Doomsday Combo/ Control?

[Begle1]

I'm tired of having my Reanimator deck face an influx of RUG counterspells, graveyard hate and now Show and Tell hate. So I decided to go the Doomsday route.

And now I'm wondering why I can't find decklists similar to mine. Surely not too bad an idea?


The basic combo is to Doomsday into a Shelldock Isle and use the Isle to drop an Emrakul, Ulamog, Progenitus or other finisher. Once you play Doomsday the combo is very hard to disrupt, it doesn't utilize the graveyard and it takes up very few slots in the deck. Amulet of Vigor is tech for when you need to sandbag and have extra mana by the time you cast Doomsday.

My thought for the rest of the deck is disruption and control spells; blue counterspells to keep faster combos from beating me and try to slow down very fast aggro strategies and black discard to ensure that I can cast Doomsday without it getting countered.

Any suggestions on how to make it better, what I'm obviously missing before I take it to my LGS and it becomes another "Well, it looked good on paper" experience?

In particular, I don't know if there's a way to make it less vulnerable to land destruction.

I'm torn on Dark Rituals; I ended up not using them in Reanimator because they were a liability against control and I didn't typically need the speed against aggro or other combo decks, but since this combo is a turn or two slower (Dark Ritual into a Doomsday on turn one or two means you cast Emrakul turn three or four; hardcast Doomsday on turn three and Emrakul comes out turn five at the soonest) I think they might be worthy.

I'm also really conflicted on the six blue control slots other than Force of Will. All I know is that whatever cards go in there, they need to be blue...

Doomsday, Take 1
Combo (10):
4x Doomsday
2x Shelldock Isle
1x Progenitus
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Amulet of Vigor

Combo Glue (10):
4x Brainstorm
3x Lim-Dul's Vault
3x Dark Ritual

Black Control (8):
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress

Blue Control (10):
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Spell Pierce

Mana (22):
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
3x Sunken Ruins
3x Underground River
6x Swamp
2x Island



Sideboard (15):
1x Empyrial Archangel (Best target to grab against Burn, which otherwise may be a bit too fast?)
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (My theory is it might have merit against Show and Tell.)
4x Darkness (Slows down any faster creature-based strategy for a turn or two before Emrakul comes out to play. I wonder if Massacre wouldn't be a better option?)
4x Leyline of the Void (Dredge is usually a faster deck, but has no disruption for my combo so I keep the Rituals in, so I don't need to mulligan too hard for the leyline since I can dig for it and cast it off a Ritual.)
3x Extirpate (Replaces Dark Ritual against heavy counterspells, and it hits Wastelands.)
2x Surgical Extraction (Same as Extirpate.)


Thanks for any thoughts.

[Chikenbok]

Most people who played DD back in the day automatically included Shelldock/Emmy in the plan. However, if you're sick of RUG and its counterspells.. try resolving a doomsday into Shell + Emmy with stifle and wasteland.

But, just so you know you're not alone:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=13&iddeck=38150

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=33&iddeck=222

etc.

[lochlan]

If you add Tendrils and some acceleration this deck is called Rev614, which was invented by emidln. I'm not sure about the origins of the more controlling lists.

But yeah this deck had decent results around 2010 and then hasn't seen any play at all since then. Somebody played this a few months ago at my store and crushed, it's a really powerful deck--although I think that now that everybody knows O.Ring hoses S&T and Goblins might be playing Angel of Despair (!!!) this deck probably isn't the best choice at the moment. Doomsday->Shelldock is still fine, but Show and Tell is much weaker now than it has been recently.

I would personally play Cloud of Faeries in this deck, probably in the main--I'm pretty sure it's just better than Amulet of Vigor. The second Shelldock Isle also seems pretty unnecessary since it's only useful off Doomsday anyway.

[Lemnear]

I recommend reading Stephen Menendians Take on Legacy doomsday and the Laboratory maniac kill which dodges a Lot of hate unlike the shelldock- or Storm-variants.

It easily stacks up several draw-trigger to dodge creature removal and can kill turn 2 or the Turn you resolve doomsday which the shelldock-variant is unable to do. The Compact combo Engine leaves a shitload of Free deckspace for control/carddraw Even if I disagree with the filler of these Spots Stephen suggested. Topic: Cabal Ritual vs. Lotus Petal / confidants / countersuit / etc.

[lochlan]

I recommend reading Stephen Menendians Take on Legacy doomsday and the Laboratory maniac kill which dodges a Lot of hate unlike the shelldock- or Storm-variants.

Isn't the Unearth line vulnerable to graveyard hate, which everybody runs?


and can kill turn 2

Despite the critical mass of cantrips, with only 4x 3-mana win conditions in the deck I don't think you'll be winning on your second turn very frequently.


or the Turn you resolve doomsday which the shelldock-variant is unable to do

Huh? Just untap Shelldock Isle with Cloud of Faeries (or have Amulet of Vigor in play like the OP) and you don't have to pass the turn.

[EDIT: @ the OP, you probably should have more ways to draw into your pile once you resolve DD.]


The Compact combo Engine leaves a shitload of Free deckspace for control/carddraw

More like the too-small combo engine makes it easy to cantrip into irrelevant control/card draw without finding a Doomsday. This is only speculation, but I suspect Menedian's list would probably benefit from reducing the permission and/or cantrip packages and adding some LDVs.

[GoblinSettler]

I recommend reading Stephen Menendians Take on Legacy doomsday and the Laboratory maniac kill which dodges a Lot of hate unlike the shelldock- or Storm-variants.

It easily stacks up several draw-trigger to dodge creature removal and can kill turn 2 or the Turn you resolve doomsday which the shelldock-variant is unable to do. The Compact combo Engine leaves a shitload of Free deckspace for control/carddraw Even if I disagree with the filler of these Spots Stephen suggested. Topic: Cabal Ritual vs. Lotus Petal / confidants / countersuit / etc.

Cabal Ritual occasionally gives you BBBBB. Cabal ritual can give you UBBB from UUB. Cabal Ritual mana must be used on the turn it is played.

Lotus petal can provide U if needed. Lotus petal is easier to stick in your Doomsday pile if you ever need mana. Land+Lotus Petal+Dark Ritual let's you cast Doomsday with Spell Pierce up on turn one for a pass the turn pile.

I've been running Lotus Petal. It seems slightly more versatile, enough to give it the edge. But I had not considered the UUB->UBBB angle before typing up this post. Fetching basics before pulling the trigger on the combo, I have UUB in play more often than UBB. Going back to Cabal Ritual.

[GoblinSettler]

More like the too-small combo engine makes it easy to cantrip into irrelevant control/card draw without finding a Doomsday. This is only speculation, but I suspect Menedian's list would probably benefit from reducing the permission and/or cantrip packages and adding some LDVs.

Hmm. Lim-Dul's Vault seems worth a try. I want more ways to get at Doomsday.

I also want to try Burning Wish in a UBr list.

[John Cox]

Isn't the Unearth line vulnerable to graveyard hate, which everybody runs?


The idea behind Stephen Menendian's doomsday is that you stack draw triggers to win, so if your going to get bolted or crypted you just draw a card in response and win.


Hmm. Lim-Dul's Vault seems worth a try. I want more ways to get at Doomsday.

I also want to try Burning Wish in a UBr list.

If you go the burning wish route you should really look up rev614 your deck is almost the same.

[cuthbertthecat]

The Storm Doomsday deck is very powerful, resiliant, and challenging which is pretty cool. However, if you're just looking for free wins, shitting out an Emrakul ASAP is probably better, and a strategy beter reserved for some Show and Tell variant.

[Lemnear]

Isn't the Unearth line vulnerable to graveyard hate, which everybody runs?

Despite the critical mass of cantrips, with only 4x 3-mana win conditions in the deck I don't think you'll be winning on your second turn very frequently.

Huh? Just untap Shelldock Isle with Cloud of Faeries (or have Amulet of Vigor in play like the OP) and you don't have to pass the turn.

[EDIT: @ the OP, you probably should have more ways to draw into your pile once you resolve DD.]

More like the too-small combo engine makes it easy to cantrip into irrelevant control/card draw without finding a Doomsday. This is only speculation, but I suspect Menedian's list would probably benefit from reducing the permission and/or cantrip packages and adding some LDVs.

You simply create a hardcasting stack instead of the unearth-route. 3 mana hardcasting is different than casting Emrakul.

Shelldock -> Cloud needs 2 mana + shelldock just to put the Spaghetti monster into play, where the Lab maniac just wins off UB. remind you have to draw cloud AND shelldock Post doomsday in this case too but adding more ways to draw into the pile would be the First step

You have a lot of space for filtering. Running Ponder, LDV, preordain or others are required to find one of the 4 doomsdays which is the main goal of the deck and likely more useful than filling the deck with questionable choices like Divert. This are the changes I was talking about before.



@cuth

Storm has more trouble with Thalia, lifegain and taxing effects in general than Maniac. Lab Maniac Doomsday has about 5 Basic piles that can Deal with basically any Board state. Storm doomsday pilots have to remember at least 5x more stacks for that. I do not recommend this for any tournament since a mistake somewhere looses the game with Storm builds.

@GoblinSettler

I Stick to Petal. The reason is easy. It allows me to create more doomsday stacks and i can use it to cast spell Pierce off it to protect a Turn 1-2 doomsday while providing the Same 1-mana-boost in the Esels Game. I rarely faced any Situation in which I needed the threshold-mana to this point especially since the Goal is to Win during the First 4 turns which is still Out of the threshold range in this Deck.

Burning wish isn't the Way to go. Doomsdays advantage is that you can Play Off Basic lands. Adding red would negate this. Therefore LDV does basically the same for you here and being instant + on-color.

[emidln]

Storm has more trouble with Thalia, lifegain and taxing effects in general than Maniac. Lab Maniac Doomsday has about 5 Basic piles that can Deal with basically any Board state. Storm doomsday pilots have to remember at least 5x more stacks for that. I do not recommend this for any tournament since a mistake somewhere looses the game with Storm builds.

If you are relying on memorizing piles, you are already making a very grave strategic mistake. The power of Doomsday doesn't lie in magic combinations, but as a mass tutor to setup endgames.

The rest of those assertions are false, but have been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere. Feel free to PM me if you want to continue along those lines.

[Lemnear]

If you are relying on memorizing piles, you are already making a very grave strategic mistake. The power of Doomsday doesn't lie in magic combinations, but as a mass tutor to setup endgames.

The rest of those assertions are false, but have been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere. Feel free to PM me if you want to continue along those lines.

Dude, I'm still trying to help the OP and encourage starting to learn the Way doomsday works with Standard-piles is a legit was to do so because I feel (because of the Deck List in OP), he's not an instant-expert with the card (who seriously is?).

I feel that maniac Doomsday is the easiest and most resiliant Version atm and the reason I suggested to Take a Look at it. Discussing here the near limitless numbers of piles we can create (in a Storm Shell or even vintage) doesn't really matter.

It's easier to put a 3cc creature into Play and Stack draw-triggers to Fight removal than taking Storm count, Life count, taxing effects (like spell Pierce), permament based hate or else into account when you learn doomsday.

I have no clue why my assertion, that Thalia or serious Life gain is more backbreaking for Storm than for maniac is wrong in your opinion.

"All you said is wrong, because ... ah ... dunno ... google for counterarguments!"?

[emidln]

Dude, I'm still trying to help the OP and encourage starting to learn the Way doomsday works with Standard-piles is a legit was to do so because I feel (because of the Deck List in OP), he's not an instant-expert with the card (who seriously is?).

The card is a tutor, which necessitates knowing your deck. Failing to recognize that and playing appropriately is one of the worst mistakes you can make. The only skill you need to play Doomsday correctly is to know what is in your deck, regardless of whether you kill with Tendrils of Agony, Laboratory Maniac, or Mountain Goat. If you can't extend some thought into "these are the cards I have and this is what I'm facing on board" you will find yourself constantly losing as one of your memorized combinations comes up short or don't apply. The right way to approach it is, "if I can draw 3-4 cards for no more than a mana or two, what wins me the game?" If you don't know your deck, you can't answer this.

Everything else you mention is trivial compared to knowing your deck. Besides, are you seriously suggesting that you cannot count to between 8 and 15? (Hint: That's what storm count is. Count the number of cards you're going to play, then you get expected storm count. Multiply by 2 to get lifeloss from tendrils or goblins you can make.)

Playing Cantrips Correctly = Know Your Deck
Stacking Draw Triggers To Beat Removal = Know Your Deck
Beating Permanent Hate = Know Your Deck
Counting Mana = Kindergarten + Know Your Deck
Counting Required Storm = elementary school maths + Know Your Deck

The best thing you can do is sit down with a decklist and ask yourself questions like "Why would I want this card?" and "What does it really do for me?" When you work out the general cases, examine cards in the context of a particular matchup. "Why do I want this vs RUG?"

These aren't things that require you to be an instant-expert. It's just critical thinking applied to the game you presumably want to play well. You should be asking these questions for every card in every deck. If you're not asking yourself these things, you're just lazy. Laziness isn't going to get you very far with cards like Brainstorm and Doomsday.


I have no clue why my assertion, that Thalia or serious Life gain is more backbreaking for Storm than for maniac is wrong in your opinion.

Neither Thalia nor Lifegain are backbreaking for the storm deck. In the rare circumstances that doomsday twice, spare mana into SDT, and/or Time Spiral cannot get you a lethal Tendrils, playing ETW typically does win (possibly with a Doomsday to cast to not deck out).

I bounce/kill/play through Thalia at every event I attend. It's a factor like every other an opponent brings, but it doesn't stop me from my gameplan of find cards, play them, and let winning be a side effect of a vastly superior drawing/tutoring package. Thalia effects the storm deck exactly in the same way it affects a lab maniac deck. It makes your setup/win vastly more expensive. Storm solves that by drawing/stacking Karakas/Chain of Vapor. The UB builds attempt to draw/stack Darkblast and by playing Force of Will. Worth noting that in UB, Thalia often must be answered if you hope to play around stp/path due to increased expense of countermagic/cantrips and fewer lands/mana sources.

Also, noticed this gem:


Doomsdays advantage is that you can Play Off Basic lands.

No. Doomsday's advantage is that it lets you stack your deck without getting DQ'd. If you're playing it for some other reason, you're nuts.

[Lemnear]

The latest quote was made because of the premise to play UB maniac instead of a 3-Color-Storm Build only. I See it as an advantage to be able to execute the whole progress of the game and the Combo off an Island and a swamp. It has nothing to do with the Card Doomsday itself which is clear if you pick the whole paragraph the sentence is fitted in.

The rest of your arguments are correct, however it doesn't matter how experienced doomsday players solve tricky puzzles with thalia (bounce) or Life extend (SDT and Double DD pile) because we introduce DD here to a freshman (i guess) and Not to each other. Lab maniac can solve those 2 much easier which is relevant in the context

With Lab maniac being the more streamlined and possibly being cheaper due to the mana-base I think it's the Way to Start in the doomsday archtype as a freshman.

Just to know the cards in your deck rarely is enough to Play it efficently. The Age of Meandeck Gifts in vintage, 4 example, showed that: hilarious amount of threats discussing how to Build Gifts-piles in certain Situation and in the end 2/3 of the players new to combo were so confused that they just kept using the Basic pile of y.will, Lotus, tinker and recoup over and over again with Bad variations in Case One of the 4 is already in the grave. While near Everyone used the basically same Deck performanced varied drastically.

The lesson here: Start with Basic piles and work yourself into the deck instead of overload on decision trees from the start

[emidln]

Completely disagree. Your comment about gifts players is a symptom of lazy gifts players. This is the exact same problem you find with lazy doomsday players. Gifts players knew 1-2 piles and a small number of variations. With these, you can have some small success, but you won't do well at large events and won't enjoy consistency. The players who did well consistently, even at large events, knew their decks.

How do you apply "know your deck"? Excellent question. Let's start with this: every play made has intent. When I play a Ponder, I have an intent (particularly colored by my hand, but also the gamestate at large). When I cast Dark Ritual, I have an intent. When you cast Doomsday, you should also have an intent. If your intent is "see if it resolves and then find 5 cards", without knowing those 5 cards that you need to win the game, you are lazy and are likely about to lose. This is the exact problem Gifts players had (and some still have today).

"I don't know if this is going to resolve, so let's just cast it and see what happens."

If you know your deck well enough, you know that given your situation, there either are or are not 5 cards that win you the game. With Gifts there either are or are not 4 cards that are worth spending 3U on (Gifts can be cast not to win the game, but to get ahead, but in paying 3U, there is significant risk that must be balanced). If you can't pick these things out, stop playing and go back to re-examining your deck. Practicing along the lines of "fuck it, I'll just make something happen" is not productive.

This is actually very closely aligned with a saying you often hear in magic (and poker) circles of "playing to your outs". You cannot maximize your chance of winning in dire situations if you don't know what winning actually looks like. To find out, you need to think about what winning is. From there, you can back track things that need to happen for you to get there.

New players should not learn piles. Learning piles is lazy. Learning piles causes more harm than good. Think about the deck you want to play. Think about how you would work through the pile. Think about what the end game looks like. Think, don't memorize.

[thefreakaccident]

Thank you emidln for being you.

I've seen a lot of talk in this thread about the laboratory kill stack... What does that look like? I am only used to traditional storm versions of this deck.

[SirTylerGalt]

I've seen a lot of talk in this thread about the laboratory kill stack... What does that look like? I am only used to traditional storm versions of this deck.

It's a pile suggested by Stephen Menendian in this (premium) article:

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2787

It's also discussed in this podcast: http://www.mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/so-many-insane-plays/so-many-insane-plays-15-doomsday-scenarios

And on The Source: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23925-Premium-Article-So-Many-Insane-Plays-%96-The-Legacy-Doomsday-Device-Primer


Without going into too much details, and since this pile isn't actually mentioned in the article, here is a pile I often use when I have 3 mana available post doomsday:

Gitaxian Probe
Predict
Laboratory Maniac
Pact Of Negation
Unearth

T1: Sensei's Top
T2: Dark Ritual, Doomsday
T3: Probe, Predict (naming Maniac), bin Maniac, draw Pact and Unearth. Unearth Maniac. Tap top to try to draw a card (and win)

You can replace the Pact with a Probe if you need an additional draw effect.

Stephen's article goes into a lot more details and scenarios, and I thought the 5$ were well spent.

I noticed that DD Maniac made top 4 at a recent Magic League tournament: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9120&iddeck=66639

That said, I want to learn to play DDFT, to see if I prefer it.

[Lemnear]

Awesome post pal, I really Need to add a predict for a better 3-mana-pile (instead of the brainstorm one)

Want to add a few more piles:


2-mana-pile
-------------
Probe
Mental Note
Lab Maniac
- blank -
Unearth

3-mana-pile
--------------
Brainstorm (use to Exchange pact for a blank Card from your Hand)
Mental Note
Lab maniac
Pact of Negation
Unearth

Fetchland in Play
-------------------
Mental Note
Pact of Negation
Lab maniac
Unearth
Underground Sea



Stephen covers a Lot more scenarios with pieces of the Combo in Hand, facing graveyard hate, creature removal or piles with creature removal vs. Grim lavamancer, Thalia etc. I will not discuss here in respect of the afford Stephen puts into his article.

[lavafrogg]

For the combo/control route, have you considered 4 counterbalance in the list? With the doomsday kill so streamlined with the maniac could you lock up the game with top/balance first?

[Lemnear]

For the combo/control route, have you considered 4 counterbalance in the list? With the doomsday kill so streamlined with the maniac could you lock up the game with top/balance first?

Problem here is that you likely spend your early game to search for dark Ritual, doomsday and protection. Assembling counterbalance-Top with only 5 3cc and X 2cc cards (with X=number of counterbalances) in the Deck isn't promissing and far away from locking up. Your Goal is to Win on Turn 3/4 which is counterintuitive with countertop which Profits from Long games.

If your purpose is to protect maniac from removal you should Stack draw trigger instead (passing the Turn to gain an additional draw step + Top + brainstorm 4 example)