Miracles running rampant?

[lordofthepit]

Is Miracles now the clear deck to beat in the format, both in regards to sheer number and power level?

Of the 48 Legacy decks listed at the SCG Invitational, 18 of them are Miracle decks, although some of them scrubbed out (I consider any blue deck that runs Terminus to be a Miracle deck, although some are Stoneblade hybrids). Three of the decks that make top 8 are Miracles or a Miracle-hybrid, although it should be noted that the Swiss format was half Standard. Three of the 7 decks that went 6-1-1 or better in the Legacy portion of Swiss were Miracles or a Miracle-hybrid. (On the other hand, according to the Invitational Metagame breakdown, RUG represented 20% of the metagame, with Countertop and Stoneblade representing 16% and 11%, respectively, of which most of not all were probably Miracle decks, so perhaps those numbers above overstate the representation.)

At the recent events held at my local gaming store (Card Kingdom), at least 30% of the field (including myself) was playing Miracles or Miracle Blade.

This represents a much higher proportion of the field (~30%) than any deck I've ever seen, including Survival, RUG, or Maverick--probably twice as much, in fact. While I respect the deck as being skill-intensive and relatively "fair" (by Legacy standards), I was wondering why no one complained about this deck. I absolutely hate rounds going to time and I hate playing the mirror. I might just switch to a deck that crushes Miracles that doesn't flat out lose to the rest of the field (combo).

Does anyone else feel this way? Granted, I will admit I'm a bit biased because I'm not a control player at heart, but I'm playing this deck only because I perceive it to be the best in the format.

Edit: Disclaimer, nothing needs to be banned, blah blah. I will stop whining, get better, etc. I'm just asking about why no one recognizes this as the clear deck to beat in Legacy right now.

[JDK]

The deck just lets you get away with mistakes more easily than other ones (thanks to the miracle mechanic, a high amount of removal and the lock-combo), which is why it sees so much play. It's a strong deck, but most of the times I just get annoyed by idiots using SDT improperly and stalling the game.

Sure, it gets significantly stronger with skill (like almost every deck), but it's like the SnT deck of control.

[DLifshitz]

I was wondering why no one complained about this deck.

It's relatively new, so people won't have had time to get bored with it. It's not particularly frustrating to play against, either. I'm sure it has some bad matchups (Gobs? Merfolk?), perhaps some people who play the deck can shed light on that.

As of today, blue-based control has been forced out of Standard and Modern almost completely, so I think it can be forgiven for being one of the strongest decks in Legacy.

[Fizzeler]

To be fair Control currently does well against a good amount of the field (Save Omni-Tell), I have no problems with Miracles as a guy who plays Prison Decks I would be more than happy to see Control resurge in Legacy

[JDK]

It's not particularly frustrating to play against, either.
:confused:

What's NOT frustrating about playing against miracles, Counterbalance and SDT?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

UW Miracles definitely is one of the best decks in the format, not the best deck, mind you, but a top choice. I think the comparatively high representation is due to a number of factors:

- novelty value: The deck is relatively new, meaning people are curious to try it out.
- recent success: The deck has started to perform well on the SCG circuit during the last month (it also has been putting up numbers over here for a while) and people want to get a feel for the new kid on the block. Flavor of the month and all that.
- unadapted metagame: The fact that it's new also means most people haven't figured out correct boarding plans yet (see for example Todd Anderson's RUG SB for one that is definitely ready for UW) or simply haven't adapted sideboards yet, making the deck a better choice.
- skillset exploitation: let's face it, many Legacy players are pretty bad at playing against Wrath-variants (understandably so, given that there hasn't been a playable Wrath in Legacy for years), which means being able to have one at a relevant cost is particularly impressive for the moment (until people learn how you beat Wraths again).
- Player bias the first: There are a lot of people that love playing blue-based hard control (like me, for example) that simply didn't have a a good choice among the tier decks (instead of a sweet personal brew) and therefore chose to forgo playing control. Now that there is an actual tier one control deck (for the first time since Mental Misstep, and even then it wasn't as obvious, what with all the Stoneforges of that era), those players can finally run that kind of deck again - and do.
- Player bias, the second: Same as above, just substitute blue-based hard control with Counterbalance.
- Maverick: This is the best blue-based deck against Maverick by a significant margin and a lot of people that refuse to play S&T (not liking combo or disliking the simplistic feel) are still sick of losing to the GW midrange deck.

As for bad matchups, Goblins is a horrible horrible deck to play Miracles against - probably one of the reasons that deck is also on the rise currently (that and the dearth of storm combo).


What's NOT frustrating about playing against miracles, Counterbalance and SDT?
You don't have to deal with dumb undercosted threats like Delver, Geist, SFM and Goyf or stupid overpowered fatties like Emrakul and Griselb? Give me a nice spell-based control-grind any day =p

[Fizzeler]

The only thing frustration about SDT Counterbalance is watching people in a Mirror Match, no this is legitimately one of the most interactive yet boring mirrors to watch

Granted I still love watching the Miracles Vs Lands match and see how long game 1 takes (happened today, they shuffled up with 7 minutes left on the clock, but for the most part literally nothing happens for about 15 turns)

Goblins has also reappeared recently thanks to Cavern Of Souls and the resurge of control it has good match-ups against many non-combo decks, if the meta shifts to Miracles maybe we will see Dredge pop up more often

[JDK]

"The lesser evil, imo" doesn't diminish the frustration of getting "miracled" (maybe "witnessing a miracle" should be the correct term from now on) or locked out. This doesn't even include the frustration of being forced to a draw or time, because they cannot find their Angel dumping finisher (screw you, lock decks).

Also, if you don't want to face "stupid overpowered fatties", you shouldn't promote SnT lists. ;)

[Lord Seth]

I think it's amusing that the Miracle card everyone was freaking out about (Temporal Mastery) is a nonentity whereas the Miracle cards people were largely ignoring at first are the ones that are actually having an impact.

[Hardcore]

Probably because an extra turn won't Win you the game in legacy (as opposed to vintage)?

[JDK]

I think it's amusing that the Miracle card everyone was freaking out about (Temporal Mastery) is a nonentity whereas the Miracle cards people were largely ignoring at first are the ones that are actually having an impact.

You are mistaking "everyone" for "DragoFireheart (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23527-TimeWalk-2.0-Stillbirth&p=632203#post632203)". :wink:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think it's amusing that the Miracle card everyone was freaking out about (Temporal Mastery) is a nonentity whereas the Miracle cards people were largely ignoring at first are the ones that are actually having an impact.

Ahem;



That's... insanely good. Terribly ironically superior in pretty much every way except pitching to Force of Will to Temporal Mastery in Blade Control decks.

[Lord Seth]

You are mistaking "everyone" for "DragoFireheart (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23527-TimeWalk-2.0-Stillbirth&p=632203#post632203)". :wink:Okay, obviously I wasn't being literal with "everyone." But it was definitely the miracle card that was getting the most hype and causing the most panic by far (and I'm not solely talking about The Source), whereas the others seemed to mostly be ignored at first.

[Lemnear]

I think it's amusing that the Miracle card everyone was freaking out about (Temporal Mastery) is a nonentity whereas the Miracle cards people were largely ignoring at first are the ones that are actually having an impact.

Check the threads of the subjects before talking: A Lot of people evaluated the impact of both cards correct (entreat is another one discussed as a throwback to DoJ).

I was arguing with S. Menendian about the impact of an extra Turn in Vintage vs. Legacy stating that temporal Mastery will likely doing less damage than casting a Lightning Bolt within all it's conditional lackluster.

During Spoiler Season a Lot of People Talk Big about cards that will Never see sleeves. Calling People out who are simply just excited about a New product isn't cool because it's the nature of man. Same with new iPhones, New movies, games etc. Which are advertised and People camp in Front of stores for days just to have the NEW product Day 1 because IT EXCITES THEM


Survival of the fittest was way more dominant. In the last few months of it being legal, Survival decks were at least 50% of the starcity top 8s. The last local tournament in that time was kind of hilarious - 14 out of 26 people had Survival of the Fittest in their deck. You know something is wrong when a third of the field have Wispmare in their main deck.

Again a survival discussion? If People played wispmare as MD Solution I finally know WHY survival was able to become the DtB back then.

Playing bad "solutions" and then spam Legacy forums with QQ seem a logic consequence /rant

(This is Not adressing you Nilla in Case you might feel so because of the quote. The Part bout the wispmares is hilarious. Thx for sharing)

[sdematt]

I think Miracles is by far a really good choice right now, mostly because people have no idea how to actually attack the deck. They think their sideboard plan of running some Disenchants or Spell Pierces will do enough work, but it doesn't. I wrote something in the Rock thread that was a somewhat relevant analysis of Miracles, but from attacking it using GWB Rock. Still might be worth reading for some maybe?


So, 3 hours of Miracles grinding later, I'm back with meaningful results and paraphrasing of discussions I had with Nixon, a level 2 Judge and the best Miracles player locally.

We talked over a few different issues, mainly why I was losing. He joked about playing a garbage deck with 1 for 1's with answers and no way to dig for them, leading to many times when we'll die with the wrong answer in hand. While this might be slightly true in that we are a reactive deck with a lower count of card manipulation, I don't think be truly even against the field is necessarily a bad thing.

So, we discussed sideboards, maindeck configurations, swapping in and out, card selection, etc. The first conclusion we came to is Rock never has to lose to Miracles, ever. You can construct Junk in such a way that you will win the Miracles matchup way more often than not. However, you'd have to sacrifice so many matchups to do this, it may not be worth it. Point taken, and I have said this before. It's all about finding a middle ground where you're still doing well against the field.

We discussed Hymn over Inquisition, and we came up with the fact that in the main, you want Inquisition all day everyday. Why? Firstly, if you're on the play, you immediately Thoughtseize to take Top. Every game I won consisted of me nuking Top in some fashion, whereas the games I lost usually went into Topdeck mode with me having nothing, and him having nothing and a Top. Top/Library manipulation really controls how this matchup goes. Sylvan Library is also REALLY good here, and the same with Dark Confidant. The Miracles player has a touch time interacting on the Stack without Counterbalance, and Top just filters all the good things for better board and stack interaction. They MUST kill Dark Confidant immediately of face losing to not only beatdown, but you wrecking them with great answers.

You want Inquisition to take Top, Counterbalance, or another relevant card like EE/Shackles. Hymn, while in his words, "a very decent card against us," doesn't do enough to necessarily warrant its inclusion in the maindeck in a meta with a ton of RUG in it as well. You want the targeted discard to take the things you want, not strip a land + Land Tax or something like that.

Abrupt Decay should take over more slots was another conclusion. Abrupt Decay was ridiculously effective, taking out Counterbalances, Shackles, EE, Delvers, Goyfs, Cliques, and Equipment/Sylvan Libraries. It was highly effective against Counterbalance and I loved seeing it all day. The relevancy of uncounterable, instant speed Vindicate was incredibly relevant.

For now, I'm moving to 3 Decay 2 Pulse, since again, "Why is this a question? A 3-mana do nothing or a conditional, uncounterable 2-mana do something?" Now while this statement is a bit hyperbolic, the choice does makes sense. We have other ways to interact with Jace and Batterskull, so 2 Pulse is still fine since instant and uncounterable makes up for the shortfalls of 3-CMC or less.

Back to the Miracles matchup. We agreed that we need to attack on a plane not tangential to creature combat. Creatures are good, but laying 1-2 out at a time and applying pressure is easily the best answer when playing against 1-CMC Wrath effects. That's also how I won my games: apply enough pressure that there's a clock, but not enough to get blown out.

Discard, while good, isn't the end-all-be-all in this matchup. You can't assume you win because you play Discard, it just helps you out a bit, and doesn't stop anyone from Topping into the goodness.

As for the Surgical Extraction argument, again we came to the same conclusions - the plan in itself isn't inherently awful, it's just depends how you're achieving it. If you're boarding out 10 cards with nothing more to bring in except Surgicals, it's probably fine. If you're cutting relevant cards for Extirpate effects, you're going to have a problem. There's no real card advantage generated from Surgical Extraction. It's a strict 1-for-1 at the moment, and doesn't really provide virtual card advantage either. There isn't a Moat negating a bunch of Goblins, therefore providing virtual card advantage by making them less than optimal. This is basically nebulous card advantage where you hope to avoid seeing additional copies of that card in the future. This isn't a combo deck we're playing against. But again, if you're bringing out useless cards and bringing in Surgicals, it's not bad at all, but not NOT remove good cards to bring Surgical in, since it just isn't enough. I'm bringing out 6 slots to bring 6 in for my board, and there's no Surgicals coming in. There's some value in mucking Snapcaster, but not enough in my opinion.

The better hate cards against this deck are Gaddock Teeg, Choke, and Planeswalkers. My friend commented Choke mixed with discard, permanent removal, and Gaddock Teeg where the ideal mix of answers he doesn't want to see. Choke locking up a mana heavy deck, along with Gaddock Teeg sapping the power of his Miracles spells does do wonders on him. However, Gaddock Teeg will get bounced or removed, it will happen, so you need a mix of threats to get there.

We argued about the Thalia plan, and came to the conclusion that unless you're running a crap-ton of creatures, Thalia really isn't for you. Additionally, Thalia doesn't matter as much since the reason why you're playing Terminus is to be able to pay the Thalia tax and clear the board. It's better than nothing for sure, but perhaps not what you're looking for depending on your list that you're playing.

I argued we required a slot that was both good against Combo as well as Miracles. Thalia was one option, but so was straight up Hymn to Tourach. He said the card was decent against him, and probably better than other answers. Hymn doesn't slow you down in this matchup (Thalia would), and works to rip apart the hand. Hymn should complement additional targeted discard, not replace it. It's also good in the Combo matchup. Perhaps not quite as good as Thalia, but still pretty good.

I said I wanted more Chokes, but again, that doesn't help your combo matchup any more than dedicated blue-hate. Hymn does fill the role enough, and we have the slots to remove.



Since most of this may be a bit specific to Junk, there's a few main points:

1) The miracles Counterbalance curve is now REALLY good. Having relevant 3, 4, and 5 drops means something.

2) Top is by far the best card you can start with. Kill it immediately, or have them discard it.

3) Don't overextend into a board sweep.

4) Plays cards that kill Counterbalance dead, not just might kill it. Grip, REB (when casting it), Abrupt Decay.

5) Thalia by herself might not be enough, since Temrinus is still easily castable for 2.

There's other things, but some major things that some people still haven't absorbed yet. Grind Miracles for hours: this is how you learn.

-Matt

[Lord Seth]

Check the threads of the subjects before talking: A Lot of people evaluated the impact of both cards correct (entreat is another one discussed as a throwback to DoJ).And I never stated that no one got it right, unless you actually took my clearly non-literal usage of "everyone" literally. I merely pointed out that the Miracle card that was getting all the hype and panic--again, not just here--was the one that doesn't see much play whereas the ones that see real play to the point someone started a threat complaining about them--Terminus and Entreat the Angels--seemed to be rather overlooked or downplayed. I just found it rather amusing is all.


I was arguing with S. Menendian about the impact of an extra Turn in Vintage vs. Legacy stating that temporal Mastery will likely doing less damage than casting a Lightning Bolt within all it's conditional lackluster.I'm not sure what this has to do with what I was saying. But good for you?


During Spoiler Season a Lot of People Talk Big about cards that will Never see sleeves. Calling People out who are simply just excited about a New product isn't cool because it's the nature of man.Again, not sure what this has to do with what I was saying.

Back on topic. Miracles does seem to be one of the best decks right now, and a friend of mine thinks it's the best deck in the format, period. Terminus and Entreat the Angels do a lot to power up CounterTop and smooth out its weaknesses. Still, it probably won't take too long for the meta to adjust to it, especially with Abrupt Decay coming in, which just ends the deck. Then again, Black/Green isn't a particularly common color combination in Legacy.

[lordofthepit]

Survival of the fittest was way more dominant. In the last few months of it being legal, Survival decks were at least 50% of the starcity top 8s. The last local tournament in that time was kind of hilarious - 14 out of 26 people had Survival of the Fittest in their deck. You know something is wrong when a third of the field have Wispmare in their main deck.

Survival was way more dominant (in terms of numbers/top 8s/etc.), but I don't think it ever showed the volume Miracles is. Basically, more people play Miracles than Survival did, although Survival still put more individuals in the top 8 of various tournaments.

The First Pick Games metagame was way different than the Mirkwood one. Hardly anyone ran Survival.

[Tao]

Overload this thread.

(Rewrite this thread for its Overload cost. If you do, change its text by replacing all instances of "Miracle" with "Brainstorm" and multiply the numbers of Top8 performances.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Overload this thread.

(Rewrite this thread for its Overload cost. If you do, change its text by replacing all instances of "Miracle" with "Brainstorm" and multiply the numbers of Top8 performances.)

8.5/10, would read again.

[catmint]

Miracles is a very good deck and I like that you can take UWx control decks into totally different directions.

To answer the initial question if Miracles is the most popular and best deck in the format: No - current spike in popularity is not a problem, just a trend.

There are 4 Tier 1 decks, which all have the ability to adapt to the meta in order to stay competitive.

Esperblade has a pretty good miracle matchup. 3-4 Engeneered Explosives answer Entreat & Counterbalance very well. you can cast onl 1/2 of lingering souls & use batterskull to play around Terminus. It will mostly be about Jace. Discard plays a huge role.

Maverick needs Mother + Teeg (I saw 3 Teeg in 75 recently) and of course still needs to play smart and not overextend due to Miracles running Karakas.

RUG needs to play smart (not overextend, save counters for entreat or stuff like baneslayer angel) and adapt the SB. I felt ok playing long games with my Stifle build and 2 Red-blasts, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Krosan Grip, 2 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Envelop in my SB. Surgical can also be an option to ruin their day.

And most of the other Tier decks like Show&Tell, Storm, Goblins, Dredge, Reanimator, Merfolk... all also not completely invalidated by this Miracle control variant.

[Amon Amarth]

Miracles is great but the deck isn't a problem for a couple reasons.

1. It's still a rather ponderous pure control deck. Even with Entreat you can still go to time, especially as the field becomes more saturated with Miracles. Long games are mentally draining, and unintentional draws are just about the most tilting thing ever.

2. The deck has some straight up terrible matchups. Goblins, for example, is probably the last deck you ever want to be paired against. Dredge is unfavorable as well.

3. There are many potent SB cards to bring in as well that they won't be able to interact with favorably and interact on different axes. Krosan Grip, Abrupt Decay (MD material), Sulfuric Vortex, Winter Orb (a beating!), Armageddon, etc. Even something like Slaughter Games on Entreat is pretty brutal.

The deck isn't really frustrating to play against. It has a ton of library manipulation so it's already set up to miracle it's spells from the get-go. You never feel blown out like you do from, say, A Bonfire in Standard. Having a pure control deck in the format is a good thing and I'm glad there is one that's viable.

[Tormod]

Miracles is great but the deck isn't a problem for a couple reasons.

1. It's still a rather ponderous pure control deck. Even with Entreat you can still go to time, especially as the field becomes more saturated with Miracles. Long games are mentally draining, and unintentional draws are just about the most tilting thing ever.

2. The deck has some straight up terrible matchups. Goblins, for example, is probably the last deck you ever want to be paired against. Dredge is unfavorable as well.

3. There are many potent SB cards to bring in as well that they won't be able to interact with favorably and interact on different axes. Krosan Grip, Abrupt Decay (MD material), Sulfuric Vortex, Winter Orb (a beating!), Armageddon, etc. Even something like Slaughter Games on Entreat is pretty brutal.

The deck isn't really frustrating to play against. It has a ton of library manipulation so it's already set up to miracle it's spells from the get-go. You never feel blown out like you do from, say, A Bonfire in Standard. Having a pure control deck in the format is a good thing and I'm glad there is one that's viable.

THIS so much.

I picked up Miracles after Ghent and played it relgiously for 2 months before dropping it for all the above reasons. Too many matches go to time and usually ends up in draws. You can be quick with top but if you run into another slow deck, its going to go to time.

[Asthereal]

Funny to read that Miracles and Survival are named in the same thread. The nice solution I played against the Vengevival onslaught works against the Miracles hype as well. They even reprinted it in R2R as a small hint: 'Don't forget about this card; we are fed up with having to ban every strong card in the format while there are enough cards to stop them...'.

Wanna guess which one I mean?

[rxavage]

Funny to read that Miracles and Survival are named in the same thread. The nice solution I played against the Vengevival onslaught works against the Miracles hype as well. They even reprinted it in R2R as a small hint: 'Don't forget about this card; we are fed up with having to ban every strong card in the format while there are enough cards to stop them...'.

Wanna guess which one I mean?


Ppp...pithing needle, a card any and every deck can run and cast with ease and there will always be relevant if not optimal target in any matchup.

[Asthereal]

Exactly. It's so simple. Peedle is a fine versatile enough sideboard card, and if a deck is running rampage that you could stop with Peelde, it seems an auto-include. Still, back in the Vengevival days I didn't see many Peeldes at all.

Against Miracles it stops Top, which sort of enables half the deck, and it can be used to stop the card that destroys it (EE) and stop the main wincon (Jace). Seems pretty sweet. In addition, no more Sneak Attack shenanigans, or Griselbrand draw, or Wastelock, if that's what you are affraid of.

[JanoschEausH]

It's funny, but UWR Miracle just scoops to GWR Enchantress. Counterbalance can hurt, but alot of your cards cost 3-5. Choke and City of Solitude are great, too.

[catmint]

Pithing Needle stops top, but they can still top in response and then shuffle it away. you are a card down and they have to card select like any other brainstorm player and use it (or Jace) to put their miracles back if they dont want/can't cast them imediately. Fair trade given that you are a card down, but not so sick that needle should be a lot more common in sideboards. I played 1 needle in RUG because I can also use it against maverick, esper and a lot of random decks.

[Tao]

8.5/10, would read again.

Thx. I thought it was pretty clever.

But anyway, it is funny to see which scapegoat has to take the beating for Brainstorm this month. Half a year ago it was RUG that was unfair and unbeatable, then Reanimator was the big talk, then Sneak and Show, then Omniscience and now apparantly "Miracles are running rampant".

without Brainstorm all these decks would be perfectly fair but hey, go Legacy community

[catmint]

Yes strange that people complain... I think the format is very healthy and nice.
I can run a top tier deck trying to beat everything, but going totally different routes/colours or I can play something linear and win on any given day. The most important factor is that you are good with your deck and able to adapt (of course if somewhint like misstep is printed you might be the goblin champ - you wont adapt).

Good example was Ovino7 (470 people tourney) in Milano this weekend. http://nerd-blog.com/2012/09/23/ovino-7-decklist-top-8-legacy/

Top8:

Alex Del Valle – Reanimator
Temo Shunnemann – Ant
Andrea Gresini – Goblin
David Rocher – Bant
Matteo Lang – UW Miracle
Angelo Cadei – UW Miracle
Andreas Reling – Dredge
Jean Marc Caron – Goblin

I finished 27th with RUG and altough the meta was filled with Tier decks, punishing bloodbraid was out to get me in Round 3. Got to love legacy. :laugh:

If you want to read something out of this (and other tourney results) it is that Miracles became more popular and people start to get really good with it and other decks/players did not adapt properly yet.

[Darkenslight]

Thx. I thought it was pretty clever.

But anyway, it is funny to see which scapegoat has to take the beating for Brainstorm this month. Half a year ago it was RUG that was unfair and unbeatable, then Reanimator was the big talk, then Sneak and Show, then Omniscience and now apparantly "Miracles are running rampant".

without Brainstorm all these decks would be perfectly fair but hey, go Legacy community

The argument can be effectively summed up as "Go Go Gadget Banstorm."

[Barook]

without Brainstorm all these decks would be perfectly fair but hey, go Legacy community
To be fair, BS is a direct enabler for Miracles (along with Jace and SDT).


Pithing Needle stops top, but they can still top in response and then shuffle it away. you are a card down and they have to card select like any other brainstorm player and use it (or Jace) to put their miracles back if they dont want/can't cast them imediately. Fair trade given that you are a card down, but not so sick that needle should be a lot more common in sideboards. I played 1 needle in RUG because I can also use it against maverick, esper and a lot of random decks.
What about Phyrexian Revoker, then? Sure, it's susceptible to creature removal, but it's never completely dead and they can't react anymore if you vial it into play.

from Cairo performed pretty well (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49260) last week with his Death & Taxes deck, including against Miracles in the finals.
I'm interested to see how this deck performs in the future, considering it's one of the few decks in the format that can truely abuse Rest in Peace in the sideboard due to its zero graveyard dependency.

[joemauer]

I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to become ban brainstorm thread.......


As for the actual topic at hand, the miracle deck is powerful but quite boring to play with. It is a new toy so people are bringing it out in force, but it is a mental bore to play with. I couldn't imagine the same number of people playing this deck further down the line(could still be popular, just less so).

[Koby]

I don't think it's a surprise at all that AEther Vial decks packing cavern of Souls being a naturaly predator to true blue-control decks. Terminus doesn't change this either. Hence, Goblins and slightly less popular - Death & Taxes, are able to squeak out wins against these decks.

[wizard_of_gore]

People should play more krosan grips.

[menace13]

I don't think it's a surprise at all that AEther Vial decks packing cavern of Souls being a naturaly predator to true blue-control decks. Terminus doesn't change this either. Hence, Goblins and slightly less popular - Death & Taxes, are able to squeak out wins against these decks.

Goblins is the better of the tribal, and Vial decks against Miracles by far. Aside Vial, and Cavern, they have Lackey, Tutors for Draw 4s, and haste-all making it brutal. Goblins Reduces the effectiveness of the board wipes because it can draw again and perform a hasted alpha strike. Other Vial decks can have virtually dead cards in removal, extra Vials, or soft counters, where as Goblins doesn't really suffer that.

There is also the Cbalance lovers who have waited for years to bust them out again and Top people to death.

Edit: Fuk.. I forgot to mention Ban Brainstorm in there somewhere, so, yeah. Ban it plz, thxkbye

[csy]

I think its uwr miracles is a great addition to the meta game. I think legacy is still really open right now. I mean look at Milton's reanimator list from the invi, 0 forces! Im just sick of RUG, well and Todd Anderson.

[nedleeds]

I was 3-1 vs. Miracles with the one loss being me getting myself a game loss for touching cards on a tezzeret activation in a game one that was absolutely going to be mine. Game two dragged into time with him up 1-0.

So 4-0 except for a sketchy call that went against me. But if Miracles have you hurting it's not the miracles, it's brainstorm. Play a chalice on 1 and watch that deck operate.

Miracles folds to stax / chalice / trinisphere.

[sdematt]

@ Nedleeds

Big fan of Smokestack, Chalice, Trinisphere, and Tabernacle. Heart.

@ All

Miracles doesn't do well against Enchantress, MUD to some extent, Lands, or Stax. Perhaps you should fiddle with those esoteric decks and maybe bring them more into the mainstream.

@ Tao


without Brainstorm all these decks would be perfectly fair but hey, go Legacy community

Are you personally in favour of banning Brainstorm, or no? I'm just generally curious, I don't want to attack your opinion, just understand your position.


-Matt

[csy]

oh no, here goes the ban brainstorm argument. If you want brainstorm gone, just go play modern. You can hurp durp all day in that format.

[Tao]

@ Tao

Are you personally in favour of banning Brainstorm, or no? I'm just generally curious, I don't want to attack your opinion, just understand your position.

-Matt

I am very much in favor of banning Brainstorm. Besides being insanely powerful (the ~strictly worse Ponder is banned in modern and restricted in Vintage; Brainstorm has been the most played Legacy card of the month for 20+ straigth months now) the way it works helps abusive/unfair strategies:

- Drawing multiples of a a Combo piece should be a natural drawback and power level balance for a Combo deck. With Brainstorm Combo decks can get rid of excess pieces for fresh material with a card they'd play anyway which is the main reason why Griselbrand decks (SnT, Reanimator, Omniscience) can operate so effectively.
- Being able to exchange the top card of the library with a card from your hand for one Mana while gaining card quality advantage is also causing problems. Delver flips too easily, with CB in play Brainstorm becomes a 1-Mana-Cantrip-Counterspell and the drawback of this month's scapegoat Miracles (drawing them too early) gets not only completely negated but even turned into an advantage.

[JDK]

What's with you Germans and your Brainstorm aversion? Last time this Erdverschlinga guy was spamming those "ban Brainstorm plx" Posts in every thread and now it's you (if you are different persons anyway).

Cannot you just discuss about the given topic, instead of turning everything into "mimimi blue"?

[(nameless one)]

A German vs. Austrian... Isn't this how World War One started? (which led to German 'nationalism' of Adolf Hitler which sparked World War Two)

[joemauer]

A German vs. Austrian... Isn't this how World War One started? (which led to German 'nationalism' of Adolf Hitler which sparked World War Two)

Good point.

Banning Brainstorm in Legacy is equivalent to killing Jews.

[Lord Seth]

A German vs. Austrian... Isn't this how World War One started?No, World War I started when an Austrian (Ferdinand) was assassinated by Gavrilo Princip (whose nationality really depends on how you quantify it, but wasn't German). So it was really a Serbian vs. Austrian, or Yugoslavian vs. Austrian, or Bosnian vs. Austrian, or Austrian vs. Austrian, (like I said, really depends on how you quantify it), but wasn't German vs. Austrian.

[menace13]

Miracles doesn't do well against Enchantress, MUD to some extent, Lands, or Stax. Perhaps you should fiddle with those esoteric decks and maybe bring them more into the mainstream.


I don't think Enchantress or lands is bad for the deck. They have about the same clock Miracles has but they lack counterspells, Entreat, Jace, and Cbalance. Setting up Cb lock on Enchantress for 2 and 3 with a Fow or Cspell in hand will beat Confinement, O-Ring, and Lets you save the counters for Replenish.

I havent played much against Lands with Miracles, but the 2 matches I did play they couldnt really beat Turn 4 Jace or Entreat EoT.

[Zoomer3989]

Good point.

Banning Brainstorm in Legacy is equivalent to killing Jews.

10/10.

I bet this is why UW Control = Israeli flag

[Koby]

What a fucking fuck?!

Step away for one minute and Godwin's Law is invoked.

Please keep the discussion to Miracles and archetypes utilizing Miracles. This is not the thread to discuss the merits of Brainstorm.

[sdematt]

Or comparing Brainstorm to Jews, for that matter.

@ Lands vs. Miracles

Ports hurt a bunch, as do recurring Wastelands and Ghost Quarters. Setting up Glacial Chasm lock is also pretty fun. EE kills the Angels. I mean, Counterbalance on 2 mucks the Loam party, but that's why you run Crucible in the main and Krosan Grips in the board. Negating all of your creature removal seems super fun.

-Matt

[nedleeds]

What's with you Germans and your Brainstorm aversion? Last time this Erdverschlinga guy was spamming those "ban Brainstorm plx" Posts in every thread and now it's you (if you are different persons anyway).

Cannot you just discuss about the given topic, instead of turning everything into "mimimi blue"?

The only reason miracles exist as a topic in Legacy is because 4 x Brainstorm is legal. Without it these cards would be marginal. Something like Terminus as a four of would be unheard of if Jacestorm we the only viable way to get it out of your hand and onto your library. Miracles are married to Brainstorm in legacy.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Miracles doesn't do well against Enchantress.

It's not so much Enchantress as a whole as much as some of the silver bullets. Carpet of Flowers and Choke are pretty nasty. Suppression Field would be a boss as well*. All of those cards could probably be run in other decks though, with just a bit of tinkering.

*Suppression Field is really a card whose situation mystifies me. It has an effect that is completely unique, very powerful, and incredibly relevant in Eternal formats. Yet it has so little use that it is a five cent uncommon from a long out of print set. I have half a mind to buy up every single one on the market, just to see what would happen.

[Lord Seth]

*Suppression Field is really a card whose situation mystifies me. It has an effect that is completely unique, very powerful, and incredibly relevant in Eternal formats. Yet it has so little use that it is a five cent uncommon from a long out of print set. I have half a mind to buy up every single one on the market, just to see what would happen.I feel Suppression Field has the same issue that Rest In Peace will probably have: While it's incredibly powerful against certain decks, it doesn't get played much because the decks that actually can use it (White decks) will usually be hurt by it also.

[JDK]

The only reason miracles exist as a topic in Legacy is because 4 x Brainstorm is legal. Without it these cards would be marginal. Something like Terminus as a four of would be unheard of if Jacestorm we the only viable way to get it out of your hand and onto your library. Miracles are married to Brainstorm in legacy.
I fail to see how this justifies the "Ban Brainstorm" rants.


A German vs. Austrian... Isn't this how World War One started? (which led to German 'nationalism' of Adolf Hitler which sparked World War Two)
Back to history class.

[nedleeds]

He didn't rant. He presented a coherent argument.

[Fizzeler]

Or comparing Brainstorm to Jews, for that matter.

@ Lands vs. Miracles

Ports hurt a bunch, as do recurring Wastelands and Ghost Quarters. Setting up Glacial Chasm lock is also pretty fun. EE kills the Angels. I mean, Counterbalance on 2 mucks the Loam party, but that's why you run Crucible in the main and Krosan Grips in the board. Negating all of your creature removal seems super fun.

-Matt
This is very true, really I did this match-up yesterday (and note my Lands deck is short two Tropical Islands which means I run a basic Island and another Bayou), after getting Cliqued twice for both my loams I drew another one and essentially took control of the game from there with Wasteland locking my opponent and a Crucible on board, he resolved Counterbalance once (costing him a brainstorm) which was immediately followed by an EE on 2 for 3 mana (as he countered my loam previously). Granted this match-up may never finish game 2 or even game 1 because it is really long unless either player gets the nuts draw

Stax goes similarly where an early Chalice followed by Sundial lock = gg

I shudder at the thought of Miracles Vs Enchantress

Miracles as a whole from what I have seen is weak to prison style control decks and discard

It's not so much Enchantress as a whole as much as some of the silver bullets. Carpet of Flowers and Choke are pretty nasty. Suppression Field would be a boss as well*. All of those cards could probably be run in other decks though, with just a bit of tinkering.

*Suppression Field is really a card whose situation mystifies me. It has an effect that is completely unique, very powerful, and incredibly relevant in Eternal formats. Yet it has so little use that it is a five cent uncommon from a long out of print set. I have half a mind to buy up every single one on the market, just to see what would happen.

Can Miracles even win through Solitary Confinement followed by Words of War for the kill?

As I have said earlier I think we are just seeing the rise of control again in Legacy, which is fine I just sometimes like to finish game 2

[Barook]

I feel Suppression Field has the same issue that Rest In Peace will probably have: While it's incredibly powerful against certain decks, it doesn't get played much because the decks that actually can use it (White decks) will usually be hurt by it also.
I wouldn't put RIP and Suppression Field on the same level.

RIP has an immediate effect on the game state, being a Morningtide, AND provides a lasting, devestating effect against graveyard-based decks.

Suppression Field, however, sucks - hard. If you don't play it early enough, it doesn't do much to affect the board situation and can easily be dismissed, resulting in a dead card. It would be much better as a hate bear.
Aside from that, its symmetry breaks it. The trade-off to abandon activated abilities simply isn't worth it, while decks can function properly without abusing the graveyard.

[nedleeds]

The decks that crush miracles all have great value ... thus they get played less.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I feel Suppression Field has the same issue that Rest In Peace will probably have: While it's incredibly powerful against certain decks, it doesn't get played much because the decks that actually can use it (White decks) will usually be hurt by it also.

Yeah, it is hard to break the symmetry of the card, but I still feel there is room for some sort of archetype that takes advantage of cards like Suppression Field effectively. It's such a powerful effect; there must be some way to really make use of it.


Can Miracles even win through Solitary Confinement followed by Words of War for the kill?

It's pretty damn hard for them to beat Solitary lock plus a win con, but it's also hard to get to that state in game 1. Their removal (Terminus, O-Ring, Banishing Stroke) is actually relevant against you and Counterbalance is nastier against Enchantress than it used to be on account of the wider CMC range they play.

Games 2&3 are much easier with a good sideboard, but time issues pose a big problem in winning the match. If it took 30+ minutes to lose game 1, the Miracle player can easily force a match win or draw while still playing completely within the rules.

[Amon Amarth]

The decks that crush miracles all have great value ... thus they get played less.

Are you being snarky or are you trying to make a point? I honestly can't tell.

[Hanni]

I never had problems against Enchantress playing U/W CounterTop Planeswalker. Now with Miracles giving an answer to a resolved Enchantress, Entreat giving the deck a much faster clock, and Detention Sphere as an upgrade to Oblivion Ring... I'm not sure why the matchup would suddenly become awful.

Postboard can go either way depending on eachother's sideboards. If Miracles has nothing relevant to bring in vs Enchantress but Enchantress has a handful of good cards to bring in, that's obviously going to change the dyanmics of the matchup. Miracles does have access to some nasty Enchantress hate though, whether it be flashing back Disenchants (since Erase is too narrow), Aura of Silence, or the real backbreaker... Serenity. Of course, Engineered Explosives or more Detention Spheres work too, with the additional 2 Sphere's being good against Show and Tell (and relevant almost everywhere else).

[Antonius]

Miracles gets wrecked by Standstill. Granted, no one plays that shit anymore but it could see a resurgence with Supreme Verdict. The card isn't even out yet and we haven't even played with it but I think when it does, the UW supertype will have a very interesting debate about whether Uncounterable is better or worse than 1cmc. And if the format really slows down and UW maintains its popularity we might see people start tooling up for the mirror with Ancestral Visions or little jace or even Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. I'm all for a slow format. I just can't stand that two card combo bullshit.

[xfxf]

I'm all for a slow format. I just can't stand that two card combo bullshit.

I sometimes wish this forum had a "Like" button.

[Barook]

With all that talk about how Needle/Revoker and CotV weakens/disrupts Miracle, I wonder how Stompy decks (especially Faerie Stompy) perform against Miracle decks.

[Chimera87]

Miracles gets wrecked by Standstill. Granted, no one plays that shit anymore ...

I play both UW(b) Miracles and BUG Landstill and I can confirm that there is almost no way for Miracles to win that matchup. Quite funny actually.

Miracles is not close to running rampant. Why are discussions like this even here?