Altering Cards - Devaluing, the new pimp or a rip-off from artists?

[Lemnear]

Good evening dear community members,

I want to bring up a topic that crossed by way many times being addicted to P.I.M.P every one of my decks and the popularity of alters seem to catch up to foils in that regards lately. Through eBay and magiccardmarket's recent prices we reached the point there a simple boarder extention triples the price of a playable card (Examples: https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/?mainPage=browseAltered). Maybe this is the reason the number of "artists" exploded since 2009. However most of those "artists" offer poor execution and/or a lack of creativity. Look at these:

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/164/2/d/altered_magic_card__manga_girl_by_jesswells-d3iuwq7.jpg

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv346/kendallstump/Batterskull_001.jpg

Without trying to be too mean, I would say the artist managed to devalue that swamp not to speak of the skull. We have a lot of pimps on the forum (or over at theManaDrain) with their Walt Disney/Pony Power 9 or else which I too feel is a devalueing of expensive cards.

On the other side we have well-known brush magicians like poxy, sandreline or demonicum overran with commisions for their awesome works but, to be devils advocate, atm Poxy's Dual Lands and Terese Nielsen's Force of Will's really flood the market atm. However, One of the many, many, FoW Set's of Nielsen hit's the market atm for 5000€ (!!) atm and my jaw hits the table (because of the price, Not the cards; i'm not amazed by her works). Take a look.

https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/img/specimens/68902565.jpg

Is that a serious price for One of the endless Nielson FoW Sets? How about pretty unique alters? If you google for "Lion's Eye Diamond" or any added instance of "alter" this one Pops up:

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab243/demonium71/diamantdeloeildajani3.jpg

Seriously, how to value such a piece or something iconc like the Bazaar of Moxen Yawgmoth's Will (which appear to be sold 4 around 5000€)

What kind are your favourite alter? What's your piece of interest posted on this forum? What are you willing to shell out for those? I'm looking forward to a Lot of alter-related comments :D

[lordofthepit]

I don't like altered cards at all, but the Swamp and Batterskull you posted goes beyond normal levels of hideous.

[Lemnear]

I don't like altered cards at all, but the Swamp and Batterskull you posted goes beyond normal levels of hideous.

Half of the joke is the proud bookstamp on the pic of the Swamp

I'm just shocked about the developments containing alters; The quality of the most alters available on the market dropped to the rock bottom while Artists charge from 10-50€ to alter a piece which is often not worth the paint which my satiric examples show (imo more to find in our Altered Card Thread). Most people who opt to alter their cards do this for Personal preferance (because they hate the original art) or to add value for pimp (investment?).

The truth is that a large amount of the alters done these days devalue the cards. Look at the Batterskull and imagine the owner paid 10$ for the alter and 13$ for the card. Let the owner stumble into the Situation that he wants/have to sell the card. How much do he get for that anymore? 3$? He literally payed someone (the artist) to destroy the card. Hope they produced the 2 shown examples for themselves.

[Machahiko]

Pretty much most of the alterations should make the real price lower, even though the cost of getting an expensive altered card will always be more than what the card would be worth. I think altering cards or having altered cards is more about expressing yourself. With expressing yourself I don't mean that people want to brag, more than that I think that people want to show what they are interested in and maybe then have a conversation about the alterations with fellow players or just see the face of other people who think that the cards you have are cool. Maybe they're just to show what your favorite cards are or make your deck have more depth. I've always been disappointed in the fact that there's no real story behind decks and nothing to back up the story that "you are a planeswalker". I play T.E.S. at the moment because I've always wanted to have a deck that somehow expresses that I as an planeswalker use all these spells to get an stranglehold over the other planeswalker, and then kill him with tendrils of agony.

Whatever the reason is, people will keep on getting their cards altered and I would like to see wizards let people have some more slack with this. It would be nice to see some altered cards in SCG tournaments. (not those awful anime/manga lands though...) Unless the cards are really masterfully altered by the original artists (Terese Nielsen, Steve Argyle or Rob Alexander for example) , or by professional artists (poxy?) I don't think that the cards should have any extra value. The only exception would maybe be the award cards from Bazaar of Moxen.


The truth is that a large amount of the alters done these days devalue the cards. Look at the Batterskull and imagine the owner paid 10$ for the alter and 13$ for the card. Let the owner stumble into the Situation that he wants/have to sell the card. How much do he get for that anymore? 3$? He literally payed someone (the artist) to destroy the card. Hope they produced the 2 shown examples for themselves.

That's true. Also I think that if you decide to send your cards to someone to have them altered, and then selling them afterwards in hope of making some extra cash, you're a douche. I myself have now 4 cards altered that I don't play in any deck, but they're still in my binder, in the front page. (ok, the front page after 125 sanctuary cats.., and counting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP4NMoJcFd4)!) While I won't play with them anymore, they remain in my collection as memories of all the decks that I've gone through as I've played legacy. I'll hold on to them and remember the good tournaments, my good friends that I played with and all the good times that I've spent playing cards.

Bottom line - anime lands look fucking terribad and you should feel bad.

[sandreline]

Most people who opt to alter their cards do this for Personal preferance (because they hate the original art) or to add value for pimp (investment?).


Most of time it's the first option: personal.
Then you have the pimp. When foil doesn't exist.
Or...I'll let you guess what is the language of this Karakas ?:tongue:
http://www.sandreline.com/sites/default/files/P1060805.JPG

A small percentage try to make money. Not sure if it works, I remember a guy with my Guru FOWS, don't know if he finally earned a lot (add the price of FOW+work+shipping cost to France...).
In doubt, I decided to increase my prices ! :laugh:
But I don't think you can make money like this.
The only exception is maybe for damaged cards ?

http://www.sandreline.com/sites/default/files/Mox_rescue.jpg

[Einherjer]

Well, I have 4 altered cards, altered by Sandreline and I plan on getting 4 more. I have 4 Force of Will and plan on getting 4 Brainstorm. Why this cards? Well I play them in every deck. So they are my personal cards. Nothing pimp, nothing to increase the value.. just personal preference. There's nothing as cool as saying: "Ill Cherry-Blossom-Force your Jace", right?

Greetings

[aahz]

I'm personally not a fan of alters. However, I will say that some alters are absolutely amazing. Especially in person. I've had the good fortune of interacting with BC's playsets of Lion's Eye Diamond, Doomsday, Underground Sea, and Polluted Delta (I think they were all done by poxy). You can talk a lot of crap about alters in general, but when in you see these in person...just Wow! I don't know how alters affect the value of the cards except to say that I wouldn't buy altered cards (so it wouldn't surprise me if it devalues them except in rare cases), though I think it's safe to say that no one is going to try to steal the Pony 9 (which is another angle that is possibly being overlooked).

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm personally not a fan of alters. However, I will say that some alters are absolutely amazing. Especially in person. I've had the good fortune of interacting with BC's playsets of Lion's Eye Diamond, Doomsday, Underground Sea, and Polluted Delta (I think they were all done by poxy). You can talk a lot of crap about alters in general, but when in you see these in person...just Wow! I don't know how alters affect the value of the cards except to say that I wouldn't buy altered cards (so it wouldn't surprise me if it devalues them except in rare cases), though I think it's safe to say that no one is going to try to steal the Pony 9 (which is another angle that is possibly being overlooked).

Completely agree with this, Poxy alters are the most fantastic things I've ever seen. I seriously can't even imagine the technique necessary to get such small intricate lines on a magic card.

OP, I think you're looking at the altering community with a bit too broad of a brush stroke (ohmygodpuns!). I alter cards, but I don't do it for money or even commission. I just do it because I like artsy stuff from time to time, and it still makes my cards unique. Some people like to get foils, some people like to get very specific basics, but I enjoy both creating the alter and using them. I realize my alters are nowhere near the level of anyone who posts stuff here, but it's still a fun hobby. Maybe I should just get into Warhammer. Devaluing a Darksteel swamp isn't a thing, and I don't think these amateur artists are starting out with duals or power 9. Gotta start on something, might as well be dirt cheap. I think you're just annoyed to see people trying and being bad at it.

[Einherjer]

I mean I would never sell the altered cards I got, but if I'd have to ( crisis or whatever ) I'd sell it for a price that's quite a bit about the normal FoW-price(like..150 Euro). I am not sure if this is the correct way, but for such high-quality alters as these are, I think it's okay at least.

Still, as said, I'd never sell any of these altered cards, they've got an way to high personal value for me.

For reference:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2ytquq8.jpg

Greetings

[Solaran_X]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/Solaran_X/PowerDualsAlters.jpg

This is my set of Power. I had them altered because A) I don't plan on getting rid of my Power again, B) this makes my Power very unique so if it is stolen it is easily identified and C) all the Power was Fair/Poor condition Unlimited when I contacted a local artist to do the work.

I had a couple of these in Beta, and two of them (Time Vault and Ancestral Recall) were very close to NM. I traded the Betas down to played Unlimited just for the alterations. I would never get a real Beta altered, regardless of condition.

Surprisingly enough, I've gotten far more compliments than insults over the cards and was even offered more than fair value for them from an interested third party (as in enough to buy a full new set of Unlimited P9 and Time Vault in much better condition) - but I don't intend on getting rid of these. They are unique in the world, and they are mine.

[John Cox]

I see an alter by the artist who made the art for the card as adding value. If Terese Nielsen want to doodle on my force of will, or Poole on my island, I like that. I don't want someone to draw an anime babe and charge me $20. Or extend the art on the card that was someone else's concept to begin with. I see that as theft of concept.

[nedleeds]

That swamp is so awful it is simultaneously awesome.

[Lemnear]

In case someone got me wrong (especially Sol): I'm fine with the Pony power 9 etc. Even if I feel it's devaluing, which doesn't matter, because you explained your Position already on the Drain.

I have some Real awesome alters myself done via commision; my topic here is that I noticed the tendency that a) People try to earn quick money with crappy alterings and b) the Impression that a serious amount of commisions is (directly) resold on named platforms and because of the partial Crazy prices i asked for evaluing/devaluing through the altering process

[sumbahdy]

I myself own lots of altered cards. Heck 99% are done by Poxy and I don't actually see this as devaluing or a rip-off from artists. I had cards altered for the sole reason of being unique. You will get oohs and ahhs for showing up with all Beta Duals and (insert outrageous language foiled) cards and have another guy show up with the same set of cards while with alters, it is much more personal and easily recognizable as yours. You won't get the same oohs and ahhs like the beta ones but still it does attract the same attention as well.

[Chimera87]

I very recently had Sandreline alter my playset of Force of Will to the burning style. I did this because a) they go in every single deck that I play competitively and b) they can't be foiled or pimped otherwise (except for making them German I guess). The rest of my deck is fully foil if possible. It just adds to the uniqueness of your cards and if a good artist does this, then in my opinion this only makes the card more awesome.
Looking at alters from Poxy, BigUp, Sandreline, CardKitty and many more, I would say that they make the cards more personal and better.

Aweful alters are aweful.

[Solaran_X]

In case someone got me wrong (especially Sol): I'm fine with the Pony power 9 etc. Even if I feel it's devaluing, which doesn't matter, because you explained your Position already on the Drain.

I have some Real awesome alters myself done via commision; my topic here is that I noticed the tendency that a) People try to earn quick money with crappy alterings and b) the Impression that a serious amount of commisions is (directly) resold on named platforms and because of the partial Crazy prices i asked for evaluing/devaluing through the altering process
The thing with getting a third party alteration is to scout the work before you commission them. Some are very well known and can be trusted to do awesome work. Others (like the artist who did my Power and duals) are unknowns - in my case, the artist who did mine is local to me and I saw his work on display at a local store. After seeing his work first hand, I contacted him and had him to a test piece on the Mox Pearl before I began handing him even more Power to be altered (and Unlimited duals).

It's all in the eye of the beholder. I consider my Power priceless, some local buyers consider my Power heavily devalued, and at least one person out there values my Power about on par with NM/M or GD UN Power.

[csy]

I think your power looks awesome, sans time vault. That just looks like you were baby sitting and someone put a sticker on it. And the guru duals just looks like artist alters with a highlighter.

[nedleeds]

eBay / MOTL would be the ultimate arbiter of the value.

A set of poxy altered PR Savannahs would certainly outstrip a set of NM Revised ones by a decent margin (?)

Edit: how about these things?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Savannah-ALTERED-ART-FOIL-AlteredPrints-/150909994761?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item2322efc709

Who the heck is really showing up to a tourney with 4 of these in their deck?

[csy]

Altered prints.com make the most hideous alters. They later print and foil over the cards so there is no way to even know if what's underneath is even real. Annd they smash that hideous logo on the bottom.

[nedleeds]

Seems like they are catering to the EDH crowd. No way I'm going to any real tournament with those in my deck. That's a loss waiting to happen.

[Solaran_X]

Altered prints.com make the most hideous alters. They later print and foil over the cards so there is no way to even know if what's underneath is even real. Annd they smash that hideous logo on the bottom.
The only one of their "alterations" I like is the Liliana of the Veil, where they took Argyle's own extended and more detailed artwork for the card (with his permission I assume, since Argyle was selling them at GP: Indy this year) and put that as a foil layer over top of a non-foil Liliana of the Veil. Aside from that, most of them do seem hideous (the Balance doesn't look terrible, but they used a RV Balance instead of a 4E Balance, so the actual card contrasts greatly with the foil layer).

[Megadeus]

There is no way those can be tourney legal right? I can't imagine it doesnt affect the cards thickness or something that would inevitably "mark" the card in some way in your deck.

[Lemnear]

There is no way those can be tourney legal right? I can't imagine it doesnt affect the cards thickness or something that would inevitably "mark" the card in some way in your deck.

No, afaik they clean a random foil with acetone from all ink down to the foil Layer and print on those blanks (found vids on Youtube showing the cards and Explain the process). The cards aren't thicker but they remain proxies because they never were the card they try to be.

Back to my Topic:

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/Force_of_Will_Alliances.c1p7894.prod

Look at this amount of Terese Nielsen, CardKitty, Poxy and Sandreline FoW's alone on mkm atm. Set for 500, 2500 or Even 5000€ ...

[Megadeus]

No, afaik they clean a random foil with acetone from all ink down to the foil Layer and print on those blanks (found vids on Youtube showing the cards and Explain the process). The cards aren't thicker but they remain proxies because they never were the card they try to be.

Back to my Topic:

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/Force_of_Will_Alliances.c1p7894.prod

Look at this amount of Terese Nielsen, CardKitty, Poxy and Sandreline FoW's alone on mkm atm. Set for 500, 2500 or Even 5000€ ...

Oh... I was under the impression that they took an original savanah and used some process to alter and foil it... Why the hell would anyone pay 150 bucks for a fake savannah?!

[Solaran_X]

Oh... I was under the impression that they took an original savanah and used some process to alter and foil it... Why the hell would anyone pay 150 bucks for a fake savannah?!
He got it wrong. AlteredPrints does indeed use real legit cards. Their "alteration" is a sticker that goes over top of the card that replaces the art and border with a full frame picture, with cut outs so that the real card name, casting cost, type line, card text, and P/T (or Planeswalker Loyalty) showing. So that altered Savannah is a real Revised Savannah - just with a sticker on top of it with cut outs for the name, Land line, and text box.

If you were only using a few of them in a deck, I'm sure you'd get called for a marked deck. But if your entire stack of 75 was altered like that, I'm not sure if the judges could call you for it.

[sandreline]

Look at this amount of Terese Nielsen, CardKitty, Poxy and Sandreline FoW's alone on mkm atm. Set for 500, 2500 or Even 5000€ ...


HA HA ! 250€ per card for one of mine ? LOL :-D
The seller is rather optimistic, since it would cost about half this price to buy a playset of FoW and to order an alteration straight to me...

[dahcmai]

I'll stick with the opinion that it's all in the eye of the beholder.


You might like alters, you might not.


I have one alter of the Arabian Nights Island. It's perfectly playable and usually kind of a half joke since people disregard the Summer Island I have in the deck to ask about that alter. It's a conversation piece really, but I enjoy it and that's really what all alters are about. If you like it, then it was well spent money.

As for being a rip off, people will pay stupid amounts of money for some seriously ignorant stuff. Who cares. It happens all the time. If it sucks, it doesn't sell unless it's to a person who really likes it. So it's hard to say if any of them are a rip off since a person bought it and obviously thought it was worth that much.

I paid $25 for mine, I think it was well worth it. Not sure if that's a lot or not, but I have no regrets about it.

[Lemnear]

He got it wrong. AlteredPrints does indeed use real legit cards. Their "alteration" is a sticker that goes over top of the card that replaces the art and border with a full frame picture, with cut outs so that the real card name, casting cost, type line, card text, and P/T (or Planeswalker Loyalty) showing. So that altered Savannah is a real Revised Savannah - just with a sticker on top of it with cut outs for the name, Land line, and text box.

If you were only using a few of them in a deck, I'm sure you'd get called for a marked deck. But if your entire stack of 75 was altered like that, I'm not sure if the judges could call you for it.

Possibly, I'm mistaken here. I've checked eBay again and it seems there are several sellers with that "holographic, foil" alterings. I cannot tell for sure who's altering real cards or only put stickers on crap cards