Tax & Taxes - Thalia Angel Stompy [Archive]

Barook

09-26-2012, 06:14 PM

Edit: Latest list:

4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [MR] Ancient Den
5 [10E] Plains
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [JGC] Windswept Heath
1 [JGC] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [SH] Mox Diamond

4 [UL] Mother of Runes
2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
4 [ARC] Lodestone Golem

4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [NPH] Batterskull
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 3 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [CHK] Ghostly Prison

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Since Thalia is quite good in the current format, I'm toying with the idea to put together a deck that taxes your opponent as much as possible while being relatively unaffected.

This is just a rough draw, so more input is very welcome:

4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
11 [10E] Plains (2)
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
3 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [ARC] Lodestone Golem

4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine

The deck is pretty self-explanatory:
Mom for protection, Thalia and Glowrider for taxing, Lodestone Golem as additional tax effect and powerful beater (the self-taxing isn't that bad), Revoker and Mindcensor for utility disruption, SFM for CA and tax evasion.

Not sure about the SB yet.

gpowerone

09-26-2012, 06:49 PM

No Wasteland?

This is the type of deck I'd like to try Leonin Arbiter+Ghost Quarter in.

Barook

09-26-2012, 07:02 PM

No Wasteland?

This is the type of deck I'd like to try Leonin Arbiter+Ghost Quarter in.
Wasteland would be a natural fit, especially with taxing, but you can't really go lower on the white mana source count. And you need the Sol lands to power out your tax stuff to lock them out of the game before they can establish a board position.

For example, this just happened:

T1: Plains, Mom
T2: Chrome Mox, Tomb, Lodestone Golem
T3: Swing, Lodestone Golem, GG (also had a Thalia in hand, just in case)

Leonin Arbiter seems terrible and I wouldn't run Ghost Quarter without CoW. But thanks for the input.

Snap_Keep

09-26-2012, 07:05 PM

I would cut x2 City a plains and shave a slot somewhere else for Wastes.

I don't think there is any reason that is good enough to not play the Wastelands in this deck.

Fizzeler

09-26-2012, 07:30 PM

Vial seems nice in this deck, negates the drawback of Lodestone Golem a little and allows you greater resilience to counters

Vacrix

09-26-2012, 07:54 PM

Barook

09-26-2012, 08:00 PM

I would cut x2 City a plains and shave a slot somewhere else for Wastes.

I don't think there is any reason that is good enough to not play the Wastelands in this deck.
Sounds like a plan. After a bit of testing, I think that might work out. Wasteland is always nice to have.

-1 Plains
-2 City
+3 Wasteland

Vial seems nice in this deck, negates the drawback of Lodestone Golem a little and allows you greater resilience to counters
Maybe, but what to cut? The list is already tight - I certainly can't cut threats anymore or I'm going to end up with even more dead draws. Excess equipment might be a possibility, but so far, I like the utility which the swords provide.

Golem taxing yourself wasn't an issue so far. If you have the mana to cast Golem, the deck is already online, making the extra mana more of a minor nuisance rather than an actual issue.

I'm suprised how much shit Lodestone Golem wrecks, though. He covers what Thalia and Glowrider can't get and puts a nice clock on your opponent.

Final Fortune

09-27-2012, 01:07 PM

Cutting Mother of Runes and Swords to Plowshares for Chalice of the Void seems like a step in the right direction to me, also playing that 3/1 First Striker who costs 2 and a Phyrexian Mana seems pretty mandatory also, because that guy is totally boss in Stompy decks especially combined with Umezawa's Jitte. I think Exalted Angel is pretty nuts in something like this as well. You'd also want Thorn of Amethyst some where in here IMO because you may as well play Spheres for density of disruption.

Barook

09-27-2012, 01:52 PM

Needs moar Dryad Militant. That card is boss as shit against Snapcaster, Lingering Souls, and RUG Tempo in general. Also that other Cursecather one drop for W/U seems legit considering Thalia, and yes you should probably run Wasteland to compliment Thalia, Lodestone, etc.
Judge's Familiar might be worth testing, but again, it's questionable in which slot.
I don't see what's so great about Dryad, though. Taxing already heavily disrupts the things you mentioned. The ideal case is there they can't play many spells anyway. E.g. yesterday, I had a game against W/r Parfait which went like this (was pretty much a god draw, though):

On the play:
T1: Mox, Tomb, Glowrider
T2: Land, Golem
T3: Golem
T4: Glowrider
My opponent never got a chance to cast one of the two STPs in his hands and was completely locked out the game.

As for graveyard hate, I'm personally leaning towards an E-Tutor-based SB which includes Rest in Peace - it should get the job much better done than Dryad, plus speed is less of an issue with Chrome Moxen for a potential T1 RIP.

Cutting Mother of Runes and Swords to Plowshares for Chalice of the Void seems like a step in the right direction to me, also playing that 3/1 First Striker who costs 2 and a Phyrexian Mana seems pretty mandatory also, because that guy is totally boss in Stompy decks especially combined with Umezawa's Jitte. I think Exalted Angel is pretty nuts in something like this as well. You'd also want Thorn of Amethyst some where in here IMO because you may as well play Spheres for density of disruption.
I originally started out with CotV, but I don't think it's worth it to run it in the MD. You DO need creature removal and being forced into MD O-Ring felt clunky and slow if it's your only way to remove fat creatures which your equip can't handle. Plus, STP can handle your tax effects better than O-Ring with your SOL lands and Moxen. I would rather run CotV in the SB, along with O-Rings for various match-ups, including Show&Tell.

The Phyrexian guy sounds interesting, but again, what to cut? It doesn't bring anything towards the disruption table and space is tight.
I considered Exalted Angel, but :w::w: hurts its playability here too much. I enjoy being online with only one white source.

Thorn of Amethyst doesn't seem too hot here. It can never be turned into a threat (via equipment) and gets hit by 8 cards (Thalia and Glowrider) in the MD instead of just 4 (Lodestone Golem). I would rather play Judge's Familiar before that.

Thanks for the input, guys!

On a different note:
As mentioned above, I'm considering an E-Tutor-based SB with CotV, Rest in Peace, O-Ring and Ethersworn Canonist, among other things. Further suggestions?

klaus

09-27-2012, 02:13 PM

sco0ter

09-27-2012, 02:17 PM

(nameless one)

09-27-2012, 02:43 PM

I heard Preeminent Captain works quite good in a Stompy shell, if you are willing to add more soldiers.

There are some threads about Soldier Stompy here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12434-Discussion-Soldier-Stompy) and here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19365-Deck-Soldier-Stompy).

Luckily, Thalia is also a soldier.

While we're on this, this looks so fun to play:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8964&iddeck=65478

I'm not sure if it would work with the deck above but Precinct Captain looks like the two-drop Goblin players have been waiting (but probably will never get)

Barook

09-27-2012, 02:54 PM

5 equipments is overkill. I don't see how you can benefit from more than 3.
I dont see any good use of Golem either. Leonin Arbiter should be stronger.
Glow Rider and Thalia also make C. Mox considerably worse, though I do see that it only matters turn one. Actually - Chrome Mox could be good afterall.
I agree that the Equipment count is too high, but I'm still in the phase where I'm figuring out which one has to go to the Sb since all of them have nice benefits.

You only want to play Mox on T1 (or T2) anyway due to its card disadvantage. So it isn't a problem at all with taxing effects.

I don't think Leonin Arbiter is any good due to being too conditional. It never made a big splash for a reason.

However, what really suprised me is how good Lodestone Golem actually is. It wreaks havoc in the format which makes wonder why it isn't played more. It was MVP in quite a few games so far and I think it isn't too far-fetched to say it's the best card in the deck (yes, even better than Thalia - I know it sounds weird). It is THAT good.

Justin

09-28-2012, 07:34 AM

Barook

09-28-2012, 08:27 AM

I'm guessing that the reason that the equipment number was so high was that the old Angel Stompy decks (pre-Stoneforge Mystic) played a ton of equipment. Now with SFM, no deck really needs to run more than three.

You might consider cutting 2-3 equipment from your list and adding Oblivion Ring. I realize that O-Ring has negative synergy with Thalia and Glowrider, but it provides more removal and you can reliably drop it on turn two. It also obviously helps against Show and Tell decks. If you have two Sol Lands in play, you can essentially pay the "tax" for any noncreature spells you run. Maybe for the sideboard anyway.
After further playtesting, I'm probably cutting SoFI, at least from the MD. So far, I never wanted to fetch it - Jitte is so much better against Tribal decks and I like the utility/protection of the two black swords.
The above mentioned Porcelain Legionnaire might be worth considering - he dodges both Thalia/Glowrider and Golem taxing, dominates Mongoose and friends in combat and makes a pretty fancy equipment carrier due to first strike, just like Thalia.

I'm looking for more ways to deal with decks that are quite artifact/enchantment/equipment heavy since they're giving me trouble. O-Rings alone are not a satisfying solution, being rather clunky at that.

If it's repeatable, even better. I might consider Devout Witness to turn dead cards like Moxen or excess Thalias into answers. But the summoning sickness quite frankly sucks.
Kor Sanctifiers have the problem of :w::w: to do anything.

Barook

09-30-2012, 10:50 AM

Update:
I'm also looking for people on MWS to playtest this deck, especiall RUG Delver, Miracle/Blade Control, Goblins, Maverick and S&T variants. After playing it a while, I think the deck has some merits with further fine-tuning.

Devout Witness didn't impress me. Going to try out 2 O-Rings in the main now.

I'm also looking for SB tech to deal with pesky utility creatures like Mom, Lavamancer, etc. - I would prefer an artifact source with repeatable damage.

I'm currently trying out Cursed Scroll, but it seems kinda meh. What are your thoughts about Masticore or Razormane Masticore as E-Tutor target? They're quite heavy on the mana and die to creature removal, though.

Finn

09-30-2012, 07:44 PM

Barook, as you may imagine I have tried decks like this from time to time. I like Chalice of the Void instead of Mother of Runes. I also like Windborn Muse with Thalia and Lodestone Golem. I was never happy with the lands and I eventually just dropped City of Traitors before finally going back to what I know best.

Barook

09-30-2012, 08:51 PM

DragoFireheart

10-08-2012, 08:02 PM

I feel like Mox Opal would be a better choice. Replace Chrome Mox with those, add in more artifact lands? I just don't like the card disadvantage of Chrome Mox frankly.

Finn

10-09-2012, 12:15 PM

Well, I got to thinking about this. It has been quite a while since I tried anything of the sort and there are a lot of cards printed since then. Considering the options, I really like the direction of your main better than my previous attempts to be honest. I would go to 3 Thalia perhaps. D+T hates getting flooded with them, but wants one in the opening 7 so much that the risk is well worth it. The only thing that looks like it is even dangling is the equipment suite. I think you have more than you need. Here is my first attempt.

4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Glowrider
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Aether Vial

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Mox Opal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Den
1 Karakas
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains

sb:
3 Windborn Muse
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Oblivion Ring

Hanni

10-09-2012, 05:32 PM

Finn, I don't think Vial is going to be worth it in here. There are a ton of creatures to use it on, but the accel comes too slow. This deck won't start getting value out of it until turn 3, and the bigger gains don't come until turn 4+

Don't get me wrong... the curve for Vial is perfect, the creature count for Vial is perfect... but this deck looks like it wants its accel faster than what Vial can give.

On the other hand, I'm totally on board with more Moxes, for a number of reasons.

City of Traitors looks awful in here. You aren't running Mox Diamond to pitch extras and you don't have Crucible to negate the drawback. They will single-handedly cause this deck to lose to itself, frequently. This deck has more than enough redundancy to be consistent, and I see no reason to throw that out of the water with frequent mulligans because of City. I'd run 2 tops, but even that is pushing it.

On the other hand, Crystal Vein can still give you the extra accel if you need it, while being far more stable. Additional Moxes will alleviate some of the need for accel, too.

On the topic of extra Moxes... I think that idea is fantastic. You dramatically increase your chances for a turn 1 taxer. Sol lands don't cast Thalia.

This deck only has single white costs, and so it only needs roughly 14 white sources (including Moxes) to reliably cast its guys, with any more than that being awesome.

Mox Opal can be fit into this shell, and is really good because it doesn't cause card disadvantage. 4 Chrome Mox, 3 Mox Opal, 4 Ancient Den, 4 Darksteel Citadel is the base I'd start from. You might need another 0cc artifact to enable it consistently on turn 1, though. Memnite makes the most sense to me, since he can allow you to build additional early pressure while you drop lock pieces (and can pick up Jitte like a champ).

Also... where's Chalice? Chalice wrecks most of the format right now; you're playing a Stompy deck, and you're not running it?

Mother of Runes is a good card, but she's not going to be better than Chalice. In fact, Chalice is even better in here than other Stompy decks because the tax effects make 1cc spells the only castable noncreature spells alot of times. Protection in combat is nice and all, but the equipment should satisfy you there anyways.

Most of the Stompy decks that I have played in the past never had spot removal spells. Equipment was always enough to either outsize or kill enemy creatures, especially when this deck spits them out faster. In this case, I question why you even need Swords to Plowshares, and if you really do need that effect, there was a 3cc creature printed in ISD that exiles a target creature until it leaves play (which it shouldn't with Chalice + tax).

Wasteland is without a doubt, mandatory. Bold words maybe, but I'm not joking. Blowing up the opponents land after you drop a few taxers can and will lock them out of the game. Most of your mana costs are colorless. Wasteland: run 4. Just do it.

You definitely don't need that much equipment, especially when it is going to be uncastable without SFM after you stick a few taxers. Honestly, 1 Jitte and 1 Batterskull is all you really need. If you do add a Sword of X and Y, I'd only include 1.

Not sold on Revoker maindeck. There are a ton of good targets for it, but I'm not sure what you want them for to warrant maindeck inclusion. Sure, they can act as mana denial vs mana dorks and Vial, but 8 of your taxers aren't hitting aggro anyway, and a turn 1 Chalice on the play stops those too.

Honestly, with the Sol lands and Moxes, 8 2cc creatures is about all you want. Don't forget that Chalice fills your 2cc slot too. If anything, I'd go for Porcelain Legionnaire. Beefing up the 3cc slot looks more impressive, to be honest. There is a creature that I forget the name of that costs 2W, is 1/1, puts a 3/3 Golem token into play, and gives all Golems first strike... I'd definitely consider him as a potential option. Also like I mentioned earlier, that 3cc creature that exiles another creature. I'll look up the names when I get home from work.

Lastly, I still think Thorn of Amethyst needs to be in the 75. Even if you land a Thalia and a Rider, you should still be able to drop it for 4. It might not beat like Thalia or Rider, but it makes the tax plan much more consistent.

That's all I've got for now.

Hanni

10-09-2012, 07:37 PM

I'm home from work now. The creatures I was talking about were Blade Splicer and Fiend Hunter.

Also, after thinking about it, there actually looks like enough artifacts (in the suggestions I made) to make great use of Cranial Plating. Plating is fantastic with first strike creatures like Thalia, Porcelain Legionnaire, and Blade Splicer. Plating would also be better with Ornithopter (instead of Memnite), and Aven Mindcensor. Whether Plating would be better as a 1-of tutor target for SFM, or in multiples, I don't know... but the tax effects make it fairly bad without being cheated into play.

Also, not 100% sold on Mindcensor, even though it can potentially ruin fetches. Seems like hot tech against Stoneblade, but the tax effects should already be able to shut down Enlightened Tutor strategies, GSZ, etc. There are alot of "bombier" 3 drops that this deck has access to.

Finn

10-09-2012, 09:45 PM

I like just about everything you have to say here, Hanni. The discussion on lands is precisely what has prevented me from following through with this deck in the past. I could not get it to accomplish everything it needs to for the deck to work. But that was before Mox Opal. I am only modestly familiar with the ins and outs of City of Traitors, so I am going to ride your advice here and ditch them. I am pretty sure the correct mana supply (if there is one to be had) will include Mox Opals. I was initially turned off by the double white on Fiend Hunter, but the mana is looking a bit better now. This deck should be a bit better at managing double white than typical stompy varieties. Also, I'm not sold on Cranial Plating. I am not even sure I am sold on Mox Opal. Needs more cheap artifacts, which was part of my reasoning for Vial, and part of the problem with the mana. Chrome hates extra artifacts. Blade Splicer might be a solution as it is not an artifact but it creates one, though I don't particularly like that bland card. Anyway, I think Chalice fits the deck better than Vial. The deck needs more game against creature-heavy strategies like tribal. I rethought Thalia, and pitching one to Chrome Mox to cast another on turn one is sweet synergy. Going back up to four. Keeping in mind the things we have all contributed, here is another attempt.

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Ancient Den
3 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Plains

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Glowrider
3 Blade Splicer
4 Fiend Hunter
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Windborn Muse

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Hanni

10-09-2012, 10:20 PM

Windborn Muse doesn't make sense. This isn't white stax... the only mana denial you are implimenting against aggro is Wasteland.

By aggro, I'm assuming your talking about Maverick, yes?

The best defense against aggro strategies is going to be to rush out an Umezawa's Jitte or Batterskull off of SFM. Past that, this deck is a white stompy deck. There should be a number of good 3cc and 4cc white and/or artifact creatures that can handle Maverick. Linvala, Keeper of Silence sounds pretty sweet, and Exalted Angel could kick some serious ass too... or it may even be possible to stretch into Baneslayer Angel. Sideboard, of course.

Or... just race in the air with a Plating :P

igri_is_a_bk

10-09-2012, 10:24 PM

Finn

10-09-2012, 10:30 PM

You will not be able to keep up with Maverick or Goblins without something to slow them down. There is no way this deck is going tow to tow with its current makeup. But I see no reason why it can't tax the combat step. It's that or a board sweeper. Cataclysm would be sexy, but it would cost around seven mana in this deck.

Barook

10-09-2012, 11:05 PM

Finally some more discussion. Sadly, I'm too busy at the moment to do any further testing in the next 2-3 weeks. This was the latest list before I had to stop testing:

[TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [10E] Plains (2)
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [TE] Wasteland

4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [ARC] Lodestone Golem
3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

First, Thalia is a 4-of. One of the best creatures in the deck, extra copies are pitchable to Chrome Mox and she's a removal magnet.

I wouldn't mind running CotV in the maindeck. The main reason it's currently not in the list is that I want to run StP, so it's not about Mom. If a decent replacement for StP can be found, awesome. Fiend Hunter looks nifty, but I'm interested in its performance, but it costs double white - that seems quite problematic, considering the current design of the deck. Pariah might be cool (especially with Tombs), but 3 mana + taxed by everything in the deck is most likely too much.

Is Mox Opal really worth the trouble? I liked the solid basic land count so far. Ancient Den further opens you up to Wastelands and you don't want to get cut of your (single) white sources in the game.

I like MD Revokers, but I'm not 100% sold on Mindcensor. Flying is nice, but the rest is kind of meh. Definitely a candidate for replacement.

Blade Splicer has some nice synergy with Lodestone Golem going on. It's also good to have some non-white creatures without 1 toughness in the deck (in this case, the golem), since a good chunk of creature base folds to Sulfur Elemental/Dread of Night which is definitely a problem in G2/3. If Splicer turns out good enough, 1-2 copies of Mirror Entity might warrant some testing as well. Aside from Batterskull, Lodestone Golem and creatures wielding Swords, the creatures suck P/T-wise and the deck has the mana to pump them quite a bit. Granting everything first strike with Splicer in play would be the icing on the cake.

If I had to stick to one sword, it would probably be SoFF. Pro white and life gain are nice, but you can rarely recover stuff for your GY, as your stuff often gets plowed or nothing dies because you locked them out (or it's just a useless excess Thalia).

The sideboard does need discussion. I'm still in favor of an E-Tutor one. Just grab an O-Ring vs S&T or RIP vs. graveyard-based decks. It also helps to tutor for CotV in match-ups where you really want to stick it asap. In my limited testing so far, I really liked it. Worst case scenario would be grabing an equipment or Golem of it which isn't too shabby either.

When looking for solutions, keep in mind that double white always puts a strain on the manabase.

Hanni

10-09-2012, 11:13 PM

Between Thalia, Glowrider, Lodestone, and Windborn, I think you have enough mana-taxation. What if the Thorns were Crucibles so you could Waste-lock with any of the above in play? Also, you'd get to switch the Chrome Moxes to Mox Diamonds so you wouldn't have to pitch good white cards. Your land count is pretty low for Diamonds though...

Finally, I think you want a second Jitte. Four SFM to two equipment looks unbalanced. And Jitte gets legend-ruled often, in my experience.

The problem is that Thalia/Glowrider don't tax mana strategies. Lodestone Golem is more of a midrange threat, and most aggro decks will have played the majority of their stuff by then.

That's also why I don't think Windborn Muse is maindeck material. It's definitely got sideboard potential against Goblins (although there are several cards that could be considered vs Goblins), it's not going to do much to a giant Knight with Mom protection.

The problem with Crucible is that if you go turn 1 Thalia, turn 2 Glowrider... it costs 5 mana. This deck really wants to find as many answers as possible using creatures vs other noncreature nonland permanents.

A second Jitte could be good. Or some Cranial Platings, which are pretty good with first strike and flying.

You will not be able to keep up with Maverick or Goblins without something to slow them down. There is no way this deck is going tow to tow with its current makeup. But I see no reason why it can't tax the combat step. It's that or a board sweeper. Cataclysm would be sexy, but it would cost around seven mana in this deck.

There are tons of ways for a white weenie/stompy aggro deck to handle Goblins. SFM into Jitte is extremely powerful. Batterskull isn't bad either. There are also a ton of good pro red creatures in white, if you're really concerned with them. Dropping Glowriders for Absolute Law is pretty boss, too.

For Maverick, don't forget that enough tax effects screws up their GSZ's pretty bad. They have also become haterbear.dec lately, with the only "big" threats being Knight and Ooze (once it grows). Mother of Runes is the biggest problem, really.

Against Maverick, there are other options too, whether it be Mirran Crusader, Wurmcoil Engine, more Jittes, Cranial Plating, FSword of Feast and Famine/Body and Mind/Light and Shadow, Manriki-Gusari, Hero of Bladehold, Steel Hellkite, Cursed Totem, Phyrexian Revoker, Masticores (classic, Razermane, Molten-Tail), Exalted Angel, Baneslayer Angel, Fiend Hunter, Duplicant, Etched Champion, Jotun Grunt, Serra Avenger, Leonin Arbiter, Mageta the Lion... I mean, I can keep making the list longer. Most of the options probably suck, or are subpar to other options. My point was that this deck has a ton of options for a G/W hatebear/toolbox aggro deck. There are probably some even better options that I don't know about, but you get the idea.

Barook

10-10-2012, 04:54 AM

Masticores (classic, Razermane, Molten-Tail)
Food for thought:

It might end up as too cute and Jitte is overall more effective as creature/swarm hate, but Masticore + Basilisk Collar (you could tutor for it with SFM and get around CotV with Mystic) sounds like a sexy combination, thrown in somewhere between MD and SB.

Stuff like Mom is really, really annoying for this deck in its current form, and this combo would not only completely ignore her, but also nuke pretty much every non-shroud/hexproof creature possible. A permanent

:2:: Destroy target creature: You gain 1 life.

might be pretty cool with all that mana, especially when it's a 4/4 lifelinking, deathtouching, regenerating beater, despite the discard issue. At least each piece has some value on its own.

Collar would also get better with more first strikers along Thalia, like Splicer.

igri_is_a_bk

10-10-2012, 07:13 AM

Porcelain Legionnaire is the guy somebody mentioned earlier. He looks pretty good with Jitte, and is another body for blocking Lackey on the draw.

Barook

10-10-2012, 02:02 PM

Tested some sample hands. The mana base should be able to support Fiend Hunter - whether or not it's good/fast enough to deal with problematic creatures is a different topic. Might be cool, though, as it doubles as MD S&T hate.

I tried out Ancient Den + Mox Opal, but it doesn't seem to be worth it. The more artifacts you run, the worse Chrome Mox gets. And Opal seems to have trouble to be turned on early where you need it the most.

I'm also going to try out Blade Splicer and Chalice of the Void. I like the idea of first striking Lodestone Golems which win against instead of trade with Nimble Mongoose.
CotV might synergize very well with the basic strategy, since it locks out cheap spells while they can't cast the expensive ones due to taxing. And without your Moms, you can shut down their Moms better with Revoker.

@Finn: Why not replace a Plains with a Karakas? The deck can afford to run it, imho.

Rock Lee

10-10-2012, 03:08 PM

Inspired by this build, I've been testing a different type of taxing build to great success online. Nothing really inspiring about it, it is just all-around goodness.

// Lands
2 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [MM] Dust Bowl
12 [ZEN] Plains (3)

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Dryad Militant
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [RTR] Judge's Familiar
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
4 [ARC] Oblivion Ring
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 3 [P2] Armageddon
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant

Hanni

10-10-2012, 09:23 PM

Ya know, I really do like Judges Familiar + Thalia. I think they work so well with eachother. You cannot protect a turn 2 Thalia with a Daze, but you most certainly can with a Familiar. It's a totally different deck though. This deck is a stompy deck that wants to accelerate into bigger creatures. The build you posted is more of a mono white weenie strategy. Still a great idea, but it seems out of place for this thread.

I've been trying to work on a build for that idea for the last week or so, but I'm having a tough time with it. The composition is a bit complicated to perfect. My build uses Weathered Wayfarer instead of Dryad Militant though. Stolen tech from UW Tempo, but effective nonetheless. Wayfarer gives the deck insane card advantage if it goes unchecked for a few turns, somewhat similar to Dark Confidant, but it tutors directly for Wastelands instead.

I'm going to leave it at that though, since I'd rather wait till I'm finished with it, and I'd post it in a different thread... although I'm not sure which one, since it's a combination of ideas from several different threads (UW Tempo, DNT, Maverick, The Rock, Deadguy Ale, etc).

Barook

10-10-2012, 09:37 PM

Since I'm signed off sick for the rest of the week due to a bronchitis (this kinda sucks), I got time to test some stuff.

After playing some games, I'm going back to Mom + Swords. While CotV is good in certain match-ups, it quite frankly sucks at protecting your stuff if their removal suit contains anything above 1cc spells/permanents. Including the underwhelming clunkyness of Fiend Hunter, I think Mom + StP is simply the better solution in terms of protection and removal. CotV is still solid SB material.

Blade Splicer is somewhat satisfying, especially after getting Mom back to protect it. You can't rely on the first strike when removal comes into play, which is quite often the case. Since Fiend Hunter has shown that :1::w::w: is somewhat supportable, I'm considering Mirran Crusader in place of the Splicer, though, but that's a tough call.

Since I dropped the equipment down to SoFF, SoLaS, Jitte and Batterskull, I'm a bit unsatisfied with the threat densitiy of the deck lately since natural drawn equipment was quite nice to pack the final punch. I'm probably adding back another piece of equipment to the MD sooner or later for more raw power.

Hanni

10-10-2012, 09:39 PM

Food for thought:

It might end up as too cute and Jitte is overall more effective as creature/swarm hate, but Masticore + Basilisk Collar (you could tutor for it with SFM and get around CotV with Mystic) sounds like a sexy combination, thrown in somewhere between MD and SB.

Stuff like Mom is really, really annoying for this deck in its current form, and this combo would not only completely ignore her, but also nuke pretty much every non-shroud/hexproof creature possible. A permanent

: Destroy target creature: You gain 1 life.
might be pretty cool with all that mana, especially when it's a 4/4 lifelinking, deathtouching, regenerating beater, despite the discard issue. At least each piece has some value on its own.

Collar would also get better with more first strikers along Thalia, like Splicer.

Basilisk Collar just sounds like a danger of cool things play. Masticore already manhandles Mother of Runes without it, along with a ton of other creatures that Maverick and Goblins run. Honestly, I'm thinking Masticore should be maindeck material in this deck, and it has tons of food to pitch like excess Moxes, Thalia's, etc.

The first strike in general is just awesome. Thalia, Porcelain Legionnaire, and Blade Splicer all have it, and it's extremely good against opposing aggro strategies. It is also amazing with equipment, particularly Cranial Plating.

Tested some sample hands. The mana base should be able to support Fiend Hunter - whether or not it's good/fast enough to deal with problematic creatures is a different topic. Might be cool, though, as it doubles as MD S&T hate.

I tried out Ancient Den + Mox Opal, but it doesn't seem to be worth it. The more artifacts you run, the worse Chrome Mox gets. And Opal seems to have trouble to be turned on early where you need it the most.

Honestly, the deck shouldn't need a single target creature removal effect too often. You accelerate guys onto the board faster than any other aggro deck besides Affinity (and maybe Zoo), and you're creatures are larger during the early game compared to every other other aggro deck. By the midgame, you should have equipment to deal with opposing aggro, especially with the first strike. If you run Masticore, you should be just fine against aggro. Fiend Hunter is still a very solid option, but I don't think the deck necessarily needs 4 in the maindeck.

As far as Opal goes, it's not working because you aren't supporting it properly. It may end up not being worth it to support it properly, but I'd like to test it when I get around to it.

I'm going to be using 4 Den, 4 Citadel, 4 Chrome, 3 Opal, and 4 Memnite, and see how it works. Even that may not be enough, but I think it's a good place to start, and I'd definitely like to playtest it before dismissing it.

I have extensive playtesting experience with Opal in Affinity, but I do not have any experience with Opal in a Stompy shell. After I get around to testing it out, I'll let you guys know the results. If the suggestion ends up being bad, I apologize in advance.

Inspired by this build, I've been testing a different type of taxing build to great success online. Nothing really inspiring about it, it is just all-around goodness.

Ya know, I really do like Judges Familiar + Thalia. I think they work so well with eachother. You cannot protect a turn 2 Thalia with a Daze, but you most certainly can with a Familiar. It's a totally different deck though. This deck is a stompy deck that wants to accelerate into bigger creatures. The build you posted is more of a mono white weenie strategy. Still a great idea, but it seems out of place for this thread.

I've been trying to work on a build for that idea for the last week or so, but I'm having a tough time with it. The composition is a bit complicated to perfect. My build uses Weathered Wayfarer instead of Dryad Militant though. Stolen tech from UW Tempo, but effective nonetheless. Wayfarer gives the deck insane card advantage if it goes unchecked for a few turns, somewhat similar to Dark Confidant, but it tutors directly for Wastelands instead.

I'm going to leave it at that though, since I'd rather wait till I'm finished with it, and I'd post it in a different thread... although I'm not sure which one, since it's a combination of ideas from several different threads (UW Tempo, DNT, Maverick, The Rock, Deadguy Ale, etc).

Barook

10-11-2012, 07:19 PM

I'm going to be using 4 Den, 4 Citadel, 4 Chrome, 3 Opal, and 4 Memnite, and see how it works. Even that may not be enough, but I think it's a good place to start, and I'd definitely like to playtest it before dismissing it.
That's a completely different deck then, sinc the deck can neither afford to run Citadel (you need the white mana) nor Memnite (lack of space).

I'm now back to the equipment-heavy version. I think it's performance is overall better:

4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [10E] Plains (2)
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

4 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [LE] Glowrider
3 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
4 [ARC] Lodestone Golem

4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [UD] Masticore
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [US] Absolute Law
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle

I think the SB is the thing that needs the most work.

For people who don't like the second MD Jitte - they can go -1 Jitte, + 1 Wasteland. Moving the O-Rings back to the SB kinda sucks since it leaves you without (somewhat clunky) permanent hate in the MD, but it needs to be done since I can't see anything worth cutting for them (I cut the O-Rings to bring back a critical amount of equipment, so no, I'm not going to cut equipment from the MD again).

Overall, I think the MD looks pretty okay right now. Judge's Familiar (in place of Glowrider) could be interesting due to its excellent equipment carrier properties, but I don't know if it's worth to lose the broader and permanent taxing effect of Glowrider.

@Hanni: You DO need removal. Moms, Lackey and lots of other stuff demand answers, especially since creatures dodge most of your taxing. Equipment alone won't get the job done.

Hanni

10-11-2012, 08:02 PM

That's a completely different deck then, sinc the deck can neither afford to run Citadel (you need the white mana) nor Memnite (lack of space).

You might be right, I need to work on tweaking my build some more. Some of the other ideas I gave should be considered, though.

For people who don't like the second MD Jitte - they can go -1 Jitte, + 1 Wasteland. Moving the O-Rings back to the SB kinda sucks since it leaves you without (somewhat clunky) permanent hate in the MD, but it needs to be done since I can't see anything worth cutting for them (I cut the O-Rings to bring back a critical amount of equipment, so no, I'm not going to cut equipment from the MD again).

O Ring is god awful. It's already expensive normally at 3 mana, but you're a stompy deck so that's okay. But there is no way in the world that spending 5+ mana to cast an O Ring is worth it. It's not like you even need it vs SNT with the sheer amount of taxing you have available... and if you run Chalice to shut down their cantrips? Easy matchup.

@Hanni: You DO need removal. Moms, Lackey and lots of other stuff demand answers, especially since creatures dodge most of your taxing. Equipment alone won't get the job done.

But you DON'T need removal that is a not a creature or equipment spell. Mom? Meet Masticore, or Jitte on my 3/3 first striking artifact creature (golem token). Mom doesn't given protection from artifacts.

Lackey could mean bad news if you don't drop a blocker (or you do and they have removal)... but since you are accelerating your board development too, there is the possibility of geting a Masticore or Jitte online fast enough to prevent Lackey from blowing you out. Postboard, you can cut Glowriders for Absolute Law and pretty much destroy them.

Both Jitte and Masticore are fantastic removal options against the rest of the format, too. If you need more removal beyond that, Fiend Hunter should be your go-to. I'm thinking the first striking + big bodies (and/or equipment + first striking) should be enough to handle everything else, though.

Barook

10-12-2012, 05:28 AM

But you DON'T need removal that is a not a creature or equipment spell. Mom? Meet Masticore, or Jitte on my 3/3 first striking artifact creature (golem token). Mom doesn't given protection from artifacts.

Lackey could mean bad news if you don't drop a blocker (or you do and they have removal)... but since you are accelerating your board development too, there is the possibility of geting a Masticore or Jitte online fast enough to prevent Lackey from blowing you out. Postboard, you can cut Glowriders for Absolute Law and pretty much destroy them.

Both Jitte and Masticore are fantastic removal options against the rest of the format, too. If you need more removal beyond that, Fiend Hunter should be your go-to. I'm thinking the first striking + big bodies (and/or equipment + first striking) should be enough to handle everything else, though.
I'm not so sure about Masticore. Yes, it can handle creatures, but everything above one toughness is going to be horribly expensive. And it could easily eat a StP instead of their critters if you're unlucky without a Mom. Needs more testing.

But I disagree about your removal comment. One of the reasons I don't run MD CotV is having access to the best removal in the format. Additional taxing it doesn't change that. Fiend Hunter just plain sucks and artifact solutions, while permanent, are quite slow. Masticore costs at least :4: + :2:, Jitte + Splicer :2: + :2: + :2::w: (I start to prefer Mirran Crusader, though - dude hits like a truck with SoFI or Jitte). And you haven't even dealt with fat like KotR or Tarmogoyf (which will be big due to your artifacts) at that point. StP is a more elegant solution, since you can't always expect to have excessive mana, especially against mana disruption. No reason for an expensive workaround as the only way to go - it can even supplement your StPs.

Edit: I'm also considering MD SDT now. While the deck can have awesome plays, it can also have quite shitty draws with little to no ways to fix them. SDT gives you another one-drop and helps finding gas/colored mana - something you lack in top-deck mode. A second turn Thalia/SFM of a Plains and a Sol lands isn't to uncommon and would give you a way to use the excess mana.

Hanni

10-12-2012, 10:38 PM

Okay, after a bit of testing, I'm going to have to agree with you about Mox Opal, Barook. I didn't have the space for Memnites like you said, and it was not able to consistently provide me mana on turn 1. I was able to consistently get it to make mana on turn 2, so it's no different than a mana dork in that sense, but my various lists really want 2 mana on turn 1. Ultimately, I just felt that it wasn't worth it.

However, I still remain adamant about how bad City of Traitors is. I used to play alot of Blue Artifact Stompy (not Faerie Stompy) back in the day, and that deck was even running Mox Diamond and Crucible. You want 2 mana on turn 1, but City of Traitors is god awful on turn 1. Even during later turns, this is a deck that already suffers from inconsistency issues (like all Stompy decks), there is really no reason to make it any worse. The accel on turn 2 is still bad, because you're crippling further manabase development. It's solid on turn 3+, but by then... why bother? My other issue with it is that the accel is colorless, when you want a single white for most of your creatures (plus Thalia and SFM do not benefit from it at all).

I still want more Moxes, though. The deck still wants 2 mana on turn 1. It also wants more white sources of mana. So I decided to try Mox Diamond in addition to Chrome Mox, in a 4/2 split, with 23 lands. That plan has been working extremely well in testing. I'm confident, at the moment, that a 3/3 or 4/2 split is the way to go for acceleration (depending on the build).

I've tested a few different creature configurations, still not really settled on anything yet.

Mirran Crusader seems like the perfect fix for the Maverick matchup, since it can block every "threat" in their deck and live, cannot be blocked, and is beastly with equipment. If Maverick is a big part of your local metagame (or is a significant portion of the field at a given tournament), MD Mirran is the way to go.

If Goblins is the big player instead, Masticore is a beating. They cannot kill it with Gempalm if you have 2 mana open, and it will machine gun their dudes down just like Jitte. Slap a Jitte on Masticore and watch Goblins cry.

Other than those two matchups, the other big players (that I am aware of) are RUG Tempo, Miracles, and SNT.

SNT seems like the easiest one of the 3; they just simply cannot dig out of the tax + clock + Wasteland + more tax. This deck to SNT is like Merfolk to TES. I wouldn't even worry about sideboarding for this matchup, but to each his own.

I haven't playtested against RUG, but I'm thinking RUG is going to be a good matchup. They cannot effectively attack your manabase with Stifle and Wasteland, the deck is easily capable of producing the extra mana necessary to play around Daze, Spell Pierce is mostly a dead spell for them, and the tax plan destroys their tempo and efficiency. If Chalice of the Void resolves, it is literally gg. Thalia dominates Mongoose pre-Thresh, cannot be profitably blocked by Delver, a resolved SFM (with no immediate removal) is a blowout, and first striking golems dominate Mongoose post-Thresh. Goyf is still a sizable threat, but cannot swing into 2 first strike creatures on defense. SoFoF and Jitte let the deck swing through a Goyf, as does first strike on a Lodestone.

That leaves Miracles. Chalice at 1 is huge in this matchup, especially if they don't have Top in play before it resolves. The 1cc spot is just so important to the function of that deck. Shutting down Swords to Plowshares (and flashback) literally shuts down half of their removal spells. Cutting them off of Brainstorm and Top makes it alot harder for them to find the remaining half (and they cannot put Terminus back on top of the library from hand). Our tax strategy (plus Wasteland) is ruthless against them, because they are a fairly mana hungry deck despite the efficiency of Swords/Terminus. Their Counterbalances are as good as worthless against us. Finally, our threat density, in combination with the disruption, easily overwhelms them.

This deck is incredibly strong, with great matchups overall... when the deck works right. While this deck could easily be tuned to handle the format, it still has issues with losing to itself. This deck has much better consistency than Stompy decks of the past did, that's for sure, but the issue is still there. Without Mishra's Workshops, I don't think the inconsistency issues will ever go away, regardless of what new cards they print.

Anyway, here's one of the few lists I was doing some playtesting with. This one is just for funsies, but was actually surprisingly good in testing:

Golem Stompy

// Lands (23)
8 [UNH] Plains
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [CHK] Eiganjo Castle
1 [NE] Kor Haven
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [CHP] Mutavault

// Creatures (24)
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [NPH] Blade Splicer
4 [NPH] Master Splicer
4 [ARC] Lodestone Golem

// Spells (13)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [NPH] Batterskull
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

I'm digging the Splicer's, for what it's worth. They are the Lingering Souls of this version of "Blade." If the opponent spends a removal on the token, it leaves me with a 1/1 "lord." Works great for maintaining bodies for Jitte wearing, and I have 16 Golems (with Mutavault) to benefit from the pump and first strike.

The list has 17 white sources with the Moxes, which has been plenty since I'm only using single white costed creatures. The utility lands are not backbreaking, but I've been liking them in testing.

Barook

10-13-2012, 06:39 AM

@Hanni: Thanks for the feedback. I think it's a good thing to explore different angles of the deck.

I think City of Traitors is currently okay as a 2-of. Mox Diamond certainly does sound interesting, although I can't currently fit into my version of the deck, since it would mean adding five additional mana sources. I agree that consistency is the deck's worst enemy (and anything that runs tons of removal).

Masticore is okay, not that great. He's still a massive mana hog. I might try out Razermane someday instead. Goblin still cries to SoFI, Jitte on a first striker or, to an lesser extend, Batterskull. Just be aware of Pyrokinesis after sideboarding. In general, anything that pings or -1/-1 your creatures is bad news for you - be it Dread of Night, Sulfur Elemental or even E-Plague.

Couldn't test against S&T so far. Storm combo is pretty much a joke - unless they get a T1 kill on the play or you have to keep a shitty hand, they simply cannot win. You just run too much hate that absolutely ruins them.

RUG Delver should be good. In the matches I've played so far, its performance was decent. Not as good as I hoped for (considering the deck was designed with RUG in mind), but still pretty good. Taxing is a nice touch (although it all falls apart once they can start to bolt your taxers) and Batterskull is an absolute beating for them. To add insult to the injury, you can bring in Rest in Peace from the board, leaving them only with Delver as relevant threat.

Can't say much about Miracles so far, since I played it only once (if anybody wants to playtest on MWS, write me a PM). That said, it looks like a good match-up. Your main objective is to shut down SDT and Jace. Revoker is really great for that (since they could slip a SDT on the play through CotV). After that, all you have to worry about Terminus off a Brainstorm/sheer luck. The heavy taxing does a pretty good job.

Edit: You might be right about City of Traitors. I'm going to test -2 City, +1 Plains, +1 Wasteland now. That should give me increased colored mana stability, less mulligans due to City being the only land and a full playset of Wasteland.

Edit 2: I'm considering Cursed Totem in the Sb now (E-Tutor target) against Maverick, D&T, etc., since they're creature-based and their utility creatues give me quite alot of trouble. You would only shut down your own Moms (could be sided out for E-Tutor + CotV) and SFM (you should have the mana to play non-Batterskull equipment quite easily) while they're pretty much boned since most of their utility relies on activated abilities.

Greenpoe

10-13-2012, 10:53 AM

Hanni

10-13-2012, 05:57 PM

Razormane looks a lot better than the regular Masticore, at least on paper. For just 1-mana more, you get a 5/5 instead of 4/4, first strike (always) instead of regenerate (pay 2 mana) and a free Lightning bolt instead of paying tons of mana for one. The 5th mana shouldn't be too bad for an Ancient Tomb/Chrome Mox deck, anyway. Could make a really solid 2-of.

Depends on the matchup. Against a deck like Zoo, I'd be all over Razormane. 3 damage deals with Nactals and Apes, and the 5/5 body trumps a 4/5 Goyf or a Knight that cannot grow larger than an 8/8 on that turn (if you target it with the 3 damage in your upkeep).

Against decks with alot of X/1's, Masticore is better because you can machine gun multiple guys a turn. Both Maverick and Goblins have a ton of X/1's.

Against decks with non-exile removal, the regeneration is also very relevant; whether it be Gempalm Incinerator or Qasali Pridemage, classic Masticore is a bit more durable.

The difference between 4cc and 5cc is also relevant, especially against decks with Wasteland.

All 3 Masticore's seem really awesome, though. This deck will almost always have some dead spells by the time they come down, and all 3 have very useful abilities.

I think City of Traitors is currently okay as a 2-of. Mox Diamond certainly does sound interesting, although I can't currently fit into my version of the deck, since it would mean adding five additional mana sources. I agree that consistency is the deck's worst enemy (and anything that runs tons of removal).

I'm considering cutting 1 land from the list I posted. 22 should be more than enough to support only 2 Mox Diamonds, and 22 lands + 4 Chrome Mox (with 4 Ancient Tomb) should be more than mana sources for the deck to function. That would free up a slot for Mirran Crusader, Masticore, or whatever. I could even cut a Master Splicer or two from the list, for some more Crusaders/Masticores/etc depending on the meta.

EDIT:

Honestly, the more I evaluate the deck, the more I cannot help but compare it to Merfolk. The two decks are obviously very different, but their fundamental metagame niche seems similar. You basically have two decks that have positive combo and control matchups because of their threat density and "tempo." In this case, you give up the tempo increase of Vial for the tempo increase of Moxes and Tomb, and you give up the tempo disruption of Daze/Cursecatcher/Force/Pierce for the tempo disruption of Thalia/Glowrider/Lodestone/Chalice (both decks have Wasteland so I didn't list it).

Merfolk has pretty bad aggro matchups. The aggro matchups for this deck are still a little rough, but they seem better for us than they are for Merfolk. SFM + equips help alot here, and we also have better sideboard options to boot. Specifically, the (3) Masticores seem like they would help alot against decks like Maverick, Goblins, and Zoo. Also, this deck seems much better positioned against RUG Tempo (compared to Merfolk).

Thoughts on this?

Barook

10-13-2012, 06:55 PM

Hanni

10-13-2012, 07:16 PM

@Hanni: I think you're overvaluing Masticores. They aren't bad, but the high mana cost/maintenance and continued discard in a deck with little ways to refill its hand shouldn't be forgotten. And I can't see how Moltentail is any good in this deck - the activation costs are even higher than classic Masticore.

Maybe, but you're usually pitching dead spells like excess lands/Moxes/Chalices/Thalias/etc.

Moltentail seems good because, for 4 mana, it does 4 damage instead of 2 (vs Classic)... and the damage can also target the opponent.

If you free up slots, go for Mirran Crusader. Sometimes, they're only Mox fodder due to color issues, but other than that, they're pretty awesome, especially in a more equipment-heavy version. It's natural protection also handles green fat and Batterskull pretty nicely. You should definitely give it a try.

Mirran Crusader is looking like the best option to me, too. Being 3cc is going to improve my curve some more, it shores up the Maverick matchup alot, and it's a powerhouse with a Jitte.

From what I've seen so far, the Maverick and D&T match-up are pretty horrible. I'm still looking for some tech that improves them - maybe Cursed Totem does the trick. Can't talk about Zoo, since it sees little play nowadays. Burn-heavy strategies are so-so - if you're dependant on Ancient Tomb for a while or get a very slow start, you're boned, otherwise you have a very good fighting chance with all your lifegain equipment. Sulfuric Vortex is pretty much instant lose, though, since you can't stabilize.

I would think the Burn matchup would be pretty good so long as you don't overuse Tomb. Chalice @ 1 is a beating against Burn, and all of the taxing creatures make their gameplan extremely inefficient. If they are wasting burn on your taxers, they will run out of gas. If they are sending it straight to the dome, you are slowing them down alot (and possibly locking them out). SFM for Jitte can be really good, too.

I have not played against DNT at all, so I have no comment there.

I guess my version fares better against Goblins due to Mom as roadblock and StP to stop any Lackey shenanigans. Revoker shuts down Gempalm and Vial and the equipment does a pretty good job at keeping the numbers of little green man down. Definitely not a bad match-up like Maverick and D&T, maybe it turns out to be even decent.

Maybe, but a Jitte still destroys them, and this deck has a ton of sideboard options available to address this matchup.

Any experiences with graveyard-based decks? I'm packing RiP + E-Tutor in the SB just in case. Them getting around your taxing seems rather bad.

I would think the taxing would be really good against Dredge, because they do in fact rely on casting spells... initial cast Looting/Breakthrough/etc, flashback Therapy/Looting/DR/etc.

RIP is a ball-buster against any deck using the graveyard. Unless they preemptively answer it, it's wiping their yard regardless if they have bounce/removal for it.

Barook

10-13-2012, 07:43 PM

I would think the Burn matchup would be pretty good so long as you don't overuse Tomb. Chalice @ 1 is a beating against Burn, and all of the taxing creatures make their gameplan extremely inefficient. If they are wasting burn on your taxers, they will run out of gas. If they are sending it straight to the dome, you are slowing them down alot (and possibly locking them out). SFM for Jitte can be really good, too.
I've landed an early Chalice against certain burn decks and still lost since their CC was very diverse with stuff like Rift Bolt and, of course, the unevitable Fireblast. CotV is good here, but landing it is everything but an auto-win.

Hanni

10-13-2012, 07:53 PM

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm liking Crusader. The list I posted was just for funsies (I thought the Golem idea was neat), but it could actually turn into a solid deck with a few tweaks.

The ability on Eiganjo Castle has been pretty lackluster in testing since Thalia only has 1 toughness and most creatures with more than 2 toughness have more than 2 power.
-1 Eiganjo Castle

8 4cc spells is a bit topheavy, although it's been fine in testing since I typically pitch the Master's to Chrome's when I don't open with excess Thalia's... but I could cut 1 for a Crusader to make my curve better without losing much.
-1 Master Splicer

If I add Crusaders, the SoFaF wouldn't really be necessary. Even against decks with green or black stuff, I still find myself wanting Jitte more often than SoFaF anyway.
-1 SoFaF

3 spots open...
+3 Mirran Crusader

Sounds like a winner. That also takes me up to 22 white spells for Chrome Mox. Going down to 16 white sources should still be more than enough to support the single white costed creatures. 16 white sources for Mirran might be a problem, but like you said Barook, I can always pitch them to Chrome Mox if that's the case.

Also, did anyone have any thoughts about what I said earlier about the similarity between this deck and Merfolk (in relation to their metagame niches)?

I've landed an early Chalice against certain burn decks and still lost since their CC was very diverse with stuff like Rift Bolt and, of course, the unevitable Fireblast. CotV is good here, but landing it is everything but an auto-win.

I didn't mean a Chalice all by itself automatically wins the game all by itself.

I mean a turn 1 Chalice shuts enough of their deck off that they ultimately lose. You have more than enough pressure to capitalize on Chalice@1.

Barook

10-13-2012, 08:33 PM

Report back on the golems. Blade Splicer alone didn't leave me impressed. Maybe they work better with Master Splicer and Mutavaults added.

I want to try out the 22 land + 2 Mox Diamond configuration since the deck is really mana-hungry, but I really don't know what to cut. Since I'm not really running the support for Mutavault, I'm thinking about 2 Dust Bowls as my additional lands. They can easily turn excess mana into further mana disruption, which plays along nicely with your game plan. It also prevents excess mana on the opposite side in the lategame.

Finn

10-14-2012, 08:12 AM

Barook

10-14-2012, 10:33 AM

I'm guessing that in the long run creatures like Blade Splicer will have to give way to creatures like Fiend Hunter. Without StP (I like Chalice better) you will need a robust way to deal with permanents that get past your tax net. Windborn Muse is great against all those pesky aggro decks. Flying weapon carriers are the number 1 path to victory for D&T (a clear cousin of this deck) against all aggro.
I guess it comes down to personal preference - I like StP better since it's way better to deal with creatures. Fiend Hunter just felt so clunky due to :w::w: in its casting cost. Crusader can get away with it, since it's a non-essential beater - but creature removal IS essential. Speaking of Crusader - his protection + first strike grant him "evasion" against alot of stuff, especially when combined with equipment.

About Windborn Muse: What to cut? I currently can't see any cards of the MD go. 12 taxers are essential for consistency, Revoker is a must-have to answer pesky stuff like Planeswalkers and Crusader is a very potent threat that can end the game blazing fast once you've taxed them enough.

Finn

10-14-2012, 11:50 AM

Well, Phyrexian Revoker is a form of removal. I would not cut it for this purpose. You have to decide where your deck sits in the aggro versus control spectrum I suppose. Do you want Crusader for aggro or something Muse-esque for defense?

Barook

10-14-2012, 07:59 PM

Aside from Mom, what else potential tech exists to protect your stuff? CotV can be easily surpassed by lots of things and stuff like Pyrokinesis quite frankly pisses me off since taxing does nothing. I've already tried out Absolute Law, but most the time, it's either win-more or too slow, plus it's pretty narrow to boot since you don't want to see stuff like Abrupt Decay (or an active Pridemage) either.

Edit:
Cursed Totem certainly is nice against Death & Taxes from what I've seen so far. I like it. It also shuts down a potential Manriki-Gusari[cards] from the sideboard.

On a different note:
Since it sucks to go second, what about a single copy of [cards]Gemstone Caverns? It can pitch any (excess) card and works as accel. Being vulnerable to Wasteland makes it probably too janky, though.

Barook

10-17-2012, 04:39 PM

Sorry for the double post, but after playing some matches and having a discussion with Finn(f?), it got me thinking:

Glowrider is so-so in the maindeck - it can be pretty good, if not downright fantastic in certain match-ups, but in creature-heavy match-ups, it just plain sucks.

My train of thought is that I switch the 4 MD Glowrider with the 3 SB E-Tutor and an O-Ring. There are various reasons for this:

- It gives you access to a MD answer to problematic enchantments and artifacts (and S&T), which is pretty nice and something the deck was lacking so far.

- While E-Tutor is card disadvantage and is taxed by everything, it's never a dead card. It can be pitched to Chrome Mox and fetch Revokers, Lodestone Golem (if a taxer is needed), an O-Ring for removal or equipment, since beater + equipment is the main plan to overpower creature decks.

- In versions without CotV MD like mine, it gives you another 1-drop, which is pretty nice.

- It makes the inclusion of a single Ancient Den justifiable. Sure, it isn't the optimal play, but it should smooth out the mana base a bit. After including E-Tutors with other boarded cards, I found myself wishing that I could fetch an Ancient Den from time to time. Consistency is an issue for all Stompy decks and should always be considered.

The new list looks like this:

4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
10 [10E] Plains
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [MR] Ancient Den
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

4 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
4 [ARC] Lodestone Golem

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [NPH] Batterskull

[B] Sideboard:
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [US] Absolute Law
SB: 4 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem

If necessary, the deck can still switch to the 12 taxer plan after boarding, which might be overall the better call for game 1.

About Masticore & consorts: They didn't really impress me. They're too mana/CC-intensive and the discard can be quite taxing. Against creatures, I almost always found myself grabbing equipment instead since it's just plain better in most cases. Problematic creatures like Mom can be shut down with Cursed Totem or killed with Jitte/SoFI.

Hanni

10-17-2012, 05:28 PM

You know, I was considering the exact same thing while I was working on the deck too, but I didn't post anything about it because I was afraid it was going too far away from the direction of this thread. I'm not sure if I still have my Glowrider-less version still saved on MWS or not (not at home atm so I can't check).

I agree with your decision to cut Glowrider from the maindeck, for a wide open unknown meta (or a local meta with alot of aggro). 3cc for a 2/1 body is awful against aggro decks.

I'm still 100% sold on Chalice, though. There are simply too many matchups that it drastically improves.

4 free slots is going to give me alot of room to work with now, so I'll let you guys know what I've come up with in a few days or so.

Barook

10-17-2012, 06:55 PM

No need to be afraid, Hanni. :wink:

Goblins still isn't very hot as a match-up. I'm considering Silent Arbiter as a E-Tutor target in the SB now. As long as it lives, it shuts down swarm strategies pretty conveniently, it's Pyrokinesis-proof and your creatures should be superior to theirs (especially with equipment). Thoughts?

Zupponn

10-18-2012, 02:15 AM

it's Pyrokinesis-proof

Yes, but Goblins usually has maindeck answers to artifacts, so something like Ghostly Prison would be much more useful.

Cybey

10-18-2012, 04:33 AM

My main concern about this decklist is the combination of Chrome Mox and Enlightened Tutor. I feel these cards give too much of a card disadvantage.

Barook

10-18-2012, 08:10 AM

Yes, but Goblins usually has maindeck answers to artifacts, so something like Ghostly Prison would be much more useful.
I completely forgot about Prison. Needs more testing.

One problem I see with Prison is that it gets taxed by everything (Thalia and Lodestone Golem in this match-up) while Arbiter doesn't care about that. Plus, Arbiter can carry equipment.

My main concern about this decklist is the combination of Chrome Mox and Enlightened Tutor. I feel these cards give too much of a card disadvantage.
Maybe. I'm trying out this configuration for now and see how it works.

Edit: Played only 2 matches so far, but Omnitech looks like a pretty good match-up. All that taxing + Wasteland, tutorable O-Rings and (SB) CotV absolutely ruins them.

thefreakaccident

10-19-2012, 01:56 AM

If you play a prison effect at all, it should be the winborn muse, like Finn suggested. I usually hate it's boltable body, but in a deck with so much taxing towards spells, the only removal an agro deck would be able to play by the time you push her out would be gempalm. So if you wanted her for goblins, I say no, for the most part... If it's for something more alongst the lines of vengevine-carion feeder combo/maverick/ichorid/affinity/whatever non-goblins-elves-removal filled agro, then she can be pretty good at keeping the horde at bay.

Edit:
That being said, i don't know what this deck can do to make the elves matchup winnable.

Barook

10-19-2012, 08:11 AM

Edit:
That being said, i don't know what this deck can do to make the elves matchup winnable.
If you're really that worried about Elves, you can always include an Ethersworn Canonist as E-Tutor target to slow them down. An early Lodestone Golem also makes it harder for them to combo.

thefreakaccident

10-19-2012, 08:39 AM

Barook

10-19-2012, 06:55 PM

Well, elves is very much a fringe deck nowadays, so I doubt it's even worth the sideboard slot... Although, cannonist does pull double duty against other strategies, so I could see it being used to pull double duty.
CotV should also shut down a good chunk of their deck until they can GSZ for an answer to it.

On a different note: I'm going to try out a single Crucible of Worlds in the MD as tutor target and see how it goes. Might be sexy against enemy Wastelands and establishing your own Wasteland lock.
Edit: Another reason for CoW is that I might rework the manabase. Mox Diamond still isn't off the table as additional accel. I'm also considering adding fetchlands for the inclusion of splash to deal with problematic stuff with the help from other colors without screwing myself over. The life loss might become a tad bit too high in that case, though.

Barook

10-24-2012, 02:18 PM

I was quite busy in the last time, so I couldn't test much. Some food for thought:

- Without fetchlands or finding a Wasteland, CoW sucks.

- After searching for some new tech, I found Hokori, Dust Drinker - its manacost fits the deck and gives your Moxen and taxing better value, since Cataclysm and Armageddon are out of question due to taxing. Don't know how to fit it in, though.

- E-Tutor in the MD, while cute for fetching O-Ring as MD answer, wasn't really impressive and rather slow and the card disadvantage hurts. Moving it back to the SB again.

- 4 Chrome Moxen feel more and more like a like a liability lately. In most cases, you don't have pitchable white cards or you don't really want to pitch them. Going down on 3 here for now.

- T1 Thalia is great. Going to add 2 Mox Diamond for testing, although more land is most likely required to support it better.

- Consistency is, like for all Stompy decks, a huge issue. I hate good hands with no white mana available since it's rarely worth the gamble. Getting mana-flooded with no gas sucks as well, though. I'm going to try out Eternal Dragon for this reason. He fixes a flood of colorless mana, provides steady land supply and, with enough spare mana, can generate late game card advantage and is a threat to boot. His interaction with SoLaS is kinda cute, too. After some gold fishing, 3 seems like a good number. That might change, though.

- With the additional mana consistency provided, the deck needs some way to convert excess resources into something useful. As mentioned before, Dust Bowl might fit the bill as it can feed Mox Diamond and synergizes with the mana denial plan. Still looking for space, though.

- The deck needs to pack a harder punch. Mirran Crusader is pretty decent at that, but so far, the :w::w: was always an issue. Eternal Dragon might fix that. To make room for that, I'm going to cut SoFF since they both fill a similiar role, except Crusader doesn't care about Abrupt Decay.

Overall changes for the next rounds of testing:

Cut:
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Chrome Mox
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Add:
2 Mox Diamond
3 Eternal Dragon
1 Mirran Crusader

To-do-List:
Hokori, Dust Drinker
Dust Bowl

Finn

10-24-2012, 05:19 PM

Hokori is fun with karakas and aether vial.

Barook

10-26-2012, 03:26 PM

Hokori is fun with karakas and aether vial.
I can imagine that, except it doesn't make sense in this kind of build to run Vial.

Short feedback on the current changes:

Adding Eternal Dragon was definitely the right call. It increases the consistency of the deck a lot. Didn't come into a situation where I actually played it yet, but SoLS recursion was definitely nice. Being able to play with with colorless mana, dodging taxing and being uncounterable (save for Stifle) gives it the edge against Tithe and friends.

Being able to get :w::w: reliably makes Crusader also so much better and he's definitely worth it. His first strike is good against little green man, his pro-green is awesome against fat green man and his pro-black saves his ass against Abrupt Decay and stops Batterskulls. He's also a relevant threat, especially with equipment.

About sideboard strategies:

- Space is always an issue, but what are your thoughts on Burrenton Forge-Tender? The pro red stalls Goblins, makes it a great equip carrier and the best thing: It's an actual hard counter to Pyrokinesis/Rough.

- It might end up being to cute, but with 3 E-Tutors and 2 RiP in the Sb, what about another RiP and a single copy of Helm of Obedience for a suprise combo kill?

Hanni

10-26-2012, 07:02 PM

Being able to get WW reliably makes Crusader also so much better and he's definitely worth it. His first strike is good against little green man, his pro-green is awesome against fat green man and his pro-black saves his ass against Abrupt Decay and stops Batterskulls. He's also a relevant threat, especially with equipment.

First strike? :P

AmishLuvah

10-27-2012, 12:48 PM

Man, I REALLY like this deck idea. I think I'll sleeve up a version of this the next time we have a legacy tournament.

Barook

10-27-2012, 03:34 PM

First strike? :P
The normal part of double strike won't do much against them. :wink:

Man, I REALLY like this deck idea. I think I'll sleeve up a version of this the next time we have a legacy tournament.
Nice.

What metagame are you expecting? Make sure to report back (with a list, if necessary, PM) before going to the event. There are still kinks that need to be hammered out.

Hanni

10-29-2012, 01:33 AM

Just saw some cool tech while reading trough the MUD Stompy thread: Stonehewer Giant. It's definitely at the top of the curve for this deck, but this deck does get to 5+ mana often enough. Unlike SFM, it won't do anything if it gets killed before you can activate it, but it does dodge Bolt. However, the ability is simply insane.

Barook

10-29-2012, 07:50 AM

Interesting find, Hanni.

The casting cost might be managable (especially with the increased mana consistency from Eternal Dragon), even though it + Lodestone Golem kinda sucks. The ability seems excellent, but the waiting time is pretty bad, considering StP ruins your day without an active Mom (or CotV). I might give it a shot if I figure out space for it.

From playing test games on MWS against it and making a Top 8 appearance (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50378), Sword of War and Peace caught my interest. It can't generate card advantage (something SoLaS fails to accomplish quite often as well), but it grants highly relevant protections. The life gain for yourself is meh, but the damage part could be quite relevant vs control, considering their grip is hopefully choke-full due to taxing. I could see it working as a more aggressive pro white sword when lifegain doesn't matter much.

On a different note:
The Maverick match-up got slightly better with reliable Crusaders. Cursed Totem is a complete house against them, but it's still an uphill battle due to huge Knights and especially all those annoying Exalted creatures. I don't have any real ideas how to deal with that. What are good white cards against Maverick you can use without screwing yourself over, too?
I'm even at the point where I'm considering Humility as E-Tutor target in the board. It shuts down both their size and utility while you go to town with equipment-powered beats. I'm worried that they still might overrun me, though, considering they're running more creatures than me.

Barook

01-04-2013, 12:44 PM

Haven't played the deck for a while the last few changes, while making the deck better, lead to making the deck basically just into another D&T variant. Meh.

One thing that catched my interest, though, is Restoration Angel for the golem variant. Recycling used SFM and Blade Splicer for extra (card) advantage sounds pretty nice. It could even flip/save a morphed Exalted Angel, despite giving it back summoning sickness. Would also help if you have only :3::w: available since :w::w: was always tough on the mana.

Main question is if there any other worthwhile CIP creatures within the :2::w: - :3::w: casting range?

Mantis

01-04-2013, 03:19 PM

I built a similar deck to the one in the opening post. This build really broke open the previous metagame with RUG, StoneBlade, Goblins, Sneak and Show and UW Miracle. However, the printing of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay have unfortunately really shaken up this metagame. UW Miracle and RUG have pretty much disappeared and Maverick seems to have returned. Maverick and BUG seem like atrocious matchups. I really regret not having been able to take this deck to a tournament in the previous metagame because I think I had a pretty good shot with this deck. Squadron Hawk pretty much blanked Terminus and Liliana as well. Revoker and Thalia are stupid good against Terminus and Stoneblade. Show and Tell has a really tough time against 4 Thalia, 3 Karakas, 4 Revoker and 4 Mangara. Perhaps if the metagame shifts a little bit and with a few slight adjustments this deck might become competitive.
New Benalia seems weird, but you almost never do anything on turn one so getting a free scry seems fair.

You are right about Restoration Angel; it's pretty much the reason this deck worked so well. Mangara or SFM in combination with Restoration Angel is gravy and it really dominates Delver and Bolt against RUG.
If you guys have some good suggestions, please tell me about them!

// Lands
11 [P2] Plains (1)
3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [FUT] New Benalia

// Creatures
4 [AVR] Restoration Angel
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
2 [JGC] Exalted Angel
4 [FNM] Squadron Hawk
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [NPH] Sword of War and Peace
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FBP] Mirran Crusader
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [PRE] Sun Titan
SB: 3 [FNM] Mother of Runes

Barook

01-04-2013, 03:28 PM

Mantis

01-04-2013, 04:37 PM

Why New Benalia? This looks like a terrible card, being slow and a Wasteland target to boot.

For what it's worth, Mirran Crusader is really good against B/G decks - they either have to use Liliana, Jace or Deed to get rid of it asap or they have a massive problem since they can't block or Abrupt Decay it and he hits like a truck with equipment.

Blade Splicer does seem interesting with Angel, though, since you can use two cards to lay 10 power onto the board.
This deck pretty much skips turn 1 anyway, thus New Benalia does not slow you down at all. You get hit by Wasteland regardless since you have 3 Karakas, 4 Ancient Tomb and 4 Wasteland so they can always hit something. New Benalia is actually the thing I was most proud of when designing this deck, I originally had Windbrisk Heights to go with Squadron Hawk but it was win more.
I considered Mirran Crusader, perhaps it's worth it yeah... Still the deck just isn't good enough in this metagame in my opinion.

Mantis

01-23-2013, 07:39 PM

I have been continuously working on this deck, trying different splashes and experimenting with all kinds of stuff. For once, I have listened to the opinion of someone else and I must admit, you were right about New Benalia. I cut them and added Chrome Mox instead which enables a much more powerful early game. Although the obvious trade-off is that they may get stuck in your hand and be clunky at times.

// Lands
11 [SHM] Plains (3)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [AVR] Restoration Angel
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
2 [MR] Solemn Simulacrum
4 [M11] Squadron Hawk

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [NPH] Sword of War and Peace
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [GPX] Chrome Mox
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [TE] Scroll Rack

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 3 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [FBP] Mirran Crusader
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

Squadron Hawk continues to impress me, although it looks rather weak on the surface it really adds the consistency the deck needs. He turns on Chrome Mox, beats Terminus, beats Liliana, gains a ton of life with Sword of War and Peace and is great with the latest, still untested addition; Scroll Rack.
Solemn is probably the weakest card in the deck, but I can't find anything that's decent enough across all matchups as cards like Mirran Crusader, STP, Rest in Peace and Thorn are great in some matchups and terribad in others. Solemn is at least decent across the entire field, although I am still looking for a gem to replace the card with. Maybe Tangle Wire or Smokestack along with Flagstones or Linvala, I don't know. Blade Splicer is also an option, but the card doesn't appear to solve any problems the deck has and just seems like a rather weak card in general. It does combo nicely with Restoration Angel, but I don't think Angel particularly needs anything to be better. But perhaps I should give it a shot.

I'm curious if other players have still been working on this deck and would be pleased to find out your opinion on the deck.

Barook

02-09-2013, 06:17 AM

Solemn is probably the weakest card in the deck, but I can't find anything that's decent enough across all matchups as cards like Mirran Crusader, STP, Rest in Peace and Thorn are great in some matchups and terribad in others. Solemn is at least decent across the entire field, although I am still looking for a gem to replace the card with. Maybe Tangle Wire or Smokestack along with Flagstones or Linvala, I don't know. Blade Splicer is also an option, but the card doesn't appear to solve any problems the deck has and just seems like a rather weak card in general. It does combo nicely with Restoration Angel, but I don't think Angel particularly needs anything to be better. But perhaps I should give it a shot.

How's Scroll Rack going? Seems like an interesting alternative to Top when running Chalice.

What makes Sword of War and Peace MD preferable over the other Sword choices?

As far as for strong 4 drops, I still love Lodestone Golem. It's just so good against pretty much the entire field since it also taxes creature-heavy decks.

Mantis

02-17-2013, 10:07 AM

How's Scroll Rack going? Seems like an interesting alternative to Top when running Chalice.

What makes Sword of War and Peace MD preferable over the other Sword choices?

As far as for strong 4 drops, I still love Lodestone Golem. It's just so good against pretty much the entire field since it also taxes creature-heavy decks.
Scroll Rack was a bit too slow in practice. You are really banking on consistently disrupting your opponent while beating them down, wasting time sculpting your hand with Scroll Rack is often not what you want to be doing.

Sword of War and Peace is the most aggressive sword, which is relevant against Show and Tell and combo decks. Miracles and Esper Blade often have a large hand and have to deal with every creature you throw out there while they can't rely on Swords to Plowshares. Mirran Crusader already has pro green and black, with additional pro red and white he is virtually untouchable. Another advantage is that I play Squadron Hawk, which fills up your hand and racks up the lifepoints. I'm not saying War and Peace is the best sword in the game, but in my particular build it has a lot of advantages.

I tried a green splash for GZS, Dryad Arbor, Knight of the Reliquary, Sylvan Library and Qasali PM. It was decent but the deck was fragile and I really missed having evasion on my creatures. Knight is obviously a great card though.

Right now, I'm testing the following:
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
10 [SHM] Plains (1)

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
4 [AVR] Restoration Angel
4 [FNM] Squadron Hawk

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [NPH] Sword of War and Peace
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [B] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [ROE] Linvala, Keeper of Silence

Mantis

03-31-2013, 05:27 PM

I played in a 28 man GPT yesterday with this deck in Utrecht the Netherlands. I ended up in the top 4 before going out. This was the first time I brought this deck to a tournament after having tested it quite a bit on MWS.

I played the following list:
// Lands
3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
11 [RAV] Plains (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [AVR] Restoration Angel
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [FNM] Squadron Hawk
2 [FBP] Mirran Crusader
3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Sword of War and Peace
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [A] Armageddon
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

Match 1 vs. G/W Maverick: a long game where we both made some mistakes and he had a couple of huge guys with Knight of the Reliquary and Scavenging Ooze, but I managed to get Mangara + Karakas and took the game. We had 8 minutes left for game 2 and he was able to kill me in the last turn of extra turns with pretty much perfect draws. He had double Knight of the Reliquary, an STP to deal with my Exalted Angel and a Jitte to deal with the Hawks. Then I had a Batterskull but he topdecked Qasali Pridemage for the win. So ended the first match in a draw.

Match 2 against Death and Taxes. I feel like this deck is just a major improvement over Death and Taxes and it really showed in our games. My plays were just so much more powerful. He had Flickerwisps where I had Restoration Angels and I had more mana to use my equipments. His Mom just sat there while a Restoration Angel with a Sword of War and Peace flew right over his head. Both games were just blowouts. The only weak point in my build is that he has quite a bit of mana denial and that really slowed me down.

Match 3 against Jund. I have always felt Jund is a very rough matchup but against him everything just panned out perfectly. Game one I put up a ton of pressure and he couldn't find what he needed with Sylvan Library and was unable to draw additional cards off it because of his pressured life total. Game two I had SFM and fetched up Jitte. He played something and I played a land and passed the turn. He played Liliana and made me sac a creature, I put in Batterskull, sacced the SFM. Next turn equipped the Skull with Jitte and killed the Lili. That's all she wrote.

Match 4 against Zombardment. I can't really remember how the first game panned out but he made me discard some cards with Cabal Therapy and Tidehollow Sculler and also has Deathrite Shaman. But as always, the big problem with discard is that you can still rip good cards off the top. This happens and I believe Jitte kills him. Then game 2 he has to mull and is never really in the game. I have so much good cards against him that his discard just can't handle them all. I have STP's, Jitte, Chalice for 1 and Rest in Peace.

Match 5 against my buddy Vincent with his rogue Werewolf Stompy deck. We can both draw in, thus proceed to get a 'broodje van Mario' which is apparently a legendary sandwich in Utrecht.

Quarterfinals against storm. I already knew he was playing Storm and my deck hands me a Chalice for 1 on the play. I then proceed to Waste some of his sources and get a SFM with a Sword of War and Peace to kill him quickly. Game 2 he has to mull to 5 and I keep a hand with 1 land, 2 Thorns and a Chalice. I immediately rip a land off the top, play the Chalice and then play Thorn next turn and Thalia the turn after which gets followed up by a SFM which grabs Sword of War and Peace and I kill him rather quickly.

Semifinals against Jund (different player): He is on the play, I have to mull to 6 and he leads off with Thoughtseize which grabs Squadron Hawk. He then plays a Goyf and I get down a SFM. It gets burned. He wastes me out of the game while Goyf takes it home. Game two I have a pretty decent hand with first turn Chalice at 1, then a Squadron Hawk. He plays Goyf. I get a Hawk with an equipped Jitte. He has Ancient Grudge. I can Rest in Peace the Grudge away without him killing the Chalice or the Chrome Mox and the Goyf does nothing as well, so that was a pretty good trade. I put on some pressure with 3 Hawks but he has Maelstrom Pulse for them. I then get the last Hawk out and beat him down for a few turns. We both draw nothing, he plays lands while I draw into additional Rest in Peaces, Chalices, Karakas, Chrome Moxen and STPs which are stopped by the Chalice... He then Deeds my board and lays a couple of Deathrite Shamans.. I follow this up with another Chalice for 1 and a Rest in Peace. He gets a Jitte out and just kills me with Deathrite beats. Basically his sideboard hate just trumped my sideboard plan.

As for the prizes: I get to chose from a couple of terrible prizes and pick the judge foil Sneak Attack which is worth like 25 euro's...

Conclusion: I am very happy that I was able to perfom this well in the first tournament, finishing 9-3 in games which is pretty good. I was fairly happy about the deck, but Exalted Angel was just so bad. Furthermore, I often had multiple Chalices, Rest in Peaces, Jittes or Karakasses in hand so perhaps I need something to help me get rid of them.
The Mangara's and Phyrexian Revokers were pretty good and Restoration Angel was just sick all day.

Jund just seems like hard matchup and EsperBlade was a pretty rough matchup in testing as well. Elspeth, Knight Errant probably deserves another look as it seems to quite the trump card against Jund. You can just make so many chump blockers and then hopefully hit Elspeths ultimate and just beat them. Another possibility is Moat. I think I'm going to play 1 Elspeth main and probably one more in the sideboard to begin with. I'd maybe cut a Mangara as they are quite taxing on the white mana sources and you really never need 2.

I would really like to discuss this deck with people who are willing to really give it a whirl and don't give up on it too early as it's a bit more difficult to play than it looks. So hit me up if you tested the deck!

Barook

03-31-2013, 06:06 PM

Congratulations on the finish!

I can see Elspeth working since you run less taxing. She helps against Terminus and enemy Planeswalkers. I think replacing Exalted Angel for it is a good call.

Do you really need 3 Jittes, considering you're also running SFM? That seems a bit excessive and could be used for something else, like another Elspeth.

As far as card filtering goes, how about Mask of Memory? Not sure if it could make the cut and how to fit it in, but curving from Hawk into Mask does seem very nice.

Edit: I just figured out that you can activate a SFM, then play Restoration Angel, grab another equipment and then use the SFM ability on the stack to put the new equipment (e.g. Batterskull) into play immediately. That's pretty sweet if you have the :4::w::w: available.

RaZe

04-01-2013, 04:21 AM

I've been working on a similar concept of this deck but with a completely different creature base. It's still in gold fishing phase so I can't say with much confidence how it performs. I just figure I would put it out there for input and insights.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Porcelain Legionaire
4 Blade Splicer
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Metamorph

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

I've played Vintage Stax for quite a while and it shows in my deck building. I do find Squardon Hawk to be something I should really fit somewhere. I see myself trimming some Legionairs and Splicers. I also believe that Aven Mindcensor or Leonin Artiber should be considered. At least for my build. I believe that Taxing part of the strategy is paramount in making the deck stronger. And breaking the symmetry of the effects is what will make it better.

I have to ask though as I'm not very familiar with the new cards but is Restoration Angel that good? Or is it just Standards current favorite.

Barook

04-01-2013, 04:36 AM

I have to ask though as I'm not very familiar with the new cards but is Restoration Angel that good? Or is it just Standards current favorite.

I haven't tested it yet, but since you're also running Blade Splicer, you should have good reason to try it out.

Mantis

04-01-2013, 04:42 PM

@Barook: I feel like 3 Jittes probably is the right number. Against tribal decks, Jitte for the win is plan a. Furthermore, it's the only mainboard creature hate I have got. As Jitte usually pulls a lot of hate, it will be targetted down quite often, thus having 2 in hand isn't the worst thing in the world.

Mask of Memory is a nice idea, I had not considered that. It seems mainly good because you will often wind up with multiple Karakas/Thalia/Chrome Moxen etc. I am going to test it over the third Jitte.

As far as your edit goes; I don't believe the SFM will have haste, but we might need a judge to confirm this. If it were true, Restoration Angel is totally bonkers.

@RaZe: Squadron Hawk is mostly good because of Chrome Mox, if you don't play the Mox I'd stay away from Hawk as well. Restoration Angel is very good in general and very effective in combination with Blade Splicer, SFM and Metamorph.

Barook

04-01-2013, 05:08 PM

As far as your edit goes; I don't believe the SFM will have haste, but we might need a judge to confirm this. If it were true, Restoration Angel is totally bonkers.
All the SFM needs is not being summoning sick. The activation comes from the SFM before it gets blinked. The "fresh" SFM after blinking grabs the equipment while the pre-blink activation puts the equipment into play.

Assuming you have the 6 mana available, you could

- pull it off at the opponent's EoT, then equip Batterskull to the Angel in your turn and bash with a 7/8 flying vigilance lifelinker out of nowhere or
- put down a 3/4 flyer and a Batterskull during your opponent's attack phase for suprise blockers.

Sure, it's mana intensive and SFM needs to be active to pull it off, but it does seem like a strong play.

Make sure to test Elspeth as well. Jumping Batterskulls and Crusaders should definitely be good.

eq.firemind

04-01-2013, 05:26 PM

What do you think of Ghostway as a protection against (mass) removal and way to do some tricks with SFM/Splicer/Mangara?

Barook

04-01-2013, 05:35 PM

What do you think of Ghostway as a protection against (mass) removal and way to do some tricks with SFM/Splicer/Mangara?
I don't like it.

You need mana open for it to happen and it doesn't have a body, thus it also gets extra-taxed. Part of the deck is breaking the symmetry of your taxing.

Finn

04-01-2013, 06:14 PM

I don't recall if anyone seriously tried out Lodestone Golem, but the card comes up from time to time in D+T threads. The players eventually recognize that it is not quite the right fit, and the card comes under discussion 12 months later. But this deck actually looks like a better fit. Also, you might benefit from the Dust Bowl/Flagstones of Trokair tech we have been toying with. You only need 1 or 2 of each for a lot of effect.

Barook

04-01-2013, 06:22 PM

IAlso, you might benefit from the Dust Bowl/Flagstones of Trokair tech we have been toying with. You only need 1 or 2 of each for a lot of effect.
Actually, that's pretty interesting tech. I don't know if I would really want more than one of each, though.

Lodestone Golem is pretty good (and dies very easily), but I want to try out the Restoration Angel since it looks like it could enable some very strong plays. The deck can only support that many 4 drops.

RaZe

04-02-2013, 02:40 AM

Mantis

04-02-2013, 06:36 AM

All the SFM needs is not being summoning sick. The activation comes from the SFM before it gets blinked. The "fresh" SFM after blinking grabs the equipment while the pre-blink activation puts the equipment into play.

Assuming you have the 6 mana available, you could

- pull it off at the opponent's EoT, then equip Batterskull to the Angel in your turn and bash with a 7/8 flying vigilance lifelinker out of nowhere or
- put down a 3/4 flyer and a Batterskull during your opponent's attack phase for suprise blockers.

Sure, it's mana intensive and SFM needs to be active to pull it off, but it does seem like a strong play.

Make sure to test Elspeth as well. Jumping Batterskulls and Crusaders should definitely be good.
Wow, good find. I wish I knew that before I played the tournament, the match against Maverick sure would have been a lot easier in that case.

@RaZe: As far as Lodestone Golem goes; I have always found it to be quite underwhelming. I played MUD for a while and was never all that impressed by Golem. It trades with Goyf, Batterskull Delver and Mongoose and is helpless against Knight or Ooze. I guess the Sphere approach is very good against combo-esque decks and hard control decks, but I believe it's going to be very difficult to beat anything else really. With Thalia and Thorns you have too many dead cards against Maverick, Goblins, Elves and Merfolk I feel. Although you might be able to pound through with relentless aggression.

@Finn: Denying Jund, RUG or Esperblade a color seems fairly interesting. Especially with Mangara's and Revokers thrown into the mix. I think I'm going to test 1 or 2 copies and see how it goes. Making good use of redundant copies of Karakas is nice as well.

This thread is providing lots of good input, I'd say keep it up!

RaZe

04-02-2013, 07:13 AM

@RaZe: As far as Lodestone Golem goes; I have always found it to be quite underwhelming. I played MUD for a while and was never all that impressed by Golem. It trades with Goyf, Batterskull Delver and Mongoose and is helpless against Knight or Ooze. I guess the Sphere approach is very good against combo-esque decks and hard control decks, but I believe it's going to be very difficult to beat anything else really. With Thalia and Thorns you have too many dead cards against Maverick, Goblins, Elves and Merfolk I feel. Although you might be able to pound through with relentless aggression.

Lodestone in Mud is going to be underwhelming when your trying to pump out Wurmcoils, Hellkites, Platinums and Colossuses. And the thing that you really care about are 1cc spells like Stp and Thoughtseizes. Plus without any other taxing cards in the deck it's effect is ignorable with all the Deathrites, Vials and mana dorks. It is not a card you just stick to a deck and expect it to just work.

My build is meant to tackle <insert tri-color mind range deck.dec> except GW Mav and all combo except Elves. And yes the plan is simple aggro against Vial.dec and Elves. And hopefully my Sb can fix all the dead cards. When I figure it out.

Barook

04-02-2013, 07:23 AM

I think I'm going to test 1 or 2 copies and see how it goes. Making good use of redundant copies of Karakas is nice as well.
What are you going to cut for Dustbowl, though? City of Traitors? I'm not very keen on losing further white sources.

Played a few games yesterday with Mantis' build, except
-1 Jitte
-1 Exalted Angel

+1 Elspeth
+1 Mask of Memory

Sb: -1 Armageddon, +1 Elspeth

Can't say much about Mask of Memory yet (except that I never wanted to fetch it with SFM).

First impression on Elspeth was very good so far. She wins games, especially with her jumping - they get around chump blockers and assassinate enemy Planeswalkers like a boss. She might even deserve a second MD slot since she seems to be that good.

Pulled of the instant Angel combo once yesterday. It was backbreaking enough to force an immediate scoop. :laugh:

Edit:
@Raze: Since you're already running Metamorph and Blade Splicer, I would definitely try out Restoration Angel for maximum shenanigans. A possible sequence could look like this:

1) Blade Splicer --> golem token
2) Metamorph, copying Splicer --> another golem token
3) Angel, blinking the Metamorph
4) Metamorph comes back, copies Angel
5) New copy blinks Splicer again --> another golem

New result would be three 3/3 Golem tokens with first strike, one Blade Splacer and two Restoration Angels - that's 16 power on the board for 3 cards.

Another possible is fighting S&T - put Angel into play, blink your Metamorph, copy their legendary creature to kill it (they still can activate Griselbrand, though).

saspook

04-02-2013, 10:26 AM

I played this at a weekly event on Friday. It was pretty good in a heavy combo meta with my only loss being to Elves. (List might not be exact)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Chrome Mox

2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mentor of the Meek
4 Glow Rider
4 Aven Mind Censor
1 Stone Hewer
1 Exhalted Angel
2 Blade Slicer
2 Hero of Bladehold

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

I left my Elspeths at home and couldn't get Restoration Angels, so I played a few different 1/2 of's to test, but never drew them.

Mentor of the Meek is pretty awesome.

MGB

04-02-2013, 11:10 AM

Another direction in which to take this deck is to go the "Soldier Tribal" route, with the Soldier core:

Preeminent Captain - A Goblin Lackey / Goblin Warchief rolled into one
Enlistment Officer - A Goblin Ringleader for Soldiers
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - She's a soldier obviously

and any of the following others:

Ballyrush Banneret - Makes your stuff cheaper
Daru Warchief - A decent Lord that makes other soldiers cheaper as well
Captain of the Watch - A Lord that is expensive but can be back-breaking if cheated into play
Jotun Grunt - Good grave hate that is a Soldier
Porcelain Legionnaire - 3/1 body that can be played for 2 mana off a single Sol-land, and even cheaper with Bannerets in play
Veteran Swordsmith - Another Lord
Field Marshal - Another Lord

Then you can play Cavern of Souls without any drawbacks. Using the Soldier core surrounded by the other stuff (Chalice of the Void, Chrome Mox, etc) keeps most of the disruption but gives you faster aggro. Soldiers also usually plays Suppression Field and/or Winter Orb for more disruption as well.

The only problem is that Stoneforge Mystic is not a Soldier. So you either have to cut her or keep her in and just make that concession to a single non-Soldier because Mystic is arguably the best card in this deck.

Here's the list I've been playtesting for more than a year or so with varying degrees of success (I feel as if it needs one more really good soldier to be a borderline Tier 1 deck):

8 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Karakas

4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Winter Orb

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Veteran Swordsmith
3 Daru Warchief
3 Captain of the Watch
2 Jötun Grunt

SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 4 Suppression Field
SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 4 Intrepid Hero

The upside of going this route is that it kills much faster - it's almost like Affinity with its speed. The downside is that it doesn't run Stoneforge Mystic, but you could maybe shoe-horn that in if really needed.

Mantis

04-02-2013, 01:28 PM

@Barook: Those changes look pretty good to me thus far and I will probably test something similar to that. I would probably cut the second Mirran Crusader for the fourth Phyrexian Revoker and leave the Armageddon in the sideboard; Armageddon + Elspeth is so sweet :)!

@saspook: There are quite a few things I don't like about your list but Hero of the Bladehold + Mentor of the Meek is insane... Aven Mindcensor doesn't need to be a 4-of since the effect is redundant and I would not play Exalted Angel and Stonehewer Giant. Glowrider is a bad card as well. Against combo it's too slow if not paired up by other hate and against UW Miracles or Sneak and Show it forces you to overextend and walk right into Pyroclasm or Terminus.

I generally think everyone undervalues flying, it's allows you to win the damage race and gets your equipment through. Redundant SFMs or Thalia/Mangara + Karakas hold the ground for you and allow you to win the damage race.

Barook

04-02-2013, 03:01 PM

RaZe

04-02-2013, 03:03 PM

I've settled on a new list after much theorycrafting with the help of everybodys input. Ive tweaked a few jumbers tofit everything I think is needed with a curve that works. But still that is where I am most unsure of.

// Deck: WW Stompy (60)

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Blade Splicer
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Restoration Angel
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

// Artifacts
2 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
3 Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Silent Arbiter
SB: 4 Suppression Field

The sideboard reflects the weakness the a number of people have addressed. I do wish I could fit in 4 RIPs somewhere but thats something I hope teating will help ke figure out.

P.S. TheSoldier stompy looks so much fun. I might build that someday.

Barook

04-02-2013, 03:29 PM

@Raze: Why 4 Flagstones without any ways to abuse them? Why no MD Jittes?

MGB

04-02-2013, 03:30 PM

I feel as if the main advantages of going with the non-Soldier build in the Stompy shell is simply the superiority of Stoneforge Mystic. Mystic is obviously better than any other creature in either build.

But when you compare stuff like Blade Splicer, Lodestone, Metamorph, Mindcensor, and Angel, and other random stuff you can fit in here to the Soldier creature base, I feel that the Soldier creature base is stronger and faster to kill.

Soldiers come out cheaper due to cost-reduction effects, and get pumps from Lords, which makes them more resilient in combat and faster to kill an opponent.

They both obviously play Thalia, but the Soldier build can actually turn her into a 3/2 or bigger creature, and make her uncounterable through Cavern.

RaZe

04-02-2013, 05:20 PM

@Barook - I completely overlook the Jitte. The 2nd B.skull is supposed to be in that spot. The flagstones are just reminiscent of it being originally a STAX build. It still has its uses to filter out excess land in the deck when the game gets grindy but other than that I doesn't have much use really. I could fit in Dust Bowl. But it could just be a simple plains no problem. If I notice that life points aren't that big of a deal with the deck [which I doubt with A.Tomb] I could try Canopy in it's place instead. Plus having a transformational SB into STAX is still in the books for me.

@MGB - I'm a long Goblins player. And other than Preeminent Captain, I don't see how the Soldier build is superior to it. Even Goblins have included Thalia as a splash and it still isn't a consistent enough throughout the field that people would pick it up again in droves like before. I can't talk about everybody else s build because mine is more emphasized on the Taxing part. How does the soldier build compete against SnT, Miracles, Storm? Not to mention Dredge? [Mind you my build is completely dead against dredge imo]. You maybe right that the Soldier build has a better aggro base. But is that what we need to make the deck better across an evolved metagame? I'm not saying it isn't cuz I don't know. But I doubt it is.

Barook

04-03-2013, 07:48 AM

@MGB: Why don't you run Elspeth, Knight-Errant? She's a very good card by herself and she produces soldier tokens.

@saspook: Mentor of the Meek is a pretty sweet find, although I'm still somewhat sceptical since he does nothing by himself.

The combo with Hero of Bladehold looks interesting, but could often require suicide attacking.

Why not combine Elspeth and Mentor instead?

Create token, pay :1:, draw a card - sounds like a pretty sweet engine to grind out your opponent.

Mantis

04-03-2013, 08:28 AM

@RaZe: Flagstones is a strictly inferior choice if you have no way to abuse it. Not only does it hurt against Price of Progress but you can also Time Walk yourself by having a land come into play tapped if you have 2. The opponent can also Time Walk you on your upkeep if he Wastes the land. It also provides targets for Deathrite Shaman if you draw 2 and can help un colorscrew your opponent with Deathrite + Wasteland.

@Barook: First off, I would like to thank you for your excellent contributions to the thread and archetype in general. I would like to know how my build fared for you? I feel as though the deck requires a bit of experience, practice if you will, before it starts performing well, so if it did poorly I would encourage you not to give up too soon.

@MGB: Merfolk makes giant creatures and has a ton of disruption to beat combo and control alike. Goblins bring tremendous card advantage and selection combined with mana disruption and thereby has a good control and midrange matchups. Elves is blistering fast and very consistent, albeit a bit fragile. Soldier Stompy really doesn't harness any of these advantages. It has in common with the other tribal decks in that it needs a critical number of creatures to resolve and stick before it gets scary but does not harness any of the other outlined advantages. It's slow, doesn't have solid cardadvantage and without Captain of the Watch or Daru Warchief, the creatures really aren't all that impressive. I am with RaZe here and advise you to abandon ship if you want to be competative.

@all:The absolute basics of this archetype should at least include 4 Ancient Tomb, 3 or more Chalices, 2 or more Thalia, 4 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull, 1 Umezawa's Jitte and a number of Plains. If your proposed list does not meet these criteria, you are either in the wrong thread or you should just include these.

Barook

04-03-2013, 09:11 AM

@Barook: First off, I would like to thank you for your excellent contributions to the thread and archetype in general. I would like to know how my build fared for you? I feel as though the deck requires a bit of experience, practice if you will, before it starts performing well, so if it did poorly I would encourage you not to give up too soon.

I like the build, hence catching my interest and picking it up. I still got lots of stuff to do (job, final exams, etc.), so still only limited testing.

Trying out -1 Mask of Memory, +1 Elspeth now. That gives one flex spot to the SB.

What are your thoughts on Mentor of the Meek? Could it take Hawk's spot, despite the extra mana investments and lacking flying? The Elspeth engine does look pretty sweet.

MGB

04-03-2013, 11:15 AM

@MGB - I'm a long Goblins player. And other than Preeminent Captain, I don't see how the Soldier build is superior to it. Even Goblins have included Thalia as a splash and it still isn't a consistent enough throughout the field that people would pick it up again in droves like before. I can't talk about everybody else s build because mine is more emphasized on the Taxing part. How does the soldier build compete against SnT, Miracles, Storm? Not to mention Dredge? [Mind you my build is completely dead against dredge imo]. You maybe right that the Soldier build has a better aggro base. But is that what we need to make the deck better across an evolved metagame? I'm not saying it isn't cuz I don't know. But I doubt it is.

Soldiers is more effective against Combo decks than Goblins due to their ability to play both Chalice and Thalia maindeck, obviously, and additional hate such as Suppression Field and Winter Orb, which really slow down Combo and Control decks. The combination of Chalice + Thalia maindeck without any kind of drawbacks (because Thalia is a Soldier that can be made uncounterable by Cavern, which Goblins will always set to "Goblin" instead, and can be drawn by the Soldier ringleader) is obviously very potent vs. Combo whereas Goblins will usually struggle vs. Combo decks. Thalia in Goblin decks is often just shoe-horned in and it plays that way. Whereas in a Soldier deck, she is a core piece of the puzzle and fits in perfectly.

Soldiers have the same explosiveness with the Lackey due to Preeminent Captain. They also have similar late-game inevitability with their own Ringleader in Enlistment Officer. In general, Soldiers are bigger creatures and the Lords have better pump ability, as well, which results in a faster clock most of the time.

The question to me here is, how is the non-Soldier creature base in these decklists posted in this thread any better than the Soldier creature base? As far as I can tell, the only advantages to going non-Soldiers is playing Stoneforge Mystic. I mean, both lists play Thalia and Chalice, which are the main disruption elements. Soldiers can actually "draw" Thalia with their Ringleader (Enlistment Officer), and put her into play for free with their Lackey (Preeeminent Captain), and also make her uncounterable with Cavern of Souls.

Right now, the non-Soldier lists basically play the same Stompy shell (Chalice, Sol-Lands, etc) but play slower, less powerful creatures such as Blade Splicer or Aven Mindcensor. In addition, Restoration Angel is a nice trick on some creatures, but at 3W that can never be reduced like the 4cc+ Soldiers (that are made cheaper by cost-reduction effects or put into play for free with Preeminent Captain) that ability really isn't anything more than cute. Blinking a Blade Splicer to create another 3/3 Golem? A Soldier Lord can give +1/+2 to all creatures in play and take effect immediately. That is far more powerful than merely putting another 3/3 token into play and then waiting another turn for both the Angel and the token to attack.

You can make the argument that playing weak creatures like Aven Mindcensor and Glowrider for their disruption abilities is worthwhile, but if you have 4 Chalice and 4 Thalia maindeck, that is often enough to slow down combo if you have a faster clock (which Soldiers does - much faster than the non-Soldier build). However, against many decks that primarily play creatures, Glowrider will be completely useless and a weak 2/1 body forever, whereas a Soldier in that slot would be a far bigger body (on average they get pumped at least +1/+1 in every game) and a faster clock. Mindcensor is a cute trick against fetchlands, but again, if your opponent successfully plays around the effect or is simply not bothered by it, you are stuck with an incredibly weak body. And of course, post-board Soldiers has access to more hate if need be - you can fill your board with Thorn of Amethyst, Winter Orb (if it's not maindeck), Suppression Field (if it's not maindeck), Cursed Totem, Rest in Peace, etc. I'd much rather play additional Thorn of Amethyst in the sideboard than play Glowrider maindeck.

MGB

04-03-2013, 11:23 AM

@MGB: Merfolk makes giant creatures and has a ton of disruption to beat combo and control alike. Goblins bring tremendous card advantage and selection combined with mana disruption and thereby has a good control and midrange matchups. Elves is blistering fast and very consistent, albeit a bit fragile. Soldier Stompy really doesn't harness any of these advantages. It has in common with the other tribal decks in that it needs a critical number of creatures to resolve and stick before it gets scary but does not harness any of the other outlined advantages. It's slow, doesn't have solid cardadvantage and without Captain of the Watch or Daru Warchief, the creatures really aren't all that impressive. I am with RaZe here and advise you to abandon ship if you want to be competative.

Soldiers makes giant creatures and has similar levels of disruption to beat combo and control alike... Instead of using counterspells, Soldiers uses Chalice of the Void, Thalia, and either Suppression Field or Winter Orb all maindeck (with one of the latter two in the sideboard for additional hate against control).

Soldiers shares some of the Goblin card advantage because they both play Ringleader creatures. It also plays a Lackey creature to create tempo gains. Soldiers also has anti-control mana disruption in the form of Suppression Field and Winter Orb (one of which is in the sideboard, depending on your preferences), which in combination with Chalice and Thalia and a fast clock make the matchup rough for control decks.

It's not "slow" at all, in fact, it's at least 3x as fast as the clock provided by the non-Soldier decklists in this thread.

Countertoplol

04-03-2013, 12:11 PM

MGB

04-03-2013, 12:16 PM

I tried the soldier build with winter orb, but I didn't really like it. I feel like thalia and chalice give you enough time to win games. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know what i'd cut from my list for winter orbs.

Here's the list i'm trying at the moment. I'm curious to know what you guys think.

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Karakas
4 Plains
4 Ancient Den
2 Horizon Canopy

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
3 Captain of the Watch
3 Daru Warchief
4 Ballyrush Banneret
3 Etched Champion
3 Field Marshal
3 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Zhang Fei, Fierce Warrior

SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Intrepid Hero

Nice list.

I personally like Winter Orb because it is a HOUSE against control decks. It makes them operate on one-two mana a turn, which is very hard for a control deck to do, whereas you are playing creatures for free with Captain and cost reduction effects like Ballyrush Banneret and Daru Warchief.

However, it is not that good vs. RUG Delver or any AEther Vial deck. If you don't like Winter Orb maindeck, or you just don't see enough control decks, I'd play Suppression Field as a 4-of in the maindeck, or even Thorn of Amethyst. I'd also keep Winter Orb in the sideboard.

Countertoplol

04-03-2013, 12:21 PM

Nice list.

I personally like Winter Orb because it is a HOUSE against control decks. It makes them operate on one-two mana a turn, which is very hard for a control deck to do, whereas you are playing creatures for free with Captain and cost reduction effects like Ballyrush Banneret and Daru Warchief.

However, it is not that good vs. RUG Delver or any AEther Vial deck. If you don't like Winter Orb maindeck, or you just don't see enough control decks, I'd play Suppression Field as a 4-of in the maindeck, or even Thorn of Amethyst. I'd also keep Winter Orb in the sideboard.

What do you think I should cut for suppression field? Besides the single zhang fei (lol), I feel like all the slots are kinda necessary.

MGB

04-03-2013, 12:36 PM

What do you think I should cut for suppression field? Besides the single zhang fei (lol), I feel like all the slots are kinda necessary.

I personally would cut the Etched Champion just because I played with him for a long time and found that Metalcraft is too hard to consistnetly maintain, especially with all of the targeted removal in the format.

Without metalcraft, he is just a plain 2/2 obviously.

I would also cut two of the lands. If you play 4 Chrome Mox, you don't really need more than 18 lands, and you could actually go down to 16 lands if you are brave.

I would do:

-4 Ancient Den
-3 Etched Champion

+2 Plains
+4 Suppression Field
+1 Jotun Grunt (nice to have maindeck vs. Tarmogoyf decks)

civet five

04-03-2013, 09:48 PM

Soliders also gets Dryad Militant. I find that to be a great addition to the deck - Rest in Peace with a body, and unlike Grunt it goes into effect immediately (Grunt needs several turns to be disruptive, and if that's all you have, they can just wait out the Cumulative Upkeep)

Mantis

04-04-2013, 04:49 AM

@Barook: I would not cut Squadron Hawk from the deck. He fulfills a number of important roles in the deck.
1) It's pure card advantage to help out with Chrome Mox and deal with Liliana of the Veil and Hymn to Tourach (he's also great against Terminus).
2) He allows us to put pressure on, even when the board state looks grim. If mana is not an issue, it's a 4/4 flyer, nothing to scoff at. But then, it can also hold off other huge Goyfs and Knights while still maintaining pressure and allowing Restoration Angel to swing in as well.
3) It's a great equipment carrier. Now I know every creature is great with equipment, but more specifically it's not a terrible deal to have it StPed or Bolted when attaching an equpment since you have three others waiting. While the opponent can thus still gain tempo out of their removal spells, at least not card parity. For example, having a Mirran Crusader with Jitte equipped StPed or Bolted is just a terrible situation since they gained a ton of tempo and also kept card parity.

Mentor of the Meek looks appealing, but it's 2/2 body is really fragile and if he dies you are left with nothing. With this assumption, you need 1 draw to at least have card parity and 2 draws before you gain advantage. That's 5 mana spent already! With Elspeth and random creature out, I feel as if you are in a fairly good position already and the Mentor/Elspeth engine is just win more. I generally think it's a tad too slow in a format where everything revolves around tempo and not necessarily card advantage. These conclusions came from a minimal amount of testing and a lot of theorycrafting, thus perhaps it deserves a second look. Let me know how it works out for you guys if anyone plans on trying it out.

Barook

04-04-2013, 05:35 AM

@Mantis: Thanks for the insight.

How do you feel about the Sneak & Show matchup? It doesn't feel like a bad matchup, but more like an arms race since they have their stupid "I win" cards (especially when they're on the play) and I'm always on the edge of my seat while playing against it.

What are bad cards/matchups in general for the deck? What decks does it perform good against?

On a different note: Elspeth is the real deal. 3 copies would probably push it, but 2 copies are definitely a keeper. When she resolves, it normally comes down to this:

a) You win the game within a very few turns or
b) you lose because your board position was already fubar anyway.

Flinging Batterskulls at your opponent is just great.

On the topic of Batterskull:
I feel there might be a need for a second one, at least in the SB. It just hurts in certain matchups when they dealt with it e.g. via discard and you're not able to get a replacement, despite a ridiculous amount of search options.

Mantis

04-04-2013, 07:53 AM

Sneak and Show is just an absurd deck that can randomly win against every deck out there. Not much we can do about a turn 1 Show and Tell into Griselbrand for example. That said, I feel as though we have the tools to beat it. Phyrexian Revoker can name both Sneak Attack or Griselbrand and can be reset by Restoration Angel. Show and Tell is quite risky for them to resolve because there is a good chance we are sandbagging Karakas or Mangara. Thalia, Wasteland and Chalice can slow them down a bit too. Postboard Thorn comes in and that together with Thalia and Chalice makes it really difficult for them to sculpt a hand with enough mana to resolve Sneak Attack/Show and Tell, have the combo pieces in hand and fight off your potential hate (Mangara/Karakas/Revoker).

Jund appears to be our most difficult matchup. Every card they have is really good against us. Goyf is huge and pretty much makes our non flying creatures obsolete. Recurring Punishing Fires deal with SFM and Mangara. Hymn can be backbreaking and if Dark Confidant sticks around we will be buried under card advantage. Then they have Abrupt Decay which can either target Chalice if they have a lot of 1 CMC spells or hit SFM/Mangara/Jitte. Postboard they usually have singletons of Deed, Maelstrom Pulse and Ancient Grudge which hurt. Squadron Hawk is essential in this matchup as it provides chump blockers and negates Lili and Hymn to some extent. I think the correct way to sideboard against them is actually to get rid off Thalia and Chalice and bring in STP and Rest in Peace. I recently added a Relic of Progenitus over the fourth RiP as it decreases the chances of having multiple dead RiPs. If sideboard space weren't as tight I'd probably include a couple of Leyline of Sanctities to negate their discard and Lili's.

I always thought EsperBlade was a walk in the park untill I sat down and tested against a good player and he demolished me like 4-1 in games or something. It felt like whoever could stick Jitte would end up winning the game and they have plenty ways to negate our Jitte and have Brainstorm and SFM to search up theirs. This observation prompted me to add the 3rd Jitte and Phyrexian Revoker to have additional ways to win the Jitte war. The addition of Elspeth probably shores up both bad matchups quite a bit; I am going to cut both Mirran Crusaders to add 2 copies.

Merfolk could be quite a problematic matchup as well but that deck is virtually dead and I haven't playtested against it all that much so I'm not sure.

I feel pretty confident going up against any other deck though and as my tournament report shows I actually beat a Jund player. The reason I favor myself against decks like Elves, Affinity, Goblins and Maverick is that the deck is built around getting a fast Jitte active. RUG Delver is a pretty easy win because there are quite a few cards in our deck which straight up kill them if they have no way of dealing with it (Chalice, RiP, SFM). Combo is easy because of the plentiful lock pieces. Miscellaneous decks can be beat by virtue of Mangara (Enchantress, WalkerStax, Cloudpost, 43 Lands etc.). If there are a lot of BUG decks present, packing a couple of Mirran Crusaders is advisable as Mirran is GG against them.

MGB

04-05-2013, 11:02 AM

The problem I have with cards like Aven Mindcensor, Glowrider, and Phyrexian Revoker is basically that: in the majority of your games, they are nothing more than overcosted 2/1s. First of all, to be effective, each card has to be playing against a deck that plays the type of cards these creatures react to. Glowrider is all but useless except as a 2/1 body against most aggro decks, for example. Aven Mindcensor is nothing more than a 2/1 flier against a deck with a minimal number of fetchlands.

And even against decks they do affect heavily, the situation has to be right, and the timing has to be right, for them to avoid irrelevancy as disruption elements. For example: Aven Mindcensor is disruptive vs. decks packing fetchlands, but if you play Mindcensor on turn 4 after opponent has already played several fetchlands and built his manabase, often times the ability will not be relevant enough to affect him. Similarly, Glowrider can tax a control player but if you are topdecking him onto a mid/late-game board in which the control player has quite a bit of mana on the board, he can be nearly irrelevant even in a matchup specifically made for his appearance.

Thalia has this same problem, but A.) she is more efficiently costed at 1W instead of 2W for Glowrider and B.) she has a more relevant combat ability. And in a Soldier deck shell, she is often 3/2 or bigger on the battlefield due to Lord pumps, whereas in the non-Soldier shell she is always a weak 2/1, and nothing more than a 2/1 against most aggro decks.

In Vintage, creatures such as Glowrider and Mindcensor are automatically better than anything Soldiers can play simply because disruption is king in that format. If a creature isn't A.) a draw engine or B.) disruptive in some way then that creature is practically irrelevant in Vintage. However, Legacy is not nearly as overrun by fast mana and powerful spells. Aggro has a much stronger presence in this format. Thus, weak creatures with disruptive abilities can be good, but can also be big liabilities. Glowrider and Mindcensor are exactly these types of creatures. Thalia is not this way in a Soldier deck because even when her ability is irrelevant, she is pumped by Lords, and drawn by Enlistment Officer, and cheated into play by Preeminent Captain.

Lastly, in Legacy, there is not such a great premium on heavy disruption of the opponent. Even against Legacy combo and control decks, 4 Thalia and 4 Chalice maindeck, alongside either Suppression Field or Winter Orb, is often enough to slow down control and combo in G1, especially with a fast aggro clock. In Vintage, ALL of a creature decks' resources must be funneled toward disruption of the opponent. In Legacy, it is not necessary. Mindcensor and Glowrider are often overkill in the relevant matchups, and severe liabilities against those decks that don't care about their disruptive abilities.

MGB

04-05-2013, 11:13 AM

Similarly, cards like Blade Splicer and Restoration Angel appear to be good on the surface, but upon second glance, are overcosted for their abilities.

Blade Splicer is a functionally a 3/3 for 3 mana unless you can blink him with the Angel, when he duplicates himself. But in most games, you won't be blinking him. So he's just a pretty mediocre body for 3 mana, and is outclassed by what Soldiers offers in terms of creature beef.

Restoration Angel is only truly effective if you are blinking a creature with a CITP ability. If you are not doing this, then she is a 3/4 flier for 4 mana, which is mediocre at best in this format. To really use her effectively, your entire creature base has to be filled with CITP creatures that do powerful things with their abilities, but in this deck, you can, at most, have guys like Blade Splicer and Stoneforge Mystic. That's 8 out of 60 cards in the deck. Those situations in which Angel becomes more effective than a 3/4 flier for 4 mana are not as common when you do not devote your deck to CITP creatures. And even when she does blink a Blade Splicer, for example... that play is the pinnacle of Angel's existence and yet you are left with a 3/4 flier and a 3/3 for 4 mana. Good, but not game-breaking or even a stellar play.

Unless you want Stoneforge Mystic -> Batterskull, or you expect to see almost nothing but combo in your metagame, I don't see why you'd ever want to play the Glowrider/Mindcensor/Blade Splicer/Restoration Angel package on top of the other stuff (Chalice, Thalia, etc) instead of the Soldier creature base. Soldiers give you A.) a faster clock against control and combo and typically *enough* disruption through the use of Chalice, Thalia, and Suppression Field or Winter Orb and B.) more / better game against aggro decks.

eq.firemind

04-05-2013, 11:43 AM

Restoration Angel has flash. You can save your guys from targeted removal and ambush-block smaller attackers to gain card advantage.

MGB

04-05-2013, 01:05 PM

Restoration Angel has flash. You can save your guys from targeted removal and ambush-block smaller attackers to gain card advantage.

That's good, but not great. If you are paying 4 mana to give temporary shroud, and all you have left is a 3/4 flier, then that is still a pretty average play. You are effectively casting Mage's Guile for 3W and getting a 3/4 flier. Even if you ignore that Guile is vastly overcosted at 1U, that leaves you with 2 mana for a 3/4 flier. Good, but not great in this format. Compare that to Serra Avenger which is barely played.

In this format, "smaller attackers" is often a 3/4 Goyf instead of a 4/4 Batterskull...

Barook

04-05-2013, 01:51 PM

That's good, but not great. If you are paying 4 mana to give temporary shroud, and all you have left is a 3/4 flier, then that is still a pretty average play. You are effectively casting Mage's Guile for 3W and getting a 3/4 flier. Even if you ignore that Guile is vastly overcosted at 1U, that leaves you with 2 mana for a 3/4 flier. Good, but not great in this format. Compare that to Serra Avenger which is barely played.

In this format, "smaller attackers" is often a 3/4 Goyf instead of a 4/4 Batterskull...
Avenger dies to Bolt and Mongoose, among other things, while Restoration Angel survives. Big difference.

That said, why don't you open your own thread for the soldier build? The builds are different enough to justify a own thread. No need to for pointless arguments.

Mantis

04-05-2013, 08:57 PM

Avenger dies to Bolt and Mongoose, among other things, while Restoration Angel survives. Big difference.

That said, why don't you open your own thread for the soldier build? The builds are different enough to justify a own thread. No need to for pointless arguments.
He already did: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23958-Soldier-Stompy-(Tribal-Tomb-Based-Aggro)&highlight=soldier+stompy

Mantis

04-08-2013, 03:56 PM

Elspeth is really strong in testing, I think 3 is the right number. 4 is probably pushing it.

Parallax Wave seems like an interesting card to mention. Not sure if it's good enough, but it has a few interesting synergies with SFM, Mangara and Rest Angel. Then it also protects your board from removal, even mass removal and can stall the opponent for a while. I will probably give it a whirl.

Barook

04-11-2013, 03:33 PM

Elspeth is really strong in testing, I think 3 is the right number. 4 is probably pushing it.

What does your current list look like?

Mantis

04-12-2013, 05:28 AM

// Lands
3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
12 [RAV] Plains (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [AVR] Restoration Angel
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [FNM] Squadron Hawk
2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Sword of War and Peace
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Parallax Wave

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [A] Armageddon
SB: 1 Parallax Wave

Did not change much, -1 City of Traitors +1 Plains, -1 Exalted Angel, -1 Revoker, -2 Mirran crusader, +3 Elspeth +1 P Wave, SB -1 RiP, -1 Revoker +1 Wave, +1 Relic

Although the deck definately has some good matchups, I'm worried about Jund and EsperBlade which appear to be the most popular and best performing deck choices at the moment. Merfolk also appears to be making a comeback and that is just an uphill battle with so little creature removal. Despite a lot of good matchup, the deck seems rather poorly positioned right now.

Barook

04-13-2013, 10:19 AM

Although the deck definately has some good matchups, I'm worried about Jund and EsperBlade which appear to be the most popular and best performing deck choices at the moment. Merfolk also appears to be making a comeback and that is just an uphill battle with so little creature removal. Despite a lot of good matchup, the deck seems rather poorly positioned right now.
What do you think are the main problems in these matchups?

From what I've seen so far, Jace/Liliana and Punishing Fire are the worst offenders.

Merfolk mainly comes down to the point whether you can stick an early equipment to decimate their forces or not.

Edit: Imho, two of the main problems, aside from Stompy inconsistency, are

1) lack of powerful T1 plays aside from the occasional Mox play or T1 CotV
2) being slow and needing several turns to build up.

For now, I'm replacing the Hawks with Blade Splicers and see how it goes.

I'm also considering adding back a few (2-3 copies) of Aether Vial, despite the Nonbo with CotV. It was pretty good in testing back then, has nice synergy with Mangara and should be pretty good with Restoration Angel as well. It gave me a powerful T1 play, helps with manascrews allows to play equipment more aggressively since you can drop your creatures for free. It also somewhat helps to handle enemy Planeswalkers.

guybrush3

04-18-2013, 12:58 PM

i would def add chalice of the void and what about meddling mage?

Mantis

04-23-2013, 05:43 AM

I have some doubts concerning the effectiveness of Chalice of the Void. Against Tempo Thresh, Miracles, Stoneblade and every combo deck it's very strong, but vs. Jund, Goblins, Merfolk, Maverick, Junk, BUG etc. it's actually a weak card and I board it out in those matchups. It's quite paradoxical that a card which the entire deck is built around and that restricts our deckdesign to get boarded out in a large number of matchups. Generally, I felt like the white one drops were all fairly weak in our strategy. STP and Mother of Runes are decent, but when you are playing Chrome Mox you have to play high impact cards as you can't win on card parity anymore. However, Quest for the Holy Relic in combination with Ranger of Eos and Mother of Runes caught my eye. A creature equipped with Argentum Armor and protected by Mom seems hard to beat.

Here is a rough draft of what I'm proposing:
11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
3 Karakas

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Quest for the Holy Relic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Ranger of Eos
4 Restoration Angel
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Figure of Destiny
2 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Argentum Armor

SB:
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus

You need a lot of creatures to make Quest work, but there are quite a few cute interactions that activate it quicker. Ranger of Eos provides 3 counters, Squadron Hawk 4 and then we have Isamaru / Thalia + Karakas to ramp up the counters. Mother of Runes protects our equipped creature and Ranger for 2 Mom's is just good in general. If you only have Ranger you can always get Isamaru + Wayfarer to grab Karakas and thereby trigger it.

In summary: with this post I would like to address two points, firstly what is your view on Chalice and secondly what do you think about Quest for the Holy Relic?

Tao

04-23-2013, 06:50 AM

I have experimented quite a lot recently with Ancient Tomb + Thalia lists. I am not there yet to post a list but I do have a feeling that there is a great deck possible.

For your questions:
I had the same thoughts about Chalice of the Void. It doesn't work like in Staxx or Dragon Stompy where you have additional disruption to back it up and lock them out. You just play it and hope they have a bunch of CC1 cards that they haven't played yet. It is a bad topdeck, it is bad in multiples (setting it on 2 is not good for you either), it doesn't impact the board, there are plenty of decks that don't care too much about Chalice, then there is Abrupt Decay and last but not least you want to play Mother of Runes. Chalice wins games on its own, but from my experience not enough to be worth the burden. I am not sure about Chalice because it is certainly powerful, but that were my thoughts when I played with it. I was never really impressed.

Quest of the Holy Relic is not good enough I think. You fall too far behind against decks like Jund or when you spend mana and a card on a do-nothing on turn 1 and they go Deathrite or Delver. Also drawing Argentum Armor must feel bad.

jake1er

08-25-2013, 06:19 PM

I've been playing this deck for a while now with quite a bit of success. Here is what I've been running:

8 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Exalted Angel

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Armageddon

3 Oblivion Ring

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Ghostly Prison
SB: 2 Spellskite
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I really like this deck because it punishes a ton of popular archetypes at the moment.

You have main deck hate against tempo, combo and storm in thalia+cotv+phyrexian revoker+aven mindscensor. Mirran crusader is amazing against anything running abrupt decays. Being able to get through/block a goyf or kotr is a huge bonus. Phyrexian revoker has been really good for me. He shuts down an early DRS, turns off planeswalkers, halts lotus petals/mox diamonds/LED's, neuters griselbrand, hoses equipment and stuffs a ton of niche cards. Elspeth is for control match ups and sneaking in a ton of damage to close a game out quickly. Mirran crusader into elspeth is awesome when it happens. Aven mindscensor can be brutal T2 in resp to a fetch land. A flying body that flashes in with an ability that punishes a ton of legacy decks at the same time, sign me up. SFM is just an additional threat, a premier one at that. Chalice is one hell of a hate card, I usually find myself setting this at 1 in unknown match ups. Blanking legacys efficient cantrips, removal, creatures and discard really helps your chances of coming out on top.

Now for some discussion about some of the more odd choices.

Oblivion ring is main decked for the omnitell match up which can be difficult. O-ring works well with chalice and being able to target any permanent has proved very useful. I find with the fast mana in the deck the 2W casting cost hasn't been too much of an issue. There are more efficient removal spells but like I said, this helps out a bad match up g1, still is castable and targets almost anything. Even though I like O-ring and its versatility it is probably my most side boarded card after g1 followed by armageddon.

Armageddon + mox's + flagstones of trokair. I think the geddon is the first thing I'd change about the deck. Sometimes its unreal and closes out games in a hurry other times it's a dead card which is only useful as mox food. If you're ahead and drop a timely armageddon it will keep you on top long enough to win a vast majority of the time, which is something I find valuable in this deck.

Exalted angel... I'm just testing this in the place of a 4th thalia as I think 3 is the right number for her. The inclusion of chalice and revoker are the reason for dropping to 3.

Sideboard:
SB: 4 Rest in Peace (Fights DRS, goyf, threshold, PiF, crucible, dredge, reanimator, punishing fire etc. I love having 4 of this card ready to side in)
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst (This is obviously good for storm. I side it in for tempo match ups too.)
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares (Efficient, usually only comes in if I side out chalice or have a match up where I need T1 removal)
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte (Two is better than one)
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist (Storm)
SB: 1 Ghostly Prison (Anything aggro)
SB: 2 Spellskite (Burn, removal heavy decks and has some in really handy vs some niche archetypes like infect)
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice (Another tool to combat dedicated aggro decks like goblins)

I have played my fair share of stompyish decks and consistency is always an issue. I personally find that issue to be much less of a factor in this deck. Any comments/suggestions for improving it would be welcome.

Mantis

09-22-2013, 02:45 PM

jake1er: Your list is quite similar to mine, but I can echo your sentiments on Armageddon. I too, found it underwhelming. In a different metagame with a lot of grindy control decks it could be very good; deploy a threat and a Mox/Flagstones; Armageddon and win from there. In this tempo metagame, we often are the ones that need to stabilize. Armageddon hampers our gameplan then. Instead of O Ring I can recommend the combo of Restoration Angel and Mangara (and Karakas).

I have been experimenting a bit more and came to the conclusion that I was losing to decks with a lot of removal too often. This seems obvious since decks like Jund and Goblins are designed to stomp all over other creature decks. For a long time I did not know how to fix this problem and disregarded the deck. Then a buddy of mine wanted to borrow my Cavern of Souls and suddenly it clicked; if I play Cavern of Souls I can play Mother of Runes and Chalice in the same deck! I quickly cut the Revokers, which are terrible against removal by the way and Mom is in the deck. Preliminary results are promising, but I have to get in more testing to be certain.

klaus

09-24-2013, 08:54 AM

a buddy of mine wanted to borrow my Cavern of Souls and suddenly it clicked; if I play Cavern of Souls I can play Mother of Runes and Chalice in the same deck!
Nice find :cool:

Mantis

12-09-2013, 06:14 PM

So I'm still tweaking the deck and finally got to play it a tournament. I went 4-0 winning 50 euro's in store credit with the following list:

3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
12 [RAV] Plains (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [AVR] Restoration Angel
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [FNM] Squadron Hawk
3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Sword of War and Peace
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Mangara of Corondor

Mikaeus is the latest addition, pretty sweet with Karakas and Squadron Hawk. It's flexible and both good in the early and lategame.

A quick match report:
Match 1 vs. BUGr Nic Fit
Game 1: I have to mull to 5 and he has to mull to 6. Im on the play and a Squadron Hawk from my side undoes a bit of the damage the mulligan did. I get two copies into play and he Therapies the other 2 away using Veteran Explorer to sac after he did a turn one Therapy on SFM after I stupidly flipped it over during shuffling. I then find a SFM and am lucky enough that he doesn't have a Therapy so I can get Batterskull into play the next turn. I'm now dealing him 6 damage per turn and he has to use Pernicious Deed. The Batterskull lives and a different creature picks it up, he uses Witness to get back Deed, but 2 Explorers gave me so much mana that I can just keep picking it up. A Restoration suited up with Batterskull finishes the job after forcing him to chump with a Consecrated Sphinx.

Game 2: I board out the Chalices and in comes the GY hate. He has to mull to 4 while I stay on a mediocre 7. Once again Squadron Hawk is the hero, this time teaming up with Mikaeus, Sword of War and Peace and Baterskull to make huge flying creatures. He once again has to chump with the Consecrated Sphinx but that doesn't save him.

Match 2 vs Junk:
Game 1 he gets Scavenging Ooze out with various removal spells and then manages to stick a Jitte with SFM. I have a Thalia paired with a Karakas to prevent the tokens on Jitte. He suits up the SFM with Jitte and attacks right into the Thalia, bad mistake by him. I have Phyrexian Revoker on Ooze and then one on Jitte I believe. Multiple Hawks and Restoration Angel beat him down in the air.

Game 2: He plays Top go and I get a bizarre start of Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox remove Hawk, play my second Hawk and search up the remaining two, play another Mox and play one of the Hawks all on turn 1. He plays Hymn to Tourach leaving me with 4 mana, 2 Hawks and a Restoration Angel in hand. I draw a Mikaeus and play it for X=3. He plays SFM searching Batterskull. I draw another Restoration Angel and my airforce beats him down while I avoid the lifelink lifegain by flashing out a Hawk with Angel after blocking duties.

Match 3 vs Death and Taxes:
Game 1: Im on the play and start with turn 1 Chalice for 1. This is a huge blow to him and he draws a ton of land, while I just assemble an army of flyers.
Game 2: I side out my Chalice since it's prone to Flickerwisp, he is on the play and I want to side in StP. He leads off with Mother, I just lay a Plains. He plays Revoker and names Chrome Mox. I get down Thalia and Revoker on Mother of Runes. He then gets a Jitte down and equips Mom with it, I have STP for it. After that he plays an Aven Mindcensor and suits it up with Jitte. I flash out the Revoker with Restoration Angel, name Jitte and block the Mindcensor. He never recovers afterwards.

Match 4 vs Sneak and Show:
Game 1: I lose the roll and he leads with Volcanic, Ponder. I'm thinking of Sneak and Show but Im not really sure, it could be anything. I play land go. He plays a second Volcanic and Ponders again. I play Waste one of his Volcs. He then plays Show and Tel off City of Traitors. I don't have Karakas in hand but do have a Mangara so I might still be fine. He puts in Griselbrand and passes the turn. On my turn I play a Revoker but he draws 7 and FoWs. On his turn he plays Petal, taps his lands and sacs the Petal, plays fetch afterwards a Sneak Attack. The City gets binned and he tries to crack the fetch. I now have the hardest decision of the evening figuring out what to do with Mangara: my only out to this situation is either he has no second creature and is just bluffing with the Sneak Attack or I draw Karakas on my following turn. I put him on a creature 100% and even if he does not have it I think he will draw it off Griselbrand so I Mangara the Sneak Attack in resp to the fetch activation. He only has 2 lands and Grisel in play now and attacks me. On my turn I rip Karakas, play some guys and somehow win from there. Awesome game!

Game 2: He has to mull to 6. He leads off with fetchland go. I get land, chrome mox and Thalia on turn 1. On his next turn he plays another fetch, cracks them both and plays a cantrip. I attack him and play SFM for Sword of War and Peace. He plays Ancient Tomb and Show and Tell into Griselbrand and I put Mirran Crusader into play. He is now on 14. On my turn I play my fourth mana source, activate SFM to put into play the Sword equip it to Crusader and swing with only him past his Griselbrand due to pro black for exactly 14 due to his 3 cards in hand!!!

Sick games!
So I go 8-0 in games and so does my buddy Duncan :).

This deck holds promise and I would recommend it to anyone who is able to put in the time to learn the deck properly. It's similar to Death and Taxes in that it looks like a pile, but performs very well in the right hands. I wouldn't change a thing in my 75 right now.

klaus

12-10-2013, 10:36 AM

I now have the hardest decision of the evening figuring out what to do with Mangara: my only out to this situation is either he has no second creature and is just bluffing with the Sneak Attack or I draw Karakas on my following turn. I put him on a creature 100% and even if he does not have it I think he will draw it off Griselbrand so I Mangara the Sneak Attack in resp to the fetch activation. He only has 2 lands and Grisel in play now and attacks me. On my turn I rip Karakas, play some guys and somehow win from there. Awesome game!

Gratz on the strong finish!

As for the scenario above: couldn't just have responded to Mangara on Sneak by activating Griselbrand and activate Sneak? Thinking about it - he probably didn't have :r: available?

Mantis

12-12-2013, 04:56 PM

Thanks klaus!

Indeed he played the sneak attack and only had a Scalding Tarn for mana. When he cracked it, I responded by exiling the enchantment. Poor play on his part, but I was still happy with how I played that game out.

AlbyLegacy

01-11-2014, 05:08 PM

MTG Legacy: Goblins VS Death & Taxes

Game 1 http://youtu.be/rwE7gsO7ekg

Game 2 http://youtu.be/N8Wuv8MAaFY

Game 3 http://youtu.be/MEi9RMpxTgY

I will be posting my videos.

youtube.com/albylegacy

Mantis

01-30-2014, 11:01 AM

In case anyone is interested, I played this deck in two Legacy tournaments this weekend. Split a 19 player tournament in the finals with my buddy Duncan (going 6-0 over the course of the day) and went 3-1 in sunday evening Legacy. Played against a wide range of decks, but this deck seems to have an answer to everything as long as you play patiently, don't walk into Daze or Spell Pierce when not under pressure and mulligan correctly. I especially like Mikeaus, since he allows you to play around Daze and Lightning Bolt if needed and can clog up the ground while the Squadron Hawks race in the air.

Over the course of the weekend this were my matchups:
2-1 against All spells with transformational sideboard to Belcher, 2-0 against BG Tempo, 2-0 against a BUGR deck, 2-0 vs. BUG, 2-0 vs. Dragon/Goblin Stompy, scoop to my buddy, then 2-0 against BUG.
Other tournament: 2-0 against EsperBlade (this is one of the few bad matchups I feel), 1-2 against Sneak and Show (just didn't get my draws), 2-1 against Belcher, 2-0 against UWR (won game 1 after a mull to 5, just by playing around all of his counters while he had no pressure and had to spend two removal spells on SFM that netted me some sweet CA).

With the upcoming Born of the Gods, this deck gets two really nice goodies. I will probably make room for 1 Brimaz and 2 or 3 Spirit of the Light, which should improve the blue matchups somewhat.

Rubenito

01-30-2014, 12:11 PM

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=772564 hey mantis, sounds like a cool list, i only was wandering how you had mirran crusader in play, i don't see it in your list, please do updates on how spirit of the labyrinth is working out!

Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met behulp van Tapatalk

Mantis

01-30-2014, 01:51 PM

Thanks, will do! I see that there are only 58 cards in that list, the two remaining slots were Mirran Crusader!

Secretly.A.Bee

02-04-2014, 05:25 PM

MGB

05-12-2014, 02:06 AM

Here's an idea I had for this type of deck. I was inspired by the ultra-hate version of Death n Taxes that's being played now with maximum hate-bears.

This takes that deck and adds Tomb+Chalice+Suppression Field instead of using the Wasteland/Port/Vial elements. Which would make it a Tax & Taxes deck, right?

8 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Karakas

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Winter Orb

4 Suppression Field

4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
3 Baneslayer Angel
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

SB:

4 Rest in Peace
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thorn of Amethyst

The key here is that this is just *packed* with hate for current Legacy decks. It completely HATES on fetchlands and stuff like Deathrite Shaman and Stoneforge Mystic. Suppression Field + Winter Orb is almost a lock vs many decks in this format. Thalia + Field or Orb is very good too. Arbiter and Field give you consistent T1 ( with Mox) / T2 hate for fetchlands. The creatures that aren't hatebears are in here as pure combat fat.

I think playing Chalice and Field maindeck might actually be stronger than playing Port/Wasteland/Vial. This deck has better game vs. combo than traditional Death n Taxes.