Archetype Combo-Control

[catmint]

Since I play legacy the deck coming closest to this was Natural Order RUG, which was basically an aggro-control deck with a “combo finish” in the sense of a super-strong 4 mana creature. Now, I guess what comes closest is if a Nic Fit player chooses to finish off with a combo….

I would be interested in why you think this archetype has not really made a breakthrough and if return to ravnica will change something.

For reference:

Carstens UW Counterbalance Rest in Peace combo:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24904-Eternal-Europe-Impressions-From-The-City.html

Doomsday combo/control
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24732-Doomsday-Combo-Control

[Lemnear]

If i should draw parallels from Vintage in which Combo-Control is a pretty common playstyle since the printing of urza's saga I would guess that in Vintage combo's are more Compact/redundant than in Legacy. Yawgmoth's will and artifact mana are Format staples anyways and just adding tendrils of agony to turn Will into a win condition is fairly easy. Same with gush Decks adding EtW.

Legacy lacks a) Single cards that turn a decks gameplan and b) cards that Support the Control and the combo aspect at the same Time (moxen). Both however do exist but not for a reasonable mana cost. In Legacy History turning from control to aggro was always more reasonable priced/more successful than Control->combo (Same was true in Vintage before the printing of cards/mechanics like Y.Will or storm; see "Keeper")

Therefore the closest we have to that in Legacy is doomsday but the necessary dark Rituals and the Need to draw both cards Ruin any Concept of "Switch on demand".

If doomsday would be UUU and Instant it would define a Combo-control Deck in Legacy for sure. I can imagine similar with a "Blue" dark ritual.

[TkDodo]

Don't forget Vault->Key or Tinker->Bot in Vintage. These combos are just super compact, needing only one or two slots in the deck, yet allowing an almost instant win. They can go in whatever control deck you are playing.

Legacy really lacks one of those super efficient combos. I used to play a Painter Stone Control deck (before all those Emrakuls ruined it), which allowed to play REB maindeck alongside CB, and it also had the 'oops, I win button'. Painter itself was also an ok defensive creature. Problem is, neither of those parts does enough on its own.
UW are definitely the most controllish colors, so getting a finishing combo into this deck would be very nice. Rest in Peace, Energy Field and Helm sounds very nice, because I think Rest in Peace is the first card that does a lot in many matchups on its own. Apart from owning Dredge and Reanimator G1, it hoses Goyfs, Knights, Mongeese and Snapcasters (and whatever does not come to my mind right now). It's also creatureless, so it blanks a lot of spells in many decks (7-8 in Miracle Control alone!). Energy Field can also be pretty good alone against aggro decks until you stabilize, so I will definitely try it out.

Maybe its just not good enough, but Intuition -> Unburial Rites, Gigapede, (Fatty of your choice) would also be a combo that goes well into UW control. I haven't seen a build that impressed me so far (or had the time to brew myself), but I think this is as close as it gets: It only dilute your deck with 3 bad cards (although they have to be in your deck when you cast Intuition), because I would consider Intuition good enough on its own.

[Lemnear]

Don't forget Vault->Key or Tinker->Bot in Vintage. These combos are just super compact, needing only one or two slots in the deck, yet allowing an almost instant win. They can go in whatever control deck you are playing.

Legacy really lacks one of those super efficient combos. I used to play a Painter Stone Control deck (before all those Emrakuls ruined it), which allowed to play REB maindeck alongside CB, and it also had the 'oops, I win button'. Painter itself was also an ok defensive creature. Problem is, neither of those parts does enough on its own.
UW are definitely the most controllish colors, so getting a finishing combo into this deck would be very nice. Rest in Peace, Energy Field and Helm sounds very nice, because I think Rest in Peace is the first card that does a lot in many matchups on its own. Apart from owning Dredge and Reanimator G1, it hoses Goyfs, Knights, Mongeese and Snapcasters (and whatever does not come to my mind right now). It's also creatureless, so it blanks a lot of spells in many decks (7-8 in Miracle Control alone!). Energy Field can also be pretty good alone against aggro decks until you stabilize, so I will definitely try it out.

Maybe its just not good enough, but Intuition -> Unburial Rites, Gigapede, (Fatty of your choice) would also be a combo that goes well into UW control. I haven't seen a build that impressed me so far (or had the time to brew myself), but I think this is as close as it gets: It only dilute your deck with 3 bad cards (although they have to be in your deck when you cast Intuition), because I would consider Intuition good enough on its own.

Timekey is a 2 Card combo With Neither piece being relevant for it's own. i didn't include for that reasons, but I agree that I should have named it especially because it's blue ... erm ... colorless, unlike any other combo

Tinker isn't really a Combo imo. It's much more like a 11/11 One-Hit creature for 2U which requires you to have a dead draw in your 60. However, the Option to Tutor with it for either piece of timekey too is the Kind of redundancy i was Talking about.

Rest in piece + Energy field isn't Worth it imo. 2-Card combo which only creates a softlock in 2 different colors which is miserable in multiples is far inferior to Panter-Stone.

While at it: painter Stone is still a nice deck but I ever hated it that the deck needs to have a fragile artifact creature in Play to work efficient against anything other than Blue control. Had bad experiences against Maverick-style Decks or counterbalance in the past du-oh :/

Intuition/Gifts is pretty Slow without artifact acceleration and if you get it going in Legacy you'll likely want to add tools like Life from the loam for additional lands/wastelands then add raven's Crime for disruption then add Academy ruins+explosives or worm harvest for Board Control and end up with a whole different deck ... happens to me every time I Play around with those cards, maybe you have more discipline ;D

[kiblast]

Clearly you are forgetting the best control-combo deck in legacy: Aluren :P
Btw, the Recwith / Therapy+Probe+Repeal version is doing nicely lately.

[(nameless one)]

Quinn was a great control-combo deck. It's main goal is to have board control then assemble the Painter-Stone combo with the help of Enlightened Tutor. The tutor is great to in finding bombs that will dictate the board state. Unfortunately, it was weak in controlling the stack, making it vulnerable to stack/spell-based combo and control.

I can see it come back with RIP/Helm combo. Rest in Peace actually does something by itself (unlike Painter's Servant or Grindstone). Arguably, Helm of Obedience suffers from the same problem but having it in minimal numbers might help (with the help of E-Tutor).

Also, the deck itself doesn't rely on the graveyard, so Rest in Peace is somehow "one-sided". It also has game against a meta that doesn't have Storm-based combo. Though it's other bad matchup is CounterTop-based control deck as a lot of its key pieces are on the lower converted mana casting curve.

[joemauer]

Combo Control decks aren't popular in Legacy because it is easier and more efficient to win with Jace rather than any combos available in Legacy.

[metamet]

Show and Tell seems about as close as we can get while still having a full permissions suite.

[Lemnear]

Show and Tell seems about as close as we can get while still having a full permissions suite.

I always had the impression that show&tells gameplan was to drop a fatty into play asap... /sarcasm

Force of Will doesn't make a Control deck alone

[TkDodo]

I always had the impression that show&tells gameplan was to drop a fatty into play asap... /sarcasm

Force of Will doesn't make a Control deck alone

My thoughts exactly. S&T plays nothing like a control deck.


Combo Control decks aren't popular in Legacy because it is easier and more efficient to win with Jace rather than any combos available in Legacy.

I wouldn't necessarily say so. If you are playing a control/combo deck against an aggro deck for instance, the control aspect of your deck helps you survive long enough to get the combo out and just win. It doesn't matter that you right now can't handle that Delver or whatever if you can just ignore it by going bigger with your combo. You can never do that with Jace, you always need to handle their board first (not that I wouldn't play Jace in a control/combo deck). So you are better equipped against aggro than normal control while not giving up much against combo decks. And free wins are always good against decks that can't interact with the stack, all you need is one combo piece, a tutor and maybe a force to "just win" in T5 or so (with Helm combo for instance). Not that it's your primary goal, but it's nice to have nevertheless.

Maybe some eot Entreat the Angel tokens into lethal are the best we currently have as a one card combo finish for control decks, but its not like you could ignore everything they do and just win regardless of their bordstate (like Helm combo would).

[Gui]

My thoughts exactly. S&T plays nothing like a control deck.

I'll go ahead and enter this one, although I know it's highly subjective, I believe this is why you call it combo-control. It shouldn't play as a control deck, but rather, play as a control deck until you land your own combo. This is exactly what S&T does, and actually its control suite is strong enough to face combo decks, so I guess it's a good definition for it.

That's a subjective view, but as far as I am concerned about it, to know that it can play controlish against your combo is something that will help you to win games, so this is valid enough.

[Lemnear]

Show and Tell plays it's counters only to protect it's own combo Not to slow opponents development. It doesn't trade threat vs. Protection until Opponent is bleed Out and Turn the Tide with a combo but does the Opposite: It ignores the opponent until the Combo pieces are gathered.

There is a conceptional difference between both or every TPS (Vintage; Duress and FoW), Pitch Long (Vintage; FoW and Misdirection) or TES (Legacy; Duress, Cabal therapy/chant/silence) would qualify as Control-deck.

[apistat_commander]

The problem with combo-control is that on a basic level both halves of the deck are trying to accomplish different goals. Combo decks sacrifice flexibility for the sake of power while control decks are able to answer a wide variety of decks without giving up too much against any single archetype. Once you try to jam those competing interests into a deck you start to get problems. Do you dig for answers or combo pieces with your cantrips/tutors? You also end up with awkward hands where you have too many combo pieces and you need to play the control role or vice versa.

One of the most important qualities in a Legacy deck is consistency. All of the decks that are format regulars can consistently execute their gameplan because they get to run 4 of everything and have access to numerous cards that fill the same role. Combo control could possibly have that consistency, but nothing that has been brewed yet has hit the consistency threshold necessary to become a true competitor.

[PunkRocker1134]

I think the closest we see to combo-control in legacy are decks like candle-less Spiral Tide, and Solidarity (in certain versions). Since these decks are slower combo decks, the idea is to "control" the game long enough to combo out, mainly through countermagic. That's really the only way these decks can function, because of their speed. The issue is finding a balance between the control elements and the combo package itself. In more controlling Solidarity decks this is seen through countermagic that isn't necessarily dead once you combo out, the best example being Remand. Also, this is done with cards like Snap. Solidarity isn't exactly tier 1 though, so maybe the point is mute.

A control deck with a combo win-con doesn't really feel like combo-control to me. I've always seen combo-control as a deck whose goal is to control the game long enough to win with said combo, without actually stabilizing most of the time, where as a control deck with a combo win-con establishes control, stabilizes, then mops up with a combo instead of jace or something of the sort. Its the difference between like Drain Tendrils in vintage and Quinn in legacy, one never stabilizes and just kills you, while one stabilizes then kills you at its own leisure. It just happens to do it with Painter-grindstone.

edit:
To address apistat_commander's point real fast, Its doesn't have to be an issue. Your control and combo packages just need to overlap to some degree. I like the example of Solidarity, mainly because I know the deck fairly well. Having bounce like snap and countermagic like remand, that also double as combo pieces, really helps the deck archetype with consistency. That is the biggest issue with combo-control right now though, flexible pieces. The most powerful of either end, combo or control, usually does not work well with the other. Countermagic is generally the best way to do this though, since it also protects your combo while being able to establish a pseudo-control.

[alderon666]

Helm of Obedience is actually OK against Show and Tell and Reanimator. It can actually get you a big creature if you're lucky enough.

Just imagine how hilarious:
Opp goes Show and Tell putting Griselbrand in play. You put Helm of Obedience, tap it for X=3 or something like that. Hit an Emrakul and win.


The thing about combo control is that you need 3 things:
- the combo cards can't be useless alone
- the combo must be compact
- the combo need to win when assembled

Some people had sucess with Thopter Foundry in a control shell. But that combo had the problems of being easily hateable (grave hate and artifact hate) and not winning on the spot (you could "go off" and still be stormed for 40 next turn). Painter Servant decks went the same way, but most versions tried to be more combo than control using LED and REBs mostly against counters.

I think the real problem is that you can't have answers for everything in Legacy, much less if you're trying to stick a combo inside your control deck. Add tutors to that and the amount of non-control cards just increases. Countermagia used to be the end all answer to everything, but not even that holds true today. Just imagine getting your RIP hit by Abrupt Decay in response to the Helm activation... it's just devastating and there's close to nothing you can do about it.

[Bahamuth]

The definition of Combo-Control for me is that it is advantageous for the player when the game goes longer. As far as I know, the only decks in Legacy that do that are Solidarity and DDFT.

[theBloody]

Clearly you are forgetting the best control-combo deck in legacy: Aluren :P

cut

This. Also so much fun. Only problem I can see is super expensive recruiters.

[morgan_coke]

I think Valakut/Scapeshift/Duals is probably the closest legacy has. It just requires some changes to the manabase and a commitment to both red and green. It's a little clunky since ideally it's a 4c RUG + B or W, but you get sweepers in red, recurring removal like punishing grove, an instant win button once you hit seven - eight lands, and a very large number of options for control elements since the only slots your combo takes up are in the manabase plus 2-4 scapeshifts.

EDIT: as an example, think of a miracle control style shell, - entreat the angels or some such nonsense, + scapeshift, and with a modified manabase.

[catmint]

Combo Control decks aren't popular in Legacy because it is easier and more efficient to win with Jace rather than any combos available in Legacy.

That is indeed a very good argument. The disadvantage is probably that if you do not run some form of other wincondition you need to jace ultimate after you brainstormed into oblivion. One consideration is surely the limited time, but as TKdodo said you need “full” board control first before you can finish with the 1 card combo Jace. Plus, Jace can also be answered by a variety of spells.

The way I understand combo control is that you really have the ability of gaining control and then finishing with “oops I win”, but you also have the option of winning fast with the right draw. I think RIP/Helm could become the third UW based Tier control deck next to Miracles and Stoneblade, because it does look like an upgrade to thopters. There are certainly enough people giving it a try at least. :smile:

[Rico Suave]

The very first real control/combo hybrid in Vintage was Control Slaver, which could very easily play a control game in it for the long grind but was also capable of going nuts and ending the game on the spot. Keep in mind this is a very rare thing outside of Vintage, which has the end-game power cards, acceleration, and tutoring necessary to facilitate a combo win with minimal drawbacks.

The reason Control Slaver was able to do this was due to a few key cards:
1) Tinker
2) Yawgmoth's Will
3) Goblin Welder
4) Mindslaver

All of the above cards are perfectly capable of combo'ing out for a giant win from nowhere, however it's also worth noting that all of the above cards (sans Mindslaver) are quite capable of winning a small victory as well. And even Slaver can win a number of games on its own through normal casting, albeit in a rather clunky fashion.

What is the point here? None of these cards are bad even if you aren't able to combo out. This is where Legacy control/combo hybrids fail. Tinker can find a fatty or a Mindslaver to end the game in grand fashion, however it can also be used to find Black Lotus (to set up Will) or even something as simple as Triskelion to ping a utility creature. Will is often going to end the game on the spot, but I've also used it to do simple things like replay a land and one spell which got me back into a game I would not have otherwise been able to fight. Goblin Welder, aside from doing stupid things with artifacts and Thirst for Knowledge, is also capable of simple things to get you ahead - generating mana, messing with the opponent's artifacts, playing combat tricks, etc. And Mindslaver is a combo card, believe it or not, however it's more of a self-contained "giant spell" combo card much like Obliterate before it (Turbo-Haups) and Mind's Desire after it.

At anyrate, the key is to find a combination of brute power, flexibility, and multi-purpose use in a certain set of cards. I don't think that is available in Legacy. The closest thing I can think of is Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle, where at least the Stifle is good on its own, but even then it's difficult to get this to work because in Vintage you lose to spells however in Legacy you still need to work through the board in order to win.

[Smmenen]

The very first real control/combo hybrid in Vintage was Control Slaver,

That's definitely not true. Gush-based Psychatog decks preceded Control Slaver by a year, and comboed out by Wishing for Berserk.

[Amon Amarth]

That's definitely not true. Gush-based Psychatog decks preceded Control Slaver by a year, and comboed out by Wishing for Berserk.

Wasn't that, like, Aggro/Combo/Control?

[Smmenen]

I'm talking this one: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=4610

That's the first Control-Combo deck in Vintage, not Control Slaver.

[Rico Suave]

Well, if you want to get technical, we could go back further in time to the 90's and talk about those control/combo decks too.