Alchemist Orb (UG Combo)

[slave]

Hi all,

I've been working on a deck idea for a little while, tryin to mke a deck with Laboratory Maniac that's actually playable competitively.
Doomsday and Paradigm SHift both offer the potential to win with card.
Doomsday can be quite powerful, and is definitely a good option if you can achieve 3 black mana in a combo deck.
Paradigm Shift is more problematic, and demands you play cycling cards to win and hardcast Laboratory Maniac.
Cephalid Illusionist & Shuko is another way to mill your own library, but is also vulnerable to the most common form of hate, creature removal.

Another way, is a combo involving Mesmeric Orb & Basalt Monolith.
Acceleration here is easy, as we have no need of coloured acceleration, and both cards are tutorable with the same tutor.
Ideally, with both combo pieces, an Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors and any other land in hand, we can potentially win on turn 2.
This has the potential to be faster than Doomsday, and is more resilient than Paradigm Shift.


**UPDATE**
The list I've been finding the best consistency with is this;
U/W
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Mesmeric Orb
1 Laboratory Maniac, 1 Phantasmagorian, 1 Angel of Glory, 1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls, 1 Dread Return.
4 Narcomoeba
4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 2 Preordain
4 Enlightened Tutor, 2 Fabricate
4 Force of Will, 4 Daze
Land;
3 Ancient Tomb, 2 City of Traitors.
4 Islands, 1 Plains, 4 Tundra, blue fetches to make up 19 lands total.

There is also a U/B list running Cabal Therapy, a single Bridge from Below and slightly different support.
====================================================================================================

Here's my rough intial list from post#1, read further........ the deck has moved on from here quite a bit!!!
4 Aphetto Alchemist
4 Seeker of Skybreak
4 Narcomoeba
4 Wake Thrasher
1 Laboratory Maniac
//
1 Dread Return
4 Spell Pierce
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Brainstorm
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Aether Vial
3 Edge of Autumn
1 Echoing Truth
And about 19 to 20 lands, including Fetches and basics, with a couple City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb

So the plan is simple, have an untapper in play and play Mesmeric Orb.
Untap and mill your deck, and play Dread Return for Maniac.
Then if you're lucky, you can use Edge of Autumn to cycle for the win.
If not, hopefully you can use counter to protect you until your next turn.

At best, it'll get a win on turn 3 without any 2mana-producing lands.
Alternative win-con is Wake Thrasher.
Muddle is there to transmute for any 2CMC's.

I would really like the deck to have more protection, but I'm not sure what to change.
Should I remove Brainstorm and try to fit in a Counter-Top package?

How can I improve this deck?

[Kich867]

I would also run the Monolith that Four Houseman runs as an extra untapper. Given this is a combo deck, I'm inclined to say you should probably be running things like Cabal Therapy.

I like the thought here though.

I wonder if it'd be relevant to play things like.. Bridge From Below.. that'd be a different deck but, this gives me ideas haha.

[Aggro_zombies]

4 Muddle, 4 Spell Pierce does not feel like enough protection. Also, you're short on instant-speed draw spells - you don't really want to pass the turn and bank on permission (especially because an StP backed with FoW is likely game) and I don't think Edge of Autumn is good enough. Given that you're a combo deck looking to assemble two distinct cards, you may want more cantrips - Ponder would normally be my first stop, but Thought Scour may be better for you since it mills you a bit and is an instant. You probably also want Force of Will.

I don't see Wake Trasher ever being relevant. If you have to attack them to death with Thrasher, you're probably losing.

Vial seems iffy. I know it makes free, uncounterable EoT untapper guys, but it feels like the parts of your combo most relevant to an opponent's removal are Orb and Alchemist, and Vial doesn't really help there.

[slave]

I would also run the Monolith that Four Houseman runs as an extra untapper. Given this is a combo deck, I'm inclined to say you should probably be running things like Cabal Therapy.

Grim Monolith is useful, as are artifact lands, but this deck really doesn't need a huge amount of mana to win.
With free cycling-draw, it only needs two lands.


4 Muddle, 4 Spell Pierce does not feel like enough protection. Also, you're short on instant-speed draw spells - you don't really want to pass the turn and bank on permission (especially because an StP backed with FoW is likely game) and I don't think Edge of Autumn is good enough. Given that you're a combo deck looking to assemble two distinct cards, you may want more cantrips - Ponder would normally be my first stop, but Thought Scour may be better for you since it mills you a bit and is an instant. You probably also want Force of Will.

I don't see Wake Trasher ever being relevant. If you have to attack them to death with Thrasher, you're probably losing.

Vial seems iffy. I know it makes free, uncounterable EoT untapper guys, but it feels like the parts of your combo most relevant to an opponent's removal are Orb and Alchemist, and Vial doesn't really help there.

You're dead right - there's isn't enough protection at all.

I don't like Thought Scour, as it's very possible to get my win-con extracted.
I tried a typical Ponder/Brainstorm/Preordain suite initially, and it's difficult to fit all the parts of the deck in, and enough counter also.
I do need more instant speed draw - cycling is better for this, as you can't counter it with Force etc. Usually my move would simply be to wait until someone casts Swords/Lightning Bolt etc., on the Maniac and then cycle for the win.
I may get rid of Autumn, and just put in Sensei's Top instead for something that's always useful.

Wake Thrasher is for those games when my combo gets screwed by discard/extraction or I struggle to find my pieces. I can activate my untappers on my opponents' turn, making Thrasher a giant defender, or attacker.
In the testing I've done, it's ability to get damage through without trample/unblockable etc is limited, but without an alternate win, I'm asking to get raped by discard every game.
If we look at decks that run little to no creatures, Thrasher might be useful.
I may try Spellskite.....

RE: Vial. Yeah it's something I've been testing.
Considering I can tap & untap it on the same turn potentially, it's been useful to get around blue counter. Getting into counter wars is NOT what I want to do with a deck like this, I wanna bypass counter and just protect the combo from removal.
I'm still not 100% sure about this inclusion myself, but it's been good so far.

Force of Will would definitely be a good inclusion for the deck.
I'll try and see what I can do to fit in some of you suggestions, and see how the deck runs.

Cheers!

[Aggro_zombies]

I would want to start with this, I guess:

4 Alchemist
3 Seeker
4 Narcomoeba
1 Lab Maniac

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

4 Spell Pierce
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will

4 Mesmeric Orb
1 Dread Return

...which leaves room for 21 lands.

The more I think about it, the more I like a Cephalid Breakfast shell for this kind of thing. en-Kor + Illusionist seems better than Orb + untap guy because the combo effectively has haste, both halves work with Vial, and you can go for a Living Wish board if you really want to find everything but DR.

[Opaco]

Grim Monolith is useful, as are artifact lands, but this deck really doesn't need a huge amount of mana to win.
With free cycling-draw, it only needs two lands.


The Monolith that was used by Four Horsemen was not Grim Monolith, but Basalt Monolith, wich has the ability to untap itself with its own produced mana, triggering Orb. As is an untapper that is inmune to creature removal and doesn't have summoning sickness for just one more mana than Seeker I'd run it over the elf. With less cretures I'd cut vials for more cantrips or some tutoring, like Intuition or Lim-Dûl's Vault.

Also if playing Cabal Therapy, I'd change some number of cantrips with Gitaxian Probe, as it's a free draw for triggering Maniac and valuable information to know when to go off/what to name with therapy.

[Poron]

it is a 3 cards combo that suffers to graveyard hate (the most common kind of hate)

does it deserve your time? mine surely not

[-Spooky-]

There is already a deck that uses alchemist and orb, as well as basalt monilith. The deck is called Boo Berry. There has been some discussion regarding the deck at the MTGSalvation forums.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=442634

If I were to run a strictly non budget version, it would look like this...


4 Narcomoeba
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Phantasmagorian

4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Fabricate
1 Dread Return

7 Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

[Anusien]

The Angel of Glory's Rise kill takes at least two removal spells to disrupt. This is super interesting.

I'll also point out here that Dark Confidant is a Human Wizard.

[Octopusman]

I still feel like thought lash should be in here. It's one card instead of 2, doesn't have summoning sickness, and prevents damage along the way. I would scrap the whole graveyard things and go with this approach. I might splash other colors (imperial recruiter, blasts), and perhaps include more free protection like pact of negation and free draw (street wraith, gitaxian probe) to win on the spot after resolving the maniac.
Wrong approach? Maybe. My 2 cents.

Good luck,

[Anusien]

I still feel like thought lash should be in here. It's one card instead of 2, doesn't have summoning sickness, and prevents damage along the way. I would scrap the whole graveyard things and go with this approach. I might splash other colors (imperial recruiter, blasts), and perhaps include more free protection like pact of negation and free draw (street wraith, gitaxian probe) to win on the spot after resolving the maniac.
Wrong approach? Maybe. My 2 cents.

Good luck,
How are you getting Lab Maniac onto the battlefield? Thought Lash exiles cards, it doesn't mill them.

[Octopusman]

How are you getting Lab Maniac onto the battlefield? Thought Lash exiles cards, it doesn't mill them.

You hard cast it.

[Aggro_zombies]

You hard cast it.
So you need 3 mana + 4 mana + at least 1 mana extra to draw as opposed to 2 mana + 3 mana?

I feel like the Hardcast Maniac route is even less viable than the Loses to On-Board Ooze route. You're just way too slow versus pretty much anything else in the format, and you lose pretty hard to creature removal since they kill Maniac in response to your draw spell.

[Octopusman]

So you need 3 mana + 4 mana + at least 1 mana extra to draw as opposed to 2 mana + 3 mana?

I feel like the Hardcast Maniac route is even less viable than the Loses to On-Board Ooze route. You're just way too slow versus pretty much anything else in the format, and you lose pretty hard to creature removal since they kill Maniac in response to your draw spell.

Considering the 2 mana + 3 mana option requires summoning sickness unless it's a monolith, it takes as many turns as the 3 mana and 4 mana option (sol land, 2 land drops).
Graveyard is too risky. It's the same as losing if they remove your maniac. Ideally, you use your permission to resolve maniac and protect maniac. If you have multiple draw spells, especially free ones, you can use the 2nd one to win before the removal resolves.

If, If, If, If... I know.

Another questions is, why go through all the trouble resolving maniac when you can resolve a show and tell which is almost flat out better?

Even if you go the graveyard route, you still lose to creature removal. Maniac is the only win con. Just seems natural to have as much permission as possible. Permission, tutors, small package win con seems best to me rather than filling half the deck with bad combo.

I'm sure someone will figure it out eventually. I'm thinking some kind of spell that both removes the library in exchange for putting a creature into play with haste or something from the library. Bends over to cage? You bet.

[Anusien]

You hard cast it.
I congratulate you on saying, "[Thought Lash is] one card instead of 2" and then suggesting a two card combo (especially one that that costs 2 more mana). I admire the way you won't let your posts be dictated by fact checkers. Have you considered running for the Republican Party's nomination for President?

[Anusien]

It is worth pointing out that the two best ways to empty your library (Nomad en-Kor + Cephalid Illusionist or Basalt Monolith + Mesmeric Orb) win on either turn 2 or turn 3 without acceleration, no summoning sickness involved.

Also, the Angel/Azami/Lab Maniac beats at least two removal spells, and 3 if they don't have lethal. And with one more slot, you can actually beat UNLIMITED numbers of removal spells (not hyperbole).

[Octopusman]

I congratulate you on saying, "[Thought Lash is] one card instead of 2" and then suggesting a two card combo (especially one that that costs 2 more mana). I admire the way you won't let your posts be dictated by fact checkers. Have you considered running for the Republican Party's nomination for President?

I appreciate your eagerness to denigrate me.

"[Thought Lash is] one card instead of 2" meaning it gets rid of the library all by itself instead of needing a tapper/untapper and orb. Don't forget that you still need to resolve dread return even though it costs 0.
As I said, the 2 card combo I suggested costing 2 more mana is irrelevant since you're still going off on the same turn unless you're using a monolith if you're making your land drops.

Makes sense?

[emidln]

It is worth pointing out that the two best ways to empty your library (Nomad en-Kor + Cephalid Illusionist or Basalt Monolith + Mesmeric Orb) win on either turn 2 or turn 3 without acceleration, no summoning sickness involved.

Also, the Angel/Azami/Lab Maniac beats at least two removal spells, and 3 if they don't have lethal. And with one more slot, you can actually beat UNLIMITED numbers of removal spells (not hyperbole).

I'm sorta curious as to what the extra slot is. The best I've come up with so far are Sylvan Safekeeper or a 2nd Lab Maniac. The 2nd Lab Maniac is particularly potent since you have to kill both and it's an extra wizard to draw with.

[-Spooky-]

I'm sorta curious as to what the extra slot is. The best I've come up with so far are Sylvan Safekeeper or a 2nd Lab Maniac. The 2nd Lab Maniac is particularly potent since you have to kill both and it's an extra wizard to draw with.

Well if you are running them, Aphetto Alchemist can do the trick. He gets rezzed during the combo and can tap as a wizard to draw you a card. So if they try to remove maniac you can tap him in response. If they respond with another removal spell you just respond by tapping a different guy. Rinse repeat depending on how many alchemists you have. My list opted out of using them and just used More Fabricates and Preordains, but I can see a list using him being successful.

[Anusien]

I'm sorta curious as to what the extra slot is. The best I've come up with so far are Sylvan Safekeeper or a 2nd Lab Maniac. The 2nd Lab Maniac is particularly potent since you have to kill both and it's an extra wizard to draw with.
Sylvan Safekeeper is pretty sweet because it's a Wizard in addition. But I was referring to Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.

[Darkenslight]

You hard cast it.

Please re-read Angel of Glory's Rise. "All Human cards". so you DR the Angel, get Azami and Lab Maniac and win on the spot.

...I LIKE IT! [/Thor]

[Aggro_zombies]

Please re-read Angel of Glory's Rise. "All Human cards". so you DR the Angel, get Azami and Lab Maniac and win on the spot.

...I LIKE IT! [/Thor]
That's not what he's talking about. He's talking about skipping DR, Angel, and the Orb-Monolith combo altogether and instead hardcasting Maniac and then hardcasting Thought Lash.

[Darkenslight]

That's not what he's talking about. He's talking about skipping DR, Angel, and the Orb-Monolith combo altogether and instead hardcasting Maniac and then hardcasting Thought Lash.

Yeah, my bad. Still, I'm pretty sure the Glory's Rise kill takes less slots than the Thought Lash kill. However, a transformational SB, removing the GY-based kill for a non- grave-based kill seems like a strong plan.

[-Spooky-]

Yeah, my bad. Still, I'm pretty sure the Glory's Rise kill takes less slots than the Thought Lash kill. However, a transformational SB, removing the GY-based kill for a non- grave-based kill seems like a strong plan.

Not when the Non-graveyard based plan costs 7 mana. If I were to do a transformational sideboard it would be for a show and tell based combo. Mono blue with 12 cantrips would be perfect for it. Dream Halls or just straight up Show and Tell into Emrakul would probably be the optimal choices, though I can see somethign with artifacts being viable simply because of Fabricate.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah, my bad. Still, I'm pretty sure the Glory's Rise kill takes less slots than the Thought Lash kill.
It does not.

Thoughtlash takes the place of the Orb/Monolith engine (4 slots instead of 8, or 12 if you count Fabricate). All four Maniacs take the place of Narcomoeba, the Angel kill, and Dread Return (4 slots instead of 8). So you're opening up at least half of the Angel kill if you go with Thoughtlash instead.

The problem, of course, is that you have to pay :4::u::u::u: instead of :5:.

[-Spooky-]

It does not.

Thoughtlash takes the place of the Orb/Monolith engine (4 slots instead of 8, or 12 if you count Fabricate). All four Maniacs take the place of Narcomoeba, the Angel kill, and Dread Return (4 slots instead of 8). So you're opening up at least half of the Angel kill if you go with Thoughtlash instead.

The problem, of course, is that you have to pay :4::u::u::u: instead of :5:.

It is also that :4::u::u::u: that makes the combo unplayable. =/

[Darkenslight]

It is also that :4::u::u::u: that makes the combo unplayable. =/

You forgot the turn, as well for the Thought Lash kill. Rememebr the CU of Thought Lash as well as for the failure to pay. With the Angel kill, all that has to happen is for your library to be empty and in your graveyard(EDIT: and it to be your turn.).

However, I stand corrected on the slot issue.

[kiblast]

Well, Thought Lash is decent because it has some marginal utility pre combo:

-lets you play Sensei's divining top which is very good in a combo deck that needs 2 cards together to go off.

-Playing Top, you can dig incredibly faster by activating various times Thought Lash last ability to rfg the top cards if you don't need them.

-You can play Counterbalance which is good considering you need to protect Maniac from removal spells.

-Top draws a card when your library is empty.

[Aggro_zombies]

The biggest issue with the Thought Lash kill is speed.

1) Triple blue for Lash + Maniac makes it less amenable to an Ancient Tomb manabase than Orb/Monolith.

2) If you cast Maniac first, it needs to survive for an entire turn cycle. This is a problem because almost every playable removal spell in Legacy can kill a 2/2 blue creature for three.

3) If you cast Maniac first and are using Ancient Tomb, the earliest you can go off is turn three. If you cast Thought Lash first and are using Ancient Tomb, the earliest you can go off is turn four.

These kills are probably too slow considering how disruptable the combo is: Pithing Needle, enchantment hate, creature removal, discard or counters hitting your pieces, etc. The Angel kill is also susceptible to disruption but is potentially faster, giving your opponent less time to come up with a way to stop you. If you want a slower deck with a combo finish, you probably just want to be playing RIP + Helm since RIP + Energy Field buys you tons of time, all the pieces can be found with one tutor (Enlightened), and you can build a decent control deck in those colors.

[Darkenslight]

These kills are probably too slow considering how disruptable the combo is: Pithing Needle, enchantment hate, creature removal, discard or counters hitting your pieces, etc. The Angel kill is also susceptible to disruption but is potentially faster, giving your opponent less time to come up with a way to stop you. If you want a slower deck with a combo finish, you probably just want to be playing RIP + Helm since RIP + Energy Field buys you tons of time, all the pieces can be found with one tutor (Enlightened), and you can build a decent control deck in those colors.

To be fair, Thought Lash exiles your library should you choose not to pay the CU.

[kiblast]

The biggest issue with the Thought Lash kill is speed.

1) Triple blue for Lash + Maniac makes it less amenable to an Ancient Tomb manabase than Orb/Monolith.

2) If you cast Maniac first, it needs to survive for an entire turn cycle. This is a problem because almost every playable removal spell in Legacy can kill a 2/2 blue creature for three.

3) If you cast Maniac first and are using Ancient Tomb, the earliest you can go off is turn three. If you cast Thought Lash first and are using Ancient Tomb, the earliest you can go off is turn four.

These kills are probably too slow considering how disruptable the combo is: Pithing Needle, enchantment hate, creature removal, discard or counters hitting your pieces, etc. The Angel kill is also susceptible to disruption but is potentially faster, giving your opponent less time to come up with a way to stop you. If you want a slower deck with a combo finish, you probably just want to be playing RIP + Helm since RIP + Energy Field buys you tons of time, all the pieces can be found with one tutor (Enlightened), and you can build a decent control deck in those colors.

First of all, if I would like to play a fast combo deck in legacy, I'd play Ubr Ant or Tes.
I think it's impossible to use the ''earliest you can go off'' approach on this deck. It's totally wrong, you can't think in terms of speed when your combo is based on a 2/2 cc3 creature. I'd rather build the deck thinking at a control combo approach, as Rest in Peace combo decks.

Counterbalance makes your combo easy to protect.

Every combo deck which is not Dredge is susceptible to Discard, Counters and a form of specific hate (either enchantment, creature hate, grave hate...) but playing counterbalance and going monoblue lets you play an insane amount of counters since your combo package is just 8 cards. The only things you really need to worry about are: Krosan Grip, and even in that case you can easily play around it by leaving a cc3 on top of your deck (playing Counterbalance) or post side you just Clique it; and Abrupt Decay, which can easily kill CB lock or Maniac, but doesnt stop Thought Lash from being an excellent digging machine for 3 turns with a top in play, Lash + Top lets you basically instant speed-Vampiric for another Maniac.

I'm not saying that Thought Lash is broken, I'm just saying that it's worth tinkering with.

[emidln]

First of all, if I would like to play a fast combo deck in legacy, I'd play Ubr Ant or Tes.
I think it's impossible to use the ''earliest you can go off'' approach on this deck. It's totally wrong, you can't think in terms of speed when your combo is based on a 2/2 cc3 creature. I'd rather build the deck thinking at a control combo approach, as Rest in Peace combo decks.

Counterbalance makes your combo easy to protect.

Every combo deck which is not Dredge is susceptible to Discard, Counters and a form of specific hate (either enchantment, creature hate, grave hate...) but playing counterbalance and going monoblue lets you play an insane amount of counters since your combo package is just 8 cards. The only things you really need to worry about are: Krosan Grip, and even in that case you can easily play around it by leaving a cc3 on top of your deck (playing Counterbalance) or post side you just Clique it; and Abrupt Decay, which can easily kill CB lock or Maniac, but doesnt stop Thought Lash from being an excellent digging machine for 3 turns with a top in play, Lash + Top lets you basically instant speed-Vampiric for another Maniac.

I'm not saying that Thought Lash is broken, I'm just saying that it's worth tinkering with.

H

ow does a counterbalance with an empty library protect lab man?

[kiblast]

H

ow does a counterbalance with an empty library protect lab man?

It protects him pre combo? You don't always have the chance to drop first Lash. For example, you could play Lab Maniac first safely under a Countertop softlock to play around daze, and in the next turns you find multiple lands so you can play Lash playing around Pierce.

Top also gives you the possibility to play Devastation Tide.

[-Spooky-]

It protects him pre combo? You don't always have the chance to drop first Lash. For example, you could play Lab Maniac first safely under a Countertop softlock to play around daze, and in the next turns you find multiple lands so you can play Lash playing around Pierce.

Top also gives you the possibility to play Devastation Tide.

I think this thread is starting to deviate from its original topic of orb combined with alchemist or basalt monilith. This counterbalance/rest in peace/thoughtlash deck is something different all together.

[1maarten1]

Cool idea! I also like the idea that against decks that bring in graveyard hate, you could just board in 3 extra Maniacs and just hardcast it for the win.

Problem would be dealing with things that stop you from milling, so I guess we need some artifact hate? A transforming sideboard could also be nice but I dont really have a clue on how that should look :P. Anyway Ill start testing it a bit!

Suggestions for a sideboard? Im planning on starting with the list spooky posted on page 1.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think you want to go with Orb+Monolith rather than one of the untapper guys+Orb. That said, you probably want ways to protect your graveyard, to protect Lab Maniac from extra removal spells, and ways to fight artifact hate. Extra counters will help with all of those; bounce and extra Maniacs will help with on-board graveyard hate.

[slave]

Thanks for letting me know about BooBerry - I had no idea this was a deck already.


I think this thread is starting to deviate from its original topic of orb combined with alchemist or basalt monilith. This counterbalance/rest in peace/thoughtlash deck is something different all together.

I initially wondered whether CounterTop could make it into the deck, as Sensei's Top gives you the draw to win.
My old Labmaniac deck ran Paradigm Shift and a couple Thought Lash as backup, so i realise how useful Lash can be for defence as well as enabler.
I'm gonna give a countertop list a try, with plenty of counter and some bounce to try and make the long game, see how it works.....


Cool idea! I also like the idea that against decks that bring in graveyard hate, you could just board in 3 extra Maniacs and just hardcast it for the win.
Problem would be dealing with things that stop you from milling, so I guess we need some artifact hate?

Stopping us milling? I take it we're talking about Pithing Needle and Alchemist?, but Monolith is a mana ability so we should be right.
What else is there that can stop us?

As far as sideboard, I would have thought ways to prevent discard and graveyard shenanigans for a start.

[Aggro_zombies]

Stopping us milling? I take it we're talking about Pithing Needle and Alchemist?, but Monolith is a mana ability so we should be right.
Needle should stop Monolith from using its untap ability.

[slave]

Needle should stop Monolith from using its untap ability.

Got it.
And pithing needle is pretty common SB material.....I may try lists with Alphetto, and without, and see how it stands up.
So far I'm not sure, as without Aphetto we run the risk of not having enough creatures for Dread Return.
I'm liking Countertop so far, backed up with another 8 counter.

I'm gonna try see how we go with a white splash for Enlightened Tutor instead of Fabricate aswell, as it's so much more useful for setting up a Top etc.
Splashin white for E-tutor would also open up creature removal like Terminus & StP, and we could just hold a whole lot of 1-of artifact/enchantment answers for the sideboard without having to dilute our maindeck much at all.
Having StP or bounce seems fairly necessary to me, as a landed Elesh Norn is GG otherwise

[-Spooky-]

Got it.
And pithing needle is pretty common SB material.....I may try lists with Alphetto, and without, and see how it stands up.
So far I'm not sure, as without Aphetto we run the risk of not having enough creatures for Dread Return.
I'm liking Countertop so far, backed up with another 8 counter.

I'm gonna try see how we go with a white splash for Enlightened Tutor instead of Fabricate aswell, as it's so much more useful for setting up a Top etc.
Splashin white for E-tutor would also open up creature removal like Terminus & StP, and we could just hold a whole lot of 1-of artifact/enchantment answers for the sideboard without having to dilute our maindeck much at all.
Having StP or bounce seems fairly necessary to me, as a landed Elesh Norn is GG otherwise

I really don't think stp is where this deck wants to be. If elesh norn is being played, it is in a graveyard based deck. You should just be playing graveyard hate against them in this case. If are worried about hate bears, there are much better options out there. Beyond this, reanimator is a pretty fringe strategy nowadays. Boarding in swords just for him seems pretty sub par to me.

[Anusien]

If you add in a Bridge from Below, in most cases after you combo, you can Cabal Therapy 4 times and still have enough creatures to cast Dread Return.

[slave]

Yeah, good call Spooky, StP just clutters up the deck.


If you add in a Bridge from Below, in most cases after you combo, you can Cabal Therapy 4 times and still have enough creatures to cast Dread Return.

LOL.
I really like that idea!
Makes me wonder .......
But I kinda like how we could still combo with Rest In Peace in play, just by bringing 3 Labmaniac's in from the SB and avoiding the GY altogether.

Okay, so I've been playing around with about 3 or 4 different lists, and by and large I think we should be trying to combo ASAP.
The more controlling lists don't really seem to work that well due to running so many maindeck cards to combo out.
Aphetto is give or take, I don't think he's necessary at all if we're running E-tutor with Basalt.
CounterTop is a nice thing to fall back on, both parts can be fetched with E-tutor.
One interaction I'm liking so far is screwing with Miracles. Put Mesmeric Orb into play as early as possible.......

Here's a list I've been testing.
Since there's no Aphetto in here, this is more of a "Mesmeric Monolith" deck.
20 Lands, including 4 islands, 1 plains, fetches & Tundra. Still testing with Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors might try lotus petal too.)
7 Creatures; 4 Narcomoeba, 1 Labmaniac, (1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls & 1 Angel of Glory's Rise)
4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder, 3 Daze, 1 Dread Return, 4 Force of Will, 4 Enlightened Tutor.
4 Sensei's Top, 4 Mesmeric Orb, 4 Basalt Monolith
3 Counterbalance, 1 O-Ring
SIDEBOARD
Comprised of mostly singletons so far that can be fetched with E-tutor, like Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, T-Crypt etc etc.
Also a way to kill Gaddock Teeg x4
3 Labmaniac.

So it's capable of turn 3 wins, provided we don't run into heavy counter or heavy disruption...yeah right.
And it has no creature removal, but we do have counter and counterTop to slow them down a bit.
I'm finding that most of the time when I untap/combo out, I'll have a Top in play usually.....so Azami/Angel = :cool:

Thoughts?

[slave]

A Turn 1 Ancient Tomb with a Top in hand is probably the best way to open the game with this deck I'm finding.

Whilst playing Mesmeric Orb early isn't the best play, doing it does work very well with Top, as you can just place the card(s) you want gone on the top and next turn they're going to the graveyard.
Hello Narcomoeba!
It helps to be less reliant on fetches and Brainstorm and I've never felt Top was this much of an advantage before, that said, it does expose us to Extraction, so I'd prefer to play Mesmeric as late as I can.
I gave the Shuko / Cephalid Illusionist combo a try too, but I'm not sure - creature removal is a lot more common than artifact removal, especially game1.

I've tested with 4 Ancient Tomb, 3 AT's and 2 City of Traitors and with a 2/2 Split.
Ancient Tomb as a 4-of runs very well, but the life loss is an issue against Burn/Sligh etc.
The 3/2 split may be better.

Lotus Petal is pretty good too, and helps gives more opportunity for a 1st turn top activation too.
I'm still not clear on absolute numbers, but having around 18-20 lands with 3-4 Petals seems nice so far.

CON'S;
Dread Return is proving problematic.
Not just against decks running graveyard hate or Gaddock Teeg - but because if I have one in hand and I don't draw into Brainstorm, I can't get in into the graveyard.
I'm gonna try running two and see if this helps a bit more.

I just don't have enough targets for Force of Will - most of the time I'm keeping a Daze, Brainstorm or COunterbalance in hand for it (just in case), so I may swap it for Spell Pierce.
Thoughts?

[-Spooky-]

DO NOT run another dread return. Look at the list I posted before. Phantasmagorian is in there for a reason. If you are ever stuck with combo pieces in hand, even multiples, he gets them in the graveyard where they need to be after you mill him there. He should solve the issue for you.

[slave]

There is already a deck that uses alchemist and orb, as well as basalt monilith. The deck is called Boo Berry. [/deck]

Cheers for posting this list Spooky.
How does the deck fair competitively?

[Kich867]

If you add in a Bridge from Below, in most cases after you combo, you can Cabal Therapy 4 times and still have enough creatures to cast Dread Return.

Honestly this is what I'm getting out of the deck. Make a consistent infinite mill engine into 4-5x Cabal Therapies (because you can actually cast yours from hand) into guaranteed 16 zombies then dread return a flamekin zealot and alpha swing them, or lab maniac and probe them.

To me I get this idea for an Orb/Monolith Dredge deck where instead of hitting turn one or two, you're hitting turn 3 or 4 with Force backup, Daze backup, and disrupt them turns one and two so they can't fuck with your combo.

[Anusien]

DO NOT run another dread return. Look at the list I posted before. Phantasmagorian is in there for a reason. If you are ever stuck with combo pieces in hand, even multiples, he gets them in the graveyard where they need to be after you mill him there. He should solve the issue for you.
I am pretty sure Fabricate is garbage. I think you want to build around this core:

4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Narcoemoba
1 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac

4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Assuming you're right about 19 land, there is room for 4 more cards. This may be some combination of Preordain, Daze, or other things.

[slave]

If you add in a Bridge from Below, in most cases after you combo, you can Cabal Therapy 4 times and still have enough creatures to cast Dread Return.

I've been giving a UB list a try, and it's not a bad idea being able to use the Therapies twice.
Given we can go off on turn 3 thereafter, Counterbalance shouldn't be too necessary if we're running Therapy.
I still like Top though.....synergy between Top and Mesmeric Orb is cute, however, Orb works well with Ponder & Brainstorm too and they allow us to draw.

Fabricate & Muddle/Transmute cards seem too slow for this deck, even though Muddle is useful for counter.
E-tutor is nice, but I feel we can't fit this & Therapy in the same deck.

Gitaxian Probe seems unnecessary to me.
Game1, when we combo out with Angel of Glory, Azami & Labman, we have the ability to tap two wizards (draw two) even without running Aphetto Alchemist.
And if we have a Top in play, that's three draw's potentially, which we can put on the stack one at a time, at instant speed, getting around any threats to our labman or Stifle effects.
That said;
Post sideboard, they'll be bringing in all their Graveyard hate. So we can either play away from the GY, or pack answers to their hate.
If we board in 3 Labman and play it from our hand without Dread return, even then, probe is Sorcery speed. We'd need cycling cards I think to get around their Daze/Force's and creature removal. To make this work, I reckon a jack-of-all-trades Tutor to fish out Labman, artifacts etc. for game 2 and 3 is gonna be very useful.
.....or we just pack in a whole lot of instant speed bounce and proceed as per normal on our combo turn.
Given the amount of cantrip/filter this deck could be capable of, I'm leaning towards playing bounce.

[Aggro_zombies]

Therapies, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, and Flusterstorm will all help you handle graveyard hate. Deathmark will kill Scavenging Ooze, Thalia, and Gaddock Teeg. Pithing Needle will handle Crypt and Relic.

Also keep in mind that being faster gives you a better game against graveyard hate. With the exception of decks with Scavenging Ooze or Rest in Peace in the main, most people are only going to be bringing in 3-4 pieces of graveyard hate, so being fast gives them less chances to draw something relevant. This is partially why the Orb-Monolith and Breakfast kills are preferable to Alchemist-Orb: neither have summoning sickness and both are relatively cheap.

[emidln]

I've liked Lim-Dul's Vault so far. I'm playing something very close to what Anusien suggested with 4 LDV. It has worked out pretty well, although I feel like 19 lands might be too many. In my sideboard, I have 3 Lab Maniac, 4 Thought Lash. It costs a lot more to win with (5 mana vs 7 mana), but it also ignore graveyard hate entirely. Further, you're not realistically casting the combos on the same turn anyway (not on 17-19 lands). Thought Lash is also pretty strong when paired with cantrips and as a stop gap while finding my lab man. I think I'm at 4-5 basics in my 75 with a bunch of fetch lands.

[slave]

Also keep in mind that being faster gives you a better game against graveyard hate. With the exception of decks with Scavenging Ooze or Rest in Peace in the main, most people are only going to be bringing in 3-4 pieces of graveyard hate, so being fast gives them less chances to draw something relevant. This is partially why the Orb-Monolith and Breakfast kills are preferable to Alchemist-Orb: neither have summoning sickness and both are relatively cheap.

THIS ^^^^ is very relevant in the limited testing I've done.
Alchemist is too slow, and I don't wanna have to counter creature removal. Auto-lose to Burn.

I've spent about 4 or 5 hours testing UB & UW lists....
I've tried to put this deck up against decks I know that have answers to our strategy, and so far, I'm thinking the W/U route may have a better time comboing off quicker, and be able to fight through hate better also.
Enlightened Tutor isn't ideal (topdeck instead of in hand), but it does keep our target card protected from sorcery discard.
It can also fetch answers, like Oblivion Ring for SnT decks and cards that rape Labman, like Humility.
And of course we can find our own Sideboard silver bullets, giving us shit to think about.
I feel this is too good not to use it.

Here's my UW list I'm testing;
Must-Runs;
4 Monolith, 4 Orb,
1 Labman, 1 Phantasmagorian, 1 Angel of Glory, 1 Azami Scroll Lady, 1 Dread Return.
4 Narcomoeba
4 Brainstorm, 4 Daze, 4 Enlightened Tutor.
Land;
3 Ancient Tomb, 2 City of Traitors, 4 Islands, 4 Tundra, blue fetches to make up 19.
Preferential cards;
4 Force of Will, 4 Ponder, 4 Preordain

Cards I've been testing;
Daze seems like a must run to me, as we only really need one Island in play for the majority of the game.
Careful Study has been horrible and opens us up to graveyard hate.
Sensei's Divining Top is nice, but it's lack of Synergy with Force (if you choose to run it) makes it questionable. If you tap it, you also wreak your next draw, or lose it to Mesmeric Orb. Hmmm.... It's place is really deserving is against someone playing BURN, who could save up 2 Burn spells to kill your Labman when you combo, with top in play they'll 3 to deck us. The times when Top is best, is when the games go long, by which point we're usually dead anyway, so I'm still not sure it's worth it.
Lotus Petal is awesome when it works...but only when you get a hand able to work it. I like it, but as Spooky said, I'm not sure it's necessary material.
Force of Will is nice - but I'm not sure it's necessary in anything but a mainly blue build, as it will limit how you play out your Filter. If you play Lotus/Top/Therapy = run Spell Pierce/Dispel/Spell Snare etc. instead.

I gave the U/B a try for about 40-50 hands or so. (-4 E-tutor, -a number of Ponder/Preordain's, +4 Therapy, +1 Bridge, +4 LDV, i had 19 lands)
emidln - funny you said you were using LDV - cos I tried the same thing! It's not a bad way to find a combo piece(s) and a Therapy, eh?
About the only thing that really stood out to me was the times we get screwed by LDV, putting us in the scary area against Burn/Sligh etc.
The deck seemed just marginally slower to me overall, but also had a way to draw out counter via Therapy, but by the same marginal amount, had the opportunity to slow down our opponents playing combo. I think this lack of pace was mainly to do with needing two coloured lands for LDV, which *might* benefit from running Lotus Petal. Funny how many times this deck can get stuck on one coloured land - maybe the UB version could bump up the lands a touch?
Once it comboed off, due to Therapy it was almost unstoppable. (bar instant sweeper's or Counterbalance etc)
But!
If they're playing a deck without super important combo pieces, (like Burn, or creature decks like Goblins), Therapy isn't as effective b4 combo.

[-Spooky-]

I am pretty sure Fabricate is garbage. I think you want to build around this core:

4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Narcoemoba
1 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac

4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Assuming you're right about 19 land, there is room for 4 more cards. This may be some combination of Preordain, Daze, or other things.

I kind of think Bridge from Below is sub par. It's just another dead card to draw and really doesnt do too much for us.

Fabricate shouldnt be too slow. I have run dream halls for quite some time and intuition, which costs the same, gives the deck insane levels of consistency and is almost never too slow. The decks run identical land bases and almost identical protection and cantrip suites. I really like the idea of having 8-10 counter magic cards, 12 cantrips and 4 tutors, plus the combo. The deck is just ridiculously consistent that way.

Compare the lists if you want, keeping in mind that I have had a great amount of success with dream halls.

Dream Halls-
Creatures-
4 Progenitus

Other Spells-
1 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
1 Coalition Victory
3 Preordain
4 Conflux
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
1 Prismatic Omen
4 Dream Halls

Lands-
2 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
6 Island

Boo Berry-
Creatures-
4 Narcomoeba
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Phantasmagorian

Other Spells
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Fabricate
1 Dread Return

Land-
2 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
6 Island

[slave]

I kind of think Bridge from Below is sub par. It's just another dead card to draw and really doesnt do too much for us.

Fabricate shouldnt be too slow. I have run dream halls for quite some time and intuition, which costs the same, gives the deck insane levels of consistency and is almost never too slow. The decks run identical land bases and almost identical protection and cantrip suites. I really like the idea of having 8-10 counter magic cards, 12 cantrips and 4 tutors, plus the combo. The deck is just ridiculously consistent that way.

Agreed on Bridge - we already have 5 cards we never wanna see turn1.

I have a Dream Halls deck also funnily enough, which I use Counterbalance & Sensei's Top in.
I know it's not optimal compared to Intuition, but I find it works well enough against decks like Delver given the amount of 1-drops we play.
My deck has the Omniscience, Underworld Dreams, Oblivion Ring + Worldfire combo. (i play multiplayer)

RE: Fabricate. Yeah, I it's playable, you're right. I'm impatient, I like combo decks that go BAM!
But I must admit I prefer the E-tutor, simply for it's use as a turn 1 play, and as a way to find an answer or a piece.
Imagine the game2 vs Show and Tell decks where we can just fetch an O-ring and wait until they try to Show?
Being able to fetch any enchantment/artifact on turn 1, whether we have a Tomb/City or not is pretty nice.
...but it does necessitate a very expensive manabase, which I'm not a great fan of to be honest.

[Anusien]

Not liking Bridge from Below but liking Phantasmagorian is silly because they are functionally identical.

[emidln]

Not liking Bridge from Below but liking Phantasmagorian is silly because they are functionally identical.

Except the part where Phantasmagorian doesn't get stuff out of your hand unless you have at least 3 cards. Bridge from Below is better than Phantasmagorian. Bridge lets you target opponents with Therapies while Phantasmagorian only discards combo pieces stuck in your hand (most of the time). I realize that you agree with this, just pointing it out for everyone.

[-Spooky-]

Except the part where Phantasmagorian doesn't get stuff out of your hand unless you have at least 3 cards. Bridge from Below is better than Phantasmagorian. Bridge lets you target opponents with Therapies while Phantasmagorian only discards combo pieces stuck in your hand (most of the time). I realize that you agree with this, just pointing it out for everyone.

Phantasmagorian is one card, bridge from below plus therapies is 5 cards. 4 of which you are going to be using against your opponent before yourself. They can also be countered, which means you simply lose the game if you can't get that angel into the graveyard. Phanatsmagorian's ability can only be stifled.

[Anusien]

If they could counter enough Cabal Therapies to keep you from winning, they are going to counter the Dread Return if you don't cast Therapy, and then you'll lose anyway. This doesn't go the other way though, if they try and stop the Dread Return and you're not in a contrived worst case scenario, you'll blow them out with Therapy.

[Hanni]

Just to play devils advocate here:

This looks like a 2 card 5 mana combo involving 2 non-creature artifacts that don't do (much) on their own. In addition, it opens you up to graveyard hate.

Compared to something like Painter/Stone, you aren't affected by creature removal or Emrakul. Creature removal is more prevalent than graveyard hate, and your combo costs 5 mana instead of 6 (albeit at a minimum of 3 at once). This combo looks much better than Painter/Stone, although Painter/Stone doesn't require additional "dead" cards (like Narcomoeba).

Compared to RIP/Helm, you aren't affected by Needle (although you still get hit by Revoker). Needle is alot less prevalent than graveyard hate, but your combo costs 5 mana instead of 6 (and they need a minimum of 4 at once). However, RIP is valuable on its own, and they don't need to dedicate additional "dead" cards for their combo (like Lab Maniac).

From that analysis, the "turn 3-4 with protection" (non-SNT) 2-card-I-win combo that looks to be better overall is RIP/Helm.

I'm not trying to stifle innovation here... again, just playing devils advocate and trying to put things into comparison.

Do you guys agree, or is there some advantage here (or disadvantage to RIP/Helm) that I missed?

EDIT: I did miss something. You guys can go turn 1-2 Basalt, turn 2-3 Monolith and go off, whereas the 4 minimum for RIP/Helm makes it a full turn slower (and RIP requires white mana vs colorless, so it cannot be cast with Sol Lands).

Looks like the pros and cons for both are in a pretty good flux; both decks look viable to me.

Sorry for the distraction. :laugh:

[slave]

Cheers for the input Hanni,
I'm actually really enjoying this deck so far - but It does have issues with graveyard hate for sure.
Mesmeric Orb does something at least. Post blue filter cards it can pitch those off the top by simply tapping lands potentially.

I don't think This deck is as resilient to hate as RiP/Helm at this stage, but I'll have to see what way we go with sideboards for game 2 & 3, as to how viable this deck may be.
Enlightened Tutor isn't an original idea at all, but I think it may just open the deck up to answer some of the hate we could pack besides bounce.
......maybe.:rolleyes:



Not liking Bridge from Below but liking Phantasmagorian is silly because they are functionally identical.
I disagree that Phantasmagorian and Bridge do the same thing.
Phantasmagorian is a niche card that we may not even need most games, but we can't combo without all of our pieces in the graveyard. It ensures we can get those pieces in there if Preordain or Brainstorm combined with Orb couldn't do it.
Phan. is about making our combo more consistant without costing us any mana, and at instant speed.
Bridge is about making Therapy better and making it safer to go-off post artifact's get'n jiggy.
But even if we strip their hand, Bridge & Therapy still don't guarauntee us a win, and it raises the cards we can't play in the deck to 5 (6 if you include Labman).

Therapies with a Bridge is a cute trick, but Therapies aren't gonna help us a whole lot against the inevitable face-stomping we face against decks like Merfolk, Goblins, Maverick etc. when we can only cast one of them blind, maybe two if we draw another. In the (admittedly limited) testing I did, it's useful, but without more targetted discard like Duress/Thoughtsieze etc in the deck to see their hand, I feel it's not consistent enough.


If they could counter enough Cabal Therapies to keep you from winning, they are going to counter the Dread Return if you don't cast Therapy, and then you'll lose anyway. This doesn't go the other way though, if they try and stop the Dread Return and you're not in a contrived worst case scenario, you'll blow them out with Therapy.

Not necessarily.
They could very well counter an infinite amount of Therapy's by just having a Counterbalance on the table, but not actually have a hard counter in their hand.
Dread Return is at a tricky CMC for Counterbalance decks to handle without counter in hand, as they mainly pack 1 and 2 drops.
Mental note: Be prepared for this with Mesmeric Orb....
Since many of the blue decks out there play Daze and Spell Pierce, we can potentially play around them by leaving some extra mana open.
Lucky for us, our combo is all possibly activated without using any mana at all, so we'll have at least 3 mana, and hopefully a counter or two in hand.

I'm not picking on you Anusien, please feel free to post any deck lists you're working on and your findings.
But, I am gonna keep trying to see if I can get a Blue/Black version with Bridge to work. Right now Therapy is good, without being great, and might be a little *win-more* against non-blue decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

Note that you can get the functionality of Phantasmagorian with Bridge by Therapying yourself.

Therapies are only truly blind on the first or maybe second turn of game one, on the play. There are realistically not many cards in your opponent's deck that are relevant to your ability to combo off.

[slave]

Note that you can get the functionality of Phantasmagorian with Bridge by Therapying yourself.

Therapies are only truly blind on the first or maybe second turn of game one, on the play. There are realistically not many cards in your opponent's deck that are relevant to your ability to combo off.

All very true - Therapy on yourself also forces you to reveal your hand though doesn't it?
I'd assume you'd only consider that after you've stripped their hand?

For those of you (like me) who may not be well-versed with all the nuances of which deck plays what (what should I name with Therapy?), here's a link you may find useful;
Caleb Durward's primer on the card (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-therapy-session/)

[Aggro_zombies]

It does. However, you're right that you should Therapy the opponent first to check for counters; if you reveal your hand and don't have counters, it makes decisions much easier for your opponent. If they don't have any counters you can Therapy yourself and the reveal is irrelevant.

If I'm looking at a hand of LabMan, Force, blue card, and maybe another card I'd rather have Bridge and Therapy in my graveyard than Phantasmagorian.

[slave]

I've been playing with a UB version, haven't quite got it consistent enough yet to post it.

Just curious though;
Where did the name "Booberry" come from?

[-Spooky-]

I've been playing with a UB version, haven't quite got it consistent enough yet to post it.

Just curious though;
Where did the name "Booberry" come from?

There has been a long tradition of naming combo decks after breakfast cereals. Boo Berry was originally (and kind of still is) an attempt at making a mono blue cephalid breakfast deck. Because the color blue rhymes with blue and the cereal boo berry had not been used yet, this was the decided name.

[slave]

So I've been giving the Blue/Black version of the deck a shot, and testing it against our current "Decks to Beat", aswell as against the UW version.
And whilst I've got it working, it's not as good/consistent as I'd like.

The main problem I have is how to balance the deck, given that the additional space for Cabal Therapy & Bridge from Below have given us less room to accelerate, and less room for counter.
Ponder & Brainstorm are automatic inclusions, but togther with Lim-Dul's Vault and counter, there's no room left for 4 Preordain
Because of this I've got a single Sensei's Divining Top.
Lim-Dul's Vault is a nice card here, but suffers the same problem that Enlightened Tutor has, in that we don't get the card this turn, and it's also card disadvantage.

Counter VS Discard is the other main choice.
Cabal Therapy together with more discard may be an effective strategy against other combo decks, or we could just go with Therapy and run 4 to 8 counter.
Due to speed requirements this deck has, Daze seems an auto-pick for me as we can win off two lands.
Force of Will is usually an auto-include for blue combo, but here I'm not sure it's optimal.
The number of Blue targets we have isn't really that many, as we can't really afford to use more than one Narcomoeba and none of our other win-con cards.
Due to this deck being VERY vulnerable to Surgical Extraction (Dread Return being a sorcery) I'm still not sure this deck is gonna be viable without lots of counter, as we really have no alternate win-con if Maniac or Dread Return gets hosed.

In testing;
None of the DTB were particularly easy, but some were way tougher than others.
Goblins was one of the easier ones game1 - game2 they had a few ways to Pyroblast us, but otherwise we're slightly quicker provided we save our counter for artifact/grave-hate.
Against Counter-Top decks, with both the UW & UB lists found it tough to get the combo through if we're not quick!
Mesmeric Orb helps Dredge if played early....a LOT! (well duh!:laugh:)
Omniscience/Show decks without Sneak Attack weren't that bad a matchup with UB, as we force them the use their counter against the discard. UW was just as good, able to fetch an O-ring, effectively having +4 O-rings in the deck was very handy, decreasing the need to mulligan for it considerably, although E-tutor attracted counter big time!
Maverick was difficult. Scavenging Ooze & Pridemage hate this deck bad. Post sideboard with grave-hate was pretty unfavourable! Must play this MU out quickly, as we have the chance to just race their hate (potentially), as long as you can consistently counter GSZ for Teeg/Ooze/Qasali etc. Once a Mother gets online we're up against it!
Reanimator was another tough one, as many of their creatures, like Jin Gitaxias, Elesh or Iona can just lock us out.
Merfolk wasn't easy either, as they have the ability to restrict our tempo quite a bit, forcing us to play our counter out earlier than I would like.

So after all that, a couple things;
Including bounce in the sideboard is necessary as a catch all for graveyard & artifact hate against varied opponents.
I've been testing 6 bounce, 4 Echoing Truth & 2 Vapor Snag.
Vapor snag most of the time isn't what you wanna see I'm finding, but getting 2 blue mana for Boomerang isn't always possible if you're using Daze.

[madcatsowega]

Thank goodness, Extirpate isn't played too much these days (at least not in my meta). You are screwed if you ever see that. Personally, I like the U/W versions best. Enlightened Tutor is really helpful, IMHO. It lets us have a more flexible SB to deal with threats which, let's be honest, this deck has plenty to deal with after game one.

I personally also like Orim's Chant in lists running white. Occasionally it will buy you a turn but it's also a catch all on the turn you try to go off as your opponent then has to have a counter for Orim's Chant plus something to stop you from comboing out. Or if you feel like being a douchebag and feel you can afford to do it, you can also drop this on your opponent's turn to slow them down and buy you time. It's versatile and deserves a spot over something like Spell Pierce, I think. This should probably not take the place of your Dazes and Forces, though.

Guys, let's be honest. We're piloting a combo deck that is pretty explosive and can pack protection but is also a bit of a glass cannon. So many things can stop this deck. The newest, Abrupt Decay is not our friend. If we start seeing that everywhere in our metas, we might also want to consider something like Misdirection.

[slave]

Thank goodness, Extirpate isn't played too much these days (at least not in my meta). You are screwed if you ever see that. Personally, I like the U/W versions best. Enlightened Tutor is really helpful, IMHO. It lets us have a more flexible SB to deal with threats which, let's be honest, this deck has plenty to deal with after game one.
...
Guys, let's be honest. We're piloting a combo deck that is pretty explosive and can pack protection but is also a bit of a glass cannon. So many things can stop this deck. The newest, Abrupt Decay is not our friend. If we start seeing that everywhere in our metas, we might also want to consider something like Misdirection.

Yep. This deck isn't robust to graveyard hate.
Discard blows, and creature based stompy gives us a serious clock we can't answer either.
So I figure we have a couple options;
Make the deck more resilient, or to try and race everyone.

Misdirection is a nice option - I hadn't thought of that.
Orim's Chant is a great idea too.
I've been running a couple Fabricate in the UW build to make sure I can find my pieces, together with a single Sensei's Divining Top.
Whilst Fabricate leaves us more open to Daze/Pierce, so far I'm liking the extra 1 or 2 tutors, which would also be in there for post SB silver bullets.
The more I play the deck, the more relevant Force of Will seems to be.

Sideboarding is something I haven't done a whole lot of yet, just been goldfishing with different hate/answers to see how they effect the combo/play.
So far I'm favouring the silver buller approach (1's or 2's) for varied opponents, as carrying only a few of them in the deck with 6 tutors makes our deck pretty consistent, and doesn't take away too much speed.

I've been testing a single O-ring MB - been useful, I may pop another in for the SB.
I've also been trying 4x Echoing Truth in the SB against hate and trouble-creatures.
Other's in Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Prog., Leyline of Sanctity (although Leyline likes to be a 4-of if we use it, so far it's not epic, athough discard rapes this deck) etc.
Relic may be the best for graveyard hate, as it will draw us our E-tutored target too.

What can we use for a sweeper? Goblins & Dredge Zombies scare me!
Is Engineered Explosives the best option available to us?

But I've also looked at other ways to slow our opponents down....
Since we can tutor up artifacts or enchantments, I'm wondering whether a singleton like Winter Orb could be viable in the SB?
We don't need many lands to win, and this would make Daze interesting if it stuck on turn 1 or 2.
Not every deck can play around it, for some it would be a must answer, so we could potentially use up some of their hate.
Thoughts?

[slave]

I've settled on the U/W version.
It's faster, and more likely to get stupid or find answers to threats that stop us winning.

Over the wknd I did some testing with a good friend of mine, against all the competitive decks we own.
For his decks, I asked him to pack in at least 3 ways to deal with both graveyard and artifact threats for the sideboard pool, but I left the specific choices up to him, as I didn't want to tell him what deck I was testing.
Maverick, Goblins, Manaless dredge, Reanimator, SnT Stompy, Burn, Dream Halls, Counter-Top miracles, Affinity, Mono-B Pox & Hypergenesis.
Of the non-competitve, we had a few Modern/Standard decks like Vamps, Illusions, Mono-W Knights & Infect.
We played against each deck at least 3 games, mostly 5 or more for the hard matchups, but with quite a few decks we just used a pool of sideboard options that did the job to save time.
You'd think after all that I'd be pretty sick of Magic? :wink:

First up - how'd it go?
Overall, pretty well, bearing in mind this limited sample of decks to test against.
Most matchups in game 1 were at least possible, many favourable due to our speed and high chance of netting a Tutor for a turn 3 win.
Subsequent game 2 and 3's were harder, but only substantially harder against certain decks.
Targetted Black discard is very unfun for this deck.
Some matchups were very hard.....

Of the non-blue decks - Most were all possible in game 1.
Maverick & Gobz have maindeck ways to either prevent Dread Return, kill our artifacts or remove pieces from the graveyard, but it's pretty rare that either decks kills us before turn 5.
Hypergenesis was fairly easy given our counter and their reliance on Spirit-guides to combo off earlier than us.
The hard one was Pox.
Targetted discard, with land destruction and extraction is a killer to this deck. In almost every game I ended up with one of my pieces in the graveyard only to be extracted......
Later on when I asked him, my friend said he was playing 4 maindeck extraction!:mad:

For the blue decks, this deck performed better than I expected, however I found only running 8 counter limited our ability to protect us from their combo/control.
I may try upping the counter to 10.
Against like Dream Halls, we're faster. SnT and Reanimator wasn't as hard as I thought they would be, as we have O-ring maindeck and counter, and I know those decks don't run much counter. Reanimator was the most difficult due to their discard, and Griselbrand coming out was almost an auto-win button.
Miracles was unfavourable, but part of that could be it's one of my mates best decks, and he's bloody good at piloting it - so I had quite a few games against that one.

So in reflection, sideboard choices seem a bit more simple.
Discard RAPES this deck, but extraction MURDERS it.
4x Leyline of Sanctity seems very good to protect our hand, as we have 16 cards we cannot afford to have extracted.
Maybe that's exaggerating a little, as that's assuming we're not hardcasting Labman.....
4x Echoing Truth was a monster = Must have.
These are the only cards I really wanted to be 4-of's, although any input here is gladly welcome guys.

After that, silver bullets fetchable with our 4x Enlightened Tutor or 2x Fabricate.
At least 2 Oblivion Ring across Main & side are great against SnT and a good catch-all, although I like 1 main and 2 in the side so far.
Engineered Explosives is a nice 2 of.
Other silver bullet's I've included are Relic of Progenitus x2 and a single Tormod's Crypt.
Considering I'm running a single Sensei's Top & Brainstorm, 3x Terminus has been useful, but I still don't really like Terminus - I'd ideally want an option that I can fetch with a tutor. Maybe something that can stop them attacking like Island Sanctuary provided I have pieces in hand??

For a bit of fun;
I've been playing with a singleton proxy of Winter Orb & another in Static Orb in the side.
Since we run no defence, being able to untap two perms only is nice against creature heavy decks, as we can combo off under that conditon - so Static seems the way to go, and it makes Daze much better!!
Static Orb as a singleton for the side I'll go with for now....see how it goes next meet I take this deck to.

Thoughts anyone?

[kingtk3]

...

Thoughts anyone?

Can you post your UW list? It would be useful in order to give you an answer (and I'm curious about your card choices ;) )

[slave]

Can you post your UW list? It would be useful in order to give you an answer (and I'm curious about your card choices ;) )

No worries.
My deck hasn't changed much in the last week.
I really want to fit in more Counter, more filter in Preordain etc., but the massive amount of cards needed to make this combo go nuts, is very limiting for this!
I've put all the cards in bold that really don't wanna get extracted. As you can see....there's a LOT of them!

I'm still testing Fabricate VS Preordain, both for consistency in comboing off, or against hate like a Leyline of the Void etc etc.
Will get back when I'm done the grind-work.

U/W
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Mesmeric Orb
1 Laboratory Maniac, 1 Phantasmagorian, 1 Angel of Glory, 1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls, 1 Dread Return.
4 Narcomoeba
4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor, 2 Fabricate
4 Force of Will, 4 Daze
1 Oblivion Ring
Land;
3 Ancient Tomb, 2 City of Traitors.
4 Islands, 1 Plains, 4 Tundra, blue fetches to make up 19 lands total.
Sideboard;
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Bounce, so far I'm using Echoing Truth, but you could pop in some Wipe Away, or Chain of Vapor if you're brave.
2 Relic of Progenitus & 1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Terminus
and 1 Static Orb cos I'm a fan of a stupid card like this for some reason.

[-Spooky-]

I really don't see a reason for fabricate IF you are running enlightened tutor. Preordain would probably serve you better in that situation. However, it is a necessity if you are not running the tutor imho.

[slave]

Alright, so I've done about 50 hands goldfishing against another 2 decks (each) I've been working with that can put on pressure quickly &/or counter (Dredge & Fish)

+2 Sensei's Divining Top (3 total), -2 Fabricate.
Sensei's Divining Top > Preordain > Fabricate.
Spooky, you're dead right, having the extra Fabz isn't really necessary if we can manipulate the deck a bit.
The only downside to running more Tops is how it effects Force of Will, but with Top we don't need to use that Ponder unless we need a shuffle.:rolleyes:

I've found the single O-ring maindeck to be unnecessary most of the time, but there's not really any other catch-all I can think of, I could use for game 1 that I can fetch with the tutor, as I never seem to find the bounce when I really need it.
I've found the 2 Relics and 1 Crypt against Dredge/graveyard shenanigan's is pretty effective.
This deck doesn't like topdecking without Top or filter - just so many bad cards for us to draw into!!
I tried Chains of Vapor & Echoing Truth - still unsure which is the best play. Truth is great, but Chains is one sided if we have 6 mana and combo pieces in hand (rare).
Chains seems risky.....