The Long Term future of this format...

[Bryant Cook]

- I'm not sure which is more amusing: the denial about Legacy's slow death over the course of the next 3-5 years (give or take a year) just because of the fallacy that because it's healthy now it will be healthy later, or the fact that only "grown up men" play Legacy and the implication that playing other formats is not "manly" enough even though all the formats are still Magic: The Gathering cards, which could be argued is still a kids card game.

:laugh:

Not that I agree with Hollywood, but when I read his post my thought process was that Legacy was a Man's game due to price/card availability not age.

[Michael Keller]

- I'm not sure which is more amusing: the denial about Legacy's slow death over the course of the next 3-5 years (give or take a year) just because of the fallacy that because it's healthy now it will be healthy later, or the fact that only "grown up men" play Legacy and the implication that playing other formats is not "manly" enough even though all the formats are still Magic: The Gathering cards, which could be argued is still a kids card game.

:laugh:

I stand by my comment 100%. That's all from me. I don't even care.

[Richard Cheese]

I play Legacy because it's the only format where I'm allowed to shuffle with my beard while I pack my pipe.

Actually new idea: Wizards lifts the ban on alcoholic beverages at Legacy events. It becomes the format played after the FNM crowd has gone to bed and the shades have been drawn. Politicians borrow Forces so they can mingle with power players and social elite. Star City cultivates a team of nationally-renowned bartenders, moves the Legacy start time to Friday night at 8pm, black tie required.

[FieryBalrog]

I play Legacy because it's the only format where I'm allowed to shuffle with my beard while I pack my pipe.

Actually new idea: Wizards lifts the ban on alcoholic beverages at Legacy events. It becomes the format played after the FNM crowd has gone to bed and the shades have been drawn. Politicians borrow Forces so they can mingle with power players and social elite. Star City cultivates a team of nationally-renowned bartenders, moves the Legacy start time to Friday night at 8pm, black tie required.

I like this idea.

[walker]

I think more people playing magic = more people playing legacy.

@ the people who must be so vocal about legacy dying- can you shut up about it? Do you want a gold star for being right? If we agree with you will it cool your rage? If you're so scared of losing money on your cards can you just sell them quietly? Can you please leave and never come back?

I'm pretty sure no one who enjoys playing legacy can possibly get anything from this kind of conversation.

[sdematt]

Actually new idea: Wizards lifts the ban on alcoholic beverages at Legacy events. It becomes the format played after the FNM crowd has gone to bed and the shades have been drawn. Politicians borrow Forces so they can mingle with power players and social elite. Star City cultivates a team of nationally-renowned bartenders, moves the Legacy start time to Friday night at 8pm, black tie required.

This is how the game is meant to be played.

-Matt

[Koby]

I play Legacy because it's the only format where I'm allowed to shuffle with my beard while I pack my pipe.

Actually new idea: Wizards lifts the ban on alcoholic beverages at Legacy events. It becomes the format played after the FNM crowd has gone to bed and the shades have been drawn. Politicians borrow Forces so they can mingle with power players and social elite. Star City cultivates a team of nationally-renowned bartenders, moves the Legacy start time to Friday night at 8pm, black tie required.

As long as we are allowed to use Chimney Imps as scotch-glass coasters, I'm game.

[sdematt]

As long as you actually meant Chimney Pimps, then yes.

-Matt

[Fossil4182]

This is mostly in response to the announcement of Modern Masters. In the short term, this helps Legacy as the barrier to entry drops a substantial amount if people do not have to pay absurd prices for some of the format staples. The three primary things that hamper Legacy's growth as a format are: card availability, price, and support from Wizards of the Coast. This announcement alleviates two of those issues (card availability and price) even if it doesn't solve those issues entirely.

Support from WotC is the most influential factor hampering Legacy because it in many ways controls the other two factors. It has been made clear on numerous occasions that WotC is not focusing on supporting Legacy mostly due to the Reserved List making support impossible (the real culprit is the inability to reprint the dual lands). Therefore long term, Modern Masters will hurt Legacy. I would guess that some people play Legacy because of the particular cards and strategies (I enjoy casting Doomsday, Force of Will and Brainstorm etc). However, I believe a large reason people enjoy Legacy is because once cards are acquired, the cards maintain value and competitiveness over time. For example, if I really enjoy playing Combo then I can invest in the initial deck and make minor purchases as new cards come out which help the deck. For me, this is much more appealing than Standard where I have to worry every few set releases about my $40 Bonefire of the Damned becoming a $5 Mythic when it rotates. Modern opens up an avenue for current players that would like an alternative to Standard but do not want to drop the cash for Legacy cards.

After Gatecrash is released, one could feasibly purchase a playset of all the shocklands for between $350 - $500. With the advent of Modern Masters rereleasing the other expensive cards in the format, one could conceivably own most of the Modern staples for $1,200 which is just a bit more than owning playsets of the four blue dual lands! That model will be much more appealing to people over the next few years given the relative price to play eternal Magic. It hasn't happened yet, but my suspicion is that the release of Return to Ravnica and Modern Masters will cause a ground swell of support for Modern. This support will reach a tipping point (probably in the next 12 - 18 months), at which time Modern overtakes Legacy as the dominate eternal format.

As has been mentioned before, the most noticeable event will be when SCG switches the day two event to Modern. The SCG switch is critical for two reasons. First, it will be in part due to the popularity and demand for Modern events. Second and most importantly, it will signal that Modern is more profitable than Legacy. SCG didn't support Legacy events because there was an outpouring of community support for circuit Legacy events. Make no mistake, SCG endorses Legacy because it is a cash cow; they will pay absurd buy prices because they can flip the cards at a good margin fairly quickly. This is important because in many ways, the "Modern Age" of Legacy is due in large part to SCG's ability to make money off the format. When Modern becomes popular enough that SCG can make more money running Modern events than Legacy, it will switch the day two event.

I don't think Legacy will ever "die" but it will go the way of Vintage over the next few years. It will become a regional format with dedicated pockets of support (at least State side). Legacy, unfortunately, will never be more popular than it is right now. Therefore, I'm moving to the EU to play Legacy and Vintage :-P

[kkoie]

As I see it, you can give any amount of incentive for T2 players to start playing Legacy. When they see how much it costs to buy into the format, they are just running away.

In my opinion, any Standard Player that balks at investment of getting into Legacy needs to break out a calculator and actually add up the dollars spent playing any type of competative Standard deck over an extended period of time. Standard is by far much more expensive to maintain. Why else would wizards support it over all the other formats so much!?

[apistat_commander]

This is why I have no interest in playing Modern and why Legacy has a future:

Ancient Tomb
Badlands
Bayou
City of Traitors
Gaea's Cradle
Karakas
Maze of Ith
Mishra's Factory
Plateau
Rishadan Port
Savannah
Scrubland
Serra's Sanctum
Taiga
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tropical Island
Tundra
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Wasteland
Candelabra of Tawnos
Mox Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top (lol)
Smokestack
Choke
Natural Order
Nimble Mongoose
Scavenging Ooze
Sylvan Library
Veteran Explorer
Burning Wish
Chain Lightning
Fireblast
Gamble
Goblin Welder
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
Rite of Flame (lol)
Price of Progress
Sulfuric Vortex
Academy Rector
Armaggedon
Enlightened Tutor
Humility
Mother of Runes
Swords to Plowshares
Brainstorm
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast
Cunning Wish
Daze
Force of Will
Intuition
Meditate
Show and Tell
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (lol)
Ponder (lol)
Stifle
Time Spiral
The Abyss
Cabal Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Doomsday
Hymn to Tourach
Nethervoid
Reanimate
Recurring Nightmare
Sinkhole
Tendrils of Agony
Fire//Ice
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate

I am sure that I missed a ton of good cards. The point is that Legacy offers the most diverse cardpool of any eternal format, and Modern will not rival it anytime soon. This card pool means that for every player you can find a deck that fits your interest and play style. Wizards current design philosophy means that you just don't get the same strategic variety that is created by having a plethora of very powerful cards to choose from. There isn't anything wrong with jamming creatures, but having options to interact on different axes makes the game much more interesting and vibrant.

[TeenieBopper]

I play Legacy because it's the only format where I'm allowed to shuffle with my beard while I pack my pipe.

Actually new idea: Wizards lifts the ban on alcoholic beverages at Legacy events. It becomes the format played after the FNM crowd has gone to bed and the shades have been drawn. Politicians borrow Forces so they can mingle with power players and social elite. Star City cultivates a team of nationally-renowned bartenders, moves the Legacy start time to Friday night at 8pm, black tie required.

As much as Legacy sucks, I can totally get behind this idea.

[Richard Cheese]

As long as we are allowed to use Chimney Imps as scotch-glass coasters, I'm game.

Legacy is the new Baccarat?

[Lord Seth]

In my opinion, any Standard Player that balks at investment of getting into Legacy needs to break out a calculator and actually add up the dollars spent playing any type of competative Standard deck over an extended period of time. Standard is by far much more expensive to maintain.Key words. Even if over several years it's more expensive, you don't have to spend as much money at once. You might as well say that anyone who pays for something (e.g. house, car) in installments is being dumb because they'd pay less if they paid for everything immediately.

Plus if you draft you can get relevant cards.


Why else would wizards support it over all the other formats so much!?Because the foundation of Standard is the most recent sets, meaning that it will lead to booster pack sales far more than any other Constructed format (even if you buy your cards individually, they came out of Booster packs which are making them money in the present rather than in the past). It's also far more newbie-friendly because new players will likely be having cards from the most recent sets anyway.

[dunk]

Humphrey and I speculated in the past about a possible paper Magic Master's Edition, and now there it is... for modern though. If it's the anticipated cashcow for them there is a slim chance that they might do a Legacy Master's ( ok, more likely EDH Master's ). You know, the long anticipated 14.99$ pack including chase Mythics like Deed, Wasteland, Force, Sylvan Library, Karakas, and some modern banned stuff ( SFM, Bitterblossom, Sensei's Top etc ).

[frogczar]

This is why I have no interest in playing Modern and why Legacy has a future:

Ancient Tomb
Badlands
Bayou
City of Traitors
Gaea's Cradle
Karakas
Maze of Ith
Mishra's Factory
Plateau
Rishadan Port
Savannah
Scrubland
Serra's Sanctum
Taiga
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tropical Island
Tundra
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Wasteland
Candelabra of Tawnos
Mox Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top (lol)
Smokestack
Choke
Natural Order
Nimble Mongoose
Scavenging Ooze
Sylvan Library
Veteran Explorer
Burning Wish
Chain Lightning
Fireblast
Gamble
Goblin Welder
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
Rite of Flame (lol)
Price of Progress
Sulfuric Vortex
Academy Rector
Armaggedon
Enlightened Tutor
Humility
Mother of Runes
Swords to Plowshares
Brainstorm
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast
Cunning Wish
Daze
Force of Will
Intuition
Meditate
Show and Tell
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (lol)
Ponder (lol)
Stifle
Time Spiral
The Abyss
Cabal Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Doomsday
Hymn to Tourach
Nethervoid
Reanimate
Recurring Nightmare
Sinkhole
Tendrils of Agony
Fire//Ice
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate

I am sure that I missed a ton of good cards. The point is that Legacy offers the most diverse cardpool of any eternal format, and Modern will not rival it anytime soon. This card pool means that for every player you can find a deck that fits your interest and play style. Wizards current design philosophy means that you just don't get the same strategic variety that is created by having a plethora of very powerful cards to choose from. There isn't anything wrong with jamming creatures, but having options to interact on different axes makes the game much more interesting and vibrant.


This this this!

I've been trying to port my decks from Legacy to Modern and black is just so screwed out of the format. No Hymn, no Sinkhole. No Pox! Land Destruction in general is awful, so many strategies are not available.... it would make me sad if Modern somehow overtook Legacy as the eternal format for old players like myself.

-Frog

[DarkJester]

This is why I have no interest in playing Modern and why Legacy has a future:

Ancient Tomb
Badlands
Bayou
City of Traitors
Gaea's Cradle
Karakas
Maze of Ith
Mishra's Factory
Plateau
Rishadan Port
Savannah
Scrubland
Serra's Sanctum
Taiga
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tropical Island
Tundra
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Wasteland
Candelabra of Tawnos
Mox Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top (lol)
Smokestack
Choke
Natural Order
Nimble Mongoose
Scavenging Ooze
Sylvan Library
Veteran Explorer
Burning Wish
Chain Lightning
Fireblast
Gamble
Goblin Welder
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
Rite of Flame (lol)
Price of Progress
Sulfuric Vortex
Academy Rector
Armaggedon
Enlightened Tutor
Humility
Mother of Runes
Swords to Plowshares
Brainstorm
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast
Cunning Wish
Daze
Force of Will
Intuition
Meditate
Show and Tell
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (lol)
Ponder (lol)
Stifle
Time Spiral
The Abyss
Cabal Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Doomsday
Hymn to Tourach
Nethervoid
Reanimate
Recurring Nightmare
Sinkhole
Tendrils of Agony
Fire//Ice
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate

I am sure that I missed a ton of good cards. The point is that Legacy offers the most diverse cardpool of any eternal format, and Modern will not rival it anytime soon. This card pool means that for every player you can find a deck that fits your interest and play style. Wizards current design philosophy means that you just don't get the same strategic variety that is created by having a plethora of very powerful cards to choose from. There isn't anything wrong with jamming creatures, but having options to interact on different axes makes the game much more interesting and vibrant.

Yeah, unless i have overlooked it you forgot Bitterblossom (lol)...
But serious: As long as the majority of players still play this format, why should the legacy-scene die? Just keep it alive with your presence at events, and try to show why Legacy is (besides modern, not in a rivalry...sorry for my bad english, hope you understand my intention) an overall attractive and interesting format...
Imo there should be no competition between the two formats, but i see the relevance of the reserved-list, which (based upon which reasons ever, thats not the question) can be a problem for a long term support by WotC, but I seriously can't understand players who try to convice other players to play a different format (aka "Legacy is so expensive, don't play it!", "Vintage, hmmmm, Yawgmoth's win from the Top", "Modern? all cool stuff is banned.") !!!

[lordofthepit]

Yeah, unless i have overlooked it you forgot Bitterblossom (lol)...
But serious: As long as the majority of players still play this format, why should the legacy-scene die? Just keep it alive with your presence at events, and try to show why Legacy is (besides modern, not in a rivalry...sorry for my bad english, hope you understand my intention) an overall attractive and interesting format...
Imo there should be no competition between the two formats, but i see the relevance of the reserved-list, which (based upon which reasons ever, thats not the question) can be a problem for a long term support by WotC, but I seriously can't understand players who try to convice other players to play a different format (aka "Legacy is so expensive, don't play it!", "Vintage, hmmmm, Yawgmoth's win from the Top", "Modern? all cool stuff is banned.") !!!

And Wild Nacatl, Green Sun's Zenith, and Punishing Fire (lololol).

The Legacy scene will never die, but at worst, it may wane in certain regions, especially if SCG discontinues their Legacy Open (unlikely for the foreseeable future). In the meantime, continue to attend events and to support your stores! When I need a card, as long as prices are within reasonable range of competitors, even if slightly more expensive, I will purchase from my local card shops and SCG as long as they hold Legacy events.

[DarkJester]

The thing I wanted to point out is :
We play an eternal format which gets (marginal) less support compared to a new (not worse) format named Modern, so it's up to us (the actual players) to keep it alive. Keep playing Legacy and the supporters (in USA the biggest support should be SCG as far as I know) keep their support, maybe their suppor may vary during the next years but as long as you keep playing, they'll earn their money or staisfy their WE SUPPORT LEGACY-ideals (last case would be the better one imo ;) )

[Koby]

I honestly don't think that any single large MTG retailer would let an opportunity pass on hosting a Legacy tournament series. If nothing else, it creates a market for which to sell cards which are otherwise not usable in WotC-sponsored/fostered formats.

Would Channel Fireball, Troll & Toad, and ABUgames let such an opportunity lapse if SCG were to suddenly depart from the scene?

[Lord Seth]

This is why I have no interest in playing Modern and why Legacy has a future:

<List removed>

I am sure that I missed a ton of good cards.I have a few minor quibbles with the list and a more major quibble. The minor ones first:
1) Choke is Modern legal.
2) You list the dual lands, which should not be included in what you're advocating. Yes, they are not legal in Modern, but your argument is that Legacy has interesting cards that Modern doesn't, which limits things for Modern. The problem is that Modern has the shocklands which serve the exact same purpose. Yes, you have the extra "tapped or 2 life" but you could ban all of the original dual lands in Legacy and it doesn't seem like it's really affect the decks you could construct that much because the shocklands can replace them so easily. Without the dual lands, Canadian Threshold can switch to using Breeding Pools and Steam Vents and play pretty similarly. The loss of, say, Nimble Mongoose, on the other hand, actually makes a real difference in deck construction.

On a more major quibble, I feel it's worth pointing out you can use the same argument for Vintage vs. Legacy. It has a lot of cards Legacy doesn't. Speaking of which...


The point is that Legacy offers the most diverse cardpool of any eternal format, and Modern will not rival it anytime soon.Except, as I just pointed out, Vintage has a more diverse cardpool than Legacy because it allows more cards. Even if a lot of them can only be played as a 1-of, that's definitely more diversity than in Legacy.


There isn't anything wrong with jamming creatures, but having options to interact on different axes makes the game much more interesting and vibrant.Is it worth pointing out that the deck that won the Pro Tour (Modern) had zero creatures?

[Fossil4182]

This is why I have no interest in playing Modern and why Legacy has a future:

Ancient Tomb
Badlands
Bayou
City of Traitors
Gaea's Cradle
Karakas
Maze of Ith
Mishra's Factory
Plateau
Rishadan Port
Savannah
Scrubland
Serra's Sanctum
Taiga
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tropical Island
Tundra
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Wasteland
Candelabra of Tawnos
Mox Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top (lol)
Smokestack
Choke
Natural Order
Nimble Mongoose
Scavenging Ooze
Sylvan Library
Veteran Explorer
Burning Wish
Chain Lightning
Fireblast
Gamble
Goblin Welder
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
Rite of Flame (lol)
Price of Progress
Sulfuric Vortex
Academy Rector
Armaggedon
Enlightened Tutor
Humility
Mother of Runes
Swords to Plowshares
Brainstorm
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast
Cunning Wish
Daze
Force of Will
Intuition
Meditate
Show and Tell
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (lol)
Ponder (lol)
Stifle
Time Spiral
The Abyss
Cabal Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Doomsday
Hymn to Tourach
Nethervoid
Reanimate
Recurring Nightmare
Sinkhole
Tendrils of Agony
Fire//Ice
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate

I am sure that I missed a ton of good cards. The point is that Legacy offers the most diverse cardpool of any eternal format, and Modern will not rival it anytime soon. This card pool means that for every player you can find a deck that fits your interest and play style. Wizards current design philosophy means that you just don't get the same strategic variety that is created by having a plethora of very powerful cards to choose from. There isn't anything wrong with jamming creatures, but having options to interact on different axes makes the game much more interesting and vibrant.

All awesome cards. The dual lands are still the lynch pin of the format. Without easy access to those, its impossible to sustain Legacy. The scarcity and price for those cards will continue to increase until it begins to price players out of the market. Even if Legacy is strong now, the future of the format is rather bleak. Escalating costs along with an aging player base that isn't recruiting younger players. This means at some point Legacy will contract and the decline won't be reversible unless something changes either in terms of card availability or new players. Cool cards that allow players to interact on different axes are fine for older players. However, the reason modern is more creature centric is because the younger player base enjoys that more - hence why modern is designed the way it is. It's hard to sell a format where decks can kill on turns 1-3 with freightning consistency.

[DLifshitz]

However, the reason modern is more creature centric is because the younger player base enjoys that more - hence why modern is designed the way it is. It's hard to sell a format where decks can kill on turns 1-3 with freightning consistency.

Actually, in Modern fast-ish combo decks are currently more successful than really fast combo decks in Legacy. And IMVHO in Modern it's more difficult to hate on combo decks because you don't get FoW and Enlightened Tutor and GSZ toolboxes. In any case, both Legacy and Modern are intended for a segment of the player base who at least acknowledge that there will be good combo decks.

I would hesitate to say that Modern was designed to be creature centric. The more recent sets that make up Modern certainly were, but fortunately the older ones weren't. As for the format itself - do you remember its formative days? It was a bloody mess. They weren't really nudging the format in any specific direction. Instead, when a deck rose above the others, they destroyed it.

[joven]

"We definitely don't want a format that is inaccessible to people, we know it's going to be fun (Modern), it's going to take some time to get them out there but we're doing it."

My take on this was that it's going to take some time to let Legacy get sidetracked by Modern but they made the decision, they created the format and they are going with that.

Sorry, I couldn't read the whole thread. I just want to post my thoughts to the above.

I don't know why the Reserved List is in place and how long it will be. I also have the impression that the cards that are on the Reserved List are chosen pretty randomly.
But I think the only real problem with the Reserved List is the Dual Lands. It was a giant mistake that WotC had led the Duals Lands gone out of print in the mid 90's. I guess I will never understand why they did that, because they are so important for the gameplay and they were also so nicely designed (at least I think so).

Also, I think, Modern is a stupid format, it cuts off magic's history. There are no nice Dual Lands in Modern, currently there are even only the enemy colored Fetch Lands in Modern, although I guess they might reprint the Onslaught Fetch Lands in the near future to make them accessible for modern.

[apistat_commander]

I have a few minor quibbles with the list and a more major quibble. The minor ones first:
1) Choke is Modern legal.

Got me there.


2) You list the dual lands, which should not be included in what you're advocating. Yes, they are not legal in Modern, but your argument is that Legacy has interesting cards that Modern doesn't, which limits things for Modern. The problem is that Modern has the shocklands which serve the exact same purpose. Yes, you have the extra "tapped or 2 life" but you could ban all of the original dual lands in Legacy and it doesn't seem like it's really affect the decks you could construct that much because the shocklands can replace them so easily. Without the dual lands, Canadian Threshold can switch to using Breeding Pools and Steam Vents and play pretty similarly. The loss of, say, Nimble Mongoose, on the other hand, actually makes a real difference in deck construction.

I disagree here. Paying 2 life to untap your Shock is a very real cost and it certainly doesn't have the same feel as fetching original duals. Just because Lightning Bolt is legal in Modern doesn't mean that Chain Lightning shouldn't also be on my list. My point was that not only are these cards useful from a gameplay perspective they are also fun, iconic, and powerful. Modern will simply never see these cards because they will not ever be reprinted in Standard again. That means that the power level of the format had a cap placed on it from day one.


On a more major quibble, I feel it's worth pointing out you can use the same argument for Vintage vs. Legacy. It has a lot of cards Legacy doesn't. Speaking of which...

Except, as I just pointed out, Vintage has a more diverse cardpool than Legacy because it allows more cards. Even if a lot of them can only be played as a 1-of, that's definitely more diversity than in Legacy.

Vintage may have a more diverse cardpool but the format is defined by decks that play the P9, Workshop, or Bazaar. While it technically has more cards available I would argue that it has far fewer viable archetypes. The presence of such powerful cards simply prevents other cards from being played and this is not true of Legacy. Legacy has a lot of really powerful cards available and this does mean that some decks aren't competitive. However there are probably 30+ Tier 1.5-2 decks that could take down a large tournament given the right conditions. This isn't even taking into account whatever people may brew up themselves. There is simply no other format that boasts the same level of power and diversity as Legacy. It would take many, many years for Modern to have a cardpool that would allow the same diversity as Legacy.


Is it worth pointing out that the deck that won the Pro Tour (Modern) had zero creatures?

I don't have anything against Modern. I could see myself picking up the format at some point if they start having regular tournaments in my area. However I just don't understand why everyone is crying that Modern will be the death of Legacy. Yes it is pretty clear that it is going to be the "Eternal" format that WotC will support in the future. I put Eternal in quotations because Modern is simply lacking many of the powerful, iconic cards that define the real Eternal formats. People enjoy the wonky things that having overpowered and probably unbalanced cards enable in a format. WotC designed Modern so that those sorts of cards wouldn't exist in the format. While this appeals to a certain part of the player base there is another, very sizeable, group of individuals who enjoy playing with (and getting blown out by) powerful old cards. Those are the folks that play Legacy, and will continue play Legacy, because no other format offers the same experience.

[Fossil4182]

Actually, in Modern fast-ish combo decks are currently more successful than really fast combo decks in Legacy. And IMVHO in Modern it's more difficult to hate on combo decks because you don't get FoW and Enlightened Tutor and GSZ toolboxes. In any case, both Legacy and Modern are intended for a segment of the player base who at least acknowledge that there will be good combo decks.

I would hesitate to say that Modern was designed to be creature centric. The more recent sets that make up Modern certainly were, but fortunately the older ones weren't. As for the format itself - do you remember its formative days? It was a bloody mess. They weren't really nudging the format in any specific direction. Instead, when a deck rose above the others, they destroyed it.

I can agree that Combo is one of the more dominate strategies in Modern. However unlike Legacy, the DCI has regularly banned cards to shape Modern in a way it hasn't done with Legacy. Also as you've pointed out, recent printings have suggested a shift toward a creature centric Modern. If combo is still persistent, I would expect new printings from WotC or a round of banning from the DCI that address combo's dominance.

With the increased attention as far as product is concerned (RTR and MM), the DCI will do what it can to make sure Modern isn't dominated by combo. Combo and Counter Magic does not skew well with a younger player base. If it did, there would be more viable control and combo with strategies in Standard. Look at recent B&R updates for Standard (or lack there of); the DCI banned Jace and Stoneforge Mystic but didn't ban Bloodbraid Elf. This should give one an inclination as to what kind of direction the game is heading. The power of creatures has risen at a much greater rate than the power of spells in recent years. There has to be a reason for the rise in the power of creatures and a decline in the power of spells. The only logical conclusion I've been able to reach is WotC believes that a game primarily based around creature interaction is more sustainable and marketable than one based around either combo or control. If WotC is trying to primarily market Modern to current Standard players then it would make sense that Modern's direction will correspond with the direction WotC is taking with Standard.

[sdematt]

Legacy is the new Baccarat?

Nothing can be Baccarat, but it can come close. Come to think of it, Legacy Worlds should ALWAYS be held in Monte Carlo...

http://www.popsci.com/files/imagecache/article_image_large/articles/bacc2.jpg

-Matt

[Arianrhod]

I feel that Wizards should give us the same promise that they gave to the collectors for the Reserved List all those years ago, if they want to uphold it. Players should, by and large, always be able to use their cards in a supported format. Magic isn't a collectible that happens to be a game, anymore. It's a game that happens to be collectible, and I don't think that Wizards has done a good job of realizing or supporting that.

Also, I am absolutely terrified of the degree to which we rely on Starcity at the moment. SCG is currently basically substituting for Wizards' lack of Legacy GPs. If SCG moves out of Legacy, for whatever reason, I worry that the format will collapse to Vintage-levels, where you have your little stores here and there that run events, but no wider meta. The language used in the announcement for Modern Masters very much worries me, as it suggests that even though they regard the Reserved List as a huge mistake, they are still unwilling to fix it. At this point, I am concerned that a year from now we may not even have a Legacy format anymore. Remember that next year is Magic's 20th anniversary, so they're probably going to want to make some major changes to the game as a whole.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I feel that Wizards should give us the same promise that they gave to the collectors for the Reserved List all those years ago, if they want to uphold it. Players should, by and large, always be able to use their cards in a supported format. Magic isn't a collectible that happens to be a game, anymore. It's a game that happens to be collectible, and I don't think that Wizards has done a good job of realizing or supporting that.

Also, I am absolutely terrified of the degree to which we rely on Starcity at the moment. SCG is currently basically substituting for Wizards' lack of Legacy GPs. If SCG moves out of Legacy, for whatever reason, I worry that the format will collapse to Vintage-levels, where you have your little stores here and there that run events, but no wider meta. The language used in the announcement for Modern Masters very much worries me, as it suggests that even though they regard the Reserved List as a huge mistake, they are still unwilling to fix it. At this point, I am concerned that a year from now we may not even have a Legacy format anymore. Remember that next year is Magic's 20th anniversary, so they're probably going to want to make some major changes to the game as a whole.

This was extremely depressing :cry:

[Arianrhod]

This was extremely depressing :cry:

How do you think my morning's been >_>

Legacy's all I really play anymore, at least seriously. The Rules Council shit all over EDH with their "casual format" bullshit, so I don't even have that to fall back on anymore. I'm staring basically being forced to quit Magic in the face, and I don't like that feeling at all.

[CorwinB]

I feel that Wizards should give us the same promise that they gave to the collectors for the Reserved List all those years ago, if they want to uphold it. Players should, by and large, always be able to use their cards in a supported format. Magic isn't a collectible that happens to be a game, anymore. It's a game that happens to be collectible, and I don't think that Wizards has done a good job of realizing or supporting that.

Also, I am absolutely terrified of the degree to which we rely on Starcity at the moment. SCG is currently basically substituting for Wizards' lack of Legacy GPs. If SCG moves out of Legacy, for whatever reason, I worry that the format will collapse to Vintage-levels, where you have your little stores here and there that run events, but no wider meta. The language used in the announcement for Modern Masters very much worries me, as it suggests that even though they regard the Reserved List as a huge mistake, they are still unwilling to fix it. At this point, I am concerned that a year from now we may not even have a Legacy format anymore. Remember that next year is Magic's 20th anniversary, so they're probably going to want to make some major changes to the game as a whole.

Europe has a pretty good Legacy (and even Vintage) scene, and there isn't an SCG or equivalent here...

[Stoyrm]

Europe has a pretty good Legacy (and even Vintage) scene, and there isn't an SCG or equivalent here...

Yeah, not so much in Scandinavia. But i went to Barcelona, and they had a legacy tournament with 30 attending each day, then on each weekend they would have more and once a month they'd have a tournament the size of a SCG tournament. But yeah, people buying into legacy as a format is at some point going to be hard, that is when i'm scared for this format. When you have to say no, because there are no other copies left except at 300$ each for a revised dual land or something equally absurd.

[TsumiBand]

Sets like Modern Masters and/or Commander's Arsenal see such limited print runs and goofy price tags that they feel more aimed at the collector than the player IMO. Or, they just can't decide which constituency they should be pleasing more, so they try to do both. Either way, for a guy like me the price tag is just untenable.

If staple reprints were really a solution that Wizards felt would fix whatever catastrophic faults are implicit in Eternal formats, they'd just put them in Core Sets. They're supposed to be 50% reprints anyway, why not just give everybody the means to play all formats via the Core Sets. Print fetchlands one year, shocklands the next, etc etc, throw in some staple removal spells and disruption spells here and there. It would make Legacy players more likely to play Standard b/c their cards are already bought. It would make long-term Standard players more able to trickle down into Modern/Legacy. It doesn't screw anyone over b/c it (sadly) sticks to the Reprint Policy. Standard can still experiment with new methods of mana fixing and removal, because it's Standard, and power creep isn't implicit anymore b/c maybe there's a season of Standard with like, fucking fetchlands and Thoughtseize, so why try and print more broken variants? It'd fix a lot of availability issues, I've never understood why this wasn't the approach to begin with.

[FieryBalrog]

Europe has a pretty good Legacy (and even Vintage) scene, and there isn't an SCG or equivalent here...

Europe also has its population a lot more concentrated. Also the Legacy scene is pretty miserable outside of the Latin countries and Germany. UK/Scandinavia = not so much Legacy.

[Oiolosse]

MtG is just a paper MMO. You gotta grind for that good stuff.

More seriously,
You ppl all freak me out. I've said it before, but I'll have to say it again: if you want to play legacy, then play it. You don't need SCG or any other entity. For fuck's sake, get organized. You are here, so do it locally. Twitter tag, #Htownlegacy. Go to card shops, corral. Don't be so lazy.

Besides, somebody somewhere will flood the market with beautiful looking dupes. Wizards doesn't print currency, okay. Their product can be counterfeited.

[FieryBalrog]

MtG is just a paper MMO. You gotta grind for that good stuff.

More seriously,
You ppl all freak me out. I've said it before, but I'll have to say it again: if you want to play legacy, then play it. You don't need SCG or any other entity. For fuck's sake, get organized. You are here, so do it locally. Twitter tag, #Htownlegacy. Go to card shops, corral. Don't be so lazy.

Besides, somebody somewhere will flood the market with beautiful looking dupes. Wizards doesn't print currency, okay. Their product can be counterfeited.

Doesn't work that well. Counterfeiting Magic is less reward-for-effort ratio than counterfeiting money. The high dollar items, unlike dollar bills, are collectibles and appeal mostly to a niche collector's market with a much greater expertise and a much greater interest in carefully looking over their purchases. If you hand the cashier five twenty-dollar bills, they're barely going to look at them. A hundred dollar bill attracts more scrutiny precisely because it's more worth faking, but still not nearly the kind of scrutiny a $100+ Magic card gets from the kind of people who buy $100 Magic cards.

You still get some fakes, but because of the significant effort of making a really really good fake, most of them tend to be quite shoddy. Easily spotted by anyone who has experience with it, but able to fool enough people to get a few out there.

[Oiolosse]

Doesn't work that well. Counterfeiting Magic is less reward-for-effort ratio than counterfeiting money. The high dollar items, unlike dollar bills, are collectibles and appeal mostly to a niche collector's market with a much greater expertise and a much greater interest in carefully looking over their purchases. If you hand the cashier five twenty-dollar bills, they're barely going to look at them. A hundred dollar bill attracts more scrutiny precisely because it's more worth faking, but still not nearly the kind of scrutiny a $100+ Magic card gets from the kind of people who buy $100 Magic cards.

You still get some fakes, but because of the significant effort of making a really really good fake, most of them tend to be quite shoddy. Easily spotted by anyone who has experience with it, but able to fool enough people to get a few out there.

I am referring to a completely accurate fake. I reckon it can be done. The technology is there. I don't see that you have a basis for it "not being worth it" because the higher dollar cards are scrutinized more. Sure, beta p9, Bazaar, etc. may be. But a cheap playset of duals will sell on ebay with little more investigation than, "is this the same as the picture". Even if the buyer is pertinent, my premise is that these are functional fakes.

[paeng4983]

Just like what happened to vintage, it will slowly die due to price inflation of the cards.

[Finn]

I have tried not to toot at this particular horn, but it is too good a fit. There was a guy back at the birth of the format who warned of this problem.

http://mtgsalvation.com/130-what-next-for-legacy.html

[catmint]

Am I missing something concerning dying of the format?

- Even if there are no GP's,SCG,... as long as people love to play legacy and there are stores/individuals organizing events there will be legacy to play.

- Inflation of price is a problem, but you can't compare it to vintage just because of the much higher number of staples (duals, FoW,...) which are available compared to P9, Workshop,... So as long as these staples are in the hands of people enjyoing to play legacy there will be this critical amount of people showing up for events.

So I understand "dying" in the sense of limited growth due to price issues for starters and wizards pushing modern, but I fail to understand why it should be like vintage where the obvious problem is that there are not enough cards around to make it worth organizing more events and/or people don't enjoy it enough. If people stop playing legacy, some will sell/lend their cards so other people can play (collecting huts this equation to a certain extend of course).

Another factor is the fun: Can't imagine that people suddenly stop enjyoing KoR into powerful lands, brainstorm into fetchland or counting to 10, so new & existing players will be attracted to legacy compared to modern for the same reason that past generations where attracted to legacy compared to extended.
In the worst case scenario if the price becomes too big of an issue, events can be played allowing proxies. But as long as the format is not stuck and these linear budget decks like, elves, burn, affinity, dredge, Pox,... can succeed on any given day, it is in fact not hard to get started in legacy.

My prediction/hope: Plenty of legacy to play in the upcoming years. In my local community in CEE, we ar actually just starting to talk to each other about getting together more to have bigger lecacy events in the future.

[Mr.C]

I have tried not to toot at this particular horn, but it is too good a fit. There was a guy back at the birth of the format who warned of this problem.

http://mtgsalvation.com/130-what-next-for-legacy.html

$20 for a Reset! How absurd!

How times have changed...

Almost looks like Legacy is going to come full circle.

[dunk]

$20 for a Reset! How absurd!

How times have changed...

Almost looks like Legacy is going to come full circle.

7 years later Reset is still $20. I don't see a problem :P

[Gui]

I have tried not to toot at this particular horn, but it is too good a fit. There was a guy back at the birth of the format who warned of this problem.

http://mtgsalvation.com/130-what-next-for-legacy.html

Very good. Finn, you f*ckin' genius.

So, what do you predict for the format now?

[Finn]

I believe I have the solution. This wasn't even hard.


Brackish Mangroves
Land
{this card is blue and green}
Tap: Add u to your mana pool
Tap: Add g to your mana pool
********
Sargasso Sea
Legendary Artifact Land - Forest Island

There. Both are different colors and sub/supertypes from the originals and therefor not protected by the reserved list policy. If both are printed in successive blocks that should significantly lower the dual requirements of decks. You will still want some duals to fetch up, but you could sneak one or more of each in for a variety of reasons. Legacy decks are already kept in check from using too many nonbasics by Wasteland and Price of Progress. I don't know what the deal is like in Modern, but bannings are a perfectly reasonable way to keep Legacy indefinitely afloat IMO.

EDIT: You would need some sort of color hosers in Standard to get the first one printed. It could be a few simple ones but I like it as the primary or secondary focus of the block like Terror was in Mirrodin.

[Jenni]

Actually on tumblr the other day MaRo mentioned something about legacy, I forgot about it until now but it seems appropriate. (Link: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/34102616614/im-really-disapointed-i-play-legacy-i-dont-like-the )

I sent him a recommendation of near-functional reprints for reserve listed staples (eg. Reverberate vs Fork) and something similar Finn's suggestion for new duals (different subtypes/text on dual lands that etb untapped and can be fetched). As well as just actual reprints of non-reserved staples.

Honestly, if people are this concerned about legacy dieing, try to send solutions to people at WotC. I've sent in emails before asking for near-functional reprints, and jsut regular reprints of things like force of will. MaRo says he can't look at actual suggestions for cards, but he can look at requests for a type of card. So, while sending in the examples Finn said won't work, something like "Dual lands with one basic land type instead of two?" as a suggestion could be entirely reasonable.

I'm not saying Spam MaRo's inbox or anything, but, if you want R&D to do something about legacy, try to give them ideas of how to help sustain legacy.

[Stoyrm]

I believe I have the solution. This wasn't even hard.


Brackish Mangroves
Land
{this card is blue and green}
Tap: Add u to your mana pool
Tap: Add g to your mana pool
********
Sargasso Sea
Legendary Artifact Land - Forest Island

There. Both are different colors and sub/supertypes from the originals and therefor not protected by the reserved list policy. If both are printed in successive blocks that should significantly lower the dual requirements of decks. You will still want some duals to fetch up, but you could sneak one or more of each in for a variety of reasons. Legacy decks are already kept in check from using too many nonbasics by Wasteland and Price of Progress. I don't know what the deal is like in Modern, but bannings are a perfectly reasonable way to keep Legacy indefinitely afloat IMO.

EDIT: You would need some sort of color hosers in Standard to get the first one printed. It could be a few simple ones but I like it as the primary or secondary focus of the block like Terror was in Mirrodin.

Also something simple like;

Omgad Blue/Green Dual
Land - Forest Island
You may have this cip tapped, if you do gain a life.

There are so many close to a dual that wouldn't have a big downside so they could keep it up. this could never be printed in standard though. Is it broken? Hell yes, but the original duals are broken as well :P.

[Fizzeler]

In terms of new Duals, besides SNow Duals they could always reprint something like this

Haunted Woods
Land - Forest Swamp

Haunted Woods enters the battlefield tapped unless you control another Forest or Swamp

so dual check lands

[menace13]

I believe I have the solution. This wasn't even hard.


Brackish Mangroves
Land
{this card is blue and green}
Tap: Add u to your mana pool
Tap: Add g to your mana pool
********
.

My lands pitch to FoW....

Yes PLZ!!!

[Fakedylan]

My lands pitch to FoW....

Yes PLZ!!!

It should also read "When Brackish Mangroves ETB Delver of Secrets/Insect thingy get's +4/+4". :wink:

[SaberTooth]

Actually on tumblr the other day MaRo mentioned something about legacy, I forgot about it until now but it seems appropriate. (Link: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/34102616614/im-really-disapointed-i-play-legacy-i-dont-like-the )

I sent him a recommendation of near-functional reprints for reserve listed staples (eg. Reverberate vs Fork) and something similar Finn's suggestion for new duals (different subtypes/text on dual lands that etb untapped and can be fetched). As well as just actual reprints of non-reserved staples.

Honestly, if people are this concerned about legacy dieing, try to send solutions to people at WotC. I've sent in emails before asking for near-functional reprints, and jsut regular reprints of things like force of will. MaRo says he can't look at actual suggestions for cards, but he can look at requests for a type of card. So, while sending in the examples Finn said won't work, something like "Dual lands with one basic land type instead of two?" as a suggestion could be entirely reasonable.

I'm not saying Spam MaRo's inbox or anything, but, if you want R&D to do something about legacy, try to give them ideas of how to help sustain legacy.

that was my question :P

i think that if we ask for answers to legacy, we can save our format

[Hof]

I sincerely wish that the health of the Legacy format was on my list of things to worry about in the long term future.
It would mean that I had very few serious issues to worry about in my life. :)

Wizards were never really good at dictating what formats we should play anyway, so why worry?
Just look at Extended - supported heavily by Wizards for years, how did that work out.

Modern is nothing spectacular. It is not a true eternal format, because cards are banned without good reason (like, for having the original card frame, or for being 3/3 for G).
I have nothing against Modern, I think it is a better 'new card' format than Standard. But I want to play with my cards. All of them. It is my right.

Entry cost barrier has become a problem for Legacy, it is true.
I wouldn't mind if the original 10 duals were restricted to 1 of each. Then I could trade 3/4 of my duals away and get 3 new Legacy players in my area.

[Barook]

Just look at Extended - supported heavily by Wizards for years, how did that work out.
To be fair, Extended mainly died because they raped it to death with the sudden format change that cut a good chunk of the card pool instead of a normal rotation.

[DragoFireheart]

Wizards were never really good at dictating what formats we should play anyway, so why worry?
Just look at Extended - supported heavily by Wizards for years, how did that work out.


WotC screwed it up by changing how the rotation works so it was basically Standard 2.0?

Yeah, you made a very bad point with that example. Ironically, you proved the opposite: WotC DOES in fact help dictate which formats we play.

[Jenni]

WotC screwed it up by changing how the rotation works so it was basically Standard 2.0?

Yeah, you made a very bad point with that example. Ironically, you proved the opposite: WotC DOES in fact help dictate which formats we play.

I think the point was that wizards pushed the format heavily after the rotation change, and it was still pretty much hated by a lot of players.

[Hof]

As far as I can remember (yes I am very old) Extended was somewhat popular when the dual lands were allowed by exception.

After that, the format still saw some play but it was mostly regarded as a 'seasonal' format, and as a means to qualify for other things, and was never established as a major format in itself. At least in my area, opinions may differ elsewhere of course. The major rotation killed it, yes, but the support continued regardless.

Also, Block Constructed anyone?

[TsumiBand]

As long as we're throwing out derpy card suggestions to fix the Reserve List, I want to see a cycle of Murmuring Bosk-like cards. A cycle of lands that are basically

Land - (basic land name here)

Pay 1 life: Add (enemy color) or (enemy color) to your mana pool.

C'mon, that's cool as shit. Fetchable painlands? Honestly, the old painlands are not the worst thing in the world. In many situations, I find them favorable to shocklands if I need to start tapping out early, especially if I can use them for colorless. And eventually, one draws enough basics/other lands to make additional pain a non-issue.

In an ideal world we'd all have a full set of good duals and not need to have this conversation, but that's clearly not the case, so in the interest of experimentation I've found this to be the case. In particular when playing a deck with some lifegain incidentally built in, like Deadguy; derping a couple life off of Vampire Nighthawk is fine for offsetting stupid land damages. No it is not Tier 1, but it's 'fine'. And damn cheap most of the time.

[Koby]

O G-d, Extended is a nightmare of a format. It used to be actually be fun, then it got butchered three years running. Double Standard is actually the worst. I think for a while Extended and Eternal were the only formats that Jace and SFM were not banned back in 2011. That tells you how much thought they still think about Extended.

[Bryant Cook]

Cook’s Kitchen – Modern Masters & Legacy (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/51867/cooks-kitchen-modern-masters-legacy)

[adrock]

Cook’s Kitchen – Modern Masters & Legacy (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/51867/cooks-kitchen-modern-masters-legacy)

This is a pretty realistic look at the health of the format - for no other reason than the vested interest of SCG in the secondary market.

Personally I still believe it is up to the community as a whole, to paraphrase a previous poster wizard's can't tell you which format to play and enjoy.

[.dk]

Well, good news on the SCG front at any rate. Ben Bleiweiss had this to say on twitter half an hour ago:

"SCG has no intention of running Modern Opens. We feel Legacy is a better format, and plan on continuing it in 2013."

:)

[lordofthepit]

Well, good news on the SCG front at any rate. Ben Bleiweiss had this to say on twitter half an hour ago:

"SCG has no intention of running Modern Opens. We feel Legacy is a better format, and plan on continuing it in 2013."

:)

As a result of this announcement, SCG will be the first non-local store I go to for buying Magic products, and I would be willing to pay a slight premium for their superior customer service and commitment to Legacy.

[KobeBryan]

Star city games dropping legacy will be the worst business decision they can make.

Starcity games caters to a secondary market. If they ever drop legacy, what are they going to do with their inventory? The store exists by buying and selling singles. I doubt they make too much money selling packs and boxes.

[DragoFireheart]

Star city games dropping legacy will be the worst business decision they can make.

Starcity games caters to a secondary market. If they ever drop legacy, what are they going to do with their inventory? The store exists by buying and selling singles. I doubt they make too much money selling packs and boxes.

- They will eventually be forced to do so.

[ramanujan]

- They will eventually be forced to do so.

When do you think this will happen? As long as new cards continue to make an impact in he legacy scene, it will not grow stagnant. In my opinion, there are not that many cards that price people out of legacy and most of them are pretty abundant.

All in all, I don't think SCG is going modern any time soon. They have a vested interest in keeping their inventory valuable. Honestly, I bet they have hundreds more duals in the real inventory than what we see as for sale, maybe over a thousand.

[MirrorMask]

I posted this on another thread as well but I find this place to be equally fitting. So here it is:


Lets look at it this way:

If wizards promotes HEAVILY Modern then it will draw all the Modern players to their tournaments and promote the sale of sealed products like modern masters. If these tournaments are much more frequent than lets say 3 times a year then SCG probably won't see much profit in this format as someone else will be dominating the sector(and not just someone random, WIZARDS with worldwide tours!!!), thus they will continue to sanction Legacy tournaments as they already are the biggest player there and maybe have some Modern as well. If wizards does not make very frequent events then I guess there will be enough profit to cause a change of plans. Of course even if SCG stops promoting legacy someone else will. Even with a fixed player base there is a huge profit potential-no one can deny it.

Now something somewhat relevant as I have seen many mentions on various forums (and on this one). The reserved list. Some say it must be abolished and some disagree. I also believe that must be abolished but mass reprints should NEVER happen.

What I believe would be more clever is to calculate the number of the players who want to enter the stagnant (by then) Legacy and how many of them are likely to stay for long in the game. Then calculate those who leave on a yearly basis and never return or return after some years. Then take a look at the decks being played and the price barrier this presents by requiring specific cards to own for a formidable competitive deck. The difference between the actual demand and offer is the number or reprints needed per year. Now, as it is a collectible game the prices should be held at some acceptable level (both from player and vendor perspective) so
reprinting a bit less than the actual extra demand might be a good idea as it keeps the system going.

Regarding the preservation of the reserved list: Some people say that it will affect the prices of highly collectible pieces. True. But not by much. A beta dual is gonna stay a beta dual no matter how many times it gets reprinted. The collectible value of these cards will be the same while only the extra, paying value they have accumulated (and this is the problem)will take some hit- but not too much to cause delirium to neither the collectors nor the players. Also, in this list there are many (85-90% ??) really low value cards. Whats the point of keeping the list then? It has failed as the prices of these are only cents. The list will probably be abolished when there is profit to be made, but certainly not now.

I believe Modern Masters to be the first move towards this direction as making eternal format products is something new. What I foresee is that in the future (distant future? I do not know) Modern and Legacy will come really close to one another and maybe merge as the need for more "broken, fast, weird-you name it" decks will rise as modern payers get bored of the ban list that limits their choices. By then they will have accumulated pretty much any broken card Legacy has to offer but the dual lands. Do you really think the transition to Legacy will be hard at that point? Even if Legaycy doesn't exist anymore, modern will actually be really, really close to becoming Legacy itself. Never forget that this game since its beginning had an eternal format for the old players. Well guess what? The old players are still around and spend way too much money on it to be ignored.

Finally, I do believe that wizards hasn't forgotten Legacy. It is a profitable format if they choose to control it; they just don't do it because they don't have to do anything right now as it functions alone (with some help from SCG- and maybe there is some sort of agreement between them to be done this way)Of course I may be wrong as I am not a professional (although i hope to be one day...) and I don't have information on these two companies but this is the feeling I have.


EDIT: holy *** that is a really big post! sorry about that...

[Megadeus]

The one problem I see for SCG is attendance... The Legacy Open this week got less than 100 people.

[lordofthepit]

The one problem I see for SCG is attendance... The Legacy Open this week got less than 100 people.

Standard turnout was pretty bad too (234 players).

[MirrorMask]

Reduced attendance is something I would expect every now and then. If you do a big tournament almost everyday people get bored of it or can't participate every time because of travel expenses and distance. You can't expect full attendance every time. Also taking into account some "cheating" incidents and the crappy (in my opinion) way they handled it, their reputation taking a hit is also expected. It doesn't matter if the dci judges were present; it wasn't wizards' tournament, it was SCG's tournament. They should have had a way of enforcing fair play. The fact that the punishment wasn't hard either, even though the cheat was proven, makes me wonder if the cheater was in fact "expected" to win the first prize... They do need some successful "heroes" after all to attract more people.

[Megadeus]

Reduced attendance is something I would expect every now and then. If you do a big tournament almost everyday people get bored of it or can't participate every time because of travel expenses and distance. You can't expect full attendance every time. Also taking into account some "cheating" incidents and the crappy (in my opinion) way they handled it, their reputation taking a hit is also expected. It doesn't matter if the dci judges were present; it wasn't wizards' tournament, it was SCG's tournament. They should have had a way of enforcing fair play. The fact that the punishment wasn't hard either, even though the cheat was proven, makes me wonder if the cheater was in fact "expected" to win the first prize... They do need some successful "heroes" after all to attract more people.

The guy was an SCG buyer right? That does make it look a tad sketchy.

I just wish that there were more big tourneys in my area.. With standard I can probably do a big event at least once a month but Legacy is only like twice a year for me (due to not being willing to travel too far). Which is why I wish it were a bit more accessible. I would love to be able to go to my LGS and be able to play Legacy with more people other than the 8ish that do play.

[sdematt]

The guy was an SCG buyer right? That does make it look a tad sketchy.

I just wish that there were more big tourneys in my area.. With standard I can probably do a big event at least once a month but Legacy is only like twice a year for me (due to not being willing to travel too far). Which is why I wish it were a bit more accessible. I would love to be able to go to my LGS and be able to play Legacy with more people other than the 8ish that do play.

I was talking to someone featured in one of the Rounds, and they said apparently there's another tournament or convention that's competing with them for attendance this weekend, but I can't remember what it was.

-Matt

[Barook]

Reduced attendance is something I would expect every now and then. If you do a big tournament almost everyday people get bored of it or can't participate every time because of travel expenses and distance. You can't expect full attendance every time. Also taking into account some "cheating" incidents and the crappy (in my opinion) way they handled it, their reputation taking a hit is also expected. It doesn't matter if the dci judges were present; it wasn't wizards' tournament, it was SCG's tournament. They should have had a way of enforcing fair play. The fact that the punishment wasn't hard either, even though the cheat was proven, makes me wonder if the cheater was in fact "expected" to win the first prize... They do need some successful "heroes" after all to attract more people.
Wait, what happened? I kinda missed it.

[pryite199]

I was talking to someone featured in one of the Rounds, and they said apparently there's another tournament or convention that's competing with them for attendance this weekend, but I can't remember what it was.

-Matt

Do you mean GP Philly which had a huge attendance (1986) this weekend or something more local?

[Tormod]

Not only was it GP Philly, but it was also sealed.

That's sounds like a pretty fun event.

[MirrorMask]

Really? An other convention? That's good news! The more organizers there are the better for players it is!
Practically monopolizing the Legacy scene is even worse than wizards not giving a f*** about Legacy.

[Michael Keller]

It's also reasonable to believe the reduced attendance has something to do with a hurricane that is blasting the east coast - inhibiting travel for a lot of people who would normally make the trip.

[menace13]

Low attendance for SCG is mostly due toThe GP having 2k people, and lesser extent Hurricane Sandy which had an effect on all the eastcoast airports

[ESG]

What I foresee is that in the future (distant future? I do not know) Modern and Legacy will come really close to one another and maybe merge as the need for more "broken, fast, weird-you name it" decks will rise as modern payers get bored of the ban list that limits their choices. By then they will have accumulated pretty much any broken card Legacy has to offer but the dual lands. Do you really think the transition to Legacy will be hard at that point? Even if Legaycy doesn't exist anymore, modern will actually be really, really close to becoming Legacy itself.

I disagree. Unless Modern somehow gets Force of Will and functional reprints of numerous other mainstays and shortens its banned list, the gap between the formats will remain enormous.

[MirrorMask]

I disagree. Unless Modern somehow gets Force of Will and functional reprints of numerous other mainstays and shortens its banned list, the gap between the formats will remain enormous.

If I am not mistaken FOW isn't on the reserved list right? So we may see a reprint if its needed to maintain some balance in modern. Don't forget that wizards,no matter what they say, is prone to huge mistakes (jace TMS, MM) and also the making of quite powerful but not broken stuff (snapcaster, delver). So why are you so sure that this won't happen to modern as well? Is it a unique feature of Legacy to have broken stuff? No. And you know, in fact, players love brokeness. They want, no better yet, they NEED broken stuff to have fun with. But of course brokeness must be kept in check (FOW and the rest of the controlish stuff). How the hell can an eternal format exist without all deck archetypes? It won't be even fun if we can't play with a variety of decks. They just blocked everything right now so they can step by step fix the format again. How long before un-bans begin? How long before moderners get bored of turning their goyfs sideways?

[alderon666]

If I am not mistaken FOW isn't on the reserved list right? So we may see a reprint if its needed to maintain some balance in modern. Don't forget that wizards,no matter what they say, is prone to huge mistakes (jace TMS, MM) and also the making of quite powerful but not broken stuff (snapcaster, delver). So why are you so sure that this won't happen to modern as well? Is it a unique feature of Legacy to have broken stuff? No. And you know, in fact, players love brokeness. They want, no better yet, they NEED broken stuff to have fun with. But of course brokeness must be kept in check (FOW and the rest of the controlish stuff). How the hell can an eternal format exist without all deck archetypes? It won't be even fun if we can't play with a variety of decks. They just blocked everything right now so they can step by step fix the format again. How long before un-bans begin? How long before moderners get bored of turning their goyfs sideways?

Yeah because nobody turns Goyf sideways on Legacy... :rolleyes:

I know that's not what you meant, but considering that the last Modern PT was won by a combo deck and the top 8 was composed of 3x Jund + 5x other completely different decks... your argument is invalid.

Just look at the SCGs latest Legacy Top 8:
CounterTop
U/W Stoneblade
RUG Delver
U/R Stiflenaught
Belcher
Walking Dead
Mono-Blue
RUG Delver

2x RUG Delver, CB and U/W Blade are basically the same deck, U/R Stiflenaught is basically a variant from RUG Delver and the other 3 decks are unique. Notice that 6 out of 8 decks run Force of Will and 5/8 run Brainstorm+Force of Will...

How long before legacyers get bored of casting Force of Will and Brainstorming?

[MirrorMask]

Yeah because nobody turns Goyf sideways on Legacy... :rolleyes:

I know that's not what you meant, but considering that the last Modern PT was won by a combo deck and the top 8 was composed of 3x Jund + 5x other completely different decks... your argument is invalid.

Just look at the SCGs latest Legacy Top 8:
CounterTop
U/W Stoneblade
RUG Delver
U/R Stiflenaught
Belcher
Walking Dead
Mono-Blue
RUG Delver

2x RUG Delver, CB and U/W Blade are basically the same deck, U/R Stiflenaught is basically a variant from RUG Delver and the other 3 decks are unique. Notice that 6 out of 8 decks run Force of Will and 5/8 run Brainstorm+Force of Will...

How long before legacyers get bored of casting Force of Will and Brainstorming?

OK you are probably right. I haven't checked the top 8s in quite some time. But will we ever get bored? We have been casting this stuff from the beginning of the game and we still do. Some may get bored of it, its true; but how many, exclusively, modern players will want to experiment with FOW and friends on the other hand? Probably not now but in the future? Take me for example. When I started mtg I hated blue furiously. As time passed and I became better I tried experimenting with it and guess what? I like it! But for blue to be really successful and interesting you will need the option of some free counter-spells as you can't control the game adequately without them. As far as combo is concerned, a format without library manipulation makes the life of the combo player miserable and right now only serum visions is allowed. Not even ponder!

[xfxf]

How long before legacyers get bored of casting Force of Will and Brainstorming?

How long before Vintage players get bored of casting Moxen, or how long before Standard players get bored of casting creatures?

[MirrorMask]

How long before Vintage players get bored of casting Moxen, or how long before Standard players get bored of casting creatures?

:tongue: But they do get bored of standard that's why they go to other formats later on as they gradually learn the game :cool:

[alderon666]

As far as combo is concerned, a format without library manipulation makes the life of the combo player miserable and right now only serum visions is allowed. Not even ponder!

And still Cifka got there... imagine if he had Ponder to help him find his Faith's Reward/Second Sunrise.

While I do agree that Modern is more T2 than it's Legacy, in the aspect of being more combat oriented. You have to look at it from a different perspective.

For example:
- I hate how in Legacy Merfolk decks can tap out like and idiot every turn and still have FoW + Daze. I find it much more interesting when you have to choose between keeping counter mana up or playing your threat.
- I hate how double Wasteland can randomly lock you out of the game.
- I hate how Brainstorm + Ponder allows you to run 1-ofs in your deck and find them "everytime".
- I hate Show and Tell and Counterbalance, and they basically win the game when resolved under the right circumstances from T2 and on.

Haters gonna hate, I suppose.

[MirrorMask]

And still Cifka got there... imagine if he had Ponder to help him find his Faith's Reward/Second Sunrise.

While I do agree that Modern is more T2 than it's Legacy, in the aspect of being more combat oriented. You have to look at it from a different perspective.

For example:
- I hate how in Legacy Merfolk decks can tap out like and idiot every turn and still have FoW + Daze. I find it much more interesting when you have to choose between keeping counter mana up or playing your threat.
- I hate how double Wasteland can randomly lock you out of the game.
- I hate how Brainstorm + Ponder allows you to run 1-ofs in your deck and find them "everytime".
- I hate Show and Tell and Counterbalance, and they basically win the game when resolved under the right circumstances from T2 and on.

Haters gonna hate, I suppose.

To an extend what you say is true. Wastelands doesn't lock you out if you also run basics. Brainstorm +ponder never ensures that you will find your 1-ofs, mystical tutor does and is banned for this very reason. "Show and hell" may win easily when its plan is realized but so does every deck. Besides, you can stop them before doing it or even after with a "sacrifice your dude" spell. They play counterspells one may say; well, so can you (or discard). What is worse? Tapped out merfolks with FOW or RUG with FOWs :tongue:

[csy]

I hate when people walk unprotected into a show and tell

I hate when people ignore wasteland and lose to double wasteland

I hate when people don't have 1 mana to pay for daze

I hate that people think because drawing the outs you ran in your deck is unfair.


We get your agenda. You like modern. Lots of people on these boards love legacy. Scg nola had a horrible turn out but the tier 1 decks in legacy still allow you to play any crazy tactic you want.

What are you modern thumpers tryin to do? Conince us that our steadily growin favorite format is some how going to die tomorrow so we should play more modern? Spoiler alert a lot of already do, and it's just not as fun as legacy/vintage/drafting. I for one play every format.

[Barook]

And still Cifka got there... imagine if he had Ponder to help him find his Faith's Reward/Second Sunrise.

While I do agree that Modern is more T2 than it's Legacy, in the aspect of being more combat oriented. You have to look at it from a different perspective.

For example:
- I hate how in Legacy Merfolk decks can tap out like and idiot every turn and still have FoW + Daze. I find it much more interesting when you have to choose between keeping counter mana up or playing your threat.
- I hate how double Wasteland can randomly lock you out of the game.
- I hate how Brainstorm + Ponder allows you to run 1-ofs in your deck and find them "everytime".
- I hate Show and Tell and Counterbalance, and they basically win the game when resolved under the right circumstances from T2 and on.

Haters gonna hate, I suppose.
Funny how all those issues have AWESOME or can be played alongside with it.

I don't think Modern necessarily needs FoW. I would rather see good disruption on par with it in other colors.

[Koby]

How long before Vintage players get bored of casting Moxen?

Been tapping Moxen since 2005, no plans on stopping now.

@alderon66
Also, I've been saying it for about a year in the Maverick threat - I have a healthy paranoia of Wasteland. I respect it. And I don't lose to it. Deal with it by building better decks, not by complaining how "omg they got lucky". Take ownership of the mistakes you make and be a better builder/player. You don't grow as a player by kvetching about your lucky opponents.

[MirrorMask]

Well i guess the previous posters prove my point :laugh: .

[sdematt]

I think this is what a ton of players do not realize. It's very simple.

This is how you play against RUG Delver.

1) Look at your hand. Does it have 2-3 mana producing lands? If yes, determine if it's a keep. If not, consider a mull.
2) Are those 2-3 lands consisting of colour producing lands, or can fetch colour producing lands? If yes, consider keeping, if not, mull.
3) Do you have at least 1 Fetch to go get a basic? Is this the basic you want for this hand? Can you live without the dual in your hand that might get wasted? Do you have a piece of mana acceleration that will help? If your answers is yes, then you probably keep.

Your first Fetchlands should be for on-colour basics for the hand you're playing out, and the Fetches past this should be your "value" fetches, usually for your Duals. Now, this isn't always the case. If you MUST fetch a dual to make the play, then that's what needs to be done, but be aware that you may not have it next turn.

I'm not sure what's so hard about this. Same with Daze. "Can I wait to play this next turn? Do I need it now and take the chance? Does it matter (as in, if I'm casting Sylvan on turn 3 and they have no mana open, I'm safe from Daze, but if they have 1 mana open, Spell Pierce is live, so I could get boned either way)?"

Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.

All war is deception.

-Matt

[MirrorMask]

The guy above me has also a very good point. This is how Legacy is meant to be played. You shouldn't be bitching at peoples' Forces & wastelands.
Be prepared for it but when it goes wrong and your opponent sticks his "daze" in you a** be courteous and accept "total defeat" like a man :laugh: :rolleyes:

[alderon666]

Yeah... the way you put you can always play around Wasteland and Daze. While that might be true sometimes, that's just not the case most of the time.

If they have a flipped Delver eating your face, can you really afford to play around Daze for 1/2/3 turns?
Can you really play/fetch for basic lands everygame? I play ANT with basics and sometimes I just need to fetch for USea because I need all the colors.

Daze is OK, they lose a land drop and such. Don't mind that much getting my shit Dazed. But Wasteland is just oppresive...

[Observer]

Can we please get back on topic - Legacy's slow and grueling demise?

/sarcasm off

[alderon666]

Can we please get back on topic - Legacy's slow and grueling demise?

/sarcasm off

C'mon, we're discussing how horrible the format is right now. By the time I'm done you'll be glad this miserable format is dying...

/sarcasm off

[Koby]

As for Legacy's demise - i think RTR did not provide enough meaningful interaction for the format. No solid creatures were added to the existing archetypes. Only spells - Abrupt Decay, Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere are the universal standouts. Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman provide niche utility, but otherwise don't define anything new.

Without the introduction of "newness" making waves rather than splashes, it feels like Legacy is stagnating. This mean the people who are on the fence about the format are now more against it. Even I'm getting a little bored with the existing archetypes. This does not mean that Legacy's demise is imminent. Legacy has always been a slow-evolving format. It's only been accelerated with the help of SCG opens on a weekly basis, however it's far from solved.

[MirrorMask]

Have some patience. You can't expect every new edition to add omnipotent stuff to Legacy and radically change the format every 3 months... Legacy has a snail's pace after all. Have faith in wizards' "mistakes".

[Jenni]

As far as stuff like wasteland and force are concerned, I've never found them particularly oppressive... you just need to keep them in mind. Sometimes, you have no choice but to play into them, but the same can be said of mana leak or vindicate or any other controlling card, most of the time I've been able to play around them or at least minimize the damage they do.
I do love punishing people who don't know how to play around them though - it's always fun to stifle a fetch, waste their tropical island, then finish locking them out of the game with Rishadan port.

Anyway, RTR added a fair bit to legacy. We got a couple solid removal spells, a wrath that is actually pretty playable, a white leyline of the void, an aggressive Red 2-drop that hoses snapcasters which could find a home in some mono-red or burn deck, the grave-hate shaman could easily find a home in the right meta, even in a bad meta with all the fetches and wastelands around, it could be a birds of paradise for black decks. It didn't revolutionize the format or add a new deck, at least not yet, it could still do so eventually, but it's added a fair bit to existing archetypes.

[Lord Seth]

Wasteland is critical to Legacy because without it there is practically no downside to ever playing/fetching a dual land instead of a basic.

[Namida]

As for Legacy's demise - i think RTR did not provide enough meaningful interaction for the format. No solid creatures were added to the existing archetypes. Only spells - Abrupt Decay, Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere are the universal standouts. Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman provide niche utility, but otherwise don't define anything new.

Without the introduction of "newness" making waves rather than splashes, it feels like Legacy is stagnating. This mean the people who are on the fence about the format are now more against it. Even I'm getting a little bored with the existing archetypes. This does not mean that Legacy's demise is imminent. Legacy has always been a slow-evolving format. It's only been accelerated with the help of SCG opens on a weekly basis, however it's far from solved.

The fact that there are even three cards in RTR that are actually good enough for Legacy is crazy to me. And when is the last time a set came out and didn't mess with the established Legacy metagame?

When I first got into Legacy, I was surprised that the format is actually affected so much by recent releases. Do people honestly expect a format almost as dynamic as Standard when they join up?

[Koby]

The fact that there are even three cards in RTR that are actually good enough for Legacy is crazy to me. And when is the last time a set came out and didn't mess with the established Legacy metagame?

When I first got into Legacy, I was surprised that the format is actually affected so much by recent releases. Do people honestly expect a format almost as dynamic as Standard when they join up?

Scars of Mirrodin did a whole lot to curb the power of Survival and VV (but maybe it was overshadowed by it).
My point was more in reference that RTR generally just patched up holes in decks that needed an upgrade from the spell standpoint, while not providing any new creatures to incorporate. After Innistrad & Dark Ascension, both providing tons of new creatures to generate exciting (or reviled) changes, AVC and this set really shift gears towards spells again. This is to the benefit of UW control mostly (just so happens that both playable miracles fit so nicely together), after the initial Griselbrand wave died down.

Perhaps one set is too short a time frame to gauge the changes to Legacy, but on the heels of the :w: miracles in Avacyn Restores and the Azorius guild cards, it sure doesn't feel like Legacy is experiencing any big waves right now. RTR is only adding to existing DTB with the exception of Golgari cards revitalizing a severely underused combination in Legacy (BUG and GB/x midrange).

It's really sad that Abrupt Decay performs better in Storm combo sideboards more than it does in GB/x mid-range.

[Fizzeler]

I was actually quite surprised when I gauged recent sets and how much they have impacted Legacy, even if only 3 cards entered into the format, that is still 3 cards and people will still tinker and test with more to see of the card fits in a particular deck

Take Grisly Salvage, while it doesn't look Legacy playable I could see a Loam variant or Vengevine/Madness deck picking this up for card selection, same for Lotleth Troll

Supreme Verdict I am know seeing in sideboards of most Miracles decks as it hoses Canadian Thresh and gives the deck another wrath effect

People will try to jam Vraska into Nic Fit or The Rock, and while it may not work it is worth trying

Then there is Judge's Familiar and Dryad Militant which give the G/W and Mono White decks more answers to GY and Combo

I think we are still just beginning to see RTR's impact in Legacy

[alderon666]

Wasteland is critical to Legacy because without it there is practically no downside to ever playing/fetching a dual land instead of a basic.

Price of Progress and Back to Basics walk into a bar...

[Lord Seth]

Price of Progress and Back to Basics walk into a bar...Both of which are only playable in very specific deck types.

[Namida]

Both of which are only playable in very specific deck types.

The notion that very specific deck types are able to completely punish you for not using basics doesn't sound like "no downside to ever playing/fetching duals" to me. Can you elaborate more on why you think Wasteland is critical to Legacy?

[Jenni]

The notion that very specific deck types are able to completely punish you for not using basics doesn't sound like "no downside to ever playing/fetching duals" to me. Can you elaborate more on why you think Wasteland is critical to Legacy?

I don't know that I would say Wasteland specifically is critical, but some way for any deck to deal with nonbasics I think is important when you have man lands, dual lands, tabernacle at pendrell vale, Karakas, Rishadan port, and maze of ith running around. I think Ghost Quarter could fill this void fine if wasteland were to be removed from the format, but wasteland isn't so powerful that it should be considered for a ban and it's the best at this particular task save for strip mine, which I really wish they would unban, personally, but oh well.

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't know that I would say Wasteland specifically is critical, but some way for any deck to deal with nonbasics I think is important when you have man lands, dual lands, tabernacle at pendrell vale, Karakas, Rishadan port, and maze of ith running around. I think Ghost Quarter could fill this void fine if wasteland were to be removed from the format, but wasteland isn't so powerful that it should be considered for a ban and it's the best at this particular task save for strip mine, which I really wish they would unban, personally, but oh well.
Ghost Quarter likely wouldn't see play unless a very powerful linear based on needing specific nonbasics in play cropped up. The card is significantly worse than Wasteland.

People have gotten much better at building manabases than they were 4-5 years ago. Part of this is the result of the "professionalization" of the format following the advent of the SCG 5k series and the drive to optimize that introduced. There really isn't a reason to get greedy with your mana these days, partially because of Wasteland and partially because two- and three-color decks are now powerful enough that the rewards simply aren't there.

[Lord Seth]

The notion that very specific deck types are able to completely punish you for not using basics doesn't sound like "no downside to ever playing/fetching duals" to me.First, I said "practically no downside to ever playing/fetching duals." Thereby indicating that in a few situations there would be, but otherwise there's none. This is quote mining on your part.

Second, Price of Progress doesn't "completely punish" you for playing with dual lands. If you're running dual lands, you'd need maybe what, two in play. While 4 damage for 1R is hardly a bad deal, that's really less a case of punishing (let alone "completely" punishing) someone for it and more a case of a card that's useful when your opponent runs nonbasics, which most decks in Legacy do. Price of Progress really only comes into its own when an opponent is using other nonbasics in addition to the dual lands. And it's really only playable in Burn variants.

Back to Basics, which I would say is in fact legitimately punishing, is worse if you ask me and even more limited in the decks it can go into. Price of Progress can hit you also (especially if you're UR Delver), but if you're playing Price of Progress you're playing a deck that can handle taking a little damage on the route to victory. Back to Basics, on the other hand, has a bigger potential drawback for you, so even an actual mono-Blue deck might not want to run it if they run nonbasics or it doesn't fit into the strategy (it's hardly useful in High Tide, for example). So only a handful of decks will actually want to run it. It's mediocre in multiples also. And on a minor point, it does nothing against the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

So, unless playing against very specific decks, Back to Basics and Price of Progress don't really do much of anything to discourage nonbasic lands. Wasteland, on the other hand, can be run in far more decks.


Can you elaborate more on why you think Wasteland is critical to Legacy?I already did, honestly. Without it, the duals are pretty much just strictly better than the basic lands. Yes, there are a few decks that change that, but against most--or even almost all--decks what I said holds true. Wasteland is a card that can be--and is--played in a much wider variety of decks and creates a much more legitimate reason to ever fetch out basic lands instead of dual lands. This isn't Modern, where the disadvantage of the dual lands is built into the shocklands, so Wasteland is important to providing that incentive to Legacy as well.

Outside of the dual lands, it is pretty important for there to be actual answers to cards like Maze of Ith or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

[Megadeus]

Outside of the dual lands, it is pretty important for there to be actual answers to cards like Maze of Ith or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.
That can fit into any deck.

[Namida]

I already did, honestly. Without it, the duals are pretty much just strictly better than the basic lands. Yes, there are a few decks that change that, but against most--or even almost all--decks what I said holds true. Wasteland is a card that can be--and is--played in a much wider variety of decks and creates a much more legitimate reason to ever fetch out basic lands instead of dual lands. This isn't Modern, where the disadvantage of the dual lands is built into the shocklands, so Wasteland is important to providing that incentive to Legacy as well.

Outside of the dual lands, it is pretty important for there to be actual answers to cards like Maze of Ith or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

I'm not trying the lead the charge against Wasteland or anything. I meant to ask you to explain why it is important for nonbasic lands to have an answer to them, and why that nonbasic land hate needs to be accessible outside of very specific decks (I also feel like these nonbasic hate cards are less playable only because Wasteland forces people to automatically play around them anyway). I understand the argument when you direct it towards utility lands like Maze of Ith and the ilk, but I don't completely understand why it would be wholly bad if players could play no basics in their decks with no fear. I accept things the way they are, but I question why it is necessary that things are they way that they are.

[alderon666]

If you're running dual lands, you'd need maybe what, two in play.

Really? C'mon!
What deck function off 2 lands? My freaking storm decks loves having 3 lands on turn 3! Let alone decks that wanna cast Jace, Knight of Reliquary, Green Sun's Zenith, etc.
If everybody only played non-basic lands Price of Progress would be a beast, it would easily deal 8-10 damage. And if you add Snapcaster to that, you can almost win the game off only 2 cards...

[Vacrix]

Really? C'mon!
What deck function off 2 lands? My freaking storm decks loves having 3 lands on turn 3! Let alone decks that wanna cast Jace, Knight of Reliquary, Green Sun's Zenith, etc.
If everybody only played non-basic lands Price of Progress would be a beast, it would easily deal 8-10 damage. And if you add Snapcaster to that, you can almost win the game off only 2 cards...
RUG functions fairly well with a single land in play.

Decks like Belcher and SI play 1 or 2 lands in the entire maindeck.





Having Wasteland around means you can't always play ridiculous shenanigans with cards like Karakas, Tabernacle, as well as plenty of other utility lands. Also, Tempo would be much weaker without Wasteland and a strong Tempo presence keeps a lot of unfair decks in check. However, I think the biggest perk of Wasteland is that its a fun card to have in the format. Playing with and/or against it creates a new angle to the game that many/most players would miss if it were removed.

[csy]

Wasteland is oppressive. Ha! That's rich. Wasteland fow daze etc are all critical pieces. If they didn't exist the Eco system would shatter. Everything is doing what it's supposed to be doing and if you're frustrated about losing to daze or wasteland, play better.

Legacy is basically the iPhone 4. It's totally fine you're just holdin it wrong. Here's a free case to make you feel better (modern)

[Namida]

Wasteland is oppressive. Ha! That's rich. Wasteland fow daze etc are all critical pieces. If they didn't exist the Eco system would shatter. Everything is doing what it's supposed to be doing and if you're frustrated about losing to daze or wasteland, play better.

Legacy is basically the iPhone 4. It's totally fine you're just holdin it wrong. Here's a free case to make you feel better (modern)

I don't think anyone is trying to imply that Wasteland is oppressive. I'm just wondering how the format would have shaped up if Wasteland were never in it. Would we have honestly reached a point where everyone was going "Holy shit we need an answer to all of these nonbasic lands that almost every deck can play?"

[Megadeus]

Not saying wasteland needs to see a reprint, but one reason I have been annoyed with standard recently is due to the lack of decently efficient LD. Valakut, Kessig, ink moth. Stuff like this with no way to interact outsode of the awful ghost quarter...

[Barook]

Not saying wasteland needs to see a reprint, but one reason I have been annoyed with standard recently is due to the lack of decently efficient LD. Valakut, Kessig, ink moth. Stuff like this with no way to interact outsode of the awful ghost quarter...
They won't make Wasteland Standard-legal ever again. Wasteland enforces monocolored decks without a decent Fetchland + Duals manabase available. While that isn't necessarily a bad thing by itself, Wizards wouldn't be able to cash in on "shitty Dual clone #257".

Hence the lack of decent LD, considering two 3CC LD spells = instant deck in Standard.

If Wizards really wanted to support Legacy, they could easily print new duals with the Snow supertype because it makes them functionally different, thus the Reserved List doesn't apply.

[Megadeus]

They won't make Wasteland Standard-legal ever again. Wasteland enforces monocolored decks without a decent Fetchland + Duals manabase available. While that isn't necessarily a bad thing by itself, Wizards wouldn't be able to cash in on "shitty Dual clone #257".

Hence the lack of decent LD, considering two 3CC LD spells = instant deck in Standard.

If Wizards really wanted to support Legacy, they could easily print new duals with the Snow supertype because it makes them functionally different, thus the Reserved List doesn't apply.

Even just a Stone Rain reprint would make me happy... Or a wasteland that has a downside of some kind? (Not ghost quarter)

Something like a shock Wasteland or something... Or like a comes into play tapped wasteland

[csy]

I don't think anyone is trying to imply that Wasteland is oppressive. I'm just wondering how the format would have shaped up if Wasteland were never in it. Would we have honestly reached a point where everyone was going "Holy shit we need an answer to all of these nonbasic lands that almost every deck can play?"

Alderon 666 literally said wastleland is oppressive.

[Lord Seth]

Really? C'mon!
What deck function off 2 lands? My freaking storm decks loves having 3 lands on turn 3! Let alone decks that wanna cast Jace, Knight of Reliquary, Green Sun's Zenith, etc.You misunderstood me. I wasn't saying you'd need only two lands in play. I said you'd need only two dual lands in play, because once you have that you've got pretty much all the manafixing you'd need and the rest can be basics because you won't have any more mana color problems.
I understand the argument when you direct it towards utility lands like Maze of Ith and the ilk, but I don't completely understand why it would be wholly bad if players could play no basics in their decks with no fear. I accept things the way they are, but I question why it is necessary that things are they way that they are.Because I think there should be more legitimate drawbacks to dual lands, which the originals lack. Wasteland provides an actual drawback to them. It's why I think Wasteland is perfectly fine in Legacy but would be too powerful in formats where the dual lands already have an actual drawback and don't need Wasteland to provide it.
I don't think anyone is trying to imply that Wasteland is oppressive.Pretty sure that's what Alderon666 has been arguing.

[Namida]

Alderon 666 literally said wastleland is oppressive.

Yeah, I missed that. I disagree to the point that I thought it was kind of pointless to argue it, so when I skimmed, I missed that argument. Carry on.

My opinion was merely that I don't think Wasteland not existing would mean that we would be clamoring for a Wasteland-type card right now.

[UnsungHero]

They won't make Wasteland Standard-legal ever again. Wasteland enforces monocolored decks without a decent Fetchland + Duals manabase available. While that isn't necessarily a bad thing by itself, Wizards wouldn't be able to cash in on "shitty Dual clone #257".

Hence the lack of decent LD, considering two 3CC LD spells = instant deck in Standard.

If Wizards really wanted to support Legacy, they could easily print new duals with the Snow supertype because it makes them functionally different, thus the Reserved List doesn't apply.

Why does it have to be snow? Snow makes little sense, flavorwise, Snow covered tundra? No shit its covered with snow its a Tundra! Does Non Snowcovered tundra lack snow then, or is a snowcovered one just have more snow?. Supertypes they have had were gate,locus,lair ect. If they did make some sort of functional reprint im sure they would create a new supertype, rather than giving it a snow supertype. Remember ABUR Duals are iconic, sought after cards, if you would introduce a functional reprint for them, at least give it a supertype that hasn't been done before.

[Lord Seth]

Not saying wasteland needs to see a reprint, but one reason I have been annoyed with standard recently is due to the lack of decently efficient LD. Valakut, Kessig, ink moth. Stuff like this with no way to interact outsode of the awful ghost quarter...Valakut wasn't even legal at the same time as Ghost Quarter. It was, however, legal at the same time as Tectonic Edge, which is actually pretty good at taking it out. Inkmoth Nexus is really weird to bring up considering you can interact with it in the same ways you could interact with a Plague Stinger. Kessig Wolf Run...well, okay, you've got more of a point there, though I don't remember having that much trouble dealing with it (then again, I played against it maybe once or twice, it never seemed particularly popular in the places I played).

[Barook]

Why does it have to be snow? Snow makes little sense, flavorwise, Snow covered tundra? No shit its covered with snow its a Tundra! Does Non Snowcovered tundra lack snow then, or is a snowcovered one just have more snow?. Supertypes they have had were gate,locus,lair ect. If they did make some sort of functional reprint im sure they would create a new supertype, rather than giving it a snow supertype. Remember ABUR Duals are iconic, sought after cards, if you would introduce a functional reprint for them, at least give it a supertype that hasn't been done before.
Of course they would have other names, just like Hallowed Fountain is a :w:/:u: Dual in a City setting.

Snow was just an example, since it would actually have some meaningful ways of interaction Legacy. Any other supertype would work as well.

Point is that there's money to be made for Wizards in a relatively easy way, be it either in a Legacy Masters set or just a special like "Rip Off 2: Electric Boogaloo". E.g. 5 new tri-colored Commander sets, each with 2 Neo Duals. That would sell like candy.

We just need to make it clear enough to them.

[CorwinB]

Valakut wasn't even legal at the same time as Ghost Quarter. It was, however, legal at the same time as Tectonic Edge, which is actually pretty good at taking it out. Inkmoth Nexus is really weird to bring up considering you can interact with it in the same ways you could interact with a Plague Stinger. Kessig Wolf Run...well, okay, you've got more of a point there, though I don't remember having that much trouble dealing with it (then again, I played against it maybe once or twice, it never seemed particularly popular in the places I played).

Tectonic was played heavily during its Standard time, as it also helped against the WWK manlands such as Celestial Colonnade. Back on topic, if WotC wanted to help Legacy, I think they could start by reprinting stuff that is not on the RL and could help a lot, such as Wasteland and Force of Will, before even thinking of circumventing the RL by using dual variants.

[sdematt]

I think banning Wasteland to help improve Legacy is like voting for Mitt Romney to punish Obama because you don't like the fact that Obama hasn't closed down Guantanamo Bay Prison. You can't actually have a more literal "cutting off the nose to spite the face" situation.

-Matt

[Finn]

Yeah... the way you put you can always play around Wasteland and Daze. While that might be true sometimes, that's just not the case most of the time.

If they have a flipped Delver eating your face, can you really afford to play around Daze for 1/2/3 turns?
Can you really play/fetch for basic lands everygame? I play ANT with basics and sometimes I just need to fetch for USea because I need all the colors.

Daze is OK, they lose a land drop and such. Don't mind that much getting my shit Dazed. But Wasteland is just oppresive...Cards that keep crazy powerful combos in check get a thumbs up from me. Cards that keep greedy manabases in check get a thumbs up from me. These are the cards that prevent the need for massive bannings. They are the brass ring of cards in any format. You could, ya know, not play so many colors or perhaps not such a risky deck. I'm not picking on ya, man. But this is typical. I hear storm players publicly taking two tones: "Buwahaha!" and "This is boooolshit". Combo decks are all-in by their nature. They win big or lose big. If players can't take the lows that come with the highs, they should play something less polar. It has nothing whatsoever to do with either the format or the cards.

[Jenni]

Cards that keep crazy powerful combos in check get a thumbs up from me. Cards that keep greedy manabases in check get a thumbs up from me. These are the cards that prevent the need for massive bannings. They are the brass ring of cards in any format. You could, ya know, not play so many colors or perhaps not such a risky deck. I'm not picking on ya, man. But this is typical. I hear storm players publicly taking two tones: "Buwahaha!" and "This is boooolshit". Combo decks are all-in by their nature. They win big or lose big. If players can't take the lows that come with the highs, they should play something less polar. It has nothing whatsoever to do with either the format or the cards.

100% agree that cards that punish greedy manabases and crazy combo get a thumbs-up. I would not like to see how this format would be without them. Though, if the past is anything to go on, especially eras like Combo Winter, noninteractive combo decks might become the standard, rather than the exception.

As for storm players whining, I don't hear that too much from experienced players. Newer players always whine about how force is broken because it stops their combo, or how wasteland is a problem because they can't safely fetch a tropical island turn 1 and scrubland turn 2 and have perfect mana for the rest of the game. More experienced players tend to be fine with the existence of answers to their combo, in my experience anyway. They realize their deck is a go big or go home sort of deck, and accept that it can fizzle and die if something goes wrong.

[alderon666]

Cards that keep crazy powerful combos in check get a thumbs up from me. Cards that keep greedy manabases in check get a thumbs up from me. These are the cards that prevent the need for massive bannings. They are the brass ring of cards in any format. You could, ya know, not play so many colors or perhaps not such a risky deck. I'm not picking on ya, man. But this is typical. I hear storm players publicly taking two tones: "Buwahaha!" and "This is boooolshit". Combo decks are all-in by their nature. They win big or lose big. If players can't take the lows that come with the highs, they should play something less polar. It has nothing whatsoever to do with either the format or the cards.

While playing storm, the least of your problems is Wasteland. You rarely lose only to just Wasteland + pressure. You lose to Thalia, Gaddock, Delver + 4 counters and stuff like that. I even play basics nowadays, so it's even less of an issue.

My beef with Wasteland is that it restricts (some may say "shape") the format into low CC cards. Look at Bloodbraid Elf. It's a fine card, played every format it was valid, except Legacy. In Legacy we even have Brainstorm for Cascade craziness with Ancestral Vision and such. But the 4cc is too much, in many matches you'll probably be locked out of that kind of mana for several turns (that you wouldn't normally be) and even the whole game.

Wasn't Legacy the format where you could play "whatever" you wanted?

I never suggested banning Wasteland, I just said I dislike its effects on the format. While it keeps the unfair stuff on check, it also keeps some other strategies completely locked out. But that's just my opinion right? I could be wrong.

[Jenni]

My beef with Wasteland is that it restricts (some may say "shape") the format into low CC cards. Look at Bloodbraid Elf. It's a fine card, played every format it was valid, except Legacy. In Legacy we even have Brainstorm for Cascade craziness with Ancestral Vision and such. But the 4cc is too much, in many matches you'll probably be locked out of that kind of mana for several turns (that you wouldn't normally be) and even the whole game.

Wasteland isn't the reason BBE isn't seeing play in legacy. it's entirely to cast BBE off of basics and fetches while playing around wasteland. 4 mana is a lot in this format because of all the powerful things available at lower mana costs. Blood braid elf is nice, but you can get just as much effect cascading Shardless agent, who is easier to cast.

What are you planning to cascade into? Ancestral can be cascaded into by agent without adding red and making your mana worse. Goyf can be cascaded into off of either as well, so can bob, Swords, snapcaster, lightning helix, mongoose, bolt, hymn, sinkhole, and so on.

Some decks do get to 4 mana, though, reliably. The control decks can get to 4 easily, so can enchantress, so can stax.
If you want to get to 4, you need a deck that can survive that long, which is why it's a lot in this format - you have combo decks killing on turn 2-3 (or belcher winning on turn 1 if they're lucky) and you have aggro decks closing out the game on turn 3-4, and tempo decks winning on 3-5 with disruption backup. If you want to reliably survive to 4 mana, you need to either ramp there or slow the game down to get that far, which can be done playing around wasteland, or making wasteland irrelevant.
If you really need 4 mana in the face of a wasteland, then play mox diamonds, which fix your colours, are waste-proof, and can accelerate your mana anyway. Play basics and more fetch lands, rather than depending on duals, to fix your mana.
If you're really unlucky, or just bad, then wasteland can leave you helpless with no mana. It's up to you to make sure it doesn't happen by building your manabase accordingly, and knowing how to play.

[Mr. Safety]

I think banning Wasteland to help improve Legacy is like voting for Mitt Romney to punish Obama because you don't like the fact that Obama hasn't closed down Guantanamo Bay Prison. You can't actually have a more literal "cutting off the nose to spite the face" situation.

-Matt

Win!

[mini1337s]

Am I completely bananas, or would dual colored commander decks, each with an original dual with some irrelevant supertype, not introduce enough lands into the format? Walmart keeps the MSRP in check, EDH players either get the dual they've proxied forever or a lot of trade value, they are different lands so they don't completely devalued revised, etc.

[Koby]

Am I completely bananas, or would dual colored commander decks, each with an original dual with some irrelevant supertype, not introduce enough lands into the format? Walmart keeps the MSRP in check, EDH players either get the dual they've proxied forever or a lot of trade value, they are different lands so they don't completely devalued revised, etc.

I would be down for this, but sadly -- Reserve List. :frown:

EDIT: Read the post too fast to notice adding super-type. I'm still down with this idea (and even exact reprint DGAF print them all).

[mini1337s]

I would be down for this, but sadly -- Reserve List. :frown:
Even with different supertypes? Like the snow covered suggestion?

[Jenni]

I would be down for this, but sadly -- Reserve List. :frown:

from : http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.

Changing the supertype and name would make it a new distinct card, and it would not violate the reserve list.

[lochlan]

Changing the supertype and name would make it a new distinct card, and it would not violate the reserve list.

A supertype is not a "card type", see rule 205.2.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Not saying wasteland needs to see a reprint, but one reason I have been annoyed with standard recently is due to the lack of decently efficient LD. Valakut, Kessig, ink moth. Stuff like this with no way to interact outsode of the awful ghost quarter...

Jesus I know right?

I hate how Standard has turned into such a bomby format.
It seems like the bombs and gotten 10x stronger with an overabundance of 4-6 CMC game-enders and the answers just keep getting worse and farther apart.
When every other deck relies on dropping a 6CMC creature and LD costs minimum 4 and just keeps getting worse something seems wrong.
Can we SERIOUSLY get a Stone Rain that only hits non-basics at the very least, or a Ghost Quarter that has a may for the opponent to allow a mutual basic land search, or Tec Edge?



Hence the lack of decent LD, considering two 3CC LD spells = instant deck in Standard.


That's not really true if you look back in Standard history. It has happened, but it's not like every time 2 3cmc LD spells fall in the same rotation LD was played to even moderate success.
Regardless of that though there's a huge amount of space between Stone Rain + Molten Rain and the best LD available being Ghost Quarter and the next best option being unplayable.


Valakut wasn't even legal at the same time as Ghost Quarter. It was, however, legal at the same time as Tectonic Edge, which is actually pretty good at taking it out. Inkmoth Nexus is really weird to bring up considering you can interact with it in the same ways you could interact with a Plague Stinger. Kessig Wolf Run...well, okay, you've got more of a point there, though I don't remember having that much trouble dealing with it (then again, I played against it maybe once or twice, it never seemed particularly popular in the places I played).
Tec Edge was horrendous vs. Valakut. When Valakut was a DTB in Standard I played UB Control with 4x Tec Edges and it was practically useless in that matchup and I played RDW with 4x Tec Edges main and again it was almost always useless in that matchup. They had way too much ramp and by the time they got to 4 lands you could maybe buy a turn but in doing that you set yourself back a turn.

[Jenni]

A supertype is not a "card type", see rule 205.2.

True, I was thinking of subtypes, which would work how I intended. something like land - plains swamp gate (just an example, they could make a new subtype or use a different one, whatever).
Supertypes are something else completely so I was mistaken there.

[Fizzeler]

Am I completely bananas, or would dual colored commander decks, each with an original dual with some irrelevant supertype, not introduce enough lands into the format? Walmart keeps the MSRP in check, EDH players either get the dual they've proxied forever or a lot of trade value, they are different lands so they don't completely devalued revised, etc.

But, but this makes to much sense for Wizards to actually do this

Seriously this would also keep it out of both Modern and Standard due to WotC Eternal Format definitions

[mini1337s]

But, but this makes to much sense for Wizards to actually do this

Seriously this would also keep it out of both Modern and Standard due to WotC Eternal Format definitions
Most of the appeal for me would be Walmart, not Starcity, having a major influence the retail price of the product. Walmart doesn't give 2 shits about commander decks with functional reprints of Underground Sea, and they'll just buy more product from the ol' Mothership when they fly off the shelves at $35 each. If WotC tells Walmart executives that the MRSP is $35, Walmart will roll it back to $30.
All the qq'ing collectors keep their filthy Revised duals at a high value ("well, you see, *pushes greasy glasses up* it's not a revised Tundra, so it's just worth standard trash to me") and the more budget conscious players get to enter a format because they are fine with playing 4x "Snowy Tropical Island" over the original

[Koby]

I would buy the new duals just to play with them and be that guy.
PS, I own all BB duals right now anyway.

[TsumiBand]

It doesn't even need to be specialized product. Type Two is whatever they want it to be. There's no reason why Standard can't handle Force of Will, because Standard can be hundreds of other cards that haven't been created yet. Same with Wasteland; it's defined by its environment, if Legacy were somehow built on basic lands no one would give a fuck about Wasteland. They can print "Island Swamp Locus" if they want to and make it be just fine. Well maybe not Loci, but it's a subtype that exists, and fundamentally changes the land away from any current dual land.

Hell, it needn't even be a dual land at the end of the day. A playable fetchland for nonbasics. Sure, fuck it, I'll (pay a reasonable cost) to put a painland into play. Who cares. Standard can answer itself, so why not print Force in a block with little-to-no good Blue card advantage, or Wasteland in a block with little advantage to playing nonbasics, or whatever. An EDH set is one way to do it, but those "limited print run" caveats aren't reprints "for the people" if you will.

[mini1337s]

Hell, it needn't even be a dual land at the end of the day. A playable fetchland for nonbasics. Sure, fuck it, I'll (pay a reasonable cost) to put a painland into play. Who cares. Standard can answer itself, so why not print Force in a block with little-to-no good Blue card advantage, or Wasteland in a block with little advantage to playing nonbasics, or whatever. An EDH set is one way to do it, but those "limited print run" caveats aren't reprints "for the people" if you will.
Noobs bitch about Mana Leak in standard. Mana Leak.
Do you really think a free counterspell is going to fly?

[Barook]

A supertype is not a "card type", see rule 205.2.
So wait, Snow Duals wouldn't work? :eyebrow:

I thought that was the genereally agreed upon method to reprint duals.

[TsumiBand]

Noobs bitch about Mana Leak in standard. Mana Leak.
Do you really think a free counterspell is going to fly?

There's always a way to print a Gotcha. There's always a way to slip a card into a set that doesn't jive well enough with the rest of the cards in it to matter a damn. Force of Will is bad against aggressive decks when you can't replace your card disadvantage in a meaningful way. They've shown no compunction about printing Wrath effects at 6, and bad ones at that; print a Standard set with meaningless Blue card draw outside of Inspiration and a terrible 7 mana Wrath, and watch all aggro players stop giving a damn if their first turn play gets Forced.

[Jenni]

So wait, Snow Duals wouldn't work? :eyebrow:

I thought that was the genereally agreed upon method to reprint duals.

Snow would not work since it's a supertype a subtype like gate would. It's weird.
basically supertypes are treated like names in terms of determining if something is a functional reprint. It's essentially just a matter of the wording on the reprint policy. to repost:

A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
Supertype is not listed, and as lochlan pointed out, supertype is not a card type, or any of those other things listed. Subtype is on that list though. The odd consequence is that Snow duals are a functional reprint, where gate duals are not.

[mini1337s]

There's always a way to print a Gotcha. There's always a way to slip a card into a set that doesn't jive well enough with the rest of the cards in it to matter a damn. Force of Will is bad against aggressive decks when you can't replace your card disadvantage in a meaningful way. They've shown no compunction about printing Wrath effects at 6, and bad ones at that; print a Standard set with meaningless Blue card draw outside of Inspiration and a terrible 7 mana Wrath, and watch all aggro players stop giving a damn if their first turn play gets Forced.
Personally, I totally agree, but because I've played with/against enough Forces.
I think shit thinktanks like salvation wouldn't though.

[FieryBalrog]

Noobs bitch about Mana Leak in standard. Mana Leak.
Do you really think a free counterspell is going to fly?

Because Mana Leak was very, very good in that Standard, especially with all the ETB and hexproof flying around, and the fact that it works brilliantly with Delver + Phyrexian spells and ponder.
Just because it's "lol, Mana Leak" in Legacy doesn't mean the same thing for another format.

[Octopusman]

Rosewater said in his blog that functionally different cards that are virtually not(hardly) different at all from the original subvert the spirit of the reserved list. No time to look for link. Feel free to dig back and look yourself: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/

[FieryBalrog]

Rosewater said in his blog that functionally different cards that are virtually not(hardly) different at all from the original subvert the spirit of the reserved list. No time to look for link. Feel free to dig back and look yourself: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/

On the other hand, they've already printed Reverberate, so...

[Barook]

On the other hand, they've already printed Reverberate, so...
Fork makes the copy red, though. Whether or not that's different enough is up to interpretation.

[Lord Seth]

I believe the link being referred to is here (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/32012175825/if-fork-is-on-the-reserved-list-why-is-reverberate).

[death]

Wizards were coming out with premium foils of Reserved list cards pre-2011 (cough: Phyrexian Dreadnought, Mox Diamond) I wonder why they didn't squeeze in cards like Lion's Eye Diamond, Gaea's Cradle, The Abyss, The Tabernacle etc. while they were at it.

[joemauer]

Wizards were coming out with premium foils of Reserved list cards pre-2011 (cough: Phyrexian Dreadnought, Mox Diamond) I wonder why they didn't squeeze in cards like Lion's Eye Diamond, Gaea's Cradle, The Abyss, The Tabernacle etc. while they were at it.

Wizards were probably busy buying up the world's supply of The Abyss along side Starcitygames.
Small conspiracy theory here but perhaps Wizards and Starcitygames are creating a new organization dubbed ORLCEC or Organization of the Reserve List Cards Exporting Companies.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Jesus I know right?

I hate how Standard has turned into such a bomby format.
It seems like the bombs and gotten 10x stronger with an overabundance of 4-6 CMC game-enders and the answers just keep getting worse and farther apart.
When every other deck relies on dropping a 6CMC creature and LD costs minimum 4 and just keeps getting worse something seems wrong.
Can we SERIOUSLY get a Stone Rain that only hits non-basics at the very least, or a Ghost Quarter that has a may for the opponent to allow a mutual basic land search, or Tec Edge?

Yeah, Standard has been so awful lately. Cards like Thragtusk are so dumb. The only profitable answers to it are your own bombs like Oliva Voldaren or your own Thragtusk, because counters are complete crap now and no matter what you do to it with a removal spell, you come out way behind. Wizards just went absolutely apeshit with regards to value creatures. If it doesn't have ETB effects, it's an on curve Undying dude. Or both. Things like HEART OF THE CARDS-ing a Bonfire are also pretty stupid, but I guess I can't be too mad at giving Red a good card.

I wish there was some way to fight this, but based on some of the big tourney coverage I've seen...it's just trading bombs with crazy ETB effects or praying your zombies get there before Thragtusk puts the game out of reach. Welp, hope I can find some good Legacy action or get into Modern...because I really don't like RtR draft much. Fucking rats.


That's not really true if you look back in Standard history. It has happened, but it's not like every time 2 3cmc LD spells fall in the same rotation LD was played to even moderate success.
Regardless of that though there's a huge amount of space between Stone Rain + Molten Rain and the best LD available being Ghost Quarter and the next best option being unplayable.

The funniest thing is, as someone who has played pretty much every LD deck besides Ernham-Geddon, is that it's not about the 3 CMC land destruction as much as it's a mix of other factors. You need versatile land destruction like Avalanche Riders, Creeping Mold, Demolish, Aftershock, and Wrecking Ball that can all do double duty. You need a critical mass of good mana acceleration, especially stuff that taps for many red mana. You need a resilient creature to be your win con, like Troll Ascetic. And you want something like Plow Under or Wildfire to seal the game. And even then, you have a deck that can easily lose to itself or to a low-curve aggro deck or any deck that sideboards well.

The only time LD has ever been a Tier One force in a format, yeah, they did do it with Stone Rain plus Molten Rain...but they also had a couple 2 CMC "LD" spells in the form of Boomerang and Eye of Nowhere,

[Octopusman]

I believe the link being referred to is here (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/32012175825/if-fork-is-on-the-reserved-list-why-is-reverberate).

Close.

Although that's a good one since he specifically cites Reverberate, I found the post I was talking about here: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/34154074798/the-reserved-list-only-counts-a-card-as-being-a

This specifically calls out using subtype to "dodge" the list's criteria.

[FieryBalrog]

Fork makes the copy red, though. Whether or not that's different enough is up to interpretation.

"functionally different cards that are virtually not(hardly) different at all from the original"

I don't think many people out there would agree that Fork vs Reverberate doesn't fall into this category. How often is it going to come up? 0.1% of the time you cast Fork/Reverberate? Even the hydroblast argument is dumb (apart from almost never being relevant) because you can just hydroblast the Reverberate.

Edit: Well, nevermind then, because....


I believe the link being referred to is here (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/32012175825/if-fork-is-on-the-reserved-list-why-is-reverberate).

That link sucks. Ugh. Wizards policy towards the RL has been getting actively more idiotic by the year, instead of less. For a while there was some serious progress with the Judge foils and the like, as well as the Reverberate type of exception.

[alderon666]

Snow Dual lands would be very different! You could play bombs like Skred and Scrying Sheets!

[sherko7]

I guess one way to "reprint" the dual lands would be to print out a land with the "Mountain" and "Forest" ability but would only be a "Land - Mountain"... Something like that. :laugh:

[Finn]

This is what I said. You make them not have the basic land types but the you give them colors. They are too powerful for Standard so they go into a block that has effects that count the number of cards of a color such as Blood Oath or Psychic Allergy. Also, Grixis Grimblade and company. In Legacy, there are already advantages to having lands with a color to offset the problems associated with unfetchability - such as Force of Will and Necra Sanctuary. That second one is a stretch but there is a potential benefit to playing one or two in a deck. The argument that these lands would simply get used in addition to original duals is only true in a tiny fraction of cases. Most decks fear Wasteland (and red elemental blast) enough to keep basics available. But the pull of these lands to increase the efficiency would be very real. That would diminish the role of duals some. Then you print legendary duals to reduce it even more. Who would be unwilling to drop a single legendary dual in a deck? Now you only need one or two duals in every deck instead of four.

[dunk]

Who would be unwilling to drop a single legendary dual in a deck?

Me.
Getting Wastelanded with split second is not funny.


Btw I don't think that it's worth talking about possible dual reprints - we got shocklands, and that is it. They are fine for EDH, and I guess that is what counts. Maybe we will get "real" duals that always come into play tapped - but it's very unlikely that we will ever see a real equivalent.

[Lord Seth]

Me.
Getting Wastelanded with split second is not funny.


Btw I don't think that it's worth talking about possible dual reprints - we got shocklands, and that is it. They are fine for EDH, and I guess that is what counts. Maybe we will get "real" duals that always come into play tapped - but it's very unlikely that we will ever see a real equivalent.Wouldn't those be strictly worse than the shocklands?

[dunk]

Wouldn't those be strictly worse than the shocklands?

Of course. I just phrased my sentence in a weird way; actually I mean that we will see that kind of card as a filler for EDH decks.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm not sure why some of you guys keep coming up with solutions to fix Legacy's problem when WotC has made it clear they are not going to try and fix said problem.