Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!) [Archive]

Qweerios

09-28-2012, 04:20 AM

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/kamiofsight/BBE.jpg http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/kamiofsight/Shardless.jpg http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/kamiofsight/AV.jpg

You've guessed it, this thread is for the development of a Legacy cascade deck. The best cascade enablers are Red-Green and Blue-Green creatures, so let's start there.

A little insight on Cascade,

The cascade ability is an intringuing one as it has the ability to create card advantage and board presence. Since cascade triggers on cast, it directly puts two spells on the stack, therefore it is very difficult to fully counter. Furthermore, cascade allows cascaded spells to be cast without paying their mana cost, this is often a great way to cheat creatures or spells into play that you have no business casting with ease such as Suspend cards and Split cards. Suspend cards can be cast immediatly without suspension. Cascading into a Split card offers you the choice to play whichever end of the card you wish to, so long as only one of them has a lower mana cost than the cascader.

Waterfalls is a RUGb midrange Aggro-Control deck that utilizes the cascade mechanic to generate card advantage. It's just like Shardless BUG but with more spice.

Waterfalls
Updated list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Thoughtseize
3 Ancestral Visions

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Forest
//SB
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Meddling Mage
3 Duress
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tundra

Older list (from 2012-2014)

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (22)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Ancestral Vision
1 Toxic Deluge

Lands (23)
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard (15)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Swan Song
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

Sideboard Plans

Storm Combo
In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Cage, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 1 Toxic Deluge, 4 Visions

Reanimator
In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 4 Bolt

Dredge
In: 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay

Sneak Show/OmniShow
In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 4 Bolt

Miracle Control
In: 2 Swan Song, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 3 Wasteland, 1 Toxic Deluge

Burn, UR Delver
In: 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze
Out: 2 Visions, 1 Toxic Deluge

Canadian Threshold, Team America
In: 1 Ooze
Out: 1 FoW

Jund
In: 1 Ooze, 1 Needle
Out: 2 FoW

DnT, Maverick
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Null Rod/Ooze, 1 Engineered Plague
Out: 4 FoW

Patriot, Deathblade
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
Out: 4 FoW

Elves
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Cage
Out: 3 Wasteland

Merfolk
In: 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
Out: 4 FoW

Goblins
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Ooze
Out: 4 FoW

Nic Fit
In: 1 Golgari charm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage, 1 Needle
Out: 3 Decay, 1 Toxic Deluge

-EDIT 16/10/12: Added a white splash for SB options
-EDIT 24/10/12: Changed the white splash for black
-EDIT 14/11/12: Updated SB
-EDIT 11/03/14: Added Nemesis and SB plans
-EDIT 14/03/14: Updated SB and added Wastelands
-EDIT 23/10/14: Updated Mainboard, SB, and added colored text :)
-EDIT 25/10/16: Added a current list to the primer and left the older stuff. Yay for Leovold!

Amon Amarth

09-28-2012, 04:30 AM

Right off the bat, this deck looks really cool. The idea seems awesome. How well has it worked that you only have 8 "real" creatures? Also have you considered running V. Clique? That card is sweet.

catmint

09-28-2012, 04:57 AM

I like the idea as well.

The spells you can cascade into are really sweet and have always some value: Bolt to the face - ice to draw a card. Noble hiearch seems the weakest. But I agree Vendilion Clique looks much stronger than the Angel. It's good against Miracles/Combo and in general my favourite T2 play after a hierarch.

Terminus is still ab problem, but Ancestral Vision is a ton of card advantage and the beaters + reach is very potent.

Sidebaord I would split 2 Submerge, 2 Mind-Harness. you have tons of mana to support the harness. Sulfuric Vortexx also works for RUG - should even be better in this deck.

Qweerios

09-28-2012, 05:04 AM

I have no issues having enough threats. Cascade makes sure I don't run out. The more I play the deck, though, the more I think Ponder would be better than Recall. It would definitely make the deck more consistent. As it is now, it has great explosive potential as well as fizzle potential.

I really like Illusory Angel as a card for this deck. It is definitely better post-board when I side in Crypts or Submerge (T1 Noble, T2 Submerge + Angel). I tried Gitaxian Probe with her but I didn't like it that much, I think Ponder would make her a bit more stable. She is probably sending me in the wrong direction, but it's very hard to resist her. A pair of Cliques and a pair of Oozes is probably better...

I also think a couple of mainboard Jittes couldn't hurt either.

Ahhh, so many good cards, so few deck space...

catmint

09-28-2012, 06:09 AM

1 Jitte MD, 1 SB was also my idea.
if I play cascase I would certainly not cut the recall. :)

I would play 1-2 ponder and cut maybe 1 creature and 1 Fire-Ice
Also 1 Sylvan Library would be very powerful.

My thoughts:

20 land, 4 Wasteland, no basics (to support vendilion clique). Anyway if they waste it hurts us less, because we have hierarch, ancestral ticking down or recover potential with a powerful cascade. I think playing through wasteland and not around it is better. Another option would be to cut the wasteland but it seems very powerful.

creatures:
4 Shardless
3 Bloodbraid (4 mana is expensive so went down to 3)
3 Goyf (do you need 4 with all the other power - i cut 1 for the jitte)
3 Vendilion Clique (angel is nice and stuff, but this improves combo & control so bad)
4 Hierarch

4 Bolt
3 Fire
1 Jitte

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Ancestral Visions

4 Force of Will

Edit:
A question concerning the SB. Against blue non-combo decks you usually you want to bring in the 4 red-blasts? Makes cascade so much worse. How about replacing it with spell pierce for the combo matchup where you surely side out some cascade stuff and the idea to fight blue decks with stuff worth cascading into.

Jenni

09-28-2012, 06:14 AM

Looks interesting.
Have to agree with clique over the angel, it's a flying threat you can cascade into, and a bit of extra disruption, and a good deal of information (or just a free cycle of sorts if you need it to be).

Brainstorm + Cascade seems pretty powerful, too, setting up a cascade or potentially chain of cascades if you have a really good hand, going Bloodbraid into Agent into 'goyf to allow you to just explode onto the battlefield for 5 mana and one card. Or just to make sure when you play your cascade spell, you are more likely to hit the removal spell you need or the ancestral for some extra card advantage.

One problem I've seen with cascade decks that I don't think this has, is cascading into dead cards. It seems like everything you could hit has at least some value, even if it's not the best card to cascade into, you still get a bit of direct damage, a body, a mana dork, or some extra cards. Worst case seems to be hitting a brainstorm, but even then you gain a card and get to fix your hand a bit.

Getting to 3-4 mana quickly so you can start exploiting cascade isn't too bad, I think the format is slow enough, especially with force and a lot of removal to help slow down the faster decks if you need to.

I'm not sure how well the deck mulligans, but it doesn't look like it does particularly well, since cascade is often going to be a bit of a gamble.

Ancestral has an odd problem here, too. If you cascade into it, it's great, three extra cards at no cost to you, but if you have to suspend it, then you probably won't really be rewarded by it, since this isn't looking like a "late game" type of deck.

Wraths seem problematical, cascading into a bunch of nice threats is great, but it's hard to hold back or keep from overextending with cascade, since you won't always know how many creatures you're about to put into play when you cast bloodbraid elf.

It's also a bit vulnerable to stifle, since both the fetches, and cascade itself, can be stifled.

Qweerios

09-28-2012, 06:34 AM

Ancestral has an odd problem here, too. If you cascade into it, it's great, three extra cards at no cost to you, but if you have to suspend it, then you probably won't really be rewarded by it, since this isn't looking like a "late game" type of deck.

Turn 1 Suspend has its merits against a lot of decks. Any control deck as well as any dork deck like DnT or Maverick will be kept at bay by the Bolts and Fires long enough for the Recalls to kick in full gear. At least, this is what the testing has proved.

Wraths seem problematical, cascading into a bunch of nice threats is great, but it's hard to hold back or keep from overextending with cascade, since you won't always know how many creatures you're about to put into play when you cast bloodbraid elf.

The beauty of cascade is that it might look like you're overextending, but you're not. Whatever hits the board after a Shardless or a BBE is still extra.

It's also a bit vulnerable to stifle, since both the fetches, and cascade itself, can be stifled.

They can Stifle my trigger all they want, I will still be left with something and they won't.

@Catmint,

-Sylvan Library is an interesting card. I agree with you that Library and Jitte deserve MD space as 1-ofs, they have inherent synergy with cascade creatures and definitely don't want multiples.

-I don't know about losing the basics. The deck is very midgame oriented if you don't land a T1 Noble. I haven't been crippled by my manabase so far. I usualy fetch all basics against RUG and I wouldn't do without. Also, I originaly played the deck without Wasteland, and with 2 basics. Adding the Wastes was a massive boon. As far as going all duals goes, I really wouldn't want to be cut from my red source.

-Goyf is too important to cut down. He is the best blocker post-cascade and the biggest creature in the deck. A prime cascade target and T2 play.

-A 3/3 split of Clique and BBE is reasonable. I am just a bit wary of the Legend rule.

-Fire // Ice is the strongest cascade after Recall. Taping a permanent + a cantrip off of a 3/2 haste creature is incredible value and aggressivity. I don't think I would need Ponder anymore without Illusory Angel.

EDIT: I tried 3 Spell Pierce in the SB and they weren't so handy. FoW is the only counterspell I can count on. I chose REBs over pierce because they are counterspells when drawn, and potential removal when cascaded into (worst case scenario). I have 4 in the board so far but I haven't tried them out yet to be honest. Perhaps Izzet Charm?

catmint

09-28-2012, 09:12 AM

True... the lengend rule sucks when cascading into, but it is a very strong "normal" play. I guess it is worth the risk since if you have a clique in play there are only 2 left in the deck and it only cascades from BBE. Multiple cliques if not cascading into is not a problem: if your clique survives it can kill (no 2nd clique needed) or trade. Clique is just the best card against combo & it puts miracles & batterskulls/Jittes on the bottom.

Duals vs. Basics: No idea - maybe you are right. Cliques are the only UU and I guess the rest of the deck plays out without needing a lot of "same color" spells in the same turn.

Red blast as removal vs RUG is ok. altough still narrow and against UW(x) variants cascading into redblast is very bad whereas cascading into creatures/draw is nuts. Feel like you are giving away cascade advantage vs. UWx if you board red-blasts. My thought was the combo matchup: -4 Shardless +4 Spell pierce. You then have 8 counterspells, 3 Vendilion Clique and a fast clock. Bloodbraid and Visions are still kind of bad - but T1 Visions can be relevant and you only tap out for BBE if you win that turn or they can't win next turn I guess. However if you have neither Red-blast or Spell Pierce versus Counter-top Miracles I would sideboard 2 Krosan Grip and not 2 Ancient Grudge.

Concerning T2 play: I used to looooove NO Rug with T1 7 acceleration slots & 3-4 Clique for Turn 2. Unfortunately GSZ or more manadorks cannot be supported.
Now in this deck there are 8 T1 plays: Suspend Visions or Manadork and for Turn 2 (if only 2 mana available) 3 Goyf, 1 Jitte or 1 Sylvan Library. Question is if you have enough Turn 2 Power with 2 mana" if you run 3 Goyfs. The thing is that if you have 3 mana Turn 2 I guess you prefer to shardless or Vendilion Clique and Goyf would be stuck in your hand. Also for 50% of my turn 1 plays I am not in a "super hurry" to play out my threats because there is a vision to come so I can bolt/fire something or ice-cantrip down their land which has a lot of value with a vision in play. It still might be right to run 3 Goyfs but not for the worry of not having enough big creatures. The deck has a lot of firepower. :smile: Maverick has bigger creatures anyway, but Mind Harness/ Submerge + overwhelming have to beat Ooze & Night.

Zirath

09-28-2012, 10:11 AM

I feel as though this deck requires Jace to set up some of the more powerful Cascades.

Previously this deck also had Ponder to set up Cascade.

Darkenslight

09-28-2012, 10:26 AM

If you're struggling with REB, why not try Active Volcano as a potential alternative againt RUG decks? Most RUG lists use only Islands as mana sources, and it kills Delvers dead.

gesucca

09-28-2012, 10:57 AM

Hi guys,

I toyed with this kind of deck time ago, I'm happy that someone else is interested in this archetype.

I ran a list fith* Punishing Fires, have you considered it? It is in-color and it can contribute to the insane card advantage the deck provide.

Also, are you sure that you can cast a Fire//Ice off from a cascade of three/four? Isn't the converted mana cost of the card 4? If, for example, you reveal it with Dark Confidant you lose four life.

EDIT: * f...ing typing error, I meant "with". I hate this keyboard!

Esper3k

09-28-2012, 11:18 AM

Also, are you sure that you can cast a Fire//Ice off from a cascade of three/four? Isn't the converted mana cost of the card 4? If, for example, you reveal it with Dark Confidant you lose four life.

The converted mana cost of a split card on the stack is the CMC of whichever half is being cast.

However, in other zones the CMC of it is both the sides, not the sum. So for example, when Dark Confidant reveals one and asks what's the CMC of Fire // Ice, it returns an answer of 2 and 2, so you lose 4 life.

gesucca

09-28-2012, 11:25 AM

The converted mana cost of a split card on the stack is the CMC of whichever half is being cast.

However, in other zones the CMC of it is both the sides, not the sum. So for example, when Dark Confidant reveals one and asks what's the CMC of Fire // Ice, it returns an answer of 2 and 2, so you lose 4 life.

Ah, ok, understood. Thanks and my apologize for the OT.

ceustice

09-28-2012, 01:10 PM

There was a version of this deck that ran Guided Passage that did fairly well at open and I didn't see anyone talking about it, thought I would share.

Koby

09-28-2012, 01:34 PM

Here's the latest Guided Passage deck:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8591&iddeck=62695

//NAME: Giavellotto ft. Paxxu
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Guided Passage
4 Force of Will
4 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

It seems very close to Next Level Thresh with an increased game against Tribal. Seems like it might be good against all the Miracle/Tribal decks right now, but loses a punch against unfair strategies that require heavier countermagic.

EDIT: Holy crap, just now noticed Counterbalance in the Sideboard. I'm sold!

Ozymandias

09-28-2012, 01:38 PM

Izzet Charm is countermagic that it doesn't blow to cascade into.

Qweerios

09-28-2012, 04:52 PM

Just to clarify a bit on split cards:

Split cards converted mana cost is the sum of both ends;

Split cards mana cost is the chosen end's CMC;

Cascading into a split card allows you to cast any end as long as one of them has a lower CMC than the cascader.

Woah, I did not know of guided passage. It looks more stable than AV but it won't cascade off a shardless.

As for pfire, I did play against that deck, and I stomped it... I didn't like how it durdled around and didn't do much.

Jace is definitely an interesting addition. Brainstorm effects are insane with cascade.

Mirrislegend

09-28-2012, 05:11 PM

Guided Passage really needs Brainstorm AND Jace to be good. Sometimes, you cast Passage and they give you 3 shit cards (yes, I understand the concept that every card in the deck is great to receive off of Passage, but between realism and having spoken to an excellent player who ran this deck, I think we can all agree that this concept is not accurate). You need to be able to Brainstorm those cards away for profit (think Standard Ancestral Recall of JtMS+Squadron Hawks)

catmint

09-28-2012, 05:14 PM

The guided passage control deck has a different approach without visions but a more non-linear aggro-control appraoch. LIke NO-RUG but with good lategame cards like bloodbraid, Jace, Punishing Fire & EE instead of Natural Order.

THe list from this thread has a more linear gamplan which tries to utilize the cascade mechanic as much as possible and to hit face. The gameplan does not require a lot of setup to cascade because you trust in randomness and sometimes settle for damage to the face instead of 3 extra cards. I like it more because I feel visions is very strong against the other blue decks.

So for this list:

First thing i thought about when i saw it: "how about punishing fire" - however Fire ice is so much better cascading into and bolt is a very important 1 mana removal I think. Also more grindy stuff does not feel necessary.

Bloodbraid takes the 3 4cmc slots instead of Jace and is more powerful in this deck I feel because the 3 haste damage fit the gameplan very well. Jace to setup better cascades sounds really like winmore. :) Visions, Sylvan, Jitte & Cascading is a lot of lategame stuff. Maybe Jace in the sideboard... It is just important to handle other lategame stuff that just trumps all our creatures. Batterskull comes to mind but with 8 burn spells and 2 Krosan Grips I feel ok.

What is however awkard if you have Noble Hierarch & Visions in the opener or if you cascade into hierarch. Question is if rejecting Hierarch is an option. Would need to play more lands, lower the curve and put some ponders in. Ponder is a good card in the early game & to setup cascade. You also don't feel embarrassed cascading into it, but it feels hiearch is powerful enough to take the risk of awkwardness.

Esper3k

09-28-2012, 05:28 PM

Split cards converted mana cost is the sum of both ends;

This is not true. For example, if you reveal Assault / Battery (costs 1 and 4) for a Counterbalance trigger, you don't get to counter a CMC 5 spell - you counter one that's CMC 1 or CMC 4.

The reason you take the sum in life loss from Dark Confidant is because when the trigger asks what is the CMC of the card revealed, it gets both sides as answers.

708.2. In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. As long as a split card is a spell on the stack, only the characteristics of the half being cast exist. The other half’s characteristics are treated as though they didn’t exist.

Qweerios

09-29-2012, 01:50 AM

Thanks for that insight Esp3k, I didn't grasp that notion fully because I was still wondering how come you could cast Bust by cascading into it with a cascader with a CMC of at least 3.

Speaking of Assault // Battery, isn't it just better than Lightning Bolt? You take away the instant speed and make it 2 instead of 3 damage but give it the potential to be a 3/3 creature and an overall better cascade spell.

Looking at that Guided Passage list, it appears to be a control deck more than anything else. It seems like that deck revolves more around silver bullets rather than relentless aggression. What I like about Waterfalls is the fact that it is constantly in your face. It is akin to a RUG Delver deck but it swaps out the aggressive Delver openings in favor of additional fuel.

Hanni

09-29-2012, 02:43 AM

I'm really diggin this deck idea. I just have 1 question... where are the Grim Lavamancers?

kwis

09-29-2012, 02:46 AM

Looks pretty cool

T1 - Mana Dude
T2 - 2cc dude, Brainstorm opponent EOT
T3 - Cascade into Visions

Koby

09-30-2012, 02:25 AM

Here's a more aggro version that placed well back in July.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8735&iddeck=63755

//NAME: More Cascade Robin
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Shardless Agent
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

3 Ancestral Vision
3 Ponder

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique

miko

09-30-2012, 05:05 AM

I think it is too much to have both Bloodbraid as well as Shardless in one deck. You want to use the curve.

This is what I've recently tried:

3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Island

4 Shardless Agend
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Force of Will

= 60

SB:
1 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Submerge
2 Mind Harness

It is not easy to beat Delver (RUG or Tempo-Team America) but since you can create so much card advantage you should win against control. Against aggro you have to rely on Punishing Fire. Which you draw from time to time.

I took it to a tourney two weeks ago.

My wins were against Maverick, Omnitell

Lost against Elves, Merfolks (both good match ups but due to not finding my removal suite...).

The deck plays pretty well. I used to play this very deck before Shardless Agent and I was always very confident about it.
Now it needs more testing. I'm for example not sure if I want to have Bloodbraid in there again. Do I want to cut a Jace TMS and have a second Ponder instead?
What about having a fourth Punishing Fire? Do I really need 4 Ancestral Visions?
Do we want to have Jitte in our sideboard, too?

Historically spoken, I think this deck developed like this:
Roberto Sartini played UGR

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5515&iddeck=39937

Switched to something like this - called it "Robin":

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6469&iddeck=46870

Had a lot of success:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6935&iddeck=50310

And other players tried it as well (especially in Germany and Italy, I think - Spain as well):
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7754&iddeck=56424 - Classical list
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7875&iddeck=57358 - no cascade in here
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8049&iddeck=58676 - no Visions - Guided Passage instead
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7523&iddeck=54634 - Classical list
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8235&iddeck=60053 - Sartini again
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8330&iddeck=60700 - Sartini moving back to Next Level Threshold again - almost cut the cascade mechanism completely

So do we have a development towards cascade again? Does it make sense to give Shardless a try?

I think the deck is well positioned because it can win against almost every possible deck. What we have to do right now, is to find a strong list that is well positioned in the current meta.

Btw.: I would not play Tormod's Crypt in this deck's sideboard. There are a lot of better options. Relic allows you to draw a card, Grafdiggers Cage is good against a lot of different decks and stays on the battlefield, Extractions is not as narrow as Tormod's Crypt.

catmint

09-30-2012, 05:20 AM

So from my testing with this list I think 3 Tarmogoyf is enough. It is just too often dead in hand, because whenever you can play a more expensive spell you want to do so. And there are 10 more expenseive creatures

Also cascading into Fire/Ice proofed to be very good, so I wont try out punishing fire. Also feels like there is no need with so much burn and card advantage.

Currently thinking about the flex spot in this list

20 land, 3 Basics, 4 Wasteland

4 Shardless
3 Bloodbraid
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendilion Clique

1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Visions
1 ???

SB
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
4 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip (can't shardless into and better against CB & Batterskull)
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction

So 1 Option would be to just run a Ponder, but with all the early plays and the relatively stable manabase I don't see it as a must. Another option would be to just cut the Jitte and run 2 Jace.

Not sure about the sideboard yet. Don't know how much support the deck needs against maverick, but I am afraid the combo matchup will be pretty bad.

miko

09-30-2012, 06:22 AM

Three Tarmogoyf are enough.
But 4 Wastelands and only 20 lands? Does that work?
I mean I think your approach is pretty neat and looks pretty clever if you do not want to run Punishing Fire.
I guess your sideboard is OK for the Maverick match up. And against combo you have Wastelands, too. So it might be OK.

catmint

09-30-2012, 08:39 AM

Well, the way to loose to Candian is if you get screwed and die before you get anything going. Not sure how many more [colored] [basic] lands you need to make sure that does not happen too often. Against all other decks or RUG without Stifle I feel the manabase is ok.

Maybe going up to 21 lands with 3 wastelands and playing 1 Ponder would make a difference. Btw.: Jace has been fantastic in my last couple of games, so won't cut him. :)

Optimized list + manbase has to be figured out & adapted to the meta with intensive tests agains the tiers, but I feel the shell with Shardless + some number of bloodbraid/Jace with Visions rejecting Punishing Fire and Guided Passage is the way to go.

Kyle

09-30-2012, 02:35 PM

I'm loving the RUG version of this. Reach is awesome and Bloodbraid Elf rocks. And the addition of Noble Hierarch is nifty for exalted.

T1 Hierarch
T2 Agent
T3 Elf

Neat.

Mastikor

09-30-2012, 03:31 PM

This deck looks sweeeet! I really like "big" versions of RUG over Canadian. This looks so fun to play! I like the deck name to.

I think we need to discuss the best cascade targets. Visions is obviously in, but other things need to be tested. Fire/Ice is definetly nice, but other split cards have potential too. Here's the list of all split cards: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?output=spoiler&method=visual&name=+[%2f]

Cards that caught my eye: Assault/Battery, Boom/Bust (free armageddon!!) and Research/Development. All are also in deck colors so can be hardcast if necessary.

Concerning Guided Passage: as much as i love this card, I just don't think it's good enough. The ussual pile is gonna be: random land, Hierarch and Visions or some split card. It's OK but not worth the slot imo.

Concerning Izzet Charm: I love this card and currently testing it in my NLT, but it doesn't seem too good in this deck. Cascading into it is probably just worse then Fire/Ice.

Here's my take on the list (nothing unusual really):

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraind Elf
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace TMS
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
3-4 open slots for cascade targets

20-21 lands, including all 3 basics and 3-4 Wastelands.

regards

catmint

09-30-2012, 03:46 PM

Kich867

09-30-2012, 03:49 PM

I don't think it works to cascade into the more expensive spells on split cards. Anyway I think it is very important to make the spells you want to cascade into also decent if drawn normally. A turn 1 visions is certainly ok and Fire Ice is a good removal spell. Also the ice part should be used aggressively as a Rishadan Port in the upkeep if Ancestral Visions is ticking down.

It very much does: per Bloodbraid Elf's oracle rulings: "If you exile a split card with Cascade, check if at least one half of that split card has a converted mana cost that's less than the converted mana cost of the spell with cascade. If so, you can cast either half of that split card."

But you're correct; you should be running spells that are inherently good on their own, not only when freecast with cascade effects.

Richard Cheese

09-30-2012, 04:27 PM

This is actually a really cool list, lots of interesting possibilities for abusing cascade.

Would it be crazy to try some number of Esperzoa in the list? The problem with Shardless and BBE is that they are both pretty underwhelming once they hit play, but having a big flying beater that can bounce an Agent every turn seems worth exploring.

catmint

09-30-2012, 04:50 PM

I think Esperzoa could fall into the "fancy" sondrome. Vendilion Clique is just a straight up powerful play. As for 2/2 vanillas and 3/2 haste ground creatures.
My esperiences is that:
- I know exactly why hierarch deserves the spot altough she is not producing red
- the ice/burn or "build up board position and overwhelm" tactic is what helps against opposing large roadblocks.
- life total advantage helps to hold opposing beasts back.
- If the board is stalled Visions can be cast and/or Jace can safe the day

Qweerios

10-01-2012, 05:48 AM

Here is a quick update on what I have tried/tested lately:

-Assault // Battery is good, but not better than Bolt. It is a stronger cascade but a weaker card to hold as you will never cast the token part of it.

-Punishing Fire is win-more. It is nowhere near Fire // Ice's power level. Most of the time, games don't even last long enough for both parts to be active, or the combo is simply easely disrupted. Grove is also a terrible land to draw.

-Esperzoa and Aether Adept. Yes, I tested Aether Adept... Just like Illusory Angel, they are great when they work, but they don't always work, so that's a no-go.

-Boom // Bust and Reasearch // Development are both terrible cards to hold in your hand. Cascading into them may be nice, but the odds of having to cast your spells are much higher than the odds of cascading into them. It's not because you can do something broken that it is good.

The flex slots for this deck IMO are the # of Cliques and BBE. I like Jace in this deck but I am not entirely sold on him being better than BBE yet. In order to maximize/justify a playset of AVs, I don't think 7-8 cascaders is too many. I know how great brainstorm effects are for this deck, but how much slots can I dedicate to mid-late game card advantage?

As a sidenote, I have thought of making the list more agressive with a lot of quick and effective cascade spells, Ponders, and Delvers but I opted against because it is diametricaly opposed to the deck's strategy. A 4CMC "core" card will not function in a Delver deck.

Mackan

10-01-2012, 06:25 AM

I don't think red for BBE and bad removal outweights the need for swords to plowshares. I also don't want to ruin my cascades with manadorks. It's really about drawing 3 cards.
The problem with cascade is the limits in the deckbuilding process (playing non-fow counters is PLAIN WRONG). Without discard (and i don't like it) we need something else... and instead of having sideboarded Counterbalances we will be better of with them main. And then we get to play the best support card for ancestral vision too (sensei's divining top).

3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strand
6 island
1 forest
1 plains
4 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 ancestral vision
4 counterbalance
4 tarmogoyf
2 vedalken shackles
4 shardless agent
4 jace, the mind sculptor
4 force of will
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strand
6 island
1 forest
1 plains

sideboard
2 krosan grip
4 path to exile
2 elspeth, knight-errant
2 tormod's crypt
1 grafdigger's cage
2 vendillion clique
2 meddling mage

There could be some number of divine verdicts/terminus in the side, but I really like the approach of 1 mana-removal and planeswalkers/vedalken shackles for crowdcontrol. It's really only Nimble mongoose that could be a real problem, MOR and etched champion can both be vedalken shackled. Submerge is nice and all but doesn't solve the classic merfolkproblem.

stoneforge mystic is a card. I think goyf blocks better though, and that's what why want our 2manadork.

snapcaster is sad of a cascade, but might be ok somewhere in the 75.

I don't want to cascade into my situational cards so Krosan grip is the perfect anti-CB card.

The manabas is really good and I rather not spice it up with non-basics (karakas, for example).

Sadly Engineered explosives can't be played in a cascade list.

Please let me know what you think or if the post should be moved somewhere else.

catmint

10-01-2012, 07:39 AM

Concerning the RUG version I came to the same conclusions as Qweerios. On Jace: It is just a very different & powerful angle of attack that I like over the full playset of bloodbraid elves.

Cascading in a UW counterbalance shell is a different approach:
Yes you get to play SD.top and reduce randomness in your cascades, but by playing a lot of "bad" (in the sense of relatively bad in multiples or situational) cascade targets like SD.top, swords & counterbalance you need to do that. With RUG you take a shot at random and you don't mind if it is sometimes only 3 to the face or a hierarch, since you have more cascade spells and your gameplan supports reducing the opponents life. :wink:

With your list I see the issue that you still need to get control somehow and you can use shardless only to draw some extra cards. You still play only 4 swords, 2 Shackles to control the board. You will very often "durdle" around with clunky hands (SD.top/counterbalance/shardless,Shackles, Jace) loosing a lot of tempo while Canadian & Maverick will kill you, because you do not have Terminus to get you back to the game. The reason Miracles can support clunky SD.top & Counterbalance is because they make up for their tempo by loss by having Terminus & Entreat the Angels.

The Waterfall approach is more proactive and the opponent needs to stop you from killing them. You do not really need to get "full control"; you just need to overwhelm the opponent on the board & with life/card advantage. Therefore the 2/2 exhalted body has a much higher impact on the game. Also with 8 burn spells it is much easier to control the board. 4 of this spells (fire/ice) are very strong in this deck functioning as a rishadan port or creature tap & while beeing a very good random cascade target.

Mackan

10-01-2012, 08:00 AM

Yes, it is a different approach.

I don't really agree about cascading bad cards... quite the opposite actually. I.E Sensei's Divining Top is not really bad in multiples, but if they were, you would never cascade into them (since having one will let you arrange the top cards anyway). There's also the neat synergy where you stack 2 dead draws (mostly lands) on top of a good card. Not only will you get a nice, consistent, present on your cascades but also get rid of 2 bad cards and a fresh new top3.

I don't think the cascade/visions should be built as an aggrodeck, Canadian Threshhold is better at that.
BBE and bolts sure adds up in damage when you goldfish but red/green/blue have problems dealing with big creatures. Playing for the mid-game means your opponent will be doing the same. Knight of the reliquary is game over far to often :(

I understand the concern of my durdlyness and I like drawing cards a bit to much. However, those extra cards compensates for not running more anti-cards. 20 of my cards helps me find or play a plow (jace, bs, top, agent, visions). The other half of the deck makes sure it resolve:)

I guess it's just personal preference as BBE is a very powerful card and im not into the whole "attacking with creatures".

I agree that Terminus should be in the side over path. I re-read my post and I clearly stated that "I need removal for 1 mana" and terminus does that pretty much allways.

catmint

10-01-2012, 08:20 AM

Good argument on the "multiple top" non-issue and the general top & Shardless synergy. Still think the deck "doesnt do" enough, but you can surely try to tune it in a way that you have a decent "UW Miracle-control with Shardless in it deck". I suggest to post that in the Miracles thread or open a new one, since it has some fundamental differences with this approach.

As for canadian beeing the better aggro deck. I see it different: Canadian is actually a pretty bad aggro deck in the sense of being threat light, but it has a lot of good filtering & disruption riding the super-effecient threats to victory. Problem is if a deck like Nic Fit, Pox, BUG control, Miracles is out to get you, you have a hard time in the long game whereas Waterfalls likes to go long with a higher curve and more card-advantage than all of those decks. Compared to RUG you basically sacrifice a good combomatchup to make all the fair matchups more favourable.

Also Maverick is very tough to beat with Canadian, whereas I feel it is much easier with Waterfalls. Knight is a problem, but he can be overwhelmed (you might have to 2 for 1 yourself which is often not a big deal) and he can't come down early as a huge anmial. Also don't forget the 4 Ice + 2 Jace to temporarily deal with big creatures, which can be enough for the deadly swings. With Hierarch + more creatures Thalia hurts a lot less and 8 burn spells fight mother more consistantly. Naturally games go long so some numbers of visions will resolve... Postboard you have Mind Harness & Submerge which are even stronger in waterfalls than in canadian because you swing for more. Also the 2 Sulfur Elemental can be played a lot better with Hierarch and more mana and you can run Jitte.

I still have to test against my friend who is a good Maverick player, but I think the matchup will be much better than with Canadian.

silvanel

10-01-2012, 02:20 PM

How about Phantasmal Image in there? pretty good against a lot of deck but can also copy your own agent or bloodbraid to keep on cascading?

Koby

10-01-2012, 02:25 PM

How about Phantasmal Image in there? pretty good against a lot of deck but can also copy your own agent or bloodbraid to keep on cascading?

Cascade is a cast trigger. It has no effect when Clone'd.

Qweerios

10-01-2012, 08:02 PM

gesucca

10-02-2012, 03:06 AM

I really can't stand cascadeing into a f***ing manadork.

I don't care about the miserable conditional +1/+1 given by exalted, when I cascade, I want it to be as devasting as possible, considering Brainstorm the worst possible target.

But the deck really need to play mana acceleration. I can figure only one awful method to di it, Sol Lands. I mean, they are orrible in a three colored deck, they accelerate only BBE and Jace, but I cannot waste a cascade into them.

Thoughts?

catmint

10-02-2012, 03:17 AM

@Catmint,

Glad to see we're on the same page as far as to how the deck functions and what direction it should take. Though, there are still a few things I don't understand.

How is 3 Goyfs enough? I want more than one in play, he is our biggest creature, he is on-curve, and he's our quickest path to victory.

Well he is not always on-curve. Whenever I have hierarch T1 I would like to follow-up with Clique or Shardless. Sure I want to sometimes burn + Goyf T2 with 3 mana, but on the other hand if I don't have Hierarch and I need to burn T2, I again want to Clique or Sharldess T3. Therefor I found it to be often stuck in the hand. That's not too bad since I can sandbag it for bad times, but I would rather have a BBE or a Jace for said bad times. Sure I want more in play and that is easily possible running 3. Also since we do not run any sorcerier excpet for visions he is not the strongest in this deck.

Isn't 3 Cliques too many at times? Is she that important to our success that the third one is pulling its weight?

I am convinced she is the best card against combo, very good against control and good against the rest of the field. Can't think of any matchup right now where I would like to side her out. Besides her we can only interact with our opponent with 4 FoW, our 8 removal(4ice), wasteland & Jace. Since she is the only form of "hand-control" + the best offensive beater in the deck (we can make goyf only a 3/4 ourselves and she has flying) I would never cut her. Multiples are not a problem. If one in play is surviving and we are ahead we are winning. If we are behind she can trade/chump.. + she is blue. ;)

Why reject Ooze?

Ooze is a powerful card. Just a bit random without Green suns zenith, but could defenitely run him.

Why Surgical > Crypts in the SB?

I am just at a point where I don't want to devote special slots to dredge. I accept to loose most of the time and only win with the pierce/foW + Wasteland hand if he gets stuck or with the occassional surgical. With this deck I can at least fire a hierarch and keep games a bit more fair. Surgicals can also come in against combo, Nic Fit, Loam, Punishing Fire,...

Why Mind Harness > Submerge? It seems to me like Harness is a potential dead cascade at times when there is nothing to enchant or that you cannot afford to start taxing your mana. It is also card disadvantage if the upkeep cost becomes too prohibitive. I don't like Harness for the same reason I didn't like cascading into StP when I played Bant. Most often than not, there is nothing worth removing on the board when StP randomly shows up. Removal cards are good when they are left in your hand, waiting for the right moment to be used.

Cascading is a good argument, but if there is nothing worth harnessing and I am cascading I am probably ahead and can afford to whiff at times. On the other hand if the opponent has a goyf/Knight/ozze you would not like to see the submerges at the bottom while you cascade into something else. I just fell in love with mind harness playing Canadian. It is the more powerful card (also good against goblins which are popular right now) and with waterfalls you even have the mana to support it properly.

I think Cascade brings a new "random dynamic" to deck building. I believe cascade validates the use of singletons as long as they meet certain requirements such as:

-High impact
-High versatility
-High synergy
-Worthless in multiples

If these shares are equal in distribution, you have a great singleton for a cascade deck.
Sylvan library is a perfect example of a synergistic singleton that is equaly as impactful and versatile as it is useless in multiples. However, there are some cards that have such high impact and/or versatility that they outweigh the fact that they are dead multiples, therefore validating additional copies. Examples of such cards include:

-Vendilion Clique
-Scavenging Ooze
-Umezawa's Jitte
-Jace, the Mind Sculptor

With this being said, I see no reasons not to include all of these cards, without exception, as singletons.

Agree on random and powerful 1offs like sylvan or jitte.
Vendilion Clique is good in multiples though. They usually remove her -> play another one. If not you likely win.
Multiple Jace is not relevant at all. If they handle it you have a nother one, if not you are winning and brainstorming your jace away.

Qweerios

10-02-2012, 05:25 AM

Here is my issue with Goyf. He is either a 0 or 4-of in my book. He is strictly vanilla, there is nothing a Goyf brings to the table besides size. He isn't a silver bullet and his sole purpose is to exist on the field. Playing 3 feels like strategic hesitation. You go all out or you don't, there is no inbetween when goyf is concerned. In the advent that we choose not to play Goyf, I think it frees up a lot of deck space for additional Oozes and Jaces. Ooze is definitely a powerhouse in this deck. Between a Goyf and an Ooze, I choose the Ooze a million times over, I just don't want two of them...

As for Clique, I can definitely get behind using 3. It does do a lot for the deck, I wouldn't play 4 though. 2-3 is ideal.

Also, with a couple of Jaces in the deck, is Sylvan Library obsolete? I think it overlaps in purpose and we lose value.

catmint

10-02-2012, 05:40 AM

True Sylvan & Jace is a funny overkill.... I suppose it is a flex slot, however I always loved casting it turn 2/3.

I have a differnent point of view concerning the number of cards in a deck and would in general not go for "religious" all or nothing view. Some cards like daze and stifle do have this characteristic more, but even those numbers can be flexible in certain decks.

The approach I often like to use is:
4of: Always want it in my starting hand - i don't mind multiples
3of: Want it in my starting hand - not necessarily mutiples
2of: want to draw it at some point during the game
1of: Tutor target, random flex slot

this covers of course not all aspects of slection but for this deck it applies. 3 goyfs because I do like to cast one altough I do not want multiples, since I have more powerful spells if i have 3 or 4 mana available. That is a concious decision and not not a strategic hesitation.

As for cutting Goyf and playing ooze. Thought about it as well, but as you say: multiples are not that nice whereas multiple Goyfs are usually good. Goyf can also start beating and does not die to red removal wihout us spending mana (and having creatures to exile), so an argument against ooze is that you need to spend more resources on it to be good whereas with goyf you can just tap out for BBE. Still, could get behind testing without goyfs and oozes or other stuff instead because ooze hoses some strategies/cards.

Qweerios

10-02-2012, 06:47 AM

I played against Goblins, Pox, and GB Natural Order.dec with Lotleth Troll using a no-Goyf/3 Ooze configuration. I don't think I will be looking back at Goyf now. I mounted a couple of comebacks from impossible situations using only Jace and Ooze.

I think that the fact that Ooze is weak to red removal when dropped early is irrelevant because decks using bolt-like removal tend to focus on tempo and direct damage. Ooze hoses those matchups much more than a Goyf ever would. Just like Clique, Ooze gives us positive odds against so many matchups that we otherwise don't. With Ooze, we now have something really solid to lean on when we're up against Reanimator, Dredge, KotR, Goyf, Snapcaster... The list goes on and on.

Kyle

10-02-2012, 03:09 PM

So from my testing with this list I think 3 Tarmogoyf is enough...

Holy shit your list is fun @catmint. I feel like a weathervane (since I love the BUG Cascade version), but wow the RUG version is sweet.

I made a few small modifications and it runs quite smoothly.

MD:

-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Sylvan Library
+3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB:

-2 Mind Harness
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
-4 Spell Pierce (I never want to Cascade into this, though an argument could be made that postboard against Storm or SnT.dec you want more reliable countermagic and you abandon the heavy-Cascade strategy)
+3 Counterbalance

I'm totally married to Shardless Agent and Ancestral Visions, but Bloodbraid Elf has definitely become my sultry mistress. Accelerated T3 3/2 with Haste on a board you can control? Yes please.

catmint

10-02-2012, 04:32 PM

Interesting.. I'll test with Ooze as well.

Curious to hear how the SD.tops work out. Feel it is too mana intensive when i just want to "drop my stuff". Also the 3 SD.top & 3 Counterbalance wont do the cut against combo i fear. Mrracles has this + the spell pierces + counterspells main. I am not worried about cascading into spell pierce, beacuse the cascade stuff is the first to cut against combo.
..but let's see how you do with it.

Mastikor

10-03-2012, 11:08 AM

Just got an idea. How does cascade works with overload mechanic? It would be so awesome cascading into overloaded Cyclonic Rift :tongue:

Richard Cheese

10-03-2012, 11:46 AM

Just got an idea. How does cascade works with overload mechanic? It would be so awesome cascading into overloaded Cyclonic Rift :tongue:

I don't think this works. I'm pretty sure cascade only lets you ignore the casting cost, but any alternative costs have to be paid as normal. Otherwise you'd have shenanigans like infinite multikicker.

.dk

10-03-2012, 11:50 AM

deleted because I can't read the rules. :)

Koby

10-03-2012, 01:15 PM

When casting spells spells with Alternative CC, you can only select one method to pay for it. Cascade is an Alt-CC, paying for only the printed mana cost. Overload is another Alt-CC. You cannot play a spell's Overload off a Cascade.

From RTR FAQ:
"If you are instructed to cast a spell with overload “without paying its mana cost,” you can’t choose to pay its overload cost instead."

.dk

10-03-2012, 01:33 PM

Koby

10-03-2012, 01:41 PM

I made the same mistake thinking the same way before the FAQ was released. Not that there any good Overload spells for this deck anyway.

Back on track -
@Kyle, you mentioned some changes from catmint's deck. Have you tested dropping some SDT and supplementing them with Trinket Mage?

The list I posted that ran Punishing Fire also ran EE which seems to handle a lot of problematic permanents that RUG has trouble dealing with (KotR). While it sucks to Cascade into them, the extra removal seems better against a wide-field nonetheless. Especially since this deck only runs Force of Will as a panic button.

Kyle

10-03-2012, 07:34 PM

Richard Cheese

10-03-2012, 07:43 PM

catmint

10-04-2012, 08:31 AM

Buddy of mine made a good point. Since I bring in 4 Spell Pierce ONLY against combo and not against control I should run 4 Flusterstorm instead.

Koby

10-04-2012, 11:48 AM

@Koby: not much experience using Trinket Mage - is the only reason to get a 2/2 and a SD.top in your hand? It seems a little clunky... what am I missing? Deck thinning? I'm not being facetious, I'm just wondering what benefit there is.

I'm trying out 1 EE 1 Top 1 Trinket Mage MD, with more G/Y hate SB to utilize with it (2 Relics 1 Cage 1 extra Top). It's admittedly rather weak, but I'll see how it performs at some local events.

Kyle

10-04-2012, 01:14 PM

Buddy of mine made a good point. Since I bring in 4 Spell Pierce ONLY against combo and not against control I should run 4 Flusterstorm instead.

Flusterstorm makes my head spin.

@Koby: I see - there's a lot of good potential tutoring then - cool.

Qweerios

10-05-2012, 04:23 AM

Has anybody tested Izzet Charm out of the SB against various matchups? It's "something" to sb against goblins (although goblins are easy) over FoW. It is also additional counters against combo, and it's a counter/removal/not-dead cascade against control (miracle in particular).

...and yeah, there is definitely no use for Spell Pierce if Flusterstorm is around. It's not like we will ever side them in against anything non-combo.

Oh, another idea I've been tinkering with for SB against Combo/Control. How about 4 Thalia and a single Tundra? A single Tundra in the board also enables other SB techs that I can't think of right now. Noble Hierarch also makes it smoother on the Tundra.

gesucca

10-05-2012, 05:16 AM

I tested Izzet Charm maindeck, it's something that is worth to try.

For me, it does not make the cut 'cause my meta is infested by RUG and, being exposed to all the denial in the world, it's hard to have those UR to cast a card completly useless in this match up.

Theorically, it solves the problem of the lack of counters maindeck, because if cascaded into it actually do something, even only filtering a pair of cards.

In my list wich runs Ancient Tomb as a 3-of in the Hieracs slots, I've found Cunning Wish as a valid tool for protecting myself against combo while don't ruining the cascade mechanic with cheap counters maindecked or sided in.

I'm going to a little local tournament this evening (I'm from Italy, so now it's morning) to test my list more deeply, so I'll write a report to post my impressions.

EDIT for the mono Tundra and the playset of Thalia, well, I don't think we can support four colours. It's another thing that's worth a chance, but I'm scared that it won't really solve the deck's problems.

catmint

10-05-2012, 05:55 AM

A splash for white against combo/contro sounds interesting, because these decks usually don't kill Hierarchs or run wastelands. We would have access to Thalia & Meddling Mage which are the most poweful hatebears at the moment. Problem is that I would still like to run the flusterstorms, so not sure where to take the additional sideboard slots from, but it is a nice idea.

catmint

10-07-2012, 04:04 PM

Took down my local tourney today with 4-0 (8-0 in matches).
It was a blast to play and since most of the good players in my meta run some UW variants and there is not a lot of RUG tempo the deck is well positioned. It performs very well against Stoenblade (as expected) - I always felt pretty safe & ahead altough I made some minor misplays.

I faced:
Monowhite control with Isochrone Scepter.
UW Stoneblade
Monored Imperial Painter
UWb Stoneblade

The opponents from round 2-4 were all pretty good austrian players, so the deck got some props.

The list:

1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Shardless Agent
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Scanvenging Ooze
2 Bloodbraid Elf

1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the mind sculptor

4 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice

//Sideboard
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Submerge
1 Mind Harness
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell

I only played goyf because I did not have 3 ooze. Still not 100% sure if I want ooze or goyf, but I guess ooze is better. ooze has surely more utility but i did not test enough how good he is against RUG tempo in practice. It is very manaintensive to stop opposing Goyfs/Mongooses and it can be conditionally answered by bolt.

The maindeck library should probably be a jitte. I had so much card advantage in my matches it was truely an overkill. Guess Jitte is much better against RUG & Maverick and deserves the maindeck spot over library.

So still have to test more on how the deck plays out against miracles, RUG & Maverick to see if I can also take it to a larger tournament. I also want to test if some form of permanent based hate is more effective against combo. I am afraid Canonist or Jitte hurt our own deck too much, so Meddling Mage could be an option.

Qweerios

10-08-2012, 07:45 PM

Congratulations on your performance, really good news!

I see you have opted for a 21st land, I was also considering going up to 21-22 lands but I don't know what I would cut. Perhaps the 3rd Ooze or 3rd Bloodbraid.

On the topic of Permanent-based hate, Chalice of the Void is also something to look into.

I have tested against Maverick, RUG, and Miracles. RUG and Maverick are favorable because we have so much removal, and it just keeps on coming. We have too many threats and removal for them to handle. Avoid the T1 Mom and T1 Delver power plays and the matchup is very favorable. As for Miracle, it's a bit trickier. There is no way they can keep up with the amount of threats + cards we draw and it is fairly difficult to deal 20 points of damage before they can entreat for lethal. It is all about keeping 1-2 threats on the field at all times while stacking up counterspells for Entreat. I suggest not wasting any counters on Jaces or StP because you will punch through. Red Blasts, FoW, and Vision is your way to victory. Always hold Clique as well.

Philipp2293

10-11-2012, 01:28 AM

Since my friend Catmint did really well I also decided to try this deck. I played his list with the suggested changes at my locals:

2-1 vs Hulk (loss was after mull 5 and she draws 3 abrupt decay, so I die to dork beatdown since I can't stick anything relevant)
2-0 vs Esperblade (easymode win, flashed in Clique with the last Vision trigger on the stack to remove his last counter)
1-0 vs Esperblade (possibly the best eternal player in my city, easily won G1, then conceeded to be ready for Soccer on time)

Also, instead of the singleton Counterspell in the SB, wouldn't a miser Life from the loam have way more value?

catmint

10-11-2012, 03:09 AM

Nice Philip. If you mean Robert as the best eternal player in Vienna - (I agree)... beat him last sunday in the final. :)

Concerning matchup analysis:
RUG tempo is slightly in their favour I think. I won a couple of games online but the other players were bad. A good player can gain enough tempo advantage to win before we stabilize. Problems are: Stifle is good in the sense of killing 1 hierarch, stifling 1 fetch and wasting 1 land can be GG. Stifle also hits cascade or a natural suspended visions. Also they can reayll abuse daze & spell pierce against our cascading making it awkward. I would not go up to 22 lands though to fight RUG - think that would be too much. Tarmogoyf proofed to be better agaist RUG (ironically - because Mavericks ooze wrecks RUG), however since we fall behind in tempo a lot we need something to "unconditionally" say stop on the ground immediately. If we have so much time too "ooze away their threshold" or their Goyf power, we would probably also win just with the goyf. Therefor I play 2 Goyf, 1 Ooze now, which is kind of random but whatever...:laugh:

Mircales proofed to be muuuch harder than Esper. The 4/4 Angels are a problem such as Counterbalance and they have a better Jace plan (better mana/card selection, more Jace). We can't really stop counterbalance a lot game 1 and they can then easily counter Visions. If that happens a Terminus might be already enough to seal the deal. Therefor I adjusted the SB like this:

2 Mind Harness
1 Submerge
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Engineered Explosives (still good vs. RUG & Maverick, but also against Counterbalance and entreat)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Envelop (hard counter against most combo, also comes in against Miracles, where Bolt goes out)

Loam in the SB is a nice option, I don't see it helping a lot in any problematic matchup (RUG, Miracles, combo)

Einherjer

10-11-2012, 02:31 PM

Im tempted. I really am.

Before taking up a deck I tend to ask different people and talk to them. So I talked to Spartan this evening and he told me, that a italian champion has been playing this deck forever. Without Shardless Agent though ( firstly due to him not being lega and now due to his deckbuild ) - I cannot judge wheter it's better or not - but I do tend to think, that 6 Cascade-guys is pretty much a must. Maybe 7 is the perfect number - I do not know.

But, this guy has been playing Punishing Fires in this builds. So I pondered a little about the idea. It does improve the following MUs:
1) Maverick - shoots down their dorks, easy.
2) Stoneblade - well, as you put it, its a cakewalk in any way?
3) Miracle - we hade quite a long discussion about whether Punishing Fire is good against Miracle or not. We did not come to an conclusion we both were happy with, but we agreed on the following, that Punishing Fire provides a (minimal) clock at least. In addition to this, it turns off the beats from Snapcaster/Clique/Factory plus, and I think this is the most important point, it handles Jace very well. Very very well.

What are you opinions on this? I might go and sleeve this deck up tomorrow before I do another test-session in the afternoon. I cannot concentrate on this deck only, but I will give it a spin.

Greetings

EDIT:Johannes, mind writing Philipps name correctly? It hurts the soul of another Philipp!^^

metamet

10-11-2012, 02:59 PM

Phillipp802,

Do you have his deck list? Pfire is pretty controllie, but I've always been a fan of it whenever it fits.

miko

10-11-2012, 03:03 PM

Sartini has been playing this deck forever. But recently he removed all cascaders from his deck.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9218&iddeck=67334
That is the most recent list I could find.

Punishing Fire is a great card. I've played it in this very deck in about 5-7 tourneys but I'll definitely try and play Fire/Ice instead. Just because it creates card advantage faster than Punishing Fire.

catmint

10-11-2012, 05:55 PM

P. Fire can be very good in some matchups however

P Fire over Bolt?: No, because 1cmc is needed and Bolt is the better card overall

P Fire over Fire//Ice?: No, because random cascading into Ice is much better and the Ice in general has a lot of utility when burn is not relevant like tapping an opponents land in upkeep hoping to get a "timewalk" while cycling through your deck.

Also the card advantage of P. Fire is not needed.
______

Other thoughts:
The Maverick matchup is good I feel. Ooze is of course much better than Goyf in this MU.

I am also running 0 Jitte now - was not too happy with in in testing against RUG and Maverick, which are the decks where it is supposed to do most. Reason is I don't see it having a lot of potential turning a match against RUG around once we are behind. We loose a lot of tempo (and maybe a game) if we cast/equip attack and they then kill/submerge the creature. If we are ahead we do not need Jitte. And Maverick has knight for Maze to stop jitte, so instead of loosing a turn to cast/equip Jitte I would ususally just cast a cascader or Jace to advance the board position. Still, feels wrong not to run jitte in a "fast mana" deck with many creatures.

Esper3k

10-11-2012, 06:14 PM

With 4x Wastelands though, I don't think you really need to worry about Maze of Ith?

Qweerios

10-11-2012, 11:32 PM

In case nobody has noticed yet, I do update the list in the original post quite often. I do play the deck a lot but I probably won't bring it to a tournament for another couple of weeks.

kingtk3

10-12-2012, 12:22 PM

I won a 24 man event yesterday with this list

MAIN
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Ancestral Vision

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will

2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

SIDE
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 krosan grip
4 flusterstorm
2 tormod's crypt
2 trygon predator
2 mind harness

Merfolk
First game I suspend a Vision while he leads with vial, Fire a cursecatcher and a Silvergill, bolt a Lord and procede to win with the card advantage provided by the vision.

-4 Fow, -1 Vendilion, +3 Reb, +2 Trygon

Second game I have a slow hand with some removal but he Dismembers my Noble, which slows me a lot, and has a too many creatures and lords. I die although having an active Jitte on a Trygon for a couple of turns.
Third game I don't remember very well but he has another first turn vial (and a second turn too) while I sit on a hand full of Bolts: some gets countered by Beb, the others make their job and I win with goyf later
Interesting how my opponents have lost both the matches in which he drew Vial: maybe it's too of a dead draw against deck with many spots removal and he could have done better siding them out, morealso because he played Cavern of souls too.

Elves
My opponent was chatting with his friend saying how he won the first match thanks to Emrakul, so I put him on sneak and show or omniscence. This leads me to mulligan a hand with double removal and brainstorm and keep a six with fow and multiple brainstorm which, obviously, is terrible against elves... oh well...

-3 ancestral vision, -3 BBE, +2 mind harness, +4 flusterstorm (I don't want him to resolve zenith or glimpse)

Game 2 and 3 he mulligans and I Fire his drops: GG

U/R Burn
I play land, go. He drops a delver which I bolt, then drop a land and a goyf (having another in hand). He doesn't drop another land but drops another delver. I attack, he flips his delver, brainstorms play a Guide and sets up a miracle for his next turn. However I kill his delver and drop a Jitte and it's GG.

-4 Fow, +4 Flusterstorm (Since I don't mind about his creatures I need only to counter his Price or miracle)

Game 2 he's not very aggressive, maybe because he has some counters, but I get too advantage from my cascade and his deck is not good at recover.

Junk
We ID

Deathrite BUG
he leads with land -> deathrite shaman, but in the following turns don't play any lands, although discards all my Fire/Ice.
I suspend 3 (!!!) Visions but in the meanwhile keep drawing only lands and a Noble, applying no pressure at all. The first Vision get countered, the second stiffled and last resolves giving me a BBE which cascades into a Bolt on the shaman. At this point my opponent concedes.

-4 fow, -1 vendilion, -2 Bolt, +4flusterstorm, +3 Reb

We both mulligan to 6 and the game recalls the first. However he thoughtseizes me three times and misdirect my ancestral on himself. Fortunately his deck doesn't apply so much pressure and after a long attrition war I land a Shardless which, with double exalted, quickly ends the match.

SEMIFINAL Miracle
I play an early Noble then get blessed by the BBE->Shardless->Vision chain that finds me a Jitte, and later they are joined by a Goyf. In the meanwhile the opponent enstablished a countertop lock and swords some of my creatures but I already have lethal on the board thanks to Jitte.

-4 Bolt, -4 Fow, -1 Vendilion, +2 flusterstorm, +3 reb, +2 Trygon, +2 Krosan

We trade creatures for removals but I keep going thanks to cascade and suspended Visions, until the opponent remains with no cards in hand and I'm free to cast BBE for the win.

FINAL Junk
First game is a blowout in his favor: during his third turn (he's on the play) I cast vendilion revealing Vindicate, Waste, Zealous Persecution and Sword of fire and Ice. I chose the Vindicate because I did'nt want to loose two of my lands, and naturally he draws another:... In the following 3 turns he then plays sofi, lavamancer (equipped), shots to my vendilion, swords a goyf, tourach my last 2 cards and casts bob... GG

-2 vendilion, -4 fow, +2 flusterstorm, +2 krosan, +2 Trygon

Game 2 I have double Noble and Jitte and he builds his board with Thalia and Stoneforge Mystic fetching Jitte to kill mine. However I waste some of his lands and kill his SFM so he couldn't play his jitte until he finds a third land, which eventually does. After a couple of swords and flusterstorm a 5/6 goyf is winning the match

Game 3 is like game 1 but in my favor instead: Fire takes care of lavamancer + bob, Noble + Goyf + Jitte put a rapid clock and when he plays batteskull BBE reveals krosan and attacks for the win

So in the end I was very happy with both the main and the side: goyf provided the beats this deck needs to win fast and I always like when I see another (which may upset me in case of Ooze).
I think that I could cut 1 Vision and maybe 1 Vendilion because drawing into multiple visions is awful against some decks and Vendilion is legendary, but I don't know what I could add.

Einherjer

10-12-2012, 01:29 PM

I did some testing this afternoon. Mostly with RUG Tempo and RUG Waterfalls. I took catmints list as a starting point. I took the 2/1 split of Goyf/Ooze too, even though I know he only played it that way, because he had no access to more Oozes.

My (personal) conclusion:
I think Tarmogoyf is stronger than Scavenging Ooze. Especially in MUs like RUG Tempo. Yes, an Ooze is very good when you have enough mana/time, but once they started the tempo-plan you neither have mana nor time. That were the times, when Goyf was stricly better than Ooze. In addition to this, you never want to cascade into 2 Ooze, but cascading into 2 Goyf is no problem.
Jace is essential to my point of view. I never missed any kind of equipment like Jitte - Jace just seemed optimal to close mid/lategames. Setting very powerful Cascades like Elf into Agent into X up is very strong.
3 Vendilion Clique were a little much from time to time, but their role in the deck seems to be very important, so I wouldnt cut any of those. Maybe one.. Not sure yet.

So I'd much rather play the full playset of Tarmogoyfs. Ill cut the 1of Ooze for sure. Maybe the 3rd Clique too.

Some funny story by the way: Me and my test-partner switch the decks we test every few rounds. So I gave him Waterfalls and while he picked up the deck he said "Lets try Waterfalls!" While doing so he knocked the glass of water standing beneath him over and made it fall over my Sideboard-collection for pretty much all my decks.... well... nice Waterfalls there.... ^^

Greetings

catmint

10-15-2012, 04:54 AM

congrats kingt - I would try playing jace and going down with BBE. It just adds such a different angle of attack most decks are not prepared for. Cutting Visions is tempting, but I think I want to max out on cascading into it.

I came to similar conclusions concerning Goyf Philipp. The RUG matchup make him a necessity and multiples are good. Ooze's utility is very valuable in many matchups but I guess we have to live without it.

____________

I played yesterday in a small combo infested tourney. In round 1: Lost pretty clear to Show & Tell. No chance g1 and despite 3 counterspells g2 no chance against his nut-draw. Round 2, I won against a storm variant but I played so horrible that I decided to scoop since he let me take back my surgical which I decided to cast on 2 life. :rolleyes:

Anyway it made me think about the combo matchup again and want to come back to the discussion we had before about permanent vs. counterspell based hate.
Fact is that both Show&Tell and Storm are very well prepared versus counterspell based hate and with 5 slots sidebaord + 4 FoW we still have much less than RUG Tempo. You can put up a fight with manadenial (wasteland+icing their lands), clique & a fast clock, but I feel that the 5 slots in the SB are not improving the matchups to the necessary extent that would make them worth it, but I can imagine that some permanent based hate hits them cold because they do not expect it.

So when we talk about permanent based hate, we have to go into white, but including 1 Tundra + the hierarchs should be fine. So I am brainstorming about the possible options and most importantly thinking about their applications against storm/Show&Tell combo but also against the other important matchups.

- Thalia: not an option - hurts us too much.

- Pyrostatic Pillar: Best option against all Storm Variants + Elves (which are not a big problem anyway). Against Show&Tell i guess it can make 2-8 damage befor they go off, since they usually play 12 cantrips, burning wish & overmaster - that might be something?. Don't think that card deservers a slot against Miracles, Esper or Maverick.

- Meddling Mage: Best option against Show&Tell, decent against Storm. Good against Miracles.

- Chalice of the Void: Chalice alone does not stop storm or show&tell, but it can slow them down in specific situations. It would be good against RUG, altough how to kill their delver without our own lightning bolt. :)

- Teeg: almost nothing against Show&Tell. Very good against Storm variants and Miracles. You can argue that we want our own Jace against Miracles, but he hurts them much more and eats removal while we beat-down; can imagine they would be really annoyed by it.

- Canonist: We have to side-out BBE, but cascading still works with Shardless Agent. It is like pillar very good against storm variants, but does almost nothing against Show&Tell. Hurts us as well so no option vs. any non combo deck.

- Detention Sphere/Oblivion Ring: Obviously Super good against Show & Tell. Even if they put in Griselbrand and Draw 7 cards, I feel we can win because we should have some creatures on the board. Detention Sphere has fringe applications against Empty the warrens, but it basically does nothing against Storm. Versus Miracles Sphere is an answer to Jace (maybe counterbalance) but more important Entreat, which can turn around games. So although Sphere can be red-blasted I would still op to go for that over oblivion Ring. Detention Sphere is also another answer to a Knight, but it is a very bad card against RUG tempo.

I am not looking at other 3 CMC permanent hate, because I want to find it with Shardless Agent. Can't think of anything else right now - would appreciate if you could also put some thought into that.

______________
So in the current meta I would prepare for Show&Tell primarily and the best option for that is meddling mage. Since that card is also good against Miracles, which is a tough one and can buy enough time versus storm, I am happy including 4 in the sideboard. The good thing is that in all matches where you want to bring in Mage, Bolt is weak so you can leave in all cascaders when you bring in Mage, which makes the cascades then function as a "mage tutor". Against Miracles hierarch should come out as well because of Terminus, which makes casting mage a bit hard though.

So my current idea is that I want to max out the SB against Show&Tell & Miracles - hoping to dodge Storm. Btw.: Mage is also decent against Dredge naming Cabal Therapy

4 Meddling Mage
2 Detention Sphere
2 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
2 Surgical Extractions
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sulfur Elemental

In a storm heavy meta I would run 2-3 Pyrostatic Pillar. Concerning Maindeck changes. I am thinking about replacing Library with Ponder, since it is the better manafixer (more relevant running 1 Tundra now) and you do not "fall behind" in tempo against RUG that much.

Qweerios

10-16-2012, 02:52 AM

I think thalia is good. I play Thalia in a Bant Vial deck (Big Two) along with Daze and SB Spell Pierce, and it is very powerful. Thalia will give you a clock against SnT and Storm and will buy you a turn (the one it came into play upon). After that, it's only a matter of leaving mana open for a Red Blast or a Flusterstorm. You can also afford to have Omniscience resolve because you can simply Blast it afterwards. The fact that it cripples subsequent Cascades is irrelevant in the matchups where she is needed.

Against Miracles, I don't think Detention Sphere helps much at all. I also think siding out FoW against Miracles is wrong. This matchup isn't that bad to begin with. We have 4 FoW and 3 Cliques main as well as enough CA to outlast their stalling tactics (StP + Terminus) I think a couple of Meddling Mages here and there and a few Red Blasts are enough to seal the deal.

Canonist, Teeg, and Chalice are all worst than Thalia IMO.

Also, for the SnT MU, Flusterstorm wins counter wars and REB is a hard counter. Detention Sphere is OK but I don't see it having much good application outside of SnT.

All in all, a combination of Meddling Mage, Thalia, REB, and Flusterstorm is what I suggest.

How about this:

1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Meddling Mage

catmint

10-16-2012, 04:22 AM

Haven't tested thalia - maybe you are right that it is good overall and does not hurt us that much in the matchups where we use her - however if you compare detention sphere vs. thalia in the show&tell match, the sphere is miles better (don't even need to cast it) ;). And against Miracles: I think the matchups is quite hard vs. a decent opponent but surely a fight. The way they win is:

- Terminus into Jace - we have no answers or our answers are handled.
- Counterbalancing visions away.
- creating a bunch of 4/4 flying angels.

Against all of those lines detention sphere is pretty helpful. Sure they might have a 3cmc to counter the sphere with balance, but it is much less likely than them having a 1 for red-blast...and of course I do not side out FoW against the Miracle matchup.

Another comment to ReB or Flusterstorm against Show&Tell: Overmaster; also they can just counter back the REB.

Qweerios

10-16-2012, 04:41 AM

I like the REB because they interact with the board and the stack against a lot of decks. Miracle-control-blade.dec has Jace, FoW, Counterspell, Snapcaster, and Counterbalance. Cascading into it is almost as good as having it in your hand. I don't think Terminus + Jace is that much of an issue. I have found that in most of my matches against Miracle, they do not have the planing or resources to land that combination while they deal with the pressure and cascade pressure we put on. When they do end up assembling a Terminus + Jace turn, they are often left with less cards in their hand than us, therefore we have a window to break that board position or match the CA. I think the real deal breaker is EoT Entreat for lethal after a game of debilitating 1-for-1.

I agree that Sphere is one of the best cards against SnT. You are probably right in the sense that it is superior to REB when it comes down to Miracle and SnT exclusively.

I could definitely see Detention Sphere replace Krosan Grip though, maybe as a 3-of since it has wider application.

How about this:

1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Meddling Mage
3 Detention Sphere

catmint

10-16-2012, 05:03 AM

Good point: with Detention sphere Krosan Grip might not be needed that much. I like the insurance versus counterbalance and batterskulls/Jitte and such. I'll surely test out different SB configration over the next couple of weeks. Maybe there are also other approaches/ideas we haven't considered yet.

Edit: for me Sulfur Elemental is not that important. Lingering souls is usually easily dealt with and thalias/mothers as well. I am more concerned about the big maverick creatures...

kingtk3

10-16-2012, 08:00 AM

I didn't get to test against Show and Tell decks, but I've won a couple of tournaments with Omniscence. I think that Meddling Mage it's not the best hate because he doesn't shut off the combo (since first thing to name should be burning wish) nor slows the opponent plays, or if he does the opponent can Burning Wish for options. Moreover he dies to pyroclasm and REB, which are very likely to be seen post side.

Thalia may be better because slows the game enough for us to have enough time to kill the opponents, and Oblivion ring is an uncouterable removal for whatever is beign show and tell'ed (Oblivion is also better than Detention Sphere aganist Show And Tell because cannot be REB'ed).

However I don't like the idea of splashing a fourth color because I feel that the mana base is already weak: you need your three colors soon for Bolt/Noble/Brainstorm. Maybe a couple of Thorn of Amethyst could improve the matchup, otherwise I'd stick with more counter and a fast clock.

catmint

10-16-2012, 09:38 AM

I don't think the 4th color is a problem to be honest, but I also do not see the manabase as weak. Yes you do need all colors early, but compared to Esper or RUG we do not need UU that much (as in Ponder/Brainstorm + Pierce/Stifle). Only double mana spells we have are vendilion clique/Jace but I never had an issue with those. Sure, if things go bad and RUG tempo has Stifle, Wasteland, Bolt for our manasource it might just be GG, but in this scenario having 1 "Tundra aka wasteable island" instead of fetch # 9 or Tropical #3 does not make that much of a difference (Sure it can mean you loose a game in a given situation, but the overall % of that happening is super-low). I've been playing many games with 20 lands + 4 hierarch, so adding this minor vulnerability in a 21 land build is ok with me. To make up for it, I play 1 Ponder instead of the Sylvan Library. Ponder usually resolves (library very often not), can be cast for U and with the immideate draw it is a better manafixer. Cascading into Ponder is also not embarrassing, so I am even considering going down to 3 Fire//Ice and up to 2 Ponder.

In the matchups where we bring in the white spells do not run Wasteland, so a couple of hiearch + 8 blue fetch + 1 Tundra will do the trick here, so manabase is not an issue there.

Concerning your evalution of hatebears vs. Show&Tell (which I too played a lot): I did indeed forget about REB making the Meddling Mage plan a lot less atractive.
Oblivion Ring is better if we want to focus on Show&Tell - if you also want to use it against miracles the sphere is better. Depending on how much of a consideration that is one can make the right decision.

Qweerios

10-16-2012, 02:45 PM

I really value Sulfur Elemental because a T1 Mom when maverick is on the play = GG if you don't have a Bolt or can't Brainstorm one. It has happened to me before on several occasions, the 3/2 Split Second Flash Mom/Thalia hoser is worth it. It also takes down Death and Taxes quite convincingly.

TraxDaMax

10-16-2012, 04:29 PM

Has anybody tried Lorescale Coatl. In goldfishing it seems pretty strong with Jace TMS , Ancestral Visions and Brainstorm.

catmint

10-16-2012, 05:50 PM

TraxDaMax

10-16-2012, 06:26 PM

Play Coatl instead of?
In the end just a big beater for 3 mana. 3 mana creatures in legacy have to do a lot more like shardless, vendilion, knight of the reliquary, lingering souls, snapcaster mage...

Sure Sulfur is superstrong against Maverick ... especially in this deck. Question is if it is needed - SB space has to be balanced to support bad matchups. Still not happy with the combo situation.

Well, I feel sometimes that this deck has no real beef like a deck like Maverick or Aggroloam have lategame.

And it can just get out of hand pretty fast. Not having evasion sucks but it does pitch to FoW.
Still, was just a question as I have only goldfished the deck. And it makes sense that vanilla creatures are not what we are searching for, although 10/10's for 3 mana seem legit in any deck that wants to beat face.

Nidd

10-16-2012, 06:29 PM

Play Coatl instead of?
In the end just a big beater for 3 mana. 3 mana creatures in legacy have to do a lot more like shardless, vendilion, knight of the reliquary, lingering souls, snapcaster mage...

Sure Sulfur is superstrong against Maverick ... especially in this deck. Question is if it is needed - SB space has to be balanced to support bad matchups. Still not happy with the combo situation.
Squeeze some Izzet Charms in, then. You will have to address this matchup and you should be happy they printed a card like this, which is perfectly maindeckable and never dead.
You either accept that you will have some bad Cascades post board VS Combo and just play Spell Pierce, or you side out your Cascade cards to play a worse version of Thresh post board, or you run cards like Izzet Charm that are flexible, never really dead, but also never really stellar.

If this comes off as offensive or I'm plain and simple missing the point of this deck, I'm sorry, but to me it seems like you are complaining about a problem to which you already have a solution which you simply don't want.
Izzet Charm is never dead. Play that card.

catmint

10-16-2012, 06:44 PM

Thanks for the input - I did not think about izzet charm - maybe i missed it beeing discussed, but I can't remember actively rejecting it. I am also not "complaining"; I just want to find out the best options to have good matchups against an open field. The top non-linear decks do so and if I choose for this instead, i need to solve some problems. The suggestions in this thread were very helfpul, so I hope you guys are not annoyed by me pondering about combo/[miracles]/canadian, but this is where I see the biggest weaknesses.

Anyway: -2 Fire + 2 charm sounds like a good start. sometimes looting will be even much better than the ice when cascaded into.

Other things that came to my mind are:

Vexing Shusher: Looks supergood against miracles and if show&tell does not have overmaster our counter works for sure.

Judges Familiar: Since it flies exhalted it could be maindeck material to annoy people? Little embarrassing in defense though, but it might be worth to try it out. Not sure what to cut though.

Martyr of the Frost: Again not solving the red-blast problem against show&tell, but at least a decent counterspell you can cascade into. The fact that it is an ability and cant be countered back by counterspells or counterbalance/discarded by duress makes it look very attractive.

Nidd

10-16-2012, 07:11 PM

TkDodo

10-17-2012, 01:48 PM

Anyway: -2 Fire + 2 charm sounds like a good start. sometimes looting will be even much better than the ice when cascaded into.

Other things that came to my mind are:

Vexing Shusher: Looks supergood against miracles and if show&tell does not have overmaster our counter works for sure.

Judges Familiar: Since it flies exhalted it could be maindeck material to annoy people? Little embarrassing in defense though, but it might be worth to try it out. Not sure what to cut though.

Martyr of the Frost: Again not solving the red-blast problem against show&tell, but at least a decent counterspell you can cascade into. The fact that it is an ability and cant be countered back by counterspells or counterbalance/discarded by duress makes it look very attractive.

A split of fire/ice and charm sounds indeed promising.
Before playing bad cards like Martyr of Frost, you should consider Voidmage Prodigy. Yes, it costs UU to activate and UU to hardcast, but:

.) It's a hardcouter. Martyr looks embarassing if you have 1-2 blue cards in hand.
.) It can sac other Wizards, like Vendilion Clique, or Meddling Mage if necessary.
.) Kai Budde made it.
.) It bashes for 2.
.) You can dodge REB by playing it morphed and then countering their spell for UUU. Not that this is good, but it's at least a possibility.

Also, I don't think the color requirements are an issue because combo decks tend to not ineract with your mana base or your Hierarchs a lot.

catmint

10-17-2012, 04:18 PM

UU to cast and UU to activate compared to U to cast and 2 to activate is a big deal. Not that much in terms of colored mana, but if you cannot make it a turn 1 play you can only activate it turn 3.

saccing meddling mage or vendilion clique does not sound like a good plan unless you have 1UUUUU to play another clique the same turn.

the morph trick looks funny because it can surprise a lot of people altough you need to "tap out" for 3 and then have another UUU so thats probably only helping once you untap again.

if the number of blue cards is an issue has to be tested. In my current builds i would have 28+blue cards post board. I'll test a 2/2 split of those in the SB and see how it goes.

TkDodo

10-17-2012, 04:31 PM

UU to cast and UU to activate compared to U to cast and 2 to activate is a big deal. Not that much in terms of colored mana, but if you cannot make it a turn 1 play you can only activate it turn 3.

I was under the impression that the idea was to find a Counterspell that you can cascade into. Of course, especially against combo, casting it T1 or T2 IS a big issue. However, unless you board 4 of those, you should not put too much weight on the fact that one is a T1 play while the other isn't. Also, postboard games tend to be slower because they slow down their combo engine as well with boarding in some hate.

saccing meddling mage or vendilion clique does not sound like a good plan unless you have 1UUUUU to play another clique the same turn.

I think it is a good plan. If you have Vendilion and Martyr, and they REB or bounce your Martyr or Pyroclasm your board, you die to SnT. If you have Voidmage, you don't.

Qweerios

10-18-2012, 01:08 AM

I tested a 2/2 split of Fire Ice and Izzet Charm against Zoo, Sligh, Goblins, and Dragon Stompy. I know Charm was suggested to improve the SnT and Miracle matchups, but damn, Izzet Charm sucks in practice.

The damage can't be split, it cant hit Planeswalkers, It can't hit life totals.
The draw/discard ability is worthless when topdecking a cascader, and casting it for card filtering is straight card disadvantage.
I also never have any mana open to use it as a Spell Pierce even when I specificaly try to make plays that would leave UR mana open.

I like the Voidmage Prodigy tech. It certainly needs testing though.

kingtk3

10-18-2012, 04:44 AM

@Catmint: sorry I don't remember and I can't read the last posts, but are you looking for an answer to combo in general or against Show and Tell decks?

For the former I would go with flusterstorm and Rebs (if needed), although I realize is a kind of generic answer that does not considers deck like Aluren or Food chain.

For the latter I'd play Krosan Grip and Venser, shaper savant, in addition to a mix of flusterstorm and rebs:
Krosan Grip - if they show and tell into omniscence or sneak attack we can put into play a creature with a triggered ability, creating a hole in the stack to play krosan before they could play something relevant. Even if we don't have such a creature is not uncommon for an Omniscence deck to play some cantrip/tutor before casting the real threat, so that we can destroy the enchantment.
Venser - he bounces everything they show and tell, he's Fow pitchable, he's out of cascade. I think it's the best incolor answer to show and tell.

Regarding Miracle, honestly I don't see it as a problematic matchup: they have a 1CC wrath that is a VIRTUAL card advantage, but we have REAL card advantage in the form of visions and cascaders (and Jitte to some extent), we have a clock, we have reach and we have counters too. We only need to keep at least two threat in hand while applying pressure, which is easy with cascade and visions.

catmint

10-18-2012, 04:56 AM

Piceli89

10-18-2012, 06:05 AM

I am thinking about SB slots vs. combo - Show&Tell is the main consideration, but in Europe you also have to prepare for storm. I first tested Flusterstorm and other counterspells, but what I don't like about that plan is that this is what combo decks excpect and what they are prepared for. Don't get me wrong - we do have game, but since g1 is negative the matchup has to be improved more significantly g2. The idea with permanent based hat is that it is harder for them to interact with and has a synergy with cascade.

The cascade mechanic is pretty lackluster in the matchups where you can't really afford to tap out. The general consensus about this deck against combo, at least here, is that a mix of REBs, Flusterstorms and Vendilion Cliques are what it makes Show and Tell and Tendrils affordable. You just have to side out as much as BBE (if playing them)/Agent as possible, keeping those numbers to a mininum (Agent still pitches to Force), and become a RUG-midrange aggro/control that beats in the air with flash threats and with Tarmogoyf, carefully considering when to tap out to play it. It is true that those cards are the usual suspects everyone is aware of, but they still deliver a good job when played tightly. Stuff like Martyr of Frost is easily playable around, while Voidmage Prodigy is slow as hell, and these combination of colours doesn't provide any hatebear.

Playing suboptimal soft-hate cards that fit the cascade requirements when cascade cards themselves are bad in these scenarios is not really worth it, and also force you to warp your cantrips to be able to trigger into them.

Otherwise, Sartini used to run 1-2 Mindbreak Trap when ANT was really big; I still think Flusterstorm has way more all-around value, though.

catmint

10-19-2012, 04:35 AM

Sure, that is also what we all played. Problem I see if you side out cascaders for counterspells, you still run bolts & visions. That and the fact that some flusterstorms/REBs are often not enough made me think about permanent alternatives. Maybe you are right that these permanent counterspells are bad, but I like to try out new things. Also 1 Tundra + HIerarch enables white for hatebears. Btw Piceli: Clean up your inbox on thesource, so I can answer your PM. :tongue:

Qweerios

10-20-2012, 03:53 PM

How about a black splash for Thoughtseize and/or Cabal Therapy instead of white? I know Hierarch adds white but how about Deathrite Shaman? Hes better as a cascade target and gives us some good MD GY hate without going overboard on Oozes. He also provides additional reach to complement the burn suite.

catmint

10-21-2012, 04:49 AM

Black would be the best sideboard color for our concerns, however shaman is much worse than hierarch in this deck I am afraid. Hierarch does so much work with exalted. A 2/2 vanilla on the board is really not doing it. But if you have 1 or 2 hierarchs it is something, especially if the opponent matches your creatures. Also Hierarchs is a lot better in multiples and we are not even assured of shaman giving mana. These are all substantial disadvantages, but we can't even reliably use shamans advantages, since exiling instants/sorcery costs black. So the combo matchup would be a lot better with black, but all the other matchups would suffer significantly without hierarch I think.

kingtk3

10-21-2012, 09:23 AM

While I agree with Catmint, I've made a little effort to splash black in the deck.
Changing Nobles with Deathrite requires to accomodate the manabase. Right now I play

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 wooded foothills
1 scalding tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Ideally, at least 2 black mana source are needed, and possibly one basic Swamp:

MAIN
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
2 wooded foothills
1 scalding tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 badlands
1 swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

4 Deathrite shaman
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Ancestral Vision

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will

3 cabal therapy

SIDE
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
3 flusterstorm
2 tormod's crypt
2 trygon predator
3 abrupt decay
2 thoughtseize

Note that I haven't tested the deck at all: it's merely speculation.

TkDodo

10-21-2012, 03:50 PM

Just a general question on the mana bases: Is it really necessary to play 4 Wastelands?
I mean, its not RUG Tempo which has no lategame and also has stifles and taxing counters to make perfect use of it.
Its also not Maverick which can tutor them up with Knight or can go T1 Land -> accel; T2 Wasteland -> Thalia to screw you.
So why is it? If your plan is to accelerate with Hierarchs into Cliques, Cascader and Jaces and go to a lategame where your cardavantage buries them, Wastleand seems out of place. If Maze of Ith or other utility lands are an issue (which I don't know because I don't play this deck, but assume because you are all about striking with an exalted creature) then sure, play 2 Wastelands or 1 Wasteland 1 Dust Bowl. With that much filter and Visions it shouldn't be a problem to find them. You could free up some space for color producing lands, which are probably needed if you want to go 4-color. Or you could add another business spell (top or ponder or whatnot).

Zirath

10-21-2012, 04:45 PM

catmint

10-22-2012, 04:49 AM

Maybe you are right and cutting wastelands is the right decision. Against Canadian I would love to have more colored lands/basics of course. Never really tested it like that. When I picked up the deck I also questioned wastelands and actively looked at how they play out - I can only remember them beeing awesom or not "hurting", but maybe I did not look enough at the situations where wasteland color-screwed me.

Wasteland does have synergy in this deck with Visions and Hierarch. Ice is also often used aggressively as "Rishadan Port". And if wasting was not helpful it was a colorless land drop which the deck can also make good use of.

Qweerios

10-23-2012, 02:27 AM

I wouldn't go below 3 Wastelands, Maze of Ith, Karakas, as well as a few others can be very difficult to get through. Also, playing maindeck Therapy isn't the point of splashing black. I think deathrite deserves more attention than we give him. It is true that Noble is great for his reliable mana production as well as Exalted boost, but he is nowhere near as impactful as a Deathrite on most games, and nowhere near as focal for some matchups. The ability to exile cards in GY and gain life really helps the RUG, Maverick, Sligh, Burn, Dredge, Reanimator, etc... matchups while Exalted is poor in comparison. That alone makes it a better choice even for a non-black-splash version. That's also not counting the reach that the shock ability provides. I think that what's left to test is the reliability of the mana producing ability of Deathrite. The SB options in black also look more promising than the white ones IMO.

catmint

10-23-2012, 03:03 AM

But then I would play BUG ... Deathrite is only attractive if you can reliably exile instants and sorceries to hose snapcaster mage. For that purpose you need a lot of black mana

Qweerios

10-24-2012, 12:09 AM

Why a lot? Don't you just need one?

I went 2-2-0 today with the following:

Creatures (16)
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Shardless Agent
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (23)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Meddling Mage
3 Oblivion Ring

2-0 vs. Lands
2-1 vs. BG Pox
1-2 vs. Loam
0-2 vs. Goblins

Fun fact, I Clique'd away LftL twice against Loam and my opponent drew another... The goblins matches were abysmall, I ended up drawing 20+ cards to fail to find a threat. Aside from that, I think a black splash would be far superior to a white one. Deathrite is a massive upgrade from Noble. Not only that, but I also believe that Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy are also superior to Meddling Mage, Thalia, and O-Ring for a cascade deck. Engineered Plague is also more promising than Sulfur Elemental, and so is Abrupt Decay vs. KGrip/Submerge. I intend on making the following changes:

Main
-4 Noble
-1 Jitte
-1 Tundra

+4 Deathrite
+2 Underground Sea

Side
-Everything

+4 Cabal Therapy
+4 Thoughtseize
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Engineered Plague
+2 Nihil Spellbomb

catmint

10-24-2012, 02:50 AM

What I mean with "a lot" of black mana is that to use the shaman effectively you basically "always" want black mana. Compare that to the maindeck Tundra - you never fetch for it so it only hurts you if you draw it. If you have shaman in play you want to fetch for the underground sea... You might still be able to cast everything because the shaman can also get red mana now, but still I think it hurts the maindeck mana much more than the white splash. Not convinced that either splash makes the deck better... but looking forward to hear your results.

Qweerios

10-24-2012, 04:24 AM

Deathrite has been MVP so far in testing against RUG, Loam, and Lands. He has been eating Bolts and Submerges like a champ, he's just that scary. Surprisingly enough, I haven't been using his swamp ability that much, it only happens when I am going on the offensive. A great deterent for Snapcaster, all you need is an open fetch/Udg Sea and your opponent won't cast any. Truly a welcomed cascade. It blows my mind to see how I managed to take down RUG (50/50, I won all my matches but they were too close to call it a favorable MU) with a 4-colored deck. Overall, I really like having 6 maindeck GY hate/life gain creatures, they improve so many matchups drasticaly.

The Decays have also been great against numerous decks. They usualy come in to replace FoW and they take down Goyf, Delver, Ensnaring Bridge, SFM, and Counterbalance like no other. I loved them so much that I will probably try a couple in the maindeck if I ever find space.

The E-Plagues are also great against any tribal deck(outsets lords and seals the game along with Fire // Ice) as well as the usual Maverick/DnT (Humans = Thalia/Mom/KotR).

I haven't got around testing Thoughtseize yet but I think they will replace Bolts/Fires against dedicated control decks (Miracle!), and ofc, come in against combo.

Greenpoe

10-26-2012, 12:06 AM

Einherjer

10-26-2012, 04:03 AM

Have you guys considered Natural Order at all? Since your creatures are pretty small, NO would turn them into huge threats. Something like -2 Jace, -1 Jitte, -1 Fire//Ice, +3 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus. (You could save the Jaces for the SB.) Because let's face it, dropping a 10/10 on turn 3 with counterbackup is just awesome, and seems like it could really help out a lot of your matchups. The CA from Visions would offset the card disadavantage from NO in case they dealt with it, anyway.

I incline to disagree.

Remember, changing/swapping gameplans should bring at least one important thing: Make bad MUs easier, right? So, what are this deck's bad MUs? Based on my, limited, testings Show and Tell, Stormcombo and to some degree Miracles. Now, take your time and figure, whether these MUs get improved by adding the NO-package to your deck. In addition to this, Spell Pierce is a commonly played card right now, and I don't see a reason playing an CC4 spell, that provides CDA when being countered. And even if it resolves, all the bad MUs can just ignore it. Show and Tell will keep swinging with Emrakul, Stormcombo will Tendrils you for 20, regardless of that Hydra sitting there. And Miracle? Well Miracle just might Terminus it away. Super-CDA.

Feel free to correct me though, as I do not have too much of experience with that deck.

Greetings

Qweerios

10-29-2012, 10:45 PM

I have an tournament coming up where a 3-man team plays 3 different formats (standard, modern, legacy). I will be playing Legacy and I intend on playing the following:

Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Shardless Agent
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (22)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will

4 Ancestral Vision

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

I am still unsure about the sideboard and wether I want the basic Mountain in this setup at all. I would like a second Spellbomb, and maybe 1-2 Kgrip/Ancient Grudge for good measure. However, I love what Decay brings to the table postboard and how easy handling Goyf, KotR, as well as problematic artifact/enchantments become. A classic SB configuration would incline me to play splits but I'm afraid cascade opens a whole new can of worms where having 4 copies of the most versatile spells is more optimal.
Any suggestions?

EpicLevelCommoner

10-30-2012, 01:31 AM

Hai Qweerios!

Now that urgent matter of business has been attended to, I have to ask: what should the core of this deck be?

So far I've boiled it down to this:

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Shardless Agent
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Island

But 20 slots is a lot of flex room, and I'm unsure where to start. I'm actually thinking either turbo Threshold with Wheel of Fate, Nimble Mongoose, and Tarmogoyf, or an burn-heavy build with Snapcaster and Delver. Thoughts?

Qweerios

10-30-2012, 11:32 AM

I think that a midgame strategy is about the fastest we can hope for in a cascade deck. This is made clear by the fact that Shardless and Bloodbraid are both low impact creatures for a relatively high mana cost. The deck also plays Ancestral Vision, which on its own is a very slow card.

Concerning the core of the deck, I think it's still up in the air. Cascade is still a very experimental archetype. One thing is certain, though, BBE, AVision, and Shardless don't belong in a tempo shell.

Qweerios

10-31-2012, 01:07 AM

Took second place today with RUGb:

2-1 vs. Goblins
0-2 vs. Merfolk
2-0 vs. Loam
2-0 vs. Helm/RiP Combo

The merfolk went on to first place so my tiebreakers were good enough to warrant second place. I used the following list:

Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Shardless Agent
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (22)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Fire // Ice
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Ancestral Vision

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Fire // Ice
2 Krosan Grip
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Engineered Plague
2 Nihil Spellbomb

I finally put my hands on 3 more Decays so I will definitely include a couple more in the mainboard. I am also begining to doubt having 4 Wasteland. I feel like I've been pretty lucky so far in getting away with such a greedy manabase, and if I intend on including mainboard Decays, I ought to rethink that a little.

As much as I love Clique, I've had situations where the multiples did hurt me, and where Clique is simply irrelevant and/or underpowered. I will try going down to 2 and see how this goes. Also, Jace is another one of those cards that have been letting me down lately. More often than not I find myself siding Jace out for additional removal/disruption. I only really like him in the control matchup where he feels win-more. I think I would rather have another Bloodbraid than the second Jace.

Oh, Thoughtseize and Therapy completely ripped RiP/Helm combo appart...

catmint

10-31-2012, 04:30 AM

I would also recommend cutting wastelands eintirely if you play a 4 color deck. :)

Abrupt Decay would be exclusively SB card for me... I like it applications agains Delver & Counterbalance.

Instead of Engineered Plague I would go for slots that are good against Maverick & RUG -> Submerge or Mind Harness

I dont understand your feelings for Jace. For me he was just incredible most of the time. I would keep playing him if I were you and try to keep an open mind evaluating him... Don't focus on 1-2 situations where he was bad. :)

Qweerios

10-31-2012, 01:53 PM

EPlague is great against a lot of matchups that you wouldn't expect it to be. I frequently use it against Enchantress (Druids) and Maverick (Humans). It effectively takes out Mom, Thalia, and Hierarch. It also works against DnT and kills Mom, Thalia, Mangara, and sometimes Flickerwisp if you're in a pinch.

The thing about Jace is that he always comes down when I am already winning. I find it difficult to "get back" into a game if I draw a Jace, but I find it rather common with BBE. I have moved him to the SB

I find the deck can have a rather slow start where you try to establish your manabase and deny your opponent's creatures but when it kicks in, it comes down hard. I believe BBE is the most cost-effective card in the deck because it is a superbe aggressive/tempo/CA play. If you are already on top of the game, BBE will bury your opponent deeper, while if your opponent is on top of you, you have a better shot at turning things around than if you had, say, a Jace.

Also, I've been testing with different amounts of Wastelands and I don't find 4 colors to make the deck too unstable. If you look at my mainboard, I have 4 Deathrite that work independantly of black mana since the black ability rarely kicks in before the lategame, and I currently have 2 Abrupt Decays. If anything, replacing White with Black for Deathrite strengthens the manabase. Tundra used to be a nonbasic Island while UDG Sea now acts the same way but can cast Deathrite as well. Overall, the deck is still basically in the RUG colors. The light splash enters the picture when you start including cards like Abrupt Decay that can't be played independantly of black mana. However, I think Decay is a must in the main, and so is Wasteland as they both answers things that we are otherwise cold to.

The Treefolk Master

10-31-2012, 09:53 PM

Hi,

I've been reading this thread since it started, since I really like the cascade mechanic and see a lot of potential in it. I've built the deck and played a few games vs. a friend (stoneblade), and destroyed him thanks to the advantage provided by the cascade mechanic and Ancestral Vision.

I have a question regarding the deck: I've seen several people in the past pages discuss Tarmogoyf vs. Scavenging Ooze, a discussion where Tarmogoyf came on top, given it is faster and less mana intensive. However, I see Qweerios (and thus this question is primarily directed to you) is running 2 Scavenging Ooze MD. This got me thinking, that even though Scavenging Ooze is worse in multiples (I've always though that Tarmogoyf should be included as either a 4of or 0), running 2 reduces this problem. Furthermore, Scavenging Ooze gives us a way to interact with graveyard decks in preboard games, and destroys Knight of the Reliquary (what I think is Maverick's greatest threat against us), Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster Mage, and a huge etc. which, while not being absolutely central strategies to a deck (as opposed to say, Life from the Loam everywhere its played), may provide a large part of a deck's power (Lingering Souls buys SO much time, although that becomes less of a problem vs. Fire//Ice).

Therefore, my question is if all the advantages brought by Ooze's MD inclusion outweigh the slowness and mana intensiveness it bring to the deck (as opposed to Tarmogoyf, which is just a cheap dumb beater).

I'd also like to share 2 brief results from my testing:

Jitte is awesome. I've been running 2 MD copies, and it has been completely groundbreaking, it annihilates any aggro deck, singlehandedly beats Stoneforge Mystics, can race EtW tokens, etc. I highly recommend using it.

I feel similar to Qweerios regarding Jace, if I can use it succesfully, I was already winning, and it does not put me back in the game if I'm losing. I'd much rather run Bloodbraid Elf, which is always awesome and I always want to see. I have therefore upped my BBE count to 4, and cut the single, remaining Jace for an extra (21) lands, and the deck dies to screw less often now.

EpicLevelCommoner

11-04-2012, 05:44 PM

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/334698

Next Level Zoo, or an attempt at Tempo Waterfalls.

imo, Cascade should always be worthwhile. Never dead removal: always gas. This leaves two options: damage (either burn or beats), or CA/CQ to dig into more gas.

However, I'll be the first to admit that my list is quite sub-par ... namely because Zoo's best creatures in fact require a splash of white. Plus Jitte feels rather thrown in, though certainly better than Cursed Scroll in this version.

Qweerios

11-04-2012, 08:53 PM

My team finished 9th today at the peculiar tournament I mentioned earlier. Here's my Legacy performance:

0-2 vs. UB Dark Dept/Hexmage combo

I lost G1 to Marrit Lage out of the blue and went on to punt on the second game after having drawn 7 cards. In retrospect, I also boarded poorly, a bad start...

2-1 vs. Combo Elves

I lost G1 but took G2-3 with ease (EPlague).

2-0 vs. BG Pox

Pox can't really keep us in check and suspending AVision is great in this MU. My opponent stabilized in both games but I eventually drew enough burn to win both games.

2-0 vs. Miracle Control

I had enough reach to kill my opponent everytime Entreat happened.

1-2 vs. RUG Delver

G1 was a walk in the park. G2 I mulled to 5 and was denied the entire game. G3 was well in my favor but a topdecked Rough/Tumble with a Mongoose on a 6-cards-GY nailed me as I was holding a Bolt, a Decay, two lands, and drew an AV. This is where we lost our shot at the finals.

2-0 vs. Esperblade

I had an answer for everything my opponent threw at me and, well, I also always had more cards than he did. I think I resolved two AVisions per game (1 suspended + 1 cascaded).

Here's the list I used:

Creature (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells (22)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Fire // Ice
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Ancestral Vision

Lands (22)
2 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

The 4 Bloodbraids have been MVP all day. Powering through disruption and applying pressure is what Waterfalls is all about. The sideboard is very solid as well, perhaps Jace could be something a little more... specific. My main concern now is how many Wastelands and maindeck AD I can get away with without weakening the deck. I don't think I'll ever go below 2 of each but I should definitely keep trying different combinations. Wasteland is also great at denying tempo (AKA: ticking down AV) and it has great synergy with Deathrite. It is also the main land I want to be dropping when AVs start kicking in.

catmint

11-05-2012, 05:08 AM

The thing about Jace is that he always comes down when I am already winning. I find it difficult to "get back" into a game if I draw a Jace, but I find it rather common with BBE. I have moved him to the SB

I find the deck can have a rather slow start where you try to establish your manabase and deny your opponent's creatures but when it kicks in, it comes down hard. I believe BBE is the most cost-effective card in the deck because it is a superbe aggressive/tempo/CA play. If you are already on top of the game, BBE will bury your opponent deeper, while if your opponent is on top of you, you have a better shot at turning things around than if you had, say, a Jace.

I don't agree to this. In case you have a slow start against a fair deck and you deal with the opponents creatures - things are going well - then if you play a bloodbraid elf you might win cascading into something good or just racing the opponent, but you could also loose if cascade into a low-impact card and the opponent stabalises. But if things are going well and you play a Jace you "surely" win. My point is that there is a huge difference in win% playing a BBE or a Jace on an empty board (BBE beeing a bit swingy depending on matchup & cascade target). So your argument "if you ahead you don't need jace" is not valid imo.

The argument that "Jace does not get you back whereas BBE does" is also not understandable for me. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.
I bring up some scenarios:

Against Maverick if we are behind with creatures on board (them having some large creatures):
-> Jace does close to nothing
-> BBE might do nothing or get us back into the game by drawing 3 with a bunch of removal.

Against Maverick if the board is stalled:
-> Jace: likely win the game providing card advantage, setting up cascades + bounce (btw.: Jaces bounce has never been so powerful as in waterfalls!)
-> BBE: might be enough to smarm - or wont do anything to help with the stall

Against Miracles Round 5+ empty board:
-> Jace: good chances to win from there!
-> BBE (swingy) cascade into creature -> make some damage -> loose to entreat or Terminus. If cascade into Visions: good chance of winning.

Against Stoneforge: Batterskull on board (still happens)
-> Jace: Handles tokens quite easily.
-> BBE: Might get it done by drawing burn trading 2:1 for the batterskull token and winning with the swarm.

Against Moat, Humility, Elephant Grass, RIP/Energy Field combo, antyhing that handles attacking/creatures for good
-> BBE: probably not a lot
-> Jace: good chance of alternative win or drawing into outs.

Against Canadian:
Both spells are pretty bad at 4 mana - only good if we are stable. BBE beeing probably a bit better in average.

Against Veteran Explorer: I like my chances with Jace much more!

My point is:
Both cards (BBE & Jace) are extremly powerful & impactful (which they should be at 4 mana) providing wins when you are ahead and getting you back into the game when you are behind, but they do it in different ways providing different angles of attacks. Especially important is making it very hard for the player to handle you. Qweerios, I am 100% sure that your experiences of "more frequently getting back into the game with BBE" are in no way representative in a mathematical sense, but are a product of matchups/variance/perception. If analysed and really thoroughly tested by a group of people in different matchups playing hundrets of games, Jace will get his slot.

Now I have to give you that other card choices affect the decisions as well: If you play 2 Jitte, surely you want more creatures to carry the equipment and if you go into black for abrupt decay and discard jaces bounce and alternative win are less important. However, I am pretty convinced that a jace version is the better deck overall.

Qweerios

11-06-2012, 11:22 PM

I am fairly certain that I derive my conclusions on card choices based on thorough testing and theory crafting, not on vague observations and personal bias. So far, the list is performing satisfactorily. Including a single Jace in the main is my current dilemma. So far, the card I am most likely to cut for it is the 4th Fire//Ice or 4th AVision.

Also, I tied for first place at a local event today. It went as follow:

2-0 vs. Aggro Loam
2-0 vs. Lands
2-1 vs. OmniShow
2-0 vs. Spanish Inquisition

Cabal Therapy is a great tool against combo/control in general but I think Duress might just be better. I know how good Therapy can be (I play Nic Fit for almost a year now) but as far as opening a match with a piece of disruption against combo, Therapy is very sluggish. It is awesome to cascade into or to dump a Deathrite for a Therapy but I can't help but feel like this line of play is too slow for what we want this type of disruption for.

EpicLevelCommoner

11-07-2012, 12:36 AM

As much as I disagree with Qweerios on a lot of things (namely Brainstorm in BUG Fit and Tempo v Midrange Waterfalls), I have to say he's right on this one.

Not that JMS isn't devastating in his own right on a clear board, but how, in RUG, would we be able to consistently keep them off of their bigger threats like Goyf, KotR, Planeswalkers, Mongoose, etc?

Kich867

11-07-2012, 12:51 AM

I don't see the atrocity of not running Jace. Legacy players tend to get into a tunnel vision system where the first step is to cram all the best cards of each color into a deck first and ask if they're even worth it later. From my experience in keeping up with the Nic Fit thread, Qweerios wins all things he enters like a boss and is generally correct when it comes to deck building. I'd trust him if he told me not to run something.

catmint

11-07-2012, 05:31 AM

Congrats to your finish Qweerios!

I cannot know if you make your decisions based on theorycrafting and a lot of testing (no attack – I really don’t know). You do not really share a lot of reasoning/results and the reasoning that you did share was not 100% conclusive for me. As you can see in my post I outlined a lot of thoughts and brought some specific matchup/situational analysis concluding that Jace is a good choice. Maybe you can explain the flaws in my logic or where you came to different conclusions more specifically. I understand that you don’t need to do that so often because you have personal fans like Kich, who take everything you say for granted. :tongue:

@Kich: Jace was not just “thrown in”. This deck was developed and tested by a number of people. Things are always moving and changing especially with a new archetype. If we would just believe what someone says who is “generally right when it comes to deck design”, we might still be playing with Illusory Angel (see Qweerios first version of the deck). Not saying that Qweerios is not a good deck designer, but I am sure he also appreciates the development process that the community contributed.

As much as I disagree with Qweerios on a lot of things (namely Brainstorm in BUG Fit and Tempo v Midrange Waterfalls), I have to say he's right on this one.

Not that JMS isn't devastating in his own right on a clear board, but how, in RUG, would we be able to consistently keep them off of their bigger threats like Goyf, KotR, Planeswalkers, Mongoose, etc?

I don’t understand what you mean? What Jace does to help with those threats that Waterfalls has a Problem with? Don’t get it – how does not running Jace help with those creatures? First: They are less of a problem due to our manadorks. Hierarch exhalts making our own Goyfs bigger than theirs and Deathrite clears opponents lands to keep Knight smaller. Either way if you bounce once with Jace making one free attack. Then they play their creature again but ou can then either bounce again and kill them or brainstorm into removal (maybe 2 for 1 yourself with an attack + burn spell) or more threats for a swarm. You can surely find a way to win the game against decks running goyf, Kotr,.. if your Jace lives for a couple of turns (Hint Jace is also king setting up cascades).

Also why do you think Qweerios is right in cutting Jace? Are you also a personal fan like Kich or do you have any thoughts, conclusions that contribute to the debate? :wink:

Closing statement:
You guys don’t need to convince me and I also don’t need the confirmation that I am right or anything. Let’s keep an open mind and test different approaches so the archetype can grow. Jace or no Jace is by far a less significant decision than hierarch vs. deathrite, 4th color , wasteland or no wasteland,…

rancOr_

11-07-2012, 07:00 AM

I would never cut Jace in this deck, its the perfect fit for the card. U play all the removal/creatures to protect him and the lands to play him. Can even play him a turn earlier with the hierarch/deathrite.
I can understand the innovation, but there's really no need to discuss not playing broken cards.. I've played this kind of deck quite alot in the past and Jace ALWAYS seals the deal.
That being said, 2 is prolly the correct number.

EpicLevelCommoner

11-07-2012, 10:37 AM

Congrats to your finish Qweerios!

I cannot know if you make your decisions based on theorycrafting and a lot of testing (no attack – I really don’t know). You do not really share a lot of reasoning/results and the reasoning that you did share was not 100% conclusive for me. As you can see in my post I outlined a lot of thoughts and brought some specific matchup/situational analysis concluding that Jace is a good choice. Maybe you can explain the flaws in my logic or where you came to different conclusions more specifically. I understand that you don’t need to do that so often because you have personal fans like Kich, who take everything you say for granted. :tongue:

@Kich: Jace was not just “thrown in”. This deck was developed and tested by a number of people. Things are always moving and changing especially with a new archetype. If we would just believe what someone says who is “generally right when it comes to deck design”, we might still be playing with Illusory Angel (see Qweerios first version of the deck). Not saying that Qweerios is not a good deck designer, but I am sure he also appreciates the development process that the community contributed.

I don’t understand what you mean? What Jace does to help with those threats that Waterfalls has a Problem with? Don’t get it – how does not running Jace help with those creatures? First: They are less of a problem due to our manadorks. Hierarch exhalts making our own Goyfs bigger than theirs and Deathrite clears opponents lands to keep Knight smaller. Either way if you bounce once with Jace making one free attack. Then they play their creature again but ou can then either bounce again and kill them or brainstorm into removal (maybe 2 for 1 yourself with an attack + burn spell) or more threats for a swarm. You can surely find a way to win the game against decks running goyf, Kotr,.. if your Jace lives for a couple of turns (Hint Jace is also king setting up cascades).

Also why do you think Qweerios is right in cutting Jace? Are you also a personal fan like Kich or do you have any thoughts, conclusions that contribute to the debate? :wink:

Closing statement:
You guys don’t need to convince me and I also don’t need the confirmation that I am right or anything. Let’s keep an open mind and test different approaches so the archetype can grow. Jace or no Jace is by far a less significant decision than hierarch vs. deathrite, 4th color , wasteland or no wasteland,…

What I mean is that Jace is good on an empty board: genius even. But in the weakest colors for removal (I.e. no swords or decay) we can't always have answers to fatties swarms other walkers like Elspeth or Sorin or even CounterTop strategies (reveal Jace to counter Jace), especially since we can't be as counter heavy as Delver decks due to cascade fizzle.

Edit: Now that I think bout it a fourth color could enable the use of Jace.

Edit2: Really Kindle spellchecker? It's "color" not ****ing "Colorado"!

Greenpoe

11-08-2012, 09:31 AM

What I mean is that Jace is good on an empty board: genius even. But in the weakest colors for removal (I.e. no swords or decay) we can't always have answers to fatties swarms other walkers like Elspeth or Sorin or even CounterTop strategies (reveal Jace to counter Jace), especially since we can't be as counter heavy as Delver decks due to cascade fizzle.

Edit: Now that I think bout it a fourth color could enable the use of Jace.

Edit2: Really Kindle spellchecker? It's "color" not ****ing "Colorado"!

It's probably terrible, but you could just go nuts and go for 4 City of Brass, 4 Birds of Paradise and get the best of all worlds. Add in Stoneforge/Jitte/Batterskull & some Cabal Therapies and whatever else you can get from splashing every color and see what happens.

Qweerios

11-08-2012, 04:53 PM

This may sound crazy but now that I play with deathrite, 20 colored lands and a couple decays, my manabase has been more stable than when I splashed white for SB options only and played Hierarch. Deathrite brings so much disruption, reach, and can actually add red mana! When you pack 4 deathrites, 2 oozes, and 2 or 3 decays, goyfs and knights are a joke.

Also, I will explain my reasoning behind the rejection of a second jace when I get home.

catmint

11-09-2012, 07:48 PM

So I tried out a build with black and I have to agree with Qweerios that it is overall a much better build. I have to be careful about my excitement because my usual quick testing is just ~15 random matches on mws and there are soo many bad players and/or games are not taken seriously on the other side.

However how it played out was very nice. I played with shaman already a lot in BUG and learned to appreciate him. Didn't miss Exhalted as much as expected and 2 to the face make also for some damage. :laugh:

Concrning the mabase I went a much more conservative route. If a deck can play so many powerfuls spells one should make sure you should be able to cast them. Shaman making red is awsome, but you still need to make the land drops to win consistantly I feel.

So my changes:

1) Cutting basics: Sure there are the obvious downsides against dedicated non-basic hate/recusions but there will be way to many awkward situations with black duals in G1 and especially post board where you want to bring play 4 abrupt decay against the best stifle/wasteland deck in the format. You might argue cutting basics weakens the manbase but I don't think that's completely true. If you go for basics you might not be able to play optimally in the process of doing so (screwing yourself) and then your first dual will be wasted for sure hurting you just as much as an early waste. Sure there will be also the situations where you just want this 2 lands in play, but in this deck I think the factor not beeing able to have all the colors early hurts much more. i.e: having 3 basics casting a goyf leaving either red or blue for brainstorm or bolt open instead of leaving a volcanic open. It reminds me of NO RUG where people also tried basics but it just played out much better with duals.

2) cutting basics you need to play "through" wastelands instead of "around them". Obviously just my personal stupid wording :wink:, but what I mean with that is upping the land count - making sure you don't miss land drops. I did this a lot with the non-basic BUG control running Hmyn to tourach back in the days.

3) cutting wastelands Not having wastelands you miss out on the opportunity to randomly win with a screw, but often when I won like this I could also just have made my landdrops and cast unfair stuff. So I agree with TKdodo that in a midrange/ramp deck like this you don't necessarily need/want to waste the opponent. The situations where killing the opponents maze of it, academy ruins, Karakas or whatever will surely come, but the deck is equiped to win despite the utilitiy these lands provide to the opponent.

So I started testing with 23 colorful lands (duals & fetches) & 4 deathrite shaman. I still expect to get screwed against RUG sometimes, but in general I feel this is a configuration you make sure to play your 3 & 4 drops when they still matter. Also going late with shaman and drawing a lot of cards there is always something to do with the lands I feel.

3) Not having wasteland, I increased the fetchland count to make deathrite really work.

Current configuration
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta

Maybe I went over the top with this and it can be 22 lands with 2 Ponder, but I am pretty convinced making sure you cast all this super sweet spells should be priority #1.

Other experiences about black:

My biggest concerns with Waterfalls were:
- Loosings to RUG Daze & Spell Pierce casting removal on their threats / dealing with Goyf: (adressed by Decay)
- Loosing to combo (adressed by discard)
- Loosing to counterbalance (adressed by decay and discard)

So the SB I tested
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Envelop (over discard spot 7-8; Still nuts vs. combo but also supergood against miracles)
4 Abrupt decay (can see runnin 1-2 maindeck like qweerios)
3 Surgical Extraion

I also cut down to 2 Vendilion Clique maindeck. It was indeed awkward at times having multiples but especially clunky with all the other 8 3-4 cmc cards. With black combo is also much less of a concern.

kiblast

11-10-2012, 08:10 AM

Guys if you are splashing black for 3 Decays md (which is worth it imho) why don't you play Tourach as well? I'm not running Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize because obviously they are bad cascade flips, but flipping a Hymn anytime from turn 2 to 4 seems gamebreaking.

catmint

11-10-2012, 01:13 PM

You would also have to cast Tourach from time to time and since you need UU, R, G requiring BB seems like a stretch. :eyebrow:

kiblast

11-10-2012, 01:44 PM

I know, but playing a 8 duals / 9-10 fetchlands / 3-4 City of Brass manabase you should be able to caste everything. And anyway if you have Tourach in your starting 7 then you fetch for B, otherwise you just cascade into it.

catmint

11-10-2012, 06:02 PM

In my testing games were to long for my taste to play city of brass. I feel early fetching for Underground sea & Bayou for hymn can easily screw you. However I don't feel that there is something missing in the deck or that Hymn would make it so much stronger. Would also not know what to cut - threats, removal,...?

...but if you test it out I look forward to the results.

kingtk3

11-12-2012, 05:47 AM

I've been too busy lately to play magic or post replies, but I would like to add my thoughts on the Jace discussion: it depends on how you like to play the deck.
I prefer to play the RUG version aggressively so I prefer goyf over ooze, a full set of bolts and fire/ice and 2 jitte: these cards take the spot of jace and are preferred to the latter because they improve the focus of the deck. Jace does it's best against Miracle which it's quite easy with this configuration.
In a more controllish RUG shell (like with oozes and Library) I can see that jace could easily replace Jitte.

These are just my two cents.

@Catmint: how looks your RUGb main with the side you posted? I'm very interested in trying deathrite, since many times exalted doesn't trigger, but I would like keep plaing the aggro-midrange more the control route and I'm quite interested in your list.

Qweerios

11-12-2012, 11:25 AM

I don't play Jace in RUG Cascade for the same reasons that RUG doesn't play Jace either or that Merfolk doesn't play Brainstorm. The strategy is fairly linear and the cards contained in the deck are redundant. I found RUG Cascade to be extremely abusive at exploiting the small window of the midgame (AKA: reaching 4 mana) and throwing your opponent off balance at that point with constant pressure. During most of my matches, I usually end up going through aproximately 15 more cards than my opponent (20-35 of my library). When you compare BBE to Jace it is quite obvious that Jace becomes exponentially better the longer he stays in play but it is also true that BBE grant the most immediate form of CA while also applying pressure. This may sound unconceivable by legacy's standards but, playing Jace instead of BBE often gives your opponent a chance to catch his breath. The brainstorm effect is neat but much less welcomed on T4 when you're tapped out than say, on T2 combined with another piece of interaction and a set up cascade on T3.

Now, by no means does this line of thought invalidate Jace in this deck, it simply means that it shouldn't compete with BBE for deck slots.

catmint

11-12-2012, 05:06 PM

Interesting thought. I feel the deck not be linear. THe deck has a lot of different strengths supporting a lot of different routes on the aggro-control spectrum.
- "aggro + burn to the face"
- supergood long game with a lot of card advantage: Visions & Jace.
- very strong board control (black also opens up maelstrom pulse or diabolic edict if necessary)
- minimum stack control
- strong hand control (sideboard & clique)
- deathrite provides maindeck graveyard hate, "lavamancer" vs. peacekeeper stuff + a little lifegain.
- jace as alternative wincon

With all this variety I don't feel we have to "exploit a turn 4 window" of the metagame or that we have to consider constraints like burn or Merfolk. Black offers a lot more options going more controllish, while not sacrificing a lot of reach if all due to deathrite. Also there are not a lot of decks who will just crush us if the game goes long (surely not the big 3). Only one i can think of is Turbo Eldrazi but against NIC fit (harder without basics) or "UB plainswalkerramp" we put up a good fight even if the game goes a little longer.

I go a more conservative route concerning my lands and my curve so for me unfortunately BBE competes with Jace.

___
my list kingt3 (the one I played back then had -2 Abrupt decay +2 Fire/Ice, -1 Ponder +1 Wooded Foothills)
I think 22 lands, 2 Ponder and 4 deathrite are enough and the abrupt decay maindeck have been pretty good so far.

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Bayou
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills

4 deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Shardless Agent
2 Bloodbraid Elf

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ancestral Visions

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
2 Abrupt Decay

wcm8

11-13-2012, 09:19 AM

I've been loving this deck recently.

I don't think Jace is entirely necessary, and I'm currently testing a build than runs 0 in the 75.

I am curious where you guys are at in terms of sideboard. Right now I'm running the following:

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Gilded Drake (Is there anything better for Show and Tell? Maybe Karakas? Maybe just go for 4 Duress?)
3 Engineered Plague (even with all the CA, Goblins is still a rough matchup. And it makes Elves laughable. There might be better options, but I haven't been disappointed.)
1 Abrupt Decay (3 in the main)
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage

I feel like this is a pretty good mixture to help against a variety of decks. I thought Counterbalance was good in BUG Shardless, but that deck already had some number of SDT and I don't think I can afford the sideboard space to fit it in the 4-color deck. Any thoughts?

catmint

11-13-2012, 10:28 AM

I would not run narrow stuff like gilded drake - it is not necessary if you have a lot of discard. But if you want to specifically hate out Show&Tell it is not the best option since drake does not stop omniscience. Oblivion Ring is better hate for that matchup. Also cabal therapy is very strong. Imagine you cascade into it and then can sac the 2/2 if you don't need it...Would surely play it over duress and gilded drake.

my configuration against combo is 3 thoughtseize, 3 cabal therpay, 2 Envelop (Miracles...)

Is loam good enough if you run a lot of shamans?

My testing against Goblins was ok: discard is supergood (!) and the unfair stuff like vial and lakey can be stopped consinstantly. In the current meta Plague is too narrow for me.

.Ix

11-13-2012, 11:28 AM

How about Pyrokinesis for the sideboard? With 4 Fire/Ice, 4 BBE, and 4 Lightning Bolt it shouldn't be too hard to play. The cool thing is it's usually a fair 2-for-2 for zero mana. Seems good to me. Contagion could also work for those builds with Abrupt Decay and lots of discard.

Qweerios

11-14-2012, 12:33 PM

My last tournament didn't go so well. I was testing 2 Jaces main and less Fire // Ice but I think the changes had little to do with the performance. Here are the list and results:

Creature (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells (22)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Fire // Ice
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
2 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Fire // Ice
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize

R1: 2-1 vs. Canadian Thresh

G1: I lost to Stifle, Waste + Mongoose and Goyf pressure after my T1 deathrite was bolted. I died the turn my T2 AV resolved holding 2 BBE and a Jace on 3 lands.

-4 FoW, -2 Jace, +2 AD, +2 Nihil, +2 Fire // Ice

G2: I stabilize at 1 life with a Ooze in play facing a Goyf. My opponent fails to find a bolt for 3 turns and I go up to 5 life and win.

G3: I open with an AV then we have a disruption derby involving Bolts on threats, Stifles on fetches, Submerges, Brainstorms, and Wastelands for the first 2 turns so my opponent doesn't land a threat before T3 (2 Delvers that flip the following turn). A deathrite goes unchecked and an AV resolves. I won with 3 consecutive Bloodbraids after having bolted and decayed the delvers, I am at 8 life.

R2: 2-1 vs. BW Pox

G1: I keep a 3 FoW hand with a Clique which gets IoK/Therapy away. My T2 Deathrite eats a Smallpox and I am out of it. Bloodghasts beats me to death

-4 FoW, -2 Jace, +2 EPlaque, +2 Nihil, +2 Fire // Ice

G2: I open with AV and follow with 2 Deathrites. I set up an AV with eot BS and main Shardless on the turn b4 AV resolved. I buried my opponent in Bloodbraids and Shardless

G3: I suspend another AV on T1 (best play vs pox decks). I hit an EoT Clique taking away his Smallpox shortly after and play an EPlaque on Spirit getting rid of his Lingering Souls token and Bloodghast. I beat him down with a Shardless and a Clique until he plays a Tombstalker which I tap with Fire // Ice then swing + bolt for lethal (I was holding 5+ cards at that point too).

R3: 0-2 vs. UW Helm/RiP combo

G1: I keep a hand with a FoW and a Clique when my opponent mulled to 5. I Forced his T1 Top. He played another Top on the next turn and StP my Clique. I flooded to 9 lands for the next turns until he Jaced me out of the game

-4 Bolt, -4 Deathrite, -2 Ooze +4 Thoughtseize, +3 Duress, +2 AD, +1 Fire // Ice

G2: I keep a 2 TS hand with a FoW and a Shardless. My opponent opens with Leyline of Sanctity (he knew because I beat him in the finals two week prior using 4 Therapy and 4 TS for G2), StP my Shardless that cascaded into a TS, then I proceed to flood to 8 lands while my opponent Jaces me again.

R4: 0-2 vs. Aggro Loam

G1: I open with a Deathrite and choose to Shardless into Ooze on T2 after my opponent had a Mox/Wasteland/LftL T1 and a 1/1 Terravore on T2. I should have bolted the Terravore when I could because as I passed the turn my opponent dredged Loam back, wasted my land, played a Seismic Assault and shocked my board away before swinging with a 5/5 trampler. I lost it from there

-4 FoW, +2 Nihil, +2 AD

G2: I kept a 1 Udg Sea1, 1 Wasteland hand with a Shardless, a Deathrite, and a Brainstorm to my opponent's 3 Wasteland, 1 red cycle, 1 bolt, crusher hand. I T1 Deathrite while my opponent plays a tapped land. I Waste his land on T2. He plays a Mox Diamond and wastes my UDG Sea + Bolt my Deathrite. I BS in response and see no lands. My opponent plays a Crusher with another Wasteland so I concede.

I was metagamed hard on R3 and godhanded in R4 so I didn't conclude much from the Jace testing except for R1 where 4 CMC spells crowded my hand at one point. I was glad to see that the deck still performed well with less Fire // Ice. The card isn't as central as I thought, it is simply never bad. Decay is a card I want a 3rd of in the main, and KGrip is something I will reinclude in my SB for Leyline, Batterskull, and SDT. As for Jace in general, I don't really want to see his face unless I am playing a very grindy game against a control deck. My creatures aren't good blockers and when I lose a match, it's not becaus I ran out of fuel but because I didn't make it to the point where I got to cast BBE. I am definitely getting rid of the 2nd Jace and will probably cut the 1st one as well or move it to the SB in favor of additional Decays, Fire // Ice, and/or Wasteland.

Here is my current SB

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize

wcm8

11-14-2012, 12:54 PM

One thing that may help the deck is adding Tarmogoyf. I know that this is such a cliche suggestion, but against the majority of decks the added pressure and wall is useful. Late game ooze is definitely better, but the card is pretty mediocre/bad earlier on. Even against decks that aggressively attack your life total like burn, I'd much rather have a turn 2 Goyf.

My creature base suggestion:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 D. Shaman
4 S. Agent
3 BBE
1 V. Clique

This brings the curve down somewhat as well. More Cliques can be in the SB if needed.

Also, one suggestion I have for the SB: Counterflux. Keep in the 4 thoughtseize SB, but then bring 3 of these additionally to combat combo and certain control decks. To prevent cascading into it you can even consider dropping the BBEs. Counterflux can be sandbagged for their big combo turn play, and this deck should be able to ramp to 3 in time to stop it. It doesn't matter how many counterspells they're holding since this stops the bomb dead.

catmint

11-14-2012, 05:17 PM

Your loss against RUG shows where the deck can be hurt -> not developing the mana.
In my testing with 22 lands 2 Ponder I was screwed a couple of times so altough it might be variance I'll go back to 23 lands 1 Ponder. :) If I flood out like you I'll surely go down again :)

I also play 3 Goyf maindeck and a lower curve (only 4 cmc4 spells maindeck). Goyf are better in the canadian matchup as I already pointed out.

Instead of Krosan Grip I included Maelstrom pulse as a catch all. Better aginst planeswalkers and 4/4 angel tokens.

MrShine

11-15-2012, 12:19 AM

Count me as someone else who's wondering about Tarmogoyf (or the lack thereof) in the deck... Is it just because of space concerns that you aren't running him Qweerios? I get that he's generally outclassed these days as a creature but sometimes he just does what a Tarmo does best - sit there and be huge (and thus stopping aggressive openers). Are you leaning on Fire // Ice and Bolt (and now I guess Abrupt Decay) to make it through the early game?

I'm also curious as to your thoughts on Sylvan Library... Seems perfect considering what the deck wants to do, but it is true that Ancestral Vision plays the Card Advantage game pretty well for us already. Still, free top manipulation every turn turns late cascade top decks into more reliable bombs... Maybe some in the SB vs Control / other slower decks?

Qweerios

11-15-2012, 03:54 PM

Goyf and Sylvan have been tested before. Goyf is an eternal let-down for me in Legacy. I have acquired and sold 3 playsets over the years and have never once been satisfied by the card. I can only see it being good in RUG, Zoo, or other decks where size is all that matters. I don't have the deck space for Goyf as it is now or he would be my next inclusion. All the other cards in the deck are superior to Goyf.

Library is fine. The card works well with the rest of the deck, and I would go as far as to say that it might even be better than Jace. No more than a singleton however.

To answer your question, yes, I do rely on Fire//Ice, Bolt, Decay, and Shaman to get past the early game, stall for suspended visions, and hose swarm strategies. I prefer cascading into Fire // Ice rather than Goyf because it allows me to disrupt my opponent and go through my library faster in order readily find my beaters of choice (Ooze, Clique, and BBE). I don't have any issues against bigger creatures because I have 4 Deathrites, 2 Ooze, 2 Decays, 4 Fire//Ice, and a bunch of card advantage to consistently hose opposing Goyfs, KotRs, and Terravores. I also preffer Fire Ice to Goyf in the RUG matchup because the matchup revolves around building a manabase through Delver beats. Mongoose and Goyf are small fry compared to Stifle, Waste, Delver, and the rest of the RUG Tempo disruption suite. My goal in the RUG MU is to be the control deck, not to try and be the aggressor because that's a losing plan to begin with...

wcm8

11-15-2012, 05:23 PM

Goyf answers Goyf and Mongoose (or at least forces them to expend burn as well). In the RUG matchup its not so much for making you race, but providing a wall while you amass card advantage. Goyf is literally the single most important card in the RUG mirror and the matchup often depends on who can resolve more of them. With abrupt decay, this matchup swings further in our favor.

Being a 4/5+ early on is still amazing though. It can help lead to wins out of nowhere when you cascade a BBE into burn after a couple swings with Goyf.

It's funny that you have the reverse view on creatures. I have nearly always been dissapointed with Scavenging Ooze, especially as an early Cascade target.

Jabari

11-16-2012, 04:07 AM

So I've read through the forum and from the looks of it Qweerios has tested the most and appears to be working from the most updated list. As a result, this suggestion is directed towards Qweerios for potential testing.

There has been a lot of discussion over Goyf or no Goyf. The argument simply stated is "the deck needs stronger threats, but a vanilla beater lacks utility."

My suggestion while it is more mana intensive and can't be cascaded into by Shardless like Goyf, does have potential.

Animar, Soul of Elements

Let it sink in a little bit...

Pro black and white means it won't be removed easily. He makes BBE and Shardless cheaper allowing for less stress on the mana base. Plus the cascade mechanic allows for it to potentially grow big very fast.

I'd start off just testing 1 to see if you like it, I wouldn't play more than 2 if it ends up being good thanks to the legend drawback.

wcm8

11-16-2012, 11:21 AM

Animar is one of those cards that's a solution in search of a problem. His restrictive mana cost makes it unlikely that he'd resolve early enough to matter, and he doesn't have a meaningful immediate impact on the board -- he really seems to be 'win-more'.

Goyfs have improved the deck for me significantly. Being huge is relevant in a ton of matchups. This deck generally really starts to operate on turns 3 or 4, so having a solid turn 2 play strengthens the deck a ton. Against a lot of the popular decks in the format, he is better than Ooze. With your own Shardless Agents dying at some point, he is likely to be landing as a 5/6 or bigger in a lot of games. The size will also help in your combo matchups, since the small window of opportunity to race provided by Discard will close pretty quickly.

As previously suggested:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Vendilion Clique

Also, I really like Sylvan Library as a singleton. It will help you manipulate your cascades, or aggressively draw more cards against control or combo decks. And if it does get countered/removes, +1/+1 for your Goyfs.

Qweerios

11-16-2012, 01:44 PM

The way I see Goyf in the RUG matchup is as follows:

He is an added answer to Mongoose and Goyf but not to Delver. I usualy don't care for T1 Mongeese because they rarely get threshold before T3. Therefore, Goyf's main appeal in this matchup is to stall another Goyf. It is true that the mana cost is smoother than a Decay but in my experience, RUG doesn't race you with a Goyf because that means they have to tap out on T2, and that's what I want. Also, note that Goyf is just as vulnerable as any other stalling tactic in this matchup. The cards that currently replace Goyf all have more relevant applications. Fire // Ice will tap a goyf and cantrip or kill a Delver, which IMO, the latter is more important. Ooze, if given a turn, will turn the game dramaticaly in my favor by allowing me to gain life and hose Mongoose and Goyf at the same time. Yes, it is true that Goyf would make the RUG mu better, but this deck already has strong points that make the matchup 55/45 in our favor. I don't feel like lowering the amount of Fire // Ice, Ooze, and/or Cliques to include Goyfs for the RUG matchup is a wise decision.

Now for the second part of the argument against Goyf: It blows in every other matchup...

The point of a vanilla creature is that your strategy is the one that can abuse it the most in a given metagame. This is why RUG, Zoo, and questionably Rock can use Goyf effectively. Goyf is dead weight in decks like Maverick and Stoneblade because he doesn't bring anything valuable to the deck's strategy. For Waterfalls, Goyfs counterparts are Ooze and Clique, now think of all the applications of an Ooze and a Clique in a diverse meta versus multiple Goyfs. Here's what I think, Goyf is mindless and of poor value while Clique and Ooze will make my opponent twist and turn for answers.

wcm8

11-17-2012, 09:33 AM

Here's my counter-arguement: This deck is extremely weak to combo and a significant portion of the sideboard needs to be devoted towards beating that matchup if it wants to go long into a tournament. With Goyf, you won't need to devote as much/any room to the aggro matchups, and will be essentially 'pre-sideboarded' against a ton of decks like Goblins, Merfolk, RUG, Zoo, Burn, Affinity and even Maverick to an extent (aside from KotR or Ooze, Goyf outsizes everything they have).

If you are banking on beating a deck like Reanimator or Dredge game 1, you either KNEW that your opponent was on that strategy and mulliganed for it, or you lucked into an early Ooze with FoW. These are decks that I would lump into the combo area, and like Storm and Show and Tell, will need help from the SB to win.

The deck is constructed in such a way that it trumps common tempo, aggro and control matchups via card advantage. But it needs something to do with all that card advantage. A 4/5 or 5/6+ beatstick is great. It has a much more immediate impact on the board in the early game than Ooze, which is where this deck is the weakest. Ooze, to me, seems 'win-more' -- if you are making it to the point of the game where Ooze is gaining you tons of life and outsizing everything, you've likely already won.

Once I added 4 Goyfs to the deck, I found myself beating RUG much more consistently. And given that RUG is the #1 DTB right now, I'm not sure why a developing deck wouldn't want to use that fact to its advantage.

Qweerios

11-17-2012, 03:23 PM

I don't think Goyf is a serious consideration for the combo MU. It is true that it has a faster clock than Ooze and Clique but that's not how you beat combo. If you can keep the discard coming, taping their lands on upkeep, and stack up FoWs, there isn't much that they can do that an extra turn will fix. Their strength is in their speed and consistency, you can either keep them in check or you can't. I prefer having the option of disabling PiF or Cabal Ritual than having the extra 1-2 power to beat. Furthermore, I've personally never heard of a player thanking the heavens for a pair of Tarmogoyfs against a storm player...

Also, when considering Goyf over Ooze and stating that Ooze falls in the category of "win-more" cards, you have to keep in mind that those cards don't always come into play via taping out, that one of them will likely dominate any Legacy board established, that gaining life is valuable in some matchup, and that GY hate availlability isn't just limited to a single card in the deck. The fact that you are playing a cascade deck does not mean that you have the ultimate mid or late game because you are likely to have more fuel than your opponent, or that surviving a RUG assault is a primary concern. RUG is a strong deck and it is built in a way to have the best legacy disruption complementing the most efficient threats. With such a plan in mind, you have to accept that it will be a threat, in fact, any thought-out deck with a decent pilot will be a threat. I am contempt with having a shakier early game against the ultimate legacy tempo/disruption deck and knowing that I can have the edge if I make it past the storm. I don't want to ameliorate my odds against RUG by being more like it, rather I would interact against it. I didn't build Waterfalls with the intentions of beating RUG, I built the deck with the intentions of having a well-rounded, Legacy-competitive deck that can have a favorable matchup against a wide variety of the field through endless card advantage and the optimized randomization of the Cascade mechanic.

As I mentioned before, Goyf was part of my original list for a while and was tested with the best intentions. Unfortunately for Goyf, all that he represents is a size, a mana cost, therefore tempo and pressure. Once your opponent manages to negate any of these aspects through disruption, Goyf loses tremendous value. If I am facing a KotR, an active Mom, a huge Terravore, a Wastelock, a reckless burn deck, an attrition match involving Snapcasters and removal, or even the dumbest Goyf-off, Ooze breaks the board open and allows me to recuperate and force my opponent into submission. Pushing an Ooze out of Bolt range is about the scariest thing you can do to a RUG deck in G1.

wcm8

11-17-2012, 05:17 PM

I don't think Goyf is a serious consideration for the combo MU. It is true that it has a faster clock than Ooze and Clique but that's not how you beat combo. If you can keep the discard coming, taping their lands on upkeep, and stack up FoWs, there isn't much that they can do that an extra turn will fix. Their strength is in their speed and consistency, you can either keep them in check or you can't. I prefer having the option of disabling PiF or Cabal Ritual than having the extra 1-2 power to beat. Furthermore, I've personally never heard of a player thanking the heavens for a pair of Tarmogoyfs against a storm player...

You missed my entire point, which was that Goyf is good against NON-combo decks, therefore freeing up your sideboard space for additional cards against combo.

I've adjusted the SB thusly:

4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay

As you see, there are 9 spells that you can bring in against your typical combo deck. When you combine all this with the pressure provided by an early Tarmogoyf, combo decks aren't actually such a dismal proposition. I've tested favorably against Show and Tell and High Tide so far with this configuration.

The rest of your comments can go either way. I think you don't typically have the time OR mana to effectively grow an Ooze against a decent RUG player. If they are holding a bolt, your Ooze is 99% likely to die before he gets out of range to be effective. Goyfs of your own provide an early wall against opposing Goyfs and Mongeese, allowing you breathing time for the deck to work its magic. Same against other aggressive decks: tribal decks are typically too fast to afford the time to get a giant Ooze, and against all-in Burn you *need* a wall and clock faster than Ooze itself can provide.

I agree that Clique is good, but I'm not sure it can justify cutting into the 4 Goyf slots. I SUPPOSE if your meta has no RUG or tribal decks, your creature configuration is arguably better.

Of course, the other alternative is to run 3-4 Tarmogoyf along with 1-2 Ooze, but then we start cutting into other slots.

Plm

11-18-2012, 01:34 PM

Hi

I like the deck very much, and am testing it since I brought the planechase deck again.

Here is what I'm testing at the moment and my stance on goyf/ooze jace, basics or not and so.

First the list :

DRAW
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm

BURN
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice

THE FORCE IS WITH ME
4 Force of Will

CASCADE
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraid Elf

BEATERS
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf

ACCEL
4 Deathrite Shaman

MANABASE
2 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

SIDEBOARD
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Envelop

On my particulair choices :

No decay main, 4 colors manabase vs canadian infestation. In the canadian case, decay remove 2/3 of their threats, uncouterable but quite hard to cast (in the face of mana disruption) whereas goyf stop 2/3 of the threats, and is easier on the mana and a non situationnal cascade (but get hit by everything exept spellpierce).

No jace, I ain't playing a control deck; I started playing with him, set up cascade like a chef, but if I can resolve him, it's usually overkill (exept one time when legend rule saved my ass).

2 waste, 3 basics : I'm scared to go out without my basics, goblin run rampant around here, plus the all the canadians (coming on the old continent to play hockey). The wastelands, well maybe it's sentimental but I can't play 22 lands and no wasteland; It took manascrew to get me into reducing the numbers to 2.

Wooded foothills as the 9-10th fetches : I play basics, I like to be able to grab them, if I need blue have no blue lands in hand and only the wooded has fetch, I still can grab duals so it's cool(also my other blue fetch are playing elsewhere).

3 goyfs : they help to get to the midgame, where ooze became relevant, help in match up where you're agressed, but quite the pression on control, sucks vs combo but ooze, jace and decay also sucks, guess that's not an anti combo slots :smile: .

8 burns : get you to the midgame, close game, help your punny critters to trade vs the big guys (well not the very big guys, I knows)

Other than that, I love the deck, I always have gas ! And I get to hard cast force because I play lots of land (22 lands + 4 manadorks, that's serious mana).

catmint

11-19-2012, 09:45 AM

If you think you have a positive Canadian matchup with Waterfalls – test more (against good players). I am not sure yet on how to evaluate the matchup but it is surely not positive. In this matchup we are the midrange deck aka “setting up some good stuff and taking control”. Compared to the best midrange deck in the format maverick (which obv. has a good Canadian matchup) we have the following problems:

1) No mother -> their removal is in general good against us!
- their burn based removal is good: only creature burn cannot handle is Goyf (maybe ooze).
- Submerges/mind harness are very good against us generating a lot of tempo!

2) No "asymetric" effect like thalia hurting their gameplan significantly.

3) We have a muuuuch worse manabase:
- Maverick has a lot of basics – wastelands is good against us wheter we play 3 or 4 colors, basics or no basics – Wasteland will hurt us very regularly.
- Maverick has 100% more acceleration.
- Because RUG has to kill mother and thalia they often let hierarch/dryad arbor live, but you can be sure that deathrite will die asap.

4) Stifle -> bad against maverick, best card against us.

5) Daze, Spell Pierce: Mediocre to bad against Maverick -> Very good against cascade.

6) compared to Mavericks 3 Ooze, 4 knight and 4 GSZ we have very little monsters that say "stop" on the ground

So overall everything that makes Maverick strong against Canadian is something we dont have. Everything that makes a Terminus or heavy control deck like Nic-Fit deck strong against Canadian is also something we don't have. what do they have? "stable mana, tons of removal and a gemplan does not involve creatures on the board"

What we try to do aka "playing creatures & spells to generate unfair card advantage with a shaky manabase never every able to play around daze) plays directly into Canadian disruption suite like not many other decks play into it. Decay is the only thing that does not fit into this equation but it only trades 1:1, does not stop nimble and requires black mana.

Concerning the other matchups: The deck beats UW based and most other fair decks quite heavily and with the black sideboard I am not really worried about the combo matchup anymore - should be at least even which is a fair trade for edge over fair decks.

So at the moment waterfalls is a metagame deck for me if I expect a lot of UW but not a lot of Canadian. But unless I solve the "canadian problem" I likely won't bring it to a big tournament.

puckb

11-21-2012, 05:15 PM

Hi guys,

I am initially a Jund player. But as I was killing myself too often with bob, thoughtseize, fetches, and bitterblossom and as I think Bloodbraid Elf is awesome, this thread gave me the idea to splash blue for shardless agent.

My list is a bit different than what I see around here, so I want to share what I am playing by now.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze

3 Destructive Flow
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Lightning Bolt

1 Umezawa's Jitte

-- 21 lands --
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta

SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Duress / therapy
SB: 2 other

No FoW, I can't support it

Destructive flow is something I really like, it can break a leg to many opponents. But this has many implication obviously on the manabase. Shaman shines here, he synergize pretty well with the enchantment as well as with the fetches. I am considering removing Jitte or Ooze for a 1-of bird of paradise

I've seen it's quite a debate around here, but I'm not really happy with Ooze, he grows quite slowly. He is bad if he comes late or in multiples, I never happen to sink mana into him when I have a shaman around. Actually, he is shaman 5-6 , tarmogoyf 5-6 and jite 2-3. I'd like to fit a flyer or two in his place. Namely baleful strix or vendilion clique ( need to rework the mana base)
Actually, I think Baleful Strix might be good in the deck : it is flexible enough to be pretty good to cascade into. I don't think it has been evoked, but I think it deserve at least some tests

I'd like to be able to fit some fire/ice somewhere in the main

wcm8

11-26-2012, 08:29 AM

Well, I've come back around and renounce Goyf after more testing and adjustment to the deck.

Here's my current configuration:

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Dust Bowl
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga // Bayou (undecided.. leaning towards Bayou)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Fire // Ice

I found that Abrupt Decay is really the card we want to help against RUG. While Goyf is okay here, he becomes less useful in the sideboard games once they bring in Submerge. I also agree that he is mediocre against control matchups, whereas the additional Cliques are really fantastic (I cut the second Ooze for the third Clique -- a meta decision for me, either mix is probably fine. It also doesn't die to Perish, unlike everything else in the deck). Decay occasionally sucks when you cascade into it against an empty board, but it's utility has saved me many games that I would otherwise have lost. To make room, I cut down on the number of Fire//Ice, which hasn't been pulling its weight as much. But I can definitely see how this ratio can be adjusted.

I tested Sylvan Library, and while the card is certainly great, this deck doesn't really need it with all the card advantage already generated via your cascade creatures and Ancestral Visions. A nice effect of Cascading is that it often makes you flip through useless late-game lands and get to the good stuff.

I cut the 2 Wastelands. I think Dust Bowl achieves what they were doing, which is as a mid/late-game answer for annoying utility lands. Dust Bowl is arguably more powerful though since the effect is repeatable. I also like playing 1 of each basic and 10 fetches, since you will occasionally need stable access to a certain color source.

As for the sideboard, I'm currently settling on this:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip (or 1/1 split with Maelstrom Pulse)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

The discard is necessary to have a chance against combo. I tested Counterflux but found it to be too awkward to cast and forced you to hold mana open at inopportune times. I also bring in Surgical Extraction to occasionally screw up combo -- quite a few decks are packing Intuition, and if you can force them to discard their first Show and Tell or whatever combo piece, Surgical often seals the game.

Nihil Spellbomb (or Tormod's Crypt) are better for this deck as GY hate over Grafdigger's Cage since this deck can't really protect a Cage via counterspells. Crypt is actually probably better overall since against Dredge and Reanimator you want that additional speed and +1 card isn't really that important. On the other hand Spellbomb isn't embarrassing to bring in against RUG or Snapcaster/Lingering Souls.

Plague is amazing and comes in against a ton of decks. It is definitely not as narrow as you might think and is worth bringing in against any deck that has a lot of X/1 dudes or tokens.

Grip/Pulse are necessary against Stoneblade decks. A resolved Batterskull can become a huge headache for this deck if it doesn't find an answer in time. You might also need it if you face something dumb like Humility.

Thrun has been great against a variety of decks, including RUG. I think Jace could be okay, but I think you just want to kill your control opponent, not just trade Jace's back and forth.

.Ix

11-27-2012, 04:20 AM

I've found Pyrokinesis very important against Maverick, but I think Plague will give us similar value. I will stick to Pyro though because of all the Affinity I find in my area. I haven't tested Sylvan Library that much, but I have found it better than Jace as well, and it gives the deck one more thing to do on turn 2.

Has anyone tried 2-3 Hymn to Tourach? It seems like a good card to help us plow through opponents and disrupt combo, especially when you don't have to pay mana for it. It should be easy enough to get BB with 4 Shaman, 1 Bayou, 2 Sea, and 8-9 fetch. It's probably good in the board against combo, since you'll be fetching for B anyway and will be playing the creatures maybe turn 4, after playing all the disruption in hand.

.Ix

11-30-2012, 08:48 PM

Anyone still playing this deck? I tested a build without Abrupt Decay (I don't have them yet) against Merfolk and it did fairly well. I went -3 Decay for +3 Pyrokinesis. It can easily just blast through them in the early game, but our creatures are so small that Merfolk has a real chance of recovering before we get to beat them down to zero. I'm sure that with Decay, the matchup would have been easier, but I'm still concerned about our ability to deal damage quickly enough. Jitte was the MVP in this matchup, as I pretty much won the game whenever I resolved my singleton, and I'm convinced that the deck needs another one.

I've thought of playing Lingering Souls and Stoneforge Mystic as well for even more value out of our cascades, but that would mean losing black, Abrupt Decay, and using different cards against combo (maybe Angel of Despair/Aethersnipe vs Show and Tell and Teeg against Storm). The whole thing takes a LOT of slots, though. Dunno if it's worth it.

wcm8

12-01-2012, 12:59 AM

I think this deck really needs the black splash to be viable, and Abrupt Decay is part of that. It is important to have against Counterbalance and answers a variety of threats and utility cards. Black is also essential for the discard in the SB, without which the deck simply folds to combo.

In a lot of ways, Abrupt Decay functions as a pseudo-counterspell, since you'll generally cast it at end of turn and it answers a variety of problems, not just creatures. For example, against Merfolk and Goblins, decaying their early Aether Vial often buys you a ton of time to set up cascades and amass a bigger army.

.Ix

12-01-2012, 04:11 AM

I tried to make the white version work for a bit, but it just ended up really clunky even against a goldfish.

re: Decay, I'd play them in the main if I had them, really. No objections to that card. It's obviously one of the best spells ever.

wcm8

12-03-2012, 10:10 AM

Slight change to the deck: -1 Fire//Ice, +1 Sylvan Library. I've gone back to thinking that this card is just the stone nuts against a ton of strategies, and its value as a singleton warrants its inclusion. It also helps with setting up cascades. Against combo and slow control decks, paying tons of life to draw a bunch of cards rocks.

Another card I'd like to add back to the sideboard: Karakas. There are a few reasons: for one, it is amazing against any deck that is trying to cheat in a big monstrous fatty into play, which are otherwise difficult for this deck to answer. It is also useful against decks with infinite removal thanks to its interaction with Vendilion Clique. Not only will you get a semi-immortal threat, but you can also use it for repeatable disruption and/or card cycling. This land might even be strong enough to consider for the maindeck.

capitacom

12-04-2012, 06:29 PM

I would like to second Baleful Strix as an option - its a better cascade than clique against non-combo decks, functions as removal, costs a mana less which means you can cascade into it from shardless agent and just generates insane advantage. If we're splashing black anyway it isn't so bad on the mana, and doesn't require UU. Has anyone tested it so far. I think it functions very similarly to goyf (although it can be bolted) in the matchups you want goyf.

.Ix

12-05-2012, 03:10 AM

emodi

12-13-2012, 07:36 PM

Hey guys still new to the source but i been following your thread from the beginning and i know deathright shamen is amazing but i think the splash black is not the way to go i found that rug colors is fitting just fine :D i mean lighting bolt works great in any cascade as well as gofy. they both just work. many times the burn can get you their against almost any deck so long as you can stay in the game. Deathright does ping every turn and ramps but red with a side board gives us many hard counters. but i'm a believer in running more basics so the enemy's wasteland is more dead.

this is my list

creatures.
4 bloodbraid elfs
3 snapcasters
4 shardless agents
4 gofys
2 deathright <----using it for life gain and ramp

spells

4 lighting bolts
4 ancestral visions
4 brainstorms
4 force of wills
2 ponders

planeswalkers

2 Jace the mind sculptor

land

4 scalding tarn
4 wasteland
3 volcanics
3 tropicals
2 misty rain forest
2 mountains
3 forest
2 islands

Side board

3 red blast
3 smash to smithereens
2 detention spheres<-------used in show and tell/ hive mind combo decks. i mean we get a free cast if cascaded into it also putting it off a show and tell is great also it has awesome so it works.
2 torments grypt
2 krosen grip
2 reverberate
1 surgical extraction

so far the list has done well against many decks that i have tested online along with taking it to las vegas this past weekend and just playing against other players. i didnt take as the deck i played but after each match i asked my opponent if he would like to play against another deck. in many cases the deck played very well. i think the deck is a contender since rug delver is falling out of favor.

wcm8

01-07-2013, 11:01 AM

The cat is out of the bag, and kinda has been for awhile. Both Deathrite Shaman and Bloodbraid Elf are fantastic Legacy cards, and Shardless Agent into Ancestral Visions is a legitimate strategy when the format revolves around midrange value decks.

I think RUGB Cascade can be the 'Next Level' value deck that beats on a midrange-focused format, because you're playing double the amount of Cascade critters and have the possibility to play the best cards from 4 colors instead of just three.

To push the deck forward, I think we need to slay a few sacred cows:
-Force of Will isn't the card to be playing right now, certainly as a 4-of. I think the format will naturally sway into combo's favor as people are momentarily obsessed with casting 3 and 4 mana midrange-cards, but for now I think this isn't a necessity.
-Since FoW isn't needed, Vendilion Clique and other middling blue-cards aren't really needed to keep the blue count up either. I still love Clique, but I'm not sure the deck needs it at the moment.

There are a few cards that deserve consideration:
-Grim Lavamancer will help win the Deathrite Shaman war. It's also another body that can soak up a Liliana activation and perhaps even finish her off as well. It's also pretty frickin' good when people are playing combo Elves or Goblins.
-Maelstrom Pulse kills just about everything that Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt don't. It's a one-card swiss army knife against Esper -- takes out tokens, equipment, and planeswalkers.
-Boom // Bust, moreso as a sideboard strategy to put the nail in the coffin against control decks. You can cascade into Bust once you have a board advantage, but even early game Boom's can slow them down. It's also great against High Tide if you can resolve it. I'm actually not playing it currently, but it's a card to keep on the back burner.

Proposed list 01/07/13:

23 Lands
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach (questionable.. BB can be tough to hit -- perhaps Baleful Strix and/or Scavenging Ooze instead)
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4 Thoughtseize
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Engineered Plague
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Pithing Needle

We are essentially already the best value deck, so often the sideboard won't be needed except to deal with particular combo strategies. Thoughtseize will help attack most forms of combo and some types of control decks. Crypt effects will be needed since Shaman alone is not enough to handle Dredge, Lands, and other grave-centric strategies, and Spellbomb is still pretty good against Esper. Plague helps handle all forms of tribal, token generations, and will be your go-to card against the rise of combo Elves. Mindbreak Trap is your hedge against storm, since we can't support Force of Will. Liliana helps grind out against UW Miracles, other midrange decks, and is your saving grace againt Show and Tell. Pithing Needle is just a miser's method of halting various random annoyances.

I haven't figured out the best land configuration, but this deck really only uses blue as a minor splash color instead of as a major component. So I would focus more heavily on hitting the Jund colors first. Perhaps 10 Fetchlands, 1 swamp, 1 forest, 1 mountain, 2 bayou, 2 badlands, 2 taiga, 1 volcanic island, 1 underground sea, 1 tropical island, and 1 random utility land -- maybe Dustbowl, Karaks, or a manland.

kiblast

01-07-2013, 12:53 PM

Our builds are very similar.But I still think that we can afford to play FoW and jamming 4 copies is rather easy, so we should still play it. This deck difficultly runs out of gas given the insane amount of card advantage it generates so most of the times I'd rather have fow backup instead of more threats.
I love thoughtseizes maindeck and I'm currently playing 3 copies. Is so good vs. everything that difficultly you'll side it out while almost always you'll side it in. In testing I found that (despite what GP Denver shown us) cascading into Thoughtseize, while not the best cascade ever, is still a solid play most of the times.
Liliana: I'm currently trying her maindeck (3 copies) but I don't have enough testing to say if it's good maindeck material or not. Certainly if I have to stress the manabase to reliably provide BB, it would be for Liliana (which is gamebreaking if uncontested, and provides a catch all answer for the bigger dudes you can't burn with Bolts or Lavamancer) and not Hymn to Tourach (and I was playing Tourach before).
Good call on Grim Lavamancer, I'm already playing 2 md and the third in the sideboard, very strong right now.
My land config. is 10 Duals, 9 Fetchlands, 2 Basics. I honestly think that playing more than 2 basics might hurt your mana development in the early stage of the game. I don't think you will ever need any utility land but I'm intrigued by Volrath's Stronghold.

On a side note: This deck looks awesome when built all in foil/Alpha-Beta. The look of foil Deathrites next to Alpha Bolts and foil Fire/Ices is amazing! Rainbow!

Edit: How's been Jitte in testing?

wcm8

01-07-2013, 02:49 PM

Jitte takes over games. It turns your little vanilla beaters into legitimate threats. It definitely gives you the upper hand against any deck with creatures, and is a potential out against a resolved Mother of Runes. It's just there as a random singleton, and I wouldn't necessarily say it's essential. Before I was playing it in the sideboard, but since the metagame seems to be revolving around board control, I've been liking the card in the maindeck.

catmint

01-07-2013, 05:11 PM

I also don't think cutting force is good. Combo beeing low right now stops beeing true as we "speak". But even if you don't expect a lot of combo - with that amout of card advantage it is no problem to support FoW and having backup for those critial turns is always good. Vendilion clique is also very good versus control so 2 are pretty set for me.

For me canadian is still a topic: We just loose if we don't develop our mana, but with that manabase it will happen...:) That's why I think 1-2 Ponder Maindeck are a decent choice. Also Baleful Strix as a sideboard card might be interesting to look at.

wcm8

01-07-2013, 05:37 PM

I could see those two flex slots in the list I posted being 2 Force of Will, with perhaps the other two somewhere in the SB. But it's a card that's currently at an all-time low, at least in the Eastern US metagame.

kingtk3

01-08-2013, 04:18 AM

Whether a combination of DRS/goyf or DRS/grim is played, I think the deck is soft to Rest in peace: what creature do you think we could play that doesn't rely on the grave? My concern is that without grave we are left with a bounch of 1/1 and 2/2.

.Ix

01-08-2013, 05:20 AM

PV Posted a 4 color cascade deck on his column at ChannelFireball:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/pvs-playhouse-preparing-for-legacy/

4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Shardless Agent
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Island

I think Grim Lavamancer is better than running PFire + Grove + no Wastelands. I'm not sure how often or how early Jace comes out, or how often you'd play it over a BBE in hand. The curve is pretty high for 22 lands and 2 dorks.

My meta doesn't allow me to cut FOW or 2 Clique either, and I don't think we need to metagame that hard against fair decks anyway.

Kingtk3: We could play Quirion Dryad, I guess.

Catmint: Sylvan Library helps in (re)building a mana base against Canadian. I run it in Junk which has a similarly weak mana base, and it's really really good in the delver matchups.

kiblast

01-09-2013, 04:28 PM

Today I tested this deck for the first time in live games.
The list I was using:

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Fire / Ice
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte

9 Fetchlands
10 Duals
1 Island

I end up 2-1 Vs Bug Control
4-3 Vs Welder MUD (not that I care about this matchup, whatever)
1-2 Vs Bug Aggro (I mulligan the first to 6 on the play and win, I mulligan the second to 5 and was almost winning, g3 I kp a solid 3lander+business but I flood topdecking 3 lands in a row-with 4 on the battlefield- in midgame while opponents topdecks Goyf Goyf Scavenging)

The deck is absolutely a blast to play. It's fun, and can pull off some amazing plays. I feel that the 3rd Decay md is needed (as I was already suspescting while sleeving the pile), although I just can't find space for it as I can't cut F/I for blue count (can't cut the 18th blue spell unless I cut a Fow, but I'd rather stab my left eye rather than playing 3 Fow in a deck like this. I can understand playing 3 Fow in UWx control or BUG control decks, in which you have plenty of answers/permission, but here FoW is either a 4 of or a 0 of.)
Regarding removals: Bolt should be your first 4 of to start with, then you add Decays and eventually F/I. I appreciated the versatility and the amount of spot removals in my brew, and I think that right now is essential to win the Deathrites attrition war.

Anyway, Sometimes the deck seemed to flood a bit so I might end up tossing in a singleton Top or Sylvan Library. Top can avoid Decay while Library can't, but we all know how good Library is in a midrange aggro deck. Another option would be Ponder as Catmint was already suggesting, but it seems a, I wouldn't say bad, but ''fair'' cascade flip, where this deck tries to accomplish ''unfair'' board positions by abusing said mechanic.

RE:Quirion Dryad. As much as it seems a weird idea, I like it and I might end up testing it.

Anyway this deck is miles ahead Jund cascade in my opinion. Seriously there is no point (except if your meta is warped by Tempo.decks ) to play Jund over this deck. Brainstorm obviously is the most obvious reason, but the possibility of casting Ancestral Recalls, and Fow as well put this deck in an overall better position than Jund brews.

Edit: my sb was a mess, but I'll write it anyways as I need some decent constructive criticism on it.

3 Reb
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Echoing Thruth
1 Krosan Grip
1 Clique (I absolutely want to fit the 2nd, maybe the 3rd Spellbomb may be cut? I have enough ways to deal with grave based strategies even in g1 anyways.)
1 Extirpate

Lastly, have you guys thought about Green Sun's Zenith ? Maybe as a 1of ?

Esper3k

01-09-2013, 04:37 PM

I haven't been heavily testing this deck yet since I'm not certain how actually competitive it is, but man is it fun as hell!

Every time you cascade you just get to go "Wheee! Card advantage!"

wcm8

01-09-2013, 05:14 PM

A card I would like to put forth under consideration (mostly for the sideboard) is Venser, Shaper Savant. Besides wrecking the Show and Tell matchup, he can also be pretty good against various control decks -- bouncing a Jace, Batterskull, or other troublesome permanents isn't bad, and if you have nothing else better to do, EOT bouncing an Agent or BBE can put you really far ahead in card advantage when you cascade again on your following main phase. I have added one to the SB for the time being. If Vendilion Clique finds its way back to the 75, I could also see Karakas being another consideration.

I got a little bit of testing in, and had favorable results against both Jund and BWGr Zombies, both of which are perhaps the grindiest decks in the format. Ancestral Visions seems to just be stronger than discard in the attrition matchup, whereas those decks were eventually forced into drawing late-game discard. Zombies of course folded to all of the grave hate and plagues out of the board. Though the testing is limited, it does at least help prove my assertion that RUGB is the 'Next Level' of midrange in Legacy, with the advantages of consistency granted by Brainstorm and the possibility of a stronger combo matchup thanks to FoW.

Unfortunately, this deck really loses hard to Burn since Price of Progress is nearly always going hit for 6+. If that catches on, we can always run 3-4 Chill to buy us some time to race. Dedicated land destruction strategies can also be problematic, though those are not incredibly popular right now.

Duress might be better in the sideboard over Thoughtseize. For one, it doesn't cost life and most combo decks aside from Show and Tell aren't playing creatures, and for another it can't be Diverted or Misdirected.

catmint

01-09-2013, 08:36 PM

.Ix

01-09-2013, 09:39 PM

RE:Quirion Dryad. As much as it seems a weird idea, I like it and I might end up testing it.

It's great, but it takes a while to get it out of bolt range. Not to mention all the decays around these days. Then again, there's really not much else we could run as a two drop against RIP.

Merchant Scroll could be good since it can fetch FOW, Brainstorm, or Fire/Ice and possibly even sideboard options like Curfew against Show and Tell, Reanimator, or RUG.

The biggest weakness of this deck, IMO is the fact that it can't close out games quickly enough. Sometimes the enemy draws outs, or just recovers before we can beat him down. I don't know exactly what we can do about that, but I tested 3 BBE 2 Garruk Wildspeaker to provide the alpha strike and/or additional bodies. The +1 is pretty sweet for this deck, actually. Untapping lands for Shaman burning, for playing ice on upkeeps, or untapping used Wastelands. Wolves are great for pressure, and the ultimate is something the deck wants to do. I can't say if it should really be in the deck or not, but it definitely seems more synergistic than Jace to me.

godofallu

01-09-2013, 11:24 PM

I like where this thread is going but i'm wondering if black has been easy on the manabase. Trying to play 1 drops in 4 different colors seems like manabase suicide. Lot alone the crazy people trying to run hymn.

kiblast

01-10-2013, 07:26 AM

I like to run a mimum of cards that cascading into at random is shit. 2 Abrupt seems necessary, but 3 or another GSZ does not make it for me. Maybe a bit subjective but I had a couple of times cascading into a dead abrupt - maybe someone does the math to weaken this argument. :)

You are perfectly right on cascading into GSZ, and stupidly I didn't consider this possibility. My bad.
The 3rd Decay is something I'm no the fence right now. Sometimes I feel it's needed but at the same time can't justify cascading into it more than once per game except for certain matchups.

Ponder goes even more up in value for me - yes it is a fair cascade but so is cascading into deathrite, lavamancer or brainstorm. It is just that against RUG establishing the manabase is so important and finding answers is also not too shabby. :) I am happy to see it early, late or most of the time cascading into it. Why not play 2.

First of all cascading into Deathrite midgame when you have plenty of mana available is very good. I agree BS and Grim are fair cascade targets. I could see taking out something in my build to fit a Ponder, but two seems really difficult as at the moment I don't know what to cut for them. Now that there are next to 0 Mother of runes in meta Jitte could be our first flex slot. I agree on the overall usefulness of Ponder VS tempo decks anyway.

As for removal I still value fire//ice high for the flexibility of drawing, tapping and going to the face. My removal suite overall: 4 bolt, 2 fire, 2 decay maindeck + 2 decay, 2 baleful strix in the board with this and goyfs you just need to make sure to have lands and you should not loose.

I completely agree with you. Fire/Ice is amazing. Upkeep mana denial is still very strong VS control, Tempo and other strategies. And it kills so many creatures. Looks like we have the same removal suite maindeck- I'm still working on the SB though.

Speaking of lands - Karakas is not an option for me. No space for colorless utility lands in a 4c deck. Weakness to non-basic hate is a price you pay for playing this over Shardless BUG or Jund.

Also funny that I am the only one holding on to the 2/2 split of BBE and Jace.

No way I'm going to play Karakas here. Regarding the split... I would need to test it but honestly I'd rather have the 3rd and 4th copies of BBE as they put more pressure on opp.

Zalren

01-10-2013, 10:15 AM

I used to play Shardless BUG Control but slowly moved it to Shardless/Bloodbraid BUGR deck. I took out Hymn to Tourach when I made the transition. Because of this thread, I started using Fire//Ice but then I was thinking, maybe Rise//Fall would be good in this deck? Semi hymn semi cascade recur.

.Ix

01-10-2013, 10:55 AM

Man Rise/Fall is an amazing card. It really does things that the deck wants to do. If only it were easier to hardcast!

catmint

01-10-2013, 09:35 PM

Thanks for your analysis kiblast.

It's great, but it takes a while to get it out of bolt range. Not to mention all the decays around these days. Then again, there's really not much else we could run as a two drop against RIP.

Rip is not a big problem. The most unfair things we do don't need the yard + we have abrupt decay. Side out goyfs and reduce deathrites - bring in more decay and discard. Terminus is much more of a concern.

The biggest weakness of this deck, IMO is the fact that it can't close out games quickly enough. Sometimes the enemy draws outs, or just recovers before we can beat him down. I don't know exactly what we can do about that, but I tested 3 BBE 2 Garruk Wildspeaker to provide the alpha strike and/or additional bodies. The +1 is pretty sweet for this deck, actually. Untapping lands for Shaman burning, for playing ice on upkeeps, or untapping used Wastelands. Wolves are great for pressure, and the ultimate is something the deck wants to do. I can't say if it should really be in the deck or not, but it definitely seems more synergistic than Jace to me.

This is strange thinking. The deck does not need to close out games quickly. It has mostly inevitably (played some grindy games against goblins and nic fit - not even they can usually keep up with all that card advantage). But also the statement "not closing out quickly" is wrong. Sure the goldfish is not like a delver deck but once a goyf, shardless and deathrite out you hit so heavy + there is burn and haste. The deck kills very quickly and this is actually one of the big advantages. You pressure the life total but if they stabilize the board there is an ancestral and what not waiting.

But most important:
Concerning your question "what can you do when they stabilize". Choosing Garruk over Jace is like playing birds of paradies over deathrite because it flies. Who care's about a bunch of 2/2's. Jace will give you all the brokenness you can ever imagine - drawing cards and setting up cascades at the same time. Not beeing synergistic is just wrong. Jace has so much synergy with this deck it is not even funny. :smile: Not only will he make a lot more damage much faster than Garruk, he is a different angle of attack that can't be answered by stuff like Jitte, Batterskull, Terminus or Tombstalker which all are serious obstacles to a bunch of creatures.

I am usually not that stubborn if everyone is doing it the other way, but I think I got this one right. The deck has acceleration, a supreme board position and a lot of board control to enable a winning jace. Hell even caleb durwald want's to play Jace in a 4c Delver list -http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-return-of-4-color-thresh/ I don't like the idea or the build, but even in this list where jace has a lot less synergy and the deck is much more aggressive without inevitability, Caleb thinks Jace is a good idea.

Yes BBE is awesome and there are imo only 4 (5 max) slots for 4 drops, but I never regret playing jace, but a blind cascade with elf into Goyf can be depressing if the opponent has ...let's say a Goyf, Batterskull, SD.top (into Terminus), so a 2/2 split of BEE and Jace has served me very very well.

.Ix

01-11-2013, 11:55 AM

Rip is not a big problem. The most unfair things we do don't need the yard + we have abrupt decay. Side out goyfs and reduce deathrites - bring in more decay and discard. Terminus is much more of a concern.

I agree, I don't see RIP as a problem either. I just said that because that's what he was asking about.

This is strange thinking. The deck does not need to close out games quickly. It has mostly inevitably (played some grindy games against goblins and nic fit - not even they can usually keep up with all that card advantage). But also the statement "not closing out quickly" is wrong. Sure the goldfish is not like a delver deck but once a goyf, shardless and deathrite out you hit so heavy + there is burn and haste. The deck kills very quickly and this is actually one of the big advantages. You pressure the life total but if they stabilize the board there is an ancestral and what not waiting.

I've been facing Merfolk and this happens quite a bit in that matchup. Floating an Ancestral means litte if the opponent vials in two lords and suddenly threatens lethal.

Jace is definitely good in this deck, but I really don't think you can knock Garruk before you try him. It's like Tezz AOB in affinity: play, +1 to do something, then -4 for huge damage. That's not bad at all. My meta is very different, though. People are still playing lots of Reanimator and Affinity, both of which are decks that can realistically topdeck stuff that can kill me in a few turns even if I draw 3. Inevitability doesn't matter quite as much in these matchups. I would play Jace if I faced a lot of grindy decks, but I wouldn't play him in my meta.

Qweerios

01-11-2013, 12:26 PM

Telperion

01-11-2013, 12:28 PM

catmint

01-11-2013, 12:58 PM

Tutoring in a midrange deck like this has to be either super flexible (aka demonic - i.e: goblin matron) or give some additional value like stoneforge mystics body & utility as the most common and synergistic 2:1 "tutor". Cascading into something is one thing because you do get the 2 for 1 and put something on the board, but it is also important to make every card worth casting by itself. A turn 2 or 3 sorcery speed tutor can make you fall behind in tempo since you are neither advancing your board position nor disrupting the opponent. Hence spending "tempo" for a tutor is best if the follow-up is very strong like high-tide killing you. :smile:

I am thinking about trying a 3/3 split of shardless agent and BBE along 2 Jace (& 2 vendilion clique as additional strong 3 drops). 1 mana for a 3/2 haste compared to a 2/2 vanilla sounds fair. I'll check how often I end up with too much uncastable clunk in my hand. :smile:

MaximumC

01-11-2013, 01:28 PM

Merchant scroll is very interesting. Cascading into tutors is pretty scary and would allow us a lot of flexibility with our sideboard optons such as having a singleton Surgical or KGrip availlable through 2 scrolls for Batterskull and other cards. Scrolling a FoW or a Decay seems like a great option as well. Hell, maybe even for Izzet Charm or the new Dimir Charm.

EDIT: Oh nvm, blue instant card. Well, it still works with charms...

Yeah, you can run Mechant's Scroll, but you then have to include singleton blue instants to deal with the same problem. Things like Chain of Vapor, Echoing Decay, etc. These things are not terrible with Cascade creatures, either.

anwei

01-19-2013, 10:52 PM

I played 4C Cascade at a little event today, which usually draws 20-40 but only had 11 (fairly competitive folks) show up. I played this:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
3 Trop
2 U Sea
1 Volc
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
=22

4 Brainstorm
4 Visions
4 FoW
2 Thoughtseize
=14

4 Bolt
3 Decay
=7

4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
1 Clique
2 BBE
2 JTMS
1 Jitte
=18
=61

Sideboard:
3 Duress (only have access to 2 Thoughtseize)
2 Mindbreak Trap (lots of storm often present)
2 Pyroblast
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Lily
1 Loam
2 E Plague
2 Surgical Extraction

I ran 61 cards because I couldn't decide between 21 and 22 land, and 21/61 = 21.66/60, plus I didn't want to cut anything.
Went 3-0-1 (ID) but lost in T4. Beat 4C Blade, Deadguy, and Merfolk; lost to Hypergenesis. Feels unbeatable in grindy matches. Obviously cascade is ridiculous - Once I untapped empty-handed on 5 life against Lily@4, Bob, and 2x Spirits (at 17) life and played BBE->Agent->DRS, swung at Lily, stabilize, win. Miser jitte was great. Bolt is an incredible upgrade moving from Shardless Bug, as a faster removal spell than decay which handles planeswalkers.
But, definitely not the side I want to be on in combo games, especially things like Hypergenesis (redundancy>discard; Bolt+Decay<monsters). If I kept playing this, I would want access to more discard - need to pick up more Thoughtseize/Lily and think about whether Hymn could work.

The Treefolk Master

01-22-2013, 11:16 AM

In case you haven't seen it, RUGw Cascade Top 15th at the SCG Open this Sunday. Here's the deck tech: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_4_color_cascade_with.html

As he says on the video, the deck crushes all fair strategies, but has faces trouble against combo decks. Storm based and graveyard baseds strategies should be adressed by Countertop and Rest in Peace post board, respectively. However, there's still no answer for Sneak and Tell (and Reanimator, Omniscience, etc), which are the deck's biggest problems. I think that if we can build an effective SB strategy vs them this deck can really be a contender in the metagame, with all the BUG vs Jund vs Junk paraphernalia going on. My ideas are:

Venser, Shaper's Savant (off Show and Tell)
Detention Sphere/Oblivion Ring (the former has more utlity, the latter is inmune to REBs, which could be a huge upside)
Pithing Needle (Sneak Attack/Griselbrand).

Any thoughts?

anwei

01-22-2013, 06:39 PM

However, there's still no answer for Sneak and Tell (and Reanimator, Omniscience, etc), which are the deck's biggest problems. I think that if we can build an effective SB strategy vs them this deck can really be a contender in the metagame, with all the BUG vs Jund vs Junk paraphernalia going on. My ideas are:

Venser, Shaper's Savant (off Show and Tell)
Detention Sphere/Oblivion Ring (the former has more utlity, the latter is inmune to REBs, which could be a huge upside)
Pithing Needle (Sneak Attack/Griselbrand).

Any thoughts?

His inclusion of Counterbalance was certainly interesting - as he noted, cascade means permanent answers are better out of those colors. Unfortunately, as you point out, Counterbalance is not fantastic against Show and Tell. It also catches hate aimed at the card itself, as it's a widespread strategy in its own right (though often that will be game 3), so Storm has Abrupt Decay, etc.

Clique mainboard seems pretty good for both combo and fair matches. Many fair matches turn into slugfests with many small bodies and ground stalls. The "evasion" of DRS is obviously huge here, and having other evasive guys while Tarmogoyfs stare each other down is very good.
Another maindeck option is Izzet and Dimir charms, hard-cast-able counters which aren't dead when you hit them off cascade (both are okay as removal in the current meta and have a 3rd mode which is often better than just cantripping).

I really like black over white, so sphere/ring are out, but Venser is decent. If the SnT decks keep drifting back toward Sneak Attack, Sower might be more powerful in more match-ups, though obviously Showing Sower vs. Sneak Attack is awkward.
Pithing Needle can be a fine card in some matches and might be okay if you fear Terminus, but there are enough ways that it's dead against Sneak/Show that it's probably not my silver bullet of choice. Using a card to turn their giant lifelink bargain demon into a giant lifelink demon is not much closer to winning.

alekill

01-23-2013, 09:53 AM

I got second at a small tournament yesterday playing RUG with no splash, I'll try and write a small report this evening but I'll give what I played now.

Round 1: Dredge 2-0
Round 2: Bant 0-2
Round 3: BUG Delver 2-1
Round 4: Deadguy Ale splashing green for abrupt decay. 2-1.
Round 5: Dredge (different player) 2-1.
Round 6: UR Stiflenought 0-2.

anwei

01-31-2013, 10:28 PM

I 3-0'd a small local event with GRUB, didn't drop a game (only played fair decks). Similar list to above.

Another GRUB list, with punishing fire, just showed up as 3rd/? on TC Decks: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10050&iddeck=73247
For permission, he has 4 Force, 2 Clique main; 3 Red blast in the board. How does that deck ever beat combo? The top 8 is all fair (except scapeshift, which won), so maybe he just dodged it, but ??

hyggli

02-15-2013, 07:01 PM

Hi! This is my list atm, crushes esperblade but has some weakness to punishing fire

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic island
1 Taiga
4 Misty rainforest
4 Wooded foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
3 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble hierarch
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Noble hierarch
1 Progenitus
2 Vendilion clique

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Brainstorm
3 Natural Order
2 Force of will
2 Misdirection
2 Jace, the mind sculptor

sb
2 Venser Shaper savant
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Misdirection
3 Blood moon
2 Jace Beleren
3 tormod's crypt

The deck is all about bombs, and the plan is to make 10 damage in the first few turns landing a lot of pieces so that your opponent can't deal with all of em and cast a natural order to deal the last ones, keeping ur hand full of goodies. 3 brainstorms is just for value. It's a great card but usually you just don't have the time to cast it and really most of the time you don't want to flip it with a bloodbraid elf. Anyway you need 'em for progenitus.
The problems here are
1)combo. I really can't imagine to win a pre-sided match vs ant, so I just want a better jund matchup and be it. Show and tell is still a nightmare as it was
2)Vindicate-waste effects just pwn us. 6 basics are a must I believe with this version.
3)I need to find a good 2-drop in-color. Did even think about Viridian Zealot because all our problems come from omniscence/jitte. And sometimes are great even vs Sylvan library,vials or counterbalance.
4)Can't decide between misdirection or force of will. In this metagame, abrupt decay and such are a big deal, so I think I can spit em.

Just tell me what you think because I really enjoy playing with this deck and want to improve its matchups.
Thanks in advance

.Ix

02-17-2013, 01:01 PM

I don't think this deck can survive in RUG colors when the format speeds up again. It's going to have to run quite a bit of discard maindeck. This is going to be hard because mana dorks are typically bad cascades.

How about running Elvish Spirit Guides to speed up? Cascading into them is pretty decent and only happens with BBE in the first place. They are better topdecks than Birds of Paradise in the mid-late game, as well, but they are still horrible against combo. They enable some pretty sick lines such as the following:

Turn 1 Thoughtseize/Brainstorm, Turn 2 Shardless
Turn 1 Thoughtseize/Brainstorm AND DRS, Turn 2 Shardless
Turn 1 DRS, Turn 2 Shardless, Wasteland
Turn 1 DRS, Turn 2 Thoughtseize/Brainstorm, Shardless
Turn 1 DRS, Turn 2 BBE
Turn 1 DRS, Turn 2 Garruk Wildspeaker, +1, Hymn/Wasteland/Thoughtseize/Decay

All of these potentially with FOW backup. These lines can wreck people pretty hard, but I'm not sure if they're worth running otherwise bad cards for.

Against Show and Tell, Aethersnipe seems like a great card to Show. It's not as good as Venser, but it's much easier to find.

.Ix

03-13-2013, 02:34 AM

Sorry about the double post, but I thought this was worth a bump. This is the highest finish yet for this deck: 3rd place out of 384! Pretty incredible performance for this deck, I'd say.

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10317&iddeck=75203

1 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Treetop Village
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Seal of Removal
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant

It's basically blue Jund. Doesn't run FOW, has 3 Lilianas, and no Ancestral Vision. The last part is understandable if FOW is cut, and his meta is full of fair decks so I can see why he'd cut the FOWs and runs Strixes.

Piceli89

03-13-2013, 01:03 PM

3 Brainstorm

ironclad8690

03-18-2013, 12:16 PM

Now this is what I'm talkin' bout!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54137

Creatures (20)

4 Shardless Agent
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (1)

1 Domri Rade
Lands (21)

1 Forest
1 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
Spells (18)

1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Boom / Bust
Sideboard

SB:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Force of Will
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap

phazonmutant

04-11-2013, 12:12 PM

Top8'd a 20-person local last night with a Waterfalls-like brew. The list I played was almost certainly suboptimal, but I wanted to have some fun with cascading into Counterbalance.

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Baleful Strix
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Shardless Agent
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Force of Will
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Polluted delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sb
2 Counterbalance
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Force of Will
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Engineered Plague

The manabase kinda sucked because I forgot Catacombs can't find Volcanic Island. Otherwise it was fine. As expected, I felt glutted on 4-drops and felt like my deck didn't know what it wanted to be doing. Top was also pretty bad - didn't have mana for it usually. It's not like I was expecting anything else though...

Fun deck, but got savaged by Price of Progress out of UR delver. I lost a match to Maverick in the swiss as well, although that was mostly us taking turns being flooded or screwed. He drew out of his screw before I did and was able to Waste me out.

This deck has so much value, but it feels like it's hard to translate cards in hand to a win. We don't have enough mana to affect the board enough with all the cards. Maybe that was just my build though.

.Ix

04-14-2013, 03:06 PM

Top was also pretty bad - didn't have mana for it usually. It's not like I was expecting anything else though...

This deck has so much value, but it feels like it's hard to translate cards in hand to a win. We don't have enough mana to affect the board enough with all the cards. Maybe that was just my build though.

I agree with both points. I think Top is only good if you want to grind game 2 with a CB/Top lock. Otherwise, it's really awful.

The second point is something I've come to realize recently. I've tried ESG to allow earlier cascades, but I felt it was too risky and the CA-for-tempo trade isn't always worth it. OTOH, I've found playing more free spells is a great way to use cards in hand despite the mana bottleneck. FOW, Pyrokinesis, and Misdirection are great if the deck can support them. I'm trying Lotus Cobra right now with 10 fetches, and it's feeling much better than anything else I've tried as additional acceleration. I'm running RUGW with Stoneforge and Hierarch right now because I never really felt comfortable with the discard spells. With the Cobras, I actually run out of cards in hand now! I will test it more.

Also, the Stoneforge/Cobra build looks hilarious. A huge chunk of the deck is zen-alara standard legal.

phazonmutant

04-15-2013, 12:01 AM

I agree with both points. I think Top is only good if you want to grind game 2 with a CB/Top lock. Otherwise, it's really awful.

The second point is something I've come to realize recently. I've tried ESG to allow earlier cascades, but I felt it was too risky and the CA-for-tempo trade isn't always worth it. OTOH, I've found playing more free spells is a great way to use cards in hand despite the mana bottleneck. FOW, Pyrokinesis, and Misdirection are great if the deck can support them. I'm trying Lotus Cobra right now with 10 fetches, and it's feeling much better than anything else I've tried as additional acceleration. I'm running RUGW with Stoneforge and Hierarch right now because I never really felt comfortable with the discard spells. With the Cobras, I actually run out of cards in hand now! I will test it more.

Also, the Stoneforge/Cobra build looks hilarious. A huge chunk of the deck is zen-alara standard legal.

Cobra sounds pretty sweet. Are you splashing one or two B lands for Deathrite? Actually, are you even playing Deathrite?

Edit: reading comprehension! I see you're playing Hierarch over Deathrite. Isn't part of the reason people didn't try RUG cascade before Deathrite was because Hierarch was a miserable cascade?

.Ix

04-15-2013, 12:21 AM

Cobra sounds pretty sweet. Are you splashing one or two B lands for Deathrite? Actually, are you even playing Deathrite?

Edit: reading comprehension! I see you're playing Hierarch over Deathrite. Isn't part of the reason people didn't try RUG cascade before Deathrite was because Hierarch was a miserable cascade?

Apparently, this 4th place deck doesn't think so http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10539&iddeck=76887

Hierarch isn't that bad. It turns Cobras, Agents, SFM, and Cliques into stronger attackers -- something this deck really wants. I could very easily run Deathrite, but I just wanted to test a variation of this build and it seems to be working well. I made these changes: -1 Vision -1 Library -1 Bolt -1 Jace -3 Goyf +4 Cobra +2 Vendilion Clique +1 FOW.

Ayotte

04-17-2013, 02:19 PM

How does this list look? First attempt - some choices are related to card availability.

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmooyf
2 Scavenging Ooze (I only own 2 goyfs)
2 Vendillion Clique (or Liliana, I can't decide)

2 Jace, TMS

4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Punishing Fire
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard:

3 Pyrostatic Pillar (I saw a deck like this using it in Milwaukee and it seemed good)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Jace, TMS
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thoughtseize
2 Clique/Liliana, whichever isn't main

Qweerios

04-19-2013, 02:06 PM

I decided to stay away from the 4th color altogether for reasons pertaining to the manabase. I think Boom // Bust is what Wasteland should be in this deck. It comes down as a devastating surprise and will answer any problematic land. I think we need to accept that we need to devote considerable SB space to storm combo, and that Show n Tell decks will be nightmares. As for any fair/control/aggro based decks out there, I believe our odds are very favorable. Here is the latest RUG version I have played:

Creatures (20)
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (20)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Boom // Bust
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (20)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle

I think there is no reason not to play 4 FoW main with 7 Cascade dorks and 4 Ancestral Vision, free counterspells are a great way to use card advantage.

wcm8

04-19-2013, 02:11 PM

Regarding Noble Hierarch vs. Deathrite Shaman: Does Exalted and the non-conditional nature of its mana-production outweigh the benefits of a 1/2 body, graveyard disruption, access to Red Mana, and (given a small Black splash) reach? I can see the benefits of both mana dorks, but I think Shaman is just so strong that he's not worth passing up if its feasible...

Zupponn

04-19-2013, 02:15 PM

3 Pyrostatic Pillar (I saw a deck like this using it in Milwaukee and it seemed good)
And here's that list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55018
It's nice to be able to give a shoutout to a local player. :)

Qweerios

04-20-2013, 02:01 PM

.Ix

04-21-2013, 12:44 PM

@wcm8,

It all depends on the matchup at hand. Deathrite is overall the better card but the strain it puts on the manabase is not negligible. I prefer staying on 3 colors if I intend on casting double blue-costed cards like Jace and Clique. Delving into a 4th color for Deathrite makes the deck more powerful against the least interactive decks but will surely make you think twice about fetching basic lands. Splashing a 4th color is great against combo and control decks but leaves a bitter taste against aggro and tempo. It is true that the combo matchup isn't at its finest but I consider control and aggro decks conquered and tempo decks to be more of a threat.

What RUG gives me? It gives my deck a much needed chance against Stifle/Wasteland decks.
What RUGb gives me? It gives me additional value against midrange/control (which I already have plenty of), and slightly improves my combo matchup at the cost of a smooth game against tempo.

Yes, Deathrite's mana production being conditional can be awful sometimes. Turn 1 DRS, turn 2 Shardless will mean you have to play at least 2 fetchlands to make 4 mana on turn 3. Making 4 mana in one turn is often a prerequisite to beating people.

Regarding the fourth color: I think White gives us very strong options against non interactive decks in game 2. Rest in Peace destroys graveyard decks and Oblivion Ring beats Show and Tell while working as additional removal against cards we don't like to see (Goyf, Jace). Pyro pillar is nice tech against Storm and Elves, and it's perfect because I was getting less and less impressed with the CB lock against these decks. And let's not forget how relevant Stoneforge is against most decks at any point in the game.

How has lavamancer been for you? I was thinking of running it myself. Seems better than punishing fire.

anwei

05-17-2013, 12:54 AM

What RUG gives me? It gives my deck a much needed chance against Stifle/Wasteland decks.
What RUGb gives me? It gives me additional value against midrange/control (which I already have plenty of), and slightly improves my combo matchup at the cost of a smooth game against tempo.

I'm wondering how people have addressed the RUG Delver matchup. I ran a handful of games tonight and they did not go well - the nature of cascade abuse opens up a very disruptable curve. I'm inclined to fit a couple of basics in at the very least, even if this means running 0 wasteland and only 1 black source, and perhaps switching to Hierarchs. (I really like DRS's ability to edge out ground-stall match-ups, though Fire + Jace can probably get there okay.)

Any more thoughts on Boom//Bust? Do Bust board states come up enough to really be worth it?

Edit: Though I also go back and forth on the 4th Ancestral Vision, I really want to want 5 of them badly enough to run Research//Development. Research adding (say) Submerge and a Jace for grindy creature matches might be fun, but Development seems like a really fun cascade (even if it's just a worse Vision).

Qweerios

05-17-2013, 01:51 PM

Boom // Bust is a strong cascade whenever you have board superiority or a suspended Ancestral Vision. Destroying all lands with a Bloodbraid in play is a bit like starting a game with a flipped delver. However, cutting back to 3 colors makes the inclusion of a playset of Wasteland a very real possibility.

I would never want to draw Research // Development at any point in the game.

Grim Lavamancer is a great replacement for DRS and an excellent metagame choice at the moment.

SaintS

05-19-2013, 02:54 PM

Hi everyone!

I've been looking to build me a new deck in Legacy as I get a bit bored of my Dredge, and this one looks pretty sick, I love even more the 4c version that arrived 3rd in that japanese tournament, the only thing I'm missing were the Ancestral Vision, so here is a list with some modifications, I would like to hear what you think about it :

1 Badlands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Treetop Village
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Bayou
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
1 Domri Rade
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision

What do you guys think about the Garruk? it was in the list but I don't really see if it is that good or not (probably because I didn't test it yet)

thanks a lot!

yaWgnorW

06-18-2013, 07:29 PM

I've been exploring around looking for a deck thats strong but not so commonly used, and stumbled upon this and so far I love it. I love Shardless BUG so naturally this deck intrigues me. I noticed the last post was a month ago, any reason?

I understand going RUG without the x on the end is going to be more consistent, but I can't help but look at B for Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. I like the idea of that 4th being W, but so far I think B is the winner. This is a quick list I've tossed together.

//Creatures 16
4 Shardless Agent
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

//Spells 22
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Ancestral Vision

//Lands 22 - Still in progress

Having the black presence in the main is throwing me off on the mana base. If anyone can recommend something that would be great. I'm using the Punishing Fire package so Grove of the Burnwillows is most likely a 3 - 4 of. I'm looking at 9-10 fetches. Wasteland is tricky, either a 3 (since I'm using Black) or if I happen to drop Black then 4 of course.

The sideboard is going to have to hate on Combo. The 4th Force of Will and 3 copies of Pyrotasic Pillar are most likely going. Since I use black, I'm considering Thoughtseize for the side. What do we have (other then FoW) for Show and Tell?

EDIT: Forgot something else. I'm not so sure on the FoW in the main, but I do see the reason for it. I am also not so certain on the 4 BBE's. As a 4cc card, maybe dropping the number to 3 in the main wouldn't be so bad?

mini1337s

06-18-2013, 09:19 PM

catmint

06-19-2013, 03:03 AM

I built and tested RUGb cascade pretty intensively.

Punishing Fire is not what the deck needs. You have so much late game power and should trump most other late game decks anyway. The problematic things are: Manascrew (Canadian) and combo so this is what you should tune the 75 for.

Black is certainly a good addition. Deathrite is so much better than hierarch and a couple of decas helps against larger creatures and problematic permanents, but most important is the discard which is big deal to support the combo matchup.

yaWgnorW

06-19-2013, 01:34 PM

Qweerios

06-19-2013, 03:13 PM

yaWgnorW

06-19-2013, 03:53 PM

You need to up your blue count for FoW. Put the 4th FoW in, the card is great with all the Ancestral Visions firing off and is your greatest answer for many decks. Fire // Ice, Izzet Charm, Ponder, and Vendilion Clique are all great ways to add blue cards to the deck as well. Don't play more than 2-3 Decays, they become clunky really fast when you try to cast them.

Concerning 4c manabase, you want all of your fetches to be blue and all of your duals to have blue in them. My 4 colored manabase looked like this:

2 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Taiga

Or if you want basic lands, do the following changes:
-1 Delta
-1 Volcanic
+1 Island
+1 Forest

You might want to look into adding a 4th Trop or losing the 3rd Volcanic, or even add a Bayou depending on the cards you use. A list with Jace, Clique, or Ponders will require a blue heavy manabase while a list favoring Decay, Thoughtseize, Ooze, Goyf might require a more green heavy manabase with additional black sources.

Thank you for the help. I see your last deck list was posted in April (top of this page), do you happen to have an updated list or has it remained the same?
I suppose what I'm trying to do is add the 4th color black, which makes the deck heavy on green. I don't care for Jace with the B mixture, but I know if I simply went with RUG and no 4th color I'd run him without question. I'll drop an Abupt Decay as you suggest. I was onto this feeling anyway. What is your opinion on the Punishing Fire package?

Qweerios

06-19-2013, 05:40 PM

Punishing Fire is fine but really unnecessary. The deck is very mana hungry and buying back shocks won't be your best play in most cases. I think Grim Lavamancer has way more synergy with the rest of the deck than Punishing Fire. Also, cascading into direct damage and removal (Decay) is considered the worst cascades for this deck. Converting extra cards into damage or bricking on removal is poor value when you spent 3 mana for a 2/2 and your deck consists mainly of midrange pressure.

Personally, I have stopped playing this deck entirely because combo is very popular right now and this particular matchup is abysmal. If I were to play it again, I would play a RUG only list for Grim Lavamancer and a playset of Wastelands with a 12-15 card SB dedicated entirely to combo. It would look something like this:

Creatures (20)
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (18)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
4 Mindbreak Trap

mistercakes

06-19-2013, 05:56 PM

yaWgnorW

06-20-2013, 06:52 PM

I see how tough Combo is, but yes side boarding should be able to help, but count the first game out unless they don't have answer if your FoW resolves. Anyway, I'm sticking with just RUG. Black complicates things, and I like Wasteland to much. Random Question, is Vexing Devil an option? I'm really just curious here.

Qweerios

06-21-2013, 02:14 AM

Random Question, is Vexing Devil an option? I'm really just curious here.
No.

yaWgnorW

06-24-2013, 04:12 PM

Deck got piloted to a top 8 this past weekend (SCG tournament)...pretty interesting seeing it in action. Lost to re-animator 2 out 3, both wins going to the re-animator while it was on the play.

WorstBandNameEver

06-24-2013, 05:53 PM

Deck got piloted to a top 8 this past weekend (SCG tournament)...pretty interesting seeing it in action. Lost to re-animator 2 out 3, both wins going to the re-animator while it was on the play.

The pilot went 6-1-1 and drew into top 8. His only loss in the swiss was to Chris Pikula.

yaWgnorW

06-24-2013, 07:30 PM

The pilot went 6-1-1 and drew into top 8. His only loss in the swiss was to Chris Pikula.

Who was also in the top 8. Its nice to see its viable and has some game vs combo.

WorstBandNameEver

06-24-2013, 09:17 PM

Who was also in the top 8. Its nice to see its viable and has some game vs combo.

The pilot is a friend of mine. He played the guy in first on Maverick and Waterfalls only loss of the day. I'm not sure how much combo my friend saw that day honestly, I only caught a few of his matches when I was not playing.

My buddy has only played legacy now for about 4-5 months. His first event was SCG Edison and he top 64ed with a budget mono blue deck. This is his second big legacy event so he's doing pretty well respectively.

He did mention a misplay in Game 3 as soon as we were walking out. There was one show and tell in the yard already and he could have attempted to surgical the SnT which might have slowed things and kept the griselbrand off the board a few more turns. I have not watched the replay yet, but I will have to see.

Waterfalls seems like a really fun deck to play and it seems to have some potential.

yaWgnorW

06-26-2013, 08:14 PM

The pilot is a friend of mine. He played the guy in first on Maverick and Waterfalls only loss of the day. I'm not sure how much combo my friend saw that day honestly, I only caught a few of his matches when I was not playing.

My buddy has only played legacy now for about 4-5 months. His first event was SCG Edison and he top 64ed with a budget mono blue deck. This is his second big legacy event so he's doing pretty well respectively.

He did mention a misplay in Game 3 as soon as we were walking out. There was one show and tell in the yard already and he could have attempted to surgical the SnT which might have slowed things and kept the griselbrand off the board a few more turns. I have not watched the replay yet, but I will have to see.

Waterfalls seems like a really fun deck to play and it seems to have some potential.

I agree, I do think it has potential. Just like every deck has that general weakness to something (usually its combo) just need to find a reasonable answer. I mean, comparing this to Punishing Jund, that's another deck that struggles vs combo. The difference being that Jund uses the proactive approach (hand disruption) and has access to other black tricks, RUG has the more responsive approach.

HSCK

09-06-2013, 11:46 PM

Ayotte

09-07-2013, 12:53 AM

So after a summer that has shown a marked increase in the usage of midrange and creature decks, but with still a fair number of combo decks, how do you feel about this deck's place in the meta? I've been trying out variations of Shardless decks beyond BUG. Bant has some excellent power with Stoneforge, but in the end it lacks the disruption/removal you'd need going forward.

I've been playing a Shardless Bant deck with Stoneforge and Counterbalance (and Thopter Combo), and it's been pretty good and a ton of fun. I run 4 swords to plowshares and 2 terminus, with 1 more terminus in the board. It has a very good matchup against creature decks, and counterbalance helps a lot against storm decks.

.Ix

09-07-2013, 07:00 AM

Would you mind sharing your list Ayotte? That deck definitely sounds interesting.

Ayotte

09-07-2013, 11:56 AM

Only difference from this list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26523-Shardless-Thopters&p=745389&viewfull=1#post745389) is -1 Celestial Colonnade, +1 Shardless, -1 Savannah +1 Forest, with the Moat & Sideboard FoW swapped.

HSCK

09-08-2013, 01:37 AM

That's all well and good, but is anyone working on RUG or just the Thopter variant?

kingtk3

09-09-2013, 05:54 AM

That's all well and good, but is anyone working on RUG or just the Thopter variant?

I've been playing my stock RUG list during the summer, and one of my friends had a final and a top8 with it (in 25+ man events). Here's the deck

3 sensei's divining top
4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
2 grim lavamancer
4 shardless agent
4 bloodbraid elf
4 brainstorm
4 lightning bolt
2 fire / ice
4 force of will
4 ancestral vision
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
1 taiga
1 island
1 forest
1 mountain
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
3 wasteland

SIDE
3 counterbalance
2 surgical extraction
2 trygon predator
1 grafdigger's cage
3 red elemental blast
2 mindbreak trap
2 submerge

The main change I've done are the 3 tops in the main: other than their standard use, they are good in setting up cascade and, most of all, they pair up with the counterbalances in the side to fight combo which has always been this deck worst matchup.

Other than that I play 2 grim lavamancer over 2 fire, which has been proved right with all the elves/shaman/delver/etc flying around. I don't think I'd play more but I'm very happy with 2.

Regarding deathrite shaman: I've played it for some time, but than I found myself too weak to wasteland (I love to have a basic of each type), too weak to grave hate (RIP blanked 8 of my threats) but most of all I hated when I couldn't activate the mana ability for lack of lands in the graves or opposing shamans.

Hierarch, while not providing red, it always gives mana and make you win goyf or shardless wars and speed up the clock.

Aggro deck are not a problem with all the removals, effcient creatures and card advantage.

Control is all in NOT overextending into terminus.

The side is tailored to fight combo and grave, with an eye against Jace (REB).

HSCK

09-09-2013, 11:09 AM

I do dislike the conditional mana acceleration, but Deathrite can turn off their Deathrites, burn, and provide a g1 answer for GY strategies.

kingtk3

09-09-2013, 01:28 PM

I do dislike the conditional mana acceleration, but Deathrite can turn off their Deathrites, burn, and provide a g1 answer for GY strategies.

That's sure but in my experience I found that:

this deck is very mana hungry, so I want a reliable mana dork
since I want my mana to cast my spells I'm not inclined to use it to activate the shaman abilities
not having basics hurts a lot, especially if they manage to keep you off black mana so that you can't burn with shaman
you became very grave dependant

I'm aware, however, that there are other players who have consciounsly taken in account the risks of running shaman in 4-color builds, because of the great power and versatility it gives. Burg tempo is a clear example:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26647-Deck-bUrg-Tempo

However that deck is full of cheap drops (it tops at 2 with two goyfs and two abrupt decay) and so is less susceptible to land destruction and can make good use of spare mana with DRS.

Waterfall, instead, wants to reach 4 mana asap in order to make unfair cascades: that's the reason why I prefer a solid mana dork to a 1-mana-planeswalker in this deck.

If i'd want to swap the hierarch with shamans I would rearrange the mana base cutting the three basics and 1 wasteland for 1 underground sea, 1 bayou, 1 badland and 1 polluted delta. At this point I'd probably replace the lavamancer with 2 forked bolt (not sure about that, would need testing) to avoid relying too much on the grave: that would be though however, since Lavamancer is superb right now.

Of course if other black cards will be added (like abrupt decay) the mana base should change accordingly.

I don't think that playing DRS in this deck is straight wrong, but given my playstyle and the reasoning above I'm pretty sure is not completely necessary.

HSCK

09-10-2013, 11:47 PM

Have you tried countertop in the SB? I've just jammed Red Blasts and Mindbreak Traps and hope for the best most of the time against combo.

kingtk3

09-11-2013, 02:51 AM

Have you tried countertop in the SB? I've just jammed Red Blasts and Mindbreak Traps and hope for the best most of the time against combo.

Counterbalance has been very solid against combo and control: even against midrange has been good to the point that I'm contemplating moving it to the main deck.

I know that it seems strange with all the abrupt decay decks flying around, but they use it on the CB then they don't kill a goyf, which is fine.
If they don't, however, CB can lock them out off the game.

How can I say: I always loved aggro CB :-)

HSCK

09-11-2013, 10:29 AM

I've found using it to be quite fun too. You really do want to jam Cascade guys quickly to gain an advantage and CounterTop is a great way to disrupt considering the spectrum of casting costs in the deck.

Whitefaces

09-24-2013, 08:28 AM

kingtk3

09-24-2013, 09:33 AM

I had this together for a while and loved playing it. Ended up changing it to Shardless Bug for a bit, but just through something together last night as cascading is too much fun. The maindeck is a bit of an experiment, if anyone has any ideas, throw them at me. The spirit guides look weird, but they've been working like a charm. It's the sideboard I need help with. I always lose to a goblins player at my LGS, I'll be playing a small tourney tomorrow, what cards should I play? Pyroclasm? Or I guess whipflare is better...help is appreciated.

Maindeck:

4x Shardless Agent
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Deathrite Shaman (maybe should be BoP instead?)

4x Brainstorm
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Force of Will
4x Ancestral Vision

4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Wasteland
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
1x Taiga
1x Underground Sea

Since I play 4 lightning bolt, 2 fire // ice and 2 grim lavamancer main deck I've got less problems with aggro decks and I need less cards in side.

In your case I'd play a combination of engineered plague and pyroclasm: the former especially seems sweet in your deck since you have 8 ways (4 shaman and 4 guides) to cast it on turn 2, I'd play 3.

Regarding the guides: I think that in your deck elvish spirit guides are better than simians because they help you cast more cards when you are manascrewed (goyf, DRS, agent, BBE) while the latter helps only in casting bolts and BBE. However I can see an argument if you play REB in side, though in this case maybe I'd try a 2/2 split.

DRS is a better card than BoP and the main reason to splash Black, so I would keep them in.

eirirlar

12-18-2013, 04:34 AM

Here's my list.

1 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Ancestral Vision

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

1 Sylvan Library

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Bloodbraid Elf

#60

Sideboard:
1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swan Song
4 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague

#15

I've taken it to 3 tournaments and the results have been okay vs fair decks, but I'm struggling vs combo. I've recently moved 2 Vendilion Clique from SB to main and updated my sideboard to address reanimator, omnitell and sneak attack, hope it works out. Used to have Engineered Explosives in the SB, but the dissynergy with cascade made me remove them in favor of anticombo.

Feedback appreciated.

kingtk3

12-18-2013, 08:25 AM

...
I've taken it to 3 tournaments and the results have been okay vs fair decks, but I'm struggling vs combo. I've recently moved 2 Vendilion Clique from SB to main and updated my sideboard to address reanimator, omnitell and sneak attack, hope it works out. Used to have Engineered Explosives in the SB, but the dissynergy with cascade made me remove them in favor of anticombo.

Feedback appreciated.

Against which kind of combo do you need assistance?

HSCK

12-18-2013, 09:05 AM

Can Bloodbraid TNN be a real thing?

kingtk3

12-18-2013, 11:48 AM

It would be nice, what to cut however? If you cut shardless you lose cascade triggers and if you cut goyf you raise the mana curve and cannot shardless-cascade into TNN...

DragoFireheart

03-10-2014, 01:31 PM

This deck has been seeing play ala Shardless BUG/Waterfalls hybrid:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/223936

Qweerios

03-11-2014, 12:38 PM

That last list is very nice. I haven't got around testing the deck since the release of TNN but I can definitely see it played in Waterfalls over Clique. I Noticed how that latest list uses Izzet Charm over Fire // Ice. That was the last thing I tinkered with when I played the deck and Charm really shines in this deck. It acts as additional removal, a much needed counterspell, and a great cascade (faithless looting or shock). The looting part is great in here because it converts extra Ancestral Visions/lands in your hand into business spells.

Creeping Tar Pit > Wasteland is interesting. Definitely something to look into.

I disagree with all these Jaces, and seeing cards like FoW, Bolt, and Goyf being played under 4 copies.

A little thing that bugs me though is that it plays 4 Polluted Delta and 2 Scalding Tarn. Tarn is strictly superior here so I assume it was a budget constraint.

I will update the OP as I believe this deck is due to resurface. The deck had died off when combo represented 50% of the top tier decks but now that Midrange is making a comeback (thanks to TNN) and that Miracles and Team America are back in full force, lets give it another try.

DragoFireheart

03-11-2014, 12:57 PM

Yeah, seeing Jace when you have BBE seems pretty clunky.

Qweerios

03-11-2014, 02:33 PM

Sylvan Library, Ponder, and additional BBE are all better options than Jace. This was true even before TNN infested our format.

DragoFireheart

03-11-2014, 02:46 PM

Sylvan Library, Ponder, and additional BBE are all better options than Jace. This was true even before TNN infested our format.

Can we go RUGw? I really want a deck with SFM/Gofy/TNN...

How about something like this?

Rainbow Falls:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Izzet Charm
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Between DRS and Cascading, I think we could support a 5-color manabase.

kingtk3

03-11-2014, 05:24 PM

I don't see the point in playing red if you're not playing bloodbraid

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

Qweerios

03-12-2014, 02:36 AM

I played the waterfalls list in the OP tonight at a weekly tournament. I tied for first place.

2-1 vs nic fit,
tight games all around
2-0 vs UR landstill.
Control matchups are very easy
0-2 vs 12-post.
I drew very poorly but it is still a very difficult matchup with only two wastelands
2-0 vs team america
Basically a bye. This was super easy.

Izzet charm was fun and useful all around but very underwhelming. It is a nice card to boost the blue count over all but I think the space could be used a little more efficienty. I am thinking about raising the wasteland count to 3 or 4, maybe add some ponders or a 3rd decay would certainly not hurt.

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

eirirlar

03-12-2014, 04:02 AM

Qweerios

03-13-2014, 12:34 AM

Been working with my list quite a bit lately. Made top8 of 32 in a local tournament this weekend with a similar list as this:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

4 Ancestral Vision

1 Sylvan Library

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Izzet Charm
3 Punishing Fire

2 Engineered Explosives

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Shardless Agent
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Sideboard:

2 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Swan Song
2 Negate
4 Force of Will
2 Vendilion Clique

A couple of things I've found is necessary to beat the meta, is:
1) Play more lands (23), so you can more consistently play BBE and double Punishing Fire
2) Play many basics (4), so the tempo decks, pox and lands can't beat you so easily
3) Play many fetches (8), for filtering and mana of right type.
4) Play brainstorm even though it half-sucks to cascade into and you sometimes have to cascade without brainstorming.
5) Play cheap removal over expensive removal, lightning bolt is better than abrupt decay in this deck because a) swarms kill you, b) tempo kills you, c) increases the chances of casting removal and another spell in same turn.
6) Engineered Explosives is pretty good against stuff we have a hard time against, even though it half-sucks to cascade into (though not vs batterscull, delver, lingering souls, angels etc). Problems it's solving: equipment, jace, counterbalance, elves, true-name nemesis, nimble mongoose)
7) Scavenging ooze + deathrite is better than tarmogoyf + deathrite. A lot of decks like to use the graveyard. Tarmogoyf is good in tempo decks, and we're a midrange deck.
8) Jace is a winner in this deck. Clears the lane for attacks, delays death, helps vs combo, gives us better cascades, wins. I play 3 and it's really been helpful to draw him consistently.
9) Various combo decks is our greatest nemesis. I pack my sideboard full of counters and "discard" to handle this, and also have 2 counters main not because they're very good in main but because it's needed in the combo matchups.

Actually, tempo decks are among our most favorable matchups. The reason why you struggle against Tempo decks has a lot to do with your manabase. You play 23 lands but only half of them produce blue mana. You effectively have less access to blue mana than RUG delver by two lands... and they play 4 Ponders and everything costs 1 mana. You also play only 1 black source making multiple DRS worse than Noble Hierarch. Also, a single Wasteland on Bayou will turn off 4 of your threats.

I believe you are creating a false dilemma between Bolt and Decay as they were never mutually exclusive. The card Decay is competing with in your list is essentially Engineered Explosives. EE is simply not up to the plate when compared to Decay in a Cascade deck. The effect is symetric and since we tend to clog the board really fast, we will lose cards in the process. Cards like Lingering Souls are not a problem if you can handle the equipment on them and I believe Decay does a better job at that than EE. I think the biggest argument in favor of EE is to destroy Nemesis. Mongoose is not a threat to us by any stretch.

Jace doesn't help vs. combo. The only thing a Jace does vs. combo that is semi-useful is bounce a SnT Emrakul. The first card you should side out against any combo deck is Jace. He lost a lot of flavor against mid-range decks lately due to the popularity of TNN. Playing a TNN of your own is much better. Jace only really shines against control and those matchups are by far our best ones.

I prefer cards like Thoughtseize, Duress, and Cabal Therapy to soft counters simply because they cascade into pretty well. Against combo decks we get to side out BBE but Shardless has to stay for the blue count, therefore cascades will occur. Having a different angle of disruption is also greatly beneficial.

Ooze is indeed great but it isn't always better than Goyf. Ooze isn't nearly as good as Goyf in the early stages and requires an important mana investment before reaching board superiority. You cannot slam down an Ooze on T2-3 and expect it to live past a Bolt. I am all for the inclusion of 1-2 Ooze or a SB Ooze to be brought in certain matchups but I disagree on dismissing Goyfs altogether.

However, it is interesting to note how reducing our amount of Goyfs in favor of 3 CMC cards (Nemesis, Clique, Dismember for instance) increases our chances of cascading into our other spells such as DRS, Bolt, BS, Decay, and most importantly AV. I think it is important to have some kind of consistency in what you cascade into so that you know what to expect.

eirirlar

03-13-2014, 06:04 AM

Thanks for your reply.

Actually, tempo decks are among our most favorable matchups. The reason why you struggle against Tempo decks has a lot to do with your manabase. You play 23 lands but only half of them produce blue mana. You effectively have less access to blue mana than RUG delver by two lands... and they play 4 Ponders and everything costs 1 mana.

I understand what you're saying, but I dont see how more blue would help me against tempo?

You also play only 1 black source making multiple DRS worse than Noble Hierarch. Also, a single Wasteland on Bayou will turn off 4 of your threats.

It's rare that I need to finish off with deathrite, much more often I am in need of using him for lifegain or mana. If they waste my bayou then they don't waste my grove and I can live with that.

I believe you are creating a false dilemma between Bolt and Decay as they were never mutually exclusive. The card Decay is competing with in your list is essentially Engineered Explosives. EE is simply not up to the plate when compared to Decay in a Cascade deck.

I agree with this. However EE often comes down a turn earlier when it's in my opening hand, and might slow them down a turn since they delay playing that extra onedrop when EE is on the board.

The effect is symetric and since we tend to clog the board really fast, we will lose cards in the process.

I can see the validity of this argument when discussing a list with say 4 tarmogoyfs 2 scavenging oozes and maybe true-name in it. However I only play DRS and scavenging ooze. I'm usually happy to delay playing scavenging ooze, and deathrite shaman I only play approximately half of the time it's in my opening hand (other half I play ancestral vision). Also, I play one Academy Ruins which gives me shardless agent and EE back.

Cards like Lingering Souls are not a problem if you can handle the equipment on them and I believe Decay does a better job at that than EE.

Yeah, agree that this speaks in favor of Abrupt Decay.

I think the biggest argument in favor of EE is to destroy Nemesis.

Yup. And he's quite popular, at least in my meta.

Mongoose is not a threat to us by any stretch.

He can be quite annoying in my experience, but no not a huge threat.

One more thing on Abrupt Decay vs Explosives: while usually it's better to cascade into Abrupt Decay, it also happens that it sucks when opponent has no valid targets (say on turn two if you're on the play on have an unlucky cascade). In those cases EE might actually be better at least vs tempo, because EE @ 0 is a future threat for Delver which is heavily played at least in my meta.

Jace doesn't help vs. combo. The only thing a Jace does vs. combo that is semi-useful is bounce a SnT Emrakul. The first card you should side out against any combo deck is Jace.

I thought so when I first created this deck and avoided playing him for that reason. However lately I've found your assessment to be untrue. My plan against combo is to play lots of counters, then land Jace and fateseal turn after turn to prevent them from re-assembling important combo pieces. Also in the combo matchup I play 2 vendilion clique which jace can bounce. I also play 2 swan song which jace can clean up after. I also play 4 shardless agent which jace can make sure does not hit a counterspell - while digging for counterspells at the same time. And as you say he can bounce Emrakul (or Griselbrand). Just my two cents on Jace, we can agree to disagree on him :)

He lost a lot of flavor against mid-range decks lately due to the popularity of TNN.

I got EE for that. However Sword of Fire and Ice I have found to be a problem for Jace (and lightning bolt, and punishing fire and shardless and bloodbraid :)) I usually use Deathrite to chump block for a few turns in that case.

Playing a TNN of your own is much better.

As stated above I use Jace against combo and TNN doesnt help me there.

Jace only really shines against control and those matchups are by far our best ones.

Agree that we have better matchup against control, but I sometimes lose game 1 and go to time against control. 3 Jace main makes me win game 1 and go to time instead.

I prefer cards like Thoughtseize, Duress, and Cabal Therapy to soft counters simply because they cascade into pretty well.

I tried that and concluded differently, that soft counters were better. I don't really cascade a lot in those matchups anyway. Also I found that when playing discard I needed to skew my manabase more towards black which made me more wasteland vulnerable.

Against combo decks we get to side out BBE but Shardless has to stay for the blue count, therefore cascades will occur. Having a different angle of disruption is also greatly beneficial.

Against combo I usually side out the following, with slight variances depending on which combo deck:

3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
2x Engineered Explosives

Ooze is indeed great but it isn't always better than Goyf. Ooze isn't nearly as good as Goyf in the early stages and requires an important mana investment before reaching board superiority. You cannot slam down an Ooze on T2-3 and expect it to live past a Bolt. I am all for the inclusion of 1-2 Ooze or a SB Ooze to be brought in certain matchups but I disagree on dismissing Goyfs altogether.

As much as I agree with you and would like to play Goyf, I cannot find a less optimal card than him to take out of the deck. I guess you would say Jace or EE, but I've already made my argument regarding those.