggers cage since it's good against dredge and reanimator obviously but it's also respectable against storm and GSZ decks like elves.

[grahilah]

@grahilah: I wouldn't leave home without a Null Rod in my board. That card is just too good against so many matchups (Miracles, D&T, stoneblade decks, Storm, even rogue stuff like Tezzerator). I also wouldn't totally punt graveyard hate, I'd recommend grafdiggers cage since it's good against dredge and reanimator obviously but it's also respectable against storm and GSZ decks like elves.

I have run Null Rod in the past. I was thinking that with the Blade decks being less popular, it wasn't doing enough in many matchups. I have been bringing it in less and less.

If I do run graveyard hate, Grafdigger's Cage would be the choice.

Thanks, appreciate your thoughts.

[MorphBerlin]

Recent update on my miracles matchup (convo we had in another thread....that i cant find). Sideboarding, -2 hymn -2 baleful, -2 thoughtseize....+1 pithing needle, +2 golgari charm, +1 vclique, +2 pernicious deed.....felt great!

What is the deed for? Siding out Hymns still doesn't convince me. Would side out a Lot of other cards before I cut hymns.

[Whit3boy316]

What is the deed for? Siding out Hymns still doesn't convince me. Would side out a Lot of other cards before I cut hymns.

Angel tokens. Pops for 0

Hand hate for a deck with the goal of abusing top doesnt seem good. It just slows them down. But when they topdeck jace and you topdeck hymn. Ya get wrecked

[Whit3boy316]

I have run Null Rod in the past. I was thinking that with the Blade decks being less popular, it wasn't doing enough in many matchups. I have been bringing it in less and less.

If I do run graveyard hate, Grafdigger's Cage would be the choice.

Thanks, appreciate your thoughts.

I actually debate about 2 pithing needles over a 1/1 split of needle and null rod.....null rod doesnt stop storm from using LED which is why i cut it.....but i always think of putting it back

[btm10]

Angel tokens. Pops for 0

Hand hate for a deck with the goal of abusing top doesnt seem good. It just slows them down. But when they topdeck jace and you topdeck hymn. Ya get wrecked

Hymn is important for making sure your key spells resolve and that Predict doesn't catch them back up. Extra discard should be either held for Brainstorm (since we want to play lands out to hardcast Force on Ruination and Entreat) or discarded to Liliana.


I actually debate about 2 pithing needles over a 1/1 split of needle and null rod.....null rod doesnt stop storm from using LED which is why i cut it.....but i always think of putting it back

Needle doesn't do anything against Storm, but Null Rod shuts down all of their mana rocks.

[MorphBerlin]

Angel tokens. Pops for 0

Hand hate for a deck with the goal of abusing top doesnt seem good. It just slows them down. But when they topdeck jace and you topdeck hymn. Ya get wrecked

Disaggreed, CA still counts after all, top is good against single discard, but hymn is different. Obviously it is mostly good early. But it allows you to back up pressure by your creatures. And they can't jam Jace if you are ahead on board. Trying to outcontrol them seems like a losing track.

Ok Deed kills angels so? They just don't play it? It is not good early anyways and that is the stage where games are won against them. (Seems like a Horrible card in your opener). It is a card with 0 impact on the board nor CA and when they are comfortable ahead the just Tear it or Win with jace. Seems too narrow to me.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I actually debate about 2 pithing needles over a 1/1 split of needle and null rod.....null rod doesnt stop storm from using LED which is why i cut it.....but i always think of putting it back
It does stop LED.

[btm10]

Disaggreed, CA still counts after all, top is good against single discard, but hymn is different. Obviously it is mostly good early. But it allows you to back up pressure by your creatures. And they can't jam Jace if you are ahead on board. Trying to outcontrol them seems like a losing track.

Ok Deed kills angels so? They just don't play it? It is not good early anyways and that is the stage where games are won against them. (Seems like a Horrible card in your opener). It is a card with 0 impact on the board nor CA and when they are comfortable ahead the just Tear it or Win with jace. Seems too narrow to me.

I agree that Deed is much too narrow. It's not impossible to out-control them (wthe right SB plan), it's just silly to try since we have a better option in just grinding them out and bringing the value beats. If you juat want a solid utility card for the Miracles matchup and have a slot set aside for it, I recommend Hindering Touch. It's essentially a fifth Force, but it's much harder to counter and gets Jace as well as Entreat, which can't be said for other supplemental counters like Dimir Charm. It's prohibitive outside of the mirror, Miracles, and Blade matchups, but it's quite good in all of those, ao I'd only try it in a alow, fair metagame or if you're extremely confident in your other matchups, including combo.

[matunos]

It does stop LED.

Indeed, it's Pithing Needle that doesn't stop LED. Null Rod has no exception for mana abilities.

[matunos]

Angel tokens. Pops for 0

Hand hate for a deck with the goal of abusing top doesnt seem good. It just slows them down. But when they topdeck jace and you topdeck hymn. Ya get wrecked

Maelstrom Pulse is pretty much just as effective as Deed in clearing out Angel Tokens, plus a bunch of other problem permanents like planeswalkers, enchantments, etc.

Deed on anything other than 0 threatens to blow your stuff up too, and against Miracles chances are you have more things on board than they do.

There are B(U)G decks that can use Deed effectively (mostly old BUG decks not played anymore, and Nic Fit), but not Shardless.

[MorphBerlin]

I agree that Deed is much too narrow. It's not impossible to out-control them (wthe right SB plan), it's just silly to try since we have a better option in just grinding them out and bringing the value beats. If you juat want a solid utility card for the Miracles matchup and have a slot set aside for it, I recommend Hindering Touch. It's essentially a fifth Force, but it's much harder to counter and gets Jace as well as Entreat, which can't be said for other supplemental counters like Dimir Charm. It's prohibitive outside of the mirror, Miracles, and Blade matchups, but it's quite good in all of those, ao I'd only try it in a alow, fair metagame or if you're extremely confident in your other matchups, including combo.

Hindering touch would for sure catch people by surprise! Unfortunatly no jap foils of it on MCM :rolleyes: But I don't know if a 2nd Jace or a Flsuterstrom (no risk no fun) would be better in that spot

[btm10]

Hindering touch would for sure catch people by surprise! Unfortunatly no jap foils of it on MCM :rolleyes: But I don't know if a 2nd Jace or a Flsuterstrom (no risk no fun) would be better in that spot

My biggest gripe is that it's 4 rather than 3 CMC, which just makes it too narrow to be optimal. I really like that it hits everything rather than just instants and sorceries like Flusterstor, though.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm going to a PPTQ in a couple weeks and I'm taking the following list. I'm looking for any input. Meta generally seems slightly skewed to combo but also known to have some Eldrazi and Miracles present, along with more fringe lists like Enchantress and RW Painter, Imperial Bomberman, Tin Fins, and so there are some slightly abnormal choices.


Creatures: 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
1 Tombstalker

Spells: 23
4 Force of Willl
3 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Land: 22
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard: 15
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disfigure
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Containment Priest
3 Meddling Mage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Scrubland

[ironclad8690]

If the combo deck are skewed towards GY decks, I don't think you can afford to run Meddling Mage. Mage is really only good vs Storm and Lands, with a little nod to Sneak and Show (but even then, they can just "play the other").

I like cutting mages in favor of more Spellbombs/discard if you think you can afford it.

[grahilah]

Went 4-1 at last night's local Legacy event. Beat Shardless mirror, Shardless mirror (with Aluren combo baked in), RUG Delver, Elves, and lost to Dredge. The match versus Dredge was pretty close, got game 1, lost game 2, and lost game 3 after mulligan to 5 after he Nature's Claim'ed my Grafdigger's Cage. Never saw a Deathrite the entire Dredge match.

Pretty happy with my sideboard choices. Won't be making any changes for the GP. Good luck to anyone in Columbus or Prague this weekend!

[HSCK]

I'm going to a PPTQ in a couple weeks and I'm taking the following list. I'm looking for any input. Meta generally seems slightly skewed to combo but also known to have some Eldrazi and Miracles present, along with more fringe lists like Enchantress and RW Painter, Imperial Bomberman, Tin Fins, and so there are some slightly abnormal choices.


Creatures: 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
1 Tombstalker

Spells: 23
4 Force of Willl
3 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Land: 22
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard: 15
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disfigure
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Containment Priest
3 Meddling Mage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Scrubland



There are no Legacy PPTQ's if I recall, so you might want to check what you're playing in?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That's what my teammates said it was. It's in Denver on the 26th, whatever it is.

[hobart]

It's an SCG IQ, which is pretty much the biggest Legacy events we get around here. I'll be there as well, also playing shardless.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Went 4-1 at last night's local Legacy event. Beat Shardless mirror, Shardless mirror (with Aluren combo baked in), RUG Delver, Elves, and lost to Dredge. The match versus Dredge was pretty close, got game 1, lost game 2, and lost game 3 after mulligan to 5 after he Nature's Claim'ed my Grafdigger's Cage. Never saw a Deathrite the entire Dredge match.

Pretty happy with my sideboard choices. Won't be making any changes for the GP. Good luck to anyone in Columbus or Prague this weekend!

Care to say anything more about the one with the Aluren combo in it?

[grahilah]

Care to say anything more about the one with the Aluren combo in it?

Yeah, it's kind of a brew. It's pretty much Shardless without Ancestral Vision, in favor of what I think is three copies of Aluren, and one each of Parasitic Strix and Cavern Harpy for the combo. Rest of the deck is the standard Goyf, Shardless, Deathrite creature package with discard, Abrupt Decay, and Force of Will for disruption. Interesting deck. Kind of suboptimal I think, a little unfocused, as sometimes you just draw the combo pieces but no Aluren and it's really awkward. But it's cool to see, and the deck pilot is just kind of having fun with it. I've lost to the same player and that deck before, it can just win out of nowhere.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, good luck, Hobart. I'd prefer to be on DnT, but alas, I haven't been able to pick up the last few things needed due to family matters being more important than cardboard (at least that's what they tell me), so here goes nothing.

[grahilah]

Wanted to do a little write-up for my play this weekend!

Round 1 versus Stephen on MUD

Game 1 my opponent opened Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, into Trinisphere, and I was in trouble. I was locked out of plays for a few turns, and although I got a Goyf online, he found more mana, and made a Forgemaster. Although I was able to land a Jace and bounce his Forgemaster, he made a Metalworker, with Lightning Greaves in hand, played the Forgemaster again and then the Greaves, fetching up a Blightsteel Colossus, and killed my Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I blocked for a turn, and was killed the next, failing to find anything like Liliana of the Veil to deal with the huge monster.

Game 2 I had a better start, using Force of Will on an early lock piece, and blowing up a Metalworker with an Abrupt Decay. Sylvan Library allowed me to draw a few extra cards and put more pressure on, and he finally lost due to not finding any threats and my two 5/6 Tarmogoyfs.

Game 3 was similar. I had an early Force of Will to slow down his lock pieces. I landed a turn 2 Sylvan Library. We both Wasteland each other twice over subsequent turns, but I land a Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay his Metalworker, shutting him off mana. My followup Liliana of the Veil to kill his newly cast Forgemaster, and then a Life from the Loam getting back three Wasteland drew the concession.

Matches 1-0, Games 2-1

Round 2 versus Brian on Death and Taxes

Game 1 I win the die roll and start turn 2 with Hymn to Tourach, getting a couple threats out of his hand, and answer his Thalia with Tarmogoyf. I attack with my 6/7 Goyf, and he has to hold back his creatures to block over two turns, and doesn't find anything to deal with the Tarmogoyf.

Game 2 he plays a turn 2 Phyrexian Revoker naming Deathrite Shaman, seeing my one on board, and then next turn I play two more, and never find anything to deal with the Revoker, severely constraining my mana. He finds Batterskull with Stoneforge Mystic, and although I have Engineered Plague to deal with his Thalia and Mother of Runes, and Maelstrom Pulse to kill the Batterskull, I can't deal with Mirran Crusader, and it eventually beats me down.

Game 3 an early Engineered Plague deals with his Mother of Runes, and even though he has another Mirran Crusader, I get way ahead, hitting with two Tarmogoyfs and Creeping Tar Pit, getting him down to 6 from 17, after he attacks me down to 6. His board is only Mirran Crusader after a piece of removal and active Liliana of the Veil, and I'm able to attack for the win.

Matches 2-0, Games 4-2

Round 3 versus Brian on Belcher

Game 1 I keep a hand that's something like Force of Will, Brainstorm, Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, and three lands. My opponent casts Chrome Mox, Rite of Flame, exile Simian Spirit Guide, Seething Song, Goblin Charbelcher, and I Force the Charbelcher. He scoops and we go to game 2.

Game 2 we both mulligan, him to 5, me down to 6. I keep a hand with two Brainstorm, Deathrite, Ancestral Vision, and two lands. My scry shows me Force of Will, and I hope he doesn't have the turn 1. He does not, but tries to go for it turn 2, and I have Force of Will again. He just draws a few more Chrome Moxes, while my Deathrite Shamans eat his life total, and after my Ancestral Vision comes off suspend, I Abrupt Decay his Carpet of Flowers, and make him discard both cards in his hand with Duress and Thoughtseize drawn off Ancestral Vision. I win shortly after.

Matches 3-0, Games 6-2

Round 4 versus John on Miracles

Game 1, my opponent resolves turn 1 Sensei's Divining Top and turn 2 Counterbalance. I attempt to slow-roll him, not wanting to play anything into the lock and waste it, so I wait until I find a Abrupt Decay, which comes a few turns later. My life total approaches 30 after two Tarmogoyfs get Swords to Plowshared. A Shardless Agent gets a few pokes in, and finally a third Tarmogoyf joins the fray, protected by Vendilion Clique in response to his Miracle'd Terminus, and I finish him off the next turn.

Game 2 I open on Ancestral Vision suspended. My Deathrite Shaman gets him a few times, and then he resolves a Blood Moon, locking me out of the game. The Ancestral Vision got a Pyroblast, so I scooped up my cards and moved on to game 3.

Game 3 my opponent answers everything I play. Four creatures are hit with Swords to Plowshares, Counterspell stops Garruk Relentless. I use Abrupt Decay on Monastery Mentor, and Maelstrom Pulse on the resulting tokens. Abrupt Decay for his Rest in Peace. I almost get him with Notion Thief late in the game, but he has the perfect answers, with Swords on the Notion Thief after it resolves, and Flusterstorm for my Force of Will on the Swords. His Ponder allows him to set up an Entreat the Angels for 6 Angels, beating my 23 life total. My two Deathrite Shamans on the board were a bit too slow to finish out the game.

Matches 3-1, Games 7-4

Round 5 versus Thomas on UR Delver

In game 1, my opponent takes himself to 15 on his first turn with Gitaxian Probe into Gitaxian Probe, into Force of Will on my Deathrite Shaman. He plays control for a little while, until I'm able to land a Tarmogoyf, and hit him from 14 to 9 to 4, and then I take 16 from two Price of Progress and get a Lightning Bolt to finish it out.

Game 2 I have an aggressive start with Deathrite Shaman into Shardless Agent into Ancestral Visions, and I'm able to out-resource him. He does resolve another Price of Progress, but I'm able to race and finish him off.

Game 3 I start with a Duress and I see he kept a one-land hand with two Spell Pierce, Price of Progress, Ponder, Brainstorm, and Monastery Swiftspear. Since he played the turn 1 Delver of Secrets, I wanted to keep him from flipping it or finding another land, so I took the Brainstorm off my Duress. His Delver flips anyway, and he beats me for a couple turns, but has trouble finding land. I find an Abrupt Decay for his Delver, but he makes more threats. I start to develop a huge board, fetching my basic lands to prevent Price of Progress pain, my Ancestral Vision comes off suspend, find Tarmogoyf off Shardless Agent, a second Shardless Agent into Ancestral Vision, then Baleful Strix, and finally Liliana of the Veil. His board is unflipped Delver, Monastery Swiftspear, and Stormchaser Mage, but he can't attack into my board of creatures, especially Baleful Strix. I keep pressure on with Tarmogoyf and Shardless Agent, and he's forced to block to keep from dying, and the next turn I'm able to active my two Deathrite Shaman to finish him off. Basically just got to value him out of the game.

Matches 4-1, Games 9-5

Round 6 versus Justin on Shardless

Game 1, I lose the die roll, and have to protect my hand from his turn 2 Hymn to Tourach with Force of Will. I'm way behind after he uses Abrupt Decay on my Deathrite Shaman and then plays Tarmogoyf, and resolves Ancestral Vision, making more threats, and I'm not able to catch up.

Game 2 I have kind of a slow start, losing my Deathrite Shaman again to Abrupt Decay, and he finds the cards he needs off Sylvan Library, following it up with Jace, the Mind Sculptor. The turn his T1 Ancestral Vision comes off suspend, I cast Notion Thief, trying to steal his card draw, but he has the exact answer in Disfigure to kill it before his Ancestral Vision resolves. He then casts Shardless Agent into Ancestral Vision, plus his Jace Brainstorm allowed him to draw 8 cards in one turn. I scooped up my cards and conceded after that.

Matches 4-2, Games 9-7

Round 7 versus John on Show and Tell

Game 1 I'm on the play, and get a quick start of Deathrite Shaman into Baleful Strix, but his turn 2 Griselbrand is a more powerful play, getting it onto the battlefield due to an unstopped Show and Tell. He draws 7 cards off it, and doesn't find what he needs, while my Baleful Strix holds it off. The next turn he is able to get Sneak Attack and Emrakul to attack me, and I have to sac most of my board, and he runs away with the game.

Game 2 I'm again on the play, and he doesn't have the combo in hand apparently and has a slow start, so he's forced to play defense, using Force of Will to stop a Tarmogoyf and Spell Pierce on Liliana of the Veil. With only four cards in hand, my Hymn to Tourach causes him to discard two big creatures, and my Deathrite Shaman backed up by another Tarmogoyf puts the game away.

Game 3 I'm on the draw, and his second-turn play off Ancient Tomb and Volcanic Island is Blood Moon. Luckily, I have basic Swamp and Tropical Island in play, so I float the green mana and Abrupt Decay the Blood Moon to keep myself in the game. My opponent is very upset that I blew up the card that he intended to keep me from playing actual Magic, so I follow that up with Liliana of the Veil and start stripping cards out of his hand. Vendilion Clique to follow that up shows little in his hand of interest, but I have him put Omniscience on the bottom, keeping Emrakul and Spell Pierce. Vendilion Clique attacks him over a couple turns, while Liliana and other discard spells keep him off cards. He scoops after I ultimate my Liliana of the Veil, having him sacrifice a second blood moon, plus two other lands, leaving him with only three lands in play and no cards in hand.

Matches 5-2, Games 11-8

Round 8 versus James on Turbo Depths

Game 1, my opponent opens on Urborg into Thoughtseize, and I wonder if I'm playing against Pox. His follow-up play is Thespian's Stage plus Expedition Map, and I try to keep him off another land, which I assume will be Dark Depths, by destroying the Map. But he has other plans, and exiles Elvish Spirit Guide, taps his Urborg, and goes to get Dark Depths. I die two turns later to an unanswered 20/20 creature.

Game 2 my turn 1 duress finds him with two Dark Depths, two Verdant Catacombs, Swamp, Elvish Spirit Guide, and Crop Rotation. I take the Crop Rotation, and next turn make a Tarmogoyf and start beating him down. A couple turns later, he finds the Thespian's Stage, but I have a Baleful Strix to hold off the token. Then I find Jace, the Mind Sculptor to bounce the token. He plays a Vampire Hexmage to kill my Jace, but I kill him with Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman activations.

Game 3 he goes Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Vampire Hexmage, Dark Depths, make a 20/20. I question my life choices and concede the game.

Matches 5-3, Games 12-10

Round 9 versus Nathanial on Storm

Game 1, my opponent opens on Gitaxian Probe and Volcanic Island, so I figure I'm playing against some Delver deck. I was wrong, when my second turn Hymn to Tourach gets his Infernal Tutor and Cabal Ritual. A follow up Hymn off Shardless Agent strips more cards out of his hand, and I beat down and he doesn't have time to rebuild.

Game 2, my opponent opens on Young Pyromancer, Gitaxian Probe, Lotus Petal, Ponder, and I'm suddenly in real trouble. I have a Deathrite to slow things down, and then a Shardless Agent into Tarmogoyf turns things around. My followup Shardless into Ancestral Vision found Duress plus Thoughtseize, and he had no more cards in hand, forced to block my Tarmogoyf, and he's done.

Matches 6-3, Games 14-10

I'm at 6-3 and I made day 2! Being a little far behind in match points makes it difficult to finish in the money, but I'm just happy to play more Legacy. I grabbed dinner with friends, and headed home to crash.

Back at the site on Sunday morning for more gaming.

Round 10 versus Duncan on Eldrazi

Duncan wins the die roll, and on turn 1 plays Thorn of Amethyst. I have no choice but to let it resolve, my hand of Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm, Liliana, Jace, Abrupt Decay, and two lands suddenly looking very bad. Turn two he casts Thought-Knot Seer, taking my Tarmogoyf, and a third-turn Thought-Knot Seer, taking another card. I chumped with Deathrite Shaman, but lost on the next turn.

Game 2 my opponent started with Thorn, I forced his second-turn Thought-Knot Seer, but he followed that up with another, an Endless One, and then Reality Smasher on turn 4. I couldn't handle the onslaught.

Matches 6-4, Games 14-12

Round 11 versus Jeremy on Lands

Game 1 my opponent started with Thespian's Stage, Mox Diamond, and passed the turn. He Abrupt Decayed my turn 2 Tarmogoyf and Turn 3 Liliana of the Veil and made a turn 4 Marit Lage token, so I scooped.

Game 2 I had Sylvan Library early. I Force of Will'ed a Crop Rotation, and was able to play around his Choke by fetching non-Islands. He had Maze of Ith for my Goyf, but Shardless Agent got there, and finished it off with Deathrite activations.

Game 3 I started with an early Deathrite, prioritizing eating his lands with it. He had Tabernacle early, but I found Wasteland for that, and ate it with my Deathrite. I beat a second-turn Choke from him with Golgari Charm. I forgot to draw off an Ancestral Vision that I cast, but found another Deathrite and suspended over two more turns two more Ancestral Vision. A third Deathrite hit the board, followed by Garruk Relentless, and he was forced to turn Thespian Stages into Mazes to blank the wolf tokens. Deathrites kept his graveyard clean of lands and I got his Life from the Loams. Finally I was able to get him with Deathrite Shaman activations.

Matches 7-4, Games 16-13

Round 12 versus Adonnys on Shardless BUG

Game 1 he has a very aggressive start, using Abrupt Decay on my Deathrite Shaman, hitting me with Wasteland, and I'm out of the game quickly.

Game 2 is quite the grind fest. We both set up with Deathrite Shamans, but I'm able to use Sylvan Library to gain advantage. We both build over a couple turns, Shardless Agents and Tarmogoyfs on both sides, until I'm able to Shardless into Ancestral Vision, find removal for his Deathrite Shamans, and take over the game.

Game 3 he opens on Deathrite, gets turn 3 Liliana to kill my Tarmogoyf, I follow up with Garruk Relentless, making a wolf to hold off his Shardless Agent and two Deathrite Shamans. He finds another Liliana of the Veil, killing my wolf, attacking and killing my Garruk. My Ancestral Vision comes off suspend, and I play a Shardless Agent into Tarmogoyf, followed up by Baleful Strix, and then time is called. He plays a Jace on his first game of turns, and I steal his Jace Brainstorm with flashed-in Notion Thief. Then on my turn I attack and kill his Liliana. The board is about even when we run out of turns, life totals my 10 to his 9 with both a significant board presence, my Liliana, Strix, Goyf, Shardless, and Creeping Tar Pit (with bounced Notion Thief and other spells in hand) to his two Deathrites and Jace. I decide a draw won't help either of us, so I concede the game to him and wish him luck in the rest of the tournament, and drop from the main event.

Had some great games and met some great people. Always fun playing Legacy (unless you get turn 1 Marit Lage, that's not so great).

I have talked about my sideboard choices, especially agonizing over having sideboard hate for graveyard-based decks, and I never saw one all day, except for Lands where I did bring in one Nihil Spellbomb, but it never made a difference.

Notion Thief only worked in one match to steal a Jace activation. I feel like it doesn't do enough, and it's fragile, so I might go in a different direction there.

Sylvan Library was an all-star, winning several games outright.

Happy with the discard package, it was key against Sneak + Show and Storm, as I had planned.

Golgari Charm, Disfigure, Toxic Deluge, and especially Engineered Plague were big hits all day, especially against Death and Taxes.

Very happy with the deck, I think Shardless is still a great choice for the meta. I might tweak the sideboard a bit, but the main is pretty solid. Here was my list for the weekend:

Creatures (16)
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
3x Baleful Strix
1x Vendilion Clique
Spells (20)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Hymn to Tourach
Planeswalkers (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
Lands (21)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
3x Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Disfigure
1 Notion Thief
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb

[minyafriend]

With this manabase:
1 forest
1 swamp
4 underground sea
1 tropical island
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
1 marsh flats
4 wasteland

Would you think it plausible to run the 3xstrix/hymn version of shardless? Most of the manabases I look at seem all wacky with 3 underground's multiple trops and bayous, 1- no basics fewer wastelands with tar pits. I'm not looking to run tar pit in my meta. But wouldn't mind testing out some of the higher placing shardless decks at gp columbus without shelling out $$$ for more duals.

[10k]

I've been brewing around with white in the mix. Please forgive me if this has already been discussed in detail (I have looked and searched, but may well have failed). Anyhow, I'm very interested to hear opinions on how white makes the list function better or worse than 'pure' BUG. My initial worry is that not all fetches can grab the white source. However, the idea of cascading into Teeg, or Containment Priest, or Meddling Mage seems too good to resist. This is what I've got so far...

Land (22)
2x Bayou
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Forest
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Scrubland
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland

Planeswalker (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

Creature (15)
2x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Meddling Mage
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf

Instant (12)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will

Sorcery (8)
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15)
2x Baleful Strix
1x Containment Priest
1x Disfigure
1x Dread of Night
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Meddling Mage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvan Library
1x Tormod's Crypt

[MorphBerlin]

I've been brewing around with white in the mix. Please forgive me if this has already been discussed in detail (I have looked and searched, but may well have failed). Anyhow, I'm very interested to hear opinions on how white makes the list function better or worse than 'pure' BUG. My initial worry is that not all fetches can grab the white source. However, the idea of cascading into Teeg, or Containment Priest, or Meddling Mage seems too good to resist. This is what I've got so far...

Land (22)
2x Bayou
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Forest
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Scrubland
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland


That mana base doesnt look good. 4 Misty's that cannot get the scrubland. Only 8 Fetches in a now 4 color deck. No more Basic swamp to fetch (more important than the basic forest in my opinion). What exactly are you trying to improve with one Meddling Mage maindeck? I would switch it with a strix from the sideboard. Also I don't see the need for a C. Priest atm, it only does something against S&S, Reanimator and Elves right? Which decks are you trying to hit with the Teeg?

[10k]

That mana base doesnt look good. 4 Misty's that cannot get the scrubland. Only 8 Fetches in a now 4 color deck. No more Basic swamp to fetch (more important than the basic forest in my opinion). What exactly are you trying to improve with one Meddling Mage maindeck? I would switch it with a strix from the sideboard. Also I don't see the need for a C. Priest atm, it only does something against S&S, Reanimator and Elves right? Which decks are you trying to hit with the Teeg?

Now you've made the point about Strix, it seems obvious and I will swap them out. Teeg was with Miracles in mind. There is a bit of it floating around locally, and they're playing with Entreat as the wincon (as opposed to mentor). There is also an elves deck running about.

The manabase could include Flooded Strands instead of the Misty Rainforests, which would allow me to fetch all colo(u)rs from all fetches...?

Thanks for the feedback! Exactly what was needed.

[MorphBerlin]

Now you've made the point about Strix, it seems obvious and I will swap them out. Teeg was with Miracles in mind. There is a bit of it floating around locally, and they're playing with Entreat as the wincon (as opposed to mentor). There is also an elves deck running about.

The manabase could include Flooded Strands instead of the Misty Rainforests, which would allow me to fetch all colo(u)rs from all fetches...?

Thanks for the feedback! Exactly what was needed.

Well Flooded Strands can neither get Bayou nor Forest, so thats not really a step forward.
This is the Manabase I used, when I had 3 Mages in the SB:

3 Seas
2 bayou
1 Trop
4 Verdant
4 Delta
2 Misty
1 Tar pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

If you want to save the SB slot and play the scrub main, you should replace the swamp with the scrubland. Misty still doesn't get you white but that has rarely been a prob for me because you have 9 ways to get white + DRS. If you want 2 Trops take a Misty out for it, although I never has been important for me.

If you play more mages rather then teeg to name Terminus/EtA it accomplishes almost the same doesn't it? Teeg cannot get Blasted and shuts down both but it prevents our Jace too.

I don't think elves cares to much about the priest, especially if they board into grinding mode. If you want to hit them GCharm, Deluge, Plague, NOSB are the real hosers.

[Whit3boy316]

Wanted to do a little write-up for my play this weekend!

Round 1 versus Stephen on MUD

Game 1 my opponent opened Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, into Trinisphere, and I was in trouble. I was locked out of plays for a few turns, and although I got a Goyf online, he found more mana, and made a Forgemaster. Although I was able to land a Jace and bounce his Forgemaster, he made a Metalworker, with Lightning Greaves in hand, played the Forgemaster again and then the Greaves, fetching up a Blightsteel Colossus, and killed my Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I blocked for a turn, and was killed the next, failing to find anything like Liliana of the Veil to deal with the huge monster.

Game 2 I had a better start, using Force of Will on an early lock piece, and blowing up a Metalworker with an Abrupt Decay. Sylvan Library allowed me to draw a few extra cards and put more pressure on, and he finally lost due to not finding any threats and my two 5/6 Tarmogoyfs.

Game 3 was similar. I had an early Force of Will to slow down his lock pieces. I landed a turn 2 Sylvan Library. We both Wasteland each other twice over subsequent turns, but I land a Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay his Metalworker, shutting him off mana. My followup Liliana of the Veil to kill his newly cast Forgemaster, and then a Life from the Loam getting back three Wasteland drew the concession.

Matches 1-0, Games 2-1

Round 2 versus Brian on Death and Taxes

Game 1 I win the die roll and start turn 2 with Hymn to Tourach, getting a couple threats out of his hand, and answer his Thalia with Tarmogoyf. I attack with my 6/7 Goyf, and he has to hold back his creatures to block over two turns, and doesn't find anything to deal with the Tarmogoyf.

Game 2 he plays a turn 2 Phyrexian Revoker naming Deathrite Shaman, seeing my one on board, and then next turn I play two more, and never find anything to deal with the Revoker, severely constraining my mana. He finds Batterskull with Stoneforge Mystic, and although I have Engineered Plague to deal with his Thalia and Mother of Runes, and Maelstrom Pulse to kill the Batterskull, I can't deal with Mirran Crusader, and it eventually beats me down.

Game 3 an early Engineered Plague deals with his Mother of Runes, and even though he has another Mirran Crusader, I get way ahead, hitting with two Tarmogoyfs and Creeping Tar Pit, getting him down to 6 from 17, after he attacks me down to 6. His board is only Mirran Crusader after a piece of removal and active Liliana of the Veil, and I'm able to attack for the win.

Matches 2-0, Games 4-2

Round 3 versus Brian on Belcher

Game 1 I keep a hand that's something like Force of Will, Brainstorm, Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, and three lands. My opponent casts Chrome Mox, Rite of Flame, exile Simian Spirit Guide, Seething Song, Goblin Charbelcher, and I Force the Charbelcher. He scoops and we go to game 2.

Game 2 we both mulligan, him to 5, me down to 6. I keep a hand with two Brainstorm, Deathrite, Ancestral Vision, and two lands. My scry shows me Force of Will, and I hope he doesn't have the turn 1. He does not, but tries to go for it turn 2, and I have Force of Will again. He just draws a few more Chrome Moxes, while my Deathrite Shamans eat his life total, and after my Ancestral Vision comes off suspend, I Abrupt Decay his Carpet of Flowers, and make him discard both cards in his hand with Duress and Thoughtseize drawn off Ancestral Vision. I win shortly after.

Matches 3-0, Games 6-2

Round 4 versus John on Miracles

Game 1, my opponent resolves turn 1 Sensei's Divining Top and turn 2 Counterbalance. I attempt to slow-roll him, not wanting to play anything into the lock and waste it, so I wait until I find a Abrupt Decay, which comes a few turns later. My life total approaches 30 after two Tarmogoyfs get Swords to Plowshared. A Shardless Agent gets a few pokes in, and finally a third Tarmogoyf joins the fray, protected by Vendilion Clique in response to his Miracle'd Terminus, and I finish him off the next turn.

Game 2 I open on Ancestral Vision suspended. My Deathrite Shaman gets him a few times, and then he resolves a Blood Moon, locking me out of the game. The Ancestral Vision got a Pyroblast, so I scooped up my cards and moved on to game 3.

Game 3 my opponent answers everything I play. Four creatures are hit with Swords to Plowshares, Counterspell stops Garruk Relentless. I use Abrupt Decay on Monastery Mentor, and Maelstrom Pulse on the resulting tokens. Abrupt Decay for his Rest in Peace. I almost get him with Notion Thief late in the game, but he has the perfect answers, with Swords on the Notion Thief after it resolves, and Flusterstorm for my Force of Will on the Swords. His Ponder allows him to set up an Entreat the Angels for 6 Angels, beating my 23 life total. My two Deathrite Shamans on the board were a bit too slow to finish out the game.

Matches 3-1, Games 7-4

Round 5 versus Thomas on UR Delver

In game 1, my opponent takes himself to 15 on his first turn with Gitaxian Probe into Gitaxian Probe, into Force of Will on my Deathrite Shaman. He plays control for a little while, until I'm able to land a Tarmogoyf, and hit him from 14 to 9 to 4, and then I take 16 from two Price of Progress and get a Lightning Bolt to finish it out.

Game 2 I have an aggressive start with Deathrite Shaman into Shardless Agent into Ancestral Visions, and I'm able to out-resource him. He does resolve another Price of Progress, but I'm able to race and finish him off.

Game 3 I start with a Duress and I see he kept a one-land hand with two Spell Pierce, Price of Progress, Ponder, Brainstorm, and Monastery Swiftspear. Since he played the turn 1 Delver of Secrets, I wanted to keep him from flipping it or finding another land, so I took the Brainstorm off my Duress. His Delver flips anyway, and he beats me for a couple turns, but has trouble finding land. I find an Abrupt Decay for his Delver, but he makes more threats. I start to develop a huge board, fetching my basic lands to prevent Price of Progress pain, my Ancestral Vision comes off suspend, find Tarmogoyf off Shardless Agent, a second Shardless Agent into Ancestral Vision, then Baleful Strix, and finally Liliana of the Veil. His board is unflipped Delver, Monastery Swiftspear, and Stormchaser Mage, but he can't attack into my board of creatures, especially Baleful Strix. I keep pressure on with Tarmogoyf and Shardless Agent, and he's forced to block to keep from dying, and the next turn I'm able to active my two Deathrite Shaman to finish him off. Basically just got to value him out of the game.

Matches 4-1, Games 9-5

Round 6 versus Justin on Shardless

Game 1, I lose the die roll, and have to protect my hand from his turn 2 Hymn to Tourach with Force of Will. I'm way behind after he uses Abrupt Decay on my Deathrite Shaman and then plays Tarmogoyf, and resolves Ancestral Vision, making more threats, and I'm not able to catch up.

Game 2 I have kind of a slow start, losing my Deathrite Shaman again to Abrupt Decay, and he finds the cards he needs off Sylvan Library, following it up with Jace, the Mind Sculptor. The turn his T1 Ancestral Vision comes off suspend, I cast Notion Thief, trying to steal his card draw, but he has the exact answer in Disfigure to kill it before his Ancestral Vision resolves. He then casts Shardless Agent into Ancestral Vision, plus his Jace Brainstorm allowed him to draw 8 cards in one turn. I scooped up my cards and conceded after that.

Matches 4-2, Games 9-7

Round 7 versus John on Show and Tell

Game 1 I'm on the play, and get a quick start of Deathrite Shaman into Baleful Strix, but his turn 2 Griselbrand is a more powerful play, getting it onto the battlefield due to an unstopped Show and Tell. He draws 7 cards off it, and doesn't find what he needs, while my Baleful Strix holds it off. The next turn he is able to get Sneak Attack and Emrakul to attack me, and I have to sac most of my board, and he runs away with the game.

Game 2 I'm again on the play, and he doesn't have the combo in hand apparently and has a slow start, so he's forced to play defense, using Force of Will to stop a Tarmogoyf and Spell Pierce on Liliana of the Veil. With only four cards in hand, my Hymn to Tourach causes him to discard two big creatures, and my Deathrite Shaman backed up by another Tarmogoyf puts the game away.

Game 3 I'm on the draw, and his second-turn play off Ancient Tomb and Volcanic Island is Blood Moon. Luckily, I have basic Swamp and Tropical Island in play, so I float the green mana and Abrupt Decay the Blood Moon to keep myself in the game. My opponent is very upset that I blew up the card that he intended to keep me from playing actual Magic, so I follow that up with Liliana of the Veil and start stripping cards out of his hand. Vendilion Clique to follow that up shows little in his hand of interest, but I have him put Omniscience on the bottom, keeping Emrakul and Spell Pierce. Vendilion Clique attacks him over a couple turns, while Liliana and other discard spells keep him off cards. He scoops after I ultimate my Liliana of the Veil, having him sacrifice a second blood moon, plus two other lands, leaving him with only three lands in play and no cards in hand.

Matches 5-2, Games 11-8

Round 8 versus James on Turbo Depths

Game 1, my opponent opens on Urborg into Thoughtseize, and I wonder if I'm playing against Pox. His follow-up play is Thespian's Stage plus Expedition Map, and I try to keep him off another land, which I assume will be Dark Depths, by destroying the Map. But he has other plans, and exiles Elvish Spirit Guide, taps his Urborg, and goes to get Dark Depths. I die two turns later to an unanswered 20/20 creature.

Game 2 my turn 1 duress finds him with two Dark Depths, two Verdant Catacombs, Swamp, Elvish Spirit Guide, and Crop Rotation. I take the Crop Rotation, and next turn make a Tarmogoyf and start beating him down. A couple turns later, he finds the Thespian's Stage, but I have a Baleful Strix to hold off the token. Then I find Jace, the Mind Sculptor to bounce the token. He plays a Vampire Hexmage to kill my Jace, but I kill him with Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman activations.

Game 3 he goes Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Vampire Hexmage, Dark Depths, make a 20/20. I question my life choices and concede the game.

Matches 5-3, Games 12-10

Round 9 versus Nathanial on Storm

Game 1, my opponent opens on Gitaxian Probe and Volcanic Island, so I figure I'm playing against some Delver deck. I was wrong, when my second turn Hymn to Tourach gets his Infernal Tutor and Cabal Ritual. A follow up Hymn off Shardless Agent strips more cards out of his hand, and I beat down and he doesn't have time to rebuild.

Game 2, my opponent opens on Young Pyromancer, Gitaxian Probe, Lotus Petal, Ponder, and I'm suddenly in real trouble. I have a Deathrite to slow things down, and then a Shardless Agent into Tarmogoyf turns things around. My followup Shardless into Ancestral Vision found Duress plus Thoughtseize, and he had no more cards in hand, forced to block my Tarmogoyf, and he's done.

Matches 6-3, Games 14-10

I'm at 6-3 and I made day 2! Being a little far behind in match points makes it difficult to finish in the money, but I'm just happy to play more Legacy. I grabbed dinner with friends, and headed home to crash.

Back at the site on Sunday morning for more gaming.

Round 10 versus Duncan on Eldrazi

Duncan wins the die roll, and on turn 1 plays Thorn of Amethyst. I have no choice but to let it resolve, my hand of Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm, Liliana, Jace, Abrupt Decay, and two lands suddenly looking very bad. Turn two he casts Thought-Knot Seer, taking my Tarmogoyf, and a third-turn Thought-Knot Seer, taking another card. I chumped with Deathrite Shaman, but lost on the next turn.

Game 2 my opponent started with Thorn, I forced his second-turn Thought-Knot Seer, but he followed that up with another, an Endless One, and then Reality Smasher on turn 4. I couldn't handle the onslaught.

Matches 6-4, Games 14-12

Round 11 versus Jeremy on Lands

Game 1 my opponent started with Thespian's Stage, Mox Diamond, and passed the turn. He Abrupt Decayed my turn 2 Tarmogoyf and Turn 3 Liliana of the Veil and made a turn 4 Marit Lage token, so I scooped.

Game 2 I had Sylvan Library early. I Force of Will'ed a Crop Rotation, and was able to play around his Choke by fetching non-Islands. He had Maze of Ith for my Goyf, but Shardless Agent got there, and finished it off with Deathrite activations.

Game 3 I started with an early Deathrite, prioritizing eating his lands with it. He had Tabernacle early, but I found Wasteland for that, and ate it with my Deathrite. I beat a second-turn Choke from him with Golgari Charm. I forgot to draw off an Ancestral Vision that I cast, but found another Deathrite and suspended over two more turns two more Ancestral Vision. A third Deathrite hit the board, followed by Garruk Relentless, and he was forced to turn Thespian Stages into Mazes to blank the wolf tokens. Deathrites kept his graveyard clean of lands and I got his Life from the Loams. Finally I was able to get him with Deathrite Shaman activations.

Matches 7-4, Games 16-13

Round 12 versus Adonnys on Shardless BUG

Game 1 he has a very aggressive start, using Abrupt Decay on my Deathrite Shaman, hitting me with Wasteland, and I'm out of the game quickly.

Game 2 is quite the grind fest. We both set up with Deathrite Shamans, but I'm able to use Sylvan Library to gain advantage. We both build over a couple turns, Shardless Agents and Tarmogoyfs on both sides, until I'm able to Shardless into Ancestral Vision, find removal for his Deathrite Shamans, and take over the game.

Game 3 he opens on Deathrite, gets turn 3 Liliana to kill my Tarmogoyf, I follow up with Garruk Relentless, making a wolf to hold off his Shardless Agent and two Deathrite Shamans. He finds another Liliana of the Veil, killing my wolf, attacking and killing my Garruk. My Ancestral Vision comes off suspend, and I play a Shardless Agent into Tarmogoyf, followed up by Baleful Strix, and then time is called. He plays a Jace on his first game of turns, and I steal his Jace Brainstorm with flashed-in Notion Thief. Then on my turn I attack and kill his Liliana. The board is about even when we run out of turns, life totals my 10 to his 9 with both a significant board presence, my Liliana, Strix, Goyf, Shardless, and Creeping Tar Pit (with bounced Notion Thief and other spells in hand) to his two Deathrites and Jace. I decide a draw won't help either of us, so I concede the game to him and wish him luck in the rest of the tournament, and drop from the main event.

Had some great games and met some great people. Always fun playing Legacy (unless you get turn 1 Marit Lage, that's not so great).

I have talked about my sideboard choices, especially agonizing over having sideboard hate for graveyard-based decks, and I never saw one all day, except for Lands where I did bring in one Nihil Spellbomb, but it never made a difference.

Notion Thief only worked in one match to steal a Jace activation. I feel like it doesn't do enough, and it's fragile, so I might go in a different direction there.

Sylvan Library was an all-star, winning several games outright.

Happy with the discard package, it was key against Sneak + Show and Storm, as I had planned.

Golgari Charm, Disfigure, Toxic Deluge, and especially Engineered Plague were big hits all day, especially against Death and Taxes.

Very happy with the deck, I think Shardless is still a great choice for the meta. I might tweak the sideboard a bit, but the main is pretty solid. Here was my list for the weekend:

Creatures (16)
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
3x Baleful Strix
1x Vendilion Clique
Spells (20)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Hymn to Tourach
Planeswalkers (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
Lands (21)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
3x Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Disfigure
1 Notion Thief
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Cant tell if i love or hate the mainboard vclique

[minyafriend]

anybody going to the channel fireball 3k this weekend?

[btm10]

I'm going to Eternal Extravaganza, probably both days (I have byes for Saturday, so definitely then. I'm less excited about Vintage, but I still may show up). I'm not locked on Shardless right now (might play Miracles, might play some Delver deck, might play Loam), but if anyone wants to meet up that'd be cool.

[minyafriend]

I'm going to Eternal Extravaganza, probably both days (I have byes for Saturday, so definitely then. I'm less excited about Vintage, but I still may show up). I'm not locked on Shardless right now (might play Miracles, might play some Delver deck, might play Loam), but if anyone wants to meet up that'd be cool.

What's your current shardless list I can't remember the last time I saw it? Mine is basically lejays online and way skewed towards maverick/d+t in my weekly meta.

[btm10]

If I play Shardless, it'll be something along these lines:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dimir Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Crucible of Worlds

I cut Jace for the Dimir Charm MD because I was increasingly boarding him out against everything but the mirror, Lands, and Loam, and Punishing Fire means that he's unspectacular in those matchups except the mirror. Jace is great against Miracles if he sticks, but they're boarding in 2-3 Blasts and getting a 4 mana spell countered for one mana is a blowout. Garruk is every bit as good in the mirror while also being a haymaker against Miracles and every creature deck. I typically even bring him in on the play against Delver decks since they tend to shave 2-4 Dazes on the draw. I'd like to add a Pithing Needle to the board, probably replacing a discard spell; I'd likely make some change MD to hedge against combo a bit in that case. In testing I've preferred Crucible to Loam even though you can't Cascade into it. Dredge is a real cost without cycling or utility lands and you're almost invariably using Loam to replay Tar Pit, Wasteland, or a Fetch or to fill up your hand with bunk to throw away to Liliana, and Crucible does all of those except the last one. Loaming back Lands to throw away to Liliana is something that's only advisable when you're either desperate or ahead, so I'm fine giving up the absolute best Liliana +1s in favor of investing less tempo overall to get a broadly similar effect. Since the list isn't final, here are cards 76-80:

76: Sylvan Library
77: Ancestral Vision #4
78: Baleful Strix #3
79: Jace, the Mind Sculptor
80: Dimir Charm #2

[grahilah]

Cant tell if i love or hate the mainboard vclique

Haha yeah I feel the same way. It's just something I've been trying out. It's been okay, won me a couple games at the GP, but sometimes it just pitches to Force of Will. Leaving it in for now.

[minyafriend]

I cut Jace for the Dimir Charm MD because I was increasingly boarding him out against everything but the mirror, Lands, and Loam, and Punishing Fire means that he's unspectacular in those matchups except the mirror. Jace is great against Miracles if he sticks, but they're boarding in 2-3 Blasts and getting a 4 mana spell countered for one mana is a blowout. Garruk is every bit as good in the mirror while also being a haymaker against Miracles and every creature deck. I typically even bring him in on the play against Delver decks since they tend to shave 2-4 Dazes on the draw. I'd like to add a Pithing Needle to the board, probably replacing a discard spell; I'd likely make some change MD to hedge against combo a bit in that case. In testing I've preferred Crucible to Loam even though you can't Cascade into it. Dredge is a real cost without cycling or utility lands and you're almost invariably using Loam to replay Tar Pit, Wasteland, or a Fetch or to fill up your hand with bunk to throw away to Liliana, and Crucible does all of those except the last one. Loaming back Lands to throw away to Liliana is something that's only advisable when you're either desperate or ahead, so I'm fine giving up the absolute best Liliana +1s in favor of investing less tempo overall to get a broadly similar effect. Since the list isn't final, here are cards 76-80:


i havent lost a game against miracles that i stuck a garruk. hes a beast. i always want to bring him in against delvers but im too wary of spell pierce/daze/ etc to bring in a 4 drop when im cutting jaces already. interesting point about bringing him in on the play though.... why not run pithing needle instead of the 2nd pulse? i almost want to put a 2nd pithing needle in my sb!

[btm10]

i havent lost a game against miracles that i stuck a garruk. hes a beast. i always want to bring him in against delvers but im too wary of spell pierce/daze/ etc to bring in a 4 drop when im cutting jaces already. interesting point about bringing him in on the play though.... why not run pithing needle instead of the 2nd pulse? i almost want to put a 2nd pithing needle in my sb!

I'm not as concerned about Pierce since it's typically a 1-of in BUG and Grixis Delvers and it has to line up perfectly (they need to leave it in, too, which doesn't always happen) to answer Garruk, and you always have the option to play around it. I wouldn't bring Garruk in against RUG. Blasts always trade with Jace, even if he's in play, and aren't very good at answering anything but Jace (out of Delver).

I could see running a Needle over the second Pulse, since Pulse is largely there for the same things Needle is.

[reedy26]

hi everybody.

with the release of EMA i've been considering entering legacy and i believe Shardless is the deck for me (partly because i already have some of the cards and some are available in EMA, but also because the deck genuinely sounds fun to play).

I do have a couple of queries about the deck though, some might seem a bit stupid but please bare in mind I'm very new to legacy so don't really understand the metagame properly yet...

1) why does the deck not try to fit divining top and counterbalance in? just seems like a useful small combo to have in then deck
2) how necessary is thoughtseize vs hymn? in what metagame would you choose one over the other?
3) what is the likely reason for the huge variance in jace's and lili's in most builds? i'm considering the 3 lili two jace variants, why do some people play less?
4) why are sinkholes not played in this deck? from a modern perspective sinkhole seems like a pretty good card and i can't understand why you wouldn't want to destroy your opponent's lands for 2 black mana! :P

again, sorry for the noob questions, this deck does seem really cool though and given the cost i'd like to understand legacy and the deck a bit more before jumping into such a huge investment.

thanks guys :)

[Vandalize]

hi everybody.

with the release of EMA i've been considering entering legacy and i believe Shardless is the deck for me (partly because i already have some of the cards and some are available in EMA, but also because the deck genuinely sounds fun to play).

I do have a couple of queries about the deck though, some might seem a bit stupid but please bare in mind I'm very new to legacy so don't really understand the metagame properly yet...

1) why does the deck not try to fit divining top and counterbalance in? just seems like a useful small combo to have in then deck
2) how necessary is thoughtseize vs hymn? in what metagame would you choose one over the other?
3) what is the likely reason for the huge variance in jace's and lili's in most builds? i'm considering the 3 lili two jace variants, why do some people play less?
4) why are sinkholes not played in this deck? from a modern perspective sinkhole seems like a pretty good card and i can't understand why you wouldn't want to destroy your opponent's lands for 2 black mana! :P

again, sorry for the noob questions, this deck does seem really cool though and given the cost i'd like to understand legacy and the deck a bit more before jumping into such a huge investment.

thanks guys :)

1) Counterbalance UU cost is very prohibitive. This deck is essencially BGu, with blue being only cantrips and Force of Will. Sensei's Divining Top gives card quality, but we don't need that, we draw plenty of cards already.

2) Hymn is better against a unknown field. Thoughtseize is better against Show and Tell and GY-based decks (like Dredge and Reanimator).

3) Planeswalkers are good against control and aggro. They're terrible against combo. You need to adjust your deck to your metagame.

4) Some lists don't even play 4 Wastelands. I guess Sinkhole is better suited in some Pox/BG Loam variants. I'd play Hymn over Sinkhole anyday.

My list, for reference:

Lands [22]
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Wasteland

Cretures [15]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

Spells [23]
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard [15]
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Dismember
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique/Life from the Loam (I switch these up depending on what I expect to see)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

More importantly, counterbalance is an absolutely terrible cascade.

[nantukoavatar]

Report from the GP. This was my second GP and my goal going in was to make day 2.

I won two byes on Friday playing in a last chance qualifier. I played in two of them, top 4 in my first and won the second. 8-1 on the day. I did not take notes however I did use the same 75,

Saturday
Round 3 Grixis delver.
Game 1: I had to mulligan to 5, he took my shardless on turn two after a probe, could not recover.

Game 2: Mulligan to 6, being on the play was a big help, and after two hymms a goyf made quick work.

Game 3: He had the nut draw making 4 elemental tokens by turn 4. I did not find the charm or toxic to kill them

2-1

Round 4 Mericles
Game1: He got the counter top lock and I did not draw the abrupt decay until he had a jace up ticking.

Game2: I took an aggressive line with a Lilly in play and two cards, hymm and pulse. He had three cards in his hand and a monk token. I made us both discard and hymmed him so we where both top decking. His first top deck was Jace. I did not come back.

2-2
Round 5: ANT
Game 1: I was on the play I started with deathrite, into turn two shardless, flipping a goyph. On his turn two he cast ad nauseam killed himself.

Game 2: I kept a hand with thoughtsieve, hymm, deathright, 3 lands, and a shardless. He cast a turn one ad nauseam and cast tendrils for 22.

Game 3: I mulled the to 4 looking for lands. Kept a had with 2 death right, a force, and a goyph. on my first draw I found a blue card, but he took the force with a duress. He spends a few turns cantripping and I find a land on turn 5. Play my first deathright Next turn he ad nauseam's into 18 goblins and 2 bob's and down to 8 life. my deathright takes him to 4. and I play a land, my second deathrite and leave up a bayou. His bob flips an infernal tutor, and I kill him with my deathrite.

3-2
Round 6:Punishing Jund
Game 1: the main deck toxic was an mvp and got me a 3 for 1. He did not have an answer to goyph that was left.

Game 2: he beat me a quick draw and a knight of the reliquary.

Game 3: I kept a hand of 4 lands (one of which was the stronghold), brainstorm, decay, an simic charm. I played a fetch and passed. He thoughtsieved and I brainstormed into 3 more lands. I put the charm and the decay back. Meaning that he couldn't take a card. I decayed the library he played on turn 2. on turn three I drew into a shardless, flipping a goyph. From there the stronghold made sure that I always had a creature and that he could not kill my shardless.

4-2
Round 7: Shardless BUG
Game 1: he suspended a visions on turns 1, 2, and 3. I suspended my own on 1. my visions finds me a force to answer his second visions. And my main deck toxic got me a 2 for 1. From there Lilly was the star while we where both top decking.a goyph closed out the game.

Game 2: I cast a turn two shardless into a second deathrite. Turn 3 killed his goyph, and on turn 4 played garruk. and made a pack of wolves.

Round 8: Sneak and Show
Game 1: a turn two show and tell into emrakul made quick work of me.

Game 2: I played a turn two goyph, with a force in hand. he cast a blood moon, which I let resolve. From there I attacked him down to 7. But he had counter back up for his sneak attack, but had no open mana. my gopyh only took him down to 1 and on the next turn he attack for 22 with emrakul and griselbrand

5-3
Round 9: BUG Delever
Game 1: this was one of the grindiest games of my life with a total of 5 deathrites in play at once. But his flipped delever carried him. A top deck toxic in the last 5 turns would have changed the game.

Clock was a real concern at this point as we only had about 25 minutes left.

Game 2: I get the nut draw turn turn shardless into gopyh with removal to get rid of his goyph on turn 3.

Game 3: he started with a turn one deathrite, and followed it up with another deathrite and a delver. I played goyph and pass. He played a few cantrips and attacked with his unflipped delver. I played a toxic and goyph carried me into day 2.

6-3

Sunday
Round 10: eldrazi
Game 1: I am on the play but don't have a turn 1 play. He plays chalice on 1. I play a hymm hitting a chalice and a thorn of amethyst. He plays a turn two ThoughtKnot and takes my shardless. A turn 3 Smasher is to much for me to recover from.

Game 2: We have a grindy match with his displacer stopping me from attacking, but the board is stalled out. We where both in top deck, but he goes Thought Knot into Smasher and I go fetch into fetch.

Round 11: Sneak and Show
Game 1: He mulled to 5 and did not get what he needed for the combo and my creatures won me the game.

Game 2: Turn 1 needle on Sneak, and turn two meddling mage on Show and Tell made short work of the match.

7-4
Round 12: Lands
Game 1: While dredging to find the stage for his dark depths I was able to close out the game.

Game 2: He Gambles on turn one to find this loam, and starts dredging, he finds the depths but can't find the stage. But his maze slows down his goyph. However I play a click on his draw step to put the loam on the bottom of the deck. he needed to draw a stage on that turn but fails, I waste his maze and kill him.

8-4
Round 13: Death and Taxes
Game 1: A turn one mother of runes makes the game very hard, and the second one closes it out.

Game 2: golgari charm did a 4 for 1, shardless and goyph close out the game.

Game 3: He draws all 4 of his waste lands, 2 ports, and removal for both of my deathrites the turn I play them. Finally he gets an angel out an I don't find enough land.

8-5 drop.

Still I was super happy with my results (16-6 on the weekend) and for making my first day 2.

Overall I loved the deck, and the side board was great. I think I would cut a fetch for another tropical as I found a few times I didn't like only having the one. Gurrak has been great for me, I am 9-0 life time when I cast him, and was happy with the meddling mage package. The real spicy one for me was the simic charm. I found it very useful and although it didn't make any major plays over the weekend, I found myself wanting it a lot. All three modes on the card are good for us.

Also the one of stronghold was great and single handedly won me 4 games thoughtout the weekend.

I look forward to many more games with this deck:
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ancestral Vision

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disfigure
1 Simic Charm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Scrubland
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless

[Krimson Viper]

What do we do against Food Chain BUG?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

After looking at GP Prague and some other recent lists, I think I agree with their thoughts and have been testing this today against Grixis Delver to a 2-1 finish in matches. No real notes, as he's learning and so am I, but I do believe I did a lot of things right and liked what the deck was doing overall, here's the list. I'm getting happier with the way my sideboard is changing, as well as what I've stolen from the GP Prague list that did best:

4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Strix
4 Agent
1 Clique

4 FoW
2 T-Seize
2 Hymn
2 Liliana
1 Library
3 A. Vision
4 Brainstorm
3 AD
1 Pulse
1 Deluge

3 Wasteland
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 CTP
1 Trop
2 Bayou
3 USea
1 Misty
4 Verdant
4 Delta

Board:
1 Jace
1 NoSB
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Deluge
1 G's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 AD
1 Surg. Extraction
1 Disfigure
1 G. Charm
1 T-Seize
1 Library
1 Needle

I think I'll drop a Ravenous Trap for Extraction #2. I also wouldn't mind squeezing in the 2nd Null Rod, but I can't see where I would put it.

Also, a reminder that this is for a painter/storm/dredge/reanimator and or Tin Fins/Imper. Bomberman, with a smaller amount of fair lists such as Burn, Merfolk, DnT, CounterSlivers, Miracles, the mirror, Enchantress, Junk, and Grixis Delver among other things.

Thanks so much for all the help so far, I'm doing well with this list and it feels good.

[btm10]

Went 6-3 at Eternal Extravaganza, losing to Grixis Dlver (I got Wastelanded 5.5 times in 2 games, the 0.5 is due to his open Wasteland forcing me to fetch basic Forest to cast Decay and never finding a blue source to cast the Brainstorms and Agents in my hand), UB Omnitell (didn't find enough interaction either game), and Eldrazi (I flooded out game 3 and he drew too many gigantic guys; there was a single combat that I might have been able to navigate differently, but I think I ended up on the best line), and beating the bye, Burn, Enchantress (the way you beat those is running perfect and having your opponent make mistakes), Eldrazi, Infect, and Ur Delver. Crucible and Jitte were absolutley fantastic, and basically have their spots in the board locked up. Tombstalker earned his keep all day, winning me two different games Strix would've lost me. I ran this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest


Sideboard

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Jitte was a last minute addition as a tool to fight D&T while not being terrible in other fair matchups (Disfigure can be dead sometimes and I didn't want a third). I was definitely wrong in the past about it being too clunky. I flooded out several times throughout the day and bricked on land far longer than I should've in my Delver matchup, so I'm going to be re-examining a lot about how I'm building the deck over the next few weeks with a particular eye toward getting some more cantrips into the deck.

[Whit3boy316]

Played in local event. About 11 people or so
Overall: 2-2
Round 1: played against lands. It sucked. Lost 2-0 pretty easily

0-1

Round 2: game 1: played against infect. Game 1 i essentialy hymn his hand away while he beats down with inkmoth. He has 1 card in hand and i cast my mainboard vclique to see he has a force if will. V clique acted as a blocked while i beat with goyf
Game 2: i side in engineered plague, 2 disfigure, 2 golgari charm. I disfigure his t1 noble. I play the game wanting it to go late. I eventually brainstorm into eplague but i didnt think i could name "blinkmoth" considering thats the only infect creature on the field. Eventually get a wasteland and go for beats

1-1

Round 3: played miracles. Game 1 i t2 hymn. He forces. I firce back. T3 i play lilly, t4 i play jace....he scoops

Game 2: he durdles and we both have 1 card in hand. I have null rod and eplague (on monk..should have been human..not sure if the tokens are human) i brainstorm and find shardless and AV. He was carless with his hand so i thought i saw a pyroblast so i tried to play around it and not waste my time on AV and fetched it away. Turned out to be wear//tear whcuh removed null rod amd eplague..i should have been smarter, could have won.

Game3 he durdles (as miracles does) and eventually guets the double top mentor action going...cant find a way out. Lose

1-2

Round 4 oppenent was a no show bit he was playing affinity and we were testing pre-tourney.

2-2

Overall it was ok. I felt like thw dexk was well places in the meta....3 miracles, 2 infect, lands, d&t, affinity,burn, grixis delver.
I enjoyed the main board vclique. It gave me more info and a resonable beater.

Theres my report. Felt good but hoping i can do better. I really want this deck to be successful, i enjoy it to much for it not to win

[Whit3boy316]

Went 6-3 at Eternal Extravaganza, losing to Grixis Dlver (I got Wastelanded 5.5 times in 2 games, the 0.5 is due to his open Wasteland forcing me to fetch basic Forest to cast Decay and never finding a blue source to cast the Brainstorms and Agents in my hand), UB Omnitell (didn't find enough interaction either game), and Eldrazi (I flooded out game 3 and he drew too many gigantic guys; there was a single combat that I might have been able to navigate differently, but I think I ended up on the best line), and beating the bye, Burn, Enchantress (the way you beat those is running perfect and having your opponent make mistakes), Eldrazi, Infect, and Ur Delver. Crucible and Jitte were absolutley fantastic, and basically have their spots in the board locked up. Tombstalker earned his keep all day, winning me two different games Strix would've lost me. I ran this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Jitte was a last minute addition as a tool to fight D&T while not being terrible in other fair matchups (Disfigure can be dead sometimes and I didn't want a third). I was definitely wrong in the past about it being too clunky. I flooded out several times throughout the day and bricked on land far longer than I should've in my Delver matchup, so I'm going to be re-examining a lot about how I'm building the deck over the next few weeks with a particular eye toward getting some more cantrips into the deck.

What were your win/losses?

[btm10]

What were your win/losses?

In the post you quoted.

[minyafriend]

I've been taking a poll lately to see what most legacy players would do in a specific situation and thought I'd toss it up here to see what y'all think.

You're on shardless and you know your opponent is on miracles. It's game one.

You won the die roll and played polluted delta fetching an underground sea and played a deathrite shaman. its their turn and your hand is verdant catacombs, brainstorm, force of will, abrupt decay and wasteland.

They play island and cast a top.

Do you force the top pitching brainstorm potentially losing to jace/entreat/etc. Later in the game if you don't find another force?
Or do you let it resolve and attempt to in your next turns abrupt decay the top in response to a fetch allowing them to potentially draw and shuffle the top into their deck, saving the force for a spell you actually die to. That is assuming you don't think you're already losing every turn a top is in play under their control.
A reason why you would do one or the other would be appreciated as well.
I usually just try to save my forces for things that I just straight die to and let tops resolve and deal with them in a somewhat suboptimal way (abrupt decay in response to fetch). It seems to work usually but the games tend to go really long that way. Maybe this is fundamentally incorrect and top is really just worth forcing since its their main way of doing anything at all.

[btm10]

I've been taking a poll lately to see what most legacy players would do in a specific situation and thought I'd toss it up here to see what y'all think.

You're on shardless and you know your opponent is on miracles. It's game one.

You won the die roll and played polluted delta fetching an underground sea and played a deathrite shaman. its their turn and your hand is verdant catacombs, brainstorm, force of will, abrupt decay and wasteland.

They play island and cast a top.

Do you force the top pitching brainstorm potentially losing to jace/entreat/etc. Later in the game if you don't find another force?
Or do you let it resolve and attempt to in your next turns abrupt decay the top in response to a fetch allowing them to potentially draw and shuffle the top into their deck, saving the force for a spell you actually die to. That is assuming you don't think you're already losing every turn a top is in play under their control.
A reason why you would do one or the other would be appreciated as well.
I usually just try to save my forces for things that I just straight die to and let tops resolve and deal with them in a somewhat suboptimal way (abrupt decay in response to fetch). It seems to work usually but the games tend to go really long that way. Maybe this is fundamentally incorrect and top is really just worth forcing since its their main way of doing anything at all.

I almost never even bother Decaying Tops, so I definitely wouldn't Force one here. With the addition of Monastery Mentor they have way too many powerful targets to waste a Decay on a Top, especially since they're so good at finding additional Tops once they have one. Beating even 3 or 4 Monks isn't difficult if they only have one Top and Mentor isn't there to rebuild the team. Preboard we're pretty much locked in to either making them discard the Top before they play it or living with it in play.

[MorphBerlin]

I've been taking a poll lately to see what most legacy players would do in a specific situation and thought I'd toss it up here to see what y'all think.

You're on shardless and you know your opponent is on miracles. It's game one.

You won the die roll and played polluted delta fetching an underground sea and played a deathrite shaman. its their turn and your hand is verdant catacombs, brainstorm, force of will, abrupt decay and wasteland.

They play island and cast a top.

Do you force the top pitching brainstorm potentially losing to jace/entreat/etc. Later in the game if you don't find another force?


I don't bother with the top and don't use either option to fight it. I want to Force Entreat or Jace or push through my own Jace and especially wouldn't force since I have to Pitch BS when I already have 1 Dead card + Fetch in my Hand. Decay needs to be hold up for CB. You can think about decaying their top when you have 2+ Decays but I almost never do it, because it is still -1 CA and they have so many cantrips to find a new one.

[hofzge]

I look forward to many more games with this deck:
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ancestral Vision

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disfigure
1 Simic Charm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Scrubland
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless

I love your deck - You made a lot of choices that I like. I played this yesterday in our LGS to a 3-0 (Monobrown Stax, NicFit, Deathblade):

4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ancestral Vision
2x Baleful Strix
2x Bayou
4x Brainstorm
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Force of Will
1x Forest
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
4x Shardless Agent
1x Swamp
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

SB:
1x Baleful Strix
2x Dismember
1x Flusterstorm
1x Invasive Surgery
1x Life from the Loam
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvan Library
3x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

I loved the deck and the fact that it plays 4 planeswalkers was very relevant as I played 3 very grindy games. In the sideboard I like to have at least 2 Pithing Needles and some grind cards like the Life from the Loam and the Sylvan Library.

As you mentioned before Loam and the Vendilion Clique are exchangeable. Also between main and side you can exchange Baleful Strix #3 and Toxic Deluge #1. I liked having 1 Wrath main as opposed to having just a metric ton of value with the third Strix.

[James_Nguyen]

What do you guys think is the best card vs miracles?

[James_Nguyen]

I've been taking a poll lately to see what most legacy players would do in a specific situation and thought I'd toss it up here to see what y'all think.

You're on shardless and you know your opponent is on miracles. It's game one.

You won the die roll and played polluted delta fetching an underground sea and played a deathrite shaman. its their turn and your hand is verdant catacombs, brainstorm, force of will, abrupt decay and wasteland.

They play island and cast a top.

Do you force the top pitching brainstorm potentially losing to jace/entreat/etc. Later in the game if you don't find another force?
Or do you let it resolve and attempt to in your next turns abrupt decay the top in response to a fetch allowing them to potentially draw and shuffle the top into their deck, saving the force for a spell you actually die to. That is assuming you don't think you're already losing every turn a top is in play under their control.
A reason why you would do one or the other would be appreciated as well.
I usually just try to save my forces for things that I just straight die to and let tops resolve and deal with them in a somewhat suboptimal way (abrupt decay in response to fetch). It seems to work usually but the games tend to go really long that way. Maybe this is fundamentally incorrect and top is really just worth forcing since its their main way of doing anything at all.

I would 100% of the time force top there, games go long and it is their best card vs this deck. Them without top makes your discard better and some decks dont even play angels anymore.

[matunos]

What do you guys think is the best card vs miracles?

Sylvan Library

[btm10]

What do you guys think is the best card vs miracles?

It depends on how they're set up. Vision is obviously great preboard, though it's worse postboard when they bring in Blasts. Garruk Relentless is exceptional if they're not heavily committed to Mentor, and Sylvan Library creates a lot of advantage in long games. Hymn is great if you're on a fast draw and can operate more-or-less like BUG Delver, or if they're on a heavy Mentor build. Against the Predict/Mentor builds it's often possible to play the control role much more easily than it is against rhr Entreat builds, as Deluge can often just Time Walk them. I think that their heavy complement of Red Blasts postboard actually makes Jace pretty unimpressive at this point. Sidestepping them with nonblue Planeswalkers or something like Painful Truths might be better even though Jace is better on absolute power level.


I would 100% of the time force top there, games go long and it is their best card vs this deck. Them without top makes your discard better and some decks dont even play angels anymore.

This is an interesting line of thought. Sort of like my comments on Hymn above, I definitely see the logic if you had Agent or Goyf or if they led on Tundra and you could Wasteland them. As it is, you're not going to be able to capitalize on their lack of Top with just Deathrite for pressure. The other problem with Forcing there is that Brainstorm is your only blue card and the hand is light on things to do. I don't think you're locked in to Brainstorming next turn, but unless you find business in one of your next two draw steps it's probably necessary soon.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Forcing an early top can lead to them missing land drops early, making their midgame less powerful, which can let you win before they turn the corner. I also try my best to keep Top off the table. I mean, this deck draws well. Hitting gas in 2 turns or less makes it a good play imo.

[Whit3boy316]

Went 0-3 in a small event today. I actually didnt win a single game.

Lost to:
Infect
Junk deathblade (a really bad version of it)
Nic fit (jund colorset)

I had terrible draws. Terrible hands, the works. Iverall im rrally disappointed. I will give it another week before i go back to a delver deck and work to convert shardless to waterfalls...this deck needs a timeout lol

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[ironclad8690]

Went 0-3 in a small event today. I actually didnt win a single game.

Lost to:
Infect
Junk deathblade (a really bad version of it)
Nic fit (jund colorset)

I had terrible draws. Terrible hands, the works. Iverall im rrally disappointed. I will give it another week before i go back to a delver deck and work to convert shardless to waterfalls...this deck needs a timeout lol

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Meta sounds awful for Shardless.

[Whit3boy316]

Meta sounds awful for Shardless.

What would an idea meta look like im not really aure what i should move to.

Keep in mind i do play against miracles, d&t, grixis delver also

Im interested in RUG Cascade (waterfalls), delver (RUG is my love but i know grixis is the new hotness, jund, abzan stoneblade....all of which ( aside from delver) have more removal

[btm10]

Meta sounds awful for Shardless.

Aside from Nic Fit I think those are all good matchups. I realize we have very different experiences against Blade decks.



What would an idea meta look like im not really aure what i should move to.

Keep in mind i do play against miracles, d&t, grixis delver also

Im interested in RUG Cascade (waterfalls), delver (RUG is my love but i know grixis is the new hotness, jund, abzan stoneblade....all of which ( aside from delver) have more removal

Aaide from Nic Fit and D&T those are all even-to-favorable matchups. I'd stick with Shardless for a bit, you might just need practice.


Forcing an early top can lead to them missing land drops early, making their midgame less powerful, which can let you win before they turn the corner. I also try my best to keep Top off the table. I mean, this deck draws well. Hitting gas in 2 turns or less makes it a good play imo.

I think this is fine reasoning if you have a way to capitalize on them not having Top, but without Hymn or another threat you're throwing away a Brainstorm for a pretty minimal gain.

[Whit3boy316]

Aside from Nic Fit I think those are all good matchups. I realize we have very different experiences against Blade decks.

Deathblade gets out of hand due to not enough removal...moms, stoneforge, equipt's...there are just not enough abrupt decays lol


Aaide from Nic Fit and D&T those are all even-to-favorable matchups. I'd stick with Shardless for a bit, you might just need practice.



I think this is fine reasoning if you have a way to capitalize on them not having Top, but without Hymn or another threat you're throwing away a Brainstorm for a pretty minimal gain.

[ironclad8690]

I think Junk blade is not a favorable matchup, at least if they are running Hymn to Tourach.

I remember when I first got Shardless on MTGO, I was playing in the 2 man queues and this guy:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/273651#online

Just kept farming me. Lingering Souls matches up so well vs Hymn and Lili, and there are so many must-answers for us (Bob, Stoneforge, Equipment). I hated having FOW in my deck for g1 while my opponent has 2-for-1s instead.

The only way we can win is if they stumble on draws or we just hit nut cascades imo. One thing that can help is Night of Souls' Betrayal out of the board, but if they are on a more Goyf heavy version that might not be good enough.

Infect is fine, and the Miracles/Grixis Delver should be closer to even/favorable.

[btm10]

If they're running all of Mom, Bob, Lingering Souls, and Thalia, then I can see it being tough, but then they're playing Maverick. Most Junk Blade decks I see aren't running Mom, so maybe we're referring to different decks. I usually find that it isn't hard to beat them on velocity and random bodies like Shardless Agent matter a lot. It could also have something to do with me running more removal postboard than most other people.

[Whit3boy316]

With these creature heavy decks im playing against (infect, deathblades, d&t, nic fit) it makes me almost want to move my hymns to the board and have more removal main but im not sure. I may try out "waterfalls" or jund as they have more removal....i also have a junk blade deck of my own that may do well

[btm10]

With these creature heavy decks im playing against (infect, deathblades, d&t, nic fit) it makes me almost want to move my hymns to the board and have more removal main but im not sure. I may try out "waterfalls" or jund as they have more removal....i also have a junk blade deck of my own that may do well

More removal main seems like a reasonable approach. I think RUG Cascade is a garbage deck, so I can't recommend playing it.

[Whit3boy316]

More removal main seems like a reasonable approach. I think RUG Cascade is a garbage deck, so I can't recommend playing it.

Its a little odd to me as well but there is a guy in town having mild success with it. But i really hate having the same deck as someone i know, so i will try to add more removal to shardless. Im thinking -3 hymn/+2 disfigure +1 dismember.....moving the hymn to the board for combo/aether vial decks

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I placed 3rd today at Black Gold in Denver at the SCG IQ. 51 players in attendance, 6 rds of Swiss, cut to top 8. I went 5-1, a greedy misplay cost me a match loss in Rd 1, had it won and screwed it up, oh well, did good. I'll post more tomorrow, just got home 4 hrs later and now it's midnight. I'm wiped.

[James_Nguyen]

Went 5-1-1 at a local 1k. 40 people. Beat death blade three times, DnT and grixis delver. Lost to tin fins. I'm starting to think that we should just not board vs the bad matchup (burn) and only focus on the slight bad matchups.

[ironclad8690]

Went 5-1-1 at a local 1k. 40 people. Beat death blade three times, DnT and grixis delver. Lost to tin fins. I'm starting to think that we should just not board vs the bad matchup (burn) and only focus on the slight bad matchups.

I like this approach. What cards are in your board for Burn?

[ironclad8690]

Its a little odd to me as well but there is a guy in town having mild success with it. But i really hate having the same deck as someone i know, so i will try to add more removal to shardless. Im thinking -3 hymn/+2 disfigure +1 dismember.....moving the hymn to the board for combo/aether vial decks

I don't really recommend this, because Hymn is a 2 for 1. I know I am probably more happy about keeping it in vs midrange decks than other people in this thread, but removal is just 1 for 1. Shardless into hymn is a 3 for 1, and hymn by itself is at least a 2 for 1. Card advantage is super important in these matches. I might go down to 2 hymn and add 1 Dismember, then feel it out from there.

[James_Nguyen]

I like this approach. What cards are in your board for Burn?

I had a chill and a white leyline

[btm10]

Went 5-1-1 at a local 1k. 40 people. Beat death blade three times, DnT and grixis delver. Lost to tin fins. I'm starting to think that we should just not board vs the bad matchup (burn) and only focus on the slight bad matchups.

I agree with this too. It's just not worth doing.


I don't really recommend this, because Hymn is a 2 for 1. I know I am probably more happy about keeping it in vs midrange decks than other people in this thread, but removal is just 1 for 1. Shardless into hymn is a 3 for 1, and hymn by itself is at least a 2 for 1. Card advantage is super important in these matches. I might go down to 2 hymn and add 1 Dismember, then feel it out from there.

I tend to board Hymn out against creature matchups if at all possible. Removal (especially instant speed removal) is much more similar to a counterspell than discard is, and is a much better late game topdeck than Hymn. The deck is already so full of X-for-1s that Hymn isn't needed from a card economy perspective, and it's actually often a dead draw step (which is card disadvantage) by the midgame, and is a massive tempo suck if you have to cast it from behind on board. Removal on a clean board is still live in a way that Hymn against a hellbent opponent isn't. If my opponent is holding cards like permission or combo pieces in hand, then Hymn is the best card in the deck. If we're both playing to the board, Hymn is still great if we get ahead early but it's a terrible topdeck and is actually counterproductive from behind.

[Whit3boy316]

I agree with this too. It's just not worth doing.



I tend to board Hymn out against creature matchups if at all possible. Removal (especially instant speed removal) is much more similar to a counterspell than discard is, and is a much better late game topdeck than Hymn. The deck is already so full of X-for-1s that Hymn isn't needed from a card economy perspective, and it's actually often a dead draw step (which is card disadvantage) by the midgame, and is a massive tempo suck if you have to cast it from behind on board. Removal on a clean board is still live in a way that Hymn against a hellbent opponent isn't. If my opponent is holding cards like permission or combo pieces in hand, then Hymn is the best card in the deck. If we're both playing to the board, Hymn is still great if we get ahead early but it's a terrible topdeck and is actually counterproductive from behind.

I agree. I didnt play against any combo and for that reason i think i want my hymns in the board. I like that i can remove their hand so quickly but when they go t1 mom into t2 stoneforge/ thalia/goyf, hymn just doesnt cut it, id rather eot kil the dude then cast a shardless

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've been learning more and more that using your removal correctly is probably the reason some people are having problems with not having enough of it. Do what you want, but I feel like more reps will help you learn how the deck truly wants to be played. Anyway, no real report as I don't do well recalling and my notes are never adequate as I focus on the game and my lines of play before taking notes. Here is the skinny on the games I played.

LIST LOCATED AT BOTTOM OF POST.

RD 1: Richard, on 4C Delver

Game 1: First game of the day, I play too greedy. I have 2x Goyf and a clique, he an unflipped Delver. I swing will all for a sure victory the next turn, but leave myself open to delver plus bolt. He flips delver with a ponder and ponders into bolt. My bad. Grind it out, not quick beats. I'm learning all the time.

game 2: I hymned away his second land drop, he plays 2x delver turn 1/2, I deal with his board and waste his land. A turn or 2 later Goyf gets the scoop.

Game 3: I mull to 5 and just can't get there. I did well even with the mull, but still lost.

0-1


RD 2: Ethan, on Miracles

Game 1: I get there with a Creeping Tar Pit for 18 damage, Strix for the last 2 after a Back to Basics shuts off the manland.

Game 2: Early Shardless gets a few points, then Clique, then I clean up the match with Tar Pit. This card is awesome against Miracles, especially when paired up with a Library.

1-1

RD 3: Alex, on Storm

Game 1: He combos off fairly early. A Decay on LED and a hymn slowed him down, but I didn't have enough disruption for it to matter.

Game 2: A lot of work from DRS and Null Rod.

Game 3: An active Force and some hand disruption with a motley crew of beats gets there through multiple EtW combo turns. First one for 12 goblins gets answered by a Golgari Charm as the first card flipped to a blind cascade and then drew a Maelstrom Pulse, which answered the next EtW a few turns later.

2-1

RD 4: Matt, aggro Eldrazi (colorless) This is a teammate. He had played two other BUG lists previously and had beat them both

Game 1: I deal with his little guys while getting a wasteland heavy draw if I recall correctly and keep him off mana.

Game 2: His Chalices are irrelevant and he has no pressure other than a TKS, which I kill with Pulse and then Goyfs win the game in quick fashion.

3-1


RD 5: Andrew, Maverick(?) A sourcer, forgot his handle, but if you read this, Andrew, would you lmk if you were on maverick or what?

Game 1: Thoughtseize rips one of two Knights, but that's all I can remember other than I win this one.

Game 2: I lose in several turns, Maze of Ith helping him along the way.

Game 3: I win, but I don't remember many details other than it seems goyf was the main threat.

4-1


RD 6: Leonard with Merfolk

Game 1: I get multiple goyfs and deal with true names via a timely Deluge.

Game 2: I deal with a lord with a Disfigure, a manland with a Waste, and Null Rod for Vial, which he had a double vial draw. He gets down 3 TNN in this game, 2 of which I deal with via Golgari Charm, the last I used a Deluge. Finish it off with 2 goyfs again.

I'm 3rd seed with 15 points, into the Top 8.



Semi's against Thomas (Admiral Arzar here on the Source), he's on Sylvan Plug, but with Goyfs. Turns out, its better. No kidding...

Game 1: He wins, but I don't remember much other than I believe a billion Zeniths into a billion Goyfs.

Game 2: I wasn't sure what he was on, as it was a strange hand and I saw very little besides a choke and GSZ and Goyf, and I think a Mox Diamond. I played around Choke here and in game 3 with 3 basics fetched early, not popping fetches and using DRS for Blue often. I get goyfs going, he doesn't draw lands and I think I wastelanded also. I answer his goyfs and Sylvan Library and win.

Game 3: Goyfs, played around Choke some more. Don't remember much, just that it was good games and a lot of fun. Thanks!

Semi's: Tyler, Miracles

He played 3 Jace, no Entreats, and Mentor, although I'm unsure how many of them, but it was a really strong list, and he played well.

G1: He resolves a turn 4 Jace. This is unexpected as I have a full grip and didn't play aggressively, gave no information that I didn't have a counter or anything, so I suspected immediately that he played 3 total, but alas, it was too good. I never got rid of it and he locked the board up with CounterTop and a couple of StP, 1 Counterspell, and 2(?) Snapcasters later I scoop as the writing is on the wall and I wanted to not get too downhearted by the situation. Not getting tilted is important.

G2: I win by discard and threats followed by an abrupt decay and a FoW on a Jace.

G3: I turn 1 DRS, counter his turn 1 Top, turn 2 I Shardless into Surgical and grab the top. He gets Jace, I can't deal with it right away and it punishes me by setting up an Entreat that I couldn't combat in a timely manner.

That was it, I don't necessarily remember how I boarded, but I'll leave you with the list.

4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Strix
1 Clique
4 Shardless

3 Decay
l2 TSeize
2 Hymn
4 FoW
2 Liliana
1 Deluge
1 Library
3 Vision
4 BS
1 Pulse

4 Delta
4 Verdant
1 Misty
3 Wasteland
1 CTP
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Trop

SB:
2 Surgical
1 Jace
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Deluge
1 Decay
1 TSeize
1 Charm
1 Library
1 Rod
1 Disfigure
1 Needle
1 Cage
1 Spellbomb
1 NoSB

The only thing I would like to change is NoSB being either another Charm or a first Engineered Plague. I'm leaning towards Plague in my local meta, but in a larger one maybe a second Charm is good, I really loved it all day.

-ABC

[MorphBerlin]

I would 100% of the time force top there, games go long and it is their best card vs this deck. Them without top makes your discard better and some decks dont even play angels anymore.

Sorry but this is just a losing play with this Hand, you are left with nothing after the force.

@Bee you board Surgicals against Miracles? I don't know about that. What do you take out for it and what cards do you aim for? StP? Terminus?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, it's better than some of the things I can play, and I do it only on the play. It's so if I Thoughtseize and hit a top, counterbalance, or Terminus, I can get extra value. Also, it's good against Snapcaster. Doing so has been good in the past. I'm not saying it's correct, but it has paid off on multiple occasions. Maybe as I get better with this deck, it'll be different.

[btm10]

I've been learning more and more that using your removal correctly is probably the reason some people are having problems with not having enough of it. Do what you want, but I feel like more reps will help you learn how the deck truly wants to be played.


I have no idea what you're getting at here. How the deck truly wants to be played? If your meta is skewed toward creature decks, why wouldn't you opt for more removal, Visions, and Planeswalkers over discard?

[ironclad8690]

You know, I have never brought in Surgical against Miracles, and every Miracles player I know says it is garbage, but I have never seen a Miracles player win after a Surgical resolves (really only 3-4 games total, but still worth noting).

It has made me question my evaluation of the card in the matchup.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I have no idea what you're getting at here. How the deck truly wants to be played? If your meta is skewed toward creature decks, why wouldn't you opt for more removal, Visions, and Planeswalkers over discard?
My meta, sure, but Denver's meta has quite a bit of combo.

I'm sure you didn't mean to come across as condescending.

[Whit3boy316]

Dumb question but has anyone ever thought about cutting lilly? Sometimes i feel like im hurting myself more with the discard aspect than i am my opponant....keep in my im i huge lily fan modern jund player) just voicing some thoughts. Ive also thought about moving jace due to so many creatures

[James_Nguyen]

Sorry but this is just a losing play with this Hand, you are left with nothing after the force.



So you think you are gonna beat a first turn top with this hand? Do you think you can beat first turn top in the long game? Im interested in why you think this is a losing play?

[MorphBerlin]

So you think you are gonna beat a first turn top with this hand? Do you think you can beat first turn top in the long game? Im interested in why you think this is a losing play?

They play 100 cantrips, how difficult will it be to just find another top? If they play a turn 2 top here how do you estimate your chances of winning?
I value Force+BS higher than a top that's basically the short reason. Because the Wasteland is close to dead, the Brainstorm will virtually be +1 which makes this almost a 3 for 1 on yourself. You are at the mercy of your topdecks for the next couple of turns. I have to assume my DRS will be handled turn 2 or 3. Then I will have 3 Lands and a Decay against a Miracles opponent with 5 Cards in Hand. Doesn't sound like a winning position.

[James_Nguyen]

They play 100 cantrips, how difficult will it be to just find another top? If they play a turn 2 top here how do you estimate your chances of winning?
I value Force+BS higher than a top that's basically the short reason. Because the Wasteland is close to dead, the Brainstorm will virtually be +1 which makes this almost a 3 for 1 on yourself. You are at the mercy of your topdecks for the next couple of turns. I have to assume my DRS will be handled turn 2 or 3. Then I will have 3 Lands and a Decay against a Miracles opponent with 5 Cards in Hand. Doesn't sound like a winning position.

Games where they have top and when they dont have top are like night and day. Its easy mode when they dont have top so im gonna take my chances and not play around the second top because i believe we are a huge dog when they have top. Its like about an 8% chance that they have two in there opening hand so i like my odds that forcing top will keep them off it for a while.

[James_Nguyen]

and if they have say 50 cards in their deck and 3 tops left, they are still only about 22% to find a top when they cast the first ponder/brainstorm so its actually harder then you think to find the second top.

[MorphBerlin]

Games where they have top and when they dont have top are like night and day. Its easy mode when they dont have top so im gonna take my chances and not play around the second top because i believe we are a huge dog when they have top. Its like about an 8% chance that they have two in there opening hand so i like my odds that forcing top will keep them off it for a while.

Well as I said, they have 4 Ponders and 4 Brainstroms to find the 2nd Top too, so it is definitely more then 8% to find it on Turn 2 or 3. What about the 30-40% they have a force and just force back? 4 of their cards plus top against DRS, Decay, 2 land seems bad too. What if they have a Jace they happily slam on T4 now? It is just so much that can go wrong here.

[James_Nguyen]

Well as I said, they have 4 Ponders and 4 Brainstroms to find the 2nd Top too, so it is definitely more then 8% to find it on Turn 2 or 3. What about the 30-40% they have a force and just force back? 4 of their cards plus top against DRS, Decay, 2 land seems bad too. What if they have a Jace they happily slam on T4 now? It is just so much that can go wrong here.

Its 8% chance they have two in their opening hand. 22% they find a second top after they cast their first brainstorm or ponder on turn 2. If they have force + blue card, they are just going to force back when they cast their jace so saving your force doesnt actually get you ahead.

[Ephemeron]

Dumb question but has anyone ever thought about cutting lilly? Sometimes i feel like im hurting myself more with the discard aspect than i am my opponant....keep in my im i huge lily fan modern jund player) just voicing some thoughts. Ive also thought about moving jace due to so many creatures

It's not a stupid question, Lili is kinda underwhelming against the two most popular fair blue decks right now outside of Shardless, Grixis Delver and Miracles. The best advice I can offer is just to remember that you don't have to tick her up every turn just for the sake of doing so. Especially against Miracles if they have top out, it's too easy for them to intentionally draw into crap to discard to Lili while floating the good cards, so don't trade something good like an Abrupt Decay or a FoW you can hardcast just because you want to get to the ultimate ASAP.

I wouldn't cut it entirely though, it's still a house against non-pyromancer delver because they have so few threats overall and it's the best thing you can ramp into against combo (non-reanimator combo anyways).

[James_Nguyen]

Dumb question but has anyone ever thought about cutting lilly? Sometimes i feel like im hurting myself more with the discard aspect than i am my opponant....keep in my im i huge lily fan modern jund player) just voicing some thoughts. Ive also thought about moving jace due to so many creatures

I am down to one mb and the only reason i still have one (i hate the card) is that i think its the best follow up to t2 hymn vs storm. it gives you a fighting chance to beat them game one and it marginally fine in other spots such as vs Dnt and true name

[btm10]

Its 8% chance they have two in their opening hand. 22% they find a second top after they cast their first brainstorm or ponder on turn 2. If they have force + blue card, they are just going to force back when they cast their jace so saving your force doesnt actually get you ahead.

Since I agree with this if you have access to some sort of proactive plan on turn 2, I calculated the probabilities of that happening.

If you Force, you can't Brainstorm (obviously), so you're looking at 11 'good' topdecks (4 Agent, 4 Goyf, assuming 3 Hymn), and 11 topdecks that aren't great but don't particularly punish the Force (assuming 3 Deathrite remaining, 3 Strix, 3 Brainstorm, 2 Liliana) you aren't punished ~41% of the time, and ~20% of the time you're rewarded with Goyf, Hymn, or Shardless Agent (you're only about 5% to find exactly one of the three remaining Brainstorms, so the impact on the total probability of finding Goyf or Hymn is only 1-2%). Without Forcing, you get three extra looks at turn 2 Hymn or Goyf via Brainstorm (for simplicity's sake I'm assuming that Force, Strix and the card it draws are exactly offset in value by the them having Top in play, though this is probably slightly in your favor on balance), meaning that you're a little better than 45% to hit your two best proactive spells in this position after having had a 20% chance to find comparably good business off of your initial draw. While you've persuaded me that it's sometimes right to Force the Top, I don't think it's a good plan in that situation because you end up making it both more important and less likely to find relevant business when you untap. The risk of wasting your mana advantage on turn 2 is simply too high to throw the Brainstorm away.

EDIT: I didn't see the comments re:cutting Liliana earlier. I think it's a totally reasonable plan. I'll try cutting mine for some combination of Ponder, Dismember, Dimir Charm, Jace, Thoughtseize, and Hymn.

[James_Nguyen]

@btm10 so I'm I interperting ur math correctly, u are punished 40% of the time of u force there? 20% good draw, 40% push and 40% bad draw? I'm not saying I am correct nor others are wrong, I just think it's a common situation that occurs and I would like more input.

[btm10]

@btm10 so I'm I interperting ur math correctly, u are punished 40% of the time of u force there? 20% good draw, 40% push and 40% bad draw? I'm not saying I am correct nor others are wrong, I just think it's a common situation that occurs and I would like more input.

Sorry I wasn't clear earlier, that's what happens when you do these things at work.

You're 20.7% to topdeck Goyf, Agent, or Hymn, and another 26.4% to hit Strix, Brainstorm, Deathrite, or Liliana (24.5% with one fewer of any of those, 22.6% with two fewer). The nice thing is that the probabilities are additive in this situation, so you're 47.1% to topdeck something good or a push, and get punished 52.9% of the time for Forcing there. Conversely, you're ~65% to hit at least one castable business spell (from the 'good' category as defined above) if you let them resolve Top.

[TheExtraMile]

I'm going to a duel-for-duals event this Saturday. I know the meta is going to be predominantly creature-based. Lots of delver, eldrazi, and death and taxes.

What sideboard cards have been successful for you guys in matchups like these? I'm running a standard list with 4 decay, 1 pulse, 1 deluge main.

My current board:
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
7 Undecided

TL:DR - Fill those 7 spots to beat delver, eldrazi, DnT

Thanks all!

[btm10]

I'm going to a duel-for-duals event this Saturday. I know the meta is going to be predominantly creature-based. Lots of delver, eldrazi, and death and taxes.

What sideboard cards have been successful for you guys in matchups like these? I'm running a standard list with 4 decay, 1 pulse, 1 deluge main.

My current board:
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
7 Undecided

TL:DR - Fill those 7 spots to beat delver, eldrazi, DnT

Thanks all!

What does your maindeck look like?

[James718]

Thoughts on using Ashiok in this deck?

[TheExtraMile]

What does your maindeck look like?

Thanks for the quick reply!

Maindeck:

Creatures (15)
4 Goyf
4 Shardless
4 Deathrite
3 Strix

Spells (23)
4 Ancestral
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Decay
3 Hymn
1 Pulse
1 Deluge
2 Liliana

Lands (22)
4 Delta
4 Verdant
1 Misty
3 Usea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Waste

And the sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
7 Undecided

A lot of the decisions I made with this maindeck (cut Jace and Clique, up to 3 strix, up to 3 basics) are in anticipation of the aggro-disruption meta I described earlier. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

[Whit3boy316]

Thanks for the quick reply!

Maindeck:

Creatures (15)
4 Goyf
4 Shardless
4 Deathrite
3 Strix

Spells (23)
4 Ancestral
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Decay
3 Hymn
1 Pulse
1 Deluge
2 Liliana

Lands (22)
4 Delta
4 Verdant
1 Misty
3 Usea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Waste

And the sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
7 Undecided

A lot of the decisions I made with this maindeck (cut Jace and Clique, up to 3 strix, up to 3 basics) are in anticipation of the aggro-disruption meta I described earlier. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

If you have my luck, hymn will hurt you with creature based meta

[MorphBerlin]

And the sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
7 Undecided

A lot of the decisions I made with this maindeck (cut Jace and Clique, up to 3 strix, up to 3 basics) are in anticipation of the aggro-disruption meta I described earlier. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

I am a big fan of the third Basic to hedge against Wasteland decks. But I would definitely play an Island over the 2nd Swamp. you have 5 BB spells but 15 spells that require U.
For the Sideboard You can Play one permant -1/-1 effect instead of 3 sweepers (NoSB agaisnt Grixis delver/DNT , Plaque for DNT), for the 7 felx slots I would go with 3 Disfigure/Dismember (probably a 2-1 Split) Disfigure is better against Delver/DNT, while Dismember is for Eldrazi.
You should think about something against Mirran Crusader, I like my DnT MU as long as they don't have this card out. It is just a Nightmare and can only be dealt with by Deluge and Lili sometimes. I can only yhink of complete disregard now but maybe somebody else has a better idea.
Jitte is allways good against creatures.

[btm10]

Thanks for the quick reply!

Maindeck:

Creatures (15)
4 Goyf
4 Shardless
4 Deathrite
3 Strix

Spells (23)
4 Ancestral
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Decay
3 Hymn
1 Pulse
1 Deluge
2 Liliana

Lands (22)
4 Delta
4 Verdant
1 Misty
3 Usea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Waste

And the sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
7 Undecided

A lot of the decisions I made with this maindeck (cut Jace and Clique, up to 3 strix, up to 3 basics) are in anticipation of the aggro-disruption meta I described earlier. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

In those slots, I'd run:

2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I also like a permanent -1/-1 effect, and thiink Engineered Plague gives you the best cost/effect tradeoff. Remember that Young Pyromancer, Insectile Aberration, and Delver of Secrets are all Humans. I'm not in love with basic Island.

[James_Nguyen]

I think the best cards vs those three decks are baleful strix so I would max out on those

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Went 2-1 tonight at Thursday Night Magic losing again to miracles, 2-1. I'm going to build a list that's best against Miracles and work backwards. I think I will start with a Bitterblossom in the board, to begin with. Then, Maybe 2 Jace in the 75, and only 1x Liliana. Finally, I'm curious of your opinions on Hymn vs. Thoughtseize against them. Any thoughts on the subject?

[MorphBerlin]

Went 2-1 tonight at Thursday Night Magic losing again to miracles, 2-1. I'm going to build a list that's best against Miracles and work backwards. I think I will start with a Bitterblossom in the board, to begin with. Then, Maybe 2 Jace in the 75, and only 1x Liliana. Finally, I'm curious of your opinions on Hymn vs. Thoughtseize against them. Any thoughts on the subject?

I don't feel Bitterblossom is really necessary, even though I never testet it. Garruk does the same job but is more versatile don't you think? Sure its 2 vs 4cmc but it is also Wear//Tear proof.

Hymn and Thoughtseize are both good in my experience, I would give the edge to Hymn though but TS is better in the Combo MU.

Have you guys seen the brainstorm show's list and listened to them? They claim that their list is really suited versus Miracles.

[btm10]

Have you guys seen the brainstorm show's list and listened to them? They claim that their list is really suited versus Miracles.

I looked at the list yesterday and it seems reasonable (it's also not that far off of my list, so there's that). I agree with them on Jace and Sylvan Library, I could go either way on Liliana, and definitely see the logic behind some of the less conventional choices. The MD Deluge in particular has been only ok for me since it's at its best against D&T and Elves and those matchups are pretty rough eeven with Deluge, and I'm rarely upset to draw Maelstrom Pulse. I've tried MD Dismember a few times recently and have liked it, so it's quite possible that moving both Deluges to the board is correct. It's not clear what the optimal replacement is, but Pulse is definitely a great place to start. The only things I think are distictly suboptimal are the 4 Leyline of the Void and the lack of Wastelands, and those sort of go hand-in-hand and reflect a pretty clear desire to be optimized against Miracles, Delver, Eldrazi, the mirror, and Infect while being softer to combo and Lands. With so many "real" lands 21 is probably fine, though the singleton Wasteland might not be as good as singleton Ponder, which would the cherry on top of the streamlining sundae and makes it easier to keep a sorcery in the graveyard for Tarmogoyf in the early game, which can be especially important against Grixis and Eldrazi.

I'll listen to the podcast tonight sometime.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Maybe on Garruk, but I don't love him. I do like the tribal and enchantment buff Bitterblossom gives goyf when it dies, and I think I want to be able to cascade into it. Is there a link to the list and/or podcast?

[btm10]

Maybe on Garruk, but I don't love him. I do like the tribal and enchantment buff Bitterblossom gives goyf when it dies, and I think I want to be able to cascade into it. Is there a link to the list and/or podcast?

Link (http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/podcasts/episode-021-shardless-bug-deck-tech/)

Garruk has been amazing whenever I've cast him. Getting around Decay in the BGx mirror is no joke, and he's also good to great against Eldrazi.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

But the slot I want to put Bitterblossom in is for the Miracles matchup. How is Garruk against miracles?

[btm10]

But the slot I want to put Bitterblossom in is for the Miracles matchup. How is Garruk against miracles?

Better than either Jace or Liliana.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Ok, I will get 1x for my board. Do you guys like clique or tombstalker more against miracles?

[minyafriend]

I haven't lost a game against miracles that I stuck garruk. Worst comes to worse it eats a councils judgment allowing some other permanent to mess with them.

I don't really like ton stalker in shard less. I like my graveyard packed for death rites and tarmogoyfs although the allure of a 5/5 flyer for cheap is nice. But in the context of miracles Clique seems like a better upside considering you can clique in response to miracle triggers and smooth your hand and etc.

[Lormador]

Garruk handles almost anything Miracles can dish out except for Clique attack, Council's Judgment, or a Mentor/Entreat. He handily stomps their durdle plan.

Yesterday I had a Garruk against Counterbalance, Top, Jace, Blood Moon and won with the wolf tokens.

[btm10]

Ok, I will get 1x for my board. Do you guys like clique or tombstalker more against miracles?

Clique is better against Miracles, Tombstalker is better in creature matchups.


I haven't lost a game against miracles that I stuck garruk. Worst comes to worse it eats a councils judgment allowing some other permanent to mess with them.

I don't really like ton stalker in shard less. I like my graveyard packed for death rites and tarmogoyfs although the allure of a 5/5 flyer for cheap is nice. But in the context of miracles Clique seems like a better upside considering you can clique in response to miracle triggers and smooth your hand and etc.

I think Tombstalker is better than the 3rd or 4th Strix (I think you want a 3rd Strix before a second Stalker, though). The first Delve spell you cast is mostly free in terms of Goyf and Deathrite food, and having a flying body that gets around Bolt and Decay is huge against Delver and the mirror. Rather than simply trading for a spell or even a Delver, he completely shuts down Flying combat or eats Delver (or Stormchaser) AND a Bolt.

[Whit3boy316]

Played in a 9 man tourney. Went 2-1 (with bye)
Field:
3 infect
D&t
Abzan stoneblade
Dredge (my loss, couldnt find my 2 grafdiggers)
Burn (my win, game 3 found 3 deathrites, slowly gainrd life)
Brew (janky r/u flyers)

Deck is pretty much the norm but i moved the 3 hymns to the board for 3 disfigure and a dismember since there is so much creatures.

Usually there is another infect, miracles, burn, r/u delver and sometimes dredge player.

Is this meta good for shardless? Or is another deck (interested in abzan deathblade, grixis/rug delver, loam, sneak and show) better for this field?

[btm10]

Delver of some sort is probably better for that meta. Burn and D&T are uphill for Shardless and Delver, but they tend to be harder for Shardless.

[minyafriend]

Played in a 9 man tourney. Went 2-1 (with bye)
Field:
3 infect
D&t
Abzan stoneblade
Dredge (my loss, couldnt find my 2 grafdiggers)
Burn (my win, game 3 found 3 deathrites, slowly gainrd life)
Brew (janky r/u flyers)

Deck is pretty much the norm but i moved the 3 hymns to the board for 3 disfigure and a dismember since there is so much creatures.

Usually there is another infect, miracles, burn, r/u delver and sometimes dredge player.

Is this meta good for shardless? Or is another deck (interested in abzan deathblade, grixis/rug delver, loam, sneak and show) better for this field?

Wouldn't Abzan death blade just be some form of maverick?

[Whit3boy316]

Wouldn't Abzan death blade just be some form of maverick?

Ehh similiar...
Bobs
Stoneforge w/ the standard equipts
Lingering souls
Goyf
Swords to plowshares
Abrupts
Lili

[minyafriend]

Ehh similiar...
Bobs
Stoneforge w/ the standard equipts
Lingering souls
Goyf
Swords to plowshares
Abrupts
Lili

Siege rhino?

[NiCHolAs]

Hey guys I'm new to legacy as well as the shardless bug. I want to ask about which version is the best that you guys have ever seen. Please tell me about that cause I will attend a small tournament in a few weeks. Thanks in advance.

[btm10]

At risk of coming across as even more arrogant than I ordinarily do, I'm increasingly convinced that my list is pretty close to optimal for an open metagame. I'm deliberately sacrificing some points against D&T and Elves to shore up Eldrazi, 4c Loam, the mirror, Delver, combo, and Miracles while having a robust sideboarding plan against Lands.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest


Sideboard

2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dismember
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I view the flex slots as:

Maindeck:

1 Maelstrom Pulse --> 1 Dismember, Diabolic Edict, Hymn to Tourach, or Toxic Deluge
1 Wasteland --> 1 Creeping Tar Pit or 1 Ponder
1 Tombstalker --> 1 Baleful Strix

Sideboard
1 Leyline of the Void --> 1 Engineered Plague
1 Thoughtseize --> 1 Disfigure or 1 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach --> 1 Duress

[minyafriend]

Do y'all think the overall meta is too wasteland heavy to just run 3 sources of green mana? 1 trop 1 bayou and 1 forest? I know for strix and hymn heavy versions it's important to get your duals first but in the match ups that you're worried about getting wasted aren't you fetching conservatively anyways? Just been seeing a lot of lists running 2 ish bayou/trop trying to get a little perspective. Even though fetching conservatively kinda screws us anyways I think it's safer than just losing to wastelands and blood moons when we are usually just better in the long game anyways. What do y'all think. I also don't really want to buy duals right now and just have the set of 4 underground and 1 of each bayou and trop haha.

[minyafriend]

Maindeck:

1 Maelstrom Pulse --> 1 Dismember, Diabolic Edict, Hymn to Tourach, or Toxic Deluge
1 Wasteland --> 1 Creeping Tar Pit or 1 Ponder
1 Tombstalker --> 1 Baleful Strix

Sideboard
1 Leyline of the Void --> 1 Engineered Plague
1 Thoughtseize --> 1 Disfigure or 1 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach --> 1 Duress

Do you tend to like dismember more than murderous cut since you're running the tomb stalker?

[minyafriend]

Sideboard

2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dismember
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Also, against d+t would you bring in both null rod and jitte or one or the other

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Both. You can choose your game plan based on what you draw when.

[Whit3boy316]

Siege rhino?

No....its mainly smaller crestures....search jj garlocks list. If you cant find it i can send it

[NiCHolAs]

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Baleful Strix
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Shardless Agent
1 Swamp
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

hey guys this is my version. Is this okay? And one more question 2 pit+2 underground sea or 1 pit+3 underground sea? Thanks in advance.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That ponder in your list feels close to warmed refuse, btm. I tried it out and it's around 1 trillion percent better as a Sylvan Library. Also, the Tombstalker just felt like win-more, and could just be a Clique. The second maelstrom pulse is worse than Deluge #1 in the main. Finally, 4x Wasteland has been plain bad as well. You are playing a virtual 17 lands with 4 wasteland, 3 is the most I've ever been happy with.

[btm10]

That ponder in your list feels close to warmed refuse, btm. I tried it out and it's around 1 trillion percent better as a Sylvan Library. Also, the Tombstalker just felt like win-more, and could just be a Clique. The second maelstrom pulse is worse than Deluge #1 in the main. Finally, 4x Wasteland has been plain bad as well. You are playing a virtual 17 lands with 4 wasteland, 3 is the most I've ever been happy with.

I absolutely despise MD Sylvan Library, have been loving Ponder, and I haven't missed a colored source at all. Cascading into Sylvan Library is only good in the mirror and against Miracles, while it's way too slow against anything else. Ponder both increases the deck's low blue count while finding you what you need the turn you cast it rather than making you wait. I've lost way too many games I should've won to Cascading into Sylvan Library rather than something that immediately impacts the board or something that immediately gives you access to extra looks. I can see wanting a 4th Strix over the Tombstalker, though wanting an MD Clique is beyond me, and Tombstalker not dying to Bolt or Decay and being bigger than most other creatures is just incredible in any matchup where the battlefield matters. This configuration is less forgiving of just sitting there and trying not to die, but I've found it to be much better at winning games than any other way of building the deck.

EDIT:


4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Baleful Strix
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Shardless Agent
1 Swamp
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

hey guys this is my version. Is this okay? And one more question 2 pit+2 underground sea or 1 pit+3 underground sea? Thanks in advance.

It seems fine. It's a very stock list. Singleton Tar Pit is fine, but running two opens you up way too much to slow starts that don't go anywhere.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@btm: So we can agree to disagree with the Library/Ponder slot. I've never wanted a 4th Strix, in fact I only play 2, you run 1 more creature than I do anyway. That said, I play a Clique main, and I love it. It pitches to force, doesn't shrink my goyf, gets rid of dead cards in my hand (vision/hymn, looking @ you), still flies, and does combat tricks. I can't think of a time where it would have been better as a 'Stalker. I actually replaced a 'Stalker with the clique because of some of these reasons. I dislike more than 3 Wasteland because of how terrible they are against Miracles. I understand you said open field, but Miracles are around ~15% +/- in any given meta, so being mindful of that is relevant. Also unaddressed is the Deluge vs. Pulse. I see 0 reasons for 2/0 vs. 1/1 split.

[NiCHolAs]

I absolutely despise MD Sylvan Library, have been loving Ponder, and I haven't missed a colored source at all. Cascading into Sylvan Library is only good in the mirror and against Miracles, while it's way too slow against anything else. Ponder both increases the deck's low blue count while finding you what you need the turn you cast it rather than making you wait. I've lost way too many games I should've won to Cascading into Sylvan Library rather than something that immediately impacts the board or something that immediately gives you access to extra looks. I can see wanting a 4th Strix over the Tombstalker, though wanting an MD Clique is beyond me, and Tombstalker not dying to Bolt or Decay and being bigger than most other creatures is just incredible in any matchup where the battlefield matters. This configuration is less forgiving of just sitting there and trying not to die, but I've found it to be much better at winning games than any other way of building the deck.

EDIT:



It seems fine. It's a very stock list. Singleton Tar Pit is fine, but running two opens you up way too much to slow starts that don't go anywhere.

Thanks. I'm quite new to shardless, so could you give me a new but "mature" version?

[btm10]

@btm: So we can agree to disagree with the Library/Ponder slot. I've never wanted a 4th Strix, in fact I only play 2, you run 1 more creature than I do anyway. That said, I play a Clique main, and I love it. It pitches to force, doesn't shrink my goyf, gets rid of dead cards in my hand (vision/hymn, looking @ you), still flies, and does combat tricks. I can't think of a time where it would have been better as a 'Stalker. I actually replaced a 'Stalker with the clique because of some of these reasons. I dislike more than 3 Wasteland because of how terrible they are against Miracles. I understand you said open field, but Miracles are around ~15% +/- in any given meta, so being mindful of that is relevant. Also unaddressed is the Deluge vs. Pulse. I see 0 reasons for 2/0 vs. 1/1 split.

Clique just doesn't have enough body for the cost, Flash and Flying or not, in my experience. Dying to Delver's removal is a huge cost since they'll often be able to Bolt/Decay it and keep attacking in the air. Wasteland is great against Miracles, especially as they've gone down on total lands. You don't want to mana screw them with Wasteland (though you'll get plenty of opportunities to keep them tight), but as I've said before, Wastelanding fetchlands is an excellent way to make Top worse by forcing them to shuffle cards away rather than float them. It's not Needle or Null Rod, but it is a very strong option, especially game 1. Aside from that, Wasteland is absolutely critical to beating Lands.


Thanks. I'm quite new to shardless, so could you give me a new but "mature" version?

My current list is on this page.

[James_Nguyen]

At risk of coming across as even more arrogant than I ordinarily do, I'm increasingly convinced that my list is pretty close to optimal for an open metagame. I'm deliberately sacrificing some points against D&T and Elves to shore up Eldrazi, 4c Loam, the mirror, Delver, combo, and Miracles while having a robust sideboarding plan against Lands.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest


Sideboard

2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dismember
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I view the flex slots as:

Maindeck:

1 Maelstrom Pulse --> 1 Dismember, Diabolic Edict, Hymn to Tourach, or Toxic Deluge
1 Wasteland --> 1 Creeping Tar Pit or 1 Ponder
1 Tombstalker --> 1 Baleful Strix

Sideboard
1 Leyline of the Void --> 1 Engineered Plague
1 Thoughtseize --> 1 Disfigure or 1 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach --> 1 Duress

Im surprised that you arent playing any jace tms.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm not. Jace isn't at his very best here. I only play 1, and he's often only good when you are ahead.

[James_Nguyen]

Really? I think jace is one of the reasons i play this decks. U can accelerate it out and protect it well.

[Whitefaces]

I dropped Jace too, but only because any decks with access to it are bringing in Pyroblasts against Shardless now.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

He can set up Shardless, he bounces things, he's not terrible, just not my style, maybe. It just seems like Jace hasn't been excellent against Miracles, and they use it better, it's good to be able to needle it without giving yourself dead draws. In other matchups it's a liability when you need to be a bg list instead of a blue one. I dunno, I can see how he is useful, I've just so far been underwhelmed I suppose.

[btm10]

I dropped Jace too, but only because any decks with access to it are bringing in Pyroblasts against Shardless now.

This is half of the reason. The other half is that I was boarding Jace out against everything that wasn't Miracles or Shardless anyway.

[MorphBerlin]

He can set up Shardless, he bounces things, he's not terrible, just not my style, maybe. It just seems like Jace hasn't been excellent against Miracles, and they use it better, it's good to be able to needle it without giving yourself dead draws. In other matchups it's a liability when you need to be a bg list instead of a blue one. I dunno, I can see how he is useful, I've just so far been underwhelmed I suppose.

If Jace hasn't been good for you against Miracles you are probably playing it wrong. It has won me many games against them.

[Ephemeron]

If Jace hasn't been good for you against Miracles you are probably playing it wrong. It has won me many games against them.

I agree with you that what Jace is capable of doing is great against Miracles in the abstract, but I can see where Secretly.A.Bee is coming from. Game 1 he's a stone cold killer against them, but if the trend in Miracles is to load up post-board with REB effects and Snapcasters, Jace doesn't end up doing much in those games, which has kinda been my experience as well.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Right, and I do play one in my main, it's just only good for me if I've already assumed the control role in a matchup. I'm certain that most of my decisions with Jace are correct, he's just not where I want to be against most tier 1 lists atm.

[Vandalize]

Jace isn't as good as Liliana in this deck, but it's still the best Planeswalker ever printed. No reason not to run at least 1 maindeck. If it can stick for a while, the card advantage it generates is game winning and he's also a win-condition on his own (this is Liliana's only flaw).

I'm taking Shardless BUG to a local tomorrow, I guess this is the list I'm using:

Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

Creatures [15]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

Spells [23]
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard [15]
2 Disfigure
1 Murderous Cut
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Chill

Chill and Engineered Explosives have been working REALLY well. They have so many applications! My only flex slots in the sideboard are the Murderous Cut and Hymn to Tourach. Maybe I can swap them for Life from the Loam and another Maelstrom Pulse. I guess my list is a little soft against Sneak and Show, but I guess that's fine, I'm prepared to see more midrange decks, Eldrazi and Miracles. What do you guys think?

[Whitefaces]

Jace isn't as good as Liliana in this deck, but it's still the best Planeswalker ever printed. No reason not to run at least 1 maindeck. If it can stick for a while, the card advantage it generates is game winning and he's also a win-condition on his own (this is Liliana's only flaw).

That's not a good enough reason to run a Jace. I'm not saying playing Jace is wrong, clearly it's still very powerful and insane in the deck, but running it just because of that is flawed. As others have mentioned, Legacy has become hostile to him. There are Pyroblasts everywhere that people are bringing in vs us, as well as army-in-a-can creatures like Mentor and Young Pyromancer that get around his -1, tough to answer threats like TNN and with Grixis being played a huge amount more than BUG when it comes to Delver you'll be facing lots of Lightning Bolts too.



Sideboard [15]
2 Disfigure
1 Murderous Cut
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Chill

Chill and Engineered Explosives have been working REALLY well. They have so many applications! My only flex slots in the sideboard are the Murderous Cut and Hymn to Tourach. Maybe I can swap them for Life from the Loam and another Maelstrom Pulse. I guess my list is a little soft against Sneak and Show, but I guess that's fine, I'm prepared to see more midrange decks, Eldrazi and Miracles. What do you guys think?

It's worked for some people, but reactive cards like Flusterstorm and Invasive Surgery aren't good in Shardless IMO. You should be building to maximise your cascades. Tapping out for Agent vs combo (this is a tapout deck after all) and hitting one of these will feel terrible and probably lose you the game. EE is also a huge nonbo with Agent.

Chill seems very narrow. It's probably an annoyance for some bolts decks, but outside of Burn I don't see it doing much.

[btm10]

If you're really set on a non-Force counter in Shardless, I think Dimir Charm is where you want to be . It's not a dead Cascade against decks where you aren't interested in the counter (even against Eldrazi it gets Mimics, small Endless Ones, and counters All is Dust) and it hits most the the stuff you'd typically want to counter with Invasive Surgery or Flusterstorm.

I also think that Crucible of Worlds is just better in Shardless than Life from the Loam. It doesn't suck your mana or your draw step every turn, it's much more powerful with Sylvan Library and Jace, and it's only marginally less good with Liliana.

[Kyuuri117]

Hey, new to the site and somewhat new to shardless. I haven't read the backpages of the thread, so I apologize if this has been answered (and it's very likely been answered), but what is the game plan vs. Grixis / RUG Delver? I took Shardless to SCG Worcester as my first big tournament with the deck and took 18th last weekend, which I am very happy with, but my 4 losses in the tournament were to two Grixis Delver decks, and two RUG Delver decks... and only one of those matches felt even remotely close. My last match against RUG, I did fine (had to mulligan to 3 game 3... obviously lost), but I felt like I had learned *something*, as it was actually a match the first two games, but if there are any general tips / strategies when playing against delver decks, I would really love to learn them.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Become a BG deck and board out Forces, first and foremost. Race them sooner rather than later if you can't stop their pressure, but otherwise try and make the game go long, as yhats this deck's playground when its the control list. Always do your best to play around Daze, pierce and Stifle. Save Brainstorms to make their discard worse. This is how I play against it.

[Whitefaces]

Become a BG deck and board out Forces, first and foremost. Race them sooner rather than later if you can't stop their pressure, but otherwise try and make the game go long, as yhats this deck's playground when its the control list. Always do your best to play around Daze, pierce and Stifle. Save Brainstorms to make their discard worse. This is how I play against it.

I couldn't disagree with this more, do not side board out Forces vs RUG Delver at least, same for Grixis if they're running Stifle and even then I still keep them in if they're not.

We lose to Delver decks by getting behind on tempo, not card advantage. Force is vital to beating Stifle decks, just play smart and don't play them into a Daze.

[ironclad8690]

i agree with Dissection here. You need more outs to Young Pyro and Angler in your deck, and Delvers often cut countermagic vs us. Also answering a delver turn 1 otd is huge if you have no removal/a slower hand.

In fact, i think this deck is the best equipped to keep FOW in a lot of matchups. Because of our card advantage, it doesnt really hurt us as much as say stoneblade.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, go with what he says, but I get to test against grixis and 4c Delver often, and I don't lose very much. Try both in testing and see what works best for you.

[Kyuuri117]

Alright, thanks for the replies! I'll get some testing in keeping in the forces. I tried going basically BG with brainstorm in the tournament post sideboard and ended up going 1/5 against delver so I guess trying something else couldn't possibly hurt.

[btm10]

Alright, thanks for the replies! I'll get some testing in keeping in the forces. I tried going basically BG with brainstorm in the tournament post sideboard and ended up going 1/5 against delver so I guess trying something else couldn't possibly hurt.

Assuming you're Charles Prugh, I think that part of your problem is that your 75 is just not set up well against Delver in general. Thoughtseize is pretty bad in those matchups, you only have three Forces, Jace is very difficult to cast against Wasteland, Stifle, Daze, and Pierce, and the Meddling Mage sideboard plan leaves you light on removal against aggressive decks, especially aggressive decks that attack your mana, since Plow is your only piece of SB spot removal.

Tactically, you want to focus on clogging up the ground while cutting them off of flying attackers and Deathrite activations (in that order).

[Voley]

I'm looking into shardless and I have a question, why do people run singletons Dismember, Maelstrom Pulse, Toxic Deluge and some others? Like the chance to get it is abysmal, yet they still run them. Whats the point?

[halahel]

I'm looking into shardless and I have a question, why do people run singletons Dismember, Maelstrom Pulse, Toxic Deluge and some others? Like the chance to get it is abysmal, yet they still run them. Whats the point?

A typical Shardless deck runs four Brainstorms (along with 9 fetches), four Ancestral Visions, 2-3 Baleful Strix and 1-2 Jace. The chances of drawing into a singleton are not abysmal. This is also why the deck is so dangerous post-board.

[btm10]

I'm looking into shardless and I have a question, why do people run singletons Dismember, Maelstrom Pulse, Toxic Deluge and some others? Like the chance to get it is abysmal, yet they still run them. Whats the point?

Aside from cantrips, Vision, Sylvan Library, and Jace, Maelstrom Pulse is a pseudo-second copy of Dismember and Toxic Deluge; it's got some subtle differences and is sometimes better and sometimes worse than those cards, but don't think of them as 2-3 one-ofs, think of them as slots dedicated to catch-all removal that you tailor to your metagame.

[Whitefaces]

Hey guys,

Influenced by The Brainstorm Show podcast I've been running a Jitte in the maindeck for a little while now and it's been overperforming so I bumped the number up to two. The deck was struggling with Grixis Delver and Monastery Mentor a bit and Jitte is phenomenal vs both. It's been working almost as a proactive replacement for Toxic Deluge, I'd be interested to hear if anybody else has been trying it? The list below has been running pretty smoothly.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach

2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

SB:

2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Duress
1 Disfigure
1 Murderous Cut
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle

[btm10]

It's definitely worth a shot. I haven't tried it in the main, but the comparison to Deluge is apt. I'm concerned no maindeck answers to Jace, though.

[MorphBerlin]

I came across an interesting situation today maybe it is a nice "Whats the play?" for others too:

Postboard game against miracles:

Our board:

http://i.imgur.com/A7nsRRX.jpg

The 2 Needles are on Top and Jace, in Exile are 2 DRS+ the FOW, Lili just ulitmated form 7 counters

Theirs:

http://i.imgur.com/B7qlueL.jpg

The 2 last cards in their GY are STOP and Tarn, in Exile there is Ponder+W//T. They had 2 cards in hand for a while and I drew a lot of lands and just ticked up lili. So you can assume they are reactive or uncastable

How do you do the piles?

[btm10]

I came across an interesting situation today maybe it is a nice "Whats the play?" for others too:

Postboard game against miracles:

Our board:

http://i.imgur.com/A7nsRRX.jpg

The 2 Needles are on Top and Jace, in Exile are 2 DRS+ the FOW, Lili just ulitmated form 7 counters

Theirs:

http://i.imgur.com/B7qlueL.jpg

The 2 last cards in their GY are STOP and Tarn, in Exile there is Ponder+W//T. They had 2 cards in hand for a while and I drew a lot of lands and just ticked up lili. So you can assume they are reactive or uncastable

How do you do the piles?

I'm going to assume that this is precombat or they aren't floating mana.

Since Jace is Needled, I definitely want to keep him separate from Red mana, so that's where the piles start. Snapcaster goes with Volc so that a topdecked Wear/Tear doesn't immediately blow the game open. The next step is maximizing the odds that Sylvan Library resolves. With Volc+Snap split against Jace, I'd put the untapped Tundra in the Jace pile to shut down Counterspell. The rest sort of depends on how you sideboared. Assuming you have a couple of Wastelands still in your deck, I'd put the tapped Islands with Snap, and the tapped Tundra with Jace since your opponent is likely to take the Snap pile and I want to maximize damage from the ultimate. If you don't have Wastelands, I'd probably make sure I broke up my opponent's access to WW, so I'd be at least somewhat tempted to split the Tundras and basics.


So the overall piles are:

Pile 1:

Jace
Tundra (untapped)
Tundra (tapped)


Pile 2:
Snapcaster Mage
Volcanic Island (untapped)
2 Island

Then cast Sylvan Library.

[MorphBerlin]

Yeah this was the same pile I choose, maybe it was not so interesting after all. Just wanted to hear an unbiased opinion because I knew the cards in both hands.

All other options weren't as appealing, I was trying to find a good way yo save the lili but it wasn't worth it risking the wear/tear blow out.

I don't know if I boarded out wastelands this game, I was toying around with my boarding plans a bit.

[JBlaze]

Pile 1
Jace
Snapcaster
untapped tundra

Pile 2
Island
Island
volcanic
tapped tundra

[btm10]

Pile 1
Jace
Snapcaster
untapped tundra

Pile 2
Island
Island
volcanic
tapped tundra

What's your reasoning here?

[btm10]

Yeah this was the same pile I choose, maybe it was not so interesting after all. Just wanted to hear an unbiased opinion because I knew the cards in both hands.

All other options weren't as appealing, I was trying to find a good way yo save the lili but it wasn't worth it risking the wear/tear blow out.

I don't know if I boarded out wastelands this game, I was toying around with my boarding plans a bit.

No, I think it's interesting. Liliana splits are shockingly easy to screw up.

How did the game play out?

[MorphBerlin]

No, I think it's interesting. Liliana splits are shockingly easy to screw up.

How did the game play out?

The cards in hand of the Miracles player were S2P and REB so the unanswered Library + no topdecks from the other side just won the game.

So because I was bored and cant use cokatrice atm, I tested the MU but played both sides. So far it has been 10-10 preboard and 15-5 postboard for shardless. Obviously knowing both hands all time is bad for objective testing and I am not a good miracles player, but I was amazed by the postboard results. Assuming they are on the -CB/FOW +REBS/Snap/Wear Tear sb-plan I feel really good with this configuration. Might give up some %to eldrazi/delver/dnt maybe though.

[OlyForce]

Against Miracles, we're not trying to control the game, just bring the beats and some disruption to keep them from controlling us.

Null rod and Pithing needle are amazing at shutting down top and needle shuts down JTMS (and that's even ok leaving our own 1x JTMS in since it pitches to force and can be brainstormed away if they land theirs first and we needle it). I'm up to 2 pithing needles and 1 null rod in the board.

Needles are great against all sorts of stuff (stoneblade, walkers, elves actually too for Quirion and Wirewood, belcher), null rod is awesome against Storm and belcher.

I've also found room for a 3rd LotV in the 75 just for miracles. She wrecks them if you get it out before a mentor lands.

In the last Legacy event I played, in the one match I played against miracles, I was able to ult LotV twice (twice!) which really puts a squeeze on their resources.

I used to be running a 5-card white splash in the board for storm/combo decks (Scrubland, 3x Meddling Mage, 1x Ethersworn Canonist), but moved away from that because Eldrazi thorns and chalice seems to be checking combo pretty well. At least in my meta.

[OlyForce]

What are people's thoughts on Misdirection for the mirror?

In theory it seems really good, redirect your ancestral to me, and your decay onto YOUR DRS, not mine. It's card disadvantage like Force, so it's bad in that sense, but the two spells it's supposed to hit help swing CA back to us.

The forces come out and other hymns/LotV/strix comes in, so our blue count goes down.

In the end it just might be too narrow (i.e., it's only really good against the mirror). Its other applications seem fringe at best.

[btm10]

What are people's thoughts on Misdirection for the mirror?

In theory it seems really good, redirect your ancestral to me, and your decay onto YOUR DRS, not mine. It's card disadvantage like Force, so it's bad in that sense, but the two spells it's supposed to hit help swing CA back to us.

The forces come out and other hymns/LotV/strix comes in, so our blue count goes down.

In the end it just might be too narrow (i.e., it's only really good against the mirror). Its other applications seem fringe at best.

I don't think it makes the cut, even in the mirror. I'm way more concerned about the conditionality of Misdirection than I am about the card disadvantage. It's great in the mirror, but only if you have it at the right time. Like Notion Theif, I think the opportunity cost is higher than any benefit you'd gain, even though misdirecting a Hymn is a great feeling.

[Whitefaces]

I don't think it makes the cut, even in the mirror. I'm way more concerned about the conditionality of Misdirection than I am about the card disadvantage. It's great in the mirror, but only if you have it at the right time. Like Notion Theif, I think the opportunity cost is higher than any benefit you'd gain, even though misdirecting a Hymn is a great feeling.

Nailed it. It's great in theory, in practice it's different. All your blue cards are great in the mirror too.

[OlyForce]

I don't think it makes the cut, even in the mirror. I'm way more concerned about the conditionality of Misdirection than I am about the card disadvantage. It's great in the mirror, but only if you have it at the right time. Like Notion Theif, I think the opportunity cost is higher than any benefit you'd gain, even though misdirecting a Hymn is a great feeling.

btm10 and Dissection thanks for your input. You're probably right, and i'm just greedy haha. I love 'gotcha' cards and Misdirection was so juicy I just couldn't take it out. Thank you for guiding me back to the light.

I've always brought forces out for the mirror, the card advantage theory being the driving force behind what goes in/out of the SB. Is that consistent with your thinking?

[TheHeff]

I wanted to give a quick write-up of my weekly Legacy event (~20 ppl), I just moved so I was entering an unknown meta. I wanted to get your thoughts/feedback on my sideboard plan and also my MD choices. Here's the list I took:

4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Baleful Strix
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent

4x Ancestral Visions
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Force of Will
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge

2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
3x Wasteland

Sideboard:
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Round 1: Elves
Got a quick 0-2 here even though I was able to stall both games out much longer than they really should have gone. Wasn't able to find a Toxic Deluge to wipe the board in either game though. Wasteland did some serious work here keeping Gaea's Cradle down.
+In: 2x Disfigure, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Toxic Deluge, 1x Jitte
-Out: 2x Liliana, 1x Jace, 2x Hymn (would it have been better to cut Strix here instead, even though it could carry a Jitte and fly over defenders?)

Round 2: UB Reanimator
Yep, all the good matchups this week- another quick 0-2. Game 1 (OTP) I was able to strip the entomb out of his hand after he T1 Thoughtseized and took my Force, he eventually recovered after a Careful Study and got an Iona on the field (naming Black) and a Tidespout Tyrant. I was able to unsummon the Iona with Jace but couldn't find an answer for the Tidespout. Game 2 I mulled to 6 and saw: Leyline, Leyline, Hymn, Hymn, 2 Lands. Seems ok, right? Nope- he topdecks a Show & Tell T3 and jams it, getting an Inkwell Leviathan in play. Couldn't find an answer and got beat down for 3 turns.
+In: 4x Leyline, 2x Hymn, 2x Thoughtseize
-Out: 4x Abrupt Decay, 4x Ancestral Visions (This may not be the right way to SB- even though discard potentially "helps" them, I play the SB games mulling for Leyline and trying to get threats out of their hand so S&T is a blank)

Round 3: Eldrazi
Actually had a decent series of games here, G1 I was able to stabilize at 6 life with a Deathrite/Strix and dodge a topdecked Reality Smasher until I could stabilize further and take over with my Goyfs. Game 2 I mulled to 4 and got smashed relatively quickly. G3 Liliana did some heavy lifting and I was able to keep the board relatively clear and chip away with a Goyf. The only "lock" piece I saw in all three games was a Thorn G2 that only resulted in 1 mana being paid for an Ancestral Visions.
+In: 1x Toxic Deluge, 1x Dismember, 1x Jitte, 1x Hymn
-Out: 4x Abrupt Decay (Not a lot to board in here- Hymn isn't great but it can really punish them if they start slow or I get a key Wasteland or two down, which happened in these games).

After talking to a few people, it seems like the meta is fairly spread out, maybe a little more combo than you would expect and a little less Miracles/Shardless. Not great news for me taking Shardless, but I love playing the deck and have about 3 years experience with it, so I'll grit it out. I think for next week I'll move one Strix to the SB (2 Main, 1 Side), move a Hymn main (3 Main), make the 4th SB Hymn into another Thoughtseize (3 Side) or maybe a second Dismember (2 Side). Maybe even a Garruk Relentless but I've heard mixed results on him, anyone have any playtest experience with him? Any thoughts or advice appreciated!

[btm10]

Garruk is insane in any matchup where you can expect to cast him. At his worst he's a Bitterblossom but makes 2/2s and randomly kills a Snapcaster Mage. At his best he's an almost unbeatable trump in BGx pseudo-mirrors, against Miracles, and puts in solid work against D&T. He's worth bringing in against Eldrazi since the Deathtouch Wolves that Garruk, the Veil-Cursed makes are basically a free Strix every turn.

[minyafriend]

Garruk is insane in any matchup where you can expect to cast him. At his worst he's a Bitterblossom but makes 2/2s and randomly kills a Snapcaster Mage. At his best he's an almost unbeatable trump in BGx pseudo-mirrors, against Miracles, and puts in solid work against D&T. He's worth bringing in against Eldrazi since the Deathtouch Wolves that Garruk, the Veil-Cursed makes are basically a free Strix every turn.

As I love garruk and would agree that he could possibly do work against death and taxes don't you think it would be somewhat unreliable to cast a four drop against wasteland, rishadan port, Thalia, revoker on death rite and then to top it off mirran crusader cares not what garruk does, then you have to worry about mom! The only plus is that it's just green so you don't have to have blue to cast it. Sadly I keep him out and just try to lower my curve. Also against eldrazi the 1/1s are awesome but you only have four cards that flip him (eldrazi mimic) unless you're targeting your own creatures.... Not trying to be a naysayer just bringing up the counter points, I think garruk is a beast just not in those particular match ups.

[btm10]

As I love garruk and would agree that he could possibly do work against death and taxes don't you think it would be somewhat unreliable to cast a four drop against wasteland, rishadan port, Thalia, revoker on death rite and then to top it off mirran crusader cares not what garruk does, then you have to worry about mom! The only plus is that it's just green so you don't have to have blue to cast it. Sadly I keep him out and just try to lower my curve. Also against eldrazi the 1/1s are awesome but you only have four cards that flip him (eldrazi mimic) unless you're targeting your own creatures.... Not trying to be a naysayer just bringing up the counter points, I think garruk is a beast just not in those particular match ups.

You aren't winning any games against D&T where you don't get to four main phase mana anyway, and Garruk is way better than Force and discard against them. Killing Mimics or small Endless Ones is a fine use for Garruk's 0 ability, and I'm thrilled trading my own Shardless Agent or Deathrite to flip Garruk in the mid game. They can't beat the 1/1s without Endbringer or All is Dust, and those cards are what Wasteland, Force of Will, and extra removal are for.

[TheHeff]

Interesting about Garruk, I'll have to give him a shot. What do you think I should take out of the SB to fit him? Right now I'm leaning heavily towards cutting the 3rd Strix, and to a smaller degree maybe the third Thoughtseize. It seems like a pretty diverse meta so far...

Current SB, full list in sig:
1x Baleful Strix
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
3x Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Toxic Deluge

[minyafriend]

Interesting about Garruk, I'll have to give him a shot. What do you think I should take out of the SB to fit him? Right now I'm leaning heavily towards cutting the 3rd Strix, and to a smaller degree maybe the third Thoughtseize. It seems like a pretty diverse meta so far...

Current SB, full list in sig:
1x Baleful Strix
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
3x Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Toxic Deluge

4th baleful strix is the card that pops out at first glance but it really depends on what you expect to see. Garruk is great against Bug/grixis delver, mirror, miracles and jund where the fourth strix would be good but probably not as good as garruk against the mirror, jund and strictly better against u/r + rug delver, eldrazi and worse against miracles.
I'm sure you'll get other opinions but I'd just say try em all out and see what fits your meta and playstyle best!

[MorphBerlin]

Interesting about Garruk, I'll have to give him a shot. What do you think I should take out of the SB to fit him? Right now I'm leaning heavily towards cutting the 3rd Strix, and to a smaller degree maybe the third Thoughtseize. It seems like a pretty diverse meta so far...

Current SB, full list in sig:
1x Baleful Strix
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
3x Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Toxic Deluge

I would cut one of the 4 Removal (which one is depending whether value or mana efficiency is more important to you) or the 4th Leyline. TS is too important in any combo MU and Garruk also fights creatures.

[hoernchen]

Hey guys,

Influenced by The Brainstorm Show podcast I've been running a Jitte in the maindeck for a little while now and it's been overperforming so I bumped the number up to two. The deck was struggling with Grixis Delver and Monastery Mentor a bit and Jitte is phenomenal vs both. It's been working almost as a proactive replacement for Toxic Deluge, I'd be interested to hear if anybody else has been trying it? The list below has been running pretty smoothly.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach

2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

SB:

2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Duress
1 Disfigure
1 Murderous Cut
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle

Did in the end, anyone try out the list from the Brainstorm Show?

[TheHeff]

Did in the end, anyone try out the list from the Brainstorm Show?

I didn't try their full list since I don't agree 100% with their inclusions/cuts from the "stock" list, but I did take some inspiration from them in some SB choices.

[ethebubbeth]

Did in the end, anyone try out the list from the Brainstorm Show?

I ran their list a few weeks ago at a small local tourney...

2-1 vs 12 Post
2-0 vs Grixis Delver
0-2 vs BR Spanish Inquisition.

The combo match up felt abysmal, the others ones I felt in the drivers seat.

I'd only played shardless one time before and it was a very midrange build (2 jace, 3 lili, 2 deluge, sylvan all in the main) and I liked this list much better. It felt much more streamlined.

[btm10]

I haven't tried their exact list, but I've made a lot of their decisions at different points. Some are good, some are metagame dependent, but the list looks fine overall. I do think they should have either a third MD discard spell or a Ponder over the fourth Vision to shore up Tarmogoyf's size. A lot of games against Grixis Delver and Eldrazi are decided by having a 5/6 Goyf early on, and I've found builds without enough non-Vision Sorceries can struggle to get to that point, especially against Grixis since they can Delve away all of their Sorceries to cast Angler.

[TheHeff]

Ran into a BUG Food Chain list last night at my weekly Legacy event, and don't play that matchup all that often. The guy was running some new tech, a 4x Eternal Scourge (http://media.wizards.com/2016/ouhtebrpjwxcnw5_EMN/en_S4QNYVFM40.png) which was pretty difficult to deal with. I ended up losing 2-1 after going up 1-0. How would you sideboard for this matchup?

I went:
+1 Baleful Strix
+1 Pithing Needle
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Toxic Delulge
-3 Ancestral Vision
-2 Liliana

My reasoning being that Strix is still a good blocker for Griffin/Scourge if they decide to play the beatdown game, and Thoughtseize for some targeted discard replacing Lili. Visions doesn't seem all that great other than being pitchable to Force, and it's not really a card advantage matchup. It might've been right to try to bring in a Disfigure or two for his Deathrites, but it's dead against all their other creatures and doesn't seem that good. Thoughts?

[Whitefaces]

Ran into a BUG Food Chain list last night at my weekly Legacy event, and don't play that matchup all that often. The guy was running some new tech, a 4x Eternal Scourge (http://media.wizards.com/2016/ouhtebrpjwxcnw5_EMN/en_S4QNYVFM40.png) which was pretty difficult to deal with. I ended up losing 2-1 after going up 1-0. How would you sideboard for this matchup?

I went:
+1 Baleful Strix
+1 Pithing Needle
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Toxic Delulge
-3 Ancestral Vision
-2 Liliana

My reasoning being that Strix is still a good blocker for Griffin/Scourge if they decide to play the beatdown game, and Thoughtseize for some targeted discard replacing Lili. Visions doesn't seem all that great other than being pitchable to Force, and it's not really a card advantage matchup. It might've been right to try to bring in a Disfigure or two for his Deathrites, but it's dead against all their other creatures and doesn't seem that good. Thoughts?

I disagree with taking out Visions and Liliana, the matchup does revolve around card advantage, just that they have a combo finish too so it can be tough. Most Food Chain players I've talked to win with Griffin beatdown vs Shardless.

Food Chain is a mana ability too, so Needle doesn't stop it if you had it for that?

[TheHeff]

I disagree with taking out Visions and Liliana, the matchup does revolve around card advantage, just that they have a combo finish too so it can be tough. Most Food Chain players I've talked to win with Griffin beatdown vs Shardless.

Food Chain is a mana ability too, so Needle doesn't stop it if you had it for that?

Yeah, forgot about the mana ability part. I haven't played enough with the matchup (maybe 2 pairings in the last 2 years) to really get the dynamic, but it's an interesting idea about the card advantage being more the focus. If you leave out the Needle and Thoughtseize, then, Strix and Deluge still seem great. Maybe cut like...the Jace and maybe the basic swamp? I hate to cut the Jace but when half of the threats are flying 3/3s, he seems like he could very well end up being a 4 mana brainstorm a lot of the time. Full list is in sig, but for the lazy: 2/1 Lili/Jace split, 2 Strix, 1/1 Deluge/Pulse, 4 Visions, 3 Hymn main deck setup.

[joande]

Hello, I'm building BUG "Shardless" Control and have been reading through many of the pages of this thread.

I was thinking of adding one sylvan library to the MB and I wonder why others would not have thought of this. What am I missing?

[Traveler]

Hello, I'm building BUG "Shardless" Control and have been reading through many of the pages of this thread.

I was thinking of adding one sylvan library to the MB and I wonder why others would not have thought of this. What am I missing?

Plenty of people have thought of this (and done it). But the reason Shardless loses is generally not because the deck can't get enough value, but because you get out-tempo'ed or you aren't able to assemble the correct answers to what your combo opponents are doing.

This deck has enough value built in already, and library does nothing to assist our bad matchups (it even makes them worse with life loss and how slow it is).

[TheHeff]

So with the spoiling of Recruiter of the Guard (http://static.starcitygames.com/www/images/article/16August2016Preview01.png) for DnT, what are people's initial thoughts on how that will affect Shardless lists? It seems like they might go very heavy on 1-of "silver bullet" type creatures like Ethersworn Canonist, Aven Mindcensor, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Mirran Crusader, etc. Obviously depends on your meta, just curious how people see tweaking their lists in the coming months.

[movingtonewao]

well, more dread of night in the sideboard and call it a day :)

[TheHeff]

Uhh....and then they printed this: Sanctum Prelate (http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Sanctum-Prelate_EN.png)

4x Dread of Night SB it is! All seriousness, this will drastically alter the current meta, it craps on so many decks so hard. It's going to be a serious problem.

[James718]

Do you think the new legendary elf can work in this deck?

[MorphBerlin]

Do you think the new legendary elf can work in this deck?

I think it's interesting but overall not enough to make the cut. The decks I'd say it shines against are Delver, Miracles, Storm and maybe the mirror. Delver just bolts it and the mana cost is not where you wanna be in that MU. Miracles can just plow or Terminus it, only with plow you end up at +1 CA but that is not really too exiting. A 3CMC card agaisnt storm is pretty slow. In the Mirror it seems fine.

[btm10]

Uhh....and then they printed this: Sanctum Prelate (http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Sanctum-Prelate_EN.png)

4x Dread of Night SB it is! All seriousness, this will drastically alter the current meta, it craps on so many decks so hard. It's going to be a serious problem.

I think that without a major rebuild you just won't want to be on Shardless in another month. I put the deck down beause Thalia, Heretic Cathar took D&T from a slightly unfavorable matchup to an almost-as-bad-as-burn disaster, even with MD Jitte. The new cards definitely don't help. I might put some effort into it once the dust settles, but I worry that Shardless doesn't have a meta niche anymore.

[MorphBerlin]

I think that without a major rebuild you just won't want to be on Shardless in another month. I put the deck down beause Thalia, Heretic Cathar took D&T from a slightly unfavorable matchup to an almost-as-bad-as-burn disaster, even with MD Jitte. The new cards definitely don't help. I might put some effort into it once the dust settles, but I worry that Shardless doesn't have a meta niche anymore.

Defenitly dont see it as grim but we will see where this will be going. New Thalia, White Recruiter, Chalice creature is a serious boost though. Probalby cant go to fewer than 2 deluge in you 75 now, Plague or NOSB may need to come back as well.

[Whit3boy316]

I think that without a major rebuild you just won't want to be on Shardless in another month. I put the deck down beause Thalia, Heretic Cathar took D&T from a slightly unfavorable matchup to an almost-as-bad-as-burn disaster, even with MD Jitte. The new cards definitely don't help. I might put some effort into it once the dust settles, but I worry that Shardless doesn't have a meta niche anymore.

I somewhat agree....my meta is full of dredge, dnt, and infect.

To combat the issue of not having a mwta niche i removed the hand hate lili & jace for more removal.....i found that cssting hymn doesnt do anything great for me moat times, jace is to slow. And lili vack fires on me becaise we cast so many spells in a turn that i usually have less cards in hand than my opponent so lili hurta me more

[MorphBerlin]

I somewhat agree....my meta is full of dredge, dnt, and infect.

To combat the issue of not having a mwta niche i removed the hand hate lili & jace for more removal.....i found that cssting hymn doesnt do anything great for me moat times, jace is to slow. And lili vack fires on me becaise we cast so many spells in a turn that i usually have less cards in hand than my opponent so lili hurta me more

Playing punishin Jund or AggroLoam or Lands. Seems to be more effective

[TheHeff]

Playing punishin Jund or AggroLoam or Lands. Seems to be more effective

I don't know if it's all that grim, the thing I really liked about Shardless is it was in colors that always had answers. We can add Dread of Night (or Night of Souls' Betrayal) to the sideboard, cut Jace and some number of Forces, add more Toxic Deluge/Maelstrom Pulse instead of discard, maybe toss in an Engineered Explosives or two. Baleful Strix is still a great stalling card, and black removal comes in all kinds of mana costs.

Miracles will be able to adapt by diversifying their sweeper suite (Pyroclasm, Supreme Verdict, Engineered Explosives) and probably cutting Jace. It might also try working in a Stoneforge package again to allow B-skull and Jitte to add some game against DnT. It might completely push out combo, as having Recruiter to tutor up bullets like Containment Priest and Ethersworn Canonist along with Prelate will completely shut off Storm, SnT, and Reanimator decks. Not necessarily a bad thing for us.

All in all, the meta is going to shift like crazy, for sure. I just think we have the tools to make the matchup around 50/50. We don't really expect DnT to snag a 20-25% meta share, do we? Wizards would certainly think about a ban in that case, I would have to believe.

[minyafriend]

If d+t starts running more tutor cards then Thoughtseize gets obviously better in the matchup. Not sure if y'all have room for ts in your sideboard plans for d+t but it's not terrible.

[kingtk3]

Reguarding Recruiter of the Guard pushing out combo from the format: the card costs 3 and then the fetched creature (containment, canonist, Prelate) must also be cast afterward.
In the ideal scenario where D&T plays a vial on the first turn and a land drop every turn it can resolve a 2 CC hate creature on turn 3: most of the combo decks of the format would have already comboed or find a solution by that point.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So you are saying that dnt's best plays of turn 1 vial, turn 2 Thalia off of cavern, turn 3 recruiter off of cavern into an Ethersworn Canonist/containment priest vialed in is just...not...good enough against combo? It feels like you may be wrong.

Edit: I apologize if that came across as rude, I was at work and just in a hurry. I do think, however, that DnT has game, quite a bit actually, against combo. Sometimes you can't beat a turn 1 EtW for 6 storm. Sometimes Griselbrand off of a turn 2 Show n Tell with Force backup gets there. However, there are plenty of games where cantripping multiple times and getting ported/wastelanded into having to waste the cantrips finding more lands is enough time to vial in or draw into the creatures that do impact more than the board state, and do grind those games out.

[Krimson Viper]

I'm thinking about taking this deck and picking up Magic for a tournament. Problem is, I don't know what I'm looking at in terms of what's in the meta these days. What new cards are in decks these days, and what decks are popular these days? My main concentration is beating Miracles, so this is the main deck:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar-Pit
2 Wasteland

1 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip

Suggestions would be much appreciated!

[Mysential]

I'm thinking about taking this deck and picking up Magic for a tournament. Problem is, I don't know what I'm looking at in terms of what's in the meta these days. What new cards are in decks these days, and what decks are popular these days? My main concentration is beating Miracles, so this is the main deck:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar-Pit
2 Wasteland

1 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip

Suggestions would be much appreciated!

You do want to interact with TKS somehow that isn't 2 lilis and a pulse. I took out disfigures for 2 dismembers. I would cut a Thoughtseize and a krosan for 2 dismembers. Not having dread of nights knowing DnT will be at your tournament is also a huge misplay. Eldrazi and DnT are going to be popular decks next to miracles being cheap and efficient.

[Finn]

Reguarding Recruiter of the Guard pushing out combo from the format: the card costs 3 and then the fetched creature (containment, canonist, Prelate) must also be cast afterward.
In the ideal scenario where D&T plays a vial on the first turn and a land drop every turn it can resolve a 2 CC hate creature on turn 3: most of the combo decks of the format would have already comboed or find a solution by that point.
King, the D+T players won't be counting on Recruiter in that way. When the game plays out well for D+T against combo it looks like a turn 2 Thalia, Canonist, Revoker, Containment Priest, Rest in Peace, or whatever to slow the game down. That gives you several more turns to deploy a second threat. It is at that point that Recruiter fetching Prelate looks pretty strong.

[btm10]

I'm thinking about taking this deck and picking up Magic for a tournament. Problem is, I don't know what I'm looking at in terms of what's in the meta these days. What new cards are in decks these days, and what decks are popular these days? My main concentration is beating Miracles, so this is the main deck:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar-Pit
2 Wasteland

1 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip

Suggestions would be much appreciated!

I'd make the following changes:

Maindeck:
-1 Delta
-1 Jace
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Ancestral Vision
+2 Wasteland
+1 Baleful Strix
+1 Ponder or Baleful Strix

Sideboard:
-2 Krosan Grip
-1 Surgical Extraction
-1 Golgari Charm
+1 Dismember
+1 Leyline of the Void or Planar Void
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Painful Truths, Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Revoker, Dismember, Maelstrom Pulse, Umezawa's Jitte, Liliana, the Last Hope, Virtue's Ruin, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague, Golgari Charm, Duress, Life from the Loam, or Crucible of Worlds (this is more of a flex slot, I realize that Golgari Charm is what I'm suggesting be cut for it, but I think these options are all worth considering)

Going up on Wastelands lets you go down on fetches and makes Lands much more manageable while giving you some free wins against Eldrazi and Delver. Ponder works immediately rather than making you wait 4 turns and helps with Goyf sizing. You just want more Strixes in any fair matchup, and Jace is almost always a liability at this point. I've made all of these arguments on previous pages in more detail.

The board changes I recommend are more drastic, but your board didn't seem very focused on its ostensible point, which is beating Miracles while not folding to everything else. Surgical Extraction is questionable in lots of decks to begin with, and it's at its absolute worst when you Cascade into it. Your maindeck is well configured to beat Miracles as it is, so your sideboard plan should just be to attack Top and avoid getting punked out by Mentor and Red Blasts. Painful Truths and Garruk are the best value plays against them because they aren't Blue and almost always are 2-for-1s at worst. Garruk in particular is almost unbeatable if he sticks for 2 turns while also being some of the best counterplay to Terminus available in the format.

[Krimson Viper]

You do want to interact with TKS somehow that isn't 2 lilis and a pulse. I took out disfigures for 2 dismembers. I would cut a Thoughtseize and a krosan for 2 dismembers. Not having dread of nights knowing DnT will be at your tournament is also a huge misplay. Eldrazi and DnT are going to be popular decks next to miracles being cheap and efficient.
What is "TKS?" Do you mean to have a total of four Dismembers or just two? Removing the Disfigure would give me space for two Dismembers. Has Delver mostly disappeared?


I'd make the following changes:

Maindeck:
-1 Delta
-1 Jace
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Ancestral Vision
+2 Wasteland
+1 Baleful Strix
+1 Ponder or Baleful Strix

Sideboard:
-2 Krosan Grip
-1 Surgical Extraction
-1 Golgari Charm
+1 Dismember
+1 Leyline of the Void or Planar Void
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Painful Truths, Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Revoker, Dismember, Maelstrom Pulse, Umezawa's Jitte, Liliana, the Last Hope, Virtue's Ruin, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague, Golgari Charm, Duress, Life from the Loam, or Crucible of Worlds (this is more of a flex slot, I realize that Golgari Charm is what I'm suggesting be cut for it, but I think these options are all worth considering)

Going up on Wastelands lets you go down on fetches and makes Lands much more manageable while giving you some free wins against Eldrazi and Delver. Ponder works immediately rather than making you wait 4 turns and helps with Goyf sizing. You just want more Strixes in any fair matchup, and Jace is almost always a liability at this point. I've made all of these arguments on previous pages in more detail.

The board changes I recommend are more drastic, but your board didn't seem very focused on its ostensible point, which is beating Miracles while not folding to everything else. Surgical Extraction is questionable in lots of decks to begin with, and it's at its absolute worst when you Cascade into it. Your maindeck is well configured to beat Miracles as it is, so your sideboard plan should just be to attack Top and avoid getting punked out by Mentor and Red Blasts. Painful Truths and Garruk are the best value plays against them because they aren't Blue and almost always are 2-for-1s at worst. Garruk in particular is almost unbeatable if he sticks for 2 turns while also being some of the best counterplay to Terminus available in the format.
Do you mean for the deck to run on four Wasteland? Any color issues?

Just because I'm raising questions doesn't mean I'm not considering it. I'm questioning things so I can understand for better game play decisions.

[btm10]

TKS is Thought-Knot Seer. I haven't had color problems with 4 Wastelands; Ponder definitely helps smooth out the mana.

[Mysential]

I still like the Sylvan Library + shardless and gives you a better midrange strat against DnT, Miracles, and Eldrazi. You are already pre boarding for those match ups and sylvan helps you dig into your deck the moment you put it down vs. Ponder where they can just counter it (miracles).

Liliana, the last hope has been so far the real deal vs. DnT. I have been boarding her against miracles because garruk is a bit slow at 4, and it really depends on the miracle builds if they have more 3s or 4s. The last list so far on somerset was 5 4 drops, and 4 3 drops making liliana harder to counter. Her ultimate is basically the same thing, but i will continue to test if garruk is still better or if liliana does the same job, just 2 turns slower.

1-2 dismembers is just fine. You don't need a full 4 to deal with Seers, it could be 2 disfigure + 1 dismember, but if you don't see eldrazi in your meta. The 2-1 split is fine, but if eldrazi is a large portion, then bump to either a 1 - 2 or cut disfigure completely for 2 dread of night and 2 dismember.

SB would be like:
2 Dread of Night
2 surgical extraction
2 thoughtseize
2 ravenous traps or leyline of the void (I prefer ravenous due to being able to play it at any point of the game vs. waiting to open it or pay 4 mana, your choice)
2 Dismember
1 Liliana, the last hope
1 pithing needle
1 toxic deluge (should be mained if you see large DnT and Eldrazi)
1 null rod
1 Jitte

Dread of night is clearly for DnT, but you also bring it in vs miracle mentor decks.

Surgical is a MUST imo, pushes storm and lands out as you take care of grove and combo pieces. Also has generic use in mirror matches, etc.

Thoughtseize is powerful vs. sneak and show + combo decks.

Ravenous or leyline is must against dredge, like i said i prefer ravenous due to being playable at any point of the game.

2 Dismember if you see eldrazi, otherwise 2-1 split cutting the null rod. Null rod isn't really necessary unless you know there is a MUD deck.

Liliana against miracles and DnT, Nut vs. Dnt and still testing vs. miracles. It is still a clock, but it is a very slow clock and you have time because its miracles and your board is growing at an exponential state.

Jitte for mirror, eldrazi, dnt.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I prefer 2 library in my 75. 1x main, 1x board. I always play 1x main in Junk and shardless.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[TheHeff]

Wanted to add my two cents here as well, I agree much more with btm's choices. Library is an insane card, but it's more of a durdly smoothing card. Shardless is already set up as a card advantage deck that uses life as a resource until it gets stabilized, then wins with a grindy long game by sheer CA. Library uses life to generate card advantage, and smooths our draws, but does not forward our game plan proactively. It's basically just an enchantment to grow goyf. A 1-of Ponder works fine if you're looking for more smoothing- it pitches to force and has a built-in shuffle effect, which is extremely relevant.

For reference, I play 2 Strix (3rd in board), 3 hymn, 2 Lili/ 1 Jace, and 1/1 Pulse & Deluge. I play 9 fetches, 1 tar pit, 3 wasteland. The Jace is extremely close to being cut for that third Strix. My sideboard is as follows:

2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
1x Baleful Strix
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
3x Thoughtseize
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Garruk Relentless

My local meta is very heavy in Lands/Reanimator/ANT, hence the 4 Leylines, but I actually really like the setup for an open meta as well, as it's serious hate for some of our worst matchups. If I cut Jace and move the Strix main, I'll probably add a second Deluge to the board, the card is insane. I'm sacrificing something against elves and Nic Fit by not having a cage, but those matchups are so bad and the decks are uncommon enough that I'm OK losing to them if they come along.

[The Duck!!]

What do you guys think of trying out liliana, the last hope in the main and collective brutality off the side?

[btm10]

I'm currently trying out a 1/1 split of the two three mana Lilianas (and the Last Hope has been quite strong) but Collective Brutality seems too slow as removal and too narrow as discard to be worth the slot. It's not like Dimir Charm where you give up some versatility to get access to an effect the deck doesn't normally have access to. Testing it is totally reasonable, but I'm skeptical.

[drocker23]

Garruk is insane in any matchup where you can expect to cast him. At his worst he's a Bitterblossom but makes 2/2s and randomly kills a Snapcaster Mage. At his best he's an almost unbeatable trump in BGx pseudo-mirrors, against Miracles, and puts in solid work against D&T. He's worth bringing in against Eldrazi since the Deathtouch Wolves that Garruk, the Veil-Cursed makes are basically a free Strix every turn.


Is it with this reasoning that one may consider taking out Jace, the Mind Sculptor for Garruk Relentless in the main?

And I really do think Shardless needs to be running at least 1 Engineered Plague especially if you're running the 2nd Toxic Deluge in the board. I think that Engineered Plague wins the spot over the second Toxic Deluge because having permanent answers to things is usually a good thing for us. Plus having Plague and Deluge gives the deck better versatility and flexibility. Yes, I think it's perfectly reasonable to bring in Engineered Plague and name "Monk". I hate to say it, but I think the worst cards in our sideboard at this point in time are our graveyard hate cards. At high level events, Reanimator shows up in low numbers or not at all, and Dredge hardly makes it past the first few rounds. Legacy players seem to be playing more "fair" decks than anything else. If I made a top 5 list of the most popular decks in Legacy right now, I'd say they are:
1) Miracles
2) Grixis Delver
3) Infect
4) Storm
5) Eldrazi
*not necessarily in that order but I think the order might be pretty close.

I haven't quite finished my deck list yet. I'm messing around with the idea of playing Leovold, Emissary of Trest as a 1 of in the main. Shutting down opposing Brainstorms, Ponders, and Tops seems like a really good effect to have in this type of deck. It's not like Leovold is the best card Shardless BUG has ever seen or anything like that, but it might be worth having one just to have access to the effect.

These are my current thoughts on Shardless BUG as of right now.

[scry_me_a_river]

Hey=)

I'm new at The Source and with Shardless BUG. So far I have only played Jund and Aggro Loam and I'm a big fan of grindy midrange decks with a serious value train. Thus I came across Shardless and so far I have been very pleased.

Nevertheless, I got some minor problems/questions which I couldn't solve/answer myself (this primer is really extensive and there are a lot of posts I still have to cover^^):

1) Are there any regular streamers with Shardless Aggro? I'm listening to numerous podcasts but I feel that some specific Shardless content would be helpful.

2) As a Jund player, I really appreciated the power of Wasteland, 1 cmc Discard and Hymn to Tourach. However, current lists don't seem to maximize these slots. Is it possible to play 4 Wasteland and 7-8 Discard Spells? (currently I am playing The Brainstorm Show's List which I really enjoy - however they are rather short on discard).

Any advice is very much appreciated=D

[halahel]

I used to run four Wastelands. I cut it to three and added another basic in response to the rising prevalence of other Wasteland decks, namely Death and Taxes, and decks that are gonna loam/waste me into oblivion.. Shardless's mana is notoriously shaky, and I don't think four wastelands is smart anymore. As for discard, I run a fairly typical discard build with 2 thoughtseizes and three hymns. The reason I don't run more is because, while an early cascade into Hymn is a blow-out, a late cascade into Thoughtseize blows.

[minyafriend]

Hey=)

I'm new at The Source and with Shardless BUG. So far I have only played Jund and Aggro Loam and I'm a big fan of grindy midrange decks with a serious value train. Thus I came across Shardless and so far I have been very pleased.

Nevertheless, I got some minor problems/questions which I couldn't solve/answer myself (this primer is really extensive and there are a lot of posts I still have to cover^^):

1) Are there any regular streamers with Shardless Aggro? I'm listening to numerous podcasts but I feel that some specific Shardless content would be helpful.

2) As a Jund player, I really appreciated the power of Wasteland, 1 cmc Discard and Hymn to Tourach. However, current lists don't seem to maximize these slots. Is it possible to play 4 Wasteland and 7-8 Discard Spells? (currently I am playing The Brainstorm Show's List which I really enjoy - however they are rather short on discard).

Any advice is very much appreciated=D

i think the brainstorm list is criminally short on lands. 21 lands is really greedy. you should just look at your meta and decide what you want your md to be good against. the problem with wasteland i find is that the deck is sososososo mana hungry that sometimes you cant afford to use your wasteland to get them. its not really what the deck is trying to do. although wasteland can get you some games its usually smarter to just use the wasteland to get their utility lands like tarpits in the mirror and volcanics against miracles. its also good against eldrazi but being able to cast baleful strixes is wayyyyyy better. i see some people who run 4 wasteland adding a 1 of loam or crucible in the sideboard which ive tried and is pretty cool but again i think its really not what the deck is trying to do. another matchup where having 4 wasteland is good is lands but your matchup there is SO BAD you have to really warp your sideboard to beat it and if youre running 4 leyline they can still assemble the combo and you still have to draw a pithing needle that they can k grip so i just think that matchup is just really bad and you should just hope to not see it. even if youre running the meddling mage package you have to name punishing fire and then life from the loam your mana is even more fragile and they can STILL just naturally draw the combo. wasteland is also great against infect but pithing needle also helps on the same wavelength against inkmoth.
sorry as far as your question goes i think:
4 underground
1 trop
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacomb
1 misty
1 marsh flats
1 swamp
1 forest
4 wasteland
is good if you like wasteland.
if you like tar pit i like 1 tar pit 3 wasteland or 2 tar pit/2 wasteland. if your meta is full of wasteland decks you can also up bayou and trop counts. i usually think you want more bayou if youre playing hymns md and more trops if youre into jace tms and vendilion clique. i like not running double blue spells because of how vulnerable your mana is, and also how much of a blowout reb/pyro blasts are. most games youre lowering your mana curve and simplifying the mana you need allowing you to run smoothly if youre forced to use 2-3 mana. i think if you want to not get wasted off green mana you just need to be conservative with what you fetch against certain matchups or up your bayou/trop, drop an underground and or misty/polluted/marsh flats. i like 10 fetchlands but 9 seems ok and 8 seems too low. the deck runs really nice on the pairs underground/forest, trop/swamp and underground, forest, swamp so unless youre really going for that hymn i wouldnt be afraid to fetch smart!
there are also other utility lands to consider such as tower of the magistrate, raths edge and volraths stronghold but i really dont think they match wastelands power level.

hope this helps

[drocker23]

So i'm thinking of just straight cutting the hymns from the main deck. there are only 2 so our discard plan in game 1 is pretty unreliable and depending on how our mana turns out in the first few turns, (fetching, basics, wasteland, or being wastelanded), our mana isn't always able to support the double black for it. sometimes it can be hard enough to get double black for Liliana of the Veil if we haven't had our mana messed with. On that note, messing with this deck's mana is one of the best ways to beat this deck. That being said, I'm considering trying out a list that looks something like this.

Lands (23)

2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Creatures (15)
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (22)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Dismember
3 Force of Will
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15)

2 Disfigure
2 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Force of Will
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Notion Thief
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique

Some card choice explanations
1) If you're not running the Meddling Mage package in the sideboard then I like having access to the 23rd land in the main. This deck is super mana hungry and needs it's land drops. Especially when some of those land drops are make us vulnerable like Wasteland and Creeping Tar Pit. Wasteland because it can color screw us, or be 1 less mana for us if we use it, and creeping tar pit if it comes into play, gets wastelanded or ported and basically never untaps. 22 Lands is probably still fine considering the main deck is missing the 4th Force of Will. If I went to 22 Lands I'd cut the 3rd Wasteland. But the 3rd Wasteland as the 23 Land makes me feel like I have more freedom to toss an early Wasteland at my opponent and not get punished for it.

2) There are a lot of people who will probably say there is no possible way you can cut Hymn to Tourach from this deck because it has been a staple in it for so long. To that I say, do not forget that Thoughtseize ALSO used to be a staple of this deck. But even it was cut from the maindeck because over time it had less and less value based on the decks that were prevalent in the metagame. If you think about your strategy in game 2 and 3 against the popular decks in the format, Hymn to Tourach is lousy vs all but one of them. Storm. And I hate to say it but we're probably not winning Game 1 against Storm with access to only 2 Hymn to Tourach. I also don't think Hymn is very effective against Miracles because if they get a Sensei's Divining Top in play, then they're playing off the top of their deck anyway. Against Infect, Eldrazi, and Death and Taxes it doesn't really matter what they have in hand. Against Grixis Delver, Hymn fuels the opponent's Delve mechanic pretty well. In my experience, the Grixis Delver matchup has also been very favorable for us because they have a hard time getting past our threats. But watch out, Forked Bolt kills your Baleful Strixes so hard. The threats that we need to answer are on the battlefield. So I feel with the current metagame, Hymn to Tourach may need to stay in the sideboard.

3) With moving Hymn to Tourach to the sideboard the question became, what do you want instead? Sometimes when playing this deck I feel like I come up short on removal. So I tried to come up with a removal spell that wouldn't punish us for using the Cascade mechanic. For example, you could run Disfigure as it has great application vs Infect, Death and Taxes and Grixis Delver. However, having 6 spells that could potentially miss seems like a bad idea. We all know the dreaded feeling of cascading into an Abrupt Decay when it doesn't have targets. So it's with this in mind that I went for Dismember. It can be used early for 1 mana which is great if our mana is being messed with. Or, since we run plently of black sources we can afford not having to pay life all the time to cast the spell. Because of the potential for life loss though, it might be worth considering the removal of Toxic Deluge from the maindeck as well.

4) Garruk Relentless instead of Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Again, a card choice that makes me go "whaaaaat!?" but all things considering, Garruk might just be better at 4 mana by giving us something this deck really lacks. Creatures to attack with. Tarmogoyf is our heavy hitter. Everyone knows that. But how often do you find yourself attacking with just Shardless Agents and Baleful Strixes? Garruk does only make 2/2's but if he goes unanswered long enough, that endless stream of 2/2's can win us the game as well as give us more creatures to block, preserving our life total. And worst case scenario, he comes down and kills something. But Garruk is supposed to be really good against Miracles from what I've been hearing and of course it doesn't die to Pyroblast. This is only half of it though. The other reason why it's good is because it can keep pumping out creatures even after our opponent casts a Terminus. Allowing us to only play 1 or 2 of our actual creatures while filling the board up with expendable token creatures that will just keep coming turns after the Terminus has cleared the board.

5) Narrow sideboard cards like Dread of Night aren't usually what I go after when it comes to my sideboard for this deck, but Death and Taxes has trouble dealing with permanent based removal. Engineered Plague may seem narrow as well but it actually helps out in a lot of matchups killing Young Pyromancer tokens, Monastery Mentor tokens, problematic creatures like Mother of Runes and Thalia. And is even there when you happen to face of that dreaded Elf deck. It's a turn faster than Night of Soul's Betrayal and doesn't hurt us since our creatures won't get smaller as a result of this card being on the battlefield.

SO, I'd love to hear some feedback regarding this list keeping in mind that the decks I have in mind that I'm trying to tweak this deck against are, Miracles, Infect, Eldrazi, Grixis Delver, Death and Taxes, and Storm.

TLDR - Hymn to Tourach gets boarded out in almost every single matchup. Why not just move it to the sideboard and play more relevant cards instead? Sideboard options aimed to be more streamlined against the 6 decks listed above.

[scry_me_a_river]

Thank you very much for your comprehensive replies! This is exactly the kind of explanation I was hoping for.

I did some more testing and I feel definitely the urge to up the discard/wasteland package^^

I am not a huge fan of netdecking but especially when I start playing a new archetype, I tend to pick up a build with a certain idea behind it and tune it afterwards. Thus I will continue my testing with Lukas Blohon's build from GP Prague (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/top-8-decklists-2016-06-12).

Coming back to the streaming question: Can you recommend anyone?

And finally: It seems that Jayce ran out of favor - is this due to the warping meta game?

Kind regards,

C

[btm10]

Hey=)

I'm new at The Source and with Shardless BUG. So far I have only played Jund and Aggro Loam and I'm a big fan of grindy midrange decks with a serious value train. Thus I came across Shardless and so far I have been very pleased.

Nevertheless, I got some minor problems/questions which I couldn't solve/answer myself (this primer is really extensive and there are a lot of posts I still have to cover^^):

1) Are there any regular streamers with Shardless Aggro? I'm listening to numerous podcasts but I feel that some specific Shardless content would be helpful.

2) As a Jund player, I really appreciated the power of Wasteland, 1 cmc Discard and Hymn to Tourach. However, current lists don't seem to maximize these slots. Is it possible to play 4 Wasteland and 7-8 Discard Spells? (currently I am playing The Brainstorm Show's List which I really enjoy - however they are rather short on discard).

Any advice is very much appreciated=D

Duress, Inquisition, and Thoughtseize are more sideboard cards than they are MD cards for Shardless in the current meta, largely because of Cascade. Hymn is so abstractly powerful and is extremely punishing in the early game that I think 3 is the right number. You're likely to Brainstorm a copy back late (since hitting land drops 4 and 5 is very important) or pitch it to Liliana, but the upside makes 3 worth it. Thoughtseize is better than the fourth Hymn for cost distribution reasons, but I don't think it's quite good enough to merit inclusion. I'm very much a supporter of four Wastelands, since it's one of the game's best 1-for-1 effects and lets you get utility as well as mana out of your lands. Sometimes you just suspend Vision, Wasteland an opponent a couple of times, draw three cards, and win the game.

I posted (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-Deck-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control&p=959720&viewfull=1#post959720) a list a few pages back, and while I've made a few changes, I'd be happy to sleeve that 75 up again. I'll post the update list a bit later.


Thank you very much for your comprehensive replies! This is exactly the kind of explanation I was hoping for.

I did some more testing and I feel definitely the urge to up the discard/wasteland package^^

I am not a huge fan of netdecking but especially when I start playing a new archetype, I tend to pick up a build with a certain idea behind it and tune it afterwards. Thus I will continue my testing with Lukas Blohon's build from GP Prague (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/top-8-decklists-2016-06-12).

Coming back to the streaming question: Can you recommend anyone?

And finally: It seems that Jayce ran out of favor - is this due to the warping meta game?

Kind regards,

C

The big reason behind cutting Jace is that he's at his best against other long game decks and those decks all either have very good answers to him (Punishing Fire, Red blasts), are mana denial decks where getting to 2UU is challenging (D&T, Lands) and Jace isn't enough of a payoff, or are good matchups already and Jace is just more of what we're already doing, so he's cut for cards that aren't as strong in an absolute sense but are good enough in more contexts. He's at his best against Miracles and mostly-extinct Death/Stoneblade decks, and they're increasingly on the Red Blast plan against us (3 +Snaps is quite common at this point). Spending 4 mana at sorcery speed just isn't great when they can trade that far up on mana.

I like a lot of stuff in Blohon's list, though for the reasons above I don't run Thoughtseize main.

Sadly, there's very little in the way of Shardless-specific online content. Unlike Jund and Abzan in Modern, Shardless doesn't attract many pro players, and I think it has one of the lowest average player skill levels of any blue deck in Legacy, so amateur content is somewhat likely to be dodgy.

[grim confident]

hi guys，
I feel Dead Weight is better than Disfigure.In most cases, we do not need cast Disfigure in opponent.When you want kill delver,dc,sfm or drs,Dead Weight as good as disfigure.Just Young Pyromancer and Vendilion Clique can create some problems.However,Dead Weight in some aspects better than Disfigure.First, it will make your tarmogoyf bigger.This will help you defeat some 5/5 or batterskull.
Second, and most important point!When you cast a shardless agent,they are completely different.For example，in sideboard and you face a rug delver.You and your opponent each control a tarmogoyf.You cast a shardless to find decay or another tarmogoyf.Unfortunately,shardless cast a disfigure.Or you don't control any creater,your opppnent control a batterskull,your shardless cast a disfigure.You cast 3mana juet get a 2/2!In sideboard,this often happen.in this situation,Dead Weight is much better than Disfigure.So I choose Dead weight in my sideboard.

welcome to discuss :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[matunos]

The biggest problem with Dead Weight versus Disfigure is that Disfigure is an instant.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The biggest problem with Dead Weight versus Disfigure is that Disfigure is an instant.
Which matchups will it matter in? Honestly, I'm not for sure. I'm not saying it's better than Disfigure but it does have some interesting applications, not necessarily all the ones offered, perhaps...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[LarsLeif]

Which matchups will it matter in? Honestly, I'm not for sure. I'm not saying it's better than Disfigure but it does have some interesting applications, not necessarily all the ones offered, perhaps...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

It matters a lot vs manlands and flash creatures. And also for curving out on the play. As lot of people have started playing fewer wastelands in shardless, making your efficient spot removal unable to target stuff like inkmoth nexus will leave you pretty vulnerable to infect etc.

[scry_me_a_river]

Duress, Inquisition, and Thoughtseize are more sideboard cards than they are MD cards for Shardless in the current meta, largely because of Cascade. Hymn is so abstractly powerful and is extremely punishing in the early game that I think 3 is the right number. You're likely to Brainstorm a copy back late (since hitting land drops 4 and 5 is very important) or pitch it to Liliana, but the upside makes 3 worth it. Thoughtseize is better than the fourth Hymn for cost distribution reasons, but I don't think it's quite good enough to merit inclusion. I'm very much a supporter of four Wastelands, since it's one of the game's best 1-for-1 effects and lets you get utility as well as mana out of your lands. Sometimes you just suspend Vision, Wasteland an opponent a couple of times, draw three cards, and win the game.

I posted (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-Deck-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control&p=959720&viewfull=1#post959720) a list a few pages back, and while I've made a few changes, I'd be happy to sleeve that 75 up again. I'll post the update list a bit later.



The big reason behind cutting Jace is that he's at his best against other long game decks and those decks all either have very good answers to him (Punishing Fire, Red blasts), are mana denial decks where getting to 2UU is challenging (D&T, Lands) and Jace isn't enough of a payoff, or are good matchups already and Jace is just more of what we're already doing, so he's cut for cards that aren't as strong in an absolute sense but are good enough in more contexts. He's at his best against Miracles and mostly-extinct Death/Stoneblade decks, and they're increasingly on the Red Blast plan against us (3 +Snaps is quite common at this point). Spending 4 mana at sorcery speed just isn't great when they can trade that far up on mana.

I like a lot of stuff in Blohon's list, though for the reasons above I don't run Thoughtseize main.

Sadly, there's very little in the way of Shardless-specific online content. Unlike Jund and Abzan in Modern, Shardless doesn't attract many pro players, and I think it has one of the lowest average player skill levels of any blue deck in Legacy, so amateur content is somewhat likely to be dodgy.

Thank you very much again for your answer!

I will try out the discard myself but it helps a lot to know the reasoning behind the numbers (e.g.: 2-3 Thoughtseizes seemed a bit awkward on first sight^^). Unfortunately, I won't be able to play this week but this gives me more time to build a nice list=)

I totally agree on the Wastelands - I think it is an important angle of midrange grindy decks with DRS. After playing some games with the Brainstorm's Show List, I couldn't fight the feeling that it lacks some interaction/angles I was used to with Jund. Especially the Discard/Wasteland Plan seems very important to fight other strategies. Just cascading into Goyfs or drawing X cards doesn't seem to do the trick alone (+ we don't have that much removal or counter spells). It seems much better if you can strip them from their ressources and fill up instantly while they recover much more slowly.

Btw is anyone going to Prague this November and consider playing Shardless BUG?

Kind regards,

C

[btm10]

It matters a lot vs manlands and flash creatures. And also for curving out on the play. As lot of people have started playing fewer wastelands in shardless, making your efficient spot removal unable to target stuff like inkmoth nexus will leave you pretty vulnerable to infect etc.

Aside from the fact that fewer than 3 Wastelands is almost certainly suboptimal (so I'm not that worried about creature-lands) , Instant speed has a lot of subtle benefits that you don't notice until you actually test Dead Weight.

Dead Weight is at its best in large creature matchups, where Goyf sizing matters most and where Disfigure often can't kill the most threatening creature our opponent has. In principle, putting Dead Weight on something like Reality Smasher or Gurmag Angler is quite good since it can't attack or block even if Goyf is only a 4/5. But the loss of instant speed also means that you can no longer use Disfigure as a combat trick to make your ubiquitous Agent + X double blocks trade with creatures that are free to attack on the surface, and creatures enchanted with Dead Weight are the first ones that get sacrificed to Liliana, meaning it can take longer before she can start to grind in earnest. Finally, Sorcery speed is a disaster against Death and Taxes. I'm always looking for potential Enchantments to work into the deck, but the bar is currently at Sylvan Library and Engineered Plague and slightly above Courser of Kruphix.

[btm10]

I will try out the discard myself but it helps a lot to know the reasoning behind the numbers (e.g.: 2-3 Thoughtseizes seemed a bit awkward on first sight^^). Unfortunately, I won't be able to play this week but this gives me more time to build a nice list=)


The argument against running more than 3-4 discard spells main is that they're on diminishing returns against fair decks. Brainstorm means people are less likely to end up with conditional spells or 4+ drops stuck in their hand like they do in Modern, so drawing Thoughtseize late is generally worse than drawing the other cards already in Shardless. A few Tar Pits or Factories (on top of Wastelands) turn on even your 6th and 7th land drops while a turn 5 Thoughtseize is almost always just waiting for a Brainstorm or Liliana.

The larger topic I wanted to bring up is new cards. MD Jitte is the closest this deck has come to having new tech in years, and I think that we as a community have been remiss in keeping stock-ish lists up to date. I'm going to list some cards I'm considering and my thought processes surrounding them in an effort to spur discussion. I'm not going to distinguish between MD and sideboard, but that can be part of the discussion.

1. City of Solitude

This is a card that I've actually tested, and it was surprisingly good. It turns off Ports, Vial and Mom on your turn, and Stage/Depths on your end step. It obviously totally wrecks Miracles as well. The downside is that it doesn't play to the board against D&T and is pretty slow against Lands, and it feels like it would end up in the sideboard slot that typically goes to Needle or Null Rod, both of which are important against combo decks where you need to have enough stuff to bring in for Decays and whatever other on-board interaction you've got in the main.

2. Jitte #2

Downside: Cascade + Legend Rule is quite the nonbo, and we already have a ton of cards that are good in fair matchups. It might be higher upside than an additional Disfigure or Dismember against creaure decks, but the downside is pretty bad. It does take two turns to come online in the early game.

Upside: When I said it was too slow before, I was very wrong. It's extremely good in any fair matchup, including Miracles. If your opponent is playing creatures, the entire game becomes about the Jitte, and it's almost impossible for them to win without destroying it if you get counters.

3. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar

There was a period right after my local Eldrazi players realized the Shardless matchups was ugly that I started facing some pretty hateful deckbuilding from them. Went W/R with Battlefield Forge for Displacer and Obligator out of the board, and another found space for nonsense like Blight Herder and Oblivion Sower alongside Awakening Zone. My answer ended up being a single MD Nissa, and I was definitely impressed. The Plants are excellent blockers, and her minus makes even Baleful Strix a potent attacker. I've never ultimated her.

4. Liliana, the Last Hope

I have ultimated this one, and it's pretty great. She's actually better than Liliana of the Veil against D&T and is conditionally better a lot of other places. She's also conditionally worse in a lot of places, and all-around worse against Eldrazi, Lands and combo. I think the emblem is more dangerous than Do or Die + Bend or Break, though it's very linear and doesn't do much in some matchups. That being said, Terminus is not enough to contain the emblem.

5. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

While not as powerful as other Planeswalkers named Jace, he also doesn't cost 4. The loot is often great filtering, especially since he can also fog something while transforming. He's blue, and being 2 cmc is a downside against Decays but an upside against unfair decks, where he often lets you rebuy a Thoughtseize, cantrip, or Hymn on turn 3. He's vulnerable to graveyard hate, but as long as he transforms his plus has text even without the minus, and again, the emblem is a beating.

[halahel]

I did very well with a stock(ish) list in the last two major tournaments I played early this summer, getting 2nd in a Super IQ and 14th at an SCG Classic. That being said, I agree that Shardless has stagnated and needs some tech. I have a couple insights to provide in support of your suggestions.

I've started running a 1/1 split of the two Lilianas. Last Hope seems really strong, especially against Death and Taxes. The -2 is also great with Strix and Shardless. I haven't had a chance to test extensively, but if there were a major tournament tomorrow, I would stick with the 1/1 split and run a couple edicts in the board. Along those lines:

I've also dropped big Jace in favor of baby Jace. I've played Shardless since 2014, and big Jace has always been something of a disappointment. He wins the rare match, but he much more often just sits in my hand, or gets mulliganed/brainstormed away. I went from 2 to 1 a long time ago, and never regretted it. Flashing back a hymn with baby Jace feels great, and since we're fairly light on removal, it's nice to get extra mileage there as well.

With dropping big Jace, I felt safe going from 22 to 21 land. Feels good so far.

I'm very curious about Nissa, Voice, and would love to see the list you're running her in. What did you drop for her?

[scry_me_a_river]

Hey again!

Contrary to my expectations, I managed to play a small tournament today (20 players) and I finished 2nd with 3:0:1.

This was the list I played (it is basically Lukas Blohon's List as mentioned before):

//lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

//creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix

//sorceries
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Maelstrom Pulse

//instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

//planeswalker
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

The sideboard is still WIP and tuned for my local meta (a lot of Elves + Death and Taxes, more fair MUs than unfair ones, basically no Eldrazi).

Most notable modification: I sleeved up "new Lilli" as suggested by halahel, especially considering my meta.

1) DnT (Win):
Game 1 was pretty close as I had strong board control with New Lilli. Unfortunately he managed to equip a sword on an Eidolon of Rhetorics which wrecked me in every possible way as you can imagine;-)

Game 2 was determined by Dread of Night and massive Discard followed by Shardless and Goyf.

Game 3 was super grindy but once again New Lilli had time to shine. My first plan to ult her didn't succed but she still helped to establish a strong board and got me back a Shardless Agent which turned around the corner.

2) Splinter Twin (Win):
Game 1 and 2 were quite similiar: I destroyed his hand and decayed any remaining creatures ("classic" MU from Modern I guess). It was basically an All-In-Twin without Chalices and Blood Moons Mainboard.

3) Elves (Draw):
We tested a bit on Friday and the MU seems to be terribad. Game 1 he flooded the board and managed to resolve a Packmaster that I couldn't handle.

Game 2 was quite interactive and I got to disturb him and finish his board off with a Golgari Charm.

Game 3 was also decided by a Golgari Charm which helped to clear off his board after keeping it in check with my other disruption. Due to time issues I wasn't able to finish him off.

4) DnT (Win):

Game 1 I was manascrewed (without any action taken by my opponent^^). Game 2 and 3 I stripped his hand and slowly filled the board. Engineered Plague and Dread of Night were Allstars again.

So after all, I strongly prefer the list with more Discard and Wastelands (although it seems that there is still room to crunch the numbers). I won nearly every match by destroying my opponents game plan and coming back with a Shardless Agent and/or a Visions. The New Lilli seems awesome - her removal can be very strong against certain (problematic?) decks and her -2 is strong as well - recycling an Agent is just crazy. Finally her ultimate could be a thing against grindy decks and Miracles (a friend of mine plays Aggro Loam and he ults her basically all night long^^). Due to Brainstorm/Library we also have some kind of card selection so a split seems reasonable. Thus we have an answer/out for every MU.

As far as the SB is concerned, I think I need to tune it against Combo (especially for an open field). Otherwise, I was happy to overload on sweepers - especially the permanent based ones seem pretty awesome (Dread of Night is not that narrow btw - it also helps against Miracles).

Regarding possible new inclusions, I will definitely try Baby Jace, he seems to fit into this deck perfectly. What about Snapcaster Mage?

Kind regards

C

[btm10]

Hey again!

Contrary to my expectations, I managed to play a small tournament today (20 players) and I finished 2nd with 3:0:1.

This was the list I played (it is basically Lukas Blohon's List as mentioned before):

//lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

//creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix

//sorceries
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Maelstrom Pulse

//instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

//planeswalker
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

The sideboard is still WIP and tuned for my local meta (a lot of Elves + Death and Taxes, more fair MUs than unfair ones, basically no Eldrazi).

Most notable modification: I sleeved up "new Lilli" as suggested by halahel, especially considering my meta.

1) DnT (Win):
Game 1 was pretty close as I had strong board control with New Lilli. Unfortunately he managed to equip a sword on an Eidolon of Rhetorics which wrecked me in every possible way as you can imagine;-)

Game 2 was determined by Dread of Night and massive Discard followed by Shardless and Goyf.

Game 3 was super grindy but once again New Lilli had time to shine. My first plan to ult her didn't succed but she still helped to establish a strong board and got me back a Shardless Agent which turned around the corner.

2) Splinter Twin (Win):
Game 1 and 2 were quite similiar: I destroyed his hand and decayed any remaining creatures ("classic" MU from Modern I guess). It was basically an All-In-Twin without Chalices and Blood Moons Mainboard.

3) Elves (Draw):
We tested a bit on Friday and the MU seems to be terribad. Game 1 he flooded the board and managed to resolve a Packmaster that I couldn't handle.

Game 2 was quite interactive and I got to disturb him and finish his board off with a Golgari Charm.

Game 3 was also decided by a Golgari Charm which helped to clear off his board after keeping it in check with my other disruption. Due to time issues I wasn't able to finish him off.

4) DnT (Win):

Game 1 I was manascrewed (without any action taken by my opponent^^). Game 2 and 3 I stripped his hand and slowly filled the board. Engineered Plague and Dread of Night were Allstars again.

So after all, I strongly prefer the list with more Discard and Wastelands (although it seems that there is still room to crunch the numbers). I won nearly every match by destroying my opponents game plan and coming back with a Shardless Agent and/or a Visions. The New Lilli seems awesome - her removal can be very strong against certain (problematic?) decks and her -2 is strong as well - recycling an Agent is just crazy. Finally her ultimate could be a thing against grindy decks and Miracles (a friend of mine plays Aggro Loam and he ults her basically all night long^^). Due to Brainstorm/Library we also have some kind of card selection so a split seems reasonable. Thus we have an answer/out for every MU.

As far as the SB is concerned, I think I need to tune it against Combo (especially for an open field). Otherwise, I was happy to overload on sweepers - especially the permanent based ones seem pretty awesome (Dread of Night is not that narrow btw - it also helps against Miracles).

Regarding possible new inclusions, I will definitely try Baby Jace, he seems to fit into this deck perfectly. What about Snapcaster Mage?

Kind regards

C

Elves is a pretty wretched matchup since they can grind almost as well as we can and we can't race them before the grind starts. I've also been on the 1/1 Liliana split and have been pretty happy with it. I've still found that 6 discard spells maindeck are overkill, but if you make it work, then more power to you.


I did very well with a stock(ish) list in the last two major tournaments I played early this summer, getting 2nd in a Super IQ and 14th at an SCG Classic. That being said, I agree that Shardless has stagnated and needs some tech. I have a couple insights to provide in support of your suggestions.

I've started running a 1/1 split of the two Lilianas. Last Hope seems really strong, especially against Death and Taxes. The -2 is also great with Strix and Shardless. I haven't had a chance to test extensively, but if there were a major tournament tomorrow, I would stick with the 1/1 split and run a couple edicts in the board. Along those lines:

I've also dropped big Jace in favor of baby Jace. I've played Shardless since 2014, and big Jace has always been something of a disappointment. He wins the rare match, but he much more often just sits in my hand, or gets mulliganed/brainstormed away. I went from 2 to 1 a long time ago, and never regretted it. Flashing back a hymn with baby Jace feels great, and since we're fairly light on removal, it's nice to get extra mileage there as well.

With dropping big Jace, I felt safe going from 22 to 21 land. Feels good so far.

I'm very curious about Nissa, Voice, and would love to see the list you're running her in. What did you drop for her?

Going to 21 lands just feels really greedy with 4 Wastelands. Are you running Ponder in addition to JVP, or are you going down to 3 Wasteland/0 Tar Pit?

I totally agree on the value of rebuying Strix and Agent with Liliana, the Last Hope. The list I ran with Nissa is basically the list I linked to above, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Nissa. My main hesitations with littlest, babiest Jace are that he's slow despite being cheap and that he makes the deck more vulnerable to Rest in Peace than it already is.

EDIT: Rudy Briksza 5-0'ed a MODO Leage with a list (mtgtop8.com/event?e=13614&d=280139&f=LE) with 3 Grim Flayer, 5 Planeswalkers, and 21 land. I like that the list has extra bodies, but I'm less sold on the low land count, no Ponder, 2 JtMS, and being stone cold to combo game 1 (and having a lackluster sideboard plan to boot). Thoughts?

[MorphBerlin]

Hey again!

Contrary to my expectations, I managed to play a small tournament today (20 players) and I finished 2nd with 3:0:1.

This was the list I played (it is basically Lukas Blohon's List as mentioned before):

//lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

//creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix

//sorceries
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Maelstrom Pulse

//instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

//planeswalker
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

The sideboard is still WIP and tuned for my local meta (a lot of Elves + Death and Taxes, more fair MUs than unfair ones, basically no Eldrazi).

Normally I play without the MD Thoughtseizes but I would like to give this list a try since I am going to eternal weekend in october and I think the MD discard is better in an open big tournament meta (blohon is a much better magic player then me and he must have had a reason to run this after all).

I just copied your list and will jam some rounds on cockatrice. I did make 2 changes allready though, first I changed the Jace in the SB with a Garruk because I don't see any MU where I will board in the PW where Garruk is not better. Especially Miracles. I also changed the 2nd duress to the 4th hymn, because I think 4 1 Mana Discard after boarding is enough against combo. And we can still bring in the hymn and use it agaisnt miracles as well.

I think new lili is worse then good old LotV but I will try. There is so much stuff she does't hit that makes her high variance in my mind.
I don't relly see the need for the loam in the sb which are the MU you are bringing it in? We have 0 SB GY hate now and I don't know if we can afford that.

[halahel]

Elves is a pretty wretched matchup since they can grind almost as well as we can and we can't race them before the grind starts. I've also been on the 1/1 Liliana split and have been pretty happy with it. I've still found that 6 discard spells maindeck are overkill, but if you make it work, then more power to you.



Going to 21 lands just feels really greedy with 4 Wastelands. Are you running Ponder in addition to JVP, or are you going down to 3 Wasteland/0 Tar Pit?

I totally agree on the value of rebuying Strix and Agent with Liliana, the Last Hope. The list I ran with Nissa is basically the list I linked to above, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Nissa. My main hesitations with littlest, babiest Jace are that he's slow despite being cheap and that he makes the deck more vulnerable to Rest in Peace than it already is.

EDIT: Rudy Briksza 5-0'ed a MODO Leage with a list (mtgtop8.com/event?e=13614&d=280139&f=LE) with 3 Grim Flayer, 5 Planeswalkers, and 21 land. I like that the list has extra bodies, but I'm less sold on the low land count, no Ponder, 2 JtMS, and being stone cold to combo game 1 (and having a lackluster sideboard plan to boot). Thoughts?

I agree that four wastelands is way too greedy with 21 lands. I only run three wastelands. I went from four to three awhile back, when I was still running 22 lands, to add a second basic. I got tired of getting locked out from Loam/Waste, and getting stuck with wastelands against Miracles or Burn. Your concerns about baby Jace are definitely viable; I'm not totally sold on him, just trying him out because I've never been blown away by big Jace in Shardless.

I saw the 3 Flayer list today, and think that this is definitely the direction the deck needs to go. Flayer does so much: delirium is easy to hit with 6-7 artifact creatures, he gives us another efficient beater, he's cascadable, and he lets us stack our cascades. If you have either baby Jace or Last Hope online, you can pitch stuff to the Flayer trigger and cast it that turn for some easy card advantage.

All that said, I don't think Rudy's list is ideal; 2 big Jaces with 21 lands just doesn't seem right, and I like 9 fetches over 8. I also want another Hymn, since 90% of the time, that's the card I want to re-cast with baby Jace. Here's what I'm going to try out:

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Baleful Strix
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
3 Grim Flayer
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Shardless Agent
1 Swamp
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

[MorphBerlin]

Been jaming this Build (almost) from scry me a river on cockatrice:

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Baleful Strix
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Shardless Agent
1 Swamp
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Dismember
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Life from the Loam

Deck is really performing really well:

http://www.imgur.com/1TIUZk6

Some card choices are still debateble for me. Not sure about new Lilli I think she is higher variance whereas LotV is always decent (Combo, Miracles are the main reason I tend to swith back to 2 LotV).

I would also like to put 1 Deluge and/or the 4th Vision in the main but don#t see any space atm (maybe Dismember for Deluge)

Also I am not really sold on CLique and Life from the loam in the SB, I think Null rod will go in for one of them.

[Krimson Viper]

Against D&T, what do you name with Engineered Plague?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Against D&T, what do you name with Engineered Plague?
I'm pretty sure you name human.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[hoernchen]

Is anyone of you playing Leovold? I really like this card, I think it is really strong and want to include it into my build.

[grim confident]

Is anyone of you playing Leovold? I really like this card, I think it is really strong and want to include it into my build.

In my opinion, if not turn 2 playing Leovold, it is not strong enough.

Put 1 Leovold in sideboard is a good idea maybe?

[Hrothgar]

Leovold is great in this meta.
I try +1 Leovold -1 Force of Will for now.
Vs Death and Taxes is great because Rishadan Port, Plow, Manger, Flicker, Fire/Ice, Umezawa needs a target.
In add to this, Karakas need to choose (after targeting obv) among Thalia and Leovold, opening some opportunity to kill Thalia if he bounce our Leovold.

[MorphBerlin]

Leovold is great in this meta.
I try +1 Leovold -1 Force of Will for now.
Vs Death and Taxes is great because Rishadan Port, Plow, Manger, Flicker, Fire/Ice, Umezawa needs a target.
In add to this, Karakas need to choose (after targeting obv) among Thalia and Leovold, opening some opportunity to kill Thalia if he bounce our Leovold.

Disagree, I don't see a space for him in this deck. Your scenario sounds like magical christmisland. Most of the time he will eat a plow from d&t then we are up 1 card for 3 Mana. But maybe they just ignore him because they don't draw actual extra cards (only SofFI). GEtting to UBG is also not the easiest part and slow.

Against miracles they have terminus which does't target and Plow.

I think you would have to play him in a BUG shell without Shardlesss agent but with ponders, snapscaster and so on.

[Sigi85]

I quote MorphBerlin, on paper Leovold do a lot of interesting things,but it is not adequate to the shardless build, you have too many 3 drops with Liliana,Agent and Deluge.
As sideboard option i test for a bit the new card Lost Legacy , but is too slow against combo, is Always better to play counter such Invasive Surgery and Flusterstorm, that combined with discards are the better way to play against Combo.

[grim confident]

Disagree, I don't see a space for him in this deck. Your scenario sounds like magical christmisland. Most of the time he will eat a plow from d&t then we are up 1 card for 3 Mana. But maybe they just ignore him because they don't draw actual extra cards (only SofFI). GEtting to UBG is also not the easiest part and slow.

Against miracles they have terminus which does't target and Plow.

I think you would have to play him in a BUG shell without Shardlesss agent but with ponders, snapscaster and so on.

I agree with you. Leovold is a good card,but for shardless is not good.

put it into bug delver is better than shardless maybe?

[Hrothgar]

Mi previous post is about the general value of Leovold as card.
In this days i play with Leovold in my 60 because i love to test new cards and interactions.
Imho Leovold need 2x slot for a right build that will maximize his value and maybe in Shardless some cards like Grim Flayer is better (anyway another try).


I agree with you. Leovold is a good card,but for shardless is not good.

put it into bug delver is better than shardless maybe?



I try a new deck with 2x Leovold.
A Midrange BUG, without Delver.
I will post my results.

[btm10]

Disagree, I don't see a space for him in this deck. Your scenario sounds like magical christmisland. Most of the time he will eat a plow from d&t then we are up 1 card for 3 Mana. But maybe they just ignore him because they don't draw actual extra cards (only SofFI). GEtting to UBG is also not the easiest part and slow.

Against miracles they have terminus which does't target and Plow.

I think you would have to play him in a BUG shell without Shardlesss agent but with ponders, snapscaster and so on.

Yeah, I don't think Shardless wants another hard-to-cast three drop. Maybe as a 1-2 of in BUG Control/Midrange.


Been jaming this Build (almost) from scry me a river on cockatrice:

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Baleful Strix
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Shardless Agent
1 Swamp
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Dismember
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Life from the Loam

Deck is really performing really well:

http://www.imgur.com/1TIUZk6

Some card choices are still debateble for me. Not sure about new Lilli I think she is higher variance whereas LotV is always decent (Combo, Miracles are the main reason I tend to swith back to 2 LotV).

I would also like to put 1 Deluge and/or the 4th Vision in the main but don#t see any space atm (maybe Dismember for Deluge)

Also I am not really sold on CLique and Life from the loam in the SB, I think Null rod will go in for one of them.

It looks like you've opted to skew toward beating combo with this list, but I'm still quite skeptical of 6 MD discard spells since combo isn't that large a portion of the meta, at least not at high-level events, and it seems like hour fair matchups suffered a bit (admittedly a small sample size). I'm surprised that you think Liliana of the Veil is the better Liliana against Miracles; I'd much rather have more discard spells + The Last Hope in that matchup. I also think that Crucible is just better than Loam if you're looking for that effect.

I tried Grim Flayer and wasn't impressed. I think he's marginally better than Quirion Dryad and marginally worse than Scavenging Ooze and Tombstalker as big dummies 5+, but he's worse than Ponder and the second is probably worse than the third Strix.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I also think that Crucible is just better than Loam if you're looking for that effect.

...

I tried Grim Flayer and wasn't impressed. I think he's marginally better than Quirion Dryad and marginally worse than Scavenging Ooze and Tombstalker as big dummies 5+, but he's worse than Ponder and the second is probably worse than the third Strix.

Why do you think Crucible is better than LftL? Is it because you can't accidentally cascade into it? I ask because I don't play crucible because there is quite a few Decays running around my meta and I don't think that is so great. If you have an argument supporting a reason why you think it's still more playable, I'd enjoy listening to your point of view.

I'm also quite curious as to how Flayer wasn't satisfactory. I've been building DnT (finished now) and will come back to this list, but I haven't had the opportunity to pick up Flayers as I don't have the time to play or test with this deck (I love DnT), nor have I picked up the Lilianas. I was really hoping Flayer would be a good way to set up a cascade that wasn't as much of an investment in mana as Jace, and that would lend itself to a more aggressive style overall. I do think more beaters are becoming a necessary part of big lists in general because at Ovino there were 3 Miracles lists in t8, and all were playing Spell Snares. Seems like a big deal to me.

For the past few weeks I've been trying out BUGStill with 3 and 4 Leovold. He's good and worth picking up, but I'm unsure that he's what you want to be playing at the moment. I don't think I can say he isn't good right now, but I think I'm comfortable saying the deck he's best in isn't one we've seen him in yet.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[btm10]

Why do you think Crucible is better than LftL? Is it because you can't accidentally cascade into it? I ask because I don't play crucible because there is quite a few Decays running around my meta and I don't think that is so great. If you have an argument supporting a reason why you think it's still more playable, I'd enjoy listening to your point of view.

Part of it is that (like you said) Loam is a stop for Cascades and it's pretty low-impact in tight game states. We don't have a recursion engine, so the milling isn't free the way it is in dedicated Loam decks, and while synergy with Brainstorm, Ponder, and Sylvan Library is a positive for Loam, recurring fetchlands with Crucible has the same effect for only a one-time investment, unlike Loam which has to be recast every time you want to use it. If you recur a single land with Crucible and then it gets Decayed, you still 2-for-1'ed your opponent and still advanced your game plan either by getting back a creature land or Wasteland in the mid-to-late game or by making sure you hit your third, fourth, or fifth land drop in the early-to-mid game. I've actually liked it so much that I've started toying with replacing the fourth Wasteland with a Mishra's Factory so I have a hard to kill threat.



I'm also quite curious as to how Flayer wasn't satisfactory. I've been building DnT (finished now) and will come back to this list, but I haven't had the opportunity to pick up Flayers as I don't have the time to play or test with this deck (I love DnT), nor have I picked up the Lilianas. I was really hoping Flayer would be a good way to set up a cascade that wasn't as much of an investment in mana as Jace, and that would lend itself to a more aggressive style overall. I do think more beaters are becoming a necessary part of big lists in general because at Ovino there were 3 Miracles lists in t8, and all were playing Spell Snares. Seems like a big deal to me.


According to MTG Top 8, only one of the 3rd/4th place lists was playing Snares. Also, people playing Snares is an argument against Flayer, not for it.

More substantively, while Flayer sets up your Cascades (which is pretty overrated as far as I'm concerned), he's also, at best, a conditional 4/4 with upside. I don't think he's indefensible, but he does push the deck towards being in more of a beatdown role, and once you've assigned that role to yourself you're better off playing a more aggressive deck. Trading with Thought-Knot and being smaller than Gurmag Angler are big strikes against it. I don't even think he's substantially better than Vendilion Clique (which is typically a sideboard card) or Courser of Kruphix (which is rarely run) If you're concerned about having enough giant bodies, I've been a strong advocate for Tombstalker for like the past 6 months.

[scry_me_a_river]

Hey again!

Unfortunately I didn't get to play Legacy this week, but at least there is some action going on in this thread^^


Normally I play without the MD Thoughtseizes but I would like to give this list a try since I am going to eternal weekend in october and I think the MD discard is better in an open big tournament meta (blohon is a much better magic player then me and he must have had a reason to run this after all).

I just copied your list and will jam some rounds on cockatrice. I did make 2 changes allready though, first I changed the Jace in the SB with a Garruk because I don't see any MU where I will board in the PW where Garruk is not better. Especially Miracles. I also changed the 2nd duress to the 4th hymn, because I think 4 1 Mana Discard after boarding is enough against combo. And we can still bring in the hymn and use it agaisnt miracles as well.

I think new lili is worse then good old LotV but I will try. There is so much stuff she does't hit that makes her high variance in my mind.
I don't relly see the need for the loam in the sb which are the MU you are bringing it in? We have 0 SB GY hate now and I don't know if we can afford that.

Nice, I'm glad you are experimenting with this list as well. Do you mind posting some of your games in detail? Maybe we can share some more experiences.

Besides, I agree with you: Garruk seems to be a better choice atm as he can't be pyroblasted and is much easier to cast as far as his colour requirements are concerned. He is also a powerhous against miracles (I played Aggro Loam before and he was always overperforming) and very strong in grindy MUs where board presence tends to be a key factor.

I will also play a fourth hymn in the future - it is a really great card, not only in unfair MUs but also against Miracles and other fair decks (and maybe even Eldrazi).

The lack of graveyard hate is definitely a problem. Thus I really like the Brainstorm Show's approach to include 4 Leylines. I have to admit though that I'm not sure if we can/should afford to dedicate that many slots. What have been your experiences/choices so far?

Last but not least: I tried New Lil in Aggro Loam and I was not impressed at all in the beginning. But the more I played her, the more I got to like her. Her +1 is basically never useless (worst case: shrink an Eldrazi or an opposing Goyf) and her -2 is just crazy. Recycling your value creatures is very nice, especially as we have no use for our graveyards except for DRS and Goyf. This seems to be another route of card advantage/ressources. Finally, her ult can be backbreaking in any grindy MU (and also against Miracles as btm10 mentioned!). I will definitely continue to run a split as Old Lil has useful applications too, but I don't think that there is a strictly "better" Lil at the moment.


Deck is really performing really well:

Some card choices are still debateble for me. Not sure about new Lilli I think she is higher variance whereas LotV is always decent (Combo, Miracles are the main reason I tend to swith back to 2 LotV).

I would also like to put 1 Deluge and/or the 4th Vision in the main but don't see any space atm (maybe Dismember for Deluge)

Also I am not really sold on CLique and Life from the loam in the SB, I think Null rod will go in for one of them.


Once again, I can totally understand your doubts with New Lil, but I still think that she could be a potentail powerhouse for this deck. As we have quite a number of discard spells in our build (which would be my main argument for Old Lil - at least as long as True Name Decks are out of fashion), I think we can afford to play her. Additionally, she is quite good with handling tokens and other swarm stuff which seems to be a problem for Shardless BUG.

Why do you want to play another Vision? Did you miss the fourth copy? I'm not sure either about the "correct" number...

This would be my "new" SB btw:
SB: 2 Disfigure #DNT, Elves, Delver...
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte #DNT, Elves, Delver, Burn, some Grindy MU
SB: 1 Dread of Night #DNT, Miracles
SB: 1 Engineered Plague #DNT, Elves, Miracles, Grixis Delver
SB: 1 Golgari Charm #DNT, Elves, Miracles, Grixis Delver
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge #DNT, Elves, Eldrazi
SB: 1 Pithing Needle #DNT, Miracles, Combo
SB: 1 Duress #Combo
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach #Miracles, Combo
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique #Combo
SB: 1 Baleful Strix #Eldrazi, Delver
SB: 1 Sylvan Library #Grindy MUs (mirror, Jund...)
SB: 1 Life from the Loam #DNT, Delver, Grindy MUs
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless #Miracles, Grindy MUs

I need to test Clique but I think she might be important against Combo decks (instant speed threat and disruption) as a back up for our strong discard.

As a Jund/Aggro Loam player I just love Life from the Loam. It is a very strong card in any Delver MU (defensive and offensive) and it can be a great tool for any grindy midrange mirror as it opens up another angle of attack with land destruction. I think I will keep testing it some more time.

After all, the graveyard hate seems to be the biggest problem atm...


Yeah, I don't think Shardless wants another hard-to-cast three drop. Maybe as a 1-2 of in BUG Control/Midrange.

It looks like you've opted to skew toward beating combo with this list, but I'm still quite skeptical of 6 MD discard spells since combo isn't that large a portion of the meta, at least not at high-level events, and it seems like hour fair matchups suffered a bit (admittedly a small sample size). I'm surprised that you think Liliana of the Veil is the better Liliana against Miracles; I'd much rather have more discard spells + The Last Hope in that matchup. I also think that Crucible is just better than Loam if you're looking for that effect.

I tried Grim Flayer and wasn't impressed. I think he's marginally better than Quirion Dryad and marginally worse than Scavenging Ooze and Tombstalker as big dummies 5+, but he's worse than Ponder and the second is probably worse than the third Strix.

I agree with your opinion on New Lil in the Miracles MU. But I also think that discard spells (especially the Hymns) are not restricted to the Combo MUs. It is doing some serious work in the fair MUs and also against Miracles.

Honestly I have never thought about the Crucible, but it is an interesting idea. Maybe another argument for Loam (besides being Decay-proof) could be the inclusion of New Lil and the resulting synergy.

Finally I also think that the Flayer discussion should be intensified. What would be the best shell with Flayer (yes, as you can imagine, I think about New Lil^^)?

Kind regards,

C

[minyafriend]

hey all ive been playtesting quite a bit lately against death and taxes and their variants and have found taking my 2 liliana of the veil out and keeping the md 2 hymn in to be quite good. lili doesnt overperform here except really when played on turn 2 it seems. the only problem i see with hymn in the particular matchup is it makes you fetch awkwardly sometimes and it doesnt play to the board but with the inclusion of recruiter now plus the standard tutored equipment it seems like getting stuff out of their hand is a bit stronger. what do you think? i keep lilis against maverick and board all hymns out here though.

current sideboard plan for d+t:
-4 force, -2 liliana of the veil
+1 toxic, +1 golgari charm, +1 disfigure, +1 pithing needle, +1 murderous cut, +1 maelstrom pulse

plan for maverick:
-4 force, -2 hymn, on the play -1 strix
+1 toxic, +1 golgari charm, +1 disfigure, +1 pithing needle, +1 murderous cut, +1 maelstrom pulse, on the play +1 grafdiggers cage
any opinion on the grafdiggers cage against maverick? does it do enough?

my current deck list:
https://manastack.com/deck/shardless-bug-4

[chark9999]

hey guys，what do you think about grim flayer？can these bg 4/4 with trample replace goyf in bug shardless？
Certainly，it is most of the time not as big as goyf，but it can not only get across the TNN or tokens，but also give you a free sensei's divining top's ablility，when it does combat damage to player. That means more chance to find an anwser，like decay or something else，or even vision mit shardless agent.

[Whitefaces]

hey guys，what do you think about grim flayer？can these bg 4/4 with trample replace goyf in bug shardless？
Certainly，it is most of the time not as big as goyf，but it can not only get across the TNN or tokens，but also give you a free sensei's divining top's ablility，when it does combat damage to player. That means more chance to find an anwser，like decay or something else，or even vision mit shardless agent.

He may be OK, but it can't replace Goyf. Thanks to Agents and Strix goyf is quite easily a 5/6 which is key to beating Eldrazi and Gurmag Anglers.

[MorphBerlin]

It looks like you've opted to skew toward beating combo with this list, but I'm still quite skeptical of 6 MD discard spells since combo isn't that large a portion of the meta, at least not at high-level events, and it seems like hour fair matchups suffered a bit (admittedly a small sample size). I'm surprised that you think Liliana of the Veil is the better Liliana against Miracles; I'd much rather have more discard spells + The Last Hope in that matchup. I also think that Crucible is just better than Loam if you're looking for that effect.



Well, the Resulsts are not very telling yet (the delver Match was just too quick free wins for him).
I's not like the 3 aditional Seizes are only working against combo. I took a Goose and a goyf with turn 1+2 TS against RUG for example, which gave me the game easily. I like that it lowers our curve significantly by giving us something to do on Turn 1 consistently (turn 1 suspending vision is not the most impressing play to me). I feel like most games with this deck are lost to falling too far behind early and allways starting 0-1 against combo. Because TS helps alot with this I will stick to this Version for now. (I have played the other version for so long now, I just want a large enough sample size to compare).

Ok I will keep on trying new lili. I would be happy if I can replace one of the LotV because then I would have to spenn 700$ less for the jap foil one :laugh: So agaisnt miricles - do you try to ULT her as quickly as possible or do you try to keep reucirring threats from the GY (allthough our creatures rarely end there more in our library and in exile)



Nice, I'm glad you are experimenting with this list as well. Do you mind posting some of your games in detail? Maybe we can share some more experiences.

The lack of graveyard hate is definitely a problem. Thus I really like the Brainstorm Show's approach to include 4 Leylines. I have to admit though that I'm not sure if we can/should afford to dedicate that many slots. What have been your experiences/choices so far?


Why do you want to play another Vision? Did you miss the fourth copy? I'm not sure either about the "correct" number...

This would be my "new" SB btw:
SB: 2 Disfigure #DNT, Elves, Delver...
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte #DNT, Elves, Delver, Burn, some Grindy MU
SB: 1 Dread of Night #DNT, Miracles
SB: 1 Engineered Plague #DNT, Elves, Miracles, Grixis Delver
SB: 1 Golgari Charm #DNT, Elves, Miracles, Grixis Delver
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge #DNT, Elves, Eldrazi
SB: 1 Pithing Needle #DNT, Miracles, Combo
SB: 1 Duress #Combo
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach #Miracles, Combo
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique #Combo
SB: 1 Baleful Strix #Eldrazi, Delver
SB: 1 Sylvan Library #Grindy MUs (mirror, Jund...)
SB: 1 Life from the Loam #DNT, Delver, Grindy MUs
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless #Miracles, Grindy MUs

I need to test Clique but I think she might be important against Combo decks (instant speed threat and disruption) as a back up for our strong discard.



Sorry can't give much details on the games, exept that I felt quite good agaisnt combo with the Discard. Thoughtseize was pretty ok to good in the fair MU as well, as I described above.

I don't think we can afford to use 4 SB slots on leylines. There isn't even that much decks running around where you would need it right? I think Cage, Spellbomb and Surgical are the best options atm.

As I said, I will keep on trying new Lili. She was defenitly good against creature decks. The decks that are light on creatures are my problem (combo, miracles)

I miss the 4th vision because cascading into vision is still the reason we play this deck afer all. And I don#t know about others but I cas my agents blind pretty liberaly. But maybe it's correct to play 3, I don't se any card to cut at the moment anyway.

My current plan is to switch the Maindeck Dismember with the SB Deluge. Just because we can catch up if we fall behind to much and also people don't play around it in G1 as much.

For the SB I have found the Clique and Loam to be the weakest cards. But i will keep on using it until I have enoguh matches under my belt to come to a conclusion. I would like to put in Null Rod (because I want a 2nd card to shut down STD and it's also good against ANT and random artifact decks) and 2 gy hate cards... 15 cards just isn't enough :cry:

[btm10]

I haven't been able to play much lately, but I did finally get a chance to try out more MD discard in a couple of matches (both online and in paper) yesterday. My (preliminary) thoughts in no particular order:

1. The sorcery count feels about right with a 3/3 Hymn/Thoughtseize split.

2. Moving the discard back to the maindeck opens up those sideboard slots. I started with 3 Thoughtseize in the sideboard, so I got to add a third piece of graveyard hate, the Jitte from the maindeck, and a long-game flex slot (Crucible/Sylvan Library/Jace/etc).

3. With so much discard, having additional cantrips or filtering seems even more important than before, and I'm not super comfortable with only 19 blue cards. I'm going to go down to 5 discard effects with the 1-of Ponder as a first pass, but having a 1-of Jace might be ok as well. I'm still iffy on maindecking Sylvan Library.

4. Thoughtseize makes Jace, the Mind Sculptor more attractive. Not only is Jace a Brainstorm every turn to prevent flooding on discard, but knowing what our opponent has seen or has access to means that it's much less likely to get hit with a Pyroblast on the stack

I've also messed around a bit with the manabase, but that's a topic for another post.