[Deck] 12 Post

[Deathrite_Shaman]

Burgeoning looks interesting. Any thoughts?

Exploration is nearly a strictly better effect and there's been discussion in the thread previously about it.

[PilotChick]

Seems the same or worse than exploration. And if you run both, you're now warping the deck a considerable amount

[Ponders]

For my list, If I can find room for mods I'm considering Petrified Field, and some kind of tutor (living wish, ancient stirrings, wordly tutor).

[theavish]

Exploration is nearly a strictly better effect and there's been discussion in the thread previously about it.

I wasn't around for the old thread... Not sure what you're reffering to. Any chance you could either link me the discussion or explain what the verdict was? I've been contemplating running Exploration or Explore in my build, but I wan't sure what the general consensus was.

Also, what do people think about Sylvan Library in the list? I've been testing a 2-SDT 1-Library list for about 2 weeks now, and I like it a lot.

[Ponders]

I wasn't around for the old thread... Not sure what you're reffering to. Any chance you could either link me the discussion or explain what the verdict was? I've been contemplating running Exploration or Explore in my build, but I wan't sure what the general consensus was.

Also, what do people think about Sylvan Library in the list? I've been testing a 2-SDT 1-Library list for about 2 weeks now, and I like it a lot.

I've thought about this and I think the benefit is limited. SDT costs less, is a strong t1 play, and is more dynamic. Top is better at on demand searching with fetch interaction, and can save itself under threat. On the other hand, SDT is a revoker target, and eats a counter in matches vs delver. Sylvan Library enables you to draw an extra card, however this comes at a substantial cost of life. Because it seems to me that the post player is frequently living under a beatdown in a fast format I opt not to play it.

[Rock Lee]

Seriously considering Dragonlord Dromoka and a real white splash.

[MGB]

Seriously considering Dragonlord Dromoka and a real white splash.

I'm taking it you ran into some problems vs. Miracles at Eternal Extravaganza?

[Rock Lee]

I'm taking it you ran into some problems vs. Miracles at Eternal Extravaganza?

Nono. Just think that Dragonlord Drokoma deals with most delver-related matchups, which knocked me out of eternal extravangaza with insane hands.

[Mockingbird]

Nono. Just think that Dragonlord Drakoma deals with most delver-related matchups, which knocked me out of eternal extravangaza with insane hands.

Seems like a good idea, but I do have a concern. My worry is :4::g::w: because six mana is an expensive solution to Delver considering most Delver decks rely on setting a tempo that's faster than a lot of decks. Is Show and Tell going to make a comeback or are you thinking of relying on other tricks to live long enough to land him?

[Mockingbird]

This is a double post, but I'm posting for an entirely unrelated reason than Dragonlord Drakoma, so I think I can do this (please nobody hurt me if I can't).

At SCG's Dallas IQ Premier, a UG Post list made 13th Place: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=81090


//Lands (26)
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Khalni Garden
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

//Creatures (9)
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 Trinket Mage
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre


//Spells (25)
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Moment's Peace
2 Repeal
3 Show and Tell

//Sideboard
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Swan Song

[sauce]

That's me and my list btw... I was just about to post about my tournament but you beat me to it.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=81090

Rd1 Bant Infect 2-0 (start the day off w/ a bad matchup)
Rd2 MUD 2-0 (2nd bad matchup in a row)
Rd3 Elves 2-1 (3rd bad matchup in a row)
Rd4 Tinfins 0-2 (Dude hits yahtzee after I blow him out w/ Crop rotation getting Bog, lost a good matchup)
Rd5 Miracles 2-0 (Joe Losett)
Rd6 RUG Delver 2-0
Rd7 Manaless Dredge 2-0
Rd8 BUG Delver (the end boss of this deck) 1-2
I got hymned and double fow'd in every game I lost vs BUG for t8. We couldn't draw in, I was in 9th he was in 10th.

Deck is decent but a lot of bad matchups right now it seems...

[Ponders]

That's me and my list btw... I was just about to post about my tournament but you beat me to it.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=81090

Rd1 Bant Infect 2-0 (start the day off w/ a bad matchup)
Rd2 MUD 2-0 (2nd bad matchup in a row)
Rd3 Elves 2-1 (3rd bad matchup in a row)
Rd4 Tinfins 0-2 (Dude hits yahtzee after I blow him out w/ Crop rotation getting Bog, lost a good matchup)
Rd5 Miracles 2-0 (Joe Losett)
Rd6 RUG Delver 2-0
Rd7 Manaless Dredge 2-0
Rd8 BUG Delver (the end boss of this deck) 1-2
I got hymned and double fow'd in every game I lost vs BUG for t8. We couldn't draw in, I was in 9th he was in 10th.

Deck is decent but a lot of bad matchups right now it seems...


I don't know for how long, or how you guys play your decks but I'm getting blown out with just about every variant against 90% of delvers. .

[Rock Lee]

Have been messing around with this build with elder dragons:

// Lands
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [R] Tundra
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LRW] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [TSP] Island (2)
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [FNM] Cloudpost

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [DOT] Dragonlord Dromoka
3 [ARB] Meddling Mage

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [M10] Pithing Needle
3 [OD] Moment's Peace
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [UL] Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 3 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [THS] Swan Song

[TheBoozeCube]

I took 16th at a local 1K Super IQ (73 players) today with the monogreen list I posted a page or two back, getting my first SCG point. I lost my win-and-in in a nailbiter vs RUG Delver. He had 3 cards, so I cast Surgical Extraction to see whether he had Force for my All Is Dust and would have won if I had targeted Stifle instead of Spell Pierce, as that was his only other blue card. Oh well.

Anyway, Ugin has been massively overperforming for me. I'm seriously considering adding a third one. I was also thinking, however, about trying out that new Haven of the Spirit Dragon card from DTK. It's a tutor target that lets you recur an Ugin that's been countered or discarded. Is this value or is this just too cute?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[prgmctan]

I took 16th at a local 1K Super IQ (73 players) today with the monogreen list I posted a page or two back, getting my first SCG point. I lost my win-and-in in a nailbiter vs RUG Delver. He had 3 cards, so I cast Surgical Extraction to see whether he had Force for my All Is Dust and would have won if I had targeted Stifle instead of Spell Pierce, as that was his only other blue card. Oh well.

Anyway, Ugin has been massively overperforming for me. I'm seriously considering adding a third one. I was also thinking, however, about trying out that new Haven of the Spirit Dragon card from DTK. It's a tutor target that lets you recur an Ugin that's been countered or discarded. Is this value or is this just too cute?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Haha, I thought this was you when I saw an exploration while you were shuffling. Meant to ask of you posted here.

[MGB]

Have been messing around with this build with elder dragons:

// Lands
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [R] Tundra
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LRW] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [TSP] Island (2)
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [FNM] Cloudpost

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [DOT] Dragonlord Dromoka
3 [ARB] Meddling Mage

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [M10] Pithing Needle
3 [OD] Moment's Peace
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [UL] Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 3 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [THS] Swan Song

I'm just curious about this adaptation to the presence of Delver this late in that deck's ascendance in the metagame. Did you not have problems with this matchup previously? I was under the assumption that Delver was managed fairly reliably through the use of Repeal and Glimmerposts.

What about your experience at Eternal Extravaganza caused you to take the rather drastic step of evaluating a 6 mana flying (but uncounterable) blocker to handle Delver?

[maCHOOga]

I heard that Rock and TimH were at EE2, as well as a lot of other 12 postees. How did everyone do?

After starting 0-1 against Managara D&T, I had a "good" run and finished 63rd to get "almost my money" back at EE2.
I'll post my list and matchups later in the week.

[Darkenslight]

I'm just curious about this adaptation to the presence of Delver this late in that deck's ascendance in the metagame. Did you not have problems with this matchup previously? I was under the assumption that Delver was managed fairly reliably through the use of Repeal and Glimmerposts.

What about your experience at Eternal Extravaganza caused you to take the rather drastic step of evaluating a 6 mana flying (but uncounterable) blocker to handle Delver?

IT also stops interaction on your turn, making their removal suites entirely sorcery-speed.

[sauce]

I actually don't think you want to go into a 3rd color regardless of what it offers. Easiest splashes being white and black due to Karakas/Bog already being free...
I think the way to beat BUG delver (the problem Delver) is to play more Cavern of souls. I am going to try playing 2.

You can accomplish the most relevant part of the Dromoka effect by playing more copies of Cavern of souls in my opinion.

[sauce]

I don't know for how long, or how you guys play your decks but I'm getting blown out with just about every variant against 90% of delvers. .

RUG and UWR are a lot easier than BUG delver. It's normal to have trouble w/ BUG.
RUG and UWR can be managed easier since they have no way to attack your hand, just life total and lands.

[TimHarding]

I heard that Rock and TimH were at EE2, as well as a lot of other 12 postees. How did everyone do?

After starting 0-1 against Managara D&T, I had a "good" run and finished 63rd to get "almost my money" back at EE2.
I'll post my list and matchups later in the week.

There were quite a few of us, probably 12/320 of the field - and it was cool to meet a lot of source guys. I finished just outside the money :/. That was a very tough room for 12 Post no doubt. I didn't play a fair deck until round 7. I played UG the way I like it, but had a few game-on-the-line Brainstorms/Top refill moments against reanimator and elves that failed me hard. In fact, the card quality and selection felt pretty anemic the entire tournement, and I'm going to up the fetch count and maybe add a ponder or two to fix it. SnT performed well for me. Candelabra was also excellent. Ugin was never better than Ulamog would've been. Lesson learned.


I actually don't think you want to go into a 3rd color regardless of what it offers. Easiest splashes being white and black due to Karakas/Bog already being free...
I think the way to beat BUG delver (the problem Delver) is to play more Cavern of souls. I am going to try playing 2.

You can accomplish the most relevant part of the Dromoka effect by playing more copies of Cavern of souls in my opinion.

I agree, I could only (barely) imagine BUG working with the bog and access to DRS to help fix.

I like cavern, especially against bug. The best cards are those which efficiently improve your card quality: Brainstorm, Top, Library, Ponder, Ancient Stirrings. I think the Augur of Bolas strategy was a great example of the best way to attack BUG - Wall of Blossoms type of effects.

[Rock Lee]

I'm just curious about this adaptation to the presence of Delver this late in that deck's ascendance in the metagame. Did you not have problems with this matchup previously? I was under the assumption that Delver was managed fairly reliably through the use of Repeal and Glimmerposts.

What about your experience at Eternal Extravaganza caused you to take the rather drastic step of evaluating a 6 mana flying (but uncounterable) blocker to handle Delver?

I've always messed around with BANT post, or I like to say NOPost, as a nod to previous NO(natural order)Bant. Previous versions involved heavy Cavern splashing for Meddling Mages, experiments with Knight of the Reliquary, and just plain adding STP with bolts for maximum double splash. Dragonlord doesn't require any other mana splashing that makes other white card splashes difficult.


I heard that Rock and TimH were at EE2, as well as a lot of other 12 postees. How did everyone do?

I was 3-0, then went 0-3 against 3 different variants of delver. All with pretty nutty draws of 1 threat 3+ counters and blind ripping wastelandx3 in 6 different games. crazy.

[Ponders]

I've always messed around with BANT post, or I like to say NOPost, as a nod to previous NO(natural order)Bant. Previous versions involved heavy Cavern splashing for Meddling Mages, experiments with Knight of the Reliquary, and just plain adding STP with bolts for maximum double splash. Dragonlord doesn't require any other mana splashing that makes other white card splashes difficult.



I was 3-0, then went 0-3 against 3 different variants of delver. All with pretty nutty draws of 1 threat 3+ counters and blind ripping wastelandx3 in 6 different games. crazy.

Oh you're playing post? Brainstorm... Wasteland. Ponder....Wasteland again. GG

[Rock Lee]

Oh you're playing post? Brainstorm... Wasteland. Ponder....Wasteland again. GG

Wasn't even that bad. 5 of the 6 games involved zero cantrips, just draw. look at card. look at my lands. waste anything. Three times.


In other new though. BantPost was highly successful. STP and Meddling Mage was lackluster. Terminus is redonkulous.

[Ponders]

Wasn't even that bad. 5 of the 6 games involved zero cantrips, just draw. look at card. look at my lands. waste anything. Three times.


In other new though. BantPost was highly successful. STP and Meddling Mage was lackluster. Terminus is redonkulous.

I would think that splashing white, you would play sacred ground.

[Rock Lee]

Sauce, how was Carpet of Flowers in your matchups? I have always poo-poo'd this card, but with my testing with thragtusk in preparation of dragonlord dromoka, and then finding out you also were windmilling midrange fatties, I am curious to how it helped be a green dark ritual and to what effect.

[maCHOOga]

Has anyone tried Intuition in the deck? I noticed a play a lot of two of's, so I think I'm going to try playing 1 intuition and 1 noxious revival this evening. That of course, gives even more possible lines of play, lol!

[Rock Lee]

Has anyone tried Intuition in the deck? I noticed a play a lot of two of's, so I think I'm going to try playing 1 intuition and 1 noxious revival this evening. That of course, gives even more possible lines of play, lol!

Well you have me possibly intrigued with intuition -> x3 moment's peaces for 4 fogs. But I think if I'm going to resolve a cmc 3 spell I'd rather have show & tell.

[TimHarding]

Those are some intense cards to jam into post. For me, wasteland, BUG, Delver, Liliana, value, consistency and blocking issues all lead to one card: DRS.

I was a big proponent of DRS when RTR came out, but most post players moved to heavy blue to fight the popularity of other Show and Tell and BloodMoon. DRS ramps, chumps, fixes, annoys delver, gains life, hates yards, draws out removal (making time), turn 2 SnT, and blunts Liliana. I seldom support a splash in UG due to color restraints, but a black slash for DRS is slight and arguably improves the mana overall.

With current technology revisiting my old list could look something like this:

DRS Post

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Trinket Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

4 Brainstorm
3 Repeal
3 Crop Rotation
4 Force of Will

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Townos
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Ponder
3 Show and Tell

SB
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives

Thoughts?

[Rock Lee]

Went 4-0 with terminus bantpost today. List to follow shortly

EDIT: added list


// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
1 [LRW] Island (1)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [KTK] Forest (4)
1 [R] Savannah
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Tundra
1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 [LND] Plains (3)

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 [M13] Thragtusk

// Spells
3 [GP] Repeal
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [US] Show and Tell
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AVR] Terminus
3 [OD] Moment's Peace
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [C13] Bane of Progress
SB: 3 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song

Louis Gentile suggested Flagstone of Trokair and I can't believe I didn't add it already. Unsure if I'm putting it in a Flooded strand or plains spot, likely flooded strand. Great idea, allowing for stabilization with crop rotate into glacial chasm off two lands and not be completely wrecked. Also gives you additional shuffle effects for top abuse.

Still on the lookout for good white cards to consider/evaluate. Wondering if I should go 2 seal of primordium, 1 seal of cleansing. And ideally would like to replace the swan song / Fluster storms, but feel that Ethersworn cannonist might be too narrow.

Consequently, with some friendly testing thanks to local players, I found out what you always always always name with Meddling mage against Ant/Tes. Xantid Swarm. Always. I would name it on the second mage too. Played some cardboard testing and online testing against storm and the matchup finally feels controlled between the duo crop rotate package, and 9 strong cards in the sb against it. Also, keeping in terminus was huge against them.

[theavish]

Is there a specific reason/situation/etc in which you like using Mikokoro? I just don't see the value since you're giving your opponent a draw as well. Do you side it out in certain matchups?

Also, I'm a big fan of 1x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in my sideboard. It helps against a lot of decks. Have you tried testing it at all? What are your thoughts?

[MGB]

So the plan now is to turn this into Miracles-Post?

When do we start running 2-3 Jace the Mind Sculptor? :laugh:

[maCHOOga]

So the plan now is to turn this into Miracles-Post?

When do we start running 2-3 Jace the Mind Sculptor? :laugh:

At this point, why not entreat or counter balance since we have tops? :laugh:

[Deathrite_Shaman]

I've actually often wondered whether Counterbalance would be a good card in the deck seeing as we're already playing 4x top and 4x brainstorm.

The interesting things about the bantpost list that I see are that (1) you're not running any candelabra's (2) you've finally cut away the last vesuva and are solidly in -post territory.

Rock Lee: How has not playing either of them been for you? I've often found getting a second BOG off of a crop rotate the only way to survive against dredge.

@theavish, Mikokoro, Center of the Sea is in there as a way of "countering" infernal tutor with a crop rotation. It beats the line of: infernal tutor, (holding priority) sac a LED and discard hand, tutor Past in Flames, and then recast their GY. After the LED has resolved you can crop rotate into Mikokoro and force them to draw a card. It's also useful for digging for specific cards like when you need to find that moments peace to survive the turn. I think there was some discussion about the card a few pages back that you might be able to search for.

[Postman]

I like the Miracles plan. We used to play Bonfire in the past, and Terminus is even better. Always was afraid of it's normal cc including WW, but it seems to work... Guess I will give it a try, but with 1-2 candelabras for mana fixing

[Deathrite_Shaman]

I like the Miracles plan. We used to play Bonfire in the past, and Terminus is even better. Always was afraid of it's normal cc including WW, but it seems to work... Guess I will give it a try, but with 1-2 candelabras for mana fixing

Plus, unlike red, we're incidentially running an extra white source (or two b/c of flagstone if you want to go that route) b/c of Karakas, so the splash is easier to make.

[theavish]

@theavish, Mikokoro, Center of the Sea is in there as a way of "countering" infernal tutor with a crop rotation. It beats the line of: infernal tutor, (holding priority) sac a LED and discard hand, tutor Past in Flames, and then recast their GY. After the LED has resolved you can crop rotate into Mikokoro and force them to draw a card. It's also useful for digging for specific cards like when you need to find that moments peace to survive the turn. I think there was some discussion about the card a few pages back that you might be able to search for.

Thanks for the explanation, but I'm just a bit confused. If you give them the draw, then don't they just get to draw the card they tutored for? Seems like it's perfect for them.

I'm just getting my feet wet in Legacy after a good year or so with Modern. I was playing RG Tron before, so I figure 12-Post would be a good transition in that I have a basic grasp on the game plan already. I'm finding that the deck punishes misplays HARD, but I love the deck so much. I'm on a 0-Candelabra list for now, since I can't seem to find them anywhere. I like where y'all are headed in the Bant direction.

[Rock Lee]

I've actually often wondered whether Counterbalance would be a good card in the deck seeing as we're already playing 4x top and 4x brainstorm.

The interesting things about the bantpost list that I see are that (1) you're not running any candelabra's (2) you've finally cut away the last vesuva and are solidly in -post territory.

Rock Lee: How has not playing either of them been for you? I've often found getting a second BOG off of a crop rotate the only way to survive against dredge.

Currently 0 candelabra is highly debatable. I have a "flex" slot of 1 atm, and currently it is 1 Ulamog. Cards I'm testing in that slot are Candelabrax1, Oblivion Ring, Ulamog, Jace, 4th Repeal, 4th Terminus, 4th Moment's Peace, 3rd Ugin, the Spirit Dragon.

No vesuva has been something I've been testing since including moment's peace. I found moment's peace was close to sufficient without a second bog, but I needed board removal, so Terminus steps up to that. Thusfar I haven't found the need for a second of any utility land, including chasm with this build. Chasm often buys you time to clear off the board, or gain life via thragtusk and/or transition your lands to basics and/or draw counterspells for pop.

[btm10]

Thanks for the explanation, but I'm just a bit confused. If you give them the draw, then don't they just get to draw the card they tutored for? Seems like it's perfect for them.

Infernal Tutor puts the card they search for into their hand. The tutor, hold priority-activate LED line lets you get the Hellbent effect of turning IT into DT while floating your LED mana to cast what you search for. If you Rotate into and activate Mikokoro in response to the tutor (after they've dumped their hand, but before IT resolves) they're forced to find a second copy of the top card of their deck. It's not even a soft counter, but it's an effective probabilistic counter.

[Rock Lee]

Infernal Tutor puts the card they search for into their hand. The tutor, hold priority-activate LED line lets you get the Hellbent effect of turning IT into DT while floating your LED mana to cast what you search for. If you Rotate into and activate Mikokoro in response to the tutor (after they've dumped their hand, but before IT resolves) they're forced to find a second copy of the top card of their deck. It's not even a soft counter, but it's an effective probabilistic counter.

Cards they can draw into are 11-bad cards (4 dark ritual, 4 cabal ritual, 3 infernal tutor, 1 tendrils of agony, with soft-answer of brainstorm into one of those). Other than that, often the mikokoro is an effective 5-6 turn stall.

[Rock Lee]

Won another weekly with Bant-post, this time against some heinous matchups of Mono-White Staxx, Belcher, and Belcher again.

Used this list:
// Lands
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [R] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LRW] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [TSP] Island (2)
3 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [R] Savannah
1 [P2] Plains (1)
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [M13] Thragtusk

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [OD] Moment's Peace
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [AVR] Terminus
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [US] Show and Tell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 [C13] Bane of Progress
SB: 2 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing


Testing will be via riftstone portal a second flagstone, and this flex slot.

[beez]

Two Belchers! Geez.

[Rock Lee]

Two Belchers! Geez.

Yeah local players often have 4-5 decks built. Come to the event with them all, see if I'm there, then pick whatever nasty matchup they think I can't beat. This time, two friends slung Mono White staxx and Belcher my way, played 'em both. The other belcher player always plays belcher for nostalgia.

Incidentally, this build doesn't run candelabra, no more FoW, only 3 trops, and fetches are dirt cheap now. The total cost-to-ride for this deck has taken a huge hit. Outside of Show & Tells, duals, fetches, and ugin/emrakul, the deck is 200$ tops.

[Togores]

And how you beat them?
They mulled a lot and always went the token route.

[prgmctan]

Won another weekly with Bant-post, this time against some heinous matchups of Mono-White Staxx, Belcher, and Belcher again.

Used this list:
// Lands
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [R] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [LRW] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [TSP] Island (2)
3 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [R] Savannah
1 [P2] Plains (1)
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [M13] Thragtusk

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [OD] Moment's Peace
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [AVR] Terminus
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [US] Show and Tell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 [C13] Bane of Progress
SB: 2 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing


Testing will be via riftstone portal a second flagstone, and this flex slot.

This list seems pretty sweet. I noticed you're playing 28 lands. How has that been for you?

The thing I like about adding a third color is that it adds more power to the deck without suffering the normal consequences of moving from 2 colors to 3 colors.

[Rock Lee]

And how you beat them?
They mulled a lot and always went the token route.

Round 2.
Game 1 Belcher goes for 12 tokens, fogs and terminus.
Game 2 He belches me turn 0.
Game 3 I have a blue land and a counterspell.

Round 3.
Game 1 In win the die roll, land go. He considers going for goblins, says go. I play a second land, when he goes for belcher I have crop into chasm.
Game 2 He mulls to 5, then goes for 10 goblins on turn 2, which get fog'd then terminus'd. He goes for a belcher, but I have a counter for his last mana ramp. he scoops to mikokoro building my hand up when I'm at 7 cards and he has 1.

[prgmctan]

Wait, so *now* you tell me I don't need Candelabras to build this deck? After I just dropped a stack of cash on one a few days ago?
There have been candleless versions floating around for a while.

[maCHOOga]

Yeah local players often have 4-5 decks built. Come to the event with them all, see if I'm there, then pick whatever nasty matchup they think I can't beat.

That's really scummy. Personally if they are metagaming for you, I think you should just audible to a completely different archetype. Same color sleeves and deckbox. It's fighting fire w/ fire.

[Rock Lee]

That's really scummy. Personally if they are metagaming for you, I think you should just audible to a completely different archetype. Same color sleeves and deckbox. It's fighting fire w/ fire.

Kinda. It makes my weeklies extremely entertaining. The experience lends me to believe that this deck doesn't have bad matchups, just more experience needed in them.

[winglerw28]

Consider the bigger picture.

First off, Rock Lee tests. A lot. He tests more than most people here, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that he tests more than several people who post here put together. Not all of the lists he puts up are optimal, and you can see that as he moves from list to list. Moreover, your playstyle may also dictate that you should play a slightly different list, regardless of what Rock is (or isn't) running. If you are looking for a "stock" list, there are some on prior pages, and most - if not all - of those lists run at least one Candelabra, if not two. I personally can't think of a "stock" list that people have come up with so far that isn't made better by at least one Candelabra. Maybe that will change. Maybe it won't.

And if you're still looking for some consolation, think about this: you are now the owner of a card whose general value (assuming the card is in remotely good shape) hasn't consistently dipped below $300 for the last several years. That is extremely unlikely to change anytime soon.

Another thing to consider is that the list that has put up the most actual tournament results happens to be the classic "stock" list with two Candelabras or the mono green list that also has Candelabras. Rock Lee is a great post player, but one of the reasons he is in that position is because he is one of the few people (I'd say there are only between 3-5) that are well known and actually put effort into the deck. It doesn't matter how good you are when you have thousands of cards available to test with and only so many people to test.

[moseby]

Kinda. It makes my weeklies extremely entertaining. The experience lends me to believe that this deck doesn't have bad matchups, just more experience needed in them.


I would take it as a bit of a compliment that he takes a deck that he enjoys playing that is not "tier 1" to local tournaments and is so successful with it that other regulars meta for him.

It used to happen to me when I was able to play more regularly and we had a tight group of players locally. However I did not come close to enjoying the level of success that Rock has. Think of it as a batter sitting on a pitchers change up, rather then a fastball

[MGB]

I'm not upset about being the owner of a nice new Candelabra at all! It was merely a joke meant to poke a little bit of fun at the ever fluctuating nature of Rock Lee's list. :)

Obviously the list changes based on testing, and Candelabra will have some place in the deck for people who want to run them at least as a 1-of indefinitely. I wanted to build this list for a while and some recent acquisitions have finally enabled me to build it!

And re: netdecking, If I wanted to purely netdeck something to give me the highest % chance of winning in a tournament, I'd probably netdeck a Delver list of some kind instead! Instead I build the decks that are personally the most fun to play for my style of play.

[into_play]

That's me and my list btw... I was just about to post about my tournament but you beat me to it.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=81090

Rd1 Bant Infect 2-0 (start the day off w/ a bad matchup)
Rd2 MUD 2-0 (2nd bad matchup in a row)
Rd3 Elves 2-1 (3rd bad matchup in a row)
Rd4 Tinfins 0-2 (Dude hits yahtzee after I blow him out w/ Crop rotation getting Bog, lost a good matchup)
Rd5 Miracles 2-0 (Joe Losett)
Rd6 RUG Delver 2-0
Rd7 Manaless Dredge 2-0
Rd8 BUG Delver (the end boss of this deck) 1-2
I got hymned and double fow'd in every game I lost vs BUG for t8. We couldn't draw in, I was in 9th he was in 10th.

Deck is decent but a lot of bad matchups right now it seems...

Congrats Alex! Other than Miracles, that gauntlet of matches is pretty atrocious for the deck. That makes your record all the more impressive.

I'm loving your list, but I had a couple questions.

Did you ever miss not having more Repeals? I consider them as Insectile bounces first and foremost, and everything else they can bounce is just gravy. And they rarely seem bad in multiples.

How were the Wurmcoil Engine and Thragtusk? Are they there mostly as a hedge against Liliana?

How was Carpet of Flowers? I have always been a strong proponent of the card, and I usually run a pair in the sideboard these days to weaken the mana denial component of Delver decks. It seems that with your Wurmcoil/Thragtusk they would be even better, giving you more threats to pour the extra mana into.

Congrats again! Good to see that you're still rocking this deck.

[winglerw28]

Still on the lookout for good white cards to consider/evaluate. Wondering if I should go 2 seal of primordium, 1 seal of cleansing. And ideally would like to replace the swan song / Fluster storms, but feel that Ethersworn cannonist might be too narrow.

A card that may be worth consideration is Restoration Angel. It is great against Delver decks of all varieties, kills planeswalkers by surprise, and can potentially protect Primeval Titan. Also it is phenomenal when paired with Glen Elendra Archmage or Thragtusk. White also gives us access to Rest in Peace, which is nice in matchups we wouldn't want Moment's Peace (not sure if any of those exist...).

[Rock Lee]

Lost to my thursday weekly to Enchantress (in 2, matchup was a blowout. Good pilot, full combo build) and Belcher (went to 3 games, game 1 involved 7 turns of not drawing a terminus, brainstorm, top, crop, titan, Ugin or moment's peace)

[Postman]

Did some testing with Rock Lee's list last night, only two changes concerning the lands: -1 Mikokoro, -1 Chasm, +1 Cavern, +1 Glimmerpost. I have been surprised how good the deck plays despite the 3rd color! :smile:
Fair MUs are even better now, so I guess the sideboard will be checked for some new options offered by white to fight combo MUs. Candelabra and needle would be nice, especially needle to handle PWs (tested against Narset, and her ultimate is a nightmare).

Right now Bant Post seems to be the way to go.

[maCHOOga]

Here is my list from EE2, went 6-3 on the day for 63rd.

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Trinket Mage
4 Primeval Titan

1 Ugin the Spirit Dragon
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
2 Show and Tell
2 Ponder
3 Force of Will
1 Fact or Fiction

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Cavern of Souls

*~* Sideboard *~*
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Flusterstorm
2 Trinisphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Graffdigger's Cage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Swan Song
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Krosan Grip

There's nothing real innovative here, but it's been very consistent for me. The latest build I've been testing has the following changes.

*~*Mainboard*~*
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Intuition
+1 Noxious Revival

*~* Sideboard *~*
-1 Relic of Progenitus
+1 Engineered Explosives

I've been impressed with the amount of different lines that noxious revival can play. It's original intention was to be the 3rd intuition target.

[MGB]

Machooga do you have a brief rundown of your matches - who you beat, who you lost to?

[Shawon]

maCHOOga, were you the Post player facing Death & Taxes R1? I saw a Post player playing Wurmcoil against Death & Taxes and during one game, use -X from Ugin for two consecutive turns (pretty savage). Just curious if that was you, I was the Affinity player mulliganing to three cards against Reanimator (game 1! and then to five game 2) LOL.

[maCHOOga]

Machooga do you have a brief rundown of your matches - who you beat, who you lost to?

Sure, I've very bad are writing these things down....go go gadget memory.

Round 1: Loss - Death & Taxes
This was a mangara build and each game turn 1 consisted of an Aether Vial. Got to game 3, but wasn't able to turn the corner fast enough to win.

Round 2: Win - MUD/12post?
My opponent was playing Candelbra(s)? The power of Force of Will shown. Won in three games.

Round 3: Win - MUD w Post.
I won in two games. Game 2 involved my opponent being at -29 life and an Ugin ultimate.

Round 4: Loss - Burn
This was my same opponent I beat @ 1 life at the last legacy open. Chaining wurmcoils allowed me to win game 2. I lost in game 3 to a sulfuric vortex.

Round 5: Loss - Elves
My opponent had literal unbeatable hands. Game 1 double natural order, Game 2 double cradle to beat my tabernacle & trinisphere.

Round 6: Win - U/W Miracles
Round 7: Win - Lands
Round 8: Win - Lands
Round 9: Win - Turbo depths


maCHOOga, were you the Post player facing Death & Taxes R1? I saw a Post player playing Wurmcoil against Death & Taxes and during one game, use -X from Ugin for two consecutive turns (pretty savage). Just curious if that was you, I was the Affinity player mulliganing to three cards against Reanimator (game 1! and then to five game 2) LOL.

Yup. That was me. :-D

[somethingdotdotdot]

I was just screwing around with Rock Lee's list when i randomly thought: why not jam stoneforge mystic and batterskull in here? Its a nice 2 mana card that can use up extra mana as the game progresses. This is a list I brewed up for shits and giggles, but the stoneforge idea might help shore up some of the worse matchups--its a nice removal magnet that lets titan live longer in the white matchups; helps gain life with bskull if they dont have an immediate answer; and it's an early clock versus combo. Also: strapping a batterskull onto a titan is just so damn hilarious (bonus points for putting 2 on a titan:cool:)

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Primeval Titan
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Batterskull

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
3 Show and Tell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

Mana should probably be adjusted a bit to include a basic plains/island. Ugin could potentially go in, but I don't have one and he seems like just another win condition. Terminus might be worthwhile in the ee slots, but I dont like the added variance/reliance on brainstorm.

[Rock Lee]

I was just screwing around with Rock Lee's list when i randomly thought: why not jam stoneforge mystic and batterskull in here? Its a nice 2 mana card that can use up extra mana as the game progresses. This is a list I brewed up for shits and giggles, but the stoneforge idea might help shore up some of the worse matchups--its a nice removal magnet that lets titan live longer in the white matchups; helps gain life with bskull if they dont have an immediate answer; and it's an early clock versus combo. Also: strapping a batterskull onto a titan is just so damn hilarious (bonus points for putting 2 on a titan:cool:)

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Primeval Titan
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Batterskull

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
3 Show and Tell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

Mana should probably be adjusted a bit to include a basic plains/island. Ugin could potentially go in, but I don't have one and he seems like just another win condition. Terminus might be worthwhile in the ee slots, but I dont like the added variance/reliance on brainstorm.

The idea is interesting for sure. I would probably run feast and famine over double batterskull since you can untap titan'd lands you just tutored and just win.

[somethingdotdotdot]

SoFaF is probably a good idea--it helps out all of those pesky BGx matchups as well as doing work versus combo.

[Mockingbird]

SoFaF is probably a good idea--it helps out all of those pesky BGx matchups as well as doing work versus combo.

Sideboard maybe, especially since Primeval Titan is probably one of the best creatures in the game to pick up that sword.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Well him and emrakul. There's nothing quite like strapping a batterskull+swords onto a hardcast emrakul. Because annihilator 6 just isnt good enough w/o lifelink+vigilance.:cool:

[Rock Lee]

Tried sfm. and it just walked into all the creature hate fair decks run.

I prefer the control route over tempo. I think fixing mana is enough of a disadvantage to deal with.

[Postman]

I guess SFM needs some counter to work in a proper way. We have no way to protect it AND it doesn't support our game plan... e.g. Krosan Wayfarer ramped, while SFM "just" gets us an equipment we normally don't play.

[Mockingbird]

Tried sfm. and it just walked into all the creature hate fair decks run.

I prefer the control route over tempo. I think fixing mana is enough of a disadvantage to deal with.

How is/did Dragonlord Dromoka testing going?

[TheBoozeCube]

My testing with Ugin got me thinking a lot more about Haven of the Spirit Dragon. In a Loam-based shell, you would be able to dredge into Ugin and recur him indefinitely (subject to graveyard hate). The problem with Loam, of course, is that it doesn't play nicely with Eldrazi graveyard triggers. The interaction seems powerful enough, however, that it's got me brewing. In essence, I ended up borrowing a lot of elements from Lands, although with recurrable finishers that take advantage of 12 Post's massive mana advantage. This is still a very rough draft, but I'd love some constructive criticism on how to make this work.


2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Zuran Orb
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
2 Intuition

1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
1 Academy Ruins
2 Tolaria West
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dark Depths
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Maze of Ith
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Forest


Sideboard

1 Eye of Ugin
3 Pithing Needle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Flusterstorm
1 Sacred Ground
1 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog

[Kirika]

I was trying out a list with Ancient Stirrings. Ancient Stirrings was decent for digging for posts, or answers like Engineered Explosives or Ugin but it really would have been much better as an instant because I would not want to Ancient Stirrings to leave up Green to Crop Rotate versus Wasteland and did not have enough blue cards for force after board so not sure I will stick with Ancient Stirrings.

@MaCHOOga
Interesting running maindeck Force without Treasure Cruise. Is 16 blue cards enough for Forces?

I like Force less without Treasure Cruise to make up for the card disadvantage or is there lots of combo in your meta? There is a decent amount of combo at my local store.

Guess you didn't like Fact or Fiction?

@somethingdotdotdot
Stoneforge seems interesting. You can actually play Batterskull pretty easily with Cloudposts.

[TimHarding]

My testing with Ugin got me thinking a lot more about Haven of the Spirit Dragon. In a Loam-based shell, you would be able to dredge into Ugin and recur him indefinitely (subject to graveyard hate). The problem with Loam, of course, is that it doesn't play nicely with Eldrazi graveyard triggers. The interaction seems powerful enough, however, that it's got me brewing. In essence, I ended up borrowing a lot of elements from Lands, although with recurrable finishers that take advantage of 12 Post's massive mana advantage. This is still a very rough draft, but I'd love some constructive criticism on how to make this work.


2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Zuran Orb
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
2 Intuition

1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
1 Academy Ruins
2 Tolaria West
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dark Depths
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Maze of Ith
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Forest


Sideboard

1 Eye of Ugin
3 Pithing Needle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Flusterstorm
1 Sacred Ground
1 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog

This is soooooo dope! I'm testing this asap.

[Rock Lee]

Probably the most "deep end" build I've brewed sofar. Here is Dragonpost:

// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [BD] Island (2)
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Taiga
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Forest (1)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
4 [OD] Moment's Peace
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [CNS] Dack Fayden
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [BNG] Kiora, the Crashing Wave
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
2 [DOT] Sarkhan Unbroken
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 3 [UL] Crop Rotation


no dragons were involved or harmed in the building of this deck.

Plenty of tuning to happen here. Fow could easily be sb'd with crop and 1-2 utility lands main'd. That is probably the better build, but I am enjoying testing this preboarded version.

[Barook]

Probably the most "deep end" build I've brewed sofar. Here is Dragonpost:

// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [BD] Island (2)
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Taiga
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Forest (1)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
4 [OD] Moment's Peace
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [CNS] Dack Fayden
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [BNG] Kiora, the Crashing Wave
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
2 [DOT] Sarkhan Unbroken
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 3 [UL] Crop Rotation


no dragons were involved or harmed in the building of this deck.

Plenty of tuning to happen here. Fow could easily be sb'd with crop and 1-2 utility lands main'd. That is probably the better build, but I am enjoying testing this preboarded version.
Where's Intuition? I can fetch plenty of juicy combos. It seems like a natural fit. Be it AK, or multiple Moment's Peace for 4 turns of stalling or various combos.

I would include at least 1 Life from the Loam as Intuition target, alongside 1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon for inevitability.

[TimHarding]

Probably the most "deep end" build I've brewed sofar. Here is Dragonpost:

no dragons were involved or harmed in the building of this deck.

Plenty of tuning to happen here. Fow could easily be sb'd with crop and 1-2 utility lands main'd. That is probably the better build, but I am enjoying testing this preboarded version.

Boom! This is definitely pretty far off deep end lol. But, I see these spicy options as your way to achieve a similar game plan to what I've also arrived at recently: Safe, though potentially disadvantageous early control elements, followed by bombs. However, ideally those bombs can both restore advantage, AND pose a threat - because turns 1-2 is about not dying & 3-4-5 is about still not dying and something besides of the top of the deck needs to bring you there. Planeswalkers,by nature, fit the bill very well in this follow-up role.

For me I've accepted that Cruise meta is totally gone, and Legacy can be very diverse and broken - so FOW is too attractive and powerful to ignore. Losing early advantage and relying on resolving a Titan/Ugin (One of ~6 actual threats in popular lists lately) is not strong enough, especially if you need to also hedge against potential card advantage battles in MUs such as BUG. So, I've gotten back on the Trinket made plan to fulfill this role of recovery/Tutor-Threat. He is a little PW that is like 2U, put a 2/2 in & then tutor for defense (map,EE), advantage (top), or offense (map, candle). Very versatile and fills those same roles as the PWs available. Very synergistic with FOW. Blocks. Further, I've also been looking at PWs too, particularly Jace and Kiora, but I haven't had enough trials. DRS (damn another in that PW role haha) has also been testing super well.

[winglerw28]

// Planeswalkers
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [CNS] Dack Fayden
2 [BNG] Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 [DOT] Sarkhan Unbroken


Holy mother of planeswalkers, Batman! I feel as though not playing Jace, the Mind Sculptor is just silly once you've reached this level of mana intensity. He is stronger than all of those but Ugin for sure.

[winglerw28]

My testing with Ugin got me thinking a lot more about Haven of the Spirit Dragon. In a Loam-based shell, you would be able to dredge into Ugin and recur him indefinitely (subject to graveyard hate). The problem with Loam, of course, is that it doesn't play nicely with Eldrazi graveyard triggers. The interaction seems powerful enough, however, that it's got me brewing. In essence, I ended up borrowing a lot of elements from Lands, although with recurrable finishers that take advantage of 12 Post's massive mana advantage. This is still a very rough draft, but I'd love some constructive criticism on how to make this work.

Stop using your Jedi mind powers to read my mind! Been working on BUG-Post lists as of late and came up with a few new ways to deal with pesky Delver of Secrets while conveniently also dealing with True-Name Nemesis, Elves, and other one toughtness creatures. Turns out 3/7 flying hexproof creatures are difficult to handle.

// Planeswalkers (2)
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Creatures (8)
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Trinket Mage
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Primeval Titan

// Spells (19)
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Candelabra of Tawnos

// "Spell"/Utility Lands (11)
3 Maze of Ith
1 Tolaria West
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon

// Mana Producing Lands (20)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Forest

// Sideboard (15)
3 Flusterstorm
3 Swan Song
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Seal of Primordium
2 Pithing Needle
1 Memory's Journey
2 Moment's Peace

[Philipp2293]

Sweet deck! Do you think Haven of the Spirit Dragon is worth it? Maybe you can get more value out of Cavern in it's place. But then again, Ugin piles for Intuiton sound really sweet :)

[maCHOOga]

@MaCHOOga
Interesting running maindeck Force without Treasure Cruise. Is 16 blue cards enough for Forces?

I like Force less without Treasure Cruise to make up for the card disadvantage or is there lots of combo in your meta? There is a decent amount of combo at my local store.

Guess you didn't like Fact or Fiction?


I <3 Fact or Fiction. My only issue with it is it can occasionally put you in super awkward situations. Basically it turns into a game of chicken.
For example, You're two piles are pile 1: brainstorm x2, fetchland, tropical island & pile 2: primetime.

You can untap and cast primetime, but if they have a Force, you loose.


You can take the hand of card advantage and vastly improve your card selection for the rest of the game.

I took the card advantage hand. I brain stormed, shuffled, brainstormed and never saw a threat. I lost that game.

@ RockLee & @ TomHarding
I like the idea of splashy planeswalkers, but isn't it stressing on the manabases? Kiora & Sarkhan are awesome, but it also requires 2x on-color lands. There's never a guarantee you will be able to cast them, right? Have you tried Innistrad Garruk? Other than not being able to pitch to FoW, he seems like he has game against delver decks.

[winglerw28]

Sweet deck! Do you think Haven of the Spirit Dragon is worth it? Maybe you can get more value out of Cavern in it's place. But then again, Ugin piles for Intuiton sound really sweet :)

I think it is important to have a way to Loam and get still back Ugin. That paired with Intuition and the ability to just repeatedly get back Ugin if it dies every other turn is pretty strong. If you add cycling lands or Horizon Canopy somewhere you can even make it every turn.

[prgmctan]

My testing with Ugin got me thinking a lot more about Haven of the Spirit Dragon. In a Loam-based shell, you would be able to dredge into Ugin and recur him indefinitely (subject to graveyard hate). The problem with Loam, of course, is that it doesn't play nicely with Eldrazi graveyard triggers. The interaction seems powerful enough, however, that it's got me brewing. In essence, I ended up borrowing a lot of elements from Lands, although with recurrable finishers that take advantage of 12 Post's massive mana advantage. This is still a very rough draft, but I'd love some constructive criticism on how to make this work.


2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Zuran Orb
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
2 Intuition

1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
1 Academy Ruins
2 Tolaria West
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dark Depths
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Maze of Ith
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Forest


Sideboard

1 Eye of Ugin
3 Pithing Needle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Flusterstorm
1 Sacred Ground
1 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog
This list looks sick. I think you want some number of crop rotation too.

[Mockingbird]

Probably the most "deep end" build I've brewed sofar. Here is Dragonpost:


2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [CNS] Dack Fayden
2 [BNG] Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 [DOT] Sarkhan Unbroken



Holy mother of planeswalkers, Batman! I feel as though not playing Jace, the Mind Sculptor is just silly once you've reached this level of mana intensity. He is stronger than all of those but Ugin for sure.

If you're going Superfriends and Cloudpost, I'm surprised there's no Karn Liberated because he's the precision scalpel of Superfriends, and I agree Wingler: Jace is Jace. Of course, there's also Tezzeret, Tamiyo, Ral Zarek, Garruk Wildspeaker, and Xenagos the Reveler which all have different considerations as well, but what you have is a strong core at least when it comes to walkers (although I'm not entirely sure about Kiora).


By the way, the run of the mill strategy for Superfriends is to ramp out Planeswalkers, cast Obliterate (or something similar), then win off the surviving planeswalkers. That might be a better path than Emrakul, which seems out of place with Eye of Ugin to be honest.

[apple713]

If you're going Superfriends and Cloudpost, I'm surprised there's no Karn Liberated because he's the precision scalpel of Superfriends, and I agree Wingler: Jace is Jace. Of course, there's also Tezzeret, Tamiyo, Ral Zarek, Garruk Wildspeaker, and Xenagos the Reveler which all have different considerations as well, but this is a strong core at least when it comes to walkers.


By the way, the run of the mill strategy for Superfriends is to ramp out Planeswalkers, cast Obliterate (or something similar), then win off the surviving planeswalkers. That might be a better path than Emrakul, which seems out of place with Eye of Ugin to be honest.

this deck is so far off the deep end i swear someone just suggested obliterate.... obliterate is a dead card most of the time especially with no reliable way to tutor for it. If you want to play planes walker ramp, i'd suggest a bunch of different builds that reflected someone thing more like nic fit. if you are using the locus lands the real benefit comes from the unstoppable force of eldrazi...

[TimHarding]

this deck is so far off the deep end i swear someone just suggested obliterate.... obliterate is a dead card most of the time especially with no reliable way to tutor for it. If you want to play planes walker ramp, i'd suggest a bunch of different builds that reflected someone thing more like nic fit. if you are using the locus lands the real benefit comes from the unstoppable force of eldrazi...

I agree lol this thread is starting to read like the nic fit one...

[Postman]

I can't take the last ~20 posts seriously, sorry ^^ Sure, there have to be some new ideas and innovations in order to improve the deck. But for me it's no longer TE / 12 Post (with 10 posts...).

[Monkey_Island]

With all those planewlakers around here I think a 1-off Contagion Engine could be funny. Scaling up PWs + killing annoying creatures (albeit slowly) seems worth testing...

[kingtk3]

I can see the last ~20 posts as preparation for april's fool ^_^

[winglerw28]

Sorry guys, guess we will go back to netdecking and never trying anything interesting or fun. :tongue:

If you're trying to win for sure, build a deck that has a high win percentage and tournament results. I know I don't play post because I'm a huge spike.

[apple713]

Sorry guys, guess we will go back to netdecking and never trying anything interesting or fun. :tongue:

If you're trying to win for sure, build a deck that has a high win percentage and tournament results. I know I don't play post because I'm a huge spike.

Im all for innovation but there cones a point when the deck is so differrnt its not really recognizable as its original. By all means innovate but keep in kind your suggestion may throw it into a different category. A deck is generally defined by its recognizability and its matchups. So When an experienced legacy player has trouble recognizing your deck and the matchups become considerably different it may be time to rebrand. Consider this. There are 3x seperate forums for what was once, and is still, recognized by most as 43 lands. 3x seperate threads for the same pos deck.. But whatever makes em happy right?

[winglerw28]

I think saying that the decks being created being drastically different from the core strategy of the "Turbo Eldrazi" plan is reasonable. Minor changes like going from 12 to 9-10 posts has been pretty standard, but splashes haven't.

A derivative deck has to start somewhere, however. Are we supposed to make a "I'm not sure what this is but want feedback from people who have no experience with post" thread? I'm totally fine moving to a new thread if enough people want it, but I dislike people jumping on the bandwagon of deriding a modified list simply because it is different. Coming in and saying that these lists look like a joke could come off as hostile towards new people trying to look at the deck - "I think we should focus more on the core strategy we had before, we are likely trying to be too cute with what we are doing" is a lot more useful and constructive than the hidden message of "This is unacceptable and totally different than what I expected and looks really bad!".

The post strategy is all about inevitability, resilience, ramp, and giant monsters/planeswalkers. Some of the lists might be wonky, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily a fundamentally different strategy.

Edit: For clarity, this isn't targeted at you specifically, nor am I saying that you are being unreasonable or rude or anything. I just wanted to push the point that we should have more meaningful reasoning when trying to show why we don't agree with any given post.

[AppendixG]

Has anyone tested Tower of the Magistrate as a Crop Rotatable way to deal with Batterskull and (to a lesser extent) other problematic equipment? Currently, I've added one to my sideboard that I trade out with Mikokoro.

I know that with Repeal, Batterskull isn't typically a huge problem but it never hurts to eke out every little advantage that you can.

[sauce]

Has anyone tested Tower of the Magistrate as a Crop Rotatable way to deal with Batterskull and (to a lesser extent) other problematic equipment? Currently, I've added one to my sideboard that I trade out with Mikokoro.

I know that with Repeal, Batterskull isn't typically a huge problem but it never hurts to eke out every little advantage that you can.

don't need it. also Maze of ith is just better.

[Ponders]

I think saying that the decks being created being drastically different from the core strategy of the "Turbo Eldrazi" plan is reasonable. Minor changes like going from 12 to 9-10 posts has been pretty standard, but splashes haven't.

A derivative deck has to start somewhere, however. Are we supposed to make a "I'm not sure what this is but want feedback from people who have no experience with post" thread? I'm totally fine moving to a new thread if enough people want it, but I dislike people jumping on the bandwagon of deriding a modified list simply because it is different. Coming in and saying that these lists look like a joke could come off as hostile towards new people trying to look at the deck - "I think we should focus more on the core strategy we had before, we are likely trying to be too cute with what we are doing" is a lot more useful and constructive than the hidden message of "This is unacceptable and totally different than what I expected and looks really bad!".

The post strategy is all about inevitability, resilience, ramp, and giant monsters/planeswalkers. Some of the lists might be wonky, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily a fundamentally different strategy.

Edit: For clarity, this isn't targeted at you specifically, nor am I saying that you are being unreasonable or rude or anything. I just wanted to push the point that we should have more meaningful reasoning when trying to show why we don't agree with any given post.

I agree with this. As far as thread goes, I think the best approach is to consider what is 'core', what are the 'threats', and what techniques/lines of play are best to get around those threats. For me the core of the deck is titan, eldrazi, and posts. All online, I first played the Top 8 Murata list, then the Mono-Green list and for the last 4-6 months have been testing the list I posted some pages back. Many people have debuted their own lists, which are all variable being influenced by individual playstyle and local meta's. However, I would say that despite this all lists are attempts to overcome a host of threats that are overall persistent, fairly constant and more or less unchanging. In other words the top threats that dominate the format are generally the same, and consequently are the most played. Delver, reanimator, omni, MUD, storm, are in my experience the most difficult. Why? I think the answer is ultra-fast combos, land destruction, and control. These are in sharp contrast to post which is generally a slow deck, heavily reliant on its lands, and has few threats that are fairly expensive. I would like to see this thread take the approach of identifying common threat themes and strategies/cards that work well against those themes. For instance in addition to 3x crop rotation, I play 4x stifles because it does land protection, can be used offensively, and has a variety of utilities (storm). Beginning a match my ideal starting hand would have a tropical/island with one or more land protection in hand, maybe a post or fow. After the draw, we can talk about surviving the next couple of turns against specific decks, and most importantly, weakpoints of the build and how to cover them.

I also get the impression that post is somewhat spread out, as if the core is too small, and not well fortified by multiple copies of support (1 cavern, 3x SNT). Thus 4 titans, 8-12 posts, 3 eldrazi and requisite green mana only accounts for a little over 1/3 of the deck. I do think that resolving titan is the surest path to victory.

Titan in hand, mana to play it, resolving it by turn 4 or having an impervious strategy to stay alive (against combo) until it does.

[TimHarding]

I agree with this. As far as thread goes, I think the best approach is to consider what is 'core', what are the 'threats', and what techniques/lines of play are best to get around those threats. For me the core of the deck is titan, eldrazi, and posts. All online, I first played the Top 8 Murata list, then the Mono-Green list and for the last 4-6 months have been testing the list I posted some pages back. Many people have debuted their own lists, which are all variable being influenced by individual playstyle and local meta's. However, I would say that despite this all lists are attempts to overcome a host of threats that are overall persistent, fairly constant and more or less unchanging. In other words the top threats that dominate the format are generally the same, and consequently are the most played. Delver, reanimator, omni, MUD, storm, are in my experience the most difficult. Why? I think the answer is ultra-fast combos, land destruction, and control. These are in sharp contrast to post which is generally a slow deck, heavily reliant on its lands, and has few threats that are fairly expensive. I would like to see this thread take the approach of identifying common threat themes and strategies/cards that work well against those themes. For instance in addition to 3x crop rotation, I play 4x stifles because it does land protection, can be used offensively, and has a variety of utilities (storm). Beginning a match my ideal starting hand would have a tropical/island with one or more land protection in hand, maybe a post or fow. After the draw, we can talk about surviving the next couple of turns against specific decks, and most importantly, weakpoints of the build and how to cover them.

I also get the impression that post is somewhat spread out, as if the core is too small, and not well fortified by multiple copies of support (1 cavern, 3x SNT). Thus 4 titans, 8-12 posts, 3 eldrazi and requisite green mana only accounts for a little over 1/3 of the deck. I do think that resolving titan is the surest path to victory.

Titan in hand, mana to play it, resolving it by turn 4 or having an impervious strategy to stay alive (against combo) until it does.

Well put. I agree with comments on the core of the deck.

I'm also about to try stifle! I think that's a pretty nifty addition no one would expect. The fact that it also hits wasteland is excellent too. I'm dreaming of hitting a craterhoof trigger.. What else do you target often?

[Postman]

Stifle sounds great! Countering Wasteland is great, but Stifle on Fetchland would be great as well, since most decks won't be able to sac a Wasteland in the next 2-3 turns after they have already lost a land... Second big target would be Planeswalker ultimates, especially Lilly :-D

[apple713]

Well put. I agree with comments on the core of the deck.

I'm also about to try stifle! I think that's a pretty nifty addition no one would expect. The fact that it also hits wasteland is excellent too. I'm dreaming of hitting a craterhoof trigger.. What else do you target often?

Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster mage, Batterskull, wasteland, tendrils of agony, fetchlands, knight of the reliquary, aether vial, kuldotha forge master, narcomeoba, eldrazi triggers, grisselbrand, jin gitaxis, goblin lackey, helm of obedience, phyrexian dreadnaught.


so i guess if you are worried about ETB effects, storm, or gaining tempo against fetch land use its good. Also, if you are running trinket make and decide to include stifle, 1 of phyrexian dreadnought isn't bad for a 1 of inclusion.

after googling this someone suggested putting stifle on a scepter...not the worst idea i ever heard but probably not recommended for this deck.

****EDIT : Stifle hits miracle triggers too.

[Postman]

Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster mage, Batterskull, wasteland, tendrils of agony, fetchlands, knight of the reliquary, aether vial, kuldotha forge master, narcomeoba, eldrazi triggers, grisselbrand, jin gitaxis, goblin lackey, helm of obedience, phyrexian dreadnaught.

so i guess if you are worried about ETB effects, storm, or gaining tempo against fetch land use its good. Also, if you are running trinket make and decide to include stifle, 1 of phyrexian dreadnought isn't bad for a 1 of inclusion.

after googling this someone suggested putting stifle on a scepter...not the worst idea i ever heard but probably not recommended for this deck.
Storm! You are absolutely wright! Great idea to have an out against storm main

[Zotmaster]

Well put. I agree with comments on the core of the deck.

I'm also about to try stifle! I think that's a pretty nifty addition no one would expect. The fact that it also hits wasteland is excellent too. I'm dreaming of hitting a craterhoof trigger.. What else do you target often?

Trickbind has been one of my pet cards for quite a while. While it does cost an additional mana, I find the fact that I can guarantee it will resolve to be a great boon. It can also be a one-shot surprise against Sneak and Skill players as you can keep them from using extra red mana to just activate again.

[maCHOOga]

Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster mage, Batterskull, wasteland, tendrils of agony, fetchlands, knight of the reliquary, aether vial, kuldotha forge master, narcomeoba, eldrazi triggers, grisselbrand, jin gitaxis, goblin lackey, helm of obedience, phyrexian dreadnaught.



You missed a few...Delver of Secrets, any miracle trigger, equip costs, etc. :-D At it's core, stifle is basically a tempo card which could be sufficient enough to buy time. Time is what 12post needs to win, so it might be worthwhile checking out. The surprise factor is also totally worth it!

One can assume that storm would have cabal therapy/duress/gitaxian probe'd you so they would have knowledge of the stifle. They should be able to play around it, however, its another hoop they have to jump through to achieve victory.

You haven't lived until you stifle a kuldotha forge master.

[bruizar]

Probably the most "deep end" build I've brewed sofar. Here is Dragonpost:

// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [BD] Island (2)
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Taiga
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Forest (1)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
4 [OD] Moment's Peace
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [CNS] Dack Fayden
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [BNG] Kiora, the Crashing Wave
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
2 [DOT] Sarkhan Unbroken
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 3 [UL] Crop Rotation


no dragons were involved or harmed in the building of this deck.

Plenty of tuning to happen here. Fow could easily be sb'd with crop and 1-2 utility lands main'd. That is probably the better build, but I am enjoying testing this preboarded version.

Can you provide some guidelines as to your choices? it's been a while since I played thus seeing so many colored walkers is really new for me. If you're going so overboard with the walkers, Eureka might be an idea. I remember you playing SnT after all.

[Hopo]

You missed a few... lion's Eye Diamond.

People should get their shit together with this Stifling mana abilities thing. This is surprisingly common misconcept.

[Ponders]

You missed a few...Delver of Secrets, any miracle trigger, equip costs, lion's Eye Diamond. :-D At it's core, stifle is basically a tempo card which could be sufficient enough to buy time. Time is what 12post needs to win, so it might be worthwhile checking out. The surprise factor is also totally worth it!

One can assume that storm would have cabal therapy/duress/gitaxian probe'd you so they would have knowledge of the stifle. They should be able to play around it, however, its another hoop they have to jump through to achieve victory.

You haven't lived until you stifle a kuldotha forge master.

Format wide, there are a lot of things you can do with stifle and I see that most of the favorites have already been mentioned. I once hid a copy topdeck with sensei's against a storm player. Flickerwisp, Aven Mindcensor, are two that I didn't see mentioned, SDT is another.

[Mockingbird]

Also, if you are running trinket make and decide to include stifle, 1 of phyrexian dreadnought isn't bad for a 1 of inclusion.

I would advise against Dreadnought simply because it does not gain a lot other than just being a really big body. Generally the deck likes to play towards value creatures effects over just simply a beatstick (after all, we don't play Tarmogoyf even though he's in our colors and a simpler 2 drop). Kind of why we stick to doing things like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80h9--OLT-s).

[apple713]

Format wide, there are a lot of things you can do with stifle and I see that most of the favorites have already been mentioned. I once hid a copy topdeck with sensei's against a storm player. Flickerwisp, Aven Mindcensor, are two that I didn't see mentioned, SDT is another.

theres nothing about aven mind censor that can be stifled. his ability is a replacement ability. when looking for things to stifle look for "when" or "whenever" or ":". Typically abilities that include "instead" would not be triggered abilities.

[Ponders]

Format wide, there are a lot of things you can do with stifle and I see that most of the favorites have already been mentioned. I once hid a copy topdeck with sensei's against a storm player. Flickerwisp, Aven Mindcensor, Mangara are two that I didn't see mentioned, SDT is another.

[bruizar]

I once stifled a mulligan. Guess who won that game.

[winglerw28]

If anybody has any experience with Stifle effects, it is Zotmaster. He has been trying them forever now, since even before Treasure Cruise. Watching him play them, I am not on board myself but cannot deny that they have been effective for him.

I am looking for feedback on the following build, as I've wanted to try Intuition for a very long time. Post runs many 3-ofs and can set up some powerful Intuition piles. If you have all three Eldrazi or Ugin you can just set up the "pick your poison" pile of three win conditions.



// Creatures
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Trinket Mage

// Planeswalkers
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Instants and Sorceries
4 Brainstorm
3 Repeal
3 Intuition
3 Show and Tell
3 Crop Rotation

// Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
2 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Engineered Explosives

// Land
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Academy Ruins
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

// Sideboard
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Swan Song
2 Flusterstorm
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale




Essentially a more conservative, back to the roots approach that still has some new technology in there. I am unsure if I'd rather Dragonlord Dromoka be Silumgar, the Drifting Death to kill True-Name Nemesis, Dark Confidant, and Young Pyromancer + tokens. Dromoka certainly is a better clock and I think closing the game out is stronger overall, but I'm not sure.

[TimHarding]

If anybody has any experience with Stifle effects, it is Zotmaster. He has been trying them forever now, since even before Treasure Cruise. Watching him play them, I am not on board myself but cannot deny that they have been effective for him.

I am looking for feedback on the following build, as I've wanted to try Intuition for a very long time. Post runs many 3-ofs and can set up some powerful Intuition piles. If you have all three Eldrazi or Ugin you can just set up the "pick your poison" pile of three win conditions.



Essentially a more conservative, back to the roots approach that still has some new technology in there. I am unsure if I'd rather Dragonlord Dromoka be Silumgar, the Drifting Death to kill True-Name Nemesis, Dark Confidant, and Young Pyromancer + tokens. Dromoka certainly is a better clock and I think closing the game out is stronger overall, but I'm not sure.

I really like this take on intuition. Adding shuffle effects is a huge plus! With academy ruins, some artifact creatures might be more attractive to loop instead of dragons, I don't think they're powerful enough for the colors and CMC.

I'm stone set on MD FOW these days, and intuition might provide that extra control I'm looking for.. I may try it over ponder.

*adds shiney heaven of spirit dragon to cart*

[winglerw28]

I really like this take on intuition. Adding shuffle effects is a huge plus! With academy ruins, some artifact creatures might be more attractive to loop instead of dragons, I don't think they're powerful enough for the colors and CMC.

I'm stone set on MD FOW these days, and intuition might provide that extra control I'm looking for.. I may try it over ponder.

*adds shiney heaven of spirit dragon to cart*

Another thing to consider (somewhat controversially) is that Primeval Titan may be somewhat overrated. If you can cut Primeval Titan for Explorations you can make the deck a much more proactive deck while not sacrificing the ability to play Force of Will due to lack of card spots.

Based on a conversation I've been having with Zot, removing Show and Titan makes room for Ancient Stirrings and Wurmcoil, which would fit the intuition build excellently as well.

Edit: I also just thought of something - cutting Prime Time could make our Intuitions better by giving us Titania for a pile of Ugin + Titania + Haven or Wurmcoil + Ruins + Titania.

Edit 2: Also, Crucible of Worlds seems strong as well. Exploration + Crucible + Chasm is niiice.

[kingtk3]

Another thing to consider (somewhat controversially) is that Primeval Titan may be somewhat overrated. If you can cut Primeval Titan for Explorations you can make the deck a much more proactive deck while not sacrificing the ability to play Force of Will due to lack of card spots.

Based on a conversation I've been having with Zot, removing Show and Titan makes room for Ancient Stirrings and Wurmcoil, which would fit the intuition build excellently as well.

Edit: I also just thought of something - cutting Prime Time could make our Intuitions better by giving us Titania for a pile of Ugin + Titania + Haven or Wurmcoil + Ruins + Titania.

Edit 2: Also, Crucible of Worlds seems strong as well. Exploration + Crucible + Chasm is niiice.

I was about to talk about crucible too: if you plan to remove S&T and Titans in favor of Exploration, you should play a couple of crucibles because you could Intuition for posts and play them from the grave, essentially ramping like titan does.
You lose a big body, a win condition and a repeatable search effect in liu of a lower curve, a more versatile tutor and an insurance against LD decks.

[winglerw28]

The more I think about this the more I like the idea behind this build... Building upon these ideas, maybe I will try this:



// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Trinket Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

// Planeswalkers
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Instants and Sorceries
4 Brainstorm
3 Repeal
3 Intuition
3 Force of Will
3 Crop Rotation
1 Dig Through Time

// Artifacts and Enchantments
4 Exploration
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

// Land
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Vesuva
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

// Sideboard
1 Force of Will
3 Swan Song
2 Flusterstorm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Karn Liberated
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge




This build has resiliency, reach, inevitability, and combo protection. Arcane Laboratory or effects such as Thorn of Amethyst might be better in this build than some of the counterspells out of the board, but I didn't want to hedge so much against storm that there were no sideboard cards for Sneak and Show.

[TheBoozeCube]

I was about to talk about crucible too: if you plan to remove S&T and Titans in favor of Exploration, you should play a couple of crucibles because you could Intuition for posts and play them from the grave, essentially ramping like titan does.
You lose a big body, a win condition and a repeatable search effect in liu of a lower curve, a more versatile tutor and an insurance against LD decks.

I've been playing a Titan-less Exploration build for years. If you drop Titan and S&T, the real benefit is Ancient Stirrings. You can up your colorless count and play one of the most powerful dig spells ever. The consistency it gives you is incredible and massively improves your mulligans.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ponders]

I was about to talk about crucible too: if you plan to remove S&T and Titans in favor of Exploration, you should play a couple of crucibles because you could Intuition for posts and play them from the grave, essentially ramping like titan does.
You lose a big body, a win condition and a repeatable search effect in liu of a lower curve, a more versatile tutor and an insurance against LD decks.

This is an interesting thought. I would wonder if you were only trying to ramp up to an eldrazi why bother play post at all? Why not Omni-tell? What specific advantage does post offer? In addition, I wonder at whether removing titans make the deck more vulnerable to removal? Versus miracles it wouldn't surprise me to get both Koz and Ula Swords to Plowshared. After that, councils judgement on your Emrakul and what do you have left?

[apple713]

I've been playing a Titan-less Exploration build for years. If you drop Titan and S&T, the real benefit is Ancient Stirrings. You can up your colorless count and play one of the most powerful dig spells ever. The consistency it gives you is incredible and massively improves your mulligans.


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If i did something like this there would be no doubt id up my vesuva count and include sylvan library. Consider exploration crucible glimerpost glacial chasm sylvan library. Obviously you arnt trying for it but it would naturally happen ocasionally

[winglerw28]

I like Sylvan Library a lot... what would I cut to make room for that though? hmm... Lots of good ideas floating around. Another thing I really like about some of the lists that BoozeCube has posted is that I really like Maze of Ith + Candelabra.

[TheBoozeCube]

Just 4-0ed tonight's Legacy daily. Same monogreen list I've been on forever. I'm far too tired to repost the list again or write a real tournament report, but here were my matchups:

Round 1 - Miracles (apparently, I was the bad guy on Joe Lossett's stream)
Round 2 - ANT
Round 3 - UW Stoneblade
Round 4 - Dredge

All of my matches were won 2-0 except for ANT, which went to game 3. I didn't sideboard correctly in game 2 because I couldn't tell whether my opponent was on Storm, Reanimator, or something else; he scooped to T4 Kozilek + Ulamog before I could tell what he was doing.

[Mockingbird]

Just 4-0ed tonight's Legacy daily. Same monogreen list I've been on forever. I'm far too tired to repost the list again or write a real tournament report, but here were my matchups:

Round 1 - Miracles (apparently, I was the bad guy on Joe Lossett's stream)
Round 2 - ANT
Round 3 - UW Stoneblade
Round 4 - Dredge

All of my matches were won 2-0 except for ANT, which went to game 3. I didn't sideboard correctly in game 2 because I couldn't tell whether my opponent was on Storm, Reanimator, or something else; he scooped to T4 Kozilek + Ulamog before I could tell what he was doing.

What's your username? I'll keep an eye out for when it gets posted to MTGGoldfish.

[Loxmatii]

my latest list is:

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ST] Island (1)
1 [P3] Forest (2)

1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [LG] Karakas

2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost


// Creatures
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan


// Spells
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [UL] Crop Rotation

4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [WWK] Explore


2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

4 [US] Show and Tell

3 [GP] Repeal

2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [THS] Swan Song

SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere

SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage

SB: 2 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 1 [MR] Platinum Angel
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


i like explore very much here. i think it does a great amount of job. Of course, i always think abount ponders instead explores. But now tests told me, that i should continue with explores

i miss trinket in main very much =( Dont see empty slots for him

in mainboard i am not sure about cavern

in sideboard Angel makes me feel good against different mu.

[TheBoozeCube]

What's your username? I'll keep an eye out for when it gets posted to MTGGoldfish.

It's theboozecube. When do they get posted? I'm still new to MTGO. I basically just bought my deck online to get more practice in.


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[Mockingbird]

It's theboozecube. When do they get posted? I'm still new to MTGO. I basically just bought my deck online to get more practice in.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNot sure. But from the looks of this weeks Daily results on the mothership (which were posted the 31st), you may not show up until next week. Congrats by the way.

[TheBoozeCube]

Not sure. But from the looks of this weeks Daily results on the mothership (which were posted the 31st), you may not show up until next week. Congrats by the way.

Do they always post them? I couldn't find myself when I went 3-1 a few weeks ago.


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[MtgVector]

Has anyone else taken a crack at this list:

http://www.happymtg.com/coverage/25460/

(third list)

4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
2 thespian stage
3 maze of ith
1 diamond valley
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 buried ruin
1 dust bowl
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 ancient tomb
1 cavern of souls
1 eye of ugin
2 wurm coil engine
1 sundering titan
1 kozilek, butcher of truth
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
2 all is dust
4 expedition map
4 pithing needle
2 candelabra of tawnos
3 grim monolith
2 mind stone
1 crucible of worlds
1 trading post
3 staff of nin
1 mind slaver
2 ugin, the spirit dragon

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Defense Grid
2 Cursed Totem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Spine of Ish Sah

Basically is a Cloudpost MUD with some out of the box choices. [-]I'm still really puzzled how the pilot of this deck would cast Trade Routes against a non-blue deck...[/-] *Nvm, it should be Trading Post as Mockingbird bellow suggests.

[Mockingbird]

Has anyone else taken a crack at this list:

http://www.happymtg.com/coverage/25460/

(third list)

Basically is a Cloudpost MUD with some out of the box choices. I'm still really puzzled how the pilot of this deck would cast Trade Routes against a non-blue deck...Considering the Engrish translation attempt by Google (EDIT: or it could be a typo)... I think Trade Routes is supposed to actually be Trading Post.

2 "Yawgmoth of tomb, Abogu"
1 "Karakas"
1 "Bojuka of swamp"
4 "Clouds of seat"
4 "low light areas"
4 "Vu~ezuvu~a"
3 "Ancient Tomb"
2 "theater stage"
1 "soul Cave "
1 "dust bowl"
1 "buried ruins"
3 "Maze of Ith"
1 "Diamond Valley"
1 "The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale"
1 "Ugin of eyes"
- Land (30) -

2 "worm coil-engine"
1 "Titan isolate"
1 "truth of Butcher, Kozilek"
1 "torn Shi eons, Emurakuru"
- Creature (5) -

2 "all the dust"
4 "expedition map"
4 "of the essence needle"
2 "Candelabra of Tawnos"
3 "solemn monolith"
2 "spirit stone"
1 "of the world crucible"
1 "trade routes"
3 "of Nin cane "
1 "spirit slavery instrument"
2 "spirit dragon, Ugin"
- Spell (25) -

4 "Void of force line"
3 "resistance of the Sphere"
2 "Golem magnet"
2 "defense of optical network"
2 "Cursed Totem"
1 "worm coil-engine"
1 "Ish Sur of the spine"
- Sideboard (15) -

It's too late for me to try to clean this up* right now and take a stab at the less obvious cards, so I'm just going to come back in the morning and see if I can fix it if no one else has already.

*Also, I will admit this off beat names do amuse me as well.

[prgmctan]

2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Thespian’s Stage
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dust Bowl
3 Maze of Ith
1 Diamond Valley
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Eye of Ugin

2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 All Is Dust
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Grim Monolith
2 Mind Stone
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trading post
3 Staff of Nin
1 Mindslaver
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Defense Grid
2 Cursed Totem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Spine of Ish Sah

[Klobster]

Do they always post them? I couldn't find myself when I went 3-1 a few weeks ago.


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No. They only post the results of one daily per day. And they run 3 of them per day. Gotta be in the right one. I have no idea how they choose them.

[MtgVector]

No. They only post the results of one daily per day. And they run 3 of them per day. Gotta be in the right one. I have no idea how they choose them.

It's based on attendance. The event with the highest number of players through the day, gets posted. Except when they don't post any because of reasons.

[MGB]

I wonder if Rock Lee tried his new experimental build at the Premier IQ in Syracuse today. It would be interesting to hear his take on its results, because as of right now it looks as if he went 2-3 and then dropped...

[Rock Lee]

I wonder if Rock Lee tried his new experimental build at the Premier IQ in Syracuse today. It would be interesting to hear his take on its results, because as of right now it looks as if he went 2-3 and then dropped...

My worst SCG showing yet. Not only in record, but also in my play.

I lost round 2 to Miracles in 1 game by not attacking with an emrakul.

I lost round 3 to Junk by "hiding" a primeval titan from an inquisition of kozilek thinking thoughtseize and then surgical shuffling my unnecessarily hidden titan away.

Just shame all around.

Was very off my game.



My list was punishing fire in normal u/g. I think the build is very strong atm, and am still tuning it. The only loss I had that I count is my round 5 loss to a Myth Realized pyromancer patriot delver list. Interesting build, some horrific rng and a truly unpleasant opponent who abused the horrible head judge's (the same head judge who I reported for making incorrect calls at GP NJ and knocking me out of Top 8) calls multiple times.

[winglerw28]

My worst SCG showing yet. Not only in record, but also in my play.

I lost round 2 to Miracles in 1 game by not attacking with an emrakul.

I lost round 3 to Junk by "hiding" a primeval titan from an inquisition of kozilek thinking thoughtseize and then surgical shuffling my unnecessarily hidden titan away.

Just shame all around.

Was very off my game.



My list was punishing fire in normal u/g. I think the build is very strong atm, and am still tuning it. The only loss I had that I count is my round 5 loss to a Myth Realized pyromancer patriot delver list. Interesting build, some horrific rng and a truly unpleasant opponent who abused the horrible head judge's (the same head judge who I reported for making incorrect calls at GP NJ and knocking me out of Top 8) calls multiple times.

Sounds like a bad day rather than a bad list. Also, sucks that the Head Judge made bad rulings - what was the situation in question that happened (my curiosity as a judge at work here)?

Punishing Fire seems very well positioned right now. I've played both Lands and Jund at my local tournament recently and the SCG metagame seems to reciprocate my experience - small creature-based or Jace decks everywhere.

[TheBoozeCube]

It's based on attendance. The event with the highest number of players through the day, gets posted. Except when they don't post any because of reasons.

Looks like my list made it:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-daily-2015-04-06-2


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[apple713]

Looks like my list made it:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-daily-2015-04-06-2


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whats not right about that list? it shows 61 main and 14 sideboard

p[layed around with the 61 card version. if the deck doesn't mull to oblivion its nice. i forgot how powerful candles are. and kozelik is better as a draw tool to fuel exploration and other things.

[Charon]

My worst SCG showing yet. Not only in record, but also in my play.

I lost round 2 to Miracles in 1 game by not attacking with an emrakul.

I lost round 3 to Junk by "hiding" a primeval titan from an inquisition of kozilek thinking thoughtseize and then surgical shuffling my unnecessarily hidden titan away.

Just shame all around.

Was very off my game.



My list was punishing fire in normal u/g. I think the build is very strong atm, and am still tuning it. The only loss I had that I count is my round 5 loss to a Myth Realized pyromancer patriot delver list. Interesting build, some horrific rng and a truly unpleasant opponent who abused the horrible head judge's (the same head judge who I reported for making incorrect calls at GP NJ and knocking me out of Top 8) calls multiple times.

I watched you get stalled by that miracles player. That was BS.

[MGB]

I watched you get stalled by that miracles player. That was BS.

What were the circumstances of this exactly? I have had a problem with slow play in tournaments myself and often it is a Miracles player who is involved. It seems that, if you don't win G1, they try hard to drag the game on, and what can you do other than call a judge and watch for slow play? Did Rock call the guy on slow play or what?

[Charon]

In this case, a judge was there and made some interesting decisions that allowed miracles to drag it out so long that the only possibility was a win for miracles or a draw.

The head judge ruled, so really he had done everything he could.

[winglerw28]

I'm not sure how much I like Force of Will with my list at the moment, so I am also going to test an alternate list:



// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Trinket Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

// Planeswalkers
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Instants and Sorceries
4 Brainstorm
2 Repeal
3 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
2 Sudden Reclamation
1 Moment's Peace

// Artifacts and Enchantments
4 Exploration
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

// Land
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Vesuva
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith

// Sideboard
3 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karn Liberated
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Krosan Grip




Sudden Reclamation feels like a viable Fact or Fiction replacement in this build. Not only is it great with Intuition (think of a pile with Titania/Land/Sudden Reclamation or Wurmcoil/Academy Ruins/Sudden Reclamation), but it also puts the cards into your hand as part of the resolution of the spell so it gets around the Eldrazi shuffle trigger. It is almost a tutor in this build, allowing you to just grab whatever land or creature (including Eldrazi) you want.

[TheBoozeCube]

whats not right about that list? it shows 61 main and 14 sideboard

p[layed around with the 61 card version. if the deck doesn't mull to oblivion its nice. i forgot how powerful candles are. and kozelik is better as a draw tool to fuel exploration and other things.

The 61/14 configuration is intentional. I'm effectively just boarding into Tabernacle for game 1. The slight change in probability is outweighed by the game 1 blowouts you get in the matchups where access to Tabernacle matters, and you can just Crop it away if you draw it when it doesn't. Under the new rules, you usually just board down to 60 for games 2/3.


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[Barook]

Under the new rules, you usually just board down to 60 for games 2/3.
Except that's illegal. You can't have more cards in your sideboard than the initial number, while you can increase the number of MD cards.

So 62/13 would be fine, but going 60/15 with an initial 61/14 doesn't work.

[iamajellydonut]

some interesting decisions... THAT SHALL NOT BE NAMED

You guys are the worst at giving details.

[TheBoozeCube]

Except that's illegal. You can't have more cards in your sideboard than the initial number, while you can increase the number of MD cards.

So 62/13 would be fine, but going 60/15 with an initial 61/14 doesn't work.

It's perfectly legal. Your initial number no longer matters, so long as your main is always at least 60 and your side no more than 15.


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[MtgVector]

It's perfectly legal. Your initial number no longer matters, so long as your main is always at least 60 and your side no more than 15.


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That's such a simple and elegant solution. I had that same problem myself, but would always do a 61/15 configuration when needed. 61/14 is better since the one or two sb games are better tuned, plus it's equivalent to a 60/15.

Also, ditto on legality. This rule was changed a couple of years ago to minimize unwarranted penalties on smaller sideboards (which are effectively less advantageous).

[Barook]

It's perfectly legal. Your initial number no longer matters, so long as your main is always at least 60 and your side no more than 15.
Oh well (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248e)

[TimHarding]

What were the circumstances of this exactly? I have had a problem with slow play in tournaments myself and often it is a Miracles player who is involved. It seems that, if you don't win G1, they try hard to drag the game on, and what can you do other than call a judge and watch for slow play? Did Rock call the guy on slow play or what?

At the very first SDT activation that is more than a breaths length, I declare that they aren't playing fast enough. The very next time, I call a judge. They will either watch the match, or see Tundra+Top and give slow play warning. They may even already have a warning or draw on their points total. There's no penalty for calling it, once there's 10 mins left and no judge has been called, there's nothing you can do to stop the bleeding. I greet known slow players in my area with "hi, I'm not going to let you take this to time".

[Zotmaster]

So wingler and I have been brewing. Basically, I gave him a direction and he whipped up the list on the previous page. I love the deck, but we've been trying to look at fundamentally what the deck is and, perhaps more importantly, what it is not. Part of me has felt that Primeval Titan is one of the core problem cards in the deck. The core of the deck has always been built around making land drops, ramping your mana, and summoning big, dumb spaghetti monsters. Titan, though powerful and obviously conducive to the ramp strategy, usually is not that wincon by itself. The wincons are almost always colorless. Sure, there are some matchups where Titan can get there for you, but it is usually more of a means to an end rather than that actual end. Along the same lines, Show and Tell has also felt problematic. In most games, Titan is the optimal Show target, but it still runs into that problem I mentioned above: if I'm resolving a Show, I don't want to be way ahead, I just want to win. Why ramp my lands when I could just play Sneak & Skill and just win the game out of that spot?

Wingler put together the deck on the previous page and I played it tonight. I have to say, it has potential...although leave it to us to take one of the hardest decks to pilot correctly in Legacy and actually make it even more difficult to pilot correctly. Crucible of Worlds does tons of work. Especially combined with Intuition, things get ridiculous. A great pile is Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Haven of the Spirit Dragon and either Crucible of Worlds or Titania, Protector of Argoth. Basically, your opponent has the option of giving you Ugin, the card that gets you Ugin, or a card that gets you the card that gets you Ugin.

We're still brewing - and this plan definitely needs some number of Krosan Grip - but I think it's a good idea for all of us to take a closer look at what we're trying to do with the deck at the most basic level. Sometimes it feels like I'm playing a slightly inferior version of a bunch of different decks, and although I'm having fun, I still think we have other avenues to explore.

[Charon]

You guys are the worst at giving details.

I was just a watcher, I would rather let the person who had it happen to them give the details than my second hand account.

[apple713]

Wingler put together the deck on the previous page and I played it tonight. I have to say, it has potential...although leave it to us to take one of the hardest decks to pilot correctly in Legacy and actually make it even more difficult to pilot correctly. Crucible of Worlds does tons of work. Especially combined with Intuition, things get ridiculous. A great pile is Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Haven of the Spirit Dragon and either Crucible of Worlds or Titania, Protector of Argoth. Basically, your opponent has the option of giving you Ugin, the card that gets you Ugin, or a card that gets you the card that gets you Ugin.

We're still brewing - and this plan definitely needs some number of Krosan Grip - but I think it's a good idea for all of us to take a closer look at what we're trying to do with the deck at the most basic level. Sometimes it feels like I'm playing a slightly inferior version of a bunch of different decks, and although I'm having fun, I still think we have other avenues to explore.

ok so at this point you are just increasing the end game consistency. The issue still lies in getting to that point quicker. Titan accomplishes that. Although titan does not directly win the game, consider how many games you lose after resolving 1? although I don't have the same experience you do, resolving a titan is almost equatable to winning.

a the point where you are using haven to get back Ugin, you create a seemingly less efficient way to win than through emrakul. Of course its just a different strategy but only really great when you have a good amount of time to recur it.

Also, i played someone else's version of a deck recently that used the full 12post land set, and surprisingly I miss how powerful having those extra vesuva's are. It doesn't seem like it on its face but a vesuva that gains you 3 life, is in many cases a time walk, especially when the opponent is just hitting you with a delver. Furthermore, as the number increases you get more value. Of course this is not always the case because sometimes a turn's worth of threats are greater than 3 life per turn but I think that it's a good way of thinking about the excess lands (as creating miniature time walks) With something that allows you to play more lands every turn like exploration, and something that allows you to draw cards (sylvan library, kozelik) you really turn into a ramping machine

[winglerw28]

ok so at this point you are just increasing the end game consistency. The issue still lies in getting to that point quicker. Titan accomplishes that. Although titan does not directly win the game, consider how many games you lose after resolving 1? although I don't have the same experience you do, resolving a titan is almost equatable to winning.

a the point where you are using haven to get back Ugin, you create a seemingly less efficient way to win than through emrakul. Of course its just a different strategy but only really great when you have a good amount of time to recur it.

Also, i played someone else's version of a deck recently that used the full 12post land set, and surprisingly I miss how powerful having those extra vesuva's are. It doesn't seem like it on its face but a vesuva that gains you 3 life, is in many cases a time walk, especially when the opponent is just hitting you with a delver. Furthermore, as the number increases you get more value. Of course this is not always the case because sometimes a turn's worth of threats are greater than 3 life per turn but I think that it's a good way of thinking about the excess lands (as creating miniature time walks) With something that allows you to play more lands every turn like exploration, and something that allows you to draw cards (sylvan library, kozelik) you really turn into a ramping machine

I think you severely underestimate the power of Exploration. Testing with Zot yesterday, there were several times where I cast Kozilek or Ulamog far sooner than if I had a Primeval Titan. In addition, it allows you to actually do things when your main game plan is disrupted due to lowered amount of dead draws when you have a rough early game. My list doesn't improve the end game - it improves the early game. I have lost many games because I needed to crutch on Show and Tell or Primeval Titan. While they are powerful cards in their own right and win many games on accident, they aren't necessarily the end-all be-all and are certainly disruptive and have their downsides. Looks at TheBoozeCube's list - it has enjoyed quite a bit of success for him against real opponents despite having 0 Primeval Titan.

We actually felt the list was odd-feeling because you simply didn't have time to cast Prime Time. It actually would just slow the list down from its game plan. You can still win with Emrakul as well.

[Barook]

I think you severely underestimate the power of Exploration. Testing with Zot yesterday, there were several times where I cast Kozilek or Ulamog far sooner than if I had a Primeval Titan. In addition, it allows you to actually do things when your main game plan is disrupted due to lowered amount of dead draws when you have a rough early game. My list doesn't improve the end game - it improves the early game. I have lost many games because I needed to crutch on Show and Tell or Primeval Titan. While they are powerful cards in their own right and win many games on accident, they aren't necessarily the end-all be-all and are certainly disruptive and have their downsides. Looks at TheBoozeCube's list - it has enjoyed quite a bit of success for him against real opponents despite having 0 Primeval Titan.

We actually felt the list was odd-feeling because you simply didn't have time to cast Prime Time. It actually would just slow the list down from its game plan. You can still win with Emrakul as well.
How would Courser of Kruphix or Oracle of Mul Daya work in the Exploration build?

[TimHarding]

ok so at this point you are just increasing the end game consistency. The issue still lies in getting to that point quicker. Titan accomplishes that. Although titan does not directly win the game, consider how many games you lose after resolving 1? although I don't have the same experience you do, resolving a titan is almost equatable to winning.

Yes, but do not forget Titan is a lot more than just a stepping stone to get to Emrakul and winning. He most often the point you must reach to stay alive. Don't forget that he is also 4 additional copies of (double) crop rotation. Sticking Titan can get you Cloudposts, but if you are actually in that luxurious position and in goldfish mode, you were winning that game anyway. The real power is putting 6 toughness in the way of their goyf, gaining 6 off of STP, glimmer-walking, bogging the graveyard deck, getting Karakas to stabilize for good against sneak, getting chasm to not get killed by the cratehoof swing-back (or any swing back). I think he's central to the strategy, and instead of replacing him I'd love to see him work WITH exploration. That sounds turbo as fuck to me.

[winglerw28]

Yes, but do not forget Titan is a lot more than just a stepping stone to get to Emrakul and winning. He most often the point you must reach to stay alive. Don't forget that he is also 4 additional copies of (double) crop rotation. Sticking Titan can get you Cloudposts, but if you are actually in that luxurious position and in goldfish mode, you were winning that game anyway. The real power is putting 6 toughness in the way of their goyf, gaining 6 off of STP, glimmer-walking, bogging the graveyard deck, getting Karakas to stabilize for good against sneak, getting chasm to not get killed by the cratehoof swing-back (or any swing back). I think he's central to the strategy, and instead of replacing him I'd love to see him work WITH exploration. That sounds turbo as fuck to me.

It is very turbo, but the texture of this build is a lot different... I'd try TheBoozeCube's build to get an idea of what the deck feels like. It is much more lands-esque, but definitely still a post deck. You have enough velocity to go over the top of smaller decks before their Goyf even matters (as in, I cast a turn 3 Kozilek recently in testing...). Maze + Candel and Crucible + Glacial Chasm are very powerful tools that let you play around their cards very fluidly and with little care about non-graveyard hate. I am certainly not trying to argue that Primeval Titan is an incorrect or underpowered choice - I simply don't like it in context of the 75 I'm currently running. For reference, this is the list I'm testing next Tuesday at my local and this week with Zot and other friends:



// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Trinket Mage

// Planeswalkers
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Instants and Sorceries
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Cropt Rotation
3 Intuition
1 Sudden Reclamation

// Artifacts and Enchantments
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Exploration
1 Crucible of Worlds

// Land
3 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Academy Ruins
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog

// Sideboard
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip




Side note: I just noticed this, and I find it humorous because I'm lame like this - to edit my decklist I have to click 'edit post'. :D

[Barook]

@winglerw28: Wouldn't be Life from the Loam be a better Intuition target? Or is "CoW + Ruins + card you actually want" so much better?

[winglerw28]

@winglerw28: Wouldn't be Life from the Loam be a better Intuition target? Or is "CoW + Ruins + card you actually want" so much better?

I tried Life from the Loam and it requires really awkward things to happen like cutting Eldrazi or making complex lines for the sake of being cool. As much as I would LOVE Loam in this deck, I can't seem to make it work without sacrificing the integrity of the deck. Sudden Reclamation is somewhat a concession to this as it allows me to get back Eldrazi in response to them going to the yard. Here are some of the Intuition lines:

Crucible + Ruins + Sudden Reclamation or Titania allows for Crucible to be set up.
Crucible or Titania + Haven of the Spirit Dragon + Ugin allows for you to set up an inevitable Ugin.
Crucible or Titania + Academy Ruins + Artifact gives you an artifact tutor.
Eye + Eldrazi + Eldrazi allows you to guarantee an Eldrazi.
Land + Land or Creature + Sudden Reclamation allows you a guaranteed tutor with card advantage to back it up.

There are a ton of lines, but those are some of the more common ones.

EDIT: To clarify, Crucible of Worlds is better than Loam but not because Loam is bad - they do different things. Loam is actually great WITH Crucible since you have Ruins, Eye of Ugin, and Academy Ruins, but the deck can't fit both and Loam is far more awkward with Eldrazis.

[TheBoozeCube]

EDIT: To clarify, Crucible of Worlds is better than Loam but not because Loam is bad - they do different things. Loam is actually great WITH Crucible since you have Ruins, Eye of Ugin, and Academy Ruins, but the deck can't fit both and Loam is far more awkward with Eldrazis.

This is precisely why my experimental Loam-based list had to drop Eldrazi. But that's why I went with Steel Hellkite and Sundering Titan as threats (other than Ugin) rather than something like Titania. You can use Academy Ruins to recur either of them, and Haven also recurs Hellkite. Hellkite in particular seems the right call for this type of build. Aside from the quasi-Deed effect when it connects, he also uses colorless mana for firebreathing.

I still haven't had time to do testing to determine whether that list is any good...

[TheBoozeCube]

Just 4-0ed my second Daily in a row. Matchups were:

1. ANT (2-1)
2. Dredge (2-0)
3. Imperial Painter (2-1)
4. Jeskai Stoneblade (2-0)

Same monogreen Titan-less list as last time (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-daily-2015-04-06-2).

[winglerw28]

After some testing in real life, I found that the list I had didn't solve some of the holes in the deck that I had set out to fix, the primary one being early in the game against a delver player (BUG being the most difficult) where you stall out and have no permanent answer to the efficient and fast creatures being thrown onto the board. Some games you get lucky and get EE and some games you go over the top, and the list I was testing definitely felt like an improvement but began using the Graveyard to such a degree that Deathrite Shaman was actually a major annoyance. I really wanted a solution to that type of situation to build upon Maze of Ith, so I decided to try Punishing Fire when I got home. Testing it on Cockatrice, it definitely feels like the right call. In addition, I think Tim (and others) were correct in trying to convince me to use Primeval Titan. Even though it isn't necessary, Exploration + Primeval Titan will just sometimes close out games before they start against anyone trying to play fair. Another card I felt like the deck really wanted was Petrified Field, which is mostly to go with Intuition because Titania was somewhat clunky.

I think that some more work needs to be done, but let me tell you one thing - it feels pretty darn good to have access to Krosan Grip + Red Elemental Blast + Pyroblast + Bane of Progress out of the board against Omni-Tell. I am going to hold off posting any more updates to the deck until after I play it next Tuesday - I don't want to spam the thread and I don't want to give too much secret tech to the other people at my shop who know I post here. :smile:


Just 4-0ed my second Daily in a row. Matchups were:

1. ANT (2-1)
2. Dredge (2-0)
3. Imperial Painter (2-1)
4. Jeskai Stoneblade (2-0)

Same monogreen Titan-less list as last time (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-daily-2015-04-06-2).

Congrats! It seems like the proactive anti-combo hate approach has worked well for you, I see. I really wish I could try this build at my local, but I only own two Candelabras. :frown:

[Barook]

Just 4-0ed my second Daily in a row. Matchups were:

1. ANT (2-1)
2. Dredge (2-0)
3. Imperial Painter (2-1)
4. Jeskai Stoneblade (2-0)

Same monogreen Titan-less list as last time (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-daily-2015-04-06-2).
Are there any changes you would make yet? That list piques my interest (although 250 tix for the missing cards is kinda hefty), especially since the MODO programmers can't be assed to fix the bug of Vesuva copying Cavern (copied Caverns can't tap for colored mana).

Why a 2/2 split between Ugin and All is Dust? Wouldn't be a 3/1 better, since Ugin also doubles as wincon?

[TheBoozeCube]

Are there any changes you would make yet? That list piques my interest (although 250 tix for the missing cards is kinda hefty), especially since the MODO programmers can't be assed to fix the bug of Vesuva copying Cavern (copied Caverns can't tap for colored mana).

Why a 2/2 split between Ugin and All is Dust? Wouldn't be a 3/1 better, since Ugin also doubles as wincon?

I can't think of any changes right now. The list has been running incredibly smoothly.

The main reason for the 2/2 split is mana cost. The extra 1 (or 3 with the Eye) is surprisingly relevant in a few key situations:

1. You can consistently hit 7 on turn 3 without Exploration or Candelabra, but not 8. This is huge for being able to wipe the board against Elves.

2. An extra turn (and land drop) can make the difference against Blood Moon. This is more paper for me, as there's several good Dragon Stompy players in my area.

3. Sometimes you're behind with a board Cloudpost, 2x Glimmerpost, Eye. The extra 3 mana is huge here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Barook]

I can't think of any changes right now. The list has been running incredibly smoothly.

The main reason for the 2/2 split is mana cost. The extra 1 (or 3 with the Eye) is surprisingly relevant in a few key situations:

1. You can consistently hit 7 on turn 3 without Exploration or Candelabra, but not 8. This is huge for being able to wipe the board against Elves.

2. An extra turn (and land drop) can make the difference against Blood Moon. This is more paper for me, as there's several good Dragon Stompy players in my area.

3. Sometimes you're behind with a board Cloudpost, 2x Glimmerpost, Eye. The extra 3 mana is huge here.
I bought the missing cards and played a few games to get a feel for the deck. So far, it seems pretty impressive.

Any tips regarding boarding strategies? What do you board in what match-up?

I'd like to take it to a Legacy DE sooner or later.

[TheBoozeCube]

I bought the missing cards and played a few games to get a feel for the deck. So far, it seems pretty impressive.

Any tips regarding boarding strategies? What do you board in what match-up?

I'd like to take it to a Legacy DE sooner or later.

Storm
-3 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 All Is Dust, -2 Ugin, -3 Pithing Needle
+4 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Surgical Extraction +4 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: Tabernacle stays in to hedge against Empty the Warrens. This is a terrible matchup game 1, but very winnable postboard. Be patient and save Crop Rotation as a response to Past in Flames.)

Miracles
-3 Exploration, -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone, +1 Surgical Extraction

Elves
-3 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog
+4 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Oblivion Stone
(Note: I board out Maze because it's not going to save you from a Craterhoof stampede, and you usually have enough time to wipe their board if they're just swinging in with some Elves for a few turns.)

RUG/BUG Delver
-3 Exploration
+2 Surgical Extraction
(Note: This is more for when you are on the play. Surgical comes in primarily for Wasteland, with Force of Will as a secondary target. On the draw, the initial configuration is actually best. Exploration helps overcome tempo lost from their Wastelands and using early land drops for Maze. Bojuka Bog can come out if they don't appear to be playing Snapcaster or Nimble Mongoose.)

UR Delver
-1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Pithing Needle
+2 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Krosan Grip
(Note: You can bring in additional Spheres instead of Grips if they aren't playing Eidolon, although be careful of Null Rod if you do. Spheres are definitely at their best on the play.)

UWR Delver/UWx Stoneblade
-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Tabernacle, -3 Exploration
+1 Oblivion Stone, +3 Krosan Grip

Dredge
-3 Pithing Needle, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: One Maze is left to answer a large Grave Troll if they go that route. I'm still not sure about cutting them for Surgical in the non-manaless matchup, as they do well at dealing with Ichorids. In the manaless matchup, however, it might even be worth bringing in the full set of Spheres, as Sphere + Tabernacle is a straight-up hard lock if you can deal with Ichorid.)

Reanimator
-1 Tabernacle, -2 Ugin, -3 Pithing Needle
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: Pithing Needle is a difficult cut here, but their only target is Griselbrand, although granted it's a strong one. That said, Krosan Grip is more important because it can take out Animate Dead, as well as the Pithing Needles and/or Null Rods they are likely to bring in against you. The only card you really need to truly fear in this matchup is Tidespout Tyrant, as neither Maze nor Karakas can stop it from wrecking your board.)

Sneak and Show
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone

OmniTell
-1 Tabernacle, -3 Maze of Ith, -2 Ugin, -2 All Is Dust, -3 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Glacial Chasm
+4 Sphere of Safety, +4 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Oblivion Stone, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: This is one of the worst possible matchups. Game 1 is almost unwinnable unless you can drop Ulamog (blowing up a land) or Emrakul on turn 3 or 4. And it's still pretty bad after board.)

Lands
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 Maze of Ith, -2 All Is Dust
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: This is one of the worst matchups, although it has actually improved since they started playing Dark Depths, since you can use your own Thespian's Stage to copy their Depths. Concede immediately if they establish a recurring Wasteland lock. Time is very much a factor. Postboard, Surgical is there for Loam and/or Wasteland. Pithing Needle priorities are Wasteland --> Engineered Explosives --> Ghost Quarter. I leave in one Maze for Marit Lage in case they've already destroyed our Karakas.)

Death & Taxes
-1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Exploration, -1 Karakas*
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone
(Note: This is the most difficult of the "fair" matchups, especially because the only maindeck answers to Phyrexian Revoker are Ulamog and Ugin's +2. I keep going back and forth about cutting Karakas in this matchup. On one hand, it slims you down to 60 and you can usually copy theirs. On the other hand, you don't have access to Karakas unless they have one out.)

Infect
-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Ulamog, -2 Ugin, -2 All Is Dust, -1 Tabernacle
+3 Krosan Grip, +3 Sphere of Resistance* (on play) / Mindbreak Trap (on draw)

MUD
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -2 All Is Dust, -1 Ugin
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone

Hopefully this gives you more a sense of what the board is trying to do. One of the main things to remember is that Exploration is an easy cut in matchups where speed isn't as important as what you need to bring in. Ulamog isn't a pleasant cut, but he isn't as important when you don't need spot removal and speed is critical.

EDIT:

Jund
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Surgical Extraction
(Note: Surgical is there primarily for Wasteland. Loam + Wasteland is the primary thing to worry about after boarding.)

Shardless BUG
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Exploration
+1 Oblivion Stone, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Krosan Grip
(Note: Primary Surgical Extraction target is Force of Will, as resolving a board wipe is often game over for them. Krosan Grip takes out Sylvan Library, an artifact creature, and the occasional Null Rod.)

Grixis Delver/Pyromancer
-3 Pithing Needle
+3 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: I believe this matchup should play similar to the UR Delver lists, but with less burn and more discard. I'm not exactly sure on this one, as I haven't played against it very much or even seen many lists. Most of the lists that I found were Modern, which isn't that helpful.If someone could point me to some good lists to study, that would probably help.)

[Loxmatii]

TheBoozeCube,

Several questions for you about your list:

1) why dont you run Platinum Angel in Sb? It can solve a lot of problems

2) are you sure about only 2 Tops? I thought, that this is the main card in monoG posts, because you dont play brainstorms

3) why dont you run Dark Depth? You have explorations and 4 crops. This is a free win against a big part of current legacy

4) what do you think about Eureka in your deck?

[Mockingbird]

TheBoozeCube,

Several questions for you about your list:

1) why dont you run Platinum Angel in Sb? It can solve a lot of problems

2) are you sure about only 2 Tops? I thought, that this is the main card in monoG posts, because you dont play brainstorms

3) why dont you run Dark Depth? You have explorations and 4 crops. This is a free win against a big part of current legacy

4) what do you think about Eureka in your deck?

While I'm not Booze Cube and maybe can't answer the questions the best, here's the general breakdown:

1. An artifact creature with little protection can't do much fast enough against most decks you are thinking of siding her in to help. Platinum Angel is a good card, but not as good as it can sometimes be made out to be.

2. Sensei's Divining Top is NOT by any stretch a main card in Mono-G Post. In BoozeCube's version, it's Ancient Stirrings. In other versions (namely Snow-Post), it's Green Sun's Zenith.

3. Dark Depths does not tap for mana. He already runs 6 lands that don't tap for mana (1 of those eats another land) and nine that come into play tapped. There's only so much room for non-mana lands. In addition the Thespian Stage route sets the player back significantly by removing two lands for the board... and Lage is more fragile than Kozilek, which makes the investment not worth the effort at least in my book.

4. What's worth putting in with Eureka? There's Ugin, accelerating out a hand full of lands, and not much else. The majority of reason for playing the Eldrazi in this kind of deck is their cast triggers, and when I mention Ugin, I'd rather Ultimate him than cast Eureka.


There are cards I'm curious about opinions on: namely Karn Liberated, Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, and Oracle of Mul Daya. Oracle is an important one because I've noticed in my testing that there are times I top into three lands, which I really, really want to burn through faster.

[Ponders]

Storm
-3 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 All Is Dust, -2 Ugin, -3 Pithing Needle
+4 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Surgical Extraction +4 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: Tabernacle stays in to hedge against Empty the Warrens. This is a terrible matchup game 1, but very winnable postboard. Be patient and save Crop Rotation as a response to Past in Flames.)

Miracles
-3 Exploration, -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone, +1 Surgical Extraction

Elves
-3 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog
+4 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Oblivion Stone
(Note: I board out Maze because it's not going to save you from a Craterhoof stampede, and you usually have enough time to wipe their board if they're just swinging in with some Elves for a few turns.)

RUG/BUG Delver
-3 Exploration
+2 Surgical Extraction
(Note: This is more for when you are on the play. Surgical comes in primarily for Wasteland, with Force of Will as a secondary target. On the draw, the initial configuration is actually best. Exploration helps overcome tempo lost from their Wastelands and using early land drops for Maze. Bojuka Bog can come out if they don't appear to be playing Snapcaster or Nimble Mongoose.)

UR Delver
-1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Pithing Needle
+2 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Krosan Grip
(Note: You can bring in additional Spheres instead of Grips if they aren't playing Eidolon, although be careful of Null Rod if you do. Spheres are definitely at their best on the play.)

UWR Delver/UWx Stoneblade
-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Tabernacle, -3 Exploration
+1 Oblivion Stone, +3 Krosan Grip

Dredge
-3 Pithing Needle, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: One Maze is left to answer a large Grave Troll if they go that route. I'm still not sure about cutting them for Surgical in the non-manaless matchup, as they do well at dealing with Ichorids. In the manaless matchup, however, it might even be worth bringing in the full set of Spheres, as Sphere + Tabernacle is a straight-up hard lock if you can deal with Ichorid.)

Reanimator
-1 Tabernacle, -2 Ugin, -3 Pithing Needle
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: Pithing Needle is a difficult cut here, but their only target is Griselbrand, although granted it's a strong one. That said, Krosan Grip is more important because it can take out Animate Dead, as well as the Pithing Needles and/or Null Rods they are likely to bring in against you. The only card you really need to truly fear in this matchup is Tidespout Tyrant, as neither Maze nor Karakas can stop it from wrecking your board.)

Sneak and Show
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone

OmniTell
-1 Tabernacle, -3 Maze of Ith, -2 Ugin, -2 All Is Dust, -3 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Glacial Chasm
+4 Sphere of Safety, +4 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Oblivion Stone, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: This is one of the worst possible matchups. Game 1 is almost unwinnable unless you can drop Ulamog (blowing up a land) or Emrakul on turn 3 or 4. And it's still pretty bad after board.)

Lands
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 Maze of Ith, -2 All Is Dust
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: This is one of the worst matchups, although it has actually improved since they started playing Dark Depths, since you can use your own Thespian's Stage to copy their Depths. Concede immediately if they establish a recurring Wasteland lock. Time is very much a factor. Postboard, Surgical is there for Loam and/or Wasteland. Pithing Needle priorities are Wasteland --> Engineered Explosives --> Ghost Quarter. I leave in one Maze for Marit Lage in case they've already destroyed our Karakas.)

Death & Taxes
-1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Exploration, -1 Karakas*
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone
(Note: This is the most difficult of the "fair" matchups, especially because the only maindeck answers to Phyrexian Revoker are Ulamog and Ugin's +2. I keep going back and forth about cutting Karakas in this matchup. On one hand, it slims you down to 60 and you can usually copy theirs. On the other hand, you don't have access to Karakas unless they have one out.)

Infect
-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Ulamog, -2 Ugin, -2 All Is Dust, -1 Tabernacle
+3 Krosan Grip, +3 Sphere of Resistance* (on play) / Mindbreak Trap (on draw)

MUD
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -2 All Is Dust, -1 Ugin
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone

Hopefully this gives you more a sense of what the board is trying to do. One of the main things to remember is that Exploration is an easy cut in matchups where speed isn't as important as what you need to bring in. Ulamog isn't a pleasant cut, but he isn't as important when you don't need spot removal and speed is critical.


This is probably one of the best analyses I've seen on the topic of strategies, and how to. Thanks.

[maCHOOga]

I was in at a Con this weekend and had an opportunity to play legacy at a tournament nearby...it was one of the weirdest legacy events I've ever played in...There was a considerable amount of Grixis decks and combo?!

Round 1 I play against grixis delver. We go to 3 games with games 2 and 3 consisting of null rod and bloodmoon. I didn’t prepare for them in game 2, so I was locked out. I was able to chain primetimes to achieve victory game 3.

Round 2 there was a lot of discard and pondering from my opponent with UBRG lands. I was able to land my wurmcoil and win game 1. The only hint of what he was playing was the lotus petal he played the turn before I won. I then got stormed out games 2 and 3.

Round 3, I land an early primetime and gain enough life to prevent my storm opponent from winning. I then got stormed out games 2 and 3.

Round 4, between the ponders, cunning wishes and ancient tombs, I realize that I'm playing against Omnitell. He eventually show and tells with 1 card in hand, puts in omniscience as I put in "yolo...Emracool!" We had cool games 2 and 3, but eventually I loose.

Round 5 death and taxes, survive multiple attacks ending at 1 point each time and eventually achieve victory.

So the real question, how the heck did I beat 3 combo decks in game 1 and lost all 6 post boarded games??? Lol! I mean I play 3x maindeck FoWs, but still!

[TheBoozeCube]

TheBoozeCube,

Several questions for you about your list:

1) why dont you run Platinum Angel in Sb? It can solve a lot of problems

2) are you sure about only 2 Tops? I thought, that this is the main card in monoG posts, because you dont play brainstorms

3) why dont you run Dark Depth? You have explorations and 4 crops. This is a free win against a big part of current legacy

4) what do you think about Eureka in your deck?

Mockingbird basically nailed it. But I'll elaborate a bit more.

1) Platinum Angel is too fragile for the cost. Also, the only matchups where it really seems better than just tutoring up Chasm are combo decks that don't deal damage - namely, Storm and High Tide. And I've already got 10 very efficient cards to bring in for those.

2) I almost never want to see more than one Top in a game. Ancient Stirrings is my functional equivalent to Brainstorm. And in the context of my build, which is about 80% colorless, I'd say it's probably even more powerful than Brainstorm because it lets you see 5 cards instead of 3. Ancient Stirrings also doesn't require you to have a shuffle effect to maximize value, which is another downside for relying more heavily on Top. I've considered going up to 3x Top, but I don't know what I'd cut to make room for it.

3) Marit Lage is pretty fragile in a format with Karakas, StP, Liliana, and Jace. I don't want to spend two tutors for a combo that costs me two lands when I could just use those tutors for Cloudposts and/or Eye of Ugin. And "hardcasting" Marit Lage seems ineffecient for 30 mana when I can tutor and cast Emrakul for just 20.

4) I don't own any Eurekas, so I'd never really thought about it before. I don't think it would be a good fit for my build though. I only run a total of 6 threats -- 4x Eldrazi and 2x Ugin -- so using it as a virtual mana source for those seems sketchy, as I'd have to have one in hand. Using it to drop lands also seems inefficient, as I'd have to already have 4 lands (or 3 with a Candle) in play -- at that point, I might as well just play Manabond and dump them all on T1. Also, having double green mana early can be inconsistent for this deck, as green is really more of a splash. Also, you don't get the casting triggers, which is a big deal with Kozilek, who is already fragile but relatively cheap to cast and one of your best sources of card advantage.

[TheBoozeCube]

There are cards I'm curious about opinions on: namely Karn Liberated, Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, and Oracle of Mul Daya. Oracle is an important one because I've noticed in my testing that there are times I top into three lands, which I really, really want to burn through faster.

Karn Liberated -- It's not that great in my build. At 7, I'd usually rather just wipe the board with All Is Dust than Karn as spot removal. And the matchups where he is at his best are midrange/control matchups that are already very favorable. The only matchup where I'd much rather have Karn than All Is Dust is MUD, for obvious reasons.

Sundering Titan -- I used to run him, and he's definitely on the shortlist of cards that I could see bringing in from the bench. The only reason I'm not playing him now is that I don't have room. I've considered swapping him for the second Kozilek, but I think that the casting trigger is much better in a vacuum, as you always get value (unless they have a Stifle, which would screw Titan anyway). Still, I'm very open to slotting him in, especially in the right meta. But I play against too many decks where he's not as strong -- D&T, Painter, OmniTell, Elves, MUD -- to give him another shot yet.

Wurmcoil Engine -- I've tried it out, but it seriously underperformed. I almost never want to tutor for it with the Eye, since for 2 more mana you get Kozilek. And the lifegain isn't as reliable as I expected, since you have to actually attack or block with it first.

Oracle of Mul Daya -- Obviously great in a GSZ build where you can run it as a 1-2x. I'd love to fit it in, but it's so fragile and not findable with Ancient Stirrings.

[TheBoozeCube]

I'm thinking of swapping out a Forest in my build for a Riftstone Portal. The idea is to sac it to Crop Rotation, which then grabs a relevant land while turning Mazes, Glimmerposts, Karakas, and Tabernacle into extra green sources. Downside is that it's strictly worse than a basic Forest if I don't have an extra Crop Rotation to use it with. Thoughts?

[Mockingbird]

I'm thinking of swapping out a Forest in my build for a Riftstone Portal. The idea is to sac it to Crop Rotation, which then grabs a relevant land while turning Mazes, Glimmerposts, Karakas, and Tabernacle into extra green sources. Downside is that it's strictly worse than a basic Forest if I don't have an extra Crop Rotation to use it with. Thoughts?It's a strong option, and I think it could be a strong contender for the alternate to solving manaless lands: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Here's my breakdown:
Riftstone Portal
+On color
+synergy with Crop Rotation
+Wasteland bait
~You have another reason to play Life from the Loam
-Takes effort to get off, which can distract from winning
-Lackluster on board
-Eldrazi triggers disrupt it

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+Requires zero set-up
+Black Splash! (namely scenarios where Surgical Extraction doesn't need life to cast)
+If Sundering Titan makes its way back into the deck, then the synergy gives you Strip Mine.
-Doesn't give you the color you NEED
-can make Wasteland hurt almost as much as hitting a Cloudpost
-Corner cases where putting opponents on color happens

In Modern format, I played Sundering Titan and Urborg together in Tron for awhile, and it is a strong combination. I threw many opponents for a loop the first time I pointed out Urborg does let me kill that land (best one was Inkmoth Nexus), but it's a meta dependent environment as you say. I will say having my Eye of Ugin able to tap for ANY mana at all made a few differences I still remember, so I imagine that Urborg is worth testing should Riftstone Portal fall to lackluster results.

~~
One thing I have done while testing your deck is swap out a Forest for a Cavern of Souls. It's mostly for redundancy, but twice I've forced Kozilek to resolve. I'd have to do more testing to see how often I wish I had the Forest instead. But so far I can say it hasn't hurt, which is a start at least.

[prgmctan]

I've also been testing TheBoozeCube's list, but since I don't have 4 candles, I've replaced them with primeval titans and I've been pretty happy. I think you should try at least one titan.

[TheBoozeCube]

It's a strong option, and I think it could be a strong contender for the alternate to solving manaless lands: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Here's my breakdown:
Riftstone Portal
+On color
+synergy with Crop Rotation
+Wasteland bait
~You have another reason to play Life from the Loam
-Takes effort to get off, which can distract from winning
-Lackluster on board
-Eldrazi triggers disrupt it

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+Requires zero set-up
+Black Splash! (namely scenarios where Surgical Extraction doesn't need life to cast)
+If Sundering Titan makes its way back into the deck, then the synergy gives you Strip Mine.
-Doesn't give you the color you NEED
-can make Wasteland hurt almost as much as hitting a Cloudpost
-Corner cases where putting opponents on color happens

In Modern format, I played Sundering Titan and Urborg together in Tron for awhile, and it is a strong combination. I threw many opponents for a loop the first time I pointed out Urborg does let me kill that land (best one was Inkmoth Nexus), but it's a meta dependent environment as you say. I will say having my Eye of Ugin able to tap for ANY mana at all made a few differences I still remember, so I imagine that Urborg is worth testing should Riftstone Portal fall to lackluster results.

~~
One thing I have done while testing your deck is swap out a Forest for a Cavern of Souls. It's mostly for redundancy, but twice I've forced Kozilek to resolve. I'd have to do more testing to see how often I wish I had the Forest instead. But so far I can say it hasn't hurt, which is a start at least.

Good points. I forgot about the Eldrazi triggers. Riftstone is also pretty bad against DRS and Scooze. I'm still testing it out on MTGO, but I definitely won't bring it to a local yet.

I've thought about Urborg, but I've never really had much of a problem with the lands that don't tap for mana. I just figured I could get some extra value out of them, especially with on-color mana. It's an interesting thought though, and that interaction with Sundering Titan is pretty brilliant.

Cavern's another one I've considered, but never actually tested. If only it worked for tribal spells. (I used to run a Boseiju in my board for All Is Dust against Delver.) Getting Eldrazi countered just hasn't been a huge problem for me. I'd definitely rather they resolve, but I just can't justify using a tutor for Cavern when I'm already getting so much value off casting triggers. Sometimes, I'm even trying to bait a FoW with Kozilek to resolve an Ugin or All Is Dust. And even when he gets Forced, he's still a 6-for-1. But again, I've never tested it. What matchups/situations has Cavern made a real difference for you?

[Mockingbird]

Good points. I forgot about the Eldrazi triggers. Riftstone is also pretty bad against DRS and Scooze. I'm still testing it out on MTGO, but I definitely won't bring it to a local yet.

I've thought about Urborg, but I've never really had much of a problem with the lands that don't tap for mana. I just figured I could get some extra value out of them, especially with on-color mana. It's an interesting thought though, and that interaction with Sundering Titan is pretty brilliant.

I've had a few problems with a few early game plays because Maze and Tabernacle don't make mana. However, it's been more annoyance than a debilitating setback since their effects are so powerful that I generally stall with their effects until I find the mana. For the record, I play neither Urborg or Portal currently. However, tonight's testing makes me lean more towards Urborg before Riftstone if I were to try one because I noticed generally one Forest is enough to carry the deck through the entire game with how much of the deck is colorless, so i'd just want to go for the land that's easier to set up.


Cavern's another one I've considered, but never actually tested. If only it worked for tribal spells. (I used to run a Boseiju in my board for All Is Dust against Delver.) Getting Eldrazi countered just hasn't been a huge problem for me. I'd definitely rather they resolve, but I just can't justify using a tutor for Cavern when I'm already getting so much value off casting triggers. Sometimes, I'm even trying to bait a FoW with Kozilek to resolve an Ugin or All Is Dust. And even when he gets Forced, he's still a 6-for-1. But again, I've never tested it. What matchups/situations has Cavern made a real difference for you?

I generally haven't tutored for Cavern so far. If it shows up, bonus points. I could see seeking it to help out against heavy control or tempo/control like BUG, but Eldrazi being countered isn't much of a problem for me either. Cavern more of helps rake in "Oops, I win" moments that counterspells with no other answer behind them would otherwise take away.

The situation that is most fresh on my mind where Cavern was less of a trick and more of necessity is when I pushed a Kozilek through against Merfolk, which made a difference. And that situation is generally I envision where Cavern matters most: aggressive decks that save counters for crippling moments. I don't know what would have happened if Kozilek was countered, but I needed the body and annihilator to throw off pressure from the mounting merfolk army. And it worked. 6-for-1 is a lot less impressive when I was otherwise on a two turn clock, and aggro-control players that know what they're doing understand that.

[Loxmatii]

TheBoozeCube, i think that comparing strirrings and brainstorm is not very right. Brainstorm can help you to imrove your hand. For example you have heavy spells. and you need quick start. you play brainstorm. Bring good cards. Put two bad cards on top. Then fetch, or map, or crop etc

now i am testing your build quiet a lot. Very intersting and solid list. But for me a little bit strange several things. After more tests i will ask some questions

thks for a great job!:wink:

[maCHOOga]

It's a strong option, and I think it could be a strong contender for the alternate to solving manaless lands: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Here's my breakdown:
Riftstone Portal
+On color
+synergy with Crop Rotation
+Wasteland bait
~You have another reason to play Life from the Loam
-Takes effort to get off, which can distract from winning
-Lackluster on board
-Eldrazi triggers disrupt it

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+Requires zero set-up
+Black Splash! (namely scenarios where Surgical Extraction doesn't need life to cast)
+If Sundering Titan makes its way back into the deck, then the synergy gives you Strip Mine.
-Doesn't give you the color you NEED
-can make Wasteland hurt almost as much as hitting a Cloudpost


Also some more food for thought....

Blood moon and Urborg will make them produce Red only.
Blood moon and riftstone portal in the graveyard will still allow your lands to produce Green and White.

[Rock Lee]

Also some more food for thought....

Blood moon and Urborg will make them produce Red only.
Blood moon and riftstone portal in the graveyard will still allow your lands to produce Green and White.

Sadly blood moon and urborg isn't nearly as cool. Blood moon removes urborg's text, and while urborg is a simultaneously applying effect, the end result upon a player receiving priority is that Urborg is a mountain, and not all lands are swamps. This is hingant upon urborg relying on dependencies (if something still is in my text box, I do this) instead of timestamps (who came in first to determine who does what when [think humility + opalescence + humiliy/opalescence combos]), and not to be confused with multiple layer interactions like painter + humility or magus of the moon + humility both still applying their type changing effects.

LAYERS!

[TheBoozeCube]

TheBoozeCube, i think that comparing strirrings and brainstorm is not very right. Brainstorm can help you to imrove your hand. For example you have heavy spells. and you need quick start. you play brainstorm. Bring good cards. Put two bad cards on top. Then fetch, or map, or crop etc

now i am testing your build quiet a lot. Very intersting and solid list. But for me a little bit strange several things. After more tests i will ask some questions

thks for a great job!:wink:

True, you can't put bad cards back with Ancient Stirrings. My point was more that it plays a similar role to Brainstorm in the deck, although maybe Ponder is a better comparison. Ancient Stirrings also helps you in the situation you described, as it allows you to dig very quickly for land. In fact, the only land-light hands I am usually willing to keep are those with a green source and multiple Ancient Stirrings. I've won quite a few games where I've mulled to four because I had a Forest and two Ancient Stirrings.

But Ancient Stirrings gets better and better as the game progresses, as it allows you to dig very deeply for whatever threat or answer you need. It and Crop Rotation are the main reasons I'm playing green at all. Exploration is very powerful and explosive, but it's those 8 cards that make the deck work.


Also some more food for thought....

Blood moon and Urborg will make them produce Red only.
Blood moon and riftstone portal in the graveyard will still allow your lands to produce Green and White.

This is true, and definitely something to keep in mind for other builds. However, I'm not usually worried about producing Green through a Blood Moon. It's one of the reasons I play so many basic Forests. And Blood Moon already allows Mazes and Tabernacle tap for mana.

[prgmctan]

I think the mono-green list is a little land light, even with 29 lands. I'm experimenting with adding two forests instead of two candles. So far, the forests have worked out better around 75% of the time, and the other 25% it would have been better to have a candle.

[Barook]

I think the mono-green list is a little land light, even with 29 lands. I'm experimenting with adding two forests instead of two candles. So far, the forests have worked out better around 75% of the time, and the other 25% it would have been better to have a candle.
Why Forests, though? I haven't had trouble with green mana so far.

If I added anything, it would be rather a Cavern of Souls to push an Eldrazi through countermagic against fast blue decks.

[prgmctan]

Why Forests, though? I haven't had trouble with green mana so far.

If I added anything, it would be rather a Cavern of Souls to push through an Eldrazi through countermagic against fast blue decks.
I have actually had trouble getting green. I don't know if it's just been unlucky draws, but I seem to get either green cards or forests, rarely both at the same time.

[TimHarding]

Something I've toyed with in past Exploration Eldrazi attempts has been Simic Growth Chamber/Selesnya Sanctuary. Cheesy bounce lands, borrowed from Bloom Titan, really help abuse Exploration when the deck doesn't want 35+ lands/loam. They create one-card card advantage, that synergizes well with candle and exploration, when those two cards are often card-disadvantage. Additional goodies include more GP/Bog triggers, reset cavern/vesuva/Chasm, Crop respond to actually save the land that's dying rather than replacing it+mana ramp. Plus they're colored 2 tappers. The advantage adds up quick.

[Barook]

Something I've toyed with in past Exploration Eldrazi attempts has been Simic Growth Chamber/Selesnya Sanctuary. Cheesy bounce lands, borrowed from Bloom Titan, really help abuse Exploration when the deck doesn't want 35+ lands/loam. They create one-card card advantage, that synergizes well with candle and exploration, when those two cards are often card-disadvantage. Additional goodies include more GP/Bog triggers, reset cavern/vesuva/Chasm, Crop respond to actually save the land that's dying rather than replacing it+mana ramp. Plus they're colored 2 tappers. The advantage adds up quick.
Doesn't that also open you up to Wasteland even more if you don't have an Exploration in play?

[prgmctan]

Something I've toyed with in past Exploration Eldrazi attempts has been Simic Growth Chamber/Selesnya Sanctuary. Cheesy bounce lands, borrowed from Bloom Titan, really help abuse Exploration when the deck doesn't want 35+ lands/loam. They create one-card card advantage, that synergizes well with candle and exploration, when those two cards are often card-disadvantage. Additional goodies include more GP/Bog triggers, reset cavern/vesuva/Chasm, Crop respond to actually save the land that's dying rather than replacing it+mana ramp. Plus they're colored 2 tappers. The advantage adds up quick.
If you go that route, it might finally be worth playing some number of amulet of vigor. Do you think that's too much?

[TimHarding]

Doesn't that also open you up to Wasteland even more if you don't have an Exploration in play?

Yes, so running 10 of them would not be advised. But a couple as crop targets and some help to abuse exploration (and Azusa/Oracle) do some work. It's not revolutionary, but an option.


If you go that route, it might finally be worth playing some number of amulet of vigor. Do you think that's too much?

Amulet isn't worth a space in the UG control build, but who knows the potential if exploration and other mega ramp is being tested. However, at first glance it does appear a little too Goldfishy, since it relies on so many other cards to be relevant.

[TheBoozeCube]

Something I've toyed with in past Exploration Eldrazi attempts has been Simic Growth Chamber/Selesnya Sanctuary. Cheesy bounce lands, borrowed from Bloom Titan, really help abuse Exploration when the deck doesn't want 35+ lands/loam. They create one-card card advantage, that synergizes well with candle and exploration, when those two cards are often card-disadvantage. Additional goodies include more GP/Bog triggers, reset cavern/vesuva/Chasm, Crop respond to actually save the land that's dying rather than replacing it+mana ramp. Plus they're colored 2 tappers. The advantage adds up quick.

This is fascinating. I could definitely see a bounce land as a 1- or 2-of. I really like the idea of Cropping into one of these in response to Wasteland or using it to reset ETB lands instead of spending a Vesuva. I will definitely test this out!

[Mockingbird]

This is fascinating. I could definitely see a bounce land as a 1- or 2-of. I really like the idea of Cropping into one of these in response to Wasteland or using it to reset ETB lands instead of spending a Vesuva. I will definitely test this out!

One thing about playing Kangaroo (it's the name I've used for Titan Bloom since its inception) is that you get to play utility lands and cheat colors into the deck without having to play cards for them.

I did a quick search for utility lands whose activations that could be abused with bouncelands for color splash. The best, at least on paper, looks to be Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree because it could also be activated off Karakas, and it provides blockers. So it may be worth considering if there is room to consider.

[TheBoozeCube]

One thing about playing Kangaroo (it's the name I've used for Titan Bloom since its inception) is that you get to play utility lands and cheat colors into the deck without having to play cards for them.

I did a quick search for utility lands whose activations that could be abused with bouncelands for color splash. The best, at least on paper, looks to be Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree because it could also be activated off Karakas, and it provides blockers. So it may be worth considering if there is room to consider.

Alchemist's Refuge might be interesting too. I think that the main problem you'd start to run into is that these sort of lands would be too inconsistent, since they're useless without the relevant bounceland.

I've been testing a 1x Simic Growth Chamber online. It's still too early to tell, but it's showing definite promise. I especially like being able to rebuy Glimmerpost triggers.

[TheBoozeCube]

If you go that route, it might finally be worth playing some number of amulet of vigor. Do you think that's too much?

I think Candelabra should be sufficient. You're not getting that much ramp off a bounce land (at least, not in comparison to Cloudpost). Plus, you're still not playing as many lands per turn as Titan Bloom, even if you have all your Explorations in play at once.

[Xanthos]

Alchemist's Refuge might be interesting too. I think that the main problem you'd start to run into is that these sort of lands would be too inconsistent, since they're useless without the relevant bounceland.

I've been testing a 1x Simic Growth Chamber online. It's still too early to tell, but it's showing definite promise. I especially like being able to rebuy Glimmerpost triggers.

What land have you been swapping the chamber with? I always like to test new tech.

[TheBoozeCube]

What land have you been swapping the chamber with? I always like to test new tech.

Just a basic Forest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mockingbird]

Alchemist's Refuge might be interesting too. I think that the main problem you'd start to run into is that these sort of lands would be too inconsistent, since they're useless without the relevant bounceland.

I've been testing a 1x Simic Growth Chamber online. It's still too early to tell, but it's showing definite promise. I especially like being able to rebuy Glimmerpost triggers.

I would suggest Golgari Rot Farm if you're not playing any blue cards because there's a slightly increased chance where you might get to cast Surgical Extraction without paying two life.

Another card the Karoo lands can synergize with is Engineered Explosives, and that *should* be less of a strain than teching utility lands that require a Karoo to activative, although I am testing Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree right now to see how that works.

[J-Funk]

I recently had a terrible idea:

Currently testing Kiora.

I'll report back with findings.

[Barook]

Storm
-3 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 All Is Dust, -2 Ugin, -3 Pithing Needle
+4 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Surgical Extraction +4 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: Tabernacle stays in to hedge against Empty the Warrens. This is a terrible matchup game 1, but very winnable postboard. Be patient and save Crop Rotation as a response to Past in Flames.)

Miracles
-3 Exploration, -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone, +1 Surgical Extraction

Elves
-3 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog
+4 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Oblivion Stone
(Note: I board out Maze because it's not going to save you from a Craterhoof stampede, and you usually have enough time to wipe their board if they're just swinging in with some Elves for a few turns.)

RUG/BUG Delver
-3 Exploration
+2 Surgical Extraction
(Note: This is more for when you are on the play. Surgical comes in primarily for Wasteland, with Force of Will as a secondary target. On the draw, the initial configuration is actually best. Exploration helps overcome tempo lost from their Wastelands and using early land drops for Maze. Bojuka Bog can come out if they don't appear to be playing Snapcaster or Nimble Mongoose.)

UR Delver
-1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Pithing Needle
+2 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Krosan Grip
(Note: You can bring in additional Spheres instead of Grips if they aren't playing Eidolon, although be careful of Null Rod if you do. Spheres are definitely at their best on the play.)

UWR Delver/UWx Stoneblade
-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Tabernacle, -3 Exploration
+1 Oblivion Stone, +3 Krosan Grip

Dredge
-3 Pithing Needle, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Sphere of Resistance
(Note: One Maze is left to answer a large Grave Troll if they go that route. I'm still not sure about cutting them for Surgical in the non-manaless matchup, as they do well at dealing with Ichorids. In the manaless matchup, however, it might even be worth bringing in the full set of Spheres, as Sphere + Tabernacle is a straight-up hard lock if you can deal with Ichorid.)

Reanimator
-1 Tabernacle, -2 Ugin, -3 Pithing Needle
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: Pithing Needle is a difficult cut here, but their only target is Griselbrand, although granted it's a strong one. That said, Krosan Grip is more important because it can take out Animate Dead, as well as the Pithing Needles and/or Null Rods they are likely to bring in against you. The only card you really need to truly fear in this matchup is Tidespout Tyrant, as neither Maze nor Karakas can stop it from wrecking your board.)

Sneak and Show
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone

OmniTell
-1 Tabernacle, -3 Maze of Ith, -2 Ugin, -2 All Is Dust, -3 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Glacial Chasm
+4 Sphere of Safety, +4 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Oblivion Stone, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: This is one of the worst possible matchups. Game 1 is almost unwinnable unless you can drop Ulamog (blowing up a land) or Emrakul on turn 3 or 4. And it's still pretty bad after board.)

Lands
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 Maze of Ith, -2 All Is Dust
+2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Krosan Grip
(Note: This is one of the worst matchups, although it has actually improved since they started playing Dark Depths, since you can use your own Thespian's Stage to copy their Depths. Concede immediately if they establish a recurring Wasteland lock. Time is very much a factor. Postboard, Surgical is there for Loam and/or Wasteland. Pithing Needle priorities are Wasteland --> Engineered Explosives --> Ghost Quarter. I leave in one Maze for Marit Lage in case they've already destroyed our Karakas.)

Death & Taxes
-1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Exploration, -1 Karakas*
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone
(Note: This is the most difficult of the "fair" matchups, especially because the only maindeck answers to Phyrexian Revoker are Ulamog and Ugin's +2. I keep going back and forth about cutting Karakas in this matchup. On one hand, it slims you down to 60 and you can usually copy theirs. On the other hand, you don't have access to Karakas unless they have one out.)

Infect
-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Ulamog, -2 Ugin, -2 All Is Dust, -1 Tabernacle
+3 Krosan Grip, +3 Sphere of Resistance* (on play) / Mindbreak Trap (on draw)

MUD
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -2 All Is Dust, -1 Ugin
+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Oblivion Stone

Hopefully this gives you more a sense of what the board is trying to do. One of the main things to remember is that Exploration is an easy cut in matchups where speed isn't as important as what you need to bring in. Ulamog isn't a pleasant cut, but he isn't as important when you don't need spot removal and speed is critical.
Could you please edit the post with the Jund, Grixis Delver/Pyromancer and Shardless BUG match-ups? I do appreciate the guide alot.

That said, finished my first daily with the deck. Went 2-2, could have won at least one game in each match I lost (Jund and Grixis Pyromancer) because of my inexperience. Looking back, I could have won with better lines (and partly less shitty draws). It's pretty hard to play correctly (hence my misplays) with the numerous lines the deck offers, but it feels very rewarding. I'm still impressed by the sheer raw power the deck offers. I like how you don't have to rely on double :g: for hardcast Titan as you ramp straight into business instead.

Edit: Another thing I noticed in testing is the low number of green sources. How do you feel about it? From a mathematical point, the deck would need at least 10 green sources (instead of the 8 it runs now) to run smooth. Sure, Expedition Map helps, but that seems kinda like a waste.

[Mockingbird]

Edit: Another thing I noticed in testing is the low number of green sources. How do you feel about it? From a mathematical point, the deck would need at least 10 green sources (instead of the 8 it runs now) to run smooth. Sure, Expedition Map helps, but that seems kinda like a waste.

One thing that helps those odds is how long the deck can hold out on colorless alone. The deck can run a long time without green, especially with an early game Maze or Tabernacle (yes, I've done games where I had to lean heavily on them in early game and still limped out with a win). That being said, I also know where running a lot of green mana comes in handy because either A, I had to debate and often did mulligan hands with green spells and no green mana or B, kept a hand that operates on colorless only to draw into green spell after green spell (that happened once). I run 7 green sources (including the current trending miser Karoo land) and I feel comfortable with that myself.

[prgmctan]

Could you please edit the post with the Jund, Grixis Delver/Pyromancer and Shardless BUG match-ups? I do appreciate the guide alot.

That said, finished my first daily with the deck. Went 2-2, could have won at least one game in each match I lost (Jund and Grixis Pyromancer) because of my inexperience. Looking back, I could have won with better lines (and partly less shitty draws). It's pretty hard to play correctly (hence my misplays) with the numerous lines the deck offers, but it feels very rewarding. I'm still impressed by the sheer raw power the deck offers. I like how you don't have to rely on double :g: for hardcast Titan as you ramp straight into business instead.

Edit: Another thing I noticed in testing is the low number of green sources. How do you feel about it? From a mathematical point, the deck would need at least 10 green sources (instead of the 8 it runs now) to run smooth. Sure, Expedition Map helps, but that seems kinda like a waste.
I've been testing with -2 candles and +2 forests.

[TheBoozeCube]

Could you please edit the post with the Jund, Grixis Delver/Pyromancer and Shardless BUG match-ups? I do appreciate the guide alot.

That said, finished my first daily with the deck. Went 2-2, could have won at least one game in each match I lost (Jund and Grixis Pyromancer) because of my inexperience. Looking back, I could have won with better lines (and partly less shitty draws). It's pretty hard to play correctly (hence my misplays) with the numerous lines the deck offers, but it feels very rewarding. I'm still impressed by the sheer raw power the deck offers. I like how you don't have to rely on double :g: for hardcast Titan as you ramp straight into business instead.

Edit: Another thing I noticed in testing is the low number of green sources. How do you feel about it? From a mathematical point, the deck would need at least 10 green sources (instead of the 8 it runs now) to run smooth. Sure, Expedition Map helps, but that seems kinda like a waste.

I added those matchups. I'm not really sure about Grixis Delver though, as I have not had much opportunity to play against it.

I'm glad that you're enjoying the deck. It definitely rewards practice. I've been playing something very close to this list for over three years, and I'm still discovering new lines.

As far as green mana goes, here's my reasoning: All of the maindeck green spells are, at their core, just support for the colorless lands. Every Forest you play after the first has drastically diminishing value, as those are land drops you could be spending developing the mana you really need to cast your business spells or that you could be spending to answer your opponent's threats. Consequently, every Forest you draw after the first has diminished value as well, as the deck can't shuffle them away with Brainstorm. Additional Forests also clog your five from Ancient Stirrings. So I see the Forest count as something analagous to the land count in RUG Delver - you run a bit light in order to draw more gas.

[into_play]

A Post list made top 8 at SCG Providence!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83398

Very cool list. It's heavy on the green mana with no Maps. Lots of Exploration effects. I wonder how easy it was for him to resolve a Natural Order?

That Omnitell meta is brutal though.

[Postman]

A Post list made top 8 at SCG Providence!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83398

Very cool list. It's heavy on the green mana with no Maps. Lots of Exploration effects. I wonder how easy it was for him to resolve a Natural Order?

That Omnitell meta is brutal though.
Talking of the Omnitell - MU: any ideas on how to fight? Will try Rock Lee's idea of Seal of Primordium, but that won't be enough... MUD uses Trinisphere, Reanimator Iona, GSZ based decks Teeg. Are there more hate-cards?

[Drixx]

in my experience trinispheres are the best to show and tell agains omni. you have at least two additional turns do something .. creatures could be trickbinded or charmed without mana detainment .. counters are bad because of grid and boseju and they have obviously more counterspells than you ..

[Loxmatii]

Postman, Teeg cant stop omni =( they cast show, then wish, then call, then emracul. Tegg will watch this movie without any chances to stop

i wonder, how that guy from SCG could veat Omni. He has 0 cards against omni in main. And one card in sb

[Kael]

Any of you guys see the Junk Post variant with Knights and Deathrites on camera in Kyoto? It looked pretty close to this list, might've even been the same guy:

http://www.bigmagic.net/gpkobe2014/coverage/026.html?hc_location=ufi (6th place list)

Seems like an interesting take on the archetype, if nothing else.

[maCHOOga]

Postman, Teeg cant stop omni =( they cast show, then wish, then call, then emracul. Tegg will watch this movie without any chances to stop

i wonder, how that guy from SCG could veat Omni. He has 0 cards against omni in main. And one card in sb

I got $5 on dodging it! Lol.

Trinisphere has been hit or miss against Omni-tell. I've tried to hard cast it and they've countered it. I've sandbagged it to put in as a resolved show and tell and they have enough mana to win through it. Venser or Clique are also decent against Omni-tell. It requires them to use a cunning wish for the trickbind in their sideboard.

If your monogreen...resolve Choke & hope for the best?

[Postman]

Postman, Teeg cant stop omni =( they cast show, then wish, then call, then emracul. Tegg will watch this movie without any chances to stop

i wonder, how that guy from SCG could veat Omni. He has 0 cards against omni in main. And one card in sb
Got me! :-/ It only prevents EtI from being cast... Guess I will give Trinisphere a try, and maybe.... Iona in the Sideboard as well ;-(

[Mockingbird]

Any of you guys see the Junk Post variant with Knights and Deathrites on camera in Kyoto? It looked pretty close to this list, might've even been the same guy:

http://www.bigmagic.net/gpkobe2014/coverage/026.html?hc_location=ufi (6th place list)

Seems like an interesting take on the archetype, if nothing else.

//Lands
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
3 Vesuva
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Glimmerpost
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
4 Cloudpost

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
4 Explore

//Sideboard
3 Natural Order
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Terastodon
1 Path to Exile

Eh, while the list doesn't exactly appeal to me personally, I can see the appeal to other players and the performance it could put out. It reminds me though of the days when players teched Nic Fit strategies with Cloudpost, only with Junk now.


Actually, what interests me is that non-Blue Post had a showing this weekend, and I am surprised Explore has a strong showing in both lists reported here this morning. It's been a long time since I played Explore in a competitive setting (I tested in Modern with RG Tron back after RG Tron was in development following Cloudpost's ban from that format), so the thought that it may have new life intrigues me because it has sentimental value from when I played Standard.

[Postman]

//Lands
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
3 Vesuva
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Glimmerpost
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
4 Cloudpost

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
4 Explore

//Sideboard
3 Natural Order
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Terastodon
1 Path to Exile

Eh, while the list doesn't exactly appeal to me personally, I can see the appeal to other players and the performance it could put out. It reminds me though of the days when players teched Nic Fit strategies with Cloudpost, only with Junk now.


Actually, what interests me is that non-Blue Post had a showing this weekend, and I am surprised Explore has a strong showing in both lists reported here this morning. It's been a long time since I played Explore in a competitive setting (I tested in Modern with RG Tron back after RG Tron was in development following Cloudpost's ban from that format), so the thought that it may have new life intrigues me because it has sentimental value from when I played Standard.
I tried 2 Explore a few weeks ago. For me it's similar to Exploration: nice in the first 3 turns, but terrible in mid- or lategame as a topdeck. But those are my personal thoughts and I'm still on the UG build...

[TheBoozeCube]

in my experience trinispheres are the best to show and tell agains omni. you have at least two additional turns do something .. creatures could be trickbinded or charmed without mana detainment .. counters are bad because of grid and boseju and they have obviously more counterspells than you ..

I think Sphere of Resistance is better than Trinisphere here. It plays the same role, but you can play it more proactively on T2, often slowing them down significantly while they're still trying to sculpt a hand.

[TheBoozeCube]

//Lands
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
3 Vesuva
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Glimmerpost
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
4 Cloudpost

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
4 Explore

//Sideboard
3 Natural Order
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Terastodon
1 Path to Exile

Eh, while the list doesn't exactly appeal to me personally, I can see the appeal to other players and the performance it could put out. It reminds me though of the days when players teched Nic Fit strategies with Cloudpost, only with Junk now.


Actually, what interests me is that non-Blue Post had a showing this weekend, and I am surprised Explore has a strong showing in both lists reported here this morning. It's been a long time since I played Explore in a competitive setting (I tested in Modern with RG Tron back after RG Tron was in development following Cloudpost's ban from that format), so the thought that it may have new life intrigues me because it has sentimental value from when I played Standard.

I used to play quite a bit with Explore in Post. It's not bad. It's a much better late-game topdeck than Exploration because it cycles.

[Mockingbird]

I think Sphere of Resistance is better than Trinisphere here. It plays the same role, but you can play it more proactively on T2, often slowing them down significantly while they're still trying to sculpt a hand.

I've play Trinisphere in MUD-Post, and generally anything that you play before their attempt to resolve Show and Tell will either not matter or get countered. The best time to go for Trinisphere in my experience is to drop it in off their Show and Tell. That's more of the hail mary though. The problem with Sphere of Resistance is that it buys time, but Omni players can still go for Emrakul to win.

[TheBoozeCube]

I've play Trinisphere in MUD-Post, and generally anything that you play before their attempt to resolve Show and Tell will either not matter or get countered. The best time to go for Trinisphere in my experience is to drop it in off their Show and Tell. That's more of the hail mary though. The problem with Sphere of Resistance is that it buys time, but Omni players can still go for Emrakul to win.

This is all too true. That's precisely what happened to me in g3 at an IQ that I played in about a month ago. But I think the Omniscience plan is a lot more frightening, since you have the possibility of Karakas against Emrakul.

The primary reason I play Sphere of Resistance over Trinisphere, however, is that I can drop it on T2 vs Storm or Elves, where a T3 Trinisphere is often too slow.

[mykatdied]

@Loxmatii - In that match up if they don't have the follow up that turn for their omniscience, I do have an ulamog and emrakul main which can both answer an omniscience. Dropping in a primeval titan can usually get me the mana to where I need to be if they have to dig still.

Honestly I had not put much thought into that match up. It only recently became popular in the area within the last couple weeks. My attempt at beating it now is going to include 3 Krosan Grip in the board as well as 1 Gaddock teeg. With the list as is, combo is a tough match up, those 2 cards should help to shore them up. I am actually good friends with Daniel Hall and I plan to play test some ideas with him to find a better answer to omnitell without having to sacrifice my own game plan.

As for idea on teeg for the omnitell match up, he shuts off enter the infinite, dig through time and force which can all be relevant to surviving the few turns that you need to survive.

@Into_Play - Natural order was impressively easy to resolve, especially against miracles. Many people were confused about the dryad arbor, or the natural order (whichever they saw first). Then they got hit by 4 mana into a primeval titan. It was delightful casting natural order. Even nicer when you have ramped off an oracle for the turn and you decide that you want to upgrade it to a titan.

@maCHOOga - At first I had not realized I would have to plan for it because I haven't really seen much of it. Once at the event checking around the tables, I crossed my fingers and hoped to dodge it all day and I did. Had I not lost round 1 of top 8 I would have been forced to play against it.

[Mockingbird]

A Post list made top 8 at SCG Providence!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83398

Very cool list. It's heavy on the green mana with no Maps. Lots of Exploration effects. I wonder how easy it was for him to resolve a Natural Order?

That Omnitell meta is brutal though.


@Loxmatii - In that match up if they don't have the follow up that turn for their omniscience, I do have an ulamog and emrakul main which can both answer an omniscience. Dropping in a primeval titan can usually get me the mana to where I need to be if they have to dig still.

Honestly I had not put much thought into that match up. It only recently became popular in the area within the last couple weeks. My attempt at beating it now is going to include 3 Krosan Grip in the board as well as 1 Gaddock teeg. With the list as is, combo is a tough match up, those 2 cards should help to shore them up. I am actually good friends with Daniel Hall and I plan to play test some ideas with him to find a better answer to omnitell without having to sacrifice my own game plan.

As for idea on teeg for the omnitell match up, he shuts off enter the infinite, dig through time and force which can all be relevant to surviving the few turns that you need to survive.

@Into_Play - Natural order was impressively easy to resolve, especially against miracles. Many people were confused about the dryad arbor, or the natural order (whichever they saw first). Then they got hit by 4 mana into a primeval titan. It was delightful casting natural order. Even nicer when you have ramped off an oracle for the turn and you decide that you want to upgrade it to a titan.

@maCHOOga - At first I had not realized I would have to plan for it because I haven't really seen much of it. Once at the event checking around the tables, I crossed my fingers and hoped to dodge it all day and I did. Had I not lost round 1 of top 8 I would have been forced to play against it.
I'm glad you decided to take me up on my invite to join the thread's conversion.

One point I would like to add to is that my personal testing of you deck has shown me in the power of Natural Order off Dryad Arbor is how easy it is to set up with fetch lands. It's especially useful when opponents see the Natural Order off a spell and no creatures and forget Fetchlands. One thing I am curious about is what lead you away from Green Sun's Zenith and toward Natural Order

My testing has been mostly positive (reiterate a point we discussed earlier, I agree that Krosan Grip is a good idea given that I just had to power through Blood Moon against Big Red).

[mykatdied]

I'm glad you decided to take me up on my invite to join the thread's conversion.

One point I would like to add to is that my personal testing of you deck has shown me in the power of Natural Order off Dryad Arbor is how easy it is to set up with fetch lands. It's especially useful when opponents see the Natural Order off a spell and no creatures and forget Fetchlands. One thing I am curious about is what lead you away from Green Sun's Zenith and toward Natural Order

My testing has been mostly positive (reiterate a point we discussed earlier, I agree that Krosan Grip is a good idea given that I just had to power through Blood Moon against Big Red).

I shy away from GSZ because I want to focus on ramp. Natural order is a 3 of in the 75 because it's simple to cast at 4 mana and because it gets prime time, it ramps us into posts. Whereas GSZ would be a 7 mana spell for prime time, which can be tough depending on what our opponent is doing to disrupt our mana, granted the single green can be easier to do at times. GSZ can ramp us turn 1, but it then competes for our 1 slot which is pretty full as is. Depending on our hand stirrings turn 1 is usually the best play, aside from needle on wasteland obviously.

Grip is a definite answer to omniscience for at least a turn depending on what they are casting off it. Which is why I like it. It also gives us some extra play against moon which I struggled with in top 8. I surprisingly beat it twice before that without much issue. Oracle into prime time just gets there I guess...

Explore has been amazing to anyone that was curious. Even later in the game it can be the cheap spell that we use to cantrip into our bigger plays like eldrazi, titan or ugin in my list.

on that note I highly suggest ugin to anyone who has not tested it. I have yet to find a fair deck that can really beat that card. DnT does have revoker, but they have to shut down top and candel as well so it gives us an extra target they just can't really handle otherwise.

[TheBoozeCube]

Grip is a definite answer to omniscience for at least a turn depending on what they are casting off it.

Grip isn't reliable, in my experience. A smart OmniTell player will expect it and play around it by holding priority after S&T resolves, and casting a second Omniscience. I still board Grip in, but it's not great here.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hopo]

Grip isn't reliable, in my experience. A smart OmniTell player will expect it and play around it by holding priority after S&T resolves, and casting a second Omniscience. I still board Grip in, but it's not great here.


In this case the opponent needs to be smart enough to lucksack into two Omnisciences. Sometimes Lady Smartness makes it happen but usually not.

[TheBoozeCube]

In this case the opponent needs to be smart enough to lucksack into two Omnisciences. Sometimes Lady Smartness makes it happen but usually not.

It's usually less a matter of luck than a matter of them sculpting their hand. In a deck that plays as many cantrips as they do, it's not that hard. I've had experienced OmniTell pilots who know the matchup do it to me too many times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TimHarding]

http://magic.wizards.com.clonezone.link/mana_pool_mana_burn_changes

..... They brought back mana burn.

[mykatdied]

http://magic.wizards.com.clonezone.link/mana_pool_mana_burn_changes

..... They brought back mana burn.

Ehh, we are running top so we have a decent mana sink regardless.

EDIT: If it was to really happen. The link is not actually legit.

[MtgVector]

Ehh, we are running top so we have a decent mana sink regardless.

EDIT: If it was to really happen. The link is not actually legit.

Confirmed fake, luckily for us.

[Klobster]

http://magic.wizards.com.clonezone.link/mana_pool_mana_burn_changes

..... They brought back mana burn.

think of how often you tap a cloudpost for two or three to play an expedition map. But you want to leave a colored source open and/or want to activate map end of opponents turn. In a good amount of games you will take 1-3 life loss over this.

[Mockingbird]

http://magic.wizards.com.clonezone.link/mana_pool_mana_burn_changes

..... They brought back mana burn.

DO NOT CLICK that link!

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/117279105938/wizardsmagic-some-of-you-may-have-seen-a-link

It's a scam page.

[moseby]

Quick question.

I am probably going to do at least 1 legacy side event at GP Toronto this weekend. I am just trying to figure out which deck to run, either a mono G post, or junk nic fic. So in a vacuum which deck do you pick as I do not live in Toronto, so the meta will be entirely alien to me.

Thanks

[Postman]

IMO Post is the better deck. If you are used to Nic Fit, play it. If not, play Post.

[mykatdied]

Quick question.

I am probably going to do at least 1 legacy side event at GP Toronto this weekend. I am just trying to figure out which deck to run, either a mono G post, or junk nic fic. So in a vacuum which deck do you pick as I do not live in Toronto, so the meta will be entirely alien to me.

Thanks

I would honestly say that post is better positioned currently because of miracles In my area. Then again we have a lot of omnitell here as well And that match up isn't ideal to say the least. Nic fit at least has the hand disruption to help shut them down a bit.

[nodahero]

You need to roll the dice and guess what you will see more of, combo or control... if it is combo I strongly suggest Nic Fit; if you are guessing control than go with Post.

[mykatdied]

I personally still choose post. I love me some nic fit, but I just can't bring myself to sleeve it up, even over pox. Post does have some game against combo decks and just right out beats fair decks most of the time.

[Rock Lee]

Been rocking local events with a standstill version. Split a finals with omni (I lose the fun game we played), got 3rd, and 3 first place showings with this version or 3-4 cards different. (maindeck fluster vs sb) and the sideboard is currently 3-4 combo hate cards in flux.


// Lands
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
3 [ARE] Island (4)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [LG] In the Eye of Chaos
SB: 1 [7E] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium


Debatable slots are the fow for expedition mapx3 and extra venserx1. Also the sideboard lab/emprion are the big "if's" of the side.

[Postman]

Been rocking local events with a standstill version. Split a finals with omni (I lose the fun game we played), got 3rd, and 3 first place showings with this version or 3-4 cards different. (maindeck fluster vs sb) and the sideboard is currently 3-4 combo hate cards in flux.


// Lands
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
3 [ARE] Island (4)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [LG] In the Eye of Chaos
SB: 1 [7E] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium


Debatable slots are the fow for expedition mapx3 and extra venserx1. Also the sideboard lab/emprion are the big "if's" of the side.
Looks interesting... Can you say a few words about Standstill, please? First thought was like "Delver Turn 1, dead card" :-/

[AppendixG]

I've been running a vaguely similar list online except using Mystic Remora instead of Standstill. I like it because, without Expedition Map, there are a lot of times where we're not doing whole lot with our mana before turn 3 or 4.

Typically, I run 4 main and side them out when I'm not on the play. It's worked pretty well, since with Remora in play, if you're making land drops, you'll usually have at least 1 mana open to Crop Rotation or Swan Song and, if they want to counter or counter back, you'll get to draw a card.

If you can drop a Remora on turn 1, it typically plays out like a one-sided Standstill at best or a one-sided Howling Mine at worst.

I really like the In the Eye of Chaos and Arcane Laboratory in the sideboard, though. I'm going to have to try those out.

[maCHOOga]

So why is expedition map bad/suboptimal all of a sudden? Is it just the fact that it can be really slow?

I'm intrigued and will have to try standstill. Turn one top, turn two standstill seems to be the bee's knees on the play. It doesn't seem that good if your opponent gets ahead on board though.

Also, what is the reasoning for playing submerge? What is giving you trouble that warrants inclusion of this card?

[mykatdied]

what is the reasoning for playing submerge? What is giving you trouble that warrants inclusion of this card?

Quick clocking green creatures or tasigur in a deck like bug would be the ice cream, the fact that it can be free seems like the whipped cream, and the fact that it can "fog" and "time walk" an attack from said large creature seems like a cherry. That is a delicious sundae that submerge has created in defense of the deck.

[Rock Lee]

So why is expedition map bad/suboptimal all of a sudden? Is it just the fact that it can be really slow?

I'm intrigued and will have to try standstill. Turn one top, turn two standstill seems to be the bee's knees on the play. It doesn't seem that good if your opponent gets ahead on board though.

Also, what is the reasoning for playing submerge? What is giving you trouble that warrants inclusion of this card?

The not-so-hidden reason why standstill has been good in testing has been repeal. All the current decks atm are reliant on pyromancer, drs, or rarely delver, which gain advantage out of playing cantrips every turn, which standstill takes advantage of. Once they stop playing spells and try to ride out the standstill, they're playing standard and can easily be clocked.

Submerge is there because BUG and Infect can still be problematic, and are both decks that can kill you either through breaking standstills or by playing one threat and winning through it. So an eot submerge on said one-threat into standstill can force them into required playing into standstill.

[iamajellydonut]

The not-so-hidden reason why standstill has been good in testing has been repeal. All the current decks atm are reliant on pyromancer, drs, or rarely delver, which gain advantage out of playing cantrips every turn, which standstill takes advantage of. Once they stop playing spells and try to ride out the standstill, they're playing standard and can easily be clocked.

That sounds like opponents just not understanding how Standstill works.

[Rock Lee]

That sounds like opponents just not understanding how Standstill works.

Obvious troll is obvious.

None of what I indicated was bad player standstill interactions, which is not choosing "not care and break standstill" or "outlast and eot-break or make them break standstill," but rather going halfway between both. This is quite obvious, and has been for the entire history of competitive standstill play.

[MGB]

Wait, what? Standstill without Mishra's Factory or Wasteland?

I've been playing Legacy a long time and consider myself to have "seen it all", but this one needs a little bit more explaining. Especially the part about casting Standstill with no way to pressure the opponent while under said Standstill.

[TimHarding]

Wait, what? Standstill without Mishra's Factory or Wasteland?

I've been playing Legacy a long time and consider myself to have "seen it all", but this one needs a little bit more explaining. Especially the part about casting Standstill with no way to pressure the opponent while under said Standstill.

Youre way off: Any turn where you hit a land drop without them progressing their board is a Time Walk, especially in post. This is perfectly in line with the goal of the deck: slow them down and bust through.

Standstill wait wait wait > Cavern > Titan through standstill and their hand

Standstill wait wait wait wait wait > Emrakul through standstill and their hand

I'd love for a player to stick delver and then not play any spells for upwards of 6 turns while I comfortably drop posts. You aren't competing with their full grip, you ignore it.

Now, I think maps would go well with standstill. Maybe a few more standstill synergies for good measure. Particularly sweepers. Sweet tech.

[maCHOOga]

...they're playing standard and can easily be clocked.

Thanks for the insight!

I was going to try it out tonight but my friends want to play standard instead lol. Irony much?

[Rock Lee]

Split the finals of weekly magic with a list very similar to this. Still unsure if the fatty-permanents (lab, in the eye, bane) should just be force of will or not.

// Lands
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [DPA] Island (1)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Creatures
3 [DIS] Tidespout Tyrant
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [7E] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [LG] In the Eye of Chaos
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [C13] Bane of Progress

[TheBoozeCube]

I've seen a number of lists running Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. I'd like to understand what role this plays in various matchups. I get that you can use it to mess with Infernal Tutor, but what else do you use it for? Having never played it, symmetrical card draw seems less than optimal, even on a land. Are there particular situations where this card does work that I'm just not seeing?

[AppendixG]

I've seen a number of lists running Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. Are there particular situations where this card does work that I'm just not seeing?

I've run into a few corner cases...

I once used it against a Miracles player after they tapped out to put (what I suspected to be) a Terminus on top of their library to counter a Primeval Titan.

I also used it against a Laboratory Maniac OmniTell build after they cast Enter the Infinite but before Maniac hit play. They had already used their Trickbind on a Venser and, apparently, had no other solution.

I've done similar stuff against Oops, All Spells but, really, half the deck can wreck Oops, All Spells.

I've found that the trick to getting Mikokoro to work consistently in the Storm matchup is to hold onto at least 2 Repeals or Vensers. If they suspect it's coming, they'll leave a Lion's Eye up to sac after Mikokoro, so you Repeal the untapped one first to either force a search for Lion's Eye or, if they sac it in response, then you Mikokoro them.

[iamajellydonut]

I've run into a few corner cases...

This is saucy as hell.

[maCHOOga]

I've found that the trick to getting Mikokoro to work consistently in the Storm matchup is to hold onto at least 2 Repeals or Vensers. If they suspect it's coming, they'll leave a Lion's Eye up to sac after Mikokoro, so you Repeal the untapped one first to either force a search for Lion's Eye or, if they sac it in response, then you Mikokoro them.

I'm amazed that you have lived long enough to actually cast Venser. When I play against storm, I'm usually dead by turn 3. Also, none if this spell shenanigans works if they are playing Xantid swarms.

I agree with BoozeCube, I'm not sold on it either. I like the aspect of having an additional mana sink in the deck but I'm never going to want to crop rotation for it...and there are scenarios where I really need to hit a colored mana source and draw it instead. It does seem pretty decent with standstill though!

[AppendixG]

I'm amazed that you have lived long enough to actually cast Venser. When I play against storm, I'm usually dead by turn 3. Also, none if this spell shenanigans works if they are playing Xantid swarms.

There are very few cards in this deck that will actually kill an opponent. And there are very few cards in the deck that will permanently disable an opponent, so I value cards based on how much time they can buy in certain match ups. Glacial Chasm versus Burn, for example, buys about three turns. Bojuka Bog versus Reanimator can buy you 1-3 turns. Mikokoro, in my experience, buys at least one turn versus Storm.

It's definitely not a lot, but it's something.

I think the biggest issue is cross-compatibility. Glacial Chasm is good against decks other than Burn. Same with Bojuka Bog. Mikokoro is almost exclusively useful in the Storm matchup, it doesn't have a lot of applicability anywhere else (barring the above, extremely rare cases). It's easily the narrowest "toolbox" land in the deck. So, if you don't have a lot of Storm in your meta, that's definitely a reason to cut it.

[Hencules]

Who else has been working with DTT? I haven't seen it in recently posted lists.

DTT has been absolutely amazing. It feels like having instant speed primeval titans. In fact, they fulfil a very similar role. Resolve it and get any combination of two awesome cards. I have yet to lose a game after resolving it. In games where you're behind it allows you to find the correct combination of disruption/lands/creatures to get back in the race. This is my current list:


4 Primeval Titan
2 Dig Through Time

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Show and Tell

4 Repeal
2 Moment’s Peace
3 Pithing Needle

4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Tropical Island

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls

[Rock Lee]

Went undefeated at another weekly magic event with this build. Matchups were Shardless BUG (2-1), Omnishow (2-0), Lands (2-0)

// Lands
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [DPA] Island (1)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

// Creatures
3 [DIS] Tidespout Tyrant
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [LG] In the Eye of Chaos
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will


Only sideboard work I would like to do is more cards to deal with infect. I would prefer 1 wasteland, 1 submerge, 1 moment's peace over 3 fow, but not sure if I can deal with no FOW anywhere when going to a large event, where things like belcher/oops will be present.

[Ancestral]

Went undefeated at another weekly magic event with this build. Matchups were Shardless BUG (2-1), Omnishow (2-0), Lands (2-0)

// Lands
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [DPA] Island (1)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [SOK] Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

// Creatures
3 [DIS] Tidespout Tyrant
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [LG] In the Eye of Chaos
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will


Only sideboard work I would like to do is more cards to deal with infect. I would prefer 1 wasteland, 1 submerge, 1 moment's peace over 3 fow, but not sure if I can deal with no FOW anywhere when going to a large event, where things like belcher/oops will be present.


congrtaz on the win. But how you manage to win agains omnitell? the matchup seems awfall :/ even with sideboarding

[Postman]

congrtaz on the win. But how you manage to win agains omnitell? the matchup seems awfall :/ even with sideboarding
I guess that's why there are 3 Tidespout Tyrant main. Omnitell needs S&T to put Omniscience into play. You put the Tyrant into play. They do something, you play any instant, bounce the Omnitell. They have nothing, you have a nice clock. But it's only guessing, never tried Tyrant so far

[Ancestral]

I guess that's why there are 3 Tidespout Tyrant main. Omnitell needs S&T to put Omniscience into play. You put the Tyrant into play. They do something, you play any instant, bounce the Omnitell. They have nothing, you have a nice clock. But it's only guessing, never tried Tyrant so far

well instants isn´t the thing in this deck, and that cenario i guess that would be not very likly.

But bringing the tyrant point, why there are 3 in main deck ? i hope rock lee can answer this questions ;)

[Rock Lee]

Tyrant is there exactly for that reason. Omni has to cast show and tell to win, I won my Game 1 against them by having Tyrant in hand with 3 instants, one being crop rotation for a mikokoro. He cast enter the infinite off a turn 3 show and tell'd omniscience, when I put in tyrant. I cast brainstorm (bouncing omni), he dug through time, I responded with crop rotation(bouncing omni), tutored up mikokoro and let his enter the dig through time, then enter the infinite resolve. He puts back one card, I untap and mikokoro us both to zero cards in his library, he draws for turn and loses.

The game 1 plan isn't amazing, but it still works. I've been working on getting more instants available for the plan. Current list is testing less/no repeals, but with moment's peaces and mazes combined.

[Ancestral]

Tyrant is there exactly for that reason. Omni has to cast show and tell to win, I won my Game 1 against them by having Tyrant in hand with 3 instants, one being crop rotation for a mikokoro. He cast enter the infinite off a turn 3 show and tell'd omniscience, when I put in tyrant. I cast brainstorm (bouncing omni), he dug through time, I responded with crop rotation(bouncing omni), tutored up mikokoro and let his enter the dig through time, then enter the infinite resolve. He puts back one card, I untap and mikokoro us both to zero cards in his library, he draws for turn and loses.

The game 1 plan isn't amazing, but it still works. I've been working on getting more instants available for the plan. Current list is testing less/no repeals, but with moment's peaces and mazes combined.

thanks for the answer. but omni tells i face don´t run EtI anymore, or dream halls, just the new build so they SnT into omniscience and then play emrakull, you can put tyrant but the priority remains in their side so he can play emrakull before boiuncing omniscience and that is GG. so i thin its just a marginal situation where tyrant can be good. other than this having tyrant in hand and instants and mana to play them in a short period isn´t a strenght of the deck so this senario seems a bit unlickly :/ but tyrant main deck has other really good pourpose on other matchups to deserve 3 (!!) slots main board ?

just trying to figure it out the options here since i don´t play this deck much (but i want too xD (but i play legacy for a long time now)) .

and how is standstill working for you ?

[AppendixG]

thanks for the answer. but omni tells i face don´t run EtI anymore, or dream halls, just the new build so they SnT into omniscience and then play emrakull, you can put tyrant but the priority remains in their side so he can play emrakull before boiuncing omniscience and that is GG.

You could always play another instant to bounce Emrakul, since Tyrant is a permanent and Emrakul only has protection from colored spells. You've also got Karakas to deal with Emrakul once he hits the field, so if one of your instants is a Crop Rotation you should grab that if you expect it.

[Ancestral]

You could always play another instant to bounce Emrakul, since Tyrant is a permanent and Emrakul only has protection from colored spells. You've also got Karakas to deal with Emrakul once he hits the field, so if one of your instants is a Crop Rotation you should grab that if you expect it.


doesn´t work, emmy gain him an extra turn, bounce him its just another turn and another , etc. can´t deal with that this way, thats why i m saying that tyrants doens´t seem to good in this matchup

[AppendixG]

doesn´t work, emmy gain him an extra turn, bounce him its just another turn and another , etc. can´t deal with that this way, thats why i m saying that tyrants doens´t seem to good in this matchup

Well, yeah, this is all assuming you bounced Omniscience, of course.

[Ancestral]

Well, yeah, this is all assuming you bounced Omniscience, of course.
thats already a lot of stuff xD and they have an extra turn either way

[TimHarding]

Call me old school but I still like Glen-Elendra Archmage as dedicated Omni hate. Krosan Grip too.

[Raystar]

Not sure I like Tyrant but the play is legit: you play Tyrant on their S&T, they dig, you rotate for Karakas bouncing Omni...even if they get another S&T they are still having to deal with Karakas and another possible bounce from Tyrant...