LED and Spell Pierce

[Kl'rt]

Hi All,

The other day last week, I was watching Canadian Thresh vs ANT, and saw this:
- ANT player has LED in play and plays Burning Wish; holds priority.
- ANT player Breaks LED in response to his own Burning Wish.
- Thresh player Spell Pierces ANT player's Burning Wish with the LED ability on the stack. Thresh player said that since the LED ability is still on the stack, ANT player doesn't have the mana from the LED yet to pay for Thresh player's Spell Pierce on the Burning Wish.

At first, I thought there was nothing wrong with this. It made sense to me, since a Dark Ritual or a Cabal Ritual can be countered. These spells don't make mana at faster than instant speed after all...

After some searching, I'm thinking I was wrong and that ANT player would have had the mana from the LED before Thresh player got priority to Spell Pierce the Burning Wish, since LED's ability, being a mana ability, is special that way.

Can someone please clarify what is correct here? And maybe offer some rule references to this?

[RJM]

Directly from the gatherer rules clarifications:

"The ability is a mana ability, so it is activated and resolves as a mana ability, but it can only be activated at times when you can cast an Instant. Yes, this is a bit weird."

Link. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3255)

[cdr]

A mana ability is any ability that adds mana to your mana pool (and doesn't target and isn't a planeswalker ability). Mana abilities do not use the stack.

Does LED add mana to your mana pool? Yes it does, so it's a mana ability and does not use the stack.

605.1. Some activated abilities and some triggered abilities are mana abilities, which are subject to special rules. Only abilities that meet either of the following two sets of criteria are mana abilities, regardless of what other effects they may generate or what timing restrictions (such as "Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant") they may have.

605.1a. An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets three criteria: it doesn't have a target, it could put mana into a player's mana pool when it resolves, and it's not a loyalty ability. (See rule 606, "Loyalty Abilities.")

605.1b. A triggered ability without a target that triggers from activating a mana ability and could put mana into a player's mana pool when it resolves is a mana ability.


405.6c. Mana abilities resolve immediately. If a mana ability both produces mana and has another effect, the mana is produced and the other effect happens immediately. If a player had priority before a mana ability was activated, that player gets priority after it resolves.

[lordofthepit]

A mana ability is any ability that adds mana to your mana pool. Mana abilities do not use the stack.[/font]

I was under the impression that Koth of the Hammer's -2 ability, Carpet of Flowers' triggered ability, and Deathrite Shaman's first ability were not mana abilities despite meeting this definition. Am I incorrect?

[Tammit67]

I was under the impression that Koth of the Hammer's -2 ability, Carpet of Flowers' triggered ability, and Deathrite Shaman's first ability were not mana abilities despite meeting this definition. Am I incorrect?

They fail to meet the definition CDR posted because Koth is a loyalty ability, and Carpet of flowers/Deathrite shaman involve targeting.

Both of which CDR has listed in his cut/paste from the Comprehensive rules

[cdr]

I was under the impression that Koth of the Hammer's -2 ability, Carpet of Flowers' triggered ability, and Deathrite Shaman's first ability were not mana abilities despite meeting this definition. Am I incorrect?

I left out the two rare exceptions to what's a mana ability in my short answer - abilities that target or are a loyalty ability can't be mana abilities.

[lordofthepit]

They fail to meet the definition CDR posted because Koth is a loyalty ability, and Carpet of flowers/Deathrite shaman involve targeting.

Both of which CDR has listed in his cut/paste from the Comprehensive rules


I left out the two rare exceptions to what's a mana ability in my short answer - abilities that target or are a loyalty ability can't be mana abilities.

Thanks. I got lazy and just skipped it, my bad. :mad:

[ahg113]

Another hypothetical...

Opponent cast Dark Ritual. Can I play a response- such as counter, or chant?

Rite of Flame, that's a mana source...? No target, not planeswalker ability. So, this doesn't use the stack?

Cheers,
these answers gave me more questions

[lochlan]

Another hypothetical...

Opponent cast Dark Ritual. Can I play a response- such as counter, or chant?

Rite of Flame, that's a mana source...? No target, not planeswalker ability. So, this doesn't use the stack?

Cheers,
these answers gave me more questions

Those are spells, not abilities.

[ahg113]

Correct, and thank you. Right answer, was obvious answer, to bad question.

[Malchar]

Correct, and thank you. Right answer, was obvious answer, to bad question.

Your confusion is justified considering that some dark rituals say "mana source" on them.
http://magiccards.info/mr/en/14.html

[Koby]

Your confusion is justified considering that some dark rituals say "mana source" on them.
http://magiccards.info/mr/en/14.html

And at this time, they were uncounterable.
However, they have since been returned to Instant/Sorcery types, and must resolve to get the mana.